May 27, 2026 • 59 mins
This week on In Service Of singer/actress Jena Malone joins host Steve Baltin. With a stunning new album, 'Flowers For Men,' and a hit Netflix series, 'The Boroughs,' arriving in May, Malone has a ton to talk about. And this hour-long conversation does not disappoint!
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hey, it's Steve Balton and welcome to in Service Side.
And this week I am joined by Jenna Alone, the
wonderful actress, singer, like wonderful person. I've known Jenna since
she was sixteen years old and I cannot be more
thrilled as a friend to see her right now with
(00:29):
a highly anticipated new Netflix show of the Burrows, a
brand new album Flowers for Men. Personally, she's engaged with
a kid. I mean, she's a creative and personal peek
and it leads to a wonderful conversation. You know, it's
so nice to talk to an optimist in these messed
(00:49):
up times. And Jenna and I talk about PJ. Harvey, poetry,
her album, songwriting, con SERTs, the Burroughs, everything. So I
hope you enjoyed this interview as much as I did
doing it great to see Jenna so happy and very deserved.
(01:25):
So the reason I want to talk about the gardening,
and by the way, thanks for being here, is uh
talking with Vanessa Carleton. You know about the fact that,
like now, you know, at one point she was like
this huge pop singer with a thousand miles and all this.
She didn't guess it at Coachella, and then she's like,
I can't wait to go home and garden, and she
(01:47):
was talking about how important that is to her and
to her sanity, but also to the creativity. Since it's
the same for you.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, I mean, I think potentially it's the same for me,
and then you can replace me with every human you know.
I think it's really lovely to get to work in
the soil. It's how it's where we all came from,
it's where we all return to. It's proven time and
time again to be you know, time in the forest,
(02:22):
time amongst those sort of micreole like microbe my sillial
forms is wildly beneficial to our health. I think everyone
needs it, you know. I think what's hard is that
we as artists, we're creating so much invisible work, right
It's like invisible labor where it's like songs that live
(02:44):
in our head, paint ideas and concepts and words, and
we're channeling and we're birthing and we're birthing, and it's
so nice to be in a yard, in a garden
where you see what the world. You want to dig
a hole, dig a hole, you know, I feel like
there's nothing more humbling than digging a hole to plant tree.
(03:07):
That is the number one activity that I think everyone
should do, dig a three feet hole. It's so hard,
it's so hard, it's such hard work, and you're there,
your sweat is dripping, and you realize that this is
something that potentially every single human on the planet has
ever done. Like, we'll never get away from digging holes. Right,
there's things that make it a tiny bit easier. But
(03:31):
I love it. I feel like it's almost it's science
fiction in a way. I feel like the things that
are so old, that connect me so deeply to my
genes and my ancestors are also something that I feel
like is going to lead me to a better future.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
You know what's so interesting you say that, though, because
I mean, I've talked to so many people about the
idea of songwriting being channeling, and they have their their
you know, triggers, like to get the antenna out to
get the reception open. Like Chris Cornell's all me, it
was water. Other people told me it's running. Other people
told me it's just nature. So you know, I mean,
(04:07):
you know, it does make sense that like being outdoors
and doing the physical labor. Probably I imagine does trigger
a fair amount of ideas.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, I mean, whether it triggers ideas or not, it
triggers a sense of euphoria, you know, and that in
itself is good enough. Like it doesn't you don't have
to create from that. You don't have to get great
ideas from it. It just feels like you've accomplished something
with your own two hands, you know, which. I just
(04:37):
feel like in this digital age, it's hard to feel
like I've accomplished anything. You know. It's like, yeah, I
just did ten emails, but it's like invisible, you know,
like what is it? I can't hold that, I can't
look at it, I can't smell it. You know, what
are your triggers for ideas when you're writing?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I mean for me, it's easy because I've done it
so long. It's like, you know, it's easy to sit
down and just do it creatively. It's a different story
than you know, like sitting down and I mean, I
mean creatively, I don't necessarily have triggers. It's just kind
of you know, stuff that comes you know. I mean,
but again, for you, it's like it's funny that you
(05:20):
say it's something that you don't necessarily feel like you've
accomplished something. You literally just in the last month put
out a fucking TV show and an album, and you're like,
oh wait, what if I I mean, you know, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I know what they're invisible, right, I can't like pick
up a TV show and like show it to my son,
you know, like a vinyl.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Don't show it to your son.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I can You're absolutely right. I'm about to go see
my in laws this weekend and I absolutely can't pick
up the vinyl. And that's why I love physical media. No,
I mean, I do feel like I'm you know, I
don't need to accomplish anything more on this planet, you know,
like I feel wildly accomplished. I'm very happy. I feel like,
if anything, I want to accomplish less and learn more
(06:04):
or grow more. You know, I don't know if there's
like a way to do that. I don't think I
need to output anything ever. Again. I think that output
in this cat like this dying capitalist age is such
an out of date way of thinking that we have
to produce, we have to create product, we have to
(06:26):
have something that we're searching for, and you know, I
just I feel like that's it's never I bake a
cake and I'm like, wow, I did that, Because you
start it nothing, you find the ingredients, you pull them together,
and you know it's eaten, it's shared. It's simple. It's
just so hard with music. I just feel like it's
(06:47):
become such a there's so many components. I think what's
funny for me is that my favorite joy in music
is just the making of it. You know, it's just
the writing, the making, and then the sharing, like all
of the other stuff is just so much. I could
just share with just my friends, you know, just like
(07:08):
send a song here, send a song there. I mean,
I sort of I crave the old school days of
just like MySpace, you know, when you could just put
up a couple songs you know and like and people
get to discover things. I don't know, I just feel
like it's such a crazy Maybe I'm like jaded, but
I just feel like there's so many steps now and
(07:28):
it all costs so much money, and it's just like,
I don't know, I don't know how to do music.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
You know, one of the game and it knows how
to do music right now. But that that's interesting. When
you do a show like the Burroughs because I mean,
you want to talk about a fucking production. I mean,
it's a great show, but I mean when you're getting
involved with Netflix with the Duppler brothers, I mean that's
interesting because I mean that is like, you know, that's
like music Times. You know, that's like a tale. I've
(07:55):
swept out in Times one hundred.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I know, and as I'm saying that, I realize that,
but I'm also just a session musician on that. You know.
It's so different like coming in just as an actor,
Like I'm not creating the series. I'm not holding it
on my back. I'm not mounting it. I'm not creating
the worlds. I'm coming in very specifically to play my part.
(08:18):
You know. It's very different than writing and producing, you know,
engineering a record, Like I feel like that's that's like
a baby, that's like a you're in it for, you know,
however many years it takes, and it's kind of all
of all on your back. Whereas the Burroughs, I feel like,
you know, I did my work and then I haven't
(08:39):
really done anything since you know, we we we finished
shooting in twenty twenty five, you know, but the showrunners
have they've been editing and working and working and toiling
and sweating, and you know, so it's easier for me
to be It's easy. I think it's easy to be
(09:00):
an actor in a lot of ways. You know, there's less,
there's so much, there's not a lot on your.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Back.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
It's like being a session musician. You come in, you
do your best, your thoroughbred. You know, you get hired
to do hit these notes. You're like, I know how
to hit that note. You get paid well, and then
you're out, you know, and then the poor, I mean
not the poor, the wild. You know, people engineering and
producing it are like, you know, days and hours.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
While saying, though, do you feel like it's you say
when you say it's easy to be an actor, do
you feel like it's also because you've done it since
you were like eight years old?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Of course, of course. You know, if I if I
was starting to do race car driving, I would be like,
this is the hardest thing I've ever done in my
entire life. But if I had been doing it for
you know, thirty years, I would be like, I can
do it in my sleep. You know, yeah, I but
you know, I yeah, I think it was a lot
(09:59):
harder obviously when I was younger, because I was learning.
I don't know if it's ever been hard though, you know,
like I don't know if that's the word I would
give it. It's you know, it's it's I mean, I
guess it is hard work. It's not. It is you know,
strenuous and grueling and there's long hours, and but I
(10:22):
don't know, I don't think that. I don't think of
it as hard. I think of as whole digging as hard, right,
Like I go out and dig a hole. That's way
more work I work out in my garden, and or
like trying to just do landscaping where I'm just cleaning
up leaves, and you know, that's work for me, you know.
I feel like acting is such a different kind of channeling, collaborating, communicating,
(10:45):
team building. It feels like a different kind of work.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I guess not all that makes sense, but it's interesting
to me because it's like I think about, like, you know,
for example, that when you did a movie like Fast
After Align that you're so young, I mean, that would
be so great. Like it's funny. I remember doing a
Rolling Stone cover story with the people of gamed with Thrones,
and they were like that show fucked them up because
(11:11):
it was so I as a fan, I hated that
fucking show because to me, it was so intuitous. But
you know, to each their own, but it definitely it
was like I remember them telling me that they would
all go drink after every episode. You know. But when
you show like Past Jack Carolina, which such a brutal film,
but at the same time you're so young, did you
(11:32):
even understand how brutal that was?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, I mean acting can be brutal. You have to.
It's it's like anything else. It's like it's like going
to the gym and reaching straight for like a three
hundred pound deadlift. You know, it's just like you're gonna
hurt yourself. You're gonna that's that's like you're setting yourself
up for a disaster. So even if you know you
have to hit something really hard, you have to form
(12:00):
you can't. I don't know. I think I just learned
at a very young age not to take everything home
with me, you know. I think that there was a
way to sort of separate. This is the make believe
even though somatically it's in my body. Even though you know,
when you're sad, even if it's for acting. Your body
still thinks you're sad. You know, you're still processing trauma
(12:22):
as trauma, you know, So there is I mean there's
I think you just get better and better at learning
how to set those things down. And I think that
for whatever reason, Bastard was hard. But I knew it
was going to be hard.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
You know.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I wasn't walking in thinking I'm just going to jump
rope like I knew. I was going into the gym
to do three hundred pounds deadlift like it was really
serious work, you know. And I knew that at the
end of the day, I didn't have to bring that
home with me. That film and onset was the place
that I picked up the character. I dove deep and
(12:59):
got wild, and then I would take my clothes off
and I can just be a kid, you know, And
I would sort of have meltdowns and get into the
bath and you know, and I don't know, I think
that there's a way to separate it. But as you're
saying about Lord Game of Thrones and how everyone had
to go drinking after, that's the culture of filmmaking. I mean,
(13:20):
drinking is the culture of filmmaking, and as a recently
kind of sober human. I stopped drinking like two years ago,
and then it just kind of stuck and I haven't
really started again. It's that's the culture. That's how people commiserate.
You know, you do a day of work and say
(13:41):
it's the hardest day of your life. They all get
together and drink and say, you do a day of
work and the most boring day of your life. That's
equally hard. You know. There's also something really mind melting
about doing nothing all day, not being of service, not
being utilized, sitting around and and I think also a
(14:02):
lot of this is pre cell phone culture, because now
I think on sets actors are just so deeply on
their phones that they can't even tell if they haven't
been working all day, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Well, I mean again, it's also like that goes back
to what you were saying about music. I mean, you're
spending so much time promoting that, you know, it's like
you're never off from the idea there is no downtime anymore.
I mean I remember someone like Lindsay Buckingham telling me
that they could have never made rumors during the social
media age, and he's like, it would have been just
(14:35):
way too much scrutiny pressure. I mean it like it's
changed the art. It's changed all arts so much, you know.
So it's like it's funny when you were saying about,
you know, you missing the MySpace days. I remember, like
I had Justin Timberlake, who you know, has always been
cool to meet, whatever you think of him, and he
interviewed with a couple of my Grammy Camp students. And
(14:57):
what was really interesting about it was he said this,
I remember so much. He's like, I make music all
the time. He's like, I only put it out when
I have something to say. He's like, because it's so
exhausting promoted.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah, it is, because it's a different muscle, you know.
And we're all built with certain capacities. And I don't
think a human has a massive capacity to talk about
themselves again and again and again and again and again,
(15:32):
you know, Like I just, I just I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I will tell you that's definitely not true. Man. Well
but I'm not saying it's twenty four hours a day.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I know, but that's I think it's a muscle that
you develop. I don't I don't think you know, kids
like they'll talk about the stars, they'll talk about wild flowers.
They'll talk about everything you ask them about themselveslves and
instantly they're veer off into other subjects. What they love,
what this moon, what the moon is. It's not a
(16:00):
natural thing to be like, I think this about all
of these different subjects, you know, and particularly when you're
asked the same questions again and again and again, there's
something that's like, it's so surreal, you know, it's like
it's a very strange repetition that I don't think a
lot of people have the capacity to do and make
it easy, right. I think that's why it's very taxing.
(16:22):
It's a very taxing muscle.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Well, what's funny is you know we were talking about
before we started reporting about the mind saving story I did.
And what's interesting is like I love doing these stories
because I did one on culture and did one of
the doors. Because people are so much happier to talk
about being fans than they are about themselves, like as
an artist. Like, for example, when I did the culture
and story cue tip from a tribgalth clast, he's like,
(16:57):
you know, I don't talk about myself, but he's like,
I'll talk about culture right for half an hour, So
as a fan. What artists would you most love to
talk about just as a fan?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Oh? What a good question. I don't know. I think
probably the people that sort of gave me my roots,
you know, like the musicians that sort of were the
first seeds that I swallowed, right, that sort of became
(17:29):
my inner world, inner garden, that sort of set the
whole tone. I mean, Nina Simone and PJ. Harvey. I
mean PJ Harvey. For me, I feel like people just
don't talk about her enough in the sense of like
what she built, not only as a woman, but just
as an artist. At that time, I feel like she
(17:51):
was making such cinematic, brilliant sounds, soundscapes and songs.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
And I think, no, okay, because I have interview you
can Jay a couple of times, and the first time
was hilarious. She's like, have you ever talked to someone
who's very deliberate? Right? You know, when you talk to
someone who just is like everything they say is so thought.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Out mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
But with her, you know how when you're talking to
someone and it's on the phone and they're like saying
M or they'll pause or whatever, or they'll say that
to indicate a pause. She hung up on me three
times because she doesn't like pause. She like just stops
to think, and I'm just wait, what did I say?
(18:41):
But absolutely brilliant. I mean, she's such an underrated artist
and I love for me as an English major, I
love her obsession with poetry.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, her writing is incredible. I feel like I just
not not only I feel like I love the songs
and I love the writing and then going back to
just the words is such a satisfying thing.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
You know what's interesting. I mean, on this record, you
did do one cover angel for Montgomery, which is funny
because you know, it's like, I know that song more
from Bonnie Ray because I know Bonnie. I've interviewed several times,
but I never really the way that you enunciated it.
There was the one line that suck out, and it's like,
how do you, you know, go to work? How do
(19:21):
you get up in the morning, go to work all
day and at the end of the day have nothing
to say? And I'm just that line just hit me
so hard, the way that you delivered. And so I
mean the obvious question, though I hate to do obvious.
What was it about that song of all songs that
you chose to cover why that one?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Well you asked, You asked me about like you know,
fangirl moments and you know musicians. And I think that
I didn't even know who wrote that song when I
was younger, but I remember listening to it and someone saying, oh,
a guy wrote that, and that was like when I
was tiny, right, I had no idea who John Prime was.
It wasn't like on my radar, but I remember thinking, God,
(20:00):
how crazy that a guy wrote this song about this woman? Right,
And I think it was the first time that it
was like pre listening to Tom Waits, pre listening to
people that were really gender bending and writing from non
traditional narratives in songwriting. And so I feel like Angel
from Montgomery was the first time that I saw permission
(20:24):
in the world to be a non traditional songwriter, you know,
of like you can write from any point of view
that you want, not just the point of view that
you have. And I think I love I just I don't.
I don't realize. I didn't realize when I was younger
how important that was for my writing, But looking back,
that song is so important just to me in the
(20:48):
sense of it really allowed myself permission to write whatever
the hell I wanted, you know, and I and and
And It's funny because it's such a traditional song. It's
like a you know, folk classic, and when Bonnie sings it,
you feel like she owns it. It's her song. Of
course she you know. But I remember listening to Bonnie
(21:10):
Rate's version and my mom being like, yeah, a guy
wrote this song, and I just it just blew my mind.
It blew my mind. I love when people give make
room for permission in the world. Right you can be anything,
you can embody, you can make different choices, and I
think as a young person, the more you are influenced
(21:32):
by those people that are out there defining permission and
opening doors, the better, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
So that's really interesting because then when you think about
it's funny. I mean, I would have never noticed this,
but you know, obviously then if it's very well with
this record, where you know, you kind of not necessarily
ben genders as much, but it's like, definitely what was
interesting about this record is the idea we have flowers
(22:01):
for men and being a little more maybe sympathetic to
other people who have been at this point in time
and rightly said to the fact that you know, men
as a whole are like kind of fucked at this point.
And I'll me fucked in the sense of like being
treated unfairly, in the sense of being assholes. Like I
(22:21):
was on Instagram last night and watching this pastor who
was saying, like this pastor out of North Carolina who
was saying, oh, if you know you get raped in
your dress like that, and I'm on the jury, you're
going free, and it's just like this dude should just
be clubbed to death.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, it's such an out of date point of view,
you know, like I feel like that point of view
existed in a certain time when we didn't have.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
He was never okay. But it's interesting that you know,
that's why again for me who has a lot of
female friends, you know, like you understand when there's like
so much rage at this point.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, well, yeah, of course. I mean it's like you said,
you know, matterre fucked. And then the best thing about
the word fuck is that it has a multi purpose,
multidimensional meaning. Is that in that space of being fucked,
it's wildly fertile. It's wildly fertile for regrowth, right in
(23:20):
that space where everything comes into question and you're in
this sort of divine cognitive dissonance where not all of
your beliefs are ringing true anymore. Not all of the
things that you thought were values and importance to you
are no longer maybe ringing true to society. That's a
(23:40):
reinvestigation time, that's a rebirth moment. I mean, that's like
the most fertile space any human can go through. It's
very hard to get to the totally fucked sometimes, you know,
it's hard to make giant changes when you're doing great,
when everything's on your side, you know, when the sun
(24:03):
is shining and you have a care in the world.
I think that there's a space where men are being
really called in right now and not out. You know,
there's been a lot that have been on men's shoulders
for centuries where they've been called outward. And this is
a great calling in. You know, this is a recollaboration,
and I think that I can't help but see it
(24:25):
as a positive thing, you know. But I'm also raising
a sun, so I'm like moderately biased, you know. I'm
trying to think about how to open the world and
language about the world in a way that feels inviting.
Even though it's so wildly fucked. You know.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Interesting, you know, you're also raising a sun. You also
are that way you said your in laws. Are you
married yet or still engaged?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Engaged?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Right, so it's like you're also at a place where
you're very happy personally in love. So it's probably maybe
like you know, it's it's the ma grow micro I mean,
the world's fucked, but at least you know, for you,
you know, you're in a very good place personally, so
it probably makes it easier to see the positive, whereas
for other people it's like I have another friend to
(25:15):
have a more difficult time seeing the positive. Let's put
it that way.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
I understand. I think I'm also wildly an optimist. I
think even before I was in this space of being
in love, I was so wildly hungry for where the
positivity was within male relations and you know, sort of
the divine masculine. I think I'm always it's you know, listen,
(25:43):
I we can talk about how you know, like horrible
it is. I just I just think that at this
point in the world, it's not really going to move
us forward, you know, I would much rather talk about
how we want to, like, how we want to grow
in it. You know, how we want to make space
for our growth, how we want to RecA calibrate, how
(26:05):
we want to you know, start small. It's not big picture.
It's not like a giant. I'm going to change the world,
But I want to change my backyard. I want to
change my habits. I want to change how I show
up with my friends. I want to change how I
show up in my neighborhood. You know, I think those
questions are way more important than who do I want
to be in the world, what career do I want?
(26:26):
You know, I think how do I show up for myself?
And how do I show up for my neighborhood are
two of the most radical things that anyone can ask
themselves in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Interesting do you know the band of the British band the
the No Okay? So, one of the greatest albums ever
made is The Dusk and it's such what it came
out in ninety two. It's lyrically one of the best
albums ever made. But the last song that I asked
the refrain of if you can't change the world, change yourself,
(26:58):
and it's always been it's such a powerful album. But
that's interesting. So for you, right, let's tay get back
to music. When you think of optimism, what has been
the music and the artists that have been optimistic for
you over the years.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Oh gosh, it's so funny. I feel like I used
to have such a I was kind of like against,
not against, but I had a hard time. I never
really liked pop music in a certain way. I was
very like moody and serious, and I liked what I liked,
and I was like, you know, Neil Young, Tom Waits, Peter,
you know, like all of these things that I liked
(27:32):
as a teenager, and you know what would be interested
in experimenting and going record diving and you know, world
music and getting into different kinds of genres. But mostly
I kind of had a lane. And then I started
discovering dance in the sense of dealing with trauma. Like
(27:52):
I was getting really sad and upset in my life,
and I feel like it was the first time in
my late twenties I was kind of feeling like depression
in a certain way. And I remember putting the Lord
record on and and I know that's there's like a
melancholy to it, but it's like melancholy pop in a
(28:14):
lot of ways, and I just was like, oh, I
love this. I love this so much, and I felt
like it gave me this form of like nostalgic, melancholy
optimism that really just blew my mind. And then I
started listening to pop music all the time. I'm like
a complete swifty. I love Bieber, you know, like I'm
(28:37):
constantly looking for new you know, like music that's just
going to make me move and dance in a certain way.
And so I do. I find optimism in music that
makes you want to dance because I think that through dance,
it's such a healing exercise.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
I think that so so much of what we carry
in this world can be shooken out by a really
good dance, just like a shaking your ass. You know,
it's just a theory, it's a it's a guess.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
But now that's fair so obvious question. First of all,
go into the Holly humber Stone. That new album is
fucking amazing and it's really smart, literate pop music. I
also agree with you. I'm Lauren, I love her. But
for you, then, okay, what are the two or three
favorite songs that just make you move the most? Like
(29:32):
I always go back to a song like I think
about Earthlin New Fire September. I mean that's just a
perfect pop song.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Mm hmm. Okay, So Natalie Prass makes a song called
The Fire, which I love and I dance to all
the time. There's a new song by meek me a
okay or em me e e K Yeah, m e
e K called Fabulous, which I me and mysel dance
(30:00):
to all the effing time. And then gosh that. I mean,
there's so many songs that I love. I love I'm
kind of a melancholy pop girl. It's so funny, like
that's like kind of my lane. I also love Oh Bahamas.
I love Bahamas. I love that song Lost in the Light.
(30:22):
I could just like float dance to that song all
day long.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
I don't know why. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Interesting, So I mean for you, was it okay? So
it was lore of the kind of ZMAI helped you
discover that thing of like the dancing. But I mean
it's funny. Was it something like when you were a kid?
Were you like that or was it just something that
like how did you kind of discover that? Like that's
interesting to me, Like, well, was it that kind you
made you discover the physical activity of doing it, like you.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Know what it was it was being on long ass
press tours. When I was doing the Hunger Games, I
realized that I was going to lose my fucking mind
by sitting in a room all day. And I was like,
I don't want to become an alcoholic, right, I don't
want to become like depressed and sad and angry like
everyone else, and so like, I'm gonna, like, as the
(31:27):
interview finishes, I'm going to be like, thank you very much,
and then I'm gonna and I just brought around my
portable speaker and I would press play and I would
dance my ass off for the one to two minutes
as the journalists changed changed out, and it would literally
just make me feel so happy. It became like a
press tour practice. And I mean, of course everyone dances.
(31:51):
I would, you know, dance at a bar. And I
did love dancing. But I didn't realize how healing it
was and how much of like a mental health practice
it was until I did the Hunger Games press tour.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
It's so funny. I'm sure you know John c Riley
or probably been. Yeah, it's funny. I interviewed him once
for Venice magazine and he actually made a skow hiking
and he's like, that's how I test the writers. He's like,
I see if you can keep up with me. So
we did a hike in Griffith's Park. Now I would
have loved you have seen. Did you ever have writers
dance with you on the press tour or was it
(32:25):
always in between?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Some people did, some people did, but I think it
was always like it was a little awkward, you know,
it was a little but some people were into it.
I don't know. I mean, I don't really care dance
or not, you know what I mean. Everyone should be
dancing for themselves. You know, you don't need to be
dancing for anyone else. Just do it for yourself, you know,
like eyes closed. I love the idea. You know, what
I've never been to is a silent disco where everyone
(32:50):
has the headphones.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
I've done that at Bottom of Rock.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
You have. Yeah, I hear of it all the time.
I know there was like things happening in the twenty
you know, pandemic, But I'm kind of into these ideas
of like silent shows, Like I really wanted. I've been
really trying to do. I was trying to lift this
like immersive theater piece off the ground last year, but
I had to kind of pick a direction. I was like, Okay,
I'm just gonna put out my album first because I
(33:16):
didn't have enough money or funding to put out both.
But I really love the idea of like a whole
audience on headphones. You know, I think it's so in
like an outdoor public space. I just feel like it
feels really discombobulating an intimate in such a cool way,
you know.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
So obvious question. You know, this is like it's a
wonderful record, but it's kind of more introspective, you know,
in the sense of like it's not really a physical record.
You know, so do you see yourself making a melch record?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
And some point I hope one d You know. What's
so funny is I feel like every single time I
I'm like, oh, I'm writing a song, I always want
to write that, right, I'm always like, I'm gonna do it.
This is my dance song. This, I'm gonna do it,
this is the one, and it just never maybe they
dance like some of them are dancing for me, but
I haven't. I don't know. She hasn't like unleashed herself
(34:13):
and my body yet, you know, it's just it hasn't.
Maybe maybe next record, you know, all.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Right, so what's the one song you wish you had written? Then? Why?
And maybe it's a song.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Ortes Neil Young Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Definitely doesn't strike me as a dance song. It's an
amazing song, but I mean, why that one there's.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
But there's dance elements. I mean, the thing is is
like a dance song doesn't have to be like you
know where it's like well like you can kind of
just get wild as long as there's any movement as
there's like narrative pulse. I just remember hearing that song
and there's like, you know, the six minute intro. I
just love when songs have like crazy unexpected turns. Like
(34:58):
my son the other day, he's obsessed now with Michael Jackson,
which I'm so excited about. He's been very like kind
of anti older music, a little bit very like Eminem Kendrick,
like future forward thinking, and now he's obsessed with Michael Jackson,
and I'm you know, it's it's a great place to
get back into motown and some other really cool stuff.
But he's like, you know, the one thing I don't
(35:19):
like about Michael Jackson, which I love, I'm kind of
I'm not throwing them under the bus, but it's it's
a cool perspective. He's like, he always has such long intros,
and I was thinking about it, and I was like, gosh,
you know, I mean, I know that he wasn't the first,
but it feels like he was potentially one of the
first in popular music to create such narrative based intros
(35:43):
that really hit in the pop world. And I just
I so admire that. I love songs that have an entrance,
you know, it's like they build a garden gate. You
have to duck your head and all of a sudden
you're in reverence and you're listening in a way that
you wouldn't have been listening prior. I love that, and
I think Cortes, I just I find it to be
(36:05):
such an interesting I love songs about history, exploring point
of views of people that are no longer living. I
love trying to sort of take on the lens of yeah,
just like former generations or mythical figures, historical figures and
kind of reimagining their I find them really fascinating. It's
(36:27):
like I also love books like guns, Germs and Steel
or like Sapiens, you know, like I love that, Like
I don't know whatever it's called. It's just sort of
the reimagining of history I think is really really cool. Impotent.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Okay, wait, so i'll your son.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
That he's going to be ten in like three days.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Oh wow, okay, So have you taken into concerts? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
His first concert was Kendrick Lamar.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
He loves it. I mean, he loved it. And he
also is very much like me. I'm not the vegest
concert human, which you know, that's okay. Everyone. People can
have their opinions about that. He's like, thank you for
taking me. We don't have to go again. He was like,
I'm not I don't love concerts, you know. I was like,
(37:14):
that's okay. You don't have to love concerts right now.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
You know.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
We went to Chapelone, which was really fun, but it's
like it's hard for kids to see. It's just you know,
they're not built for kids. It's just the artists go
on so late. Yeah. I don't know. He's not that into.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Concerts, that's right. So for me though, as someone who's
been in the like literally five thousand shows. I'm always
fascinated with this. Why are you not that big a
concert person? What is it?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
They hate the sound quality? I cannot stay I can't
hear a lyric, I can't hear a word. I love tiny,
little shows, like living room shows, small venues, people gathered
around a piano. I love walking down the subway and
someone playing something. I love unexpected impromptu shows. I hate
(38:06):
buying a ticket going to a bar that I'm like,
I'm going to see this person, and then you get
there and everyone's talking every it's hard to hear. I
just I don't love it. I've never loved them. It's
so weird, but I I mean, you know, I just.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Know, and I have other friends who don't love them.
But I mean to me, like you said, you know
who spent probably more than that. I feel like sometimes
so I swear, I spent my half my life at shows,
So I understand.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
So some people so lifting, you know, and I love that,
And I feel like that's so cool that people love
love love them. I'm just like a weird what are
the no, you're not?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
And I know other people who don't either. What's what
other shows what I've always found THO was the best
shows are the ones that could take you out of
your head, Like you there and there's like you're not
distracted by anything, and that so like what makes a
great joke. So if we're you, what have been those shows? Now?
I'm curious where you see something that's just like, even
if there are people talking, even the crowd's annoying, even
(39:08):
there are people's feeling drinks on the internet or what
it is, you're still having just a great time.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
I mean, I just don't know if I've had that experience.
I've had a few jazz performances. I saw Eric Lewis
twice in New York and that was really electric. That
felt I love when people sit down at shows. It
was a small venue. He's an improvisational jazz artist, and
I just felt like, I like, it felt like an
(39:36):
open channeling from the universe. It was really cool. I
really loved that show. I love jazz shows. I love
the reverence that a jazz audience has. I love the
people like all crowded and they're quiet, and they want
to sit and they want to pay attention. I just
feel like like what we've learned in this new paradigm
(39:56):
that we're in with quantum theories that like, attention is everything.
Right if you if you look at a cell, it
behaves differently than not looking at it. To be seen
is not just to be seen, but to be seen
is to be alive. And so attention is more than currency.
It's it's a bloodline, it's it's it's it's like, it's
(40:19):
it's life. It's a life force. And so when people
are paying attention in a room, and I find that
jazz tends to demand that or inspire that more, I
feel like that's really electric. But like everyone's just fucking off,
you know, even hip hop. It's like it's just like
you can't. I don't know, it doesn't feel like people
are paying attention.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Depends on the show. Have you ever heard of a
nargist Namesmara Pendres say it again, Samora Pinder Hughes No.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
I don't know that.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
He's a jazz guy who became a friend. But it's funny.
He did this show built around grief a couple of
years ago. I remember seeing it with like a sage
and literally we're both in tears. It's just like one
of the most amazing things you've ever seen and some more.
I highly highly highly recommend it. He's just like the
most brilliant guy and super cool and super interesting and
(41:12):
so definitely in that vein, you know. But it's funny,
I agree. So for you then, as someone who makes
music and knows that at points you probably will put
on shows, what would you like to do? Then? You
know it's funny? For example, like I became friends with
Blue Note because I did the La Time Story on them,
you know, And even though like your music is in
traditional jazz, would you see yourself wanting to play something
(41:36):
more in that vein which is a sit down, you
know space.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Maybe, I mean, nothing's off the table, you know. I
think what I developed with the band the Shoe that
I was doing for a while, that's all. Yeah, those
are my favorite kind of shows I love. I love
going and playing on a street corner and no one
right as I call playing for the birds, and you're
just sort of like maybe if someone walks by and
(42:06):
stops for ten minutes. I love playing a show in
a living room where you invite twenty people and everyone's
seated and paying attention. I love doing impromptu shows and girls'
bathrooms where all of a sudden you have a very
intimate audience for three people every four minutes. I love
(42:27):
spontaneity and I love improvisation, and I find that those
two things just don't sit well with traditional venues. You know,
you really have to kind of interject it with a
lot to be able to bring those things to life.
And so for me, my favorite venue is the one
that no one's ever played out before, you know, the
(42:49):
one that doesn't have you know, that's like some weird
intersection or under a freeway pass or in someone's you know,
maybe there's like some building in a park that happens
to have something, or you know. I love discovering music.
I love just walking down the street and being like,
(43:11):
oh is someone playing saxophone? You know, like just being
like and then following your instincts. I love the hunter
gatherer of it, you know. I love kind of like
a scavenger hunt in some ways where they're just like,
you don't know where someone's playing, and you have to
kind of discover it and find it for yourself. I
find that that feels really rewarding. But I don't know,
(43:32):
of course, like what I play, like a really cool
sit down venue. Sure, of course, I'm just not as
drawn to that. I don't know, I just I'm not
I'm not trying to make money with live shows, and
I'm also I don't feel any need to go out
there and like play a hundred shows and make sure
the whole world hears me. I kind of just want
(43:55):
to really keep getting into like a creative development in
doing live shows where it's really risky. I love risk.
I love failing. I love trying things that I've never
done and it being like the audience being like whoa,
Like what is she doing?
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Like is that?
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
You know? All right? So for you two questions, let's
favorite intersection in La to play?
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Okay, So I haven't played in La in a long time.
I've done a few just like walking street performances with
I guess since the pandemic. I found a venue, an
outdoor venue that I really love that's down by the
La River. I think that I'm going to form I'm
gonna form like maybe four or five shows around the
(44:57):
La River because there's like four or five places that
I really really love. But yeah, I don't know. My
favorite thing to do is just get in my car
and drive and kind of location scout, you know, and
like pull over and I have my little carry amp,
so sometimes I'll be able to just like test acoustics
in certain places and just sort of see what the
(45:19):
vibe is. But yeah, I'm still location scouting, so we'll see.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
It's funny the way you're describing is like, again, as
someone who lived in New York a couple of times,
it feels more like a city thing. So for you, like,
have you done it in places like New York and
London and places like that where they have traditional buskers.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yeah, I mean it's funny that this just doing it
on a street corner is in like a big city
is not that exciting to me. Again because it's a
there's already a lot of other people doing that, you know,
and I feel like people just walk by that without
ever looking. So I'm trying to find ways to kind
of have an audience member engage with the music in
(46:01):
a way that really like breaks their brain a little bit,
you know. And so I'm trying to find and I
don't a lot of people don't play street shows in
LA It's just not it doesn't happen. There's not a
lot of like street musicians, and so I think that it's.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Easier to play topic.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Well that's fine for some people like me, which is
a weirdo. But but I think in New York I
was more drawn to playing rooftops and elevators and more intimate,
like kind of indoor spaces that felt like you can
control the sound a little bit more, but it still
felt spontaneous and personal, you know.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
All right, So for you, then, what would be like
the idea of a I need to play in La
like not necessarily venue, but like plays.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
The Glendale Hollows. It's a part of the La River
that people are starting to perform at. Courtney Barnett just
played there a couple of weeks ago. It's a really
I want to form an immersive theater play there last year,
which I didn't, which is okay, Seed Planted will be
happening soon one day. Yeah. I love that place and
(47:13):
I love that I loved it and now people are
playing there, you know what I mean. Like, I just
think that it's like so cool to see that I
might not be the only person that's craving like it,
like off the cuff venues, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Yeah, it's funny. I remember seeing the Flaming Lips, and
I've known Wayne forever play like a sunrise show at
the cemetery, but not like that outdoor, you know, but
like the outdoor part of the cemetery now indoor. And
I mean that was just so fun, so fascinating. You know.
It's like, yeah, it was amazing. All right, So we'll
wrap up with a couple of minutes. But I mean,
(47:49):
you know, one, I want to go back to the
Burroughs for a second. It's funny because we're talking about that.
It's like interesting to me. I mean when you're like, okay, right,
when you're doing scenes with someone like an alp from
Melino and like you know Melina, I mean, I like
you talked about earlier in this learning, you know. And
I remember doing an interview with Bob King when he
(48:11):
was seventy one and he was just starting to play
the clarinet and asked him why He's like, because every
day you don't learn is the day wasted. And I
always love that quote. When you get to be around
great people in any field, it feeds your creativity no
matter what you're doing. So when you were doing a
show like this and you're working with you know him
(48:31):
and Alfrey Woodard and all that. I mean, obviously I've
always had to think for Jennifer recently, I think in
terms of like she's probably, to me has been the
best actress of this generation, you know. I mean I
remember seeing her on Broadway and stuff amazing. But why
so you've always been around great actors, but still you're like,
for you talk about that you know, kind of osmosis
(48:54):
and how you put that into creativity in all walks.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
I mean, getting to work with all ages is so
wildly important because the thing is is you you think
that sitting down and working with Geena Davis right for six,
(49:22):
five months or seven months, you're going to learn so much.
You're going to be like, oh, she's been in it
for a thousand years. You're just going to be like,
I'm learning every day, and you do. But here's the
difference is that if you think you're only going to
learn something from someone that's been on this planet for
a long time, then you're missing out on some really
(49:42):
interesting teachers. Because so so I had kids in the show,
really beautiful actors starting off early in their career, and
they also taught me things. You know, I think that
to be able to be hought by someone means that
(50:02):
you get to sort of look at them, listen to
them without bias, without any hunger for anything. So maybe,
you know, I felt like I was constantly being surprised
by the amount of like theater knowledge I was gaining
from all of my co co stars in the Burroughs
and Dirty Jokes, right, and film information of like working
(50:27):
with this director and you know, they've been doing it
for fifty years some of them, it's insane, it's so beautiful.
And then also getting to see them interact with the
kids and how the kids were adding spaces of you know,
investigation and curiosity from them, and so I just I
don't know, I I think my favorite thing about that
(50:50):
show was getting to see people in their seventies having
fully fledged experiences as characters. I find that a lot
of filmmaking, narrative storytelling tends to be wildly agist. Right,
the heroes always thirty five, you know, the sub characters
(51:12):
are either like ten years old or seventy, and you know,
no one there's really far and few between. And so
what I really loved about this was getting to see
seventy year olds having sex, having casual one night stands,
having seven year olds fighting monsters. You know, I felt
like there was just so many things that I was
(51:33):
excited to just getting to see them, just to witness,
you know, just to be like, good, this is good
for my amygdalo, This is good for my brain to
see more fully fledged characters and humans around me that
aren't just so acute. You know, I really loved that.
I thought that that was so fun. But yeah, I
(51:55):
love the cast. They're just the best. They're the best.
You know, we're all in a giant group chat with
each other. We just had the best time.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
So for you as a storyteller and your songwriting, talk
about how you then take that and like how that
inspires you. Because again, what I found is that, like
we talked about with the guarding, all creativity feeds into
each other. And so for you getting to like it's right.
I mean I remember interviewing Sarah Pauley, so I'm sure
you know, or a fan, I mean, fucking brilliant. And
(52:24):
you know, again, like when you see a film like
Away from Me, how the fuck does a fucking twenty
six year old make a film about fucking Aldheimer. So
that's that's that brilliant.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
Yeah. I mean they can though, because it's sort of
like all interest is love, right, right.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
So for you talk about then as a songwriter, how
you kind of absorb that and maybe you haven't put
it into stuff yet, but it's funny, were you filming
concurrent with making the record or were they done to Okay,
So when you go back and again with the idea
of writing being subconscious, are there things you hear on
this record that kind of surprised you a little bit?
(53:06):
And maybe you didn't notice, you know, because you're doing
this other thing, and then when you go back and
listen to it, you kind of hear it. And again
the idea of writing being subconscious. Like Adie the Frankly
told me, I asked her what the album was about,
She's like, I don't know, asked me twenty years m hmm.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
So I yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think
that there's a lot of there's a lot of like
my future self on this record, you know. I think
that there was a lot of me looking to the
future to look backwards to sort of see what I
would want to tell myself or another human. Yeah, and
(53:42):
maybe I had sort of the two were from what
I was experiencing on the Burrows. I think, if anything,
there was just a curiosity I think I'm and with
this record in particularly, I was really very humble and
curious about where it wanted to go. And it constantly
(54:03):
surprised me, you know of just like feeling like I
was pushing in this direction, but I also knew that
I had to be open and curious, and as we
led down that direction, it was kind of now becoming
something else. Like the song Set Your Sorrows Down. I
felt like that first beginning voice part was actually this
(54:26):
kind of spoken word poem that I had vocalized like
five years ago, six years ago, when I was still
in the throes of like early motherhood, and I'm just
so glad that I recorded it because it was a
freestyle and then it but it found its impact when
I was making this record. I listened to it and
(54:47):
I was like, oh, I know what this voice is.
This This is like this arc non gendered angel sort
of from the future looking back, being like, let me
show you what love is, let me show you how
to love your self, and it's way simpler than what
you think, you know, But yeah, I guess it was
just the curiosity. It was nice to be curious and
(55:09):
not really think that I had to achieve or land anywhere,
but rather just the expiration was enough.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
So are the songs that particularly surprise you. I think
one that jumped out to me. It's funny because I
listened a couple of times again today. I mean, obviously
I listened to it a while ago, but listening to
it again today's creating her name. And I love that
idea because it's like, as an artist, that's really the
most probably the most romantic thing you can say to someone,
is I want to create in your name.
Speaker 2 (55:36):
Mhmm, yeah, I mean as an artist, as a human.
I mean, it's what we do in marriage. It's sort
of what we do with babies. It's a very like
genetic coding, you know, like DNA mixing. And also it
is it's an artist to artist of like, you know,
really being like you inspire me. You're giving me these
(55:56):
new ideas, and under your name, I'm able to kind
of thrive in a different way. I love that. I
love that you saw that.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
Well. Yeah, So for you, what were the songs out
here the surprise you? Most?
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Disaster zones and Herman Park.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Okay, I when you go back, what do you look back?
What surprised you?
Speaker 2 (56:20):
I love when the drumas kick in and Herman Park.
I really think that it's so surprising, and it just
reminds me of like some you know, sometimes when I'm
listening to like a like a I don't know, like
like early Fiona Apple, or like even really past the
bolt Cutters. Uh. She always does such surprising beats and
(56:48):
rhythms in her records. I just find it so inspiring.
And getting to work with a producer that had had
a similar sense sencimental sense, you know, sensitivity were that
she just was happy to take really wild swings. And
I know that Herman Park was this very soft kind
(57:09):
of love story about you know, can you love me
at my worst? And I want to hold you in
your worst? And that's really where the sort of softness
of love is born. When she put those drums on
the later half of the song, I just died. I
mean I was just like so in love, and then
Disaster Zones kind of became this whole like I don't know,
(57:32):
it feels like when I enter into that, it's so
just different than anything I've been able to play with.
I just feel like it's like entering another planet, you know,
And I think that's so cool. It's so cool to
get to create something that really takes you out of
the world for a second.
Speaker 3 (57:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (57:50):
Absolutely, all right, we'll wrap up because we've been not
in an hour. But I do have to ask one
time weight song you would cover?
Speaker 2 (57:58):
Oh, I've covered many times. It was chocolate Jesus. I mean,
me and Lem's used to do it at our live
shows all the time.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
Why that one?
Speaker 2 (58:09):
I don't know. I love it. I love it and
it was just fun. It was like a fun one
for our show with what we did. There's a come
up to the house. What's that one? What's that one.
Speaker 1 (58:23):
Track coming up to the House?
Speaker 2 (58:26):
Yeah, I also love that one. I feel like I
wrote a similar song to that that was like called
come on up to the Farm that felt like a
I've never done it, I haven't finished it, but uh
it felt like a homage to that song. I mean,
I loved Tom Waite so much. I would cover the
early years. I would go back. I would I would
(58:47):
not only do that, but I would want to like
make a movie about it because I just feel like
he's so like him and Chet Baker, like those sort
of young masculine, you know, iconic like ramblers. Just I was,
I was, just I loved so much, you know, I
still love.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
I mean, you guys have like twenty lives, but every
one of them it is, I mean amazing.
Speaker 2 (59:15):
Yeah. And the new the new song that you just
put out me.
Speaker 1 (59:20):
Yeah, the one you did with Massive Attack. That's brilliant.
Speaker 2 (59:24):
Yeah, it's amazing, amazing.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
That we didn't talk about.
Speaker 2 (59:29):
Thank you, Steve. This was so fun.
Speaker 1 (59:32):
Yeah, I feel like we covered a lot of grounds,
so yes, I.
Speaker 2 (59:35):
Know, yeah, we always do.
Speaker 3 (59:36):
I feel like we always do.
Hey, it's Steve Balton and welcome to in Service Side.
And this week I am joined by Jenna Alone, the
wonderful actress, singer, like wonderful person. I've known Jenna since
she was sixteen years old and I cannot be more
thrilled as a friend to see her right now with
(00:29):
a highly anticipated new Netflix show of the Burrows, a
brand new album Flowers for Men. Personally, she's engaged with
a kid. I mean, she's a creative and personal peek
and it leads to a wonderful conversation. You know, it's
so nice to talk to an optimist in these messed
(00:49):
up times. And Jenna and I talk about PJ. Harvey, poetry,
her album, songwriting, con SERTs, the Burroughs, everything. So I
hope you enjoyed this interview as much as I did
doing it great to see Jenna so happy and very deserved.
(01:25):
So the reason I want to talk about the gardening,
and by the way, thanks for being here, is uh
talking with Vanessa Carleton. You know about the fact that,
like now, you know, at one point she was like
this huge pop singer with a thousand miles and all this.
She didn't guess it at Coachella, and then she's like,
I can't wait to go home and garden, and she
(01:47):
was talking about how important that is to her and
to her sanity, but also to the creativity. Since it's
the same for you.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, I mean, I think potentially it's the same for me,
and then you can replace me with every human you know.
I think it's really lovely to get to work in
the soil. It's how it's where we all came from,
it's where we all return to. It's proven time and
time again to be you know, time in the forest,
(02:22):
time amongst those sort of micreole like microbe my sillial
forms is wildly beneficial to our health. I think everyone
needs it, you know. I think what's hard is that
we as artists, we're creating so much invisible work, right
It's like invisible labor where it's like songs that live
(02:44):
in our head, paint ideas and concepts and words, and
we're channeling and we're birthing and we're birthing, and it's
so nice to be in a yard, in a garden
where you see what the world. You want to dig
a hole, dig a hole, you know, I feel like
there's nothing more humbling than digging a hole to plant tree.
(03:07):
That is the number one activity that I think everyone
should do, dig a three feet hole. It's so hard,
it's so hard, it's such hard work, and you're there,
your sweat is dripping, and you realize that this is
something that potentially every single human on the planet has
ever done. Like, we'll never get away from digging holes. Right,
there's things that make it a tiny bit easier. But
(03:31):
I love it. I feel like it's almost it's science
fiction in a way. I feel like the things that
are so old, that connect me so deeply to my
genes and my ancestors are also something that I feel
like is going to lead me to a better future.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
You know what's so interesting you say that, though, because
I mean, I've talked to so many people about the
idea of songwriting being channeling, and they have their their
you know, triggers, like to get the antenna out to
get the reception open. Like Chris Cornell's all me, it
was water. Other people told me it's running. Other people
told me it's just nature. So you know, I mean,
(04:07):
you know, it does make sense that like being outdoors
and doing the physical labor. Probably I imagine does trigger
a fair amount of ideas.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, I mean, whether it triggers ideas or not, it
triggers a sense of euphoria, you know, and that in
itself is good enough. Like it doesn't you don't have
to create from that. You don't have to get great
ideas from it. It just feels like you've accomplished something
with your own two hands, you know, which. I just
(04:37):
feel like in this digital age, it's hard to feel
like I've accomplished anything. You know. It's like, yeah, I
just did ten emails, but it's like invisible, you know,
like what is it? I can't hold that, I can't
look at it, I can't smell it. You know, what
are your triggers for ideas when you're writing?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I mean for me, it's easy because I've done it
so long. It's like, you know, it's easy to sit
down and just do it creatively. It's a different story
than you know, like sitting down and I mean, I
mean creatively, I don't necessarily have triggers. It's just kind
of you know, stuff that comes you know. I mean,
but again, for you, it's like it's funny that you
(05:20):
say it's something that you don't necessarily feel like you've
accomplished something. You literally just in the last month put
out a fucking TV show and an album, and you're like,
oh wait, what if I I mean, you know, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I know what they're invisible, right, I can't like pick
up a TV show and like show it to my son,
you know, like a vinyl.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Don't show it to your son.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I can You're absolutely right. I'm about to go see
my in laws this weekend and I absolutely can't pick
up the vinyl. And that's why I love physical media. No,
I mean, I do feel like I'm you know, I
don't need to accomplish anything more on this planet, you know,
like I feel wildly accomplished. I'm very happy. I feel like,
if anything, I want to accomplish less and learn more
(06:04):
or grow more. You know, I don't know if there's
like a way to do that. I don't think I
need to output anything ever. Again. I think that output
in this cat like this dying capitalist age is such
an out of date way of thinking that we have
to produce, we have to create product, we have to
(06:26):
have something that we're searching for, and you know, I
just I feel like that's it's never I bake a
cake and I'm like, wow, I did that, Because you
start it nothing, you find the ingredients, you pull them together,
and you know it's eaten, it's shared. It's simple. It's
just so hard with music. I just feel like it's
(06:47):
become such a there's so many components. I think what's
funny for me is that my favorite joy in music
is just the making of it. You know, it's just
the writing, the making, and then the sharing, like all
of the other stuff is just so much. I could
just share with just my friends, you know, just like
(07:08):
send a song here, send a song there. I mean,
I sort of I crave the old school days of
just like MySpace, you know, when you could just put
up a couple songs you know and like and people
get to discover things. I don't know, I just feel
like it's such a crazy Maybe I'm like jaded, but
I just feel like there's so many steps now and
(07:28):
it all costs so much money, and it's just like,
I don't know, I don't know how to do music.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
You know, one of the game and it knows how
to do music right now. But that that's interesting. When
you do a show like the Burroughs because I mean,
you want to talk about a fucking production. I mean,
it's a great show, but I mean when you're getting
involved with Netflix with the Duppler brothers, I mean that's
interesting because I mean that is like, you know, that's
like music Times. You know, that's like a tale. I've
(07:55):
swept out in Times one hundred.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I know, and as I'm saying that, I realize that,
but I'm also just a session musician on that. You know.
It's so different like coming in just as an actor,
Like I'm not creating the series. I'm not holding it
on my back. I'm not mounting it. I'm not creating
the worlds. I'm coming in very specifically to play my part.
(08:18):
You know. It's very different than writing and producing, you know,
engineering a record, Like I feel like that's that's like
a baby, that's like a you're in it for, you know,
however many years it takes, and it's kind of all
of all on your back. Whereas the Burroughs, I feel like,
you know, I did my work and then I haven't
(08:39):
really done anything since you know, we we we finished
shooting in twenty twenty five, you know, but the showrunners
have they've been editing and working and working and toiling
and sweating, and you know, so it's easier for me
to be It's easy. I think it's easy to be
(09:00):
an actor in a lot of ways. You know, there's less,
there's so much, there's not a lot on your.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Back.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
It's like being a session musician. You come in, you
do your best, your thoroughbred. You know, you get hired
to do hit these notes. You're like, I know how
to hit that note. You get paid well, and then
you're out, you know, and then the poor, I mean
not the poor, the wild. You know, people engineering and
producing it are like, you know, days and hours.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
While saying, though, do you feel like it's you say
when you say it's easy to be an actor, do
you feel like it's also because you've done it since
you were like eight years old?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Of course, of course. You know, if I if I
was starting to do race car driving, I would be like,
this is the hardest thing I've ever done in my
entire life. But if I had been doing it for
you know, thirty years, I would be like, I can
do it in my sleep. You know, yeah, I but
you know, I yeah, I think it was a lot
(09:59):
harder obviously when I was younger, because I was learning.
I don't know if it's ever been hard though, you know,
like I don't know if that's the word I would
give it. It's you know, it's it's I mean, I
guess it is hard work. It's not. It is you know,
strenuous and grueling and there's long hours, and but I
(10:22):
don't know, I don't think that. I don't think of
it as hard. I think of as whole digging as hard, right,
Like I go out and dig a hole. That's way
more work I work out in my garden, and or
like trying to just do landscaping where I'm just cleaning
up leaves, and you know, that's work for me, you know.
I feel like acting is such a different kind of channeling, collaborating, communicating,
(10:45):
team building. It feels like a different kind of work.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I guess not all that makes sense, but it's interesting
to me because it's like I think about, like, you know,
for example, that when you did a movie like Fast
After Align that you're so young, I mean, that would
be so great. Like it's funny. I remember doing a
Rolling Stone cover story with the people of gamed with Thrones,
and they were like that show fucked them up because
(11:11):
it was so I as a fan, I hated that
fucking show because to me, it was so intuitous. But
you know, to each their own, but it definitely it
was like I remember them telling me that they would
all go drink after every episode. You know. But when
you show like Past Jack Carolina, which such a brutal film,
but at the same time you're so young, did you
(11:32):
even understand how brutal that was?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, I mean acting can be brutal. You have to.
It's it's like anything else. It's like it's like going
to the gym and reaching straight for like a three
hundred pound deadlift. You know, it's just like you're gonna
hurt yourself. You're gonna that's that's like you're setting yourself
up for a disaster. So even if you know you
have to hit something really hard, you have to form
(12:00):
you can't. I don't know. I think I just learned
at a very young age not to take everything home
with me, you know. I think that there was a
way to sort of separate. This is the make believe
even though somatically it's in my body. Even though you know,
when you're sad, even if it's for acting. Your body
still thinks you're sad. You know, you're still processing trauma
(12:22):
as trauma, you know, So there is I mean there's
I think you just get better and better at learning
how to set those things down. And I think that
for whatever reason, Bastard was hard. But I knew it
was going to be hard.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
You know.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I wasn't walking in thinking I'm just going to jump
rope like I knew. I was going into the gym
to do three hundred pounds deadlift like it was really
serious work, you know. And I knew that at the
end of the day, I didn't have to bring that
home with me. That film and onset was the place
that I picked up the character. I dove deep and
(12:59):
got wild, and then I would take my clothes off
and I can just be a kid, you know, And
I would sort of have meltdowns and get into the
bath and you know, and I don't know, I think
that there's a way to separate it. But as you're
saying about Lord Game of Thrones and how everyone had
to go drinking after, that's the culture of filmmaking. I mean,
(13:20):
drinking is the culture of filmmaking, and as a recently
kind of sober human. I stopped drinking like two years ago,
and then it just kind of stuck and I haven't
really started again. It's that's the culture. That's how people commiserate.
You know, you do a day of work and say
(13:41):
it's the hardest day of your life. They all get
together and drink and say, you do a day of
work and the most boring day of your life. That's
equally hard. You know. There's also something really mind melting
about doing nothing all day, not being of service, not
being utilized, sitting around and and I think also a
(14:02):
lot of this is pre cell phone culture, because now
I think on sets actors are just so deeply on
their phones that they can't even tell if they haven't
been working all day, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Well, I mean again, it's also like that goes back
to what you were saying about music. I mean, you're
spending so much time promoting that, you know, it's like
you're never off from the idea there is no downtime anymore.
I mean I remember someone like Lindsay Buckingham telling me
that they could have never made rumors during the social
media age, and he's like, it would have been just
(14:35):
way too much scrutiny pressure. I mean it like it's
changed the art. It's changed all arts so much, you know.
So it's like it's funny when you were saying about,
you know, you missing the MySpace days. I remember, like
I had Justin Timberlake, who you know, has always been
cool to meet, whatever you think of him, and he
interviewed with a couple of my Grammy Camp students. And
(14:57):
what was really interesting about it was he said this,
I remember so much. He's like, I make music all
the time. He's like, I only put it out when
I have something to say. He's like, because it's so
exhausting promoted.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah, it is, because it's a different muscle, you know.
And we're all built with certain capacities. And I don't
think a human has a massive capacity to talk about
themselves again and again and again and again and again,
(15:32):
you know, Like I just, I just I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I will tell you that's definitely not true. Man. Well
but I'm not saying it's twenty four hours a day.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I know, but that's I think it's a muscle that
you develop. I don't I don't think you know, kids
like they'll talk about the stars, they'll talk about wild flowers.
They'll talk about everything you ask them about themselveslves and
instantly they're veer off into other subjects. What they love,
what this moon, what the moon is. It's not a
(16:00):
natural thing to be like, I think this about all
of these different subjects, you know, and particularly when you're
asked the same questions again and again and again, there's
something that's like, it's so surreal, you know, it's like
it's a very strange repetition that I don't think a
lot of people have the capacity to do and make
it easy, right. I think that's why it's very taxing.
(16:22):
It's a very taxing muscle.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Well, what's funny is you know we were talking about
before we started reporting about the mind saving story I did.
And what's interesting is like I love doing these stories
because I did one on culture and did one of
the doors. Because people are so much happier to talk
about being fans than they are about themselves, like as
an artist. Like, for example, when I did the culture
and story cue tip from a tribgalth clast, he's like,
(16:57):
you know, I don't talk about myself, but he's like,
I'll talk about culture right for half an hour, So
as a fan. What artists would you most love to
talk about just as a fan?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Oh? What a good question. I don't know. I think
probably the people that sort of gave me my roots,
you know, like the musicians that sort of were the
first seeds that I swallowed, right, that sort of became
(17:29):
my inner world, inner garden, that sort of set the
whole tone. I mean, Nina Simone and PJ. Harvey. I
mean PJ Harvey. For me, I feel like people just
don't talk about her enough in the sense of like
what she built, not only as a woman, but just
as an artist. At that time, I feel like she
(17:51):
was making such cinematic, brilliant sounds, soundscapes and songs.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
And I think, no, okay, because I have interview you
can Jay a couple of times, and the first time
was hilarious. She's like, have you ever talked to someone
who's very deliberate? Right? You know, when you talk to
someone who just is like everything they say is so thought.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Out mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
But with her, you know how when you're talking to
someone and it's on the phone and they're like saying
M or they'll pause or whatever, or they'll say that
to indicate a pause. She hung up on me three
times because she doesn't like pause. She like just stops
to think, and I'm just wait, what did I say?
(18:41):
But absolutely brilliant. I mean, she's such an underrated artist
and I love for me as an English major, I
love her obsession with poetry.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, her writing is incredible. I feel like I just
not not only I feel like I love the songs
and I love the writing and then going back to
just the words is such a satisfying thing.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
You know what's interesting. I mean, on this record, you
did do one cover angel for Montgomery, which is funny
because you know, it's like, I know that song more
from Bonnie Ray because I know Bonnie. I've interviewed several times,
but I never really the way that you enunciated it.
There was the one line that suck out, and it's like,
how do you, you know, go to work? How do
(19:21):
you get up in the morning, go to work all
day and at the end of the day have nothing
to say? And I'm just that line just hit me
so hard, the way that you delivered. And so I
mean the obvious question, though I hate to do obvious.
What was it about that song of all songs that
you chose to cover why that one?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Well you asked, You asked me about like you know,
fangirl moments and you know musicians. And I think that
I didn't even know who wrote that song when I
was younger, but I remember listening to it and someone saying, oh,
a guy wrote that, and that was like when I
was tiny, right, I had no idea who John Prime was.
It wasn't like on my radar, but I remember thinking, God,
(20:00):
how crazy that a guy wrote this song about this woman? Right,
And I think it was the first time that it
was like pre listening to Tom Waits, pre listening to
people that were really gender bending and writing from non
traditional narratives in songwriting. And so I feel like Angel
from Montgomery was the first time that I saw permission
(20:24):
in the world to be a non traditional songwriter, you know,
of like you can write from any point of view
that you want, not just the point of view that
you have. And I think I love I just I don't.
I don't realize. I didn't realize when I was younger
how important that was for my writing, But looking back,
that song is so important just to me in the
(20:48):
sense of it really allowed myself permission to write whatever
the hell I wanted, you know, and I and and
And It's funny because it's such a traditional song. It's
like a you know, folk classic, and when Bonnie sings it,
you feel like she owns it. It's her song. Of
course she you know. But I remember listening to Bonnie
(21:10):
Rate's version and my mom being like, yeah, a guy
wrote this song, and I just it just blew my mind.
It blew my mind. I love when people give make
room for permission in the world. Right you can be anything,
you can embody, you can make different choices, and I
think as a young person, the more you are influenced
(21:32):
by those people that are out there defining permission and
opening doors, the better, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
So that's really interesting because then when you think about
it's funny. I mean, I would have never noticed this,
but you know, obviously then if it's very well with
this record, where you know, you kind of not necessarily
ben genders as much, but it's like, definitely what was
interesting about this record is the idea we have flowers
(22:01):
for men and being a little more maybe sympathetic to
other people who have been at this point in time
and rightly said to the fact that you know, men
as a whole are like kind of fucked at this point.
And I'll me fucked in the sense of like being
treated unfairly, in the sense of being assholes. Like I
(22:21):
was on Instagram last night and watching this pastor who
was saying, like this pastor out of North Carolina who
was saying, oh, if you know you get raped in
your dress like that, and I'm on the jury, you're
going free, and it's just like this dude should just
be clubbed to death.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, it's such an out of date point of view,
you know, like I feel like that point of view
existed in a certain time when we didn't have.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
He was never okay. But it's interesting that you know,
that's why again for me who has a lot of
female friends, you know, like you understand when there's like
so much rage at this point.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, well, yeah, of course. I mean it's like you said,
you know, matterre fucked. And then the best thing about
the word fuck is that it has a multi purpose,
multidimensional meaning. Is that in that space of being fucked,
it's wildly fertile. It's wildly fertile for regrowth, right in
(23:20):
that space where everything comes into question and you're in
this sort of divine cognitive dissonance where not all of
your beliefs are ringing true anymore. Not all of the
things that you thought were values and importance to you
are no longer maybe ringing true to society. That's a
(23:40):
reinvestigation time, that's a rebirth moment. I mean, that's like
the most fertile space any human can go through. It's
very hard to get to the totally fucked sometimes, you know,
it's hard to make giant changes when you're doing great,
when everything's on your side, you know, when the sun
(24:03):
is shining and you have a care in the world.
I think that there's a space where men are being
really called in right now and not out. You know,
there's been a lot that have been on men's shoulders
for centuries where they've been called outward. And this is
a great calling in. You know, this is a recollaboration,
and I think that I can't help but see it
(24:25):
as a positive thing, you know. But I'm also raising
a sun, so I'm like moderately biased, you know. I'm
trying to think about how to open the world and
language about the world in a way that feels inviting.
Even though it's so wildly fucked. You know.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Interesting, you know, you're also raising a sun. You also
are that way you said your in laws. Are you
married yet or still engaged?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Engaged?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Right, so it's like you're also at a place where
you're very happy personally in love. So it's probably maybe
like you know, it's it's the ma grow micro I mean,
the world's fucked, but at least you know, for you,
you know, you're in a very good place personally, so
it probably makes it easier to see the positive, whereas
for other people it's like I have another friend to
(25:15):
have a more difficult time seeing the positive. Let's put
it that way.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
I understand. I think I'm also wildly an optimist. I
think even before I was in this space of being
in love, I was so wildly hungry for where the
positivity was within male relations and you know, sort of
the divine masculine. I think I'm always it's you know, listen,
(25:43):
I we can talk about how you know, like horrible
it is. I just I just think that at this
point in the world, it's not really going to move
us forward, you know, I would much rather talk about
how we want to, like, how we want to grow
in it. You know, how we want to make space
for our growth, how we want to RecA calibrate, how
(26:05):
we want to you know, start small. It's not big picture.
It's not like a giant. I'm going to change the world,
But I want to change my backyard. I want to
change my habits. I want to change how I show
up with my friends. I want to change how I
show up in my neighborhood. You know, I think those
questions are way more important than who do I want
to be in the world, what career do I want?
(26:26):
You know, I think how do I show up for myself?
And how do I show up for my neighborhood are
two of the most radical things that anyone can ask
themselves in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Interesting do you know the band of the British band the
the No Okay? So, one of the greatest albums ever
made is The Dusk and it's such what it came
out in ninety two. It's lyrically one of the best
albums ever made. But the last song that I asked
the refrain of if you can't change the world, change yourself,
(26:58):
and it's always been it's such a powerful album. But
that's interesting. So for you, right, let's tay get back
to music. When you think of optimism, what has been
the music and the artists that have been optimistic for
you over the years.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Oh gosh, it's so funny. I feel like I used
to have such a I was kind of like against,
not against, but I had a hard time. I never
really liked pop music in a certain way. I was
very like moody and serious, and I liked what I liked,
and I was like, you know, Neil Young, Tom Waits, Peter,
you know, like all of these things that I liked
(27:32):
as a teenager, and you know what would be interested
in experimenting and going record diving and you know, world
music and getting into different kinds of genres. But mostly
I kind of had a lane. And then I started
discovering dance in the sense of dealing with trauma. Like
(27:52):
I was getting really sad and upset in my life,
and I feel like it was the first time in
my late twenties I was kind of feeling like depression
in a certain way. And I remember putting the Lord
record on and and I know that's there's like a
melancholy to it, but it's like melancholy pop in a
(28:14):
lot of ways, and I just was like, oh, I
love this. I love this so much, and I felt
like it gave me this form of like nostalgic, melancholy
optimism that really just blew my mind. And then I
started listening to pop music all the time. I'm like
a complete swifty. I love Bieber, you know, like I'm
(28:37):
constantly looking for new you know, like music that's just
going to make me move and dance in a certain way.
And so I do. I find optimism in music that
makes you want to dance because I think that through dance,
it's such a healing exercise.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
I think that so so much of what we carry
in this world can be shooken out by a really
good dance, just like a shaking your ass. You know,
it's just a theory, it's a it's a guess.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
But now that's fair so obvious question. First of all,
go into the Holly humber Stone. That new album is
fucking amazing and it's really smart, literate pop music. I
also agree with you. I'm Lauren, I love her. But
for you, then, okay, what are the two or three
favorite songs that just make you move the most? Like
(29:32):
I always go back to a song like I think
about Earthlin New Fire September. I mean that's just a
perfect pop song.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Mm hmm. Okay, So Natalie Prass makes a song called
The Fire, which I love and I dance to all
the time. There's a new song by meek me a
okay or em me e e K Yeah, m e
e K called Fabulous, which I me and mysel dance
(30:00):
to all the effing time. And then gosh that. I mean,
there's so many songs that I love. I love I'm
kind of a melancholy pop girl. It's so funny, like
that's like kind of my lane. I also love Oh Bahamas.
I love Bahamas. I love that song Lost in the Light.
(30:22):
I could just like float dance to that song all
day long.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
I don't know why. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Interesting, So I mean for you, was it okay? So
it was lore of the kind of ZMAI helped you
discover that thing of like the dancing. But I mean
it's funny. Was it something like when you were a kid?
Were you like that or was it just something that
like how did you kind of discover that? Like that's
interesting to me, Like, well, was it that kind you
made you discover the physical activity of doing it, like you.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Know what it was it was being on long ass
press tours. When I was doing the Hunger Games, I
realized that I was going to lose my fucking mind
by sitting in a room all day. And I was like,
I don't want to become an alcoholic, right, I don't
want to become like depressed and sad and angry like
everyone else, and so like, I'm gonna, like, as the
(31:27):
interview finishes, I'm going to be like, thank you very much,
and then I'm gonna and I just brought around my
portable speaker and I would press play and I would
dance my ass off for the one to two minutes
as the journalists changed changed out, and it would literally
just make me feel so happy. It became like a
press tour practice. And I mean, of course everyone dances.
(31:51):
I would, you know, dance at a bar. And I
did love dancing. But I didn't realize how healing it
was and how much of like a mental health practice
it was until I did the Hunger Games press tour.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
It's so funny. I'm sure you know John c Riley
or probably been. Yeah, it's funny. I interviewed him once
for Venice magazine and he actually made a skow hiking
and he's like, that's how I test the writers. He's like,
I see if you can keep up with me. So
we did a hike in Griffith's Park. Now I would
have loved you have seen. Did you ever have writers
dance with you on the press tour or was it
(32:25):
always in between?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Some people did, some people did, but I think it
was always like it was a little awkward, you know,
it was a little but some people were into it.
I don't know. I mean, I don't really care dance
or not, you know what I mean. Everyone should be
dancing for themselves. You know, you don't need to be
dancing for anyone else. Just do it for yourself, you know,
like eyes closed. I love the idea. You know, what
I've never been to is a silent disco where everyone
(32:50):
has the headphones.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
I've done that at Bottom of Rock.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
You have. Yeah, I hear of it all the time.
I know there was like things happening in the twenty
you know, pandemic, But I'm kind of into these ideas
of like silent shows, Like I really wanted. I've been
really trying to do. I was trying to lift this
like immersive theater piece off the ground last year, but
I had to kind of pick a direction. I was like, Okay,
I'm just gonna put out my album first because I
(33:16):
didn't have enough money or funding to put out both.
But I really love the idea of like a whole
audience on headphones. You know, I think it's so in
like an outdoor public space. I just feel like it
feels really discombobulating an intimate in such a cool way,
you know.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
So obvious question. You know, this is like it's a
wonderful record, but it's kind of more introspective, you know,
in the sense of like it's not really a physical record.
You know, so do you see yourself making a melch record?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
And some point I hope one d You know. What's
so funny is I feel like every single time I
I'm like, oh, I'm writing a song, I always want
to write that, right, I'm always like, I'm gonna do it.
This is my dance song. This, I'm gonna do it,
this is the one, and it just never maybe they
dance like some of them are dancing for me, but
I haven't. I don't know. She hasn't like unleashed herself
(34:13):
and my body yet, you know, it's just it hasn't.
Maybe maybe next record, you know, all.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Right, so what's the one song you wish you had written? Then? Why?
And maybe it's a song.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Ortes Neil Young Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Definitely doesn't strike me as a dance song. It's an
amazing song, but I mean, why that one there's.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
But there's dance elements. I mean, the thing is is
like a dance song doesn't have to be like you
know where it's like well like you can kind of
just get wild as long as there's any movement as
there's like narrative pulse. I just remember hearing that song
and there's like, you know, the six minute intro. I
just love when songs have like crazy unexpected turns. Like
(34:58):
my son the other day, he's obsessed now with Michael Jackson,
which I'm so excited about. He's been very like kind
of anti older music, a little bit very like Eminem Kendrick,
like future forward thinking, and now he's obsessed with Michael Jackson,
and I'm you know, it's it's a great place to
get back into motown and some other really cool stuff.
But he's like, you know, the one thing I don't
(35:19):
like about Michael Jackson, which I love, I'm kind of
I'm not throwing them under the bus, but it's it's
a cool perspective. He's like, he always has such long intros,
and I was thinking about it, and I was like, gosh,
you know, I mean, I know that he wasn't the first,
but it feels like he was potentially one of the
first in popular music to create such narrative based intros
(35:43):
that really hit in the pop world. And I just
I so admire that. I love songs that have an entrance,
you know, it's like they build a garden gate. You
have to duck your head and all of a sudden
you're in reverence and you're listening in a way that
you wouldn't have been listening prior. I love that, and
I think Cortes, I just I find it to be
(36:05):
such an interesting I love songs about history, exploring point
of views of people that are no longer living. I
love trying to sort of take on the lens of yeah,
just like former generations or mythical figures, historical figures and
kind of reimagining their I find them really fascinating. It's
(36:27):
like I also love books like guns, Germs and Steel
or like Sapiens, you know, like I love that, Like
I don't know whatever it's called. It's just sort of
the reimagining of history I think is really really cool. Impotent.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Okay, wait, so i'll your son.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
That he's going to be ten in like three days.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Oh wow, okay, So have you taken into concerts? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
His first concert was Kendrick Lamar.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
He loves it. I mean, he loved it. And he
also is very much like me. I'm not the vegest
concert human, which you know, that's okay. Everyone. People can
have their opinions about that. He's like, thank you for
taking me. We don't have to go again. He was like,
I'm not I don't love concerts, you know. I was like,
(37:14):
that's okay. You don't have to love concerts right now.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
You know.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
We went to Chapelone, which was really fun, but it's
like it's hard for kids to see. It's just you know,
they're not built for kids. It's just the artists go
on so late. Yeah. I don't know. He's not that into.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Concerts, that's right. So for me though, as someone who's
been in the like literally five thousand shows. I'm always
fascinated with this. Why are you not that big a
concert person? What is it?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
They hate the sound quality? I cannot stay I can't
hear a lyric, I can't hear a word. I love tiny,
little shows, like living room shows, small venues, people gathered
around a piano. I love walking down the subway and
someone playing something. I love unexpected impromptu shows. I hate
(38:06):
buying a ticket going to a bar that I'm like,
I'm going to see this person, and then you get
there and everyone's talking every it's hard to hear. I
just I don't love it. I've never loved them. It's
so weird, but I I mean, you know, I just.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Know, and I have other friends who don't love them.
But I mean to me, like you said, you know
who spent probably more than that. I feel like sometimes
so I swear, I spent my half my life at shows,
So I understand.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
So some people so lifting, you know, and I love that,
And I feel like that's so cool that people love
love love them. I'm just like a weird what are
the no, you're not?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
And I know other people who don't either. What's what
other shows what I've always found THO was the best
shows are the ones that could take you out of
your head, Like you there and there's like you're not
distracted by anything, and that so like what makes a
great joke. So if we're you, what have been those shows? Now?
I'm curious where you see something that's just like, even
if there are people talking, even the crowd's annoying, even
(39:08):
there are people's feeling drinks on the internet or what
it is, you're still having just a great time.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
I mean, I just don't know if I've had that experience.
I've had a few jazz performances. I saw Eric Lewis
twice in New York and that was really electric. That
felt I love when people sit down at shows. It
was a small venue. He's an improvisational jazz artist, and
I just felt like, I like, it felt like an
(39:36):
open channeling from the universe. It was really cool. I
really loved that show. I love jazz shows. I love
the reverence that a jazz audience has. I love the
people like all crowded and they're quiet, and they want
to sit and they want to pay attention. I just
feel like like what we've learned in this new paradigm
(39:56):
that we're in with quantum theories that like, attention is everything.
Right if you if you look at a cell, it
behaves differently than not looking at it. To be seen
is not just to be seen, but to be seen
is to be alive. And so attention is more than currency.
It's it's a bloodline, it's it's it's it's like, it's
(40:19):
it's life. It's a life force. And so when people
are paying attention in a room, and I find that
jazz tends to demand that or inspire that more, I
feel like that's really electric. But like everyone's just fucking off,
you know, even hip hop. It's like it's just like
you can't. I don't know, it doesn't feel like people
are paying attention.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Depends on the show. Have you ever heard of a
nargist Namesmara Pendres say it again, Samora Pinder Hughes No.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
I don't know that.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
He's a jazz guy who became a friend. But it's funny.
He did this show built around grief a couple of
years ago. I remember seeing it with like a sage
and literally we're both in tears. It's just like one
of the most amazing things you've ever seen and some more.
I highly highly highly recommend it. He's just like the
most brilliant guy and super cool and super interesting and
(41:12):
so definitely in that vein, you know. But it's funny,
I agree. So for you then, as someone who makes
music and knows that at points you probably will put
on shows, what would you like to do? Then? You
know it's funny? For example, like I became friends with
Blue Note because I did the La Time Story on them,
you know, And even though like your music is in
traditional jazz, would you see yourself wanting to play something
(41:36):
more in that vein which is a sit down, you
know space.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Maybe, I mean, nothing's off the table, you know. I
think what I developed with the band the Shoe that
I was doing for a while, that's all. Yeah, those
are my favorite kind of shows I love. I love
going and playing on a street corner and no one
right as I call playing for the birds, and you're
just sort of like maybe if someone walks by and
(42:06):
stops for ten minutes. I love playing a show in
a living room where you invite twenty people and everyone's
seated and paying attention. I love doing impromptu shows and girls'
bathrooms where all of a sudden you have a very
intimate audience for three people every four minutes. I love
(42:27):
spontaneity and I love improvisation, and I find that those
two things just don't sit well with traditional venues. You know,
you really have to kind of interject it with a
lot to be able to bring those things to life.
And so for me, my favorite venue is the one
that no one's ever played out before, you know, the
(42:49):
one that doesn't have you know, that's like some weird
intersection or under a freeway pass or in someone's you know,
maybe there's like some building in a park that happens
to have something, or you know. I love discovering music.
I love just walking down the street and being like,
(43:11):
oh is someone playing saxophone? You know, like just being
like and then following your instincts. I love the hunter
gatherer of it, you know. I love kind of like
a scavenger hunt in some ways where they're just like,
you don't know where someone's playing, and you have to
kind of discover it and find it for yourself. I
find that that feels really rewarding. But I don't know,
(43:32):
of course, like what I play, like a really cool
sit down venue. Sure, of course, I'm just not as
drawn to that. I don't know, I just I'm not
I'm not trying to make money with live shows, and
I'm also I don't feel any need to go out
there and like play a hundred shows and make sure
the whole world hears me. I kind of just want
(43:55):
to really keep getting into like a creative development in
doing live shows where it's really risky. I love risk.
I love failing. I love trying things that I've never
done and it being like the audience being like whoa,
Like what is she doing?
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Like is that?
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
You know? All right? So for you two questions, let's
favorite intersection in La to play?
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Okay, So I haven't played in La in a long time.
I've done a few just like walking street performances with
I guess since the pandemic. I found a venue, an
outdoor venue that I really love that's down by the
La River. I think that I'm going to form I'm
gonna form like maybe four or five shows around the
(44:57):
La River because there's like four or five places that
I really really love. But yeah, I don't know. My
favorite thing to do is just get in my car
and drive and kind of location scout, you know, and
like pull over and I have my little carry amp,
so sometimes I'll be able to just like test acoustics
in certain places and just sort of see what the
(45:19):
vibe is. But yeah, I'm still location scouting, so we'll see.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
It's funny the way you're describing is like, again, as
someone who lived in New York a couple of times,
it feels more like a city thing. So for you, like,
have you done it in places like New York and
London and places like that where they have traditional buskers.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yeah, I mean it's funny that this just doing it
on a street corner is in like a big city
is not that exciting to me. Again because it's a
there's already a lot of other people doing that, you know,
and I feel like people just walk by that without
ever looking. So I'm trying to find ways to kind
of have an audience member engage with the music in
(46:01):
a way that really like breaks their brain a little bit,
you know. And so I'm trying to find and I
don't a lot of people don't play street shows in
LA It's just not it doesn't happen. There's not a
lot of like street musicians, and so I think that it's.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Easier to play topic.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Well that's fine for some people like me, which is
a weirdo. But but I think in New York I
was more drawn to playing rooftops and elevators and more intimate,
like kind of indoor spaces that felt like you can
control the sound a little bit more, but it still
felt spontaneous and personal, you know.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
All right, So for you, then, what would be like
the idea of a I need to play in La
like not necessarily venue, but like plays.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
The Glendale Hollows. It's a part of the La River
that people are starting to perform at. Courtney Barnett just
played there a couple of weeks ago. It's a really
I want to form an immersive theater play there last year,
which I didn't, which is okay, Seed Planted will be
happening soon one day. Yeah. I love that place and
(47:13):
I love that I loved it and now people are
playing there, you know what I mean. Like, I just
think that it's like so cool to see that I
might not be the only person that's craving like it,
like off the cuff venues, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Yeah, it's funny. I remember seeing the Flaming Lips, and
I've known Wayne forever play like a sunrise show at
the cemetery, but not like that outdoor, you know, but
like the outdoor part of the cemetery now indoor. And
I mean that was just so fun, so fascinating. You know.
It's like, yeah, it was amazing. All right, So we'll
wrap up with a couple of minutes. But I mean,
(47:49):
you know, one, I want to go back to the
Burroughs for a second. It's funny because we're talking about that.
It's like interesting to me. I mean when you're like, okay, right,
when you're doing scenes with someone like an alp from
Melino and like you know Melina, I mean, I like
you talked about earlier in this learning, you know. And
I remember doing an interview with Bob King when he
(48:11):
was seventy one and he was just starting to play
the clarinet and asked him why He's like, because every
day you don't learn is the day wasted. And I
always love that quote. When you get to be around
great people in any field, it feeds your creativity no
matter what you're doing. So when you were doing a
show like this and you're working with you know him
(48:31):
and Alfrey Woodard and all that. I mean, obviously I've
always had to think for Jennifer recently, I think in
terms of like she's probably, to me has been the
best actress of this generation, you know. I mean I
remember seeing her on Broadway and stuff amazing. But why
so you've always been around great actors, but still you're like,
for you talk about that you know, kind of osmosis
(48:54):
and how you put that into creativity in all walks.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
I mean, getting to work with all ages is so
wildly important because the thing is is you you think
that sitting down and working with Geena Davis right for six,
(49:22):
five months or seven months, you're going to learn so much.
You're going to be like, oh, she's been in it
for a thousand years. You're just going to be like,
I'm learning every day, and you do. But here's the
difference is that if you think you're only going to
learn something from someone that's been on this planet for
a long time, then you're missing out on some really
(49:42):
interesting teachers. Because so so I had kids in the show,
really beautiful actors starting off early in their career, and
they also taught me things. You know, I think that
to be able to be hought by someone means that
(50:02):
you get to sort of look at them, listen to
them without bias, without any hunger for anything. So maybe,
you know, I felt like I was constantly being surprised
by the amount of like theater knowledge I was gaining
from all of my co co stars in the Burroughs
and Dirty Jokes, right, and film information of like working
(50:27):
with this director and you know, they've been doing it
for fifty years some of them, it's insane, it's so beautiful.
And then also getting to see them interact with the
kids and how the kids were adding spaces of you know,
investigation and curiosity from them, and so I just I
don't know, I I think my favorite thing about that
(50:50):
show was getting to see people in their seventies having
fully fledged experiences as characters. I find that a lot
of filmmaking, narrative storytelling tends to be wildly agist. Right,
the heroes always thirty five, you know, the sub characters
(51:12):
are either like ten years old or seventy, and you know,
no one there's really far and few between. And so
what I really loved about this was getting to see
seventy year olds having sex, having casual one night stands,
having seven year olds fighting monsters. You know, I felt
like there was just so many things that I was
(51:33):
excited to just getting to see them, just to witness,
you know, just to be like, good, this is good
for my amygdalo, This is good for my brain to
see more fully fledged characters and humans around me that
aren't just so acute. You know, I really loved that.
I thought that that was so fun. But yeah, I
(51:55):
love the cast. They're just the best. They're the best.
You know, we're all in a giant group chat with
each other. We just had the best time.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
So for you as a storyteller and your songwriting, talk
about how you then take that and like how that
inspires you. Because again, what I found is that, like
we talked about with the guarding, all creativity feeds into
each other. And so for you getting to like it's right.
I mean I remember interviewing Sarah Pauley, so I'm sure
you know, or a fan, I mean, fucking brilliant. And
(52:24):
you know, again, like when you see a film like
Away from Me, how the fuck does a fucking twenty
six year old make a film about fucking Aldheimer. So
that's that's that brilliant.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
Yeah. I mean they can though, because it's sort of
like all interest is love, right, right.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
So for you talk about then as a songwriter, how
you kind of absorb that and maybe you haven't put
it into stuff yet, but it's funny, were you filming
concurrent with making the record or were they done to Okay,
So when you go back and again with the idea
of writing being subconscious, are there things you hear on
this record that kind of surprised you a little bit?
(53:06):
And maybe you didn't notice, you know, because you're doing
this other thing, and then when you go back and
listen to it, you kind of hear it. And again
the idea of writing being subconscious. Like Adie the Frankly
told me, I asked her what the album was about,
She's like, I don't know, asked me twenty years m hmm.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
So I yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think
that there's a lot of there's a lot of like
my future self on this record, you know. I think
that there was a lot of me looking to the
future to look backwards to sort of see what I
would want to tell myself or another human. Yeah, and
(53:42):
maybe I had sort of the two were from what
I was experiencing on the Burrows. I think, if anything,
there was just a curiosity I think I'm and with
this record in particularly, I was really very humble and
curious about where it wanted to go. And it constantly
(54:03):
surprised me, you know of just like feeling like I
was pushing in this direction, but I also knew that
I had to be open and curious, and as we
led down that direction, it was kind of now becoming
something else. Like the song Set Your Sorrows Down. I
felt like that first beginning voice part was actually this
(54:26):
kind of spoken word poem that I had vocalized like
five years ago, six years ago, when I was still
in the throes of like early motherhood, and I'm just
so glad that I recorded it because it was a
freestyle and then it but it found its impact when
I was making this record. I listened to it and
(54:47):
I was like, oh, I know what this voice is.
This This is like this arc non gendered angel sort
of from the future looking back, being like, let me
show you what love is, let me show you how
to love your self, and it's way simpler than what
you think, you know, But yeah, I guess it was
just the curiosity. It was nice to be curious and
(55:09):
not really think that I had to achieve or land anywhere,
but rather just the expiration was enough.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
So are the songs that particularly surprise you. I think
one that jumped out to me. It's funny because I
listened a couple of times again today. I mean, obviously
I listened to it a while ago, but listening to
it again today's creating her name. And I love that
idea because it's like, as an artist, that's really the
most probably the most romantic thing you can say to someone,
is I want to create in your name.
Speaker 2 (55:36):
Mhmm, yeah, I mean as an artist, as a human.
I mean, it's what we do in marriage. It's sort
of what we do with babies. It's a very like
genetic coding, you know, like DNA mixing. And also it
is it's an artist to artist of like, you know,
really being like you inspire me. You're giving me these
(55:56):
new ideas, and under your name, I'm able to kind
of thrive in a different way. I love that. I
love that you saw that.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
Well. Yeah, So for you, what were the songs out
here the surprise you? Most?
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Disaster zones and Herman Park.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Okay, I when you go back, what do you look back?
What surprised you?
Speaker 2 (56:20):
I love when the drumas kick in and Herman Park.
I really think that it's so surprising, and it just
reminds me of like some you know, sometimes when I'm
listening to like a like a I don't know, like
like early Fiona Apple, or like even really past the
bolt Cutters. Uh. She always does such surprising beats and
(56:48):
rhythms in her records. I just find it so inspiring.
And getting to work with a producer that had had
a similar sense sencimental sense, you know, sensitivity were that
she just was happy to take really wild swings. And
I know that Herman Park was this very soft kind
(57:09):
of love story about you know, can you love me
at my worst? And I want to hold you in
your worst? And that's really where the sort of softness
of love is born. When she put those drums on
the later half of the song, I just died. I
mean I was just like so in love, and then
Disaster Zones kind of became this whole like I don't know,
(57:32):
it feels like when I enter into that, it's so
just different than anything I've been able to play with.
I just feel like it's like entering another planet, you know,
And I think that's so cool. It's so cool to
get to create something that really takes you out of
the world for a second.
Speaker 3 (57:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (57:50):
Absolutely, all right, we'll wrap up because we've been not
in an hour. But I do have to ask one
time weight song you would cover?
Speaker 2 (57:58):
Oh, I've covered many times. It was chocolate Jesus. I mean,
me and Lem's used to do it at our live
shows all the time.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
Why that one?
Speaker 2 (58:09):
I don't know. I love it. I love it and
it was just fun. It was like a fun one
for our show with what we did. There's a come
up to the house. What's that one? What's that one.
Speaker 1 (58:23):
Track coming up to the House?
Speaker 2 (58:26):
Yeah, I also love that one. I feel like I
wrote a similar song to that that was like called
come on up to the Farm that felt like a
I've never done it, I haven't finished it, but uh
it felt like a homage to that song. I mean,
I loved Tom Waite so much. I would cover the
early years. I would go back. I would I would
(58:47):
not only do that, but I would want to like
make a movie about it because I just feel like
he's so like him and Chet Baker, like those sort
of young masculine, you know, iconic like ramblers. Just I was,
I was, just I loved so much, you know, I
still love.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
I mean, you guys have like twenty lives, but every
one of them it is, I mean amazing.
Speaker 2 (59:15):
Yeah. And the new the new song that you just
put out me.
Speaker 1 (59:20):
Yeah, the one you did with Massive Attack. That's brilliant.
Speaker 2 (59:24):
Yeah, it's amazing, amazing.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
That we didn't talk about.
Speaker 2 (59:29):
Thank you, Steve. This was so fun.
Speaker 1 (59:32):
Yeah, I feel like we covered a lot of grounds,
so yes, I.
Speaker 2 (59:35):
Know, yeah, we always do.
Speaker 3 (59:36):
I feel like we always do.
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