May 12, 2026 • 49 mins
From Notre Dame football legend to ESPN, Manti Te'o joins Ben Higgins for an honest conversation about faith, resilience, and forgiveness. Manti Te'o explains his journey from a Mormon upbringing in Hawaii to becoming the face of a prestigious Catholic institution, details the infamous catfishing scandal, and the healing process that followed—including how forgiveness, faith, and family helped him overcome adversity and rebuild his identity. The two also address misconceptions about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and discuss practical advice for anyone facing bullying, misunderstanding, or moments of public scrutiny.
TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Growing Up Near South Bend
00:01:27 Choosing Notre Dame Over USC
00:02:08 Faith and Decision-Making
00:03:26 Adjusting to Notre Dame
00:05:30 Finding Common Ground in Faith
00:06:48 Family Visits and Spirituality
00:08:16 Addressing Faith Differences
00:10:20 Heisman Season and Public Spotlight
00:11:34 The Untold Docuseries Reflected
00:13:31 Healing After the Scandal
00:14:00 Separating Narrative from Reality
00:17:17 Losing and Finding Support
00:20:17 Rock Bottom, Faith, and Peace
00:21:42 Forgiveness Toward Others and Self
00:25:43 Handling Bullying and Memes
00:28:57 Rebuilding Identity and Resilience
00:30:16 Encountering the Catfisher’s Family
00:33:06 Addressing Mormon Misconceptions
00:41:17 Relationship to Jesus Christ
00:46:43 Encouragement for Those Struggling
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The reason why I have both over two shoulders is
I wouldn't have gotten through this if it wasn't for
this kid.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
There's a narrative that I created this.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Whole story to boost a draft stock. The beautiful part
about that fall is all those people that weren't for
you scatter. One thing that I learned was there's a
difference between happiness and peace. I went through the forgiveness process.
The person that also needs forgiveness is yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Welcome to if you can hear me, a space where
culture meets the soul.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'm Ben Higgins.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
You may know me from The Bachelor, and you may
know my guests from culture, headlines and entertainment. This podcast
is about going beyond the surface into something deeper. Each
week we sit down for open conversations about identity, faith,
and the realities underneath it all. At its heart, this
podcast is about creating space for people to slow down
(00:59):
and speak really. Not polished interviews are perfect answers, just
real discussions that are unfiltered. I invite you to lean
in and enjoy the conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
You know.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
I I'm an Indiana guy. I grew up thirty five
minutes from South Bend. Indiana, and so getting to talk
to you today is a gift because you are a
huge deal in mass I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I appreciate it. Bro.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
It's you know, it's funny for a guy who was
born and raised in the Church or Jesus Christ of
Latter day Saints to go to the most prestigious Catholic institution.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It was quite the jump and quite the leap of faith.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
But let me tell you, Bro, I learned so much
there and it's it's I call it my home when
I go to South Bend, Indiana. I love Indiana and
all the family centered things that they do there. I
honestly could see myself living in South Bend just because
of that feel, you know. But I don't think my
wife would allow me to go back to negative degree temperatures.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
You know, I love Indiana. So it's one of the
reasons why I moved to Denver is because of just
that chunk of the year. Every other part of the
year is amazing. There there's a chunk of the year
that it becomes a hard place to live.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
You kind of entered it.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
I think it was always the big question back then
that people asked, was you grew up in the Church
of Latter day Saints. You're still a member. I believe
it is a proper way to is that. Yeah, but
you did go to a prestigious Catholic college.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Can you walk us back to how that decision was made?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Well, Ben, so, first and foremost, I grew up a
huge USC fan. So even when you talk about Devers
has been like Mormon boy goes to a Catholic school,
USC Trojan fan goes to a Notre Dame.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
So you couldn't be more opposite of the spectrum for me.
But you said it off off the jump. My parents
have always told me to operate by faith, to keep
God at the center of our lives as much as
we can, right like I'm not perfect, but to always
rely on Him, especially in those big decisions. And I
prayed about my decision to go to college wherever I
(03:10):
was going to go to college, And honestly, Ben, I
asked Henley Father, if I could it feels right for
me to go to USC because that's where I wanted
to go. And long story short, there are a whole
bunch of events after I said that prayer, and that
prayer took place a day before signing day. That just
it made it very very clear to me that the
University of Notre Dame was where the Good Lord wanted
(03:31):
me to go.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
And I knew that.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
It was a place for me to go because number one,
I didn't want to go there. Even when I signed
to Notre Dame on signing day the first Wednesday and February,
I didn't want to go there. But there was this
feeling of peace that overcame me that I knew it
was the right one.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Now, at what point? At what point did that start
to change? I mean you you became the face and
I think when people think of Notre Dame football, you are,
I would argue, in the top five three, maybe even
the number one person they think of when they think
of Notre Dame football. You know, you can go back
to the old days, but in modern times you became
(04:13):
the face of that program and what they're looking for.
So when did that change for you? Where you really
took ownership in, Hey, you know, I'm in South Bend.
This is the place I'm supposed to be, this place
I want to be.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
It was a process, I gotta say it was. I
started to look at what made South Bend the same,
you know, for for the things that I believed in, right,
Christian guy, it was a Christian school.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Sorry, Yeah, so you talk.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
About I think so many times when you think about
something that's new, the number one thing we do as
humans naturally is look at what's different. Right, Like I'm
hearing stup Indiana. I'm an island boy. Borner is in Hawaii.
I'm a Mormon kid, you know, like there's a Catholic institution.
But I think also the benefit of going to Hawaii
(05:11):
it's a melting pot of places and the culture. So
I've also been introduced to people of different backgrounds and
different beliefs, of different cultures. And I from a very
very early stage in my career at Notre Dame, I
started to look at what makes us the same right
at Notre Dame, and what made us the same, especially
in South Bend. And you know this being from Indiana,
(05:33):
the family atmosphere, especially around winter, you know, there's not
much to do around there. You know, everybody just stays indoors.
And so I really really resonated with that. And then
I also resonated with the fact that being at Notre
Dame the Catholic religion is is such a strong religion
that there's a lot of passion there, you know, and
(05:53):
they really love God. And they never forced me, though
to participate in anything that I wasn't uncomforable, that I
wasn't comfortable with participating in. So I remember specifically my
junior year had all my family come up. Now there
are parts of my family that are members of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints and some
that aren't, and I remember those that were. We went
to this place called the Grotto. I don't know if
(06:14):
you've ever been there, Ben, but it's a place where
they have all the candles in the cave right. And
one of my uncles, who who's whose Mormons, said something
very profound. He said, Man, I don't care what religion
he belonged to. When you step on these these grounds,
you know they're holy. And that's something that if that
always carried with me when I was at Notre Dame,
was saying what was what made us the same? And
there's a lot of beautiful things about that campus. There's
(06:36):
a lot of beautiful things about the people there, and
again it's it's a place that I call home, and
it's a place that I keep very very dear to me.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
I remember, you know, when you and I are similar
in age. I remember when you were playing at Ure
Dame though, that was always it felt like a discussion,
you know, kind of how did this happen? And how
does it work? And there was always this like you know,
you obviously were talked about a lot, but this aura
around you because you were leading a team to a
(07:05):
perfect season. You're the Heisman Trophy runner up. You you know,
I grew up an Indiana and Purdue fan. Notre Dame
was not the team I was cheering for.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
But I will tell you.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Notre Dame has a fan base that is passionate in
a way that I've never really seen other than maybe
some SEC schools. They're passionate to where this is what
they live and breathe every day. So how often back
then were you answering the questions and feeling like you
had to explain yourself of coming from the Church of
(07:40):
Latter day Saints into the Catholic university because you know
so much of this conversation I want to get into,
you know, your personal story, but I want to help
understand how to bridge the gap of how did you
explain it, how did you come to terms with it?
It would feel very uncomfortable in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
To me.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Well, I think what's beautiful is you talk about that gap, right, Ben,
there's not that big of a gap, And I think
that's what it's important. When people think of the Church
of Jesus Christ, a lot of they say they think
of it as this huge gap between this Christian belief
in that one when in actuality it's almost so much
of it overlaps with each other. And so number one,
(08:22):
I wouldn't get asked the question a lot when I
was there, And if I did get answer ask the question,
I said, you know, the guy who you believe is God,
I believe.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
In the same guy.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
You know who the guy who you believe as a
savior of the world. And Jesus Christ, I believe in
the same guy. You know who we worship here, Notre
Dame Mary. I believe in the same woman. And so
there were again the similarities between what I believe and
what they believe.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
It became what we.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Believe, right, And so that there weren't a lot of
conversations like that, but those that were being had, people
start to realize like, oh wow, I didn't realize that
you believe the same thing that we believe.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I was like, yeah, the Bible you read, I read
the same thing. You know, it's just we.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
We I think there's there's a if there's a thing
in society and you know this, Ben, if you believe
something different than me, then we can't get along. It's like,
that's that's not the case here. Like I believe in
the same thing in you, but maybe from a different angle,
and that's totally fine. And so there are a lot
of beautiful conversations that I had while there with certain people.
(09:29):
But again, because the people at Notre Dame were so amazing,
I never really had to have those during my four
years in South in Indiana.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
In a bit, I want to dive into those angles,
if you don't mind, I want to dive in when
you see coming at it from a different angle. But
I can't help but notice, you know, when this time
together was set up, I had a lot of things
I wanted to talk to you about. But then obviously,
as you get the rundown, so much of it is
about the picture behind you. I you know, I didn't
(10:01):
know how deep into you know the things that happened
in under Dame and some of the things that people,
all of a sudden we're talking about, not only in
pop culture but also on now your your employer ESPN
was about this story that was unfolding while you were
at Notre Dame. It's interesting me, I think I want
(10:23):
to start. I wasn't planning on this, but like you
have it behind you, the things that sit behind your
things I am proud of, or things that I want
to be asked about. For those that are listening and
not watching, there's a poster of the untold docuseries about
your time at Notre Dame and the scandal that came out.
(10:46):
I don't know if I can call it even a scandal.
It was just a very interesting time in your life.
So let's start with why I do have the poster
behind you.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, well, there's.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
The reason why I have this one here and then
this So this was my pop Warner jersey. So the
reason why I have both over two shoulders is I
wouldn't have gotten through this if it wasn't for this
kid and then this kid over my left shoulder, the
one who wore the Pop Warner Jersey would be proud
of the person that came out of that, the man
(11:18):
that came out of that documentary, the man that went
through what he went through with the whole catfishing scheme.
So there's a reason why I have these two specifically
over man and obviously have my Notre Dame diploma right below,
but I have these two specifically for that to remind
myself that that little boy that once wore that jersey
helped this young man to get through what he went through.
(11:40):
But the healing of that little boy allowed this man
to be who he is. And so there's a reason
why I had those there. But it's something that I'm
very very proud of why because the journey ben that
I had to take, not just as the time of
events happened with the catfishing thing, but to go through
everything again to make that documentary happen, there was a
(12:03):
level of healing that I didn't know that I needed
to embark on that naturally happened when I'm going through
all the old text messages, listening to the voicemails, talking
to people that are around during that time, and at
that time, I'm a married man already, you know what
I mean, and so I'm going through that in the
conversations that I was having with my wife about Hey,
(12:26):
I don't know what's going to be required of me
in this ordeal, but I know that there's gonna be
some dark stuff that are going to come up, and
I'm asking you to please have some grace with me,
to be as be patient. Now, my wife was such
a star worth of individual during that time that I
wouldn't have gotten through this with it had it not
been for a whole bunch of individuals, specifically my wife.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
If you don't mind, I just want to spend a
few minutes kind of diving into this. And it's not
as much about the details. I think people can watch
the documentary, they can read about the details of this.
But you were a college student at the time and
the world was forming opinions. What was the biggest gap
between how people perceived you during that time and perceive
(13:12):
the situation and the actual reality to what was happening.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Well, there there was a narrative that I created it.
There was a narrative that I created this this whole
story to boost draft stock, to boost some awards. I mean,
I was up for the Heisman that year and everybody,
you know, there was a there, there was this narrative
(13:38):
that hey, MAT'SI created this whole thing so that he
would look better in the eyes fans of NFL scouts,
whatever it was. And the whole time it was understanding
and knowing thats like I had nothing to do with this, right,
and there was there there there there was this thin.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Line bend where we had to come together.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
And the representatives that I had at that time, we're saying, hey, listen,
it's either I think you should just let this thing
kind of blow over, not knowing that we're in this
transition period in social media where it's either you control
the narrative or the narrative controls you. And because we
were in this gray area, nobody knew what to do.
(14:19):
My case was kind of the first biggest case of
this kind of this nature that you know, people are like, well,
since we don't know how to handle it, just this
kind of just be quiet.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And hopefully this thing blows over.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Well it didn't, and it took it took a mind
of its own, and it just went and it just
snowbought and and it it went downhill fast, and I
think it was all part of the plan, though, Ben,
because the journey that I had to go through, the
trip from the I would call it, and you know
this the summits of the human experience, right, There's there's
(14:53):
certain altitudes that you can get in life where you know,
like dang, I'm at the top and the experience of
the Jurassic fall from that altitude to what I now
know as the rock bottom of what people will call as.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
A rock bottom of life.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
That experience, Ben, allows me, number one, to have a
deeper sense of empathy for people that are going through things.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
And I equated a lot to lifting weights.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Whatever weight you can lift, whatever weight I can lift,
or anybody that's listening and watching this. It may be
all different, but the strain under that weight is the same,
right whatever it is like when I'm trying to max out.
It may be a different weight than you, but the
emotions and the pain and the push it's the same.
And so that fall from that summit to rock bottom
(15:43):
is going to be the same for me as it
will be another individual. So that allows me to be
able to put myself in their shoes and getting spiritual
about it. I got a very close intimate knowledge of
what just an inkling of what the same could have
went through when he was in the garden at guestsemony,
like the plan of the toonement, and being able to
(16:07):
feel what people felt, to be able to take their pains,
their you know, their sicknesses and all of that.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
In a very very small, small micro way.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I could feel what other people felt and be able
to help them. And so I'm not saying that I'm
I experienced what Christ did, because it ain't. Nobody experienced that,
but I got to feel that for the first time
of my life, and I was.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
I was very grateful for that opportunity. It wasn't comfortable, though,
I imagine.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
I mean I'm hearing you and you are. I mean,
I don't want to overemphasize it or underemphasize it, but
you are at the top, Like you are the Heisman
Trophy runner up as a linebacker.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Unheard of.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah, I mean, that's that's an incredible accomplishment. You're leading
one of the most passionate fan bases and one of
the most historic teams to an undefeated season. You are
the face of this university at the time, and you
had this what you described as a drastic fall as
(17:09):
a human though. I mean, yes, you're a football player,
people know you from that, but you're human as you fall.
I have two parts of this. Who's gathering around you?
And how are you gripping onto anything to find stability?
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Number one, who's gathering around me? So this is the
beautiful part that there's beauty in the thorns of this thing.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Ben.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So when you're at the pinnacle, when you're at the summit,
there's a lot of people in your ear, and you
know that you have a big entourage, right. Everybody wants
to be attached to you. Everybody wants to be associated
with you. And for a young kid at that age,
if you're telling me things that I want to hear,
I'm going to bring you into this entourage.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
So at the height of everything, that entourage for me,
Ben was pretty huge. Now, within that entourage, not everybody,
probably a majority of them aren't really for you. The
beautiful part about that fall is all those people that
weren't for you scatter, right, they leave. The only ones
that are there for you are the ones that are
(18:19):
actually they actually love you. And I'll tell you my siblings,
my parents, and about less than ten individuals outside of
my immediate family.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
There were people that were I have blood relation too
that I saw scatter, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
So that for me was the biggest eye opening experience
of Okay, now I know who's really actually for me.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
But the only one that can save you from that
is the Savior. That's it.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
I learned that there are a lot of things at
the Summit that can.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Make you happy.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
There are a lot of things that can get you excited.
Being on a private jet that's exciting, Going into a
Rose Royce that's super cool. Being able to have access
to all of these different luxuries, walk into a really
nice resort that is cool.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
But one thing that.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
I learned was there's a difference between happiness and peace,
and peace can only come from one place, and that's
from God, and that's it. And once I learned that difference,
that's what changed everything. And I think that's what I
learned when I finally hit rock bottom and then that
silence down there.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
It's rock bottom.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Is a very quiet place, but it's a very loud
place because the voices in your head are the ones
that's screaming at you the most. And I'll never forget
Ray Lewis said something when he was going through what
he went through, and he was in jail, and he said,
for the first time he heard God say can you
hear me now? And I swear I heard those same
exact words when I was down there telling me can
you hear me now? I think a lot of the
(19:59):
times I got stuck and listening to what the world
was trying to tell me and say, Matt, how you're this,
You're great, You're awesome.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Blah blah blah, You're my hero, You're my role.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Model, that I started to mute out God trying to
direct me, you know, And I think sometimes God is
kind enough to say, okay, well, if I have to
remind you, I'll remind you. And oftentimes it's not in
a way that you would want it.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
The whole process here, I'm assuming, has required you, as
you've gotten older in life, to offer a lot of
forgiveness something you know that God has called us to
not only forgiveness for the person behind the cat fishing,
(20:43):
but the people that scattered.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Can you explain a.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Little bit about what that processes look like and how
you've allowed people back in. Maybe you haven't based on wisdom,
but what does the process of forgiveness look like to you?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Well, forgiveness, I think there's layers to it. Number One,
my life I was such an I was in a
miserable place ben that I needed to forgive selfishly for
me because I needed to let that anger go. It
was I was letting something faster that another individual wasn't
(21:20):
actively doing to me. But because I had held onto
this rage and this revenge, I learned the beauties of
forgivenesses I had to let it go so that I
can move on with my life. Number two was as
I started to practice the things that we were taught
in church about being able to forgive. I went on
(21:42):
that journey again with what Christ did? I mean you
hear the acronym WWJD. What would Jesus do?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Like, okay, what would Jesus do? And I got very
intimate with what he would actually do because we knew
what he would do and every aspect of his life,
whether he was when he was hanging from the cross
and says forgive them, Father, for they know not what
they do. Those words and that picture of him doing
that in those circumstances taught somebody like me who was
(22:08):
in I just got made fun of, right, I had
memes made fun of. So when you start to compare
the two, it's like Manti yours even compare to the
greatest man to ever walk on earth. And that happened
to him, and he could forgive those who just did
the most heinous things to him. Why can't you forgive?
The third part of it was, I don't want to
(22:31):
go to the next life and meet my maker and
he tell me, you know all the times you got
on your knees and you asked me to forgive you,
yet you couldn't forgive that person. I didn't want to
be the hypocrite then, and so I went through those
three stages.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Now.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
For the first one was a very surface level. I
needed forgive so I can move on. And as I
got deeper into the forgiveness journey was Okay, I profess
to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter day Saints. I profess to be a follower
of Jesus Christ. If I am going to be a
follower of Jesus Christ, what did he do? And learning
(23:12):
what he did and why he did it? And once
I did that, that's what helped lead my steps into
the forgiveness process, but I'll add this bend. The biggest
change in my life was when I learned that the
person that also needs forgiveness is yourself. When I learned
(23:34):
that that little boy, the one that wore this jersey,
needed to know that it wasn't his fault, that the
acts of this man and what happened to this man
wasn't this little boy's fault. That's when that man I
could unleash. I could take the shackles off of the
father that I needed to be, of the husband that
(23:54):
I needed to be, of the son that I needed
to be.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
And that's when I formed.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I literally transformed into the person who I am today,
understanding that I needed to forgive that little boy and
tell them, man, tie, it's okay, bro, It's not your fault.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
What happened to you is not your fault. It's okay.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Once I forgave all parties, myself included, that's when I
became a different story for me.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
You brought up the memes and the you know, the
making fun of I'd say bowling or whatever. It's it's
kind of even weird for me to put bowling you
in the same sentence because of who you are in
your background. But I'm curious myself and then also for
maybe the parent that's listening or the kid that's listening
(24:39):
to this. I'm sure during that time, right you just
get drafted. You'd mentioned publicly before that there was a
lot of anxiety around your time in the NFL and
kind of mentally kind of what you're processing.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
But I'm sure being.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
In locker rooms growing up myself, people were bringing this up,
you were hearing about it. How did you walk through that?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
It?
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Maybe if you could answer that in like the most
realistic way for that kid that's getting something, you know,
said to him in the locker room and he's getting
reminded of one of the most painful moments of his
life over and over and over again, while still trying
to make friends and still trying to hang out with people,
and still trying to play a sport.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
How did you do that? You know? In your early twenties,
I failed multiple times.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
There was a very three years exactly been where it
didn't matter what people said to me. Who I thought
myself to be was nonexistent, you know, So I remember
what I would do every morning was outstare at myself
in the mirror and what I in my apartment that.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I had in San Diego.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I started to pace little quotes on my mirror and
I would have a book and I entireed the book
Dear Matt Tie on it. Every time my parents and
my family members would come up to watch a game,
I would ask them to write me something in there.
And it really was ben for me to help reintroduce
myself to me to the people that I felt knew
(26:14):
me the most. But I would look at myself in
the mirror every morning and I would say these words.
I say, Man, tiw you're that dude. And I tell
you Ben, when I first started doing that, I thought
of myself as a fraud. I said, you're you don't
even believe that.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Bro, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
And so I remember during my career, and I was
only doing this for superficial reasons, Ben, I was doing
this so that I could play better because I was
experiencing I was experiencing such high anxiety on the football
field that I was a shell of myself my first
three years in NFL. And so I was like, man,
I need to play better, So I need to figure
all of this stuff out. While the memes were coming out.
(26:52):
Teammates were saying stuff, opponents were saying stuff, fans would
say stuff behind me.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
And it wasn't until my.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Fourth year where I went through the forgiveness process when
that's what changed everything for me. Ben that once I
forgave the person that did it to me, once I
forgave the little boy, all of that stuff that people
said never mattered from that point on. Why Because I knew.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Exactly who these two people were.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Right, you could have an opinion about me, and that's fine,
but the opinion that I have of myself is you
cannot change that because the opinion that I formulated from
there was at square one. It was from rock bottom.
It was from I just came out the womb, and
this is who I am. That's the picture, and that's
(27:45):
how solid of an image that I had of who
I was. It was not Manti the football player. It
was not Manti the boy from Holly. It wasn't Manti
the boy that went It was a Heisman Trophy finalist,
a guy that played it, and it was none of that.
It was My name is matt Anti Tell and this
is who Mantai is. He's the son of Brian and
Otelia Telo. He's a son of God, and that's where
(28:06):
it starts, and that's where it ended. Everything else after
that band is to be determined. But from there I
determined that not you. And so for those people that
are maybe struggling with hearing what people are saying, maybe
number one, listen to what this guy is saying, and
then listen to what the Savior is trying to tell you,
because those yourself and the man above is the only
(28:30):
two people that can create an individual that is true,
is completely immovable. And once that happened, Ben, I was
told that's when I said, you could not beat me
at that point. And I've shared this with my wife
a couple of times, and bless her heart, she never
knew me when I was in college, so she didn't know.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
About my career there. But I always joke at her.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I said, listen, if the man who who you know
had the abilities of the young man that played there,
it would have been a totally different story, because this
one isn't swayed by the praise or by the critics.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
He's the saying regardless, swaye by the praise or the critics.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
I just had somebody in my life recently say people
are gonna throw roses and stones at your feet, pick
up neither.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Oh that's powerful.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
I've kept that with me now for the six months
after she's given me that piece of wisdom. And it's
James things. As we kind of close up the conversation
on this, have you ever confronted the catfisher? And what
does that look like? I'm maybe just personally curious.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
I've never confronted the person who catfished me, and I
can only imagine what it would look like.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
It would be.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Matter of fact, I'll share with you this story I
was actually in and this is what I shared with
the psychologist that I met when I when I knew
i'd forgiven the person.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
I was at a high school All.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
American game in Oceanside, California in twenty fourteen, fifteen ish,
and I was standing in the end zone. I was
asked to make an appearance. So I'm there, I'm cheering
on everybody. Everything is great, and I see this young
lady and she's I'm in the end zone. She's on
(30:26):
the sideline and she's next to what looked like her father,
and her father was like in a wheelchair and I'm
looking at this young lady. Ben I'm like, that girl
looks familiar, but I've never seen that girl before. I've
never met that girl before, as matter of fact. And
one of my best friends at the time, some big
play happened and he came in front of me and
(30:46):
he's looking.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
He's hyping, and he's like, man, did you see that?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
But he could see that I'm just fixated on this girl,
and he was like, bro, what's the matter? And I said,
that girl right there and I pointed it right to her.
I was like, that girl looks familiar, but I know
that I've never met her. And I remember his face
changes and he goes, bro, we we can leave right now.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I said, well, what's the whole deal?
Speaker 1 (31:11):
He is like that that girl right there is a
sister of the person that cat fished you. I was like,
oh interesting. I was like, and when where's that individual at.
He's like, well, I heard that that person is over
there on the other side with a booth that's taking
pictures on the other side of the field. He's like,
but we can go right now. And I remember at
(31:32):
that time then I knew. I said, you know what
I'm okay. So are you sure. I was like, I'm good.
He's like, are just let you know? I said no,
I'm okay. So how would it would look. I wouldn't know,
but it wouldn't Maybe a handshake and say, hey man,
I wish you all the best, you know, whatever it is.
(31:52):
I know what it feels like to have people say
things about me. I know it feels like to have
people have negative things be said about me, and to
have negative thoughts about myself.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
I wish you peace, I wish you nothing but the best,
and we'd move on, you know.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
And so I I've had that kind of experience right
knowing that I was in the same proximity as an
individual and had.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
No your ill feelings towards towards that person.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
As we make the switch, I can only imagine you
have this mindset because of your faith. I don't. I
don't think that comes naturally to somebody. But it feels peaceful.
It is peaceful. It is the best way to live
in a place of forgiveness. But obviously there was healing
(32:36):
that had to take place. You mentioned it earlier, and
I promised you would get back to it. As we
talked about your time at Notre Dame. You talked about
coming at it from a different angle. I think was
your the way you said it. And obviously, in another
life that I live, I do host a pop culture
show that talks about the bachelor and the bachelorette, and
that's been all over the news recently because the recent
(32:58):
Bachelorette was a part of the Secret Lives of Mormon
Wives show. That season is not airing because of things
happening outside of the Bachelorette and some accusations and some
court filings and some case filings that have happened. So
I think you know, as we've I've broken down that
(33:19):
whole situation on my show and broken down the Secret
Lives of Mormon Wives show that's out there on Hulu.
There's been a lot of people commenting on one may
be saying, hey, thanks for trying to walk through this
in a respectful way, and other people coming at it
and being like, hey, all this stuff is crazy. I
can't believe you've been covering it. But I have you
(33:39):
with me today and I thought we could spend a
few minutes kind of walking through your upbringing in the
Church of and also your understanding of the misconceptions out there. Okay,
and so you I'll start with this. You said you
went to Notre Dame. There's so many similarities, but you're
(34:01):
just coming at it from a different angle. I love
if maybe we could just start with you elaborating on
what you mean by that.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Well, I learned that you know, with in the in
the Church of Jesus Christ Latter day Saints, we have sacrament,
which is what in Catholic institution is communion. Right, it's
it's a way for us to come. We we we
say a prayer, we take the sacrament of bread and
and water, and in Catholic culture it's it's it's bread
and wine, and so for me it's they they believe
(34:32):
in Jesus Christ as a savor of of of the world,
which we believe in the Son of God.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
And then married.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
So again there was just there wasn't really much different.
They have confession. We we we meet with our with
our beach, with our bishop and and our church leaders
to help us go through the repentance process to figure
out how can we overcome the weaknesses that we have. Right,
and there are some weaknesses that we may need assistance on. Right,
if if I and if I need help in fixing
(35:01):
my language, I think I can do that on my own.
If there's other things that I may suffer from. Some
people suffer from pornography, some people suffer from drug addiction,
whatever it is that could need some assistance, right, And
so I think confession allows number one people to get
that out there, right, to acknowledge that, man, this is
an issue that I have, and then also having the
(35:23):
support system around us to have that happen. So there's
that similarities between the two religions. But the spirituality aspect,
the reference about how we worship now is very very
similar when it came to the Catholic institution and when
it came to the bus as a church of jujuis
Christ the Latter Saints. And I've got family members that
(35:43):
are just they don't go to Catholic institution or Mormon industry.
They just go to a Christian church and the praise
is all the same. I've actually seen some sacrament meetings
in our church be a little bit more upbeat and
a little more like almost like a Baptist church where
there's back and forth, and I was like, oh, this
is cool as long as I can feel the Spirit.
(36:04):
I think the spirit is a language that is felt
beyond borders, right, It's there's when when the Spirit overcomes you.
It's just this feeling that you get where you know
that what you're hearing and what you're experiencing comes from
one source, and it's it's confirming that for you. And
there's been many times where I've sat at the grotto.
(36:26):
There's many many times where I've been listening to a preacher.
I listened to Philip Anthony Mitchell.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
On on on on on on.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Podcasts, and I love what he talks about it. There's
just certain things that happen where I think the Spirit
confirms me, like, hey, this is this is true. That
happens almost often when I'm in church and when I'm
when I go to church with the Church of just Christ,
lettery Saints, and that's what I That's one thing that
I always can count on when when I go to church,
(36:55):
I have this very clear path of what is important
and what isn't. And I think sometimes when I get
lost in a shuffle, it's always a good reminder of
trying to decipher what direction I should take my family,
especially now that I have a wife and kids.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
You are a husband and a father.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
Yeah, you know, as this is popped up in pop
culture and as people are talking about faith more, what
are some of the biggest misconceptions. I mean, that's kind
of a hard question because I don't know how familiar
are with you know, the conversations that exist outside of
But at least when I say the word misconception and
(37:31):
you think about the Church, the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter day Saints, what are some things that pop
into your head that maybe you just wish you could
talk through.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah, well, maybe help me on this, ben. So one
of I've heard is that we think Joseph Smith is
a god or God and that's not true or the
reason why our name is the way it is, and
there has been an encouragement and an emphasis on saying
(38:01):
from Mormon to Church of Jesus Christ. A lot of
these saints, like the reason why there was an emphasis
emphasis of this from from our prophet was so that
people understand what we're about. It's in the name, it's
Church of Jesus Christ. That's who we follow, and it
starts there and it ends there. The second thing that
(38:22):
I've heard, and I've actually watched two documentaries about it
and it's it's pretty wild. Was the plural marriage aspect
of it, that's not something that we do maybe that
whether that was in the past or what, that's not
something that we do today. I have one wife. I
love my wife. I don't need another wife. I love
(38:45):
my children. I tried every day to be the best
husband that I can be. What's another one? No alcohol.
That's one thing that we do, uh, we do practice
is we don't drink alcohol. There are those that do.
Like everybody, there there are people that have weaknesses and
there are people with that. People they're they're trying to
(39:07):
fight through things, and that's okay, and that's why we
always try to be open and be encouraging and be
supportive of those that are are are fighting through some
of the weaknesses that they have. What's another thing and
the others that's kind of like then the ones that
I think can think, I mean, I think that's right now.
(39:30):
You covered a lot of the ones at least are
the hot topics, right the you know is their plural
wives or plural spouses. I think the relationship to Joseph
Smith you covered that. I think in closing here, I
think if you you've you've touched on it so much,
(39:51):
but I think it would be the one thing that
the question that's been asked so much is what is
your relationship to Jesus Christ?
Speaker 2 (39:58):
What is your view of Jesus.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
And and how do you hold Jesus compared to you know,
I really think and maybe people will correct me, but
I think if you're not a part of the church,
I think a big question would be what is the
how do you hold Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, Like,
what's what are the two of those look like? Are
they side by side to your you know, your faith
(40:22):
system and your faith tradition. And I think maybe even
if that's like crazy elementary level, like that's wild that
you'd even ask that question, you think it sits out
there perfect.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Jesus Christ is a savor of the world.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Jesus Christ is a son of God who came in
a tone for all of our sins. He is a
way the truth and the lights. He's a way back
to Heaven. Joseph Smith is equivalent. He's a prophet. He's
the equivalent to Noah. He's equivalent to Joseph was sold
into Egypt He's the equivalent to Elijah, Elisha.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
All the the prophets of Oh.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
That's who we see Joseph as as a prophet. We
still believe that we have the abilities to hear what
the Lord wants from wants of us through the prophets today.
So Joseph is a prophet. We don't look at to
him as a savior. He doesn't replace Jesus. He was
(41:20):
just somebody who was very very instrumental in establishing what
we believe God's Christ's Gospel was when he first came
to came to the earth and what he was trying
to teach. He brought that in its full entirety back
to the world during that time. So that's who we
see Joseph Smith as a very very important person. But
(41:41):
in regards to Jesus, the Savior of the world, nobody,
nobody compares to him. Jesus is the leader of our church.
The prophet is just a mouthpiece as to which we
hear what we think, what we believe.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
The Lord wants us to do.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
So I think that's that's the simplest way for me
to kind of distinguish that. I think if people, if
we were a church that thought Joseph Smith was Jesus,
it would have been the Church of Joseph Smith the Latter
day Saints, you know what I mean. But it's a
Church of Jesus Christ. And I'm very grateful that I
believe it was Prophet President Monson who emphasized that of Hey, listen,
(42:25):
let's I know we're called Mormons, lds all of that stuff,
but let's emphasize the Church of Jesus Christ the Latter
day Saints. And I think it was in preparation to
help convey who really is at the head of our church,
and it's Jesus Christ.
Speaker 4 (42:40):
I think it's always dangerous you kind of mentioned at
the beginning when there's a lack of understanding and a
lack of perspective, people make judgments, they create the rumors.
And I think no matter what faith tradition you're a
part of, I think having an understanding of everybody's walks
of life will help make the more intelligent, educated decisions
(43:01):
and spread love further. And so I appreciate you educating
and allowing me to ask probably the questions that if
anybody on it was a part of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. They'll be like, that's
the craziest question I've ever heard. Ask I appreciate you. No, No,
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
Bro.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
I want to say, Bro, it's it's I love these conversations.
I love when there is a dialogue right of differences, right,
and I love the fact that somebody who or a
group of people that may not understand, instead of sitting
there but like, well, I don't understand that I don't
like it, they have the love to sit down and
(43:41):
be like, hey, bro, I don't understand what you guys do.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Let's let's talk about it.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Because just like that documentary did for me, where there
wasn't there was a misconception or there are certain things
out there that were being said about that guy, whatever
it may be, that it created this narrative about that
individe that people are like, I don't like that guy.
Oh that's a bad dude, or this, And then the
(44:05):
doctor manary came out and people are like, oh my gosh,
now I understand what the heck happened.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Now I understand all the details.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
I think this is what we've been able to do
at a small degree with the short amount of times
that you and I had out there. It's like, Hey,
there's all of these narratives about the Church of Jesus
Christ Alatter day Saints. Let's let's talk about it. Let's
talk about some of the details of it, Let's talk
about some of your beliefs. And as we talk about it,
I think there are a lot of people that are like, oh, man,
I didn't know that, or hey, man, that's cool, and
(44:32):
see a lot of the similarities between what they already
believe in.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
I agree with you.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
I think it is one of the things that I
hope we can get back to in this world is
sitting and having conversations that matter and listening more than
we talk, and talking about each other's experiences and goodness, gracious,
you could give a masterclass and what it is to
be on the mountaintop, to be humbled, to pick yourself
(44:57):
back up and continue on and become I'm a father
and a husband, and I think through the way, and
I don't the moment in this conversation where I said,
there's somebody out there that's going to be listening to this,
who is getting reminded over and over again of one
of the most painful seasons of their life and they're
(45:18):
getting made fun of or they're getting picked at, and
they don't know where to turn, and they feel like
they need to give up, that this isn't worth it
any longer. Because as you're a young person, obviously you
know you and I can probably look back on that
time and remember how easy it would have been to
say this, the whole thing is not worth it. I
would love for you as we close, just because I
(45:41):
think you could give the masterclass, give that message one
more time to the person. Maybe they're the adult dealing
with it, maybe they're the kid dealing with it, but
they're feeling the way of the world and they don't
know where to turn, they don't know what's next. What
would you say to them?
Speaker 1 (46:00):
There was one scripture that I memorized that my father
had me memorize from the Book of Mormon. It's a
book that we believe in our church is another testament
of the life of Jesus Christ. It said book in
first chapter three, verse seven, is say, and it came
to pass that I need if I said, unto my father,
I'll go and do the things which the Lord has.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Commended me for.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
I know that basically that there's nothing that the Lord
will command me to do that he hasn't already prepared
a way for me to do it. For those that
are going through something, number one, understand that God wouldn't
call you to do something that he didn't equip you
to be able to carry the cross that he's asking
you to carry. He knows that you have the strength
(46:42):
to do it. Number two is we all have Google Maps.
We all when we're trying to go to a destination,
we type in the coordinates and sometimes.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Various routes pop up.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
I think oftentimes God causes us to go through certain
things so that when somebody else asks to go to
a certain coordinate that you've gone to, that hopefully your
path will illuminate on their map. And so for those
that are going through trying times when life gets hard,
walking on your own two feet, walking on your knees,
(47:15):
and I promise you you'll get the strength that you need.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
To number one, endure and number two.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
To get the perspective of what the true meaning to
this burden is and what it's creating for you and
for those that are coming after you. And so it
isn't easy. That's number one. For anybody that says that
it is hasn't born that way yet. Number two, there
is somebody that has felt exactly what you're feeling at
(47:41):
this very moment, and his name is Jesus Christ. When
he knelt down in that garden of Gassemite and he
took upon himself the sins of the world, he also
took upon himself all the pains, all the sickness or
the disease or the depression, everything that the human could
ever experience, he took upon himself in that moment. And
that was something that I clung onto. It was I
(48:01):
know that there may not be anybody that knows how
I feel, but I know that there's one, and I
can pray to him at all times, at any time
of the day. And I did that often, and because
I did, he gave me the strength to endure. And
I know that he'll give you the strength to endure
as well. And I hope that the people that come
after you will be able to again type in those
coordinates to the goals and the things that they want
to achieve in life. And I'm sure your path to
(48:23):
illuminate on their map as well.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Monte.
Speaker 4 (48:26):
Thank you so much. I appreciate your time, your ability
to have conversations that matter, your ability and desire to
help others through your story, and if people want more
of you, they can. I think the announcement just came
out right that you're gonna you're on ESPN now.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Yeah, yeah, they.
Speaker 4 (48:47):
Can watch you on ESPN probably starting win. Is it already,
you know, has it already already?
Speaker 2 (48:53):
We're already going April first? Yeah, April first, we're kicking
and we're rolling.
Speaker 4 (48:57):
Congratulations to that, best to you and your family. Thanks
for joining us today. Thank you, Ben, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
Brother.
Speaker 4 (49:05):
Hey friends, thanks for listening or watching.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Would you take a second, follow.
Speaker 4 (49:09):
Subscribe, and drop a comment.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
It really helps
The reason why I have both over two shoulders is
I wouldn't have gotten through this if it wasn't for
this kid.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
There's a narrative that I created this.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Whole story to boost a draft stock. The beautiful part
about that fall is all those people that weren't for
you scatter. One thing that I learned was there's a
difference between happiness and peace. I went through the forgiveness process.
The person that also needs forgiveness is yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Welcome to if you can hear me, a space where
culture meets the soul.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'm Ben Higgins.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
You may know me from The Bachelor, and you may
know my guests from culture, headlines and entertainment. This podcast
is about going beyond the surface into something deeper. Each
week we sit down for open conversations about identity, faith,
and the realities underneath it all. At its heart, this
podcast is about creating space for people to slow down
(00:59):
and speak really. Not polished interviews are perfect answers, just
real discussions that are unfiltered. I invite you to lean
in and enjoy the conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
You know.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
I I'm an Indiana guy. I grew up thirty five
minutes from South Bend. Indiana, and so getting to talk
to you today is a gift because you are a
huge deal in mass I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I appreciate it. Bro.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
It's you know, it's funny for a guy who was
born and raised in the Church or Jesus Christ of
Latter day Saints to go to the most prestigious Catholic institution.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It was quite the jump and quite the leap of faith.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
But let me tell you, Bro, I learned so much
there and it's it's I call it my home when
I go to South Bend, Indiana. I love Indiana and
all the family centered things that they do there. I
honestly could see myself living in South Bend just because
of that feel, you know. But I don't think my
wife would allow me to go back to negative degree temperatures.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
You know, I love Indiana. So it's one of the
reasons why I moved to Denver is because of just
that chunk of the year. Every other part of the
year is amazing. There there's a chunk of the year
that it becomes a hard place to live.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
You kind of entered it.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
I think it was always the big question back then
that people asked, was you grew up in the Church
of Latter day Saints. You're still a member. I believe
it is a proper way to is that. Yeah, but
you did go to a prestigious Catholic college.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Can you walk us back to how that decision was made?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Well, Ben, so, first and foremost, I grew up a
huge USC fan. So even when you talk about Devers
has been like Mormon boy goes to a Catholic school,
USC Trojan fan goes to a Notre Dame.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
So you couldn't be more opposite of the spectrum for me.
But you said it off off the jump. My parents
have always told me to operate by faith, to keep
God at the center of our lives as much as
we can, right like I'm not perfect, but to always
rely on Him, especially in those big decisions. And I
prayed about my decision to go to college wherever I
(03:10):
was going to go to college, And honestly, Ben, I
asked Henley Father, if I could it feels right for
me to go to USC because that's where I wanted
to go. And long story short, there are a whole
bunch of events after I said that prayer, and that
prayer took place a day before signing day. That just
it made it very very clear to me that the
University of Notre Dame was where the Good Lord wanted
(03:31):
me to go.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
And I knew that.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
It was a place for me to go because number one,
I didn't want to go there. Even when I signed
to Notre Dame on signing day the first Wednesday and February,
I didn't want to go there. But there was this
feeling of peace that overcame me that I knew it
was the right one.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Now, at what point? At what point did that start
to change? I mean you you became the face and
I think when people think of Notre Dame football, you are,
I would argue, in the top five three, maybe even
the number one person they think of when they think
of Notre Dame football. You know, you can go back
to the old days, but in modern times you became
(04:13):
the face of that program and what they're looking for.
So when did that change for you? Where you really
took ownership in, Hey, you know, I'm in South Bend.
This is the place I'm supposed to be, this place
I want to be.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
It was a process, I gotta say it was. I
started to look at what made South Bend the same,
you know, for for the things that I believed in, right,
Christian guy, it was a Christian school.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Sorry, Yeah, so you talk.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
About I think so many times when you think about
something that's new, the number one thing we do as
humans naturally is look at what's different. Right, Like I'm
hearing stup Indiana. I'm an island boy. Borner is in Hawaii.
I'm a Mormon kid, you know, like there's a Catholic institution.
But I think also the benefit of going to Hawaii
(05:11):
it's a melting pot of places and the culture. So
I've also been introduced to people of different backgrounds and
different beliefs, of different cultures. And I from a very
very early stage in my career at Notre Dame, I
started to look at what makes us the same right
at Notre Dame, and what made us the same, especially
in South Bend. And you know this being from Indiana,
(05:33):
the family atmosphere, especially around winter, you know, there's not
much to do around there. You know, everybody just stays indoors.
And so I really really resonated with that. And then
I also resonated with the fact that being at Notre
Dame the Catholic religion is is such a strong religion
that there's a lot of passion there, you know, and
(05:53):
they really love God. And they never forced me, though
to participate in anything that I wasn't uncomforable, that I
wasn't comfortable with participating in. So I remember specifically my
junior year had all my family come up. Now there
are parts of my family that are members of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints and some
that aren't, and I remember those that were. We went
to this place called the Grotto. I don't know if
(06:14):
you've ever been there, Ben, but it's a place where
they have all the candles in the cave right. And
one of my uncles, who who's whose Mormons, said something
very profound. He said, Man, I don't care what religion
he belonged to. When you step on these these grounds,
you know they're holy. And that's something that if that
always carried with me when I was at Notre Dame,
was saying what was what made us the same? And
there's a lot of beautiful things about that campus. There's
(06:36):
a lot of beautiful things about the people there, and
again it's it's a place that I call home, and
it's a place that I keep very very dear to me.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
I remember, you know, when you and I are similar
in age. I remember when you were playing at Ure
Dame though, that was always it felt like a discussion,
you know, kind of how did this happen? And how
does it work? And there was always this like you know,
you obviously were talked about a lot, but this aura
around you because you were leading a team to a
(07:05):
perfect season. You're the Heisman Trophy runner up. You you know,
I grew up an Indiana and Purdue fan. Notre Dame
was not the team I was cheering for.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
But I will tell you.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Notre Dame has a fan base that is passionate in
a way that I've never really seen other than maybe
some SEC schools. They're passionate to where this is what
they live and breathe every day. So how often back
then were you answering the questions and feeling like you
had to explain yourself of coming from the Church of
(07:40):
Latter day Saints into the Catholic university because you know
so much of this conversation I want to get into,
you know, your personal story, but I want to help
understand how to bridge the gap of how did you
explain it, how did you come to terms with it?
It would feel very uncomfortable in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
To me.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Well, I think what's beautiful is you talk about that gap, right, Ben,
there's not that big of a gap, And I think
that's what it's important. When people think of the Church
of Jesus Christ, a lot of they say they think
of it as this huge gap between this Christian belief
in that one when in actuality it's almost so much
of it overlaps with each other. And so number one,
(08:22):
I wouldn't get asked the question a lot when I
was there, And if I did get answer ask the question,
I said, you know, the guy who you believe is God,
I believe.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
In the same guy.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
You know who the guy who you believe as a
savior of the world. And Jesus Christ, I believe in
the same guy. You know who we worship here, Notre
Dame Mary. I believe in the same woman. And so
there were again the similarities between what I believe and
what they believe.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
It became what we.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Believe, right, And so that there weren't a lot of
conversations like that, but those that were being had, people
start to realize like, oh wow, I didn't realize that
you believe the same thing that we believe.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I was like, yeah, the Bible you read, I read
the same thing. You know, it's just we.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
We I think there's there's a if there's a thing
in society and you know this, Ben, if you believe
something different than me, then we can't get along. It's like,
that's that's not the case here. Like I believe in
the same thing in you, but maybe from a different angle,
and that's totally fine. And so there are a lot
of beautiful conversations that I had while there with certain people.
(09:29):
But again, because the people at Notre Dame were so amazing,
I never really had to have those during my four
years in South in Indiana.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
In a bit, I want to dive into those angles,
if you don't mind, I want to dive in when
you see coming at it from a different angle. But
I can't help but notice, you know, when this time
together was set up, I had a lot of things
I wanted to talk to you about. But then obviously,
as you get the rundown, so much of it is
about the picture behind you. I you know, I didn't
(10:01):
know how deep into you know the things that happened
in under Dame and some of the things that people,
all of a sudden we're talking about, not only in
pop culture but also on now your your employer ESPN
was about this story that was unfolding while you were
at Notre Dame. It's interesting me, I think I want
(10:23):
to start. I wasn't planning on this, but like you
have it behind you, the things that sit behind your
things I am proud of, or things that I want
to be asked about. For those that are listening and
not watching, there's a poster of the untold docuseries about
your time at Notre Dame and the scandal that came out.
(10:46):
I don't know if I can call it even a scandal.
It was just a very interesting time in your life.
So let's start with why I do have the poster
behind you.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, well, there's.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
The reason why I have this one here and then
this So this was my pop Warner jersey. So the
reason why I have both over two shoulders is I
wouldn't have gotten through this if it wasn't for this
kid and then this kid over my left shoulder, the
one who wore the Pop Warner Jersey would be proud
of the person that came out of that, the man
(11:18):
that came out of that documentary, the man that went
through what he went through with the whole catfishing scheme.
So there's a reason why I have these two specifically
over man and obviously have my Notre Dame diploma right below,
but I have these two specifically for that to remind
myself that that little boy that once wore that jersey
helped this young man to get through what he went through.
(11:40):
But the healing of that little boy allowed this man
to be who he is. And so there's a reason
why I had those there. But it's something that I'm
very very proud of why because the journey ben that
I had to take, not just as the time of
events happened with the catfishing thing, but to go through
everything again to make that documentary happen, there was a
(12:03):
level of healing that I didn't know that I needed
to embark on that naturally happened when I'm going through
all the old text messages, listening to the voicemails, talking
to people that are around during that time, and at
that time, I'm a married man already, you know what
I mean, and so I'm going through that in the
conversations that I was having with my wife about Hey,
(12:26):
I don't know what's going to be required of me
in this ordeal, but I know that there's gonna be
some dark stuff that are going to come up, and
I'm asking you to please have some grace with me,
to be as be patient. Now, my wife was such
a star worth of individual during that time that I
wouldn't have gotten through this with it had it not
been for a whole bunch of individuals, specifically my wife.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
If you don't mind, I just want to spend a
few minutes kind of diving into this. And it's not
as much about the details. I think people can watch
the documentary, they can read about the details of this.
But you were a college student at the time and
the world was forming opinions. What was the biggest gap
between how people perceived you during that time and perceive
(13:12):
the situation and the actual reality to what was happening.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Well, there there was a narrative that I created it.
There was a narrative that I created this this whole
story to boost draft stock, to boost some awards. I mean,
I was up for the Heisman that year and everybody,
you know, there was a there, there was this narrative
(13:38):
that hey, MAT'SI created this whole thing so that he
would look better in the eyes fans of NFL scouts,
whatever it was. And the whole time it was understanding
and knowing thats like I had nothing to do with this, right,
and there was there there there there was this thin.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Line bend where we had to come together.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
And the representatives that I had at that time, we're saying, hey, listen,
it's either I think you should just let this thing
kind of blow over, not knowing that we're in this
transition period in social media where it's either you control
the narrative or the narrative controls you. And because we
were in this gray area, nobody knew what to do.
(14:19):
My case was kind of the first biggest case of
this kind of this nature that you know, people are like, well,
since we don't know how to handle it, just this
kind of just be quiet.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And hopefully this thing blows over.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Well it didn't, and it took it took a mind
of its own, and it just went and it just
snowbought and and it it went downhill fast, and I
think it was all part of the plan, though, Ben,
because the journey that I had to go through, the
trip from the I would call it, and you know
this the summits of the human experience, right, There's there's
(14:53):
certain altitudes that you can get in life where you know,
like dang, I'm at the top and the experience of
the Jurassic fall from that altitude to what I now
know as the rock bottom of what people will call as.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
A rock bottom of life.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
That experience, Ben, allows me, number one, to have a
deeper sense of empathy for people that are going through things.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
And I equated a lot to lifting weights.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Whatever weight you can lift, whatever weight I can lift,
or anybody that's listening and watching this. It may be
all different, but the strain under that weight is the same,
right whatever it is like when I'm trying to max out.
It may be a different weight than you, but the
emotions and the pain and the push it's the same.
And so that fall from that summit to rock bottom
(15:43):
is going to be the same for me as it
will be another individual. So that allows me to be
able to put myself in their shoes and getting spiritual
about it. I got a very close intimate knowledge of
what just an inkling of what the same could have
went through when he was in the garden at guestsemony,
like the plan of the toonement, and being able to
(16:07):
feel what people felt, to be able to take their pains,
their you know, their sicknesses and all of that.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
In a very very small, small micro way.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I could feel what other people felt and be able
to help them. And so I'm not saying that I'm
I experienced what Christ did, because it ain't. Nobody experienced that,
but I got to feel that for the first time
of my life, and I was.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
I was very grateful for that opportunity. It wasn't comfortable, though,
I imagine.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
I mean I'm hearing you and you are. I mean,
I don't want to overemphasize it or underemphasize it, but
you are at the top, Like you are the Heisman
Trophy runner up as a linebacker.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Unheard of.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah, I mean, that's that's an incredible accomplishment. You're leading
one of the most passionate fan bases and one of
the most historic teams to an undefeated season. You are
the face of this university at the time, and you
had this what you described as a drastic fall as
(17:09):
a human though. I mean, yes, you're a football player,
people know you from that, but you're human as you fall.
I have two parts of this. Who's gathering around you?
And how are you gripping onto anything to find stability?
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Number one, who's gathering around me? So this is the
beautiful part that there's beauty in the thorns of this thing.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Ben.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So when you're at the pinnacle, when you're at the summit,
there's a lot of people in your ear, and you
know that you have a big entourage, right. Everybody wants
to be attached to you. Everybody wants to be associated
with you. And for a young kid at that age,
if you're telling me things that I want to hear,
I'm going to bring you into this entourage.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
So at the height of everything, that entourage for me,
Ben was pretty huge. Now, within that entourage, not everybody,
probably a majority of them aren't really for you. The
beautiful part about that fall is all those people that
weren't for you scatter, right, they leave. The only ones
that are there for you are the ones that are
(18:19):
actually they actually love you. And I'll tell you my siblings,
my parents, and about less than ten individuals outside of
my immediate family.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
There were people that were I have blood relation too
that I saw scatter, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
So that for me was the biggest eye opening experience
of Okay, now I know who's really actually for me.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
But the only one that can save you from that
is the Savior. That's it.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
I learned that there are a lot of things at
the Summit that can.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Make you happy.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
There are a lot of things that can get you excited.
Being on a private jet that's exciting, Going into a
Rose Royce that's super cool. Being able to have access
to all of these different luxuries, walk into a really
nice resort that is cool.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
But one thing that.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
I learned was there's a difference between happiness and peace,
and peace can only come from one place, and that's
from God, and that's it. And once I learned that difference,
that's what changed everything. And I think that's what I
learned when I finally hit rock bottom and then that
silence down there.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
It's rock bottom.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Is a very quiet place, but it's a very loud
place because the voices in your head are the ones
that's screaming at you the most. And I'll never forget
Ray Lewis said something when he was going through what
he went through, and he was in jail, and he said,
for the first time he heard God say can you
hear me now? And I swear I heard those same
exact words when I was down there telling me can
you hear me now? I think a lot of the
(19:59):
times I got stuck and listening to what the world
was trying to tell me and say, Matt, how you're this,
You're great, You're awesome.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Blah blah blah, You're my hero, You're my role.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Model, that I started to mute out God trying to
direct me, you know, And I think sometimes God is
kind enough to say, okay, well, if I have to
remind you, I'll remind you. And oftentimes it's not in
a way that you would want it.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
The whole process here, I'm assuming, has required you, as
you've gotten older in life, to offer a lot of
forgiveness something you know that God has called us to
not only forgiveness for the person behind the cat fishing,
(20:43):
but the people that scattered.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Can you explain a.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Little bit about what that processes look like and how
you've allowed people back in. Maybe you haven't based on wisdom,
but what does the process of forgiveness look like to you?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Well, forgiveness, I think there's layers to it. Number One,
my life I was such an I was in a
miserable place ben that I needed to forgive selfishly for
me because I needed to let that anger go. It
was I was letting something faster that another individual wasn't
(21:20):
actively doing to me. But because I had held onto
this rage and this revenge, I learned the beauties of
forgivenesses I had to let it go so that I
can move on with my life. Number two was as
I started to practice the things that we were taught
in church about being able to forgive. I went on
(21:42):
that journey again with what Christ did? I mean you
hear the acronym WWJD. What would Jesus do?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Like, okay, what would Jesus do? And I got very
intimate with what he would actually do because we knew
what he would do and every aspect of his life,
whether he was when he was hanging from the cross
and says forgive them, Father, for they know not what
they do. Those words and that picture of him doing
that in those circumstances taught somebody like me who was
(22:08):
in I just got made fun of, right, I had
memes made fun of. So when you start to compare
the two, it's like Manti yours even compare to the
greatest man to ever walk on earth. And that happened
to him, and he could forgive those who just did
the most heinous things to him. Why can't you forgive?
The third part of it was, I don't want to
(22:31):
go to the next life and meet my maker and
he tell me, you know all the times you got
on your knees and you asked me to forgive you,
yet you couldn't forgive that person. I didn't want to
be the hypocrite then, and so I went through those
three stages.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Now.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
For the first one was a very surface level. I
needed forgive so I can move on. And as I
got deeper into the forgiveness journey was Okay, I profess
to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter day Saints. I profess to be a follower
of Jesus Christ. If I am going to be a
follower of Jesus Christ, what did he do? And learning
(23:12):
what he did and why he did it? And once
I did that, that's what helped lead my steps into
the forgiveness process, but I'll add this bend. The biggest
change in my life was when I learned that the
person that also needs forgiveness is yourself. When I learned
(23:34):
that that little boy, the one that wore this jersey,
needed to know that it wasn't his fault, that the
acts of this man and what happened to this man
wasn't this little boy's fault. That's when that man I
could unleash. I could take the shackles off of the
father that I needed to be, of the husband that
(23:54):
I needed to be, of the son that I needed
to be.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
And that's when I formed.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I literally transformed into the person who I am today,
understanding that I needed to forgive that little boy and
tell them, man, tie, it's okay, bro, It's not your fault.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
What happened to you is not your fault. It's okay.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Once I forgave all parties, myself included, that's when I
became a different story for me.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
You brought up the memes and the you know, the
making fun of I'd say bowling or whatever. It's it's
kind of even weird for me to put bowling you
in the same sentence because of who you are in
your background. But I'm curious myself and then also for
maybe the parent that's listening or the kid that's listening
(24:39):
to this. I'm sure during that time, right you just
get drafted. You'd mentioned publicly before that there was a
lot of anxiety around your time in the NFL and
kind of mentally kind of what you're processing.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
But I'm sure being.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
In locker rooms growing up myself, people were bringing this up,
you were hearing about it. How did you walk through that?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
It?
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Maybe if you could answer that in like the most
realistic way for that kid that's getting something, you know,
said to him in the locker room and he's getting
reminded of one of the most painful moments of his
life over and over and over again, while still trying
to make friends and still trying to hang out with people,
and still trying to play a sport.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
How did you do that? You know? In your early twenties,
I failed multiple times.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
There was a very three years exactly been where it
didn't matter what people said to me. Who I thought
myself to be was nonexistent, you know, So I remember
what I would do every morning was outstare at myself
in the mirror and what I in my apartment that.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I had in San Diego.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I started to pace little quotes on my mirror and
I would have a book and I entireed the book
Dear Matt Tie on it. Every time my parents and
my family members would come up to watch a game,
I would ask them to write me something in there.
And it really was ben for me to help reintroduce
myself to me to the people that I felt knew
(26:14):
me the most. But I would look at myself in
the mirror every morning and I would say these words.
I say, Man, tiw you're that dude. And I tell
you Ben, when I first started doing that, I thought
of myself as a fraud. I said, you're you don't
even believe that.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Bro, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
And so I remember during my career, and I was
only doing this for superficial reasons, Ben, I was doing
this so that I could play better because I was
experiencing I was experiencing such high anxiety on the football
field that I was a shell of myself my first
three years in NFL. And so I was like, man,
I need to play better, So I need to figure
all of this stuff out. While the memes were coming out.
(26:52):
Teammates were saying stuff, opponents were saying stuff, fans would
say stuff behind me.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
And it wasn't until my.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Fourth year where I went through the forgiveness process when
that's what changed everything for me. Ben that once I
forgave the person that did it to me, once I
forgave the little boy, all of that stuff that people
said never mattered from that point on. Why Because I knew.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Exactly who these two people were.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Right, you could have an opinion about me, and that's fine,
but the opinion that I have of myself is you
cannot change that because the opinion that I formulated from
there was at square one. It was from rock bottom.
It was from I just came out the womb, and
this is who I am. That's the picture, and that's
(27:45):
how solid of an image that I had of who
I was. It was not Manti the football player. It
was not Manti the boy from Holly. It wasn't Manti
the boy that went It was a Heisman Trophy finalist,
a guy that played it, and it was none of that.
It was My name is matt Anti Tell and this
is who Mantai is. He's the son of Brian and
Otelia Telo. He's a son of God, and that's where
(28:06):
it starts, and that's where it ended. Everything else after
that band is to be determined. But from there I
determined that not you. And so for those people that
are maybe struggling with hearing what people are saying, maybe
number one, listen to what this guy is saying, and
then listen to what the Savior is trying to tell you,
because those yourself and the man above is the only
(28:30):
two people that can create an individual that is true,
is completely immovable. And once that happened, Ben, I was
told that's when I said, you could not beat me
at that point. And I've shared this with my wife
a couple of times, and bless her heart, she never
knew me when I was in college, so she didn't know.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
About my career there. But I always joke at her.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I said, listen, if the man who who you know
had the abilities of the young man that played there,
it would have been a totally different story, because this
one isn't swayed by the praise or by the critics.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
He's the saying regardless, swaye by the praise or the critics.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
I just had somebody in my life recently say people
are gonna throw roses and stones at your feet, pick
up neither.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Oh that's powerful.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
I've kept that with me now for the six months
after she's given me that piece of wisdom. And it's
James things. As we kind of close up the conversation
on this, have you ever confronted the catfisher? And what
does that look like? I'm maybe just personally curious.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
I've never confronted the person who catfished me, and I
can only imagine what it would look like.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
It would be.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Matter of fact, I'll share with you this story I
was actually in and this is what I shared with
the psychologist that I met when I when I knew
i'd forgiven the person.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
I was at a high school All.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
American game in Oceanside, California in twenty fourteen, fifteen ish,
and I was standing in the end zone. I was
asked to make an appearance. So I'm there, I'm cheering
on everybody. Everything is great, and I see this young
lady and she's I'm in the end zone. She's on
(30:26):
the sideline and she's next to what looked like her father,
and her father was like in a wheelchair and I'm
looking at this young lady. Ben I'm like, that girl
looks familiar, but I've never seen that girl before. I've
never met that girl before, as matter of fact. And
one of my best friends at the time, some big
play happened and he came in front of me and
(30:46):
he's looking.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
He's hyping, and he's like, man, did you see that?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
But he could see that I'm just fixated on this girl,
and he was like, bro, what's the matter? And I said,
that girl right there and I pointed it right to her.
I was like, that girl looks familiar, but I know
that I've never met her. And I remember his face
changes and he goes, bro, we we can leave right now.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I said, well, what's the whole deal?
Speaker 1 (31:11):
He is like that that girl right there is a
sister of the person that cat fished you. I was like,
oh interesting. I was like, and when where's that individual at.
He's like, well, I heard that that person is over
there on the other side with a booth that's taking
pictures on the other side of the field. He's like,
but we can go right now. And I remember at
(31:32):
that time then I knew. I said, you know what
I'm okay. So are you sure. I was like, I'm good.
He's like, are just let you know? I said no,
I'm okay. So how would it would look. I wouldn't know,
but it wouldn't Maybe a handshake and say, hey man,
I wish you all the best, you know, whatever it is.
(31:52):
I know what it feels like to have people say
things about me. I know it feels like to have
people have negative things be said about me, and to
have negative thoughts about myself.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
I wish you peace, I wish you nothing but the best,
and we'd move on, you know.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
And so I I've had that kind of experience right
knowing that I was in the same proximity as an
individual and had.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
No your ill feelings towards towards that person.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
As we make the switch, I can only imagine you
have this mindset because of your faith. I don't. I
don't think that comes naturally to somebody. But it feels peaceful.
It is peaceful. It is the best way to live
in a place of forgiveness. But obviously there was healing
(32:36):
that had to take place. You mentioned it earlier, and
I promised you would get back to it. As we
talked about your time at Notre Dame. You talked about
coming at it from a different angle. I think was
your the way you said it. And obviously, in another
life that I live, I do host a pop culture
show that talks about the bachelor and the bachelorette, and
that's been all over the news recently because the recent
(32:58):
Bachelorette was a part of the Secret Lives of Mormon
Wives show. That season is not airing because of things
happening outside of the Bachelorette and some accusations and some
court filings and some case filings that have happened. So
I think you know, as we've I've broken down that
(33:19):
whole situation on my show and broken down the Secret
Lives of Mormon Wives show that's out there on Hulu.
There's been a lot of people commenting on one may
be saying, hey, thanks for trying to walk through this
in a respectful way, and other people coming at it
and being like, hey, all this stuff is crazy. I
can't believe you've been covering it. But I have you
(33:39):
with me today and I thought we could spend a
few minutes kind of walking through your upbringing in the
Church of and also your understanding of the misconceptions out there. Okay,
and so you I'll start with this. You said you
went to Notre Dame. There's so many similarities, but you're
(34:01):
just coming at it from a different angle. I love
if maybe we could just start with you elaborating on
what you mean by that.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Well, I learned that you know, with in the in
the Church of Jesus Christ Latter day Saints, we have sacrament,
which is what in Catholic institution is communion. Right, it's
it's a way for us to come. We we we
say a prayer, we take the sacrament of bread and
and water, and in Catholic culture it's it's it's bread
and wine, and so for me it's they they believe
(34:32):
in Jesus Christ as a savor of of of the world,
which we believe in the Son of God.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
And then married.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
So again there was just there wasn't really much different.
They have confession. We we we meet with our with
our beach, with our bishop and and our church leaders
to help us go through the repentance process to figure
out how can we overcome the weaknesses that we have. Right,
and there are some weaknesses that we may need assistance on. Right,
if if I and if I need help in fixing
(35:01):
my language, I think I can do that on my own.
If there's other things that I may suffer from. Some
people suffer from pornography, some people suffer from drug addiction,
whatever it is that could need some assistance, right, And
so I think confession allows number one people to get
that out there, right, to acknowledge that, man, this is
an issue that I have, and then also having the
(35:23):
support system around us to have that happen. So there's
that similarities between the two religions. But the spirituality aspect,
the reference about how we worship now is very very
similar when it came to the Catholic institution and when
it came to the bus as a church of jujuis
Christ the Latter Saints. And I've got family members that
(35:43):
are just they don't go to Catholic institution or Mormon industry.
They just go to a Christian church and the praise
is all the same. I've actually seen some sacrament meetings
in our church be a little bit more upbeat and
a little more like almost like a Baptist church where
there's back and forth, and I was like, oh, this
is cool as long as I can feel the Spirit.
(36:04):
I think the spirit is a language that is felt
beyond borders, right, It's there's when when the Spirit overcomes you.
It's just this feeling that you get where you know
that what you're hearing and what you're experiencing comes from
one source, and it's it's confirming that for you. And
there's been many times where I've sat at the grotto.
(36:26):
There's many many times where I've been listening to a preacher.
I listened to Philip Anthony Mitchell.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
On on on on on on.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Podcasts, and I love what he talks about it. There's
just certain things that happen where I think the Spirit
confirms me, like, hey, this is this is true. That
happens almost often when I'm in church and when I'm
when I go to church with the Church of just Christ,
lettery Saints, and that's what I That's one thing that
I always can count on when when I go to church,
(36:55):
I have this very clear path of what is important
and what isn't. And I think sometimes when I get
lost in a shuffle, it's always a good reminder of
trying to decipher what direction I should take my family,
especially now that I have a wife and kids.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
You are a husband and a father.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
Yeah, you know, as this is popped up in pop
culture and as people are talking about faith more, what
are some of the biggest misconceptions. I mean, that's kind
of a hard question because I don't know how familiar
are with you know, the conversations that exist outside of
But at least when I say the word misconception and
(37:31):
you think about the Church, the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter day Saints, what are some things that pop
into your head that maybe you just wish you could
talk through.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah, well, maybe help me on this, ben. So one
of I've heard is that we think Joseph Smith is
a god or God and that's not true or the
reason why our name is the way it is, and
there has been an encouragement and an emphasis on saying
(38:01):
from Mormon to Church of Jesus Christ. A lot of
these saints, like the reason why there was an emphasis
emphasis of this from from our prophet was so that
people understand what we're about. It's in the name, it's
Church of Jesus Christ. That's who we follow, and it
starts there and it ends there. The second thing that
(38:22):
I've heard, and I've actually watched two documentaries about it
and it's it's pretty wild. Was the plural marriage aspect
of it, that's not something that we do maybe that
whether that was in the past or what, that's not
something that we do today. I have one wife. I
love my wife. I don't need another wife. I love
(38:45):
my children. I tried every day to be the best
husband that I can be. What's another one? No alcohol.
That's one thing that we do, uh, we do practice
is we don't drink alcohol. There are those that do.
Like everybody, there there are people that have weaknesses and
there are people with that. People they're they're trying to
(39:07):
fight through things, and that's okay, and that's why we
always try to be open and be encouraging and be
supportive of those that are are are fighting through some
of the weaknesses that they have. What's another thing and
the others that's kind of like then the ones that
I think can think, I mean, I think that's right now.
(39:30):
You covered a lot of the ones at least are
the hot topics, right the you know is their plural
wives or plural spouses. I think the relationship to Joseph
Smith you covered that. I think in closing here, I
think if you you've you've touched on it so much,
(39:51):
but I think it would be the one thing that
the question that's been asked so much is what is
your relationship to Jesus Christ?
Speaker 2 (39:58):
What is your view of Jesus.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
And and how do you hold Jesus compared to you know,
I really think and maybe people will correct me, but
I think if you're not a part of the church,
I think a big question would be what is the
how do you hold Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, Like,
what's what are the two of those look like? Are
they side by side to your you know, your faith
(40:22):
system and your faith tradition. And I think maybe even
if that's like crazy elementary level, like that's wild that
you'd even ask that question, you think it sits out
there perfect.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Jesus Christ is a savor of the world.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Jesus Christ is a son of God who came in
a tone for all of our sins. He is a
way the truth and the lights. He's a way back
to Heaven. Joseph Smith is equivalent. He's a prophet. He's
the equivalent to Noah. He's equivalent to Joseph was sold
into Egypt He's the equivalent to Elijah, Elisha.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
All the the prophets of Oh.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
That's who we see Joseph as as a prophet. We
still believe that we have the abilities to hear what
the Lord wants from wants of us through the prophets today.
So Joseph is a prophet. We don't look at to
him as a savior. He doesn't replace Jesus. He was
(41:20):
just somebody who was very very instrumental in establishing what
we believe God's Christ's Gospel was when he first came
to came to the earth and what he was trying
to teach. He brought that in its full entirety back
to the world during that time. So that's who we
see Joseph Smith as a very very important person. But
(41:41):
in regards to Jesus, the Savior of the world, nobody,
nobody compares to him. Jesus is the leader of our church.
The prophet is just a mouthpiece as to which we
hear what we think, what we believe.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
The Lord wants us to do.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
So I think that's that's the simplest way for me
to kind of distinguish that. I think if people, if
we were a church that thought Joseph Smith was Jesus,
it would have been the Church of Joseph Smith the Latter
day Saints, you know what I mean. But it's a
Church of Jesus Christ. And I'm very grateful that I
believe it was Prophet President Monson who emphasized that of Hey, listen,
(42:25):
let's I know we're called Mormons, lds all of that stuff,
but let's emphasize the Church of Jesus Christ the Latter
day Saints. And I think it was in preparation to
help convey who really is at the head of our church,
and it's Jesus Christ.
Speaker 4 (42:40):
I think it's always dangerous you kind of mentioned at
the beginning when there's a lack of understanding and a
lack of perspective, people make judgments, they create the rumors.
And I think no matter what faith tradition you're a
part of, I think having an understanding of everybody's walks
of life will help make the more intelligent, educated decisions
(43:01):
and spread love further. And so I appreciate you educating
and allowing me to ask probably the questions that if
anybody on it was a part of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. They'll be like, that's
the craziest question I've ever heard. Ask I appreciate you. No, No,
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
Bro.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
I want to say, Bro, it's it's I love these conversations.
I love when there is a dialogue right of differences, right,
and I love the fact that somebody who or a
group of people that may not understand, instead of sitting
there but like, well, I don't understand that I don't
like it, they have the love to sit down and
(43:41):
be like, hey, bro, I don't understand what you guys do.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Let's let's talk about it.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Because just like that documentary did for me, where there
wasn't there was a misconception or there are certain things
out there that were being said about that guy, whatever
it may be, that it created this narrative about that
individe that people are like, I don't like that guy.
Oh that's a bad dude, or this, And then the
(44:05):
doctor manary came out and people are like, oh my gosh,
now I understand what the heck happened.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Now I understand all the details.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
I think this is what we've been able to do
at a small degree with the short amount of times
that you and I had out there. It's like, Hey,
there's all of these narratives about the Church of Jesus
Christ Alatter day Saints. Let's let's talk about it. Let's
talk about some of the details of it, Let's talk
about some of your beliefs. And as we talk about it,
I think there are a lot of people that are like, oh, man,
I didn't know that, or hey, man, that's cool, and
(44:32):
see a lot of the similarities between what they already
believe in.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
I agree with you.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
I think it is one of the things that I
hope we can get back to in this world is
sitting and having conversations that matter and listening more than
we talk, and talking about each other's experiences and goodness, gracious,
you could give a masterclass and what it is to
be on the mountaintop, to be humbled, to pick yourself
(44:57):
back up and continue on and become I'm a father
and a husband, and I think through the way, and
I don't the moment in this conversation where I said,
there's somebody out there that's going to be listening to this,
who is getting reminded over and over again of one
of the most painful seasons of their life and they're
(45:18):
getting made fun of or they're getting picked at, and
they don't know where to turn, and they feel like
they need to give up, that this isn't worth it
any longer. Because as you're a young person, obviously you
know you and I can probably look back on that
time and remember how easy it would have been to
say this, the whole thing is not worth it. I
would love for you as we close, just because I
(45:41):
think you could give the masterclass, give that message one
more time to the person. Maybe they're the adult dealing
with it, maybe they're the kid dealing with it, but
they're feeling the way of the world and they don't
know where to turn, they don't know what's next. What
would you say to them?
Speaker 1 (46:00):
There was one scripture that I memorized that my father
had me memorize from the Book of Mormon. It's a
book that we believe in our church is another testament
of the life of Jesus Christ. It said book in
first chapter three, verse seven, is say, and it came
to pass that I need if I said, unto my father,
I'll go and do the things which the Lord has.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Commended me for.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
I know that basically that there's nothing that the Lord
will command me to do that he hasn't already prepared
a way for me to do it. For those that
are going through something, number one, understand that God wouldn't
call you to do something that he didn't equip you
to be able to carry the cross that he's asking
you to carry. He knows that you have the strength
(46:42):
to do it. Number two is we all have Google Maps.
We all when we're trying to go to a destination,
we type in the coordinates and sometimes.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Various routes pop up.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
I think oftentimes God causes us to go through certain
things so that when somebody else asks to go to
a certain coordinate that you've gone to, that hopefully your
path will illuminate on their map. And so for those
that are going through trying times when life gets hard,
walking on your own two feet, walking on your knees,
(47:15):
and I promise you you'll get the strength that you need.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
To number one, endure and number two.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
To get the perspective of what the true meaning to
this burden is and what it's creating for you and
for those that are coming after you. And so it
isn't easy. That's number one. For anybody that says that
it is hasn't born that way yet. Number two, there
is somebody that has felt exactly what you're feeling at
(47:41):
this very moment, and his name is Jesus Christ. When
he knelt down in that garden of Gassemite and he
took upon himself the sins of the world, he also
took upon himself all the pains, all the sickness or
the disease or the depression, everything that the human could
ever experience, he took upon himself in that moment. And
that was something that I clung onto. It was I
(48:01):
know that there may not be anybody that knows how
I feel, but I know that there's one, and I
can pray to him at all times, at any time
of the day. And I did that often, and because
I did, he gave me the strength to endure. And
I know that he'll give you the strength to endure
as well. And I hope that the people that come
after you will be able to again type in those
coordinates to the goals and the things that they want
to achieve in life. And I'm sure your path to
(48:23):
illuminate on their map as well.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Monte.
Speaker 4 (48:26):
Thank you so much. I appreciate your time, your ability
to have conversations that matter, your ability and desire to
help others through your story, and if people want more
of you, they can. I think the announcement just came
out right that you're gonna you're on ESPN now.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Yeah, yeah, they.
Speaker 4 (48:47):
Can watch you on ESPN probably starting win. Is it already,
you know, has it already already?
Speaker 2 (48:53):
We're already going April first? Yeah, April first, we're kicking
and we're rolling.
Speaker 4 (48:57):
Congratulations to that, best to you and your family. Thanks
for joining us today. Thank you, Ben, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
Brother.
Speaker 4 (49:05):
Hey friends, thanks for listening or watching.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Would you take a second, follow.
Speaker 4 (49:09):
Subscribe, and drop a comment.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
It really helps
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