January 21, 2026 • 39 mins
On this week's In Service Of, Grammy-winning singer/songwriter/Matchbox Twenty frontman Rob Thomas joins Steve Baltin to talk about his most recent solo album, hanging out with legends like George Michael and Willie Nelson, among others.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey to Steve Balton.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
This week on in Service, I am dulled to be
joined by Rob Thomas, Grammy winning front man for Matchbox twenty,
solo artist, songwriter, straordinaire, all around cool dude.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I have known Rob for years.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
It's a really fun conversation of talking about so many things,
including how he randomly became friends with the great George Michael.
So very informative, educational conversation and just fun.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Hope you enjoyed this one as much.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
As I did.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Today's the fifteenth anniversary Born to Run, which is my
favorite album of all time, so I was just writing
about it right on. So, you know, favorite album of
all time.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Now I'm curious all time shit, And I mean the
first one that pops up is Full Moon Fever. I mean,
I think that might be the one that I've worn
out the most. But there's also Willie Nelson had a
record called Greatest Hits and Some That Will Be which
(01:22):
I just thought was a great title and it had,
you know, it had some of those songs like heroes
have Always been Cowboys, but it also had like have
to be Crazy, And that was like one of the
first albums I ever bought, so that one. Like even
when I see the cover, it like hits a little
special spot.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I fucking love Willie Nelson. I just interviewed him a
couple of months, agother like the coolest guy in the world.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
In the world. I spent a year like in his
universe because I wrote three songs for him, and then
we did one of them together on Letterman, and then
he had Matchbox twenty come be his backup band for
a TV show for like one of his seventy something birthday,
And I just spent like for a year, I just
kept orbiting. I was, you know it spent a lot
of time hanging on his bus and listening to these
(02:04):
unbelievable stories and like just such a story. I mean
obviously through his music, you know you can tell he's
a storyteller. So like when you actually get a chance
to like get with you know, just get in the
tractor beam of him, it feels very special.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I will let's take a let's take a step back
for a second. We're gonna come on to your wonderful
in a minute, but just think about that for a second. Right.
I know you've worked with Carlos, I know you worked
with a lot of people imagine the thought of like
for you as a kid, knowing that you would write
songs for the dude who fucking wrote crazy Man.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
I when I heard I sat in my house when
I was still living in Briarcliff in Westchester, and I
got the three songs back, the first like kind of
early stages of it when Willy sang them, and I
cried real tears in my living room, just like just
hearing his that voice that growing up in the South,
like it was Willy Whaling, you know, like murle, like
(03:02):
that was it. And so hearing that voice saying my
words was just fucking I don't know, it still is.
It's still one of my proudest things in my life.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, I mean, because it's funny because you think of
him as like, you know, to me, he's like one
of the greatest songwriters of all time, so you think,
like why would he be picking you know why?
Speaker 4 (03:22):
I mean if I had never done anything else, and
I would do like and I was just sitting around
telling my friends, you know that I wrote three songs
for Willian Nelson, I would, you know, I would. I
would dine out on that, you know, for the rest
of my life. He's more than that, man. I mean
he's like he is a he's a piece of American history,
but not like but Americana, you know, because he's always
(03:42):
been a hippie. He's always been going against the grain.
He's always you know, been anti establishment. You Like, my
wife when she met him, she's like, oh, he's just
a sweet guy. And I was like, he's not fucking sweet.
He's Willing Nelson, Like he used to fight and fuck
and you know, drink his way through America.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, but she's right, he is a sweet guy.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
He is a sweet sweet man.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah. It's funny because I mean, to me, the kind
of guy who represents that more than anyone is Christmastofferson,
who I've always been fascinated with and was the coolest dude.
But yeah, all of those guys were amazing.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
My manager when he was younger, Like, I used to
get mistaken for Chris Christopherson all the time, and because
he was you know, he was managing like willing to
George Michael and David Bowie and he was you know,
he was always out amongst music people. So people would
always be like Chris, and he's like, I'm not Chris,
I'm not Chris.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Hey, your manager would get mistaken for Chris.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Yeah all the time.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Okay, wait, your manager managed David Bowie and George Michael.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
Yeah. He managed David Bowie during the Diamond Dogs period
and then he was managed he managed George during the
Faith period and then again right at the end of
his life.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Interesting. Do you ever get to meet George?
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Oh? Many times? Yeah. My last memory of George is
him and I went to go see Avatar together in
Australia and then got into a fight in the elevator
on the way out about whether it was good or not.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
You know, I never saw Avatar, so I don't know
if it was any good, but I mean it's funny.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
Because he asked George. He would tell you, no, well.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
George is You know. He was an interesting dude because
I had to interview him only once for an hour,
and he was so funny because he knew that most
critics didn't stand him, and he was like, I remember
telling him that. You know, for me, I grew up
as a medal kid, right, So for me growing up
in the eighties, I was medal kids, so I was
like waym now. And then you know, I got married
to someone he loved, George. So I was like, fuck it,
I'll do the interview the coolest fucking guy you'll ever meet.
(05:40):
And I was telling him, you know, like, oh, you know,
I did this basically because my wife and he started
laughing and he's like, do you know how any critics
I've whard that from.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Did you when you interviewed him? Was it pre Faith
or was it after Faith?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I was watching this for the tour he did, the
last story he did of America.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Oh okay, yeah, I was there. I was at the
New York show for that. You know. My wife and
I went on tour with him around when he did Europe,
and like, you know, we would go like we'd go
to Rome for a few days and then the tour
would arrive there and we'd all hang out and see
the show and then go to Greece. But it was
amazing because, you know, at a time where people in
America were like, you know, whatever happened to George Michael
And then we're overseas and he's playing to sixty thousand people,
(06:19):
you know, in Rome and sixty thousand people in Greece, Like,
I think it's part of the culture over there. They
don't eat their young as much, and so I feel like,
you know, there's a they have a reverence for for
musicians that they grew up with, and you know, and
older musicians in Europe than they do here.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Well, it's interesting. Again, we'll come under your record in
a second. It's so wonderful, But I have to ask
because you know, it's funny to me George is like,
besides sprints, he's like the greatest male pop star of
all time, you know, but.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
Sure, and also one of the best producers.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Oh go ahead, Sorry I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Also. I mean a lot of people don't realize that,
you know, he was he wrote and produced all of
that stuff like that's that production was stellar.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. You know, it's
interesting talk about what you learned being around people like that,
just in terms of because I mean, the things they've
gone through. You know, what he went through with faith,
We talked about it. I mean that would destroy most people.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Yeah, I mean, and then you know everything that happened
with him in Anselmo, like everything in his personal life.
H I you know, watching George perform, I learned the
power of being still on stage.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Like.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
I was always fidget eat, you know, and like felt
like you've got to be doing something. But to watch
him alone on a stage, command tens and tens of
thousands of people and just stand there and like the
longer he stood there, the louder they would get, you know,
and like he'd never felt the need to pander to them.
He was like performing for them. And so like I
(07:50):
think he as a performer. I mean, there's a few
guys him in a much different way. Dave Gahan I
think is one of the best. Michael Hutchins probably one
of the best performers. Yeah, any Lenox, you know, uh,
I mean there's just a few that, like I think
if you're if you're paying attention, every everything can be school.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
You know, well everything should be school. I mean, especially
when you're around people, you know, who've gone through so much,
too experienced so much.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Yeah, I mean, I you know, one of the things
I got from Mick Jagger was that that he writes
like I write, which was a very comforting thing to
see him like fuss around with a melody and kind
of like see like form the lyric that he's trying
to find, you know, and like kind of sus it
out in his head. Only when he does it, he
does it like Mick Jagger, you know. But other than that,
(08:45):
it was, you know, it's it's it's it's inspiring to see,
you know, anytime that you can kind of like gleam,
especially because writing is such a it's such a weird
magical thing because it's like a hearing a song that
doesn't exist yet. You just hear a melody and some
radio station that's in your head and trying to pull
it down and conjure it up into like a physical thing.
(09:06):
It's always like, every time I do it, I feel
like the most creative person in the world, and then
within a day I feel like I'm a fucking hack again,
and I have to go write another song to start
feeling creative again.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Well, you know, it's funny because I started talking to
people a couple of years ago the fact that, like
you know, writing is so much like channeling and like
like you're saying, a song will come down to you
have no idea why. But it's funny. Of all people,
the one that I talk to who interested me the most,
and I mean I talked to everybody around about this,
and like Jimmy Cliff was telling me, you know, he
wrote Harderly Comment ten minutes all the way to the studio,
(09:36):
which is like one of the guys. But Mike Stolar
right ninety years old co wrote stand by Me Jailhouse Rock.
To me, stand by Me is as perfect as a
song as ever existed, and he's like, I have no
idea where songs come from ninety years old. He's like,
who knows, No one will ever know. And it's like
that's kind of reassuring a way to hear it, because
it's like, there is no way to explain it.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
No.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
It's funny because if I when I hear a song
that inspires me, the first couple listens, it feels like
fucking voodoo. And then and then I look at it
again and I go, oh, it's I see the structure.
This is a verse, and there's your chorus and there's
your like it it's not, but it somehow it gets
(10:21):
like painted over with this kind of magical sheen, Like
the right lyric and the right melody at the right
you know, just at that right space. It feels like
it's magic. And I'm like, I don't know how they
got there, Like I know all the ingredients. I have
all the ingredients in my kitchen to make that fucking cake,
but for some reason I didn't make that cake.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
You know, it's funny. I always look at this to me,
like the song like in my life, right, that's one
of my favorite songs of all time, And it's funny.
What makes John Lennon's stuff so special to me is
like I was trying to decide if I wanted to
use the word special significant. But it's funny because in
my life it's one of those songs that feels so simple.
You feel like everybody thinks like, oh, I could have
(10:57):
written that, and then it's like, well, yeah, maybe you
think he could have. But in the history of the
universe all me, John Lennon could write that.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Yeah. And in fact, you know, if you look at
like the Beatles in general, you know, like that they
it was kind of like PI like Python. You know,
there's python esque, there's Beatlesque, Like they created a thing.
And if it wasn't for that existing, there were so
many other things along the way, and you know, in
the future that would have never existed, you know, because
(11:26):
of that influence, not just in pop culture, you know,
in some ways those every kid just like Elvis did,
like every kid that grabbed and just wanted to, you know,
play his broom to look like Elvis. You know, there
are kids that wanted to look like the Beatles, but
then just musicality. Like I always joked that, like the
Beatles brought chords to America, you know, they brought numbered
chords to America. Nobody cared about a flat ninth at
(11:50):
that time, you know, until all of a sudden the
Beatles started, you know, really digging their heels in.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
That's the last question on this, then the obvious one,
and then we'll come on to your record. You know,
what's the one Beatles song you wish you'd written? And why?
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Oh man? Just one?
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Well it's funny because to me, I was separated by
McCarty and Lennon. So my two favorite Beatles songs are
Golden Slumbers, McCarty and Lenin in my life, you know,
So if you want to pick two, you go for it.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Well, no, I'll say, and I don't know why, but
it makes There's a song, the song Two of Us.
Even though it's a very happy song, it's it makes
me very sad. And I think because I mean because
it is. It is dipped in sadness, right, like when
he says you and I have memories longer than the
road that stretches out ahead. And I think maybe at
(12:43):
sixteen because that wasn't true, I didn't get it as
much as I do at fifty three.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
That makes sense, I mean, And it's funny going back
to your stuff. Then are there songs that you know?
I feel like songs change over time because of course,
you know, songs change because you have different experiences you
bring to it. You know, So like a song, for example,
(13:12):
that you know you wrote when you're twenty or twenty five, right,
it's a whole different thing for you now because you've
had a whole life for it.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I've
always tried to do is try and continue to keep
writing to be as visceral as possible and like not
try to not try to know what I think I'm
writing about it, what kind of style I'm writing, and
not worry about genres and just like write to my mood.
And you know, because of that, Like, there are certain
songs from like the first Matchbox twenty albums that we
(13:42):
don't play anymore because when we listen to them now,
they don't sound genuine. There's a sort of like nineties
manufactured angst in there that maybe didn't feel manufactured at
the time. But we don't feel that angst now. And
I think us like being on stage like some of
those really dark nineties I don't care, man, you know,
like that doesn't feel like us anymore, and so playing
(14:04):
those songs feels disingenuine and you know, and that's why
you know, some of the songs now, I'm not afraid
to be sentimental or schmoltzy, you know, are happy or
yacht rocky. You know, I just don't care anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I love the fact that you said that they're right,
because one of my favorite bands of all time is
Nine and Snails. I'm got l love Nine in Snails.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
Pretty Hate Machine was like one of my seminal records
of my of my childhood.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
It's one of the seminal records of all time. Right.
I've seen Nine in Snails thirty something times. I remember
the last two are seeing it and just thinking to myself.
You know, Trent's married with kids, an Oscar winner. I
just like, what are you saying his seabout anymore? Dude,
it just doesn't feel like you know.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
I wonder like a fifth because of him, because of
like he has his personal life, then he has his
film score life, and then I wonder if for someone
like him, there's Trent Resnor is like Trent Resnor has
wife and kids and Nine Inch Nails is it is
like a character that he embodies, you know, like he's
part he's part of like a soap proper that's been
going for thirty years and this is his main character
(15:11):
is Nine Inch Nails.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
You know, well, I mean a lot of people have said,
you know, and it's true. I mean it's funny because
you know, for you, I don't know if there are
songs that you still tap back into in a way,
because it's like, even though now you've had this whole life,
you do have that experience. But it's funny because I
look at like, right, Patti Smith, who I love, who
I've talked to, is the nicest, sweetest woman in the
world when you are you not on stage, But she
(15:34):
says when she gets on stage, she becomes like half animal.
It's just some people when they get on stage just
take on a whole different personality.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Yeah, I think I think that, you know, the me
on stage is taller than the me in real life.
And I think the me on stage is cooler than
this the me in real life, and sometimes a little
more wise. But I think, you know, I've always like
(16:06):
my there are certain groups that are like they got
their start and they spoke to maybe like a certain
disenfranchised group, and they became like the you know, the
beacon for this group of people. You know, they became
the beacon for maybe it's a political activism, or maybe
it's social outcastism, or you know what I mean. And
(16:28):
I think that I've written songs for years just about
how people relate to each other, you know, I've been
writing songs about moments that all of us have and
then how those moments make you feel. And I think
that there's a universal thing there, which means it's much
more of an everyman, you know, like when I'm on stage,
(16:48):
I'm one of you, Like we're we're in this moment together,
like we're just sharing by the campfire kind of a thing,
you know, more than I'm this guy performing for you.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
That's interesting though, because I did it book a couple
of years ago called Anthems We Love right where I
talked about all these different songwriters about how those songs
involved over the years and became an anthem. And it
was interesting, right because you know, I talked to Neil
Diamond about Sweet Caroline, Brian Wilson, God only knows, Robbie
Creeker Light My Fire. But two of the most interesting
ones were talked to Graham Nash about Our House and
Daryl Hall about Sarah Smile. And what was so interesting
(17:34):
was those songs were literally written for one person and
became anthems loved by millions. And the reason why they're
talking about is because it captures a feeling that everybody
wants so for you have there been songs you've written
and we can bring it out of the album. I mean, baby,
it happens on here too, where there are songs you've
written that were so personal. You're kind of surprised by
(17:54):
the fact that, like other people identify with it in
the way that I was talking with Brandy Clark, who
great songwriter in Nashville, about writing a song about her
grandmother and like, who the fuck would think the song
about your grandmother smoking your drinking would be like blow
up by so many people, But millions of people have
that kind of grandmother I did.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Yeah, I think, you know, I always say that, like
if I write a song about me and my wife
and something very personal and it's very special, that it's specific,
let's say that her and I have gone through, It's
not my job to tell you the listener that specific
thing that my wife and I went through. It's my
(18:34):
job to write about how that thing makes me feel,
because you probably understand that feeling and it you know,
it attributes to something totally different. Like three Am is
a song that I've I've played every show solo or
matchbox for the last thirty years, and it was a
song for me about when my mom when I was
young and my mom had cancer and I had to
(18:55):
take care of her. But I mean, it's been it's
been played at people's weddings, you know, it's been you know,
it's been used for familiar relationships, romantic relationships, you know, friendships,
and people have just attached it to their lives in
whatever way sees fit. And I think that that's the job.
Like I think, I think the writer should be fucking
(19:20):
not like non existent in the song. You know, the
song should be like something that it feels like a
suit that I made for you.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Right. That's interesting because you take it onto a new album,
like for example, what was the oh through Me is
one of the songs on the record I love.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
Yeah, I mean through Me is a song I think
that it can only like I could only write because
I've been with my wife for twenty seven years, you know,
and because we've been to the brink of it and
almost over and then got stronger because of it, and
you know, and that's and I think because of that,
without having to mention, that that song resonates with a
lot of older people who have been married or together
for a very long long time.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Right, So it's interesting. I have you heard from people
already about that? And it's funny because again that's one
of the things that interests me is like people come
back to you now, and especially in this day and
age versus even when you started, you know, where people
didn't have the reach to you, and now they can
like tell you how a song means to them or whatever.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Yeah, you know it was funny Steve, is that the
first night I played it, it was before it was
before anyone had ever heard it. Like I think I
just recorded it, and but I did a you know,
my wife and I have a foundation called Sidewalk Angels,
and every year in Atlantic City, I do a show
or a run of shows, sometimes acoustics storytellers, you know,
(20:43):
and I played thrill Me, you know, just this unreleased,
never before heard song, and a couple friends of ours there,
even they're just even a little bit older than me,
I think there maybe like in their late fifties, came back,
you know at the end of the show with tears
in their eyes talking about thrill Me and how much
it meant to them, like immediately as they were listening
to it. And I think, I mean, I think that's
(21:05):
that's amazing, you know, the fact of you know, this
isn't a song that they had time to live with,
like they listened to the lyrics in real time and
it really attached that, you know, into their DNA. And
so yes, oh that's right, Madi. My wife was just
reminded me there was a young couple who just got
engaged when I played like during that song at my
show the other night.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
All right, so you know it's got to be like
I've talked about so many people, right, it's one of
those things like you have hit records, you can have
all the success. Well when you have songs that create
that impact for people, it means so much more. So
have there been those songs over the years or even
you know, it's funny because some the solbm isn't you
now yet, but you know still since you're doing live
(21:48):
people do you get to hear? And of course now
in this day and age, it goes on YouTube and
so it's like even if you know, even if you
only do it to one city, people in other places
know it. So have you been like again surprised or
pleasantly surprised with the response where people just gravitate songs
and like latch onto them.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
So what we've been doing is but you know, we
play some of the songs, like you know, there's been
three released out on you know, you can get on Spotify.
They're out in the world, picture Perfect, Thrill Me and
Hard to Be Happy. And there's two other songs that
aren't released yet that we that we play live. But
what we've done is the first one we open the
show with because we ride the excitement of the first song,
(22:30):
so people are more receptive to listen into something. Nube
and it's a big, bombastic song. And the same thing
with the song all night Days, we start the encore
with it, and I'm really amazed at how at the
end of all night days, like the Roar is it's
like like it was a hit song. I think it's
just because it's got such a good live energy. And also,
like you said, you know, for fans that have been
(22:51):
coming to like multiple shows throughout the tour, you know,
we try and mix it up. We want to play
different songs you know, here and there and make sure
that you know, it's not exactly the same every night.
But after like the first show, the real hardcore fans
they've gone back. They spend their time before the next show.
They learned from YouTube those new songs, and I see
them in the front you know front rows singing now
(23:13):
every word to a song that's not even released yet,
and so I just applaud that kind of you know,
ingenuity vacation.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, well, it's funny. I'm sure when you were a kid,
therese were those records. I remember, you know, being you know,
such a hardcore music geek, I would always collect bootlegs, so,
like I remember getting the demos for like Red Zeppelin
four right online and stuff. Yeah, I mean, was there
one song that kind of jump started this record that
you know, like, was there one song that you wrote
(23:41):
first that was like, Okay, now I'm ready to do
a solo record or was it something that just kind
of because you know, of course, now twenty twenty five,
you can literally just put out songs every week if
you want, or like, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
I almost did that, Like I almost started. And I
was telling you talking with my label at the time
when I was on Atlantic, about you know, go into
that phase in my career maybe where I just start
releasing a couple songs at a time here and there.
But then there was so much time had been passing,
and I was just writing enough material that I kind
of felt like they all they all belonged together, you know,
(24:14):
and so maybe I'm just not there yet. I think
I started with the opening song on the record, a
song called Hand in My Hand, and back in twenty twenty,
right before everything shut down, Matchbox twenty was supposed to
go on tour, but we weren't going to make a record,
and I was gonna release a few solo songs, and
(24:38):
I wrote Hand in My Hand and we were kind
of gearing up to see if we're gonna make a
solo record or if I was just gonna release songs,
and then everything kind of fell to shit for a
few years, and I just kind of sat on it.
And then while I was sitting on it, I started
writing hard to Be Happy, and I started writing thrill me,
and then I started writing like, there's two songs on
the last Matchbox twenty record, Queen of New York City
(25:00):
and don't get me wrong that I would have been
on my solo record, but then made it onto the
Matchbox record. And then there was like the song I
Believe It on this record was supposed to be on
the Matchbox record, but then it wound up on my
solo record. So it was a long process of just
because for me, I just write all the time, and
then when it's time to do something, I kind of
(25:20):
look at what I've gotten, see, you know, does any
of it make a record? And then maybe only half
of it does, and that means I got to go
back to the drawing board and write another six cons
because when I really look at it, I think, shit,
I've only got six good songs like I've been I've
got three albums of material, but I've only got six
good songs.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
That's funny. I mean, are the ones that you go
back to you? And the reason I asked it because
I just interviewed the other day John Fogerty, and you
want to talk about one of the aw song great songwriters, yea.
And he was saying, you know, he just did the
like I gues See album more. He revisited all the strungs,
you know. Yeah, I was asking him how the song's
hold up for him, And it's funny. He was saying
what I would always tell people at the time is
(26:10):
I would write ten songs for every one song. So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
That's exactly how I am. It's funny. When we made
our second record, Matchbox, we were in Atlanta and uh,
maybe in Nashville. The time doesn't matter, but uh, one
whole day, just out of nowhere, John Fogerty came by
the studio and just hung out with us all day.
I think we were recording the song if You're Gone
at the time, and like we were just putting in
(26:35):
those Chicago style horns, you know. And I was like
so nervous because I was like, shit, I don't know
I John Fogey's gonna like these horns, you know, but
anybody really, but he really loved them, and he was
just a fan of of of our first record and
that that was a really exciting day. All right.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
So now I gotta ask, you know, I mean, it's
funny because like you said, you know, John Fogerty says,
you know, I'll write ten songs for everyone that gets released,
but then again for you know, just like a Fogerty,
there's a spring scene and he's like, I'm not gonna
release it. I'm not gonna release it. Okay, cool, Now
I'm gonna put out seven fucking amazing albums at once.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Yeah, I mean, but that guy's a fucking alien like
like during that whole period from like the Rising, when
it was just like boom boom boom, boom boom and
in there, you know, you've got great, good, really good songs,
but then you've got like, I mean, girls in their
summer clothes and and devils and dust like and this
is a man. This was he was in his sixties,
(27:29):
you know. I was. I was at Rock and Rio.
We played Rock and Rio and the night before Bruce
was playing Rock and Rio at like at midnight, and
so because of that, we were all at the same hotel,
and my wife was the only person that bought good wine,
right because all the wine at the hotel, I guess,
(27:49):
had been shitty. So y'all and Winter saw me and
saw Madi with the good wine and came over and
sat down and we were hanging out by the pool,
and then Bruce comes out and I sat for about
forty minutes and just talked about music with with with Bruce,
and then he knew so much more about my career
than I would have ever expected, like in that he
(28:09):
knew how many solo records I had made, how many
matchbox records I had made, like where I was at
in my career, and telling me how I you know,
I'm probably going to hit a like a fallow period,
and I need to not worry about that because that's
just generation suiting up for the next generation to you know,
to come in and become a part of it. And
it was and you know, and then I went, like
a couple months later, I went to and saw his
(28:31):
second to last Broadway the show, and I got to
go back and talk to him after that, Like his
his memory is is just ridiculous. And when you listen
to him speak, you understand why he's so prolific because
he almost he thinks in conversationally in terms of like
like it sounds like a song sometimes, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting though, because one of the things
I ask people is, you know, and and I'm always
curious about, are there people you've gotten to hang out
with so many of these you know, icons who've been
able to evolve and grow in these different ways? Are
there people that you really admire and that you look
at for your career, for the way that they grow
and evolve. And it's funny because you know, some are
(29:16):
obvious like Springsteen, Tom Waits, and other than someone like
Chris Cornell, who has a bit of friends with and
a big fan of it. It's like, you know, there's
a guy who was like a huge fan and wanted
to be Jeff Buckley, and he told me he wanted
to be Tom Waits when you're young, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
I was. I had gotten friendly with Chris just before
a little while before he passed him and I met
at we both did the Kennedy Center Honors for the
Who together and we sat at the same table, and
you know, we both had a lot of friends in common,
people that we knew coming up, and so we we
we became like like text buddies, you know, and like
every couple of weeks we just check in to see
(29:52):
what we're at, what we're doing. He was such a sweet,
sweet guy, you know, like for that, for that that
rock and roll song. Who you know, I think as
much as the only other person I could think maybe
Eddie Vedder and Kurt Cobain or the only other two
(30:12):
that kind of personified that period of music that was
coming out, you know, like just when you see them
or when you think of that time, those are three
faces that you think of, and so like it's it
becomes synonymous with this rage and this anger. But there
was such a sweet, soft quality to him, and that
that's why when you go back and listen to those records,
that's what made them so special is they weren't performative rage.
(30:35):
They were layered introspective songs you know that had you
just happen to have an edge to them.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah. Now, the sweetest guy in the world, just the
nicest physician you know, and always so like would make
a point to like welcome you and make you feel special,
But I.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
Feel like you know, but I don't want to forget
this thread really quick, Steve. Sorry, but you know, I
feel like he's someone that the world didn't let explore
and experiment as many ways as he would have liked to.
You know, I think there was so he wanted to
try to do so many different things, and people didn't
want to accept that part of a Chris Cornell, you know,
(31:14):
because of what Chris Cornell meant to them, because their
Soundgarden t shirt meant more to them than like his
hopes and aspirations.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Unfortunately, again, you look at like George Michael and you
can say the same thing. I mean, fans, are you
know so in the way do you feel lucky that
you have you know, you're able to explore these different things,
and that you know you can go out and do
arenas with Matchbox twenty and then put out a solo album.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Yeah, I mean, I think I've got a really generous
group of fans who from the first that you know,
even within Matchbox twenty, those first three records, three Am
doesn't really sound like Bent and doesn't really sound like Unwell,
and certainly when I went solo, like none of that
sounds like lonely no More or but the fans have
allowed me to do that and kind of like explore
(31:58):
different genres. I think my voice is the unifying factor
in all of those things. It kind of links everything together.
And then hopefully, like I said, I never once was like,
oh I'm gonna try and make this record. I want
to make a pop song, or I want to make
this hard song, or I want to I just write
all the time, and and and if you if you
(32:19):
account for all those ten songs that nobody's ever gonna hear,
it's really not that big of a feat. It's just
the numbers game, like if you know it, like if
you if you're a good writer at all and you
write twenty songs, you're gonna write a good song, you know,
So you just keep just keep fucking writing.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
It's funny what you know as an artist, you're never satisfied.
As an artist, you cannot be satisfied. But what I
found from talking to people is you have those moments
that you really love and you know, like I've kind
of you know, talked to people about them. They're like
these moments of truth where you're never gonna be half
your perfect record, you can't because as an artist, if
(32:57):
you think you've made a perfect record, what's one of
going on? You know, I talked to Brian Wilson many times.
They got to know him, you know what I mean.
You can argue, and I will argue the greatest pop
song of all times. Scot only knows he still thought
he was doing more stuff, you know. So for you,
have there been those moments as a writer where you
feel like you know you're not there yet because you
(33:18):
can't be there yet, but you're so close to where
you want to get, Like those moments where you just
hit upon something that's just like, that's fucking special.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
I I think I'm in a place in my life
where early early on, even the good work that I did,
and so much of it even now when I listen back,
that I really would have changed. But you know, there's
certain staple Matchbox twenty songs that that I think worked,
(33:49):
even though for that very first part of your career
is like the first half of it anyway. I think
most people, you've got one eye on what you're doing,
but whether you want to or not, there's always another
on the fact that you know that you have to
do something that's going to compete, because that's going to
be the thing that's going to put your foot into
it and let you continue to be able to do it,
you know what I mean. And so success of your
(34:12):
record is a factor. And as I get older, I
love new people getting turned onto my music and I
love new people coming in. But I know also that
over the last thirty years I've amassed this small little
army of like minded people that are already initiated into
(34:32):
what I'm doing and just want to hear what I'm
gonna do next. And we have our own little group,
and we have our own little powwow together, and it's
it's more freeing in a lot of ways, because in
that way, I'm really just sometimes finding out, like getting
a little threat of a melody and following it down
the path and not worrying at all that it's gonna,
you know, never ever ever be something that's going to
(34:53):
be played on the radio. Like when when we made
the first record that's twelve swings to try and hit
a home run, you know, and we lucked out and
we hit like six of them on that first record,
But we didn't know that could ever happen. And so
you tried every song felt like it had to be
a song that should or could be on a radio
at the time, especially during that time when radio was
(35:14):
king right, And that was probably on the second record too,
and some of the third record. Every swing was trying
to swing for the fences. You didn't have time to
make a quiet, little introspective record that you knew only
fans that were going to listen to. Whereas now over
the last maybe twenty years or fifteen to twenty, it's
(35:34):
been a little easier for me to say, oh this,
I'm making this song and it's going to appeal. It's
going to mean a whole lot to a very small
amount of people.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
But it's funny to me, I mean, which do you
enjoy more? Because I look at someone like to me,
my favorite songwriter of all time is Tom Waits, who
has like the perfect career. You can walk into the market.
No one knows who the fucking is except for like
hardcore music gigs, but every song in the world swears
by his stuff, accomplish his stuff.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Great fruit Moon, Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm you know,
I'm really lucky, Like I my songs are way more
famous than I am like I could be hanging out
with somebody on a plane for hours and then they
could ask, you know, we could be having conversations about life,
and when they ask what I do, I'm a musician
sometimes Matchbox twenty. But if they you know, like we'll
(36:26):
communicate and then like they're like, oh shit, I know
like ten of your songs, you know, like I love
that song. I grew up on that song. And to me,
I mean, that's a that's a true as a musician.
It's a very I like that level of success, you know.
I like that people know my music a lot better
than they knew me. And if they know me, you know,
(36:48):
I walk around my neighborhood and it's and it's literally
just people like, hey, Rob, how you doing. I'm like, hey,
how are you? Man? You know nice boast by the way.
I mean, I love I love writing a song where
I'm like I think Willie Nelson would like this song,
or I feel like Bruce Springsteen would like this song.
But I also like a song that like I'm like,
(37:11):
we're gonna go on like we're gonna go on stage
and we're gonna fucking tear the place apart with this
song and then you know, I'm not above Like right now,
we got the news last night that Hard to Be
Happy crack the top twenty in radio, and I love
when that happens too, you know, But I just love it,
I think because again I wasn't swinging for everyone this time.
It's just some. But some of them, you know, some
(37:33):
of them still go over the fence even when you're
not trying.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Well, I think that's the best, when you're not trying,
because again, when you're trying, people feel it. Yeah, So
is there anything you want to add that I did
not ask you about?
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Are you asking me if there's anything interesting about myself
that I haven't told you yet.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Anything at this moment that's going on with you that's interesting,
you know.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Uh, No, man, we're you know, we're after next year,
just next year, we're going into the thirty anniversary, starting
the thirtieth anniversary of Matchbox twenty's first record. I'm you know,
I'm in this new place because I just left Atlantic
Records and immediately got picked up by Universal Republic, which
is a bigger label, and so it's you know, it's
(38:16):
nice to have landed into a nice family again.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
And Matchbox twenty I think is gonna be starting this
thing out, and we're gonna go for it independently and
do it and do our thirtieth anniversary and kind of
start building our own little team.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
And so we're excited about what next year is gonna bring. Maybe,
I'm sure maybe we'll be sitting talking again about that
next year.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Oh well, you guys listening. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
Also, by the way, going back to your first question,
that that's one of my all time favorite records as well.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
It is a fucking perfect album.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
Yeah,
Hey to Steve Balton.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
This week on in Service, I am dulled to be
joined by Rob Thomas, Grammy winning front man for Matchbox twenty,
solo artist, songwriter, straordinaire, all around cool dude.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I have known Rob for years.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
It's a really fun conversation of talking about so many things,
including how he randomly became friends with the great George Michael.
So very informative, educational conversation and just fun.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Hope you enjoyed this one as much.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
As I did.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Today's the fifteenth anniversary Born to Run, which is my
favorite album of all time, so I was just writing
about it right on. So, you know, favorite album of
all time.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Now I'm curious all time shit, And I mean the
first one that pops up is Full Moon Fever. I mean,
I think that might be the one that I've worn
out the most. But there's also Willie Nelson had a
record called Greatest Hits and Some That Will Be which
(01:22):
I just thought was a great title and it had,
you know, it had some of those songs like heroes
have Always been Cowboys, but it also had like have
to be Crazy, And that was like one of the
first albums I ever bought, so that one. Like even
when I see the cover, it like hits a little
special spot.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I fucking love Willie Nelson. I just interviewed him a
couple of months, agother like the coolest guy in the world.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
In the world. I spent a year like in his
universe because I wrote three songs for him, and then
we did one of them together on Letterman, and then
he had Matchbox twenty come be his backup band for
a TV show for like one of his seventy something birthday,
And I just spent like for a year, I just
kept orbiting. I was, you know it spent a lot
of time hanging on his bus and listening to these
(02:04):
unbelievable stories and like just such a story. I mean
obviously through his music, you know you can tell he's
a storyteller. So like when you actually get a chance
to like get with you know, just get in the
tractor beam of him, it feels very special.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I will let's take a let's take a step back
for a second. We're gonna come on to your wonderful
in a minute, but just think about that for a second. Right.
I know you've worked with Carlos, I know you worked
with a lot of people imagine the thought of like
for you as a kid, knowing that you would write
songs for the dude who fucking wrote crazy Man.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
I when I heard I sat in my house when
I was still living in Briarcliff in Westchester, and I
got the three songs back, the first like kind of
early stages of it when Willy sang them, and I
cried real tears in my living room, just like just
hearing his that voice that growing up in the South,
like it was Willy Whaling, you know, like murle, like
(03:02):
that was it. And so hearing that voice saying my
words was just fucking I don't know, it still is.
It's still one of my proudest things in my life.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, I mean, because it's funny because you think of
him as like, you know, to me, he's like one
of the greatest songwriters of all time, so you think,
like why would he be picking you know why?
Speaker 4 (03:22):
I mean if I had never done anything else, and
I would do like and I was just sitting around
telling my friends, you know that I wrote three songs
for Willian Nelson, I would, you know, I would. I
would dine out on that, you know, for the rest
of my life. He's more than that, man. I mean
he's like he is a he's a piece of American history,
but not like but Americana, you know, because he's always
(03:42):
been a hippie. He's always been going against the grain.
He's always you know, been anti establishment. You Like, my
wife when she met him, she's like, oh, he's just
a sweet guy. And I was like, he's not fucking sweet.
He's Willing Nelson, Like he used to fight and fuck
and you know, drink his way through America.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, but she's right, he is a sweet guy.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
He is a sweet sweet man.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah. It's funny because I mean, to me, the kind
of guy who represents that more than anyone is Christmastofferson,
who I've always been fascinated with and was the coolest dude.
But yeah, all of those guys were amazing.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
My manager when he was younger, Like, I used to
get mistaken for Chris Christopherson all the time, and because
he was you know, he was managing like willing to
George Michael and David Bowie and he was you know,
he was always out amongst music people. So people would
always be like Chris, and he's like, I'm not Chris,
I'm not Chris.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Hey, your manager would get mistaken for Chris.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Yeah all the time.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Okay, wait, your manager managed David Bowie and George Michael.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
Yeah. He managed David Bowie during the Diamond Dogs period
and then he was managed he managed George during the
Faith period and then again right at the end of
his life.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Interesting. Do you ever get to meet George?
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Oh? Many times? Yeah. My last memory of George is
him and I went to go see Avatar together in
Australia and then got into a fight in the elevator
on the way out about whether it was good or not.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
You know, I never saw Avatar, so I don't know
if it was any good, but I mean it's funny.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
Because he asked George. He would tell you, no, well.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
George is You know. He was an interesting dude because
I had to interview him only once for an hour,
and he was so funny because he knew that most
critics didn't stand him, and he was like, I remember
telling him that. You know, for me, I grew up
as a medal kid, right, So for me growing up
in the eighties, I was medal kids, so I was
like waym now. And then you know, I got married
to someone he loved, George. So I was like, fuck it,
I'll do the interview the coolest fucking guy you'll ever meet.
(05:40):
And I was telling him, you know, like, oh, you know,
I did this basically because my wife and he started
laughing and he's like, do you know how any critics
I've whard that from.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Did you when you interviewed him? Was it pre Faith
or was it after Faith?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I was watching this for the tour he did, the
last story he did of America.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Oh okay, yeah, I was there. I was at the
New York show for that. You know. My wife and
I went on tour with him around when he did Europe,
and like, you know, we would go like we'd go
to Rome for a few days and then the tour
would arrive there and we'd all hang out and see
the show and then go to Greece. But it was
amazing because, you know, at a time where people in
America were like, you know, whatever happened to George Michael
And then we're overseas and he's playing to sixty thousand people,
(06:19):
you know, in Rome and sixty thousand people in Greece, Like,
I think it's part of the culture over there. They
don't eat their young as much, and so I feel like,
you know, there's a they have a reverence for for
musicians that they grew up with, and you know, and
older musicians in Europe than they do here.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Well, it's interesting. Again, we'll come under your record in
a second. It's so wonderful, But I have to ask
because you know, it's funny to me George is like,
besides sprints, he's like the greatest male pop star of
all time, you know, but.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
Sure, and also one of the best producers.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Oh go ahead, Sorry I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Also. I mean a lot of people don't realize that,
you know, he was he wrote and produced all of
that stuff like that's that production was stellar.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. You know, it's
interesting talk about what you learned being around people like that,
just in terms of because I mean, the things they've
gone through. You know, what he went through with faith,
We talked about it. I mean that would destroy most people.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Yeah, I mean, and then you know everything that happened
with him in Anselmo, like everything in his personal life.
H I you know, watching George perform, I learned the
power of being still on stage.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Like.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
I was always fidget eat, you know, and like felt
like you've got to be doing something. But to watch
him alone on a stage, command tens and tens of
thousands of people and just stand there and like the
longer he stood there, the louder they would get, you know,
and like he'd never felt the need to pander to them.
He was like performing for them. And so like I
(07:50):
think he as a performer. I mean, there's a few
guys him in a much different way. Dave Gahan I
think is one of the best. Michael Hutchins probably one
of the best performers. Yeah, any Lenox, you know, uh,
I mean there's just a few that, like I think
if you're if you're paying attention, every everything can be school.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
You know, well everything should be school. I mean, especially
when you're around people, you know, who've gone through so much,
too experienced so much.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Yeah, I mean, I you know, one of the things
I got from Mick Jagger was that that he writes
like I write, which was a very comforting thing to
see him like fuss around with a melody and kind
of like see like form the lyric that he's trying
to find, you know, and like kind of sus it
out in his head. Only when he does it, he
does it like Mick Jagger, you know. But other than that,
(08:45):
it was, you know, it's it's it's it's inspiring to see,
you know, anytime that you can kind of like gleam,
especially because writing is such a it's such a weird
magical thing because it's like a hearing a song that
doesn't exist yet. You just hear a melody and some
radio station that's in your head and trying to pull
it down and conjure it up into like a physical thing.
(09:06):
It's always like, every time I do it, I feel
like the most creative person in the world, and then
within a day I feel like I'm a fucking hack again,
and I have to go write another song to start
feeling creative again.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Well, you know, it's funny because I started talking to
people a couple of years ago the fact that, like
you know, writing is so much like channeling and like
like you're saying, a song will come down to you
have no idea why. But it's funny. Of all people,
the one that I talk to who interested me the most,
and I mean I talked to everybody around about this,
and like Jimmy Cliff was telling me, you know, he
wrote Harderly Comment ten minutes all the way to the studio,
(09:36):
which is like one of the guys. But Mike Stolar
right ninety years old co wrote stand by Me Jailhouse Rock.
To me, stand by Me is as perfect as a
song as ever existed, and he's like, I have no
idea where songs come from ninety years old. He's like,
who knows, No one will ever know. And it's like
that's kind of reassuring a way to hear it, because
it's like, there is no way to explain it.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
No.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
It's funny because if I when I hear a song
that inspires me, the first couple listens, it feels like
fucking voodoo. And then and then I look at it
again and I go, oh, it's I see the structure.
This is a verse, and there's your chorus and there's
your like it it's not, but it somehow it gets
(10:21):
like painted over with this kind of magical sheen, Like
the right lyric and the right melody at the right
you know, just at that right space. It feels like
it's magic. And I'm like, I don't know how they
got there, Like I know all the ingredients. I have
all the ingredients in my kitchen to make that fucking cake,
but for some reason I didn't make that cake.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
You know, it's funny. I always look at this to me,
like the song like in my life, right, that's one
of my favorite songs of all time, And it's funny.
What makes John Lennon's stuff so special to me is
like I was trying to decide if I wanted to
use the word special significant. But it's funny because in
my life it's one of those songs that feels so simple.
You feel like everybody thinks like, oh, I could have
(10:57):
written that, and then it's like, well, yeah, maybe you
think he could have. But in the history of the
universe all me, John Lennon could write that.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Yeah. And in fact, you know, if you look at
like the Beatles in general, you know, like that they
it was kind of like PI like Python. You know,
there's python esque, there's Beatlesque, Like they created a thing.
And if it wasn't for that existing, there were so
many other things along the way, and you know, in
the future that would have never existed, you know, because
(11:26):
of that influence, not just in pop culture, you know,
in some ways those every kid just like Elvis did,
like every kid that grabbed and just wanted to, you know,
play his broom to look like Elvis. You know, there
are kids that wanted to look like the Beatles, but
then just musicality. Like I always joked that, like the
Beatles brought chords to America, you know, they brought numbered
chords to America. Nobody cared about a flat ninth at
(11:50):
that time, you know, until all of a sudden the
Beatles started, you know, really digging their heels in.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
That's the last question on this, then the obvious one,
and then we'll come on to your record. You know,
what's the one Beatles song you wish you'd written? And why?
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Oh man? Just one?
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Well it's funny because to me, I was separated by
McCarty and Lennon. So my two favorite Beatles songs are
Golden Slumbers, McCarty and Lenin in my life, you know,
So if you want to pick two, you go for it.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Well, no, I'll say, and I don't know why, but
it makes There's a song, the song Two of Us.
Even though it's a very happy song, it's it makes
me very sad. And I think because I mean because
it is. It is dipped in sadness, right, like when
he says you and I have memories longer than the
road that stretches out ahead. And I think maybe at
(12:43):
sixteen because that wasn't true, I didn't get it as
much as I do at fifty three.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
That makes sense, I mean, And it's funny going back
to your stuff. Then are there songs that you know?
I feel like songs change over time because of course,
you know, songs change because you have different experiences you
bring to it. You know, So like a song, for example,
(13:12):
that you know you wrote when you're twenty or twenty five, right,
it's a whole different thing for you now because you've
had a whole life for it.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I've
always tried to do is try and continue to keep
writing to be as visceral as possible and like not
try to not try to know what I think I'm
writing about it, what kind of style I'm writing, and
not worry about genres and just like write to my mood.
And you know, because of that, Like, there are certain
songs from like the first Matchbox twenty albums that we
(13:42):
don't play anymore because when we listen to them now,
they don't sound genuine. There's a sort of like nineties
manufactured angst in there that maybe didn't feel manufactured at
the time. But we don't feel that angst now. And
I think us like being on stage like some of
those really dark nineties I don't care, man, you know,
like that doesn't feel like us anymore, and so playing
(14:04):
those songs feels disingenuine and you know, and that's why
you know, some of the songs now, I'm not afraid
to be sentimental or schmoltzy, you know, are happy or
yacht rocky. You know, I just don't care anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I love the fact that you said that they're right,
because one of my favorite bands of all time is
Nine and Snails. I'm got l love Nine in Snails.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
Pretty Hate Machine was like one of my seminal records
of my of my childhood.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
It's one of the seminal records of all time. Right.
I've seen Nine in Snails thirty something times. I remember
the last two are seeing it and just thinking to myself.
You know, Trent's married with kids, an Oscar winner. I
just like, what are you saying his seabout anymore? Dude,
it just doesn't feel like you know.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
I wonder like a fifth because of him, because of
like he has his personal life, then he has his
film score life, and then I wonder if for someone
like him, there's Trent Resnor is like Trent Resnor has
wife and kids and Nine Inch Nails is it is
like a character that he embodies, you know, like he's
part he's part of like a soap proper that's been
going for thirty years and this is his main character
(15:11):
is Nine Inch Nails.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
You know, well, I mean a lot of people have said,
you know, and it's true. I mean it's funny because
you know, for you, I don't know if there are
songs that you still tap back into in a way,
because it's like, even though now you've had this whole life,
you do have that experience. But it's funny because I
look at like, right, Patti Smith, who I love, who
I've talked to, is the nicest, sweetest woman in the
world when you are you not on stage, But she
(15:34):
says when she gets on stage, she becomes like half animal.
It's just some people when they get on stage just
take on a whole different personality.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Yeah, I think I think that, you know, the me
on stage is taller than the me in real life.
And I think the me on stage is cooler than
this the me in real life, and sometimes a little
more wise. But I think, you know, I've always like
(16:06):
my there are certain groups that are like they got
their start and they spoke to maybe like a certain
disenfranchised group, and they became like the you know, the
beacon for this group of people. You know, they became
the beacon for maybe it's a political activism, or maybe
it's social outcastism, or you know what I mean. And
(16:28):
I think that I've written songs for years just about
how people relate to each other, you know, I've been
writing songs about moments that all of us have and
then how those moments make you feel. And I think
that there's a universal thing there, which means it's much
more of an everyman, you know, like when I'm on stage,
(16:48):
I'm one of you, Like we're we're in this moment together,
like we're just sharing by the campfire kind of a thing,
you know, more than I'm this guy performing for you.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
That's interesting though, because I did it book a couple
of years ago called Anthems We Love right where I
talked about all these different songwriters about how those songs
involved over the years and became an anthem. And it
was interesting, right because you know, I talked to Neil
Diamond about Sweet Caroline, Brian Wilson, God only knows, Robbie
Creeker Light My Fire. But two of the most interesting
ones were talked to Graham Nash about Our House and
Daryl Hall about Sarah Smile. And what was so interesting
(17:34):
was those songs were literally written for one person and
became anthems loved by millions. And the reason why they're
talking about is because it captures a feeling that everybody
wants so for you have there been songs you've written
and we can bring it out of the album. I mean, baby,
it happens on here too, where there are songs you've
written that were so personal. You're kind of surprised by
(17:54):
the fact that, like other people identify with it in
the way that I was talking with Brandy Clark, who
great songwriter in Nashville, about writing a song about her
grandmother and like, who the fuck would think the song
about your grandmother smoking your drinking would be like blow
up by so many people, But millions of people have
that kind of grandmother I did.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Yeah, I think, you know, I always say that, like
if I write a song about me and my wife
and something very personal and it's very special, that it's specific,
let's say that her and I have gone through, It's
not my job to tell you the listener that specific
thing that my wife and I went through. It's my
(18:34):
job to write about how that thing makes me feel,
because you probably understand that feeling and it you know,
it attributes to something totally different. Like three Am is
a song that I've I've played every show solo or
matchbox for the last thirty years, and it was a
song for me about when my mom when I was
young and my mom had cancer and I had to
(18:55):
take care of her. But I mean, it's been it's
been played at people's weddings, you know, it's been you know,
it's been used for familiar relationships, romantic relationships, you know, friendships,
and people have just attached it to their lives in
whatever way sees fit. And I think that that's the job.
Like I think, I think the writer should be fucking
(19:20):
not like non existent in the song. You know, the
song should be like something that it feels like a
suit that I made for you.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Right. That's interesting because you take it onto a new album,
like for example, what was the oh through Me is
one of the songs on the record I love.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
Yeah, I mean through Me is a song I think
that it can only like I could only write because
I've been with my wife for twenty seven years, you know,
and because we've been to the brink of it and
almost over and then got stronger because of it, and
you know, and that's and I think because of that,
without having to mention, that that song resonates with a
lot of older people who have been married or together
for a very long long time.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Right, So it's interesting. I have you heard from people
already about that? And it's funny because again that's one
of the things that interests me is like people come
back to you now, and especially in this day and
age versus even when you started, you know, where people
didn't have the reach to you, and now they can
like tell you how a song means to them or whatever.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Yeah, you know it was funny Steve, is that the
first night I played it, it was before it was
before anyone had ever heard it. Like I think I
just recorded it, and but I did a you know,
my wife and I have a foundation called Sidewalk Angels,
and every year in Atlantic City, I do a show
or a run of shows, sometimes acoustics storytellers, you know,
(20:43):
and I played thrill Me, you know, just this unreleased,
never before heard song, and a couple friends of ours there,
even they're just even a little bit older than me,
I think there maybe like in their late fifties, came back,
you know at the end of the show with tears
in their eyes talking about thrill Me and how much
it meant to them, like immediately as they were listening
to it. And I think, I mean, I think that's
(21:05):
that's amazing, you know, the fact of you know, this
isn't a song that they had time to live with,
like they listened to the lyrics in real time and
it really attached that, you know, into their DNA. And
so yes, oh that's right, Madi. My wife was just
reminded me there was a young couple who just got
engaged when I played like during that song at my
show the other night.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
All right, so you know it's got to be like
I've talked about so many people, right, it's one of
those things like you have hit records, you can have
all the success. Well when you have songs that create
that impact for people, it means so much more. So
have there been those songs over the years or even
you know, it's funny because some the solbm isn't you
now yet, but you know still since you're doing live
(21:48):
people do you get to hear? And of course now
in this day and age, it goes on YouTube and
so it's like even if you know, even if you
only do it to one city, people in other places
know it. So have you been like again surprised or
pleasantly surprised with the response where people just gravitate songs
and like latch onto them.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
So what we've been doing is but you know, we
play some of the songs, like you know, there's been
three released out on you know, you can get on Spotify.
They're out in the world, picture Perfect, Thrill Me and
Hard to Be Happy. And there's two other songs that
aren't released yet that we that we play live. But
what we've done is the first one we open the
show with because we ride the excitement of the first song,
(22:30):
so people are more receptive to listen into something. Nube
and it's a big, bombastic song. And the same thing
with the song all night Days, we start the encore
with it, and I'm really amazed at how at the
end of all night days, like the Roar is it's
like like it was a hit song. I think it's
just because it's got such a good live energy. And also,
like you said, you know, for fans that have been
(22:51):
coming to like multiple shows throughout the tour, you know,
we try and mix it up. We want to play
different songs you know, here and there and make sure
that you know, it's not exactly the same every night.
But after like the first show, the real hardcore fans
they've gone back. They spend their time before the next show.
They learned from YouTube those new songs, and I see
them in the front you know front rows singing now
(23:13):
every word to a song that's not even released yet,
and so I just applaud that kind of you know,
ingenuity vacation.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, well, it's funny. I'm sure when you were a kid,
therese were those records. I remember, you know, being you know,
such a hardcore music geek, I would always collect bootlegs, so,
like I remember getting the demos for like Red Zeppelin
four right online and stuff. Yeah, I mean, was there
one song that kind of jump started this record that
you know, like, was there one song that you wrote
(23:41):
first that was like, Okay, now I'm ready to do
a solo record or was it something that just kind
of because you know, of course, now twenty twenty five,
you can literally just put out songs every week if
you want, or like, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
I almost did that, Like I almost started. And I
was telling you talking with my label at the time
when I was on Atlantic, about you know, go into
that phase in my career maybe where I just start
releasing a couple songs at a time here and there.
But then there was so much time had been passing,
and I was just writing enough material that I kind
of felt like they all they all belonged together, you know,
(24:14):
and so maybe I'm just not there yet. I think
I started with the opening song on the record, a
song called Hand in My Hand, and back in twenty twenty,
right before everything shut down, Matchbox twenty was supposed to
go on tour, but we weren't going to make a record,
and I was gonna release a few solo songs, and
(24:38):
I wrote Hand in My Hand and we were kind
of gearing up to see if we're gonna make a
solo record or if I was just gonna release songs,
and then everything kind of fell to shit for a
few years, and I just kind of sat on it.
And then while I was sitting on it, I started
writing hard to Be Happy, and I started writing thrill me,
and then I started writing like, there's two songs on
the last Matchbox twenty record, Queen of New York City
(25:00):
and don't get me wrong that I would have been
on my solo record, but then made it onto the
Matchbox record. And then there was like the song I
Believe It on this record was supposed to be on
the Matchbox record, but then it wound up on my
solo record. So it was a long process of just
because for me, I just write all the time, and
then when it's time to do something, I kind of
(25:20):
look at what I've gotten, see, you know, does any
of it make a record? And then maybe only half
of it does, and that means I got to go
back to the drawing board and write another six cons
because when I really look at it, I think, shit,
I've only got six good songs like I've been I've
got three albums of material, but I've only got six
good songs.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
That's funny. I mean, are the ones that you go
back to you? And the reason I asked it because
I just interviewed the other day John Fogerty, and you
want to talk about one of the aw song great songwriters, yea.
And he was saying, you know, he just did the
like I gues See album more. He revisited all the strungs,
you know. Yeah, I was asking him how the song's
hold up for him, And it's funny. He was saying
what I would always tell people at the time is
(26:10):
I would write ten songs for every one song. So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
That's exactly how I am. It's funny. When we made
our second record, Matchbox, we were in Atlanta and uh,
maybe in Nashville. The time doesn't matter, but uh, one
whole day, just out of nowhere, John Fogerty came by
the studio and just hung out with us all day.
I think we were recording the song if You're Gone
at the time, and like we were just putting in
(26:35):
those Chicago style horns, you know. And I was like
so nervous because I was like, shit, I don't know
I John Fogey's gonna like these horns, you know, but
anybody really, but he really loved them, and he was
just a fan of of of our first record and
that that was a really exciting day. All right.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
So now I gotta ask, you know, I mean, it's
funny because like you said, you know, John Fogerty says,
you know, I'll write ten songs for everyone that gets released,
but then again for you know, just like a Fogerty,
there's a spring scene and he's like, I'm not gonna
release it. I'm not gonna release it. Okay, cool, Now
I'm gonna put out seven fucking amazing albums at once.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Yeah, I mean, but that guy's a fucking alien like
like during that whole period from like the Rising, when
it was just like boom boom boom, boom boom and
in there, you know, you've got great, good, really good songs,
but then you've got like, I mean, girls in their
summer clothes and and devils and dust like and this
is a man. This was he was in his sixties,
(27:29):
you know. I was. I was at Rock and Rio.
We played Rock and Rio and the night before Bruce
was playing Rock and Rio at like at midnight, and
so because of that, we were all at the same hotel,
and my wife was the only person that bought good wine,
right because all the wine at the hotel, I guess,
(27:49):
had been shitty. So y'all and Winter saw me and
saw Madi with the good wine and came over and
sat down and we were hanging out by the pool,
and then Bruce comes out and I sat for about
forty minutes and just talked about music with with with Bruce,
and then he knew so much more about my career
than I would have ever expected, like in that he
(28:09):
knew how many solo records I had made, how many
matchbox records I had made, like where I was at
in my career, and telling me how I you know,
I'm probably going to hit a like a fallow period,
and I need to not worry about that because that's
just generation suiting up for the next generation to you know,
to come in and become a part of it. And
it was and you know, and then I went, like
a couple months later, I went to and saw his
(28:31):
second to last Broadway the show, and I got to
go back and talk to him after that, Like his
his memory is is just ridiculous. And when you listen
to him speak, you understand why he's so prolific because
he almost he thinks in conversationally in terms of like
like it sounds like a song sometimes, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting though, because one of the things
I ask people is, you know, and and I'm always
curious about, are there people you've gotten to hang out
with so many of these you know, icons who've been
able to evolve and grow in these different ways? Are
there people that you really admire and that you look
at for your career, for the way that they grow
and evolve. And it's funny because you know, some are
(29:16):
obvious like Springsteen, Tom Waits, and other than someone like
Chris Cornell, who has a bit of friends with and
a big fan of it. It's like, you know, there's
a guy who was like a huge fan and wanted
to be Jeff Buckley, and he told me he wanted
to be Tom Waits when you're young, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
I was. I had gotten friendly with Chris just before
a little while before he passed him and I met
at we both did the Kennedy Center Honors for the
Who together and we sat at the same table, and
you know, we both had a lot of friends in common,
people that we knew coming up, and so we we
we became like like text buddies, you know, and like
every couple of weeks we just check in to see
(29:52):
what we're at, what we're doing. He was such a sweet,
sweet guy, you know, like for that, for that that
rock and roll song. Who you know, I think as
much as the only other person I could think maybe
Eddie Vedder and Kurt Cobain or the only other two
(30:12):
that kind of personified that period of music that was
coming out, you know, like just when you see them
or when you think of that time, those are three
faces that you think of, and so like it's it
becomes synonymous with this rage and this anger. But there
was such a sweet, soft quality to him, and that
that's why when you go back and listen to those records,
that's what made them so special is they weren't performative rage.
(30:35):
They were layered introspective songs you know that had you
just happen to have an edge to them.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah. Now, the sweetest guy in the world, just the
nicest physician you know, and always so like would make
a point to like welcome you and make you feel special,
But I.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
Feel like you know, but I don't want to forget
this thread really quick, Steve. Sorry, but you know, I
feel like he's someone that the world didn't let explore
and experiment as many ways as he would have liked to.
You know, I think there was so he wanted to
try to do so many different things, and people didn't
want to accept that part of a Chris Cornell, you know,
(31:14):
because of what Chris Cornell meant to them, because their
Soundgarden t shirt meant more to them than like his
hopes and aspirations.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Unfortunately, again, you look at like George Michael and you
can say the same thing. I mean, fans, are you
know so in the way do you feel lucky that
you have you know, you're able to explore these different things,
and that you know you can go out and do
arenas with Matchbox twenty and then put out a solo album.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Yeah, I mean, I think I've got a really generous
group of fans who from the first that you know,
even within Matchbox twenty, those first three records, three Am
doesn't really sound like Bent and doesn't really sound like Unwell,
and certainly when I went solo, like none of that
sounds like lonely no More or but the fans have
allowed me to do that and kind of like explore
(31:58):
different genres. I think my voice is the unifying factor
in all of those things. It kind of links everything together.
And then hopefully, like I said, I never once was like,
oh I'm gonna try and make this record. I want
to make a pop song, or I want to make
this hard song, or I want to I just write
all the time, and and and if you if you
(32:19):
account for all those ten songs that nobody's ever gonna hear,
it's really not that big of a feat. It's just
the numbers game, like if you know it, like if
you if you're a good writer at all and you
write twenty songs, you're gonna write a good song, you know,
So you just keep just keep fucking writing.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
It's funny what you know as an artist, you're never satisfied.
As an artist, you cannot be satisfied. But what I
found from talking to people is you have those moments
that you really love and you know, like I've kind
of you know, talked to people about them. They're like
these moments of truth where you're never gonna be half
your perfect record, you can't because as an artist, if
(32:57):
you think you've made a perfect record, what's one of
going on? You know, I talked to Brian Wilson many times.
They got to know him, you know what I mean.
You can argue, and I will argue the greatest pop
song of all times. Scot only knows he still thought
he was doing more stuff, you know. So for you,
have there been those moments as a writer where you
feel like you know you're not there yet because you
(33:18):
can't be there yet, but you're so close to where
you want to get, Like those moments where you just
hit upon something that's just like, that's fucking special.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
I I think I'm in a place in my life
where early early on, even the good work that I did,
and so much of it even now when I listen back,
that I really would have changed. But you know, there's
certain staple Matchbox twenty songs that that I think worked,
(33:49):
even though for that very first part of your career
is like the first half of it anyway. I think
most people, you've got one eye on what you're doing,
but whether you want to or not, there's always another
on the fact that you know that you have to
do something that's going to compete, because that's going to
be the thing that's going to put your foot into
it and let you continue to be able to do it,
you know what I mean. And so success of your
(34:12):
record is a factor. And as I get older, I
love new people getting turned onto my music and I
love new people coming in. But I know also that
over the last thirty years I've amassed this small little
army of like minded people that are already initiated into
(34:32):
what I'm doing and just want to hear what I'm
gonna do next. And we have our own little group,
and we have our own little powwow together, and it's
it's more freeing in a lot of ways, because in
that way, I'm really just sometimes finding out, like getting
a little threat of a melody and following it down
the path and not worrying at all that it's gonna,
you know, never ever ever be something that's going to
(34:53):
be played on the radio. Like when when we made
the first record that's twelve swings to try and hit
a home run, you know, and we lucked out and
we hit like six of them on that first record,
But we didn't know that could ever happen. And so
you tried every song felt like it had to be
a song that should or could be on a radio
at the time, especially during that time when radio was
(35:14):
king right, And that was probably on the second record too,
and some of the third record. Every swing was trying
to swing for the fences. You didn't have time to
make a quiet, little introspective record that you knew only
fans that were going to listen to. Whereas now over
the last maybe twenty years or fifteen to twenty, it's
(35:34):
been a little easier for me to say, oh this,
I'm making this song and it's going to appeal. It's
going to mean a whole lot to a very small
amount of people.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
But it's funny to me, I mean, which do you
enjoy more? Because I look at someone like to me,
my favorite songwriter of all time is Tom Waits, who
has like the perfect career. You can walk into the market.
No one knows who the fucking is except for like
hardcore music gigs, but every song in the world swears
by his stuff, accomplish his stuff.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Great fruit Moon, Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm you know,
I'm really lucky, Like I my songs are way more
famous than I am like I could be hanging out
with somebody on a plane for hours and then they
could ask, you know, we could be having conversations about life,
and when they ask what I do, I'm a musician
sometimes Matchbox twenty. But if they you know, like we'll
(36:26):
communicate and then like they're like, oh shit, I know
like ten of your songs, you know, like I love
that song. I grew up on that song. And to me,
I mean, that's a that's a true as a musician.
It's a very I like that level of success, you know.
I like that people know my music a lot better
than they knew me. And if they know me, you know,
(36:48):
I walk around my neighborhood and it's and it's literally
just people like, hey, Rob, how you doing. I'm like, hey,
how are you? Man? You know nice boast by the way.
I mean, I love I love writing a song where
I'm like I think Willie Nelson would like this song,
or I feel like Bruce Springsteen would like this song.
But I also like a song that like I'm like,
(37:11):
we're gonna go on like we're gonna go on stage
and we're gonna fucking tear the place apart with this
song and then you know, I'm not above Like right now,
we got the news last night that Hard to Be
Happy crack the top twenty in radio, and I love
when that happens too, you know, But I just love it,
I think because again I wasn't swinging for everyone this time.
It's just some. But some of them, you know, some
(37:33):
of them still go over the fence even when you're
not trying.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Well, I think that's the best, when you're not trying,
because again, when you're trying, people feel it. Yeah, So
is there anything you want to add that I did
not ask you about?
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Are you asking me if there's anything interesting about myself
that I haven't told you yet.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Anything at this moment that's going on with you that's interesting,
you know.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Uh, No, man, we're you know, we're after next year,
just next year, we're going into the thirty anniversary, starting
the thirtieth anniversary of Matchbox twenty's first record. I'm you know,
I'm in this new place because I just left Atlantic
Records and immediately got picked up by Universal Republic, which
is a bigger label, and so it's you know, it's
(38:16):
nice to have landed into a nice family again.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
And Matchbox twenty I think is gonna be starting this
thing out, and we're gonna go for it independently and
do it and do our thirtieth anniversary and kind of
start building our own little team.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
And so we're excited about what next year is gonna bring. Maybe,
I'm sure maybe we'll be sitting talking again about that
next year.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Oh well, you guys listening. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
Also, by the way, going back to your first question,
that that's one of my all time favorite records as well.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
It is a fucking perfect album.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
Yeah,
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