June 15, 2026 • 52 mins
In this conversation, the former White House Press Secretary, Fox News anchor, and bestselling author Dana Perino joins Ben Higgins to talk about the unglamorous middle of an ambitious life: the quarter-life crisis, the yeses that change everything, and why worry might be the most wasted emotion we have.
We cover:
- The moment President Bush asked her "What's wrong?" — and changed her career
- How she said yes to becoming Press Secretary in a single second
- Why mentorship works better as conversation than contract
- The "epidemic of interruption" and what listening actually requires
- Her new novel Purple State, and why she wrote a political book without politics
- Faith, humility, and praying silently for strangers on the subway
Dana's perspective is grounded, specific, and refreshingly free of partisan noise. If you're in a season of figuring out what's next — or wondering if you're behind — this one's worth your time.
Dana's new book "Purple State" is available wherever books are sold!
Subscribe for more conversations like this one.
CHAPTERS
00:32 Welcome to If You Can Hear Me
01:11 Why mentorship matters now
05:35 Bush's "what's the worst that could happen"
08:11 The yes that made her press secretary
14:41 Staying excited in a new chapter
19:51 Meeting Peter on a plane
23:16 Humility vs. imposter syndrome
30:06 Inside Purple State's characters
34:39 The epidemic of interruption
40:24 Don't worry your 20s away
44:06 Silent prayers on the subway
49:53 Who Purple State is really for
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I want you to sit here and ask yourself, what's
the worst thing that could happen if you started your.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Own pr firm.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I wrote a book that I would want to read.
It was in that second that I said yes. For
the first time in my life. I have finally gotten
to a point where I'm not looking too far ahead.
Don't think we are as polarized as the media thinks
we are, or as our phones try to make us be.
If you get off your phone and you are just
(00:28):
neighborly with others, your life's going to be much more enjoyable.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Welcome to if you can hear me, a space where
culture meets the soul.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
I'm Ben Higgins.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
You may know me from The Bachelor, and you may
know my guests from culture, headlines and entertainment. This podcast
is about going beyond the surface into something deeper. Each
week we sit down for open conversations about identity, faith,
and the realities underneath it all. At its heart, this
podcast is about creating space for people to slow down
(00:59):
and beak freely. Not polished interviews are perfect answers, just
real discussions that are unfiltered. I invite you to lean
in and enjoy the conversation Dana Perino.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I've been very excited to talk to you. Thanks for
jumping on.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
If you can hear me, I can hear you perfectly,
and I've been looking forward to this as well.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
It's great to connect.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I mentioned before we jumped on. We have a lot
of things in common. You love and are from Denver,
and that's where I currently live. But you're out of
New York City now right. Yes, if you're unfamiliar with
the success and resume of Dana, it's pretty incredible. It's
very incredible, very well accomplished New York Times bestselling author.
(01:45):
And we're here today to talk about a lot of
things expanding from faith to everyday life. And I want
to start in kind of prepping for this. One of
the things that I thought was really fascinating, and you
don't hear it too often outside of the church at
least and from my experience, but I've heard you talk
about a lot is mentorship, and it's one of the
(02:07):
things that I think that we need more today than ever.
If I could kick off this conversation by asking you, like,
in a time where everybody's saying we're super divisive, things
are chaotic, nobody can talk to anybody. Would mentorship be
a solution in your mind?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
A great question, and thank you for asking it, and
thanks for having me on your show. I did mention
to a couple of friends and I got to have
this opportunity, and they're like, you get to talk to Ben.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I'm like, I do.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
So you know, mentorship is something interesting. I think for
some people it comes quite naturally. And what I've learned
over the years is that I sought out mentors who
are willing participants.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
In my life.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
So I look back and one of the people that
comes to mind is my original speech team coach, Terry
Rich from Ponderosa High School, and she was a great
role model for me and open doors, very encouraging. I
ended up going to college at the University of Southern
Colorado on a speech team scholarship, and while there there
(03:22):
were several mentors. Sam ever saw all my professors. Professors
can also be mentors. I believe your teachers are your
first mentors. Fast forward and then I become the White
House Press Secretary and I'm leaving and I'm asked over
and over again if I can get coffee with all
of these young women in Washington, DC, and I was
(03:42):
just like, there's too many to I don't have that
much time for coffee, and there's an insatiable demand and
a supply and demand problem. It's out of whack. And
when it comes to the desire for mentoring and the
number of people who are available to do it. I
also think that because of corporate America and for some reason,
(04:03):
people started to believe that you had to have some
sort of formal mentoring relationship, like it had to be
written in paper that you are my mentor and you're
going to do these things for me, and it became
kind of transactional. I don't believe in that. So what
I ended up doing was creating something that would help
me with my time management. And it was like speed dating,
(04:24):
but mentoring for young professional women. And the reason I
did that is because I don't have all the answers,
so I would set up other mentors. But what I
found is a lot of people, especially at that quarter
life crisis age, they all have the same questions variations
on a theme.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
There's about ten basic questions.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
And by doing that all in one place, getting advice
from lots of different people from different walks of life,
different areas of expertise that you could really help people
feel better. It's not necessarily that your mentor is going
to tell you, Okay, if you do the next three things,
then you too will become White House Press secretary. Now
(05:05):
people want that, and we want that in different parts
of our lives, Like if you do these three things,
you are going to meet the man of your dreams.
If you do these three things, you were going to
have all the money you ever need. That's not how
this works. How life works. You have to be able
to have a bigger plan, and I'm sure we'll talk
about that as well. But the mentoring side of things
has been a great joy to me, and it's also
(05:28):
been a way for me to connect with other humans
in a non partisan way, which is something I crave.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Do you still lean on mentors for you personally or
are you yes? Sure? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So one of my great mentors was President George W.
Bush and I got to see him last week. We're talking.
This is mid May. So I saw him in Dallas
and he's a great man. He loves career counseling and
his dad was very good at it as well. And
I remember about fifteen years ago when I first left
(06:05):
the White House, I joined a PR firm, and as
I was signing my name on the contract, I felt
like it was the wrong move for me, but I
didn't know what else to do. Six months later, I
had to go to Dallas for something and I walked
in to see him and he didn't say hello.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
He said what's wrong and I was like, oh, nothing,
I'm fine. He said, no, what's wrong?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
And I told him I didn't love the PR firm,
but I didn't know what else I could do. And
he said, well, why don't you just start your own?
And I had a hundred reasons why I didn't think
I could. And he said, well, I want you to
sit here and ask yourself, what's the worst thing that
could happen if you started your own PR firm. So
I started to list the things and he said, okay,
(06:48):
so you're telling me that the worst thing that could
happen if you start your own PR firm is that
it fails and you have to go back and work
for another PR firm. That's the worst thing that.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Could happen to you. And he was right.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
And I used that line, which is not just specific
to George Bush. I think a lot of mentors will
ask younger people if you can picture in your mind
what is the worst possible thing that could happen, and
you imagine what the best possible scenario is. The truth
is will probably be somewhere. You're going to find yourself
somewhere in the middle there, and you'll probably be very
(07:25):
happy that you took the risk.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
This is a great segue because one of the things
I want to talk to you about is the yeses
in life and when you say yes and when you
can say no. And it's kind of been a theme
in the conversations I've had recently with very successful people
who are doing incredible things and the yeses, and you know,
(07:47):
there's not a lot of space for yeses any longer,
especially with somebody like you. I'm very curious and I'll
you don't You've done so much, You're so well accomplished.
We are going to talk about, you know, kind of
the mindset around how do you continue on in a second,
but how do you know now what to say yes
to and what to say no to in life? Like
(08:09):
how do you navigate and filter it?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Wow, that is a good question and a deep one.
Can I tell you one story that came to mind
as you were asking me that. So, years and years ago,
I was the deputy Press secretary at the White House.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I really loved that job.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
I liked being just enough behind the scenes where I
was involved in everything. I didn't have the top job,
so I wasn't out front briefing the press every day.
I loved getting Tony Snow ready for the press briefing
or if President Bush was doing a press conference.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I loved.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I loved being behind the scenes, and Tony Snow gave
me a lot of responsibility management of the office. I
was the one who brief the president for everything on
his behalf. It was great, but it was a lot
of hours. And I've been doing it for six and
a half half years. And a note went out from
the chief of staff saying, if you feel like you
(09:05):
can't make it till the end of the of the term,
which would have been January twentieth, two thousand and nine,
you know you should leave now because the president needs
people who have fresh legs that can make it through
the end. And I was like, run through the tape.
I can barely crawl.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I can't.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And my husband and I went on a trip. Have
you ever heard of that Hood to Coast race out
in Oregon?
Speaker 4 (09:28):
No, I mean I would.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, it's from like Seattle down to Oregon, and they
were through the I wasn't doing it, my husband was.
But so we fly out there, we have time to
talk on the plane, we have time talk on the
way back, and when we landed back in Washington, it
was decided that I was going to tell the White
House the next day that I was going to move on.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
So I was so nervous about it. I was upset
about it.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I didn't have a next plan, but I was like,
I am going to take this step, and I was
going to put my husband first, and I was going
to get my life back.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I was going to get to browse at Target.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
I could just envision all of these things that were
all the magical things that were going to happen to
me if I had all this time back. So I
went to work that day and nervous saw ed Gillespie,
the head of communications, and I said, could I see
you after your Comm's meeting? He said, sure, can I
see you because I need to talk to you too.
I said great, So we go to the comms meeting
(10:26):
that's eight am, eight thirty. That meeting is over, and
Ed in the group says, Dana, can you stay sure?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I wait till everybody leaves the room.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
And I'm so nervous, like my stomach hurt, and I
was just about to blurt out that I was going
to leave, and he said, do you mind if I
go first?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
I said, oh, sure, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So I sat back and he said, the President is
going to name me the pres secretary on Friday. And
I said, great, what do we need to do? And
it was and that second that I said yes. Why though, well, one,
(11:07):
because so if I would have been the deputy for
the next year and a half, nothing would have changed
from me really professionally, okay, there was no additional experience
I was going to get in order to go on
to a next great opportunity. Also, if I were to leave,
(11:27):
then my chances of trying to land something like a
pretty good job were much greater than if you wait
until after a presidency is over. I knew in that
moment when Ed Gillespie said the President would like to
name you the pre secretary on Friday, that when I
said yes, that my life would change forever. It was
that decision to say great and to never tell him
(11:49):
until I wrote my book ten years later that or
six years later. He never knew until he read my
book that I was about to say that I was leaving.
And without that, yes, I wouldn't be here talking to you.
And so I look back on that and think keeping
your eyes and ears open at all times is so important.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I actually got my job on.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
The Hills as a House press secretary to a member
of Congress because I went to the Colorado Avalanche game,
the first Colorado Avalanche game against the what do they
call the National the Capitals in Washington. And this is
right before the gift ban and Coors Brewing Company bought
tickets for anybody from Colorado who wanted to go to
the game. I know nothing about sports, really, I said.
(12:36):
My friends said, are you going to go? These are
new friends to me. I said, oh, no, it's okay.
They said, are you kidding? It's free? So I went
and I sat next to a guy I said, what
would you like to do? I said, oh, well, one
day I'd like to be a House press secretary. And
they go, oh, do you know Dan Schaeffer from Colorado?
Because he and I said, Oh, I couldn't because I
just started working for this other member, and he said,
you have no idea how this town works. Tim Rutten,
(12:57):
one of the best mentors I've ever had, introduces me
to Janelle Guerrero the next Monday. Next thing you know,
I'm the press secretary for Congressman Dan Schaeffer. Again, if
I hadn't gone to the game, I hadn't said yes
to that invitation, if I hadn't said yes to being
able to meet with her, I wouldn't be talking to
you today. And that's one of the great things about
thinking about what to say yes to now.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
To get back to your original question.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
For the first time in my life, I have finally
gotten to a point where I'm not looking too far ahead.
I'm not saying that I fully live in the moment
and that I'm fully present, but I remember the lessons
that I was taught at Sunday School. Don't try to
look too far in the future, don't try to look
(13:43):
too far in the past.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Try to be here, try to be present.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
And it was hard when you have a plan and
you have ambition and you want to achieve these things.
And if I do these three things, and all the
stuff's going to work out for me, And you look
back at now at fifty four and say, my plan
had none of this on it. So I find that
right now I say yes based on three things. Do
(14:08):
I want to do it? Is it going to help
a cause that I care about? Am I getting paid?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Now?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Sometimes it'll just be you're getting paid, you don't want
to do it, but guess what you got to make
the money. Or I'll say I care about this cause
so much that I'm going to do that even though
it's a big inconvenience to me. So I found if
I use that as my filter, it works really well.
I think saying no also is hard, but it does
get a little easier when you realize how much how
(14:39):
quickly the days go by.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
I've we're going to talk about purple State here in
a second. There's a lot of themes that I want
to walk through. But I'm assuming somebody out there that's
watching or listening to this is relating and kind of
on the edge of the seat, like, Hey, there's nuggets
here that I want to learn from data, and I
want to ask this question. It comes from a very
(15:03):
sincere place and a very like complimentary place. It could
come off wrong. Okay, twenty years ago you had one
of the most like visible, respected jobs in the country.
You are in your thirties. How in your thirties, when
(15:26):
you have accomplished so much, do you look forward to
the yes is and still say excited about them? I mean,
obviously today you're an incredible host, You've had a great
career on Fox. But here's maybe this is my own
selfish question. Thirty seven years old. There's been in my
twenties are some of the most recognizable things I've ever
(15:47):
done in my life. It's been a weird transition from
twenty to thirty where like I have taken a back
seat from maybe the public eye to do things that
are more behind the scenes, do things that are less
flaunted and celebrated. So the mindset in your thirties, where
(16:07):
you're standing in front of a podium speaking on behalf
of the White House to the world, knowing that you
have so much life ahead of you, how do you
mentally navigate that and stay present and say, Okay, the
future is still going to be great. Also, even though
this is super exciting in my thirties.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Actually, I talked to President Bush about this last week too,
because I was telling him about just reminiscing in the
last month before we left the White House. I remember
one time I said, I, how are we going to
do it? I'm going to miss everybody. It's never going
to be the same life is. Life is going to
(16:46):
be I didn't say terrible, but I was like, I'm
it's just going to be so hard. And he said,
Life's going to be great. You're going to get a
great new chapter. You get to write a new chapter.
How exciting is that? And I do miss that team
very much. And I do now have an amazing, wonderful
team that has that same kind of bond that I
(17:08):
had at the White House.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
But I do remember this also, Ben. That was when.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
On January twentieth, two thousand and nine, we said goodbye
to President Bush at Joint Base Andrews. He was flying
back to Texas and Peter and I were leaving. We
were going on a mission trip in South Africa to
work at a pep FAR site at a faith based
President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief is what that stood for.
(17:36):
And I remember being in our vehicle going to Dullas
Airport and I leaned my head back against the seat,
and I said, nothing I do for the rest of
my life will ever be that important or that hard.
And it's absolutely true. I had the greatest job of
my life in my thirties. Everything else was gravy. And
(18:00):
so then if you can learn to live with a
lot of gratitude about the opportunities that are presented to
you and also give back, be humble, constantly have gratitude,
but also do a lot of output. So mentoring is
one way that I do that. And also my husband
and I are pretty active with Mercy Ships, which is
a surgical hospital ship that services the West coast of Africa.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
That's a Christian based ship.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And finding a way to live outside of yourself and
not be so focused on yourself. And that is actually
interesting for me because right I'm constantly looking at myself. Right,
I'm in hair and makeup for an hour a day,
a half hour in the morning, a half hour in
the evening, and when I'm here, I'm seeing myself. When
I'm on camera and i'm interviewing, I'm seeing myself. You
(18:48):
can become very self absorbed very quickly if you allow
yourself to be. And where I grew up on my
grandpa's ranch is really my formative years. That's how I
see it, how I remember it. The worst thing you
could ever do is to think you were better than
somebody else, and you had to be stay humble, not
get too big for your breitches. That didn't mean you
(19:08):
couldn't have ambition and achieve things, but it meant that
you had to understand that you were no better than
anybody else. And I think that has I think that's
helped me and also be excited about next chapters. And
I do wonder sometimes if all of this went away tomorrow,
would I be okay?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Like what would I want to do?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
And my husband and I have this dream and a
long term plan to do a much longer mission trip.
Of course, life gets in the way, great careers get.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
In the way.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I don't know if I could take my dog, so
that might be a deal killer, but it's something that
I have on the back burner.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Is something I want to do?
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Is that a theme to always kind of have something
you want to do? I mean you've talked even during
this in previous interviews about how incredible of a partner
your husband is. Yeah, he's great, you know, has there
always been in your guys' relationship, this kind of excitement
towards what's next or what we can do together.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Maybe, I guess looking back, I would say yes, but
I think initially so. We met on a plane in Denver,
going from Denver to Chicago in August seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven,
and we were just seated next to each other randomly.
He's British, He's eighteen years older than me. He lived
in England. He was just getting a divorce and or
(20:37):
the divorce was finalizing. I was hesitant to go to
be with him because I had a career path I
was pursuing. His career was well underway and he had
had success in the medical and surgical device field. I
remember when I moved there, I was hesitant to and
(21:00):
a family friend pulled me aside and she said, so,
what's going on?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Are you going to be with him? What's going on?
Speaker 1 (21:05):
And I told her that I was nervous about it,
and she said, well, if I were you, I would
not give up on this opportunity to be loved.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
It might be your only shot.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
And I did want to be with him, but I
was so worried about what other people would think about
me leaving my career as it was.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Looking back, that's hysterical.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I've been a press secretary for three years on the
house side of Capitol Hill.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
But you know what he did.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
He bought me an open ended round trip ticket when
I moved to England, and I think that showed such
It was gentlemanly, it showed confidence, but it also showed
great respect and care for me that I would never
feel stuck, and he's always up for an adventure. When
(21:55):
we were in Washington and I got this call to
be on a show called The Five that was at
five o'clock on week days on Fox, but it was
only supposed to be for six weeks. Well two months
into that fifteen years ago, we found out that the
show was permanent and I needed to move to New York.
I was so stressed. I had my business, I had
(22:17):
all these things, and he said leave.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
The move to me.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Now.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I was a little nervous. I was like, are you
sure I'm organized? But he did it. And he's always
been the one that's like, yes, you can do it.
And when I got my solo show, yes you can
do it. He's protective of me in a way. My
hours here are along at Fox. I do a morning
show and an afternoon show, and so the days can
(22:43):
be very long. And he was concerned about that, but
I think for him, he's always been there to say, yes,
what's next.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And I put that also down to his dad.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
His dad was in the Royal Air Force as an
air traffic controller and at one point he said to him,
if I ever found out that you weren't going to
live in America because you were worried about me and
your stepmother, I'd be very upset. So I guess we
are fairly adventurous, though we really do love the Jersey
Shore in New York.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
Yeah, well, especially when you're as busy as you are.
A final question before we dive into the themes of
Purple State, which has just been released in April of
twenty twenty six, alongside of a list of incredible books. Yeah,
author definitely is at the top of I mean, the
(23:37):
identity that you have in a career. But you stand
in front of and again this is probably a selfish
question on my part, but you stand on a podium.
We've talked about all the things that happened, all the
yesses you made. Now you're an author. I think it
all ties together. Your grandfather teaches you humility. I find
(24:01):
today as I speak with people and when I lay
in bed tonight and process my days, the desire to
stay humble because of a calling I think from God,
and it's just a better way to treat yourself and
treat people. Oftentimes, there's a very thin line between staying
humble and allowing yourself to slip into this imposter syndrome.
(24:24):
And I want to know from your perspective, for somebody
who has stood in front, as I said, in front
of the world at a young age and now sits
at you in front of the world for your career,
how do you not allow your humility to slip into
an imposter syndrome?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
You know when you were asking me that question. I
remember this one moment at the White House briefing room,
and I think it was Peter Baker, who now works
for the New York Times, but at the time he
was with the Washington Post. I remember him asking a
question in the briefing and in my mind I was.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Thinking, why is he asking? Me? Like, well, who am I?
I don't know? But I don't know anything? Who am I?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
But the truth was, I guess for me, one of
the best things that happened to me is that I
was put in that position and there was no fallback.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Like I didn't have a choice. I didn't. I couldn't
not brief the press. There was nobody else to do that.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
When Tony Snow left, that job had to get done,
and I was the one to do it. I also
credit again I mentioned Terry Rich, my speech coach, and
finding my strong voice. I remember another coach of mine,
Shawn Lee Whitney. She said it's okay to have butterflies
in your stomach as long as you make them fly
in formation. I think another thing though, on the imposter syndrome.
(25:46):
Thing that's great is one of the things I love
about living in New York is that nobody cares who
you are. They kind of care how much money you make,
which I think is annoying. But in DC, everybody wants
to know who do you work for or what can
you do for me? But when I go to mercy
ships like I did last Thanksgiving, and I play with
(26:09):
the children, or I just hold the hands of somebody
whose child is either in surgery or maybe they're recovering,
they have no idea who I am or what I do,
and they don't care, and it's a great way to
stay grounded. I also have to say, and I know
(26:34):
you're going to talk about this in a moment, but
so yes, I was a press secretary. Yes, I get
to be on these shows, and I just was on
this book tour and I meet all these people and
they've been watching me since I.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Was a press secretary.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
The best compliment you can get that you should strive
to achieve is it when you go home or you
go back to that first place of work. If they
say you're the same today as your back, then that's
a great compliment, meaning that you didn't get too big
for your breeches. Right. For me, I love being able
(27:10):
to go home and just slip right back into where
I was.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Yeah. I mean, I think you've touched on so many
things during this that are so valuable and important, and
I kind of want to reiterate those before we move on.
Is Loneliness is such a common theme right now in conversation,
and I think your desire to mentor and be mentored
(27:37):
is such an incredible place to maybe not solve. Oh sorry,
I got a crying baby behind me. She wants to
see her boo boo. Is that you No, no, no no,
that's our little dog, that's our okay. Mentorship, keeping your yeses,
(28:05):
finding a partner, I think, to allow you to be loved,
staying adventurous, writing new chapters. Dana, There's so much here,
and I could talk to you for hours, because there's
so many things to learn from you and learn with you,
especially someone who sits at a desk and communicates to
(28:26):
so many in a time where so many people want communication.
They want to hear what's going on and how is
somebody else processing it. I think that in itself helps
people feel less alone. And then, as I mentioned, one
of the new chapters after being pre secretary that you've
entered into is being an author. And you've been very
successful at that, not only because of the quality of
(28:49):
your work, but also because of a fan base and
a group of people who watched you kind of come
up through the ranks. You've recently come out with a
book called Purple State, which is a political fiction novel.
The themes of it are intriguing to me right now.
But one of the themes, as I have explored Purple State,
(29:13):
that I think is very interesting is that the characters
in the book are one way and kind of public
or when they're out into the world, and then behind
the scene they're wrestling with stuff, they're different. Like things
change in a lot of ways. Because this show is
a faith based show, it's some of people's biggest criticism
(29:34):
with the church right now. When I talk to you know,
when I talk to friends who don't attend church or
don't want to be a part of the faith tradition,
as they say, Hey, I was around it, and I
saw people be one way on a Sunday and totally
different the rest of the week. There's similarities there. But
I want to ask you, as the creator and the
author of this why did you have that implemented into
(29:56):
the characters, Like why was that one of the pieces
that were so prevalent was characters are one way out there,
but behind the scenes the honesty comes out.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Well, I think that's just realistic and that's life, right.
We all have an inner monologue. Some people speak very
negatively to themselves. Some people might be arguing with their
parents in their mind or arguing with somebody else in
their mind.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I think that.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
There is a desire to present like Dot Clark in
the book, like she's cheerful. She's naturally cheerful, she's an
optimistic person, but she's also wrestling with something that is
I notice happens a lot to young women, especially around
the age of twenty five.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I call it the quarter life crisis.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
And this is where young women in particular start to
realize everything that they had planned isn't working out the
way they thought that it would, the way in their
mind that they envisioned it.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
They might have.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Gone into one field and thought, Wow, I'm not really
good at this, but don't know how to switch. They
made me bogged down in a relationship that they don't
really want but they think it might be the only
thing they ever have, or they've not met anybody at all.
That's more common now, and they also might think do
I even want to live here?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Like? Who am I? Do you know that?
Speaker 1 (31:20):
When before I met Peter In the month before I
met Peter, I was thinking of joining the Peace Corps,
I hadn't met anybody. I was kind of sick of
the Republican leadership at the time. I didn't like where
things were going. We were in the middle of the
Monica Lewinsky scandal in Washington, DC, I should call it
the Bill Clinton scandal. And I couldn't believe that none
of the women's groups stood up for her, and I
(31:42):
was just disillusioned. I hadn't any I hadn't dated anybody
in a long time. In fact, in one of my
interviews for Purple State, I had a reporter asked me
if I had ever dated a Democrat, and I was like,
I would have dated anybody.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
There was just like no dating going on in Washington, DC.
And so there's that point.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
And then when I transitioned from the White House to
second new chapter, a lot of people from my White
House days will go, Wow, your transition.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Was so great. It was amazing, so easy? Are you
kidding me?
Speaker 1 (32:18):
I wrestled with it over and over again. But I
didn't wear that on my sleeve. So I think that
is just sort of a natural thing. And I read
voraciously a lot of fiction. I think one of the
best things for me to have learned about other humans
in the world. No matter where they are, humans wrestle
with similar problems. Black, white, brown, Republican, Democrat, conservative, liberal.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
When God created as a great imperfect humans and then
we're always sort of striving. So part of the idea
for the girls was one for them to have a
friendship and for them to realize that you don't have
to be stuck. If you are an American, you were
born into the greatest country the world's ever known, you
won life's great lottery. You're an educated woman that went
(33:09):
to NYU, and you think you might not want to
work in high tech pr and you want to take
a chance on something else. What I encourage the character
to do is to say, okay, let me try, and
then all sorts of things happen after that.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
Do you do you hope that Purple State I mean
brings out maybe or I guess I should ask, do
you have the desire as you walk through this world
and talk to people about things that are very sensitive
at times to them, do you have a desire for
this book and your projects to bring out more the
(33:44):
communication that is the internal wrestling than it is maybe
the front facing like, Hey, everything's great, here's the right
words to say, Here's what I don't say, Here's how
I communicate to you, Like, do you do you think
in your long history and see in New York that
if we communicated more of the internal dialogue, the questions.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
That he would have not necessarily, not necessarily.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
I feel that what books have done for me my
whole life, or that's a book like this could do
for especially a young woman at that quarter life crisis stage,
is to realize I'm not alone.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
I'm not the first one to have gone through this.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
I can identify with all the things that they're going through.
So I think there's that there's another part in here
that I think is really important that I do hope.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Gets out there.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
And that is so Dot Clark, she's the main character,
and she's working on a Democratic campaign. Her two friends
come with her. They're Democrats, but sort of like loose Democrats.
I wouldn't say that they're like up at Columbia University
protesting for free Palestine. They go and the work they're
working on this campaign in Wisconsin, and they get invited
to a family dinner at a farm and they get
(34:56):
there and Dot is there to also learn and gather
intelligence about what are people thinking in this Jerrymander district
in Wisconsin.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
And so she.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Asked the farmer, why is it that all the farmers
used to vote for Democrats? And now they almost uniformly
vote for Republicans. What happened? And he starts to explain,
and she wants to argue a point against him, but
it's his house, it's his table, and she also realizes
that maybe she needs to just listen for a minute.
(35:27):
And that's definitely one of the lessons that I hope
gets through. It's also one that I am reminding myself
about every single day, is that we have an epidemic
of interruption, whether it's our phones, our attention spans, or
even just interrupting other people to try to make their
points for them or to argue that with them before
(35:48):
they finish their point. And so I love it in
the book that she says, wait, let me listen.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
Do you find that to be common in your field
of work today, that people are listening or do you
still feel like the interum Okay.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
I mean do you watch the five Yes? No, I
mean we listen to each other most of the time.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
I also think that for me, when I first started
doing more anchoring, where I'm asking the questions, one of
the things you do when you're first starting out is
that you're thinking of five or six steps ahead. And
then I got to do this, and you're as you're
asking the question and they're answering, and you're thinking over here.
(36:34):
But that means that you might miss something that they say,
and you can. If you don't pick up on it,
you're going to miss the news. So I have learned
to trust that my producers have what's coming next, and
that allows me to be a lot more present. I
definitely see that. I also feel that. Well, let me
give you an example. I mean, at dinner a couple
(36:56):
of years ago. It's been on my mind recently as
I talk about listening. My friends have a one daughter,
so she's the only child, and at this time she
was like thirteen fourteen years old, and she would always
come to dinner with us because you know, there's only
one of them, and here she comes. So we're at
(37:16):
dinner and we were talking about I don't know, some
sort of like policy issue or politics or something, and
she wanted to make a point. And there's a lot
of guys at the table. You know, everybody's super polite,
but I needed to let her get a word in edgewys,
so I said, please, you go go ahead, you have
the floor.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
So she's trying to articulate her point.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And you know, a thirteen or fourteen year old girl,
it's not easy anywhere in the world to be that age.
So she's having a hard time formulating the words, and
she's getting there. And the guys at the table thought
they were being helpful because they kept kind of jumping
in and say, oh, you mean oh because of ada da,
and she was like no, no, no, no, And then
(37:58):
she was getting more flustered, and I finally slam the
table and I said, let her talk, please go ahead,
and I just gave them all the all the guys
a look.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
And then I realized that.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
As a mentor, a loose casual mentor, like, one of
the things that we can do is to make sure
that other people get a chance to be heard, and if, if,
if that message can get through, especially for younger girls
that are trying to articulate themselves in a world where
you could just be lost on your phone and not
actually have to communicate, Invite them to the table, give
(38:37):
them the chance to speak, your cover your mouth with
your hand if you have to, to prevent yourself from
interrupting them, because it's it does stunt their professional growth,
even at that age.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
I've, you know, through through life one of them, and
it's it's in the Bible right to listen more than
we speak. It's been one of life's greatest lessons for me.
It's not easy, as you said, it doesn't necessarily come naturally,
and it doesn't necessarily feel good all the time, because
you like, I want to say what I feel like
I need to say, and I imagine even here, you know,
(39:15):
I'm leading this conversation. In some way. You're used to
leading the conversations. It's weird to be a guest, and
it's even harder to switch into the public's world. But
listening more than I speak has become kind of a
phrase that we say in our house often because I
(39:36):
can miss it in my marriage, my friendships. I don't
you know. I guess thirty seven years of life has
taught me that I don't have all the answers anyways,
and oftentimes it's helpful to to learn from others no
matter what age. This This book seems to me, but
I don't want to push it on. It feels like
(39:57):
it's speaking into millennials. In many ways. There's a theme
of ambition and burnout. Is that something that you put
like you wrote about and wanted to push through in
this book because it's something you see in the world
around you, is burnout and millennials, especially ambitious millennials, is
(40:18):
more common. Or did that just kind of fall into
place because of the characters of the story.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
There was a guy here at Fox who read the
book before it came out, an early early copy, and
he asked me, is this are these characters about any
of the young women who work here at Fox?
Speaker 2 (40:37):
And I said, Oh, it's about all of them.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
And I would say they're more gen Z than millennials.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
I love that age group and I get a kick
out of them, and I have great hopes for them.
And here's my great hope and advice that I hope
for them, that they do not worry their young lives away,
(41:06):
that they don't worry their twenties away.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I did. I worried all the time.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
And I remember a woman at my singles group, a
church singles group at Lutheran Church of the Reformation in DC,
when I was in the thick of my quarter life crisis,
like holding.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
It all inside.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
But I shared this with her at a we used
to get together on Wednesday nights and she said, well, remember, Dana,
all through the Bible, God says, fear not, do not
be afraid.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
You are not going to be forgotten.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Your name is engraved on the palm of his hand,
like don't fear, don't and fear not and worry for
me really manifests itself in that fear. And when I
tell you that when the greatest things abuying life right
now is that I feel like I can more live
(42:03):
in the present, like I'm not worried about what comes next.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
That is such a relief to me.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
And serenity is my favorite emotion, my favorite state of being,
and sometimes it's very fleeting. But if I can accomplish
one thing with my mentoring books, a podcast like this,
or for somebody reading Purple State, if they can realize
they're not alone and they can take a chance and
a risk, and that they can be open minded and
(42:34):
love somebody else, and that, finally, especially for young women,
choosing to be loved is not a career limiting decision.
Choosing to be with Peter and moving to England where
I couldn't even work, was the best thing I ever
did for my career, and I see it happen. These
(42:55):
young women that are in a quarter life crisis. Within
eighteen months, two years, it all turns around. And then
they look back and they're like, Oh, I shouldn't have
worried so much. Worry gets us absolutely nowhere. It's a
wasted amount of energy and you could be putting that
energy into doing anything else.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
And the beautiful words of Paul, the perseverance through that
season of worry or frustration or feeling like chaos oftentimes
builds a character that I think pushes us into a
season of life. We're more prepared and we know ourselves
a little better. Dana, a couple few questions here. Your
(43:34):
faith has been kind of sprinkled throughout this conversation, So
obviously something that this show is built on is having
conversations about faith and real life moments and real life
stories and kind of where things take you. How has
your faith played an impact in this journey that we've
talked about over at least the last twenty years, but
(43:56):
really the last four years.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
You know, I've learned to walk with it, right.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
So a few years ago, I felt like.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
There's a moment when sometimes you can be in New
York and you can get kind of hardened. And I
remember catching a glimpse of myself in a mirror, like
a like a reflection of a window, and my jaws.
I sat really hard. I'm walking on like a New Yorker.
I was like, I got to stop this. And I
had a new Year's resolution and my goal was every
day to say a silent bit of I hope this
(44:38):
doesn't sound silly, but.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Like to say some sort of silent.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Prayer or wish for everybody I saw, but without speaking,
So for example on the subway. I just remember when
I first started this, I really got into it. There
was I remember this kid, he was studying for his test,
and I was like, oh, I prayed that he gets
an a. I saw a woman in a uniform. I
was like, oh, I pray that her customers are nice
(45:01):
to her today, some moms.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
She was very rushed.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
She was carrying like two grocery bags, got a backpack,
she got the stroller. I was like, I pray they
get home safe. And what that did was we go
back to humility as well. It takes you out of
yourself and into others without getting into their space and
causing a problem, and you're like shut up. You're like
what I love New Yorkers. They're like the best people.
(45:26):
I have so much fun here and when I can
be mindful and remember that if I'm walking with my faith,
then I can not live in fear and I can
enjoy my life more. I think that's another thing that
(45:46):
I'm trying to do with Purple State, too, is that
I didn't want to write a book that was about,
you know, rancor and politics. My a girlfriend of mine said,
how did you manage to write a book about politics
without any politics? And my goal was that everybody gets
gets treated fairly and nicely, and it was more a
story about humanity. I don't think we are as polarized
as the media thinks we are, or as our phones
(46:09):
try to make us be. If you get off your
phone and you are just neighborly with others, your life
is going to.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Be much more enjoyable.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
And God created us in order to do good and
also to enjoy our lives. I do not want to
spend another moment arguing with somebody about politics. I just
don't do it. I don't do it at the dog park.
I won't argue about politics on the weekends. I analyze
the news, and I analyze politics for a living. But
politics is what I do for a living. It's certainly
(46:41):
not who I am.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
With Purple State. Another addition to an incredible kind of
portfolio of books that you've put out, do you write
I mean you mentioned the Jersey Shore a little bit
ago and how it's kind of a get escape for
you and your husband to just separate from the chaos.
Do you write to separate or is this? Is this like,
(47:07):
what is the reason why you continue to put books
out into the world.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
So I have to say I think that writing Purple State.
The answer is yes, I wrote it. I wrote it,
and I separated. I didn't write it to separate, but
that was a byproduct.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
The nonfiction was more of.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Trying to take all of the things that I would
be asked about and put them in one place. So,
for example, everything will be Okay Life Lessons for Young
Women from a former young woman was all of my
mentoring advice in one place. Came out in March of
twenty twenty one. Some people thought that I created the
title because of COVID.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
I didn't.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
But everything will be Okay is what I find myself
telling these young women who come to see me all
the time that you're going to be okay. And what
I did, I took those lessons write what you know.
And those are the lessons that are hidden within Purple State.
As a story, I do write in silence. I write
it with the ocean in the background, like open the door,
(48:09):
even in the winter, cold winter, I'll open the door
enough so I can hear it, and I'll have the
space heater on. It's probably not very energy efficient, sorry,
but that way I can have a little bit of nature.
But I want to be in the silence, and I
wanted to be a part and I when I finished
Purple State and I wrote the end, I think I
(48:32):
think I felt the most professional pride that I've had
since I did my first briefing at the White House.
Speaker 4 (48:39):
Goodness, that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Yeah, I really loved it. It was something different and new,
and it's great for me now that the book is
out that people seem to love it, so that feels great.
And I loved sort of working a new muscle, trying
something new and thinking that maybe, you know, if TV
(49:02):
doesn't last forever, or maybe there's something else that I
can do as well.
Speaker 4 (49:06):
Well. I think anybody listening and anybody watching already came
into this with a ton of just respect and admiration
for you. And putting something like this out into the
world is not easy. Writing a book is not easy.
But it's been a great pursuit and as you said,
the response has been positive. Final question for you, I
(49:27):
like to ask any author that comes through when you
wrote this, and even now maybe this has changed, who
did you write this for? Why would somebody want to
read it? Like, why would somebody enjoy reading it? Should
be reading it? I guess we could say like a
little sales pitch and some you know, but a little
(49:49):
more in depth from the author herself.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
I wrote a book that I would want to read,
so I love I read almost exclusively fiction if I'm
not reading news, and I love the characters, so I
would say it's really written for that young woman who
comes to me. But what I didn't know is that
(50:16):
their moms would also love it, and that the grandmas
would love it. And in a great thrill for me,
A lot of the guys who are reading it really
love it because it's a great story. When it was
first categorized as romantic comedy, because you have to choose
a spot, and that's what the publisher chose. I was
worried a little bit because sometimes I think that sounds frivolous,
(50:37):
and it's not a frivolous story. But also it is
also fun and there is romance. So I tease a
lot of the guys that come through the book signing
lines who are accompanying their wives, so have you read
it yet?
Speaker 2 (50:52):
And or are you going to read it?
Speaker 1 (50:53):
And I love the ones who said, oh yeah, I'm
definitely going to read it first. It's also for people
who think that they might want to work in politics
or on a campaign and they don't know what it's like.
There's a very good example there. But also this I
mentioned that I grew up in Wyoming. I didn't really
have a chance to travel the world until I was
(51:13):
much much older in my adult years, and the way
I saw things and traveled around the world was through books.
And this is a great story about my love for
Manhattan and also a great town of Cedarburg, Wisconsin, which
I call cedar Falls in the book. The Midwestern States
(51:33):
are fabulous and wonderful, and there are still some gems
out there, some small towns maybe like the ones that
you still have in Colorado that are out there and
they deserve our support. I love this town of Cedarburgh.
They're creating a Purple State walking tour in that town,
which I think is fantastic. I'm hoping I get to
go take take the tour this summer.
Speaker 4 (51:56):
Dana, this is awesome. I mean it really is. Thanks
for sharing your wisdom and you're insight with the world
through books like Purple State. But also you know you
do it, like you said on the five and on
your show, your your own individual show, You've just continued
to be somebody who I think has used not only
life's greatest lessons and the journeys along the way, and
(52:19):
you continue to put it out into the world so
that other people can share in it and learn from it.
And you did that today by sitting down with me.
Thank you for coming on, bestie.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Thank you so much. What an honor.
Speaker 4 (52:31):
It's great. H Dana Pirno. Purple State has been released
in April of this year. Go pick it up wherever
books are sold.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Thank you, Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (52:41):
Thanks Dana. Hey, friends, thanks for listening or watching. Would
you take a second, follow, subscribe, and drop a comment.
It really helps
I want you to sit here and ask yourself, what's
the worst thing that could happen if you started your.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Own pr firm.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I wrote a book that I would want to read.
It was in that second that I said yes. For
the first time in my life. I have finally gotten
to a point where I'm not looking too far ahead.
Don't think we are as polarized as the media thinks
we are, or as our phones try to make us be.
If you get off your phone and you are just
(00:28):
neighborly with others, your life's going to be much more enjoyable.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Welcome to if you can hear me, a space where
culture meets the soul.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
I'm Ben Higgins.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
You may know me from The Bachelor, and you may
know my guests from culture, headlines and entertainment. This podcast
is about going beyond the surface into something deeper. Each
week we sit down for open conversations about identity, faith,
and the realities underneath it all. At its heart, this
podcast is about creating space for people to slow down
(00:59):
and beak freely. Not polished interviews are perfect answers, just
real discussions that are unfiltered. I invite you to lean
in and enjoy the conversation Dana Perino.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I've been very excited to talk to you. Thanks for
jumping on.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
If you can hear me, I can hear you perfectly,
and I've been looking forward to this as well.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
It's great to connect.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I mentioned before we jumped on. We have a lot
of things in common. You love and are from Denver,
and that's where I currently live. But you're out of
New York City now right. Yes, if you're unfamiliar with
the success and resume of Dana, it's pretty incredible. It's
very incredible, very well accomplished New York Times bestselling author.
(01:45):
And we're here today to talk about a lot of
things expanding from faith to everyday life. And I want
to start in kind of prepping for this. One of
the things that I thought was really fascinating, and you
don't hear it too often outside of the church at
least and from my experience, but I've heard you talk
about a lot is mentorship, and it's one of the
(02:07):
things that I think that we need more today than ever.
If I could kick off this conversation by asking you, like,
in a time where everybody's saying we're super divisive, things
are chaotic, nobody can talk to anybody. Would mentorship be
a solution in your mind?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
A great question, and thank you for asking it, and
thanks for having me on your show. I did mention
to a couple of friends and I got to have
this opportunity, and they're like, you get to talk to Ben.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I'm like, I do.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
So you know, mentorship is something interesting. I think for
some people it comes quite naturally. And what I've learned
over the years is that I sought out mentors who
are willing participants.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
In my life.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
So I look back and one of the people that
comes to mind is my original speech team coach, Terry
Rich from Ponderosa High School, and she was a great
role model for me and open doors, very encouraging. I
ended up going to college at the University of Southern
Colorado on a speech team scholarship, and while there there
(03:22):
were several mentors. Sam ever saw all my professors. Professors
can also be mentors. I believe your teachers are your
first mentors. Fast forward and then I become the White
House Press Secretary and I'm leaving and I'm asked over
and over again if I can get coffee with all
of these young women in Washington, DC, and I was
(03:42):
just like, there's too many to I don't have that
much time for coffee, and there's an insatiable demand and
a supply and demand problem. It's out of whack. And
when it comes to the desire for mentoring and the
number of people who are available to do it. I
also think that because of corporate America and for some reason,
(04:03):
people started to believe that you had to have some
sort of formal mentoring relationship, like it had to be
written in paper that you are my mentor and you're
going to do these things for me, and it became
kind of transactional. I don't believe in that. So what
I ended up doing was creating something that would help
me with my time management. And it was like speed dating,
(04:24):
but mentoring for young professional women. And the reason I
did that is because I don't have all the answers,
so I would set up other mentors. But what I
found is a lot of people, especially at that quarter
life crisis age, they all have the same questions variations
on a theme.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
There's about ten basic questions.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
And by doing that all in one place, getting advice
from lots of different people from different walks of life,
different areas of expertise that you could really help people
feel better. It's not necessarily that your mentor is going
to tell you, Okay, if you do the next three things,
then you too will become White House Press secretary. Now
(05:05):
people want that, and we want that in different parts
of our lives, Like if you do these three things,
you are going to meet the man of your dreams.
If you do these three things, you were going to
have all the money you ever need. That's not how
this works. How life works. You have to be able
to have a bigger plan, and I'm sure we'll talk
about that as well. But the mentoring side of things
has been a great joy to me, and it's also
(05:28):
been a way for me to connect with other humans
in a non partisan way, which is something I crave.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Do you still lean on mentors for you personally or
are you yes? Sure? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So one of my great mentors was President George W.
Bush and I got to see him last week. We're talking.
This is mid May. So I saw him in Dallas
and he's a great man. He loves career counseling and
his dad was very good at it as well. And
I remember about fifteen years ago when I first left
(06:05):
the White House, I joined a PR firm, and as
I was signing my name on the contract, I felt
like it was the wrong move for me, but I
didn't know what else to do. Six months later, I
had to go to Dallas for something and I walked
in to see him and he didn't say hello.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
He said what's wrong and I was like, oh, nothing,
I'm fine. He said, no, what's wrong?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
And I told him I didn't love the PR firm,
but I didn't know what else I could do. And
he said, well, why don't you just start your own?
And I had a hundred reasons why I didn't think
I could. And he said, well, I want you to
sit here and ask yourself, what's the worst thing that
could happen if you started your own PR firm. So
I started to list the things and he said, okay,
(06:48):
so you're telling me that the worst thing that could
happen if you start your own PR firm is that
it fails and you have to go back and work
for another PR firm. That's the worst thing that.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Could happen to you. And he was right.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
And I used that line, which is not just specific
to George Bush. I think a lot of mentors will
ask younger people if you can picture in your mind
what is the worst possible thing that could happen, and
you imagine what the best possible scenario is. The truth
is will probably be somewhere. You're going to find yourself
somewhere in the middle there, and you'll probably be very
(07:25):
happy that you took the risk.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
This is a great segue because one of the things
I want to talk to you about is the yeses
in life and when you say yes and when you
can say no. And it's kind of been a theme
in the conversations I've had recently with very successful people
who are doing incredible things and the yeses, and you know,
(07:47):
there's not a lot of space for yeses any longer,
especially with somebody like you. I'm very curious and I'll
you don't You've done so much, You're so well accomplished.
We are going to talk about, you know, kind of
the mindset around how do you continue on in a second,
but how do you know now what to say yes
to and what to say no to in life? Like
(08:09):
how do you navigate and filter it?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Wow, that is a good question and a deep one.
Can I tell you one story that came to mind
as you were asking me that. So, years and years ago,
I was the deputy Press secretary at the White House.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I really loved that job.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
I liked being just enough behind the scenes where I
was involved in everything. I didn't have the top job,
so I wasn't out front briefing the press every day.
I loved getting Tony Snow ready for the press briefing
or if President Bush was doing a press conference.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I loved.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I loved being behind the scenes, and Tony Snow gave
me a lot of responsibility management of the office. I
was the one who brief the president for everything on
his behalf. It was great, but it was a lot
of hours. And I've been doing it for six and
a half half years. And a note went out from
the chief of staff saying, if you feel like you
(09:05):
can't make it till the end of the of the term,
which would have been January twentieth, two thousand and nine,
you know you should leave now because the president needs
people who have fresh legs that can make it through
the end. And I was like, run through the tape.
I can barely crawl.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I can't.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And my husband and I went on a trip. Have
you ever heard of that Hood to Coast race out
in Oregon?
Speaker 4 (09:28):
No, I mean I would.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, it's from like Seattle down to Oregon, and they
were through the I wasn't doing it, my husband was.
But so we fly out there, we have time to
talk on the plane, we have time talk on the
way back, and when we landed back in Washington, it
was decided that I was going to tell the White
House the next day that I was going to move on.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
So I was so nervous about it. I was upset
about it.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I didn't have a next plan, but I was like,
I am going to take this step, and I was
going to put my husband first, and I was going
to get my life back.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I was going to get to browse at Target.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
I could just envision all of these things that were
all the magical things that were going to happen to
me if I had all this time back. So I
went to work that day and nervous saw ed Gillespie,
the head of communications, and I said, could I see
you after your Comm's meeting? He said, sure, can I
see you because I need to talk to you too.
I said great, So we go to the comms meeting
(10:26):
that's eight am, eight thirty. That meeting is over, and
Ed in the group says, Dana, can you stay sure?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I wait till everybody leaves the room.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
And I'm so nervous, like my stomach hurt, and I
was just about to blurt out that I was going
to leave, and he said, do you mind if I
go first?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
I said, oh, sure, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So I sat back and he said, the President is
going to name me the pres secretary on Friday. And
I said, great, what do we need to do? And
it was and that second that I said yes. Why though, well, one,
(11:07):
because so if I would have been the deputy for
the next year and a half, nothing would have changed
from me really professionally, okay, there was no additional experience
I was going to get in order to go on
to a next great opportunity. Also, if I were to leave,
(11:27):
then my chances of trying to land something like a
pretty good job were much greater than if you wait
until after a presidency is over. I knew in that
moment when Ed Gillespie said the President would like to
name you the pre secretary on Friday, that when I
said yes, that my life would change forever. It was
that decision to say great and to never tell him
(11:49):
until I wrote my book ten years later that or
six years later. He never knew until he read my
book that I was about to say that I was leaving.
And without that, yes, I wouldn't be here talking to you.
And so I look back on that and think keeping
your eyes and ears open at all times is so important.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I actually got my job on.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
The Hills as a House press secretary to a member
of Congress because I went to the Colorado Avalanche game,
the first Colorado Avalanche game against the what do they
call the National the Capitals in Washington. And this is
right before the gift ban and Coors Brewing Company bought
tickets for anybody from Colorado who wanted to go to
the game. I know nothing about sports, really, I said.
(12:36):
My friends said, are you going to go? These are
new friends to me. I said, oh, no, it's okay.
They said, are you kidding? It's free? So I went
and I sat next to a guy I said, what
would you like to do? I said, oh, well, one
day I'd like to be a House press secretary. And
they go, oh, do you know Dan Schaeffer from Colorado?
Because he and I said, Oh, I couldn't because I
just started working for this other member, and he said,
you have no idea how this town works. Tim Rutten,
(12:57):
one of the best mentors I've ever had, introduces me
to Janelle Guerrero the next Monday. Next thing you know,
I'm the press secretary for Congressman Dan Schaeffer. Again, if
I hadn't gone to the game, I hadn't said yes
to that invitation, if I hadn't said yes to being
able to meet with her, I wouldn't be talking to
you today. And that's one of the great things about
thinking about what to say yes to now.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
To get back to your original question.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
For the first time in my life, I have finally
gotten to a point where I'm not looking too far ahead.
I'm not saying that I fully live in the moment
and that I'm fully present, but I remember the lessons
that I was taught at Sunday School. Don't try to
look too far in the future, don't try to look
(13:43):
too far in the past.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Try to be here, try to be present.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
And it was hard when you have a plan and
you have ambition and you want to achieve these things.
And if I do these three things, and all the
stuff's going to work out for me, And you look
back at now at fifty four and say, my plan
had none of this on it. So I find that
right now I say yes based on three things. Do
(14:08):
I want to do it? Is it going to help
a cause that I care about? Am I getting paid?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Now?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Sometimes it'll just be you're getting paid, you don't want
to do it, but guess what you got to make
the money. Or I'll say I care about this cause
so much that I'm going to do that even though
it's a big inconvenience to me. So I found if
I use that as my filter, it works really well.
I think saying no also is hard, but it does
get a little easier when you realize how much how
(14:39):
quickly the days go by.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
I've we're going to talk about purple State here in
a second. There's a lot of themes that I want
to walk through. But I'm assuming somebody out there that's
watching or listening to this is relating and kind of
on the edge of the seat, like, Hey, there's nuggets
here that I want to learn from data, and I
want to ask this question. It comes from a very
(15:03):
sincere place and a very like complimentary place. It could
come off wrong. Okay, twenty years ago you had one
of the most like visible, respected jobs in the country.
You are in your thirties. How in your thirties, when
(15:26):
you have accomplished so much, do you look forward to
the yes is and still say excited about them? I mean,
obviously today you're an incredible host, You've had a great
career on Fox. But here's maybe this is my own
selfish question. Thirty seven years old. There's been in my
twenties are some of the most recognizable things I've ever
(15:47):
done in my life. It's been a weird transition from
twenty to thirty where like I have taken a back
seat from maybe the public eye to do things that
are more behind the scenes, do things that are less
flaunted and celebrated. So the mindset in your thirties, where
(16:07):
you're standing in front of a podium speaking on behalf
of the White House to the world, knowing that you
have so much life ahead of you, how do you
mentally navigate that and stay present and say, Okay, the
future is still going to be great. Also, even though
this is super exciting in my thirties.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Actually, I talked to President Bush about this last week too,
because I was telling him about just reminiscing in the
last month before we left the White House. I remember
one time I said, I, how are we going to
do it? I'm going to miss everybody. It's never going
to be the same life is. Life is going to
(16:46):
be I didn't say terrible, but I was like, I'm
it's just going to be so hard. And he said,
Life's going to be great. You're going to get a
great new chapter. You get to write a new chapter.
How exciting is that? And I do miss that team
very much. And I do now have an amazing, wonderful
team that has that same kind of bond that I
(17:08):
had at the White House.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
But I do remember this also, Ben. That was when.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
On January twentieth, two thousand and nine, we said goodbye
to President Bush at Joint Base Andrews. He was flying
back to Texas and Peter and I were leaving. We
were going on a mission trip in South Africa to
work at a pep FAR site at a faith based
President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief is what that stood for.
(17:36):
And I remember being in our vehicle going to Dullas
Airport and I leaned my head back against the seat,
and I said, nothing I do for the rest of
my life will ever be that important or that hard.
And it's absolutely true. I had the greatest job of
my life in my thirties. Everything else was gravy. And
(18:00):
so then if you can learn to live with a
lot of gratitude about the opportunities that are presented to
you and also give back, be humble, constantly have gratitude,
but also do a lot of output. So mentoring is
one way that I do that. And also my husband
and I are pretty active with Mercy Ships, which is
a surgical hospital ship that services the West coast of Africa.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
That's a Christian based ship.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And finding a way to live outside of yourself and
not be so focused on yourself. And that is actually
interesting for me because right I'm constantly looking at myself. Right,
I'm in hair and makeup for an hour a day,
a half hour in the morning, a half hour in
the evening, and when I'm here, I'm seeing myself. When
I'm on camera and i'm interviewing, I'm seeing myself. You
(18:48):
can become very self absorbed very quickly if you allow
yourself to be. And where I grew up on my
grandpa's ranch is really my formative years. That's how I
see it, how I remember it. The worst thing you
could ever do is to think you were better than
somebody else, and you had to be stay humble, not
get too big for your breitches. That didn't mean you
(19:08):
couldn't have ambition and achieve things, but it meant that
you had to understand that you were no better than
anybody else. And I think that has I think that's
helped me and also be excited about next chapters. And
I do wonder sometimes if all of this went away tomorrow,
would I be okay?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Like what would I want to do?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
And my husband and I have this dream and a
long term plan to do a much longer mission trip.
Of course, life gets in the way, great careers get.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
In the way.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I don't know if I could take my dog, so
that might be a deal killer, but it's something that
I have on the back burner.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Is something I want to do?
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Is that a theme to always kind of have something
you want to do? I mean you've talked even during
this in previous interviews about how incredible of a partner
your husband is. Yeah, he's great, you know, has there
always been in your guys' relationship, this kind of excitement
towards what's next or what we can do together.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Maybe, I guess looking back, I would say yes, but
I think initially so. We met on a plane in Denver,
going from Denver to Chicago in August seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven,
and we were just seated next to each other randomly.
He's British, He's eighteen years older than me. He lived
in England. He was just getting a divorce and or
(20:37):
the divorce was finalizing. I was hesitant to go to
be with him because I had a career path I
was pursuing. His career was well underway and he had
had success in the medical and surgical device field. I
remember when I moved there, I was hesitant to and
(21:00):
a family friend pulled me aside and she said, so,
what's going on?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Are you going to be with him? What's going on?
Speaker 1 (21:05):
And I told her that I was nervous about it,
and she said, well, if I were you, I would
not give up on this opportunity to be loved.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
It might be your only shot.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
And I did want to be with him, but I
was so worried about what other people would think about
me leaving my career as it was.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Looking back, that's hysterical.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I've been a press secretary for three years on the
house side of Capitol Hill.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
But you know what he did.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
He bought me an open ended round trip ticket when
I moved to England, and I think that showed such
It was gentlemanly, it showed confidence, but it also showed
great respect and care for me that I would never
feel stuck, and he's always up for an adventure. When
(21:55):
we were in Washington and I got this call to
be on a show called The Five that was at
five o'clock on week days on Fox, but it was
only supposed to be for six weeks. Well two months
into that fifteen years ago, we found out that the
show was permanent and I needed to move to New York.
I was so stressed. I had my business, I had
(22:17):
all these things, and he said leave.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
The move to me.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Now.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I was a little nervous. I was like, are you
sure I'm organized? But he did it. And he's always
been the one that's like, yes, you can do it.
And when I got my solo show, yes you can
do it. He's protective of me in a way. My
hours here are along at Fox. I do a morning
show and an afternoon show, and so the days can
(22:43):
be very long. And he was concerned about that, but
I think for him, he's always been there to say, yes,
what's next.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And I put that also down to his dad.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
His dad was in the Royal Air Force as an
air traffic controller and at one point he said to him,
if I ever found out that you weren't going to
live in America because you were worried about me and
your stepmother, I'd be very upset. So I guess we
are fairly adventurous, though we really do love the Jersey
Shore in New York.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
Yeah, well, especially when you're as busy as you are.
A final question before we dive into the themes of
Purple State, which has just been released in April of
twenty twenty six, alongside of a list of incredible books. Yeah,
author definitely is at the top of I mean, the
(23:37):
identity that you have in a career. But you stand
in front of and again this is probably a selfish
question on my part, but you stand on a podium.
We've talked about all the things that happened, all the
yesses you made. Now you're an author. I think it
all ties together. Your grandfather teaches you humility. I find
(24:01):
today as I speak with people and when I lay
in bed tonight and process my days, the desire to
stay humble because of a calling I think from God,
and it's just a better way to treat yourself and
treat people. Oftentimes, there's a very thin line between staying
humble and allowing yourself to slip into this imposter syndrome.
(24:24):
And I want to know from your perspective, for somebody
who has stood in front, as I said, in front
of the world at a young age and now sits
at you in front of the world for your career,
how do you not allow your humility to slip into
an imposter syndrome?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
You know when you were asking me that question. I
remember this one moment at the White House briefing room,
and I think it was Peter Baker, who now works
for the New York Times, but at the time he
was with the Washington Post. I remember him asking a
question in the briefing and in my mind I was.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Thinking, why is he asking? Me? Like, well, who am I?
I don't know? But I don't know anything? Who am I?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
But the truth was, I guess for me, one of
the best things that happened to me is that I
was put in that position and there was no fallback.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Like I didn't have a choice. I didn't. I couldn't
not brief the press. There was nobody else to do that.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
When Tony Snow left, that job had to get done,
and I was the one to do it. I also
credit again I mentioned Terry Rich, my speech coach, and
finding my strong voice. I remember another coach of mine,
Shawn Lee Whitney. She said it's okay to have butterflies
in your stomach as long as you make them fly
in formation. I think another thing though, on the imposter syndrome.
(25:46):
Thing that's great is one of the things I love
about living in New York is that nobody cares who
you are. They kind of care how much money you make,
which I think is annoying. But in DC, everybody wants
to know who do you work for or what can
you do for me? But when I go to mercy
ships like I did last Thanksgiving, and I play with
(26:09):
the children, or I just hold the hands of somebody
whose child is either in surgery or maybe they're recovering,
they have no idea who I am or what I do,
and they don't care, and it's a great way to
stay grounded. I also have to say, and I know
(26:34):
you're going to talk about this in a moment, but
so yes, I was a press secretary. Yes, I get
to be on these shows, and I just was on
this book tour and I meet all these people and
they've been watching me since I.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Was a press secretary.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
The best compliment you can get that you should strive
to achieve is it when you go home or you
go back to that first place of work. If they
say you're the same today as your back, then that's
a great compliment, meaning that you didn't get too big
for your breeches. Right. For me, I love being able
(27:10):
to go home and just slip right back into where
I was.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Yeah. I mean, I think you've touched on so many
things during this that are so valuable and important, and
I kind of want to reiterate those before we move on.
Is Loneliness is such a common theme right now in conversation,
and I think your desire to mentor and be mentored
(27:37):
is such an incredible place to maybe not solve. Oh sorry,
I got a crying baby behind me. She wants to
see her boo boo. Is that you No, no, no no,
that's our little dog, that's our okay. Mentorship, keeping your yeses,
(28:05):
finding a partner, I think, to allow you to be loved,
staying adventurous, writing new chapters. Dana, There's so much here,
and I could talk to you for hours, because there's
so many things to learn from you and learn with you,
especially someone who sits at a desk and communicates to
(28:26):
so many in a time where so many people want communication.
They want to hear what's going on and how is
somebody else processing it. I think that in itself helps
people feel less alone. And then, as I mentioned, one
of the new chapters after being pre secretary that you've
entered into is being an author. And you've been very
successful at that, not only because of the quality of
(28:49):
your work, but also because of a fan base and
a group of people who watched you kind of come
up through the ranks. You've recently come out with a
book called Purple State, which is a political fiction novel.
The themes of it are intriguing to me right now.
But one of the themes, as I have explored Purple State,
(29:13):
that I think is very interesting is that the characters
in the book are one way and kind of public
or when they're out into the world, and then behind
the scene they're wrestling with stuff, they're different. Like things
change in a lot of ways. Because this show is
a faith based show, it's some of people's biggest criticism
(29:34):
with the church right now. When I talk to you know,
when I talk to friends who don't attend church or
don't want to be a part of the faith tradition,
as they say, Hey, I was around it, and I
saw people be one way on a Sunday and totally
different the rest of the week. There's similarities there. But
I want to ask you, as the creator and the
author of this why did you have that implemented into
(29:56):
the characters, Like why was that one of the pieces
that were so prevalent was characters are one way out there,
but behind the scenes the honesty comes out.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Well, I think that's just realistic and that's life, right.
We all have an inner monologue. Some people speak very
negatively to themselves. Some people might be arguing with their
parents in their mind or arguing with somebody else in
their mind.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I think that.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
There is a desire to present like Dot Clark in
the book, like she's cheerful. She's naturally cheerful, she's an
optimistic person, but she's also wrestling with something that is
I notice happens a lot to young women, especially around
the age of twenty five.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I call it the quarter life crisis.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
And this is where young women in particular start to
realize everything that they had planned isn't working out the
way they thought that it would, the way in their
mind that they envisioned it.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
They might have.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Gone into one field and thought, Wow, I'm not really
good at this, but don't know how to switch. They
made me bogged down in a relationship that they don't
really want but they think it might be the only
thing they ever have, or they've not met anybody at all.
That's more common now, and they also might think do
I even want to live here?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Like? Who am I? Do you know that?
Speaker 1 (31:20):
When before I met Peter In the month before I
met Peter, I was thinking of joining the Peace Corps,
I hadn't met anybody. I was kind of sick of
the Republican leadership at the time. I didn't like where
things were going. We were in the middle of the
Monica Lewinsky scandal in Washington, DC, I should call it
the Bill Clinton scandal. And I couldn't believe that none
of the women's groups stood up for her, and I
(31:42):
was just disillusioned. I hadn't any I hadn't dated anybody
in a long time. In fact, in one of my
interviews for Purple State, I had a reporter asked me
if I had ever dated a Democrat, and I was like,
I would have dated anybody.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
There was just like no dating going on in Washington, DC.
And so there's that point.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
And then when I transitioned from the White House to
second new chapter, a lot of people from my White
House days will go, Wow, your transition.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Was so great. It was amazing, so easy? Are you
kidding me?
Speaker 1 (32:18):
I wrestled with it over and over again. But I
didn't wear that on my sleeve. So I think that
is just sort of a natural thing. And I read
voraciously a lot of fiction. I think one of the
best things for me to have learned about other humans
in the world. No matter where they are, humans wrestle
with similar problems. Black, white, brown, Republican, Democrat, conservative, liberal.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
When God created as a great imperfect humans and then
we're always sort of striving. So part of the idea
for the girls was one for them to have a
friendship and for them to realize that you don't have
to be stuck. If you are an American, you were
born into the greatest country the world's ever known, you
won life's great lottery. You're an educated woman that went
(33:09):
to NYU, and you think you might not want to
work in high tech pr and you want to take
a chance on something else. What I encourage the character
to do is to say, okay, let me try, and
then all sorts of things happen after that.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
Do you do you hope that Purple State I mean
brings out maybe or I guess I should ask, do
you have the desire as you walk through this world
and talk to people about things that are very sensitive
at times to them, do you have a desire for
this book and your projects to bring out more the
(33:44):
communication that is the internal wrestling than it is maybe
the front facing like, Hey, everything's great, here's the right
words to say, Here's what I don't say, Here's how
I communicate to you, Like, do you do you think
in your long history and see in New York that
if we communicated more of the internal dialogue, the questions.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
That he would have not necessarily, not necessarily.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
I feel that what books have done for me my
whole life, or that's a book like this could do
for especially a young woman at that quarter life crisis stage,
is to realize I'm not alone.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
I'm not the first one to have gone through this.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
I can identify with all the things that they're going through.
So I think there's that there's another part in here
that I think is really important that I do hope.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Gets out there.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
And that is so Dot Clark, she's the main character,
and she's working on a Democratic campaign. Her two friends
come with her. They're Democrats, but sort of like loose Democrats.
I wouldn't say that they're like up at Columbia University
protesting for free Palestine. They go and the work they're
working on this campaign in Wisconsin, and they get invited
to a family dinner at a farm and they get
(34:56):
there and Dot is there to also learn and gather
intelligence about what are people thinking in this Jerrymander district
in Wisconsin.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
And so she.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Asked the farmer, why is it that all the farmers
used to vote for Democrats? And now they almost uniformly
vote for Republicans. What happened? And he starts to explain,
and she wants to argue a point against him, but
it's his house, it's his table, and she also realizes
that maybe she needs to just listen for a minute.
(35:27):
And that's definitely one of the lessons that I hope
gets through. It's also one that I am reminding myself
about every single day, is that we have an epidemic
of interruption, whether it's our phones, our attention spans, or
even just interrupting other people to try to make their
points for them or to argue that with them before
(35:48):
they finish their point. And so I love it in
the book that she says, wait, let me listen.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
Do you find that to be common in your field
of work today, that people are listening or do you
still feel like the interum Okay.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
I mean do you watch the five Yes? No, I
mean we listen to each other most of the time.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
I also think that for me, when I first started
doing more anchoring, where I'm asking the questions, one of
the things you do when you're first starting out is
that you're thinking of five or six steps ahead. And
then I got to do this, and you're as you're
asking the question and they're answering, and you're thinking over here.
(36:34):
But that means that you might miss something that they say,
and you can. If you don't pick up on it,
you're going to miss the news. So I have learned
to trust that my producers have what's coming next, and
that allows me to be a lot more present. I
definitely see that. I also feel that. Well, let me
give you an example. I mean, at dinner a couple
(36:56):
of years ago. It's been on my mind recently as
I talk about listening. My friends have a one daughter,
so she's the only child, and at this time she
was like thirteen fourteen years old, and she would always
come to dinner with us because you know, there's only
one of them, and here she comes. So we're at
(37:16):
dinner and we were talking about I don't know, some
sort of like policy issue or politics or something, and
she wanted to make a point. And there's a lot
of guys at the table. You know, everybody's super polite,
but I needed to let her get a word in edgewys,
so I said, please, you go go ahead, you have
the floor.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
So she's trying to articulate her point.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And you know, a thirteen or fourteen year old girl,
it's not easy anywhere in the world to be that age.
So she's having a hard time formulating the words, and
she's getting there. And the guys at the table thought
they were being helpful because they kept kind of jumping
in and say, oh, you mean oh because of ada da,
and she was like no, no, no, no, And then
(37:58):
she was getting more flustered, and I finally slam the
table and I said, let her talk, please go ahead,
and I just gave them all the all the guys
a look.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
And then I realized that.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
As a mentor, a loose casual mentor, like, one of
the things that we can do is to make sure
that other people get a chance to be heard, and if, if,
if that message can get through, especially for younger girls
that are trying to articulate themselves in a world where
you could just be lost on your phone and not
actually have to communicate, Invite them to the table, give
(38:37):
them the chance to speak, your cover your mouth with
your hand if you have to, to prevent yourself from
interrupting them, because it's it does stunt their professional growth,
even at that age.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
I've, you know, through through life one of them, and
it's it's in the Bible right to listen more than
we speak. It's been one of life's greatest lessons for me.
It's not easy, as you said, it doesn't necessarily come naturally,
and it doesn't necessarily feel good all the time, because
you like, I want to say what I feel like
I need to say, and I imagine even here, you know,
(39:15):
I'm leading this conversation. In some way. You're used to
leading the conversations. It's weird to be a guest, and
it's even harder to switch into the public's world. But
listening more than I speak has become kind of a
phrase that we say in our house often because I
(39:36):
can miss it in my marriage, my friendships. I don't
you know. I guess thirty seven years of life has
taught me that I don't have all the answers anyways,
and oftentimes it's helpful to to learn from others no
matter what age. This This book seems to me, but
I don't want to push it on. It feels like
(39:57):
it's speaking into millennials. In many ways. There's a theme
of ambition and burnout. Is that something that you put
like you wrote about and wanted to push through in
this book because it's something you see in the world
around you, is burnout and millennials, especially ambitious millennials, is
(40:18):
more common. Or did that just kind of fall into
place because of the characters of the story.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
There was a guy here at Fox who read the
book before it came out, an early early copy, and
he asked me, is this are these characters about any
of the young women who work here at Fox?
Speaker 2 (40:37):
And I said, Oh, it's about all of them.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
And I would say they're more gen Z than millennials.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
I love that age group and I get a kick
out of them, and I have great hopes for them.
And here's my great hope and advice that I hope
for them, that they do not worry their young lives away,
(41:06):
that they don't worry their twenties away.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I did. I worried all the time.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
And I remember a woman at my singles group, a
church singles group at Lutheran Church of the Reformation in DC,
when I was in the thick of my quarter life crisis,
like holding.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
It all inside.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
But I shared this with her at a we used
to get together on Wednesday nights and she said, well, remember, Dana,
all through the Bible, God says, fear not, do not
be afraid.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
You are not going to be forgotten.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Your name is engraved on the palm of his hand,
like don't fear, don't and fear not and worry for
me really manifests itself in that fear. And when I
tell you that when the greatest things abuying life right
now is that I feel like I can more live
(42:03):
in the present, like I'm not worried about what comes next.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
That is such a relief to me.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
And serenity is my favorite emotion, my favorite state of being,
and sometimes it's very fleeting. But if I can accomplish
one thing with my mentoring books, a podcast like this,
or for somebody reading Purple State, if they can realize
they're not alone and they can take a chance and
a risk, and that they can be open minded and
(42:34):
love somebody else, and that, finally, especially for young women,
choosing to be loved is not a career limiting decision.
Choosing to be with Peter and moving to England where
I couldn't even work, was the best thing I ever
did for my career, and I see it happen. These
(42:55):
young women that are in a quarter life crisis. Within
eighteen months, two years, it all turns around. And then
they look back and they're like, Oh, I shouldn't have
worried so much. Worry gets us absolutely nowhere. It's a
wasted amount of energy and you could be putting that
energy into doing anything else.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
And the beautiful words of Paul, the perseverance through that
season of worry or frustration or feeling like chaos oftentimes
builds a character that I think pushes us into a
season of life. We're more prepared and we know ourselves
a little better. Dana, a couple few questions here. Your
(43:34):
faith has been kind of sprinkled throughout this conversation, So
obviously something that this show is built on is having
conversations about faith and real life moments and real life
stories and kind of where things take you. How has
your faith played an impact in this journey that we've
talked about over at least the last twenty years, but
(43:56):
really the last four years.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
You know, I've learned to walk with it, right.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
So a few years ago, I felt like.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
There's a moment when sometimes you can be in New
York and you can get kind of hardened. And I
remember catching a glimpse of myself in a mirror, like
a like a reflection of a window, and my jaws.
I sat really hard. I'm walking on like a New Yorker.
I was like, I got to stop this. And I
had a new Year's resolution and my goal was every
day to say a silent bit of I hope this
(44:38):
doesn't sound silly, but.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Like to say some sort of silent.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Prayer or wish for everybody I saw, but without speaking,
So for example on the subway. I just remember when
I first started this, I really got into it. There
was I remember this kid, he was studying for his test,
and I was like, oh, I prayed that he gets
an a. I saw a woman in a uniform. I
was like, oh, I pray that her customers are nice
(45:01):
to her today, some moms.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
She was very rushed.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
She was carrying like two grocery bags, got a backpack,
she got the stroller. I was like, I pray they
get home safe. And what that did was we go
back to humility as well. It takes you out of
yourself and into others without getting into their space and
causing a problem, and you're like shut up. You're like
what I love New Yorkers. They're like the best people.
(45:26):
I have so much fun here and when I can
be mindful and remember that if I'm walking with my faith,
then I can not live in fear and I can
enjoy my life more. I think that's another thing that
(45:46):
I'm trying to do with Purple State, too, is that
I didn't want to write a book that was about,
you know, rancor and politics. My a girlfriend of mine said,
how did you manage to write a book about politics
without any politics? And my goal was that everybody gets
gets treated fairly and nicely, and it was more a
story about humanity. I don't think we are as polarized
as the media thinks we are, or as our phones
(46:09):
try to make us be. If you get off your
phone and you are just neighborly with others, your life
is going to.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Be much more enjoyable.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
And God created us in order to do good and
also to enjoy our lives. I do not want to
spend another moment arguing with somebody about politics. I just
don't do it. I don't do it at the dog park.
I won't argue about politics on the weekends. I analyze
the news, and I analyze politics for a living. But
politics is what I do for a living. It's certainly
(46:41):
not who I am.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
With Purple State. Another addition to an incredible kind of
portfolio of books that you've put out, do you write
I mean you mentioned the Jersey Shore a little bit
ago and how it's kind of a get escape for
you and your husband to just separate from the chaos.
Do you write to separate or is this? Is this like,
(47:07):
what is the reason why you continue to put books
out into the world.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
So I have to say I think that writing Purple State.
The answer is yes, I wrote it. I wrote it,
and I separated. I didn't write it to separate, but
that was a byproduct.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
The nonfiction was more of.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Trying to take all of the things that I would
be asked about and put them in one place. So,
for example, everything will be Okay Life Lessons for Young
Women from a former young woman was all of my
mentoring advice in one place. Came out in March of
twenty twenty one. Some people thought that I created the
title because of COVID.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
I didn't.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
But everything will be Okay is what I find myself
telling these young women who come to see me all
the time that you're going to be okay. And what
I did, I took those lessons write what you know.
And those are the lessons that are hidden within Purple State.
As a story, I do write in silence. I write
it with the ocean in the background, like open the door,
(48:09):
even in the winter, cold winter, I'll open the door
enough so I can hear it, and I'll have the
space heater on. It's probably not very energy efficient, sorry,
but that way I can have a little bit of nature.
But I want to be in the silence, and I
wanted to be a part and I when I finished
Purple State and I wrote the end, I think I
(48:32):
think I felt the most professional pride that I've had
since I did my first briefing at the White House.
Speaker 4 (48:39):
Goodness, that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Yeah, I really loved it. It was something different and new,
and it's great for me now that the book is
out that people seem to love it, so that feels great.
And I loved sort of working a new muscle, trying
something new and thinking that maybe, you know, if TV
(49:02):
doesn't last forever, or maybe there's something else that I
can do as well.
Speaker 4 (49:06):
Well. I think anybody listening and anybody watching already came
into this with a ton of just respect and admiration
for you. And putting something like this out into the
world is not easy. Writing a book is not easy.
But it's been a great pursuit and as you said,
the response has been positive. Final question for you, I
(49:27):
like to ask any author that comes through when you
wrote this, and even now maybe this has changed, who
did you write this for? Why would somebody want to
read it? Like, why would somebody enjoy reading it? Should
be reading it? I guess we could say like a
little sales pitch and some you know, but a little
(49:49):
more in depth from the author herself.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
I wrote a book that I would want to read,
so I love I read almost exclusively fiction if I'm
not reading news, and I love the characters, so I
would say it's really written for that young woman who
comes to me. But what I didn't know is that
(50:16):
their moms would also love it, and that the grandmas
would love it. And in a great thrill for me,
A lot of the guys who are reading it really
love it because it's a great story. When it was
first categorized as romantic comedy, because you have to choose
a spot, and that's what the publisher chose. I was
worried a little bit because sometimes I think that sounds frivolous,
(50:37):
and it's not a frivolous story. But also it is
also fun and there is romance. So I tease a
lot of the guys that come through the book signing
lines who are accompanying their wives, so have you read
it yet?
Speaker 2 (50:52):
And or are you going to read it?
Speaker 1 (50:53):
And I love the ones who said, oh yeah, I'm
definitely going to read it first. It's also for people
who think that they might want to work in politics
or on a campaign and they don't know what it's like.
There's a very good example there. But also this I
mentioned that I grew up in Wyoming. I didn't really
have a chance to travel the world until I was
(51:13):
much much older in my adult years, and the way
I saw things and traveled around the world was through books.
And this is a great story about my love for
Manhattan and also a great town of Cedarburg, Wisconsin, which
I call cedar Falls in the book. The Midwestern States
(51:33):
are fabulous and wonderful, and there are still some gems
out there, some small towns maybe like the ones that
you still have in Colorado that are out there and
they deserve our support. I love this town of Cedarburgh.
They're creating a Purple State walking tour in that town,
which I think is fantastic. I'm hoping I get to
go take take the tour this summer.
Speaker 4 (51:56):
Dana, this is awesome. I mean it really is. Thanks
for sharing your wisdom and you're insight with the world
through books like Purple State. But also you know you
do it, like you said on the five and on
your show, your your own individual show, You've just continued
to be somebody who I think has used not only
life's greatest lessons and the journeys along the way, and
(52:19):
you continue to put it out into the world so
that other people can share in it and learn from it.
And you did that today by sitting down with me.
Thank you for coming on, bestie.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Thank you so much. What an honor.
Speaker 4 (52:31):
It's great. H Dana Pirno. Purple State has been released
in April of this year. Go pick it up wherever
books are sold.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Thank you, Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (52:41):
Thanks Dana. Hey, friends, thanks for listening or watching. Would
you take a second, follow, subscribe, and drop a comment.
It really helps
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