March 13, 2026 • 41 mins
Hans and Menelek lift the lid on the FBI's illegal intimidation policy in the 60s known as Cointelpro. In an expansive interview with former deputy head of counter intelligence for the FBI, Frank Figliuzzi, they uncover some shocking facts about how this policy was carried out against Malcolm X, MLK and even the students at Morehouse.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Under Hoover's time, You've got this kind of communist scare.
Bombs are going off, riots in the street. By any
means necessary, you try to quash that threat. What's going
on now in college campuses? As a government, we're not
accepting free speech? Am I a fan of violence?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
No?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Have I worked cases against Hamas a proven terrorist organization? Absolutely?
They are cold blooded evil. Have I seen any evidence
that the people who are being grabbed by masked men
on campus are Hamas? No? I haven't, so. I worry
that we're you know, we're going back. We're going back.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
The A building Episode seven, co Intel.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Pro I want to smoke. Nah, I quit a year ago.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
You know those things supposedly killed Edward R.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Morrow.
Speaker 5 (01:14):
Yeah, yeah, he did a bunch of stories about cigarettes
and cancer.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
He died because he.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Was a socialist. Okay, Dan, where the hell are we going?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
The work of an FBI agent is surprisingly bureaucratic. Files, names, dates,
phone numbers, stakeouts. The two agents you just heard are
delivering warnings, warnings to families. Scenarios like the scenes in
this episode were commonplace. No one is knocking talks. They
were a method of intimidation within the FBI in the
(01:48):
era of Gagar Hoover. He's quoted as saying, it's always
practical to go after the family. That's where it can
hurt the most.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
Hello, can I help you?
Speaker 7 (02:02):
Well?
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Hello, my name is and this is my partner. These
are my credentials. We're sorry to bother you. How are
you this morning?
Speaker 3 (02:12):
You're with who?
Speaker 1 (02:13):
The Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
We have some news about your son.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
First of all, is this your son?
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Let's show her the.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Picture any day now, I know, I know?
Speaker 5 (02:26):
Hold it, damn it, Walter Johnson?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
This him?
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
What is this? Do you know who h.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
Rap Brown is? Ma'am? Walter has been spending a lot
of time at his shop in Atlanta.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I've seen the name in the paper.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
Bad stuff, missus Johnson. These are real radical negroes, the
worst kind. And we know you don't want this for Walter.
You're a god fearing woman, a Christian woman, a school teacher.
You said, Walter to college after losing your husband in Korea?
And then how does he pay you back by getting
kicked out of Moorhouse?
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Behind this Milton crop?
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Is that what you want for him?
Speaker 8 (03:03):
Is he in trouble?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
No?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Not yet.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
We just wanted to let you know they get the
hell off my porch. Jesus Christ.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
You'd think they'd be more grateful, and.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
We just delivered the news.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
They can do with what they please. Well, maybe she
wants to see Walter through plateglass.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
For twenty years.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
In the early sixties, a new and powerful voice emerged
and rose quickly in the movement towards racial equality. H
rapped around, had a big voice, and it was getting bigger,
and the FBI took notice.
Speaker 7 (03:40):
Lyndon Johnson, you can always raise an argument about law
and order because he never talks about justice.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
But black people.
Speaker 7 (03:48):
Fall for that same argument, and they go around talking
about lawbreakers. We did not make the laws in this country.
We'll neither, Marley not legally confined to those laws, those
laws that keep them up keep us.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
You got to begin to understand.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
That a new wave of black social justice spread nationwire
like a firestorm. Leaders like Kaimei terray byb Seal, Angela Davis,
Huey P Newton, and Tupac's mother of Phoenie.
Speaker 7 (04:14):
Chicour violence is a part of America's culture. It as American,
as Jerry Pye American taught the.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Black people to be violent.
Speaker 7 (04:23):
We will use that violin to be it ourselves of oppression.
If necessary, we will be freed by any means necessary.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Who is this man? And why did the FBI care
so much? H?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Rap Brown born Hubert Gerald Brown on October fourth, nineteen
forty three, in Baton, Rouge, Louisiana, emerged as a significant
figure in the American civil rights movement during the nineteen sixties.
His father, Eddie Charles Senior, worked for ESL Oil, and
his mother, Thelma Warren Brown, was a domestic worker and
elementary school teacher. From an early age, Brown showcased exceptional
(04:59):
verbal skills, earning the nickname Rap.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Brown's activism began in his teenage years, when he moved
to Washington, d c. And joined the Non Volid Action
Group inag a local affiliate of the Student Non Violent
Coordinating Committee SNICK. By nineteen sixty seven, browse seceated Stokely
Carmichael as a national chairman of SNICK. As chairman, Brown
(05:22):
was known for his fireI rhetorican stock advocacy for black power.
His speeches often attracted national attention and controversy.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
In nineteen sixty seven, following a speech in Cambridge, Maryland,
Brown was wounded by gunfire from local police officers. Shortly
after he left the state, a local school building burned down,
leading to accusations against Brown for inciting rights, though the
origins of the fire were disputed.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Brown's legal challenges continued into nineteen seventy when two SNICK
members died in a car explosion in Maryland under unclear circumstances.
Brown went into hiding for eighteen months, appearing on the
FBI's ten most wanted lists before being arrested in New York.
During his imprisonment, he can ready to Islam and adopted
(06:10):
the name Jamil Abdullah l Aman.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Look here it is right here.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Oh I see it.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
No, I fucking hate Tennessee. Yeah, pulling over there.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
It's amazing.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
It works so hard to make their houses look normal.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
Hello, my name is This is my partner. These are
my credentials. We're sorry to bother you, ma'am. How are
you this morning?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
For the FBI, the expulsions at Morehouse were an opportunity
to curtail this new wave of activism. H Y Brown,
as he was known at the time, was particularly effective
at talking to young people.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Is this your son, Samuel Jackson.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Oh, I haven't seen him at months.
Speaker 9 (06:56):
Have a good day, gentlemen.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
It wasn't much to him anyway, and it looks like
he's in deep with a smack.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Probably won't hear anything from him.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Oh please, Lord, pick up the phone. Come on, come on, Frankie, Frankie,
is Sam there?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Where is he? Okay?
Speaker 6 (07:24):
Tell him, I'm going to be in Atlanta the day
after tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
You understand two days. To understand this, you have to
understand cointel Pro.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
The FBI started the program in nineteen fifty six. The
goal was to suffocate interest in the Communist Party of
the United States. The FBI used long form surveillance. The
operations would take months or even years. Co Intel Pro
lacked any due process and often went beyond any jurisdictional standards.
To understand cointel Pro from the FBI's perspective, spoke with
(08:00):
Frank for gluesy. Frank joined the FBI in nineteen eighty
seven and rose to the ranks, eventually being appointed to
the lofty role of Assistant Director for counter Intelligence in
twenty eleven by then Director Robert Muller. He's a regular
expert contributor on NBC and the author of two books,
The FBI Way Inside the Bureau's Code of Excellence and
(08:23):
Long Haul Hunting the Highway serial Killers. And as menm
pointed out, Frank is also a good looking man.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
First of all, though Hans isn't Frank right out of
central casting. You're a handsome fella. I'm just saying like this,
if I was casting, you know, we're filmmakers, I would
cast you as the FBI guy.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Let me tell you, you'd be in the big office, Frank.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Lighting and makeup, lighting and mega. So what was co
intel pro It stands it's an acronym. It's a code
word that stands for counterintelligence program. That got my attention
because I was the head of counter Intelligen just at
the end of my career. It was a secret program
to counter all of this so called sedition, instability, protest movement,
(09:11):
even the violent, especially the violent side of things. And
what did it consist of? Undercover agents, which, by the way,
the FBI sucked at in the sixties and early seventies.
It was a new concept that guys, white guys in
suits and ties and wingtip shoes were somehow good at
going undercover in protest movements and developing sources on campus.
(09:37):
Not good.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Do you think there's anything in the history of the
FBI that had like a seed of this notion of
the politicization of the FBI, like certain communities being suspicious
of the FBI.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Oh for sure. Look, as they said during Jay Edgar
Hoover's reign, and I'll say rain in the FBI because
he was there for over forty years. They he used
to joke in Washington, if you've seen one FBI director,
you've seen them all because he was it.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
He was it.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
And what does that mean? When you've got that much power,
you can become politically powerful. And Hoover knew that, and
he knew that the secret of staying in power was
behind the scenes to gain political influence. And how did
he do that. He kept files on people, kept files
on members of Congress, and they feared him. People came
(10:29):
to fear Hoover in the black community, minority community. Generally,
when people wield power and rule by fear, you can
literally terrorize parts of the population. History repeats itself and
the lessons of the past are sometimes forgotten. If you're
an evidence based agency like the FBI is right, just
the facts, man, facts and evidence in law. The agency
(10:52):
has every opportunity to flush out the so called communist
threat to America, and you can't find it, or it's
far less than you. And that was the case, by
the way, for Hoover, and it was particularly the case
with MLK, who was viewed by Hoover as a threat.
And we can talk for hours about trying to get
inside Hoover's had whether this was largely race racially motivated.
(11:15):
I think that was a huge part of it. Whether
or not he truly had the goods on MLK being
too affiliated with communism, The records we have now available
to us today show that he couldn't prove it. The
evidence was not there. Did MLK have associates who were
present or former Communist Party members? Yes, he had one
(11:37):
particularly close associate who was a former Communist member that
sent Hoover into orbit and was used to justify all
other means. You know, the phrase by any means necessary,
We align closely with Malcolm X in some of his species.
By Eddie means necessary, Well, guess what, Jaeger Hoover also
(11:58):
adopted that, and it did it in a largely unlawful way,
there's a great scene and this is like in FBI data.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
There's a great scene in Malcolm X where this the
night before Malcolm is killed and these two FBI agents
are listening to him talk and he's just sitting in
his hotel calling his wife.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Ask them why they had new concre Do you want
some furniture?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Do you want some cars? We have?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
What if we have? Meanwhile?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
King was you know, he like he liked the ladies, right,
And these FBI guys are listening and he says to
one guy, compared to King, this guy's a monk.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Right, he didn't do anything right.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
He was He was boring. He offered none of the
salacious details and life that doctor King did. So in
some ways he was a disappointment in terms of what
they could get on him. You know, the FBI considered
Malcolm XX a massive threat. His file was open in
nineteen fifty six when the Stars characterized Nation of Islam.
(13:02):
As his profile grew nationally, so did his surveillance. His
file would include more than thirty six hundred pays of information.
They would either follow him overseas. The extent of the
surveillance as far beyond would have documented or published. The
scope of this and the relation to his assassination may
never be uncovered.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Kennedy was briefed by Hoover on what he was doing
with Martin Luther King. Richard Nixon had been briefed on
what the plan was for the Black Panthers. You know,
we can't pretend that this was all about a rogue
FBI director.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
It was not.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
It was an administration that was held bent on keeping
people quiet.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
That's amazing because I feel like when I was in college,
I would hear people talk about Hotel pro and it
sounded like a conspiracy theory against the government. Like it
sounded like that's what you know, your high uncle would.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Say, yeah, or some he had a barbershop or something.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Or someone had a barbershop. And it wasn't until much
later that I realized that co Intel Probe was real
in it and it actually existed. And I always feel like,
even even doing this podcast, and some of the older
black folks are a little bit hesitant to even to
just fully talk because there's there seems to be this
(14:21):
still this through line of the poyancy and paranoia about
this program.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yeah, a lot of good came out of the exposure
of this program in terms of setting out attorney general guidelines,
there was a huge congressional inquiry called the Church Committee.
Because the congress members started it was Frank Church, and
they were blown away. They they thought, you know, from
the media reporting, they thought they had pretty much the
four corners of the co intel program figured out. And
(14:50):
then here here comes this parade of witnesses that starts
talking about illegal wire taps, breaking into people's homes without warrants,
planting evidence, take King evidence, bugging phones, planting microphones. And
they were like, you had got to be kidding me.
So and by the way, this this certainly extended to
(15:11):
to Martin Luther King personally in terms of bugging him
without without legal process.
Speaker 7 (15:18):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
And they were blown away. And so a lot of
guidelines and laws and rules came into place. And now
I truly fear and least by the way we're drilled
into our heads, uh in the FBI. I mean, the
notion that some supervisor would tell you to do an
illegal wiretap or something. You know, it just simply isn't
going to happen. But I have to tell you we
(15:40):
may have come full circle because this this concept of
you know, going after your your political enemies, going after
perceived threats, I think is taking on a new life.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
He is more from our conversation with Frank Faguzzi, former
de he director of the FBI.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
So Malcolm and Dice Furst and not the king assassinated
in that period in the early seventies, what were some
of the biggest concerns for the FBI.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
The biggest concern while Hoover was nearing the end and
even after his demise, was we're going to get caught
at this. We were in trouble. And when does Hoover
when is his raigning nine seventy two he poss I believe.
And now people are panicked at FBI headquarters and even
in certain field offices because they know there's there's accountability coming.
(16:36):
And in fact, there were moves to indict even with
regard to a Watergate cover up. L Patrick Gray, who
had been named acting FBI director after Hoover, he was
they were moving him toward indictment with all these what
they call black bag jobs, that's what they were called,
where you would go into someone's home without a warrant
(16:59):
and do a search, planting mics or taking evidence or
planting evidence. This stuff was illegal and in many cases,
and they were afraid they were going to prison, and
there was a movement afoot to actually put FBI executives
in prison. So that was their first concern, getting caught
and then covering it up, and then getting caught about
the cover up, and then you know, there was much
(17:22):
discussion about how to whether or not to destroy files,
particularly about MLK. So, for example, Hoover's famous secretary had
control of a safety that had what were called the
obscene files or yeah, I think they were known as
the obscene files, and they included files on congressmen and
(17:45):
it's about seventeen congressmen allegedly and MLK. And these included
wire taps or bugs placed in his hotel rooms when
he traveled. He traveled a lot, and they, yeah, they
allegedly can tained evidence of extramarital affairs the WIRESAFS led
to a last ditch effort. And this is how we
(18:07):
need to perceive this. By the way, you have the
premier law enforcement agency in the country. They have tried
every which way to flesh out this communist threat with
around MLK and the Black movement. They've been unsuccessful. I
mean even to the point where there's there's a memo
I've seen from the head of the San Francisco Field
(18:28):
office regarding the Black Panthers. Hoover had put out the word,
we've got to smash the Black Panthers. They got to go,
and he again he saw them as a threat. And
the head of the San Francisco says, Boss, We've taken
a hard look at this, and the worst thing we've
caught the panthers doing here in our city is feeding
breakfast to inner city kits. That's what we've got. And
(18:48):
he was pissed by that response. And by the way,
when did the real emphasis in the FBI of going
after King really kick in? He had his eye have
I have a dream speech on the National Mall.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
I have a dream.
Speaker 10 (19:05):
That one day.
Speaker 11 (19:08):
This nation will rise up, live out the true meaning
of its creeds. We hold these choos to be self evident,
that all men are created.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
This nineteen sixty three, sixty three thank you. That is
when literally William Sullivan, who was that then the deputy
director of the FBI, says to Hoover, that's enough. This
guy has too much power and influence, and oh yeah,
he's black. We've got to pull out the stops. That
(19:44):
really got the FBI's attention was that I have a
dream speech that he could pour people into the National Mall.
So then the excerpt of the of the Bug transcript
doesn't work. So they decide they're going to write a letter,
and by all accounts it's trafted by this guy, William
Sullivan FBI. A course, there's no way in terms of
way the FBI works, that that kind of letter would
(20:05):
be drafted and sent without Jay Garhoover's approval. Just there's
just no way. So it's sent and essentially, and I paraphrase,
you are reprehensible, Immral. We're going to expose you and
your your deviance and you know something like the best
(20:26):
you know, the best solution for you is to go.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Here are some direct quotes from that letter.
Speaker 8 (20:32):
In view of your low grade abnormal personal behavior. I
will not dignify your name with either a mister or
a reverend or a doctor, and your last name calls
to mind only the type of king such as King
Henry the eighth and his countless acts of adultery and
a moral conduct lower than that of a beast king.
(20:54):
Look into your heart. You know you are a complete
fraud and a great liability to all of us. Negro
white people in this country have enough frauds of their own,
but I am sure that they don't have one at
this time that is anywhere near your equal. You are
no clergyman, and you know it. I repeat, you are
a colossal fraud, and an evil, vicious one at that.
(21:16):
You cannot believe in God and act as you do.
Clearly you don't believe in any personal moral principles. King,
Like all frauds, your end is approaching. Your honorary degrees,
your nobel prize, what a grim farce, and other rewards
will not save you. King, I repeat, you are done.
No person can overcome facts, not even a fraud like yourself.
(21:40):
Lend your sexually psychotic ear to the enclosure. It is
all there on the record, your sexual orgies. Listen to yourself,
you filthy, abnormal animal. You are all the record. You
have been on the record, all your adulterous acts, your
sexual orgies, extending far into the past. This one is
but a tiny sample. The American public. The church organizations
(22:01):
that have been helping Protestant, Catholic and Jews will know
you for what you are, an evil, abnormal beast.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
You are done, King.
Speaker 8 (22:10):
There is only one thing left.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
For you to do.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
You know what it is.
Speaker 8 (22:14):
You have just thirty four days in which to do this.
This exact number has been selected for a specific reason.
It has definite practical significance.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
You are done.
Speaker 8 (22:25):
There is but one way out for you. You better
take it before your filthy, abnormal, fraudulent self is bare
to the nation, and the implication.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Cleary that it's time to commit suicide. That's about one
of the more horrific things I think in FBI history,
quite honestly.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
In addition to this letter, the FBI sent audio tapes
to doctor King and his wife Coretta. This will literally
be known as the blackmail package. The direct undertone of
the letter seems to suggest that doctor King should kill
himself before receiving the historic Mobil Peace Prize. Pro wanted
to destroy personal relationships and family. This was a critical
(23:05):
tactic in the process.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Do you think that with the intelligence gathering that the
FBI had during this time period, when we think about
leaders like Medigar, Evers, King, Malcolm, do you think the
FBI is aware of real threats to those leaders?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
So I'll caveat this first by saying I don't have
direct documented evidence of this, but I'll then quickly go
into the reality of life in the FBI those days,
which was it was all about targeting these perceived threats
and as we said, developing sources literally that will point
(23:46):
you to how to how to assassinate a Black Panther leader,
getting in and bugging king suggestion he commits suicide. It's
inconceivable to believe that someone in the bureau was on
where that people could kill these targets, but it's conceivable
that the FBI was part and parcel of trying to
(24:08):
do it.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Paranoia was a key tactic for the FBI. Many informants
and victims of Conteil pro would be called hysterical by
friends and family about potential surveillance. This process was undoubtedly
critical in the assassination of Fred Hampton in December of
nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
The FBI, this has been proven in by many historians,
had a role in the murder of a Black Panther
leader in Chicago, and they did it through a source
development that was close to this Black Panther and a
special unit at the Chicago PD so the FBI didn't
(24:50):
want to get its hands dirty, but it developed this
source close to the panther. Then they turned it over
to this special unit as Chicago PD. When the source said, Hey,
our target is going to be here, asleep in this
apartment at this time, here comes the Chicago PD unit
and they they take him out, They shoot him.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Killed him in Cobood.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, that was Fred Hampton, right, Fred Hampton, And that
the chief concern was getting caught at.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
This This quote comes directly from FBI Director Jay Edgar Hoover.
We must avoid the rise of a messiah that would
unify and electrify the militant nationalist movement. Cointelpro was his brainchild,
and the blunt force and lack of civil liberties came
right from his playbook.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
The mental unrest was just as significant as a potential
imprisonment or even loss of life.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Sam Jackson's mother understood this, and when the FBI came
to her door in Tennessee, she got to Atlanta as
fast as she could.
Speaker 6 (25:56):
Mama, I don't know if all of this is necessary.
You have had the FBI knock on your door. Come on, mama,
let me ask you again. Have you ever had the
FBI knock on your door. No, no, well, you didn't
see what I saw. You didn't see how nice they were.
You didn't see how they were dressed, holding the little papers,
(26:17):
big folders filled with names, and one of them names
was yours.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Keep your head down and you come back what.
Speaker 8 (26:25):
I say the safe?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Oky?
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Okay? I love you, I love you too. Sam Jackson
has his own insights into the lengths the government went
to stop the movement beyond contel Pro in the sixties.
Speaker 10 (26:44):
The most drastic thing that happened in the summer sixty
nine months, all of a sudden, they took all the
marijuana and all the hallucinogens were taken out of Atlanta,
and the only drug you could buye was a heroin
only drug, you BOYE was heroin and we were drug users,
So we started using hero good planning, get people started
(27:05):
dying off, people started o daying, dying just became you know, useless,
worthless junkies.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Uh.
Speaker 10 (27:11):
And that was that was the most effective diffuser of
the revolution that they you know, came up with at worked.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Here's former Morehouse alum and civil rights activist James Early.
Speaker 9 (27:22):
I brought a context of this, Uh, that has no
direct relationship to the takeover, but it's again a contextual piece.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
So in that period, then heroin hits.
Speaker 12 (27:34):
So, you know, one of my running buddies, Morehouse, had
recruited several Puerto Ricans. You know, Morehouse won the national
swimming championship I think for two or three years, and
a small college swimming championship rig Berto Centron who died
of a heroin overdose just a few blocks from campus.
This was a time also around that campus of which
(27:55):
Morehouse was not ready for. And no, you know, most
colleges were not four.
Speaker 9 (28:00):
And I can remember three four occasions of you know,
we're looking for that weed.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
We would go to an apartment.
Speaker 12 (28:07):
There would be eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve guys, needles
in the arms.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Booting.
Speaker 13 (28:13):
Booting is you put the needle in and as the
heroine is almost exhausted me, you boot it back. You
pull the blood back so that you can draw out
as much of the heroin as you can. So this
was a contextual issue going on in society. The status
quo society. The assumptions, the presumptions of comportment and culture
(28:36):
and whatnot were in the process of dramatic sometimes turbulent change.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Sam would flee to Los Angeles and stay with an aunt.
He would pursue a new found passion for acting, a
passion that grew would assume to be wife with Tagya.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Sam was able to escape, but many Black Americans found
themselves caught in the web of co intel pro Welcome
back to the A building. Here's more from our conversation
with Frank fig Lucy. I heard a story about a
young woman who around the time, probably about a year
(29:13):
before Fred Hampton was assassinated, was a college student and
they were doing the freedom rides to go down south.
So they would they would train these college students and
they would do the freedom ride and they were they
were holding like these training sessions. The one that she
went to was at Oberlin in Ohio. So she goes
to Oberlin for the summer and when she gets to Oberlin,
(29:38):
her mother and her older sister were waiting for her
and they were like, you're not doing this, And she
was like, first of all, how did you find out?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
You know?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Da da da, And they said, the FBI came to
our house and told us that you were doing this
and that they couldn't protect you if you went down South,
and I hadn't heard a couple stories like that where
the FBI would reach out to the parents of students
to say, hey, they're in this activity and we can't
(30:08):
protect them, be careful, you know, and would enact influence
over the person through family members. Is that something that
that that rains true to you?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
So as a concept, absolutely, you know, does the FBI
do this kind of thing, Yes, of course, But let's
try to differentiate between doing it legitimately, like reaching out
to a family member and trying to prevent a crime,
or doing what we call a knock and talk. This
happens all the time. By the way, this didn't get
(30:42):
a lot of publicity, but just prior to the January
sixth insurrection at the US Capitol, the FBI, by by
most accounts that have been verified by not only the
media but my own sources, the FBI did a knock
and talk with about a dozen to twenty individuals, hardcore
(31:04):
people who already were predicated, meaning the FBI already had
a case open on them, and there had been some
inkling that they might go to the Capitol. On January sixth,
They did knock in talks and said something like we're
onto you, right, and you do this at great risk
because you're going to blow your case. You're telling the
guy we know you are, but we've got winds that
(31:27):
you may be thinking about doing bad things at the Capitol,
and we're telling you if you get on a plane, train,
or automobile and start heading that way, that could put
us over the edge to arrest you based off Well,
we have already. There's nothing wrong with that kind of
knock and talk. It happens all the time. But now
let's go to your scenario at Oberlin knock and talk
with a family to say, we don't like what your
(31:50):
daughter or niece is about to do, which is lawful
activity in aid of a civil rights activism. We don't
want to happen. That's a problem that's trying to shape
a national narrative that you know. I think it's way too,
way too off the off the shark. So what's your reaction.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
What was the reaction when you heard about this story
at Morehouse Number one?
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Glad somebody's addressing it, because I have extremely limited knowledge
of this. I even though by the way, my first office,
as I said, Atlanta, Georgia and the FBI certainly had
contact with Morehouse, have fellow FBI agents who went to Morehouse.
But I think there's there's an insight here. Is is
(32:38):
it possible that Morehouse is finally getting what what getting
a goal in place, which is we're going to seriously
educate our young people. We've got we've got this going
pretty damn well here, and we don't need any attention
from the government, the FBI. We're in the deep South, Atlanta, Georgia,
(33:02):
and let's kind of not rock this boat. And now
you have black, bright, black students going not so fast.
We don't have everything we want, and we're not going
to be as quiet as you may want us to be,
and we've got some demands ourselves. I think that that's
just from the outside looking in. I think that's fascinating.
(33:25):
I certainly didn't serve in the FBI in Atlanta till
like nineteen eighty seven, but you know, the concern still
that I can't emphasize this enough, and I put it
in my book. I go down there, it's eighty seven.
I'm from Connecticut. Do you know that I worked cross
(33:47):
burnings and clan rallies as an FBI agent in Atlanta Georgia. Yeah,
in the eighties, it was surreal. I'm on the streets
of downtown Atlanta trying to make sure that blacks aren't
attacking a clan rally, that the clan doesn't turn on
(34:09):
the black protest. And by the way, was it this
black protesters? Thank god? There were a lot of protesters
at this client rally in Atlanta. But we're like, are
we And I'm kind of like, what am I doing here?
Speaker 7 (34:21):
Am I?
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I know I'm doing this as a civil rights operation?
Whose civil rights am I protect? It was part of
the question. And then I'll never forget across burning like
I think it was Decab County outside of Atlanta, and
I'm like, this is another what is going on here?
So why do I mention that? And now go back
to this incident at Morehouse and imagine what the climate
(34:46):
is in Atlanta and the desire to not mess up
what is looking like a good thing Morehouse University and
here come these students going no, you know, no, we
got a press. The other takeaway I have is what's
going on now in college campuses, good and bad? And
(35:08):
this is obviously a hot sensitive topic, but all of
the protests on elite college universities with regard to the
Palestinian Israeli conflict, right, and people just flipping out our
government literally grabbing people with student visas, even green cards,
(35:32):
and saying we're taking away your student visa, we're taking
away your green card, and we're deporting you. In one
case because a young lady, a Tufts University student, had
the audacity to write an opinion piece in the school newspaper.
What so you know, it's so I can't. I'm always
(35:52):
looking at past and present and seeing the connections, and
right now we as a government, we're not accepting free
speech on college campus. Am I a fan of violence?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
No?
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Have I worked cases against Hamas, a proven terrorist organization.
Absolutely they are cold blooded evil. Have I seen any
evidence that the people who are who are being grabbed
by masked men on campus are Hamas?
Speaker 8 (36:24):
No?
Speaker 3 (36:25):
I have it.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
So I worry that we're you know, we're going back.
We're going back when you're under stress. Here's where things
go south in the bureau and same for all human nature.
Under Hoover's time, you've got this kind of communist scare.
Bombs are going off, riots in the street. You know,
we're not thrilled with black people getting influence and power.
(36:47):
We're all scared, okay, And what happens by any means necessary,
you try to quash that threat. What happens in the
US after nine to eleven? And I was I was
the number two person in FBI Miami after the terror
attacks of nine to eleven unprecedented? Right, And do we
start to see things going south? Are people trying to
(37:09):
develop sources inside mosques? Yes, NYPD all by themselves had
a covert program to spy inside mosques. The Patriot Act
is passed, and some people take that as license to
grab up everybody's phone communications. All kinds of weird things
(37:31):
are happening. How about Hey, how about torture? How about waterboarding?
How about the torture to the point where we can't
even use what you just gave us in court, We've
got to go military tribunal because it's useless to us. Yeah. So,
when a society is under stress, things can go bad.
(37:52):
How do you try to put guardrails up? You have
the kinds of guardrails that I lived with in my
twenty five year experience you and you follow them relentlessly,
and you punish those who go outside those guidelines.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Frank, I can't let you. I can't let you talk
to my kid, because if you talk to my kid,
you might convince him to become an FBI convincing.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Tell me a good job, darn it.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
I tell you what.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
If it was a year ago, I might have talked
him into it. I don't. I don't know what to
tell young people today.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
Frank, don't I let you. I let you near My
son is twenty two. I let you near my kid.
Next thing I know, he's got an application in. He's
like that, I'm going on to I live in d C.
So it's just down the road. Training is down down
the road. Like the way you talk about it. Man,
you had me halfway looking like am I little too?
Speaker 1 (38:39):
All? Like we'll sign you up, We'll sign you up.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
In November of twenty twenty four, the surviving family of
Malcolm X sued the FBI, the CIA, and the NYPD
for the involvement in his assassination. The trial is still pending.
These ideas were at the heart of the at Moorhouse.
These students wanted their education to mean something in a
world that could fall apart at any moment. The state
(39:09):
could take down icons.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
In this context, the sacrifice of the students at Morehouse
if not only reasonable, but a necessary progression of the
civil rights movement.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
The educational landscape would take a major shift in the
next twenty years. The next wave of martyrs would continue
the history of protecting the black home and the black family.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
The Reagan era would introduce radical changes to policing and
drug policy. This would go on to be exacerbated by
the nineteen ninety four Crime Bill that would place an
entire generation of black and brown people behind bars for
non violent crimes.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
In twenty twenty five, our republic is in scorn. We
must revisit the heroes of our past to defeat the
cowards of our future. Next time, on the A Building,
the lock in the idea just came from two people,
myself and another brother named Spurge and Smith.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Certainly think there's a risk in protesting Bay, specifically because
the world was burning.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
The risk hasn't been this high a long time. They
came out of it. I'm knocking, huh, class, I demand
to be released, and I said, I demand as you
get back in now. The A Building is produced by
Imagine Audio for iHeart Podcasts. It is written and hosted
by me, Hans Charles and my co host menelike La Mumba.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
It is executive produced by Karl Welker and Nathan Kloke,
me Medelich, Wlamomba and Hans Charles.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Executive producers at iHeart Podcasts ar Katrina Norville and Nikki
Torre Marketing lead is David Wasserman.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
It is produced, directed, and edited by Timothy Fernarra with
producer John Asanti. Sound design and music by Alloy Tracks.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
And special thanks to April Ryan, Doctor, Eliot Davis, Kim
vci Ada, Bobby Know and James Early. If you enjoyed
this episode, be sure to rate and review the A
Building on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts
Under Hoover's time, You've got this kind of communist scare.
Bombs are going off, riots in the street. By any
means necessary, you try to quash that threat. What's going
on now in college campuses? As a government, we're not
accepting free speech? Am I a fan of violence?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
No?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Have I worked cases against Hamas a proven terrorist organization? Absolutely?
They are cold blooded evil. Have I seen any evidence
that the people who are being grabbed by masked men
on campus are Hamas? No? I haven't, so. I worry
that we're you know, we're going back. We're going back.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
The A building Episode seven, co Intel.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Pro I want to smoke. Nah, I quit a year ago.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
You know those things supposedly killed Edward R.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Morrow.
Speaker 5 (01:14):
Yeah, yeah, he did a bunch of stories about cigarettes
and cancer.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
He died because he.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Was a socialist. Okay, Dan, where the hell are we going?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
The work of an FBI agent is surprisingly bureaucratic. Files, names, dates,
phone numbers, stakeouts. The two agents you just heard are
delivering warnings, warnings to families. Scenarios like the scenes in
this episode were commonplace. No one is knocking talks. They
were a method of intimidation within the FBI in the
(01:48):
era of Gagar Hoover. He's quoted as saying, it's always
practical to go after the family. That's where it can
hurt the most.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
Hello, can I help you?
Speaker 7 (02:02):
Well?
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Hello, my name is and this is my partner. These
are my credentials. We're sorry to bother you. How are
you this morning?
Speaker 3 (02:12):
You're with who?
Speaker 1 (02:13):
The Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
We have some news about your son.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
First of all, is this your son?
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Let's show her the.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Picture any day now, I know, I know?
Speaker 5 (02:26):
Hold it, damn it, Walter Johnson?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
This him?
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
What is this? Do you know who h.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
Rap Brown is? Ma'am? Walter has been spending a lot
of time at his shop in Atlanta.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I've seen the name in the paper.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
Bad stuff, missus Johnson. These are real radical negroes, the
worst kind. And we know you don't want this for Walter.
You're a god fearing woman, a Christian woman, a school teacher.
You said, Walter to college after losing your husband in Korea?
And then how does he pay you back by getting
kicked out of Moorhouse?
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Behind this Milton crop?
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Is that what you want for him?
Speaker 8 (03:03):
Is he in trouble?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
No?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Not yet.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
We just wanted to let you know they get the
hell off my porch. Jesus Christ.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
You'd think they'd be more grateful, and.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
We just delivered the news.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
They can do with what they please. Well, maybe she
wants to see Walter through plateglass.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
For twenty years.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
In the early sixties, a new and powerful voice emerged
and rose quickly in the movement towards racial equality. H
rapped around, had a big voice, and it was getting bigger,
and the FBI took notice.
Speaker 7 (03:40):
Lyndon Johnson, you can always raise an argument about law
and order because he never talks about justice.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
But black people.
Speaker 7 (03:48):
Fall for that same argument, and they go around talking
about lawbreakers. We did not make the laws in this country.
We'll neither, Marley not legally confined to those laws, those
laws that keep them up keep us.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
You got to begin to understand.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
That a new wave of black social justice spread nationwire
like a firestorm. Leaders like Kaimei terray byb Seal, Angela Davis,
Huey P Newton, and Tupac's mother of Phoenie.
Speaker 7 (04:14):
Chicour violence is a part of America's culture. It as American,
as Jerry Pye American taught the.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Black people to be violent.
Speaker 7 (04:23):
We will use that violin to be it ourselves of oppression.
If necessary, we will be freed by any means necessary.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Who is this man? And why did the FBI care
so much? H?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Rap Brown born Hubert Gerald Brown on October fourth, nineteen
forty three, in Baton, Rouge, Louisiana, emerged as a significant
figure in the American civil rights movement during the nineteen sixties.
His father, Eddie Charles Senior, worked for ESL Oil, and
his mother, Thelma Warren Brown, was a domestic worker and
elementary school teacher. From an early age, Brown showcased exceptional
(04:59):
verbal skills, earning the nickname Rap.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Brown's activism began in his teenage years, when he moved
to Washington, d c. And joined the Non Volid Action
Group inag a local affiliate of the Student Non Violent
Coordinating Committee SNICK. By nineteen sixty seven, browse seceated Stokely
Carmichael as a national chairman of SNICK. As chairman, Brown
(05:22):
was known for his fireI rhetorican stock advocacy for black power.
His speeches often attracted national attention and controversy.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
In nineteen sixty seven, following a speech in Cambridge, Maryland,
Brown was wounded by gunfire from local police officers. Shortly
after he left the state, a local school building burned down,
leading to accusations against Brown for inciting rights, though the
origins of the fire were disputed.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Brown's legal challenges continued into nineteen seventy when two SNICK
members died in a car explosion in Maryland under unclear circumstances.
Brown went into hiding for eighteen months, appearing on the
FBI's ten most wanted lists before being arrested in New York.
During his imprisonment, he can ready to Islam and adopted
(06:10):
the name Jamil Abdullah l Aman.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Look here it is right here.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Oh I see it.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
No, I fucking hate Tennessee. Yeah, pulling over there.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
It's amazing.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
It works so hard to make their houses look normal.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
Hello, my name is This is my partner. These are
my credentials. We're sorry to bother you, ma'am. How are
you this morning?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
For the FBI, the expulsions at Morehouse were an opportunity
to curtail this new wave of activism. H Y Brown,
as he was known at the time, was particularly effective
at talking to young people.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Is this your son, Samuel Jackson.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Oh, I haven't seen him at months.
Speaker 9 (06:56):
Have a good day, gentlemen.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
It wasn't much to him anyway, and it looks like
he's in deep with a smack.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Probably won't hear anything from him.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Oh please, Lord, pick up the phone. Come on, come on, Frankie, Frankie,
is Sam there?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Where is he? Okay?
Speaker 6 (07:24):
Tell him, I'm going to be in Atlanta the day
after tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
You understand two days. To understand this, you have to
understand cointel Pro.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
The FBI started the program in nineteen fifty six. The
goal was to suffocate interest in the Communist Party of
the United States. The FBI used long form surveillance. The
operations would take months or even years. Co Intel Pro
lacked any due process and often went beyond any jurisdictional standards.
To understand cointel Pro from the FBI's perspective, spoke with
(08:00):
Frank for gluesy. Frank joined the FBI in nineteen eighty
seven and rose to the ranks, eventually being appointed to
the lofty role of Assistant Director for counter Intelligence in
twenty eleven by then Director Robert Muller. He's a regular
expert contributor on NBC and the author of two books,
The FBI Way Inside the Bureau's Code of Excellence and
(08:23):
Long Haul Hunting the Highway serial Killers. And as menm
pointed out, Frank is also a good looking man.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
First of all, though Hans isn't Frank right out of
central casting. You're a handsome fella. I'm just saying like this,
if I was casting, you know, we're filmmakers, I would
cast you as the FBI guy.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Let me tell you, you'd be in the big office, Frank.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Lighting and makeup, lighting and mega. So what was co
intel pro It stands it's an acronym. It's a code
word that stands for counterintelligence program. That got my attention
because I was the head of counter Intelligen just at
the end of my career. It was a secret program
to counter all of this so called sedition, instability, protest movement,
(09:11):
even the violent, especially the violent side of things. And
what did it consist of? Undercover agents, which, by the way,
the FBI sucked at in the sixties and early seventies.
It was a new concept that guys, white guys in
suits and ties and wingtip shoes were somehow good at
going undercover in protest movements and developing sources on campus.
(09:37):
Not good.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Do you think there's anything in the history of the
FBI that had like a seed of this notion of
the politicization of the FBI, like certain communities being suspicious
of the FBI.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Oh for sure. Look, as they said during Jay Edgar
Hoover's reign, and I'll say rain in the FBI because
he was there for over forty years. They he used
to joke in Washington, if you've seen one FBI director,
you've seen them all because he was it.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
He was it.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
And what does that mean? When you've got that much power,
you can become politically powerful. And Hoover knew that, and
he knew that the secret of staying in power was
behind the scenes to gain political influence. And how did
he do that. He kept files on people, kept files
on members of Congress, and they feared him. People came
(10:29):
to fear Hoover in the black community, minority community. Generally,
when people wield power and rule by fear, you can
literally terrorize parts of the population. History repeats itself and
the lessons of the past are sometimes forgotten. If you're
an evidence based agency like the FBI is right, just
the facts, man, facts and evidence in law. The agency
(10:52):
has every opportunity to flush out the so called communist
threat to America, and you can't find it, or it's
far less than you. And that was the case, by
the way, for Hoover, and it was particularly the case
with MLK, who was viewed by Hoover as a threat.
And we can talk for hours about trying to get
inside Hoover's had whether this was largely race racially motivated.
(11:15):
I think that was a huge part of it. Whether
or not he truly had the goods on MLK being
too affiliated with communism, The records we have now available
to us today show that he couldn't prove it. The
evidence was not there. Did MLK have associates who were
present or former Communist Party members? Yes, he had one
(11:37):
particularly close associate who was a former Communist member that
sent Hoover into orbit and was used to justify all
other means. You know, the phrase by any means necessary,
We align closely with Malcolm X in some of his species.
By Eddie means necessary, Well, guess what, Jaeger Hoover also
(11:58):
adopted that, and it did it in a largely unlawful way,
there's a great scene and this is like in FBI data.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
There's a great scene in Malcolm X where this the
night before Malcolm is killed and these two FBI agents
are listening to him talk and he's just sitting in
his hotel calling his wife.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Ask them why they had new concre Do you want
some furniture?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Do you want some cars? We have?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
What if we have? Meanwhile?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
King was you know, he like he liked the ladies, right,
And these FBI guys are listening and he says to
one guy, compared to King, this guy's a monk.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Right, he didn't do anything right.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
He was He was boring. He offered none of the
salacious details and life that doctor King did. So in
some ways he was a disappointment in terms of what
they could get on him. You know, the FBI considered
Malcolm XX a massive threat. His file was open in
nineteen fifty six when the Stars characterized Nation of Islam.
(13:02):
As his profile grew nationally, so did his surveillance. His
file would include more than thirty six hundred pays of information.
They would either follow him overseas. The extent of the
surveillance as far beyond would have documented or published. The
scope of this and the relation to his assassination may
never be uncovered.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Kennedy was briefed by Hoover on what he was doing
with Martin Luther King. Richard Nixon had been briefed on
what the plan was for the Black Panthers. You know,
we can't pretend that this was all about a rogue
FBI director.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
It was not.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
It was an administration that was held bent on keeping
people quiet.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
That's amazing because I feel like when I was in college,
I would hear people talk about Hotel pro and it
sounded like a conspiracy theory against the government. Like it
sounded like that's what you know, your high uncle would.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Say, yeah, or some he had a barbershop or something.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Or someone had a barbershop. And it wasn't until much
later that I realized that co Intel Probe was real
in it and it actually existed. And I always feel like,
even even doing this podcast, and some of the older
black folks are a little bit hesitant to even to
just fully talk because there's there seems to be this
(14:21):
still this through line of the poyancy and paranoia about
this program.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yeah, a lot of good came out of the exposure
of this program in terms of setting out attorney general guidelines,
there was a huge congressional inquiry called the Church Committee.
Because the congress members started it was Frank Church, and
they were blown away. They they thought, you know, from
the media reporting, they thought they had pretty much the
four corners of the co intel program figured out. And
(14:50):
then here here comes this parade of witnesses that starts
talking about illegal wire taps, breaking into people's homes without warrants,
planting evidence, take King evidence, bugging phones, planting microphones. And
they were like, you had got to be kidding me.
So and by the way, this this certainly extended to
(15:11):
to Martin Luther King personally in terms of bugging him
without without legal process.
Speaker 7 (15:18):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
And they were blown away. And so a lot of
guidelines and laws and rules came into place. And now
I truly fear and least by the way we're drilled
into our heads, uh in the FBI. I mean, the
notion that some supervisor would tell you to do an
illegal wiretap or something. You know, it just simply isn't
going to happen. But I have to tell you we
(15:40):
may have come full circle because this this concept of
you know, going after your your political enemies, going after
perceived threats, I think is taking on a new life.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
He is more from our conversation with Frank Faguzzi, former
de he director of the FBI.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
So Malcolm and Dice Furst and not the king assassinated
in that period in the early seventies, what were some
of the biggest concerns for the FBI.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
The biggest concern while Hoover was nearing the end and
even after his demise, was we're going to get caught
at this. We were in trouble. And when does Hoover
when is his raigning nine seventy two he poss I believe.
And now people are panicked at FBI headquarters and even
in certain field offices because they know there's there's accountability coming.
(16:36):
And in fact, there were moves to indict even with
regard to a Watergate cover up. L Patrick Gray, who
had been named acting FBI director after Hoover, he was
they were moving him toward indictment with all these what
they call black bag jobs, that's what they were called,
where you would go into someone's home without a warrant
(16:59):
and do a search, planting mics or taking evidence or
planting evidence. This stuff was illegal and in many cases,
and they were afraid they were going to prison, and
there was a movement afoot to actually put FBI executives
in prison. So that was their first concern, getting caught
and then covering it up, and then getting caught about
the cover up, and then you know, there was much
(17:22):
discussion about how to whether or not to destroy files,
particularly about MLK. So, for example, Hoover's famous secretary had
control of a safety that had what were called the
obscene files or yeah, I think they were known as
the obscene files, and they included files on congressmen and
(17:45):
it's about seventeen congressmen allegedly and MLK. And these included
wire taps or bugs placed in his hotel rooms when
he traveled. He traveled a lot, and they, yeah, they
allegedly can tained evidence of extramarital affairs the WIRESAFS led
to a last ditch effort. And this is how we
(18:07):
need to perceive this. By the way, you have the
premier law enforcement agency in the country. They have tried
every which way to flesh out this communist threat with
around MLK and the Black movement. They've been unsuccessful. I
mean even to the point where there's there's a memo
I've seen from the head of the San Francisco Field
(18:28):
office regarding the Black Panthers. Hoover had put out the word,
we've got to smash the Black Panthers. They got to go,
and he again he saw them as a threat. And
the head of the San Francisco says, Boss, We've taken
a hard look at this, and the worst thing we've
caught the panthers doing here in our city is feeding
breakfast to inner city kits. That's what we've got. And
(18:48):
he was pissed by that response. And by the way,
when did the real emphasis in the FBI of going
after King really kick in? He had his eye have
I have a dream speech on the National Mall.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
I have a dream.
Speaker 10 (19:05):
That one day.
Speaker 11 (19:08):
This nation will rise up, live out the true meaning
of its creeds. We hold these choos to be self evident,
that all men are created.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
This nineteen sixty three, sixty three thank you. That is
when literally William Sullivan, who was that then the deputy
director of the FBI, says to Hoover, that's enough. This
guy has too much power and influence, and oh yeah,
he's black. We've got to pull out the stops. That
(19:44):
really got the FBI's attention was that I have a
dream speech that he could pour people into the National Mall.
So then the excerpt of the of the Bug transcript
doesn't work. So they decide they're going to write a letter,
and by all accounts it's trafted by this guy, William
Sullivan FBI. A course, there's no way in terms of
way the FBI works, that that kind of letter would
(20:05):
be drafted and sent without Jay Garhoover's approval. Just there's
just no way. So it's sent and essentially, and I paraphrase,
you are reprehensible, Immral. We're going to expose you and
your your deviance and you know something like the best
(20:26):
you know, the best solution for you is to go.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Here are some direct quotes from that letter.
Speaker 8 (20:32):
In view of your low grade abnormal personal behavior. I
will not dignify your name with either a mister or
a reverend or a doctor, and your last name calls
to mind only the type of king such as King
Henry the eighth and his countless acts of adultery and
a moral conduct lower than that of a beast king.
(20:54):
Look into your heart. You know you are a complete
fraud and a great liability to all of us. Negro
white people in this country have enough frauds of their own,
but I am sure that they don't have one at
this time that is anywhere near your equal. You are
no clergyman, and you know it. I repeat, you are
a colossal fraud, and an evil, vicious one at that.
(21:16):
You cannot believe in God and act as you do.
Clearly you don't believe in any personal moral principles. King,
Like all frauds, your end is approaching. Your honorary degrees,
your nobel prize, what a grim farce, and other rewards
will not save you. King, I repeat, you are done.
No person can overcome facts, not even a fraud like yourself.
(21:40):
Lend your sexually psychotic ear to the enclosure. It is
all there on the record, your sexual orgies. Listen to yourself,
you filthy, abnormal animal. You are all the record. You
have been on the record, all your adulterous acts, your
sexual orgies, extending far into the past. This one is
but a tiny sample. The American public. The church organizations
(22:01):
that have been helping Protestant, Catholic and Jews will know
you for what you are, an evil, abnormal beast.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
You are done, King.
Speaker 8 (22:10):
There is only one thing left.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
For you to do.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
You know what it is.
Speaker 8 (22:14):
You have just thirty four days in which to do this.
This exact number has been selected for a specific reason.
It has definite practical significance.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
You are done.
Speaker 8 (22:25):
There is but one way out for you. You better
take it before your filthy, abnormal, fraudulent self is bare
to the nation, and the implication.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Cleary that it's time to commit suicide. That's about one
of the more horrific things I think in FBI history,
quite honestly.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
In addition to this letter, the FBI sent audio tapes
to doctor King and his wife Coretta. This will literally
be known as the blackmail package. The direct undertone of
the letter seems to suggest that doctor King should kill
himself before receiving the historic Mobil Peace Prize. Pro wanted
to destroy personal relationships and family. This was a critical
(23:05):
tactic in the process.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Do you think that with the intelligence gathering that the
FBI had during this time period, when we think about
leaders like Medigar, Evers, King, Malcolm, do you think the
FBI is aware of real threats to those leaders?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
So I'll caveat this first by saying I don't have
direct documented evidence of this, but I'll then quickly go
into the reality of life in the FBI those days,
which was it was all about targeting these perceived threats
and as we said, developing sources literally that will point
(23:46):
you to how to how to assassinate a Black Panther leader,
getting in and bugging king suggestion he commits suicide. It's
inconceivable to believe that someone in the bureau was on
where that people could kill these targets, but it's conceivable
that the FBI was part and parcel of trying to
(24:08):
do it.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Paranoia was a key tactic for the FBI. Many informants
and victims of Conteil pro would be called hysterical by
friends and family about potential surveillance. This process was undoubtedly
critical in the assassination of Fred Hampton in December of
nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
The FBI, this has been proven in by many historians,
had a role in the murder of a Black Panther
leader in Chicago, and they did it through a source
development that was close to this Black Panther and a
special unit at the Chicago PD so the FBI didn't
(24:50):
want to get its hands dirty, but it developed this
source close to the panther. Then they turned it over
to this special unit as Chicago PD. When the source said, Hey,
our target is going to be here, asleep in this
apartment at this time, here comes the Chicago PD unit
and they they take him out, They shoot him.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Killed him in Cobood.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, that was Fred Hampton, right, Fred Hampton, And that
the chief concern was getting caught at.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
This This quote comes directly from FBI Director Jay Edgar Hoover.
We must avoid the rise of a messiah that would
unify and electrify the militant nationalist movement. Cointelpro was his brainchild,
and the blunt force and lack of civil liberties came
right from his playbook.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
The mental unrest was just as significant as a potential
imprisonment or even loss of life.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Sam Jackson's mother understood this, and when the FBI came
to her door in Tennessee, she got to Atlanta as
fast as she could.
Speaker 6 (25:56):
Mama, I don't know if all of this is necessary.
You have had the FBI knock on your door. Come on, mama,
let me ask you again. Have you ever had the
FBI knock on your door. No, no, well, you didn't
see what I saw. You didn't see how nice they were.
You didn't see how they were dressed, holding the little papers,
(26:17):
big folders filled with names, and one of them names
was yours.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Keep your head down and you come back what.
Speaker 8 (26:25):
I say the safe?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Oky?
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Okay? I love you, I love you too. Sam Jackson
has his own insights into the lengths the government went
to stop the movement beyond contel Pro in the sixties.
Speaker 10 (26:44):
The most drastic thing that happened in the summer sixty
nine months, all of a sudden, they took all the
marijuana and all the hallucinogens were taken out of Atlanta,
and the only drug you could buye was a heroin
only drug, you BOYE was heroin and we were drug users,
So we started using hero good planning, get people started
(27:05):
dying off, people started o daying, dying just became you know, useless,
worthless junkies.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Uh.
Speaker 10 (27:11):
And that was that was the most effective diffuser of
the revolution that they you know, came up with at worked.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Here's former Morehouse alum and civil rights activist James Early.
Speaker 9 (27:22):
I brought a context of this, Uh, that has no
direct relationship to the takeover, but it's again a contextual piece.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
So in that period, then heroin hits.
Speaker 12 (27:34):
So, you know, one of my running buddies, Morehouse, had
recruited several Puerto Ricans. You know, Morehouse won the national
swimming championship I think for two or three years, and
a small college swimming championship rig Berto Centron who died
of a heroin overdose just a few blocks from campus.
This was a time also around that campus of which
(27:55):
Morehouse was not ready for. And no, you know, most
colleges were not four.
Speaker 9 (28:00):
And I can remember three four occasions of you know,
we're looking for that weed.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
We would go to an apartment.
Speaker 12 (28:07):
There would be eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve guys, needles
in the arms.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Booting.
Speaker 13 (28:13):
Booting is you put the needle in and as the
heroine is almost exhausted me, you boot it back. You
pull the blood back so that you can draw out
as much of the heroin as you can. So this
was a contextual issue going on in society. The status
quo society. The assumptions, the presumptions of comportment and culture
(28:36):
and whatnot were in the process of dramatic sometimes turbulent change.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Sam would flee to Los Angeles and stay with an aunt.
He would pursue a new found passion for acting, a
passion that grew would assume to be wife with Tagya.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Sam was able to escape, but many Black Americans found
themselves caught in the web of co intel pro Welcome
back to the A building. Here's more from our conversation
with Frank fig Lucy. I heard a story about a
young woman who around the time, probably about a year
(29:13):
before Fred Hampton was assassinated, was a college student and
they were doing the freedom rides to go down south.
So they would they would train these college students and
they would do the freedom ride and they were they
were holding like these training sessions. The one that she
went to was at Oberlin in Ohio. So she goes
to Oberlin for the summer and when she gets to Oberlin,
(29:38):
her mother and her older sister were waiting for her
and they were like, you're not doing this, And she
was like, first of all, how did you find out?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
You know?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Da da da, And they said, the FBI came to
our house and told us that you were doing this
and that they couldn't protect you if you went down South,
and I hadn't heard a couple stories like that where
the FBI would reach out to the parents of students
to say, hey, they're in this activity and we can't
(30:08):
protect them, be careful, you know, and would enact influence
over the person through family members. Is that something that
that that rains true to you?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
So as a concept, absolutely, you know, does the FBI
do this kind of thing, Yes, of course, But let's
try to differentiate between doing it legitimately, like reaching out
to a family member and trying to prevent a crime,
or doing what we call a knock and talk. This
happens all the time. By the way, this didn't get
(30:42):
a lot of publicity, but just prior to the January
sixth insurrection at the US Capitol, the FBI, by by
most accounts that have been verified by not only the
media but my own sources, the FBI did a knock
and talk with about a dozen to twenty individuals, hardcore
(31:04):
people who already were predicated, meaning the FBI already had
a case open on them, and there had been some
inkling that they might go to the Capitol. On January sixth,
They did knock in talks and said something like we're
onto you, right, and you do this at great risk
because you're going to blow your case. You're telling the
guy we know you are, but we've got winds that
(31:27):
you may be thinking about doing bad things at the Capitol,
and we're telling you if you get on a plane, train,
or automobile and start heading that way, that could put
us over the edge to arrest you based off Well,
we have already. There's nothing wrong with that kind of
knock and talk. It happens all the time. But now
let's go to your scenario at Oberlin knock and talk
with a family to say, we don't like what your
(31:50):
daughter or niece is about to do, which is lawful
activity in aid of a civil rights activism. We don't
want to happen. That's a problem that's trying to shape
a national narrative that you know. I think it's way too,
way too off the off the shark. So what's your reaction.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
What was the reaction when you heard about this story
at Morehouse Number one?
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Glad somebody's addressing it, because I have extremely limited knowledge
of this. I even though by the way, my first office,
as I said, Atlanta, Georgia and the FBI certainly had
contact with Morehouse, have fellow FBI agents who went to Morehouse.
But I think there's there's an insight here. Is is
(32:38):
it possible that Morehouse is finally getting what what getting
a goal in place, which is we're going to seriously
educate our young people. We've got we've got this going
pretty damn well here, and we don't need any attention
from the government, the FBI. We're in the deep South, Atlanta, Georgia,
(33:02):
and let's kind of not rock this boat. And now
you have black, bright, black students going not so fast.
We don't have everything we want, and we're not going
to be as quiet as you may want us to be,
and we've got some demands ourselves. I think that that's
just from the outside looking in. I think that's fascinating.
(33:25):
I certainly didn't serve in the FBI in Atlanta till
like nineteen eighty seven, but you know, the concern still
that I can't emphasize this enough, and I put it
in my book. I go down there, it's eighty seven.
I'm from Connecticut. Do you know that I worked cross
(33:47):
burnings and clan rallies as an FBI agent in Atlanta Georgia. Yeah,
in the eighties, it was surreal. I'm on the streets
of downtown Atlanta trying to make sure that blacks aren't
attacking a clan rally, that the clan doesn't turn on
(34:09):
the black protest. And by the way, was it this
black protesters? Thank god? There were a lot of protesters
at this client rally in Atlanta. But we're like, are
we And I'm kind of like, what am I doing here?
Speaker 7 (34:21):
Am I?
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I know I'm doing this as a civil rights operation?
Whose civil rights am I protect? It was part of
the question. And then I'll never forget across burning like
I think it was Decab County outside of Atlanta, and
I'm like, this is another what is going on here?
So why do I mention that? And now go back
to this incident at Morehouse and imagine what the climate
(34:46):
is in Atlanta and the desire to not mess up
what is looking like a good thing Morehouse University and
here come these students going no, you know, no, we
got a press. The other takeaway I have is what's
going on now in college campuses, good and bad? And
(35:08):
this is obviously a hot sensitive topic, but all of
the protests on elite college universities with regard to the
Palestinian Israeli conflict, right, and people just flipping out our
government literally grabbing people with student visas, even green cards,
(35:32):
and saying we're taking away your student visa, we're taking
away your green card, and we're deporting you. In one
case because a young lady, a Tufts University student, had
the audacity to write an opinion piece in the school newspaper.
What so you know, it's so I can't. I'm always
(35:52):
looking at past and present and seeing the connections, and
right now we as a government, we're not accepting free
speech on college campus. Am I a fan of violence?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
No?
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Have I worked cases against Hamas, a proven terrorist organization.
Absolutely they are cold blooded evil. Have I seen any
evidence that the people who are who are being grabbed
by masked men on campus are Hamas?
Speaker 8 (36:24):
No?
Speaker 3 (36:25):
I have it.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
So I worry that we're you know, we're going back.
We're going back when you're under stress. Here's where things
go south in the bureau and same for all human nature.
Under Hoover's time, you've got this kind of communist scare.
Bombs are going off, riots in the street. You know,
we're not thrilled with black people getting influence and power.
(36:47):
We're all scared, okay, And what happens by any means necessary,
you try to quash that threat. What happens in the
US after nine to eleven? And I was I was
the number two person in FBI Miami after the terror
attacks of nine to eleven unprecedented? Right, And do we
start to see things going south? Are people trying to
(37:09):
develop sources inside mosques? Yes, NYPD all by themselves had
a covert program to spy inside mosques. The Patriot Act
is passed, and some people take that as license to
grab up everybody's phone communications. All kinds of weird things
(37:31):
are happening. How about Hey, how about torture? How about waterboarding?
How about the torture to the point where we can't
even use what you just gave us in court, We've
got to go military tribunal because it's useless to us. Yeah. So,
when a society is under stress, things can go bad.
(37:52):
How do you try to put guardrails up? You have
the kinds of guardrails that I lived with in my
twenty five year experience you and you follow them relentlessly,
and you punish those who go outside those guidelines.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Frank, I can't let you. I can't let you talk
to my kid, because if you talk to my kid,
you might convince him to become an FBI convincing.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Tell me a good job, darn it.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
I tell you what.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
If it was a year ago, I might have talked
him into it. I don't. I don't know what to
tell young people today.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
Frank, don't I let you. I let you near My
son is twenty two. I let you near my kid.
Next thing I know, he's got an application in. He's
like that, I'm going on to I live in d C.
So it's just down the road. Training is down down
the road. Like the way you talk about it. Man,
you had me halfway looking like am I little too?
Speaker 1 (38:39):
All? Like we'll sign you up, We'll sign you up.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
In November of twenty twenty four, the surviving family of
Malcolm X sued the FBI, the CIA, and the NYPD
for the involvement in his assassination. The trial is still pending.
These ideas were at the heart of the at Moorhouse.
These students wanted their education to mean something in a
world that could fall apart at any moment. The state
(39:09):
could take down icons.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
In this context, the sacrifice of the students at Morehouse
if not only reasonable, but a necessary progression of the
civil rights movement.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
The educational landscape would take a major shift in the
next twenty years. The next wave of martyrs would continue
the history of protecting the black home and the black family.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
The Reagan era would introduce radical changes to policing and
drug policy. This would go on to be exacerbated by
the nineteen ninety four Crime Bill that would place an
entire generation of black and brown people behind bars for
non violent crimes.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
In twenty twenty five, our republic is in scorn. We
must revisit the heroes of our past to defeat the
cowards of our future. Next time, on the A Building,
the lock in the idea just came from two people,
myself and another brother named Spurge and Smith.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Certainly think there's a risk in protesting Bay, specifically because
the world was burning.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
The risk hasn't been this high a long time. They
came out of it. I'm knocking, huh, class, I demand
to be released, and I said, I demand as you
get back in now. The A Building is produced by
Imagine Audio for iHeart Podcasts. It is written and hosted
by me, Hans Charles and my co host menelike La Mumba.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
It is executive produced by Karl Welker and Nathan Kloke,
me Medelich, Wlamomba and Hans Charles.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Executive producers at iHeart Podcasts ar Katrina Norville and Nikki
Torre Marketing lead is David Wasserman.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
It is produced, directed, and edited by Timothy Fernarra with
producer John Asanti. Sound design and music by Alloy Tracks.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
And special thanks to April Ryan, Doctor, Eliot Davis, Kim
vci Ada, Bobby Know and James Early. If you enjoyed
this episode, be sure to rate and review the A
Building on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts
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