February 25, 2026 • 32 mins
On this week's In Service Of Steve Baltin is joined by iconic singer/songwriter Sarah McLachlan to discuss her most recent album, creating Lilith Fair, motherhood, being a mentor to young female artists and so much more.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, Steve Balton and this week on in Service of Man.
This is a really fun one, so I hope you
enjoyed this one as much as I did. But I
got to sit down with the iconic singer songwriter Sarah
McLaughlin to talk about the origins of A Little Bear,
her last album, her being a Mom, Jonny Mitchell, and
(00:22):
so much more. I've known Sarah for many years. I
always loved talking to her. This is a really fun,
enjoyable conversation with one of the coolest people in music.
So I hope you enjoyed this one as much as
I did. Well, thanks for being here today. It's good
(00:49):
to catch up with you. I know you have you know,
it's always an interesting thing. Eleven years between albums and
you have been hitting the promotional circuit heart. It's funny.
I've talked with a lot of artists. You say that,
you know, getting back on that bike is a lot
harder than getting back on the album bike. Has it been?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Uh No, I would agree with that. Yeah, I mean
that's part that's part of the trepidation of getting on
the album bike is knowing that you're going to have
to do all the work to promote it.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I mean, yeah, but it's interesting because you've had so
much of a promoter once with the documentary and everything, and.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
This perfect storm for sure. I mean, I could not
have timed it better, and it was just sheer luck
that everything, you know, the album, the album was done.
I mean, the album is done in December of the
year before, and they thought, let's wait till September. That's
the record label needed that much time to set it up.
I don't know why, but you know, again above my
(01:51):
pay grades. So it's like okay, sure, and then turns
out the documentary is coming out like the same week,
so that was crazy. So yeah, that would I think
that boosted everything because, as you know, one needs to
make all sorts of nois these days to rise above
the frame.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Well, you know, it's always an interesting thing too. I
find that we're talking with people, you know, with the
documentary coming out simultaneously, because most artists, by nature do
not like to look back. So you know, when you
look back at all that time, you know, not necessarily,
I mean, of course that leads you back musically as well,
(02:29):
but were there things that you sort of saw that
surprised you a little bit that then you realize still
applies so much to how you make music and the
way you think today.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I mean, I'm not particularly nostalgic, and I don't spend
much time looking back. I mean, I did just do
a filming towards sexty thirtieth anniversary tour, so it was
kind of forced back to that time as well, although
that was actually a little bit before, before Lilith. But
you know, it was kind of amazing. Obviously I've seen
all the iterations of the edits and stuff, but it
was amazing to sit in the audience and watch that
(03:02):
on the big screen and see three of the most
important years of my life so succinctly and joyously portrayed.
You know, this keepsake that I get to have in
my life and go back to. And I'd forgotten so much,
and it just reminded me, you know, of both the
you know, the the fantastic times, all the amazing musicians,
(03:27):
and those are the parts that I hold on to
when I think about Lilith. I didn't think about all
the stupid questions I got to asked, or the you know,
the the bomb threats and that stuff, Like I hardly
even remember that stuff. But it was interesting having all
that brought back into focus, the you know that all
the challenges, which again I kind of I vaguely remember,
(03:47):
but I was just you know, kind of on a
different plane most of the time because there was just
so much going on, and I was sort of I
was making I was part of the decision making process
on pretty much everything. And I was brought into oh
so and so it's not showed up. What do we do?
And I know, lots of fires to put out. And
(04:07):
I was very young and kind of green, and so
we were as were we all just like like Catherine
Rose said, we had no idea what we're doing, and
you know, we had to hire a bunch of people
in Seattle to go across the country because we had
we had no idea how big the thing was that
we had just built.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Well, it's funny that you say that, but well, okay,
I'm gonna go to different ways with this first. But
you know, when you say you were so young, I
mean one of the things I was thinking about with
this is there is an impetuousness to you that allows
you to be fearless. And it's funny. I mean, you know,
I think most of the time. I remember having a
conversation with Dave Growl not long ago, a couple of
years ago. Right, we were talking about you know, and
(04:48):
I think about like, I was at some BMI event
that I was covering for Rolling Stone, and in that
night I met Little Richard, Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley.
Now I would literally drop to my ease and pass out.
And then I was like, oh, you know, I was
in my twenties. I'm like, this will be every fucking night,
you know. I mean, it's funny when you look back
(05:09):
on it now, do you think that there was a
certain amount of like that youthfulness that allows you to
get away with it because you don't overthink things. You
just come up with an idea and.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
You're like absolutely absolutely. And that was that's why the
concept felt so simple. Say well, we're just going to
do this. What do you mean we can't? Of course
we can and we're going to. And that was just
kind of the impetus. It's like, well, fuck you, what
are you talking about? What are you saying we can't
do this. I've already been doing it. I'm going to
(05:42):
keep doing it, and I'm going to bring more people
along and do it even bigger, and yeah, and you
know it's that fake it tea to make it. And
for sure I didn't think it would fail. I never
thought for a second it would fail. I also didn't
have any idea of what kind of massive success would be.
But that is my innocence, and one might say ignorance
(06:03):
even in the music business where I was, you know,
somewhat sheltered and just like you know, and we're just like, well, yeah,
we'll figure it out as we go, and somehow worked.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
But the direction I want to go with that, it's
funny you said you're not nostalgic, no artist is. That's
why I asked specifically about the documentary because I remember
during COVID, right, I talked with so many artists who,
you know, we're doing anniversary projects greatest hits, and they
were like, this is the first time I've ever had
(06:35):
the opportunity to look back.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
To go back and listen to my old records, yeah,
and to.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Like think about what I've done. So that's why I
was asking if there were things that you noticed during
that time that you apply to making better broken and
like you know all that and like just that you
realize that like It's funny because you say that you
know there were things you remember about low Affair, because
when you're in the midst of it most of the
I've talked to so many artsts about this, you don't
(07:02):
even know what the hell's going on. Half the time,
you don't even know what city you're in.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, I would say if there's stuff I carried with me.
I've been pretty consistent in my life about following my gut,
and it's generally steered me in the right direction. There's
been some missteps, obviously, but you know, I learn a
(07:26):
lot from that too, And I think just that that
resilience of getting constant pushback about certain things in your
life where you're like, well, you can't do that, or
you shouldn't be doing that, or you can't say that.
It's like, but this is how I feel, and this
(07:47):
is what I want to do, and I'm going to
do it. And I've been pretty consistently bullheaded in that
way throughout my life, and certainly the success of lol
of may Well have you know, really solidify that that
ideology and me, I think I was always like that.
I've always been very stubborn and always kind of wanted
(08:08):
to you know, go my own way. And you know,
I think my second record, I remember all sorts of
challenges with the record label, and I phoned up my
manager and said, well, I'm not interested in being on
a major label if this is what it is, because
I'm not compromising. I don't want to be an ard
and because I didn't give it. You know, I didn't
(08:31):
give a shit. I didn't give a shit about the
rich and famous part. I was like that that wasn't
the north Star. North Star was pleasing myself and making
music that I felt proud of. And I was young
enough and green enough, and I even have to think
I could actually dare to dream that.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
It's so funny you say that now, though, because I
remember seeing a couple of years ago, I reviewed the
Joney Jam show at the Gorge for a rolling Stone,
and I've met through you know Cameron, and you know
she I think is probably the benchmark for that, like
stubborn and bullheaded. And are there artists that you look
at or that you learn from about like you know,
(09:10):
maybe when you start off and seeing that justic youth,
but then as you get older, you know, there are
those people that you know, you see it. It's funny
because as you were talking about being bullet, I was
just thinking about it. I got to email to day
about a new book from Audie DeFranco. I fucking love
Audie DeFranco. And she has always been one of those
artists as well who just does everything her own way.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, oh yeah, I mean, and that's like times a thousand,
Like you know, I look at someone like that and
I'm just like, I'm so in awe because you know,
it's still I still also have my you know, remnants
of the way I was brought up, which was keep
your mouth shut and you don't have you don't get
(09:54):
to have an opinion. So that's, you know, the other
thing that sort of fought against my entire life. But yeah,
like Joan Osborne, Joe, oh yes, Joan Osborne. Yes, she
was having a metopausal moment. Like Joan Osborne's documentary of
Texas approached the pro life thing and she's like, well,
(10:15):
we didn't I didn't agree to any of this. I'm worried.
I'm I'm gonna wear my T shirt. And I was like,
I was like, on one hand, I'm like, fuck, John,
You're just now I'm gonna get all this shit, but
I'm like, God, damn, I'm so proud of you for
doing that too.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, I mean it's amazing that like the stories, and
you know, it's funny that you say that, it's like
times a thousand, but when you look back then on
what you did, and I don't want to spend you know,
I want to talk about the new record, but it
just is interesting that you say that, because I mean, look,
you created a fucking revolution. And it's funny because I
know everybody from that era, and I talked with Cheryl
(10:52):
and Melissa a couple of months apart a few years ago,
and they were saying they both kind of were, you know,
told well, we got play two women at rock radio
at the same time, or we can't add to women.
So it's funny that you say it because you literally, like, say,
you know Annie's times a thousand, and yes, Annie is
like one of the ultimate badasses, but you also created
(11:13):
a revolution.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I think we all together created a revolution. You know,
I don't take credit for that. I take credit for
bringing everybody together, but everybody else had to agree to
participate in this thing, and by doing so created a
momentum that was impossible to ignore.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Someone had to lead the way. And it's interesting. I
mean what you look back on, is there somewhere that
you see in you again that sort of leads you
to that, you know, sort of a turning point moment
where you see yourself as being that leader, you know,
where you just realize that, you know, because a lot
of people, especially music, are afraid to be I mean
(12:02):
especially in music twenty twenty five, it's fucking pathetic. Everybody's like, well,
what is Taylor Swifts stay about saying I love Taylor
no back to her, but you know, like the media
and everybody is like, well, what does she say? What
does you know this person say? What does Sabrina say?
So it's like, you know, there isn't follow mentality in music,
So do you look back and see where you became
(12:23):
that leader mentality?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
It's just not something I think about. I I believe
wholeheartedly in team. Like you know, I can't. I can't
do any of what I do by myself. I mean
I can write the songs by myself, but even it's
like why I love working with other musicians and producers
to bring the music to a different place than I
(12:57):
would be able to bring it on my own. I mean,
I have I have a great platform, and you know,
I think I have a I have an amazing fan base,
and I just don't I don't think about myself as
a leader. I know, I know I'm the boss on tour,
but I'm pretty you know, I'm pretty easy going about
(13:18):
that as long as you know, just do your job
well and it's all you need to do. Just show
up and do your fucking job and don't ask me
for a medal because you know you've been here a week.
And I just that that whole mentality of you know, well,
I'm only gonna I want. I want one hundred and
fifty thousand dollars a year, but I'm only gonna work
till four thirty. And you know I won't take mike,
(13:41):
I won't take calls after that. I'm like, like, I'll
clean fucking toilets if I have to get the whatever
it takes to get the job done. And I miss that.
But don't get me going.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
No. I love what you're saying though, too, about collaborating me.
It's funny. I was just watching the video for it
reminds me and I adore Katie. I've known Katie since
she was in Grammy Camp And there's a moment where
she starts singing in the video and you are like beaming. Hint, No,
do you still keep that like you know, we've talked
in the past about the cerebral lawth in school. Do
(14:12):
you always keep that sort of mentor mentality where it's
just like you just can't help be excited for young musicians.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, and you know, it's kind of like a mothering
thing too, like and I mean, Katie's not that much
younger than me, but it's it's very cool to meet
younger musicians and find out that they're you know, they're
not only a fan of my music, but they're they're
a fan of Lilith and they say, you know that
the stories that they tell me about what that did
for them, that part's very cool and you know that
(14:44):
that recognition that is like, it's cool to be in
this place in my life where I actually might have
something to offer to younger musicians in terms of, you know,
just the experiences I've had. I mean, it's like anything,
it's an intimate path. You know, everybody's journey is different,
but there are certainly some you know, common truisms about
(15:05):
being in the industry, not only as an artist, as
a woman in particular. And it is nice to be
able to, if asked for advice, at least offer, you know,
some of the things that I know to be true
for myself.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
And yet it's so funny because I love that you
say about like a mother of mentality, and yet I've
talked about this with the baddest mother in the music industry,
Patti Smith. At the end of the day, you are
still just parent. And I was reading one of the
things where you talked about the fact that it was
like your one fear of this record was the song
you wrote for your daughter, and you're like, oh shit,
that I pushed you far. And I love that no
(15:41):
matter who you are, you're never cool to your kids.
It doesn't matter if you literally are packed Smith, I.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Was so, I'm so uncool. I have someone else doing
my social media and she said, oh, you need to
do this ASMR thing. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Oh, okay,
I'll go do this, And I said, I'm going to
tell you right now, my eighteen year old is going
to eviscerate me for this. And sure enough, we posted
it and then like five minutes later, my daughter's like,
(16:11):
take this down right now. This is horriful. Well I
don't I show my bandmates who are on their fifties.
They're like, oh, this is so funny. So I said,
you know, honey, you are not my audience anyway. Yeah,
(16:32):
do you know what cool? We're never cool for our kids.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
You're not supposed to be though. If you are, there's
something wrong. Yeah, exactly, you know, But I mean there
still is that point of pride of like, so, is
there anything you have done where they're like okay? Or
was there one or was there one moment on this
record where they're like okay? You know that is a
little like it's funny. I remember talking with Shaq and
(16:57):
he was like, I wasn't cool to my kids. So
I introduced him to Miley Iris. Then I got points.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yep, yep. Well the only time my kids thought I
was a little bit cool was the first time they
actually came to a show. Because my kids never came
to my shows. They weren't interested. And they came to
a show in Toronto. It's like fourteen thousand people and
everybody's screaming. You know, I love you, Sarah, and they're like, oh,
you're actually legit, like people actually like like your music.
(17:27):
And it just felt kind of like a Taylor Swift
concert in terms of, you know, the adoration of the fans,
and it was like, for a brief moment, I kind
of was elevated in their eyes. It didn't last long, but.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, wait, we're gonna speech gears for one second. Speaking
of Taylor, you and her were both nominated for Songwriters
Hall of Fame. Now, I have been obsessing with this
question lately as a writing fan. I've been asking everybody,
what's your favorite lyric of hers of all time? Favorite
(18:03):
lyric of all time?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
I almost always go blank on these things. I have
to think about that. There isn't one line in particular.
I don't have one song in particular that I just love.
I mean, it'll probably be a Joni song. It'd probably
be off Blue, because yeah, lyrically she's the queen. But yeah,
i'd be hard pressed to You'd need to let me
(18:29):
get back to you on that, all.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Right, fair, but I'm gonna be looking for an email answer.
But it's funny as soon as you say, I mean,
how the fun could you go wrong? With the case
of Yell. The lyrics of that song are flawless.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
It's flawless. Well, the whole album is flawless. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Blue.
I mean, you can quote anything from there and I'd
agree with you.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Joke favorite lyric off better broken because it's funny, like you,
you know you and I've talked about this in the past,
and I talked about this to everybody. So much of
writing and subconscious things will come out and you're like
not even aware that you wrote it until you go
back and listen to it. So are there any moments
on this one that really stand out to you where
you're just like that, you know, I mean, it's like
it's almost it feels so many people have described it
(19:17):
to me as like someone else wrote the line.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Again, I draw a blank. I'd have to go read
all my lyrics and I'm serious, this is my eight
D brain. Yeah, I don't. I don't think I don't
have a favorite line or anything that. I mean again,
I don't. I'd have to go listen. I'd have to
go read them all and have one jump out at me.
To answer that question, that's fair.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Have there been like moments that I mean, when you've
been touring the record, what have been the songs that
this is always interested too, Like you may have a
favorite song of the record and then someone else is like, eh,
but then that song that was like, you know, barely
made the album everybody goes crazy over live. So would
have been the songs that have surprised you with the responses?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
One on a long line, but it doesn't really surprise
me considering my largely female audience. That one's fun to sing,
because I mean it's fun to sing. It's actually it's
a challenging song to sing, and it's challenging for me
to keep my energy calm when I'm singing it too,
although one would argue, I, you know, to be more honest,
I kind of get I get into it, but then
(20:22):
I'm like, I have to calm my nervous system down
after I'm done singing it because I'm just like pissed off,
and then I have to kind of bring it down.
It's like, so that one's kind of surprised me. I mean,
I think the way people have instantly kind of recognized
the energy of gravity. I've played that a bunch, and
people like mothers in particular, have come up to me
(20:44):
afterwards and they're like, oh my god, and then you've
heard it for the first time and they're sobbing and
they're like it's a You know, every every parent or
most parents, I think, you know, can strongly relate to
a song like that where you know, at some point
your kid is facing challenges or struggling and you don't
(21:07):
know how to reach them. You don't know what to do,
you don't know what the answer is. You want to
fix it, but you can't. There's things that you can't fix,
and you know that you have to just let them
go through it and figure it out on their own.
But it's really hard seeing your kids struggling.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I mean, that's interesting gag. Going back to the idea
of stuff being so conscious, was that something you were
aware of as you were writing it, or was it
more like.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, I mean I wrote the chorus. I think I
wrote the chorus and no, no, I was going, oh, yeah,
we're sort of we're on the other side of it.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
But when you talk about subconscious, yeah, I mean things
just kind of come out and then like pieces of
lyrics or a piece of a verse or chorus come out,
and then it's like, well, where did that come from?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
You know, and then the work of mining that idea further,
like why did I say that? Why do I feel
that way? Like where does that come from? How do
I how do I eke two more versus another chorus
out of this and you know, and create a you know,
a real story. But I was sort of I definitely
(22:19):
was going through it with my daughter about a year before,
and quite often I can't write when I'm in the
situation I need. I need perspective and distance from it
to be able to, I think, for it to be good.
I've written plenty of you know, heartbreak, you know, broken
up songs that no one will ever hear, because you know,
(22:40):
I listened to it six months later, I'm like, oh
my god, what a fucking victim. Like, no one's ever
going to hear that shit. But you have to write,
you know, it's like diary, It's like journaling. You know,
that shit's not meant for public consumption.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
There will never be like a well, you know, like
break Seeing seven album box set. There will never be
the Sarah macloughlain Breakoup box set.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Well, you know, I suppose if you combine a lot
of songs that already exist. There might be one, but
already those are the you know, the ones that are
that I felt were acceptable to release to the world.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
And now I have to ask quickly before we wrap up,
what is the greatest breakup song of all time? Your favorite?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
You know what? I keep going back to and I
remember this, and in particular because I went through a
hainous breakup around the same time that Kesha song what
is it called? Do you know the one? I mean
where she goes she goes crazy high in the the
end of the chorus.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I can google it. I'm not sure. I'm not familiar
with her stuff, not that she's not great, but I'm
just you know, it.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Was just, you know, and it might not even be
that great a song. I just remember like listening to
that going I'm being so angry and so hurt, and
I'm like, yeah, well she just nailed it. But I
don't think it's the greatest breakup song of all time.
But once again my mind goes blank. There's hmm. I'd
(24:25):
have to think about that one too.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I do still want to answer though, on favorite lyric.
I don't care if you email, if that's fine, but
I mean for me as a you know what, it's funny.
I mean, I like, I've talked with so many people
out the songwriting thing. You know, let's let's talk about
that for one day before we wrap up on the album.
I mean, just to be nominated for the Songwriters Hall
of Fame, What does that mean? I mean, I feel
like it to be a blunt like that's as big
(24:51):
an honor as there is in.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Music pretty much. Yeah, that's kind of like you've you've
reached this echelon that only a few other people in
the world will ever get to. Yuts incredibly flattering and validating. Yeah,
it makes me. It sets the bar even higher. It's like, shit, now,
(25:14):
it's just something something that I have to you know,
when you get when you receive something like that, that
kind of validation, it's like, Okay, that bar just got
set a little bit higher, and I have to maintain
that now.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, so what's coming up now? I mean, it's funny
because I've talked with many people about the Rock Hall
of Fame, for example, and they're like, when they get in,
they say, that's like a halfway point. So now it's
been eleven record eleven years between records for you, But
now you have gotten back on the horse and ridden
that promotional bike and handled all the assholes like me.
(25:50):
So how do you like?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Everybody's been incredibly polite this time around and respectful. I
was surprised I.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Find most of it. I mean, I have a lot
of artist friends and they say it's very give you
a nonest.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Oh, but yeah, you're answering the same questions over and
over again, for sure, and well most of the stuff
you don't actually want to talk about, you know. It's
like talking about, you know, picking apart songs or why
you said this or why you wrote that and what
it meant like I don't fucking know. I just did.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Well, that's I think.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
I always love I'm obsessed with Nick Cave and he
has a great one in the book Faith Help and
Carnage where he says, you know, I'll be on stage
in a year and a half later. I'll be like, oh,
that's what that means.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Exactly. Yeah, or twenty years later where you you know,
I find myself because I did this anniversary tour of
you know, and hadn't listened to these songs in twenty years,
and you know, all of a sudden see these patterns
start to revolve. I'm like, oh, I was writing about
that twenty years ago and I'm still writing about it now.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
For a second, because I know we have to have
up in a minute. I got to talk to Shanaid
many times for Horsey Past, and she was amazing and
something she said was always so interesting to me and
always stuck with me. Since a writer, you have to
be careful because you can manifest things. She's like, you
write things, and they and you will them and do existence.
So when you think about things that you wrote thirty
(27:22):
years ago, what have been the things that came true
that surprised you? Is there anything you read about on
this album that you're like, I can't wait to see
that come true? And you know a year or two
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Ah well, I certainly hope that if this is the
end doesn't come true, there's rise is certainly a hopeful
lament the first version in particular, you know, sort of
thinking about what's going on in the world and if
we could just you know, change our perspective and treat
people decently and live and let live a little more,
(27:59):
things might be a little better. If we would just
remember that we all need each other. So there's a nice,
hopeful thing that I would like to manifest in the world.
Other than that, I would say these songs are fairly
self absorbed in the sense of, you know, what I was,
what I was going through at the time. You know,
(28:21):
Wilderness is I think a really good breakup song and
probably my most you know, storytelling kind of song. But
what would I like to manifest? I mean, I don't know,
that's just yeah, I've only just recently started doing that
because I've been sick so constantly, So I just I'm
not sick. I'm not sick. I am healthy. You know,
you're supposed to project all that you know, positivity, and
(28:45):
I'm like, I don't know if it works because I
keep getting sick.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
But yeah, I'm curious though, Mia and I know we
after a second, but you know, with the idea of
the manifesting for a second, were there things that you
now see that you wrote about years ago that surprisingly
came true or things that you didn't you know, And
sometimes as soon as like a few months later, you realize, oh,
like going back again to Nick Cave, he also once
(29:08):
told me, I write about whatever I'm missing. So if
I'm sad. I'll write a happy song. If I'm happy,
I'll write a sad song.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Hmm, yeah, I don't. I don't necessarily think about it
like that. I don't have a real I don't have
an answer for you because I don't feel like I'm
generally speaking. I guess I'm working towards a place of
(29:41):
peacefulness and satisfaction and being able to you know that
that sort of I get talking about, you know, always
setting the bar higher for myself of my own personal expectation,
in my own evolution, Like am I am I using
my platform for good? Am I showing up every day
(30:07):
as the best version of myself as the you know,
the best partner, the best mother, the best the best friend.
Am I continuing to create positive change in the world.
That might be am I being a you know, a
leech or am I being you know someone who is
is you know, giving and staying open and staying curious
(30:29):
and you know all that stuff. Sure I I kind
of talk about in the music, but it's a little
more esoteric than that. So yeah, I guess I'm part
of the Catharsis of writing music is about finding a
place to put the chaos and creating an environment for
(30:54):
myself anyway that that, you know, allows me to continue
to move forward and continue to be purposeful and continue
to strive to, you know, be a good version of
myself because I know in doing so, I am better
for other people and better for the world and better
(31:17):
for myself. I don't know if that's a good answer, but.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I mean, is there anything you want to add that
I did not ask you about?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Oh? I mean, I feel like I haven't answered half
of your questions.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
So it's funny because again that's what you know. I
was talking about artist friends, and it's like we do
joke about, you know, because as an artist like you say,
you don't want to have to do the self analysis
until assholes like me are like, well what do you
think about this and this and this? And you know,
that's like the joy of creating music because you don't
have to think. And then you talk to people like
me and we're like, well, blah blah blah. You know so,
(31:53):
but now it was great, always great catching up with
the other.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Oh, thank you, And I will try and think of
my favorite lyric for sure. Hm.
Hey, Steve Balton and this week on in Service of Man.
This is a really fun one, so I hope you
enjoyed this one as much as I did. But I
got to sit down with the iconic singer songwriter Sarah
McLaughlin to talk about the origins of A Little Bear,
her last album, her being a Mom, Jonny Mitchell, and
(00:22):
so much more. I've known Sarah for many years. I
always loved talking to her. This is a really fun,
enjoyable conversation with one of the coolest people in music.
So I hope you enjoyed this one as much as
I did. Well, thanks for being here today. It's good
(00:49):
to catch up with you. I know you have you know,
it's always an interesting thing. Eleven years between albums and
you have been hitting the promotional circuit heart. It's funny.
I've talked with a lot of artists. You say that,
you know, getting back on that bike is a lot
harder than getting back on the album bike. Has it been?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Uh No, I would agree with that. Yeah, I mean
that's part that's part of the trepidation of getting on
the album bike is knowing that you're going to have
to do all the work to promote it.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I mean, yeah, but it's interesting because you've had so
much of a promoter once with the documentary and everything, and.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
This perfect storm for sure. I mean, I could not
have timed it better, and it was just sheer luck
that everything, you know, the album, the album was done.
I mean, the album is done in December of the
year before, and they thought, let's wait till September. That's
the record label needed that much time to set it up.
I don't know why, but you know, again above my
(01:51):
pay grades. So it's like okay, sure, and then turns
out the documentary is coming out like the same week,
so that was crazy. So yeah, that would I think
that boosted everything because, as you know, one needs to
make all sorts of nois these days to rise above
the frame.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Well, you know, it's always an interesting thing too. I
find that we're talking with people, you know, with the
documentary coming out simultaneously, because most artists, by nature do
not like to look back. So you know, when you
look back at all that time, you know, not necessarily,
I mean, of course that leads you back musically as well,
(02:29):
but were there things that you sort of saw that
surprised you a little bit that then you realize still
applies so much to how you make music and the
way you think today.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I mean, I'm not particularly nostalgic, and I don't spend
much time looking back. I mean, I did just do
a filming towards sexty thirtieth anniversary tour, so it was
kind of forced back to that time as well, although
that was actually a little bit before, before Lilith. But
you know, it was kind of amazing. Obviously I've seen
all the iterations of the edits and stuff, but it
was amazing to sit in the audience and watch that
(03:02):
on the big screen and see three of the most
important years of my life so succinctly and joyously portrayed.
You know, this keepsake that I get to have in
my life and go back to. And I'd forgotten so much,
and it just reminded me, you know, of both the
you know, the the fantastic times, all the amazing musicians,
(03:27):
and those are the parts that I hold on to
when I think about Lilith. I didn't think about all
the stupid questions I got to asked, or the you know,
the the bomb threats and that stuff, Like I hardly
even remember that stuff. But it was interesting having all
that brought back into focus, the you know that all
the challenges, which again I kind of I vaguely remember,
(03:47):
but I was just you know, kind of on a
different plane most of the time because there was just
so much going on, and I was sort of I
was making I was part of the decision making process
on pretty much everything. And I was brought into oh
so and so it's not showed up. What do we do?
And I know, lots of fires to put out. And
(04:07):
I was very young and kind of green, and so
we were as were we all just like like Catherine
Rose said, we had no idea what we're doing, and
you know, we had to hire a bunch of people
in Seattle to go across the country because we had
we had no idea how big the thing was that
we had just built.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Well, it's funny that you say that, but well, okay,
I'm gonna go to different ways with this first. But
you know, when you say you were so young, I
mean one of the things I was thinking about with
this is there is an impetuousness to you that allows
you to be fearless. And it's funny. I mean, you know,
I think most of the time. I remember having a
conversation with Dave Growl not long ago, a couple of
years ago. Right, we were talking about you know, and
(04:48):
I think about like, I was at some BMI event
that I was covering for Rolling Stone, and in that
night I met Little Richard, Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley.
Now I would literally drop to my ease and pass out.
And then I was like, oh, you know, I was
in my twenties. I'm like, this will be every fucking night,
you know. I mean, it's funny when you look back
(05:09):
on it now, do you think that there was a
certain amount of like that youthfulness that allows you to
get away with it because you don't overthink things. You
just come up with an idea and.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
You're like absolutely absolutely. And that was that's why the
concept felt so simple. Say well, we're just going to
do this. What do you mean we can't? Of course
we can and we're going to. And that was just
kind of the impetus. It's like, well, fuck you, what
are you talking about? What are you saying we can't
do this. I've already been doing it. I'm going to
(05:42):
keep doing it, and I'm going to bring more people
along and do it even bigger, and yeah, and you
know it's that fake it tea to make it. And
for sure I didn't think it would fail. I never
thought for a second it would fail. I also didn't
have any idea of what kind of massive success would be.
But that is my innocence, and one might say ignorance
(06:03):
even in the music business where I was, you know,
somewhat sheltered and just like you know, and we're just like, well, yeah,
we'll figure it out as we go, and somehow worked.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
But the direction I want to go with that, it's
funny you said you're not nostalgic, no artist is. That's
why I asked specifically about the documentary because I remember
during COVID, right, I talked with so many artists who,
you know, we're doing anniversary projects greatest hits, and they
were like, this is the first time I've ever had
(06:35):
the opportunity to look back.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
To go back and listen to my old records, yeah,
and to.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Like think about what I've done. So that's why I
was asking if there were things that you noticed during
that time that you apply to making better broken and
like you know all that and like just that you
realize that like It's funny because you say that you
know there were things you remember about low Affair, because
when you're in the midst of it most of the
I've talked to so many artsts about this, you don't
(07:02):
even know what the hell's going on. Half the time,
you don't even know what city you're in.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, I would say if there's stuff I carried with me.
I've been pretty consistent in my life about following my gut,
and it's generally steered me in the right direction. There's
been some missteps, obviously, but you know, I learn a
(07:26):
lot from that too, And I think just that that
resilience of getting constant pushback about certain things in your
life where you're like, well, you can't do that, or
you shouldn't be doing that, or you can't say that.
It's like, but this is how I feel, and this
(07:47):
is what I want to do, and I'm going to
do it. And I've been pretty consistently bullheaded in that
way throughout my life, and certainly the success of lol
of may Well have you know, really solidify that that
ideology and me, I think I was always like that.
I've always been very stubborn and always kind of wanted
(08:08):
to you know, go my own way. And you know,
I think my second record, I remember all sorts of
challenges with the record label, and I phoned up my
manager and said, well, I'm not interested in being on
a major label if this is what it is, because
I'm not compromising. I don't want to be an ard
and because I didn't give it. You know, I didn't
(08:31):
give a shit. I didn't give a shit about the
rich and famous part. I was like that that wasn't
the north Star. North Star was pleasing myself and making
music that I felt proud of. And I was young
enough and green enough, and I even have to think
I could actually dare to dream that.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
It's so funny you say that now, though, because I
remember seeing a couple of years ago, I reviewed the
Joney Jam show at the Gorge for a rolling Stone,
and I've met through you know Cameron, and you know
she I think is probably the benchmark for that, like
stubborn and bullheaded. And are there artists that you look
at or that you learn from about like you know,
(09:10):
maybe when you start off and seeing that justic youth,
but then as you get older, you know, there are
those people that you know, you see it. It's funny
because as you were talking about being bullet, I was
just thinking about it. I got to email to day
about a new book from Audie DeFranco. I fucking love
Audie DeFranco. And she has always been one of those
artists as well who just does everything her own way.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, oh yeah, I mean, and that's like times a thousand,
Like you know, I look at someone like that and
I'm just like, I'm so in awe because you know,
it's still I still also have my you know, remnants
of the way I was brought up, which was keep
your mouth shut and you don't have you don't get
(09:54):
to have an opinion. So that's, you know, the other
thing that sort of fought against my entire life. But yeah,
like Joan Osborne, Joe, oh yes, Joan Osborne. Yes, she
was having a metopausal moment. Like Joan Osborne's documentary of
Texas approached the pro life thing and she's like, well,
(10:15):
we didn't I didn't agree to any of this. I'm worried.
I'm I'm gonna wear my T shirt. And I was like,
I was like, on one hand, I'm like, fuck, John,
You're just now I'm gonna get all this shit, but
I'm like, God, damn, I'm so proud of you for
doing that too.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, I mean it's amazing that like the stories, and
you know, it's funny that you say that, it's like
times a thousand, but when you look back then on
what you did, and I don't want to spend you know,
I want to talk about the new record, but it
just is interesting that you say that, because I mean, look,
you created a fucking revolution. And it's funny because I
know everybody from that era, and I talked with Cheryl
(10:52):
and Melissa a couple of months apart a few years ago,
and they were saying they both kind of were, you know,
told well, we got play two women at rock radio
at the same time, or we can't add to women.
So it's funny that you say it because you literally, like, say,
you know Annie's times a thousand, and yes, Annie is
like one of the ultimate badasses, but you also created
(11:13):
a revolution.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I think we all together created a revolution. You know,
I don't take credit for that. I take credit for
bringing everybody together, but everybody else had to agree to
participate in this thing, and by doing so created a
momentum that was impossible to ignore.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Someone had to lead the way. And it's interesting. I
mean what you look back on, is there somewhere that
you see in you again that sort of leads you
to that, you know, sort of a turning point moment
where you see yourself as being that leader, you know,
where you just realize that, you know, because a lot
of people, especially music, are afraid to be I mean
(12:02):
especially in music twenty twenty five, it's fucking pathetic. Everybody's like, well,
what is Taylor Swifts stay about saying I love Taylor
no back to her, but you know, like the media
and everybody is like, well, what does she say? What
does you know this person say? What does Sabrina say?
So it's like, you know, there isn't follow mentality in music,
So do you look back and see where you became
(12:23):
that leader mentality?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
It's just not something I think about. I I believe
wholeheartedly in team. Like you know, I can't. I can't
do any of what I do by myself. I mean
I can write the songs by myself, but even it's
like why I love working with other musicians and producers
to bring the music to a different place than I
(12:57):
would be able to bring it on my own. I mean,
I have I have a great platform, and you know,
I think I have a I have an amazing fan base,
and I just don't I don't think about myself as
a leader. I know, I know I'm the boss on tour,
but I'm pretty you know, I'm pretty easy going about
(13:18):
that as long as you know, just do your job
well and it's all you need to do. Just show
up and do your fucking job and don't ask me
for a medal because you know you've been here a week.
And I just that that whole mentality of you know, well,
I'm only gonna I want. I want one hundred and
fifty thousand dollars a year, but I'm only gonna work
till four thirty. And you know I won't take mike,
(13:41):
I won't take calls after that. I'm like, like, I'll
clean fucking toilets if I have to get the whatever
it takes to get the job done. And I miss that.
But don't get me going.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
No. I love what you're saying though, too, about collaborating me.
It's funny. I was just watching the video for it
reminds me and I adore Katie. I've known Katie since
she was in Grammy Camp And there's a moment where
she starts singing in the video and you are like beaming. Hint, No,
do you still keep that like you know, we've talked
in the past about the cerebral lawth in school. Do
(14:12):
you always keep that sort of mentor mentality where it's
just like you just can't help be excited for young musicians.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, and you know, it's kind of like a mothering
thing too, like and I mean, Katie's not that much
younger than me, but it's it's very cool to meet
younger musicians and find out that they're you know, they're
not only a fan of my music, but they're they're
a fan of Lilith and they say, you know that
the stories that they tell me about what that did
for them, that part's very cool and you know that
(14:44):
that recognition that is like, it's cool to be in
this place in my life where I actually might have
something to offer to younger musicians in terms of, you know,
just the experiences I've had. I mean, it's like anything,
it's an intimate path. You know, everybody's journey is different,
but there are certainly some you know, common truisms about
(15:05):
being in the industry, not only as an artist, as
a woman in particular. And it is nice to be
able to, if asked for advice, at least offer, you know,
some of the things that I know to be true
for myself.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
And yet it's so funny because I love that you
say about like a mother of mentality, and yet I've
talked about this with the baddest mother in the music industry,
Patti Smith. At the end of the day, you are
still just parent. And I was reading one of the
things where you talked about the fact that it was
like your one fear of this record was the song
you wrote for your daughter, and you're like, oh shit,
that I pushed you far. And I love that no
(15:41):
matter who you are, you're never cool to your kids.
It doesn't matter if you literally are packed Smith, I.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Was so, I'm so uncool. I have someone else doing
my social media and she said, oh, you need to
do this ASMR thing. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Oh, okay,
I'll go do this, And I said, I'm going to
tell you right now, my eighteen year old is going
to eviscerate me for this. And sure enough, we posted
it and then like five minutes later, my daughter's like,
(16:11):
take this down right now. This is horriful. Well I
don't I show my bandmates who are on their fifties.
They're like, oh, this is so funny. So I said,
you know, honey, you are not my audience anyway. Yeah,
(16:32):
do you know what cool? We're never cool for our kids.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
You're not supposed to be though. If you are, there's
something wrong. Yeah, exactly, you know, But I mean there
still is that point of pride of like, so, is
there anything you have done where they're like okay? Or
was there one or was there one moment on this
record where they're like okay? You know that is a
little like it's funny. I remember talking with Shaq and
(16:57):
he was like, I wasn't cool to my kids. So
I introduced him to Miley Iris. Then I got points.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yep, yep. Well the only time my kids thought I
was a little bit cool was the first time they
actually came to a show. Because my kids never came
to my shows. They weren't interested. And they came to
a show in Toronto. It's like fourteen thousand people and
everybody's screaming. You know, I love you, Sarah, and they're like, oh,
you're actually legit, like people actually like like your music.
(17:27):
And it just felt kind of like a Taylor Swift
concert in terms of, you know, the adoration of the fans,
and it was like, for a brief moment, I kind
of was elevated in their eyes. It didn't last long, but.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, wait, we're gonna speech gears for one second. Speaking
of Taylor, you and her were both nominated for Songwriters
Hall of Fame. Now, I have been obsessing with this
question lately as a writing fan. I've been asking everybody,
what's your favorite lyric of hers of all time? Favorite
(18:03):
lyric of all time?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
I almost always go blank on these things. I have
to think about that. There isn't one line in particular.
I don't have one song in particular that I just love.
I mean, it'll probably be a Joni song. It'd probably
be off Blue, because yeah, lyrically she's the queen. But yeah,
i'd be hard pressed to You'd need to let me
(18:29):
get back to you on that, all.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Right, fair, but I'm gonna be looking for an email answer.
But it's funny as soon as you say, I mean,
how the fun could you go wrong? With the case
of Yell. The lyrics of that song are flawless.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
It's flawless. Well, the whole album is flawless. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Blue.
I mean, you can quote anything from there and I'd
agree with you.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Joke favorite lyric off better broken because it's funny, like you,
you know you and I've talked about this in the past,
and I talked about this to everybody. So much of
writing and subconscious things will come out and you're like
not even aware that you wrote it until you go
back and listen to it. So are there any moments
on this one that really stand out to you where
you're just like that, you know, I mean, it's like
it's almost it feels so many people have described it
(19:17):
to me as like someone else wrote the line.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Again, I draw a blank. I'd have to go read
all my lyrics and I'm serious, this is my eight
D brain. Yeah, I don't. I don't think I don't
have a favorite line or anything that. I mean again,
I don't. I'd have to go listen. I'd have to
go read them all and have one jump out at me.
To answer that question, that's fair.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Have there been like moments that I mean, when you've
been touring the record, what have been the songs that
this is always interested too, Like you may have a
favorite song of the record and then someone else is like, eh,
but then that song that was like, you know, barely
made the album everybody goes crazy over live. So would
have been the songs that have surprised you with the responses?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
One on a long line, but it doesn't really surprise
me considering my largely female audience. That one's fun to sing,
because I mean it's fun to sing. It's actually it's
a challenging song to sing, and it's challenging for me
to keep my energy calm when I'm singing it too,
although one would argue, I, you know, to be more honest,
I kind of get I get into it, but then
(20:22):
I'm like, I have to calm my nervous system down
after I'm done singing it because I'm just like pissed off,
and then I have to kind of bring it down.
It's like, so that one's kind of surprised me. I mean,
I think the way people have instantly kind of recognized
the energy of gravity. I've played that a bunch, and
people like mothers in particular, have come up to me
(20:44):
afterwards and they're like, oh my god, and then you've
heard it for the first time and they're sobbing and
they're like it's a You know, every every parent or
most parents, I think, you know, can strongly relate to
a song like that where you know, at some point
your kid is facing challenges or struggling and you don't
(21:07):
know how to reach them. You don't know what to do,
you don't know what the answer is. You want to
fix it, but you can't. There's things that you can't fix,
and you know that you have to just let them
go through it and figure it out on their own.
But it's really hard seeing your kids struggling.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I mean, that's interesting gag. Going back to the idea
of stuff being so conscious, was that something you were
aware of as you were writing it, or was it
more like.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, I mean I wrote the chorus. I think I
wrote the chorus and no, no, I was going, oh, yeah,
we're sort of we're on the other side of it.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
But when you talk about subconscious, yeah, I mean things
just kind of come out and then like pieces of
lyrics or a piece of a verse or chorus come out,
and then it's like, well, where did that come from?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
You know, and then the work of mining that idea further,
like why did I say that? Why do I feel
that way? Like where does that come from? How do
I how do I eke two more versus another chorus
out of this and you know, and create a you know,
a real story. But I was sort of I definitely
(22:19):
was going through it with my daughter about a year before,
and quite often I can't write when I'm in the
situation I need. I need perspective and distance from it
to be able to, I think, for it to be good.
I've written plenty of you know, heartbreak, you know, broken
up songs that no one will ever hear, because you know,
(22:40):
I listened to it six months later, I'm like, oh
my god, what a fucking victim. Like, no one's ever
going to hear that shit. But you have to write,
you know, it's like diary, It's like journaling. You know,
that shit's not meant for public consumption.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
There will never be like a well, you know, like
break Seeing seven album box set. There will never be
the Sarah macloughlain Breakoup box set.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Well, you know, I suppose if you combine a lot
of songs that already exist. There might be one, but
already those are the you know, the ones that are
that I felt were acceptable to release to the world.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
And now I have to ask quickly before we wrap up,
what is the greatest breakup song of all time? Your favorite?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
You know what? I keep going back to and I
remember this, and in particular because I went through a
hainous breakup around the same time that Kesha song what
is it called? Do you know the one? I mean
where she goes she goes crazy high in the the
end of the chorus.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I can google it. I'm not sure. I'm not familiar
with her stuff, not that she's not great, but I'm
just you know, it.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Was just, you know, and it might not even be
that great a song. I just remember like listening to
that going I'm being so angry and so hurt, and
I'm like, yeah, well she just nailed it. But I
don't think it's the greatest breakup song of all time.
But once again my mind goes blank. There's hmm. I'd
(24:25):
have to think about that one too.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I do still want to answer though, on favorite lyric.
I don't care if you email, if that's fine, but
I mean for me as a you know what, it's funny.
I mean, I like, I've talked with so many people
out the songwriting thing. You know, let's let's talk about
that for one day before we wrap up on the album.
I mean, just to be nominated for the Songwriters Hall
of Fame, What does that mean? I mean, I feel
like it to be a blunt like that's as big
(24:51):
an honor as there is in.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Music pretty much. Yeah, that's kind of like you've you've
reached this echelon that only a few other people in
the world will ever get to. Yuts incredibly flattering and validating. Yeah,
it makes me. It sets the bar even higher. It's like, shit, now,
(25:14):
it's just something something that I have to you know,
when you get when you receive something like that, that
kind of validation, it's like, Okay, that bar just got
set a little bit higher, and I have to maintain
that now.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, so what's coming up now? I mean, it's funny
because I've talked with many people about the Rock Hall
of Fame, for example, and they're like, when they get in,
they say, that's like a halfway point. So now it's
been eleven record eleven years between records for you, But
now you have gotten back on the horse and ridden
that promotional bike and handled all the assholes like me.
(25:50):
So how do you like?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Everybody's been incredibly polite this time around and respectful. I
was surprised I.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Find most of it. I mean, I have a lot
of artist friends and they say it's very give you
a nonest.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Oh, but yeah, you're answering the same questions over and
over again, for sure, and well most of the stuff
you don't actually want to talk about, you know. It's
like talking about, you know, picking apart songs or why
you said this or why you wrote that and what
it meant like I don't fucking know. I just did.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Well, that's I think.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
I always love I'm obsessed with Nick Cave and he
has a great one in the book Faith Help and
Carnage where he says, you know, I'll be on stage
in a year and a half later. I'll be like, oh,
that's what that means.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Exactly. Yeah, or twenty years later where you you know,
I find myself because I did this anniversary tour of
you know, and hadn't listened to these songs in twenty years,
and you know, all of a sudden see these patterns
start to revolve. I'm like, oh, I was writing about
that twenty years ago and I'm still writing about it now.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
For a second, because I know we have to have
up in a minute. I got to talk to Shanaid
many times for Horsey Past, and she was amazing and
something she said was always so interesting to me and
always stuck with me. Since a writer, you have to
be careful because you can manifest things. She's like, you
write things, and they and you will them and do existence.
So when you think about things that you wrote thirty
(27:22):
years ago, what have been the things that came true
that surprised you? Is there anything you read about on
this album that you're like, I can't wait to see
that come true? And you know a year or two
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Ah well, I certainly hope that if this is the
end doesn't come true, there's rise is certainly a hopeful
lament the first version in particular, you know, sort of
thinking about what's going on in the world and if
we could just you know, change our perspective and treat
people decently and live and let live a little more,
(27:59):
things might be a little better. If we would just
remember that we all need each other. So there's a nice,
hopeful thing that I would like to manifest in the world.
Other than that, I would say these songs are fairly
self absorbed in the sense of, you know, what I was,
what I was going through at the time. You know,
(28:21):
Wilderness is I think a really good breakup song and
probably my most you know, storytelling kind of song. But
what would I like to manifest? I mean, I don't know,
that's just yeah, I've only just recently started doing that
because I've been sick so constantly, So I just I'm
not sick. I'm not sick. I am healthy. You know,
you're supposed to project all that you know, positivity, and
(28:45):
I'm like, I don't know if it works because I
keep getting sick.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
But yeah, I'm curious though, Mia and I know we
after a second, but you know, with the idea of
the manifesting for a second, were there things that you
now see that you wrote about years ago that surprisingly
came true or things that you didn't you know, And
sometimes as soon as like a few months later, you realize, oh,
like going back again to Nick Cave, he also once
(29:08):
told me, I write about whatever I'm missing. So if
I'm sad. I'll write a happy song. If I'm happy,
I'll write a sad song.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Hmm, yeah, I don't. I don't necessarily think about it
like that. I don't have a real I don't have
an answer for you because I don't feel like I'm
generally speaking. I guess I'm working towards a place of
(29:41):
peacefulness and satisfaction and being able to you know that
that sort of I get talking about, you know, always
setting the bar higher for myself of my own personal expectation,
in my own evolution, Like am I am I using
my platform for good? Am I showing up every day
(30:07):
as the best version of myself as the you know,
the best partner, the best mother, the best the best friend.
Am I continuing to create positive change in the world.
That might be am I being a you know, a
leech or am I being you know someone who is
is you know, giving and staying open and staying curious
(30:29):
and you know all that stuff. Sure I I kind
of talk about in the music, but it's a little
more esoteric than that. So yeah, I guess I'm part
of the Catharsis of writing music is about finding a
place to put the chaos and creating an environment for
(30:54):
myself anyway that that, you know, allows me to continue
to move forward and continue to be purposeful and continue
to strive to, you know, be a good version of
myself because I know in doing so, I am better
for other people and better for the world and better
(31:17):
for myself. I don't know if that's a good answer, but.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I mean, is there anything you want to add that
I did not ask you about?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Oh? I mean, I feel like I haven't answered half
of your questions.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
So it's funny because again that's what you know. I
was talking about artist friends, and it's like we do
joke about, you know, because as an artist like you say,
you don't want to have to do the self analysis
until assholes like me are like, well what do you
think about this and this and this? And you know,
that's like the joy of creating music because you don't
have to think. And then you talk to people like
me and we're like, well, blah blah blah. You know so,
(31:53):
but now it was great, always great catching up with
the other.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Oh, thank you, And I will try and think of
my favorite lyric for sure. Hm.
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