February 4, 2026 • 37 mins
On this week's In Service Of singer/songwriter Patty Griffin sits down with Steve Baltin for a masterclass in songwriting. Talking about her superb new album, "Crown of Roses," inspired by the recent passing of her mom, Griffin goes deep into how her family has affected her songwriting, as well as those artists whose music has healed her. Anyone interested in songwriting cannot miss this one.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hey to Steve Balton.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Then this week on in Service Hub, I am joined
by the great Patty Griffin, one of the most acclaimed
singer songwriters the last twenty five years. Patty is one
of those artists too. Even if you don't know her stuff,
I guarantee you your favorite singer songwriter is obsessed with her.
Wonderful artist out of Texas, just a great person. This
(00:34):
is a really fun conversation on her latest album, touring
and all things songwriting.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Thanks so much. Hope you enjoyed this one as much
as I did. Well, I'm glad we get to do
this today. You and I have spoken in the past.
It's been a while. I've always been a fan. It's
(01:04):
such a beautiful record.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Appreciate it and makes sense coming from such a intimate,
tumultuous place, because you know, it's funny. I went through
a very similar experience with my mom, and it's interesting
for you. I'm curious, you know, because I'm such a
believer in writing, being so conscious when he went back
(01:29):
and listened to this record, were there are things you
learned about your mom that really surprised you.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Ah, Well, I haven't listened to my own record a lot.
I kind of wrote it, and I've been singing them
the songs, you know, But uh no, I mean the
whole process getting to know her was, you know, in
(01:56):
many ways surprise on many levels. Like it was a
surprise that that worked, you know, that we actually could
kind of get to know each other and and and
kind of fall in love with each other, you know,
so late in life, and and and then of course,
(02:21):
you know, just learning about her and all of the
different things that she just didn't think were important to
share with us over the years that we found out
towards the end. It was really a lot of it
had to do with my sisters, who were you know,
I have I have a couple of sisters who actually
(02:44):
do One of them is a lawyer and one of
them is like a writer, and they both know how
to get people to talk. So they've got some really
good stories from her, and it sort of started the
ball rolling.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
It's funny because you say they know how to get
people to talk, so then it makes me think of
one of my favorite lines of all times from Paul Westerward,
who I'm a fanatic about, and then the song of
things he says, I think there are things I can
never tell you. One day you'll be a song I sing,
a thing I give away. Did you kind of feel
that way in a way, like you know, your mom
(03:24):
becomes so they're the talkers, but then you're the storyteller
who convease it.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Well, hopefully they're the storytellers too. I think they have
They're going to be able to tell their own version
of things. But I definitely I've always mind my family
for the inspiration, and it seems to be the main
theme of everything I've ever done, is that all kind
(03:52):
of revolves around them, and uh, and this is just
another another one of those. But it feels really different
this time around because I think I'm older. There's less
hype now that I'm older about things like that, and
(04:13):
so actually really involving my mother in a public way
is is a little scary to me, especially right now
because she just passed away, and and I'm not the
only child that she I'm not her only daughter or son,
so I'm kind of sharing a lot about her from
(04:34):
my point of view publicly. That's been a little odd
to do and new for me to do. So, but
she but you know, everybody's got the I can only
tell my version is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Well, the other thing is a writer, you know, writing
about things helps you deal with things, helps you understand,
you know. So I'm sure in a way, whether it
was intentional or not, it's probably a lot to do
with your grief.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, I think, you know, I have the same reaction.
When my father was dying, I just wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote,
wrote about it for years and I didn't know I
was writing by my mother. I think it was such
a tender thing losing her that I was actually in
a period of throwing a lot of songs out, you know,
(05:29):
right starting things, of throwing them away. And it may
have had to do with being overwhelmed by grief and
you know, that feeling of nothing's really going to say it,
nothing's really going to be good enough, you know, nothing
really does say it, you know either. I always go
(05:52):
back to there was some timeline I read about Richard Wright,
but I just read his Black Boy, you know, yeah,
and I thought I've got it, I've got him, you know,
(06:12):
but there's still so much that he, even a great writer,
can't put into their own story. And so you know,
you just kind of have to get as I'm older,
I'm definitely more humble about my abilities, and it kind
of stopped me up for a little while, knowing that
(06:32):
would not ever be efficient. And I think now it's now,
it's kind of freed me a little bit, because no,
it's not ever going to be entirely efficient to describe
a life, especially the life of someone like my mother,
who is really kind of extraordinary in her quiet, unknown
(06:54):
way and as so many so many people are. But
it's worth telling anyway, in my and whatever way I
can do it.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
You know, Well, what's so interesting about that is a
couple of years ago I did a book called Anthems
We Love, and it was I spoke with all these
different artists, you know, from Brian Wilson to Neil Diamond.
Do you know all the greats about you know, one
song that they had done, how it evolved into becoming
an anthem. And the thing that was interesting to me,
the most interesting thing to me about it was in
(07:25):
talking with Daryl Hall about Sarah Smile and Graham Nash
about our House. Those were literally songs written for one
person that became love by millions. And I'm sure that
what you found is in this album there are so
many people who feel the same way, Like Brandy Clark.
You know, I interviewed her for the last album, which
I thought was brilliant, you know, and she was talking
(07:46):
about writing the song about her grandmother and who you know,
no one else knows Brandy Clark's grandmother, and people love
that song.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah, yeah, Well, I think it's I think it's the
emotional gibility to sort of for me as a musician.
There's all kinds of ways to go about doing everything,
but it's always been the emotional thing has always been
if I'm not connecting to it, and it's not always
(08:18):
easy to connect to the emotional stuff for me, I
think that, you know, it takes a lot of guts
to be doing that over and over again, especially in
front of people at shows. And I can't say that
I've always risen to the challenge, but it is really
(08:39):
the key part for me. If that's not there and
it's not real stuff, then I mean, it's like quitting
puzzle pieces together. If it's not that, you know what
I mean, there's like I which is fine, that's something
to do too, but I'd rather try to singing if
(09:01):
I'm gonna get it in front of people and saying
I'd rather bring something real from inside of me out
and it's you know, my own family life is full
of so many things that that I'm learning from and
now at the age of sixty one. So anyway, well.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
It's interesting for you when you think back to those
records that like first connected with you, when you think
back to the artists that are emotional or those you know,
I always go back to right when you're a kid.
There when you're first discovering music. There are the songs
they you feel like the singer is like in your
head and you're kind of like, wait, how do they
know what I'm thinking? So what were those songs for
you growing up?
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I don't know if they knew what I was thinking,
But I don't know if I got that experience until
I got a little older. But I've always been amazed
by the pull and a voice, you know, like I
love the Beatles. My very first favorite Beatle was John
Lennon to begin with, But the Beatle that's really stood
(10:15):
the test of time for me is Paul McCartney because
he wrote yesterday, I mean it's actually, you know, it's
a song that can't ever go away and and what
it what it created was this universal kind of pull
on your heart into a feeling even as a kid,
(10:44):
you just you know that that loneliness and of loss,
I think is such a huge part of what everybody's
going through daily. That's human and and he nailed it really,
really well. So whether you meant to or not, I
know I was really young when he wrote it, but
he did. And it's something in that voice and the
(11:08):
combination of that and the melody that really every now
and then I go back and I think, oh, there's yesterday,
There's yesterday. Holy cow. You know.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
So it's so funny you say that, because I never
thought about that. But I've spoken with so many songwriters
in the last few years about how songwriting is like channeling,
how you'll have your antenta up and things will come in.
And it's interesting that you say he was so young
when he wrote that, because the song that has amazed
me the last few years after seeing her do it
live is Joni Both Sides Now, which of course was
also written when she was so young. And there's like
(11:42):
this thing that makes you think, like, is there something
about how you're younger and you know your mind is
less clutter that you just get this sort of like
a pit because again, you know, I love Jackson Brown.
It's one of my favorites of all time, and I've
known him for years, and you look at him writing
a song like these Days when you're sixteen, or you
look at writing both sides now when you're twenty two,
and it's like, how the hell do you know anything
(12:05):
about life at that much? At that age.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I think you do tap into things when you're young.
I look at it like this. When I was younger,
I was fearless about mining things and from anywhere I
wanted to. And as I've gotten older, I'm more cautious.
(12:35):
They're not all your stories to tell, so you have
to be careful what once you're telling and how you're
telling them, and who you're telling them to. And so
that's what I think, and it makes it a little
trickier as you've gotten older. I definitely have written some
songs about people that have really tossed them off, and
(12:57):
even though I thought I was doing this loving thing,
it didn't feel that way to them.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
So well, that goes back again to the Westerbrook quote.
But that's interesting. I mean, are there songs then that you.
I don't want to say that you regret writing, but
(13:24):
that you look at now and you're like, you know,
I don't know if I would have done. It's funny.
When I was doing the Anthems book, I interviewed Carly
Simon for it, and I let her choose the song
and she chose Anticipation and she's like, unless you really
want to do your so vy And I said, I'm
sure you never want to talk about that song again,
and she goes, thank you so much. You know, because
(13:49):
what am I going to ask her for the six
hundred and twenty second time? Who's it about?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Well? I know, but I also that because it's about
a very famous man. I mean, if you've ever been
as associated if you're a female anything, who does anything,
and you're associated with the very famous male, that becomes
such a huge feature about who you are and nothing else.
And so yeah, you don't want to talk about it
(14:14):
over and over again. There's that point of view. I
would imagine that just hearing you tell that story, I
was thinking, yeah, I don't want to talk about him again.
Thank you. Wouldn't that be nice if I didn't have to?
You know what I mean that's what she was probably thinking.
But I feel like the thing that people that you're
(14:37):
really really the closest to when you share about them,
I don't think I would ever, and I never have
done it in a malicious way. I kind of gave
(14:57):
up writing that way when I was a lot younger,
writing angrily and about certain people. But I think that's
I'm just built as someone who's my whole, Like my
(15:23):
power in this world is somebody who can approach emotions
a little bit more head on than a lot of
people around me. I've noticed and and I may not
do that. I may not live a very public here's
what I think, here's what I know kind of way,
(15:44):
But it's not that I'm not paying attention to those
details in life when I see them, even even in
little places that I'm walking by for a moment. You know,
I'm noticing feelings, people's feelings and perceptions that maybe someone's having.
(16:07):
And that's just how I think. That is how I
am made, And the more I use that when I'm writing,
the better off I think I am personally well.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Going back to the channeling thing, I remember talking with
cap Power Sean Marshall, who's a friend she was saying
that she like she would hear that voice when she
was like three years old, you know, and like that
just it was kind of like a protector, and so
she always was tapped into it. Sit down, I'm curious
for you. When did you discover that you had that empathy,
(16:46):
that sort of, for lack of a better term, superpower
to see other people's feelings. Was it something we discovered
from a very young age.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
I didn't really know that that was true until I
got a lot older. And now I keep I do notice.
I keep waiting for people to get out of junior high,
and I always say, wow, it's like you're all in
junior high because I think that there is a lack
(17:19):
of appreciation for those abilities. And there are plenty of
people with them that plenty of people that I say, they
know how to be grown up, so they know how
to feel and sense others and be aware of others.
But it isn't necessarily something that's been culturally encouraged. And
so I mean, people put more into you getting as
(17:42):
many degrees as possible and working as many hours as
possible than they do you becoming more empathetic and as
an artist, I feel very lucky, because I feel like
if I'm not doing that, and I'm really being a
lazy bum, you know, so there's no point in it
(18:06):
unless you're really trying to get to the truth of
things emotionally as much as you can, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
So for you, I mean, you know, what are those songs?
I talk about this with writers all the time. As
a songwriter, you're always, of course trying to do your
best work, but as a songwriter, you can never write
your best work. Paul McCartney thought he could do better
than yesterday. That's why I kept going. Brian Wilson, I
talked to you about God Only Knows. Ninety eight percent
(18:37):
of the world thinks God only Knows is the most
perfect song ever written. But you know, Brian Wilson always
thought he could do better. So for you, what have
been those moments where you feel that you've come closest
to the truth?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Ah that's a hard one and I'm not really sure
I'm willing to share that, but uh, I think that's funny.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
You can always put the fifth on this rend.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Okay. I think on this record, I think that the
song I wrote a song specifically about my mom. It
took me about four or five years too, and had
several different versions. And it because it's really in my
mind biographical and in a in a song way, not
(19:38):
in a biography kind of way. But there was some
there was something I needed to learn about my mom
before she went that I learned and I finally got
it in the line of a song on this particular record,
(19:58):
and and I think it I think looking back, it
took me about twelve years to learn this one particular thing,
or maybe more, maybe fifteen years to learn this one
particular thing about her and took it was a massive,
massive process that was just this one little line where
(20:20):
I went, Okay, I understood, I do understand this part
of her. It makes everything. Okay, it makes everything okay.
I don't think i'm'll tell you what it is, but
I do feel like it was me getting around to
that that was really I love that when that happens,
(20:45):
and when you're writing.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Well, I didn't ask you what it was, but I
have been I'm curious, but I won't ask, But now
I am curious. Do you think you would have figured
it out without music or was it something a song
lad you help figure out?
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Definitely would not figure it out without music. I think
that that is the thing, that it's this thing that
I actually know how to do well enough to bring
those things out, have a good reason to feel those things,
and and so yeah, I don't think I would know
(21:32):
any I think that I've been very lucky getting to
be a songwriter because it or a writer of any kind,
because it's allowed me to grow in certain ways that
other people don't get to necessarily spend enough time in
their lives so because they're too busy, you know, doing
(21:59):
other things things.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
That's my job, you know, right well, and the other
thing of course too. I was going to say, having
lost both parents as well, you know, usually you're so
busy afterwards just dealing with the logistics of stuff that
you don't really get a chance to sort of process
it and think about stuff. So for you, though, because
you were able to channel it into writing into making
an album, do you feel like you were you know,
(22:25):
had that advantage of having more time to sort of
not as well but think and to understand it. Well.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
I'm also really lucky because I have three brothers and
three sisters that are older than me and very organized
about life and smart in this way that I'm not
so as far as that I can't take credit for
really handling very much of those logistics. Have she passed away,
(22:55):
I was really be there now person when it was
going on, and that kind of stuff has gone to
other people in my family. So I'm pretty fortunate that way.
But what were you saying? I can't remember.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
I know, I was just saying that you were saying,
you're very lucky to be a writer. And I was saying,
typically even if you know, or you're busy consoling your
brothers and sisters, or you're doing family stuff, or you're
cleaning out the house, or you're dealing with the estate.
So because they do, you know, you don't get the
chance to really process for a long time what happened.
And you were saying that, and I was asking for
(23:39):
you as a writer, do you feel like you maybe
got to deal with stuff more because you get or
it's interesting right. I was talking with Luke Steele from
the band Empire of the Sun earlier this year, great band,
and he had lost his father right before on the
road and yeah, they play arenas, and he was talking
about how cathartic it was to be having the singlelongs
every night with fans on stage, and that was like
(24:02):
this feeling of being alive and the spirit, you know,
and for you do you feel like because you get
to share this with an audience as well, that it
does bring a little bit of healing because there is
a communal feeling, I.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Think, I hope. So I mean that to me that
I think that's the point. I don't know if it's
even a point on any literal level, but it, you know,
it definitely to me is the point of for me
personally when I go see music, when I go stand
in a room where people are playing music, that that's
kind of what I hope for, you know. So I
(24:39):
hope so I hope that it does have some healing
to offer. And I think, my my, when I'm doing
my my personal best and doing the thing that I
am better at doing, it's it's got it. It's got
that involved. Definitely, U something of my heart is in there,
(25:04):
all right.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
So now, obvious question, what's one of the most healing
shows you've seen? Those shows where you best experienced a
communal feeling or that just blew you away the most.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I've been seeing a lot more music lately, so, uh, well,
you know, what And I'm not just kissing her butt
because I'm going to be on the road with her
in the fall. But I never saw Ricky Lee Jones
until this summer, and I saw her from the side
of the stage and she made me we're doing a
(25:48):
cobill and she made me go second, which is not
where you want to be. And because A I wanted
to see the show, and B I don't want to
follow her. But she absolutely I'm such a fan. Talk
about like starting to relate to somebody, somebody's songs on
(26:15):
a personal level, like, oh, I understand that, and I've
never heard anybody sing about that before in that way.
Is Ricky Lee Jones for me? I think I was
a teenager, you know when she showed up and I
was just really grateful that she could do that. I
felt healed, I felt like nourished by that, you know,
(26:37):
like in this very profound way, because I do connect
to her. I connected to her, and I've connected to
her for like fifty years, you know, and so it's
really it was thrilling to get to see a show
that was that magical. It was she blew me away.
(27:02):
There's nothing there wasn't a single thing about it that
didn't make any sense. Everything made sense about it. There's
something about an artist that's been doing it for that long, too,
that it's really exciting to see. I've seen John Prine
do those. I've seen maybe Staple do those. I've seen
shows like that from older artists a lot. I saw
(27:25):
Johnny Cash one year, he was in his seventies I
Tell your Eye Bluegrass Festival, and he was solo. He
played with the band, but he also played solo, and
he had June was there going on and off the stage,
(27:51):
and I don't know, it's just something about I don't
know how it works formance, I don't know why it works,
but it does work, and that it does at all.
It's just so it's like it's like why people probably
go to church, I guess, you know, you know, I
(28:13):
think it's it's like they want to have that lift
and that feeling come through them. And from all those
people I mentioned have had that at different times. So,
but I've seen shows, little shows in town that have
been phenomenal, you know, it just stuff at local stuff
(28:35):
in Austin that's been beautiful. And you know, anyway, music
just I think music does that, you know, hopefully it
does well.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
And I think that's interesting about it. It's funny the
name of the podcast I do is called in service
of and it's kind of you know, it started off
being more about philanthropy, but in talking with so many musicians,
where I realized is that music, by nature is just
being in service of. It's whether you're in service to
the music, whether you're in service to the fans, and
especially now you know, at a time when fans are
(29:10):
so in need of well that healing, you know, so
can you talk about what being in service of means
and how you get back?
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Well, I have a whole record called Servant of Love,
So I'm onto that. I'm onto that concept. And I
think especially too, if you've had if you've been a
musician in this time period and there in our culture
(29:43):
and you've gotten to do it mainly that's the only
thing you do to make your you know, bread and butter,
that it does consume your life. So like, after a
certain point you realize that your main relationship is with
(30:04):
that audience, you know, like that that's that's the one
that you're standing up for over and over and over again.
And it kind of takes that I've never been able
to figure out another way to do it and to
have like a personal life that says well developed as
(30:29):
a show, you know. And I really I don't think
there's anything wrong with that. I think if that's that's
my strength, and that's my strength, and yeah, and I
think and it's interesting as a grown up person. I mean,
I hang out with a lot of musicians, but I
(30:51):
also hang out with a lot of service people, people
who were service people, you know, retired service people, people
who owned you know, we're like in retail, people that
cut hair, people that didn't make up, people that you know,
just really we're doing real service. I'm always blown away
(31:14):
by watching like nurses and you know, people that really
know how to do that stuff and do it so
you feel cared for and nourished, you know. I mean,
it's like, I think everybody has a lot of people
have service jobs and they're not necessarily recognized as such,
(31:36):
not just musicians, you know. So and it's also to
me it should hopefully will become more exalted. I'm glad
to hear that you have a podcast called that, because
I feel like I've been in service jobs my entire
life before I was a musician. I was in a
service job.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
It was in some kind of job where I was
trying to achieve something for somebody else. And I'm really
much more comfortable of doing that than anything else. You know.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Well, I think that makes sense. I think that's why
a lot of people gravitate to music or music is like,
it's interesting. I don't know if i'd say that there
are musicians, you know, because that's the calling. But I
think by you know, having it as a calling, with that,
it coincides with being someone being in service up. As
an artist, you naturally are in service up, is what
(32:33):
I'm trying to say.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Not well, but yeah, yeah, definitely, for sure, I'm also
in the service of these guys.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Nice how old?
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Well, this is Buster, It's Buster, he's mine, He's I
think it's like, I think he's eight or nine. I
don't really know, because I got him a couple of
years ago and they said he was four, which always
means he's a.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah, I rescued an eight year old who was actually
about twelve.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
And this is uh and this his girlfriend is visiting
Linda Ronstat. Her name is Linda Ronstadt. So he goes
out with Linda Ronstatt and she comes and stays with
us sometimes.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Have you ever met the real Linda on stat.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I have a couple of times. She's really cool.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, So okay, now I'm just curious. This is a fan.
I'm gonna ask you, what's your favorite Linda Ronstadt song?
Speaker 2 (33:40):
That's tough.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
I remember listening to a long long time, over and
over and over again when I was young and learning
how to sing, because she does have a way of
singing that is astonishing. It's pristine and when you watch
your dot, when you would watch your do it, she
didn't look like she was really making a lot of effort.
(34:06):
And there's so much volume and power in it, and
a long long time is she takes that power and
she kind of dials it down into this little small
space and holds it there and it sounds and it's
also really hard thing to do. It's a really hard
thing to do what she's doing, and it makes this
(34:28):
tension happen that you know, it breaks your heart. You know.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I was going to say, you want to talk about
a song that conveys a lot of emotion?
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Yeah, yeah, Well, we only.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Have a few minutes left on the zoom so what
is it that you want to ask? Well, I'm going
to ask you leikly about going on tour with Ricky
I mean, after fifty years, thirty years, forty years, whatever
it is of touring, does the fact that you get
to do that, go out with someone that you've always
admired just keep it fresh and more fun for you?
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Yes, I don't think I've I've been fans of people
as I've gone along. I've I've worked with so many
people that I'm fans of, but this is on another
level for me. Ricky Lee's on another level. You know,
I didn't really connect to another white lady singer songwriter
(35:28):
in my youth until she. I got how good people were,
but I didn't feel like that, oh wow, this is
my person until Ricky Lee showed up. And so I've
never gotten to really even meet her until this summer.
(35:51):
And she's probably totally freaked out that I'm such a
yucky fan, but but but she's very very sweet about it,
and and it's incredible. It's just like this powerful, powerful
thing to hear her, you know, up close like that.
So I'm very excited I get to do that. I'm
(36:13):
going to have to because she's making me go last,
which is her right. She's you know, she can do
whatever she wants. She gets to go to bed earlier.
That way, I'll have to have my shit together before
her show, so then I get to watch her show
(36:34):
before you know mine. I'm not getting ready while she's playing.
So anyway, very excited, very cool.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Well we're almost at a time when the zoom. Is
there anything that you want to add that I'd not
ask you about.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
No, I'm good, Thank you very much for everything.
Hey to Steve Balton.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Then this week on in Service Hub, I am joined
by the great Patty Griffin, one of the most acclaimed
singer songwriters the last twenty five years. Patty is one
of those artists too. Even if you don't know her stuff,
I guarantee you your favorite singer songwriter is obsessed with her.
Wonderful artist out of Texas, just a great person. This
(00:34):
is a really fun conversation on her latest album, touring
and all things songwriting.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Thanks so much. Hope you enjoyed this one as much
as I did. Well, I'm glad we get to do
this today. You and I have spoken in the past.
It's been a while. I've always been a fan. It's
(01:04):
such a beautiful record.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Appreciate it and makes sense coming from such a intimate,
tumultuous place, because you know, it's funny. I went through
a very similar experience with my mom, and it's interesting
for you. I'm curious, you know, because I'm such a
believer in writing, being so conscious when he went back
(01:29):
and listened to this record, were there are things you
learned about your mom that really surprised you.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Ah, Well, I haven't listened to my own record a lot.
I kind of wrote it, and I've been singing them
the songs, you know, But uh no, I mean the
whole process getting to know her was, you know, in
(01:56):
many ways surprise on many levels. Like it was a
surprise that that worked, you know, that we actually could
kind of get to know each other and and and
kind of fall in love with each other, you know,
so late in life, and and and then of course,
(02:21):
you know, just learning about her and all of the
different things that she just didn't think were important to
share with us over the years that we found out
towards the end. It was really a lot of it
had to do with my sisters, who were you know,
I have I have a couple of sisters who actually
(02:44):
do One of them is a lawyer and one of
them is like a writer, and they both know how
to get people to talk. So they've got some really
good stories from her, and it sort of started the
ball rolling.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
It's funny because you say they know how to get
people to talk, so then it makes me think of
one of my favorite lines of all times from Paul Westerward,
who I'm a fanatic about, and then the song of
things he says, I think there are things I can
never tell you. One day you'll be a song I sing,
a thing I give away. Did you kind of feel
that way in a way, like you know, your mom
(03:24):
becomes so they're the talkers, but then you're the storyteller
who convease it.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Well, hopefully they're the storytellers too. I think they have
They're going to be able to tell their own version
of things. But I definitely I've always mind my family
for the inspiration, and it seems to be the main
theme of everything I've ever done, is that all kind
(03:52):
of revolves around them, and uh, and this is just
another another one of those. But it feels really different
this time around because I think I'm older. There's less
hype now that I'm older about things like that, and
(04:13):
so actually really involving my mother in a public way
is is a little scary to me, especially right now
because she just passed away, and and I'm not the
only child that she I'm not her only daughter or son,
so I'm kind of sharing a lot about her from
(04:34):
my point of view publicly. That's been a little odd
to do and new for me to do. So, but
she but you know, everybody's got the I can only
tell my version is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Well, the other thing is a writer, you know, writing
about things helps you deal with things, helps you understand,
you know. So I'm sure in a way, whether it
was intentional or not, it's probably a lot to do
with your grief.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, I think, you know, I have the same reaction.
When my father was dying, I just wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote,
wrote about it for years and I didn't know I
was writing by my mother. I think it was such
a tender thing losing her that I was actually in
a period of throwing a lot of songs out, you know,
(05:29):
right starting things, of throwing them away. And it may
have had to do with being overwhelmed by grief and
you know, that feeling of nothing's really going to say it,
nothing's really going to be good enough, you know, nothing
really does say it, you know either. I always go
(05:52):
back to there was some timeline I read about Richard Wright,
but I just read his Black Boy, you know, yeah,
and I thought I've got it, I've got him, you know,
(06:12):
but there's still so much that he, even a great writer,
can't put into their own story. And so you know,
you just kind of have to get as I'm older,
I'm definitely more humble about my abilities, and it kind
of stopped me up for a little while, knowing that
(06:32):
would not ever be efficient. And I think now it's now,
it's kind of freed me a little bit, because no,
it's not ever going to be entirely efficient to describe
a life, especially the life of someone like my mother,
who is really kind of extraordinary in her quiet, unknown
(06:54):
way and as so many so many people are. But
it's worth telling anyway, in my and whatever way I
can do it.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
You know, Well, what's so interesting about that is a
couple of years ago I did a book called Anthems
We Love, and it was I spoke with all these
different artists, you know, from Brian Wilson to Neil Diamond.
Do you know all the greats about you know, one
song that they had done, how it evolved into becoming
an anthem. And the thing that was interesting to me,
the most interesting thing to me about it was in
(07:25):
talking with Daryl Hall about Sarah Smile and Graham Nash
about our House. Those were literally songs written for one
person that became love by millions. And I'm sure that
what you found is in this album there are so
many people who feel the same way, Like Brandy Clark.
You know, I interviewed her for the last album, which
I thought was brilliant, you know, and she was talking
(07:46):
about writing the song about her grandmother and who you know,
no one else knows Brandy Clark's grandmother, and people love
that song.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah, yeah, Well, I think it's I think it's the
emotional gibility to sort of for me as a musician.
There's all kinds of ways to go about doing everything,
but it's always been the emotional thing has always been
if I'm not connecting to it, and it's not always
(08:18):
easy to connect to the emotional stuff for me, I
think that, you know, it takes a lot of guts
to be doing that over and over again, especially in
front of people at shows. And I can't say that
I've always risen to the challenge, but it is really
(08:39):
the key part for me. If that's not there and
it's not real stuff, then I mean, it's like quitting
puzzle pieces together. If it's not that, you know what
I mean, there's like I which is fine, that's something
to do too, but I'd rather try to singing if
(09:01):
I'm gonna get it in front of people and saying
I'd rather bring something real from inside of me out
and it's you know, my own family life is full
of so many things that that I'm learning from and
now at the age of sixty one. So anyway, well.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
It's interesting for you when you think back to those
records that like first connected with you, when you think
back to the artists that are emotional or those you know,
I always go back to right when you're a kid.
There when you're first discovering music. There are the songs
they you feel like the singer is like in your
head and you're kind of like, wait, how do they
know what I'm thinking? So what were those songs for
you growing up?
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I don't know if they knew what I was thinking,
But I don't know if I got that experience until
I got a little older. But I've always been amazed
by the pull and a voice, you know, like I
love the Beatles. My very first favorite Beatle was John
Lennon to begin with, But the Beatle that's really stood
(10:15):
the test of time for me is Paul McCartney because
he wrote yesterday, I mean it's actually, you know, it's
a song that can't ever go away and and what
it what it created was this universal kind of pull
on your heart into a feeling even as a kid,
(10:44):
you just you know that that loneliness and of loss,
I think is such a huge part of what everybody's
going through daily. That's human and and he nailed it really,
really well. So whether you meant to or not, I
know I was really young when he wrote it, but
he did. And it's something in that voice and the
(11:08):
combination of that and the melody that really every now
and then I go back and I think, oh, there's yesterday,
There's yesterday. Holy cow. You know.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
So it's so funny you say that, because I never
thought about that. But I've spoken with so many songwriters
in the last few years about how songwriting is like channeling,
how you'll have your antenta up and things will come in.
And it's interesting that you say he was so young
when he wrote that, because the song that has amazed
me the last few years after seeing her do it
live is Joni Both Sides Now, which of course was
also written when she was so young. And there's like
(11:42):
this thing that makes you think, like, is there something
about how you're younger and you know your mind is
less clutter that you just get this sort of like
a pit because again, you know, I love Jackson Brown.
It's one of my favorites of all time, and I've
known him for years, and you look at him writing
a song like these Days when you're sixteen, or you
look at writing both sides now when you're twenty two,
and it's like, how the hell do you know anything
(12:05):
about life at that much? At that age.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I think you do tap into things when you're young.
I look at it like this. When I was younger,
I was fearless about mining things and from anywhere I
wanted to. And as I've gotten older, I'm more cautious.
(12:35):
They're not all your stories to tell, so you have
to be careful what once you're telling and how you're
telling them, and who you're telling them to. And so
that's what I think, and it makes it a little
trickier as you've gotten older. I definitely have written some
songs about people that have really tossed them off, and
(12:57):
even though I thought I was doing this loving thing,
it didn't feel that way to them.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
So well, that goes back again to the Westerbrook quote.
But that's interesting. I mean, are there songs then that you.
I don't want to say that you regret writing, but
(13:24):
that you look at now and you're like, you know,
I don't know if I would have done. It's funny.
When I was doing the Anthems book, I interviewed Carly
Simon for it, and I let her choose the song
and she chose Anticipation and she's like, unless you really
want to do your so vy And I said, I'm
sure you never want to talk about that song again,
and she goes, thank you so much. You know, because
(13:49):
what am I going to ask her for the six
hundred and twenty second time? Who's it about?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Well? I know, but I also that because it's about
a very famous man. I mean, if you've ever been
as associated if you're a female anything, who does anything,
and you're associated with the very famous male, that becomes
such a huge feature about who you are and nothing else.
And so yeah, you don't want to talk about it
(14:14):
over and over again. There's that point of view. I
would imagine that just hearing you tell that story, I
was thinking, yeah, I don't want to talk about him again.
Thank you. Wouldn't that be nice if I didn't have to?
You know what I mean that's what she was probably thinking.
But I feel like the thing that people that you're
(14:37):
really really the closest to when you share about them,
I don't think I would ever, and I never have
done it in a malicious way. I kind of gave
(14:57):
up writing that way when I was a lot younger,
writing angrily and about certain people. But I think that's
I'm just built as someone who's my whole, Like my
(15:23):
power in this world is somebody who can approach emotions
a little bit more head on than a lot of
people around me. I've noticed and and I may not
do that. I may not live a very public here's
what I think, here's what I know kind of way,
(15:44):
But it's not that I'm not paying attention to those
details in life when I see them, even even in
little places that I'm walking by for a moment. You know,
I'm noticing feelings, people's feelings and perceptions that maybe someone's having.
(16:07):
And that's just how I think. That is how I
am made, And the more I use that when I'm writing,
the better off I think I am personally well.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Going back to the channeling thing, I remember talking with
cap Power Sean Marshall, who's a friend she was saying
that she like she would hear that voice when she
was like three years old, you know, and like that
just it was kind of like a protector, and so
she always was tapped into it. Sit down, I'm curious
for you. When did you discover that you had that empathy,
(16:46):
that sort of, for lack of a better term, superpower
to see other people's feelings. Was it something we discovered
from a very young age.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
I didn't really know that that was true until I
got a lot older. And now I keep I do notice.
I keep waiting for people to get out of junior high,
and I always say, wow, it's like you're all in
junior high because I think that there is a lack
(17:19):
of appreciation for those abilities. And there are plenty of
people with them that plenty of people that I say, they
know how to be grown up, so they know how
to feel and sense others and be aware of others.
But it isn't necessarily something that's been culturally encouraged. And
so I mean, people put more into you getting as
(17:42):
many degrees as possible and working as many hours as
possible than they do you becoming more empathetic and as
an artist, I feel very lucky, because I feel like
if I'm not doing that, and I'm really being a
lazy bum, you know, so there's no point in it
(18:06):
unless you're really trying to get to the truth of
things emotionally as much as you can, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
So for you, I mean, you know, what are those songs?
I talk about this with writers all the time. As
a songwriter, you're always, of course trying to do your
best work, but as a songwriter, you can never write
your best work. Paul McCartney thought he could do better
than yesterday. That's why I kept going. Brian Wilson, I
talked to you about God Only Knows. Ninety eight percent
(18:37):
of the world thinks God only Knows is the most
perfect song ever written. But you know, Brian Wilson always
thought he could do better. So for you, what have
been those moments where you feel that you've come closest
to the truth?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Ah that's a hard one and I'm not really sure
I'm willing to share that, but uh, I think that's funny.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
You can always put the fifth on this rend.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Okay. I think on this record, I think that the
song I wrote a song specifically about my mom. It
took me about four or five years too, and had
several different versions. And it because it's really in my
mind biographical and in a in a song way, not
(19:38):
in a biography kind of way. But there was some
there was something I needed to learn about my mom
before she went that I learned and I finally got
it in the line of a song on this particular record,
(19:58):
and and I think it I think looking back, it
took me about twelve years to learn this one particular thing,
or maybe more, maybe fifteen years to learn this one
particular thing about her and took it was a massive,
massive process that was just this one little line where
(20:20):
I went, Okay, I understood, I do understand this part
of her. It makes everything. Okay, it makes everything okay.
I don't think i'm'll tell you what it is, but
I do feel like it was me getting around to
that that was really I love that when that happens,
(20:45):
and when you're writing.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Well, I didn't ask you what it was, but I
have been I'm curious, but I won't ask, But now
I am curious. Do you think you would have figured
it out without music or was it something a song
lad you help figure out?
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Definitely would not figure it out without music. I think
that that is the thing, that it's this thing that
I actually know how to do well enough to bring
those things out, have a good reason to feel those things,
and and so yeah, I don't think I would know
(21:32):
any I think that I've been very lucky getting to
be a songwriter because it or a writer of any kind,
because it's allowed me to grow in certain ways that
other people don't get to necessarily spend enough time in
their lives so because they're too busy, you know, doing
(21:59):
other things things.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
That's my job, you know, right well, and the other
thing of course too. I was going to say, having
lost both parents as well, you know, usually you're so
busy afterwards just dealing with the logistics of stuff that
you don't really get a chance to sort of process
it and think about stuff. So for you, though, because
you were able to channel it into writing into making
an album, do you feel like you were you know,
(22:25):
had that advantage of having more time to sort of
not as well but think and to understand it. Well.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
I'm also really lucky because I have three brothers and
three sisters that are older than me and very organized
about life and smart in this way that I'm not
so as far as that I can't take credit for
really handling very much of those logistics. Have she passed away,
(22:55):
I was really be there now person when it was
going on, and that kind of stuff has gone to
other people in my family. So I'm pretty fortunate that way.
But what were you saying? I can't remember.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
I know, I was just saying that you were saying,
you're very lucky to be a writer. And I was saying,
typically even if you know, or you're busy consoling your
brothers and sisters, or you're doing family stuff, or you're
cleaning out the house, or you're dealing with the estate.
So because they do, you know, you don't get the
chance to really process for a long time what happened.
And you were saying that, and I was asking for
(23:39):
you as a writer, do you feel like you maybe
got to deal with stuff more because you get or
it's interesting right. I was talking with Luke Steele from
the band Empire of the Sun earlier this year, great band,
and he had lost his father right before on the
road and yeah, they play arenas, and he was talking
about how cathartic it was to be having the singlelongs
every night with fans on stage, and that was like
(24:02):
this feeling of being alive and the spirit, you know,
and for you do you feel like because you get
to share this with an audience as well, that it
does bring a little bit of healing because there is
a communal feeling, I.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Think, I hope. So I mean that to me that
I think that's the point. I don't know if it's
even a point on any literal level, but it, you know,
it definitely to me is the point of for me
personally when I go see music, when I go stand
in a room where people are playing music, that that's
kind of what I hope for, you know. So I
(24:39):
hope so I hope that it does have some healing
to offer. And I think, my my, when I'm doing
my my personal best and doing the thing that I
am better at doing, it's it's got it. It's got
that involved. Definitely, U something of my heart is in there,
(25:04):
all right.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
So now, obvious question, what's one of the most healing
shows you've seen? Those shows where you best experienced a
communal feeling or that just blew you away the most.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I've been seeing a lot more music lately, so, uh, well,
you know, what And I'm not just kissing her butt
because I'm going to be on the road with her
in the fall. But I never saw Ricky Lee Jones
until this summer, and I saw her from the side
of the stage and she made me we're doing a
(25:48):
cobill and she made me go second, which is not
where you want to be. And because A I wanted
to see the show, and B I don't want to
follow her. But she absolutely I'm such a fan. Talk
about like starting to relate to somebody, somebody's songs on
(26:15):
a personal level, like, oh, I understand that, and I've
never heard anybody sing about that before in that way.
Is Ricky Lee Jones for me? I think I was
a teenager, you know when she showed up and I
was just really grateful that she could do that. I
felt healed, I felt like nourished by that, you know,
(26:37):
like in this very profound way, because I do connect
to her. I connected to her, and I've connected to
her for like fifty years, you know, and so it's
really it was thrilling to get to see a show
that was that magical. It was she blew me away.
(27:02):
There's nothing there wasn't a single thing about it that
didn't make any sense. Everything made sense about it. There's
something about an artist that's been doing it for that long, too,
that it's really exciting to see. I've seen John Prine
do those. I've seen maybe Staple do those. I've seen
shows like that from older artists a lot. I saw
(27:25):
Johnny Cash one year, he was in his seventies I
Tell your Eye Bluegrass Festival, and he was solo. He
played with the band, but he also played solo, and
he had June was there going on and off the stage,
(27:51):
and I don't know, it's just something about I don't
know how it works formance, I don't know why it works,
but it does work, and that it does at all.
It's just so it's like it's like why people probably
go to church, I guess, you know, you know, I
(28:13):
think it's it's like they want to have that lift
and that feeling come through them. And from all those
people I mentioned have had that at different times. So,
but I've seen shows, little shows in town that have
been phenomenal, you know, it just stuff at local stuff
(28:35):
in Austin that's been beautiful. And you know, anyway, music
just I think music does that, you know, hopefully it
does well.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
And I think that's interesting about it. It's funny the
name of the podcast I do is called in service
of and it's kind of you know, it started off
being more about philanthropy, but in talking with so many musicians,
where I realized is that music, by nature is just
being in service of. It's whether you're in service to
the music, whether you're in service to the fans, and
especially now you know, at a time when fans are
(29:10):
so in need of well that healing, you know, so
can you talk about what being in service of means
and how you get back?
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Well, I have a whole record called Servant of Love,
So I'm onto that. I'm onto that concept. And I
think especially too, if you've had if you've been a
musician in this time period and there in our culture
(29:43):
and you've gotten to do it mainly that's the only
thing you do to make your you know, bread and butter,
that it does consume your life. So like, after a
certain point you realize that your main relationship is with
(30:04):
that audience, you know, like that that's that's the one
that you're standing up for over and over and over again.
And it kind of takes that I've never been able
to figure out another way to do it and to
have like a personal life that says well developed as
(30:29):
a show, you know. And I really I don't think
there's anything wrong with that. I think if that's that's
my strength, and that's my strength, and yeah, and I
think and it's interesting as a grown up person. I mean,
I hang out with a lot of musicians, but I
(30:51):
also hang out with a lot of service people, people
who were service people, you know, retired service people, people
who owned you know, we're like in retail, people that
cut hair, people that didn't make up, people that you know,
just really we're doing real service. I'm always blown away
(31:14):
by watching like nurses and you know, people that really
know how to do that stuff and do it so
you feel cared for and nourished, you know. I mean,
it's like, I think everybody has a lot of people
have service jobs and they're not necessarily recognized as such,
(31:36):
not just musicians, you know. So and it's also to
me it should hopefully will become more exalted. I'm glad
to hear that you have a podcast called that, because
I feel like I've been in service jobs my entire
life before I was a musician. I was in a
service job.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
It was in some kind of job where I was
trying to achieve something for somebody else. And I'm really
much more comfortable of doing that than anything else. You know.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Well, I think that makes sense. I think that's why
a lot of people gravitate to music or music is like,
it's interesting. I don't know if i'd say that there
are musicians, you know, because that's the calling. But I
think by you know, having it as a calling, with that,
it coincides with being someone being in service up. As
an artist, you naturally are in service up, is what
(32:33):
I'm trying to say.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Not well, but yeah, yeah, definitely, for sure, I'm also
in the service of these guys.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Nice how old?
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Well, this is Buster, It's Buster, he's mine, He's I
think it's like, I think he's eight or nine. I
don't really know, because I got him a couple of
years ago and they said he was four, which always
means he's a.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah, I rescued an eight year old who was actually
about twelve.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
And this is uh and this his girlfriend is visiting
Linda Ronstat. Her name is Linda Ronstadt. So he goes
out with Linda Ronstatt and she comes and stays with
us sometimes.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Have you ever met the real Linda on stat.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I have a couple of times. She's really cool.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, So okay, now I'm just curious. This is a fan.
I'm gonna ask you, what's your favorite Linda Ronstadt song?
Speaker 2 (33:40):
That's tough.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
I remember listening to a long long time, over and
over and over again when I was young and learning
how to sing, because she does have a way of
singing that is astonishing. It's pristine and when you watch
your dot, when you would watch your do it, she
didn't look like she was really making a lot of effort.
(34:06):
And there's so much volume and power in it, and
a long long time is she takes that power and
she kind of dials it down into this little small
space and holds it there and it sounds and it's
also really hard thing to do. It's a really hard
thing to do what she's doing, and it makes this
(34:28):
tension happen that you know, it breaks your heart. You know.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I was going to say, you want to talk about
a song that conveys a lot of emotion?
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Yeah, yeah, Well, we only.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Have a few minutes left on the zoom so what
is it that you want to ask? Well, I'm going
to ask you leikly about going on tour with Ricky
I mean, after fifty years, thirty years, forty years, whatever
it is of touring, does the fact that you get
to do that, go out with someone that you've always
admired just keep it fresh and more fun for you?
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Yes, I don't think I've I've been fans of people
as I've gone along. I've I've worked with so many
people that I'm fans of, but this is on another
level for me. Ricky Lee's on another level. You know,
I didn't really connect to another white lady singer songwriter
(35:28):
in my youth until she. I got how good people were,
but I didn't feel like that, oh wow, this is
my person until Ricky Lee showed up. And so I've
never gotten to really even meet her until this summer.
(35:51):
And she's probably totally freaked out that I'm such a
yucky fan, but but but she's very very sweet about it,
and and it's incredible. It's just like this powerful, powerful
thing to hear her, you know, up close like that.
So I'm very excited I get to do that. I'm
(36:13):
going to have to because she's making me go last,
which is her right. She's you know, she can do
whatever she wants. She gets to go to bed earlier.
That way, I'll have to have my shit together before
her show, so then I get to watch her show
(36:34):
before you know mine. I'm not getting ready while she's playing.
So anyway, very excited, very cool.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Well we're almost at a time when the zoom. Is
there anything that you want to add that I'd not
ask you about.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
No, I'm good, Thank you very much for everything.
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