March 3, 2026 • 40 mins
Though he's a comedic actor, Kal has always felt like the label "comedian" was a sort of stolen valor. That is, until this past year, when he started opening for some of his stand-up friends. This week, Kal calls up Patton Oswalt, a legend in stand-up comedy, to get some advice about getting on stage, what's changed in the comedy world, what hasn't, and what's next.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Many would say that I have been a comedic actor
most of my entire life, and I guess also some
of my childhood thanks to a very well placed pelvic
thrust that I improvised during my eighth grade production of
The Whiz, I played the tin man. I think I've
talked about this before on the pod, and you're still welcome.
But look, whenever somebody refers to me as a comic,
(00:21):
it really feels like stolen valor, because to me, stand
up comedy is a whole different beast from acting, and
it's also something that I always wanted to try, but
honestly never had the balls to do until a few
months ago. So two of my very good friends, A
Lookmannon and Daniel Sloss, are both phenomenal stand up comedians.
They've toured all over the world, and separately they asked
(00:44):
me if I wanted to open for them, because they
knew that I have talked to me in game for
years about wanting to try stand up and I said
enthusiastically said yes to both of them. And then six
months go by and like three weeks before each of
their shows, which were supposed to happen in the same
in two week period. I called them both and I said,
I can't do it. I've done no work the last
six months. I cannot open for you. This is too terrifying.
(01:07):
And they both were like, okay, all right, well, if
you change your mind, call us back. And that night
I looked in the mirror as I was brushing my
teeth and I legitimately just thought to myself, you bitch,
if you're going to say no to this, don't ever
think or say out loud that you've always wanted to
try stand up, because if you're not going to do
it now, you're just never going.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
To do it.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
All of which is to say, the last few months,
having done stand up, having opened for both a Look
and Daniel, the excitement that I've experienced is sort of
like a high. And I have heard this before that
stand up comedy is compared to a high when things
go well. And also, having played a stoner in at
least one trilogy, I agree.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Speaking of which, the one way my comedy evolved it
became less about here's how cool I am, and more
about here's how human and flawed I am, and yet
I still exist.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Patton Oswalt is a legend in stand up You may
know him from his ten comedy specials, from his appearance
as Spencer on the King of Queen's or from his
voice acting as Remy in Pixar's Rat Tattooy. He has
won Grammys and Emmys.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
He's been doing.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Stand up for over three decades, which is why Patten
is the guy I want to talk to a selfishly
about everything comedy, and b I want him to help
me answer the question when, when comedy keeps reinventing itself,
what actually stays the same?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Here we Oh Again again, Agon again.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Hey, I'm Cal Penn and this is here We Go Again,
a show that takes today's trends and headlines.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
And asks why does history keep repeating itself? Here we go? Well,
hang on really quick, cow, So the show is called
(03:10):
here we Go Again? Yeah, And I kept been meaning
to answer, like the acceleration of the oh, we're doing
this again from history must be almost surreal for you
at this point, Like do you feel like, by by
doing this show, maybe you manifested this weird nightmare that
we're in right now that like it's almost like reality
(03:31):
when oh, Cow's doing a show about things coming back. Oh,
let's get something let's give him some material for this show.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Thankfully, we've so far, at least we've stayed largely away
from the dooman gloom cycle.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Oh good, Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Okay, Paton, I am.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I'm very excited to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
I've had a couple of friends on, but I have
not yet had anybody on this pod whose lap I
got to sit on when he was dressed as Santa
Claus in a mall, who I then smoked a lot
of with in a dark parking lot. And for those
who don't know, Patten was one of our co stars
in a very herald and Komark Christmas. He played the
mal Santa, but he's so much more than a pot
(04:10):
dealing mal Santa. So that's the intro. Thank you for
being here.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Thank you, and I'm glad to be hosted by the
first man. And this should be in your IMDb first
man to ever blow a three D puff of pot
smoke in cinema history. That's correct. I forgot about that. Yeah,
that's the shot in your in memorium clip. Well, the real.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Question that I was gonna I was gonna start with.
So the reason that I selfishly wanted to talk about
stand up with you is twofold one. I have admired
not just your stand up career, but also your voice
and the narrative and the way that you stay relevant.
And I'm not blowing smoke up your ass. It's really
like it makes I think a lot of us feel
good because it's it's thoughtful. The other part of that
(04:57):
was that I finally started doing stand up the last
two months, and I've been a fan of the medium,
I've never had the balls to do it, and it's
been a blest i've been. You know, I wouldn't say
I do this. It's just I'm trying to find my voice.
I'm trying to find the character of what stories I
tell all of that, and I'm like, there's nobody who
(05:17):
does this better in a world that I know that
I've watched, than you. So that's the other reason why
I was like, I just selfishly get to ask you
questions for an hour.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Oh well, first off, the fact anyone finding any new
creative outlet to what they are already doing. You know,
you're an actor, you're an activision. If you want to
add comedian, painter, shipbuild, whatever, it's all. There's no such
thing as too late in the arts. So absolutely, I
don't know why you wouldn't try it, but I do
love that you had the rationale of, wait a minute,
(05:49):
if I back away from the friendliest first time lung stage,
then I have no right to ever try it like
I do have to do this. What was the first
place you went up? Then? What was your very first
place you went on state?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Very first place I went up was for Alochmannon and
they were performing in one of the theaters at Njpac
in Newark, New Jersey, and it was just one gig,
and I mean, their audiences are tremendous, very friendly. I
watched the tape back and was like, okay, here's what
I did well, Here's what I didn't do well. And
then for Sloss, he was performing I think fourteen shows
(06:25):
at the Soho Playhouse and I did ten of them for.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Him going to New York. Okay, oh, that's a great room.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Which is a great intimate venue. But it's only last
week was the first time that I that I did
my first actual comedy club at the which was new
or Comedy Club East Village, and it was it was terrifying.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I'm doing it again tonight. Just a ten minute set.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah, terrifying, totally different. So many of the jokes that
hit in a theater did not at all, Like there
was one joke literally that's crickets.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Okay, Well, but here's what's kind of cool you might
get to experience. There's a lot of hurdles you're going
to need to get over as a comedian. I think
anyone has to do this. You have to get over
the thinking about being on stage. Got to go on
stage up so that that doesn't become a thing you
think about it, just like I'm sure when you started acting,
your first acting role was probably one line, and you,
you know, just agonize over that one line, and now
(07:17):
you're like, I know the general idea of this. I
can find the character, and a lot of times you
get comfortable enough to go. A lot of my characters
can be found in reacting to the other characters, and
I will change in the moment and you get that
same thing happens with stand up is you are still
in the you're still in the mood that you just said,
and I'm going up again tonight, and like you're still
(07:38):
thinking about going up, Whereas I went up stage on
Monday at the Largo, and I didn't think about it
until I showed up at the club. And it has
nothing to do with how good I am. I've been
doing this long enough so that it's just second nature.
But so you did a joke that killed in a
theater and then it got crickets in a club, something
really weird might happen tonight. You might go up and
(08:00):
do that joke again, and it might work again for
no reason. And there's no nothing more frustrating and aggravating
than a joke that one night it works, next night
it doesn't, and then it works again, and you're like,
what in that, and just no rhyme or reason to it.
An audience is a verb and you have to roll
with it. It's a different thing every night.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
I've decided I'm going to do the exact same set
for that reason because it's in the same club.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah, and I just want to see that is again.
You learned so much on the nights when things don't
work because you What you learned very quickly is half
of doing comedy is being present on stage in the
moment and giving them a once in a life of
event to see, rather than I'm just running through my
jokes that needs work that they don't like. You're actually involved,
(08:49):
and you're you can be amused with, Oh Jesus, that
completely just ate a dick. Where did that happen? You know?
So that can also be fascinating. Yeah, good point.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
When when was your first Do you remember the first
time you got on stage?
Speaker 2 (09:02):
It was I remember this Tuesday, July eighteenth at the
Garvins Comedy Club. This was in nineteen eighty eight, Garvin's
on l Street between thirteenth and fourteenth and Washington, DC.
I was nineteen. I went up near the end of
the night, but I think I got on before midnight,
(09:23):
so I'm counting it as the eighteenth. I completely ate it.
One line that I did got this response from another
Communian backgrounelate ah like that, which is a way of
a comedian going, oh that was good. But I got
hooked on the hang. I got hooked on the life.
I'm upstream where it's all being invented. I'm not getting
(09:43):
it second and third hand after watching it on SNL
or a special. I'm hanging with the guys that are
and watching them risk and form things. Dave Chappelle was
on that show. He was fourteen. No way, the first
night you went up, first night I went up. I
think it was his first night, but I'm not sure now.
But he annihilated and he had that thing of it
(10:06):
felt like he'd been doing it thirty years and he
was fourteen years old. He was so comfortable, he wasn't rushed.
Yeah that, Oh wow, you're I'm I'm genuinely excited for you.
Cal like you're going to experience so many firsts. Oh,
that's gonna be amazing.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
It's what's funny is those firsts are like, so I'm
very self conscious about because of the types of movies
I've done. I have the privilege of, like, you know,
you'll you'll be at the supermarket and somebody will come
up to you expecting you to say something funny because
they associate you with these characters who who I don't
write but I play, so they're funnier than me. So
I have experienced what I think is the you're laughing
(10:43):
at any joke I make because you're just kind and
you want to laugh because you expect to laugh. But
then also, what was clear about the club and the
joke that bombed, which I appreciate that it bombed. Is
that No, that wasn't the case. So like, yep, break
maybe the bar is even higher, which is but you hope,
you hope that you have to fight hard to make
somebody laugh.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Think of it this way. Here's what you're going to
discover really quickly. When you walk out him and stays. First,
you're gonna get the that's the guy from me, oh nice,
and then they'll just go all right, let's see what
he does. Like you'll get that little moment of oh,
I get to see a movie star. This is exciting.
Let's see what he does. An example, I used to
write for the NTV Movie Awards, and the producers are
(11:26):
always really hot about this guy is hot right now.
We've got to get this guy right now. It's like, great,
I know that this person is hot. Let's write something
funny for them to say. No, all they gotta do
is walk out. Yeah, theyn't walk out, and the place
will go nuts and then they better do something funny
or it's gonna get really bad really quickly. Because I've
seen this. Look. I've done stand up where a celebrity
(11:50):
or someone decides to pop on stage and try and
then they realize very quickly. Oh, I don't. I didn't
actually write anything. I thought it would just you know, yeah,
at least you're cognizant of I've got to sit down
and write some stuff. I better have things ready to
talk about. Yeah, yeah, No.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
The tricky thing for me also is this this anxiety
around Like the characters I'm known for are infinitely cooler
than who I actually.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Am, than the insecure person that I am.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, and so yeah, crafting a stand up narrative, I'm like,
is it should it be dick jokes forward? Should it
be cerebral political shit forward? Am I thinking about it
the wrong way? How do they see me? What will
they find funny? Does it even matter? Because funny is funny?
And then I'm just so fucking in my head that
it's not funny as I'm writing.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
So those are kind of the struggles because you're starting,
You're supposed to be in your head right now, You're
supposed to be in your head overthinking things and oh
my god, wait, so what's the thing is this going
to get? Going to crowwork? Crowork? Is what it really
comes down to in the long if you do stick
at it the long run, is it's the people who
can write good jokes and go up over and over again.
(12:59):
They're always trends. They are always little fads that get
really hot, really quick, and those always, always, always burn out.
And the people that endurance is more important than truth,
especially in comedy, and if you can stick with it,
you can really get to it. I mean, George Carlin
had this great beginning of his career and then he
(13:20):
had this weird middle where he was in the wilderness
for a while, and then at the end he like
re lit this after burner and went beyond what so,
but he believed in the long run. So right now,
nothing you do is going to help your career as
a comedian, and nothing you do is going to hurt it.
Do whatever the fuck you want and let yourself bomb.
And then and then you wake up the next day
(13:41):
and go I went down in grease covered flames last night,
and I woke up today, world still spinning. No one
gives a shit. You can try it again. Yeah, that's
very good advice. Yeah, that's very good advice.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Who when when you started out, and maybe this has
changed over the years. Actually, did you have comedians who
influenced you or who inspired you?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yeah? I had a really weird had a weird progression.
I think a lot of comedians aid the same thing
before I ever set foot on stage. It was prior
Carlin Cosby and especially Steve Martin, like, those were my guys,
and that's who I was kind of going for once
I started doing stand up after a couple of months
(14:24):
in it, it was my circle of friends. It was
the people I hung out with were who I was
trying to get to in terms of skill, and then
newer comedians I would see that the world hadn't seen yet.
But I am like watching, you know, watching Amiria Bamford
come up, or as zach Alifanakis or a Mitch Hedberg
(14:45):
or a Laura Kitling, and you're going, oh my god,
this stuff this person is doing is you know, That's
who then becomes your influence. Because those guys influence. Their
influence got you onto the stage, but the ones that
get you writing and creating on the people you see
every night, they're going, how how how did you just
make that? Fuck? Like I there were so many nights
(15:08):
I had to realize anything can be made funny if
you're funny. So the idea of well that's a taboo
subject or that's the only reason that people think it's
taboo is because no one figured out a way to
make it funny. Yeah, and somebody and somebody will, somebody will.
Now that doesn't mean that there's a lot of people
that are now doing this. And again, everything that's going
(15:30):
on in comedy right now is not new. This happens
from cycles. There's a lot of people that are doing
this weird digging in on political incorrectness and all I
don't care about. You know, this is about freedom of speech.
And then they're doing but you watch them when they're
doing the plankiest old racist, homophobic, just warmed over stuff
(15:52):
from the fifties that they're treating like I'm on the
vanguard right now, which again that's that trick's been done
a lot lot of times. First off, truly edgy dark
people and the people who don't tell you how edgy
and dark and brave they are, those are the truly
edgy ub Anyone who tells you better strop in, it's
gonna get darkly. Like. The best example to me is
(16:14):
the darkest comedian working right now is Anthony Jedselnick. But
he doesn't have to say any racial slurs or homophobic
or trans slurs. But he does jokes about trans people,
does jokes about race, does jokes, but they're so brilliantly crafted.
I'm going to paraphrase him. He's like Andy Warhol said, artist,
(16:35):
whatever you can get away with. When you listen to
George Carlin's the Seven Words you Can't Say on TV bit,
you should listen. Listen to that bit again. At the
opening he says the seven words, and the audience, oh
my god, Oh my god, he's there all losing her mind.
And then he goes back and breaks them all down
and shows how ridiculous it is that any of these
(16:55):
accurs words. But at the end of that he says
them again, and the audience just goes, yeah, why are
those No one will reacts because he's literally changed how
they think about language in the course of a bit.
It's incredible. So that's what you have to do tonight
show Yet night, great, thank you have to hit that level.
I'm gonna let you go.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I have some writing to do, you know, as a
as a comedic actor, I obviously have not.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I get asked a lot about.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Trends in both stand up and in comedy, and especially
for the Halding Kamr movies. Oftentimes people will, especially younger,
younger fans or younger journalists, will say things like, so.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
You can't make those jokes anymore? Huh.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
And my response, at least from the Harolding Kamr movies,
is like, first of all, yes you can, But second
of all, why would I want to make the exact
same joke that I got to make twenty years ago.
I feel like you're asking a question that is a
false question. There's no yes, or things like do you
(18:07):
regret that your character.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Said X, Y and Z.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Don't you think that was misogynistic? And my answer is like,
in a twenty twenty six lens with a time machine
that exists in your head, do I think that joke
was misogynistic?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Obviously?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Obviously, do I regret making it? No, Because we didn't
have twenty twenty six, there's no time machine, and at
that time that was what the cutting edge of this
type of comedy was. So hearing you say this is
like an elevated version of that in the stand up world.
And I appreciate that perspective because I think the way
(18:43):
that something is executed, at least in the film space
is everything, and it sounds like that's maybe the case
in the stand up world too.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of Look there's listen to
my first two albums. There's stuff on there where you're
like niche, and my whole thing is, yeah, I didn't
know better, and now I know better, and I have changed.
What I'm not a fan of is now there seems
to be this. The new thing is to go yeah,
I did say it, and now I'm gonna say it
twice as hard, like just just go, hey, I just
(19:11):
I learned better. It's okay, you know it's I don't.
But but now it's this weird culture now and I
guess it's all this fragile masculinity of no apologies, no regrets.
I do not back down. It' say. The best part
of comedy is characters going listen to this story about
how I completely fucked this up. Like comedians start off
(19:33):
when I was young, You're very insecure. So your comedy
is all about this is stupid and this is lame,
and I'm I'm the awesome one for pointing out all
the lame stuff that isn't get older. It turns into
listen to this lame fucking thing I did. Oh my God,
like because you get comfortable enough to talk about that stuff.
And a lot of times if you watch the old
I almost said, the old Harold and Kumar movies, like
(19:56):
they're on Classic Comedy Night, they are very whether you
like it or not, those are very accurate portraits of
how confusing it was to be a dude. Yes, in
the early aughts, totally and it's but they're also revolutionary
because there are movies where an Indian character and Asian
character are just as big a train wrecks as the
(20:18):
goofy white characters. Usually in movies, it's the lovable, goofy
white dude that's everyone around us, like, would you just
calm down? And those movies are like everyone's kind of
a train wreck and we're all trying our best here.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Those flaws in those characters are what I love most
about them is that they're not perfect. They should be flawed.
That's what makes them human. You were talking about movies
over the decades and kind of the perception of comedy
from nineteen eighty eight that first gig to now, how
has your comedy changed and evolved? And then also what's
(20:51):
what's been a constant. What's stayed the same that you
just love.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
The one way my comedy evolved, and I mentioned it early,
which is it became less about here's how cool I
am and more about here's how human and flawed I am,
and yet I still exist, And that you reach audiences
on such a deeper level when they see you up there,
and they also don't feel so long going oh yeah,
I do I do a bit now about it isn't
(21:18):
even a bit. It's just reporting. I'm just reporting what
I do, which is, there are nights and I'm not
exaggerating where I have been up until dawn. Like I've
seen the sun come up through the drapes on YouTube,
like watching the hooves of cows and horses being cleaned,
just one video after the other. And people they laugh
(21:39):
at that, but they also have that like yes, okay,
thank God, Like okay, it's not just me. I thought
I was going insane, you know so, But it took
me a while to be confident enough to go, let
me lay out all the embarrassing shit things that I do.
But you cannot believe how audiences will meet you halfway
and absolutely connect with you. The one big thing that
(22:00):
I've seen. It's changed in comedy is access isn't even
a word anymore. When I was starting, you had to
get a clean five, you went on the Tonight Show,
if you got called to the couch, you got a sitcom.
And that was the only way in Baby. And then
Carson quit and everything got scattered to the winds, and
you know, all the clubs closed, and then all comedy
(22:20):
came up, which was people that just wanted to do it.
And now there's this thing of you got to get
your you gotta film your stuff, you gotta get a
viral crowd work clip, and that will lead us something,
which is all fine, that will last for a while.
But already I'm seeing crowds that don't want to they
don't want to hear CrowdWork from you because they're realizing
(22:40):
crowd work just means the community doesn't have any material.
He's just going to you and doing this stuff. And
the constant and I saw this when the comedy boom
collapsed in ninety All the clubs closed in ninety is
the people that just write every single day and go
up as many nights as they can, that they're being
(23:00):
paid or not, are the ones who survive and go
the furthest because down the road you're going to have
to have really solid material, and some people will have
it and some people again, some people are great at
editing and using all the tool that's great, but you
still have to have material to go along with it,
or you'll listen. There's a lot of these crowd work
(23:23):
comedians and a lot of these viral comedians. All of
them could be great, yeah, but they're being robbed of
their term in the wilderness to just figure out what
they want to do without people watching them. They're already
posting what they're doing, which they shouldn't be doing, and
they get booked in clubs. For these influencers get booked
in clubs and they realize this cause got ten minutes
of stuff and we booked them for an hour, And
(23:44):
that audience will leave not going I've never seen that
influence again. They will leave going I've never seen comedy again.
Oh yeah. And the people that keep writing no matter
what are the ones that will survive.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Why did the clubs close in the nineties.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Because they switched to a we are selling drinks model.
And when they switch to a we are selling drinks model,
that meant, we just need the audience loubed up and excited,
and they would start booking jugglers and comedy magicians and
R rated hypnotists and prop acts and giving away free
tickets radio station giveaways, and people would show up and
(24:23):
it was a disaster and it was more of a
spectacle than an actual show and the people and then
this is going to sound kind of elitist, but the
people that are maybe a little smarter and have the
kind of money to regularly go out for live entertainment
were driven away, and so those clubs couldn't sustain themselves.
And now a lot of these people coming up will
(24:44):
have no problem paper in the room and giving out
free tickets because they can sell merch after it, and
it's about the merch. But those people will never come
back to the show or a show. So this we're about,
I think to see another collapse. I think that Look,
there's some really amazing comedians working right now that are
filling stadiums, and they deserve to. There's some who don't,
(25:07):
there's some who do. But I don't think the stadium
model is going to sustain for very much longer, and
it's going to be the ones who can work in
the intimate clubs and small theaters that are going to
have the sustainability.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
When you started to find success in the alt scene
in LA, how did that come about? Like how'd you
jump from DC to LA and then?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
And what did that? What were those years? Like? Well,
I moved from DC in early ninety two because the
clubs were just gone, and I moved to San Francisco
where you could get on stage every night. And then
a year later in nineteenninety three, a half the clubs
in San Francisco had closed. Then the alt scene happened
in LA when the clubs really were closing and people
(25:53):
were just opening rooms and bookstores and laundromats and coffee
shops wherever they could find the stage. And there was
this real feeling of success because oh, I've found an
audience that was not going to the clubs, that is
hearing about this new thing and is actually able to
the audience had no expectations for the comedians, whereas before
that because they'd seen, you know, even at the improv
(26:16):
comedy on the road with a brick wall and a
certain rhythm, They're like, this is what comedy should be.
And now suddenly that rhythm was gone and there was
this really exciting like those were shows that even if
I wasn't on them, I would go and see them
because it was Sarah Sulferman and Tenacious D and Todd
Glass and you know, Jeanine Garoffalo and people doing genuinely
(26:37):
weird stuff on stage. I means. But interesting thing about
the alt scene, just like the TikTok scene, just like
the crowd work scene, there were certain alt comedians that
only stayed in the alt comedy rooms. There were these
hothouse flowers like, yes, I did alt comedy at the
Largo and Tempest and the Mbar, but I would still
go on the road and go do Pobs and go
(26:59):
do Charlie Good Nights, like I wanted that seasoning. And
there were a lot of these alt superstars that then
got booked for road gigs and realize, oh, the stuff
that works in the alt room, they don't want to
hear that. In Lincoln, Nebraska. You got to make every
crowd your crowd. That was a big thing with in
the alt scene, which was well, this just isn't iconic crowd.
(27:20):
It's like you got to find a way to make
every crowd, your crowd and get them. That's part of
the fun, is you win them over. How have the crowds.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Changed from then till now or the audiences I guess
both honestly, both in like in la or New York.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
And in the Lincoln Nebraska. It's weirdly similar now because
this country has become so tribal that you will see
shows booked as the non Woke Night or you know,
LGBTQ night, or like it's they're announcing their tribe in
the title, and that's who comes out, which is which
(27:55):
is kind of weird. It's a weird fracturing of the
audience that again we're going to have to live through,
and then the people that will come out the other
side of it again, I think people like Anthony Jezilneck
who just like that guy just writes amazing stuff. It
doesn't matter who's watching it. The jokes are so undeniable
and is also a lot of weird. The one thing
that you and I are from the last generation that
(28:17):
the word sellout means anything too, like we're the ones
where and you would like lose sleep, Like there's a
whole generation now that there's no such It's like you
get your bag no matter what they don't, and in
the idea of hypocrisy doesn't mean anything to them anymore.
You can rail against corporations and billionaires and then literally
go work do a private show for a billionaire and
(28:38):
nobody cares. It's this weird, it's this but again, it's
that's what's happening now. I think that engine will swing
the other way. But we're we're living in such an
a moral time that where truth doesn't matter anymore, that
people are kind of and also there is that underlying
panic of well, if everything is collapsing, shouldn't have grabbed
(29:01):
as much money as I can? Which that's all feet
but that's all fear based. But yeah, there's always you
know this showbiz. Every day is a rainy day, and
there are those moments where you're like, should I just
grab the money right now? You know? Who knows? But
like I did a bunch of ads for Caesar's in
(29:21):
Las Vegas for the bedding app and then I found
out actward like, oh god, there's like it's horrible gambling
and what the hell might like I didn't know it was.
The thing was like now I know better because I didn't.
I didn't gamble, so I didn't know. Oh it just
it just always fries you crazy.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
You should have just taken the Saudi money. That would
have solved everything. It should have just gone. Then you
would have saved us from the gambling addiction.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Oh my god, yes, exactly. I could have donated that
money to get gamblers Anonymous. This is again a very
very weird time that we're in right now.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
My only touch point with that the which is a
very very small note that I got a couple of times,
including from my writing partner Ramen, who's one of our
one of our guys on this team. So there's a
there's a there's a joke that I do about an
auntie that I have and I wrote, I wrote about
(30:21):
her in my book, but then also turned it into
a stand up bit.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
And when I.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Recount the story, I do voices of aunties who have
Indian accents. And I've gotten this note a couple of
times from young young younger, like not our age group
at all, Indian Americans who are like I was just
bummed out that he decided to just make it about
an accent. And my first reaction, I'm obviously defensive, about this.
(30:45):
But my first reaction is like, this was objectively funny
enough to be in my book, which you read with
your eyes, So so I think you need to calm
down a little bit. I'm also the like, look, in
the past, I have railed again things that I found
to be stereotypical or just, and most people miss the
fact that I find them to be stereotypical because they're
(31:06):
fucking boring, not because I'm thin skinned and offended by something.
But so it was interesting to process this note where
I have not yet tried this joke without what I
think is the authenticity of bringing the audience into that
living room.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
But also that's what she said. That is sound you, Yeah,
that's what she sounded like.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
You mentioned how stand ups are late night hosts have
had to take on this or people expect us to
take on this journalistic role because everyone's so anti news.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Can you can you expand on that a little bit? Well,
the news has been has become so blatantly not the
news anymore, or it's again it's tribal where I will
go for the news that I like, or I will
go for the news here that I like, or especially
I don't know if you've been watching CBS. It's just
open and armed for our administration. What I'm saying is
(32:03):
there's no one speaking truth to power in journalism because
even more than showbiz. Look, showbiz, I want access. I
want to be rich and famous. But now journalism wants
the access and wants to please the people in power
even more than I mean, there's still a lot of
comedians that are doing that, but a lot of comedians
because I think we can exist without worrying about in
(32:25):
the long run, we can exist without corporate sponsorship. If
you funny enough to book a room and live a
little smaller, not worry about some insane lifestyle, you can
get away with not having to answer to anybody. So yeah,
maybe you are looked at as he or she is
not tied to anybody. But I think that's a really
scary thing because that means we're going back toward medieval times.
(32:47):
Because in medieval times is when the gestures were the
truth tellers. But they were truth tellers in a way
that a lot of these comedian truth tellers are becoming now,
which is we're gonna do whatever we want to you.
We'll let this guy come out and say that I'm
fat or my hair looks stupid. See, then that make
everything even. You can all if you're the ruling class,
you can weaponize, ridicule, make it look like, see I'm
(33:11):
a good sport anyway, send that guy's kids off to war.
So that's really scary too. But there are so many
I forgot who said this. It was just amazing. I
shared it on my socials, but they were like George
Carlin had that great bit about how there's a big
club and you're not in it, and we have this
whole generation of comedians now going I've been in the
(33:32):
big club. I mean, those people are actually kind of
nice and I'd like to be friends with them, Like
that's kind of how that's what we've gone from. So
it is scary. I mean, I try to support as
much independent news sources and reporting as I can, but
we're in a very scary area right now because comedy
has often been used by tyrants and dictators to go,
(33:56):
see I'm funny to an human, come on, don't worry
about it.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
The second that satire started getting attacked was when I
think there was a bunch of eye rolling that that
sort of.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah, but it was even scary when satires started getting used,
look a lot of jen ux and a lot of
all comedy has got to eat the guilt and eat
the responsibility. For we used a lot of ironic racism
and a lot of ironic homophobia because we thought, well,
we elected a black guy, so racism is over, so
now we can make fun of racism ironically. And that
(34:29):
was the blueprint that people like the Proud Boys and
a lot of these online grapers and provocateurs use. Then
they're going to go it's just satires. It is satire,
but not to you. And I know what you're doing
right now.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
You've talked a bit about how comedies helped you through tragedy,
and I'm curious what else you love about being part
of this comedic community, and then what else do you
want to explore within your work looking forward?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Being a part of a comedian community is just as good,
if not better than actually being a comedian, because you
have access to also the most damaged, messed up but
aware of it, and can also go, oh, I've been
down this hole, I know the way out. I yeah,
this is nothing new. So when you go through some
(35:22):
real darkness, like I have both impersonal and then in
an existential way watching where reality is going. I'm on
threads with so many comedians on this phone that can
we can talk back and forth and joke, and it
keeps me sane as things feel like they're falling apart.
I don't think people had joke threads to text two
(35:43):
in nineteen thirty six in Vianna. The further things I
want to explore, I mean, I will never stop doing
stand up. What I've just come to realize in these
last couple of years is the new things that I'll
break through with in terms of standing up and in
terms of looking at comedy. I can't even predict what
(36:03):
those things are going to be. At this point. It
will be from me showing up two or three nights
a week, going on stage and getting comfortable enough to
then go to the next level and talk about the
next thing. I mean, there's stuff that I'm also learning
to change up my routine. My routine has always been
I write on stage, I go on stage. I kind
(36:23):
of work it on a stage. Now I'm like, well,
how about you try sitting down and writing. You've always
said in interviews, I can't sit and write jokes well,
What would happen if you started doing that? What would change?
Would anything new come of that? So I'm changing up
my technique and I also this year especially want to
start making films and directing both short films and feature films.
(36:45):
What I genuinely think is funny, because there are some
comedies that come out that I do think are brilliant,
but there's a lot right now. I think, especially film comedy,
is in a very weird, limbo type place where there's
a lot of IP and a lot of you know,
it's all just nudging you in the in the remember this,
you get this reference right, And there's no like genuinely new,
(37:08):
weird voices that aren't connected to anything referential. And I'm
saying that because I am just as guilty and my
stand up of doing jokes that are all about pop
culture references, and I realize what a blind cul de
sac that ends up being. I would rather really go
into like human flawed character stuff, you know, that's awesome,
(37:28):
more of that, So that's where I want to push it.
Weirdly enough, you got to do film comedies during the
last time where they could make mid level budgeted comedies
and start like now, that's kind of going away. You
either have to make some Oh they only spent seventy
grand and that's part of the ad campaign, or it's
one hundred billion dollar IP and that's what it is.
(37:52):
But there's no like fifteen million dollars. And these guys go,
what's the what's the plot? They got a white castle
and a bunch of stuff goes wrong? Like, is no,
that's it? And you know that, Oh we need those
kind of movies. They agree, Yeah, there's nothing in the
middle right now, which is very frustrating. Yeah, what a
Harold and Kumar learned? They literally don't learn it. They
don't learn anything. They are they are, if anything, already
(38:13):
they might be even dumber at the end, which which
again is so real.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
You're like, that's me, yes, So why do you say
you you'll never stop doing stand up.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Because this is truly one of the few arts where
your age, I don't think matters. It is if you
are being honest with whatever you're dealing with at that moment,
you are vital and hilarious on stage. When my early
albums are all about I'm never getting married, and then
I'm I'm married, We're never having kids? My daughters like you.
(38:43):
There you are, you were checking in on your life
and see and if anything, it's even funny when you
see all the contradictions as you grow older with a complicated,
self negating person you are. If you grow and grow
and grow and change. So I can't wait to see
what I'm going to be, how I will view the
world when I'm eighty nine years old. That's going to
be fascinating to me. I don't know. You don't have
(39:04):
to retire from this profession. It's great, Thanks man, This
is really fun. I really appreciate you doing this, and
I was really surprised. I did not know you had
started doing stand up. So getting to stay out talk
to someone who's going to experience for the first time
a lot of stuff that I did, that's going to
be really fascinating. Thank you. That's going to be really
You've got some very interesting times ahead of you, and
(39:26):
it will feedback into your writing and into your acting
in ways you can't see. Covy.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
That was the incredible paton Oswalt, Emmy and Grammy winning
American stand up comedian, actor, writer and voice actor. Here
we Go Again as a production of iHeart Podcasts and
Snaffo Media in association with New Metric Media.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Our executive producers.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Are me Kelpen Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Alissa Martino, Andy Kim,
Pat Kelly, Chris Kelly, and Dylan Fagan. Meghan tan Is
our producer and writer. Dave Shumka is our producer and editor.
Our consulting producer is Romin Borsolino. Tory Smith is our
associate producer. Theme music by Chris Kelly, logo by Matt Gosson,
(40:13):
Legal review from Daniel Welsh, Caroline Johnson and Megan Halson.
Special thanks to Glenn Bassner, Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane
Klein and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson,
Carrie Lieberman and Nikki Etour. Thanks for listening. Everybody, tell
your friends write a review. All of this helps. I
appreciate you listening, and until we go again, I'm Kelpenn
Many would say that I have been a comedic actor
most of my entire life, and I guess also some
of my childhood thanks to a very well placed pelvic
thrust that I improvised during my eighth grade production of
The Whiz, I played the tin man. I think I've
talked about this before on the pod, and you're still welcome.
But look, whenever somebody refers to me as a comic,
(00:21):
it really feels like stolen valor, because to me, stand
up comedy is a whole different beast from acting, and
it's also something that I always wanted to try, but
honestly never had the balls to do until a few
months ago. So two of my very good friends, A
Lookmannon and Daniel Sloss, are both phenomenal stand up comedians.
They've toured all over the world, and separately they asked
(00:44):
me if I wanted to open for them, because they
knew that I have talked to me in game for
years about wanting to try stand up and I said
enthusiastically said yes to both of them. And then six
months go by and like three weeks before each of
their shows, which were supposed to happen in the same
in two week period. I called them both and I said,
I can't do it. I've done no work the last
six months. I cannot open for you. This is too terrifying.
(01:07):
And they both were like, okay, all right, well, if
you change your mind, call us back. And that night
I looked in the mirror as I was brushing my
teeth and I legitimately just thought to myself, you bitch,
if you're going to say no to this, don't ever
think or say out loud that you've always wanted to
try stand up, because if you're not going to do
it now, you're just never going.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
To do it.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
All of which is to say, the last few months,
having done stand up, having opened for both a Look
and Daniel, the excitement that I've experienced is sort of
like a high. And I have heard this before that
stand up comedy is compared to a high when things
go well. And also, having played a stoner in at
least one trilogy, I agree.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Speaking of which, the one way my comedy evolved it
became less about here's how cool I am, and more
about here's how human and flawed I am, and yet
I still exist.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Patton Oswalt is a legend in stand up You may
know him from his ten comedy specials, from his appearance
as Spencer on the King of Queen's or from his
voice acting as Remy in Pixar's Rat Tattooy. He has
won Grammys and Emmys.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
He's been doing.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Stand up for over three decades, which is why Patten
is the guy I want to talk to a selfishly
about everything comedy, and b I want him to help
me answer the question when, when comedy keeps reinventing itself,
what actually stays the same?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Here we Oh Again again, Agon again.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Hey, I'm Cal Penn and this is here We Go Again,
a show that takes today's trends and headlines.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
And asks why does history keep repeating itself? Here we go? Well,
hang on really quick, cow, So the show is called
(03:10):
here we Go Again? Yeah, And I kept been meaning
to answer, like the acceleration of the oh, we're doing
this again from history must be almost surreal for you
at this point, Like do you feel like, by by
doing this show, maybe you manifested this weird nightmare that
we're in right now that like it's almost like reality
(03:31):
when oh, Cow's doing a show about things coming back. Oh,
let's get something let's give him some material for this show.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Thankfully, we've so far, at least we've stayed largely away
from the dooman gloom cycle.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Oh good, Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Okay, Paton, I am.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I'm very excited to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
I've had a couple of friends on, but I have
not yet had anybody on this pod whose lap I
got to sit on when he was dressed as Santa
Claus in a mall, who I then smoked a lot
of with in a dark parking lot. And for those
who don't know, Patten was one of our co stars
in a very herald and Komark Christmas. He played the
mal Santa, but he's so much more than a pot
(04:10):
dealing mal Santa. So that's the intro. Thank you for
being here.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Thank you, and I'm glad to be hosted by the
first man. And this should be in your IMDb first
man to ever blow a three D puff of pot
smoke in cinema history. That's correct. I forgot about that. Yeah,
that's the shot in your in memorium clip. Well, the real.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Question that I was gonna I was gonna start with.
So the reason that I selfishly wanted to talk about
stand up with you is twofold one. I have admired
not just your stand up career, but also your voice
and the narrative and the way that you stay relevant.
And I'm not blowing smoke up your ass. It's really
like it makes I think a lot of us feel
good because it's it's thoughtful. The other part of that
(04:57):
was that I finally started doing stand up the last
two months, and I've been a fan of the medium,
I've never had the balls to do it, and it's
been a blest i've been. You know, I wouldn't say
I do this. It's just I'm trying to find my voice.
I'm trying to find the character of what stories I
tell all of that, and I'm like, there's nobody who
(05:17):
does this better in a world that I know that
I've watched, than you. So that's the other reason why
I was like, I just selfishly get to ask you
questions for an hour.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Oh well, first off, the fact anyone finding any new
creative outlet to what they are already doing. You know,
you're an actor, you're an activision. If you want to
add comedian, painter, shipbuild, whatever, it's all. There's no such
thing as too late in the arts. So absolutely, I
don't know why you wouldn't try it, but I do
love that you had the rationale of, wait a minute,
(05:49):
if I back away from the friendliest first time lung stage,
then I have no right to ever try it like
I do have to do this. What was the first
place you went up? Then? What was your very first
place you went on state?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Very first place I went up was for Alochmannon and
they were performing in one of the theaters at Njpac
in Newark, New Jersey, and it was just one gig,
and I mean, their audiences are tremendous, very friendly. I
watched the tape back and was like, okay, here's what
I did well, Here's what I didn't do well. And
then for Sloss, he was performing I think fourteen shows
(06:25):
at the Soho Playhouse and I did ten of them for.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Him going to New York. Okay, oh, that's a great room.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Which is a great intimate venue. But it's only last
week was the first time that I that I did
my first actual comedy club at the which was new
or Comedy Club East Village, and it was it was terrifying.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I'm doing it again tonight. Just a ten minute set.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah, terrifying, totally different. So many of the jokes that
hit in a theater did not at all, Like there
was one joke literally that's crickets.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Okay, Well, but here's what's kind of cool you might
get to experience. There's a lot of hurdles you're going
to need to get over as a comedian. I think
anyone has to do this. You have to get over
the thinking about being on stage. Got to go on
stage up so that that doesn't become a thing you
think about it, just like I'm sure when you started acting,
your first acting role was probably one line, and you,
you know, just agonize over that one line, and now
(07:17):
you're like, I know the general idea of this. I
can find the character, and a lot of times you
get comfortable enough to go. A lot of my characters
can be found in reacting to the other characters, and
I will change in the moment and you get that
same thing happens with stand up is you are still
in the you're still in the mood that you just said,
and I'm going up again tonight, and like you're still
(07:38):
thinking about going up, Whereas I went up stage on
Monday at the Largo, and I didn't think about it
until I showed up at the club. And it has
nothing to do with how good I am. I've been
doing this long enough so that it's just second nature.
But so you did a joke that killed in a
theater and then it got crickets in a club, something
really weird might happen tonight. You might go up and
(08:00):
do that joke again, and it might work again for
no reason. And there's no nothing more frustrating and aggravating
than a joke that one night it works, next night
it doesn't, and then it works again, and you're like,
what in that, and just no rhyme or reason to it.
An audience is a verb and you have to roll
with it. It's a different thing every night.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
I've decided I'm going to do the exact same set
for that reason because it's in the same club.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah, and I just want to see that is again.
You learned so much on the nights when things don't
work because you What you learned very quickly is half
of doing comedy is being present on stage in the
moment and giving them a once in a life of
event to see, rather than I'm just running through my
jokes that needs work that they don't like. You're actually involved,
(08:49):
and you're you can be amused with, Oh Jesus, that
completely just ate a dick. Where did that happen? You know?
So that can also be fascinating. Yeah, good point.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
When when was your first Do you remember the first
time you got on stage?
Speaker 2 (09:02):
It was I remember this Tuesday, July eighteenth at the
Garvins Comedy Club. This was in nineteen eighty eight, Garvin's
on l Street between thirteenth and fourteenth and Washington, DC.
I was nineteen. I went up near the end of
the night, but I think I got on before midnight,
(09:23):
so I'm counting it as the eighteenth. I completely ate it.
One line that I did got this response from another
Communian backgrounelate ah like that, which is a way of
a comedian going, oh that was good. But I got
hooked on the hang. I got hooked on the life.
I'm upstream where it's all being invented. I'm not getting
(09:43):
it second and third hand after watching it on SNL
or a special. I'm hanging with the guys that are
and watching them risk and form things. Dave Chappelle was
on that show. He was fourteen. No way, the first
night you went up, first night I went up. I
think it was his first night, but I'm not sure now.
But he annihilated and he had that thing of it
(10:06):
felt like he'd been doing it thirty years and he
was fourteen years old. He was so comfortable, he wasn't rushed.
Yeah that, Oh wow, you're I'm I'm genuinely excited for you.
Cal like you're going to experience so many firsts. Oh,
that's gonna be amazing.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
It's what's funny is those firsts are like, so I'm
very self conscious about because of the types of movies
I've done. I have the privilege of, like, you know,
you'll you'll be at the supermarket and somebody will come
up to you expecting you to say something funny because
they associate you with these characters who who I don't
write but I play, so they're funnier than me. So
I have experienced what I think is the you're laughing
(10:43):
at any joke I make because you're just kind and
you want to laugh because you expect to laugh. But
then also, what was clear about the club and the
joke that bombed, which I appreciate that it bombed. Is
that No, that wasn't the case. So like, yep, break
maybe the bar is even higher, which is but you hope,
you hope that you have to fight hard to make
somebody laugh.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Think of it this way. Here's what you're going to
discover really quickly. When you walk out him and stays. First,
you're gonna get the that's the guy from me, oh nice,
and then they'll just go all right, let's see what
he does. Like you'll get that little moment of oh,
I get to see a movie star. This is exciting.
Let's see what he does. An example, I used to
write for the NTV Movie Awards, and the producers are
(11:26):
always really hot about this guy is hot right now.
We've got to get this guy right now. It's like, great,
I know that this person is hot. Let's write something
funny for them to say. No, all they gotta do
is walk out. Yeah, theyn't walk out, and the place
will go nuts and then they better do something funny
or it's gonna get really bad really quickly. Because I've
seen this. Look. I've done stand up where a celebrity
(11:50):
or someone decides to pop on stage and try and
then they realize very quickly. Oh, I don't. I didn't
actually write anything. I thought it would just you know, yeah,
at least you're cognizant of I've got to sit down
and write some stuff. I better have things ready to
talk about. Yeah, yeah, No.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
The tricky thing for me also is this this anxiety
around Like the characters I'm known for are infinitely cooler
than who I actually.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Am, than the insecure person that I am.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, and so yeah, crafting a stand up narrative, I'm like,
is it should it be dick jokes forward? Should it
be cerebral political shit forward? Am I thinking about it
the wrong way? How do they see me? What will
they find funny? Does it even matter? Because funny is funny?
And then I'm just so fucking in my head that
it's not funny as I'm writing.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
So those are kind of the struggles because you're starting,
You're supposed to be in your head right now, You're
supposed to be in your head overthinking things and oh
my god, wait, so what's the thing is this going
to get? Going to crowwork? Crowork? Is what it really
comes down to in the long if you do stick
at it the long run, is it's the people who
can write good jokes and go up over and over again.
(12:59):
They're always trends. They are always little fads that get
really hot, really quick, and those always, always, always burn out.
And the people that endurance is more important than truth,
especially in comedy, and if you can stick with it,
you can really get to it. I mean, George Carlin
had this great beginning of his career and then he
(13:20):
had this weird middle where he was in the wilderness
for a while, and then at the end he like
re lit this after burner and went beyond what so,
but he believed in the long run. So right now,
nothing you do is going to help your career as
a comedian, and nothing you do is going to hurt it.
Do whatever the fuck you want and let yourself bomb.
And then and then you wake up the next day
(13:41):
and go I went down in grease covered flames last night,
and I woke up today, world still spinning. No one
gives a shit. You can try it again. Yeah, that's
very good advice. Yeah, that's very good advice.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Who when when you started out, and maybe this has
changed over the years. Actually, did you have comedians who
influenced you or who inspired you?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yeah? I had a really weird had a weird progression.
I think a lot of comedians aid the same thing
before I ever set foot on stage. It was prior
Carlin Cosby and especially Steve Martin, like, those were my guys,
and that's who I was kind of going for once
I started doing stand up after a couple of months
(14:24):
in it, it was my circle of friends. It was
the people I hung out with were who I was
trying to get to in terms of skill, and then
newer comedians I would see that the world hadn't seen yet.
But I am like watching, you know, watching Amiria Bamford
come up, or as zach Alifanakis or a Mitch Hedberg
(14:45):
or a Laura Kitling, and you're going, oh my god,
this stuff this person is doing is you know, That's
who then becomes your influence. Because those guys influence. Their
influence got you onto the stage, but the ones that
get you writing and creating on the people you see
every night, they're going, how how how did you just
make that? Fuck? Like I there were so many nights
(15:08):
I had to realize anything can be made funny if
you're funny. So the idea of well that's a taboo
subject or that's the only reason that people think it's
taboo is because no one figured out a way to
make it funny. Yeah, and somebody and somebody will, somebody will.
Now that doesn't mean that there's a lot of people
that are now doing this. And again, everything that's going
(15:30):
on in comedy right now is not new. This happens
from cycles. There's a lot of people that are doing
this weird digging in on political incorrectness and all I
don't care about. You know, this is about freedom of speech.
And then they're doing but you watch them when they're
doing the plankiest old racist, homophobic, just warmed over stuff
(15:52):
from the fifties that they're treating like I'm on the
vanguard right now, which again that's that trick's been done
a lot lot of times. First off, truly edgy dark
people and the people who don't tell you how edgy
and dark and brave they are, those are the truly
edgy ub Anyone who tells you better strop in, it's
gonna get darkly. Like. The best example to me is
(16:14):
the darkest comedian working right now is Anthony Jedselnick. But
he doesn't have to say any racial slurs or homophobic
or trans slurs. But he does jokes about trans people,
does jokes about race, does jokes, but they're so brilliantly crafted.
I'm going to paraphrase him. He's like Andy Warhol said, artist,
(16:35):
whatever you can get away with. When you listen to
George Carlin's the Seven Words you Can't Say on TV bit,
you should listen. Listen to that bit again. At the
opening he says the seven words, and the audience, oh
my god, Oh my god, he's there all losing her mind.
And then he goes back and breaks them all down
and shows how ridiculous it is that any of these
(16:55):
accurs words. But at the end of that he says
them again, and the audience just goes, yeah, why are
those No one will reacts because he's literally changed how
they think about language in the course of a bit.
It's incredible. So that's what you have to do tonight
show Yet night, great, thank you have to hit that level.
I'm gonna let you go.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I have some writing to do, you know, as a
as a comedic actor, I obviously have not.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I get asked a lot about.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Trends in both stand up and in comedy, and especially
for the Halding Kamr movies. Oftentimes people will, especially younger,
younger fans or younger journalists, will say things like, so.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
You can't make those jokes anymore? Huh.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
And my response, at least from the Harolding Kamr movies,
is like, first of all, yes you can, But second
of all, why would I want to make the exact
same joke that I got to make twenty years ago.
I feel like you're asking a question that is a
false question. There's no yes, or things like do you
(18:07):
regret that your character.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Said X, Y and Z.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Don't you think that was misogynistic? And my answer is like,
in a twenty twenty six lens with a time machine
that exists in your head, do I think that joke
was misogynistic?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Obviously?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Obviously, do I regret making it? No, Because we didn't
have twenty twenty six, there's no time machine, and at
that time that was what the cutting edge of this
type of comedy was. So hearing you say this is
like an elevated version of that in the stand up world.
And I appreciate that perspective because I think the way
(18:43):
that something is executed, at least in the film space
is everything, and it sounds like that's maybe the case
in the stand up world too.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of Look there's listen to
my first two albums. There's stuff on there where you're
like niche, and my whole thing is, yeah, I didn't
know better, and now I know better, and I have changed.
What I'm not a fan of is now there seems
to be this. The new thing is to go yeah,
I did say it, and now I'm gonna say it
twice as hard, like just just go, hey, I just
(19:11):
I learned better. It's okay, you know it's I don't.
But but now it's this weird culture now and I
guess it's all this fragile masculinity of no apologies, no regrets.
I do not back down. It' say. The best part
of comedy is characters going listen to this story about
how I completely fucked this up. Like comedians start off
(19:33):
when I was young, You're very insecure. So your comedy
is all about this is stupid and this is lame,
and I'm I'm the awesome one for pointing out all
the lame stuff that isn't get older. It turns into
listen to this lame fucking thing I did. Oh my God,
like because you get comfortable enough to talk about that stuff.
And a lot of times if you watch the old
I almost said, the old Harold and Kumar movies, like
(19:56):
they're on Classic Comedy Night, they are very whether you
like it or not, those are very accurate portraits of
how confusing it was to be a dude. Yes, in
the early aughts, totally and it's but they're also revolutionary
because there are movies where an Indian character and Asian
character are just as big a train wrecks as the
(20:18):
goofy white characters. Usually in movies, it's the lovable, goofy
white dude that's everyone around us, like, would you just
calm down? And those movies are like everyone's kind of
a train wreck and we're all trying our best here.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Those flaws in those characters are what I love most
about them is that they're not perfect. They should be flawed.
That's what makes them human. You were talking about movies
over the decades and kind of the perception of comedy
from nineteen eighty eight that first gig to now, how
has your comedy changed and evolved? And then also what's
(20:51):
what's been a constant. What's stayed the same that you
just love.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
The one way my comedy evolved, and I mentioned it early,
which is it became less about here's how cool I
am and more about here's how human and flawed I am,
and yet I still exist, And that you reach audiences
on such a deeper level when they see you up there,
and they also don't feel so long going oh yeah,
I do I do a bit now about it isn't
(21:18):
even a bit. It's just reporting. I'm just reporting what
I do, which is, there are nights and I'm not
exaggerating where I have been up until dawn. Like I've
seen the sun come up through the drapes on YouTube,
like watching the hooves of cows and horses being cleaned,
just one video after the other. And people they laugh
(21:39):
at that, but they also have that like yes, okay,
thank God, Like okay, it's not just me. I thought
I was going insane, you know so, But it took
me a while to be confident enough to go, let
me lay out all the embarrassing shit things that I do.
But you cannot believe how audiences will meet you halfway
and absolutely connect with you. The one big thing that
(22:00):
I've seen. It's changed in comedy is access isn't even
a word anymore. When I was starting, you had to
get a clean five, you went on the Tonight Show,
if you got called to the couch, you got a sitcom.
And that was the only way in Baby. And then
Carson quit and everything got scattered to the winds, and
you know, all the clubs closed, and then all comedy
(22:20):
came up, which was people that just wanted to do it.
And now there's this thing of you got to get
your you gotta film your stuff, you gotta get a
viral crowd work clip, and that will lead us something,
which is all fine, that will last for a while.
But already I'm seeing crowds that don't want to they
don't want to hear CrowdWork from you because they're realizing
(22:40):
crowd work just means the community doesn't have any material.
He's just going to you and doing this stuff. And
the constant and I saw this when the comedy boom
collapsed in ninety All the clubs closed in ninety is
the people that just write every single day and go
up as many nights as they can, that they're being
(23:00):
paid or not, are the ones who survive and go
the furthest because down the road you're going to have
to have really solid material, and some people will have
it and some people again, some people are great at
editing and using all the tool that's great, but you
still have to have material to go along with it,
or you'll listen. There's a lot of these crowd work
(23:23):
comedians and a lot of these viral comedians. All of
them could be great, yeah, but they're being robbed of
their term in the wilderness to just figure out what
they want to do without people watching them. They're already
posting what they're doing, which they shouldn't be doing, and
they get booked in clubs. For these influencers get booked
in clubs and they realize this cause got ten minutes
of stuff and we booked them for an hour, And
(23:44):
that audience will leave not going I've never seen that
influence again. They will leave going I've never seen comedy again.
Oh yeah. And the people that keep writing no matter
what are the ones that will survive.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Why did the clubs close in the nineties.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Because they switched to a we are selling drinks model.
And when they switch to a we are selling drinks model,
that meant, we just need the audience loubed up and excited,
and they would start booking jugglers and comedy magicians and
R rated hypnotists and prop acts and giving away free
tickets radio station giveaways, and people would show up and
(24:23):
it was a disaster and it was more of a
spectacle than an actual show and the people and then
this is going to sound kind of elitist, but the
people that are maybe a little smarter and have the
kind of money to regularly go out for live entertainment
were driven away, and so those clubs couldn't sustain themselves.
And now a lot of these people coming up will
(24:44):
have no problem paper in the room and giving out
free tickets because they can sell merch after it, and
it's about the merch. But those people will never come
back to the show or a show. So this we're about,
I think to see another collapse. I think that Look,
there's some really amazing comedians working right now that are
filling stadiums, and they deserve to. There's some who don't,
(25:07):
there's some who do. But I don't think the stadium
model is going to sustain for very much longer, and
it's going to be the ones who can work in
the intimate clubs and small theaters that are going to
have the sustainability.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
When you started to find success in the alt scene
in LA, how did that come about? Like how'd you
jump from DC to LA and then?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
And what did that? What were those years? Like? Well,
I moved from DC in early ninety two because the
clubs were just gone, and I moved to San Francisco
where you could get on stage every night. And then
a year later in nineteenninety three, a half the clubs
in San Francisco had closed. Then the alt scene happened
in LA when the clubs really were closing and people
(25:53):
were just opening rooms and bookstores and laundromats and coffee
shops wherever they could find the stage. And there was
this real feeling of success because oh, I've found an
audience that was not going to the clubs, that is
hearing about this new thing and is actually able to
the audience had no expectations for the comedians, whereas before
that because they'd seen, you know, even at the improv
(26:16):
comedy on the road with a brick wall and a
certain rhythm, They're like, this is what comedy should be.
And now suddenly that rhythm was gone and there was
this really exciting like those were shows that even if
I wasn't on them, I would go and see them
because it was Sarah Sulferman and Tenacious D and Todd
Glass and you know, Jeanine Garoffalo and people doing genuinely
(26:37):
weird stuff on stage. I means. But interesting thing about
the alt scene, just like the TikTok scene, just like
the crowd work scene, there were certain alt comedians that
only stayed in the alt comedy rooms. There were these
hothouse flowers like, yes, I did alt comedy at the
Largo and Tempest and the Mbar, but I would still
go on the road and go do Pobs and go
(26:59):
do Charlie Good Nights, like I wanted that seasoning. And
there were a lot of these alt superstars that then
got booked for road gigs and realize, oh, the stuff
that works in the alt room, they don't want to
hear that. In Lincoln, Nebraska. You got to make every
crowd your crowd. That was a big thing with in
the alt scene, which was well, this just isn't iconic crowd.
(27:20):
It's like you got to find a way to make
every crowd, your crowd and get them. That's part of
the fun, is you win them over. How have the crowds.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Changed from then till now or the audiences I guess
both honestly, both in like in la or New York.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
And in the Lincoln Nebraska. It's weirdly similar now because
this country has become so tribal that you will see
shows booked as the non Woke Night or you know,
LGBTQ night, or like it's they're announcing their tribe in
the title, and that's who comes out, which is which
(27:55):
is kind of weird. It's a weird fracturing of the
audience that again we're going to have to live through,
and then the people that will come out the other
side of it again, I think people like Anthony Jezilneck
who just like that guy just writes amazing stuff. It
doesn't matter who's watching it. The jokes are so undeniable
and is also a lot of weird. The one thing
that you and I are from the last generation that
(28:17):
the word sellout means anything too, like we're the ones
where and you would like lose sleep, Like there's a
whole generation now that there's no such It's like you
get your bag no matter what they don't, and in
the idea of hypocrisy doesn't mean anything to them anymore.
You can rail against corporations and billionaires and then literally
go work do a private show for a billionaire and
(28:38):
nobody cares. It's this weird, it's this but again, it's
that's what's happening now. I think that engine will swing
the other way. But we're we're living in such an
a moral time that where truth doesn't matter anymore, that
people are kind of and also there is that underlying
panic of well, if everything is collapsing, shouldn't have grabbed
(29:01):
as much money as I can? Which that's all feet
but that's all fear based. But yeah, there's always you
know this showbiz. Every day is a rainy day, and
there are those moments where you're like, should I just
grab the money right now? You know? Who knows? But
like I did a bunch of ads for Caesar's in
(29:21):
Las Vegas for the bedding app and then I found
out actward like, oh god, there's like it's horrible gambling
and what the hell might like I didn't know it was.
The thing was like now I know better because I didn't.
I didn't gamble, so I didn't know. Oh it just
it just always fries you crazy.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
You should have just taken the Saudi money. That would
have solved everything. It should have just gone. Then you
would have saved us from the gambling addiction.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Oh my god, yes, exactly. I could have donated that
money to get gamblers Anonymous. This is again a very
very weird time that we're in right now.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
My only touch point with that the which is a
very very small note that I got a couple of times,
including from my writing partner Ramen, who's one of our
one of our guys on this team. So there's a
there's a there's a joke that I do about an
auntie that I have and I wrote, I wrote about
(30:21):
her in my book, but then also turned it into
a stand up bit.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
And when I.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Recount the story, I do voices of aunties who have
Indian accents. And I've gotten this note a couple of
times from young young younger, like not our age group
at all, Indian Americans who are like I was just
bummed out that he decided to just make it about
an accent. And my first reaction, I'm obviously defensive, about this.
(30:45):
But my first reaction is like, this was objectively funny
enough to be in my book, which you read with
your eyes, So so I think you need to calm
down a little bit. I'm also the like, look, in
the past, I have railed again things that I found
to be stereotypical or just, and most people miss the
fact that I find them to be stereotypical because they're
(31:06):
fucking boring, not because I'm thin skinned and offended by something.
But so it was interesting to process this note where
I have not yet tried this joke without what I
think is the authenticity of bringing the audience into that
living room.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
But also that's what she said. That is sound you, Yeah,
that's what she sounded like.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
You mentioned how stand ups are late night hosts have
had to take on this or people expect us to
take on this journalistic role because everyone's so anti news.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Can you can you expand on that a little bit? Well,
the news has been has become so blatantly not the
news anymore, or it's again it's tribal where I will
go for the news that I like, or I will
go for the news here that I like, or especially
I don't know if you've been watching CBS. It's just
open and armed for our administration. What I'm saying is
(32:03):
there's no one speaking truth to power in journalism because
even more than showbiz. Look, showbiz, I want access. I
want to be rich and famous. But now journalism wants
the access and wants to please the people in power
even more than I mean, there's still a lot of
comedians that are doing that, but a lot of comedians
because I think we can exist without worrying about in
(32:25):
the long run, we can exist without corporate sponsorship. If
you funny enough to book a room and live a
little smaller, not worry about some insane lifestyle, you can
get away with not having to answer to anybody. So yeah,
maybe you are looked at as he or she is
not tied to anybody. But I think that's a really
scary thing because that means we're going back toward medieval times.
(32:47):
Because in medieval times is when the gestures were the
truth tellers. But they were truth tellers in a way
that a lot of these comedian truth tellers are becoming now,
which is we're gonna do whatever we want to you.
We'll let this guy come out and say that I'm
fat or my hair looks stupid. See, then that make
everything even. You can all if you're the ruling class,
you can weaponize, ridicule, make it look like, see I'm
(33:11):
a good sport anyway, send that guy's kids off to war.
So that's really scary too. But there are so many
I forgot who said this. It was just amazing. I
shared it on my socials, but they were like George
Carlin had that great bit about how there's a big
club and you're not in it, and we have this
whole generation of comedians now going I've been in the
(33:32):
big club. I mean, those people are actually kind of
nice and I'd like to be friends with them, Like
that's kind of how that's what we've gone from. So
it is scary. I mean, I try to support as
much independent news sources and reporting as I can, but
we're in a very scary area right now because comedy
has often been used by tyrants and dictators to go,
(33:56):
see I'm funny to an human, come on, don't worry
about it.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
The second that satire started getting attacked was when I
think there was a bunch of eye rolling that that
sort of.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah, but it was even scary when satires started getting used,
look a lot of jen ux and a lot of
all comedy has got to eat the guilt and eat
the responsibility. For we used a lot of ironic racism
and a lot of ironic homophobia because we thought, well,
we elected a black guy, so racism is over, so
now we can make fun of racism ironically. And that
(34:29):
was the blueprint that people like the Proud Boys and
a lot of these online grapers and provocateurs use. Then
they're going to go it's just satires. It is satire,
but not to you. And I know what you're doing
right now.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
You've talked a bit about how comedies helped you through tragedy,
and I'm curious what else you love about being part
of this comedic community, and then what else do you
want to explore within your work looking forward?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Being a part of a comedian community is just as good,
if not better than actually being a comedian, because you
have access to also the most damaged, messed up but
aware of it, and can also go, oh, I've been
down this hole, I know the way out. I yeah,
this is nothing new. So when you go through some
(35:22):
real darkness, like I have both impersonal and then in
an existential way watching where reality is going. I'm on
threads with so many comedians on this phone that can
we can talk back and forth and joke, and it
keeps me sane as things feel like they're falling apart.
I don't think people had joke threads to text two
(35:43):
in nineteen thirty six in Vianna. The further things I
want to explore, I mean, I will never stop doing
stand up. What I've just come to realize in these
last couple of years is the new things that I'll
break through with in terms of standing up and in
terms of looking at comedy. I can't even predict what
(36:03):
those things are going to be. At this point. It
will be from me showing up two or three nights
a week, going on stage and getting comfortable enough to
then go to the next level and talk about the
next thing. I mean, there's stuff that I'm also learning
to change up my routine. My routine has always been
I write on stage, I go on stage. I kind
(36:23):
of work it on a stage. Now I'm like, well,
how about you try sitting down and writing. You've always
said in interviews, I can't sit and write jokes well,
What would happen if you started doing that? What would change?
Would anything new come of that? So I'm changing up
my technique and I also this year especially want to
start making films and directing both short films and feature films.
(36:45):
What I genuinely think is funny, because there are some
comedies that come out that I do think are brilliant,
but there's a lot right now. I think, especially film comedy,
is in a very weird, limbo type place where there's
a lot of IP and a lot of you know,
it's all just nudging you in the in the remember this,
you get this reference right, And there's no like genuinely new,
(37:08):
weird voices that aren't connected to anything referential. And I'm
saying that because I am just as guilty and my
stand up of doing jokes that are all about pop
culture references, and I realize what a blind cul de
sac that ends up being. I would rather really go
into like human flawed character stuff, you know, that's awesome,
(37:28):
more of that, So that's where I want to push it.
Weirdly enough, you got to do film comedies during the
last time where they could make mid level budgeted comedies
and start like now, that's kind of going away. You
either have to make some Oh they only spent seventy
grand and that's part of the ad campaign, or it's
one hundred billion dollar IP and that's what it is.
(37:52):
But there's no like fifteen million dollars. And these guys go,
what's the what's the plot? They got a white castle
and a bunch of stuff goes wrong? Like, is no,
that's it? And you know that, Oh we need those
kind of movies. They agree, Yeah, there's nothing in the
middle right now, which is very frustrating. Yeah, what a
Harold and Kumar learned? They literally don't learn it. They
don't learn anything. They are they are, if anything, already
(38:13):
they might be even dumber at the end, which which
again is so real.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
You're like, that's me, yes, So why do you say
you you'll never stop doing stand up.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Because this is truly one of the few arts where
your age, I don't think matters. It is if you
are being honest with whatever you're dealing with at that moment,
you are vital and hilarious on stage. When my early
albums are all about I'm never getting married, and then
I'm I'm married, We're never having kids? My daughters like you.
(38:43):
There you are, you were checking in on your life
and see and if anything, it's even funny when you
see all the contradictions as you grow older with a complicated,
self negating person you are. If you grow and grow
and grow and change. So I can't wait to see
what I'm going to be, how I will view the
world when I'm eighty nine years old. That's going to
be fascinating to me. I don't know. You don't have
(39:04):
to retire from this profession. It's great, Thanks man, This
is really fun. I really appreciate you doing this, and
I was really surprised. I did not know you had
started doing stand up. So getting to stay out talk
to someone who's going to experience for the first time
a lot of stuff that I did, that's going to
be really fascinating. Thank you. That's going to be really
You've got some very interesting times ahead of you, and
(39:26):
it will feedback into your writing and into your acting
in ways you can't see. Covy.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
That was the incredible paton Oswalt, Emmy and Grammy winning
American stand up comedian, actor, writer and voice actor. Here
we Go Again as a production of iHeart Podcasts and
Snaffo Media in association with New Metric Media.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Our executive producers.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Are me Kelpen Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Alissa Martino, Andy Kim,
Pat Kelly, Chris Kelly, and Dylan Fagan. Meghan tan Is
our producer and writer. Dave Shumka is our producer and editor.
Our consulting producer is Romin Borsolino. Tory Smith is our
associate producer. Theme music by Chris Kelly, logo by Matt Gosson,
(40:13):
Legal review from Daniel Welsh, Caroline Johnson and Megan Halson.
Special thanks to Glenn Bassner, Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane
Klein and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson,
Carrie Lieberman and Nikki Etour. Thanks for listening. Everybody, tell
your friends write a review. All of this helps. I
appreciate you listening, and until we go again, I'm Kelpenn
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