February 27, 2026 • 38 mins
Hans and Meneleck uncover contemporaneous notes and timelines of the lock-in, as well as many Articles from the college paper, The Maroon Tiger. They also speak with White House journalist April Ryan and Emmy-winning documentarian Mike Shum about their experience with protests as a means for change and the future of resistance.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Coming up on the A Building.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
We have broken the status what we've changed. So that's
one of the reasons why our wins, our protests have
created this atmosphere right now to take away our history,
to take away everything from us, because we've won too
much in their eyes.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I really hope that there's a future where we can
still address social ills together.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
The A Building, Episode five, The Takeover.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Benjamin Mays with the sixth president of Morehouse College. He
was born to two former slaves in South Carolina. He
graduated from Bates College in Lewiston, Maine, in nineteen twenty
He came to Atlanta and became a Baptist minister. In
nineteen twenty two. He concluded a master's degree in New
Testament studies from the University of Chicago School of Religion
(01:08):
in nineteen twenty five. He became president of Morehouse. In
nineteen forty, at the turn of a new decade, Morehouse
found itself amid a morale problem. Black institutions in the
Atlanta area were progressing faster in faculty and curriculum. Between
nineteen thirty and nineteen forty, the faculty and Land University
increased by two hundred and twenty percent, and the faculty
(01:31):
at Spelman College increased by eighty percent.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Most Morehouse classes were taught by Atlanta University and Spellman faculty.
Uncollected tuition and a small endowment hurt any chance at
expansion for Morehouse. At the beginning of his tenure as president,
Mays devised elaborate fundraising campaigns for alumni to increase contributions.
He also installed programs to collect tuition arrears from students aggressively.
(01:58):
He earned the nickname bucke Beny around campus.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
During his twenty seven years as president, the land area
doubled from ten to twenty acres. He was able to
build five dormitories, a dining hall, a new academic building,
the Morehouse School of Religion and Music, student and faculty housing.
After his retirement, he became a President emeritus and a
member of the Morehouse Board of Trustees. He cast a
(02:24):
large shadow on the new president, Hugh Gloucester. Both men
found themselves locked in with students who were very unhappy
with the corslated Morehouse, and the frustration would go beyond
the norm of the corps expected of Morehouse men.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
The students expressed their frustration to doctor Mays. They liked them,
they respected them, but they wanted more. Doctor King's assassination
had left a dark cloud on the entire campus, and
in this moment all decorum was gone. Here are doctor
Mays's contemporaneous notes of the locke In.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
This is April eighteenth, the day of the annual board
meeting of Morehouse College. I'm writing this article while being
held hostage, along with other trustees of Morehouse College, by
a group of students from several of the institutions that
make up the Atlanta University Center. Members of a committee
which met with the Morehouse board were four women from Spelman,
three from Morehouse, one from Clark, one from Morris Brown,
(03:21):
and a professor from Spelman College.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
At ten a m.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
The Atlanta University Board adjourned and the Morehouse board meeting
was supposed to begin. It never got started. The committee
refused to leave the Morehouse board meeting and presented certain demands.
The teacher from Spelman obviously was in control of the group.
I came to the meeting at nine thirty this morning.
It is now three thirty a m. April nineteen, and
we have been chained in for seventeen and a half hours.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Mays wrote this letter from the walls of the board
his frustration with the methods, and added Toude of the
students was clear he would continue.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
The group outside the room. In the hall numbers about
fifty or sixty and a morehouse professor. The doors are
locked and chained. I guess that students in the hall
are from several institutions in the Center. Some of them
are not students at all. At noon on the seventeenth,
a group of students came to the Atlanta University luncheon
and presented the trustees with a document for each to sign.
(04:16):
This document read, we the undersigned, resigned from the Board
of Trustees of the schools within the Atlanta University Center.
Our purpose in resigning is to enable the Black community
to control their own education, and toward this end, an
entirely new process of control must be established, and so
we step aside. This act will release us from all
responsibility and leave the schools in the hands of an
(04:39):
interim committee of alumni, faculty, and the students, to be
elected from their respective groups. Of course, no one signed.
Among the demands are the name of the Atlanta University
Center to be changed to the Martin Luther King Junior University,
black control of the colleges in the center, and that
the trustees support the idea of a single university merging
(05:00):
the six institutions. They mean by black control that the
majority of the trustees be black. They really wanted to
get rid of all white trustees. Doctor Martin Luther King Senior,
a member of the more House Board, vigorously opposed changing
the name of the center to the Martin Luther King
Junior University.
Speaker 7 (05:17):
No, no, my son's name, my name, it won't be
used for this, not like this.
Speaker 8 (05:24):
This isn't the right way to go about this. And
y'all know that.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
The Moorhouse Board did vote to include an additional nine
members on the board, all of home would be black.
There was no meaning of the minds on the other demands.
So here we are locked in the boardroom of Harkness Hall.
We will remain in prison for a total of twenty
eight and a half hours. Some of the group of
students are most insulting. They curse and use vulgar language.
If the methods and demands of this group are implemented,
(05:50):
the black colleges will soon pass away. I have never
met a more insulting group in all my years.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Using maze Is the voice of these contentious negotiations was
a deliberate choice by the administration. He was certainly more
popular amongst the student population than the current president, Hugh Gloucester. Therefore,
his rebuke of the protest and the students spoke to
the uphill battle and the current morale on campus. Here's
(06:17):
more from our conversation with Professor Philosophy at Morehouse College,
doctor Elia Davis.
Speaker 9 (06:22):
You all probably already read many of the nineteen sixty
nine Maroon Tigers.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Now, like the Maroon Tigers are are newspaper.
Speaker 9 (06:30):
Yeah, they are replete with story of the story of rebellion.
It is a ma and I have several of them
that I downloaded. I mean, these brothers, they're calling each
other out in ways that I wish my students would today.
If you look at the articles from sixty nine, if
you read those articles, you will see they were merely
(06:50):
acting out what had been written about that whole year.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
November twenty two, nineteen sixty eight, Harold mckelton, This year
our college needs a reawakening, and such a rebirth can
only come with e mergence of a new student force
of creative innovators. No one is beyond criticism, not the
establishment or we ourselves. The old order seldom stumbles on
its own accord. Power is either wrestled from their hands
(07:14):
through destructive revolution, or the creative socratic gas lies pester
their tails until the annoying bussing is finally acknowledged. December eighteenth,
nineteen sixty eight. W. Grayson Mitchell. Student power comes out
of conflict, not a polite exchange of opposing views. It
comes out of military light confrontation between collegiate and the
(07:35):
college administration. In keeping with patterns of conventional warfare. The
side exerting more force and wielding more pressure exits as
the gallant victor. The students overthrow the system and impose
self rule. April eighteenth, nineteen sixty nine, Carthur Drake, editor
of The Maroon Tiger. Too many times I've seen falsely
(07:57):
led people make false accusations against other peace people's character.
Speaker 8 (08:01):
Too many times.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
I've seen falsely led people make accusations against our black institutions.
Speaker 8 (08:06):
Too many times.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
I've seen falsely led people make unsupported claimed accusations against
Morehouse College.
Speaker 9 (08:13):
And so I think the Morehouse students picked all of
this up as my point. I think all of them
understood acutely that we want to be different, and this
is the funny day. It's not just about morehouse and
black schools either. It's a sentiment that I think was
ubiquitous across college campuses. And that is for those of
us who care. What is it that we can.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
Do to represent it?
Speaker 9 (08:36):
How do we not find ourselves being guilty of the
elitism that a generation before us was guilty of.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
One member of the board found himself at the center
of the conversation.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Martin Luther King Senior, often referred to as Daddy King,
was a taling figure in the American civil rights movement
and a steadfast leader in the Christian community. Born Michael
King on December eighteenth, eighteen ninety nine in Stottbridge, Georgia,
he later changed his name to Martin Luther King to
honor the Protestant reformer Martin Luther. His legacy is deeply
(09:10):
intertwined with that of his son, doctor Martin Luther King Junior,
but he was a significant leader in his own right,
shaping the moral and spiritual fabric of the time.
Speaker 10 (09:20):
Not old preacher was right, You know what that old
pushers after lone, you heard my drim hit.
Speaker 8 (09:32):
Long as I live and travel around, I'll hasten to
the throne.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
He was right.
Speaker 8 (09:39):
Are you listening?
Speaker 4 (09:41):
I love him, God loves I do.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
In pursuit of higher education, he attended Dillard University in
New Orleans, Louisiana, before transferring to Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. Morehouse,
with its strong reputation for producing African American leaders, played
a crucial role in jping king seniors theological.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
And social perspectives.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
At Morehouse, he was mentored by influential figures such as
doctor John Hope and doctor Benjamin Mays, both of whom
emphasized the importance of education, service, and advocacy in the
African American community. His time at Morehouse reinforced his commitment
to fighting racial injustice and uplifted his aspirations for ministry
(10:27):
and social change.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
After completing his studies, King Senior became a minister and
took on a leadership role at the Ebenezer Baptist Church
in Atlanta. He married Alberta Williams, the daughter of Riven
Adam Daniel Williams, the church's senior pastor. Following his father
in law's passing, King Senior became the lead pastor of Ebenezer,
a position he would hold for over four decades. His
(10:52):
passionate sermons an unwavering commitment to justice made him a
respected figure in Atlanta's religious and civic communities. Throughout his ministry,
King Senior advocated for racial equality and cannely uplifting it.
He was a firm believer in economic empowerment, voter rights,
and educational access for African Americans. His leadership extended beyond
(11:14):
the poolpit, as he played an active role in the
NAACP and other organizations pushing for desegregation and equal rights.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
In nineteen seventy four, his wife, Alberta, was killed inside
the Ebenezer Baptist Church during a service. He was the target.
His legacy as a man of faith and social activism
connects him to the great legacy of American resistance.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
Here's a moment we've previously heard from Alvida King, granddaughter
to Daddy King. Dude, do you recall, as you all
called in, Daddy King's reaction to that lock in, or
his reaction to being essentially held hostage in that way you.
Speaker 11 (12:01):
Know he was like these young folks. That's what he
would have said, you know, his own son. He didn't
agree with all my uncle and Daddy's tactics. He would
ask them to come back off, to not be so
forceful with it. It was too dangerous. There's got to
be a better way. That was Granddaddy's perspective. So he
would have had to have looked at it to say,
these are the young folks. He would never have discredited
(12:25):
their concerns. He never would, but he may not have
agreed with their method.
Speaker 8 (12:31):
No, but sir, here us out. We only need to know.
Speaker 7 (12:35):
No, my son's name, my name, it won't be used
for this, not like this.
Speaker 8 (12:42):
This isn't the right way to go about this.
Speaker 7 (12:43):
And y'all know that we're prisoners in here and we're
supposed to listen to you.
Speaker 8 (12:50):
This isn't what more House men would do.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
All due respect sir, but I think this is exactly
what a more House man would do.
Speaker 8 (13:00):
So, Sam Vivid, where does that leave us?
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Welcome back to the A building.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
The following is a timeline presented by the Morehouse College
Bulletin in the summer of nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Three pm. April eighteen, several hundred More House students advanced
toward the administration building to liberate the trustees and the
SGA representatives, but are dissuaded because of possible injury to
themselves and students occupying the building.
Speaker 5 (13:37):
Evening April eighteen, Doctor Gloucester submitted his resignation as president
of Morehouse College, effective on a day to be agreed
upon by the Board in himself, because he would not
participate in a meeting in which members of the Board
of Trustees are confined in this conference room by force
and are subjected to insult and intimidation. He said that
he would not sign any document or vote on any
(14:00):
motion presented in such a meeting, that he would not
be a party to concessions made under duress.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
After reading his letter to the board, Doctor Gloster went
on the balcony and read it to Morehouse students, who
once more were dissuaded from entering the building by force.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
At the request of President Gloucester, Jared Manly and four
other Morehouse board members were freed from the locke in
because of age and or illness. Morning April nineteenth, several
hundred Morehouse students again advanced towards the Administration building to
liberate the trustees and their SGA representatives, but their SGA
(14:37):
president advised them to refrain from entering the building in
order to avoid violence. Doctor Mays and doctor Gloucester agreed
to go outside the building to discourage students from entering
by force. Four pm April nineteen, under duress, six of
the nine board members present vote to approve the following concessions.
(15:00):
The addition of nine black trustees, including students and faculty members,
and the limitation of all trustees to not more than
two successive.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Terms in office.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
The endorsement of the idea of the consolidation of the
six institutions in the Atlanta University Center and of recommending
this idea to boards of other Center schools. The granting
of amisted at Morehouse students participating in the locke in.
The lock in was terminated and both trustees and the
SGA representatives were freed. During the lock in, students not
(15:36):
only seized and occupied the administration building and attained and
imprisoned the trustees and Student Government Association representatives, but also
broke into and occupied the office of the President, damaged
school property, placed unauthorized long distance phone calls and made
unauthorized use of the school supplies. During a meeting with
(15:58):
the trustees in sale Hall Chatter, the student body overwhelmingly
floated to reject the resignation of doctor Gloucester and the
concessions made by board members to their captors.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
On May sixth, the Faculty of Morehouse Will released the
following mimo to the Board.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
To the Board of Trustees of Morehouse College from the
Faculty of Morehouse College, subject lock in of Trustees and
SGA representatives on April eighteen and nineteen, We the Faculty
of Morehouse College, do hereby disapprove, deplore and condemn the humiliations,
insults in terror tactics committed by certain students and teachers
(16:35):
on April eighteen and nineteen. We further resent the implicit
and explicit racist overtones and the activities of the aforesaid
group on the above dates. We affirm our support of
the attached Statement of Student Rights and Freedoms which was
adopted by the faculty on February sixth, nineteen sixty nine.
Since the Board of Trustees has nullified the concessions made
(16:57):
under dress on April nineteen, we are assuming that our
Faculty Student Advisory Committee, the duly established judiciary body at
Morehouse College, may proceed to take any disciplinary action which
it deems necessary and proper. The above statement was adopted
by the faculty during its regular student meeting on May sixth,
nineteen sixty nine, for transmittal to the Board of Trustees.
(17:19):
Samuel W. Williams, Secretary of the Faculty.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
We spoke with reporter Arthur and white House, correspondent for
the GRIL, April Ryan about her alma mater, Morga State
University and protests as a means for change. There.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
There's something familiar about an HBC. It's family, it's home.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
What was campus activism like at the time, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
People were sick of the food, they were sick of tuition.
At Morgan, we are part of the community. We don't
have barriers. You can walk on campus. Anyone is allowed
on campus, and unfortunately some of those elements from the
outside bleed into the campus. They have and so at
the time, I remember the students were upset because they
felt like it wasn't safe. And we've had these problems
(18:08):
for years. But there's more of a concerted effort now.
I mean And here's the thing, because of some of
those protests, we now have a police station literally right
next to the basically on some of the campus grounds,
just carved out, you know, a Baltimore City police station
right there. You know, it's never risen to a point
(18:29):
where we just shut the school down, but we've always
had faculty and staff that listened, and that's always been
the case. They did take over Truth Hall at one time.
That was after I got out of school. We also
Morgan is also historic because it was right around the
corner from this place called Northwood Northwood shopping Center, and
(18:53):
Northwood built a wall behind the shopping center so we
couldn't get in. But now the school owns that shot
center and they've taken the wall down. Morgan has been
a part of so much history. They sat in at
Northwood at some of those lunch counters in the sixties
(19:13):
when people were sitting in. Morgan is a small part
of the broader protesting of the sixties. You cannot be
black and be a black institution and not feel the
brunt of the broader society. And each time from Reagan
when Reagan was president, I was a student and I
(19:35):
see this Martin Luther King Day celebration. And guess who
happened to be there? Rosa Parks. Rosa Parks, the mother
of the civil rights movement, was sitting there at this
Martin Luther King celebration during the Reagan years, right Stevie
Wonder saying, and this was just a few years out
of us getting the national holiday. The place was on
(19:57):
such a high, it was the most amazing moment ever.
Our institutions are places that teach us to break the
status quo, just like Harvard and Yale and Georgetown and Princeton.
But we're taught it differently. You know, they were taught
and probably still are, that they were going to be
(20:17):
the ones to lead the country. But guess what HBCUs
have taught us that we break the status quo. We
have broken the status quote. You had a Vice President
of the United States.
Speaker 8 (20:26):
It's an HBC.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
You are. You have one of the most powerful men
in Washington, Collageman James Clyburn is an HBC. Youre Cedric Richmond,
who had the ear of the President of the United States,
was an HBC. Europ You know April Ryan, the longest
serving Black White House correspondent in the nation's history is
a proud hbc ere. We have broken the status quot
(20:49):
We've changed, and that's one of the reasons why our wins,
our protests have created this atmosphere right now to take
away our history, to take away everything from us, because
we've won too much. In their eyes, we've gained too much.
Why do you think they're going after anti woken, anti
dei I woke miss back in the sixties, I woke.
(21:11):
This now creates change, it effectuates change.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
And now here's more from Mentalex conversation with Emmy Award
winning documentary filmmaker Mike Schumm on the complications of protests
today in the world of social media and the risk
to those who protest.
Speaker 10 (21:29):
And so now you can literally now literally control what
you see.
Speaker 6 (21:34):
Yeah, that's why.
Speaker 10 (21:35):
People were shocked when Trump won the first time, because
it was like, hold on what the people that actually
voted for Democrat but it's like, yeah, because they literally
didn't see here read engage anything that wasn't outside of
their political purview, right right, Like that's that's fascinating that
it's creating like this intellectual isolation. That's that's actually anathetical
(21:58):
to anything when it comes to like this basic interaction, right,
like what was supposed to be a tool to truly
enhance our human connectivity.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Absolutely, I think it's the reverse, the reverse, and that
is that part is fascinating, you know, and that and
that's the thing that scares me. I'll say, I'm afraid
of how protests or what the future holds in.
Speaker 6 (22:26):
The way of coming together and mobilizing. I don't know how.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
I don't know the future of that because I see
a lot of consequence that is the loudest one on
social media is dictating the narrative of of of of
of protest or dictating the role of disrupting the way
people are thinking. I think we've created the conditions and
(22:55):
isolating conditions for us to not work together. I think,
uh that our identities tagged to this sort of virtual perspective.
Speaker 6 (23:04):
That's really concerning, and.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I don't quite I don't quite know how to think
about it clearly. But I hope still that maybe if
it's not social media a reminder on some level that
we can stay connected and humanized moving forward.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
I don't know. Yeah, I'm struggled about this.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
That's a rough one, because then you have to say Okay,
what is the future of resistance in that in that context,
if you can't even really agree on what's what right right?
Speaker 3 (23:33):
I think that's the part where we've relegated ourselves so
closely to how we appear in this virtual space that
I really hope that there's a future where we can
still recognize each other as human beings struggling to address
social ills together. I think there's something there, and I
(23:54):
feel like we've lost a bit of that spirit of
coming together. I think the more we lean into social media,
I think I think we create more barriers for ourselves
and hence not as effective resistance towards unchecked power.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
Yeah. It's almost as if you get to clock in
and hey, see, look I did my resisting on Twitter already,
so I'm good.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
You know how many likes did I get to fulfill
my resistance today?
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Yeah? That I feel my resistance quota for the day.
Speaker 6 (24:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
And being behind a social media handle that there are
a few there are little stakes for that person. I
think it comes back to this idea of of.
Speaker 6 (24:37):
Malcolm and Martin Luther King.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
I think both of them struggled with knowing that when
they pursued protests in these movements, They struggled with the
consequences of.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
Each of these moments.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
How many people died, how many people were assaulted.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
Arrested, arrested.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
They had to deal with that in their communities, in
these churches.
Speaker 6 (24:58):
And yet tap them up at night, kept them up
at night.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
And that's the thrust and the importance of what it
takes to resist, and that is to have to deal
with those consequences. What does it look like when everything
is burned to the ground the next day?
Speaker 6 (25:12):
How do you pick up the pieces?
Speaker 3 (25:13):
These are things that we don't talk about as much anymore,
I don't think at least.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Welcome back to the a building.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
Okay, back to our story of the lock in at Morehouse.
So now that we kind of have, you know, we've
finally gone through the whole timeline of the protest, what
they went through, what the consequences are like, what do
you think really about like the cost of protests, you know,
not just for a college student, what we've seen here
(25:50):
in this story, this lock in, but kind of like
the cost of protests for society at large, for the republic.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I mean, I think that in this country there's a
generation that remembers that to attend a college or university
is to be on a space where you get to
protest and you get to voice you're unhappiness with certain
(26:18):
things happening in society. I think over the last twenty
years we've sort of a culturated couple generations of young
people to not use that or to demonize that that
use of the voice, specifically on college and university campuses.
(26:40):
And what's interesting is, I think we've seen the consequences
of that turned against college and universities because now that
college and universities are under attack, there are now no
societal foot soldiers to protect them. So if you haven't
a situation like at Columbia where the school itself turns
(27:04):
against its students to appease outside people, and then it
further appeases a bully in the form of the federal
administration paying money acquiescing. There is no student protest outcry.
There's no outcry in other college campuses. And you saw
(27:25):
during the George Floyd period that there'd be an outcry
in one part of the country and the rest of
the country would sort of respond. But we sort of
taken that out. We demonized the NFL players for protesting
we demonize the basketball players for protesting. And then now
you have a situation where the administration has attacked the
(27:48):
University of Virginia. It has attacked George Mason University. The
president of the University of Virginia resigned in order to
protect the school. And the idea is that the governor
governing y INCN is going to recommend a president who
is more ideologically inligned with his thoughts, and he's attempting
(28:10):
to do the same thing with George Mason University, which
is probably one of the most diverse schools in the country,
and they're using the through line this idea that there's
anti Semitism on George Mason's campus. What's interesting is during
the sort of uprisings and protests that were happening on
campuses protesting the October seventh conflict in the Middle East,
(28:35):
George Mason was one of the places where there was
almost no activity on campus. George Mason has a significant
population of students from the Middle East, from all of
the Middle East, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, you name it, Saudi Arabia, Iran,
(28:57):
you name it. We have a significant population of students
from who have backgrounds from that part of the world,
but we didn't have we didn't have protests on campus.
The school's administration kind of discouraged seriously students voicing their
displeasure with what was happening between the Israeli government and
(29:20):
the residents of Palestine. I think what's interesting is, in turn,
now that the administration has specifically targeted the president of
George Mason University, there's no foot soldiers to protect the president.
There's no foot soldiers to protect the school. There is
no outcry. There are no parents who can put pressure
on the governor of Virginia, who can embarrass the administration
(29:44):
because their kids are putting their lives on the line.
If we think back to the protests in Alabama, when
when young kids were protesting in the streets in Birmingham,
the parents feeling about that put a lot of pressure
on King to make those protests work. There's a lot
of pressure when kids put their lives on the line.
Everybody gets tense. Everybody you have to be careful. You
(30:07):
can't if you put hoses on those kids, you are
now forever. You're labeled forever because of that. Right, and
you're looking at George Mason, there's no protest, there's no
response from local residents, from students, because I think we've
demonized protests in a way, and so I think for me,
it's a lesson that you have to be careful in
a space, in this academic space, you have to be
(30:29):
careful in quote unquote punishment, right. I think in this
case at Morehouse, it's interesting because those students, they were
making phone calls, they destroyed some property. Maybe they should
have been punished for that, but you know, for the
act of demanding, making these demands that the administration essentially
not only agreed upon, but the school made those some
of those changes, and the school became better for it.
(30:53):
I think there's something to be said about that. I
think young people are usually right, and those of us
who are not as young as these young people, we
don't like to listen to them. We get annoyed because
they want to change things, but they tend to be right.
They make us uncomfortable. They tend to be right, and
I think when you stamp that out of them, I
(31:13):
think society loses a lot. A lot of the changes
that have happened in this particular country have happened because
young people will go to the forefront of these changes.
Maybe they weren't the ones who enacted the demands, but
they see the future and they give of them themselves
and want to make these changes, and they happen. And
(31:37):
I'm looking at the country right now and I'm seeing
what's happened. It's affecting young people directly, and where's their voice?
Totally suppressed. It's suppressed. But it's our fault, right we
demonize young folks for protesting. For the last thirty years,
we've blunted protests. We've put police forces on campus. We've
(32:00):
been punitive when people simply disagree with their administration, when
they say we don't like the leadership. We've been more
punitive now than we've ever been. At the end of
the day, these students were expelled that they you know,
there was a connection between these students and the administration.
I think we've been more punitive than we've ever been.
(32:21):
And now that there's an attack on higher education from
outside the university system, where are the students to protect
their schools? Because if the students put theirselves on the line,
guess what their parents would be forced in order to
protect their kids. Their parents would be forced into the
issue and would pre pressure. Even if the parents didn't agree,
they would still want to protect their kids.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
We've seen that in the past, So I think it's
a I think it. I think there's a through line
to be made. I think it's an irony. Imagine if
we encourage protests. If you knew that when young people
decide they don't like an issue, they're going to make
a stink, They're gonna stop spending mone honey, they're gonna
disruct things on campus, They're gonna they're gonna do this thing.
I think the attacks on higher education, it would happen differently.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
I guess it would have to.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Right, absolutely, that generational recognition is something that we're missing
fundamentally in this country.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
And Hans, when have college students ever been okay with
war to this degree?
Speaker 8 (33:23):
And can you believe these kids aren't for this war?
Who no like yeah, yeah, look history at all.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Not only can't they not believe that they disagree, but
they're like and they're being rude. An entire generation of
young of college students turn their backs on the armed forces.
If you served, they had no respect for you, if
he served in Vietnam because they disagreed with war, you
(33:50):
know what I mean, Like like they have always done
it in the roughest way they could. They they didn't
lift a finger and punch people. They just said, I
will not honor you because I know you have blood
on your hands, even though it wasn't your fault. Right,
And in some cases they turn those veterans against the country,
(34:11):
against the war, you know, they honored those veterans. I said, yeah,
you're right, this was wrong. So I'm saying that to say,
of course there's gonna be some rudeness. There's gonna be
some things that are not nice that comes out of
that discourse.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
This idea that you can have this discourse but nobody's
feelings could be hurt is insane.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
And hows that's what's interesting about this episode when you
listen to all of this, nobody in power is like,
you know, if these are terrible ideas you see on
the only real kind of practical resistance is from Daddy King,
who doesn't want the name, but from our conversation with
Alvida King, and also just from kind of understanding his
(34:54):
basic ideas on civil rights, he probably agreed with everything
else philosophically. Yeah, but what was the issue, how dare you?
Speaker 8 (35:04):
How did you like me using you're cussing at us?
Speaker 4 (35:08):
You know, And obviously this whole thing happened at George
Mason probably hits home for you because you work there.
I mean, you're on the faculty there.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
I'm a tenured faculty member, yes, and I've been there
for ten years. And in some ways I've never really
taken my job as an academic seriously in terms of
like I don't see the job itself was hallowed. I
think being and not having an opportunity to influence students
is important, but I think this attack on higher education
(35:36):
is quite fascinating. Like there's a proposal in Texas to
take away tenure, which is an opportunity to silence voices
that you don't like. So it's it's interesting and it
is personal. What is it that doesn't mean for for
somebody to silence my voice? This podcast could run me
(35:57):
into some trouble. Some of the film I decide to
show could run me into some trouble because there's no
freedom to express my ideas to my students, and there's
in turn, I think there'll be no freedom for the
students to disagree with me, right that's the whole point.
I get to express ideas, but the students get to
fundamentally disagree, and that that conflict is what makes learning
(36:24):
because something happens at the end of that interaction. Something
happens at the end of that discourse. Men like you
understand this because you are a frequent lecture at different
schools and universities. Yeah, certainly you understand this dynamic. So
the idea that you could intimidate faculty universe by removing
(36:44):
a president under false pretenses, or removing tenure, or removing
financial support for students in the form of student loans
and grants is It's a very interesting move. And what's
interesting about this story is that at the end of
the day, the institution valued the students. It valued this
(37:09):
interaction between itself and the students. It may have not
liked the way it happened, but it valued it. It
valued the conflict. And we're approaching a situation in this
country where we're no longer valuing the conflict, the conflict
of ideas, not action, just ideas. I don't like your idea,
therefore I will restrict your right.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
To express it.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
It's a fascinating moment in this country.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
Next time on the A Building. And that was part
of the reason that I got expelled from school my
junior year because when we locked up the board of
trustees in that building. Wait a minute.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
The A Building is produced by Imagine Audio for iHeart Podcasts.
It is written and hosted by me Hans Charles and
my co host Menelike Lamoumba.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
It is executive produced by Karral Welker and Nathan Coloke,
me Manelike Lamumba and Hans Charles.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Executive producers at iHeart Podcasts are Katrina Norville and Nikki Torre.
Marketing lead is David Wasserman.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
It is produced, directed, and edited by Timothy Fernara, with
producer John Asanti, Sound design and music by Alloy.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Tracks, and special thanks to April Ryan, Doctor, Elia Davis,
Kim Feci, Ada, Bobby Know and James Early. If you
enjoyed this episode, be sure to rate and review The
A Building on Apple podcast or wherever you get your
podcast
Coming up on the A Building.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
We have broken the status what we've changed. So that's
one of the reasons why our wins, our protests have
created this atmosphere right now to take away our history,
to take away everything from us, because we've won too
much in their eyes.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I really hope that there's a future where we can
still address social ills together.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
The A Building, Episode five, The Takeover.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Benjamin Mays with the sixth president of Morehouse College. He
was born to two former slaves in South Carolina. He
graduated from Bates College in Lewiston, Maine, in nineteen twenty
He came to Atlanta and became a Baptist minister. In
nineteen twenty two. He concluded a master's degree in New
Testament studies from the University of Chicago School of Religion
(01:08):
in nineteen twenty five. He became president of Morehouse. In
nineteen forty, at the turn of a new decade, Morehouse
found itself amid a morale problem. Black institutions in the
Atlanta area were progressing faster in faculty and curriculum. Between
nineteen thirty and nineteen forty, the faculty and Land University
increased by two hundred and twenty percent, and the faculty
(01:31):
at Spelman College increased by eighty percent.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Most Morehouse classes were taught by Atlanta University and Spellman faculty.
Uncollected tuition and a small endowment hurt any chance at
expansion for Morehouse. At the beginning of his tenure as president,
Mays devised elaborate fundraising campaigns for alumni to increase contributions.
He also installed programs to collect tuition arrears from students aggressively.
(01:58):
He earned the nickname bucke Beny around campus.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
During his twenty seven years as president, the land area
doubled from ten to twenty acres. He was able to
build five dormitories, a dining hall, a new academic building,
the Morehouse School of Religion and Music, student and faculty housing.
After his retirement, he became a President emeritus and a
member of the Morehouse Board of Trustees. He cast a
(02:24):
large shadow on the new president, Hugh Gloucester. Both men
found themselves locked in with students who were very unhappy
with the corslated Morehouse, and the frustration would go beyond
the norm of the corps expected of Morehouse men.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
The students expressed their frustration to doctor Mays. They liked them,
they respected them, but they wanted more. Doctor King's assassination
had left a dark cloud on the entire campus, and
in this moment all decorum was gone. Here are doctor
Mays's contemporaneous notes of the locke In.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
This is April eighteenth, the day of the annual board
meeting of Morehouse College. I'm writing this article while being
held hostage, along with other trustees of Morehouse College, by
a group of students from several of the institutions that
make up the Atlanta University Center. Members of a committee
which met with the Morehouse board were four women from Spelman,
three from Morehouse, one from Clark, one from Morris Brown,
(03:21):
and a professor from Spelman College.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
At ten a m.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
The Atlanta University Board adjourned and the Morehouse board meeting
was supposed to begin. It never got started. The committee
refused to leave the Morehouse board meeting and presented certain demands.
The teacher from Spelman obviously was in control of the group.
I came to the meeting at nine thirty this morning.
It is now three thirty a m. April nineteen, and
we have been chained in for seventeen and a half hours.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Mays wrote this letter from the walls of the board
his frustration with the methods, and added Toude of the
students was clear he would continue.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
The group outside the room. In the hall numbers about
fifty or sixty and a morehouse professor. The doors are
locked and chained. I guess that students in the hall
are from several institutions in the Center. Some of them
are not students at all. At noon on the seventeenth,
a group of students came to the Atlanta University luncheon
and presented the trustees with a document for each to sign.
(04:16):
This document read, we the undersigned, resigned from the Board
of Trustees of the schools within the Atlanta University Center.
Our purpose in resigning is to enable the Black community
to control their own education, and toward this end, an
entirely new process of control must be established, and so
we step aside. This act will release us from all
responsibility and leave the schools in the hands of an
(04:39):
interim committee of alumni, faculty, and the students, to be
elected from their respective groups. Of course, no one signed.
Among the demands are the name of the Atlanta University
Center to be changed to the Martin Luther King Junior University,
black control of the colleges in the center, and that
the trustees support the idea of a single university merging
(05:00):
the six institutions. They mean by black control that the
majority of the trustees be black. They really wanted to
get rid of all white trustees. Doctor Martin Luther King Senior,
a member of the more House Board, vigorously opposed changing
the name of the center to the Martin Luther King
Junior University.
Speaker 7 (05:17):
No, no, my son's name, my name, it won't be
used for this, not like this.
Speaker 8 (05:24):
This isn't the right way to go about this. And
y'all know that.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
The Moorhouse Board did vote to include an additional nine
members on the board, all of home would be black.
There was no meaning of the minds on the other demands.
So here we are locked in the boardroom of Harkness Hall.
We will remain in prison for a total of twenty
eight and a half hours. Some of the group of
students are most insulting. They curse and use vulgar language.
If the methods and demands of this group are implemented,
(05:50):
the black colleges will soon pass away. I have never
met a more insulting group in all my years.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Using maze Is the voice of these contentious negotiations was
a deliberate choice by the administration. He was certainly more
popular amongst the student population than the current president, Hugh Gloucester. Therefore,
his rebuke of the protest and the students spoke to
the uphill battle and the current morale on campus. Here's
(06:17):
more from our conversation with Professor Philosophy at Morehouse College,
doctor Elia Davis.
Speaker 9 (06:22):
You all probably already read many of the nineteen sixty
nine Maroon Tigers.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Now, like the Maroon Tigers are are newspaper.
Speaker 9 (06:30):
Yeah, they are replete with story of the story of rebellion.
It is a ma and I have several of them
that I downloaded. I mean, these brothers, they're calling each
other out in ways that I wish my students would today.
If you look at the articles from sixty nine, if
you read those articles, you will see they were merely
(06:50):
acting out what had been written about that whole year.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
November twenty two, nineteen sixty eight, Harold mckelton, This year
our college needs a reawakening, and such a rebirth can
only come with e mergence of a new student force
of creative innovators. No one is beyond criticism, not the
establishment or we ourselves. The old order seldom stumbles on
its own accord. Power is either wrestled from their hands
(07:14):
through destructive revolution, or the creative socratic gas lies pester
their tails until the annoying bussing is finally acknowledged. December eighteenth,
nineteen sixty eight. W. Grayson Mitchell. Student power comes out
of conflict, not a polite exchange of opposing views. It
comes out of military light confrontation between collegiate and the
(07:35):
college administration. In keeping with patterns of conventional warfare. The
side exerting more force and wielding more pressure exits as
the gallant victor. The students overthrow the system and impose
self rule. April eighteenth, nineteen sixty nine, Carthur Drake, editor
of The Maroon Tiger. Too many times I've seen falsely
(07:57):
led people make false accusations against other peace people's character.
Speaker 8 (08:01):
Too many times.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
I've seen falsely led people make accusations against our black institutions.
Speaker 8 (08:06):
Too many times.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
I've seen falsely led people make unsupported claimed accusations against
Morehouse College.
Speaker 9 (08:13):
And so I think the Morehouse students picked all of
this up as my point. I think all of them
understood acutely that we want to be different, and this
is the funny day. It's not just about morehouse and
black schools either. It's a sentiment that I think was
ubiquitous across college campuses. And that is for those of
us who care. What is it that we can.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
Do to represent it?
Speaker 9 (08:36):
How do we not find ourselves being guilty of the
elitism that a generation before us was guilty of.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
One member of the board found himself at the center
of the conversation.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Martin Luther King Senior, often referred to as Daddy King,
was a taling figure in the American civil rights movement
and a steadfast leader in the Christian community. Born Michael
King on December eighteenth, eighteen ninety nine in Stottbridge, Georgia,
he later changed his name to Martin Luther King to
honor the Protestant reformer Martin Luther. His legacy is deeply
(09:10):
intertwined with that of his son, doctor Martin Luther King Junior,
but he was a significant leader in his own right,
shaping the moral and spiritual fabric of the time.
Speaker 10 (09:20):
Not old preacher was right, You know what that old
pushers after lone, you heard my drim hit.
Speaker 8 (09:32):
Long as I live and travel around, I'll hasten to
the throne.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
He was right.
Speaker 8 (09:39):
Are you listening?
Speaker 4 (09:41):
I love him, God loves I do.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
In pursuit of higher education, he attended Dillard University in
New Orleans, Louisiana, before transferring to Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. Morehouse,
with its strong reputation for producing African American leaders, played
a crucial role in jping king seniors theological.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
And social perspectives.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
At Morehouse, he was mentored by influential figures such as
doctor John Hope and doctor Benjamin Mays, both of whom
emphasized the importance of education, service, and advocacy in the
African American community. His time at Morehouse reinforced his commitment
to fighting racial injustice and uplifted his aspirations for ministry
(10:27):
and social change.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
After completing his studies, King Senior became a minister and
took on a leadership role at the Ebenezer Baptist Church
in Atlanta. He married Alberta Williams, the daughter of Riven
Adam Daniel Williams, the church's senior pastor. Following his father
in law's passing, King Senior became the lead pastor of Ebenezer,
a position he would hold for over four decades. His
(10:52):
passionate sermons an unwavering commitment to justice made him a
respected figure in Atlanta's religious and civic communities. Throughout his ministry,
King Senior advocated for racial equality and cannely uplifting it.
He was a firm believer in economic empowerment, voter rights,
and educational access for African Americans. His leadership extended beyond
(11:14):
the poolpit, as he played an active role in the
NAACP and other organizations pushing for desegregation and equal rights.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
In nineteen seventy four, his wife, Alberta, was killed inside
the Ebenezer Baptist Church during a service. He was the target.
His legacy as a man of faith and social activism
connects him to the great legacy of American resistance.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
Here's a moment we've previously heard from Alvida King, granddaughter
to Daddy King. Dude, do you recall, as you all
called in, Daddy King's reaction to that lock in, or
his reaction to being essentially held hostage in that way you.
Speaker 11 (12:01):
Know he was like these young folks. That's what he
would have said, you know, his own son. He didn't
agree with all my uncle and Daddy's tactics. He would
ask them to come back off, to not be so
forceful with it. It was too dangerous. There's got to
be a better way. That was Granddaddy's perspective. So he
would have had to have looked at it to say,
these are the young folks. He would never have discredited
(12:25):
their concerns. He never would, but he may not have
agreed with their method.
Speaker 8 (12:31):
No, but sir, here us out. We only need to know.
Speaker 7 (12:35):
No, my son's name, my name, it won't be used
for this, not like this.
Speaker 8 (12:42):
This isn't the right way to go about this.
Speaker 7 (12:43):
And y'all know that we're prisoners in here and we're
supposed to listen to you.
Speaker 8 (12:50):
This isn't what more House men would do.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
All due respect sir, but I think this is exactly
what a more House man would do.
Speaker 8 (13:00):
So, Sam Vivid, where does that leave us?
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Welcome back to the A building.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
The following is a timeline presented by the Morehouse College
Bulletin in the summer of nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Three pm. April eighteen, several hundred More House students advanced
toward the administration building to liberate the trustees and the
SGA representatives, but are dissuaded because of possible injury to
themselves and students occupying the building.
Speaker 5 (13:37):
Evening April eighteen, Doctor Gloucester submitted his resignation as president
of Morehouse College, effective on a day to be agreed
upon by the Board in himself, because he would not
participate in a meeting in which members of the Board
of Trustees are confined in this conference room by force
and are subjected to insult and intimidation. He said that
he would not sign any document or vote on any
(14:00):
motion presented in such a meeting, that he would not
be a party to concessions made under duress.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
After reading his letter to the board, Doctor Gloster went
on the balcony and read it to Morehouse students, who
once more were dissuaded from entering the building by force.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
At the request of President Gloucester, Jared Manly and four
other Morehouse board members were freed from the locke in
because of age and or illness. Morning April nineteenth, several
hundred Morehouse students again advanced towards the Administration building to
liberate the trustees and their SGA representatives, but their SGA
(14:37):
president advised them to refrain from entering the building in
order to avoid violence. Doctor Mays and doctor Gloucester agreed
to go outside the building to discourage students from entering
by force. Four pm April nineteen, under duress, six of
the nine board members present vote to approve the following concessions.
(15:00):
The addition of nine black trustees, including students and faculty members,
and the limitation of all trustees to not more than
two successive.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Terms in office.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
The endorsement of the idea of the consolidation of the
six institutions in the Atlanta University Center and of recommending
this idea to boards of other Center schools. The granting
of amisted at Morehouse students participating in the locke in.
The lock in was terminated and both trustees and the
SGA representatives were freed. During the lock in, students not
(15:36):
only seized and occupied the administration building and attained and
imprisoned the trustees and Student Government Association representatives, but also
broke into and occupied the office of the President, damaged
school property, placed unauthorized long distance phone calls and made
unauthorized use of the school supplies. During a meeting with
(15:58):
the trustees in sale Hall Chatter, the student body overwhelmingly
floated to reject the resignation of doctor Gloucester and the
concessions made by board members to their captors.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
On May sixth, the Faculty of Morehouse Will released the
following mimo to the Board.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
To the Board of Trustees of Morehouse College from the
Faculty of Morehouse College, subject lock in of Trustees and
SGA representatives on April eighteen and nineteen, We the Faculty
of Morehouse College, do hereby disapprove, deplore and condemn the humiliations,
insults in terror tactics committed by certain students and teachers
(16:35):
on April eighteen and nineteen. We further resent the implicit
and explicit racist overtones and the activities of the aforesaid
group on the above dates. We affirm our support of
the attached Statement of Student Rights and Freedoms which was
adopted by the faculty on February sixth, nineteen sixty nine.
Since the Board of Trustees has nullified the concessions made
(16:57):
under dress on April nineteen, we are assuming that our
Faculty Student Advisory Committee, the duly established judiciary body at
Morehouse College, may proceed to take any disciplinary action which
it deems necessary and proper. The above statement was adopted
by the faculty during its regular student meeting on May sixth,
nineteen sixty nine, for transmittal to the Board of Trustees.
(17:19):
Samuel W. Williams, Secretary of the Faculty.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
We spoke with reporter Arthur and white House, correspondent for
the GRIL, April Ryan about her alma mater, Morga State
University and protests as a means for change. There.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
There's something familiar about an HBC. It's family, it's home.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
What was campus activism like at the time, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
People were sick of the food, they were sick of tuition.
At Morgan, we are part of the community. We don't
have barriers. You can walk on campus. Anyone is allowed
on campus, and unfortunately some of those elements from the
outside bleed into the campus. They have and so at
the time, I remember the students were upset because they
felt like it wasn't safe. And we've had these problems
(18:08):
for years. But there's more of a concerted effort now.
I mean And here's the thing, because of some of
those protests, we now have a police station literally right
next to the basically on some of the campus grounds,
just carved out, you know, a Baltimore City police station
right there. You know, it's never risen to a point
(18:29):
where we just shut the school down, but we've always
had faculty and staff that listened, and that's always been
the case. They did take over Truth Hall at one time.
That was after I got out of school. We also
Morgan is also historic because it was right around the
corner from this place called Northwood Northwood shopping Center, and
(18:53):
Northwood built a wall behind the shopping center so we
couldn't get in. But now the school owns that shot
center and they've taken the wall down. Morgan has been
a part of so much history. They sat in at
Northwood at some of those lunch counters in the sixties
(19:13):
when people were sitting in. Morgan is a small part
of the broader protesting of the sixties. You cannot be
black and be a black institution and not feel the
brunt of the broader society. And each time from Reagan
when Reagan was president, I was a student and I
(19:35):
see this Martin Luther King Day celebration. And guess who
happened to be there? Rosa Parks. Rosa Parks, the mother
of the civil rights movement, was sitting there at this
Martin Luther King celebration during the Reagan years, right Stevie
Wonder saying, and this was just a few years out
of us getting the national holiday. The place was on
(19:57):
such a high, it was the most amazing moment ever.
Our institutions are places that teach us to break the
status quo, just like Harvard and Yale and Georgetown and Princeton.
But we're taught it differently. You know, they were taught
and probably still are, that they were going to be
(20:17):
the ones to lead the country. But guess what HBCUs
have taught us that we break the status quo. We
have broken the status quote. You had a Vice President
of the United States.
Speaker 8 (20:26):
It's an HBC.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
You are. You have one of the most powerful men
in Washington, Collageman James Clyburn is an HBC. Youre Cedric Richmond,
who had the ear of the President of the United States,
was an HBC. Europ You know April Ryan, the longest
serving Black White House correspondent in the nation's history is
a proud hbc ere. We have broken the status quot
(20:49):
We've changed, and that's one of the reasons why our wins,
our protests have created this atmosphere right now to take
away our history, to take away everything from us, because
we've won too much. In their eyes, we've gained too much.
Why do you think they're going after anti woken, anti
dei I woke miss back in the sixties, I woke.
(21:11):
This now creates change, it effectuates change.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
And now here's more from Mentalex conversation with Emmy Award
winning documentary filmmaker Mike Schumm on the complications of protests
today in the world of social media and the risk
to those who protest.
Speaker 10 (21:29):
And so now you can literally now literally control what
you see.
Speaker 6 (21:34):
Yeah, that's why.
Speaker 10 (21:35):
People were shocked when Trump won the first time, because
it was like, hold on what the people that actually
voted for Democrat but it's like, yeah, because they literally
didn't see here read engage anything that wasn't outside of
their political purview, right right, Like that's that's fascinating that
it's creating like this intellectual isolation. That's that's actually anathetical
(21:58):
to anything when it comes to like this basic interaction, right,
like what was supposed to be a tool to truly
enhance our human connectivity.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Absolutely, I think it's the reverse, the reverse, and that
is that part is fascinating, you know, and that and
that's the thing that scares me. I'll say, I'm afraid
of how protests or what the future holds in.
Speaker 6 (22:26):
The way of coming together and mobilizing. I don't know how.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
I don't know the future of that because I see
a lot of consequence that is the loudest one on
social media is dictating the narrative of of of of
of protest or dictating the role of disrupting the way
people are thinking. I think we've created the conditions and
(22:55):
isolating conditions for us to not work together. I think,
uh that our identities tagged to this sort of virtual perspective.
Speaker 6 (23:04):
That's really concerning, and.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I don't quite I don't quite know how to think
about it clearly. But I hope still that maybe if
it's not social media a reminder on some level that
we can stay connected and humanized moving forward.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
I don't know. Yeah, I'm struggled about this.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
That's a rough one, because then you have to say Okay,
what is the future of resistance in that in that context,
if you can't even really agree on what's what right right?
Speaker 3 (23:33):
I think that's the part where we've relegated ourselves so
closely to how we appear in this virtual space that
I really hope that there's a future where we can
still recognize each other as human beings struggling to address
social ills together. I think there's something there, and I
(23:54):
feel like we've lost a bit of that spirit of
coming together. I think the more we lean into social media,
I think I think we create more barriers for ourselves
and hence not as effective resistance towards unchecked power.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
Yeah. It's almost as if you get to clock in
and hey, see, look I did my resisting on Twitter already,
so I'm good.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
You know how many likes did I get to fulfill
my resistance today?
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Yeah? That I feel my resistance quota for the day.
Speaker 6 (24:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
And being behind a social media handle that there are
a few there are little stakes for that person. I
think it comes back to this idea of of.
Speaker 6 (24:37):
Malcolm and Martin Luther King.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
I think both of them struggled with knowing that when
they pursued protests in these movements, They struggled with the
consequences of.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
Each of these moments.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
How many people died, how many people were assaulted.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
Arrested, arrested.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
They had to deal with that in their communities, in
these churches.
Speaker 6 (24:58):
And yet tap them up at night, kept them up
at night.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
And that's the thrust and the importance of what it
takes to resist, and that is to have to deal
with those consequences. What does it look like when everything
is burned to the ground the next day?
Speaker 6 (25:12):
How do you pick up the pieces?
Speaker 3 (25:13):
These are things that we don't talk about as much anymore,
I don't think at least.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Welcome back to the a building.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
Okay, back to our story of the lock in at Morehouse.
So now that we kind of have, you know, we've
finally gone through the whole timeline of the protest, what
they went through, what the consequences are like, what do
you think really about like the cost of protests, you know,
not just for a college student, what we've seen here
(25:50):
in this story, this lock in, but kind of like
the cost of protests for society at large, for the republic.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I mean, I think that in this country there's a
generation that remembers that to attend a college or university
is to be on a space where you get to
protest and you get to voice you're unhappiness with certain
(26:18):
things happening in society. I think over the last twenty
years we've sort of a culturated couple generations of young
people to not use that or to demonize that that
use of the voice, specifically on college and university campuses.
(26:40):
And what's interesting is, I think we've seen the consequences
of that turned against college and universities because now that
college and universities are under attack, there are now no
societal foot soldiers to protect them. So if you haven't
a situation like at Columbia where the school itself turns
(27:04):
against its students to appease outside people, and then it
further appeases a bully in the form of the federal
administration paying money acquiescing. There is no student protest outcry.
There's no outcry in other college campuses. And you saw
(27:25):
during the George Floyd period that there'd be an outcry
in one part of the country and the rest of
the country would sort of respond. But we sort of
taken that out. We demonized the NFL players for protesting
we demonize the basketball players for protesting. And then now
you have a situation where the administration has attacked the
(27:48):
University of Virginia. It has attacked George Mason University. The
president of the University of Virginia resigned in order to
protect the school. And the idea is that the governor
governing y INCN is going to recommend a president who
is more ideologically inligned with his thoughts, and he's attempting
(28:10):
to do the same thing with George Mason University, which
is probably one of the most diverse schools in the country,
and they're using the through line this idea that there's
anti Semitism on George Mason's campus. What's interesting is during
the sort of uprisings and protests that were happening on
campuses protesting the October seventh conflict in the Middle East,
(28:35):
George Mason was one of the places where there was
almost no activity on campus. George Mason has a significant
population of students from the Middle East, from all of
the Middle East, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, you name it, Saudi Arabia, Iran,
(28:57):
you name it. We have a significant population of students
from who have backgrounds from that part of the world,
but we didn't have we didn't have protests on campus.
The school's administration kind of discouraged seriously students voicing their
displeasure with what was happening between the Israeli government and
(29:20):
the residents of Palestine. I think what's interesting is, in turn,
now that the administration has specifically targeted the president of
George Mason University, there's no foot soldiers to protect the president.
There's no foot soldiers to protect the school. There is
no outcry. There are no parents who can put pressure
on the governor of Virginia, who can embarrass the administration
(29:44):
because their kids are putting their lives on the line.
If we think back to the protests in Alabama, when
when young kids were protesting in the streets in Birmingham,
the parents feeling about that put a lot of pressure
on King to make those protests work. There's a lot
of pressure when kids put their lives on the line.
Everybody gets tense. Everybody you have to be careful. You
(30:07):
can't if you put hoses on those kids, you are
now forever. You're labeled forever because of that. Right, and
you're looking at George Mason, there's no protest, there's no
response from local residents, from students, because I think we've
demonized protests in a way, and so I think for me,
it's a lesson that you have to be careful in
a space, in this academic space, you have to be
(30:29):
careful in quote unquote punishment, right. I think in this
case at Morehouse, it's interesting because those students, they were
making phone calls, they destroyed some property. Maybe they should
have been punished for that, but you know, for the
act of demanding, making these demands that the administration essentially
not only agreed upon, but the school made those some
of those changes, and the school became better for it.
(30:53):
I think there's something to be said about that. I
think young people are usually right, and those of us
who are not as young as these young people, we
don't like to listen to them. We get annoyed because
they want to change things, but they tend to be right.
They make us uncomfortable. They tend to be right, and
I think when you stamp that out of them, I
(31:13):
think society loses a lot. A lot of the changes
that have happened in this particular country have happened because
young people will go to the forefront of these changes.
Maybe they weren't the ones who enacted the demands, but
they see the future and they give of them themselves
and want to make these changes, and they happen. And
(31:37):
I'm looking at the country right now and I'm seeing
what's happened. It's affecting young people directly, and where's their voice?
Totally suppressed. It's suppressed. But it's our fault, right we
demonize young folks for protesting. For the last thirty years,
we've blunted protests. We've put police forces on campus. We've
(32:00):
been punitive when people simply disagree with their administration, when
they say we don't like the leadership. We've been more
punitive now than we've ever been. At the end of
the day, these students were expelled that they you know,
there was a connection between these students and the administration.
I think we've been more punitive than we've ever been.
(32:21):
And now that there's an attack on higher education from
outside the university system, where are the students to protect
their schools? Because if the students put theirselves on the line,
guess what their parents would be forced in order to
protect their kids. Their parents would be forced into the
issue and would pre pressure. Even if the parents didn't agree,
they would still want to protect their kids.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
We've seen that in the past, So I think it's
a I think it. I think there's a through line
to be made. I think it's an irony. Imagine if
we encourage protests. If you knew that when young people
decide they don't like an issue, they're going to make
a stink, They're gonna stop spending mone honey, they're gonna
disruct things on campus, They're gonna they're gonna do this thing.
I think the attacks on higher education, it would happen differently.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
I guess it would have to.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Right, absolutely, that generational recognition is something that we're missing
fundamentally in this country.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
And Hans, when have college students ever been okay with
war to this degree?
Speaker 8 (33:23):
And can you believe these kids aren't for this war?
Who no like yeah, yeah, look history at all.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Not only can't they not believe that they disagree, but
they're like and they're being rude. An entire generation of
young of college students turn their backs on the armed forces.
If you served, they had no respect for you, if
he served in Vietnam because they disagreed with war, you
(33:50):
know what I mean, Like like they have always done
it in the roughest way they could. They they didn't
lift a finger and punch people. They just said, I
will not honor you because I know you have blood
on your hands, even though it wasn't your fault. Right,
And in some cases they turn those veterans against the country,
(34:11):
against the war, you know, they honored those veterans. I said, yeah,
you're right, this was wrong. So I'm saying that to say,
of course there's gonna be some rudeness. There's gonna be
some things that are not nice that comes out of
that discourse.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
This idea that you can have this discourse but nobody's
feelings could be hurt is insane.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
And hows that's what's interesting about this episode when you
listen to all of this, nobody in power is like,
you know, if these are terrible ideas you see on
the only real kind of practical resistance is from Daddy King,
who doesn't want the name, but from our conversation with
Alvida King, and also just from kind of understanding his
(34:54):
basic ideas on civil rights, he probably agreed with everything
else philosophically. Yeah, but what was the issue, how dare you?
Speaker 8 (35:04):
How did you like me using you're cussing at us?
Speaker 4 (35:08):
You know, And obviously this whole thing happened at George
Mason probably hits home for you because you work there.
I mean, you're on the faculty there.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
I'm a tenured faculty member, yes, and I've been there
for ten years. And in some ways I've never really
taken my job as an academic seriously in terms of
like I don't see the job itself was hallowed. I
think being and not having an opportunity to influence students
is important, but I think this attack on higher education
(35:36):
is quite fascinating. Like there's a proposal in Texas to
take away tenure, which is an opportunity to silence voices
that you don't like. So it's it's interesting and it
is personal. What is it that doesn't mean for for
somebody to silence my voice? This podcast could run me
(35:57):
into some trouble. Some of the film I decide to
show could run me into some trouble because there's no
freedom to express my ideas to my students, and there's
in turn, I think there'll be no freedom for the
students to disagree with me, right that's the whole point.
I get to express ideas, but the students get to
fundamentally disagree, and that that conflict is what makes learning
(36:24):
because something happens at the end of that interaction. Something
happens at the end of that discourse. Men like you
understand this because you are a frequent lecture at different
schools and universities. Yeah, certainly you understand this dynamic. So
the idea that you could intimidate faculty universe by removing
(36:44):
a president under false pretenses, or removing tenure, or removing
financial support for students in the form of student loans
and grants is It's a very interesting move. And what's
interesting about this story is that at the end of
the day, the institution valued the students. It valued this
(37:09):
interaction between itself and the students. It may have not
liked the way it happened, but it valued it. It
valued the conflict. And we're approaching a situation in this
country where we're no longer valuing the conflict, the conflict
of ideas, not action, just ideas. I don't like your idea,
therefore I will restrict your right.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
To express it.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
It's a fascinating moment in this country.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
Next time on the A Building. And that was part
of the reason that I got expelled from school my
junior year because when we locked up the board of
trustees in that building. Wait a minute.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
The A Building is produced by Imagine Audio for iHeart Podcasts.
It is written and hosted by me Hans Charles and
my co host Menelike Lamoumba.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
It is executive produced by Karral Welker and Nathan Coloke,
me Manelike Lamumba and Hans Charles.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Executive producers at iHeart Podcasts are Katrina Norville and Nikki Torre.
Marketing lead is David Wasserman.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
It is produced, directed, and edited by Timothy Fernara, with
producer John Asanti, Sound design and music by Alloy.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Tracks, and special thanks to April Ryan, Doctor, Elia Davis,
Kim Feci, Ada, Bobby Know and James Early. If you
enjoyed this episode, be sure to rate and review The
A Building on Apple podcast or wherever you get your
podcast
Popular Podcasts
Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb
Joy is essential. And it's also elusive. You can't order it, borrow it, or simply hope it into life. But now, there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence: The Joy 101 Podcast with Hoda! Best known for her Emmy-winning work and co-anchoring Today, Hoda Kotb infuses her authenticity, curiosity, and warmth into conversations with the world’s most fascinating people. Entertainment legends, sport icons, wellness experts, and everyday folks will share how they find, allow, and experience joy. Hoda will offer her own tips and takes on seeking a more balanced, harmonious life. If you're craving inspiration, support, and useful tools to maximize your joy, tune in to these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats. Joy after a breakup, joy as an empty-nester, joy after loss, joy as a caretaker — Hoda's new podcast will speak to you. Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb, an iHeartPodcast.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com