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July 15, 2019 50 mins

In a worldwide exclusive, Ed sits down with Charlamagne to discuss love, life, and the making of his latest album, No.6 Collaborations Project.  

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:04):
That was where we are right now. We are in
my treehouse. This is a treehouse. You got a treehouse studio? Yeah,
this is where I made Divide and where I now
do all my sort of work. While while we're here,
let me play. Let me play some number five. Number five,
number five. That was your original Alboration project two thousands.
Oh god, I want to say ten, but it actually

(00:26):
came out first week or two thousand and eleven. So
this is before like you were popping, popping. Yeah, this
is actually what what made me pop. Do you think
I do you think that ship held up? I mean,
it's still one of It's still one of my favorite
projects I've done. I played, I played one another one

(00:47):
from the top, and that's the project that got you signed.
Number five. Yeah, well I did. I basically did five
vps before I got signs. And because I did, I did,
I was into so much stuff, much much like with

(01:08):
the project here there was. I was by so much stuff.
So I had one record I just did fully with
the band's. The next record was like what my first
album pretty much ended up being. And then I did
one that was just completely acoustic that was all written
with this one girl as a jewet, and then I
did a live DVD and a live album, but all
of those and then I did this. So this was
number five of the EPs, and it was kind of

(01:30):
like the momentum of all of those that ended up
getting me signed was it was your thought prices the
same when you made number five, like you, I'm just
gonna work with artists that are back then you can
only get the artists you could get because you wasn't
like no, no, because no, because at this at this point,
Evelyn Wildy, p Money, Jamie Mark Payne, gets Random, Impulse,
Way Wretch, Dot Rotten, they were all top of their game,

(01:50):
like and it was like I actually had to like
do a lot of convincing because I was quite you know,
it was a new new artist. But what I do
is I just turned up at like the studio with them,
and then I was just persistent. It was just like,
we have to do a song, we have to do
a song, we have to do a song, and then
made it, made it happen. We had a DJ Coward
level of annoyance. Yeah, but I think I've had that
same thing on this one. Number six, just because you

(02:11):
have to be persistent, you have to be on people,
to make it, to make it happen. So what this
one got you sign? What do you hope this project
though the number six? Do you do you hope number
six does for you? When I made this, I wasn't
I didn't want to be. It wasn't like I'm going
to get signed by making this. I made this because
it was so much fun to make and it was
all all the artists I wanted to work with, and
I made these songs that was just so proud to

(02:32):
play my friends. And it's pretty much the same with
this one. If I was like, oh, well, it's going
to help me do this and help me do this,
the fact is I like I've already achieved more than
I thought I could, so right, and now I'm at
a point where I'm just having fun. You wouldn't mother
as sharing two Kings a part Why the hell you

(02:53):
did a rock record? Because exactly that exactly. I think
people do not expect that. Any time I play that
to anyone. The first called the first instantly, people go instantly,
And I love that. I love that we'll kind of
rocky of the school meal with the heavy metal. I
think it would just be rock classic rock, classic rock.

(03:15):
I mean, we did loads of songs and loads of
different things, but we ended up on that song. And
it was purely by by by accident with having Chris
Stapleton and it just seemed the most interesting. So nobody said, hey,
we should do a rock song. It was just know
what I mean, Chris, Chris had the riff. Chris was
there and then was it and he had he played

(03:35):
it's the riff, which is and then we were like, oh,
let's let's write write a song about that. Bruno took
it away and unbeknownst to me, him and Chris had
got together and funk with it a lot. Throughout throughout
my whole career, I've never had an excuse to get
a band, and now that's an excuse to maybe tour
with the bands because I think he played. Playing that

(03:57):
live would be different level. I've seen you like a
couple of times that would be difficult for you on
stage with just the guitar. You think you can pull
it off? Oh well, I had an idea um to
do both. I think you know, people like my loop
pedal and no one's seen with with a band, and
I think you could have a show that incorporate. I
think it's time to have a show that incorporates both

(04:18):
of them personally. I want to be normal Bruno because
I feel like Y'll have had a similar payer Bruno.
But I opened up for him at iTunes Festival. Yeah,
and then I don't know, we just we just hung out.
I went and guested with him a couple of times
on tour, like we've had nights out together. It seems
like you all got an organic chemistry together. Yeah. Well,

(04:40):
I mean he's a phenomenal writer. Phenomenal writer. I mean
he's written so many others. He did to see like Green,
Fuck You and like God, I don't know. So yeah,
Bruno's just like he's just a talented writer, and he's
he's so musically talent. He's played every every instrument on
that but Jones played the bass, played the guitar. Like
he's like different level in the studio. You really respect
for write at a minute, like it's like the same

(05:01):
thing you were listening to Howard Stern yesterday, and Howard
Stern is like one of the greatest radio personalities. You've
gotta you've got to you've got to look at your
peers and the people you look up to, and you know,
I have a great respect of people that can do
things that I can't do. But I was shocked to
find out that you get no help with you're writing,
Like you write everything yourself lyrically, Yes, but I think

(05:22):
I need a lot of help with production and making songs,
you know. And there'll be songs like the A Team
and Perfects and stuff like that that I'll just go
in and I do a hundred percent of myself, Whereas
there'll be a song like go Away Girl, which is
quite a collaborative thing. I'll go in with a folk
band and then we'll all write it together with the
folk band, but I would write the lyrics for that

(05:42):
and then it would be shaped in it. Basically, do
you look You look at other eithers different when you
find out the radio stuff, only if they have nothing
to do with it. I just find I'm just kind
of need to write songs to make me feel better
about myself. You get out all your demons in music
and then it kind of clears out your head. It's
it's like exactly therapy. I saw Elton John Car You
want to like one of the best song right of

(06:05):
this generation, it's very kind of Um. I don't know.
I like writing songs, but I feel like I'm improving
day by day by going in the studio of people
like Chris Stapleton and Bruno Mars, you're just expanding your
pallet and learning new things. I think you're wrong by
just living life order you get the more experience as
you get. But you can't. You can't. You can't become

(06:26):
better unless you around people who can teach you things.
If I just worked in the studio, things would start
sounding a bit stale after a while. Which is what's
so great about doing this collaborations projects is I've worked
with so many different people and seeing how like Brunot's
process versus Travis Scott's process versus like Chances process, we'll
get well, we'll get onto it. But he literally put
the mike up and he just has the verse repeating,

(06:49):
and he's just there in in the studio and it's
kind of starts off as a mumble, and then like
words go in every now and then, and then like
the first sentence is done, but the rest of mumble,
and he'll just do it over and over and over again,
and then the verse has done the most amazing thing.
I've seen people do it line by line, but in
terms of like he's memorizing all his mumbles and the
cadence of the mumbles, and then thinking of the lines,

(07:10):
and then memorizing the first lines and then getting extinded,
like there was no point that he stopped. It was
just two hours of that and then the verse was done,
which was a completely different thing for me to see.
So I'm learning stuff like that every day and since
then have tried that, tried putting, putting. I mean I
can't do it yet, but putting songs together where you
find a melody and then you mumble the words and
keep going, keep going, and then it starts to fit.

(07:31):
So it's like learning learning stuff every day from people.
So what do you learn from Brunos as you look
at him as another amazing song writer? Was there any
tricks you've got from him and that could make you better?
We kind of have the same approach for a lot
of things. You know, you throw a lot of ideas
at the wall. His ideas are just different to mine.
When I was in there, he was like, look, the
reason we're working together is we're both trying to get
something from each other. And if you just play the

(07:53):
usual cause that you do, you might as well just
be working on your own. So what what would work
as your your melodies and lyrics over this? And then
if you have some chords that will go over this,
then my melodies and lyrics go over this, and then
that's what makes it interesting. So that chorus on the
Blow song is you know, a mixture of Chris, a

(08:13):
mixture of me and a mixture of Bruno and it
all kind of came together like that. Basically, do you
find yourself battling battling him? Oh? Yeah, massively. Yeah. Yeah.
They make the amount of arguments which just kind of like,
you know, I think at the time he might I
think he had two diamond singles at that point and
I had one, and and he and he was just like,
but I've got two diamond singles, and like they'd be

(08:34):
kind of like back and forth like that. And then
the next time I went in with him, I've got
two as well. So we've kind of had a battle
on that front for US world pop star problems. Jesus
Christ and what's the next South of the Border. Why
why did you pick those two young ladies to collab
on Network. I've always wanted to make a song with

(08:56):
Hardi Bi Cardi b just personality wise, even if even
if you just had a talking on the song, like
I've just I love her, Cherry's obsessed with her. She's
just I've got some meter review times. She's very animated,
very lovely, and so that. Yeah, I always wanted her
on a record. But I met comed In at the
m As when she was in the Fifth Harmony. We've
kind of always kept in touch and she's I don't

(09:17):
know if you've met her, but she's very very very sweet,
very very nice. It has a Latin flavor. You could
say that you know she's from Cuba. She speaks fluent
Spanish and Cardi's Dominican. Yes, And I just felt like
it was it was a good since since you and
Bruno have such a friendly competition, when you see him

(09:40):
have these records with Cardi, you know, does that make
you want to do that type of collaboration. I definitely
saw the Finesse tune and like I was like, wow, man, God,
I wish I had done that, But then I couldn't
have done it. I can't dance like that. It's just
it would have been weird, it would have been a
weird thing. So I feel like that is me and
I've like Bruno does his thing with Cardi, but then cardis,

(10:02):
like Cardi has on a lot of records, she's just
you know, I like Bruno doing really well because it
spurs me on to do really well. Hopefully if I
do well, it spurs him on. It's not like there's
never a vindictiveness in it. It's just like, oh, ship,
he's doing that. I should I should work harder and
do this, rather than a like I want to be
doing better than you. You and Cardie got similar energies
to because Cardi is authentically herself and you're authentically yourself.

(10:25):
You think that's why you grab things toward. Yeah, I mean,
I just I love how unfiltered she is. You know,
she's literally she's meade so media trained, not to be
media trained, you know, like her whole stick is she
goes on and says whatever she wants and that is
what works for her. Whereast I never had a media
training either, And I feel like I get to just

(10:45):
say what I want and she's successful because she is
who she is. She's there's no one else that can
be Cardi B. And there's going to be countless people
now that try to be just had had her success
and it's gonna be fake. Yeah. I like, I'm trying
to be fake real and you're trying to be fake authentically,
trying to be fake Curti, Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the next?
Next is the chance to referm PNB rock song that's

(11:07):
my that's all the snow. If you cross hard and
you cross me cross I made you want to get
a chance? I want to record a budget lady. You
can just tell just from the way that he his
approach was to it that his whole verse was like
this that line we were talking about yesterday. They never
say hi to me without her Like it's just like
there's just a a you can't teach that level of respect.

(11:29):
He's obviously brought up with a very very strong, loving mother,
you know, and probably with a lot of women around him,
and it's it's it's good. I'll play you what we
what we actually got the sample from, because it's a
P and B sample, it's a PMB rock sample. Yeah,
so freestyle, how is it? Anything she needs you can
call me, don't worry about it. That's my scene. That's
all me to snow if you cast herd and you

(11:51):
cast me up. PNB made it the hotline. You made
it a hot song. That's hard. You said it's hard
to right about. No, it's easier to write about heartbreak
than it is about love. But I feel like you
captured well. No, I don't know. I think it's easier
to write multiple songs about heartbreak. I mean, it's kind
of like to find the right fucking angle to write

(12:13):
a love song about, which isn't just you make me
feel this way, and it's like find it. It's about
finding different angles. Now for me, it's not about I've
done thinking out loud, I've done perfect, I've done the
the love songs about finding different angles. Now to do that,
that's a different type of love song right there. Yeah,
that's expressed in love nicely. And I think I think
my view of it is because it has so many

(12:36):
ups and downs in the song. You know, there's the
bit where it just cuts out and then just suddenly
you and your girl. I think it'd be fun. What
was your lady's reaction when she heard that songs? Finally, finally,
you didn't make a depressing song about me something we

(12:57):
can dance to. You know, she likes it. She like
say a lot she but she likes him. I think
she likes the message of it because it's quite. It's
quite makes her feel like badass as well. You know.
You you originally hear the song and it said it
sounds like it's me being like I'm going to be protective,
but actually it's people might try right now because you've
got her artier looking like a tough guy. No, because
you know I'm not. I'm not a tough guy. But

(13:18):
I've got a security guy. You know, he's grumpy, so
he's going away. What's next? The stormsy one to this
sky spreading. Yeah, you're such an intriguing artist because you
pop singer, R and B. But it seems like UK

(13:40):
rap has influenced you just as much as all that
other stuff. Yeah, well, I think I think rapp in general.
But UK rap was the first bit intro for me
into this was me doing that collaborations thing, and I've
been working with UK artists since since since then, you know,
we've kind of been friends for a very very long time,
but never really worked together. He did he remake Shape
of You for me, but never really worked together on

(14:01):
a song. Everything happens for a reason, and I feel
like this happened for a reason. What's the next next?
Is they ever tune, which I'd like to say. I
played this to Charlemagne yesterday and I played him the
ever just just before I played in the song called Evergreen,
and he was obviously blown away because she's amazing. But
then I do my verse on this song. He's like,
I can tell she's just going to come and body

(14:22):
you about the body and I was right, she bodied
you on this record. And this is why you're doing
the interview because you're honest. Mylans black, my heart is pure.
We did that here actually, really Yeah, thank you for
introducing me to Hurry Yaba. She's phenomenal and she bided

(14:42):
you on that record. Thank you. But you know that
that's right. But I think, as I said to you
when the song was playing, you should only be working
with people that you think are better than you so
it helps you grow as a person. Like when I
the song Beyondest, she definitely bodied me on that did
the song with b helling, like definitely, Like these people
are the peak of their game, you know, perfectly A

(15:04):
little debatable. That was a good back and forth. I
mean that was this is a good back and fourth too,
But you know, yeah, but I feel like, you know,
I'm not I don't want to do I don't want
to I don't want to have a feature that isn't amazing.
Do she hit a note on there? I'm like, I
don't even know what there was. It sounds like you
could have been like some effects on or something like. Yeah,
but like if like if that had you know someone

(15:25):
that it didn't complement it, I don't know. I feel
like it if you have a song that you think
is good and you put someone that you think is amazing,
it instantly makes the song incredible. So yeah, it was.
I had taken her on tour in twenty seventeen, so
we were in touch anywhere, and she came. She came
to see my Wembley show recently, and we reconnected there
and we've been on email and she sent me demos

(15:45):
of her songs that I've listened to and stuff like that.
So we've always we've always had a really cool relationship.
I got on the phone with her one day and
I was like, I have this song, sent it to her.
She sent back her verse and then and then I
was like, we have to get in and make sure
that the chorus lifts and we can sing it to
there and it sounds like we've actually been in the
same room and made it a something like that you
can't really make remotely. You have to be in the

(16:05):
same room. Sometimes I play people artists and some people
will be like, oh my god, been the best thing
the world, and some people like I just don't get it.
But there's no one that doesn't get her. It's so
easy to get. It's just like, Wow, she's incredibly talented. Yeah,
I mean people like her just let me know that.
It's just a matter of time, because you know when
when you put me on her and I pulled it
over Green on Instagram, there's people in my comments like, oh,
you're late. Oh I listened to that song a lot

(16:27):
of times. Yeah, but there's but there's but there's late,
and there's there's late, like there's you know, there's people
that would have been on Travis Scott from the very
very very beginning. You know that would be like, oh,
you're late. If you got into him at goose Bumps
or whatever. It's so I think, you know, you can't
be there from the beginning. Was she willing to be
as open as you were? You have to kind of
like push her? Yeah, well I said it. I said

(16:48):
it on on on the phone. I said, like for me,
for me, I was writing stuff that was embarrassing to me,
you know, my deepest secrets that And I said, if
you're if, if you're going to write a just make
sure that if each line is uncomfortable for you to write,
we will be like, oh gosh, you're I'll be telling
people this. That's the kind of vibe I wanted to have. It.

(17:08):
Is it healthy to think that the best of you
is another person? Though maybe not, but I'm sure you
think some of the best parts of you were your wife,
And I think it's it might it might not be healthy,
but I feel like it's a it's a human flow.
But to be like, like I'm constantly wake up every
day with Cherry and I'm just like, why the funk
are you with me? Like you could be you literally

(17:29):
be with whoever you want to. You've chosen, You've chosen me,
And like I'm saying all of the things that I
think wrong with me, but you still want to be
with me, and I just find that amazing. It doesn't
they keep you in a contom state of anxiety, like
constantly questioning whether or not no, no, because no, because
she doesn't she doesn't add fuel to the flame. I think.
I think I think if she was like, well, yeah,

(17:54):
then then you get anxiety. But I think it's quite
a sweet thing too. I think it's quite sweet to
always thing that the person you're with is out of
your league. Imagine imagine if you were like with your wife, like, yeah,
you're with me because I'm freking amazing. Like, it's like,
it's quite a sweet thing. It keeps you on your tools. Yeah,
and you don't ever take it from granted. Yeah, mate,
And that's the way. That would be the worst thing,

(18:15):
to just just be yeah, to take it for granted.
And I tour a lot. I spend a lot of
time on the road, and I think I have to
go on the road and have this belief that, you know,
with this is meant to be? What's next? Eminem fifty
cent remember the name watch in the town of Reis
wanted to make it big? Other ships. When do you

(18:37):
know a record is completely done? I don't if you know,
if it's up to me. I keep I keep tweaking it.
It's weird, like the musical side of it. If it
sounds good, it's done. Like for me, like even if
the guitar is like slightly out of tune or like
the vocals are a bit rough, Like, if it sounds good,
it's done. But when it comes to mixing, it's just
you have to listen to it and so many different speakers.

(18:57):
So we've got like two different speakers here and then
I'll usually do a mix on like just regular headphones.
I wanted to be good on so many different things,
like it could sound amazing and here, and you take
it in the car and it's all kind of so yeah,
that's when you don't notice done. But usually the deadline
comes and then someone takes and it comes up. I
feel like that record is like a childhood dreamy or
like the pub is probably New York. I had two

(19:18):
songs I always wanted to do with Eminem. I was like,
if I ever get to work with Eminem, that's two
songs I want to do. And it's ones like an
introspective storytelling one and one is something that's kind of
is more of a nod towards some of the cheek
here songs on the Marshal Mathers LP or like the
Eminem Show, and I was like, when I when I
when I work, when I work with him, because in

(19:38):
my mind, I was like, it's always going to happen.
I've just gotta wait. I'll do those two songs and
one lead to the other. So I did the River
Song with him for the revival record, and then through
that got got to know him. And then I was
able to sit down with him in Detroit and approaching
with this song and it didn't feel weird. And now
and now I feel like I've ticked my two boxes.
It feels yeah, it feels good. And you, as you
talk about people in being your private level, you started

(20:00):
to go a little Eminem on the blogs just a
little bit. It was actually before me and Cherry got married,
and I knew that we'd be married by the point
that the song came out, and so I said, watch
how the lyrics might get twisted. My wife always read
that looks better without the lipstick, and I was like,
because someone's going to hear that they're married, and I
didn't know how that would be construed. But obviously it's
already come out. The other thing I think it's funny

(20:20):
is I say I mentioned Ipswich in it, which is
a town there here, which is like Eminem would never
ever know way it's which is so to be able
to have a song with Eminem and fifty cent and
the first line is yeah, yeah, I you locked in
Mouth from the town of just just to be able
to have that, just like whenever I go to Ipswich now,

(20:41):
they'll just be someone will be like thanks man. That's
how it is in America, if you shout out a
certain community or a certain hood, they'd be like, yeo,
good lookings. Was the same thing over here. Yeah, And
I mean, you know, there's only there's only a few
musicians that have ever come out of Suffolk as a county.
The whole county let alone, shouted out Ipswich. So I
feel like it's you're get free fish and chips, in

(21:01):
which I'd never get that. They'd be like, you can
afford it? Made So I made that song in Sweden
with Max Martin, who's a who's a really big songwriter producer,
and I was writing my verse and then cheekly at
the end of it I just said, right, Max, I
want to like, I want to wish this into existence,

(21:22):
like it's um listen to my investigating would work? Yeah.
I wanted to make it big. Yeah. Yeah. So at
the end of the verse, I said, I wan't way
more than I've already got to give me a song
with Eminem and fifty cent. And I said to Max,
I was like, I'm going, I'm going to London tomorrow
to go and guest with Eminem, so I'll ask him

(21:42):
about the tune then and see if he can get
fifty cent on it. And I walked in Eminem's dressing
room and it's him in fifty cent in there, and
I was like, this, this has to be, has to
be meant to be. I think they were quite they
were quite weird about it because I was like, do
you believe in fate and was trying to make decision. Yeah,
you know, I did walk in and I was like, look,

(22:03):
I'm I'm a great believer of things. Things are meant
to be the way they're meant to be, because that like,
you can't you can't get to my stage in my
career and think that it's all down to some like
just hard work or just this like this definitely definitely
things that I was in the right place at the
right time and this and that. So it was actually
quite a cool meeting because I played him the song
and I thought we'd record it then, but he was

(22:25):
just like, leave it, leave it with me, because he
writes and writes and writes and writes and goes over um.
So we just sat and it was the day after
Kamakazi has come out, and I did no one knew
it was coming out, and then suddenly it came out
and I was like, funk, I'm seeing him tomorrow. I
get to kind of like talk to him about it. Yea,
You've got a lot of similarities in a wheeler because
I really relate to him, and we have such different backgrounds,

(22:47):
but I really relate to him, and even even even
even more so now like as a kid, I related
to him just because I felt like a bit of
an outcast. But even even now, like the way that
we've we've both stuck in our hometowns. We both we
won'th live here. We both got to a level where
it's you're so famous, you cannot go outside, and so
you have to kind of live in your little compound

(23:08):
and having a conversation with him about it and how
he tours now, and it's like I'm kind of looking
at the way he does things being like that's how
I should do it. When I'm like, because he's got
kids and stuff, and he's a very very good father
and he's there the whole time, and my greatest fear
is not raising my kids because I'm constantly on tour.
So what he does is he makes an album and
then he goes out and does like a month of touring,

(23:29):
and then he comes back home and then that's that.
That's it, And I can talk to him on a
level and he can understand where I'm coming from, and
I can understand where he's coming from. But yeah, that's
how I meanting on the same where you just described
the defective bo if you are still in your hometown
and it's like a level of self isolation, you know
what I mean. Jerry is trying to get me away
from it. She's scared that like the pub and the

(23:50):
cinema and like just just I've like made it that
my friends just can come here out rather than me
going out. So Cherry's always trying to get me to
go out more and more, but it just get to
take her out in time and let her, let her
get mobbed, and then she'll be like, you know, she's
seen it, she's seen it, and she doesn't she doesn't
obviously doesn't like it, but she's like, it's not healthy
to do this. So how do you stay at all?
What's going on? Because like your music, doesn't that sound

(24:12):
like I listened to your show every single day stuff
like that. I read the news every single day. I
like keep I keep up to date. I'm just how
to know. I lost the ability to be able to
go out to a supermarket and buy a loaf of
bread about not even that long ago, like three years ago,
and it's just it's just different now there's certain places
I can go. That's why I live here, Like people
around here treat me pretty normally, but like London, because

(24:33):
it's London such a melting pot of so many different people.
It's like you can never preempt what people are going
to be. Like. It was definitely very very fun to
work with eminem Again, if you could have told twelve
year old me I would wrap on a song with
them and them when I was older, Like, you know,
so many people say that I can't wrap, but I'm
allowed on a song with them and them a fifty
cent rappers, So like, why does it matter twelve year

(24:56):
old you was now twenty year old. It's still around
all all your as later. I've played as people of
my generation who have that, Like Shade Records was just
us when we were like fourteen, we were just obsessed
with it. Um So playing that to like my best
friends now are all excited about it, but there'll be
people from your generation. They're excited about it, and the

(25:16):
people from a completely different generation who maybe haven't. They're
not really that aware of it, but maybe they've heard
shape of View and like shape of View that will
listen to this project have a different impact on somebody
that's my age or because I'm thinking, damn fifty and
am I such an underrated combination because you start thinking
about like patiently waiting, you know what I mean, all
those songs that they've done together, and you're like, okay,

(25:38):
I like hearing. That was why I really really wanted
to get the two of them. I could have just
done that with with with them, but it was like,
I mean the hook that I wrote is so fifty cents.
It just had to it had to be. That had
to be that the one thing that's missing, the dr
dre drums. I just think it's weird to go with
someone with a complete track and just be like, please

(25:59):
just put your name to it. And I think if
Dr J does end up watching this, which who knows
if if if he will, but like, he is someone
I would love to work with, and I wouldn't feel
comfortable being like, here's a song, put your name to it.
I'd want to go in and create a song, Bible
record a lot of tool at a party. I don't

(26:20):
want to be yet, and I don't ever wear a spie?
What made you want to reach under Bible? Right now?
Bieber just got married. I just got married. That song
is about being at industry event with the woman you
love or even they put the person you love and
kind of being like this, let's just have fun ourselves.
And I was like it was actually Cherry's idea because

(26:41):
she was she was like, oh, why don't you get
Bible like perfect for this. It just fits fits it.
And you know, I have quite a good relationship with him.
I met him at thing. He came up and said, oh,
I'm a big fan, and I was like, wow, have
you heard my music? So we kept in touch. I
wrote some songs for him and with him for his project.
You know, we've just hung out a bunch of times.

(27:02):
I want to I want to work with Bieber. He's
got one of these voices that just works on anything.
He's got personality on when he thinks, were you ever
a social person? Because it seems like you're a social
would you only get antisocial industry functions? So I used
to be super social industry functions I used. My My
hobby was to go out to things and meet people
that I admired and then go out and drink with

(27:23):
them and end up but that was not my favorite
thing to do, so you know, I kind of like
ended up meeting all all my musical heroes and going
out to bars with them and having fun with them.
And then it's just now when I go to these events,
it's I just have social anxiety. I just can't. I
hate large groups of people, which I run it because
I played shows for a living, but I just don't.

(27:43):
I feel claustrophobic and I don't like being around too
many people. You think, people it's because you are sharing
a people demand too much of you. Yeah, But it
isn't even that. I don't even mind talking to people.
I have no problem with having a conversation with people.
It's just when people like film me and ship and
just kind of stare at me. This just makes me
feel weird because it makes me feel like I'm not human.

(28:04):
You coming up and having a conversation with me makes
me feel human, even if we've never met, even if
you just come up. And the thing that instantly shuts
me off is having a moment like that with someone
that's so human and so nice and at the end
being like, oh, but I can have a picture, and
it's like it kind of then puts you back down
to earth and now then you're just you're just that.
You're literally just fifteen lights on Instagram and you're that's

(28:26):
that's what you are. It makes you wonder if the
conversation we're having was even Yeah, because sometimes sometimes I
have these conversations with people in in this where was it?
I was a Marilyn Manson show and this guy just
came up to me and he literally just shook my
hand and when I like your music, man, and then
just and I was like, wow, that was like such
a short thing and such a simple thing, but that
meant so much. Yeah, So I think I get kind

(28:47):
of anxiety because you know, if I was eating in
a restaurant now, it's I would prefer to have a
private room because if I'm eating in the room with everyone,
I get people filming me eat my food while I'm
with my wife. It's just I've just find it. But
it's a bit. It's you feel, you feel like a
zoo animal, and I don't. I don't mean to be
like complaining because I have a very very cool job
and life, but if I can avoid it, I will. Yeah,

(29:08):
I wouldn't want nobody to record you eating fish and
chips because me feel like as a wable, but you
eat like one as well, Thank you very much. If
you could have the success without the fame, you would
would you take that? I think my success has happened
because I'm so recognizable. You know. It's like I make
good well I think I'll make good music, but I
make people music that people like. But you can you

(29:30):
can remember who I am, and it's something in my
own fucking fault as well. Look at all these tattoos
I've got, and then I start wearing glasses again, and
then that's just another thing to make me more more recognizable.
So I definitely don't help myself in that. What's the
next song, my brother? The next song is called anti
Social and it's the Travis Scott one. It sounds cleaner,

(29:50):
don't touch Me? What's that recond about? It sound self explainatory,
but probably what we were talking about earlier, having the
anxiety of being in the clubs. How often do you
get the more you don't want to be bothered? Every
day every day? So I live here every single day here. Yeah,
but when you go out you know that? Yeah, I
know when I like, I just have to be in
a frame of mind, like when I go to an
award show, I'm like, right today, like it's just happening,

(30:12):
Like I'm not I'm not going to get an anxiety
because this just has to happen today. I don't know
if it just creeps up on you and then it's
just there, the head load or signal to people that
you don't want to be bothered, that you're letting them know,
like do you see me out of my head? Low? Well,
that's what I'm trying to say, Yeah, that's what I'm
trying to say. Yeah, that's good, that's a good signal,
and that's like yeah, but I don't really I don't
really go out to clubs anyway. I used to when

(30:33):
you know, Cherry used to live in New York, so
I used to live there in her apartment and we
used to go out like most most nights. But it
was different than as well. Shape of You brought me
to a different level of fame, like I thought. I
thought I was like at my peak, and then suddenly
it was like a completely different world. It's the world
of your Beyonce's and your jay Z's and your Dell's
and it's just suddenly there's so much interest. You know,

(30:54):
how hard did it to protect your energy? I'm talking
about you, your your mental well being, your your mental speech.
Well I found I find, I find. I've been working
on it for the past eight years. And whether whether
it be getting rid of a phone and only answering
emails like you know, twice a day, or whether it's

(31:15):
like cutting down my friendship group to the bare bare
bare minimum just so I trust everyone or thee whether
it's living in the countryside in the middle of nowhere
and kind of closed off a bit from reality. I
think all of these little things are in place to
protect this. I think my my, my mind, and it's
all working. I think it's all working. I think if
I lived in central central London and less Less Square

(31:38):
or Mayfair or something like that, and then hanging out
with people that I'm not really sure whether they're friends
with me for who I am or who I am,
you know, you'll know, but you'll never know a dead
fields like again, especially with the new people that are
coming to your life. You'll never know of there, like
you what the like? Yeah, but I don't ever really
let people I like, I like let people in from
a from a let's like hanging out place like that.

(32:01):
You know, these these boys have come to film now.
When we hung out in the pub yesterday, like there's
there's letting in and there's there's letting again. You know
when you had their conversation with Travis about their record,
did he understand where he was coming from the hall? Yeah,
because I think he has it and he were talking
about it. I think he's very lucky with you know,
the girl that he's with. He says, that you know
that they have a similar thing where they just have

(32:21):
their little little circle, but he's with the biggest. Yeah.
But I don't know. I think in the world almost Yeah,
but I think they're all different on there, they all
want want different things. Um yeah, I don't really know.
I didn't really know. But he he struck me as
someone that had a lot of comment in common with basically,
you know, he doesn't He doesn't seem to me to
be the type of person that's chasing. I think it's

(32:43):
all it's all to better himself as an artist. What's
the next record? Next record is beautiful people, Beautiful people
featuring a lead, Well I could lead for this particular
the regge. You don't think he's a beautiful person. No,
he didn't know it. I mean a couple of reasons.

(33:05):
His voice is so crisp and warm and soulful, but
in a very weird way. He's got he's got runs
that aren't soul runs. He's got runs that are more
folk music like he kind of he kind of he's
a he's a soul singer who sings like a folk artist.
Is it's a very he sings in a very unique way,
but that song for me is warmth its. It just
feels cozy, and that sounds weird to say. His voice

(33:27):
is cozy as well, but that was like my initial thing.
He's he's definitely the same as me. He doesn't really
strike me as someone who's glitz and glam. Well, how
how unhappy were you living in earlier? Miserable? I hated it?
I hate it, yeah, And now like I like going
to l A because I go in for like three
days and I see people I love and then I'm gone.
But it's the same everywhere. Like I was miserable when

(33:48):
I lived in New York as well, because it's just
I just have to be home. It's like there's a book.
There's a book that I read called His Dark Materials,
and it's about parallel worlds and you basically this guy
that has an ife that can cut into other worlds
and his dad discovered the world before him, and his
dad ended up dying because he was away from his
world for so long and it just really drained him

(34:09):
being in this other world. And for me, it's like
being in not just England, but being in Suffolk just
keeps my Even on tour, I'll like come back here
and I'll feel revitalized and just I'm not I'm not American,
I don't belong in America. Just like you, living here,
you'd probably get sad at some point and be like,
I need to go back to Carolina or I need
to go back to jail. Get fair to him in

(34:29):
here between all the beer and affici and hips and
fair as fuck? Was there ever a moment where you
felt like you were about to conform and become one
of the beautiful people. I definitely did, though, I definitely did.
For like, yeah, for like six months, I was that.
That was it. I was in and I was hanging
out with sucking people that were on Disney shows once
once upon a time, and we were like, you know,

(34:51):
hanging out in backyards. Every day I'd meet someone new
and I'd be like, oh, this is so and so
who was on this movie? And then so and so
who did this song? And just I don't know. You
kind of you kind of get sucked up in that world,
and there's always a different event to go to. You
go to One Oak, or you go to fucking is
it beats Bellows, and there's there's always something on, and
it's just that every single day, every single day, and
it just I just felt myself getting a bit drained

(35:12):
from it. Why are they're hard for people to be
themselves in the industry? And does the industry allowed it? Yes?
It does, yeah, But you have to have success being yourself.
So it's quite easy for me to be myself because
I've been every every step of the way. Every time
I've been myself, I've had success in it. But I
think it's hard when you had a lot of success musically,
maybe doing something that you didn't leave in You know,
sometimes the success that you find isn't actually you being yourself.

(35:34):
But also I think it's the fake it till you
make your attitude of if you let people think you're successful,
then you will eventually become successful, but you have to
really put that on. I think I just think being
yourself is so powerful and I feel like a beautiful person,
but without the sounding weird about it. But because of it,
I have now a confidence in myself because because of
being myself, all of these great things have happened. So

(35:56):
now I can I can I can walk into it
an awards show addressed. However, I want and be super
confident about it because it's like I've I've done what
I because that I was to achieved without compromising. Imagine
like when you were standing next to Benthe performing perfect
great moment in Johannesburg. If you if you're paying attention
to what you should actually be paying attenital, which is
just the talent, You're like, damn, that was a great duet.
But then you go look online. Everybody's clowning you because

(36:18):
how you looked standing next to her, what you were wearing. Well, well,
I know, but I think the main argument was just
men and women's stands, standards being held that The main
thing was just like, look at this, He's allowed to
wear that and she is allowed to wear that, when
really what they should have been saying is like they've
both made a choice to do this, like Beyonce and
wear whatever the hell she wants, and I can wear
whatever the hell I want, and that's because we have

(36:39):
worked to be where we are to be able to
do that. I quite I quite liked that. I found
that quite quite funny, because it was it was ridiculous.
You look at it and you're like, yeah, actually pretty weird,
And like the skate company that I was wearing the
T shirt off. We're like really excited about it because
it was on every single blog in the world and
they were having people by the t shirt. They wanted
to send one to Beyonce, but I was like, I
don't know if she'd I always say this is the

(37:03):
kids that get meet a lot of kids and their
dads are like, they're going through a tough time at school,
and I'm like, although it's like super tough. Now, that's
the best thing that can happen for you. If you
fit in, you're just boring, you know, you're just you're
just one of many people. If you're like there was
this one kid the other day and she was like
proper out there, proper quirky, and I was like, you're

(37:23):
going to be such an interesting adult and you're going
to do such an interesting job because you're you're allowed
to be artistic and don't let anyone fucking dim your light,
like you should always shine as as as bright as that.
But it's about instilling confidence in people, and I think
me having success, I can say to her, look, I
was really weird and I've managed to have success. So
if you just carry on doing you you're you're you're

(37:45):
gonna have the same thing. Yeah, it's like wife been
in when you're born to stand out. Like that's why
I feel like all of us have our very own
unique DNA. They can't be duplicated. There's that there's no
one in the world that can do what you do,
but there is someone in the world that's going to
try and they're going to fail because they should be
doing what they do best. So the next song is
I don't want your money. With her your money, you

(38:11):
really wash your time closely. And I find myself always
always thinking like why I'm out on the road as
much as I am, And I've always come back to
the conclusion is because I love it. But you know
there's there's some something has to give, because you know,
I'm starting starting a life with Cherry and I'm not
twenty anymore. I can't go on the road for three

(38:31):
years and not not come home. Do you have guilt
because you're not around? No, because I think I think
that's I think that's unhealthy because I'm only not around
because I'm living my dream trying to achieve, and I
think it's unhealthy to feel guilty about wanting success. But
I definitely I feel like I'm missing out. I don't.
I think there's not so much guilt in that, but

(38:52):
I definitely feel like I'm missing out on a lot
of things, you know. But it wasn't just with when
I was with Cherry. It was like I missed like
every one of my friend's birthday parties or events or
New Year's or stuff and stuff like that. So I
feel like parents getting older. Yeah, well, actually I mean
saying that like that my success has allowed them to
slow down. And you know, my dad doesn't work anymore

(39:14):
and he can come out on tour. I actually have
more quality time with my dad now because it's allowed
that to happen. At what point did you realize it
wasn't about money, it was about you know, your time.
At what point did you realize that sounds a bit ridiculous.
But when you discover something like a private jet and
you're like, I can buy another day with with Cherry,

(39:36):
I could I can wait till tomorrow and fly home
at five pm. Or I can book a jet now
and I can fly home and I can gain an
entire day. When when I was like, money isn't the object,
but time, it's you know, I'd rather I'd rather spend
more time with you than save more money, basically, thin
inter ethano, because you need the money, Yeah, you'd be
able to create those more those opportunities, and that's quite

(39:57):
you know, that's a very sort of first world problems have.
I always turned down every single offer for like New
Year's Eve gigs, just because, like, I'd rather spend it
with my family and friends. And it happened very early
on in my career because I never wanted for much,
and I've i achieved a level of success financially very
early on that I was happy with. So ever since then,

(40:18):
I can now can't be bought because I don't need it,
Like but but that isn't because I've now doing a stadium,
So that was like back then doing theaters, I was like, well,
I don't fucking by playing the songs I want to play.
Why wouldn't need to be be able to be brought basically?
And you said, you know you go on the road
because you love going on the road. Yeah, I really
love it. So there ever a time where you have

(40:38):
to ask yourself what do you love more? Do I
love going on the road or do I love my wife?
Um no, because again she she understands, and she comes
out on that. I mean, she's got an office job,
so she doesn't come out as much as she would
like to. When you're so busy and you're always doing
a whole bunch of everything, sometimes it's good to just
sit down and do nothing, to watch that movie for
the hundred of time, like watch the wh War Was again,

(41:01):
And I feel like, I feel like doing nothing makes
me want to work hard again. So that's why I
feel like I need to do nothing, because it reminds
me that I do love working. Some only will get
more complicated and once we have kids. Yeah, but I
think I think kids are are different because instantly, whenever
I've spoken to parents, it's like your life ceases to
exist for you anymore. Your life is for your kids.

(41:22):
So I don't I don't think I have any problem
sacrificing things that I enjoy for them. If it was
really like, you can't tour for the next ten years,
I'd be like, well that's what I signed up for.
I've had kids, so true, you know you could. You know,
there's lots of things that people have to stop win
they have kids. Why did you pick her for that? Particularly? Record?
Because I've really I really liked her album and became
a fan from her from there. When I found out

(41:42):
she was a fan of me, I then asked her
to be on this because you can't ever assume that
people just want to do records with you. What's the
next one? Well we got, Well we got thousand nights
with Meek Mill and a boogie. It has been off
for a thousand l to me tor, you know, I've

(42:03):
been on tour for I mean it's not technically a
thousand nights but almost like seven eight nights on tour,
so it's basically New York to London's different city every day.
That all become a blur to become redundant when you
are there like that. It definitely did, Like so I
don't really remember to two thousand, Yeah it does. It
does all become a blur. But then I now bring
my best friends on on tour, so I've got four

(42:25):
best friends out with me and we enjoy it all
together now, so it's not really a blur because we
remember going to nice dinners and then we go out
to nice things and then go back to my hotel
and and like have a bottle of wine. Why did
you grab Meek an a bookie for that record, because
I don't think I don't think they can relate yet
to that level of touring. Well. For me, originally I
had a different beat. I had a different beat originally,

(42:46):
and when I've made the beat, it was and Meek
actually said it when I played it to him, he
was like, you know my tempo, and for me, it
just sounded like a Meek song. It just sounded like
a Meek song. I always try and go too verses.
I always trying to go for two, like twenty four
bars and it's done sixteen butters and it just seems
too short. And I just bought a hoodie season and
I thought I'd reached out to him. What's the next record?

(43:08):
The next record is put It puts It All on
Me with elam A. You like this one, like the Yeah,
you're frank when you say it's hard to make records
about love, bro, that's another love record right there. And
I've made so many records though for this project, so
many Obviously, now you're hearing the end products and you're like, oh,

(43:30):
like it must be easy to write love songs. But
I've write so many songs and then I just picked
the best ones, so then they end up being the
good ones, the good the good love songs. But there
I like the up Temple Love record, like everything don't
have to be thinking out loud. I'm I'm meThe Man
and Mary J. Blige. All I need remix. That's what
me and my wife dance through. It all went, and
you know what I'm saying, that's what's good to have
those Up Temple Love records. Why did you Why did

(43:52):
you choose Elmy for that one? Well, I, like the
rest of the world heard boot up and then I
found out she's from mitchell in so of London, which
blew my mind because I just didn't know she because
like it's so it's so rare one for English people
to have success in America, but two for people to
have English people to have success in America before England.
She's big there before, but before here. So I was

(44:14):
intrigued by her anyway, but someone and knew had a
contact for her. So when when we were making that song,
I remember we were saying, what girl, what girl? Do
we know that we could we could go on this
And me and Fred who made the tune, we're both
like we should get lm A. And I was like,
I know someone that knows her. So we we had
that wrapped up I think like within two days, because
usually you do the song and then you have to

(44:34):
get in touch with the artist and then it's finding
a day to do a studio. We sent it off
to lm A the day that we wrote it, and
then I think she'd recorded her bits two days later.
I didn't even know she was from the UK till
I heard her album because in between she's talking and
you hear the accident, so I was like, oh, she's
from the UK. I on't even realize that. Yes, And
she said, men, she's super sweet, but she I just

(44:54):
didn't expect her to be English. She's got the same
the same kind of thing that I was saying about colladass.
There's a way that she sings and the riffs that
she she she does she'll go hard and soft and
hard and soft in in her vocal tones. It's a
kind of operatic kind of I don't know if she's
classically trained or not, but it's very different way of singing.

(45:16):
When you do a collad with somebody like Lameda, you
feel the need to even in the future canstily say hey,
I wrote this for you just to keep the London thing. Yeah,
I don't. I mean, like as I said yesterday, I
mean like it depends on timings and stuff. But if
anyone gave me their time to work on this, like
I'm whether whether it just be any small favor in

(45:37):
the future, I'm I'm always I'm always going to be
there to do to do something or after this record,
I'm going to go away for a bit. So I
don't think we're going to be releasing anything like that.
But yeah, I just really appreciate that people are giving
me their time. You know. So this is feels with
Young Thug and Jay Hussy. You're not doing these records

(46:00):
because you know of who's hat. You're doing these records
because you actually like these people. So what what did
you like about Young Dog? I mean I felt I
first heard him when he did the Rich Gang did
a lot of ship just a little there's a stuff,
and I didn't I didn't really get it. And then
it was more I think it was that that that
Jeffrey project that really made me understand it. And he's

(46:23):
got he's got a tone that is sometimes you don't
understand what he's saying, but it kind of like the
way that he does it is just musical. So I
was always very intrigued to work with him. Houses someone
I've always wanted to work with. There's not really anyone
like him in the UK industry, so in his own lane.
The worst thing I find is when you have blatantly

(46:44):
like label things where it is just they leave like
a six scene at the end and like um, and
I never wanted to do that with House. I feel like,
if you're going to do a song with House, it
needs to fit in. I got his number and then
my face timing. But usually every single person I've worked with,
I've never not some sort of relationship with with with
with them, So I hope I get to meet singles.

(47:11):
I would think that's a difficult record to write because
that's about heartbreak. Yeah, like you would love That was
written from imagining what it would like now now it's
all scenarios rather rather than like things that have actually
happened in terms of like writing writing breakup songs. And
I need you to dismiss those negative thoughts out in mind. Okay,
I'm gonna tepe a person like whatever I want to happen.

(47:31):
I constantly think about the things I don't want to happen.
I don't think about at all. Are same? I know.
My job is writing songs, so sometimes you just have
to write songs, you know, Like people who write murder
mystery books don't want to get murdered in their sleep.
They're just they write books about murder. So that's not
necessarily about you. No, No, that's that that's like, if
it were to happen, that would be my reaction, And

(47:54):
it's for whoever needs it, because somebody out there probably
going through that. There's so many people that make songs
that aren't necessarily reflecting the situation that they're in at
that time. Trust me. But we've all but we've all
felt that. Yeah. I listened to a lot of hip up. Okay,
it's a lot of people saying something that they are
not really living. Yes, I get it. It's really talling
at the road. Um, screw X, I mean I've I've

(48:18):
I've worked with him before. We actually have a great
fucking story about screw X. He came to Chicago to
work on track. Afterwards, he was like, let's go out
to the bar, so just me and him, and my
touring crew went went out this bar and he was like, funk, man,
this this bar sucks. Like the music, like the music
is just not It was like they were I don't

(48:38):
know what was happening, and he was just like, I
got my laptop in my back stual, I just do
a set. They were like okay, And so screw Legs
got up in this like bar in the middle of
nowhere in Chicago and just did a three hour set
for anyone in the bar. And they just locked the
doors and just kept everyone and it was amazing time.

(49:01):
How did you know Dave was gonna be good for
this record? Because everything I've heard from Dame that you
let me here because you put me on the day
was like deep. Well, I gave him. I gave him
a deep song. I gave him the choicer too, because
I really really wants to get him on the project.
So I did to two songs and he chose that one.
But I think, you know, he's I think it's good
to have him on something a little bit different because
he does a lot of deep stuff for his stuff.

(49:23):
Y'are Colabory no more than just music store? Right? Yeah,
we did a love music racism interview. I like that
whole concept of the love love music he reef, you know,
with both from two totally different parts of England and
from totally different backgrounds and coming together and just talking.
It's good to show how it can be completely normal. Yeah,

(49:44):
I met him and there's an a watch over here
called the Ivan Novellos, and they have like three main awards,
like there's best Song, most played Song, and then Songwriter
of the Year and that's and and that's it, and
he I won song oright the here and he won
Best Song um and that. They're like really difficult with it.
There's only like three of them. Yea, They're really difficult
to win. So I met I met him there and

(50:06):
we kind of swapped emails and we've just been back
and forth. I kind of like talking to I say,
up and coming people, but I love I love the
kind of new wave coming through and it was one
of those things that I'm putting the projects together. It
would just feel like a bit of a shame not
to have him on it, so I'm glad we could
make it work. The other artists is a guy from
Argentina that I've recently become a fan of called Paolo

(50:26):
longer we got him on, really like him. Listen Man
number six, Thank you for having me wrong. Nice one.
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