Fight to Be Irrelevant: Breaking Free from Social Media’s Grip | Madi & Grant Trout

What does it really mean to step back from the spotlight and pursue a life of presence? Ben Higgins sits down with Grant Troutt and Madi Troutt for a candid conversation about intentional living, fighting for “irrelevance,” and unplugging from social media in today’s world. Hear their honest struggles, why they chose to be rooted locally, and how faith, accountability, and humility shape their story. The trio explores the impact of ego, staying grounded amid opportunity, parenting while growing spiritually, and how disappointment can lead to deeper faith. Plus: vulnerability, Bible engagement, and practical advice for building authentic community.

TIMESTAMPS
00:01 Living With Intentional Presence
01:29 Stepping Back From Social Media
02:01 Rest, Prayer, and “Fighting Irrelevance”
03:37 The Personal Impact of Logging Off
05:03 Social Media and Career Choices
06:15 Wrestling With Fear of Missing Out
09:00 College, Anxiety, and Comparison
11:05 Faith, Ego, and Self-Promotion
13:25 Rediscovering Authentic Christianity
15:32 Purity, Privacy, and Decision-Making
17:08 Set Apart Yet Engaged
19:31 Redefining “Of the World”
21:05 Personal Transformation Stories
25:22 Joy, Freedom, and Fulfillment
32:24 Navigating Ambition and Purpose
36:35 Letting Go of Limitations on God
42:07 Disappointment, Humility, and Stewardship
46:54 Life Updates and Local Roots
52:09 Wrestling With the Bible’s Role

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, you got off social media first, and I just
watched like Grant be able to be so present. You
go around and new mask college students. I know that
this has been done, but if you go around and
you mask college students, like, how has social media been
for you? Well, for most of them, it's led to anxiety, depression, suicidal, ideation, comparison,
body dysmorphia, eating disorders, so many things. When we're reading

(00:23):
through scripture and with what God is speaking to us,
it's like, Okay, we need to take a step back
from all of these like glamorous things where you can
kind of have like God and the world, and you
can be liked by the world, and you can also
have like all the blessings quote unquote from God. We
just want to like take a step back as.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
The church, I would just speak generally, we've so tried
to be as like the world as we can.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Welcome to if you can hear me, a space where
culture meets the soul.

Speaker 4 (00:51):
I'm Ben Higgins.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
You may know me from the Bachelor, and you may
know my guests from culture, Headlines and Entertainment. This podcast
is about going beyond on the surface into something deeper.
Each week we sit down for open conversations about identity, faith,
and the realities underneath it all. At its heart, this
podcast is about creating space for people to slow down

(01:14):
and speak freely. Not polished interviews or perfect answers, just
real discussions that are unfiltered.

Speaker 4 (01:20):
I invite you to lean in and enjoy the conversation.
Maddie and Grant, thanks for joining us.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
Great to be here, here for having us. This feels right.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
It feels right, doesn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
It does right.

Speaker 4 (01:34):
It's it's gonna be a lot of fun to talk
to the two.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Of you together.

Speaker 4 (01:36):
I have a whole array of things and we're going
to dive in. If you've if you've listened into these shows,
they can go a bunch of different directions.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
I love it.

Speaker 4 (01:46):
I love that, and all I ask for is some
type of vulnerability. I know you talk for a living
and so sometimes it's it feels like repetitive, But for
this group, I think a little bit of vulnerability goes
a long way. I want to start though. The two
of you are very busy, but you've made some very
strategic decisions to I think from my perspective, I always

(02:11):
like to be told I'm wrong. You've made some like
very intentional choices to also be more present than maybe
two years ago. I'd love for you to dive into
that to get things started.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah. Man, can I start by saying I love the
tat on the ring finger. I've thought about it multiple times.
Worth it? How did it feel?

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (02:31):
It doesn't hurt. The whole reason is because I don't
want to be playing basketball or a sport and to
lose that finger. It's precious to me.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. I've dinged
up the ring enough and I'm like, should I get
the tato? Yeah? You start, I mean what tell us
maybe a little bit about this season?

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah? I mean, well you got off social media first,
and I just watched like Grant be able to be
so present and for me, I had complained for so long,
like okay, social media is just like I constantly feel
this pressure. I constantly feel like I can't do enough.
I'm constantly having to think about what can I capture

(03:14):
to post? And I just remember, like we had this
moment agree. I just looked at me and he's like, well,
you don't have to do it, like you know, you
can delete social media and so just through I think
a lot of prayer. My word for the year was rest,
and we really wanted to prioritize being plugged in locally,
being plugged into our local church, focusing on our family

(03:36):
and our home life, hosting more things within our home.
And then I read this book called In the Name
of Jesus by Henry Now and it was such a powerful,
profound book. Is a very like short book, but it's
probably one of the only books I've ever read that
by the end of it, I mean, I'm crying, I'm
on my knees, repenting and just asking God for forgiveness

(04:00):
in so many areas where I had been striving and
wanting to be seen and wanting to be enough in
the eyes of other people, and I just had this
moment of just asking the Lord for forgiveness and just
really felt this phrase he put on my heart that
I got when I was reading the book, which was
fight to be Irrelevant, And I just I felt like,

(04:22):
in the time that we're living in today, everyone's fighting
to be relevant. Everyone wants to be seen, everyone wants
to be popular, everyone wants to blow up. And I
just felt like God laid on my heart like fight
to be irrelevant, you know, fight to get into spaces
where you're not seeing. Fight to do things that no
one is applauding you or reposting you or seeing you,

(04:43):
but you're just loving, serving, giving, you know, in the private.
And so that's really you know, my heart this year
is just like fight to be irrelevant, fight to be present.
That's your word for the year right present. So yeah,
those are kind of just like our focuses, which is
there aything wants to.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Be to no I mean, bit, it's different for you
or Maddie to get off so social media to me,
and so I think like I started it and I'm
ten months in right now, which is just like dude,
no x no ig, and I feel two things. I
feel super present and I feel really uninformed and I
do feel out of it. And I don't think my

(05:21):
take is like everyone should get off. I just think
if the Lord would ask you to get off, would
you be willing to lay it down? And I sensed
that for a year. I was twenty nine. I turned
thirty a month ago, we both did, and I just
said the Lord be like, hey, grant give me twenty nine,
like lay it down, like stop trying to be seen,
and there's in Matthew six it just talks about in

(05:42):
the secret place, there's reward, and we really sense that
when having a baby, just hey, I don't want to
get caught up in doing things to be seen or
for my name, like the Lord. I want this to
be about you. And so that was probably the initial nudge.
And then we both decided not to travel or speak
it and to be local. And I think that was
having a baby really made that clear, Like we just

(06:05):
want to be a family that's home, that's local, and yeah,
I would say that's it.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
Yeah, you know a lot of this. I don't think
anybody out there is going to claim that I am
an influencer. I gave that up many years ago based
on a lack of skill set and a lack of
I think desire. Yeah, but you know, I hear you
both say this, and I'm like, yeah, I mean I

(06:32):
think most people would agree. I was actually just having
this conversation with somebody that makes a living influencing or
sharing and they're great at it, and I was explaining
to them that it's not never been something that brought
me joy, but still, when there's an opportunity for a
job or a show like this that is one of

(06:52):
the first things people look at is, you know, are
you active? Is there kind of in a lot of ways,
like a free platform to you know, show about whatever
project you're working on. Yeah, And so that's the part
to me personally that I say, I cannot just get
rid of it because these opportunities are sometimes at this

(07:12):
point few and far between. I need to have a presence.
And so for you too, has that been scary? I mean,
this is a huge shift, and I do think people
are in different places in life and some can do this,
some can't. Some you know, have to kind of make
the grind go. But for you too, has it been
a scary shift? And then on the on the counter

(07:34):
of that, what have you learned so far?

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, I'll start, everyone is in a much different place
if they can get off or can't get off. We
ran a place where we were like we can and
even because we've heard a lot of people be like
this is how I make my income. And I think
there's two sides of that. One side could be a
lack of trust in God right once. One side is
like I have to make it work for myself. The

(08:00):
other side is is there a way for you to
get off and someone helps run it for you and
helps run it and just like is on it for you.
I think we could talk to two different people, the
Christian space or the non Christian space, two different conversations.
I think what we've seen is that in a world
of self promotion and a world of look at me,

(08:21):
we know that God is the promoter. We know that
the Lord lifts up those that humble themselves and lower themselves.
And I just think it's really anti the culture right
now to go low and say God will lift me
up and do time. I think there's two different ways
to gain the world and lose your soul. I think
without Christ, you can gain the whole world and your

(08:42):
soul is empty. I think with Jesus, there's now a
group of Christians that have Christ and are trying to
gain the world, and in that pursuit, their soul is empty.
It's lacking. And I think it's because we're just trying
to be seen, Like we just want people to go God,
I want to build your kingdom, but make sure my
name's on it and uh, and so for us, I

(09:02):
think it was the first step of Lord, let me
make sure that my heart is completely pure in this process.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, totally. And I and I would say again to
this point of like, this isn't a message we're going
around being like everyone should need social media. This was
a decision that you know, we made personally, and a
lot of it was because I had put it off
for so long. I think if you go around and
you ask college students, I know that this has been done.
But if you go around and you ask college students, like,

(09:30):
how has social media been for you? Well, for most
of them, it's led to anxiety, depression, suicidal, ideation, comparison,
body dysmorphia, eating disorders, so many things, less poorn, all
kinds of things. But yet they are not willing to
get off because of FOMO because they feel like if
I get off, and I'm not going to see what
all my friends are doing, and they have this like
fear of missing out. But if you were to be like, hey,

(09:54):
if everyone got if everyone deleted social media, would you
get off? They're like, oh, absolutely, one hundred percent. My
life was so much better. And I think that that's
because we all know deep down that we're trying to
find this like security, this satisfaction, this feeling of wanting
to be known and loved through this social media, through
social media, through our phones, and we're spending hours and

(10:14):
hours and hours a day on our phones versus going outside,
spending time with people, you know, like doing things in
the present life and so much. I mean, I'll let
you share the grant. Listen to this podcast. Matthew McConaughey
dropped this like bar on social media and just like
the world we're living in today that honestly we've gone
back to a few times, but it is it's just

(10:36):
been such a gift to us. Like everyone's like, oh
my goodness, what a sacrifice you know, you guys have
made of getting off social media, and it's like, no, really,
this has been the biggest blessing. And we just feel
we're just so grateful that we're just being able to
be so present, serve at our church, like have a
community group, be present with our daughter, and you know,
and that's been the best. And so again, like it's

(10:58):
not for everyone, but I think if it is an
idle for you, I think if it creates a distraction
for you, I think if it causes you to spend
more time on your phone than with people or with
God or outside, then those are things to really wrestle with.
Of like, if I have a really hard time laying
it down, then maybe that's something you need to lay down.

Speaker 4 (11:20):
The uh. I want to stay in this lane for
a second because I do want to hear you both
shared some things there that I think are that I
find extremely wise. And it feels like you obviously have
had these conversations either internally amongst yourself and probably with
the divine And I don't want to get too critical,

(11:41):
but I do want to confront something that I think
I hear more often in the space that I live, is,
you know, with social media or with the current times
that we're in, ego is a massive obstacle to a
lot of people of faith and not of faith. Is
we are pursuing, you know, whatever that shiny thing is
in front of us. You live in a town that

(12:03):
someday I will be living it. So I have no
criticism for the area of the country that you live.
I love your area. But you are surrounded and I
think most of the people in the United States today
would kind of draw a circle around you know, Central
Tennessee and say you are surrounded in the Christian belt
of the world, and also in a belt where a

(12:24):
lot of things are happening and there's a lot of
money to be made. And I say all this is say,
how do you and I guess you too personally, But
then also what have you learned from the friend group
around you by living there where there is the balance
between monetizing in the name of Jesus creating the kingdom,
but making sure your name is on it and all.

(12:46):
But and then what is the flip side of that
where you've seen people do this in a way that
is humble, that is lacking that ego, that is doing
it for a purpose of spreading the good news of
Jesus to all who encounter it. Because here's here's my
criticism from an outside perspective. It's really hard for me

(13:07):
to see. It's really hard for me to watch all
these Christian influencer videos. It's it's really difficult for me
to process. But I want to know from your perspective,
what have you been good?

Speaker 2 (13:18):
A bad? Yeah, man, it's exactly what you what you're feeling,
And I think a lot of people are feeling. Have
we gotten this a little bit wrong? Have we gone
off a little bit to where this has become about
me and not just the Lord. I feel like God
is purifying his people right now. We've seen multiple people
that we've probably respected for a long time fall and

(13:41):
I think just the wisdom around us and Maddie nine
our quiet time is like, Lord, I want to finish well?
What does it look like to finish well? And so
I think there's been a lot of contemplation on our minds, going, Lord,
what what actually honors you? Because I think this honors you.

Speaker 5 (13:59):
But a lot of it could probably just be because
it's feeling good, because I'm getting people to respond to
me or the other it's like, or I'm getting hate,
which we know we all know about.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
And so we wanted to make a wise decision to
go God. For this year at least, We're going to
lay this down and just see if this had any
hold on our hearts. I think what you would see
a lot around Nashville is is people that are going,
I want the real thing again. I feel like the
older generation taught us that, like Christianity could be cool

(14:32):
and you can be a popular figure. And I feel
like right now gen Z is going, I want the
real thing. And then it's the difference between anointing and gifting.
I feel like it's getting really clear where there's a
lot of gifted people that can say a lot of
cool one liners, and people are sick of one liners.
I don't want to be someone that can make you
walk away and go, dude, that was really good. I

(14:53):
want to speak and you know it's from the secret
place with God so that when I say it, it
actually changes what you how you live. And that was
our big thing where it's like Grant and Maddie, are
we going to just live the life everyone thinks we
should live, write a book, speak a little bit, or
when we have our very clear moments with God and

(15:14):
we know that he cares about the orphan and the widow,
he cares about those that are hungry. You know, when
you have those very clear moments with God where you're like,
I know that's the life you're calling me to live,
and then you get swept back up into like, well,
I've got to speak at this thing and I've got
to do that. We were like, we don't want to
get swept up in our yeses and end up living

(15:34):
the life that Jesus was like, that's not really what
I talked about, and if you were to summarize all
the red letters in the Bible, all of what Jesus said,
I don't think the end result is go and be
as big as you can be and make as many
people follow you as you tell them about me. That
is not the summary. The summary is die, wash feet,

(15:56):
pick up your cross, follow me. And I just want
to make sure that if we're going to talk about it,
we got to be about it. And with all these
people saying I hate social media, it's hurting me. I
think Mattie and I just wanted to take one step
to influence maybe one person to go, what if we did,
what if he at least took for a year and went,
let's just read this, get off that and see what

(16:18):
happens in our hearts.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
Totally Yeah. I think so much of it comes back
to the secret place and just like your prayer life
and your time alone with God because for us, again,
like it's different for everybody, and everyone has their own
relationship with God, and I think for us it's like, man,
we when we're reading through scripture and with what God
is speaking to us, it's like, Okay, we need to

(16:40):
take a step back from all of these like glamorous
things where you can kind of have like God and
the world, and you can be liked by the world,
and you can also have like all the blessings quote
unquote from God. We just want to like take a
step back and be like God. We want to come
back to this place where it's just like we're doing
these things out of like purity and privacy and like

(17:03):
make sure that our heart is pure and that we're
doing this for the right reasons. And then if you
call us to step back into that, we will. If
you call us to stay off of it forever, we will.
And I think that's the life of every single person
that says I commit to following Jesus, Like you have
to make sure it's your following Jesus and not following
your flesh and what you want for your life. Like

(17:24):
if you say, let God's will be done, then we
have to make sure that we're submitting ourselves to the
word of God. We have to make sure that we're
surrounding ourselves with the people of God, letting them speak
into our life. And we have to make sure that
we're humbling ourselves before Him every single day saying God,
would you speak to me, am I on the path
that you're calling me to and he will speak if
we listen. But then we have to be obedient enough

(17:44):
to take that step in whatever direction he's calling us to,
Like we want to be people that It's like if
he calls us to pack up everything and go to India,
sell everything, go to India tomorrow, like we'll do that.
If he calls us to go to d C, if
he calls us to get back on social media, if
he calls us to delete it forever, like we just
want to be so like this world is not our home.
We're not living for ourselves. It's all about God and

(18:04):
it's all about maternal kingdom. That's just how we want
to live our life and how we want to raise
our kids.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
I want to add this last is like I do
think that's the whole key. Is like if you're of
the world, if you're a friend of the world, it
says you're an enemy of God. And I just didn't
want to blur the lines too much of trying to
be like the world to win some for Jesus. And
I think that's the conviction that I felt was like, man,

(18:31):
we've as the church. I would just speak generally, We've
so tried to be as like the world as we
can to show them that we're not weird Christians so
that maybe they'll come to church. And I think that's
an uninspiring, ineffective way to try and show people that
we believe in Jesus. That changes everything, because a lot

(18:53):
of us just look like the world. We don't look
any different. But I do think there's a standard of
holiness that you can live that people go I may
not even agree, but you believe that. I respect that you.
You believe that wholeheartedly. So that's kind of some things
we've learned.

Speaker 4 (19:10):
The I think I shared this. I don't know if
I shared it with you guys or not, but years ago,
when I was getting off the show, one of my
closest buddies told me, he said, Hey, this is never
meant to be about you. Your name was never meant
to be famous. And it's funny how those small words
changed everything. Now, Wow, I'm a little bit of a

(19:32):
heretic because obviously I'm sitting here on a podcast today
and you know, making money on social media myself. But
it has always been the soul prayer in pursuit has
been this is not to be about me and I
and I only say that to say I would have
never come up with that on my own. I had
to take the accountability. It's why I believe so strongly

(19:54):
in accountability from close people around us. I had to
listen to wise voices. I had to get back into
prayer and scripture to make sure that my intentions were
most of the time correct, and then also ask for
forgiveness when they weren't. Uh, you guys kind of transitioned
it perfectly. And granted, I want to dive in a

(20:14):
little bit. I think it's healthy to dive in a
little bit to something you said. You know, today the
conversation is, hey, let's not be of the world. That's
a that's a very common phrase being used, and I
think if it's distorted, people hear that and say we
have like different groups, right, like we are the Christians,

(20:39):
everybody else is the enemies. And I want to expand
on that thought a little bit what you mean by
not being of the world, because you know, Scripture also
speaks about the freedom in Christ as we move and
breathe and have our being here on earth, like this
is a this is creation of God. This is something
to admire and the beauty that God made and the

(21:00):
people that if God have surrounded us with. Yeah, and
so I want to dig in a little bit to
your like when you hear that, when the two of
you say that, what do you mean by it?

Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, there's two types. I heard this and I thought
it was really good. There's only two types of people
that anyone will ever see today. So Ben, when you
walk out of your house, there's only two types of people,
God's people or God's passion. And so when we think
about groups, I want to the pushing back would be,
it's not the Christians and our enemies. It's the Christians
and our brothers and sisters. It's the Christians and those

(21:32):
that need to hear about the good news of the
Gospel of Jesus Christ. So when we say of the world,
my story is back in twenty eighteen, I was drinking, smoking,
popping pills, lost in the sauce bro I went to church,
but I had no relationship with Jesus. I'm sure a
lot of people try to tell me, but I was like,
I'm good, and I found myself in this place where

(21:55):
I was like I'm not good and I'm not happy.
And I remember banging on an urgent care door at
two am because I thought I was overdosing, and I
prayed this prayer and I just said, God, if you're real,
will you please show me in the years to come.
He showed me, and bro he changed everything about my life.
And so now my whole life is to tell people

(22:17):
about this Jesus that saved to me. I believe He's
the way, the truth, and the life. And so when
we talk about not being of the world, what actually
happens is what Paul describes is metamorphosis. So he says,
if anyone's in Christ, he's a new creation. So when
you believe in Jesus Christ, you become a new creation.
That word is actually the word metamorphosis, which is the

(22:39):
depiction of a caterpillar to a butterfly. I remember taking
a walk around my parents' backyard and I saw this
monarch butterfly and I had this whole moment where I
felt like the Lord asked me, Grant, what would you
think seeing a butterfly talk to a caterpillar? What would
that combo be like? And then I just in my

(23:00):
mind thinking, Grant, what if you saw a monarch butterfly
dragging itself in the mud like it used to when
it was a caterpillar, you'd be like, no, bro, fly,
like you don't, that's not you anymore. And what I
think about when you come to know Christ, you actually
have this metamorphosis where you were once a caterpillar, now
you're a butterfly. And in that conversation, what if the

(23:21):
caterpillar said, Bro, why don't you come down here anymore?
You too Christian for us? Now? You too good? Why
aren't you in the mud with this anymore? You? Oh,
you're some You're too good. And I think the butterfly
would go, bro, No, I'm just new. I can fly now.
Now I look down at what I used to walk
in and I'm like, that's not who I am. And
so it's not that I'm better than I'm in some group.

(23:44):
It's that I have become new, made new. And now
I want to tell you that that's for you too.
And so it's not I figured it out, you need
to come figure it out. It's Jesus saved me. Let
me tell you about the one that can change everything
about you. So good.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah, I think we've just seen like freedom is not
in doing whatever you want to do, Like true freedom
is found when you find Jesus, as John eight thirty
two says, then you will know the truth, and the
truth will set you free. And as Grant just quoted
John fourteen six, Jesus says, I am the Way, the Truth,
and the Life. So when you find Jesus, he will
set you free. And so we've just seen, you know,

(24:21):
trying to find freedom in the world, trying to find
truth in the world, trying to find life in the world,
and all it does is leave us empty and unsatisfied
and more confused than before. But Jesus really has changed everything.
And it's not like Grant's saying that we see ourselves
better or that we can't. I think it's just you
live with such a different mindset of Like, no, I
have been set free, so I'm not going to go

(24:42):
back to the things that I used to be bound by.
But because I'm free, I'm not just free from something,
I'm free for something. I want to bring this freedom
to a lot of people that are broken and confused
and lost and that need to know the same answer
to true life and true freedom. And so you know,
our heart and mission is to take that to everyone

(25:04):
that we see. And that's the you know, the coffee
shop person, that's the stranger we're passing by, that's the
restaurant server, that's the you know, that's everybody that's on stages,
that's on whatever it may be. But just taking this
message of good news to everybody that you see. And
and God has such a heart for the world. That's
why it says in John three sixteen, for God so

(25:25):
loved the world that he gave his one and only son,
that whoever would believe in him will not perish but
have everlasting life. I think what's so cool is that
people like people want to say Christianity is so exclusive,
but it's the most inclusive religion of all time. It's
the most inclusive, beautiful thing of anything out there, because
Jesus is saying, you don't have to work your way
to me. I came to you, I laid down my

(25:48):
life for you so that in me you could have life.
And the invitation is for everyone, but it is up
to us to receive it. He's not going to force
it on us. He's going to give us the option
because he's a loving God. But it's to us to
receive it, accept it, and walk it out. And so
we are to be set apart from the world, but
we're also called to love the world just as gotten
up the world.

Speaker 4 (26:09):
And I think that's such an important pieces. When you
say being set apart from the world, you know, an
acts it talks about this conversation that they're having in
the courts about circumcision, like do we need to circumcise
these people for them to be a part of like
the you know, the way or not? And they come
up with this idea. They're like, why do we make

(26:30):
this harder? Like, let's not make it harder on them.
Let's not go to them and say, hey, you love
Jesus now also walk into this whole arena and they're like, WHOA, Like.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
I did an agree to this?

Speaker 4 (26:42):
And and so I think there's like and I think
this is such an interesting moment we're in where neither
of you are saying, like there is a lack of
enjoyment in the life that you're living today. Right, you
have a child, you're married, you're in the love, you
love sports, you're love to get outside. You talk about

(27:04):
all these things that you've intentionally chosen to do here
in the year of your life. That's not what you're saying.
And I think sometimes people hear this of being set
apart from the world and that we're not of the world,
and they think, Okay, I'm going to be a Christian
and I have to take the fifty lashes to the
back every day and walk around in like in like somberness.

(27:25):
That's not what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, no, no, man. I recently spoke on John two
and it's about Jesus's first miracle was at the wedding
where he made the water into wine, and I just, man,
on the surface level, there's a much deeper meaning. But
on the surface level is Jesus's first miracle was to
make a party much more fun. And I just since

(27:48):
the Lord speak to me, grant if you're not having fun,
I don't know who you're following. And I really want
to speak to someone listening that thinks if I'm going
to follow Jesus, that's my life of happiness, I'll give
it up. And what we would say is, I don't
think we've ever been more happy and more joyful, because man,
everything you desire it's actually just a counterfeit of the

(28:09):
true desire you were made for. And so the happiness
I used to feel in the club, right bottle girl,
cool moment, bro, it's a little counterfeit of what Jesus offers,
which is eternal joy. And I didn't believe that until
it supernaturally hit my heart. You can't figure that out,
you can't think hard enough and go yeah, I guess

(28:32):
if I really trust, it has to be the supernatural
moment where you yield your life to him. You can't
attain salvation, you submit and surrender into it. And that
took me a long time. Man. I sat in a
lot of church services thinking, and then I finally heard
this quote. He's not looking to rip you off. He's
looking to set you free. And that's what I've found

(28:53):
to be true. Is I thought, Okay, God, if I
follow you, here's my alcohol, here's my jewel, here's my
and really, He's like, yeah, and guess what, Here's eternal
life and eternal joy. The trade off isn't even close.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
Man, No, it's so good. And Ecclesiastes three eleven says
that God has put eternity on every man's heart and
saw him sixteen eleven says that and him are what
is it pleasures everlasting pleasures of joy, fullness of joy,
And I just I think about that, and I'm like, man,
it's what Grant's saying that in this world we can
find all of these temporary happiness, like these things that

(29:26):
will satisfy for a second, but ultimately is going to
lead to more searching, more striving, more longing, never fulfilled,
never enough, always confused always. But it's like in Jesus,
not only do you have eternal life in heaven secured
like your inheritance is forever secured, but here on earth
there is a deep joy, a deep hope, a deep

(29:48):
peace that cannot be shaken, that cannot be stolen no
matter what comes. Like, if you think about it, we
just live in such a corrupt, crazy, chaotic world that
it's like you turn on the news, you turn on
social media, immediately, you're gonna get hit with so much fear,
so much comparison, so much drama, so much like chaos, division, hatred, violence.
I mean, you're just gonna see it everywhere and it's

(30:09):
going to create like no matter who you are, Like,
there's gonna be those thoughts. But when you have Jesus
as an anchor, and you know that this isn't your home.
There is a joy that cannot be stolen from you.
And I think about this passage in Matthew seven that
talks about a wise man and a foolish man, and
a wise man built his house on the rock and
a foolish man built his house on the sand, and

(30:30):
it says that in both scenarios, storms came, and that's
just the reality of life is no matter who you
are Christian or not Christian, Like you don't become a
Christian and then your life is wealth, prosperous, rainbows, butterflies,
everything's great no matter what, you're going to get hit
with storms. But the difference is is that for the Christian,
your life is built on the rock and that will
not be taken from you. That will last not only

(30:51):
here but for all of eternity. But if you're not
a Christian, then you're building your life on sand. So
when the storms come, like everything you've built, everything you've worked,
it's gonna come crashing down. And so for us it's
like we were building our life on the rock and
that can't be taken, that can't be shaken no matter
what comes. And so like our faith isn't just you know,

(31:12):
in God when everything's good, when the circumstances are going
our way, and we're not just following God to get good,
Like it's like, no, he is the prize, he is
the reward, like joy is in him and joy is
in eternity with him.

Speaker 4 (31:27):
You remind me of two weeks ago. I got to
spend the full day at San Quentin Prison and do
their worship in chapel service at the prison, and I
sat next to a guy. He was very kind, and
he was a Bachelor fan. He did watch the show,
which was wild, always a weird place to run into

(31:48):
a Bachelor person, right, but he was serving three life
sentences and he was standing there worshiping alongside of me.
And then we did like breakout small groups and we're
just talking about life. And I was reminded of this
joy that is beyond understanding. I'm sitting there going, I
don't get it, man, Like you're in like I see

(32:09):
your home for the rest of your life. Yet you
are praising a God who has drastically changed your world
and given you a whole new meaning and purpose. And
you are worshiping the same God that I am, in
a way from two very different perspectives. I'm getting ready
to jump on a plane and fly home. You're walking
up to be locked into a cell. And I think

(32:31):
that's the point that I really want to emphasize here
for anybody listening, is the this is beyond understanding. You know.
That's why so many times language doesn't match the experience
of Jesus, because we're trying to explain something that is
supernatural that changes the heart. And really when we say

(32:51):
all these things, it's hey, there is a joy that
is present. And you think that you've experienced the happiness,
you think you've done all the five steps to reach
personal happiness, and that still feels like it's fallen short
and it's probably disappointing. But there's a God who has
laid attorney on your heart that is offering something far

(33:14):
more beautiful if you when you.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Enter in uh.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
You know, this conversation a lot of times for the
two of you comes to this place of and we
we kind of started here where it's the ambition, right,
the ambition of what you guys are. After we talked
a little bit about the ego, how do you too
decipher what is your own personal ambitions and all of this.
You know, you've given up a lot. You've talked about
your desire to spread the good news to whoever will

(33:39):
listen and all the people around you.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
How do you how do you keep.

Speaker 4 (33:44):
Well from your own personal ambitions and what God is
actually inviting you into? How do you decipher those two things?

Speaker 2 (33:52):
So good, he's a great question.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
And we're we're wired so differently, which I think is
such a gift honestly because I'm such a like, like
I'm I mean, we're both ambitious, and we're both dreamers,
but I'm such an activator, like make it happen now,
Like Okay, the dream's there, then let's go run with it.
Let's like, let's put everything in place, let's make it
happen now. And he's like, so good at just like
waiting upon the Lord, like waiting for God to kind

(34:15):
of reveal like whatever that next step is or that
divine like connection with someone that's gonna open up that door,
whatever it may be. And so it's good because we
kind of can like encourage each other in both of
the different ways. Where sometimes he's like, Mattie, you need
to like wait and go sit with the Lord and
like ask God to speak to you, like you can't
just go make this happen for yourself, Like if you

(34:36):
build it, then you got to sustain it, Like it's
got to be God who builds it. It's got to
be God who sustains it. And then I would say
for me, like there's moments where I'm like pushing grant
of like, hey, God has laid this on your heart,
like God has like equipped you for this. God has
put the right people in place, like now just go
for it, like act out and go do it. You know,

(34:56):
don't let fear hold you back or the what ifs
hold you back. So I think think like we both
have been so good for each other in that way.
And then I just would say to what you were
saying earlier been too, just like the power of accountability,
the power of being known locally, having people that you're
doing day to day life with, Like we have a
community group of people that we are like processing things

(35:18):
with that we are walking through our marriage, our day
to day our family life, like our prayer requests, our hopes,
our dreams are I mean everything, and I mean just
to be like vulnerable. I mean, there was even a
moment a few weeks ago that I was like, do
I want to keep doing my podcast? Like I don't
know if I want to keep doing my podcast, Like
will you guys, you know, pray about this with me

(35:39):
and will you help me? Like hear from God? And
like some of them said some helpful things. And then
there were just like honestly moments with the Lord that
I felt like he revealed things to me. I talked
to Jenny Allen. She prayed over me and encouraged me
in some ways. We prayed a lot together. So I
think just like the power of like local community and
being able to process through I think anytime you do
things in isolation, you try to chase dreams or build

(36:03):
things for yourself and it's just you and it's just
about you. I think that's where it gets really dangerous.
And so for us, like we want to live our
life in such like the light that nothing is hidden,
nothing is in the dark, nothing is secret, nothing is
processed in secret. Nothing it's processed in the dark, like
everything is out in the open, and we're inviting in
trusted voices and people who are in love with Jesus

(36:25):
and filled with His spirit that speak into our life.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
It's so great. Yeah, yeah, it's easy.

Speaker 4 (36:32):
That's great. Hey, we're going to be closing up here.
I have a few things of questions that I really
was intrigued to ask the two of you, and mostly
it comes from I've always been I'll just say impressed.
I don't know if there's a more eloquent way to say.
It's a compliment of your two understanding of scripture, your

(36:54):
memorization of scripture. I don't have that. And the way
that you two can to circumstances with biblical knowledge is
always very impressive. I don't know if that's I mean,
I don't know if that does a justice. And that's
why I'm asking these questions. You know, as marriage happens,

(37:16):
and obviously the two of you are married and you're
happily married, starting a family. As you guys have grown together,
I think one of the things that my wife and
I consistently kind of talk through is the limitations that
we placed on God. So, what like false limitations and
ideas of God did you have that you've been able
to let go of in order to grow as a couple,

(37:38):
as individuals, as parents.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
I think one for you, and I don't want to
speak for you, but it would be that my intimacy
and God's love for me is based on how much
quantity of time I spend with him. And we think
if I spend more time with God, he's nearer to me,
he loves me more, He's really proud of me, at

(38:05):
least for today. And I think I've seen a mom
who has lost a lot of that time. Sure, And
but what's so cool is I think I've never seen
you closer to God. And what I've seen her do
is with Hoseanna, it doesn't have to be that God's
time is now on the shelf. It's inviting God into

(38:29):
the mundane, everyday, little moments. And she's began to minrite scripture,
not in this time alone at a coffee shop with
our little girl making breakfast. And I think what you
would say is God is not a god going make
sure it's two hours today, Yeah, make sure you read
the chapters.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Make sure your spiritual disciplines look like this every day.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah. He talks about fighting. He says, I want you
to just remain in me, And it's this constant going
back up to heaven when you're making that Friday egg,
or you're changing that diaper, you're going back up to
heaven for a second, going you're with me right now, Jesus,
and you care about this, and I've just seen you blossom.
Whereas maybe our immature self would have said two years ago,

(39:10):
that will really hinder our relationship. I think we've seen
less time, more intimacy, more depth, be something to be true.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
I think I definitely would agree with that and have
seen like intimacy equaling more of like dependency and consistency,
and so just this level of like dependency of when
you have a child, like there's just like oh my god,
I need you. I don't know what I'm doing, I'm
getting no sleep, and I just I needed you, Lord.
But it's like that could equal whatever. I mean, Like

(39:38):
I've I've had that, Like I look back on some
of my richest, deepest, most like intimate moments with the
Lord were actually in seasons of like my greatest dependency,
like my seasons where it felt like I was going
through something really hard or I was going through something
very new, whether that is you know, you move somewhere
and there's like a big change of transition or like
in a season when all of my friends were getting

(39:59):
married and I was single, or in a season where
first year of marriage like that was hard, you know,
or season like when you have your first child and
you're like, I don't know what I'm doing and I'm
not getting any sleep. And so like those seasons of
my life, I can see, like have been some of
my most powerful, beautiful, deepest moments with the Lord because
there was such a dependency on him. I think where

(40:20):
we had to be so careful, especially in America, is
we can go through our day to day and not
really need God, Like there's not really a dependency on him.
It's kind of like, yeah, I'm gonna go to the
coffee shop, I'm gonna like read a few chapters like
by God, like I'll see you tomorrow morning. But I
love what Grant's speaking to is it's this constant abiding
And that's what we've seen in our life is that
there's not like the sacred time in the morning and

(40:41):
then you just go about the rest of your day.
It's like, no, you want that to be in every
moment of your day, where you're just constantly staying in
communion with God. That doesn't mean, every second of the
day you have your Bible right next to you, but
maybe you spend ten minutes in the morning, you know,
meditating on a certain verse, and then throughout your day
you go back to that verse. Are you that verse
or you you know, have a moment of speaking that

(41:02):
over your children or sharing it with someone that you see,
or just like you're about to go into a meeting
and you're like, God, help me to be a light
into this, like in this meeting, you know, help me
to encourage this person or whatever it may be. But
just like staying continually connected and then just like consistency
in that, but knowing it's gonna look different in different seasons.
And I definitely think that was something I had to

(41:23):
learn was I didn't get the three hours in the
coffee shop, but I have my phone on me at
all times, so I can open the Bible app and
just like sit there and stare at a verse and
then like memorize it. And honestly, Ben, I'm like you
like he he was so good at scripture memory when
we got married, and I was like so inspired slash intimidated.
I was like, how like I want to learn scripturally?

(41:45):
How do I do that, And I would have always
said that I had the worst memory, like remembering anything
was like I don't remember anything, and that's what I
would have said, but it really is crazy. It's true
like your your what is it your must or your
memory is also like the more you do it, like
the easier it gets. And now I feel like it's
just like so on my heart and I'm so grateful

(42:08):
that I've like really been intentional with that. And then
I would just add, like very quickly to that too,
is like just the importance of like dwelling before doing,
like the importance of like worshiping before working. I think
for me, so much of my time with the Lord,
I thought like I had to like go and do
all of these things for God, and there were often

(42:28):
moments where I just miss like being with God. And
so I think this has been a cool season of
just like prioritizing like being with God.

Speaker 4 (42:37):
I heard Grants say this earlier, and then I'm hesitant
to pray this prayer very often because it rocked me.
But Grant's prayer was the same as mine that changed
my life was God, if you're real and you're there,
I need to show up and I found that in
different ways of just operating through this world, those are

(42:58):
the most beautiful moments. So, really, my final question for
you before we kind of spend some I want to
spend a minute or two talking about some of the
stuff you are up to. It's not like you went
off social media and just completely disappeared and have done nothing.
There's some really fun things to talk about. But you know, obviously,
over the last years of marriage and operating in the

(43:19):
public eye, I'm sure there's been disappointments. There's been frustrations,
There's been moments of confusion. Is there one? Is there
any specific that come to mind?

Speaker 2 (43:32):
And then two?

Speaker 4 (43:34):
Have those led you to any certain space? Have they
led you to a deeper faith? Have they led you
closer together? I guess we'll say that for those listening
who are of you know, the Christian tradition and not
when moments of disappointment happen, what have you found that
occurs in your lives?

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Yeah, that's a great question. Are you talking about in
marriage or just in our I think in general when
you think of disappointment, you know if the first year
of marriage or that, like, hey, I had this habit
when we got married that was a massive like wake
up call to me, or if it was professionally, if
it was as a dad or.

Speaker 4 (44:12):
A mom, just in general.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Is there any come to mind for sure? Man? I
think I think we've had multiple moments privately and publicly
that have been that have been really hard. And I
think publicly, I think you know just a few things
where we would where we would go. It's really difficult

(44:37):
to feel like you have a heart that that loves
people so much and then maybe something you said right
or not right, it just is taken and there's a
lot of response in a negative way. I think those
moments publicly, I want to speak to that those really
humble you, and they humble you in a couple of

(44:57):
different ways. I think it's real good that when something
happens and all you want to do is respond to
sit alone for a while and just be with God.
And I would say, just a couple moments publicly, maybe
not to what we said, but the how we said,
I think we got to learn a lot about humility
and what it means to go low when your flesh

(45:20):
wants to ramp up and respond. And that didn't just
come out professionally. It came out in our whole being,
like in our whole life with God. I think we've
just constantly seen that to go low and to be
humble God honors that he really does. And none of
us are perfect, and for you and for Maddie and
for me, and we do things that are public and
which means we're not going to do everything perfectly. And

(45:42):
when we mess up, things are going to be taken
and there's going to be anger and all those things.
And I think to go low in that and to
go where can I learn? Man, my heart is never
to hurt somebody if that, if that was what happened,
we want to own that. And I think we've just
seen the power of going low, meeting people where where
they're at. We're only thirty, man, we're not teachers, going

(46:03):
you better figure it out like we have. I think
we're in this process of going Jesus made me a butterfly.
I want everyone to be a butterfly. And in that process, man,
I'm not a perfect representation of Christ. And I think
just to say that publicly is what Paul said, has
followed me as I follow Christ. But if you follow

(46:24):
grant every action, every step, man, we're going to the
wrong place because we all need to stave you man,
we all do, and to go lo and go humble
is attractive. Humility looks good on everybody. And I think
if we could put on humility, like Peter says, you
can't go wrong, I would say personally some things in
my life is I am learning how to steward what

(46:48):
God has given me. And so for my life, I
was born into wealth, and I think that's enough publicly
to say that. I always was ashamed of that. I
always was like, that's not me, that was that's my dad.
I'm going to do my own thing. And I think
what the Lord has kind of redirected in my mind is, Hey,

(47:08):
you were born into that family for a reason. Now
I want you to steward it. I want you to
steward it from my kingdom. And hey, your wife, Maddie,
she has too million followers. Don't be insecure by that,
don't be upset by that. How do you steward that?
I think it's all about stewardship. And I think God
has taken a lot of insecurity and he's kind of

(47:29):
rebuilt this identity and me in the quiet place to
go Grant, You're made for this, not just not to
hold it over as a prideful thing, but to steward
it from my glory, and I hope we're starting to
take steps where we're stewarding what we've been given so
that people see God and not and not see us.
That's so good.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
All right, as we close up here, I'd love to
spend a minute talking about all the stuff you're up to, Maddie.
I know you recently have come out with a book.
Grant I get to follow, I've been able to meet.
I think he's still your pastor, Noah and the church
in overtend. I didn't want to make that awkward if
you've not in a while, great guy, I know you're

(48:15):
actively involved in the church. There. Can you give everybody
an update since you know, maybe social media isn't as
active on what you guys?

Speaker 2 (48:22):
This is our post, this is our photo does right here? Okay,
what do you want to say for our post?

Speaker 1 (48:29):
That's so good. Being a mom is the best thing ever.
I want one hundred babies. If I could have one
hundred babies without having to be pregnant for nine months
and do natural birth, I would have one hundred bees.
Being a mom is the best. We love it so much,
or we love being parents so much. Living local really
is the best. I feel like my soul has truly

(48:50):
just like found rest and come alive and being more local,
not traveling twenty four to seven, but like having roots somewhere,
being plugged into our local church, being able to use
our gifts out our local church has been such a gift.
And then yeah, my book came out last fall called
Dare to Be True, and that message is just it's

(49:11):
so cool. It's probably like the message that burns the
heaviest on my heart, and we talked about it a
little bit earlier John eight thirty two. Then you'll know
the truth and the truth will set you free. And
the book is kind of divided into like two parts,
but really focusing on like the truths and then how
you live out that truth that leads to real freedom.
And it's been so cool getting to hear like the

(49:31):
testimonials from that and from the podcast. I'm still doing podcasting,
which is fun. It's from home, so like I don't
have to leave the house and it's really fun. So yeah,
and then our church and also the high school ministry.
You're a big part of Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
Yep. So Way Church is in Nashville, which if you
move here, bro, you gotta come check out Way Church.
It's amazing. I helped Noah I host his podcast called
Way Deeper, and so that's a really fun thing.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
My friends go there.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:01):
Also, you know, I trust me. We've been hit up
a couple of times about the Waite Church.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
Yeah. Man, there's a high school ministry that we serve
at called Wago Waybo and Bro get this. It's three
hundred and fifty high schoolers in a tent every Wednesday
night and they pour into this tent and I get
to teach the word. And Wago Youth is the Instagram.
There's a new eight minute documentary video on it that

(50:25):
I think would be cool to watch. But that's been
burning on my heart. Man, I never thought high schoolers
was what I would love. They're hungry. I used to
think it was only pizza and a doctor pepper that
got them there. They come in with the word like
ready to devour it.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
I also think because of social media, like it has
forced like maturity quicker, Like they're just exposed to things
at such a younger age.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
Now.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, and so you see like because we're really also
involved with I don't know if you've heard of Unite ministries,
but they travel to different college campuses all over the
US and and and Grant speaks to this often of
like what we see so often as we see these
college students who are like, I've been stuck in this
sin for seven years, eight years, and it's like, man,
if we could have gotten to you in high school,

(51:10):
like that would have changed everything. And so Grant talks
about that a lot, and it's been something God I
feel like has really put heavy on his heart and
he just has such like a voice to speak to
like every person in the room and his testimony, I
feel like it's just so relatable to what anybody's feeling
in high school or anybody. But it's been really cool
to see like the way it's just grown. And these

(51:33):
kids are like on fire for Jesus too. It's not
like they're like sitting there like on their phones or
like ready to leave, like they're like, it's really cool.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Yeah, Unite. Her mom does the college ministries or the
college campuses. She's starting to do high schools now, and
so it's exciting whatever God has with that. But I
would say, man, the number one thing that we're learning
to love is we used to travel so much that
when we came home home was this like who and
we would just be home. Now that we're here, we're

(52:04):
having people in the living room all the time, and
we're hosting and we're making meals for people, and I
think there's something to that that God wired us to
be with our people home and that has given us
more life than maybe we expected making meals for people.
And so I'd say a lot of local ministry going on,
which is fine.

Speaker 4 (52:24):
Yeah, there's something beautiful. I mean, I could be wrong,
Please don't somebody look into this. I think the most
talked about concept in the New Testament is hospitality of
some kind and some form in some way. We can
check that out. If not, it's up there. So being
at home around the table with people seem to be

(52:47):
completely of God, and I think those the most beautiful moments.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
All right.

Speaker 4 (52:50):
Final thing, we let people writing kind of questions and
there was a question about the Bible and I and
I read the question. I just thought of this quote
by Blaze Pascal. I don't know if the two of
you ever heard this quote. And I would love for
you just to respond to it. I think it would
be helpful for anybody listening who is, especially at this

(53:12):
time in this culture push pushing against the Bible. The
quote is this, people almost invariably arrive at their beliefs
not on a series of proof, but on the basis
of what they find most attractive. Blaze was talking about
the Bible in that so people we've talked so much

(53:34):
about on this podcast about truth about the truth, setting
you free so thirty seconds to respond to the question
pretty much of how why is the Bible always being
twisted almost as a weapon against me?

Speaker 2 (53:49):
Yeah? Man, there's so much to say. I would say,
Jesus Christ, whether you're a Christian or non Christian, it
was a proven human being, Like if you don't believe
in Christianity, he lived and he died under conscious pilot.
Archaeology has only proved this. History has only proved this.
We have to do something with what he said. He's

(54:12):
either a good prophet people say he was a good person,
or he is the Lord, which he claimed to be,
the son of God. Now he reset the calendar we
live in twenty twenty six because a person named Jesus
was born now he was proven. We have more text
of the Bible than any other old history manuscript by

(54:36):
a landslide. So this is like, hey, I'm not assuming
this is all true because I want to believe it.
Bro People that don't believe in Christianity would say, there's
nothing more historically proven that we have than the Bible.
I would say, we have to do something with the
person of Jesus Christ. He's not a good person, because
a good person doesn't claim to be God. He's not

(54:58):
just a good prophet. A good prophet doesn't say drink
my blood and eat my flesh. If he claims son
of God. We've got to do something with that. I
would say. It wasn't necessarily attractive to me. I was
at the end of myself to come and die and
follow someone named Jesus. That's not attractive to me. What
was attractive to me is that there was a God,

(55:19):
unlike any other religion that didn't sit up on a
mountain and say, be good enough and come up to me.
Buddha's up there right, Mohamma said, you live a good
enough life, you can climb up to God. There's all
these other religions, Christianity is the only religion that says
our God loves you so much. He came down the mountain,

(55:40):
and he didn't just come down the mountain. He came
down and he went to the cross for your sins
and for my sins. Now, someone listening is going, yeah,
i've heard that before. You got to hear me. You've
sinned before, right, That sins separates you from God. Every
other religion says, to make that space up, be good enough,
Help the old lady across the street, stop drinking, don't cuss,

(56:02):
listen to Christian music, and maybe our God says you've sinned.
I'm going to come down and pay for that sin
so that you can come up with me. When you
experience that love and that forgiveness, it changes everything about you.
So I don't believe this because it's attractive. I believe
it because number one, there's so much proof. Number Two,

(56:25):
I sat long enough with Jesus to go who are you?
And the Bible says all who seek me will find
me if you're in a place going. I want to believe. Granted,
I just don't know how pray the prayer that Ben
and I prayed. God, if you're real, would you please
show me. And when you ask that question, he is
dead set on answering that to find you in your heart. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
So good.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
And the only other thing I would add to that
too is then like the continual walk with him, Like
God is so good that it wasn't when Jesus rose
from the dead and then went to heaven and was
like figure out, Like he gave us his spirit and
then he gave us his word, and so it's not
like we've got to just like be strong enough and
be good enough, like Grant is saying, like, by God's mercy,

(57:11):
by God's grace, like he gave us his spirit. And
it is a daily decision of like am I going
to be led by the spirit God has given me?
Or am I going to be led by my own selfish,
sinful desires and what I want and what I want
to do. But as a believer, like we are dead
to sin alive in Christ. It's no longer us who live,
but Christ who lives in us. Like it is God's

(57:32):
spirit on the inside of us that leads and guides us.
And the spirit is the spirit of truth that will
always point us to the truth, the truth of God's
word and it's and it's so much more about like
what grit saying is like it's a faith, Like you
have to have faith. You can't just like knowledge your
way to it. Like there is so much proof, And
I could go off on that of like why I

(57:54):
believe that Christianity is the best religion, the right religion.
But like it's like we can get in these debates,
but at the end of the day, like you, it's
about an encounter, Like you've got to encounter him and
then you've got to just like decide, like you're gonna
have faith in something. We all have faith in something.
It's gonna take a lot of faith to believe that
the world was just created out of nothing, and like

(58:14):
there is no God and there is no higher of power.
It's gonna take a lot of faith to believe in Buddha.
It's gonna take a lot of faith to believe in Jesus.
You have to have faith in something. You do have
faith in something, and it's just deciding what am I
going to put that faith in. And we have decided
to put our faith in Jesus. It says in Hebrews
eleven one that faith is the confidence and what you
hope for the assurance about what you do not see.

(58:35):
So it's not something you see with your physical eyes.
We don't worship a Buddhist statue, we don't worship a temple.
We don't worship this thing, this person like physical that
you see right in front of you. Like we worship
Jesus Christ, and it's his spirit on the inside of
us that gives us the ability to accomplish His will.
And we stay constantly held accountable by the word of God.

(58:55):
We stay a part of a local church, surrounded by
the people of God. We're not made to go through
this life alone. It's too hard to try and figure
out this Christian faith or any faith on your own.
And so yeah, I just would say, like Grant said,
if you're in a place where you're like I don't know,
I've been I've been wondering, like is this thing for me?
Just say, God, if you're real, would you Jesus, if

(59:17):
you're real, would you show yourself to me? Like I
want I want to experience more of you. We have
a friend of Grant's family who, like he studied every
religion and we've gotten into these like big debates and
these big like informational conversations. And what I continue to
like challenge him with of like is just going to
take an act of like praying a prayer and putting

(59:38):
your faith in, your hope in and so yeah, that's
that's what we'd say.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
Mattie Grant.

Speaker 4 (59:45):
Thanks for joining us today, Thanks for your vulnerability, your insights.
It's a pleasure and a gift, and we wish you
the best and we'll be following along however we can.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
Thanks for joining, if you can hear me, Yeah, so grateful.

Speaker 4 (01:00:02):
Hey, friends, thanks for listening or watching. Would you take
a second, follow, subscribe, and drop a comment. It really
helps