February 2, 2026 • 46 mins
Arrested in 1945 for selling a Vermeer masterpiece to high-ranking Nazi Herman Goring, dutch painter Han van Meegeren had an innovative and shocking defense: he was guilty not of collaboration but of art forgery, faking half a dozen "Vermeers" over the previous decade. But under the reign of the Third Reich, where do you draw the line between opportunism and profiteering?
SOURCES
https://museumhack.com/anniversary-forgery-meegeren/
https://www.essentialvermeer.com/misc/van_meegeren.html
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/10/27/dutch-master
https://www.culturedmag.com/article/2023/03/16/han-van-meegeren-forgery-nazi-vermeer/
https://www.salon.com/2016/11/27/faking-it-does-the-forged-vermeer-that-fooled-goering-belong-in-a-museum/
The Man Who Made Vermeers by Jonathan Lopez
How Pleasure Works by Paul Bloom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnnkuOz08GQ
https://www.npr.org/2008/07/12/92483237/how-mediocre-dutch-artist-cast-the-forgers-spell
https://www.thecollector.com/han-van-meegeren/
Van Meegeren: The Forger Who Fooled The Nazis (BBC)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to Hoax, a production of iHeart Podcasts. Folks.
It's a huge I haven't seen what us.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
See the.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Welcome to Hoax, a podcast about the lies we wish we're.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
True and truths that sound like lies. I'm the ghost
of Danish Wartz and I'm the evil twin of Lizzie Logan.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hey Dana, Hey, so today, I have a couple tiny
disclaimers before we get into the episode. Okay, agree. Number one,
I just want to shout out my niece Asha for
suggesting this topic.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Oh my god, that's adorable. I know.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you Asha for being a fan.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
And how old is your niece?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
She is an adult. I think the word east throws people.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
It's not adorable then, no, it's like.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Sweet, that sweet that she listens.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Well, thank you adult, Thank you for listening to the show. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
On the topic of this being a podcast mostly for adults, yeah,
we are going to be talking Nazi on this episode.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Cool. Cool.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
So if you just aren't in the headspace for that,
or you have small children in the car, you know,
maybe go to the Coddingly Fairies episode. It's very family friendly.
Good to know, all right, With all that in mind, Dana,
what do you know about art theft during World War
Two and the paintings of Vermir.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
I mean, I'm very excited because I know very little,
but it all sounds very mysterious.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
It is mysterious.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I think Nazis stole a bunch of paintings that belong
to Jewish people. Yes, that's sort of my general impression.
So I don't know where this episode is going.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
It's coming all over the place.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I can't wait.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I would say that this episode is like, it's like
one of those Judge Judy episodes where someone couldn't have
although I guess they'd do murder, but like it's like
one of those jokes or something where someone's like, no,
I couldn't have. I'm not guilty because at the time
that my wife was murdered, I was with my mistress.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Where it's like they didn't do the crime because they
were busy doing another crime.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I was getting light boat sections.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Like the alibi isn't as bad as the crime, but
it's still it's still embarrassing. Okay, So, during the Second
World War, the Nazis are just looting left and right.
Some of the biggest art dealers and art collectors in
Europe are Jewish families, and so the Nazis take anything
they can get their hands on. How convenient for them,
(02:41):
how convenient for them. And Herman Gerring who is he
is like the top guy in the Nazi military. Okay,
he's like head of the air force. And then when
they take over Prussia, he's going to get put in
charge of Prussia. He is a top guy. He's a
(03:01):
big art fanatic and he collects like over a thousand
pieces of art. He's like that this is his you know,
besides the military. This is his passion is collecting art. Sure,
and he when the war ends, he turns himself in
to the Allies. But before he turns himself in, he
(03:22):
had I think a plan to escape or run away.
He tries to hide all of his art treasures. The
war ends and the Allies discover his art stash, and
among his stash they find a vermire.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
And just for a little context, was this like a
looted slash stolen stash or like a purchased stash or both?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well? So both because purchasing, if you go and you
point a gun in someone's face and you say sell
me this painting for the price that I say, like, yeah,
you're purchasing it, but like you're also kind of looting
it because you're gonna name a really unfair price.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
But that will a little bit come into play later,
like whether it's ever you know, whether there is like
ethical consumption under Nazis, but like whether you can ever
be held responsible for selling something to a Nazi Like
that will come into play later.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Interesting. Okay, so they find the Allies find his his.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
His enormous art stash and his prized possession. The most
expensive thing he has is a Vermire called Christ and
the Adulteress. Ooh yes, and this is at the time
it would have been one of the most expensive paintings
ever sold. There are not very many Vermirs in the world.
(04:41):
You don't need to know that much about Vermir for
this episode of Girl the Pearliering is one of his paintings. Basically,
Vermir lived a whole long time ago in the Netherlands.
He lived in a city called Delft, and there are
only thirty five or so surviving paintings, and we don't
know much about his life.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Well, I read the book The Girl with the Parlata,
which seemed to be incredibly detailed about his life. Given
that it is a novel and it is not real.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
It could be real. Because we don't know very much
about his life, there are a lot of gaps, and
finding Gering's art stash is not just a happy coincidence.
The Allies are very intentional about finding stolen art and
returning it to its proper owners. This is a whole
office that they have.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Like post war, this is something that we're putting energy towards.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Oh yes, like three weeks post war, like right after
the end of the war. They want to track down
every piece of art. This is something that they're taking
very very seriously because the Nazis were very intentional about
collecting all of the cultural treasures. So the Allies really
want to, with just as much focus and intentionality, undo
(05:57):
that and get everybody's art back to where it's been
to go. Great, I'm pro that for the record, Yes,
all right. So they trace this vermire to a dealer
named and I'm going to mess up this name, Alice
Aloys Aloys midyl Okay, who is not super important to
(06:19):
the story, but I think is really interesting. When I
was researching this episode, like I realized how much stuff
I didn't know about World War two, even though it
feels like we've all heard about World War two our
whole lives. He was a Nazi banker.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Is he how Goring got this painting? That's the connection? Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
He was a banker, and he would facilitate trades of
like looted and stolen artworks and property and jewelry and
Jewish treasures. And this is the just crazy thing that
I was Like, his wife was Jewish, Oh my god,
(07:00):
and he had he got her declared an honorary riyan,
which I didn't know was a thing. How many years,
how many movies have I seen? I didn't know honorary
arian was a thing?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Oh god, that's so like freaky of him and viscerally
uncomfortable in a lot of different ways.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, and anyway, but so okay, So they trace it
to him, and he at this point has fled to Spain,
sure where like right at the end of the war,
when it became clear that the Germans were going to
lose the war, he fled to Spain. He gave back
some of his paintings, he sold some others, and then
he got to just live to nineteen seventy. So wow,
(07:41):
a lot of people just got away with it.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
You could have just been like walking through Barcelona sipping
a wine after your CS and just run into this guy.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
But the guy that he got it from is this
Dutchman named Han van Niegrin. Okay, So they go to
Han's house.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Because they're this is like the Allies after the war,
trying to figure out where this painting belongs.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Where this painting belongs and who sold it to Hermann Gerring.
Doing business with the Nazis is first of all not okay.
Second of all, in Amsterdam, Vermir is considered like one
of their main guys, like old Dutch masters, and to
sell a Vermiir to a Nazi, even through a third party,
is considered like basically treason.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah you sold who who got this Nazi money in
exchange for Everymir? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
You you have sold our cultural heritage to I mean
the Netherlands was taken over, was occupied territory, so you
sold our cultural heritage to our occupiers. Yeah, bad, bad, bad, bad,
bad bad bad bad bad did it? So they trace
it to Han van Meigran and they knock on his door.
This is three weeks after the war has ended, and
(08:55):
they're like, hey, Vanmigrn, so you have this vermire that
ended up in a in a Nazi collection collection of
like the like one of the top Nazis. Where'd you
get it? And he's like, oh so familiar, brilliant, good novel.
(09:22):
And they're like, okay, what if we march you at
gunpoint to the prison where Anne Frank's family was held
before they got put on a train to the camps. Whoa,
they're not effing around. Okay, this is three weeks after
the end of the war. The Allies are not effing around.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
So they march him to the prison and they're like, Okay,
now that you're in prison, you want to tell us
where you got the vermire. He's like, that doesn't sound
like me. It sounds like you got bad information. And
they're like, I don't know if you know this, but
selling Dutch culture to the Nazis that's a capital crime. Yeah,
(10:08):
you can die for that. You can literally be killed
for that. That is how much people hate the Nazis for.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
I'm gonna say for good reasion.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, this is we don't care that you never wore
like an SS uniform people in Amsterdam, they hate you
so much, will kill you for this.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, you gave him a vermire.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
You gave him a vermire. Do you want to tell
us where you got it? And maybe try to plea
this thing down. Oh and they also had noticed that.
So the Netherlands is like pretty poor at this point.
It's been occupied by the Nazis. They just survived like
the winter of starvation. And this guy is super rich.
He's been throwing parties and eating caviar. And they're like, hey,
(10:53):
would you get all this money if you're not selling vermires? Yeah,
and he's like, oh, I sold some Flemish paintings right
before the war started.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, real caviar money. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
And they're like okay, so you could die. So do
you want to tell us where you got the vermire?
And he's like, okay, give me a sec the painting
loophole painted it myself. Oh, can't send me to my
death for selling a vermire. If it wasn't a vermire.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I sold them a Jeff whenever. This guy's name is Hans, Yeah,
I sold them a Han.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
And they're like, okay, nice, try that's a fun loophole.
But this Vermire is from like a period of Vermires.
This is from like a series of six or seven
paintings from Vermire's biblical phase, all of which have entered
the art market over the past like decade. And you
(11:57):
had a hand in selling all of them. You're just
gonna tell us that you didn't know any of them
were gonna end up in Nazi hands, and you just
happen to have painted this one. And he's like, oh, yeah, no,
I painted all of them. None of those are Vermires.
I'm just an art forger. I'm just a really good
art forger.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, this is funny. I like this guy.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
And they're like okay. So they go to.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Court, so he has to prove that he forged paintings
that to sell to the Nazis, rather than the fact
that he sold Vermires to the Nazis. Yes, it's funny
because you think he would have been excited that he
tricked the Nazis. You think he would have been like
proud about it.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
He is he is, and he's also fighting for his life.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
So they go to court and they examine the paintings
and there they run chemical tests and the scientists are
like Okay, it's possible that these are not by Vermire.
And they bring in this guy, Abraham Brettius, who is
known as the Pope of Vermire because he is the
most well known, well respected Vermire scholar, and they're like,
(13:05):
what do you think and he's like, no, that's ver Mir,
that's totally by Vermire. They're like, okay, but you're the
one who said it was by Vermire in the first place,
so maybe maybe you're just trying to like save your
own reputation, so okay, never mind, never mind, And Van
Meegren's like, Okay, if you X ray the paintings, I'll
(13:26):
tell you what's underneath them. Yeah, and he can, and
they're like, okay, so these are not by Vermire.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah. You also think they could have just done like
a big eyes and been like, can you, okay, paint one.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
For us, Dana. That's the next thing they do great
because they're like, Okay, we've proven that they're not by
Vermere and that you saw the canvases before they were
painted on, But that doesn't mean that you painted them.
You could have had somebody else paint them. You could
have had a collaborator who you're not naming to prove
that you and you alone painted all of these vermires
quote unquote Vermires. We're gonna give you six weeks, a
(14:00):
little house, some paint, and a canvas, and you gotta paint.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Pay for your life.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
You gotta pay for your lives. Like you got a
lipsying for your life, but you got a lip sync, Vermire,
You got a lipsy you gotta brush sync Vermire. Yeah,
and he's like, you know, okay, fair, fair, fair fair.
Here's the thing. I am an alcoholic and a morphine addict,
and I'm obviously in terrible withdrawal because I've been in prison.
(14:27):
Cannot work under these conditions because I was drunken high
while I was doing all my paintings. Do you think
you could get me drunk and high so that I
could do one final painting? And they're like, well, it
is Amsterdam, and we're not the Nazis. We just fought
a war to prove it. Okay, fine, okay, fine, okay, fine.
(14:49):
So they give him the stuff that he needs. Oh
my god, and he paints a painting called Christ in
the Temple and it looks.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Just like all the other paintings.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Wow, yep, and he's like, Okay, now that I've proven
that I did all these paintings, do you want to
know the story of why? Because it's not for Nazi reasons,
it's for different reasons. And he tells them this tale.
(15:18):
He's like, I am kind of a Robin Hood of art.
I was just a dreamer. I wanted to be an artist,
but the critics didn't like me. I had a good show,
but then I had a show that wasn't very well
reviewed and they wouldn't give me another chance.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
So I came up the plight of the sophomore novel.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
The plate of the sophomore Novel, he had like real
gifted kid burnout. Yeah, and he's like, I was so frustrated.
I wanted to get one over on the establishment. So
I thought, I'm gonna paint a for mirror and I'm
gonna trick everybody, and that'll show them that they're not
as smart as they think they are. And time is
(16:00):
good a painter as.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
A vermirey, it's a good plan.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
So I did, and I was proving a point. And
the judge is like, hmm, okay, you said you did
this for the principle, but you also sold it for
millions of dollars. Yeah, and Van Miegren's like, well, if
I'd sold it for twelve bucks, no one would have
thought it was a real vermire because that's not what
those sell for.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
I mean, good point point.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Van Migrant and literally everyone's like, god, that is so true.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
That is and also you know point van Migrant. Then
he gets millions of dollars.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Not a bad knock on effect. And he's like, okay,
so you know, the punishment for art forgery is two
years in prison. It's not death, So like, can we
hello hello? And they're like and also, you know, Herman
Gerring he paid money, but he also traded one hundred
and thirty seven Dutch paintings from his collection in exchange
(16:56):
for the vermire, So like I helped keep so many
Dutch paintings.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So many real Dutch paintings.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
In the country.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
You're welcome. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Why am I on trial for selling Dutch culture to
the Nazis when in fact I selled my own painting
in exchange for getting Dutch culture away from the Nazis?
How about instead of prison, you give me, I don't know,
a medal.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, thank you, thank you would be nice.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
You're we a parade.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
I also kind of I guess for me, I'm like why.
Maybe it's because forging art is illegal and maybe he
wants to keep this scam going. But it does feel
like after the war he should have been like, I
tricked the Nazis. Hey, everyone guess what ha ha.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
And maybe he would have. I mean it was only
three weeks after the war that they came knocking on
his door.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah, but even when they came knocking on his door,
he needed a little persuasion.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
He did. He did well.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Again, I mean, forging is illegal, and maybe he wanted
to keep selling ver mirror.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, maybe he just wanted to like f off to
you know, see see how the dust was gonna settle.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
But it does feel like he figured out the spin
and the court absolutely goes for this. Well, I mean
he's correct.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
They're like, well, you're not really supposed to make money
by lying to people, but the people you were lying
to were rich art collectors and Nazis, so okay, whatever,
a year in prison.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Tricking Nazis should be legal.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Oh absolutely. A newspaper poll finds that after the Prime Minister,
van Meegrin is the most popular person in the Netherlands. Ha ha,
And he really goes out on a high because a
month after his trial ends, he has a massive heart
attack and dies.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Wow he I mean, yeah, it gets to go out
of here.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
And everything I just told you is true in that
that is truly the version of events that Van Meegrin
told the court.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Oh no, double hoax.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
But Dana, this is a guy who made all of
his money by lying.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Oh, Lizzie, Oh no, what's gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Twisting the truth? So there's no other shoe to drop.
I just want to go back through the story with
more detail and more nuances.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Okay, Okay, so I shouldn't be on team van Miegren.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Well we're gonna go through it and you can decide
for yourself.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
That's the story that people in the Netherlands tell to
make him a folk hero. Yeah, and it omits things.
But it is fun.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
It's fun that a guy tricked the Nazis. And you know,
I'm sure the Nazis thought they were all elitist art
snobs who knew everything and they were just like tricked
by a guy. Yeah, that's fun.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
It's totally fun. What Yeah, it's not quite that so okay, okay, okay,
So we're gonna go back to the beginning. Yeap eighteen
eighty nine. Okay, Two men are born, both of whom
will dream of becoming artists.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Oh no, oh no, I think I know one of them.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
One's in Austrian You want to guess is his name
Adolf Hitler. His name is Adolf Hitler. We're not going
to follow him too closely, but I just think it's
interesting they were both born.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
The same year.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, let me check my notes. He will eke out
a living as an artist before enlisting in World War
One and coming back with some interesting ideas about entering
German politics. And again I'm just looking at my notes
here blaming the Jews.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yes, okay, So Hitler goes and does his thing.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yep, he does art and then does his thing. And
the other is han Van Meigrin. He was born in
the Netherlands to a middle class Catholic family, and his
dad sends him to school to become an architect, but
he very quickly decides to be an artist and a painter.
And then he gets his Protestant girlfriend Anna pregnant, so
he has to marry her and make some money. He
(20:33):
teaches for a bit and they have another kid, and
in nineteen seventeen they move to the Hague, which is
not as I picture it just one big.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Court, one big court house. It's also a place.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's a whole city, and at this point it is
actually like kind of the opposite of a court. It's
like a royal city and it's like a party town.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Fun. Yeah, seems fun for an artist totally.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And the Netherlands is neutral during the First World War,
which I think really sets the tone for how Van
Migrain is going to like approach right and wrong. Okay,
because I feel like, Dana, stop me if this is
not how you first learned history. But I feel like
(21:17):
before I really understood I don't know ethics on any
deeper level. You grow up hearing that like it's good
to get along with everybody and it's good to see
both sides of an issue, and then you hear like, oh, Switzerland,
is this like neutral country and the Netherlands can be
neutral and like neutral neutrals and you're like yeah, and
(21:38):
then you're like, oh, wait a minute, no, when there's
right and wrong, you're not supposed to be neutral. That's
second worst after.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Bad Like, yeah, so all all that need be for
the proliferation of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yeah, Like, if you're in the face of atrocities, you've
taken the side of the oppressor.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
So he's just kind of ignoring World War One. He's
partying it up in the Hague, where you know, people
are doing deals with both sides, and I do think
it influences his worldview that kind of right and wrong
are just abstract concepts, and right goes to the highest bidder.
(22:22):
He gets in with all the socialites and the party people.
He's like the go to guy for having your portrait
sketched or painted, and that's how he pals around with
all of the fanciest to do socialites. And he's making money,
but he's spending it kind of as fast as he
makes it. He has a girlfriend on the side, and
(22:43):
she really likes money. She's an actress. He does a
show of his artwork that goes pretty well, and then
he does a second that's a lot of religious imagery
that doesn't go as well. And again, like I said,
he was ignoring World War One, which had a huge
effect on art. Yeah, and he kind of like missed it.
(23:03):
He doesn't get what all of these abstract images are about,
which is like people trying to make sense of the
horrors of war, and like, why would you paint a
still life when mustard gas exists, Like, you know, people
are painting all of these abstract images and shapes to
try to reckon with the horrors. And he's like, h
(23:25):
that's terrible, gonna I'm gonna paint, you know. He like
gets a little bit famous for this, like drawing of
a deer that he does.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Oh all right, so he's like, I saw a deer
that was cool.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, and it's like, dude, you can work harder, Yeah,
you can try to figure out what's in the air. Yeah,
you could be original, but nope, he just wants to
paint like Jesus and cute girls. So yeah, he just
goes to copying older stuff that he'd like studied in school.
(23:57):
And you know, I don't think that your taste in
art necessarily reflects your taste in politics, but it is
worth noting the Nazis also aided modern art.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, they harkened back to two conservative in the classical
sense of imagery and ideology.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
He's not an open minded guy.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah, he likes the classics.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
He likes old fashioned things. Sometime between his first and
second shows, he gets involved in the underground art forgery scene,
which is like very robust, sure, like there's rings and
layers and art forgery is popping off in the way.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
It really does seem like before the Internet, it must
have been really easy just to forge things, because like,
how are you going to check?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah, how are you going to check? Like museums a
little bit made it easier to check, and they would
produce catalogs that had either pictures or at least descriptions,
so that you couldn't make duplicates of things, but you
could make artworks that didn't exist and pretend that they
existed quite easily.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
You're like, yeah, of course, the famous Vermire painting of
grapes and never.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Said yeah, yeah, yeah, dust grapes. At this time, forgers
were mostly copying artists who worked with tempera paints, because
with oil paints you actually have to let them harden
over hundreds of years or else they can be dissolved
with alcohol.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
So it's like pretty obvious it's a modern forgery.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yes to anyone who knows anything about art. So He
doesn't start with Vermire because Vermire worked in oils. He
starts with artists that we're just gonna skip because this
isn't about them. But basically he gets going for like
all of the twenties and into the thirties before he
sort of enters his copying the old Dutch Master's period.
He'll sort of spin it that he like just up
(25:51):
and out of the blue started copying Vermire. Like, no,
he had a full career, is an art forger. He
was a liar.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Do I think that he cared about getting one over
on the establishment? Yes? I also think he liked making
money and wanted to keep making money.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah, like you are quote unquote getting one over on
the establishment because the establishment didn't make him rich with
his own paintings. So he's like, great, I see he
smelled an opportunity. It sounds like.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Absolutely and if it works once, it can work again.
He became a really intense alcoholic. He partied a lot.
He bought a giant apartment along the French Riviera and
like hung out in France. A bunch must be nice,
must be nice, as that other guy is coming to power,
the other failed artist. He starts making vermires. I will
(26:45):
say the art market in Europe at this time is
pretty scarce. A lot of museums and collectors have packed
up their wares and either hidden them or ship them
overseas because they tell that war is going.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I was gonna say, oh, is something happening in Europe.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, things are kind of bad, so it's not exactly
war profiteering, but it is sort of opportunism.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
And it also helps that there are not other real
vermeures on display for people to compare things to sure
and he has two big innovations. Number one is that
he discovers through a lot of trial and error that
if you mix the oil paints with bake light, which
is a plastic that you can get in liquid form,
(27:30):
and then you put it in the oven, it'll harden
so it can pass the alcohol test. And number two,
he realizes that the way to dupe people is not
to make an almost perfect vermire, because if you paint really,
really close to the style of vermire, people will just
(27:50):
see the small ways in which it is not vermere. Okay,
the thing to do is create an original painting and
add a lot of vermir touches so that people go, oh,
I didn't know Vermir did a this. Yeah, and there's
no real analog to compare it to.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, it's not a copy of a Vermir. It's like
a new type of Vermire.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
And he invents this new period of Vermir's paintings in
which he did a bunch of religious paintings because that's
like kind of his whole deal. And this theory that
Vermir had had a biblical phase had also sort of
been proffered by this guy, Dirk Hannema, who is the
(28:38):
director of a museum in Rotterdam. So he's also a
little bit like planting seeds that he knows Dirk wants
to harvest.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
So he's he's creating a lie that people are ready
to believe.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yes, and that like you know, I guess that could
be true according to this one sort of expert guy.
It's also just funny because like now, in hindsight, they
don't look anything like Vermire's.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
In nineteen thirty seven, he completes this painting, The Supper
at Emmaeus, which shows Jesus and some of his disciples
eating bread after the resurrection and through intermediaries.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
That's a cute scene. Yeah, it's like, hey, guys, I'm back.
You want to like hang out, grab lunch.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
It's he was like wandering through I think the desert
and he meets his old disciples and at first they
don't recognize him, and then they're like, wait a minute,
didn't we bury you a few days ago? And he's like,
it's me.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
I'm back. Good, grab a bite, I'm starving.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, And through intermediaries, he calls up Abraham rediis the
Pope of Vermires, and they show him the painting and
they're like, well, this says a Vermire signature on it.
What do you think And he's like, I found a
new Vermire.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Yes, oh, because it's another it's a lie people want
to believe because it would like make this guy's career.
He found a new Vermire.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
He found a new Vermire. And not only did he
find a new from here, it's the best for beer
in the world. Ah.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
He loves it.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
He's like, this is his masterpiece. This is fuck girl
with a pearl earring, fuck that milkmaid. Yeah, this is
the best Vermire in the whole world. And they and
he calls up like another expert to be like, look
at this romire I found and the other expert is like,
that is fake. Yeah, it looks so fake, and Abraham
Brettis is like no, no, no, no no, and he
(30:21):
publishes a thing in like you know, the most whatever
August Journal of the Day being like new Vermere got
new Vermere found it some you know old farming family
happened to have it in their attic. Don't worry about
it now Mere And uh, the Dirk Hanna, the director
of the museum that I mentioned, he buys it for
(30:42):
many millions of pounds because tale's old as time. His
museum didn't have ver here.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I want to have a Vermire, and he.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Wanted to compete with all the other museums that had
all the Dutch masters still the god of Vermire. And
now Van Migrant has kind of kind of got it
made because he has his process and he doesn't even
really need to make more vermiersh paintings. He just needs
to make more paintings that look like supparadimais because now
he's established that that's a Vermire.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
That's the style. And now have you matched the style?
You've done it right?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Like now he's established that, like, oh, Vermire had this
here too, four unknown period where he painted like this,
and he painted these types of things. So he paints
like just another picture of Jesus, more Bible scenes and
he and they get kind of like worse and worse.
But people just keep believing it because it's like, oh, yeah,
like I guess it's all from that period where Vermir
painted like this.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
And it also is like it's like one hundred percent
true that this is a painting by the guy who
painted stuff for you. One hundred percent got nailed it.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, Like it's just that that guy's not named Vermir,
he's named van Negren. Yeah. Yeah, to his credit, I guess,
like he is quite attentive to detail. He uses the
exact materials that Vermiir used, He uses the exact brushes
that Vermiir used. He paints on top of canvases from
(32:04):
Vermier's time. Like it is a good forgery.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
It's not a lazy forge it.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
It's not a lazy forgery. You know, we talk on
this podcast like were people in the past dumb, Like nope,
Like this is a very he's a very skilled forger.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
What were they going to do? Google it?
Speaker 2 (32:20):
No? No, And this is uh, this is not something
that they could do. A Dutch museum buys his Washing
of the Feet painting using sixty percent of their budget.
Oh no, that they have because they want to keep
it in the country and keep the Germans from getting it.
And it's so ugly. And he just really has exposed
(32:41):
the art world. But like he just hasn't said that
he exposed them.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, he's taking advantage.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
So okay, I mean it's like a bummer, but like
I kind of want to pause here to talk about like,
at this point, the Nazis have occupied the Netherlands. I
don't know if he was seeking out buyers once the
word is out there. I don't know if he could
control who bought his paintings. Yeah, I don't know if
(33:10):
he could have refused to sell them to Nazis, and
I don't think he would have.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
And it's also it's so just to be clear, he
didn't like do this for it. He wasn't just like
a guy who's like, I'm gonna trick Nazis.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
No, he was one to hear it.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Who was selling to whoever was buying.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
He was selling to whoever was buying. I mean, human
life is always more important than a painting, so like
I would never expect anyone to stick their neck out
really in any way over issues of painting. Yeah, like
when you hear Nazi collaborator, You're like, oh, fuck that guy.
And then when you hear like painting seller, I'm like,
(33:51):
I don't know about that. And then if it were
a real vermire, then that's sort of in a gray
area because it is like a cultural artifact. But if
it is just a forgery, like.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
And he it's not like he thought it was a vermier.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah, like let whoever wants to buy it buy it,
like he you know.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
You know what if I I understand where it's like
if I was making forgeries and someone I freaking hated
was like, I'll pay you millions of dollars for this
worthless garbage, I'd be like great. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
But it's also I mean, and we got into this
in like the Salvatory MOUNDI episode where like the prince
who has like overseen executions bought that painting at auction though,
and you can't control who enters an auction. Like once
you're in bed with skive people, you're in bed with
skive people. Yeah, like period, period, and like it doesn't
get much skivier than the Nazis. On the record, on
(34:41):
the record, yeah, Liz Logan anti Nazi. He divorces his
second wife.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Oh so' already on a second one.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Already on his second wife, but only so that if
he's caught and his money is taken away, that they
won't get most of his money because he gives her
all his money. Okay, all right, So he over the
course of his career has a mass or spent. I
don't know how much he like has in the bank,
but basically he earns thirty million dollars wow, in like
(35:07):
today's money. So he really lived the high life while
people were starving. He could have quit at any point.
He didn't need to keep doing that.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Well, he probably could have. He kept selling forgery's to Nazis,
but like used the money to help people, which I
imagine he did not do.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yeah, and he was really living the high life.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
So nineteen forty five, knock at the door, Van Meegren
is arrested. Shortly after he's arrested, while the Allies are
cleaning out one of Hitler's libraries, they find a book
of Van Meegren's drawings that Van Meegren had sent to
Hitler in nineteen forty two of.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Quote unquote Vermire drawings or Van Meegren drawings Van.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Megran drawings, and had handwritten a dedication that began to
my beloved fereor Oh. The book included poems that were
written by member of the SS, who Van Miegrin had
met on at least one occasion. M And Van Miegrin's like, okay,
that's my signature. But somebody else wrote the dedication and
they're like, well, this is your exact handwriting. Although you know,
(36:12):
when we're talking forgers, I guess I know what I
can do a Bundyboter's handwriters.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, But also it sounds like
he this guy was willing to make Nazis happy if
it means they would pay him millions of dollars.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
To me, he's really like the characters in the Sound
of Music who are just willing to go along to
get along. He's the baron, the baroness and her friend,
her gay best friend. Yes, yeah, And it's like, you know,
at some point you gotta make a stand. Do I
know if he had hate in his heart? I don't know,
(36:45):
But like there's pictures of him standing next to SS officers,
Like that's so horrible.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
It's so interesting, and I feel like there needs to
be a play about this guy, if there isn't already,
because it is so easy to just make him a
hero where it's he's a guy who duped Nazis. Isn't
that funny? And it is funn it is funny, and
like you do want that just to be a hero.
But you're like, and he was just a bad guy.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah, it's like why were you in bed with Nazis
in the first place. I sort of felt like if
he had real vermrrors.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
He would have sold those to Nazis. Right.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
It's one of those things where it's like, hey, guess what.
I guess what I stole when I was at this
Nazis house. And it's like, Dana, why were you at
the Nazis house? Like it's one of those things where
you hear a great story and then you're like, wait
a minute. You know, like another sort of point of
interest I guess is the way he laundered all his
money is by buying houses. How many of those houses
(37:39):
in Amsterdam were empty because a tenth of Amsterdam was
Jewish and had recently been shipped out of Amsterdam. I
don't know. Yeah, did he mean to do that or
was just that the real estate that was available.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Probably, I don't know both.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, So we're in nineteen forty five. Hermann Gering is
on trial in Nuremberg along with the rest of us,
the top Nazi officials. It's unclear if he ever found
out his vermiir was a fake.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
I hope he did.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I hope he did too, And some sources have written
that he did, and then other sources are like, yeah,
we'd like to think that, but there's no evidence that he.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Did plastic lie. We all want to believe. You all
want to find out someone him to be like, well,
at least I got to look and hold of vermire
and someone's like it was a fake.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Yeah. He was convicted of many things, including crimes against humanity. Yes,
and he was sentenced to be hanged. But the night
before he was supposed to that was supposed to happen,
he committed suicide with the cyanide pill. Van Meegren's trial,
which is not in Durremberg, it's in Amsterdam because I
don't think he broke international law. I think it was
just Dutch law. It doesn't actually happen until nineteen forty seven.
(38:43):
And I'm just speculating here, but I think he benefited
from going after like the big guys. Yeah, yeah, because
if it is nineteen forty five, the war has just ended,
and you hear guy got money from Nazi, You're like, hang, yeah,
(39:03):
And then you watch the Nuremberg Trial and you hear
about the most horrific things in the world.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
And the torture and manipulation and murder and like truly
crimes against humans, really the worst.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Things that humans have ever done to each other. And
then you see this guy who, to be clear, as
far as we know, never held a gun. Yeah, was
never enlisted as a member of the Nazi party, never
visited a camp, never wore a Nazi uniform, like, never
did any of those things.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Just he was looking out for number one.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
And kind of the worst piece of evidence against him
is that he sent a guy a book five years prior. Yeah,
I don't think there's that much juice to be like
get him.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
You're like, that's it's funny because in a certain light,
that light you tell me, You're like, well, that's just
a selfish guy who was looking out for number one.
And then also, like you said, he was like became
a beloved figure in the Netherlands because it's like, you
can be a folk hero because you're actually he tricked
the Nazis.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
It's just like, don't we have bigger fish to fry
than the art forger who sent Hitler a book?
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Like, are you serious? Do you remember what we saw
at Nuremberg? Like, shouldn't we be going to Argentina and
hunting down the Gestapo captains who got away? I don't
give Like I think a lot of people were like,
who gives a shit what the art forger did? No,
I don't care.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Yeah, you're like, and he forged them. They weren't real
ver me whatever man.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
So I do think like that's a little bit the
vibe that he walks into when he starts weaving his
tail of being a folk hero.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
And the people of the Netherlands at this point are like, well,
this could kind of be interpreted one of two ways.
Either one of our guys because he is Dutch. Yeah,
Either one of our guys has been duping people about
one of our favorite guys, Vermir and also collaborating with
one of the worst guys gurring or one of our
(41:10):
guys is super smart and got one over on one
of the really awful guys.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Yeah. It's a fun story because it makes the Nazis
look dumb and.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Gullible, and it makes the Dutch look awesome.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, smart, and they're tricksters. Yeah great, be on the
team of the fun trickster and not the the you know,
horrible Nazi collaborator.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah. So ultimately they're like, you know, Han was on
whatever side was good for Han. The painting in the
court was really a publicity stunt. They covered up the
fact that he was a Nazi sympathizer. That detail was
in the paper, but it never really came before the court.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
It kind of sorry to interrupret it as like multiple
layers of hoaxes, because it's a lot of people wanting
to frame information in the way that they want they
want to believe the story that they want to believe,
and that happens I feel like like six different times
in this story.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
And the last big hoax is kind of been migrant's reputation.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
You might even say it was forged. The judge apparently
was very swayed by all the psychiatrists who said that
he was like super bummed out by the bad reviews
that his previous art show had gotten, and so gave
him a lesser sentence because of that.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
I also want to say, if anyone ever gives me
bad reviews, I want permission to do crimes.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
But not with Nazis.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
No, no, never with Nazis, but just crimes in general. Sure,
sure if I'm bummed out, so they're.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
You know, they're latching onto like whatever rationale besides fascism
that they can. He was a con man.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
He was a con man.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
He was a con man. Should he have gotten more
time in prison? I have absolutely no idea. He died
pretty much immediately, so, like whatever. He was fifty eight
and he got all that fame that he wanted. He's
known as the most successful forger of all time.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
And he was a He was able not only to
forge Vermire's but forge a reputation for himself as a
folk hero.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Exactly his greatest forgery, Dana, we can't play who would
cast this in a movie? Because there already was a
movie about that.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
There was because I'm like, this would be a good movie,
and also I feel it would be a good play.
What was the movie?
Speaker 2 (43:16):
It's called The Last Vermire came out in twenty twenty one.
Guy Pierce plays Van Niegren.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Was it good?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
I watched the trailer, but I didn't want to watch
the movie because I didn't want to accidentally ingest fiction. Yes,
like I didn't want to have that color my understanding.
I do believe that this whole episode like improved art
history's accuracy, Like you can't really ask someone's opinion, Like
(43:46):
just asking an expert's opinion is no longer enough to
verify that a certain painter did a certain painting. Yeah,
but I there was a really interesting BBC documentary about
this that I watched that made a point that I
want to end on great or we can keep talking,
but I want to include, which is that at this
time there was another forger working in Amsterdam named Alice Cohne.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Let's but keep going.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Do you know who she is?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
No? But I hear a Jewish name.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yes. So she deserves all of the admiration and full
hero status that Van Meegren got because she used her
forger skills to make fake identity cards for Jews that
didn't identify them as Jews so that they weren't targeted
or shipped out or sent to work camps. And she
(44:38):
saved hundreds of lives and her entire family was killed
by the Nazis, but she survived the war and she
got married and had kids. Dana has goose both and
she's showing me and she lived to the year two thousand.
So Alice Cohne is the hero. Van Meegren had a
very funny story that you can totally think is funny.
(44:58):
But Alice Cone is the hero this episode, so look
her up if you're looking for a hero. Listeners, Oh,
I love that because she could She could forge things too.
She could forge signatures and stamps and other sort of
official government documents.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
Lizzie. That's such a good note to end on. Thank
you documentary, and thank you Lizzie.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Please find us online on Instagram, Hoax the Pod. Email
us if you have anything to say Hoax Thepodcast at
gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah, give us a rating, a review, subscription, it really helps,
and share it with a friend you think would be interested.
We love telling the stories and we really want to
keep going.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
If you have ideas for merch for us, send that
to the email.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
I'm gonna be doing merch.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
I don't know so of the first I've heard of it,
I haven't. I haven't thought of it. If someone has
a good idea for merch, send it or requests send
it to Instagram or the email. Yeah, thank you so
much for listening. We have a blast doing this.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Please hoax responsibly. Bye. Hoax is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Our hosts are Danas Schwortz and Lizzie Logan. Our executive
producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young, with supervising producer
(46:15):
Rima L. Kali and producers Nomes Griffin and Jesse Funk.
Our theme music was composed by Laine Montgomery. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.
You're listening to Hoax, a production of iHeart Podcasts. Folks.
It's a huge I haven't seen what us.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
See the.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Welcome to Hoax, a podcast about the lies we wish we're.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
True and truths that sound like lies. I'm the ghost
of Danish Wartz and I'm the evil twin of Lizzie Logan.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hey Dana, Hey, so today, I have a couple tiny
disclaimers before we get into the episode. Okay, agree. Number one,
I just want to shout out my niece Asha for
suggesting this topic.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Oh my god, that's adorable. I know.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you Asha for being a fan.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
And how old is your niece?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
She is an adult. I think the word east throws people.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
It's not adorable then, no, it's like.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Sweet, that sweet that she listens.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Well, thank you adult, Thank you for listening to the show. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
On the topic of this being a podcast mostly for adults, yeah,
we are going to be talking Nazi on this episode.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Cool. Cool.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
So if you just aren't in the headspace for that,
or you have small children in the car, you know,
maybe go to the Coddingly Fairies episode. It's very family friendly.
Good to know, all right, With all that in mind, Dana,
what do you know about art theft during World War
Two and the paintings of Vermir.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
I mean, I'm very excited because I know very little,
but it all sounds very mysterious.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
It is mysterious.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I think Nazis stole a bunch of paintings that belong
to Jewish people. Yes, that's sort of my general impression.
So I don't know where this episode is going.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
It's coming all over the place.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I can't wait.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I would say that this episode is like, it's like
one of those Judge Judy episodes where someone couldn't have
although I guess they'd do murder, but like it's like
one of those jokes or something where someone's like, no,
I couldn't have. I'm not guilty because at the time
that my wife was murdered, I was with my mistress.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Where it's like they didn't do the crime because they
were busy doing another crime.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I was getting light boat sections.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Like the alibi isn't as bad as the crime, but
it's still it's still embarrassing. Okay, So, during the Second
World War, the Nazis are just looting left and right.
Some of the biggest art dealers and art collectors in
Europe are Jewish families, and so the Nazis take anything
they can get their hands on. How convenient for them,
(02:41):
how convenient for them. And Herman Gerring who is he
is like the top guy in the Nazi military. Okay,
he's like head of the air force. And then when
they take over Prussia, he's going to get put in
charge of Prussia. He is a top guy. He's a
(03:01):
big art fanatic and he collects like over a thousand
pieces of art. He's like that this is his you know,
besides the military. This is his passion is collecting art. Sure,
and he when the war ends, he turns himself in
to the Allies. But before he turns himself in, he
(03:22):
had I think a plan to escape or run away.
He tries to hide all of his art treasures. The
war ends and the Allies discover his art stash, and
among his stash they find a vermire.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
And just for a little context, was this like a
looted slash stolen stash or like a purchased stash or both?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well? So both because purchasing, if you go and you
point a gun in someone's face and you say sell
me this painting for the price that I say, like, yeah,
you're purchasing it, but like you're also kind of looting
it because you're gonna name a really unfair price.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
But that will a little bit come into play later,
like whether it's ever you know, whether there is like
ethical consumption under Nazis, but like whether you can ever
be held responsible for selling something to a Nazi Like
that will come into play later.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Interesting. Okay, so they find the Allies find his his.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
His enormous art stash and his prized possession. The most
expensive thing he has is a Vermire called Christ and
the Adulteress. Ooh yes, and this is at the time
it would have been one of the most expensive paintings
ever sold. There are not very many Vermirs in the world.
(04:41):
You don't need to know that much about Vermir for
this episode of Girl the Pearliering is one of his paintings. Basically,
Vermir lived a whole long time ago in the Netherlands.
He lived in a city called Delft, and there are
only thirty five or so surviving paintings, and we don't
know much about his life.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Well, I read the book The Girl with the Parlata,
which seemed to be incredibly detailed about his life. Given
that it is a novel and it is not real.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
It could be real. Because we don't know very much
about his life, there are a lot of gaps, and
finding Gering's art stash is not just a happy coincidence.
The Allies are very intentional about finding stolen art and
returning it to its proper owners. This is a whole
office that they have.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Like post war, this is something that we're putting energy towards.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Oh yes, like three weeks post war, like right after
the end of the war. They want to track down
every piece of art. This is something that they're taking
very very seriously because the Nazis were very intentional about
collecting all of the cultural treasures. So the Allies really
want to, with just as much focus and intentionality, undo
(05:57):
that and get everybody's art back to where it's been
to go. Great, I'm pro that for the record, Yes,
all right. So they trace this vermire to a dealer
named and I'm going to mess up this name, Alice
Aloys Aloys midyl Okay, who is not super important to
(06:19):
the story, but I think is really interesting. When I
was researching this episode, like I realized how much stuff
I didn't know about World War two, even though it
feels like we've all heard about World War two our
whole lives. He was a Nazi banker.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Is he how Goring got this painting? That's the connection? Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
He was a banker, and he would facilitate trades of
like looted and stolen artworks and property and jewelry and
Jewish treasures. And this is the just crazy thing that
I was Like, his wife was Jewish, Oh my god,
(07:00):
and he had he got her declared an honorary riyan,
which I didn't know was a thing. How many years,
how many movies have I seen? I didn't know honorary
arian was a thing?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Oh god, that's so like freaky of him and viscerally
uncomfortable in a lot of different ways.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, and anyway, but so okay, So they trace it
to him, and he at this point has fled to Spain,
sure where like right at the end of the war,
when it became clear that the Germans were going to
lose the war, he fled to Spain. He gave back
some of his paintings, he sold some others, and then
he got to just live to nineteen seventy. So wow,
(07:41):
a lot of people just got away with it.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
You could have just been like walking through Barcelona sipping
a wine after your CS and just run into this guy.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
But the guy that he got it from is this
Dutchman named Han van Niegrin. Okay, So they go to
Han's house.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Because they're this is like the Allies after the war,
trying to figure out where this painting belongs.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Where this painting belongs and who sold it to Hermann Gerring.
Doing business with the Nazis is first of all not okay.
Second of all, in Amsterdam, Vermir is considered like one
of their main guys, like old Dutch masters, and to
sell a Vermiir to a Nazi, even through a third party,
is considered like basically treason.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah you sold who who got this Nazi money in
exchange for Everymir? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
You you have sold our cultural heritage to I mean
the Netherlands was taken over, was occupied territory, so you
sold our cultural heritage to our occupiers. Yeah, bad, bad, bad, bad,
bad bad bad bad bad did it? So they trace
it to Han van Meigran and they knock on his door.
This is three weeks after the war has ended, and
(08:55):
they're like, hey, Vanmigrn, so you have this vermire that
ended up in a in a Nazi collection collection of
like the like one of the top Nazis. Where'd you
get it? And he's like, oh so familiar, brilliant, good novel.
(09:22):
And they're like, okay, what if we march you at
gunpoint to the prison where Anne Frank's family was held
before they got put on a train to the camps. Whoa,
they're not effing around. Okay, this is three weeks after
the end of the war. The Allies are not effing around.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
So they march him to the prison and they're like, Okay,
now that you're in prison, you want to tell us
where you got the vermire. He's like, that doesn't sound
like me. It sounds like you got bad information. And
they're like, I don't know if you know this, but
selling Dutch culture to the Nazis that's a capital crime. Yeah,
(10:08):
you can die for that. You can literally be killed
for that. That is how much people hate the Nazis for.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
I'm gonna say for good reasion.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, this is we don't care that you never wore
like an SS uniform people in Amsterdam, they hate you
so much, will kill you for this.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, you gave him a vermire.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
You gave him a vermire. Do you want to tell
us where you got it? And maybe try to plea
this thing down. Oh and they also had noticed that.
So the Netherlands is like pretty poor at this point.
It's been occupied by the Nazis. They just survived like
the winter of starvation. And this guy is super rich.
He's been throwing parties and eating caviar. And they're like, hey,
(10:53):
would you get all this money if you're not selling vermires? Yeah,
and he's like, oh, I sold some Flemish paintings right
before the war started.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, real caviar money. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
And they're like okay, so you could die. So do
you want to tell us where you got the vermire?
And he's like, okay, give me a sec the painting
loophole painted it myself. Oh, can't send me to my
death for selling a vermire. If it wasn't a vermire.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I sold them a Jeff whenever. This guy's name is Hans, Yeah,
I sold them a Han.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
And they're like, okay, nice, try that's a fun loophole.
But this Vermire is from like a period of Vermires.
This is from like a series of six or seven
paintings from Vermire's biblical phase, all of which have entered
the art market over the past like decade. And you
(11:57):
had a hand in selling all of them. You're just
gonna tell us that you didn't know any of them
were gonna end up in Nazi hands, and you just
happen to have painted this one. And he's like, oh, yeah, no,
I painted all of them. None of those are Vermires.
I'm just an art forger. I'm just a really good
art forger.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, this is funny. I like this guy.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
And they're like okay. So they go to.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Court, so he has to prove that he forged paintings
that to sell to the Nazis, rather than the fact
that he sold Vermires to the Nazis. Yes, it's funny
because you think he would have been excited that he
tricked the Nazis. You think he would have been like
proud about it.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
He is he is, and he's also fighting for his life.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
So they go to court and they examine the paintings
and there they run chemical tests and the scientists are
like Okay, it's possible that these are not by Vermire.
And they bring in this guy, Abraham Brettius, who is
known as the Pope of Vermire because he is the
most well known, well respected Vermire scholar, and they're like,
(13:05):
what do you think and he's like, no, that's ver Mir,
that's totally by Vermire. They're like, okay, but you're the
one who said it was by Vermire in the first place,
so maybe maybe you're just trying to like save your
own reputation, so okay, never mind, never mind, And Van
Meegren's like, Okay, if you X ray the paintings, I'll
(13:26):
tell you what's underneath them. Yeah, and he can, and
they're like, okay, so these are not by Vermire.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah. You also think they could have just done like
a big eyes and been like, can you, okay, paint one.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
For us, Dana. That's the next thing they do great
because they're like, Okay, we've proven that they're not by
Vermere and that you saw the canvases before they were
painted on, But that doesn't mean that you painted them.
You could have had somebody else paint them. You could
have had a collaborator who you're not naming to prove
that you and you alone painted all of these vermires
quote unquote Vermires. We're gonna give you six weeks, a
(14:00):
little house, some paint, and a canvas, and you gotta paint.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Pay for your life.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
You gotta pay for your lives. Like you got a
lipsying for your life, but you got a lip sync, Vermire,
You got a lipsy you gotta brush sync Vermire. Yeah,
and he's like, you know, okay, fair, fair, fair fair.
Here's the thing. I am an alcoholic and a morphine addict,
and I'm obviously in terrible withdrawal because I've been in prison.
(14:27):
Cannot work under these conditions because I was drunken high
while I was doing all my paintings. Do you think
you could get me drunk and high so that I
could do one final painting? And they're like, well, it
is Amsterdam, and we're not the Nazis. We just fought
a war to prove it. Okay, fine, okay, fine, okay, fine.
(14:49):
So they give him the stuff that he needs. Oh
my god, and he paints a painting called Christ in
the Temple and it looks.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Just like all the other paintings.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Wow, yep, and he's like, Okay, now that I've proven
that I did all these paintings, do you want to
know the story of why? Because it's not for Nazi reasons,
it's for different reasons. And he tells them this tale.
(15:18):
He's like, I am kind of a Robin Hood of art.
I was just a dreamer. I wanted to be an artist,
but the critics didn't like me. I had a good show,
but then I had a show that wasn't very well
reviewed and they wouldn't give me another chance.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
So I came up the plight of the sophomore novel.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
The plate of the sophomore Novel, he had like real
gifted kid burnout. Yeah, and he's like, I was so frustrated.
I wanted to get one over on the establishment. So
I thought, I'm gonna paint a for mirror and I'm
gonna trick everybody, and that'll show them that they're not
as smart as they think they are. And time is
(16:00):
good a painter as.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
A vermirey, it's a good plan.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
So I did, and I was proving a point. And
the judge is like, hmm, okay, you said you did
this for the principle, but you also sold it for
millions of dollars. Yeah, and Van Miegren's like, well, if
I'd sold it for twelve bucks, no one would have
thought it was a real vermire because that's not what
those sell for.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
I mean, good point point.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Van Migrant and literally everyone's like, god, that is so true.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
That is and also you know point van Migrant. Then
he gets millions of dollars.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Not a bad knock on effect. And he's like, okay,
so you know, the punishment for art forgery is two
years in prison. It's not death, So like, can we
hello hello? And they're like and also, you know, Herman
Gerring he paid money, but he also traded one hundred
and thirty seven Dutch paintings from his collection in exchange
(16:56):
for the vermire, So like I helped keep so many
Dutch paintings.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So many real Dutch paintings.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
In the country.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
You're welcome. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Why am I on trial for selling Dutch culture to
the Nazis when in fact I selled my own painting
in exchange for getting Dutch culture away from the Nazis?
How about instead of prison, you give me, I don't know,
a medal.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, thank you, thank you would be nice.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
You're we a parade.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
I also kind of I guess for me, I'm like why.
Maybe it's because forging art is illegal and maybe he
wants to keep this scam going. But it does feel
like after the war he should have been like, I
tricked the Nazis. Hey, everyone guess what ha ha.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
And maybe he would have. I mean it was only
three weeks after the war that they came knocking on
his door.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah, but even when they came knocking on his door,
he needed a little persuasion.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
He did. He did well.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Again, I mean, forging is illegal, and maybe he wanted
to keep selling ver mirror.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, maybe he just wanted to like f off to
you know, see see how the dust was gonna settle.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
But it does feel like he figured out the spin
and the court absolutely goes for this. Well, I mean
he's correct.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
They're like, well, you're not really supposed to make money
by lying to people, but the people you were lying
to were rich art collectors and Nazis, so okay, whatever,
a year in prison.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Tricking Nazis should be legal.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Oh absolutely. A newspaper poll finds that after the Prime Minister,
van Meegrin is the most popular person in the Netherlands. Ha ha,
And he really goes out on a high because a
month after his trial ends, he has a massive heart
attack and dies.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Wow he I mean, yeah, it gets to go out
of here.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
And everything I just told you is true in that
that is truly the version of events that Van Meegrin
told the court.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Oh no, double hoax.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
But Dana, this is a guy who made all of
his money by lying.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Oh, Lizzie, Oh no, what's gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Twisting the truth? So there's no other shoe to drop.
I just want to go back through the story with
more detail and more nuances.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Okay, Okay, so I shouldn't be on team van Miegren.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Well we're gonna go through it and you can decide
for yourself.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
That's the story that people in the Netherlands tell to
make him a folk hero. Yeah, and it omits things.
But it is fun.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
It's fun that a guy tricked the Nazis. And you know,
I'm sure the Nazis thought they were all elitist art
snobs who knew everything and they were just like tricked
by a guy. Yeah, that's fun.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
It's totally fun. What Yeah, it's not quite that so okay, okay, okay,
So we're gonna go back to the beginning. Yeap eighteen
eighty nine. Okay, Two men are born, both of whom
will dream of becoming artists.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Oh no, oh no, I think I know one of them.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
One's in Austrian You want to guess is his name
Adolf Hitler. His name is Adolf Hitler. We're not going
to follow him too closely, but I just think it's
interesting they were both born.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
The same year.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, let me check my notes. He will eke out
a living as an artist before enlisting in World War
One and coming back with some interesting ideas about entering
German politics. And again I'm just looking at my notes
here blaming the Jews.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yes, okay, So Hitler goes and does his thing.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yep, he does art and then does his thing. And
the other is han Van Meigrin. He was born in
the Netherlands to a middle class Catholic family, and his
dad sends him to school to become an architect, but
he very quickly decides to be an artist and a painter.
And then he gets his Protestant girlfriend Anna pregnant, so
he has to marry her and make some money. He
(20:33):
teaches for a bit and they have another kid, and
in nineteen seventeen they move to the Hague, which is
not as I picture it just one big.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Court, one big court house. It's also a place.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's a whole city, and at this point it is
actually like kind of the opposite of a court. It's
like a royal city and it's like a party town.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Fun. Yeah, seems fun for an artist totally.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And the Netherlands is neutral during the First World War,
which I think really sets the tone for how Van
Migrain is going to like approach right and wrong. Okay,
because I feel like, Dana, stop me if this is
not how you first learned history. But I feel like
(21:17):
before I really understood I don't know ethics on any
deeper level. You grow up hearing that like it's good
to get along with everybody and it's good to see
both sides of an issue, and then you hear like, oh, Switzerland,
is this like neutral country and the Netherlands can be
neutral and like neutral neutrals and you're like yeah, and
(21:38):
then you're like, oh, wait a minute, no, when there's
right and wrong, you're not supposed to be neutral. That's
second worst after.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Bad Like, yeah, so all all that need be for
the proliferation of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yeah, Like, if you're in the face of atrocities, you've
taken the side of the oppressor.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
So he's just kind of ignoring World War One. He's
partying it up in the Hague, where you know, people
are doing deals with both sides, and I do think
it influences his worldview that kind of right and wrong
are just abstract concepts, and right goes to the highest bidder.
(22:22):
He gets in with all the socialites and the party people.
He's like the go to guy for having your portrait
sketched or painted, and that's how he pals around with
all of the fanciest to do socialites. And he's making money,
but he's spending it kind of as fast as he
makes it. He has a girlfriend on the side, and
(22:43):
she really likes money. She's an actress. He does a
show of his artwork that goes pretty well, and then
he does a second that's a lot of religious imagery
that doesn't go as well. And again, like I said,
he was ignoring World War One, which had a huge
effect on art. Yeah, and he kind of like missed it.
(23:03):
He doesn't get what all of these abstract images are about,
which is like people trying to make sense of the
horrors of war, and like, why would you paint a
still life when mustard gas exists, Like, you know, people
are painting all of these abstract images and shapes to
try to reckon with the horrors. And he's like, h
(23:25):
that's terrible, gonna I'm gonna paint, you know. He like
gets a little bit famous for this, like drawing of
a deer that he does.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Oh all right, so he's like, I saw a deer
that was cool.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, and it's like, dude, you can work harder, Yeah,
you can try to figure out what's in the air. Yeah,
you could be original, but nope, he just wants to
paint like Jesus and cute girls. So yeah, he just
goes to copying older stuff that he'd like studied in school.
(23:57):
And you know, I don't think that your taste in
art necessarily reflects your taste in politics, but it is
worth noting the Nazis also aided modern art.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, they harkened back to two conservative in the classical
sense of imagery and ideology.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
He's not an open minded guy.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah, he likes the classics.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
He likes old fashioned things. Sometime between his first and
second shows, he gets involved in the underground art forgery scene,
which is like very robust, sure, like there's rings and
layers and art forgery is popping off in the way.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
It really does seem like before the Internet, it must
have been really easy just to forge things, because like,
how are you going to check?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah, how are you going to check? Like museums a
little bit made it easier to check, and they would
produce catalogs that had either pictures or at least descriptions,
so that you couldn't make duplicates of things, but you
could make artworks that didn't exist and pretend that they
existed quite easily.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
You're like, yeah, of course, the famous Vermire painting of
grapes and never.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Said yeah, yeah, yeah, dust grapes. At this time, forgers
were mostly copying artists who worked with tempera paints, because
with oil paints you actually have to let them harden
over hundreds of years or else they can be dissolved
with alcohol.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
So it's like pretty obvious it's a modern forgery.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yes to anyone who knows anything about art. So He
doesn't start with Vermire because Vermire worked in oils. He
starts with artists that we're just gonna skip because this
isn't about them. But basically he gets going for like
all of the twenties and into the thirties before he
sort of enters his copying the old Dutch Master's period.
He'll sort of spin it that he like just up
(25:51):
and out of the blue started copying Vermire. Like, no,
he had a full career, is an art forger. He
was a liar.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Do I think that he cared about getting one over
on the establishment? Yes? I also think he liked making
money and wanted to keep making money.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah, like you are quote unquote getting one over on
the establishment because the establishment didn't make him rich with
his own paintings. So he's like, great, I see he
smelled an opportunity. It sounds like.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Absolutely and if it works once, it can work again.
He became a really intense alcoholic. He partied a lot.
He bought a giant apartment along the French Riviera and
like hung out in France. A bunch must be nice,
must be nice, as that other guy is coming to power,
the other failed artist. He starts making vermires. I will
(26:45):
say the art market in Europe at this time is
pretty scarce. A lot of museums and collectors have packed
up their wares and either hidden them or ship them
overseas because they tell that war is going.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I was gonna say, oh, is something happening in Europe.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, things are kind of bad, so it's not exactly
war profiteering, but it is sort of opportunism.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
And it also helps that there are not other real
vermeures on display for people to compare things to sure
and he has two big innovations. Number one is that
he discovers through a lot of trial and error that
if you mix the oil paints with bake light, which
is a plastic that you can get in liquid form,
(27:30):
and then you put it in the oven, it'll harden
so it can pass the alcohol test. And number two,
he realizes that the way to dupe people is not
to make an almost perfect vermire, because if you paint really,
really close to the style of vermire, people will just
(27:50):
see the small ways in which it is not vermere. Okay,
the thing to do is create an original painting and
add a lot of vermir touches so that people go, oh,
I didn't know Vermir did a this. Yeah, and there's
no real analog to compare it to.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, it's not a copy of a Vermir. It's like
a new type of Vermire.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
And he invents this new period of Vermir's paintings in
which he did a bunch of religious paintings because that's
like kind of his whole deal. And this theory that
Vermir had had a biblical phase had also sort of
been proffered by this guy, Dirk Hannema, who is the
(28:38):
director of a museum in Rotterdam. So he's also a
little bit like planting seeds that he knows Dirk wants
to harvest.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
So he's he's creating a lie that people are ready
to believe.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yes, and that like you know, I guess that could
be true according to this one sort of expert guy.
It's also just funny because like now, in hindsight, they
don't look anything like Vermire's.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
In nineteen thirty seven, he completes this painting, The Supper
at Emmaeus, which shows Jesus and some of his disciples
eating bread after the resurrection and through intermediaries.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
That's a cute scene. Yeah, it's like, hey, guys, I'm back.
You want to like hang out, grab lunch.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
It's he was like wandering through I think the desert
and he meets his old disciples and at first they
don't recognize him, and then they're like, wait a minute,
didn't we bury you a few days ago? And he's like,
it's me.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
I'm back. Good, grab a bite, I'm starving.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, And through intermediaries, he calls up Abraham rediis the
Pope of Vermires, and they show him the painting and
they're like, well, this says a Vermire signature on it.
What do you think And he's like, I found a
new Vermire.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Yes, oh, because it's another it's a lie people want
to believe because it would like make this guy's career.
He found a new Vermire.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
He found a new Vermire. And not only did he
find a new from here, it's the best for beer
in the world. Ah.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
He loves it.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
He's like, this is his masterpiece. This is fuck girl
with a pearl earring, fuck that milkmaid. Yeah, this is
the best Vermire in the whole world. And they and
he calls up like another expert to be like, look
at this romire I found and the other expert is like,
that is fake. Yeah, it looks so fake, and Abraham
Brettis is like no, no, no, no no, and he
(30:21):
publishes a thing in like you know, the most whatever
August Journal of the Day being like new Vermere got
new Vermere found it some you know old farming family
happened to have it in their attic. Don't worry about
it now Mere And uh, the Dirk Hanna, the director
of the museum that I mentioned, he buys it for
(30:42):
many millions of pounds because tale's old as time. His
museum didn't have ver here.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I want to have a Vermire, and he.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Wanted to compete with all the other museums that had
all the Dutch masters still the god of Vermire. And
now Van Migrant has kind of kind of got it
made because he has his process and he doesn't even
really need to make more vermiersh paintings. He just needs
to make more paintings that look like supparadimais because now
he's established that that's a Vermire.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
That's the style. And now have you matched the style?
You've done it right?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Like now he's established that, like, oh, Vermire had this
here too, four unknown period where he painted like this,
and he painted these types of things. So he paints
like just another picture of Jesus, more Bible scenes and
he and they get kind of like worse and worse.
But people just keep believing it because it's like, oh, yeah,
like I guess it's all from that period where Vermir
painted like this.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
And it also is like it's like one hundred percent
true that this is a painting by the guy who
painted stuff for you. One hundred percent got nailed it.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, Like it's just that that guy's not named Vermir,
he's named van Negren. Yeah. Yeah, to his credit, I guess,
like he is quite attentive to detail. He uses the
exact materials that Vermiir used, He uses the exact brushes
that Vermiir used. He paints on top of canvases from
(32:04):
Vermier's time. Like it is a good forgery.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
It's not a lazy forge it.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
It's not a lazy forgery. You know, we talk on
this podcast like were people in the past dumb, Like nope,
Like this is a very he's a very skilled forger.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
What were they going to do? Google it?
Speaker 2 (32:20):
No? No, And this is uh, this is not something
that they could do. A Dutch museum buys his Washing
of the Feet painting using sixty percent of their budget.
Oh no, that they have because they want to keep
it in the country and keep the Germans from getting it.
And it's so ugly. And he just really has exposed
(32:41):
the art world. But like he just hasn't said that
he exposed them.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, he's taking advantage.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
So okay, I mean it's like a bummer, but like
I kind of want to pause here to talk about like,
at this point, the Nazis have occupied the Netherlands. I
don't know if he was seeking out buyers once the
word is out there. I don't know if he could
control who bought his paintings. Yeah, I don't know if
(33:10):
he could have refused to sell them to Nazis, and
I don't think he would have.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
And it's also it's so just to be clear, he
didn't like do this for it. He wasn't just like
a guy who's like, I'm gonna trick Nazis.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
No, he was one to hear it.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Who was selling to whoever was buying.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
He was selling to whoever was buying. I mean, human
life is always more important than a painting, so like
I would never expect anyone to stick their neck out
really in any way over issues of painting. Yeah, like
when you hear Nazi collaborator, You're like, oh, fuck that guy.
And then when you hear like painting seller, I'm like,
(33:51):
I don't know about that. And then if it were
a real vermire, then that's sort of in a gray
area because it is like a cultural artifact. But if
it is just a forgery, like.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
And he it's not like he thought it was a vermier.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah, like let whoever wants to buy it buy it,
like he you know.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
You know what if I I understand where it's like
if I was making forgeries and someone I freaking hated
was like, I'll pay you millions of dollars for this
worthless garbage, I'd be like great. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
But it's also I mean, and we got into this
in like the Salvatory MOUNDI episode where like the prince
who has like overseen executions bought that painting at auction though,
and you can't control who enters an auction. Like once
you're in bed with skive people, you're in bed with
skive people. Yeah, like period, period, and like it doesn't
get much skivier than the Nazis. On the record, on
(34:41):
the record, yeah, Liz Logan anti Nazi. He divorces his
second wife.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Oh so' already on a second one.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Already on his second wife, but only so that if
he's caught and his money is taken away, that they
won't get most of his money because he gives her
all his money. Okay, all right, So he over the
course of his career has a mass or spent. I
don't know how much he like has in the bank,
but basically he earns thirty million dollars wow, in like
(35:07):
today's money. So he really lived the high life while
people were starving. He could have quit at any point.
He didn't need to keep doing that.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Well, he probably could have. He kept selling forgery's to Nazis,
but like used the money to help people, which I
imagine he did not do.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yeah, and he was really living the high life.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
So nineteen forty five, knock at the door, Van Meegren
is arrested. Shortly after he's arrested, while the Allies are
cleaning out one of Hitler's libraries, they find a book
of Van Meegren's drawings that Van Meegren had sent to
Hitler in nineteen forty two of.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Quote unquote Vermire drawings or Van Meegren drawings Van.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Megran drawings, and had handwritten a dedication that began to
my beloved fereor Oh. The book included poems that were
written by member of the SS, who Van Miegrin had
met on at least one occasion. M And Van Miegrin's like, okay,
that's my signature. But somebody else wrote the dedication and
they're like, well, this is your exact handwriting. Although you know,
(36:12):
when we're talking forgers, I guess I know what I
can do a Bundyboter's handwriters.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, But also it sounds like
he this guy was willing to make Nazis happy if
it means they would pay him millions of dollars.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
To me, he's really like the characters in the Sound
of Music who are just willing to go along to
get along. He's the baron, the baroness and her friend,
her gay best friend. Yes, yeah, And it's like, you know,
at some point you gotta make a stand. Do I
know if he had hate in his heart? I don't know,
(36:45):
But like there's pictures of him standing next to SS officers,
Like that's so horrible.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
It's so interesting, and I feel like there needs to
be a play about this guy, if there isn't already,
because it is so easy to just make him a
hero where it's he's a guy who duped Nazis. Isn't
that funny? And it is funn it is funny, and
like you do want that just to be a hero.
But you're like, and he was just a bad guy.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah, it's like why were you in bed with Nazis
in the first place. I sort of felt like if
he had real vermrrors.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
He would have sold those to Nazis. Right.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
It's one of those things where it's like, hey, guess what.
I guess what I stole when I was at this
Nazis house. And it's like, Dana, why were you at
the Nazis house? Like it's one of those things where
you hear a great story and then you're like, wait
a minute. You know, like another sort of point of
interest I guess is the way he laundered all his
money is by buying houses. How many of those houses
(37:39):
in Amsterdam were empty because a tenth of Amsterdam was
Jewish and had recently been shipped out of Amsterdam. I
don't know. Yeah, did he mean to do that or
was just that the real estate that was available.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Probably, I don't know both.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, So we're in nineteen forty five. Hermann Gering is
on trial in Nuremberg along with the rest of us,
the top Nazi officials. It's unclear if he ever found
out his vermiir was a fake.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
I hope he did.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I hope he did too, And some sources have written
that he did, and then other sources are like, yeah,
we'd like to think that, but there's no evidence that he.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Did plastic lie. We all want to believe. You all
want to find out someone him to be like, well,
at least I got to look and hold of vermire
and someone's like it was a fake.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Yeah. He was convicted of many things, including crimes against humanity. Yes,
and he was sentenced to be hanged. But the night
before he was supposed to that was supposed to happen,
he committed suicide with the cyanide pill. Van Meegren's trial,
which is not in Durremberg, it's in Amsterdam because I
don't think he broke international law. I think it was
just Dutch law. It doesn't actually happen until nineteen forty seven.
(38:43):
And I'm just speculating here, but I think he benefited
from going after like the big guys. Yeah, yeah, because
if it is nineteen forty five, the war has just ended,
and you hear guy got money from Nazi, You're like, hang, yeah,
(39:03):
And then you watch the Nuremberg Trial and you hear
about the most horrific things in the world.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
And the torture and manipulation and murder and like truly
crimes against humans, really the worst.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Things that humans have ever done to each other. And
then you see this guy who, to be clear, as
far as we know, never held a gun. Yeah, was
never enlisted as a member of the Nazi party, never
visited a camp, never wore a Nazi uniform, like, never
did any of those things.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Just he was looking out for number one.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
And kind of the worst piece of evidence against him
is that he sent a guy a book five years prior. Yeah,
I don't think there's that much juice to be like
get him.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
You're like, that's it's funny because in a certain light,
that light you tell me, You're like, well, that's just
a selfish guy who was looking out for number one.
And then also, like you said, he was like became
a beloved figure in the Netherlands because it's like, you
can be a folk hero because you're actually he tricked
the Nazis.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
It's just like, don't we have bigger fish to fry
than the art forger who sent Hitler a book?
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Like, are you serious? Do you remember what we saw
at Nuremberg? Like, shouldn't we be going to Argentina and
hunting down the Gestapo captains who got away? I don't
give Like I think a lot of people were like,
who gives a shit what the art forger did? No,
I don't care.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Yeah, you're like, and he forged them. They weren't real
ver me whatever man.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
So I do think like that's a little bit the
vibe that he walks into when he starts weaving his
tail of being a folk hero.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
And the people of the Netherlands at this point are like, well,
this could kind of be interpreted one of two ways.
Either one of our guys because he is Dutch. Yeah,
Either one of our guys has been duping people about
one of our favorite guys, Vermir and also collaborating with
one of the worst guys gurring or one of our
(41:10):
guys is super smart and got one over on one
of the really awful guys.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Yeah. It's a fun story because it makes the Nazis
look dumb and.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Gullible, and it makes the Dutch look awesome.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, smart, and they're tricksters. Yeah great, be on the
team of the fun trickster and not the the you know,
horrible Nazi collaborator.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah. So ultimately they're like, you know, Han was on
whatever side was good for Han. The painting in the
court was really a publicity stunt. They covered up the
fact that he was a Nazi sympathizer. That detail was
in the paper, but it never really came before the court.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
It kind of sorry to interrupret it as like multiple
layers of hoaxes, because it's a lot of people wanting
to frame information in the way that they want they
want to believe the story that they want to believe,
and that happens I feel like like six different times
in this story.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
And the last big hoax is kind of been migrant's reputation.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
You might even say it was forged. The judge apparently
was very swayed by all the psychiatrists who said that
he was like super bummed out by the bad reviews
that his previous art show had gotten, and so gave
him a lesser sentence because of that.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
I also want to say, if anyone ever gives me
bad reviews, I want permission to do crimes.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
But not with Nazis.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
No, no, never with Nazis, but just crimes in general. Sure,
sure if I'm bummed out, so they're.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
You know, they're latching onto like whatever rationale besides fascism
that they can. He was a con man.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
He was a con man.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
He was a con man. Should he have gotten more
time in prison? I have absolutely no idea. He died
pretty much immediately, so, like whatever. He was fifty eight
and he got all that fame that he wanted. He's
known as the most successful forger of all time.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
And he was a He was able not only to
forge Vermire's but forge a reputation for himself as a
folk hero.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Exactly his greatest forgery, Dana, we can't play who would
cast this in a movie? Because there already was a
movie about that.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
There was because I'm like, this would be a good movie,
and also I feel it would be a good play.
What was the movie?
Speaker 2 (43:16):
It's called The Last Vermire came out in twenty twenty one.
Guy Pierce plays Van Niegren.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Was it good?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
I watched the trailer, but I didn't want to watch
the movie because I didn't want to accidentally ingest fiction. Yes,
like I didn't want to have that color my understanding.
I do believe that this whole episode like improved art
history's accuracy, Like you can't really ask someone's opinion, Like
(43:46):
just asking an expert's opinion is no longer enough to
verify that a certain painter did a certain painting. Yeah,
but I there was a really interesting BBC documentary about
this that I watched that made a point that I
want to end on great or we can keep talking,
but I want to include, which is that at this
time there was another forger working in Amsterdam named Alice Cohne.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Let's but keep going.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Do you know who she is?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
No? But I hear a Jewish name.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yes. So she deserves all of the admiration and full
hero status that Van Meegren got because she used her
forger skills to make fake identity cards for Jews that
didn't identify them as Jews so that they weren't targeted
or shipped out or sent to work camps. And she
(44:38):
saved hundreds of lives and her entire family was killed
by the Nazis, but she survived the war and she
got married and had kids. Dana has goose both and
she's showing me and she lived to the year two thousand.
So Alice Cohne is the hero. Van Meegren had a
very funny story that you can totally think is funny.
(44:58):
But Alice Cone is the hero this episode, so look
her up if you're looking for a hero. Listeners, Oh,
I love that because she could She could forge things too.
She could forge signatures and stamps and other sort of
official government documents.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
Lizzie. That's such a good note to end on. Thank
you documentary, and thank you Lizzie.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Please find us online on Instagram, Hoax the Pod. Email
us if you have anything to say Hoax Thepodcast at
gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah, give us a rating, a review, subscription, it really helps,
and share it with a friend you think would be interested.
We love telling the stories and we really want to
keep going.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
If you have ideas for merch for us, send that
to the email.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
I'm gonna be doing merch.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
I don't know so of the first I've heard of it,
I haven't. I haven't thought of it. If someone has
a good idea for merch, send it or requests send
it to Instagram or the email. Yeah, thank you so
much for listening. We have a blast doing this.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Please hoax responsibly. Bye. Hoax is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Our hosts are Danas Schwortz and Lizzie Logan. Our executive
producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young, with supervising producer
(46:15):
Rima L. Kali and producers Nomes Griffin and Jesse Funk.
Our theme music was composed by Laine Montgomery. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.
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