August 1, 2026 • 24 mins
Are you running into men who only want to get physical?
Kelly Bensimon is opening up to psychologist Dr. Hillary Goldsher about the men she attracts and why she tends to end relationships quickly.
Dr. Hillary has the perfect messaging to convey what you DO and DON’T want in a relationship without confusion.
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hey I do for two it's your celebrity mentor Kelly
ben smone And today I'm going to basically open up
and have my own therapy session on air.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Scary.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Yes, hopefully I can gain something out of this for
all of us. Today. I'm joined today by my great friend,
doctor Hillary Goldher.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
She's a psychologist who does.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Extensive work in the area of relationships, helping couples as
well as individuals in all areas of life before marriage,
during marriage, separated divorce, and high conflict divorce. Welcome, doctor
Hillary Hiver. Oh, hi, Hi, So I have some questions
(00:59):
for you.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I'm here for it.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I want to give you a little background of like
where I you know, how I got to where I
am today. So I got divorced in two thousand and
seven and mediator I took care of everything, got him
a new girlfriend, locked him up, just took everything, like
(01:24):
in control so my kids.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Would be happy, he'd be happy.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
And when on a television show, thought that I was
going to be, you know, feeling free and you know,
able to like nowdate people who you know, really cared
about me and wanted to be with me, And that
didn't work out because it was just like all of
these like entertainment kind of poser kind of people, which
(01:50):
was super disappointing. And then, you know, day try to
date some people that were on entertainment because I was like, Okay,
he's entertainment, I'm entertainment. Let's figure this out. That did
not work out, and then retired from the show and started,
you know, working on my own writing books and working
(02:11):
with in the jewelry and partnership space with collaborations, which
was so much fun, but I was laser focused on
making money, providing for my kids and making sure they
were safe cut too.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I am now still single.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I was supposed to get married two years ago, found
out that the guy wasn't going to sign my prenup,
and just really found out that he wasn't who he
said he was.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
And now I'm.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
You know, out there dating. I met a really really
nice guy last year. We had a you know, such
a great relationship, and then I was going to go
on a show, and I just was afraid that he wasn't.
I didn't know what he wanted to do, but it
didn't seem like he was making definitive moves forward. I mean,
(03:03):
we were together, we were having a great time. We
were having fun, the kids are having a great time.
Everyone is having a great time. But that's not a relationship.
That's a friend and a fun friend, whatever you want.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
To call them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
And then now I'm back on television. This is my
second season of a new show, and I'm still single.
But the thing that's different this time around is now
I'm on HRT. So I'm single and I'm wildly ready
(03:37):
to meet someone.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Well, I mean, first of all, I have a couple questions,
but I'll just say this. I just want to remind
you and listeners that have similar stories around divorce that
divorce is really traumatic, and divorce with children, it's really
really traumatic, and there are a lot even in the
(04:02):
best of circumstances, And I don't know what yours were,
but they don't sound like they qualify for the best
of circumstances. But even under the best of circumstances, it's
really really hard and it takes a while for the mind, body,
spirit to recover. And I think it has an impact
that people don't even realize until they realize it is
(04:24):
a real paradigm shift and a version of an existential crisis,
especially with kids and so you doing a version of
relationally reeling posted divorce for this period of time is
not that surprising. I don't mean that related to you specifically,
I just mean in general, it's a lot to recover from.
(04:44):
And so I just think having a version of like
empathy and understanding that you're going to have some trauma
responses and emotional hangover from your experience that's going to
impact how you move through relationships for this season. I'm
sure you're list to not to have that always be
the case, but I just kind of want to honor
that truth because I think it's sacred and not something
(05:06):
to be suppressed or rushed through. I think said that,
I am curious from your perspective. You know, the only
thing you and I have at this moment besides like
twenty thirty minutes, is also the things that you have
control over that you know about how you move through relationships,
And I'm just curious from your perspective what you think
(05:29):
impacts how you show up in a relationship and what
are the arenas that you want to look at and
strengthen or shift.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for acknowledging
the trauma that I went through. I think when people
hear me talk about they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, she's fine. No,
I didn't say it was fine. I said I took
care of it. You weren't listening to me. I didn't
have the luxury.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
To not be fine.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
I two children, and my husband was a lot older
than I was, and I just needed to make sure
that my kids were in the best possible life. Ever,
that's my responsibility, but doesn't mean that I didn't suffer.
Doesn't mean that I wasn't feeling like absolutely, doesn't mean
that I wasn't feeling wildly insecure. That doesn't mean any
(06:15):
of that. So thank you for acknowledging that. Honestly, you
can cry because I'm like no one ever everyone's like, oh, yeah, yeah,
it's fine, she's fine. Like no, No, Just because I handle
things doesn't mean I don't feel.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Yes, and there's something, Yeah, there's something particularly insidious someone
like you who's entirely capable, and so it can appear
as if it's quote fine, and of course in many
ways it's completely fine because it had to be, and
you have those internal resources and can curate the external
ones needed. But the toll is silent and insidious to
(06:48):
use my word again, And I think it's really important
to keep that in mind about incredible, courageous women who
are post divorced and doing all those things, to keep
in mind that empathy and compassion and how vulnerable and
scary it actually feels.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I mean, also, I am a writer, and you know
I worked with many many magazines. I have written many books,
and it's my job to create narratives and especially in
that situation, with my job to create narratives that kept
my ex husband and my children both safe. So that's
my job. That's I know, that's my job, and I
know how to do it well. But doesn't mean again,
(07:26):
doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. Like you know, when things
cut with me, they get really really deep.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I'm a Taurus.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
I love my friends, my family, I have a twin brother,
I have great great I had great parents. I'm very,
very fortunate to have love in my life.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
But I'm you.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Know, I have I have a lot of fear and
I have a lot of hurt.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I have a lot of hurt.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for being so open and vulnerable
about that. Because you're saying it, maybe maybe other women
can feel like they can say it to them selves
or to save others or both. You know thisms to
be true. I mean one can be scared and heard
and vulnerable and also be I live through your life
in a really strong, you know way. It two things
(08:13):
can be true at the same time. But I would
be curious, like, from your perspective, what are thematically? What
shows up in your relationships you know that you want
to think about or work on.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Or I think it's the same kind of just like
you nailed it, like this curation. I think I'm constantly
curating narratives for people.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
If they say, oh.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I had a bad ex wife, I'm like, oh, you know,
these are the kind of things that you can work on.
We can talk about it together. I'm here to you know,
talk here, listen to you.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
But I don't want to do that. I don't want to.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Be curating people's narratives like this is my life, this
is I'm the person. I'm the main character energy here,
not them, And I want I mean I got divorced
with the intention of finding someone and finding more than
finding love, but finding someone who was going to listen
to me and be genuinely curious about me. I mean
(09:11):
this's going to sound very strange, but I kind of
thought about this the other day that there's the Kelly
Bensimone personality that people see and they think, and then
there's the Kelly Klaurin from Rockford, Illinois, and that's who
they're dating. They're not dating Kelly Bensimone writer whatever it is,
you know, all those different slashes and hypheness whatever you
want to call them, they're dating me.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
And it really.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
You know, it's interesting because it's like everyone's like, oh,
you're an attachment kind of style, Like, oh no, no, no,
I'm gonna avoidant. I tie a boat on you to
push you away. I'm not attaching to you unless we're
I really feel like I can actually trust you, which
is very very hard for me. What are your thoughts
(09:58):
on that? Do you think I'm an attachment.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Well, you know, I don't like to put such heavy labels.
It sounds like, you know, you've cultivated a coping strategy
that keeps your vulnerability somewhat at bay, but it's not attractable.
And I feel like when people talk about attachment styles,
it makes it feel intractable and impossible to like address
(10:25):
and take on as if it can't be shifted or
thought about it in a different way. I mean, what
you said at the beginning is so insightful and profound
and meaningful, meaning that your tendency to help people create narratives,
which I'm translating into you taking care of people, right,
you helping people make meaning of their own lives and
(10:48):
you know whatever, we want to call it, saving them,
rescuing them, being of counsel to them. And that does
a number of things. I mean, first of all, it's
lovely in a beautiful skill of yours. I don't I'm
not saying that majorata of I mean it, And I
imagine it's a comfort zone of yours that you're really
good at it, and so you might immediately go there
because it feels like a position of strength for you.
(11:10):
It feels like something you do well, and it's compelling.
But too much of it without like emotional diversification, means
that there's automatically a power imbalance or some kind of imbalance,
namely that you're the one, as you said, putting a
bow on people's stories, and your vulnerability doesn't have a
(11:31):
way in and I imagine part of you does that
purposely right to protect yourself. And I imagine part of
you does that habitually because you're used to it.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Well, I mean, as a writer, your job is to
synthesize information.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
So that's what I do.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Is I hear what a person is saying, I synthesize it,
I process it, and then I say, well, here's my
takeaway for you.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yes, yeah, that's not what I want to do my on.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
A Tuesday at eight o'clock at night. I don't want
to be listening to someone and synthesizing for them and
promising for them.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Like I do that all day long.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I don't need to do it at home, so I
need to So to your point, like, that isn't what.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I want to do. I don't. I don't.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
I'm not a savior. I'm not someone that saves you.
I'm someone that kind of like, listen, I listen to men.
So men really are attracted to me, which is very
nice and very you know, obviously a beautiful thing. But
I also have a twin brother, so I'm not intimidated.
So when I talk to men, I'm not like, oh
my god, he talked to me and he called me.
(12:34):
I'm like, oh he called me.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
That was nice.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Made a nice time. Like I don't have those those
kind of male relationships because I don't understand the male brand.
But I'm a twin, like I'm just I have a
I just feel very comfortable and confident around men, which
is also complicated. I'm complicated, Hillary, I'm complicated.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Well, here's a challenge, is that maybe you will feel
potentially less comfortable in quotes around man or a man
if you don't immediately embody the role of synthesizer. Right.
And when I say not comfortable, I mean just more vulnerable,
more present, more open, you know. For I often say
(13:20):
this to clients and it sounds so obvious, but it
feels poignant. It's like, for things to be different, you
have to do something differently.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
You have to.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
You can have all the insight in the world from
the best therapist, you know, the most amazing friends, but
if you don't do something behaviorally that is different, you're
going to have the same result. You really have to
pair insight with different behavior to have something feel different.
And so, you know, showing up and deliberately preventing yourself
(13:51):
from doing that, maybe you can do it a little.
But guiding yourself to sit in the silence and the
awkwardness and the discomfort, you know, and might compel him
whoever he is, to ask a question or to get
more curious about you rather than filling the space with
what you know.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I just I went on a date this past couple
of days and the guy was just kind of like,
how long you've been single? And he's He's like, honestly, like,
I really don't care. I just if you want to
talk about it, you can. I was like, you know,
it's not that I care about how long that I've
been single. I just want you to know that it's
not like I'm waiting around to be in a relationships relationship.
(14:42):
I just want to enjoy myself.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Like I'm at that.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Stage of my life in my career where I am
in all the businesses that I run, I'm just very
comfortable and I'm just looking for just someone to like.
I had such a nice time at dinner with him,
and I just like, I'm just looking to enjoy my life.
And he literally his face like just kind of melted.
(15:07):
Instead of him being like, she wants to get married
tomorrow and.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
She wants to do these things and she needs this,
and she dos.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
That he was just like he was like, I'm so
happy to meet you. And I was like, oh my god,
Like I approached this in a different way, and I
didn't even know that I was.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, I just felt different.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
That's really interesting. Yeah, and you were able to follow
that energy and speak and embody a truth that was compelling.
You know, the more alignment we're in, the more compelling
it is. I think.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
I also was just in a major car accident, a
really serious car accident, two weeks ago, and.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I am just I just was like I.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Woke up one morning and I'm like, what am I doing.
My twin brothers like Kelly, He's like, one second more,
you would have been dead. He's like, do you realize,
like how lucky you are? And I know that sounds,
you know, very cliche. I had this moment, this cathartic moment.
I changed, I would changed. I just feel differently about
(16:11):
and I'm approaching things in a different way because I'm
grateful for where I am, genuinely.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
One of one of the elements to bring into your
pursuit relationally is is vulnerability around wanting to be known. Right.
You don't want to be the only curator of stories.
You want that to be mutual you want someone to
know you, which you should want someone to know you
(16:40):
mutually for that reciprocity to occur, and even going in
with that intention of wanting to be known, you know,
I mean, you might even put words to that that
like along the lines of like, hey, I just want
to be in good company with someone and enjoy space,
like you could add I want to be I want
to know someone. I want to be known, you know,
(17:01):
as part of like what you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Actually love that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I love that you just want to be known, and
I love it. And I mean I don't have those educated,
articulate words, but I did say something a little bit
along the lines, which again like gave him that opportunity
to just relax and not be afraid.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yes, and also keeps you accountable from from embodying that
same role over and over again of being the one
to know the other.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
I want to your advice about dating, you know, I went,
I'm back on Hinge and Ryan, I'm like, Okay, I'm going.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
To actually like do you want to go on date?
Let's do Let's go on a date.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
But like all my friends are like, oh, he's asking
me specific questions I'm like, I'm not asking anyone anything anymore.
I am so tired of asking them questions. That's boring me.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Like I'm just like.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
I just want to have you, get you for two
hours and people present who exactly who they are. They
tell you I don't need to ask the questions. They
are ready to tell you, and they tell you exactly
what you're like, Hey, I'm floating, they're floating. Hey, you know,
Max wife was really really mean to me, and I'm
looking for someone that's not mean to me. They're looking
(18:24):
they're telling you or me and or me what the
story is. And I was just like I wented a
couple of days. These guys seemed really really nice. They're
all very educated, nice jobs everything, and I just was like,
I can't do this.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I just can't do this. I was like, it's not
going to go forward. I just can't.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
I can't be interviewed every single time and go on
a date and I can't have you like tap dancing
around me, like you know, let's have a glass of wine. Great,
I'll meet you for half an hour. Like I need
you to just be like available and wanted to do
things and just like seeing how things go versus creating
(19:02):
some kind of like one, two, three, let's get to
the third. Yeah, so how do I how do I
tell these men stop triving to the third third date
so we can have sex?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Ah?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
That was long winned.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Yeah, no, but I needed the background actually, you know,
kind of aligning with what we were just saying about
the notion of wanting to be known. I mean, I
think you could directly say that, you know that, Like,
I'm I'm a I'm in a phase. I'm in a
season where I want to be like slow, deliberate, have
like companionship. I want to know someone. I want to
be known, and I want to like slow roll the
(19:41):
other stuff I just do. And that might be resonant
for you. It might not be like you can you
let me know?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
But a lot of the guys are like they're saying
to me, like, if you don't have sex with someone,
you don't know how you feel about them. I'm like, well,
first of all, you're not going to sex with me. Like,
I'm just not like that anyway. I'm I mean, I'm
I'm i am not on no one else's time of
my own. If I feel like having sex with you,
we will have sex. If I do not have feel
like having sex, if we might not have sex for
a month, yes, that's no harm, no foul like, Yes,
(20:11):
that's just who I am. If you cannot wait for
the month, then you're not going to be dating me.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
I think you have the answer already inside of you.
I mean, I just to kind of clarify it for
you and for other women and women listening that any
narrative that sex must happen in a particular time frame
for your potential male partner, is there a narrative, and
(20:39):
it doesn't make it bad or wrong, but it is theirs,
and you don't have to adopt it. Obviously, pressure is
a whole other thing. But if someone is still respectfully
or playfully or something you know, putting forth this narrative,
you can listen to it and respect it, but clearly
stay like it just doesn't rest with me. For me,
(21:01):
I like to have it unfold slowly, and for me,
sex comes on the back of more time and more
emotional connection, and it doesn't make you wrong in me right,
But that is who I am. And I think there's
some real empowerment in being able to look up person
in the eye and say this is who I am
and feel really good about it rather than feeling like
you're compromising an opportunity. It might sound cliche, but if
(21:25):
that isn't resonant with someone that can't be your person,
it's a pretty low bar ask, right.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
And I feel like a lot of men think that
if they do try to get me to have sex,
then they're going to lock me in or I'm a
locker in with sex because I'm having sex with her
and she can only have sex with me and because
she doesn't want, you know, and I'm just like what
is going on? Like yeah, I'm like, wait, what I would?
Speaker 3 (21:51):
I would be even more direct than you have been,
you know that, Like in case it's confusing, like this
is this is my state of the union on sex, right?
You know that it's it's on the back of time
and companionship and emotional connection and that you know, if
that's not resonant, totally cool, like, but just not going
to be an alignment for me.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Okay. Final thoughts for women that are like me that
I don't know what to ask men on a date, Like,
give me like two questions I should ask men on
my first date.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Gosh, I mean to be honest. I look, if there
are questions that come up that feel organic, ask them,
you know, sort of all the typical questions like like
what got you here? Like what season are you in?
Relationship wise? You know, you know, what's what's resonant for
(22:45):
you in your life right now? Like what are the
things that make you you? You know kind of thing
I think are fun, playful, like low pressure things. But
also I don't think to your earlier point that one
has to feel armed with a bunch of really compelling,
unique questions. You know, first meetings, first dates are all
(23:05):
fraught with those key parts you know of like awkwardness
and weirdness and some prescriptedness. And I think that's okay,
you know, even acknowledging that can sort of be like yep,
I might ask you a bunch of questions that are
standard fair for this first date, but doesn't make me
less interested here I go. You know, you can narrate
the process of awkwardness and strangeness. And I think there's
(23:29):
anything particularly unique or special that one has to force
themselves to bring, but rather to sort of acknowledge that, like,
you know, I know this could be weird, but it
doesn't make me less interested in like what your deal is, like,
what your state of the union is, what do you
like to do day to day? Like who are you?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
You know?
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Kind of thing. I think it's completely fine to narrate
the awkwardness of it rather than pretend that it doesn't
have that prescribed quality.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Oh my god, thank you so much. I love the
idea of being known, and I love the idea of
taking space. I love those two takeaways, doctor Hillary.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Thank you. I'm so happy to see you, by the way.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Oh god, often, Oh my god, you're fantastic, and you're
just so articulate, and you're just very very very easy
to talk to. Appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
It's so good to see you, Kelly.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And thank you for acknowledging my fear. And I really
that means a lot. That really means a lot to
thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, all right, all right, all right?
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Are you like me and trying to navigate this crazy
world of dating? Do you have questions or need advice?
Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All
the info are in the show notes and follow us
on socials. I do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where
falling in love is the main objective.
Hey I do for two it's your celebrity mentor Kelly
ben smone And today I'm going to basically open up
and have my own therapy session on air.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Scary.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Yes, hopefully I can gain something out of this for
all of us. Today. I'm joined today by my great friend,
doctor Hillary Goldher.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
She's a psychologist who does.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Extensive work in the area of relationships, helping couples as
well as individuals in all areas of life before marriage,
during marriage, separated divorce, and high conflict divorce. Welcome, doctor
Hillary Hiver. Oh, hi, Hi, So I have some questions
(00:59):
for you.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I'm here for it.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I want to give you a little background of like
where I you know, how I got to where I
am today. So I got divorced in two thousand and
seven and mediator I took care of everything, got him
a new girlfriend, locked him up, just took everything, like
(01:24):
in control so my kids.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Would be happy, he'd be happy.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
And when on a television show, thought that I was
going to be, you know, feeling free and you know,
able to like nowdate people who you know, really cared
about me and wanted to be with me, And that
didn't work out because it was just like all of
these like entertainment kind of poser kind of people, which
(01:50):
was super disappointing. And then, you know, day try to
date some people that were on entertainment because I was like, Okay,
he's entertainment, I'm entertainment. Let's figure this out. That did
not work out, and then retired from the show and started,
you know, working on my own writing books and working
(02:11):
with in the jewelry and partnership space with collaborations, which
was so much fun, but I was laser focused on
making money, providing for my kids and making sure they
were safe cut too.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I am now still single.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I was supposed to get married two years ago, found
out that the guy wasn't going to sign my prenup,
and just really found out that he wasn't who he
said he was.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
And now I'm.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
You know, out there dating. I met a really really
nice guy last year. We had a you know, such
a great relationship, and then I was going to go
on a show, and I just was afraid that he wasn't.
I didn't know what he wanted to do, but it
didn't seem like he was making definitive moves forward. I mean,
(03:03):
we were together, we were having a great time. We
were having fun, the kids are having a great time.
Everyone is having a great time. But that's not a relationship.
That's a friend and a fun friend, whatever you want.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
To call them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
And then now I'm back on television. This is my
second season of a new show, and I'm still single.
But the thing that's different this time around is now
I'm on HRT. So I'm single and I'm wildly ready
(03:37):
to meet someone.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Well, I mean, first of all, I have a couple questions,
but I'll just say this. I just want to remind
you and listeners that have similar stories around divorce that
divorce is really traumatic, and divorce with children, it's really
really traumatic, and there are a lot even in the
(04:02):
best of circumstances, And I don't know what yours were,
but they don't sound like they qualify for the best
of circumstances. But even under the best of circumstances, it's
really really hard and it takes a while for the mind, body,
spirit to recover. And I think it has an impact
that people don't even realize until they realize it is
(04:24):
a real paradigm shift and a version of an existential crisis,
especially with kids and so you doing a version of
relationally reeling posted divorce for this period of time is
not that surprising. I don't mean that related to you specifically,
I just mean in general, it's a lot to recover from.
(04:44):
And so I just think having a version of like
empathy and understanding that you're going to have some trauma
responses and emotional hangover from your experience that's going to
impact how you move through relationships for this season. I'm
sure you're list to not to have that always be
the case, but I just kind of want to honor
that truth because I think it's sacred and not something
(05:06):
to be suppressed or rushed through. I think said that,
I am curious from your perspective. You know, the only
thing you and I have at this moment besides like
twenty thirty minutes, is also the things that you have
control over that you know about how you move through relationships,
And I'm just curious from your perspective what you think
(05:29):
impacts how you show up in a relationship and what
are the arenas that you want to look at and
strengthen or shift.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for acknowledging
the trauma that I went through. I think when people
hear me talk about they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, she's fine. No,
I didn't say it was fine. I said I took
care of it. You weren't listening to me. I didn't
have the luxury.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
To not be fine.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
I two children, and my husband was a lot older
than I was, and I just needed to make sure
that my kids were in the best possible life. Ever,
that's my responsibility, but doesn't mean that I didn't suffer.
Doesn't mean that I wasn't feeling like absolutely, doesn't mean
that I wasn't feeling wildly insecure. That doesn't mean any
(06:15):
of that. So thank you for acknowledging that. Honestly, you
can cry because I'm like no one ever everyone's like, oh, yeah, yeah,
it's fine, she's fine. Like no, No, Just because I handle
things doesn't mean I don't feel.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Yes, and there's something, Yeah, there's something particularly insidious someone
like you who's entirely capable, and so it can appear
as if it's quote fine, and of course in many
ways it's completely fine because it had to be, and
you have those internal resources and can curate the external
ones needed. But the toll is silent and insidious to
(06:48):
use my word again, And I think it's really important
to keep that in mind about incredible, courageous women who
are post divorced and doing all those things, to keep
in mind that empathy and compassion and how vulnerable and
scary it actually feels.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I mean, also, I am a writer, and you know
I worked with many many magazines. I have written many books,
and it's my job to create narratives and especially in
that situation, with my job to create narratives that kept
my ex husband and my children both safe. So that's
my job. That's I know, that's my job, and I
know how to do it well. But doesn't mean again,
(07:26):
doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. Like you know, when things
cut with me, they get really really deep.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I'm a Taurus.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
I love my friends, my family, I have a twin brother,
I have great great I had great parents. I'm very,
very fortunate to have love in my life.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
But I'm you.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Know, I have I have a lot of fear and
I have a lot of hurt.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I have a lot of hurt.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for being so open and vulnerable
about that. Because you're saying it, maybe maybe other women
can feel like they can say it to them selves
or to save others or both. You know thisms to
be true. I mean one can be scared and heard
and vulnerable and also be I live through your life
in a really strong, you know way. It two things
(08:13):
can be true at the same time. But I would
be curious, like, from your perspective, what are thematically? What
shows up in your relationships you know that you want
to think about or work on.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Or I think it's the same kind of just like
you nailed it, like this curation. I think I'm constantly
curating narratives for people.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
If they say, oh.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I had a bad ex wife, I'm like, oh, you know,
these are the kind of things that you can work on.
We can talk about it together. I'm here to you know,
talk here, listen to you.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
But I don't want to do that. I don't want to.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Be curating people's narratives like this is my life, this
is I'm the person. I'm the main character energy here,
not them, And I want I mean I got divorced
with the intention of finding someone and finding more than
finding love, but finding someone who was going to listen
to me and be genuinely curious about me. I mean
(09:11):
this's going to sound very strange, but I kind of
thought about this the other day that there's the Kelly
Bensimone personality that people see and they think, and then
there's the Kelly Klaurin from Rockford, Illinois, and that's who
they're dating. They're not dating Kelly Bensimone writer whatever it is,
you know, all those different slashes and hypheness whatever you
want to call them, they're dating me.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
And it really.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
You know, it's interesting because it's like everyone's like, oh,
you're an attachment kind of style, Like, oh no, no, no,
I'm gonna avoidant. I tie a boat on you to
push you away. I'm not attaching to you unless we're
I really feel like I can actually trust you, which
is very very hard for me. What are your thoughts
(09:58):
on that? Do you think I'm an attachment.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Well, you know, I don't like to put such heavy labels.
It sounds like, you know, you've cultivated a coping strategy
that keeps your vulnerability somewhat at bay, but it's not attractable.
And I feel like when people talk about attachment styles,
it makes it feel intractable and impossible to like address
(10:25):
and take on as if it can't be shifted or
thought about it in a different way. I mean, what
you said at the beginning is so insightful and profound
and meaningful, meaning that your tendency to help people create narratives,
which I'm translating into you taking care of people, right,
you helping people make meaning of their own lives and
(10:48):
you know whatever, we want to call it, saving them,
rescuing them, being of counsel to them. And that does
a number of things. I mean, first of all, it's
lovely in a beautiful skill of yours. I don't I'm
not saying that majorata of I mean it, And I
imagine it's a comfort zone of yours that you're really
good at it, and so you might immediately go there
because it feels like a position of strength for you.
(11:10):
It feels like something you do well, and it's compelling.
But too much of it without like emotional diversification, means
that there's automatically a power imbalance or some kind of imbalance,
namely that you're the one, as you said, putting a
bow on people's stories, and your vulnerability doesn't have a
(11:31):
way in and I imagine part of you does that
purposely right to protect yourself. And I imagine part of
you does that habitually because you're used to it.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Well, I mean, as a writer, your job is to
synthesize information.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
So that's what I do.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Is I hear what a person is saying, I synthesize it,
I process it, and then I say, well, here's my
takeaway for you.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yes, yeah, that's not what I want to do my on.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
A Tuesday at eight o'clock at night. I don't want
to be listening to someone and synthesizing for them and
promising for them.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Like I do that all day long.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I don't need to do it at home, so I
need to So to your point, like, that isn't what.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I want to do. I don't. I don't.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
I'm not a savior. I'm not someone that saves you.
I'm someone that kind of like, listen, I listen to men.
So men really are attracted to me, which is very
nice and very you know, obviously a beautiful thing. But
I also have a twin brother, so I'm not intimidated.
So when I talk to men, I'm not like, oh
my god, he talked to me and he called me.
(12:34):
I'm like, oh he called me.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
That was nice.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Made a nice time. Like I don't have those those
kind of male relationships because I don't understand the male brand.
But I'm a twin, like I'm just I have a
I just feel very comfortable and confident around men, which
is also complicated. I'm complicated, Hillary, I'm complicated.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Well, here's a challenge, is that maybe you will feel
potentially less comfortable in quotes around man or a man
if you don't immediately embody the role of synthesizer. Right.
And when I say not comfortable, I mean just more vulnerable,
more present, more open, you know. For I often say
(13:20):
this to clients and it sounds so obvious, but it
feels poignant. It's like, for things to be different, you
have to do something differently.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
You have to.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
You can have all the insight in the world from
the best therapist, you know, the most amazing friends, but
if you don't do something behaviorally that is different, you're
going to have the same result. You really have to
pair insight with different behavior to have something feel different.
And so, you know, showing up and deliberately preventing yourself
(13:51):
from doing that, maybe you can do it a little.
But guiding yourself to sit in the silence and the
awkwardness and the discomfort, you know, and might compel him
whoever he is, to ask a question or to get
more curious about you rather than filling the space with
what you know.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I just I went on a date this past couple
of days and the guy was just kind of like,
how long you've been single? And he's He's like, honestly, like,
I really don't care. I just if you want to
talk about it, you can. I was like, you know,
it's not that I care about how long that I've
been single. I just want you to know that it's
not like I'm waiting around to be in a relationships relationship.
(14:42):
I just want to enjoy myself.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Like I'm at that.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Stage of my life in my career where I am
in all the businesses that I run, I'm just very
comfortable and I'm just looking for just someone to like.
I had such a nice time at dinner with him,
and I just like, I'm just looking to enjoy my life.
And he literally his face like just kind of melted.
(15:07):
Instead of him being like, she wants to get married
tomorrow and.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
She wants to do these things and she needs this,
and she dos.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
That he was just like he was like, I'm so
happy to meet you. And I was like, oh my god,
Like I approached this in a different way, and I
didn't even know that I was.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, I just felt different.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
That's really interesting. Yeah, and you were able to follow
that energy and speak and embody a truth that was compelling.
You know, the more alignment we're in, the more compelling
it is. I think.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
I also was just in a major car accident, a
really serious car accident, two weeks ago, and.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I am just I just was like I.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Woke up one morning and I'm like, what am I doing.
My twin brothers like Kelly, He's like, one second more,
you would have been dead. He's like, do you realize,
like how lucky you are? And I know that sounds,
you know, very cliche. I had this moment, this cathartic moment.
I changed, I would changed. I just feel differently about
(16:11):
and I'm approaching things in a different way because I'm
grateful for where I am, genuinely.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
One of one of the elements to bring into your
pursuit relationally is is vulnerability around wanting to be known. Right.
You don't want to be the only curator of stories.
You want that to be mutual you want someone to
know you, which you should want someone to know you
(16:40):
mutually for that reciprocity to occur, and even going in
with that intention of wanting to be known, you know,
I mean, you might even put words to that that
like along the lines of like, hey, I just want
to be in good company with someone and enjoy space,
like you could add I want to be I want
to know someone. I want to be known, you know,
(17:01):
as part of like what you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Actually love that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I love that you just want to be known, and
I love it. And I mean I don't have those educated,
articulate words, but I did say something a little bit
along the lines, which again like gave him that opportunity
to just relax and not be afraid.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yes, and also keeps you accountable from from embodying that
same role over and over again of being the one
to know the other.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
I want to your advice about dating, you know, I went,
I'm back on Hinge and Ryan, I'm like, Okay, I'm going.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
To actually like do you want to go on date?
Let's do Let's go on a date.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
But like all my friends are like, oh, he's asking
me specific questions I'm like, I'm not asking anyone anything anymore.
I am so tired of asking them questions. That's boring me.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Like I'm just like.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
I just want to have you, get you for two
hours and people present who exactly who they are. They
tell you I don't need to ask the questions. They
are ready to tell you, and they tell you exactly
what you're like, Hey, I'm floating, they're floating. Hey, you know,
Max wife was really really mean to me, and I'm
looking for someone that's not mean to me. They're looking
(18:24):
they're telling you or me and or me what the
story is. And I was just like I wented a
couple of days. These guys seemed really really nice. They're
all very educated, nice jobs everything, and I just was like,
I can't do this.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I just can't do this. I was like, it's not
going to go forward. I just can't.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
I can't be interviewed every single time and go on
a date and I can't have you like tap dancing
around me, like you know, let's have a glass of wine. Great,
I'll meet you for half an hour. Like I need
you to just be like available and wanted to do
things and just like seeing how things go versus creating
(19:02):
some kind of like one, two, three, let's get to
the third. Yeah, so how do I how do I
tell these men stop triving to the third third date
so we can have sex?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Ah?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
That was long winned.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Yeah, no, but I needed the background actually, you know,
kind of aligning with what we were just saying about
the notion of wanting to be known. I mean, I
think you could directly say that, you know that, Like,
I'm I'm a I'm in a phase. I'm in a
season where I want to be like slow, deliberate, have
like companionship. I want to know someone. I want to
be known, and I want to like slow roll the
(19:41):
other stuff I just do. And that might be resonant
for you. It might not be like you can you
let me know?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
But a lot of the guys are like they're saying
to me, like, if you don't have sex with someone,
you don't know how you feel about them. I'm like, well,
first of all, you're not going to sex with me. Like,
I'm just not like that anyway. I'm I mean, I'm
I'm i am not on no one else's time of
my own. If I feel like having sex with you,
we will have sex. If I do not have feel
like having sex, if we might not have sex for
a month, yes, that's no harm, no foul like, Yes,
(20:11):
that's just who I am. If you cannot wait for
the month, then you're not going to be dating me.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
I think you have the answer already inside of you.
I mean, I just to kind of clarify it for
you and for other women and women listening that any
narrative that sex must happen in a particular time frame
for your potential male partner, is there a narrative, and
(20:39):
it doesn't make it bad or wrong, but it is theirs,
and you don't have to adopt it. Obviously, pressure is
a whole other thing. But if someone is still respectfully
or playfully or something you know, putting forth this narrative,
you can listen to it and respect it, but clearly
stay like it just doesn't rest with me. For me,
(21:01):
I like to have it unfold slowly, and for me,
sex comes on the back of more time and more
emotional connection, and it doesn't make you wrong in me right,
But that is who I am. And I think there's
some real empowerment in being able to look up person
in the eye and say this is who I am
and feel really good about it rather than feeling like
you're compromising an opportunity. It might sound cliche, but if
(21:25):
that isn't resonant with someone that can't be your person,
it's a pretty low bar ask, right.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
And I feel like a lot of men think that
if they do try to get me to have sex,
then they're going to lock me in or I'm a
locker in with sex because I'm having sex with her
and she can only have sex with me and because
she doesn't want, you know, and I'm just like what
is going on? Like yeah, I'm like, wait, what I would?
Speaker 3 (21:51):
I would be even more direct than you have been,
you know that, Like in case it's confusing, like this
is this is my state of the union on sex, right?
You know that it's it's on the back of time
and companionship and emotional connection and that you know, if
that's not resonant, totally cool, like, but just not going
to be an alignment for me.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Okay. Final thoughts for women that are like me that
I don't know what to ask men on a date, Like,
give me like two questions I should ask men on
my first date.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Gosh, I mean to be honest. I look, if there
are questions that come up that feel organic, ask them,
you know, sort of all the typical questions like like
what got you here? Like what season are you in?
Relationship wise? You know, you know, what's what's resonant for
(22:45):
you in your life right now? Like what are the
things that make you you? You know kind of thing
I think are fun, playful, like low pressure things. But
also I don't think to your earlier point that one
has to feel armed with a bunch of really compelling,
unique questions. You know, first meetings, first dates are all
(23:05):
fraught with those key parts you know of like awkwardness
and weirdness and some prescriptedness. And I think that's okay,
you know, even acknowledging that can sort of be like yep,
I might ask you a bunch of questions that are
standard fair for this first date, but doesn't make me
less interested here I go. You know, you can narrate
the process of awkwardness and strangeness. And I think there's
(23:29):
anything particularly unique or special that one has to force
themselves to bring, but rather to sort of acknowledge that, like,
you know, I know this could be weird, but it
doesn't make me less interested in like what your deal is, like,
what your state of the union is, what do you
like to do day to day? Like who are you?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
You know?
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Kind of thing. I think it's completely fine to narrate
the awkwardness of it rather than pretend that it doesn't
have that prescribed quality.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Oh my god, thank you so much. I love the
idea of being known, and I love the idea of
taking space. I love those two takeaways, doctor Hillary.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Thank you. I'm so happy to see you, by the way.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Oh god, often, Oh my god, you're fantastic, and you're
just so articulate, and you're just very very very easy
to talk to. Appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
It's so good to see you, Kelly.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And thank you for acknowledging my fear. And I really
that means a lot. That really means a lot to
thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, all right, all right, all right?
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Are you like me and trying to navigate this crazy
world of dating? Do you have questions or need advice?
Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All
the info are in the show notes and follow us
on socials. I do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where
falling in love is the main objective.
Host
Jennie Garth
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