April 7, 2026 • 46 mins
On this episode of If You Can Hear Me, Ben sits down with Shaunie Henderson, entrepreneur and creator of Basketball Wives, and Keion Henderson, senior pastor of The Lighthouse Church and Ministries in Houston. They open up about redefining success, slowing down, and leading a vibrant faith community together. Hear candid stories about transitioning from the hustle of LA to intentional living, the challenges and rewards of church leadership, and how marriage thrives amidst public scrutiny. The couple shares their unique takes on communication, evolving relationships, and what it means to truly listen and serve in today’s world.
TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Slowing Down With Intention
03:17 Life After Los Angeles
04:49 Feeling “Not Enough” and Letting Go
06:29 Basketball Wives Ends
07:54 Church Leadership Under a Microscope
08:26 Stories of Transformation at Church
11:18 Why Serve Through the Church
13:01 Protecting Personal Health and Awareness
13:38 Marriage, New Seasons, and Communication
15:21 Navigating Hard Conversations Together
19:19 Balancing Love and Leadership Roles
22:03 Differences in Leadership Styles
23:28 Stepping Into Church Leadership
25:07 Building a Hug Ministry
28:53 The Church’s Role in Society
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I don't know that I intended originally to slow down.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
This much for your I don't know even how he
got up there and I picked him up and I said,
whose child is this? This little boy looks at me
and says, hey, you pray for us to get a house.
We're tired of sleeping in the car.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
It's just being intentional about each other.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
The church has done a lot of talking, but we
haven't done a lot of listening that.
Speaker 4 (00:26):
I like them.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
That and.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
Welcome to if you can hear me, a space where
culture meets the soul. I'm Ben Higgins. You may know
me from The Bachelor, and you may know some of
my guests from culture and Headlines, but this podcast is
about going beyond the surface into something deeper. Today's guests
are Shawnnie Henderson and Kean Henderson, a couple whose story
brings together culture, leadership, and faith. Shawnnie is an entrepreneur
(00:57):
and creator of the his series Basketball Wives, and Keon
serves as senior pastor of the Lighthouse Church and Ministries
in Houston, where he leads a growing community focused on
faith service and transformation. Together, they share openly about marriage, communication,
and what it takes to build a life of purpose
in the public eye.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Kean and Shanee, thanks for joining me. I hear so
as we prep for this uh chat today, I've heard
nothing but incredible things about the two of you. I
was actually told from somebody knows you well that if
I can like somehow figure out a way that you
(01:38):
two will have me like cackling laughing, that you're extremely
funny people. But I have to just like walk into that.
So we'll see if I can do that.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Well, okay, well it's definitely probably her O, she's hilarious,
Probably not me.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
That's not on purpose.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Well that's what the That's what the best people are.
They're not funny on purpose, They're just funny because of
who they are. I want to start this off. You're
here today. You both are up to a lot. I
was just joking with the two of you. Usually for
an interview like this, i'll get a page and a
half to two pages of notes, and one of our
producers sent over eight pages of notes on the two
of you. So you're very active.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
But I want to start with Your printer is double doubling.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I actually did double check when.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I fas big font.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
It's interesting though, because it does lead me to what
I want to start with, and Shanny, I'll start with you.
You you are up to a lot, and the two
of you have accomplished so much together and then as individuals.
But one of the notes right off the bat that
just captivated me, and the line in here says reinvention
is always possible because right now people could find you
(02:58):
baking on a Saturday, hosting like a slow but like
really intentional gathering, or being at church together. So it
feels like at this season of life you are intentionally
slowing down. Or am I wrong?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Oh yeah, no, that's absolutely correct. I don't know that I.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Intended originally to slow down this much, but as I did,
it just organically.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I love the slow pace, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I always say, like even moving from LA to Houston,
it was the slow down that I didn't know I needed.
Oh so I got here in life just kind of
slowed me down and I was like, oh I like this,
and I didn't have that.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I had no reason to be in a rush.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So that you know, it happened organically and now I'm
super intentional about keep been here.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
It's interesting because I live in Denver. I've always lived
in Denver, but LA was such a large piece of
my life for so long, for ten years plus, and
I never moved there because I felt like it was
always a race. I felt like I had to dress
a little bit better, I had to tell people I
(04:21):
was doing cooler things than I was actually doing all
the time. And so I want to dig into that
a little bit because I have so many friends who
have moved from you know, Los Angeles, and Los Angeles
is a great place for so many reasons, but it
also is a difficult place because so many people are
up to so much. Have you had any kind of
(04:42):
like crisis in the midst of this as things have
slowed down to where you feel like I'm not doing enough.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Not necessarily crisis, there are times that, well, not anymore,
but there were times where I was like, yeah, I'm
not doing enough, or I wasn't as intertwined in like
my show.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
My show was being you know, filmed and produced and
everything in LA and me being so disconnected. I was
absolutely kind of in I think those first couple of years,
I was in a bit of a panic of like,
this is all going to fall apart because I'm not
in that hustle and bustle of things that I was
and was used to, but I literally just kind of
(05:27):
sat in it and was and it was. I mean,
you can honestly say I had him in La so
much like the first the first couple of years, I
was like, I gotta go and I gotta be there
for like a month, and I we got, you know,
and then we'll come back, and then I gotta go
back and I gotta be there for like, you know,
another six weeks. So I had to train myself to
(05:47):
come out of it, because you're right, it is like
we're all in a rush in LA for whatever reason.
And I think now that it's so many people.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
That are there for Hollywood and they make it that way.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
You know. I grew up up in La, so to me,
wasn't that until I got into Hollywood, and then I
was like, oh wait, we're all.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
In a rush.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
We gotta have meetings, and if you're not having meetings
and you're not having dinner at the cool spots, then
you're not doing anything.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
But that's so false, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
So now I go and I see my family and
just chill and I literally intentionally don't go to the
cool restaurants, don't hang out in the places, don't do
the meetings.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I do none of that. I just go and just
enjoy my family and brands.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
The show that you're speaking of is Basketball Wives. What
an amazing run Basketball Wives has had, And if I'm right,
it just was announced that it's not going to be
renewing for another season, right.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Right, We closed the door close that chapter.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
But what an incredible, you know, success that was, and
I think so much of it can That's where I'll
come to you, is, you know, because people people right
now feel like they can get a glimpse of the celebrity,
glimpse of the lifestyles of the people that are hustling
and bustling and going to the cool restaurants and doing
those things. And so much of America loves watching that
(07:08):
because that's not the life necessarily we live. You're a pastor,
You're the founding pastor right at Lighthouse Church in Houston.
I have quite a few pastor buddies, and I would
say the same thing about them. They feel like they're
living under a microscope a lot of times, and that
the congregations are not only sending them messages when they
(07:30):
don't like the sermon that was preached, but they're also
watching every decision they make in their life. For you,
as a pastor of a very fruitful church, how do
you navigate that as well? How do you stay grounded
and how do you find time just to take a
breath outside of what could be a very very intense career.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Well, you know, I'm still trying to figure that out.
To be quite frank it is very difficult. It is
very challenging, but the nuances and the rewards are extraordinary. Like,
I'm a people lover, so when I see something just
happened for us this past Sunday, I was preaching a
sermon and right at the end of the sermon, a
(08:16):
little boy maybe three, yeah, four years old, he walks
up to the front of the church. Man just four
year old. I don't know even how he got up there.
And I picked him up and I said, whose child
is this? Whose baby is this? And nobody said anything.
I said who had him?
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Like?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Who this boy? And they said his mom is back there.
And while I have him in my arms, Benjamin, this
little boy looks at me and says, can you pray
for us to get a house? We're tired of sleeping
in the car, like come on, man, like that right
there takes care of seven bads. And so we got
(08:58):
the mother. She had two other kids with her, so
she had three kids. We started off with getting her
a hotel room for the week, used some resources, founder
a transition house now that she can move her children into.
And then through that process they're going to move her
into a voucher system where she can get permanent housing.
So for me, you know, a microscope, it is intense,
(09:22):
but those rewards seeing stuff like that, man, it is
for a person who's built like me, it's amazing. Simultaneously, soon,
either before or after that, there's another young man who's
twenty two years old, same service. He walks up to
the front and he holds up a mask and he says,
(09:45):
I don't want to do this anymore. And I looked
at it, and I told the guys who were with me,
I said, look at that. It was a ski mask.
It's the mask that he used to rob people. I
came up there and said, because of this ceremonies, I've
been watching you three weeks. He says, I don't want
to do is anymore, and he threw it down on
the stage like for me, Yeah, all of that difficulty
(10:07):
is made easier because of the WOH outcomes, if you
will of stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
I want to dig into this a little bit though,
and I have a couple questions based on what we
were talking about, but I want to dig in a
little bit to the health though of you. You know,
these outcomes are God breed and they're perfect and timing.
But I guess I'll start with this and then I'll
dig into maybe like how you guys stay healthy and obviously,
(10:34):
as the first lady of the church, Shani, I love
for you to speak about this. You both have a
heart for caring for people. That's obvious from the work
that you've done. You're brilliant, right, you can go everywhere
and create a television show, you can also care for
people well in the spaces that they need it like that.
That's just you guys are unique people that are doing
(10:55):
great things. But you have this heart for others. As
you just meant, why do you two choose to do
it through a church? Steuting like why is the church
and why is preaching about Jesus something that you chose
to do instead of maybe starting an organization or building
a nice big business and giving money way that way.
(11:15):
Why does the church feel like the right place to
do it?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, because for me, the way I live my life,
the church isn't a choice as a calling, and so
I was born to do this. I was born for
this specific purpose. I audibly remember when I was fourteen
in July of nineteen ninety five and Gary, Indiana. The
(11:39):
address is twenty three twenty three West Eleventh Avenue. I
remember the day I felt in my soul that this
is what I was supposed to dedicate my life to.
And so for me, it's a calling. And you talked
about the health of it. I think that people remain
healthy based on the diet they feed themselves. Don't feed
(12:00):
myself negativity. I don't feed myself the opinions of people
who never met me. It's easy to misunderstand somebody from
a distance. I eat from the tree of people who
are close enough to know me.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
I get.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I get a sense of belonging and awareness of who
I am based on the people who love me and
who are honest about what they see in me. So
I refuse to allow strangers to make me sick. I
just I just I just won't do it now. If
it happens, it won't be because I let it. It'll
be because of something over overtook me that I couldn't uh,
(12:35):
that I couldn't fight back. But I promise you having
a positive, stealth awareness of who you are. That's a
good position to be in. Whether you're a pastor or
a podcaster, whether you are an athlete, or whether you
drive a race car a NASCAR, you have to start
with the foundation of knowing who you are, because if
(12:56):
you don't know who you are, then you are whoever
they call you in marriage.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
You guys have a podcast that's so fun to listen to,
But I'll be honest and admit I hadn't listened to
it till I prep for this, and I will be
subscribing and clicking and liking and doing all the things
that are good in that world. It's called the Grown
and Growing Podcasts, where you two are very open about
relationships and your personal lives and how you guys come together.
(13:25):
You just mentioned that you don't listen to the outside voices,
but yet you know I'm not newly married. I'm going
on five years, but we just had our first baby.
She's one years old. My wife and I are in
a whole new season of new challenges. It's been wonderful
for us, but there's new challenges, and I think we're
trying to figure out in this season how to lean
on each other more and what to lean on with
(13:47):
each other and maybe what you know, we need to
ask some of our closest friends to help out with.
So for you too, as you talked about not listening
to the outside voices and the negativity in a world
where both of you are very well known, how do
you two come together and support each other.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Well, I think we were committed to communication. That's one thing.
It's so funny. First of all, congratulations on the baby's.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Nice thana wanana.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Are you guys having more?
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Oh goodness? If my wife out of her way, we'd
have a Yeah, we need a bigger house. We Uh.
She's ready again. She's took her first steps this week.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
So that's so. Those days are the best. They goes
so fast.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
So yeah, Dad's a little sad right now. I'm a
little bummed out about it. I wanted her to stay
in my arms, but right right.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Right, wait till she's like not wanting to hold your hands.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
All.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Well, it's it's stages. But I think you have to
be intentional again about carving out time. And that's something that.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
I didn't know in my previous life, but now I do.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
You know what I mean, It's like we are intentional
about carving out time for each other, and you know,
even today. So we're in office today and we were
in our staff meeting and on the way to the office,
Kean didn't say a word to me, Like we don't
ride in a car and just are silent. That's not normal.
(15:22):
Like on Sunday mornings, I know he's focused, you know,
so I don't. We don't talk a lot, but it's
something said. So this morning, he wakes up and it's
good morning. I'm already up because anyway, I'm getting ready.
So he gets up, it's good morning, and I don't
think we said another word to each other until probably
an hour after we're in the office. So I'm thinking,
(15:47):
I'm thinking all types of things. I know that he's
in the zone, but at the same time, I'm kind
of like, like, sir, Okay, you're in the zone, but
is it that serious? Like you could say something, but
I don't buy the room. We get to the office,
he acknowledges that he hasn't talked to me.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
All morning, but he does it in staff right, He's like.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
I haven't talked to my wife all morning, and I'm
on the inside, I'm like, exactly, that's what I want
to do in front of the staff.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
But I know I know what it is.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
I didn't take it personal. I knew what it was.
But I say all that to say he knows that
because of that, he's gonna dedicate his eating me.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
I knew that, he knew what you're gonna save before
you send it. But anybody's watching this, they're gonna.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
On your podcast, so listen, you and everybody else. It's mine.
So but he knows that, and I know that, so
I don't. I don't have to say it. You know,
he acknowledged it.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
But it's just being intentional about each other and carving
out those those moments where we're not our best selves
to each other, but compensating in a space where it's like,
I know I wasn't my self to you based on
something that you had nothing to do with, but acknowledging
that and owning that and being self aware that I
(17:09):
know this morning. I probably should have gotten breakfast, but
I was in my head about something else that he
doesn't even know what is going on. So let me
come back when he comes back home from.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Whatever his day is. I have dinner made, I have
you know. But being intentional about each other is my
whole point, you know, and just making sure that we
carve out that time we sit and we talk about
hard things, you know, sometimes it's gonna be hard conversations,
but learning each other in a way, and I think
that's something else. You know that you have to continue
(17:39):
to learn somebody. You're never you're never not learning them.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Because I always say, if somebody had told me a
long time ago that I was going to be reintroducing
myself to myself over and over again for the rest
of my life, then your partner has to know that
they're going to re They're gonna have to introduce themselves
to the new youth every time, you you know. So
that's just something that's like, as we say, a tool
(18:03):
in our toolbox and we know like, oh, okay, that's
not the key on that I met. You know that
he's evolved into somebody else. I got to introduce myself
to that person and being intentional about that.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
It's interesting because this weekend we celebrated my mother in
law's sixtieth birthday and we asked her her words of wisdom,
and her words of wisdom were about marriage and relationships,
and she said the same thing you just said, which is,
I'm not the same person that my father in law
married at twenty five years old. The values, the character,
(18:34):
you know, stays fairly consistent, but the priorities and the
ambitions change, and sometimes even the values change. And it's
committing to growing with that person and staying curious is
such a key. And that stood out to me, and
it stands out with the two of you. Now you
also lead together. You lead many people together, and obviously
(18:58):
it comes fairly no, actually, I would assume, because you
obviously live together as well. But how do you navigate
like the business and the priorities when it comes to
what you know, the church and your ministries require, and
still stay you know, in love and still keep things
romantic between the two of you. Yeah, I think that.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Uh, that was a challenge at first because I hadn't
had any experience with anybody being in the office with me,
and so naturally when my wife came in and you know,
the staff met her and she began to get up positioning. First,
(19:41):
it was easy because she came in saying, I don't
want to do anything. I just want to take a
year and get used to everything.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Me.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
It sounded just like it.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
No, don't make me, I don't feel like it. And
then and all of a sudden, she said, hey, why
won't you use me.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I'm like.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
You said you didn't want to do anything. She says,
I'm ready, now put me in a game, coach. So
we had two different leadership styles, we have two different outlooks,
two totally different perspectives, and at the end of the
day we decided that either we're going to create a
(20:28):
new perspective that both of us align with or agree with,
or we're not gonna get to work together. Right, We're
just not gonna be able to do it. So most
couples will get on here and be like, oh, it
was so fine. We were so in love and we
held hands through the process. No, it was like in
the beginning it was like, yeah, I don't think we
should do this together. I think if you should do
(20:50):
the show, and I'm going to do this, let me
tell you something. I cannot tell you how many things
woman has saved, has saved me from, or helped me
to see that I probably would have missed if she
was not here with I can't, I can't, I can't
(21:10):
even I can't even count it. It'll be sometime I
come back to it, lady and say you saw that
a long time ago. Didn't she'd be like yo. And
now she knows, though that I don't make my decisions
based on her observation in timing. She's free to give
me the observation. I have to digest it and measure
(21:30):
it against all relatable outcomes. What happens if I make
a decision about this situation, that's probably going to set
off a domino effect in another area. So she relies
on my I guess, expertise, our knowledge. I rely on
her intuition. And it's it's so much better now than
(21:56):
it was when we first started, Like right now, Yeah,
it's it's only bad when she disagrees.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Because it's also like leading in church is so very
different from leading in any other space. Right, so his
grace meter is way higher than my grace meter dealing
with just you know, TV production, things like that.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
So it's like, I it's Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
It's very cutthroat, and they don't it's not necessarily heartfelt,
Like you don't lead with your heart. And I know
in church you have to show more grace and lead
with your heart. And although I love people, I come
from a space where it's like we're not.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Getting a job done. This team, isn't it. Let me
get a whole new team, or let me get the pieces,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
And with church, you gotta show a little more grace
because again, like he said, it could be a domino
effect if I, you know, let Timmy go, and Timmy's.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Mom is one of the mothers that's been here for
twenty years, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
And that could hurt a lot of feelings. So it's
like I have to rely on him in that space
because this is what he does. This is that he
knows this space way more than I'm jumping in here.
So I gotta I gotta get in where not necessarily
where I fit in. I have to learn the culture
of leading people in a spiritual and you know, faith
(23:27):
based space.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
You know, it brings up the question, you know, Ken,
you had mentioned that it was a calling for you
and Gary Indiana by the way, another who's you're here worse? Indiana?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Know what?
Speaker 4 (23:40):
Oh? Yeah, what looks like you might be having Indiana
bears man.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yes, and I'm may well.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
So we've been praying about it. Yeah. But you know,
for you as a calling, Shanee, you stepped into this
right you took that time. I'm curious. I'm going to
kind of say where my mind was going, and you
respond with what was actually true? But you know you
took time away. You weren't necessarily right away, like I
want to just dive into this, and at some point
(24:12):
you said, no, I'm ready. Was it a calling for
you or was it more of an intentional decision? How
did you feel like you were ready to step into
church leadership?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Ooh, it is a good question.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I think it was.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I think it was a little bit of both.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I felt like I felt like something was tugging at
me to jump in, but I wasn't sure that my
mindset was ready for it because of how, you know,
how I functioned, and I.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Was like, I don't know if if I'm ready, and
I don't.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
It's not It wasn't spiritually, it was more again, I
think it was a mindset of just like I don't
think I think the way I need to think leadership
wise to jump into this space yet, so I need
to I need to just sit in it, kind of
digest it, kind of even watch him and shadow him.
(25:14):
I wanted to be around it more. And he'll tell you,
like the first when I first thought I was ready
to jump in, I probably quit on him at least
three times the office and get in the car and
be like, you know what, you and that office and
everybody in it can stay there.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
I'm being home. I don't. I'll be there on Sundays,
but the weekday stuff I can't do. But I had
to just keep and then he would get frustrated with.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
Me, like, yeah, you're in or you're out.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
You can't just keep doing this. So that was his voice,
by the So it goes between that and.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
What was anyway, So I got, I put my big
girl pants on, and I just was like I had
I have a love of genuine love for people. I
told them, I said, let me start a hug ministry
because that's what I love.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
You know.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I just want to love on people and I feel
I feel like I feel people's feelings.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
It just if you come by me and you are
you're sad, or you're hurting, or so, I like, I
feel that what that's called what's that? What is that called? Okay?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Anyway, so I feel and so anyway, I was like,
I want to get in there. I have a heart
for women and children, you know. And I started with
my women's ministry just honestly bringing organically who I am.
It wasn't that I was in there quoting Bible scriptures
and giving them sermons. It was more of a safe
(26:54):
space to be able to talk to other women about
whatever that thing is. Maybe it's relationships, maybe it's you know,
you lost yourself in your relationship or your marriage or motherhood.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
You know, like those spaces and even for our young
women talking about sex, talking about things that they found
to be not necessarily church topics but needed somebody to
talk to. I wanted to be that. I wanted to
organically create that space for them, and we have. So
that's where I initially jumped in. And now he just
(27:31):
has me running the whole church. I couldn't run this
place if I wanted to do it so much it's
just too much. But I love it. I love it
every good of it.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
I want to dive in, if you don't mind, I
do want to reference a couple of things that you
too have done that I think people would really benefit from. Shawnee,
you have a book out. It's a memoir Undefeated, changing
the rules and winning on my own terms. And then
key On you have a book out called The Shift,
Courageously moving from season to season. If anybody out there
(28:11):
that's listening or watching this and wants to dive in
more to these spectacular leaders, I think both those resources
would be really good for you and probably fairly enjoyable.
But I want to take the last you know, twenty
minutes or shit, So if you don't mind, and ask
(28:32):
some questions to the two of you. Because of researching
you and learning about the way you guys operate and
listening to your podcast, The Grown and Growing Shannie, you
have a production company that's it says in there, it's
committed to stories that move culture forward. You obviously care
(28:54):
so much about women and where they're at and the
season of life they're in. Key On, you're leading this church.
You obviously just shared two stories where you've somehow built
a place where people feel comfortable stepping forward with some
of their biggest vulnerabilities and requests and prayers in life,
(29:15):
which I don't think should go unnoticed. That they feel
like they can ask, they feel like they can share.
But in the season we're at right now, as a
culture or as a church community, I've said it many
times on this show, I think the church today is
known more for what it's against than what it's for.
(29:35):
How do you see the church growing? Like, where do
you see Jesus calling you to two as a church
body or as a church with the big sea globally,
where do you hope it goes? Where do you see
it going? What are you experiencing at your own church?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, that's a great question. I'm actually writing a book
on that exact topic right now. I really believe that
the church has done and I know it gets a
lot of traditionally religious people upset when I say this,
But the church has done a lot of talking, but
we haven't done a lot of listening.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
And I'm actually believing.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
That this figment of our maged imagination that the church
is somehow shutting down, Statistics don't support it. Statistics support
the fact that there's an upticking religion and people are
coming back to Jesus and coming back to God, and
that's a statistical fact. I believe that people were walking away,
(30:39):
not from.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
God.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I just think that they were walking away from a
version of faith that no longer made sense, and that
this place that says it was for everybody turned out
not to really be for everybody, and that it tended
to skew towards this safety net for those those people
who all believed, said and thought the same things. I
(31:04):
think the big sea is standing back up. Come unto me,
all ye that labor and our heavy laden and I will.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Give you rest.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
I think that the multiculturalism of churches filled with those
who are white and black and Latino, like this gumbo,
if you will, this hoshpoge, this soup of people coming
back together where we're going to all be getting along
and somehow making an impact on earth that looks like
(31:33):
what heaven will look like. And so I believe that
the church has to listen. I think that we have
to realize that the people in our pews are affected
by traumas and triggers that didn't exist twenty years ago.
I think that we have to We don't have to
change the message Jesus is still the center thing, but
I think we have to change the way we offer
(31:55):
that message. I think that we have to be leanients
to our assimilation processes. Somebody said to us, sometimes it's
harder to get in the White House than it is
to become active in the church. I thought, Wow, isn't
that's something to say? So I think that we have
to recalibrate, rethink, and reissue our mind into a place
(32:17):
where where this thing is really going to be open
for all. It's got to be open for all, and
it just can't be open to some. I think that
that's where the church is going. And you look at
these young people listen, you can say whatever they want.
They are radical. They are radical for God like they
will worship six and seven hours straight. I'm telling you
what I know because we've seen it in our own context.
So that's where we are. I think it's let me
(32:40):
sum it up this way, a less complicated route to
a king who is very simplistic, who has love for you,
no matter what your status, culture, creed or colorist. And
I think we re engineered the process listen a little
more and help people walk the line and make them
feel worthy no matter what stage.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Of the process that they're in. It's why when I
hear that, I do think, Shanee, what you were saying
where it's like you're just a hugger, like you want
to have a hug ministry. That for me feels like
a breath of fresh air for somebody that works within,
you know, the Christian realm on a daily basis, somebody
that says, no, I'm going to care for you where
(33:23):
you're at, hear what's going on. I'm going to talk
to you about sex. I'm going to talk to you
about dating. I'm going to talk to you about finances.
I'm just gonna hear your story. I'm going to listen,
you know, more than anything else I hear that, I'm thinking,
this is such a vital piece to what Keon's saying,
to the strategy of let's simplify it, but also let's listen.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Yeah, for sure, it's so many people that just need
you to listen. It was a young lady. She came
up to me Sunday, but it's been probably a couple
of months ago. Keon prayed for her.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
And her friend and they just were and he was
praying form and I went over it, and all I
did was hug on them right, both of them. I
just hugged them until they got it together, rubbed their back,
told them it was gonna be.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
I didn't know what it was about. And I told
them both, I said, I don't have to know what's
going on here.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
You know.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
I'm here for hugs. I'm here for whatever you need.
So you know, they said, thank you. Moved on.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Having seen them in weeks, she walks up to me
Sunday and she goes, I just wanted to come and
get another one of your hugs.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
And I said, absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
So I hug her and she holds on, and I
hold on as long as she holds on, and then
when she lets go, she goes, I just needed one
of those, I told my mom. She goes, I'm here
in Houston by myself, besides my friend that I came
with in her mom, he said, but I don't have
any family, and you were the closest hug that I've received,
that's closest to my mom's hug. And I called my
(35:00):
mom when I left church last time and told her
that first lady has has a hug like yours.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
And she hugged me today and it reminded me of you,
and it's all she goes.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
I was ready to just give it all up, like
I was so discouraged, and I was, and she was like,
now that I know that you're here and I can
get a hug almost just like I would get at home,
it's worth becoming every Sunday. I was like, well, you
come get that hug every Sunday because what we're not
gonna do is let you give it all up, you know. So,
but that's that's just how important that I'd lean over
(35:30):
to Keyon all the time in church and just be like,
oh my god, that person she just needs a hug
or he just needs a hug, you know, like you
can tell you can feel it. Sometimes. I know I'm
that person where I'll tell him I'll be like, oh
my god, you know, Mama Pam has such good hugs.
I'm just gonna go let her just go go hug
hug Mama Pam when I'll be back, you know. But
(35:52):
it's like, you know, it's so important, and just like
you said, and like he says, listening, sometimes they don't
even need you to have a response or need you
to give them an answer, sometimes it's just like, let
me tell you how crappy things are right now and
how frustrated I am.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
I might need you to help me with this tomorrow,
but right now I just need to tell you. I
need to share it with somebody.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
So it's just being again that safe space and understanding
that there is a balance. And you know, we grew
up in a church where if you messed up, you
had to tell everybody you messed up, and like, you know, like,
oh my god, I'm a horrible person. It was like
a fear of messing up, right, but nobody shared with
you that that's a part of life, Like there's a
(36:37):
balance in walking this walk and living this life. It's
not gonna be perfect. You're gonna make mistakes and that's okay.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
I don't know that. I heard the pastor of my
church say, oh, you're gonna sin, and it's still okay.
You know God's gonna forgive you. And it not that
you just should keep doing it. You're trying to be better.
But it was almost like a fear of like you
want a fear of God, but you don't want a
fear of like religion. You don't want a fear of church.
(37:07):
You don't want the fear of Gosh, if I'm mess
up or I'm dressed wrong, I can't go in there
and fellowship and have some type of community. So we
are absolutely trying to open the doors of like it's
a community. It's a family here too.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
We're all on this walk together, and we're all trying
to be a better person every single day.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
And if you're a little behind, it's okay, you know,
like I'll hold your hand and try to catch you up,
or either maybe I'll just slow down and let you
walk with me. I'll walk a little slower so we
could walk it together. But however you come, what's the
saying you say, come as.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
You are, don't leave like you can.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah, come as you are and don't leave like you came.
That's the whole point. So I know I rambled there.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
No, there's a quote that stands out to me. It
was asked to me years ago into prison that I
was at in Honduras, and it comes from a fairly
famous author.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
But the.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
Person in prison was asking me, do I believe that
the church should be a desert in the oasis or
an oasis in the desert, So meaning when you come
into church. Should it feel like a breath of fresh air?
Or should you come in from the outside world to
the church and be, like, you know, pounded for all
the mistakes you've made, and consistently more and more. If
(38:26):
I am seeing that the oasis is a place that
not only attracts, but it also helps her fine and
it also helps people open up about what's really going on,
so nothing's hidden. I'm assuming your church is fairly diverse.
So I'm gonna like ask the probably twenty thousand dollars
(38:48):
question that somebody would want to ask you if they
paid for your consulting fees in a time like this,
how do you lead a diverse congregation of people from
all different backgrounds while talks of life family dynamics like
you said, if they're black, White, Latino, Asian coming into
this one place where they're worshiping Jesus and celebrating others,
(39:12):
how do you lead that well? And how do you
allow everybody to shine knowing everybody's different?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
A great question. So I think that the thing that
we've done that has helped is I think that everything
that's in the congregation has to be represented in leadership.
So I have people on staff who have the experiences
of the people who are sitting in the chairs. So
my director of church management is a white guy that
(39:40):
plays the acoustic guitar. And then I've got a lady
who works with the volunteers. She's a country girl and
you would think she's somewhere from Louisiana or.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
You know, Mississippi. She carries all the words out.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Then we've got we got and we got a huge
consortium of seniors that go to our church, Like this
is the spunkiest group of seniors you've ever seen in
your life. They call themselves the Oaces Ministry, and they
go on trips and take buses across this country. They
move more than the singles ministry. I think every ministry
(40:19):
and it needs to learn from them. But we've got
somebody that age and stage on staff. So everything men,
everything that we want to see in the congregation, we
put it on the staff so that that consortium of
people have a voice at the at the table, and
that way when we're making decisions, it isn't monolithic. Everything
decision isn't made from the perspective of a young African
(40:43):
American man from.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Gary, Indiana.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
It's also Caleb Hornicamp and it's Uh, Jordan Verda. For
who's Who's Latino, It's it's it's Ryan, it's uh. And females,
it's my wife. It's so every everybody Uda who speaks
fluence Spanish. We've got it all here, and everybody speaks
(41:07):
up for what they represent, which allows us to present
a menu where everybody can eat.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
On Sundays.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
I think that it's something about it's something about Lighthouse.
And I'm not saying that just because it's our church,
but it's something about Lighthouse.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
And when you come in this building, the glory is
so it's just apparent, right, you come in and you
just feel it. We had a white woman on Sunday
come Hope, Hope. She had an overall she had her
face was pierced up right, and you just she stood out,
(41:50):
you know, like mohawk type hair cut.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
It was just like she stood out. But she got there,
and I mean from the time church started tears, but
like happy tears, not sad tears. It was just like
she was just full. So after service she gets to
Keya or maybe you got to her. I'm not sure
if she came to So she's still just smiling, but
(42:16):
tears coming down her face. So I can see them,
but I can't see what's going on. So he tells
me to come over and he tells her and he said,
say what she just said, and she was like, I'm
an atheist and I don't know what I'm feeling in here,
but I never want to not feel it again. And
I don't know what this is. And she was like,
(42:38):
I'm just so full of like her cheeks were all rosie,
I mean just and she was like, I don't live
around here at all, and she had a story on
how she ended up there that morning, but she was like,
I live far but I'm going to be online every
Sunday from her because I just want to feel whatever this.
I don't know what this is.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
I can't describe, but it's you know, So it was
just those type of things. It's something about it. It's genuine,
it's real, it's not performative.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
It just happened.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Sometimes he doesn't even get to a sermon because it's
just God is in that room, you know what I mean,
and it's appearent and you feel it. So everybody culture.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
I remember, hope the rest of my life. Yeah, I'm
serious because before service even started, I told my wife,
I said, look at that lady. I don't think she
knew anybody. No, I mean, she just was over there
and I'm like, look at her. And for me it
felt gratifying because I'm like, hey, look at the atmosphere
were created where people just feel we will come in.
Speaker 4 (43:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
So I never thought I was going to see her
because she was sitting on the other side of the building.
This lady came out of her seat, came again that welcoming.
She walked on the altar the front, right in front
of the stage, and she was like pointing at me,
like telling people, I want to talk to him. So
I'll turn around and Hope said. I said, hey, Hope,
(44:03):
she's everything that my wife said. And then I invited
them back. I said, Hope, just come back next to it.
She said, I'll live around here. I said, okay, well,
dud watch us online. She said, yeah, I'll just watch.
Speaker 6 (44:16):
It's always it's the stories like this though, that like
I want to sit in because right like having that moment,
that first moment of feeling overwhelmed the love of God
and not being able to put words to it is
(44:36):
what drives us to do what we do today and
drives you know, anybody that's had really that I think
moment to do what they do today.
Speaker 4 (44:44):
And it's the moments where you know, they are not
talked about, they're not shared. It's sometimes there's not a
platform to celebrate them, but it's the reminder, if anything,
of when you feel that and you experience God, nothing
will be the same ever again. But it's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
It is.
Speaker 4 (45:07):
And I want to just again as we close up,
say you know, well done, thank you for the time today,
thank you for letting me dig in and ask the
questions and explore. If you want to hear more from
these two wonderful people, you can listen to them on
the Grown and Growing podcast. Make sure you rate and
(45:27):
review if it's positive after listening. You can find that
everywhere I'm assuming right, yeah, yeah, you can find it
everywhere you listen to podcasts. And if you're in the
Houston area, it sounds like I need to be a
lighthouse church stop in right, open.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Door for anybody visiting, anybody, anybody'll stop me today and
they told us all the cities that people had come from. Yeah,
and it was like, I'm serious, man, it was like
twenty different cities. It was like Pittsburgh, Chicago, Miami, New York.
I was like, oh my god, those.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Are our first time visitors last just last week. So yes, Bend,
you need to make a quick visit to Houston. Come
on a Saturday night, visit us on Sunday morning.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (46:17):
It sounds like something absolutely fantastic the two of you,
Thank you again, and thanks to you for joining us on.
If you could hear me, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
We're awesome. Thank you.
Speaker 4 (46:29):
Yes, hey, friends, thanks for listening or watching. Would you
take a second, follow, subscribe, and drop a comment. It
really helps
I don't know that I intended originally to slow down.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
This much for your I don't know even how he
got up there and I picked him up and I said,
whose child is this? This little boy looks at me
and says, hey, you pray for us to get a house.
We're tired of sleeping in the car.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
It's just being intentional about each other.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
The church has done a lot of talking, but we
haven't done a lot of listening that.
Speaker 4 (00:26):
I like them.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
That and.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
Welcome to if you can hear me, a space where
culture meets the soul. I'm Ben Higgins. You may know
me from The Bachelor, and you may know some of
my guests from culture and Headlines, but this podcast is
about going beyond the surface into something deeper. Today's guests
are Shawnnie Henderson and Kean Henderson, a couple whose story
brings together culture, leadership, and faith. Shawnnie is an entrepreneur
(00:57):
and creator of the his series Basketball Wives, and Keon
serves as senior pastor of the Lighthouse Church and Ministries
in Houston, where he leads a growing community focused on
faith service and transformation. Together, they share openly about marriage, communication,
and what it takes to build a life of purpose
in the public eye.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Kean and Shanee, thanks for joining me. I hear so
as we prep for this uh chat today, I've heard
nothing but incredible things about the two of you. I
was actually told from somebody knows you well that if
I can like somehow figure out a way that you
(01:38):
two will have me like cackling laughing, that you're extremely
funny people. But I have to just like walk into that.
So we'll see if I can do that.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Well, okay, well it's definitely probably her O, she's hilarious,
Probably not me.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
That's not on purpose.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Well that's what the That's what the best people are.
They're not funny on purpose, They're just funny because of
who they are. I want to start this off. You're
here today. You both are up to a lot. I
was just joking with the two of you. Usually for
an interview like this, i'll get a page and a
half to two pages of notes, and one of our
producers sent over eight pages of notes on the two
of you. So you're very active.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
But I want to start with Your printer is double doubling.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I actually did double check when.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I fas big font.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
It's interesting though, because it does lead me to what
I want to start with, and Shanny, I'll start with you.
You you are up to a lot, and the two
of you have accomplished so much together and then as individuals.
But one of the notes right off the bat that
just captivated me, and the line in here says reinvention
is always possible because right now people could find you
(02:58):
baking on a Saturday, hosting like a slow but like
really intentional gathering, or being at church together. So it
feels like at this season of life you are intentionally
slowing down. Or am I wrong?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Oh yeah, no, that's absolutely correct. I don't know that I.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Intended originally to slow down this much, but as I did,
it just organically.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I love the slow pace, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I always say, like even moving from LA to Houston,
it was the slow down that I didn't know I needed.
Oh so I got here in life just kind of
slowed me down and I was like, oh I like this,
and I didn't have that.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I had no reason to be in a rush.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So that you know, it happened organically and now I'm
super intentional about keep been here.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
It's interesting because I live in Denver. I've always lived
in Denver, but LA was such a large piece of
my life for so long, for ten years plus, and
I never moved there because I felt like it was
always a race. I felt like I had to dress
a little bit better, I had to tell people I
(04:21):
was doing cooler things than I was actually doing all
the time. And so I want to dig into that
a little bit because I have so many friends who
have moved from you know, Los Angeles, and Los Angeles
is a great place for so many reasons, but it
also is a difficult place because so many people are
up to so much. Have you had any kind of
(04:42):
like crisis in the midst of this as things have
slowed down to where you feel like I'm not doing enough.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Not necessarily crisis, there are times that, well, not anymore,
but there were times where I was like, yeah, I'm
not doing enough, or I wasn't as intertwined in like
my show.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
My show was being you know, filmed and produced and
everything in LA and me being so disconnected. I was
absolutely kind of in I think those first couple of years,
I was in a bit of a panic of like,
this is all going to fall apart because I'm not
in that hustle and bustle of things that I was
and was used to, but I literally just kind of
(05:27):
sat in it and was and it was. I mean,
you can honestly say I had him in La so
much like the first the first couple of years, I
was like, I gotta go and I gotta be there
for like a month, and I we got, you know,
and then we'll come back, and then I gotta go
back and I gotta be there for like, you know,
another six weeks. So I had to train myself to
(05:47):
come out of it, because you're right, it is like
we're all in a rush in LA for whatever reason.
And I think now that it's so many people.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
That are there for Hollywood and they make it that way.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
You know. I grew up up in La, so to me,
wasn't that until I got into Hollywood, and then I
was like, oh wait, we're all.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
In a rush.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
We gotta have meetings, and if you're not having meetings
and you're not having dinner at the cool spots, then
you're not doing anything.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
But that's so false, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
So now I go and I see my family and
just chill and I literally intentionally don't go to the
cool restaurants, don't hang out in the places, don't do
the meetings.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I do none of that. I just go and just
enjoy my family and brands.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
The show that you're speaking of is Basketball Wives. What
an amazing run Basketball Wives has had, And if I'm right,
it just was announced that it's not going to be
renewing for another season, right.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Right, We closed the door close that chapter.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
But what an incredible, you know, success that was, and
I think so much of it can That's where I'll
come to you, is, you know, because people people right
now feel like they can get a glimpse of the celebrity,
glimpse of the lifestyles of the people that are hustling
and bustling and going to the cool restaurants and doing
those things. And so much of America loves watching that
(07:08):
because that's not the life necessarily we live. You're a pastor,
You're the founding pastor right at Lighthouse Church in Houston.
I have quite a few pastor buddies, and I would
say the same thing about them. They feel like they're
living under a microscope a lot of times, and that
the congregations are not only sending them messages when they
(07:30):
don't like the sermon that was preached, but they're also
watching every decision they make in their life. For you,
as a pastor of a very fruitful church, how do
you navigate that as well? How do you stay grounded
and how do you find time just to take a
breath outside of what could be a very very intense career.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Well, you know, I'm still trying to figure that out.
To be quite frank it is very difficult. It is
very challenging, but the nuances and the rewards are extraordinary. Like,
I'm a people lover, so when I see something just
happened for us this past Sunday, I was preaching a
sermon and right at the end of the sermon, a
(08:16):
little boy maybe three, yeah, four years old, he walks
up to the front of the church. Man just four
year old. I don't know even how he got up there.
And I picked him up and I said, whose child
is this? Whose baby is this? And nobody said anything.
I said who had him?
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Like?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Who this boy? And they said his mom is back there.
And while I have him in my arms, Benjamin, this
little boy looks at me and says, can you pray
for us to get a house? We're tired of sleeping
in the car, like come on, man, like that right
there takes care of seven bads. And so we got
(08:58):
the mother. She had two other kids with her, so
she had three kids. We started off with getting her
a hotel room for the week, used some resources, founder
a transition house now that she can move her children into.
And then through that process they're going to move her
into a voucher system where she can get permanent housing.
So for me, you know, a microscope, it is intense,
(09:22):
but those rewards seeing stuff like that, man, it is
for a person who's built like me, it's amazing. Simultaneously, soon,
either before or after that, there's another young man who's
twenty two years old, same service. He walks up to
the front and he holds up a mask and he says,
(09:45):
I don't want to do this anymore. And I looked
at it, and I told the guys who were with me,
I said, look at that. It was a ski mask.
It's the mask that he used to rob people. I
came up there and said, because of this ceremonies, I've
been watching you three weeks. He says, I don't want
to do is anymore, and he threw it down on
the stage like for me, Yeah, all of that difficulty
(10:07):
is made easier because of the WOH outcomes, if you
will of stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
I want to dig into this a little bit though,
and I have a couple questions based on what we
were talking about, but I want to dig in a
little bit to the health though of you. You know,
these outcomes are God breed and they're perfect and timing.
But I guess I'll start with this and then I'll
dig into maybe like how you guys stay healthy and obviously,
(10:34):
as the first lady of the church, Shani, I love
for you to speak about this. You both have a
heart for caring for people. That's obvious from the work
that you've done. You're brilliant, right, you can go everywhere
and create a television show, you can also care for
people well in the spaces that they need it like that.
That's just you guys are unique people that are doing
(10:55):
great things. But you have this heart for others. As
you just meant, why do you two choose to do
it through a church? Steuting like why is the church
and why is preaching about Jesus something that you chose
to do instead of maybe starting an organization or building
a nice big business and giving money way that way.
(11:15):
Why does the church feel like the right place to
do it?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, because for me, the way I live my life,
the church isn't a choice as a calling, and so
I was born to do this. I was born for
this specific purpose. I audibly remember when I was fourteen
in July of nineteen ninety five and Gary, Indiana. The
(11:39):
address is twenty three twenty three West Eleventh Avenue. I
remember the day I felt in my soul that this
is what I was supposed to dedicate my life to.
And so for me, it's a calling. And you talked
about the health of it. I think that people remain
healthy based on the diet they feed themselves. Don't feed
(12:00):
myself negativity. I don't feed myself the opinions of people
who never met me. It's easy to misunderstand somebody from
a distance. I eat from the tree of people who
are close enough to know me.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
I get.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I get a sense of belonging and awareness of who
I am based on the people who love me and
who are honest about what they see in me. So
I refuse to allow strangers to make me sick. I
just I just I just won't do it now. If
it happens, it won't be because I let it. It'll
be because of something over overtook me that I couldn't uh,
(12:35):
that I couldn't fight back. But I promise you having
a positive, stealth awareness of who you are. That's a
good position to be in. Whether you're a pastor or
a podcaster, whether you are an athlete, or whether you
drive a race car a NASCAR, you have to start
with the foundation of knowing who you are, because if
(12:56):
you don't know who you are, then you are whoever
they call you in marriage.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
You guys have a podcast that's so fun to listen to,
But I'll be honest and admit I hadn't listened to
it till I prep for this, and I will be
subscribing and clicking and liking and doing all the things
that are good in that world. It's called the Grown
and Growing Podcasts, where you two are very open about
relationships and your personal lives and how you guys come together.
(13:25):
You just mentioned that you don't listen to the outside voices,
but yet you know I'm not newly married. I'm going
on five years, but we just had our first baby.
She's one years old. My wife and I are in
a whole new season of new challenges. It's been wonderful
for us, but there's new challenges, and I think we're
trying to figure out in this season how to lean
on each other more and what to lean on with
(13:47):
each other and maybe what you know, we need to
ask some of our closest friends to help out with.
So for you too, as you talked about not listening
to the outside voices and the negativity in a world
where both of you are very well known, how do
you two come together and support each other.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Well, I think we were committed to communication. That's one thing.
It's so funny. First of all, congratulations on the baby's.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Nice thana wanana.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Are you guys having more?
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Oh goodness? If my wife out of her way, we'd
have a Yeah, we need a bigger house. We Uh.
She's ready again. She's took her first steps this week.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
So that's so. Those days are the best. They goes
so fast.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
So yeah, Dad's a little sad right now. I'm a
little bummed out about it. I wanted her to stay
in my arms, but right right.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Right, wait till she's like not wanting to hold your hands.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
All.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Well, it's it's stages. But I think you have to
be intentional again about carving out time. And that's something that.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
I didn't know in my previous life, but now I do.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
You know what I mean, It's like we are intentional
about carving out time for each other, and you know,
even today. So we're in office today and we were
in our staff meeting and on the way to the office,
Kean didn't say a word to me, Like we don't
ride in a car and just are silent. That's not normal.
(15:22):
Like on Sunday mornings, I know he's focused, you know,
so I don't. We don't talk a lot, but it's
something said. So this morning, he wakes up and it's
good morning. I'm already up because anyway, I'm getting ready.
So he gets up, it's good morning, and I don't
think we said another word to each other until probably
an hour after we're in the office. So I'm thinking,
(15:47):
I'm thinking all types of things. I know that he's
in the zone, but at the same time, I'm kind
of like, like, sir, Okay, you're in the zone, but
is it that serious? Like you could say something, but
I don't buy the room. We get to the office,
he acknowledges that he hasn't talked to me.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
All morning, but he does it in staff right, He's like.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
I haven't talked to my wife all morning, and I'm
on the inside, I'm like, exactly, that's what I want
to do in front of the staff.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
But I know I know what it is.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
I didn't take it personal. I knew what it was.
But I say all that to say he knows that
because of that, he's gonna dedicate his eating me.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
I knew that, he knew what you're gonna save before
you send it. But anybody's watching this, they're gonna.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
On your podcast, so listen, you and everybody else. It's mine.
So but he knows that, and I know that, so
I don't. I don't have to say it. You know,
he acknowledged it.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
But it's just being intentional about each other and carving
out those those moments where we're not our best selves
to each other, but compensating in a space where it's like,
I know I wasn't my self to you based on
something that you had nothing to do with, but acknowledging
that and owning that and being self aware that I
(17:09):
know this morning. I probably should have gotten breakfast, but
I was in my head about something else that he
doesn't even know what is going on. So let me
come back when he comes back home from.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Whatever his day is. I have dinner made, I have
you know. But being intentional about each other is my
whole point, you know, and just making sure that we
carve out that time we sit and we talk about
hard things, you know, sometimes it's gonna be hard conversations,
but learning each other in a way, and I think
that's something else. You know that you have to continue
(17:39):
to learn somebody. You're never you're never not learning them.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Because I always say, if somebody had told me a
long time ago that I was going to be reintroducing
myself to myself over and over again for the rest
of my life, then your partner has to know that
they're going to re They're gonna have to introduce themselves
to the new youth every time, you you know. So
that's just something that's like, as we say, a tool
(18:03):
in our toolbox and we know like, oh, okay, that's
not the key on that I met. You know that
he's evolved into somebody else. I got to introduce myself
to that person and being intentional about that.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
It's interesting because this weekend we celebrated my mother in
law's sixtieth birthday and we asked her her words of wisdom,
and her words of wisdom were about marriage and relationships,
and she said the same thing you just said, which is,
I'm not the same person that my father in law
married at twenty five years old. The values, the character,
(18:34):
you know, stays fairly consistent, but the priorities and the
ambitions change, and sometimes even the values change. And it's
committing to growing with that person and staying curious is
such a key. And that stood out to me, and
it stands out with the two of you. Now you
also lead together. You lead many people together, and obviously
(18:58):
it comes fairly no, actually, I would assume, because you
obviously live together as well. But how do you navigate
like the business and the priorities when it comes to
what you know, the church and your ministries require, and
still stay you know, in love and still keep things
romantic between the two of you. Yeah, I think that.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Uh, that was a challenge at first because I hadn't
had any experience with anybody being in the office with me,
and so naturally when my wife came in and you know,
the staff met her and she began to get up positioning. First,
(19:41):
it was easy because she came in saying, I don't
want to do anything. I just want to take a
year and get used to everything.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Me.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
It sounded just like it.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
No, don't make me, I don't feel like it. And
then and all of a sudden, she said, hey, why
won't you use me.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I'm like.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
You said you didn't want to do anything. She says,
I'm ready, now put me in a game, coach. So
we had two different leadership styles, we have two different outlooks,
two totally different perspectives, and at the end of the
day we decided that either we're going to create a
(20:28):
new perspective that both of us align with or agree with,
or we're not gonna get to work together. Right, We're
just not gonna be able to do it. So most
couples will get on here and be like, oh, it
was so fine. We were so in love and we
held hands through the process. No, it was like in
the beginning it was like, yeah, I don't think we
should do this together. I think if you should do
(20:50):
the show, and I'm going to do this, let me
tell you something. I cannot tell you how many things
woman has saved, has saved me from, or helped me
to see that I probably would have missed if she
was not here with I can't, I can't, I can't
(21:10):
even I can't even count it. It'll be sometime I
come back to it, lady and say you saw that
a long time ago. Didn't she'd be like yo. And
now she knows, though that I don't make my decisions
based on her observation in timing. She's free to give
me the observation. I have to digest it and measure
(21:30):
it against all relatable outcomes. What happens if I make
a decision about this situation, that's probably going to set
off a domino effect in another area. So she relies
on my I guess, expertise, our knowledge. I rely on
her intuition. And it's it's so much better now than
(21:56):
it was when we first started, Like right now, Yeah,
it's it's only bad when she disagrees.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Because it's also like leading in church is so very
different from leading in any other space. Right, so his
grace meter is way higher than my grace meter dealing
with just you know, TV production, things like that.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
So it's like, I it's Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
It's very cutthroat, and they don't it's not necessarily heartfelt,
Like you don't lead with your heart. And I know
in church you have to show more grace and lead
with your heart. And although I love people, I come
from a space where it's like we're not.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Getting a job done. This team, isn't it. Let me
get a whole new team, or let me get the pieces,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
And with church, you gotta show a little more grace
because again, like he said, it could be a domino
effect if I, you know, let Timmy go, and Timmy's.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Mom is one of the mothers that's been here for
twenty years, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
And that could hurt a lot of feelings. So it's
like I have to rely on him in that space
because this is what he does. This is that he
knows this space way more than I'm jumping in here.
So I gotta I gotta get in where not necessarily
where I fit in. I have to learn the culture
of leading people in a spiritual and you know, faith
(23:27):
based space.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
You know, it brings up the question, you know, Ken,
you had mentioned that it was a calling for you
and Gary Indiana by the way, another who's you're here worse? Indiana?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Know what?
Speaker 4 (23:40):
Oh? Yeah, what looks like you might be having Indiana
bears man.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yes, and I'm may well.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
So we've been praying about it. Yeah. But you know,
for you as a calling, Shanee, you stepped into this
right you took that time. I'm curious. I'm going to
kind of say where my mind was going, and you
respond with what was actually true? But you know you
took time away. You weren't necessarily right away, like I
want to just dive into this, and at some point
(24:12):
you said, no, I'm ready. Was it a calling for
you or was it more of an intentional decision? How
did you feel like you were ready to step into
church leadership?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Ooh, it is a good question.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I think it was.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I think it was a little bit of both.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I felt like I felt like something was tugging at
me to jump in, but I wasn't sure that my
mindset was ready for it because of how, you know,
how I functioned, and I.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Was like, I don't know if if I'm ready, and
I don't.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
It's not It wasn't spiritually, it was more again, I
think it was a mindset of just like I don't
think I think the way I need to think leadership
wise to jump into this space yet, so I need
to I need to just sit in it, kind of
digest it, kind of even watch him and shadow him.
(25:14):
I wanted to be around it more. And he'll tell you,
like the first when I first thought I was ready
to jump in, I probably quit on him at least
three times the office and get in the car and
be like, you know what, you and that office and
everybody in it can stay there.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
I'm being home. I don't. I'll be there on Sundays,
but the weekday stuff I can't do. But I had
to just keep and then he would get frustrated with.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
Me, like, yeah, you're in or you're out.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
You can't just keep doing this. So that was his voice,
by the So it goes between that and.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
What was anyway, So I got, I put my big
girl pants on, and I just was like I had
I have a love of genuine love for people. I
told them, I said, let me start a hug ministry
because that's what I love.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
You know.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I just want to love on people and I feel
I feel like I feel people's feelings.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
It just if you come by me and you are
you're sad, or you're hurting, or so, I like, I
feel that what that's called what's that? What is that called? Okay?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Anyway, so I feel and so anyway, I was like,
I want to get in there. I have a heart
for women and children, you know. And I started with
my women's ministry just honestly bringing organically who I am.
It wasn't that I was in there quoting Bible scriptures
and giving them sermons. It was more of a safe
(26:54):
space to be able to talk to other women about
whatever that thing is. Maybe it's relationships, maybe it's you know,
you lost yourself in your relationship or your marriage or motherhood.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
You know, like those spaces and even for our young
women talking about sex, talking about things that they found
to be not necessarily church topics but needed somebody to
talk to. I wanted to be that. I wanted to
organically create that space for them, and we have. So
that's where I initially jumped in. And now he just
(27:31):
has me running the whole church. I couldn't run this
place if I wanted to do it so much it's
just too much. But I love it. I love it
every good of it.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
I want to dive in, if you don't mind, I
do want to reference a couple of things that you
too have done that I think people would really benefit from. Shawnee,
you have a book out. It's a memoir Undefeated, changing
the rules and winning on my own terms. And then
key On you have a book out called The Shift,
Courageously moving from season to season. If anybody out there
(28:11):
that's listening or watching this and wants to dive in
more to these spectacular leaders, I think both those resources
would be really good for you and probably fairly enjoyable.
But I want to take the last you know, twenty
minutes or shit, So if you don't mind, and ask
(28:32):
some questions to the two of you. Because of researching
you and learning about the way you guys operate and
listening to your podcast, The Grown and Growing Shannie, you
have a production company that's it says in there, it's
committed to stories that move culture forward. You obviously care
(28:54):
so much about women and where they're at and the
season of life they're in. Key On, you're leading this church.
You obviously just shared two stories where you've somehow built
a place where people feel comfortable stepping forward with some
of their biggest vulnerabilities and requests and prayers in life,
(29:15):
which I don't think should go unnoticed. That they feel
like they can ask, they feel like they can share.
But in the season we're at right now, as a
culture or as a church community, I've said it many
times on this show, I think the church today is
known more for what it's against than what it's for.
(29:35):
How do you see the church growing? Like, where do
you see Jesus calling you to two as a church
body or as a church with the big sea globally,
where do you hope it goes? Where do you see
it going? What are you experiencing at your own church?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, that's a great question. I'm actually writing a book
on that exact topic right now. I really believe that
the church has done and I know it gets a
lot of traditionally religious people upset when I say this,
But the church has done a lot of talking, but
we haven't done a lot of listening.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
And I'm actually believing.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
That this figment of our maged imagination that the church
is somehow shutting down, Statistics don't support it. Statistics support
the fact that there's an upticking religion and people are
coming back to Jesus and coming back to God, and
that's a statistical fact. I believe that people were walking away,
(30:39):
not from.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
God.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I just think that they were walking away from a
version of faith that no longer made sense, and that
this place that says it was for everybody turned out
not to really be for everybody, and that it tended
to skew towards this safety net for those those people
who all believed, said and thought the same things. I
(31:04):
think the big sea is standing back up. Come unto me,
all ye that labor and our heavy laden and I will.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Give you rest.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
I think that the multiculturalism of churches filled with those
who are white and black and Latino, like this gumbo,
if you will, this hoshpoge, this soup of people coming
back together where we're going to all be getting along
and somehow making an impact on earth that looks like
(31:33):
what heaven will look like. And so I believe that
the church has to listen. I think that we have
to realize that the people in our pews are affected
by traumas and triggers that didn't exist twenty years ago.
I think that we have to We don't have to
change the message Jesus is still the center thing, but
I think we have to change the way we offer
(31:55):
that message. I think that we have to be leanients
to our assimilation processes. Somebody said to us, sometimes it's
harder to get in the White House than it is
to become active in the church. I thought, Wow, isn't
that's something to say? So I think that we have
to recalibrate, rethink, and reissue our mind into a place
(32:17):
where where this thing is really going to be open
for all. It's got to be open for all, and
it just can't be open to some. I think that
that's where the church is going. And you look at
these young people listen, you can say whatever they want.
They are radical. They are radical for God like they
will worship six and seven hours straight. I'm telling you
what I know because we've seen it in our own context.
So that's where we are. I think it's let me
(32:40):
sum it up this way, a less complicated route to
a king who is very simplistic, who has love for you,
no matter what your status, culture, creed or colorist. And
I think we re engineered the process listen a little
more and help people walk the line and make them
feel worthy no matter what stage.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Of the process that they're in. It's why when I
hear that, I do think, Shanee, what you were saying
where it's like you're just a hugger, like you want
to have a hug ministry. That for me feels like
a breath of fresh air for somebody that works within,
you know, the Christian realm on a daily basis, somebody
that says, no, I'm going to care for you where
(33:23):
you're at, hear what's going on. I'm going to talk
to you about sex. I'm going to talk to you
about dating. I'm going to talk to you about finances.
I'm just gonna hear your story. I'm going to listen,
you know, more than anything else I hear that, I'm thinking,
this is such a vital piece to what Keon's saying,
to the strategy of let's simplify it, but also let's listen.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Yeah, for sure, it's so many people that just need
you to listen. It was a young lady. She came
up to me Sunday, but it's been probably a couple
of months ago. Keon prayed for her.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
And her friend and they just were and he was
praying form and I went over it, and all I
did was hug on them right, both of them. I
just hugged them until they got it together, rubbed their back,
told them it was gonna be.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
I didn't know what it was about. And I told
them both, I said, I don't have to know what's
going on here.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
You know.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
I'm here for hugs. I'm here for whatever you need.
So you know, they said, thank you. Moved on.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Having seen them in weeks, she walks up to me
Sunday and she goes, I just wanted to come and
get another one of your hugs.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
And I said, absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
So I hug her and she holds on, and I
hold on as long as she holds on, and then
when she lets go, she goes, I just needed one
of those, I told my mom. She goes, I'm here
in Houston by myself, besides my friend that I came
with in her mom, he said, but I don't have
any family, and you were the closest hug that I've received,
that's closest to my mom's hug. And I called my
(35:00):
mom when I left church last time and told her
that first lady has has a hug like yours.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
And she hugged me today and it reminded me of you,
and it's all she goes.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
I was ready to just give it all up, like
I was so discouraged, and I was, and she was like,
now that I know that you're here and I can
get a hug almost just like I would get at home,
it's worth becoming every Sunday. I was like, well, you
come get that hug every Sunday because what we're not
gonna do is let you give it all up, you know. So,
but that's that's just how important that I'd lean over
(35:30):
to Keyon all the time in church and just be like,
oh my god, that person she just needs a hug
or he just needs a hug, you know, like you
can tell you can feel it. Sometimes. I know I'm
that person where I'll tell him I'll be like, oh
my god, you know, Mama Pam has such good hugs.
I'm just gonna go let her just go go hug
hug Mama Pam when I'll be back, you know. But
(35:52):
it's like, you know, it's so important, and just like
you said, and like he says, listening, sometimes they don't
even need you to have a response or need you
to give them an answer, sometimes it's just like, let
me tell you how crappy things are right now and
how frustrated I am.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
I might need you to help me with this tomorrow,
but right now I just need to tell you. I
need to share it with somebody.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
So it's just being again that safe space and understanding
that there is a balance. And you know, we grew
up in a church where if you messed up, you
had to tell everybody you messed up, and like, you know, like,
oh my god, I'm a horrible person. It was like
a fear of messing up, right, but nobody shared with
you that that's a part of life, Like there's a
(36:37):
balance in walking this walk and living this life. It's
not gonna be perfect. You're gonna make mistakes and that's okay.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
I don't know that. I heard the pastor of my
church say, oh, you're gonna sin, and it's still okay.
You know God's gonna forgive you. And it not that
you just should keep doing it. You're trying to be better.
But it was almost like a fear of like you
want a fear of God, but you don't want a
fear of like religion. You don't want a fear of church.
(37:07):
You don't want the fear of Gosh, if I'm mess
up or I'm dressed wrong, I can't go in there
and fellowship and have some type of community. So we
are absolutely trying to open the doors of like it's
a community. It's a family here too.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
We're all on this walk together, and we're all trying
to be a better person every single day.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
And if you're a little behind, it's okay, you know,
like I'll hold your hand and try to catch you up,
or either maybe I'll just slow down and let you
walk with me. I'll walk a little slower so we
could walk it together. But however you come, what's the
saying you say, come as.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
You are, don't leave like you can.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah, come as you are and don't leave like you came.
That's the whole point. So I know I rambled there.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
No, there's a quote that stands out to me. It
was asked to me years ago into prison that I
was at in Honduras, and it comes from a fairly
famous author.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
But the.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
Person in prison was asking me, do I believe that
the church should be a desert in the oasis or
an oasis in the desert, So meaning when you come
into church. Should it feel like a breath of fresh air?
Or should you come in from the outside world to
the church and be, like, you know, pounded for all
the mistakes you've made, and consistently more and more. If
(38:26):
I am seeing that the oasis is a place that
not only attracts, but it also helps her fine and
it also helps people open up about what's really going on,
so nothing's hidden. I'm assuming your church is fairly diverse.
So I'm gonna like ask the probably twenty thousand dollars
(38:48):
question that somebody would want to ask you if they
paid for your consulting fees in a time like this,
how do you lead a diverse congregation of people from
all different backgrounds while talks of life family dynamics like
you said, if they're black, White, Latino, Asian coming into
this one place where they're worshiping Jesus and celebrating others,
(39:12):
how do you lead that well? And how do you
allow everybody to shine knowing everybody's different?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
A great question. So I think that the thing that
we've done that has helped is I think that everything
that's in the congregation has to be represented in leadership.
So I have people on staff who have the experiences
of the people who are sitting in the chairs. So
my director of church management is a white guy that
(39:40):
plays the acoustic guitar. And then I've got a lady
who works with the volunteers. She's a country girl and
you would think she's somewhere from Louisiana or.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
You know, Mississippi. She carries all the words out.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Then we've got we got and we got a huge
consortium of seniors that go to our church, Like this
is the spunkiest group of seniors you've ever seen in
your life. They call themselves the Oaces Ministry, and they
go on trips and take buses across this country. They
move more than the singles ministry. I think every ministry
(40:19):
and it needs to learn from them. But we've got
somebody that age and stage on staff. So everything men,
everything that we want to see in the congregation, we
put it on the staff so that that consortium of
people have a voice at the at the table, and
that way when we're making decisions, it isn't monolithic. Everything
decision isn't made from the perspective of a young African
(40:43):
American man from.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Gary, Indiana.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
It's also Caleb Hornicamp and it's Uh, Jordan Verda. For
who's Who's Latino, It's it's it's Ryan, it's uh. And females,
it's my wife. It's so every everybody Uda who speaks
fluence Spanish. We've got it all here, and everybody speaks
(41:07):
up for what they represent, which allows us to present
a menu where everybody can eat.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
On Sundays.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
I think that it's something about it's something about Lighthouse.
And I'm not saying that just because it's our church,
but it's something about Lighthouse.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
And when you come in this building, the glory is
so it's just apparent, right, you come in and you
just feel it. We had a white woman on Sunday
come Hope, Hope. She had an overall she had her
face was pierced up right, and you just she stood out,
(41:50):
you know, like mohawk type hair cut.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
It was just like she stood out. But she got there,
and I mean from the time church started tears, but
like happy tears, not sad tears. It was just like
she was just full. So after service she gets to
Keya or maybe you got to her. I'm not sure
if she came to So she's still just smiling, but
(42:16):
tears coming down her face. So I can see them,
but I can't see what's going on. So he tells
me to come over and he tells her and he said,
say what she just said, and she was like, I'm
an atheist and I don't know what I'm feeling in here,
but I never want to not feel it again. And
I don't know what this is. And she was like,
(42:38):
I'm just so full of like her cheeks were all rosie,
I mean just and she was like, I don't live
around here at all, and she had a story on
how she ended up there that morning, but she was like,
I live far but I'm going to be online every
Sunday from her because I just want to feel whatever this.
I don't know what this is.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
I can't describe, but it's you know, So it was
just those type of things. It's something about it. It's genuine,
it's real, it's not performative.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
It just happened.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Sometimes he doesn't even get to a sermon because it's
just God is in that room, you know what I mean,
and it's appearent and you feel it. So everybody culture.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
I remember, hope the rest of my life. Yeah, I'm
serious because before service even started, I told my wife,
I said, look at that lady. I don't think she
knew anybody. No, I mean, she just was over there
and I'm like, look at her. And for me it
felt gratifying because I'm like, hey, look at the atmosphere
were created where people just feel we will come in.
Speaker 4 (43:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
So I never thought I was going to see her
because she was sitting on the other side of the building.
This lady came out of her seat, came again that welcoming.
She walked on the altar the front, right in front
of the stage, and she was like pointing at me,
like telling people, I want to talk to him. So
I'll turn around and Hope said. I said, hey, Hope,
(44:03):
she's everything that my wife said. And then I invited
them back. I said, Hope, just come back next to it.
She said, I'll live around here. I said, okay, well,
dud watch us online. She said, yeah, I'll just watch.
Speaker 6 (44:16):
It's always it's the stories like this though, that like
I want to sit in because right like having that moment,
that first moment of feeling overwhelmed the love of God
and not being able to put words to it is
(44:36):
what drives us to do what we do today and
drives you know, anybody that's had really that I think
moment to do what they do today.
Speaker 4 (44:44):
And it's the moments where you know, they are not
talked about, they're not shared. It's sometimes there's not a
platform to celebrate them, but it's the reminder, if anything,
of when you feel that and you experience God, nothing
will be the same ever again. But it's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
It is.
Speaker 4 (45:07):
And I want to just again as we close up,
say you know, well done, thank you for the time today,
thank you for letting me dig in and ask the
questions and explore. If you want to hear more from
these two wonderful people, you can listen to them on
the Grown and Growing podcast. Make sure you rate and
(45:27):
review if it's positive after listening. You can find that
everywhere I'm assuming right, yeah, yeah, you can find it
everywhere you listen to podcasts. And if you're in the
Houston area, it sounds like I need to be a
lighthouse church stop in right, open.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Door for anybody visiting, anybody, anybody'll stop me today and
they told us all the cities that people had come from. Yeah,
and it was like, I'm serious, man, it was like
twenty different cities. It was like Pittsburgh, Chicago, Miami, New York.
I was like, oh my god, those.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Are our first time visitors last just last week. So yes, Bend,
you need to make a quick visit to Houston. Come
on a Saturday night, visit us on Sunday morning.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (46:17):
It sounds like something absolutely fantastic the two of you,
Thank you again, and thanks to you for joining us on.
If you could hear me, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
We're awesome. Thank you.
Speaker 4 (46:29):
Yes, hey, friends, thanks for listening or watching. Would you
take a second, follow, subscribe, and drop a comment. It
really helps
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