April 9, 2026 • 40 mins
Former Bachelorette star Ashley Hebert is telling you why you shouldn’t fear divorce.
Now in her chapter two, Ashley is opening up about dating, learning to love herself, and why vacationing with her ex-husband has been the best thing for her kids!
Does Ashley want to get married again? Kathy Swarts is asking the tough questions!
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hey, I do Part two. It's your mentor Kathy Schwartz
from The Golden Bachelor and the podcast Bachelor Happy Hour
Golden Hour. Today, I've got an amazing guest from Bachelor Nation,
former Bachelorette now in her chapter two, Ashley A Bear. So, actually,
you were first a contestant on Brad Womack season, and
(00:41):
Brad lives in Austin like I do, so there's that connection.
And then you went on to star in The Bachelorette
for our audience, you know who may not know, tell
them how it all turned out for you, your season
as a bachelorette.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Goodness. Yeah, it's a long story. I would say overall,
it was a very successful part of my life, even
though it didn't turn out in you know, a marriage.
We were married for ten years. But I feel like,
even though we didn't stay married, like what came of
being on the show and our relationship is like such
a beautiful thing and such an important part of my
(01:17):
life and his life and our lives together. And even
though we're not, you know, even though we're not in love,
we still have a great relationship and I feel like
we've created two like amazing human beings. And we just
live a very happy, fruitful life. So I feel like,
you know, a lot of good things came out. I
(01:39):
know a lot of people say, oh, it wasn't a success,
it wasn't a true success story. But to us, it's
like a real success because our lives are forever, you know,
we're blessed by all of the things that the show
brought to us. So I think it's a real success.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Well, I'm glad to hear that. I would say it's
a real success. I mean, you, how many contestants act
actually marry the guy that they get engaged to. So
the fact that you and JP did get married and
had these two great kids and built a life for
ten years, I mean that's really the building blocks of
a good, happy life. So I'm with you. It's a success.
(02:17):
It is, thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I agree with you.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
What was it like though, I'm curious being on the
Golden Bachelor, I didn't get the guy, thankfully, But when
you meet the guy, when you and JP are in
the bubble and you're together, uh huh, what's it like then?
What was it like then to transition into building that marriage,
(02:40):
that relationship off camera?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Honestly, I feel like JP and I are very whether
cameras are on or off. I feel like it's hard
for us to not be our authentic selves, and I
think that was We're similar in that way, So I
don't think it was a huge difference from going on
camera to off camera in terms of who we were.
We were still the same people. Definitely. Of course, a
lot of you know, adjustments with your life changes, right
(03:06):
like you're in the spotlight, and I think in a
way it's great at first, but then you know when
you start going through issues, like there's different challenges that
you that you maybe deal with it differently because you're
in the public eye. So yes, very interesting. I guess
I haven't thought that it was so long ago to me.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So that's where I was heading. So you know this
as I do Part two. You're in your part two,
your chapter two. I'm curious again because this plays out
in the public eye. Did you see your divorce coming?
Because everyone on the show, you know, we get behind
the contestants, we believe in the fairy tale and so
(03:47):
just have it break up and then have it publicly.
Did you see it coming? Was it a surprise? Because
I think that's where nation saw it as a surprise.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
That's a good question. I think maybe really early on
there were some red flags that I had in my mind.
I think everything shift in when we had kids. I
think that's really what happened, and to this day now
I know looking back why we didn't work out. We're
two different people, two different we think of life, we
(04:20):
see things differently, we see life very differently. So I
can see it now. But I think when you get
caught up at the beginning, you kind of just maybe
push it off to the side, like the little red
flags that you have here and there. Yeah, and I
think it was somewhat sudden, but it was like the
first half of our marriage was very strong and then
(04:42):
I felt like it kind of crumbled towards the end.
But I also feel like sometimes when you're with someone,
like are you as authentic as you are? You ever
really being your true self. I think when people get
put in situations when you have kids and you're you're
dealing with, you know, making decisions for people that are
very important in your life, like it puts you in
a hard place and sometimes you see a person differently
(05:04):
after that. I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
No, it does. I'm sitting here thinking because I was
married very young. I was married for almost forty six years,
and my husband died by suicide. So that's that's okay,
it's okay, thank you. But I bring that up only
because you said it was sort of sudden and end
of marriage. It can be sudden or it can grow
(05:29):
or dissolve slowly over time. And you know, you've had
to obviously he's gone, You've had to co parent. You've
had to sort of build a life outside of marriage,
if that makes sense with him, with raising kids, and
that's got to be a whole nother strand of that
you probably didn't anticipate. That's what I'm guessing.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Can I tell you something funny now that I'm thinking
about it, I kind of feel like co parenting him
with him is easier than it was when we were married.
Like we get along so well, I think, when expectations
of each other are dropped and just who we are
and we don't have any expectations for the other person
except for just caring for your kids and putting your
(06:13):
kids first and doing the right thing and setting a
great example, we get along so well. You know, he
comes over to my house, sits down and we talk
for hours, like over a glass of wine. We still
are you know, we're really good co parents.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
How old are your children now?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
There are nine and eleven?
Speaker 1 (06:30):
So did they again? I wasn't divorced, but my what
immediately came to my mind? Do your children say to
you because you're you know, it's a double edged sword.
You're so successful co parenting. Why aren't mommy and daddy's
still together? Do you ever get that?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
No, they don't ask that. They know how different we are.
Oh okay, they understand. But it's really funny because we
recently went to the Bahamas, like we vacation together. So
for Springbok we took the kids to the Bahamas. I
saw that and our son Ford goes, mom, Dad, this
is a perfect opportunity for you guys to get back together.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Well that's what I'm saying. I mean there was probably
a kernel of truth in that.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, the way he said it was so fun He's like,
it's a perfect opportunity for you too.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
So I have a couple of quess So my parents,
just so we're clear, if you remember the War of
the Roses that was my parents divorce, There was nothing
collaborative or congenial. Ever, no co parenting zipity do not.
So I find the fact that you guys chose to
vacation together amazing for your children. But I'm curious why
(07:38):
was it important to do that? What made you guys
come up with that idea?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Honestly, we do everything together. We vacation together, we vacation,
we went to Hawaii for two weeks last year. We
just we love our kids, and we are still a
family even though we're divorced, like we very much are like, okay,
family time, family, dinner, family this, like we're very still,
very much still a unit. I don't know if that
makes sense to anyone else, it just works for us.
(08:04):
And also, I think it's important to show your kids that.
I know not everybody agrees with this, but I don't
think marriage is for everybody. And I think that everyone's
so scared to get divorced. It's like, oh my gosh,
my kids. But I think that when you try and
you try and it doesn't work and it's not working
and it's not healthy, I think it's okay to make
(08:25):
that decision and to still, you know, move on your
separate ways, but still have a great relationship and I
think that's what we want to show our kids too, right, Like,
it doesn't have to be perfect for it to work.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
That's a great lesson to teach your children that you know,
at a very basic level, mommy and daddy don't love
each other in that way. But we love you guys,
and we want you to grow up and be strong,
great you know, adults, And this is how we're doing it.
I think it's It may not be traditional, but who
cares if it's working.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Right, it displays healthy relationship.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Our relationship is not healthy when we were I mean,
we were fighting and screaming and arguing, but we had
a lot of tension between us and now we so
we're showing more healthy relationships now with our kids than
we did when we were married.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
I'm telling you to write a book. It'll be a
best seller for us. But I have a question. Are
either one of you dating? Because I only can imagine
that that might complicate that chapter two of I'm Dating.
But I'm also how does that work?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah? So I when I so, Okay, let me think
back here the timeline. So when we got divorced a
year later, I dated somebody seriously for four years. We're
not not together anymore, just you know, for that's a
whole other podcast, but we're not together anymore. But I
do think during that time it was really hard for JP,
(09:51):
even though we still co parented respectfully. There was not
around the kids, but when we were in like a
Loane talk or if he was messaging me, I think
there was some tension there for sure. I think the
relationship was easier when my ex boyfriend and I kind
of separated, like it was easier for him to feel
more comfortable. I know he was very hurt when I
(10:13):
moved on a year later. I don't ask him about
his relationships because I don't want to interfere in that way,
but I do think he dates on and off.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Do you think he would get married again? I'm curious. Yeah.
The reason I asked that is you said marriage isn't
for everyone.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, so unpopular opinion, and I might get some heat
from this, Like I don't. I don't. I would not
personally get married again. I don't think marriage. This is
another podcast. I don't think marriage isn't the best interest
of a woman. But that's my own that's my own
personal thing. That's my own personal thing.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Actually, this this podcast is about you, so let's talk
about that for a second. Why is it not in
your best interest? I mean, you've got to get me more.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Okay, that's a good I don't want to I don't
want to say anything too heated. I just think the
I just think as Okay, let me how to try
to explain. When I was in a relationship, I felt
like all the time I had was given to someone else.
There was no time for me. There was no everything
I had belonged to someone else. I was expected to
(11:23):
do this, this, this, care for this, do this, take
care of this. There was nothing left for me. And
I see myself as a successful person in all areas
of my life. And I don't necessarily think marriage helped
me with that. I think being a single woman allowed
(11:45):
me to be more successful in all the areas of
my life. And maybe that's not important to everybody, but
for me, I just I thrived when I was not
in a marriage, and even more when I'm not in
a relationship. So for me, it's it's working for me
right now.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So okay, so first of all, let me just say
this is your chapter two. You get to define it.
You get, you know, it doesn't matter what other people think.
You get to do this all on your terms, which
is sort of what you're saying. I'm curious you said relate.
Is it that if I think there's a financial piece
(12:20):
here too? Women I think often stay in marriage is
because they are financially insecure. They they need they can't
survive on their own, right.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I agree with that.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
So you are self reliant clearly, and that makes it
easier to espouse the theory that you're you know that
you're that you are. But I'm curious marriage. I think
that's at really any age, lots of women are choosing
to be single, have children single. But you just said
you didn't even feel the need to be in a relationship.
(12:52):
Is that tell me why that is?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I think it's just where I'm at in my life.
I think we all go through these periods, whether it's
just I style, hormonal fluctuations, or whatever it is, but
I think that we all go through our periods in
our life where we need certain things. And where I'm
at right now, I feel like I figured it out.
If I have all these responsibilities in my free time,
(13:14):
I need to be you know, like taking care of me,
and when I'm in a relationship, I'm expected to take
care of someone else, which is hard for me because
all day I'm taking care of everybody else. So it's
like I was left with nothing for me. And you know,
some people say to me, oh, well, it's probably just
the person you're with or the relationship you're you're in,
(13:36):
and maybe you just didn't find the right person. And
maybe that's true. But I'm just loving my life right
now because it's just I can go home and I
can do what I want to do right like I
can spend time with my kids, and I can I
have the I have so much freedom right now, and
I sometimes feel like, and maybe this is a negative
(13:57):
thing about me, is when I'm with someone, I feel
almost like, oh, like I can't go do this because
I got to be here doing I don't know, sitting
on the couch with this. Like I just feel such
a freedom in being single. So that's what's working for me.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I admire that, I will tell you, because I'm a
lot older than you are, and I think many women
at your age, at least my friends, my daughter, they
think they would call that, they would define that selfish.
I want to be selfish. I haven't heard that word
out of your mouth once. It's it's not being selfish,
it's living the life that you're choosing to live.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
It's because I feel like when I was younger, it
was like, oh my goodness, that's she's such a great mom.
She does everything for her kids, she sacrifices everything. And
I was that person. Yeah, and I woke up and
I said, listen, like we got to teach women to
take care of themselves. Like that's how you take care
of your kids is when you have a happy mom
(14:52):
that's well fed, that's well cared for, that's rested. Like
that's when you truly can be your best self as
a mom. And I feel like, I don't know why
we think that over like working women and sacrifice and
sacrifice and sacrifice is like a good mom.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I hear you. You're singing to the choiry or so.
When my parents were divorceding, I was young. I was six,
and I remember that I wanted again. Divorce is much
more prevalent now than it was when I was young,
but I remember I wanted. I'm curious what your kids say,
if they if they if they see you as this
(15:30):
independent woman, if they or and this happy satisfied person,
or do they or simultaneously say to you, but you know,
I would like to have that normal relationship that kids have,
you know, mom and dad, a dog and a fence
kind of thing. Or do they how do they feel
about your life choices question?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I would love to ask them. My kids are very like.
Let me give you a perfect example when when our
kids were little, when we got divorced, and when we
sat in the kitchen and told them, my son, who
was four and a half at the time, said, we
said it. We had to say it a couple of
times because we weren't sure if he was understanding, and
he said, oh, no, I understand, and I'm okay with it.
(16:13):
Like they are. So they're just they're different. I think
these kids are our kids are just different. I don't know.
I don't know if they're like old souls or they
just have like a really mature mindset and a very
they grew up in a very like, respectful, healthy family,
(16:37):
and I think that they truly embody what we've always
wanted them to be by displaying behaviors of respect towards
each other and thoughtfulness and kindness like I just think
they're like really good kids.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
You should ask them. I'm very curious because.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
We should bring them on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
We should bring them on the podcast. Your son was
four and a half. Few have a daughter as well, right.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Younger she was like she too, well, let me let
me think back my timeline here, because she might have
been she was really young, like we couldn't she wasn't understanding,
So I think maybe she was two and a half. Yeah,
he was four and a half. Yeah, it was a
long time ago.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I mean, in some ways my son got worse when
his daughter was two and a half, and in some ways,
your children it's all they know, especially since you and
your ex husband are respectful to each other. It's the
relationship they know it is. It is not abnormal. I
hate use network, but you know it's normal to them
(17:37):
because that's what they've grown up with.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Right, They're not tormented by it. They're not like I
wish you too were I've never never once have they
said I wish you two were together.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Like, how did they feel about the guy you dated
for four years?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
They loved him?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
How was that when he left?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
So he only met them a year into our relationship,
so we were very you know, like I wanted to
make sure I didn't want to introduce them to him
and if we weren't sure about the relationship. So how
so my son, for my son, Ford, he's eleven, He's
a very active boy, very like silly, funny, active, sporty,
(18:14):
and they would interact a lot like they had their
you know, fun time. But you know, my ex and
I are still friends. We still see him sometimes.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Well, you are a modern woman, I really am.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
But you know what it is like when I care
about someone and when I love someone, I really do.
It doesn't just shut off like that. I can't just
be have a great relationship with someone and then just
cut them out of my life. Like those people are
very important people. They still live in my heart. So
there's definitely still you know, still interaction with people in
(18:52):
my past.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, I just again, this was not my relationship. I've
told you, it was just abysmal. H My parents got
divorced and then so it was a very different situation.
I applaud you for that. I think I have a couple.
I have so many questions, but well, because you are
so different in a very positive way. I love the
(19:15):
message of sending to women. But so many women out
there you mess you mentioned earlier, you know there are
women out there who are contemplating getting out of a marriage.
They want a chapter two? What would you say to
them to make them? How would you tell them to
approach the decision making?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I guess it's a good question. I get a lot
of messages from people. Actually, when I got when I
we got when we announced our divorce, I got messages
from people I knew, like in person, about how did
you know? That's the real question I always get, like
how did you know your marriage was over? Like what
was it? Without sharing too many details, there was one moment,
like something that happened where I was like, yep, this
(20:00):
is this is it. There's no turning back from this.
So this is you know, this is it for me.
But I know that a lot of women, especially if
they have kids, go back and forth and like what's
the best for their kids? Like I think women truly
and men too probably, But I know the messages I've
got from women is like I don't want to ruin
my family and I don't want to mess up my kids,
and I like they're always thinking about their kids, and
(20:22):
like I said before, if you have tried and tried
at your relationship. First off, I think everybody should try
to make it work. It's not like, oh it's not working,
I'm out of here. You know, try to make it work.
We did therapy. We you know, it went on for
a long time. But I think that also it's like
it might not work. And I think it's O Number
(20:43):
one knowing it's okay to have a failed marriage. I
don't think it's called failed, but people call it failed.
I think divorce is okay if it's not working for you.
You have one life to live. You know what I
would always say to myself, do tell no, I no no.
I would always say like this, And this is no
offense to JP, because you know we talk all the time.
I'll even tell them I said this like I felt,
(21:05):
you know how women they hold in a lot of stress,
and it says it leads to like audio immune diseases.
I'm like, this marriage is going to kill me, Like
it's going to kill me. Like, so I made the
decision because I'm like, I care about myself and my
health a lot, and especially for the kids, my longevity
and for to be there for my kids. So I
kind of thought about it like that. But I also
(21:27):
think the most important thing is like, if you're not
in a healthy relationship, that's not great for your kids.
Everyone thinks sticking around an unhealthy tension like that's not
good for kids. So I think that if if it's unhealthy,
if you've worked at it, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I have to ask you. I just on my podcast
Golden Now. We just had this conversation the other day.
I think that oftentimes marriages, people go through the motions
you said, oh, we did counseling, almost like ticking the box.
Because I don't know how you feel about this, but
I'm interested. Do you think many marriages, many relationships, it
(22:16):
is a box ticking when really, in your heart of hearts,
you knew you said this is going to kill me.
You knew that you weren't happy, that it was not
a good thing for you. So is the therapy just
something you did to check the box?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
No? I mean I really wanted to see if there
was a way to fix the issues. I really did,
and I think he did too. I didn't. I don't
think about it as checking a box, but maybe other
people do. I really was curious to see if there
was a way if this was normal for two people.
But then it just got the therapy got a little weird, honestly.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Like.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
It just got a little funky, Like it just felt
what what I'll tell you is that I felt like
when we were on camera it was different from when
so we were doing it through zoom because it was
during COVID by the way, Oh got it. Oh, when
we were doing the zoom, like I felt like after
the computer close, like it was like a different dynamic. Yeah,
(23:18):
there was a different dynamic. So this is this is
not like anybody can just sit here and I could
talk to you and be whoever I want you to
think I am, and then when I close the box
be my normal self again. So it was just like
I don't know, it just it didn't work. Something happened
and it didn't work, And I won't share that because
(23:38):
that's a little like too personal.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Wait, I'm sorry, you just I just want to make
sure I understand something happened in therapy or something is
something happened in your life with JP?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yes, with JP, something that like a moment a conversation, Right,
it had to do with a therapy session? Ah, Okay,
it was something that happened, and I said, no, got it.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, no, I didn't know if you were saying they
or the marriage. Well, you know, it sounds like you
are very different from certainly my experience with divorce, I
will say in reading about you, and you know, I'm
in my chapter two of life, and I always come
and sort of think about how even though we're different
(24:21):
ages and my kids are grown and I have grandchildren
chapter two. I don't know what I want to say.
Chapter two targets, for lack of a better word, seem
to be similar for women across the board, whether you're
choosing yourself, your career, whatever it is. We take time,
(24:42):
we feel good about our chapter two. We feel good
about making decisions that are best for us. And I
find that interesting that age doesn't seem to change that.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah, I mean I think that different.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
It's so hard because I see some people in chapter
two like oh I want this, or so many people
are pushing me like oh you know, go do this
or be with this or be with this type of person,
and I'm like, I'm so happy here in my chapter two,
just you know, enjoying life and my kids and really
taking the time that I have and putting it where
(25:16):
I want to be, you know, And I feel like
I never got to experience that when I was younger.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
So so you don't want to date right now where
you do.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
I don't want to date right now.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
You don't want to date. That's how you have plenty
of time.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Sometimes I wonder like, sorry, this is maybe TMI, but
like there's part I mean forty I'm about to be
forty two, and I feel like my hormones really, like
I really understand human nature now in terms of women's hormones.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Which I know that's a whole other podcast or a
medical podcast, but I feel like my hormones have shifted
so much in like what how I feel on a
day to day, Like sometimes I feel super feminine and
I want, you know, to go on a second sorry
sexy vacation with somebody and enjoy time at the pool,
(26:04):
and the next day, I'm going to be a badass bitch,
Like I'm just going to be like you know, I'm
gonna work my butt off, I'm going to do great.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I'm going to do everything I need for the kids.
Like I just feel so different every day that I'm
trying to understand myself a little better in this like
in my fotys.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Can it all be true? I mean, it doesn't have
to be one or the other, right, yeah, right, But.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
The only thing it's confusing because it's like some days
I want one thing, like some days I want to date,
and then the next day I'm like, Nope, I don't
want to date. So that's the tricky part that I'm
trying to understand. But I think just time will reveal.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, I was going to say, it's not. It's like
some days you want vanill ice cream, some days you
want chocolate ice cream. You know it doesn't. So I'm
curious what advice would you give women? Because you clearly
are very content successful in your chapter two. Not all
women feel that way. So how would you tell a
(26:58):
woman to find her happy place? How would you tell
her how to date? What advice would you give to
women your age or close to your age who are
entering chapter their chapter two?
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Well, you know what I would tell anybody, anybody going
into chapter two, or anybody in their chapter one or
whatever chapter they're in, is I truly believe in a
woman's body and their like their gut if you have
to force something, like if you fighting something it's not
right for you, you have to go where like the
(27:31):
waterfall will push you like naturally, like if you're always
like for me, when something's not right for me, I'm
fighting back, I'm fighting back against it. But then you
have to just release and let it go like that,
like trust yourself in knowing what's right for you. If
your marriage isn't working, or if your relationship or isn't working,
or your job isn't working, stop fighting it, Stop fighting it.
(27:55):
You do the work. It's okay to let go. It's
okay to shift, it's okay to to make decisions that
are best for you. It's okay to be a little
selfish because when you take care of yourself, guess what,
You're a better mom, You're a better friend. Yeah, you're
a better person.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
It's putting the oxygen mask on yourself first.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah. I love who I am because I take care
of myself so I can be my best self for
everybody around me. So that's kind of I don't know.
That was a lot of different things. I think I
only learned that as I was getting older, because like
in my thirties, I was, you know, it's like suffering,
was it's like almost like women. I don't know, I
don't know if you if they make you or society
(28:36):
makes you think like suffering is part of like being
a woman and like giving everything to everybody and not
caring for yourself. And I think that needs to shift,
Like that's that's what I would tell people, care for yourself.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's great advice. I do
think that as women, and you've said it very very succinctly,
that women are expected to do it all and give
all and be all to everyone, and sometimes we get
lost in the shuffle or what we want for ourselves.
And I think that's what's hard about getting from If
(29:12):
you're going from chapter one to chapter two, again, you
and I are both in our chapter two is we
got here in very different ways. I think what I've
learned first, I was going to take what I've learned.
What is the biggest thing you've learned about yourself from
going from chapter one to chapter two, other than to
take care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, that's a good question. I think I've learned that
maybe I don't like, maybe I don't follow the mold
in that way like I had different beliefs about things,
and also I'm open to changing my beliefs. Maybe I
think that I learned when I care about myself, I'm
a better person all around. For my kids, I think
(29:50):
a lot of small this is something that I learned.
This is so silly. I don't even know if you're
going to care about this.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Of course I care, and it's never silly, but go ahead.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
This has helped me so much in my life, in
every different in business, in keeping my house tidy, and
caring for my kids, in saving money for this, Like
all these little, these little steps, all these little things
that you do, add up to something really big one day.
So I used to push myself ashlely, do this, actually
(30:20):
do that. I was grinding, grinding, and then you know
what happened. I burnt out and I was left with nothing.
And then I decided to do just a little bit
every day, and guess what, I cared for myself and
it turned into something really big in every aspect of
my life. So small steps equal something big in the end.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
And it's so funny you say that, because I agree
with you wholeheartedly. I also what I've learned. It's okay
to say no. I mean, among other.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Things, that's really that's a good one.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, I've learned to say no. And I've also learned,
which you seem to have mastered expertly. I've learned I'm
not everybody's cup of tea, and not everyone's going to
agree with the way I live my life.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
And that's okay, that's okay, and that's something you learn
like later in life. I find right, we're all so
insecure when we're younger about there's too many people in
the world to please.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Sorry, but I think it your I mean, I have,
I have a son on it's going to be forty one.
But you know, I think that you have mastered the
art of you in a in a I don't know why,
just the circumstances of your life that really could be
a model to other women, because I do think we're
expected to, you know, when the just even basic things
(31:34):
like when the kid is sick, who stays home his
the mom? You know it's right. You know, there's books
written about mother daughter connection and it's just it's it's
it's almost it's almost a cultural expectation that we have
to learn two to say no, no more. I'm not
(31:56):
going to do this. That's not what my life is
going to be. And you seem to have mastered it.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, I think so, I hope. So I'm not sure.
I mean I'm not perfect, definitely, And don't get me wrong,
I'm obsessed with my kids and I'm constantly like doing
everything for them. But when there are moments where are
there are opportunities for me to step away and stop
pushing and stop pushing, I take them and I used
to not take them.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Do you think do you think you're raising your kids?
This is something I struggled with. How do you teach
your kids the really important lessons that you want them
to learn about about life?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
How do you do that by being a role model
to them? Like I truly feel like I could tell
my kids, you know, make sure you take care of yourself,
make sure you speak to this person this way. But
if you're not doing that yourself, then I don't think
that it's going to you know, soak in with your kids,
like I truly, in every situation around my kids try
to be what I would want them to be. I
(33:06):
don't know if that makes sense. And my son, especially
who he's he's a little edgy, Like he's he's rambunctious,
and he has a tendency to go towards kind of
like he's edgy. That's all I'm gonna say.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
I don't know, I don't know what edgy means. I'm
not trying to dig I just I.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Know he's edgy. He's like he'll push boundaries with you
or like he'll like he's a kind person, he will
never you know, he's a very kind person, but he
likes to he likes to live on the edge. So
for him, you know, like, and I always tell JP
what's important to me is that he is obviously a
good person cares for people, but that he is a
(33:46):
gentleman and cares about his mom and cares about the
women in his life, so his sister. He has to
take great care of his sister and his future significant
other if he ever decides to do that. And I
always tell JP, like how you speak to me like
he's watching you. You know, our kids are watching us,
So you know we talk about that a lot. So
(34:08):
we just try to be the best people we can
be working.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yeah, now, but again, I mean the thing that you're saying,
Ashley is I just I was just saying this. On
another podcast, she was asking me about advice for mothering,
and I said, your children are not going to listen
to what you say. They're going to watch what you do.
And so if you want to be the good role model,
(34:31):
don't tell them what to do, show them what to do.
And you are forty two years old, and it is
amazing to me. Maybe I'm just out of touch, but
you couldn't be more right. I mean, that is exactly
and you're doing it. You're doing it.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
So they're turning out pretty good.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
So for I mean to be fair, Ashley, they have
not hit the teen years yet. We're gonna in two
more years, I'm going to ask you how things are going.
You might have a different answer, right right, Sure, you
know that's part. That's part of raising teenager. I mean,
that's their fight for independence. That's just a normal stage too.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yeah, I'm living this stage right now. It's like they're
they're independent, they're curious, they're fun, they're funny, they have
their own personalities, but they're not living like they're not
going out on their own right. It's like that's a
whole different worry that I'm not ready for.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Well, the good news is you know, you do have
a few more years before you have to worry about that.
But I actually, you know, I actually did watch your season.
It was a long time ago, but I watched it,
and I think that this is just another example you
and your your divorce, You're moving on your relationship with
(35:43):
JP and your kids. You are such a good role
model for bachelorette that what life, you know, what starts
as a reality TV show for you turned into a
real life marriage, a real life Now you're building your
chapter two, and I think that message is just as
(36:04):
important as the fairy tale we met on TV and
fell in love and got married. I love that you
are building a strong life for yourself and that you
still have a great family unit and great kids and
a great relationship with JP. That is to be commended.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
So thank you so much. You're so sweet. I really
appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Yeah, I really, I really have enjoyed chatting with you,
and I kind of wish that I had had this
conversation when I was raising my kids. But alas and
a lack, I'm now a grandmother and now I just
have to, you know, uh, hope to do better myself,
you know, do better with my grandkids. One last question,
(36:48):
I need some advice because I struggle sometimes.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Okay, let's hear it.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
How do you work because I, you know, I have
these kids and I have issues with adult kids, and
my life is somewhat complicated like many people. How do
you work on love? What's the best thing I can
do loving yourself? What advice do you give for someone
to aside from taking time for yourself? What is the
self talk?
Speaker 2 (37:12):
A good question? You know what I have to do
sometimes I have to think of myself. I have to
think of myself as someone else when I think back,
like I think of myself as my daughter a lot.
And I say, because I'm hard on myself, right, like
did I do this right? Did I do this the
(37:32):
right way? And when I look back on my life
and I think of me as someone else and all
the things that that person has accomplished, and I think
to myself, wow, like they did it, Like they overcame this,
they did this, they created this, they were so successful
with this, And then I can really just say, hey, Ashley,
good job. Like it's almost like it's foreign for me
(37:55):
to look at myself and say, wow, Ashley, you did it,
Like you did a great job, Ashley. But sometimes I
look at myself as if I was my daughter, and
that helps me kind of shift and allow myself to
give credit to myself, like you did this, You're a badass,
like good for you. And I don't know why I'm
like that, but yeah, often thinking of myself as someone
else is really helps me give the credit that I
(38:16):
probably deserve.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
I actually love that idea. I'm going to try that
because I think sometimes if you take yourself out, whether
it's pretending your daughter your daughter, or just taking yourself
out in like three faces of eve, you know, talking
to somebody else that's right there across the room, your
alter ego, whatever, saying congratulating yourself, patting yourself on the back,
(38:39):
sometimes it's the most affirming. I've never thought of it
that way.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Or sometimes I think of myself as like a young
kid because I grew up in a really small town,
like in the middle of nowhere, and I always knew
I wanted to get out, and I always knew I
wanted to I dreamed so big, like I almost had
this faith in myself that you know, was like almost unrealistic.
But you know what, when you believe in your yourself
like that, and you keep going and you like put
(39:03):
put it in your mind that you can do it,
like you can really do it.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, well that's that's and you've done it, and that
is the self talk. I love this. I love hearing
a woman your age when so many women are fighting
like we started this off, you know, going through divorces,
going through such our times. You have such a positive
outlook and I love it. I love hearing it. And
I hope that other women who are in uh trying
(39:28):
to figure out are they going to stick in part one?
Are they going to move to part two? What are
they going to do with their lives? I hope everything
you've said today gives them take care of themselves and
and and can build whatever it is they want to
build in their life. Wow, Well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Good talking to you.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
I enjoyed talking to you too, Ashley. I did I
really have a therapy session and it didn't cost either
one of us or.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Dot And we're not just checking a box, by the.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Way, way, we are not checking boxes. Well, let's do
you need some advice on how to navigate dating? In
chapter two, call us or email us. All the info
is in the show notes, follow us on socials, and
make sure to rate and review the podcast. I Do
Part two, an iHeart podcast where falling in love is
(40:19):
the main objective.
Hey, I do Part two. It's your mentor Kathy Schwartz
from The Golden Bachelor and the podcast Bachelor Happy Hour
Golden Hour. Today, I've got an amazing guest from Bachelor Nation,
former Bachelorette now in her chapter two, Ashley A Bear. So, actually,
you were first a contestant on Brad Womack season, and
(00:41):
Brad lives in Austin like I do, so there's that connection.
And then you went on to star in The Bachelorette
for our audience, you know who may not know, tell
them how it all turned out for you, your season
as a bachelorette.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Goodness. Yeah, it's a long story. I would say overall,
it was a very successful part of my life, even
though it didn't turn out in you know, a marriage.
We were married for ten years. But I feel like,
even though we didn't stay married, like what came of
being on the show and our relationship is like such
a beautiful thing and such an important part of my
(01:17):
life and his life and our lives together. And even
though we're not, you know, even though we're not in love,
we still have a great relationship and I feel like
we've created two like amazing human beings. And we just
live a very happy, fruitful life. So I feel like,
you know, a lot of good things came out. I
(01:39):
know a lot of people say, oh, it wasn't a success,
it wasn't a true success story. But to us, it's
like a real success because our lives are forever, you know,
we're blessed by all of the things that the show
brought to us. So I think it's a real success.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Well, I'm glad to hear that. I would say it's
a real success. I mean, you, how many contestants act
actually marry the guy that they get engaged to. So
the fact that you and JP did get married and
had these two great kids and built a life for
ten years, I mean that's really the building blocks of
a good, happy life. So I'm with you. It's a success.
(02:17):
It is, thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I agree with you.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
What was it like though, I'm curious being on the
Golden Bachelor, I didn't get the guy, thankfully, But when
you meet the guy, when you and JP are in
the bubble and you're together, uh huh, what's it like then?
What was it like then to transition into building that marriage,
(02:40):
that relationship off camera?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Honestly, I feel like JP and I are very whether
cameras are on or off. I feel like it's hard
for us to not be our authentic selves, and I
think that was We're similar in that way, So I
don't think it was a huge difference from going on
camera to off camera in terms of who we were.
We were still the same people. Definitely. Of course, a
lot of you know, adjustments with your life changes, right
(03:06):
like you're in the spotlight, and I think in a
way it's great at first, but then you know when
you start going through issues, like there's different challenges that
you that you maybe deal with it differently because you're
in the public eye. So yes, very interesting. I guess
I haven't thought that it was so long ago to me.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So that's where I was heading. So you know this
as I do Part two. You're in your part two,
your chapter two. I'm curious again because this plays out
in the public eye. Did you see your divorce coming?
Because everyone on the show, you know, we get behind
the contestants, we believe in the fairy tale and so
(03:47):
just have it break up and then have it publicly.
Did you see it coming? Was it a surprise? Because
I think that's where nation saw it as a surprise.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
That's a good question. I think maybe really early on
there were some red flags that I had in my mind.
I think everything shift in when we had kids. I
think that's really what happened, and to this day now
I know looking back why we didn't work out. We're
two different people, two different we think of life, we
(04:20):
see things differently, we see life very differently. So I
can see it now. But I think when you get
caught up at the beginning, you kind of just maybe
push it off to the side, like the little red
flags that you have here and there. Yeah, and I
think it was somewhat sudden, but it was like the
first half of our marriage was very strong and then
(04:42):
I felt like it kind of crumbled towards the end.
But I also feel like sometimes when you're with someone,
like are you as authentic as you are? You ever
really being your true self. I think when people get
put in situations when you have kids and you're you're
dealing with, you know, making decisions for people that are
very important in your life, like it puts you in
a hard place and sometimes you see a person differently
(05:04):
after that. I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
No, it does. I'm sitting here thinking because I was
married very young. I was married for almost forty six years,
and my husband died by suicide. So that's that's okay,
it's okay, thank you. But I bring that up only
because you said it was sort of sudden and end
of marriage. It can be sudden or it can grow
(05:29):
or dissolve slowly over time. And you know, you've had
to obviously he's gone, You've had to co parent. You've
had to sort of build a life outside of marriage,
if that makes sense with him, with raising kids, and
that's got to be a whole nother strand of that
you probably didn't anticipate. That's what I'm guessing.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Can I tell you something funny now that I'm thinking
about it, I kind of feel like co parenting him
with him is easier than it was when we were married.
Like we get along so well, I think, when expectations
of each other are dropped and just who we are
and we don't have any expectations for the other person
except for just caring for your kids and putting your
(06:13):
kids first and doing the right thing and setting a
great example, we get along so well. You know, he
comes over to my house, sits down and we talk
for hours, like over a glass of wine. We still
are you know, we're really good co parents.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
How old are your children now?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
There are nine and eleven?
Speaker 1 (06:30):
So did they again? I wasn't divorced, but my what
immediately came to my mind? Do your children say to
you because you're you know, it's a double edged sword.
You're so successful co parenting. Why aren't mommy and daddy's
still together? Do you ever get that?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
No, they don't ask that. They know how different we are.
Oh okay, they understand. But it's really funny because we
recently went to the Bahamas, like we vacation together. So
for Springbok we took the kids to the Bahamas. I
saw that and our son Ford goes, mom, Dad, this
is a perfect opportunity for you guys to get back together.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Well that's what I'm saying. I mean there was probably
a kernel of truth in that.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, the way he said it was so fun He's like,
it's a perfect opportunity for you too.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
So I have a couple of quess So my parents,
just so we're clear, if you remember the War of
the Roses that was my parents divorce, There was nothing
collaborative or congenial. Ever, no co parenting zipity do not.
So I find the fact that you guys chose to
vacation together amazing for your children. But I'm curious why
(07:38):
was it important to do that? What made you guys
come up with that idea?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Honestly, we do everything together. We vacation together, we vacation,
we went to Hawaii for two weeks last year. We
just we love our kids, and we are still a
family even though we're divorced, like we very much are like, okay,
family time, family, dinner, family this, like we're very still,
very much still a unit. I don't know if that
makes sense to anyone else, it just works for us.
(08:04):
And also, I think it's important to show your kids that.
I know not everybody agrees with this, but I don't
think marriage is for everybody. And I think that everyone's
so scared to get divorced. It's like, oh my gosh,
my kids. But I think that when you try and
you try and it doesn't work and it's not working
and it's not healthy, I think it's okay to make
(08:25):
that decision and to still, you know, move on your
separate ways, but still have a great relationship and I
think that's what we want to show our kids too, right, Like,
it doesn't have to be perfect for it to work.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
That's a great lesson to teach your children that you know,
at a very basic level, mommy and daddy don't love
each other in that way. But we love you guys,
and we want you to grow up and be strong,
great you know, adults, And this is how we're doing it.
I think it's It may not be traditional, but who
cares if it's working.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Right, it displays healthy relationship.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Our relationship is not healthy when we were I mean,
we were fighting and screaming and arguing, but we had
a lot of tension between us and now we so
we're showing more healthy relationships now with our kids than
we did when we were married.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
I'm telling you to write a book. It'll be a
best seller for us. But I have a question. Are
either one of you dating? Because I only can imagine
that that might complicate that chapter two of I'm Dating.
But I'm also how does that work?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah? So I when I so, Okay, let me think
back here the timeline. So when we got divorced a
year later, I dated somebody seriously for four years. We're
not not together anymore, just you know, for that's a
whole other podcast, but we're not together anymore. But I
do think during that time it was really hard for JP,
(09:51):
even though we still co parented respectfully. There was not
around the kids, but when we were in like a
Loane talk or if he was messaging me, I think
there was some tension there for sure. I think the
relationship was easier when my ex boyfriend and I kind
of separated, like it was easier for him to feel
more comfortable. I know he was very hurt when I
(10:13):
moved on a year later. I don't ask him about
his relationships because I don't want to interfere in that way,
but I do think he dates on and off.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Do you think he would get married again? I'm curious. Yeah.
The reason I asked that is you said marriage isn't
for everyone.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, so unpopular opinion, and I might get some heat
from this, Like I don't. I don't. I would not
personally get married again. I don't think marriage. This is
another podcast. I don't think marriage isn't the best interest
of a woman. But that's my own that's my own
personal thing. That's my own personal thing.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Actually, this this podcast is about you, so let's talk
about that for a second. Why is it not in
your best interest? I mean, you've got to get me more.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Okay, that's a good I don't want to I don't
want to say anything too heated. I just think the
I just think as Okay, let me how to try
to explain. When I was in a relationship, I felt
like all the time I had was given to someone else.
There was no time for me. There was no everything
I had belonged to someone else. I was expected to
(11:23):
do this, this, this, care for this, do this, take
care of this. There was nothing left for me. And
I see myself as a successful person in all areas
of my life. And I don't necessarily think marriage helped
me with that. I think being a single woman allowed
(11:45):
me to be more successful in all the areas of
my life. And maybe that's not important to everybody, but
for me, I just I thrived when I was not
in a marriage, and even more when I'm not in
a relationship. So for me, it's it's working for me
right now.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So okay, so first of all, let me just say
this is your chapter two. You get to define it.
You get, you know, it doesn't matter what other people think.
You get to do this all on your terms, which
is sort of what you're saying. I'm curious you said relate.
Is it that if I think there's a financial piece
(12:20):
here too? Women I think often stay in marriage is
because they are financially insecure. They they need they can't
survive on their own, right.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I agree with that.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
So you are self reliant clearly, and that makes it
easier to espouse the theory that you're you know that
you're that you are. But I'm curious marriage. I think
that's at really any age, lots of women are choosing
to be single, have children single. But you just said
you didn't even feel the need to be in a relationship.
(12:52):
Is that tell me why that is?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I think it's just where I'm at in my life.
I think we all go through these periods, whether it's
just I style, hormonal fluctuations, or whatever it is, but
I think that we all go through our periods in
our life where we need certain things. And where I'm
at right now, I feel like I figured it out.
If I have all these responsibilities in my free time,
(13:14):
I need to be you know, like taking care of me,
and when I'm in a relationship, I'm expected to take
care of someone else, which is hard for me because
all day I'm taking care of everybody else. So it's
like I was left with nothing for me. And you know,
some people say to me, oh, well, it's probably just
the person you're with or the relationship you're you're in,
(13:36):
and maybe you just didn't find the right person. And
maybe that's true. But I'm just loving my life right
now because it's just I can go home and I
can do what I want to do right like I
can spend time with my kids, and I can I
have the I have so much freedom right now, and
I sometimes feel like, and maybe this is a negative
(13:57):
thing about me, is when I'm with someone, I feel
almost like, oh, like I can't go do this because
I got to be here doing I don't know, sitting
on the couch with this. Like I just feel such
a freedom in being single. So that's what's working for me.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I admire that, I will tell you, because I'm a
lot older than you are, and I think many women
at your age, at least my friends, my daughter, they
think they would call that, they would define that selfish.
I want to be selfish. I haven't heard that word
out of your mouth once. It's it's not being selfish,
it's living the life that you're choosing to live.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
It's because I feel like when I was younger, it
was like, oh my goodness, that's she's such a great mom.
She does everything for her kids, she sacrifices everything. And
I was that person. Yeah, and I woke up and
I said, listen, like we got to teach women to
take care of themselves. Like that's how you take care
of your kids is when you have a happy mom
(14:52):
that's well fed, that's well cared for, that's rested. Like
that's when you truly can be your best self as
a mom. And I feel like, I don't know why
we think that over like working women and sacrifice and
sacrifice and sacrifice is like a good mom.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I hear you. You're singing to the choiry or so.
When my parents were divorceding, I was young. I was six,
and I remember that I wanted again. Divorce is much
more prevalent now than it was when I was young,
but I remember I wanted. I'm curious what your kids say,
if they if they if they see you as this
(15:30):
independent woman, if they or and this happy satisfied person,
or do they or simultaneously say to you, but you know,
I would like to have that normal relationship that kids have,
you know, mom and dad, a dog and a fence
kind of thing. Or do they how do they feel
about your life choices question?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I would love to ask them. My kids are very like.
Let me give you a perfect example when when our
kids were little, when we got divorced, and when we
sat in the kitchen and told them, my son, who
was four and a half at the time, said, we
said it. We had to say it a couple of
times because we weren't sure if he was understanding, and
he said, oh, no, I understand, and I'm okay with it.
(16:13):
Like they are. So they're just they're different. I think
these kids are our kids are just different. I don't know.
I don't know if they're like old souls or they
just have like a really mature mindset and a very
they grew up in a very like, respectful, healthy family,
(16:37):
and I think that they truly embody what we've always
wanted them to be by displaying behaviors of respect towards
each other and thoughtfulness and kindness like I just think
they're like really good kids.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
You should ask them. I'm very curious because.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
We should bring them on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
We should bring them on the podcast. Your son was
four and a half. Few have a daughter as well, right.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Younger she was like she too, well, let me let
me think back my timeline here, because she might have
been she was really young, like we couldn't she wasn't understanding,
So I think maybe she was two and a half. Yeah,
he was four and a half. Yeah, it was a
long time ago.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I mean, in some ways my son got worse when
his daughter was two and a half, and in some ways,
your children it's all they know, especially since you and
your ex husband are respectful to each other. It's the
relationship they know it is. It is not abnormal. I
hate use network, but you know it's normal to them
(17:37):
because that's what they've grown up with.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Right, They're not tormented by it. They're not like I
wish you too were I've never never once have they
said I wish you two were together.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Like, how did they feel about the guy you dated
for four years?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
They loved him?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
How was that when he left?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
So he only met them a year into our relationship,
so we were very you know, like I wanted to
make sure I didn't want to introduce them to him
and if we weren't sure about the relationship. So how
so my son, for my son, Ford, he's eleven, He's
a very active boy, very like silly, funny, active, sporty,
(18:14):
and they would interact a lot like they had their
you know, fun time. But you know, my ex and
I are still friends. We still see him sometimes.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Well, you are a modern woman, I really am.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
But you know what it is like when I care
about someone and when I love someone, I really do.
It doesn't just shut off like that. I can't just
be have a great relationship with someone and then just
cut them out of my life. Like those people are
very important people. They still live in my heart. So
there's definitely still you know, still interaction with people in
(18:52):
my past.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, I just again, this was not my relationship. I've
told you, it was just abysmal. H My parents got
divorced and then so it was a very different situation.
I applaud you for that. I think I have a couple.
I have so many questions, but well, because you are
so different in a very positive way. I love the
(19:15):
message of sending to women. But so many women out
there you mess you mentioned earlier, you know there are
women out there who are contemplating getting out of a marriage.
They want a chapter two? What would you say to
them to make them? How would you tell them to
approach the decision making?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I guess it's a good question. I get a lot
of messages from people. Actually, when I got when I
we got when we announced our divorce, I got messages
from people I knew, like in person, about how did
you know? That's the real question I always get, like
how did you know your marriage was over? Like what
was it? Without sharing too many details, there was one moment,
like something that happened where I was like, yep, this
(20:00):
is this is it. There's no turning back from this.
So this is you know, this is it for me.
But I know that a lot of women, especially if
they have kids, go back and forth and like what's
the best for their kids? Like I think women truly
and men too probably, But I know the messages I've
got from women is like I don't want to ruin
my family and I don't want to mess up my kids,
and I like they're always thinking about their kids, and
(20:22):
like I said before, if you have tried and tried
at your relationship. First off, I think everybody should try
to make it work. It's not like, oh it's not working,
I'm out of here. You know, try to make it work.
We did therapy. We you know, it went on for
a long time. But I think that also it's like
it might not work. And I think it's O Number
(20:43):
one knowing it's okay to have a failed marriage. I
don't think it's called failed, but people call it failed.
I think divorce is okay if it's not working for you.
You have one life to live. You know what I
would always say to myself, do tell no, I no no.
I would always say like this, And this is no
offense to JP, because you know we talk all the time.
I'll even tell them I said this like I felt,
(21:05):
you know how women they hold in a lot of stress,
and it says it leads to like audio immune diseases.
I'm like, this marriage is going to kill me, Like
it's going to kill me. Like, so I made the
decision because I'm like, I care about myself and my
health a lot, and especially for the kids, my longevity
and for to be there for my kids. So I
kind of thought about it like that. But I also
(21:27):
think the most important thing is like, if you're not
in a healthy relationship, that's not great for your kids.
Everyone thinks sticking around an unhealthy tension like that's not
good for kids. So I think that if if it's unhealthy,
if you've worked at it, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I have to ask you. I just on my podcast
Golden Now. We just had this conversation the other day.
I think that oftentimes marriages, people go through the motions
you said, oh, we did counseling, almost like ticking the box.
Because I don't know how you feel about this, but
I'm interested. Do you think many marriages, many relationships, it
(22:16):
is a box ticking when really, in your heart of hearts,
you knew you said this is going to kill me.
You knew that you weren't happy, that it was not
a good thing for you. So is the therapy just
something you did to check the box?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
No? I mean I really wanted to see if there
was a way to fix the issues. I really did,
and I think he did too. I didn't. I don't
think about it as checking a box, but maybe other
people do. I really was curious to see if there
was a way if this was normal for two people.
But then it just got the therapy got a little weird, honestly.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Like.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
It just got a little funky, Like it just felt
what what I'll tell you is that I felt like
when we were on camera it was different from when
so we were doing it through zoom because it was
during COVID by the way, Oh got it. Oh, when
we were doing the zoom, like I felt like after
the computer close, like it was like a different dynamic. Yeah,
(23:18):
there was a different dynamic. So this is this is
not like anybody can just sit here and I could
talk to you and be whoever I want you to
think I am, and then when I close the box
be my normal self again. So it was just like
I don't know, it just it didn't work. Something happened
and it didn't work, And I won't share that because
(23:38):
that's a little like too personal.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Wait, I'm sorry, you just I just want to make
sure I understand something happened in therapy or something is
something happened in your life with JP?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yes, with JP, something that like a moment a conversation, Right,
it had to do with a therapy session? Ah, Okay,
it was something that happened, and I said, no, got it.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, no, I didn't know if you were saying they
or the marriage. Well, you know, it sounds like you
are very different from certainly my experience with divorce, I
will say in reading about you, and you know, I'm
in my chapter two of life, and I always come
and sort of think about how even though we're different
(24:21):
ages and my kids are grown and I have grandchildren
chapter two. I don't know what I want to say.
Chapter two targets, for lack of a better word, seem
to be similar for women across the board, whether you're
choosing yourself, your career, whatever it is. We take time,
(24:42):
we feel good about our chapter two. We feel good
about making decisions that are best for us. And I
find that interesting that age doesn't seem to change that.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah, I mean I think that different.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
It's so hard because I see some people in chapter
two like oh I want this, or so many people
are pushing me like oh you know, go do this
or be with this or be with this type of person,
and I'm like, I'm so happy here in my chapter two,
just you know, enjoying life and my kids and really
taking the time that I have and putting it where
(25:16):
I want to be, you know, And I feel like
I never got to experience that when I was younger.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
So so you don't want to date right now where
you do.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
I don't want to date right now.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
You don't want to date. That's how you have plenty
of time.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Sometimes I wonder like, sorry, this is maybe TMI, but
like there's part I mean forty I'm about to be
forty two, and I feel like my hormones really, like
I really understand human nature now in terms of women's hormones.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Which I know that's a whole other podcast or a
medical podcast, but I feel like my hormones have shifted
so much in like what how I feel on a
day to day, Like sometimes I feel super feminine and
I want, you know, to go on a second sorry
sexy vacation with somebody and enjoy time at the pool,
(26:04):
and the next day, I'm going to be a badass bitch,
Like I'm just going to be like you know, I'm
gonna work my butt off, I'm going to do great.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I'm going to do everything I need for the kids.
Like I just feel so different every day that I'm
trying to understand myself a little better in this like
in my fotys.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Can it all be true? I mean, it doesn't have
to be one or the other, right, yeah, right, But.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
The only thing it's confusing because it's like some days
I want one thing, like some days I want to date,
and then the next day I'm like, Nope, I don't
want to date. So that's the tricky part that I'm
trying to understand. But I think just time will reveal.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, I was going to say, it's not. It's like
some days you want vanill ice cream, some days you
want chocolate ice cream. You know it doesn't. So I'm
curious what advice would you give women? Because you clearly
are very content successful in your chapter two. Not all
women feel that way. So how would you tell a
(26:58):
woman to find her happy place? How would you tell
her how to date? What advice would you give to
women your age or close to your age who are
entering chapter their chapter two?
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Well, you know what I would tell anybody, anybody going
into chapter two, or anybody in their chapter one or
whatever chapter they're in, is I truly believe in a
woman's body and their like their gut if you have
to force something, like if you fighting something it's not
right for you, you have to go where like the
(27:31):
waterfall will push you like naturally, like if you're always
like for me, when something's not right for me, I'm
fighting back, I'm fighting back against it. But then you
have to just release and let it go like that,
like trust yourself in knowing what's right for you. If
your marriage isn't working, or if your relationship or isn't working,
or your job isn't working, stop fighting it, Stop fighting it.
(27:55):
You do the work. It's okay to let go. It's
okay to shift, it's okay to to make decisions that
are best for you. It's okay to be a little
selfish because when you take care of yourself, guess what,
You're a better mom, You're a better friend. Yeah, you're
a better person.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
It's putting the oxygen mask on yourself first.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah. I love who I am because I take care
of myself so I can be my best self for
everybody around me. So that's kind of I don't know.
That was a lot of different things. I think I
only learned that as I was getting older, because like
in my thirties, I was, you know, it's like suffering,
was it's like almost like women. I don't know, I
don't know if you if they make you or society
(28:36):
makes you think like suffering is part of like being
a woman and like giving everything to everybody and not
caring for yourself. And I think that needs to shift,
Like that's that's what I would tell people, care for yourself.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's great advice. I do
think that as women, and you've said it very very succinctly,
that women are expected to do it all and give
all and be all to everyone, and sometimes we get
lost in the shuffle or what we want for ourselves.
And I think that's what's hard about getting from If
(29:12):
you're going from chapter one to chapter two, again, you
and I are both in our chapter two is we
got here in very different ways. I think what I've
learned first, I was going to take what I've learned.
What is the biggest thing you've learned about yourself from
going from chapter one to chapter two, other than to
take care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, that's a good question. I think I've learned that
maybe I don't like, maybe I don't follow the mold
in that way like I had different beliefs about things,
and also I'm open to changing my beliefs. Maybe I
think that I learned when I care about myself, I'm
a better person all around. For my kids, I think
(29:50):
a lot of small this is something that I learned.
This is so silly. I don't even know if you're
going to care about this.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Of course I care, and it's never silly, but go ahead.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
This has helped me so much in my life, in
every different in business, in keeping my house tidy, and
caring for my kids, in saving money for this, Like
all these little, these little steps, all these little things
that you do, add up to something really big one day.
So I used to push myself ashlely, do this, actually
(30:20):
do that. I was grinding, grinding, and then you know
what happened. I burnt out and I was left with nothing.
And then I decided to do just a little bit
every day, and guess what, I cared for myself and
it turned into something really big in every aspect of
my life. So small steps equal something big in the end.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
And it's so funny you say that, because I agree
with you wholeheartedly. I also what I've learned. It's okay
to say no. I mean, among other.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Things, that's really that's a good one.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, I've learned to say no. And I've also learned,
which you seem to have mastered expertly. I've learned I'm
not everybody's cup of tea, and not everyone's going to
agree with the way I live my life.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
And that's okay, that's okay, and that's something you learn
like later in life. I find right, we're all so
insecure when we're younger about there's too many people in
the world to please.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Sorry, but I think it your I mean, I have,
I have a son on it's going to be forty one.
But you know, I think that you have mastered the
art of you in a in a I don't know why,
just the circumstances of your life that really could be
a model to other women, because I do think we're
expected to, you know, when the just even basic things
(31:34):
like when the kid is sick, who stays home his
the mom? You know it's right. You know, there's books
written about mother daughter connection and it's just it's it's
it's almost it's almost a cultural expectation that we have
to learn two to say no, no more. I'm not
(31:56):
going to do this. That's not what my life is
going to be. And you seem to have mastered it.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, I think so, I hope. So I'm not sure.
I mean I'm not perfect, definitely, And don't get me wrong,
I'm obsessed with my kids and I'm constantly like doing
everything for them. But when there are moments where are
there are opportunities for me to step away and stop
pushing and stop pushing, I take them and I used
to not take them.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Do you think do you think you're raising your kids?
This is something I struggled with. How do you teach
your kids the really important lessons that you want them
to learn about about life?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
How do you do that by being a role model
to them? Like I truly feel like I could tell
my kids, you know, make sure you take care of yourself,
make sure you speak to this person this way. But
if you're not doing that yourself, then I don't think
that it's going to you know, soak in with your kids,
like I truly, in every situation around my kids try
to be what I would want them to be. I
(33:06):
don't know if that makes sense. And my son, especially
who he's he's a little edgy, Like he's he's rambunctious,
and he has a tendency to go towards kind of
like he's edgy. That's all I'm gonna say.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
I don't know, I don't know what edgy means. I'm
not trying to dig I just I.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Know he's edgy. He's like he'll push boundaries with you
or like he'll like he's a kind person, he will
never you know, he's a very kind person, but he
likes to he likes to live on the edge. So
for him, you know, like, and I always tell JP
what's important to me is that he is obviously a
good person cares for people, but that he is a
(33:46):
gentleman and cares about his mom and cares about the
women in his life, so his sister. He has to
take great care of his sister and his future significant
other if he ever decides to do that. And I
always tell JP, like how you speak to me like
he's watching you. You know, our kids are watching us,
So you know we talk about that a lot. So
(34:08):
we just try to be the best people we can
be working.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yeah, now, but again, I mean the thing that you're saying,
Ashley is I just I was just saying this. On
another podcast, she was asking me about advice for mothering,
and I said, your children are not going to listen
to what you say. They're going to watch what you do.
And so if you want to be the good role model,
(34:31):
don't tell them what to do, show them what to do.
And you are forty two years old, and it is
amazing to me. Maybe I'm just out of touch, but
you couldn't be more right. I mean, that is exactly
and you're doing it. You're doing it.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
So they're turning out pretty good.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
So for I mean to be fair, Ashley, they have
not hit the teen years yet. We're gonna in two
more years, I'm going to ask you how things are going.
You might have a different answer, right right, Sure, you
know that's part. That's part of raising teenager. I mean,
that's their fight for independence. That's just a normal stage too.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yeah, I'm living this stage right now. It's like they're
they're independent, they're curious, they're fun, they're funny, they have
their own personalities, but they're not living like they're not
going out on their own right. It's like that's a
whole different worry that I'm not ready for.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Well, the good news is you know, you do have
a few more years before you have to worry about that.
But I actually, you know, I actually did watch your season.
It was a long time ago, but I watched it,
and I think that this is just another example you
and your your divorce, You're moving on your relationship with
(35:43):
JP and your kids. You are such a good role
model for bachelorette that what life, you know, what starts
as a reality TV show for you turned into a
real life marriage, a real life Now you're building your
chapter two, and I think that message is just as
(36:04):
important as the fairy tale we met on TV and
fell in love and got married. I love that you
are building a strong life for yourself and that you
still have a great family unit and great kids and
a great relationship with JP. That is to be commended.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
So thank you so much. You're so sweet. I really
appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Yeah, I really, I really have enjoyed chatting with you,
and I kind of wish that I had had this
conversation when I was raising my kids. But alas and
a lack, I'm now a grandmother and now I just
have to, you know, uh, hope to do better myself,
you know, do better with my grandkids. One last question,
(36:48):
I need some advice because I struggle sometimes.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Okay, let's hear it.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
How do you work because I, you know, I have
these kids and I have issues with adult kids, and
my life is somewhat complicated like many people. How do
you work on love? What's the best thing I can
do loving yourself? What advice do you give for someone
to aside from taking time for yourself? What is the
self talk?
Speaker 2 (37:12):
A good question? You know what I have to do
sometimes I have to think of myself. I have to
think of myself as someone else when I think back,
like I think of myself as my daughter a lot.
And I say, because I'm hard on myself, right, like
did I do this right? Did I do this the
(37:32):
right way? And when I look back on my life
and I think of me as someone else and all
the things that that person has accomplished, and I think
to myself, wow, like they did it, Like they overcame this,
they did this, they created this, they were so successful
with this, And then I can really just say, hey, Ashley,
good job. Like it's almost like it's foreign for me
(37:55):
to look at myself and say, wow, Ashley, you did it,
Like you did a great job, Ashley. But sometimes I
look at myself as if I was my daughter, and
that helps me kind of shift and allow myself to
give credit to myself, like you did this, You're a badass,
like good for you. And I don't know why I'm
like that, but yeah, often thinking of myself as someone
else is really helps me give the credit that I
(38:16):
probably deserve.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
I actually love that idea. I'm going to try that
because I think sometimes if you take yourself out, whether
it's pretending your daughter your daughter, or just taking yourself
out in like three faces of eve, you know, talking
to somebody else that's right there across the room, your
alter ego, whatever, saying congratulating yourself, patting yourself on the back,
(38:39):
sometimes it's the most affirming. I've never thought of it
that way.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Or sometimes I think of myself as like a young
kid because I grew up in a really small town,
like in the middle of nowhere, and I always knew
I wanted to get out, and I always knew I
wanted to I dreamed so big, like I almost had
this faith in myself that you know, was like almost unrealistic.
But you know what, when you believe in your yourself
like that, and you keep going and you like put
(39:03):
put it in your mind that you can do it,
like you can really do it.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, well that's that's and you've done it, and that
is the self talk. I love this. I love hearing
a woman your age when so many women are fighting
like we started this off, you know, going through divorces,
going through such our times. You have such a positive
outlook and I love it. I love hearing it. And
I hope that other women who are in uh trying
(39:28):
to figure out are they going to stick in part one?
Are they going to move to part two? What are
they going to do with their lives? I hope everything
you've said today gives them take care of themselves and
and and can build whatever it is they want to
build in their life. Wow, Well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Good talking to you.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
I enjoyed talking to you too, Ashley. I did I
really have a therapy session and it didn't cost either
one of us or.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Dot And we're not just checking a box, by the.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Way, way, we are not checking boxes. Well, let's do
you need some advice on how to navigate dating? In
chapter two, call us or email us. All the info
is in the show notes, follow us on socials, and
make sure to rate and review the podcast. I Do
Part two, an iHeart podcast where falling in love is
(40:19):
the main objective.
Hosts And Creators
Amy Robach
T.J. Holmes
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Kingdom of Fraud
It’s the unlikeliest of criminal partnerships: a devout polygamist from an insular Utah sect joining forces with a shadowy Armenian tycoon from LA. The result - a billion dollar fraud conspiracy. In Kingdom of Fraud, investigative reporter Michele McPhee traces the origins of the extraordinary alliance between Jacob Kingston and Levon Termendzhyan. Together, the two men trigger the largest tax investigation in American history and weave around themselves a web of dirty cops, influential political relationships and transnational money laundering. All this is set against the backdrop of Jacob Kingston’s clan – The Order. A powerful and secretive polygamist organization in Salt Lake City. To whom Jacob is desperate to prove his worth. Kingdom of Fraud is produced by Novel for iHeart Podcasts. For more from Novel, visit https://novel.audio/. You can listen to new episodes of Kingdom of Fraud completely ad-free and 1 week early with an iHeart True Crime+ subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Open your Apple Podcasts app, search for “iHeart True Crime+, and subscribe today!