June 8, 2026 • 51 mins
A landlord claimed that his daughter was haunted, by the deceased wife of a former tenant. Most shocking of all, this ghost was accusing her husband of murder. Ghosts aren't real (most of the time, sorry), but murders plots can be very, very real. But who is the real murderer here?
SOURCES:
Gentlemen’s Magazine archives (by Samuel Johnson)
“Ghostly Hands and Ghostly Agency,” Jennifer Bann
“Missionaries, Methodists, and a Ghost,” Travis Glasson
“We See a Ghost: Hogarth’s Satire on Methodists and Connoisseurs,” Bernd Krysmanski
“Samuel Johnson and Spectral Media,” Rachael Scarborough King
Elizabeth [called the Cock Lane Ghost], Oxford Dictionary of National Biography
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You are listening to Hoax, a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Folks, it's a hug no one I have seen.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
When us to see this last? Welcome to Hoax, a
podcast about the lies we wish we're.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
True and truths that sound like lies.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I'm the ghost of Danish Wartz.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
And I'm the evil twin of Lizzie Logan.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Welcome to the show, Lizzie. We're doing a ghost story today, Spooky.
It's a classic summer spook.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Summer spook.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
You know it's it's June when this episode's gonna come out? Okay,
and why not just do summer Halloween Summer Okay, great
summer Halloween in July. It's like what I feel like
Disney Channel used to do.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I'm excited. I feel like ghost stories are great for
when you're at summer camp around the fire.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Perfect. I want to bring your memory back to when
we did Spirit Photography, an older episode where we talked
about the American tradition, especially during the Civil War, of
people taking photographs allegedly with ghosts. Do you recall this episode?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I recall it quite well. A peek behind the curtain.
I listened to all of our episodes many times, because
not only do I give feedback on cuts and then
listen to them when they're out, because I really like
our show.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It's a good show. It's a good show. We enjoy it.
We make a product that we enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I think our show is good. But yeah, so I
remember spirit photography. What aspect of it is going to
come into play this week?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Well, I think, just for context, just think about how
in the middle of the nineteenth century in America, the
spiritualism movement was coming into full force. And famously there
were these sisters called the Fox Sisters in America doing
like rapping ghosts, not wrapping like lin Manuel Miranda, like
rapping at a door like the raven And that was
in like eighteen forty eight, gotcha, And that sort of
(02:01):
launches the spiritualism movement in the United States. But one
hundred years earlier, okay, in the seventeen hundreds, there's a
ghost haunting in England that sets the scene, I will argue,
sets the scene for the American spiritualism movement. Okay, that's
my argument.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I'm sure you're gonna convince me. Is this so we're
talking mid eighteen set like the seventeen.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Hundred like seventeen sixties.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Okay, So if we're in the middle of the seventeen
hundreds in England, like what other spooky things are people
believing in? Like what? Like when when was the most
recent witch trial?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Okay? So when I hear like witch trials in England,
I mostly associate that with King James the First and
sixth James the First of England, sixth of Scotland, and
that's like sixteen hundreds.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
The last witch trial in England happens in seventeen seventeen,
and the last execution happened back in six eighty two. Okay,
So I think people believe in witches still.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And it's maybe not as criminalized.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, by now by this story is going to take
place in the seventeen sixties. This is a more rational
enlightened as they're claiming time. I don't think people are,
you know, they might believe in magic, and certainly people
believe in ghosts and spirits, but I also think there's
a trendier move towards more rational approaches.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I think rationality is very trendy, and actually the divide
in the Anglican Church between those people who sort of
still believe in spiritual mysticism, and those that don't will
become a major part of this episode because the people
that don't, the more conservative people, will see this sort
of spiritualism thing as frankly a little Catholic.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, this is one of those things where I like,
I hope this isn't like offensive to say, because I
know that people have like died because of this argument.
But so many of the squabbles between Protestants and Catholics,
as a Jew, really are just like so silly to me,
where I'm like, you're arguing about different brands of like
(04:18):
the same of belief, of the same, but of the
same like thing that if you really get down to it,
like I'm not trying to pooh pooh people's faith, but
like this thing of like no, this guy talks to God.
It's like, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
And Lizzie, you will be gratified to know this episode
is about an even smaller subset of disagreements between Protestants. Okay,
this is about the more conservative Anglicans and the Methodist
movement that emerges in England about this time, and ghosts
and ghosts. I have to learn a lot about methodists,
which is not a sentence I really ever thought I would,
(04:54):
I would say, but let me transport you back to
seventeen fifty six. Okay, a man named William Kent who's
a usurer. He's like a loans money to people for
his job. Mary's a woman, she's pregnant, and when she's pregnant,
her sister Fanny moves in.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
The woman dies in childbirth, unfortunately, very sad, in common,
very common. They were only married for eleven months. The
poor baby dies just shortly thereafter. But William Kent falls
in love with his erstwhile sister in law, Fanny, okay,
who had been living with her.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
And you know, if you have a type, I guess
like the sisters are probably pretty similar.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, and they fall in love. But the problem is,
by canon law, you cannot marry a sister and then
also her sister.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
That seems really specific.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Well, I mean, talk to King Henry the eighth divorcing
Catherine of Aragon after she had married his older brother,
Oh right, the whole thing. Oh right, But Fanny after,
you know, after her sister dies, there's no reason for
her to stay with her brother in law, and he
more she goes back to her family. He goes down
to London to quote unquote like seek advice to see
(06:06):
if they could get married. And they keep writing back
and forth and he's like, we can't be together, and
she's like, but I'm still in love with you, and
wouldn't you know it? And this is a pretty bad
example for all women everywhere. Her being like, I still
want to be with you. It works and he's like, okay,
come down to London. So he sends for her. She
comes down to London and they agree that they're gonna
(06:28):
They can't legally get married, but you can't live with someone.
It just isn't proper like a So they're just like,
we're just going to keep it on the dial. Yeah,
And they live together as mister and missus Kent, even
though they are not married.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
A source that described it I thought very aptly said
it was quote no crime to indulge their mutual passion
for each other, and it is acknowledged that they did
cohabit together as man and wife. It's no crime to
indulge mutual passion.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
I mean, from my you know, heathen perspective, this seems
like a pretty victimless crime.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
They make wills in each other's favor. They basically do
everything they can do to make themselves married without being married,
So they make wills in each other's favor. And it's
worth noting that, according to a contemporary source, the young
lady would have been a considerable gainer had she survived,
his fortune being a great deal. More so, they make
wills in each other's favor. But he's not like a
(07:28):
gold digger.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
They try to find a place to live together. The
first place doesn't work out because it.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Seems like it would be such a good season of Bridgerton.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Oh right, but of course, you know, it's like you
ask someone to be their mistress. That's not very romantic.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well, that's like the most recent season of Bridgerston. Are
you caught up on?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Caught up on Bridgerton?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
But it's like and then they have to go live
together in the country.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
In the country, Yeah, okay, anyway, Well, they find a
place to live together. It doesn't work out because William
Kent is a usurer and he loans money to his
landlord and then his landlord does not pay him back
and he has to sue his landlord. And gets him arrested.
So because like, okay, we need a new place to live.
And so while they are struggling to find a new
(08:12):
place to live, it's also possible, I want to note
that the landlord found out that they weren't actually married,
and we don't have proof of that, but it's a
possibility that some people bring up. But they needed a
new place to live, and that's where they meet the
clerk at the church of wait for it, Saint Sepulcher
without Newgate. That's the name of the church.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Sure, I don't know why you have to add the
without newgate part if if it doesn't have Newgate, just
just say Saint Sepulcher. But this is England.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Maybe it's like describing the location. Yeah, within Nugat is
like within the town of Nugat and then this is
just outside, just outside of.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Like okay to Lizzie Logan being very smart.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Okay, sorry.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So the couple meet the c and his name is
Richard Parsons and he says, I have a property you
can live at. He'd had basically a house with multiple
stories and offered them lodging at his residence on Cock Lane. Okay, great,
and This is the point of the episode where I'd
want to be like, oh, it's called Cocklane, isn't that funny?
It's actually because blah blah blah. But it's called cocklane
(09:21):
because historically this is where the sex workers were. You know,
this is why it's called that. There's no like, there's
no like non sexual explanation. But at this point it
is no longer where sex workers are. It is where
a clerk at a church would live. Okay, cool, And
he lives with his wife and two daughters. There's only
(09:41):
one daughter that's relevant to the story. Her name is Elizabeth.
Oh my god, she's a such a good name. Ten
or eleven. She's sometimes known as Betty, but just for
the sake of clarity, most sources refer to her as Elizabeth.
So we'll say Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Song by Taylor Swift.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah, so, so far things are going great. The mister
and missus Kent with air quotes are living at this
house under you know, Richard Parson's Kent loans Parsons twelve guineas. Apparently,
some sources claim that Richard Parsons has a bit of
a drinking problem, and that will come up later. But
(10:17):
the first ghost encounter will happen. Well, William Kent goes
out of town for a wedding, and they ask for
some reason, they don't want his wife, who's pregnant at
this time, Fanny, to be alone, and so they have
Elizabeth come stay with Fanny. So it's like, you know,
this eleven year old girl and the pregnant woman, so
she's not alone. William is off in the country. Elizabeth
(10:39):
and Fanny are in bed together like having a slumber party,
and Elizabeth hears knocking, like banging from somewhere bookie, and
she's terrified. She shouts, I don't want to be taken away.
They ask missus Parsons, Elizabeth's mom like, hey, we heard
banging by the way, and they were like, well, it's
just thebler next door.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
But okay. Then they seeing some midnight cobbler, Well that's it.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
And then they see the cobbler and they were like, hey,
were you cobbling? Yeah, and he says no, uh huh.
And then a landlord of a nearby pub visits the
house and says he saw a white figure on the stairs. Spooky,
and then mister Parsons says, that's so weird. I also
saw a white figure on the stairs. Okay, so it's
(11:28):
seventeen sixty. Fanny, who's pregnant, is a few weeks away
from giving birth, and so they decide to move out
to like a more suitable house for her.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
To have a big raise the begin I'm rooting for
this couple, by the way. Yeah, their love is pure
in my eyes.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Well, the hard part if you are rooting for them.
On Jane twenty fifth, she falls ill. Yeah, they discover
she has smallpox. What it's it's seventeen sixty, the people
get smallpox.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
What.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Her sister lives quote unquote reputably in Paull Mall, which
is like a fancy neighborhood, which I take to meet.
She's another sister, her sister Fanny's yes, her others because
I was like, her sister is dead. Okay, she has
another sister, and she has a few brothers. Okay, big family.
Her living sister lives reputably on Paull Mall and which
(12:21):
I take to me, and is married to someone legitimately,
and she's told that her sister's sick and where she lives.
Fanny had not told her family where she was because
they were not happy about the fact that she was
running away with this man she could not marry. But
her sister here's where she is and is quote overjoyed
(12:42):
to hear of her and runs to see her. And
she's told that her sister is doing well, that she's
making a turn for the better. But the next day
she makes a turn for the worst and she dies
on February second, seventeen sixty And so her sister, who
had recently reconnected with her, the funeral, and there are
a few things that she's a little suspicious.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Of, and she she died pregnant.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yes, she died pregnant. Very sad.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
That is so sad.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
And again the family, her family, her living siblings, were
not a fan of William Kent, her husband, because he
stole even though she was writing to him being like
I love you he air quotes stole her away to
live in sin So the sister goes to the funeral
and she's surprised that the coffin doesn't have a plate
(13:33):
on it, like a plate that is like the little
engraving that says the name. And she also says something
is I wish that I could have gotten to see
the body by the time I got to the funeral,
the coffin was already screwed down. Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Is that for cleanliness reasons because smallpox is contagious.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
It also is probably because you're not you don't look
good when you have if you die from smallpox.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, I wouldn't think so.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
And the no plate on the coffin is most likely
because William Kent would be prosecuted if the true nature
of their relationship got out. They were like living in sin,
committing fraud, so a name on the coffin would be
kind of confusing, like would you say Fanny Kent or
would you not? So the siblings all get very upset
(14:21):
at this man who didn't marry their sister, had their
sister living in sin dining. He locked her up and
knocked her up, knocked her up, thank you. And now
because they had made their wills out to each other,
he gets, as I quote, their sister's fortune to the
prejudice of her brothers and sisters, all who lived in
(14:43):
perfect harmony until this unhappy affair happened. And what I'm
quoting now is a basically a gossip rag from seventeen
sixty counting the story. But what the siblings say, is
we all get along. There's no ill will with the siblings,
So why would she leave all of her money to
you who by the way, she was not even married to, right,
And they're upset because her fortune. She had another brother
(15:07):
who died, and so she got some of his estate,
some of his inheritance. She got one hundred and fifty
pounds from her dead brother's estate some land that he
had owned, and then kent her. Sue's pseudo husband gets
in a fight with the family about how much she
actually stood to inherit and they're arguing about the equivalent
(15:29):
of about sixty five thousand pounds today. So not of fortune,
but also not nothing, right.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I mean, yeah, I guess I get the feeling of, like,
you guys weren't even married. That's like family money that
should stay in the family. Yeah, But it's also I
also like, it's her money. She can leave it to
whoever she wants exactly. I don't know. Arguing over people's
(15:58):
wills is so weird because it's like it's their death.
They can do whatever they like. People can do whatever
they want with the money if they want.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
But the brother the siblings are not happy because it's
like their dead brother's money. That's going to this stranger
who had their sister living in sin Yeah, and one
of the brothers, John Lynes, sues Kent.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
So there's some like annoying family Inheritan stuff going on,
and people make a few The sister makes a few
suspicious comments, being like they said she was getting better
and then she just died all of a sudden hmmm.
And to be fair, she was examined before the sister
even arrived by a quote worthy clergyman who was like,
(16:39):
this is deadly smallpox. She is going to die from this.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, this doesn't sound super suspicious to me.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
They're scientists. There are some rams scientists.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
And there's some messiness in the situation.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
But he doesn't sound like a murder.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
He doesn't sound like a murderer, although again not murderer.
He remarries in seventeen sixty one classic you know, I mean,
men are men, you know, just no man. But and
his legal troubles continue because yet again he had lent
money to his landlord and his landlord didn't pay him
back because when he had been living with Parsons, he
(17:15):
had three guineas outstanding from alone, which he had to
sue to get back, and he does, but it was
like a whole annoying thing, and it was the equivalent
of about eight hundred pounds that they're arguing about that
they have to go to court for. So it's settled,
but it was annoying. Okay, And that's the preamble to
when the real haunting starts. Okay, So we had seen
(17:43):
a ghost on the stairs, a woman in white. We
had heard this recD woman in white. Yes, okay, because
you said a white figure, a white figure who is
later described as a woman in Okay, Parsons starts talking
at the pub and telling people that Fannies ghost is
haunting his house. Oh, Fanny, the pregnant woman who died
(18:04):
of smallpox, is haunting both the house and his daughter Elizabeth.
Oh my, Elizabeth is hearing noises again, that same banging.
That is not the cobbler next door, and it's the
ghost of Fanny. And Parsons declares that that ghost they
had seen before was actually the ghost of her sister,
the first wife of mister Kent, who had been reaching
(18:26):
out to warn her. So they are like, something is
happening here. He reaches out to the assistant preacher at
the church. He works at St. Sepulcher's without Saint Sepulcher,
without Newgate, and the assistant preacher is named John Moore.
And they also bring in this other guy, Thomas Broughton.
(18:47):
And the reason that I'm naming these preachers even by
name and not just being like and they brought some
preachers in to examine is because these are Anglican preachers,
like they're preachers within the Church of England with Methodist sensibilities.
And this is pretty important, that.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Is a Methodist sensibility.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
So Methodism is emerging as a movement within the Anglican
Church at this minute, and it's basically a more spiritual
not in America we would call it like Christian Revival,
but it's a little less strict and rigid and orthodox
than Anglicanism at this time. And it's associated with tales
(19:29):
of the supernatural.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Oh interesting, But.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
The story that Parsons tells that hey, the wife, the
dead wife of this woman is haunting my house, and
the public ledger, which is like a broadsheet, begins publishing accounts.
People begin gossiping about whether Kent is a murderer.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
That's so crazy.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
So the source that I'm going to sort of describe
this seance of how they communicate with the ghost comes
from Gentlemen's Magazine in January of seventeen sixty two. So
apparently the group of gentlemen who are going to examine
and hold a seance come to find Elizabeth in bed
and they say the spirit being at hand and they
want to ask the spirit several questions, and so we
(20:15):
have a group together and it's declared that it's about
twenty people, including two to three clergymen and two black people.
They use a different word for black people. And the
only the only reason I actually am even saying that
is as like a fun fact. I read an article
that posits we have no evidence of this, but it's
very likely that this man, Philip Quay Quay, who was
(20:37):
the first African man ever ordained as a priest in
the Church of England, was at the seance. Okay, go Philip, Yeah,
because he was in London living with John Moore at
the time. So Jackie Robinson of Methodism, Yeah, so if
there was a black man at the seance, people are like,
it probably was him. Great, which is interesting. That is interesting, fun,
interesting fact. So this group of about twenty men, including
(20:58):
two to three preachers clergyman, examine the bed and bedcloths
and don't see any visible appearance of deceit. Elizabeth is
put into bed where she says the hauntings take place,
and the bed begins to shake, and they hear knocking,
and they'd say they're going to ask questions. An answer
is given by knocking or scratching. One knock means yes,
(21:19):
two knocks means no, and scratching means she's upset.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Like a cat.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
So they say, were you brought to an untimely end
by poison? One knock yes, And then they say in
what was the poison administered? Beer or pearl? And pearl
is like an alcoholic beverage, like Jim to look that up,
And she said pearl, I guess by yeah, whichever nick.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
One for the first answer to for the second?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah. And then they say was it your husband who
killed you? Yes? There, yeah, astonishing she's accusing.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Incredible and then incredible the way this ghost is answering
leading questions, leading question.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Well, ghosts can only answer yes or no question, otherwise,
how would you communicate?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
How would you boss?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
They ask more basic ghost questions. She says, like, I
was not legally married to Kent. No other persons were
concerned in the poisoning. The ghost would follow Elizabeth everywhere
and then they were like are you pleased in answering
our questions? Does it ease your mind?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
And she's like yes, okay, great, and then that this
is a consensual seance.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
And then they also they ask the ghost if the
person called Carrots was able to give information about the
poison and she says yes. And Carrots is the nickname
for the servant who lived with them because she had
red hair. It's not her real name, but I like
be her name is Carrots and that she is in
the record as Carrots, And so they were like, Carrots
has more information, and then they get they go to
(22:45):
Carrots and bring her to the ghost and Karrots is like,
I don't know anything about this. I actually do not
have any more information, and they were like, ghosts, do
you have something to say about this? And ghost is speechless.
They also ask the ghost would it ease your mind
if the accused confessed yes? Would it ease your mind
if the accused was hanged? Yes?
Speaker 2 (23:09):
If they killed this guy based on testimony of a ghost.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Well, so here's the thing. These stories are being printed
all over London, right, this is a very popular, scandalous,
gossipy story. Yeah, but I want to be clear, this
is not like people in the past were stupid and
everyone was falling for this. Because at the end of
this gentleman's magazine that I was reading that like was
a contemporary source for this, they said the last sentence
(23:35):
was as the impostor will soon probably be discovered. Let
this short detail suffice to show the tendency of it.
The whole of the nonsense would fill a magazine. So okay, Like,
it's a funny, fun funny story. Some people seem to
really believe it, but like, I think it's a mistake
to be like everyone believed in ghosts. No, I don't.
(23:57):
I'm not saying that.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I just know that, like people can get ideas in
their heads and like stir up and like a fervor.
And then I'm thinking the way like internet mobs can
like attack people based on rumors, and like it would
not surprise me if someone just went out and stabbed
this guy and was like justice for your wife, and
(24:21):
then it was like, oh, that was based on like
the testimony of a ghost, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
And kent to his in his defense is like taking
this seriously, yeah, because again this is like his life
and reputation. He goes to one of these seances with
the preacher and when the ghost says that he'll be hanged,
he says, thou art a lying spirit. Thou art not
the ghost of my family. She never would have said
any such things. Yeah, like he he is in this
(24:47):
and he is upset, and he's also like a widower.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, like you're torturing this guy who's like wife and
like unborn child just died of smallpox. Yeah, like this
is so mean.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
And also I mean she's not in this story, but
to think that he also just got married to someone else.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, he's grief Like, but I'm.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Like this poor third wife be like, oh, that ghost
of the dead wife is coming back accusing him of
poisoning her. Meanwhile, Cocklane becomes a massive tourist attraction. People
wait in line to.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Do what to talk to the talk to the ghost.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
People wait in line for hours to talk to the ghost,
and Parsons allegedly charges them to ask the ghost questions
that the ghost would answer with.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
No, people kind of believe.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, a lot of people believe, especially Methodists.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
It becomes sort of a the she's known as scratching
Fanny of Cocklane. Okay, I'm so sorry. I mean a
great series of words put together, and she sort of
becomes a cause that the Methodist movement takes on as
proof of the spiritual afterlife.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
There's a lot of distinguished guests to come, including Horace Walpole,
who's like a famous person from this time, but he thinks.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Sherlock Holmes probably and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Hitter.
Here's a little barnum.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Walpole says that he kind of thinks this is all
Methodist nonsense, and he said it's a drunk parish clerk
set it on foot.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
There'd be a Methodist in his madness. All right, I'm
really sorry, please continue.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah, his take on this is that a drunk parish
clerk set it on foot out of revenge. The Methodists
have adopted it, and the whole town of London think
of nothing else. And I'm like, yes, correct, Okay. But meanwhile,
there's like several requests from more professional people to intercede,
like even the Lord Mayor of London is like, hey,
we need to figure something out. And Kent, the man
(26:47):
who's being accused of murdering his wife, is like, I
want to set the record straight.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
And so Stephen Aldrich, who's the local parish priest in Clerkenwell,
who's like a bigger deal. He's more or Doc's Anglicans,
so he's not in this methodist nonsense. He invites a
group together to investigate.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Investigate the ghost. The ghost okay, because I was like,
in terms of investigating the death, when are there cops
at this time? Like, why are priests in charge of
all of them?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
They're not investigating the death yet, Okay, they're just investigating the.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Ghost because yeah, okay, great priests are who you call
for per a ghost, that's who that's the ghost buster.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, Anglican priest.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Okay, they are afraid of no ghosts.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
And so On February first, seventeen sixty two, quote, many
gentlemen eminent for their rank and character assemble for an examination.
And the most famous man in this assemblage assembly is
a man named Samuel Johnson. Does that name mean anything
to you?
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah? But I feel like there's like so many Samuel's
and so many Johnson's that it almost rings too many bells.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Well, big deal. He's the created the Dictionary of the
English Language seventeen fifty five. Heard of the dictionary.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
I thought some guid named what mister created the dictionary,
And that's why his name is on the dictionary.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
He gets there eventually, but Johnson did it first. Okay.
And also Johnson had a biographer named Boswell whollowed him everywhere. Anyway,
Johnson is a big deal at this time. He's like
the intellectual heavy hitter of the mid seventeen hundreds. And
in terms of ghosts, he I think he's like not
not a believer. He says, quote undecided whether or not
(28:26):
there has ever been an instance of the spirit of
any person appearing after death. All argument is against it,
but all belief is for it. So that's what he believes.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
He's like, I know there's no evidence, but like you
kind of want to believe, right sure. And also this
haunting is happening a few streets from his house, Okay.
So he's so he's like, I'd like to know what's up.
I'd like to know it's up. He's very curious.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Something strange in your neighborhood. Who you gonna call Samuel Johnson? Okay,
Samuel Johnson.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
At ten pm, this group of men meet in the
bedroom with Elizabeth and they sit for an hour and
hear no bangs, and then they go downstairs to talk
to Parsons, and they're like, this is a fraud, right,
And he says, no, I have no idea about anything.
And the ghost earlier in one of the earlier Q
and A sessions, had promised to knock on the coffin
(29:16):
containing Fanny's body and as like a token of her presence.
And so basically they are like, should we go down
to the vaults to see the see if she's banging
on the coffin. And while they're deciding, they're called back
into the bedroom because there's knocks and scratches that start up,
(29:37):
and Elizabeth says she feels the spirit like a mouse
upon her back. They tell the girl to hold her
hands and feet out of the bed and from then
no noises. According to Samuel Johnson, who wrote about this,
he says, from that time, though the spirit was very
solemnly required to manifest its existence by appearance, by impression
(29:57):
on the hand or body of any present by scratches, knocks,
or any other agency. No evidence of any preternatural power
was exhibited. So then they tell the spirit, okay, you're
done banging here, but go bang on the coffin. So
at one am they all go into the church vault
to see the coffin and nothing happens, and they're like, okay,
(30:20):
so there's a fraud. Yeah, And they go back to
the girl like it's a lame ghost. It's not much
of a ghost. They go back to Elizabeth, the young
girl again is like eleven at this time, eleven or twelve,
and they're like, confess, and she does not, but Samuel
Johnson makes the determination. He says, it is therefore the
opinion of the whole assembly that the child has some
(30:42):
art of making or counterfeiting particular noise, and that there
is no agency of any higher cause. So at this
point people are like, this is a hoax. Most like
intelligent people, okay, and they think that Elizabeth is doing it. Yeah,
so it couldn't just be that like someone was in
the walls. They don't know how it's happening, okay. But
(31:05):
also she's going, she's gone from house to house. She's done,
sance is a few different locations.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Oh okay, and she's the common denominator.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yes, But as they asked the ghost, they said like,
will you follow Elizabeth wherever she goes? And the ghost
is like, yep, he's like my daughter's being haunted by
the ghost of fans right.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
So most like what we would call rational people at
this point agree that there's a hoax happening. There are
still some people who do believe, especially like Methodists, to
have taken on this ghost as part of their as
part of their cause. It's part of evidence, and they
claim like, well, her body was moved, that's why the
coffin didn't didn't bang. Someone had secretly moved her body. Oh,
(31:46):
like her body had been removed from the coffin. Oh
and that's their theory. Yeah, they're they're not citing that
she was moved. They're like, oh, the only explanation is
that she was moving.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Okay. So that's like a conspiracy.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
It's it's that thing of when you believe something, you
come up which is making more evidence. But at this point, Moore,
who was the reverend from St. Sepulcher's, tells Kent like, look,
I believe this ghost is a hoax, and Kent says,
this is ruining my life. Yeah, write down what you
know please. At first, Moore does not want to because
(32:17):
he still thinks that the spirit. He's like, Okay, I
think this is a hoax, but I still think there
is a spirit, and I still think that the spirit's
presence is a reminder of the sin, the fact that
you lived out of wedlock.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Let the man like wedlock. People get too hung up
on wedlock.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
You know, I will ask you to read. Eventually he
will make a full retraction. And this is the retraction
if you'd like to read it, which I find very thorough.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Okay, injusice to the person whose reputation has been attacked
in a most gross manner by the pretended ghost in
cock Lane, to check the credulity of the week, to
defeat the attempts of the delicious, and to prevent further
imposition on account of this absurd phenomenon, I do hereby
(33:06):
certify that, though from the several attendances on this occasion,
I have not been able to point out how and
in what manner these knockings and scratchings of the supposed
ghost were contrived, performed, and continued. Yet that I am
convinced that these knockings and scratchings were the effects of
some artful, wicked persons.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
So he's basically saying, look, every it's like when it's
like when a celebrity has sent their fans on someone
and then it's like, guys, peace and love, only when
they're like belaying someone. So he's basically like, guys, this
has gone too far. You have to stop with Ken's reputation. Yeah,
I don't know how the hoax is happening. I'm not involved,
but I do think it's a hoax. Yeah, he's not
(33:48):
taking responsibility.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Well he didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Well maybe, oh did he? I don't know, but I'm
just saying he was like one of the first people
that you're like ghost ghost ghosts. He at least could
have been like taking responsibility for how he publicized it
and how he legitimized it. Yeah, Parsons at this point
knows that now that More made this statement, now that
Samuel Johnson and his committee made their statement, that his
(34:11):
back is kind of against the wall. So he allows
Elizabeth to be examined a few more times at a
few different houses, a few different locations. They examine her
in a few different ways, but basically, the long and
short of it is, the noises always stop when Elizabeth
has her hands outside.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Of the bed. Okay, so she's doing it with her hands.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
And okay. They at this point investigators are like, enough
is enough, and they tell this twelve year old girl like, okay,
if she's in this bed, no noises are happening. And
they say, okay, well, if the ghost doesn't make any
noises by Sunday, your father's going to be imprisoned. And
then like boy, blow and behold the banging start and
(34:52):
the maids see her concealing a small piece of wood
and she's just been banging it under the covers. It's
six inches by four inch and she's been banging it
against like the side.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Of the bed. What an elaborate ruse.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
It's a very simple plan, the maids tell the investigators.
Turns out she was a twelve year old girl just
doing this at the behest of her father. Kent, meanwhile,
is still trying to clear his name. He literally gets
a group together to go into the vault again and
expose Fanny's corpse because people are still claiming that there
(35:25):
was no knocking because her body had been secretly removed,
and they're like, nope, there she is, and that is
actually what had prompted John Moore to be like, okay,
I will make a formal statement. This is gone too far.
You just like had to dig I mean not dig
up because she was an a vault, but like bring
up the disinter disinter the smallpox corpse of your ex
(35:46):
wife X not x common law wife, common law wife.
So even with that public retraction that John Moore made,
he is still arrested along side Parsons Missus Parsons, Mary Fraser,
and a local tradesman named Richard James, and they're charged
(36:06):
with conspiracy because the charges brought by William Kent. Basically,
William Kent sues them, yeah, for a conspiracy to take
away his life by charging him with the murder of
France's lines by giving her poison whereof she died.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
So William Kent, yea the widower widower Susan sues all
the people who did the hoax.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
For basically trying to kill him, trying to get him
hang for making up a rumor about him being a murderer. Yes,
I'm on his side. Yeah, yeah, they made it.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
You shouldn't be able to just accuse people of.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Stuff, and I mean it's a pretty clear motive. Again,
he had Parsons had taken out alone and not paid
it back. Yeah, and he had sued him and then
he was like, well fuck you, yeah, you and your
wife were living out of wedlock. Yeah, and so he
sues them. The name if you didn't remember, Mary Fraser's
one of the maids and the rich James was like
(37:01):
a local tradesman. Take carrot now, okay, carrots had no involvement. Okay,
good for care and carrots was Fanni's made. Okay, good
for carrots. Richard James was like a local tradesman who
had written some of the more incendiary material for the
public ledger. So he's the one who's planting stories.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
That the current press needs to take a note from
this story because you know, I wasn't gonna talk about
Blake Lively. But you can't just make stuff up about people.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
You can't just make stuff up. You gotta fact check these,
check your sources. Lizzie, how do you think the jury
found Uh?
Speaker 2 (37:39):
I think they probably found not guilty because they were
religious and didn't want to say that it's impossible that
there's ghosts.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Fifteen minutes guilty for all five, okay. The two John Moore,
the preacher and Richard James just pay five hundred and
eighty eight pounds in damages to quote like purchase their
pardon and they're dismissed with a severe reprimand so they
get like a fine and a warning bear missus. Parsons
gets one year in prison. Mary Fraser, who's like a
(38:10):
maid who helped out, gets six months okay, and Parsons
is sentenced to two years prison and the pillary three times.
What the pillary is, yeah, with the with the tomatoes.
Well that's the thing. Even at this point he claims
to be innocent, and he sent into the pillary three times,
and apparently when he's in the pillary usually people are
(38:30):
like tomatoes, tomatoes. But allegedly the crowd treats him like
very kindly and collects money for him because a lot
of the crowd were still believers.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Interesting, I mean, well that's their business, but they're but
they don't make Elizabeth do anything right now, she's a child.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
I was just asked to do this at the behest
of her father.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
All right, fault I, you know what, go eighteenth century
justice stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
What's interesting about this case and how it existed in
the popular culture of the eighteenth century is that Scratching
Fanny became this proxy war for Anglicans and Methodists. Yeah,
so Anglicans are like, as I said, like these Methodists
are getting pretty Catholic over here, because the Anglican Church
of England by this time had sort of fallen away
(39:20):
from the supernatural in favor of more rationalism, and Methodists
were still about folk remedies and spiritual healing and did
still believe in witches. Yeah, but most, like most of
like the literati and like the cultured people of this
time were anti Methodists, especially some like cartoonists. So Hogarths,
(39:41):
who's like a famous cartoonist, makes several illustrations involving Scratching
Fanny and the cock Lane Ghost that are indirect attacks
on Methodist ministers.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Yeah. Is it sort of like that classic like upper class,
lower class thing of like being dis missive of folklore
and like midwives versus doctors and like, oh you people
with your rural medical practices and listening to the spirits
(40:14):
of the elders. We here in the upper classes have
whatever whatever I mean like in this case, I agree, but.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
That's also kind of like I think, yes, and I
also think it's kind of a dismissal of like the masses,
the hoi POLLOI yeah, because so Walpole, who is like
one of the people who examined earlier, makes a note
about the Kochlan ghosts and kind of he thinks that
the Methodists are sort of using it cynically. He says,
the Methodists were glad to have such a key to
the credulity of the mob.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
I agree, yeah, I mean they were just using it
to get at this guy who all he did was
fall in love with his dead wife's sister.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Well, what I think happened, in simplest terms, is this
guy who owned the property the landlord didn't pay a
debt back, was mad at the guy, tried to get
revenge on him by inventing a ghost story. And then
because it reinforced like a version of the world that
Methodists wanted to believe in, not only that the spiritual
(41:15):
afterlife is closer to us than we realized, but also
like see the sin of the people living out of wedlock,
that they took it and ran with it.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
Yeah, when it maybe got out of hand.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah, Like I think Parsons was just like I want
to get revenge on this guy who sued me over
a debt. Yeah, And the Methodists were kind of as
a movement, Like what I found interesting was Okay, So
there was this guy named George Bell who was part
of the Methodist movement, and then he claimed that he
had reached Christian perfection and was experiencing visions and he
himself had spiritual powers, and even the founder of the
(41:48):
Methodism movement like disavowed him. But as a historian wrote
with Bell, it's an example of how difficult it was
to distinguish religious zeal and visionary spiritual gifts from quote
pretending to special revelations, which is kind of exactly what
this is, right. It's like, once you have a spiritual
movement that allows that sort of woo woo freedom, there's
(42:10):
nothing to stop. Just like one rogue guy being like, Hey,
I'm using this for my own hands, and I want
to bring your attention. I mentioned Hogarth, who's the satirist.
I want to bring your attention to a few drawings
So this is a Hogarth's cartoon. That is a Methodist minister.
You can see is a witch dangling from him.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yeah, it's like everything in the courtroom is all spooky.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
He is inserting sort of a This is a Methodist
minister inserting sort of a phallic object into a woman's bodice.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
And the idea there is that we're associating Methodists with
quote sexual and religious passion, which is kind of a
the slur attached to them at this time. I also
want to draw your attention to this figure in the
of the drying dish. This looks familion. Oh, it's very tough.
(43:03):
It's just giving birth to rabbits. A woman giving birth
to rabbits. This entire picture is sort of making fun
of the credulity of the masses. And there is a
figure here. This is the figure of the scratching fanny
and the bed with Oh is interesting.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I wouldn't have clocked that. I do see it now.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
What I find very interesting is allegedly I tried to
do research. Fan, are you aware of what fanny means
in the UK? A slang it's your vagina, right, it
is your vetina? In America, it's like your butt. Yeah,
but in the UK it means your vagina. Yeah, that
slang didn't really apparently didn't exist for like a hundred
years after this. And yet I do find it very
(43:44):
interesting that all depictions of quote unquote scratching Fanny it's
a little vaginal, look very vaginal. I'm going to show
you more, but that that's the symbolic representation of this ghost.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Do you think that's where that comes from?
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Then it's not, apparently, but it could be. And this
figure if you see sort of a racist caricature also
in the corner, it's because there were black people involved
in this movement, so it's making fun of that. There's
also this other Hogarth one with Fanny here.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yeah, she looks less vaginal there, but like there's still
definitely like layers of labia.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
And then her outfit another scratching Fanny in bed. Interesting,
it's pretty I find it pretty vaginal.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
There's like some Georgia O'Keefe stuff going on.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
But yeah, so this was the talk of London, but
it became gossip that was used to talk about a
bigger topic.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Gossip's always about a bigger talk.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Gossip is always about something more like in that the cartoon,
the Hoggarth cartoon, where Fanny is in the pillary. She's
also in a pillary with this like radical politician John Wilkes,
because they're trying to be like, look at these demagogues.
Both Methodists and John Wiliks appealed to the masses in
unseemly ways. So this is in the seventeen sixties. Eighty
(45:04):
years later, the spiritualism in America will kick off when
the Fox Sisters in Hydesville begin rapping at the I
mean they're doing the same thing. They're like the other
way under their skirts. It's the same trick, and literally
it has a massive nationwide effect eighty years later, even
though it is the simplest trick that there ever could be. Yeah,
(45:27):
what I find interesting about the contrast between those two
cases is for the Fox Sisters, no one really ever
talks about which the specific ghosts they're talking to. It's
just like they're talking to spirits.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Yeah, there's no like ghost agenda.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
We I know personally the Fox Sisters, but like I
can't off the top of my head think of like
which ghosts they were talking to. Yeah, where in this
story it was very much scratching Fanny specifically. So I
do think that's an interesting change. Why by eighty years
later it's like people realize, like, no, it's not actually
about revenge or specific case. It's just about using these
(46:05):
rappings as proof of something greater.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Right, then you can bring more to it, like the
each audience member will bring their own ghosts that they
want to talk to.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
It just becomes more and more abstract, where it's like
this case literally, like this one case on Cocklane was
this one guy Parsons getting revenge on the usurer who
tried to God forbid collect on a loan and it
spiraled out of hand.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
I think this hoax gets a lot of attention on
the internet because it's funny to talk about scratching Fanny
of Cocklane. It is, and what's less funny is the
subtle distinctions between Methodists and more orthodox Anglicans in the
seventeen sixties. But just as important it is.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
And it also reminds me. Have I already given you
my take on like folklore versus rationalism in Outlander?
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Give it to me again because it's very smart.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
So, for those of you haven't seen, Outlander is about
this woman who she was a World War Two nurse
and she time travels back to the middle of the
seventeenth century in Scotland. So she has like twentieth century
medical know how and she touches these like magical rocks
and she time travels and she gets back to the
(47:24):
olden days and she's like, oh, I can use my
twentieth century medical knowledge to help all these people, and
she does, and they're like, great, we really like you.
But part of what she keeps running into is they
have all of these soul sort of.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Like superstitious belief Yeah, they have all.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
These superstitious like folklore beliefs that she keeps like butting
up against when she's like, oh, like, I can't believe
you think that your baby was like changed out by
fairies obviously, like your baby is sick with cholera or whatever,
or like, uh, like you think that you're having a
religious vision when really this is an epileptic fit or something.
(48:02):
And she's like really frustrated by their sort of backwards
way of thinking. And I'm like, Okay, I get that
as like the perspective that the show has, but I'm
also just like, lady, you time traveled through rocks, like,
how does she ever not if that happened to me,
I would be like, I guess anything's possible.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Anything's possible.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
If I time traveled through rocks, I would be like,
magic is real. And if I went to a castle
and they were like, this castle is extremely haunted and
you have to wear a garlic around your neck because
there's a bunch of vampires, and I knew that those
vampires were actually just like people with Marfan syndrome, I
would be like, well, I guess they're vampires and there's
no such thing as Marfan syndrome because I time traveled
(48:46):
through rocks, so I guess anything is possible. So that
was That's my one issue with Claire from Outlander.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Well, Lizzie, I will say, by the.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Time this post, I'm just saying, if I time traveled
back to and then I met Scratching Fanny, even though
I know that story of Scratching Fanny, I would be like,
I guess she's a ghost because I time travel or.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
Maybe it's a time travel or second a Wall.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Maybe it was a time traveler or second a Wall.
I will say, can you bring that up to Diana
Gabaldon When I was saying by the time this episode
comes out.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Last week, last Monday, I was doing an event to
promote my new book, The Arcane Arts with the author
of Outlander herself, Diana Gabaldon, and I will I will
play her this this audio clip, and I will ask
her Lizzie send me a voice memo. We'll see what
she thinks.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
I've heard that in the because there is more magic
as Outlander goes on, and so I've heard that Clear
becomes more open minded. So I guess that sort of
small inconsistency is addressed, addressed, but it's a good point
during the Q and A. Actually, can you can you
(49:52):
embarrass a lovely like seventy five year old Diana Gablon?
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Can you be kind to be doing this event for me?
Thank you so much you.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Bring it up in front of the entire crowd. Can
you just be like, hey, before we start.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Dan, before we start, Oh great, yeah, just at the top,
just set the tone.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Can you just be like, Hey, what is Clear's deal?
Why isn't she more open minded about folklore and magic?
Why doesn't she believe in fairies? She time traveled through
standing stones? What's her fucking deal?
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Okay, I'll do that to set the scene of this
lovely woman doing a favor for me that she absolutely did.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
Not have to.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Thank you so much to Lizzie. Where can the good
people find you?
Speaker 2 (50:24):
We're at Hooks the podcast on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
I'm also at Dana Schwartz with three z's on Instagram.
The Arcane Arts is available now with or without Diana
Gaveldon's approval, depending on how the events love you, Dana,
that has happened in the past when you're listening has gone.
Please follow the podcast on Instagram. We're approaching the end
(50:48):
of season one. Yeah, there's one more episode after this,
one more episode and so you'll be first to know
about where this show will be living. But follow now
and thanks for listening, please responsibly bye. Poax is a
(51:12):
production of iHeart Podcasts. Our hosts are Danish Schwartz and
Lizzie Logan. Our executive producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young,
with supervising producer Rima L. Kali and producers Nomes Griffin
and Jesse Funk. Our theme music was composed by Laine Montgomery.
Speaker 2 (51:28):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
Thanks for listening.
You are listening to Hoax, a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Folks, it's a hug no one I have seen.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
When us to see this last? Welcome to Hoax, a
podcast about the lies we wish we're.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
True and truths that sound like lies.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I'm the ghost of Danish Wartz.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
And I'm the evil twin of Lizzie Logan.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Welcome to the show, Lizzie. We're doing a ghost story today, Spooky.
It's a classic summer spook.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Summer spook.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
You know it's it's June when this episode's gonna come out? Okay,
and why not just do summer Halloween Summer Okay, great
summer Halloween in July. It's like what I feel like
Disney Channel used to do.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I'm excited. I feel like ghost stories are great for
when you're at summer camp around the fire.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Perfect. I want to bring your memory back to when
we did Spirit Photography, an older episode where we talked
about the American tradition, especially during the Civil War, of
people taking photographs allegedly with ghosts. Do you recall this episode?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I recall it quite well. A peek behind the curtain.
I listened to all of our episodes many times, because
not only do I give feedback on cuts and then
listen to them when they're out, because I really like
our show.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It's a good show. It's a good show. We enjoy it.
We make a product that we enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I think our show is good. But yeah, so I
remember spirit photography. What aspect of it is going to
come into play this week?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Well, I think, just for context, just think about how
in the middle of the nineteenth century in America, the
spiritualism movement was coming into full force. And famously there
were these sisters called the Fox Sisters in America doing
like rapping ghosts, not wrapping like lin Manuel Miranda, like
rapping at a door like the raven And that was
in like eighteen forty eight, gotcha, And that sort of
(02:01):
launches the spiritualism movement in the United States. But one
hundred years earlier, okay, in the seventeen hundreds, there's a
ghost haunting in England that sets the scene, I will argue,
sets the scene for the American spiritualism movement. Okay, that's
my argument.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I'm sure you're gonna convince me. Is this so we're
talking mid eighteen set like the seventeen.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Hundred like seventeen sixties.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Okay, So if we're in the middle of the seventeen
hundreds in England, like what other spooky things are people
believing in? Like what? Like when when was the most
recent witch trial?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Okay? So when I hear like witch trials in England,
I mostly associate that with King James the First and
sixth James the First of England, sixth of Scotland, and
that's like sixteen hundreds.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
The last witch trial in England happens in seventeen seventeen,
and the last execution happened back in six eighty two. Okay,
So I think people believe in witches still.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And it's maybe not as criminalized.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, by now by this story is going to take
place in the seventeen sixties. This is a more rational
enlightened as they're claiming time. I don't think people are,
you know, they might believe in magic, and certainly people
believe in ghosts and spirits, but I also think there's
a trendier move towards more rational approaches.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I think rationality is very trendy, and actually the divide
in the Anglican Church between those people who sort of
still believe in spiritual mysticism, and those that don't will
become a major part of this episode because the people
that don't, the more conservative people, will see this sort
of spiritualism thing as frankly a little Catholic.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, this is one of those things where I like,
I hope this isn't like offensive to say, because I
know that people have like died because of this argument.
But so many of the squabbles between Protestants and Catholics,
as a Jew, really are just like so silly to me,
where I'm like, you're arguing about different brands of like
(04:18):
the same of belief, of the same, but of the
same like thing that if you really get down to it,
like I'm not trying to pooh pooh people's faith, but
like this thing of like no, this guy talks to God.
It's like, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
And Lizzie, you will be gratified to know this episode
is about an even smaller subset of disagreements between Protestants. Okay,
this is about the more conservative Anglicans and the Methodist
movement that emerges in England about this time, and ghosts
and ghosts. I have to learn a lot about methodists,
which is not a sentence I really ever thought I would,
(04:54):
I would say, but let me transport you back to
seventeen fifty six. Okay, a man named William Kent who's
a usurer. He's like a loans money to people for
his job. Mary's a woman, she's pregnant, and when she's pregnant,
her sister Fanny moves in.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
The woman dies in childbirth, unfortunately, very sad, in common,
very common. They were only married for eleven months. The
poor baby dies just shortly thereafter. But William Kent falls
in love with his erstwhile sister in law, Fanny, okay,
who had been living with her.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
And you know, if you have a type, I guess
like the sisters are probably pretty similar.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, and they fall in love. But the problem is,
by canon law, you cannot marry a sister and then
also her sister.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
That seems really specific.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Well, I mean, talk to King Henry the eighth divorcing
Catherine of Aragon after she had married his older brother,
Oh right, the whole thing. Oh right, But Fanny after,
you know, after her sister dies, there's no reason for
her to stay with her brother in law, and he
more she goes back to her family. He goes down
to London to quote unquote like seek advice to see
(06:06):
if they could get married. And they keep writing back
and forth and he's like, we can't be together, and
she's like, but I'm still in love with you, and
wouldn't you know it? And this is a pretty bad
example for all women everywhere. Her being like, I still
want to be with you. It works and he's like, okay,
come down to London. So he sends for her. She
comes down to London and they agree that they're gonna
(06:28):
They can't legally get married, but you can't live with someone.
It just isn't proper like a So they're just like,
we're just going to keep it on the dial. Yeah,
And they live together as mister and missus Kent, even
though they are not married.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
A source that described it I thought very aptly said
it was quote no crime to indulge their mutual passion
for each other, and it is acknowledged that they did
cohabit together as man and wife. It's no crime to
indulge mutual passion.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
I mean, from my you know, heathen perspective, this seems
like a pretty victimless crime.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
They make wills in each other's favor. They basically do
everything they can do to make themselves married without being married,
So they make wills in each other's favor. And it's
worth noting that, according to a contemporary source, the young
lady would have been a considerable gainer had she survived,
his fortune being a great deal. More so, they make
wills in each other's favor. But he's not like a
(07:28):
gold digger.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
They try to find a place to live together. The
first place doesn't work out because it.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Seems like it would be such a good season of Bridgerton.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Oh right, but of course, you know, it's like you
ask someone to be their mistress. That's not very romantic.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well, that's like the most recent season of Bridgerston. Are
you caught up on?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Caught up on Bridgerton?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
But it's like and then they have to go live
together in the country.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
In the country, Yeah, okay, anyway, Well, they find a
place to live together. It doesn't work out because William
Kent is a usurer and he loans money to his
landlord and then his landlord does not pay him back
and he has to sue his landlord. And gets him arrested.
So because like, okay, we need a new place to live.
And so while they are struggling to find a new
(08:12):
place to live, it's also possible, I want to note
that the landlord found out that they weren't actually married,
and we don't have proof of that, but it's a
possibility that some people bring up. But they needed a
new place to live, and that's where they meet the
clerk at the church of wait for it, Saint Sepulcher
without Newgate. That's the name of the church.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Sure, I don't know why you have to add the
without newgate part if if it doesn't have Newgate, just
just say Saint Sepulcher. But this is England.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Maybe it's like describing the location. Yeah, within Nugat is
like within the town of Nugat and then this is
just outside, just outside of.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Like okay to Lizzie Logan being very smart.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Okay, sorry.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So the couple meet the c and his name is
Richard Parsons and he says, I have a property you
can live at. He'd had basically a house with multiple
stories and offered them lodging at his residence on Cock Lane. Okay, great,
and This is the point of the episode where I'd
want to be like, oh, it's called Cocklane, isn't that funny?
It's actually because blah blah blah. But it's called cocklane
(09:21):
because historically this is where the sex workers were. You know,
this is why it's called that. There's no like, there's
no like non sexual explanation. But at this point it
is no longer where sex workers are. It is where
a clerk at a church would live. Okay, cool, And
he lives with his wife and two daughters. There's only
(09:41):
one daughter that's relevant to the story. Her name is Elizabeth.
Oh my god, she's a such a good name. Ten
or eleven. She's sometimes known as Betty, but just for
the sake of clarity, most sources refer to her as Elizabeth.
So we'll say Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Song by Taylor Swift.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah, so, so far things are going great. The mister
and missus Kent with air quotes are living at this
house under you know, Richard Parson's Kent loans Parsons twelve guineas. Apparently,
some sources claim that Richard Parsons has a bit of
a drinking problem, and that will come up later. But
(10:17):
the first ghost encounter will happen. Well, William Kent goes
out of town for a wedding, and they ask for
some reason, they don't want his wife, who's pregnant at
this time, Fanny, to be alone, and so they have
Elizabeth come stay with Fanny. So it's like, you know,
this eleven year old girl and the pregnant woman, so
she's not alone. William is off in the country. Elizabeth
(10:39):
and Fanny are in bed together like having a slumber party,
and Elizabeth hears knocking, like banging from somewhere bookie, and
she's terrified. She shouts, I don't want to be taken away.
They ask missus Parsons, Elizabeth's mom like, hey, we heard
banging by the way, and they were like, well, it's
just thebler next door.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
But okay. Then they seeing some midnight cobbler, Well that's it.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
And then they see the cobbler and they were like, hey,
were you cobbling? Yeah, and he says no, uh huh.
And then a landlord of a nearby pub visits the
house and says he saw a white figure on the stairs. Spooky,
and then mister Parsons says, that's so weird. I also
saw a white figure on the stairs. Okay, so it's
(11:28):
seventeen sixty. Fanny, who's pregnant, is a few weeks away
from giving birth, and so they decide to move out
to like a more suitable house for her.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
To have a big raise the begin I'm rooting for
this couple, by the way. Yeah, their love is pure
in my eyes.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Well, the hard part if you are rooting for them.
On Jane twenty fifth, she falls ill. Yeah, they discover
she has smallpox. What it's it's seventeen sixty, the people
get smallpox.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
What.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Her sister lives quote unquote reputably in Paull Mall, which
is like a fancy neighborhood, which I take to meet.
She's another sister, her sister Fanny's yes, her others because
I was like, her sister is dead. Okay, she has
another sister, and she has a few brothers. Okay, big family.
Her living sister lives reputably on Paull Mall and which
(12:21):
I take to me, and is married to someone legitimately,
and she's told that her sister's sick and where she lives.
Fanny had not told her family where she was because
they were not happy about the fact that she was
running away with this man she could not marry. But
her sister here's where she is and is quote overjoyed
(12:42):
to hear of her and runs to see her. And
she's told that her sister is doing well, that she's
making a turn for the better. But the next day
she makes a turn for the worst and she dies
on February second, seventeen sixty And so her sister, who
had recently reconnected with her, the funeral, and there are
a few things that she's a little suspicious.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Of, and she she died pregnant.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yes, she died pregnant. Very sad.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
That is so sad.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
And again the family, her family, her living siblings, were
not a fan of William Kent, her husband, because he
stole even though she was writing to him being like
I love you he air quotes stole her away to
live in sin So the sister goes to the funeral
and she's surprised that the coffin doesn't have a plate
(13:33):
on it, like a plate that is like the little
engraving that says the name. And she also says something
is I wish that I could have gotten to see
the body by the time I got to the funeral,
the coffin was already screwed down. Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Is that for cleanliness reasons because smallpox is contagious.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
It also is probably because you're not you don't look
good when you have if you die from smallpox.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, I wouldn't think so.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
And the no plate on the coffin is most likely
because William Kent would be prosecuted if the true nature
of their relationship got out. They were like living in sin,
committing fraud, so a name on the coffin would be
kind of confusing, like would you say Fanny Kent or
would you not? So the siblings all get very upset
(14:21):
at this man who didn't marry their sister, had their
sister living in sin dining. He locked her up and
knocked her up, knocked her up, thank you. And now
because they had made their wills out to each other,
he gets, as I quote, their sister's fortune to the
prejudice of her brothers and sisters, all who lived in
(14:43):
perfect harmony until this unhappy affair happened. And what I'm
quoting now is a basically a gossip rag from seventeen
sixty counting the story. But what the siblings say, is
we all get along. There's no ill will with the siblings,
So why would she leave all of her money to
you who by the way, she was not even married to, right,
And they're upset because her fortune. She had another brother
(15:07):
who died, and so she got some of his estate,
some of his inheritance. She got one hundred and fifty
pounds from her dead brother's estate some land that he
had owned, and then kent her. Sue's pseudo husband gets
in a fight with the family about how much she
actually stood to inherit and they're arguing about the equivalent
(15:29):
of about sixty five thousand pounds today. So not of fortune,
but also not nothing, right.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I mean, yeah, I guess I get the feeling of, like,
you guys weren't even married. That's like family money that
should stay in the family. Yeah, But it's also I
also like, it's her money. She can leave it to
whoever she wants exactly. I don't know. Arguing over people's
(15:58):
wills is so weird because it's like it's their death.
They can do whatever they like. People can do whatever
they want with the money if they want.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
But the brother the siblings are not happy because it's
like their dead brother's money. That's going to this stranger
who had their sister living in sin Yeah, and one
of the brothers, John Lynes, sues Kent.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
So there's some like annoying family Inheritan stuff going on,
and people make a few The sister makes a few
suspicious comments, being like they said she was getting better
and then she just died all of a sudden hmmm.
And to be fair, she was examined before the sister
even arrived by a quote worthy clergyman who was like,
(16:39):
this is deadly smallpox. She is going to die from this.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, this doesn't sound super suspicious to me.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
They're scientists. There are some rams scientists.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
And there's some messiness in the situation.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
But he doesn't sound like a murder.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
He doesn't sound like a murderer, although again not murderer.
He remarries in seventeen sixty one classic you know, I mean,
men are men, you know, just no man. But and
his legal troubles continue because yet again he had lent
money to his landlord and his landlord didn't pay him
back because when he had been living with Parsons, he
(17:15):
had three guineas outstanding from alone, which he had to
sue to get back, and he does, but it was
like a whole annoying thing, and it was the equivalent
of about eight hundred pounds that they're arguing about that
they have to go to court for. So it's settled,
but it was annoying. Okay, And that's the preamble to
when the real haunting starts. Okay, So we had seen
(17:43):
a ghost on the stairs, a woman in white. We
had heard this recD woman in white. Yes, okay, because
you said a white figure, a white figure who is
later described as a woman in Okay, Parsons starts talking
at the pub and telling people that Fannies ghost is
haunting his house. Oh, Fanny, the pregnant woman who died
(18:04):
of smallpox, is haunting both the house and his daughter Elizabeth.
Oh my, Elizabeth is hearing noises again, that same banging.
That is not the cobbler next door, and it's the
ghost of Fanny. And Parsons declares that that ghost they
had seen before was actually the ghost of her sister,
the first wife of mister Kent, who had been reaching
(18:26):
out to warn her. So they are like, something is
happening here. He reaches out to the assistant preacher at
the church. He works at St. Sepulcher's without Saint Sepulcher,
without Newgate, and the assistant preacher is named John Moore.
And they also bring in this other guy, Thomas Broughton.
(18:47):
And the reason that I'm naming these preachers even by
name and not just being like and they brought some
preachers in to examine is because these are Anglican preachers,
like they're preachers within the Church of England with Methodist sensibilities.
And this is pretty important, that.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Is a Methodist sensibility.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
So Methodism is emerging as a movement within the Anglican
Church at this minute, and it's basically a more spiritual
not in America we would call it like Christian Revival,
but it's a little less strict and rigid and orthodox
than Anglicanism at this time. And it's associated with tales
(19:29):
of the supernatural.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Oh interesting, But.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
The story that Parsons tells that hey, the wife, the
dead wife of this woman is haunting my house, and
the public ledger, which is like a broadsheet, begins publishing accounts.
People begin gossiping about whether Kent is a murderer.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
That's so crazy.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
So the source that I'm going to sort of describe
this seance of how they communicate with the ghost comes
from Gentlemen's Magazine in January of seventeen sixty two. So
apparently the group of gentlemen who are going to examine
and hold a seance come to find Elizabeth in bed
and they say the spirit being at hand and they
want to ask the spirit several questions, and so we
(20:15):
have a group together and it's declared that it's about
twenty people, including two to three clergymen and two black people.
They use a different word for black people. And the
only the only reason I actually am even saying that
is as like a fun fact. I read an article
that posits we have no evidence of this, but it's
very likely that this man, Philip Quay Quay, who was
(20:37):
the first African man ever ordained as a priest in
the Church of England, was at the seance. Okay, go Philip, Yeah,
because he was in London living with John Moore at
the time. So Jackie Robinson of Methodism, Yeah, so if
there was a black man at the seance, people are like,
it probably was him. Great, which is interesting. That is interesting, fun,
interesting fact. So this group of about twenty men, including
(20:58):
two to three preachers clergyman, examine the bed and bedcloths
and don't see any visible appearance of deceit. Elizabeth is
put into bed where she says the hauntings take place,
and the bed begins to shake, and they hear knocking,
and they'd say they're going to ask questions. An answer
is given by knocking or scratching. One knock means yes,
(21:19):
two knocks means no, and scratching means she's upset.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Like a cat.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
So they say, were you brought to an untimely end
by poison? One knock yes, And then they say in
what was the poison administered? Beer or pearl? And pearl
is like an alcoholic beverage, like Jim to look that up,
And she said pearl, I guess by yeah, whichever nick.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
One for the first answer to for the second?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah. And then they say was it your husband who
killed you? Yes? There, yeah, astonishing she's accusing.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Incredible and then incredible the way this ghost is answering
leading questions, leading question.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Well, ghosts can only answer yes or no question, otherwise,
how would you communicate?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
How would you boss?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
They ask more basic ghost questions. She says, like, I
was not legally married to Kent. No other persons were
concerned in the poisoning. The ghost would follow Elizabeth everywhere
and then they were like are you pleased in answering
our questions? Does it ease your mind?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
And she's like yes, okay, great, and then that this
is a consensual seance.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
And then they also they ask the ghost if the
person called Carrots was able to give information about the
poison and she says yes. And Carrots is the nickname
for the servant who lived with them because she had
red hair. It's not her real name, but I like
be her name is Carrots and that she is in
the record as Carrots, And so they were like, Carrots
has more information, and then they get they go to
(22:45):
Carrots and bring her to the ghost and Karrots is like,
I don't know anything about this. I actually do not
have any more information, and they were like, ghosts, do
you have something to say about this? And ghost is speechless.
They also ask the ghost would it ease your mind
if the accused confessed yes? Would it ease your mind
if the accused was hanged? Yes?
Speaker 2 (23:09):
If they killed this guy based on testimony of a ghost.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Well, so here's the thing. These stories are being printed
all over London, right, this is a very popular, scandalous,
gossipy story. Yeah, but I want to be clear, this
is not like people in the past were stupid and
everyone was falling for this. Because at the end of
this gentleman's magazine that I was reading that like was
a contemporary source for this, they said the last sentence
(23:35):
was as the impostor will soon probably be discovered. Let
this short detail suffice to show the tendency of it.
The whole of the nonsense would fill a magazine. So okay, Like,
it's a funny, fun funny story. Some people seem to
really believe it, but like, I think it's a mistake
to be like everyone believed in ghosts. No, I don't.
(23:57):
I'm not saying that.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I just know that, like people can get ideas in
their heads and like stir up and like a fervor.
And then I'm thinking the way like internet mobs can
like attack people based on rumors, and like it would
not surprise me if someone just went out and stabbed
this guy and was like justice for your wife, and
(24:21):
then it was like, oh, that was based on like
the testimony of a ghost, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
And kent to his in his defense is like taking
this seriously, yeah, because again this is like his life
and reputation. He goes to one of these seances with
the preacher and when the ghost says that he'll be hanged,
he says, thou art a lying spirit. Thou art not
the ghost of my family. She never would have said
any such things. Yeah, like he he is in this
(24:47):
and he is upset, and he's also like a widower.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, like you're torturing this guy who's like wife and
like unborn child just died of smallpox. Yeah, like this
is so mean.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
And also I mean she's not in this story, but
to think that he also just got married to someone else.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, he's grief Like, but I'm.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Like this poor third wife be like, oh, that ghost
of the dead wife is coming back accusing him of
poisoning her. Meanwhile, Cocklane becomes a massive tourist attraction. People
wait in line to.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Do what to talk to the talk to the ghost.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
People wait in line for hours to talk to the ghost,
and Parsons allegedly charges them to ask the ghost questions
that the ghost would answer with.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
No, people kind of believe.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, a lot of people believe, especially Methodists.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
It becomes sort of a the she's known as scratching
Fanny of Cocklane. Okay, I'm so sorry. I mean a
great series of words put together, and she sort of
becomes a cause that the Methodist movement takes on as
proof of the spiritual afterlife.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
There's a lot of distinguished guests to come, including Horace Walpole,
who's like a famous person from this time, but he thinks.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Sherlock Holmes probably and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Hitter.
Here's a little barnum.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Walpole says that he kind of thinks this is all
Methodist nonsense, and he said it's a drunk parish clerk
set it on foot.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
There'd be a Methodist in his madness. All right, I'm
really sorry, please continue.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah, his take on this is that a drunk parish
clerk set it on foot out of revenge. The Methodists
have adopted it, and the whole town of London think
of nothing else. And I'm like, yes, correct, Okay. But meanwhile,
there's like several requests from more professional people to intercede,
like even the Lord Mayor of London is like, hey,
we need to figure something out. And Kent, the man
(26:47):
who's being accused of murdering his wife, is like, I
want to set the record straight.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
And so Stephen Aldrich, who's the local parish priest in Clerkenwell,
who's like a bigger deal. He's more or Doc's Anglicans,
so he's not in this methodist nonsense. He invites a
group together to investigate.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Investigate the ghost. The ghost okay, because I was like,
in terms of investigating the death, when are there cops
at this time? Like, why are priests in charge of
all of them?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
They're not investigating the death yet, Okay, they're just investigating the.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Ghost because yeah, okay, great priests are who you call
for per a ghost, that's who that's the ghost buster.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, Anglican priest.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Okay, they are afraid of no ghosts.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
And so On February first, seventeen sixty two, quote, many
gentlemen eminent for their rank and character assemble for an examination.
And the most famous man in this assemblage assembly is
a man named Samuel Johnson. Does that name mean anything
to you?
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah? But I feel like there's like so many Samuel's
and so many Johnson's that it almost rings too many bells.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Well, big deal. He's the created the Dictionary of the
English Language seventeen fifty five. Heard of the dictionary.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
I thought some guid named what mister created the dictionary,
And that's why his name is on the dictionary.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
He gets there eventually, but Johnson did it first. Okay.
And also Johnson had a biographer named Boswell whollowed him everywhere. Anyway,
Johnson is a big deal at this time. He's like
the intellectual heavy hitter of the mid seventeen hundreds. And
in terms of ghosts, he I think he's like not
not a believer. He says, quote undecided whether or not
(28:26):
there has ever been an instance of the spirit of
any person appearing after death. All argument is against it,
but all belief is for it. So that's what he believes.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
He's like, I know there's no evidence, but like you
kind of want to believe, right sure. And also this
haunting is happening a few streets from his house, Okay.
So he's so he's like, I'd like to know what's up.
I'd like to know it's up. He's very curious.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Something strange in your neighborhood. Who you gonna call Samuel Johnson? Okay,
Samuel Johnson.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
At ten pm, this group of men meet in the
bedroom with Elizabeth and they sit for an hour and
hear no bangs, and then they go downstairs to talk
to Parsons, and they're like, this is a fraud, right,
And he says, no, I have no idea about anything.
And the ghost earlier in one of the earlier Q
and A sessions, had promised to knock on the coffin
(29:16):
containing Fanny's body and as like a token of her presence.
And so basically they are like, should we go down
to the vaults to see the see if she's banging
on the coffin. And while they're deciding, they're called back
into the bedroom because there's knocks and scratches that start up,
(29:37):
and Elizabeth says she feels the spirit like a mouse
upon her back. They tell the girl to hold her
hands and feet out of the bed and from then
no noises. According to Samuel Johnson, who wrote about this,
he says, from that time, though the spirit was very
solemnly required to manifest its existence by appearance, by impression
(29:57):
on the hand or body of any present by scratches, knocks,
or any other agency. No evidence of any preternatural power
was exhibited. So then they tell the spirit, okay, you're
done banging here, but go bang on the coffin. So
at one am they all go into the church vault
to see the coffin and nothing happens, and they're like, okay,
(30:20):
so there's a fraud. Yeah, And they go back to
the girl like it's a lame ghost. It's not much
of a ghost. They go back to Elizabeth, the young
girl again is like eleven at this time, eleven or twelve,
and they're like, confess, and she does not, but Samuel
Johnson makes the determination. He says, it is therefore the
opinion of the whole assembly that the child has some
(30:42):
art of making or counterfeiting particular noise, and that there
is no agency of any higher cause. So at this
point people are like, this is a hoax. Most like
intelligent people, okay, and they think that Elizabeth is doing it. Yeah,
so it couldn't just be that like someone was in
the walls. They don't know how it's happening, okay. But
(31:05):
also she's going, she's gone from house to house. She's done,
sance is a few different locations.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Oh okay, and she's the common denominator.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yes, But as they asked the ghost, they said like,
will you follow Elizabeth wherever she goes? And the ghost
is like, yep, he's like my daughter's being haunted by
the ghost of fans right.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
So most like what we would call rational people at
this point agree that there's a hoax happening. There are
still some people who do believe, especially like Methodists, to
have taken on this ghost as part of their as
part of their cause. It's part of evidence, and they
claim like, well, her body was moved, that's why the
coffin didn't didn't bang. Someone had secretly moved her body. Oh,
(31:46):
like her body had been removed from the coffin. Oh
and that's their theory. Yeah, they're they're not citing that
she was moved. They're like, oh, the only explanation is
that she was moving.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Okay. So that's like a conspiracy.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
It's it's that thing of when you believe something, you
come up which is making more evidence. But at this point, Moore,
who was the reverend from St. Sepulcher's, tells Kent like, look,
I believe this ghost is a hoax, and Kent says,
this is ruining my life. Yeah, write down what you
know please. At first, Moore does not want to because
(32:17):
he still thinks that the spirit. He's like, Okay, I
think this is a hoax, but I still think there
is a spirit, and I still think that the spirit's
presence is a reminder of the sin, the fact that
you lived out of wedlock.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Let the man like wedlock. People get too hung up
on wedlock.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
You know, I will ask you to read. Eventually he
will make a full retraction. And this is the retraction
if you'd like to read it, which I find very thorough.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Okay, injusice to the person whose reputation has been attacked
in a most gross manner by the pretended ghost in
cock Lane, to check the credulity of the week, to
defeat the attempts of the delicious, and to prevent further
imposition on account of this absurd phenomenon, I do hereby
(33:06):
certify that, though from the several attendances on this occasion,
I have not been able to point out how and
in what manner these knockings and scratchings of the supposed
ghost were contrived, performed, and continued. Yet that I am
convinced that these knockings and scratchings were the effects of
some artful, wicked persons.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
So he's basically saying, look, every it's like when it's
like when a celebrity has sent their fans on someone
and then it's like, guys, peace and love, only when
they're like belaying someone. So he's basically like, guys, this
has gone too far. You have to stop with Ken's reputation. Yeah,
I don't know how the hoax is happening. I'm not involved,
but I do think it's a hoax. Yeah, he's not
(33:48):
taking responsibility.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Well he didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Well maybe, oh did he? I don't know, but I'm
just saying he was like one of the first people
that you're like ghost ghost ghosts. He at least could
have been like taking responsibility for how he publicized it
and how he legitimized it. Yeah, Parsons at this point
knows that now that More made this statement, now that
Samuel Johnson and his committee made their statement, that his
(34:11):
back is kind of against the wall. So he allows
Elizabeth to be examined a few more times at a
few different houses, a few different locations. They examine her
in a few different ways, but basically, the long and
short of it is, the noises always stop when Elizabeth
has her hands outside.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Of the bed. Okay, so she's doing it with her hands.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
And okay. They at this point investigators are like, enough
is enough, and they tell this twelve year old girl like, okay,
if she's in this bed, no noises are happening. And
they say, okay, well, if the ghost doesn't make any
noises by Sunday, your father's going to be imprisoned. And
then like boy, blow and behold the banging start and
(34:52):
the maids see her concealing a small piece of wood
and she's just been banging it under the covers. It's
six inches by four inch and she's been banging it
against like the side.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Of the bed. What an elaborate ruse.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
It's a very simple plan, the maids tell the investigators.
Turns out she was a twelve year old girl just
doing this at the behest of her father. Kent, meanwhile,
is still trying to clear his name. He literally gets
a group together to go into the vault again and
expose Fanny's corpse because people are still claiming that there
(35:25):
was no knocking because her body had been secretly removed,
and they're like, nope, there she is, and that is
actually what had prompted John Moore to be like, okay,
I will make a formal statement. This is gone too far.
You just like had to dig I mean not dig
up because she was an a vault, but like bring
up the disinter disinter the smallpox corpse of your ex
(35:46):
wife X not x common law wife, common law wife.
So even with that public retraction that John Moore made,
he is still arrested along side Parsons Missus Parsons, Mary Fraser,
and a local tradesman named Richard James, and they're charged
(36:06):
with conspiracy because the charges brought by William Kent. Basically,
William Kent sues them, yeah, for a conspiracy to take
away his life by charging him with the murder of
France's lines by giving her poison whereof she died.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
So William Kent, yea the widower widower Susan sues all
the people who did the hoax.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
For basically trying to kill him, trying to get him
hang for making up a rumor about him being a murderer. Yes,
I'm on his side. Yeah, yeah, they made it.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
You shouldn't be able to just accuse people of.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Stuff, and I mean it's a pretty clear motive. Again,
he had Parsons had taken out alone and not paid
it back. Yeah, and he had sued him and then
he was like, well fuck you, yeah, you and your
wife were living out of wedlock. Yeah, and so he
sues them. The name if you didn't remember, Mary Fraser's
one of the maids and the rich James was like
(37:01):
a local tradesman. Take carrot now, okay, carrots had no involvement. Okay,
good for care and carrots was Fanni's made. Okay, good
for carrots. Richard James was like a local tradesman who
had written some of the more incendiary material for the
public ledger. So he's the one who's planting stories.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
That the current press needs to take a note from
this story because you know, I wasn't gonna talk about
Blake Lively. But you can't just make stuff up about people.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
You can't just make stuff up. You gotta fact check these,
check your sources. Lizzie, how do you think the jury
found Uh?
Speaker 2 (37:39):
I think they probably found not guilty because they were
religious and didn't want to say that it's impossible that
there's ghosts.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Fifteen minutes guilty for all five, okay. The two John Moore,
the preacher and Richard James just pay five hundred and
eighty eight pounds in damages to quote like purchase their
pardon and they're dismissed with a severe reprimand so they
get like a fine and a warning bear missus. Parsons
gets one year in prison. Mary Fraser, who's like a
(38:10):
maid who helped out, gets six months okay, and Parsons
is sentenced to two years prison and the pillary three times.
What the pillary is, yeah, with the with the tomatoes.
Well that's the thing. Even at this point he claims
to be innocent, and he sent into the pillary three times,
and apparently when he's in the pillary usually people are
(38:30):
like tomatoes, tomatoes. But allegedly the crowd treats him like
very kindly and collects money for him because a lot
of the crowd were still believers.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Interesting, I mean, well that's their business, but they're but
they don't make Elizabeth do anything right now, she's a child.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
I was just asked to do this at the behest
of her father.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
All right, fault I, you know what, go eighteenth century
justice stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
What's interesting about this case and how it existed in
the popular culture of the eighteenth century is that Scratching
Fanny became this proxy war for Anglicans and Methodists. Yeah,
so Anglicans are like, as I said, like these Methodists
are getting pretty Catholic over here, because the Anglican Church
of England by this time had sort of fallen away
(39:20):
from the supernatural in favor of more rationalism, and Methodists
were still about folk remedies and spiritual healing and did
still believe in witches. Yeah, but most, like most of
like the literati and like the cultured people of this
time were anti Methodists, especially some like cartoonists. So Hogarths,
(39:41):
who's like a famous cartoonist, makes several illustrations involving Scratching
Fanny and the cock Lane Ghost that are indirect attacks
on Methodist ministers.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Yeah. Is it sort of like that classic like upper class,
lower class thing of like being dis missive of folklore
and like midwives versus doctors and like, oh you people
with your rural medical practices and listening to the spirits
(40:14):
of the elders. We here in the upper classes have
whatever whatever I mean like in this case, I agree, but.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
That's also kind of like I think, yes, and I
also think it's kind of a dismissal of like the masses,
the hoi POLLOI yeah, because so Walpole, who is like
one of the people who examined earlier, makes a note
about the Kochlan ghosts and kind of he thinks that
the Methodists are sort of using it cynically. He says,
the Methodists were glad to have such a key to
the credulity of the mob.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
I agree, yeah, I mean they were just using it
to get at this guy who all he did was
fall in love with his dead wife's sister.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Well, what I think happened, in simplest terms, is this
guy who owned the property the landlord didn't pay a
debt back, was mad at the guy, tried to get
revenge on him by inventing a ghost story. And then
because it reinforced like a version of the world that
Methodists wanted to believe in, not only that the spiritual
(41:15):
afterlife is closer to us than we realized, but also
like see the sin of the people living out of wedlock,
that they took it and ran with it.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
Yeah, when it maybe got out of hand.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah, Like I think Parsons was just like I want
to get revenge on this guy who sued me over
a debt. Yeah, And the Methodists were kind of as
a movement, Like what I found interesting was Okay, So
there was this guy named George Bell who was part
of the Methodist movement, and then he claimed that he
had reached Christian perfection and was experiencing visions and he
himself had spiritual powers, and even the founder of the
(41:48):
Methodism movement like disavowed him. But as a historian wrote
with Bell, it's an example of how difficult it was
to distinguish religious zeal and visionary spiritual gifts from quote
pretending to special revelations, which is kind of exactly what
this is, right. It's like, once you have a spiritual
movement that allows that sort of woo woo freedom, there's
(42:10):
nothing to stop. Just like one rogue guy being like, Hey,
I'm using this for my own hands, and I want
to bring your attention. I mentioned Hogarth, who's the satirist.
I want to bring your attention to a few drawings
So this is a Hogarth's cartoon. That is a Methodist minister.
You can see is a witch dangling from him.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yeah, it's like everything in the courtroom is all spooky.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
He is inserting sort of a This is a Methodist
minister inserting sort of a phallic object into a woman's bodice.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
And the idea there is that we're associating Methodists with
quote sexual and religious passion, which is kind of a
the slur attached to them at this time. I also
want to draw your attention to this figure in the
of the drying dish. This looks familion. Oh, it's very tough.
(43:03):
It's just giving birth to rabbits. A woman giving birth
to rabbits. This entire picture is sort of making fun
of the credulity of the masses. And there is a
figure here. This is the figure of the scratching fanny
and the bed with Oh is interesting.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I wouldn't have clocked that. I do see it now.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
What I find very interesting is allegedly I tried to
do research. Fan, are you aware of what fanny means
in the UK? A slang it's your vagina, right, it
is your vetina? In America, it's like your butt. Yeah,
but in the UK it means your vagina. Yeah, that
slang didn't really apparently didn't exist for like a hundred
years after this. And yet I do find it very
(43:44):
interesting that all depictions of quote unquote scratching Fanny it's
a little vaginal, look very vaginal. I'm going to show
you more, but that that's the symbolic representation of this ghost.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Do you think that's where that comes from?
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Then it's not, apparently, but it could be. And this
figure if you see sort of a racist caricature also
in the corner, it's because there were black people involved
in this movement, so it's making fun of that. There's
also this other Hogarth one with Fanny here.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yeah, she looks less vaginal there, but like there's still
definitely like layers of labia.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
And then her outfit another scratching Fanny in bed. Interesting,
it's pretty I find it pretty vaginal.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
There's like some Georgia O'Keefe stuff going on.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
But yeah, so this was the talk of London, but
it became gossip that was used to talk about a
bigger topic.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Gossip's always about a bigger talk.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Gossip is always about something more like in that the cartoon,
the Hoggarth cartoon, where Fanny is in the pillary. She's
also in a pillary with this like radical politician John Wilkes,
because they're trying to be like, look at these demagogues.
Both Methodists and John Wiliks appealed to the masses in
unseemly ways. So this is in the seventeen sixties. Eighty
(45:04):
years later, the spiritualism in America will kick off when
the Fox Sisters in Hydesville begin rapping at the I
mean they're doing the same thing. They're like the other
way under their skirts. It's the same trick, and literally
it has a massive nationwide effect eighty years later, even
though it is the simplest trick that there ever could be. Yeah,
(45:27):
what I find interesting about the contrast between those two
cases is for the Fox Sisters, no one really ever
talks about which the specific ghosts they're talking to. It's
just like they're talking to spirits.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Yeah, there's no like ghost agenda.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
We I know personally the Fox Sisters, but like I
can't off the top of my head think of like
which ghosts they were talking to. Yeah, where in this
story it was very much scratching Fanny specifically. So I
do think that's an interesting change. Why by eighty years
later it's like people realize, like, no, it's not actually
about revenge or specific case. It's just about using these
(46:05):
rappings as proof of something greater.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Right, then you can bring more to it, like the
each audience member will bring their own ghosts that they
want to talk to.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
It just becomes more and more abstract, where it's like
this case literally, like this one case on Cocklane was
this one guy Parsons getting revenge on the usurer who
tried to God forbid collect on a loan and it
spiraled out of hand.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
I think this hoax gets a lot of attention on
the internet because it's funny to talk about scratching Fanny
of Cocklane. It is, and what's less funny is the
subtle distinctions between Methodists and more orthodox Anglicans in the
seventeen sixties. But just as important it is.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
And it also reminds me. Have I already given you
my take on like folklore versus rationalism in Outlander?
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Give it to me again because it's very smart.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
So, for those of you haven't seen, Outlander is about
this woman who she was a World War Two nurse
and she time travels back to the middle of the
seventeenth century in Scotland. So she has like twentieth century
medical know how and she touches these like magical rocks
and she time travels and she gets back to the
(47:24):
olden days and she's like, oh, I can use my
twentieth century medical knowledge to help all these people, and
she does, and they're like, great, we really like you.
But part of what she keeps running into is they
have all of these soul sort of.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Like superstitious belief Yeah, they have all.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
These superstitious like folklore beliefs that she keeps like butting
up against when she's like, oh, like, I can't believe
you think that your baby was like changed out by
fairies obviously, like your baby is sick with cholera or whatever,
or like, uh, like you think that you're having a
religious vision when really this is an epileptic fit or something.
(48:02):
And she's like really frustrated by their sort of backwards
way of thinking. And I'm like, Okay, I get that
as like the perspective that the show has, but I'm
also just like, lady, you time traveled through rocks, like,
how does she ever not if that happened to me,
I would be like, I guess anything's possible.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Anything's possible.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
If I time traveled through rocks, I would be like,
magic is real. And if I went to a castle
and they were like, this castle is extremely haunted and
you have to wear a garlic around your neck because
there's a bunch of vampires, and I knew that those
vampires were actually just like people with Marfan syndrome, I
would be like, well, I guess they're vampires and there's
no such thing as Marfan syndrome because I time traveled
(48:46):
through rocks, so I guess anything is possible. So that
was That's my one issue with Claire from Outlander.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Well, Lizzie, I will say, by the.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Time this post, I'm just saying, if I time traveled
back to and then I met Scratching Fanny, even though
I know that story of Scratching Fanny, I would be like,
I guess she's a ghost because I time travel or.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
Maybe it's a time travel or second a Wall.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Maybe it was a time traveler or second a Wall.
I will say, can you bring that up to Diana
Gabaldon When I was saying by the time this episode
comes out.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Last week, last Monday, I was doing an event to
promote my new book, The Arcane Arts with the author
of Outlander herself, Diana Gabaldon, and I will I will
play her this this audio clip, and I will ask
her Lizzie send me a voice memo. We'll see what
she thinks.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
I've heard that in the because there is more magic
as Outlander goes on, and so I've heard that Clear
becomes more open minded. So I guess that sort of
small inconsistency is addressed, addressed, but it's a good point
during the Q and A. Actually, can you can you
(49:52):
embarrass a lovely like seventy five year old Diana Gablon?
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Can you be kind to be doing this event for me?
Thank you so much you.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Bring it up in front of the entire crowd. Can
you just be like, hey, before we start.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Dan, before we start, Oh great, yeah, just at the top,
just set the tone.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Can you just be like, Hey, what is Clear's deal?
Why isn't she more open minded about folklore and magic?
Why doesn't she believe in fairies? She time traveled through
standing stones? What's her fucking deal?
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Okay, I'll do that to set the scene of this
lovely woman doing a favor for me that she absolutely did.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
Not have to.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Thank you so much to Lizzie. Where can the good
people find you?
Speaker 2 (50:24):
We're at Hooks the podcast on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
I'm also at Dana Schwartz with three z's on Instagram.
The Arcane Arts is available now with or without Diana
Gaveldon's approval, depending on how the events love you, Dana,
that has happened in the past when you're listening has gone.
Please follow the podcast on Instagram. We're approaching the end
(50:48):
of season one. Yeah, there's one more episode after this,
one more episode and so you'll be first to know
about where this show will be living. But follow now
and thanks for listening, please responsibly bye. Poax is a
(51:12):
production of iHeart Podcasts. Our hosts are Danish Schwartz and
Lizzie Logan. Our executive producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young,
with supervising producer Rima L. Kali and producers Nomes Griffin
and Jesse Funk. Our theme music was composed by Laine Montgomery.
Speaker 2 (51:28):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
Thanks for listening.
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