April 8, 2026 • 58 mins
On this week's In Service Of, host Steve Baltin sits down with Glenn Tillbrook and Chris Difford, the iconic songwriting duo known as Squeeze. The British band known for hits like 'Black Coffee In Bed.' 'Tempted' and 'Pulling Mussels From The Shell" talk about their brilliant new album, 'Trixies,' a concept album written in the early 1970s and finally recorded half a century later.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey to Steve.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Balton, and welcome back to in service of this week
is a very special episode. I know I say that
a lot, but we do get to talk to really
frequent cool people like Chris Difford and Glenn Tilbrook of
the iconic British fan Squeeze. Maybe you're thinking who, but
you know Black Coffee and bed tempted pulling muscles from Michelle,
(00:31):
I would argue that different and Tilbrook are probably the
most respected. We're the songwriting duo after McCartney and Lennon
and after Richard and Jagger. People love Squeeze as a
really fun conversation I had with them about a fascinating project.
Fifteen years after they wrote their first album, Tricksies, they've
(00:54):
gone back and recorded it, and they wrote a concept
album about a fictional club back in nineteen seventy four
and never recorded it, and it is truly fascinating to
see how this album that they wrote more than a
half a century ago holds up and feels relevant today.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Very cool, interesting conversation, and of course we talk a
ton about songwriting, so hope you find this one as
interesting as I did. Because man, and of course he's
we're going to separate interviews because they both wanted a
chance to express themselves. So you get an hour of
two of the greatest first songwriters of the last forty
(01:34):
to fifty years thanks to Wow. That is a very
very very interesting, uh juxtaposition of great visiting the album
(01:58):
from fifty two years ago. Well at the same time
having two new grandchildren. Talk about a you know, contrast
of generations.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Well, it really is.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
And you know, when I look back at all of
those years that have passed, it's an extraordinary journey. Very
grateful for that journey, of course. But you know, I
was I was reading the other day or an interview
actually with the violence violinist John Sherper, who has the
(02:35):
Cronus Quartet, and he said that for he's he's been
you know, he's been giving himself to his his performances
and to his people that come and see the quartet
(02:55):
for all of his life. But now he's seventy, it's
time for him to give care as a grandfather and
discover new music and hobbies. So maybe that's maybe that's
something to bear in mind.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I mean, you know, I know, well, Ellen, John talked
about retiring a few years ago and only does you know,
occasional shows now to be a father, you know, I mean,
is it something that as you you know, is that
something that you think about for yourself or it's funny.
I mean, lenn and I had a wonderful conversation a
week ago, and you know, we talked about revisiting Galvium
(03:34):
from so long ago. But it wasn't something that brought
up in terms of like aging. It was more like interesting,
you know, to look at it from the respective of
how your own life has changed so much over that time.
But certainly, you know, there wasn't really talk of slowing down.
And I know you guys are doing a phenomenal tour
this year. You know, you're touring with some great bands.
(03:57):
So are you still enjoying it as much as you
ever did?
Speaker 4 (04:02):
I think it's a different kind of experience. You know,
when you're young and you don't have any fear and
you're in the back of a van touring around, you
kind of experience it from that angle. But when you're older,
like I'm seventy two this year, I'm taking it a
little bit slower because I have to and I have
to respect that. You know, my time, my time here
(04:28):
is kind of limited in a way because you know,
my youth, if you like, has been and it isn't here.
And now I'm in an age where I don't know.
You know, when you're young, you never think you're going
to reach thirty, and then when you're thirty, you never
reached you think you're going to reach forty, and then
(04:49):
when you're seventy two, you don't know if you're going
to reach eighty or even seventy three. So you're kind
of aware of time a little more than you used
to be.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
And yet there is like it's interesting because everybody, I
think approaches it so differently. And it's funny because you know,
I'm a huge Springsteen fan, my favorite artist. And it
was funny when he did a Q and A talking
about the film that came out last year, the Bio Pick.
Someone asked him, well, why did you do the bio
Pick now, you know, after having been so private his
(05:20):
whole life, And his response was, because I'm old and
I don't give a fuck anymore.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
I love Bruce Springsteen.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I went to see his one man show in New
York and it was a huge inspiration for me. You know,
the guy came out and told the story, he played
the songs. I mean, what's not to like? I love him.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, it's interesting now how his approach to aging seems
different than yours. I mean it's funny because there does
seem to be for some people a little bit fearlessness
as they get older too, because you know, you've already
accomplished so much and as you say, you've kind of
gone beyond where you ever expected.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
Yeah, that's true. And you know, I think when you're
it's different for someone like you know, huge like Bruce
Springsteen or Billy Joel. You know, these people have incredible
wealth of let alone that their time on the planet.
(06:23):
You know, we're a bit further down the fruit tree.
You know, there's not a lot of fruit down here
at the bottom, but what there is it tastes good.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Interesting analogy, all right, So what's the fruit down at
the bottom, Then that tastes good.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Well.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
The new album and you know, having people Owen Biddle
produce it for you, you know, that's the fruit that I
kind of feel very grateful for.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
And again when you guys tour this year, I mean
what's interesting is there's always been an audience and you know,
like you're in La. I'm based in LA. I know
you're playing the Hollywood Ball and I believe you're playing
with Human League and Alison Moya. I fucking love Alison
by by the way. So I mean, but that's like
you have great artists supporting you and you're playing in
(07:14):
you know, a venue the Beatles in the Door have
played in.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Well, yeah, I mean we've played it before, so you know,
I don't remember it, but I'm really looking forward to
playing it, of course.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
And you know, I think.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
It's time that we played places like that, you know,
I think it's it's it's it's about time that we
came on to a bigger stage and performed trickses and
whatever else we're going to do.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah, that's an interesting thing. We haven't even talked yet
about tricks and it's funny for you. I love the record,
by the way, And it was interesting too because I
was talking about with Glenn there are songs on that
record that feel like they could have been written today.
So were you surprised by how well the record holds up?
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Yeah, of course I am, and I'm very grateful for it.
I think it sounds amazing and everybody that was involved
in the record has done a great job, all the musicians.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
You know. I think.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
It's exactly how I dreamt it might be.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Well, wait, it's funny when you say it's exactly how
you drept it might be. Is it how you draft
it might be when you started revisiting it, or is
it how you draft it would be in nineteen seventy
four when you started it?
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Oh, when we started really recording it last year. Really
it's a journey that you know, in nineteen seventy four,
I had no idea what it would sound like, and
I'm extremely pleased that it sounds as good as it does.
But let's be because it's been in very good hands,
(09:03):
you know. I mean, it's just.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
It's it's a real turning.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
It's a real sort of step stepping stone from the
past into what might or might not be the future.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
It's interesting, I mean, for you wore these songs in particular,
that you were surprised that they kind of felt, I guess,
for lack of a better word, prophetic.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
I had no expectations of any of the songs and
what they would end up being like. But when you know,
I sat in the room when they were being recorded,
with the band and every beat and every time we
got to a new song, I was thrilled and it
was it just felt like something fresh and new, even
(09:57):
though it was fifty years old.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So for you, I mean, you know, I guess you
know GAVI's question. I always hate to ask the obvious question.
Why at this point, you know, when you guys started
re recording it, did it feel like this was the
right time.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
It just did, and you know it just you know,
we could put another album out full of songs, but
just be another album full of songs. You know, everybody
does that. Nobody does this. This is the first time
I know of a band that have gone back to
the beginning and created something as as ambitious as this.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
It is interesting, I agree with you. And what's funny
because you know, as someone who talks to so many bands,
the reason I find that, you know most bands in general,
it's like, it's very interesting during COVID because all these
bands I talked to were, you know, looking at either
greatest hits or documentaries or things like that, and so
(11:05):
many bands I talked to were like, well, we never
have time to look back. This is the first time
we've had the opportunity to do something unusual for bands
to look back, So I think that's part of the
reason why. But for you guys, again, it doesn't really
feel like looking back. If you didn't know the backstory
of this record, it'd be curious. But I bet most
(11:27):
people would have no idea that this record was written
fifty years ago.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
Very good point. I think there's been enough press and
people talking about it that people will know it was written. Then,
you know, when we come out on stage and perform it,
I guess people are going to say, well, that's you know,
where did that come from? And would explain it obviously,
and it sounds sounds head and shoulders above some of
(11:55):
the other stuff.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah, so wait, are you considering doing it all the
way through in its entirety live?
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Yeah, like forty three minutes and you know we can
do that and then straight into pulling muscles for Michelle
and no one will know the difference.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
You know. That's the other thing that's interesting about it is, well, okay,
first of all, I've talked about this with so many people,
and when you do songs, you know, when you do
new material, it kind of can put older songs in context.
So on this upcoming tour. Are there songs that you're
really looking forward to revasing and you know, first of all,
(12:40):
looking forward to revisiting in context of this other material
that was written fifty years ago but you've never played
on stage before.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Well, that's all to be discovered.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
I don't really know what it's going to be like
to you know, I think if I go and see
a band and they perform forty three minutes of a
record I've never heard before, I'm going to have to
really think about it. But you know, I remember going
to see Elton John perform Captain Fantastic and that was,
you know, a whole album that he played from beginning
(13:13):
to end, and you know what wasn't so like? It
was such a brilliant songiant brilliant album.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Well the other thing is too, as you mentioned earlier,
what a journey and so for you, are there songs
that now you hear in a different way because again,
these songs are fifty years old, But there are also
songs you've had over the years that have been hits
that are familiar with audiences, but nevertheless they might change
your meaning because you're a different person. You've now had
(13:43):
a whole life a whole experience that is so different
than you know, when you originally wrote Black Coffee and
back or tempted or pulling muscles from the shelf. You're
a whole different person.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Yeah, I kind of. I don't know what I feel
about it. Really.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I think I just take it as it comes. And
I am a different person from a nineteen year old
that wrote it. Of course I am. I'm seventy two.
But you know, I think I can look at it
now as almost a theater piece, and you know, we'll
go on stage, we perform it, it will sound good,
(14:25):
and I'm hoping that the audience will be able to
embrace the risk that we are taking.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
For you, what's the risk?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
People don't like it?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
But yet you know that people like this because at
least when it comes to the older heads, you know,
there is that like the proven.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
I mean, I'm being silly, really, but in fact, in
many ways, I'm not really responding to how people feel
about it. If you feel confident, than the audience will
feel confident. There's nothing to fear. There really isn't, you know,
even if you get it wrong, there's nothing to fear.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
It's not.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
You know, it's it can't be a fearful project, otherwise
it will never work.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
What I found is someone who's been in the audience
so many times. It's less about I mean, from the
audience perspective, it feels like it's more just the the
artist is having fun, like that's the most important thing.
I want their names, but I remember seeing one band
on a reunion who clearly and they publicly said they
hated each other and it was the most miserable show.
(15:40):
But when you're watching a band, even if it's not
the greatest band, and they're having a good time, you know,
that's just infectious.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
Well it is, of course it is, and we all
want to see bands like that, you know. You know,
just recently watching Radiohead get back on stage. You know,
the performance was extraordinary and it's lovely to see a
young band that they once were still being able to
go on stage and create something very special.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
For you guys, I mean, you know, when you have
like this material that sat with you for so many
years that you've always wanted to bring the stage, you know,
do you feel like, again you haven't performed tricks as yet,
but do you feel like it'll have that same kind
of feeling that you're talking about for Radiohead, because I mean,
(16:32):
you know, just going up there and having new material
to do it makes it so.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Fun Personally, I don't want to overthink it. I just
just want to do it. And you know, I think
I think people will enjoy it. And it's a theater
piece in many ways, and I think that was really important.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Well, it's funny it's a theater piece. I was just
going to ask that, is it is a whole concept.
Is it something you would ever want to see made
into like a theatrical piece or something else?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Like I really do.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
A passion of mine without a doubt to see it,
to hear it on stage as a play, that would
just make that would be like I could retire just
seeing that.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
All right. So you mentioned seeing springsing on Broadway. You know,
obviously go all the way back to the who wore
one of the greatest fans of all time, you know,
and did Tommy and Quadraphini on stage, and then you
had go all the way up to Green Day, who
had an American idiot comes to stage. Have there been any
stage adaptions you've seen that would inspire the idea of
(17:50):
this in terms of just not you know, obviously, you
guys are doing your own thing and it's your own plane,
your own thing that you wrote, but just that you
saw like that really blew you away.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Well, not in the same way that.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
This is going to be performed, I don't think, you know,
I don't really see a lot of live music at all,
and what I do see is very individual and probably
not like that at all. But when I watch somebody
(18:32):
like David Byrne who can recreate his history in a
new and different way, I think that's amazing. I don't
think I don't think I could do that, but I
think it's amazing that he's taken the time to work
something out so it's not just going on stage and
playing the songs.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
You know, I'm not.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Advocating it for Squeeze, because I don't I think it
would look a little bit. But I think the fact
that somebody like him, or somebody like Bruce Springsteen doing
the storytelling, it's wonderful, you know, wonderful to see that
kind of stuff, and you know our audiences can appreciate that,
(19:17):
I believe.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Well, yeah, I mean, I imagine it's very inspiring as well.
And even when you go back. I'm sure there are
artists that you've looked to over the years that you've
enjoyed for you know, the way they've been able to
evolve and adapt. And you know, again you look at
people like Bowie of course, or Johnny Mitchell or so
many of those people who were able to become completely
new artists fifty years of their career well.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
Exactly, and you know that's that's an inspiration in itself.
You know, Bowie was very very good at doing that,
and Johnny Mitchell, you know to a degree, James Taylor,
and Paul Simon who's out on the road which is
extraordinary in my book.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Agree, in his new album, it's just like exceptional.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah, it is interesting. I mean there, you know, so
when you look at it for you guys, I mean
it's funny because you talk about slowing down, but at
the same time, you know, like we talked about, you
have this album that's wonderful, the tour. I mean, is
there a part of you when you look at all
the artists who've been able to do it, that feels
maybe as invigorated in a different way. I mean, obviously
(20:30):
you have to slow down because you can't probably two
or three hundred days a year anymore the way that
you still but I mean creatively, do you still feel
as invigorated?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yeah, I creative.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
I write most days if I can. I'm not trapped
by that. I enjoy writing. That's my hobby, and songwriting
that I do with other people and on my own.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
It's really important, you know.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
It's kind of like a muscle that I have to
keep using because I don't know where it's going to
take me. So you know, from one story to the next,
it's all there somewhere outside and waiting to come in.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
It's interesting he's saying that you don't know where it's
going to take you. Because I've talked about this with
I mean so many songwriters, and I got the chance
a couple of years ago to talk with Mike Stoller,
you know, who's obviously iconic, legendary, one of the greatest
songwriters of all time, half of Lee Bird Stoller. He
wrote stand By Me, which might be the greatest song ever.
(21:51):
And it was funny because he said, we were talking
about songwriting and he's like, I have no idea where
it comes from. Nobody does, you know? And I found
that so inspiring that he said that at ninety something
years old. So is there still that mystery for you
that also keeps it invigorating because, like you said, or
like he says, like everybody says, it's going to come
(22:11):
from somewhere, but no idea where. The way that people
have described to me is you have the antenna up
and the messages has come in.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
I mean you sit and quite often I'm sitting at
home and I'm looking out the window and my wife
will say to me, what are you doing? And I say,
I'm writing a song and she says, well, it doesn't
look like it.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Like it.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Sometimes you have to look out the window for hours
on end for the song to arrive, and sometimes it
just sort of falls. It falls in front of you.
And all the best kind of songs, I don't know
where they come from. I don't overthink it. I think
people that overthink songs are wasting their time. The energy
(22:57):
of spontaneity is really it can't be beaten. It's the
most beautiful thing that's that's nature in itself.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
So there have been those songs that have come to you.
Then you know, and again, I've talked to so many
artis about this like a song will come instantly, you know,
and they have no idea why or where. Again, the
great example I always use is from my favorite example,
someone telling me Jimmy Cliff, who you know we lost
last year, was such an icon, and he told me
(23:29):
he wrote The Herder. They come in ten minutes on
the way to the studio in New York. You know,
have you had those songs where you're just like, it
comes in like lightning, and you're just like, where the
hell did that come from? It's a great song, but
I don't know where it hit from.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Yep, all the time, all the time, you know, Whenever
I sit down and something comes like that in the
next ten minutes, that's great. If it takes longer than
ten minutes, then I've lost it.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Interesting, are there ones I'm drew then over the years
where now you can look back and say, Okay, at
the time, I didn't know where that came from, but
now I get it.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
I think maybe in retirement I might be able to
look at each song individually instead.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Oh, that was what That's what that was about.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
You know, Eventually, when time slows down and you get
to get to be able to focus on what you've
done in your career. But for the time being, I can't.
I can't even focus on that stuff. It's kind of
just out that.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
You know, it's funny because you talk about springs down Broadway.
Obviously you guys have enough material. Would you ever do
something like that because I'm actually it will be interesting
as well because it does kind of put the songs
in context for you guys as well.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
When I do my solo tour on my own, then
I took inspiration from him, so I have an iPad
on stage loop stories around each song, so it's it's
about the whole journey from the beginning of the show
to the end of the show, and for it to
have a beginning and middle and an end that kind
(25:14):
of sows everything together. And I think that's for me
that's really important. I don't think I could do that
with anybody else. That would just have to be me.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
So it's funny when you did that, though doesn't put
stuff in context. And again taking it back to Trixs
because we're not have to wrap up in a minute.
But you know, again, looking at this album that was
fifty years ago, are you able to now look at
the songs much differently than you did then and say, okay,
now I kind of see what inspired this or you
(25:46):
know where this particular song came from, or you know, again,
it's a very ambitious project for you know that age,
and like I look at the example of I got
to see Jodi Mitchell a few years ago at the
Gorge and both sides now, you know, I mean, was
a brilliant song what you wrote it when she was
twenty two. When she's eighty years old and it's nearly died,
(26:06):
it's a completely different song.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
Yeah. I don't know what to say to that, really,
because the you know, the when I look back at
our catalog of songs, I'm so proud of all of them,
and they all stand in their own ground in a
(26:32):
very special way. And yes, they are different from what
they you know, sat what they were when they were conceived,
if you like, and recorded originally. However, you know, when
I do Squeeze songs in my own show, I do
(26:54):
them like me. I don't do them like Squeeze because
I can't and also it would be unfair to the audience.
So you know, there's a story to be told, and
it keeps on coming, which is good news.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yeah, So for you, what is that story today when
you look at that story in context? What is the
story that you're telling today?
Speaker 4 (27:25):
So it depends what you're saying, really, because when I'm
telling a story today, I'm looking at I'm looking at
tricks as this being something that two people wrote well
when they were very young and to impress each other,
and it certainly travels, It's traveled all this way.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
It's funny though, you say it'll si oppress each other
because now fifty years later, I could see when you're,
you know, brand new in a band trying to impress
each other, and now fifty years later, you guys probably
know each other as well anybody. So is there that
moment of like trying to impress each other or is
it just like, all right, cool, we did it and
(28:08):
we did it pretty damn great.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
I don't know the answer to that. You know, I'm
very pleased, you know, I think I think as songwriters
we're always trying to impress each other. That's that's the
bottom line, I hope.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Well, obvious questions because you and you know, Glenn have
been considered two of the greatest songwriters have written. What
songwriters impressed ill. I always ask this some great songwriters,
and I'm so curious if there was one song you
wish you could have written, what would it be? And why?
Speaker 4 (28:53):
The Circle Game by Jonny and Mitchfield. I think it's
the most complete song there ever has.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Been interesting, all right? And for you, what do you
want people to take from tricks is when they hear it?
What do you take from it? When do you hear now?
What was a vision fifty years ago that is now
complete work?
Speaker 3 (29:13):
What did you say?
Speaker 1 (29:15):
I said, what do you take from when you hear it?
That fifty years ago was a concept and now it's
a complete work. And I know from talking with Glenn
he credited Owen quite a bit with the production as
well as, you know, sort of bringing it to life.
So what do you take from the completed vision?
Speaker 3 (29:38):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
I don't know really what to say. It's it just
stands up after all these years, and I'm very grateful
that it does it.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
It's a stepping stone. As I said, very cool.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Is there anything that you want to add? And did
not ask you about?
Speaker 4 (29:57):
No, I think you've covered absolutely everything. Thank you very
much for your time.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Cool, goodrag still early in la, let's try that again.
Congratulations on the record. It's a wonderful record, and I
can't wait to see it at the ball because, as
I said, that is a great package as well.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Good see you there, Steve, Thank you for your time.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Thanks a lot, that good one. Thanks Jasmine.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
I mean, you know, because by nature, artists as a
whole do not like to look back, so recording songs
they wrote fifty years ago. It's really freaking unusual. But
it's a wonderful record, and I have so many questions
on this. You know. It's interesting because I talked so
much with songwriters about songs becoming prophetic, you know, and
(30:58):
how those songs that they wrote years ago, like Jackson
Brown for example, with the song these Days, you know,
talked about ready at sixteen. Or I got to see
Jerreny Mitchell a few years ago and it was amazing
because the song on both sides now that was written
once she was twenty two, was like so brilliant at eightie.
So for you, were there songs on this record that
(31:20):
you were like, holy shit, how did we know that
fifty years ago?
Speaker 5 (31:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (31:25):
Well yeah, it's you know, going back and examining the
songs I think the thing is that I think we
always thought they were good.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
But I think the other thing about them is that
they really sound like the time that they were written.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
They asked so much a product of what our song
writing was at that time was just absorbing everything we
were listening to and instantly regurgitating back out again.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
It's like, I don't know, it's like oysters or something.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
You know.
Speaker 6 (31:59):
What I mean is that sort of process where it
just happens by osmosis. You listen to all this great music,
and what we did was to turn out versions of
music that we liked.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
But yeah, what's so interesting about it is like, for example,
a song that you'll go out in the dark, it
feels like it was written for these times because right now,
you know, we are at such almost times. So it's
amazing that was a song written for a fictional club
fifty years ago, because literally it's a song that you
(32:35):
would like give to your kids today.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
Yeah, yeah, really that really I can't explain that it
works so well now. And is.
Speaker 6 (32:49):
It sounds It sounds contemporary. Yeah, it sounds like nineteen
seventy four.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
To me.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
That's interesting because definitely becols different, you know, it's fast
thing when you look at these songs so many years later,
are the songs that you now see that have been
written over the years for you guys that feel very
much like they were born from these songs, Like you
can see the roots of these songs and other songs
(33:18):
you've written over the years.
Speaker 6 (33:22):
Well, I'm gonna, you know, can I just return to
Don't Go Out in the Dark, because honestly, that's the
only song on Tricksies that I sort of rewrote. And
here's why. Because the song it's like the vocal tunmy
recorded it. I've got a guitar here. I'm just going
(33:45):
to play it to you how it was. So it
was a little bit cliche.
Speaker 5 (34:00):
H did you up with the Chelsea? Knew it was
your father?
Speaker 7 (34:08):
Oh, I could see, well assume it's just like that's
all it is for the verse, and so we recorded
it and then the chorus that's all it was, baby.
Speaker 6 (34:35):
And really, frankly, so what I had the vocal tune
and I just thought, I'm going to put the different
courts behind the vocals, just fall around with it and
then just sound to make it.
Speaker 5 (34:56):
And then with the chorus and now you know, the
the basic structure still was there, but it just needed
I mean, I.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
Feel like on that song we had a good producer
who said, why don't you try just a few different chords,
and it really bring the song out.
Speaker 5 (35:27):
So yeah, I'm sorry, I got went down a bit
of a rabbit hole there, but.
Speaker 6 (35:33):
That's uh, you know, that's so all the other songs
we didn't have to do that too, but it was
such a principal moment to recognize, Okay, we can't be
absolute this is exactly how it was, because that's with
that song.
Speaker 5 (35:50):
The tune is the same, but the chords are different.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
That's interesting though. I like the back then that for
you guys, like you kept it largely as is, but
we're open to the end. Yeah, of like, look, obviously
it's interesting when I talk about this people all the time. Right,
you write a song when you're twenty, and of course
a few two years later it's a new song because
you had a whole way and you get antions to it,
(36:14):
you know, so you were willing to put that new
experience into it.
Speaker 5 (36:18):
Yes, yeah, yeah, totally, but you know, really, it's it's
amazing that.
Speaker 6 (36:28):
Out of the thirteen songs, that that was the only
one that really needed that needed help you do bring
The thing about all of tricks is as of course,
we had Owen Biddle working on production and I did
some of that too, but we had all that experience
to bring to the songs that we wrote.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
But we didn't change the songs.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
We did know how to arrange, and the instrumentation is
where all the experience comes in, you know, That's that's
the thing.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Well, you guys just announced the Killer Show at the
Hollywood Bowl here in La Or they announced for you.
You're playing with Adam Man and I can't remember who
the other one is, but it's also another great act
and so are you guys like you know, fifty years later.
You know, it's funny for some weird reason you sound
nothing like them, but maybe because it was also two guys.
(37:22):
I kind of always think of you a little bit
with Steely Dan, who's a band that I love as well.
And what's interesting about Steely Dan, of course, is in
the seventies they made some of the greatest music of
all time and they couldn't play live to say their lives.
And then in the thousands they became one of the
greatest touring bands in the world. So the reason I
bring that up is, are you guys excited to finally
(37:44):
get to do Tricksy's Live fifty years later?
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (37:49):
I mean, it's so exciting to do that because well,
you know, we're still We're going to start rehearsing next
week and I'm gonna work out doing it all as
one thing. We've never thought about doing that with any
record before. But if any record deserves it, I think
it's this one. It's just about you know, I'm a
(38:09):
little nervous about what people will think, but I think
we've got to We're gonna.
Speaker 5 (38:16):
At least try it out and see if it works
and take it from there.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
I think that's interesting that you say you're nervous about
what people will think, because I feel like in the
same way. You know, it's funny. I have great associations
with Ceiling We're seeing seely Dan. You guys as well,
have those very knowledgeable music fans who are open minded
and you know, probably more adventurous than you know, maybe
(38:41):
some pop backs, and not to say the pop back
is or wrong. Right now, you guys have a very
adventurous fan base by basis by what your music is.
Speaker 5 (38:51):
Yeah, that's that's yeah, it's a very fair point. Actually,
thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
So for you, and of course with Dinging as well,
to talk about these people all the time. Right, You
play a song and you know, you think it's the
greatest song in the world, and the audience is like yeah,
and then the song that barely makes the record, the
audience is like, this is the greatest fucking song of
all time. So are the songs on this album that,
(39:18):
even though it's a cold cohesive work, are the songs
on the record you're really excited to see how the
audience responds to them live?
Speaker 5 (39:26):
Sorry you said that the very last thing he said.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Yeah, I was just saying, there's songs on this record
that you're really excited to see how the audience responds
to them.
Speaker 5 (39:35):
Oh yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 6 (39:39):
We've been doing like you get the Feeling live and
we've also done Hell on Earth. You know, I'm really
interested to, for instance, to do why Don't You because
that's quite a That's a.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
Song that.
Speaker 6 (40:01):
There's not very much to it, but it's very compelling
for some reason. It's definitely I think it's an earworm
in the best possible way and very sort of influenced by.
I think that's the most sixties influenced pop plus a
little bit of sparks, and I was obsessed with tangos
(40:22):
at the time. The last tango song I wrote before
abandoning that was take Me on Yours, So you know
that was hanging around for a few years of me.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
What's funny you said is not, you know, not necessarily
much to it in terms of being kind of overly complicated.
But you know, I always think that the simplest songs
are the best. I look at a song like you know,
to me, one of the greatest songs ever written is
In My Life, and it's a song that I feel
like when everybody hears it, they're like, oh, I could
have written that, and yet the only person who wrote
(40:55):
it was John Lennon. There's just such a simple beauty
to it.
Speaker 5 (40:59):
Yeah, absolute, Yeah, it's a beautiful song.
Speaker 6 (41:02):
And you're right because it means it means the same
to people, I think, because it meant it's so personal,
but it's it's sort of universal too.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yeah, what's funny you say about being so personal? I mean,
are the songs that you've written over the years, you know,
I was asking about songs that like become favorites to
play live. Are the songs you've written over the years.
You know, it's some of your biggest hits that you're
kind of like surprised the audience responds to them in
that way. Like again, when you look at a song
I Tempted or Black Coffee in Bed or you know,
(41:36):
black Coffee in Bed is one of those ones that
reminds me of I did a book a few years
ago called Anthems We Love, and I spoke with all
these different songwriters and two of the people I spoke
to you were Graham Nash about our House and Daryl
Hall about Sarah Smile. And there were such simple personal
songs written about one person each that became monster, you know,
(41:56):
like favorite songs around the world. And Black Coffee and
has that simple feeling too where it's kind of like, wait,
why does everybody love this so much? Because they want
the feeling of it.
Speaker 5 (42:07):
Wow, that's tremendously complimentary and thank you. Yeah, I get that.
I totally get that. Sarah Smile, for instance, It's like
that song is like magic to me. What it does.
Speaker 6 (42:24):
It's just it's like the most charming, beguiling person you'll
ever meet. Is contained in that song, you know, and
what a mood, what a mood, What a mood.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
To create.
Speaker 6 (42:39):
The Graham Nash It's been one of my biggest influences,
the harmonies that that I do. Half the time, I
imagine I'm Graham Nash and what would he do?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
All right? So obvious question, what one Grad Nash song
do you wish you had written? And why?
Speaker 6 (42:57):
Uh uh? Sleep song from Songs for Beginners, Just such
a beautiful, simple song and he plays with melody over
essentially a very simple chord structure.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
What's so interesting about that, though, is I'm sure you've
heard from people over the years you have the same
effect on people. I mean, people have been such fans
of your songwriting, you know, and I'm sure it's like,
and I've talked about this a artist teal, there are
people who are like, wait, really you like my music?
I would never expect you to be a fan. So
have there been you know, unlikely people of surprise? Are
(43:42):
people you've heard from that have surprised you, or responses
you've gotten to the songs that have like really stood
out to you.
Speaker 5 (43:50):
Okay, so that's a really easy question. I met quest Love.
Speaker 6 (43:57):
And he was obsessed with a song that actually a
song that we did for Argie Bargie that was that
our manager insisted wasn't on it called what the Butler
Saw and Questlove was obsessed with was that was obsessed
with that song when he was a kid, and he said,
you know, I've never heard a song like that.
Speaker 5 (44:18):
And I was so pleased that he liked it because
I love that song.
Speaker 6 (44:23):
And and it never got not many people heard it
because it was pushed off off of Argie Bargie.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
See I love that though too, that he loved it
when he was a kid, because right, you look at
it again, this goes back to the simplicity of songs
and like, for example, you know a song like Yellow
Mister Blue Sky, I Love Yellow, I Love jeff Lynn.
That's a song that's so brilliant and you hear it
when you're six years old and you're like, this is
(45:06):
the most fun song. So for you you tie this
back into the new record. Is it something that you
kind of can learn to appreciate the simplicity more. And
not to say these songs are simple, but you know
when you're first starting out, of course you don't have
all the same tricks of the trade that you do
when you're fifteen years into you know, like a Hall
(45:30):
of Fame career.
Speaker 5 (45:31):
Yeah, yeah, you know. I think what you're saying is right.
But my relationship with sommarizing it's weird because.
Speaker 6 (45:49):
I like to when I'm working on music, I obsess
with things and not any too yes, but my listening
habits change and I begin to analyze what people are doing.
Speaker 5 (46:08):
And so, and when I write, I stop.
Speaker 6 (46:11):
I stopped writing for a while, and then I start
writing when there's a time for me to do it.
And whenever I start writing, it is like being unfit.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
You know.
Speaker 5 (46:20):
It's hard. It's really hard. It's not like you just
for me. I don't just fall back into it.
Speaker 6 (46:26):
And for the period writing for the new album that
we did alongside Trixies, I spent two months working on
one song and it ended up being great. But two
months on a song it's like being tortured, you know,
like really, like seriously. I couldn't get past it. I
(46:48):
didn't feel like doing things. I just wanted to get
this song done. Towards the end of the process, I
wrote two songs in ten minutes. The absolutely amazing. And
that's how different My mindset was from the beginning of
the project to the end that I'd accessed a different
(47:09):
way of thinking. But in that different way of thinking,
I can't enjoy music. I just it's like an illness.
I analyze it, and so the only way I could
stop doing that and enjoy music is to not write
and to just I drift back down to hearing something
and being able to enjoy it without going, oh, I
see what's happening here?
Speaker 5 (47:30):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (47:31):
It's weird, No, exactly what you mean. I love that
because I'm friends with Neil Diamond. Weirdly, I've known him
for many years, done winer notes with him. And the
reason I was smiling when you were telling me that story,
and I think he's one of the greatest songwriters ever,
as are you. And he was telling me a song
like I am I've said he said that song was
that one of us was going to die writing that song,
(47:53):
either the song was going to kill me or I
was going to get the song. But then he said,
a song like Sweet Caroline came from God. So most writers,
I think, have that experience where it's just like some
songs just fall out, like you know, and then other songs,
you're like, what the fuck?
Speaker 5 (48:13):
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely, that's it.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
You know, over the years, are the songs that have
like just you know, I've talked to so many writers
about this, the idea of writing being a formal channeling
and the antenna up in the song coming in. Are
the songs for you that are just like slid out
so easily. You're like, where did that come from?
Speaker 5 (48:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (48:38):
Well, you know, so like to like two songs that
I've written, I'm very proud of Tempted Sounds Natural. Yeah,
that took me a week. That really took me a
week of solid chord by chord is really slow and
(49:03):
not and even then I didn't know how it would go.
We've recorded it once a terrible version before we recorded
it again and got the right version, so you know,
the record is also part of it. And you're right,
some Fantastic Place, which is one of my favorite songs
that we've written. Literally, I saw the lyric. I knew
it was about Maxine, who I'd known since I was fourteen.
Speaker 5 (49:27):
She died.
Speaker 6 (49:30):
Terribly early, and I sat down, I saw the lyric,
and I sat down and played the song it. I
didn't even make it up. It just came out and
it was right, and that was it. I can't explain that.
Speaker 5 (49:45):
It just happened.
Speaker 6 (49:46):
And it's a complicated song, but it's a beautiful song.
I'm really proud of it, and it feels like it's
not me.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
I've heard that from so many writers, so interesting over
the years, so many I mean, I've heard from people
dream songs, you know.
Speaker 5 (50:02):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (50:05):
Actually the first time I wrote, I dreamt and I
can still remember it, and it's quite like the lyrics
are the lyrics of an eleven year old, but the
two I can I can still play it in my
head out. It's a full, full specter production. It's a
big thing. It's got lots of chords, and I woke
(50:27):
up taught myself how to play the chorus. It's it's
I've never used it. I should use it actually, but yeah, yeah,
writing is it's all those things you can you can
attune yourself to, catching things, you can make yourself aware.
(50:48):
And then the other bit of it, the five percent,
the magic that just fucking hams.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
I mean. But you know, it's funny you say you
dream the first one, because that's talk with many people
about this and it's kind of like it's weird to like,
you know, because everybody has that wonder when you're a kid,
and what it turns out is like it's almost interesting,
like artists have been able to keep that channel open
or other people just shut it down because they don't.
Speaker 5 (51:18):
Use it, right, right, Yeah, I mean that's that's really interesting,
I think.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, it's just an
interesting because I talked to so many songwriters. But let's
you know, I know, we only have a couple of
minutes left, let's wrap up on this album. And you
know what's fascinating about this to me, Like it's funny.
I was talking not long ago with the Black Crows
and talking about the nineties versus today. Yeah, you know,
(51:46):
and this is fascinating to me because you know, the
seventies were to so many people a tumultuous time because
you're coming out of you know, Vietnam and everything like that,
and this was like, right now, I believe in seventy four.
And yet now, you know, it's funny now when you
look at it, the seventies seem like, you know, so
(52:10):
innocent compared to how fucked up the world is today.
So it's very interesting to put on an album from
then today because I mean, for you talk about the
difference in times and you know, like I mentioned, to
go Out in the Dark was a song that felt
like you could be written today. Yeah, the whole this album,
as you say, it does take you to seventy four,
(52:32):
So talk about you know, sort of what you think
of then and you think of now, because again, you know,
as the vice of this thing seem then, at least
especially in America where I am, it's like nothing.
Speaker 5 (52:47):
Which is for a writer in a way, a very
nice way to be.
Speaker 6 (52:55):
And I think I have my whole life ahead of
me and I never thought of it like that at
the time, but that is what it was, and that's
also a great place to be and I'm not there
anymore and somewhere are very different and.
Speaker 5 (53:14):
Writing, if it's you know, at its best, can reflect that,
I think.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Absolutely, So wrapping up on that, that's interesting. That goes
back to what I was asking about the songs being
prophetic and even though these were fictional songs about you know,
a fictional place. You know. I was talking about this
some of the other day. My favorite songwriter of all
time is Tom Waves. And you know, you give write
a song like Chocolate Jesus and while it's a total,
(53:46):
you know, fictional song. You look at a song like
Georgia Lee, for example, and it's fictional about a girl.
You know, but it doesn't matter if there's always a
piece of him in there. And I'm sure when you
look at these songs there are pieces of you in
there that maybe because they were written when you were
so young, you didn't even know that they were part
of you.
Speaker 5 (54:07):
Yeah, that is really true. That is really true. It's
the only.
Speaker 6 (54:13):
You know, it's the only way back for me to
get to try and understand who I was at that time.
And Chris too, Chris, you know, Chris was a sophisticated
guy compared to me. It had experiences that I'd never had,
and he made those available for me, and that was
(54:37):
a blessing.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
Doub What were you then?
Speaker 5 (54:42):
What was I then?
Speaker 1 (54:44):
I mean? No? Where were you then? Yeah? I mean
you say, it's the only way to get back to
who you were. It is a fascinating thing to look
at songs you wrote fifty years ago. Let's say again,
you know, because like you're not even sure who you were.
Speaker 5 (54:55):
That Yeah, Okay, so, I mean, the only thing I
know is that I am. My life is entirely the
product of.
Speaker 6 (55:10):
Of meeting Chris and being able to do what I
do because it's such a rock and roll Please say this,
but if I hadn't done this, I wouldn't have done
anything else. I know that I was destined for a
life that wasn't perhaps great, let's put it that way.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
So now you're getting to revisit this and do this
stuff now, and do this upcom when you were in America.
I mean, today's one of those things that we got
to wrap up in a second. So we'll make this
last question. But you appreciate it so much more because
I was looking at it this way. Right when you're
in your twenties, at least for me, I was an idiot.
You know, You're doing all these amazing things and you're
(55:53):
just like, oh, this is going to happen every night.
And then only when you get older you realize, oh shit,
being at a BMI event little Richard, Chuck Berry and
Bo Diddley, it's the craziest fucking thing of all time,
you know. But when you're twenty seven, you're like, oh,
it's gonna be every night, and then you get older
and you're like, holy shit, did that really happen? So
are you able to appreciate things now so much more?
Speaker 7 (56:14):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (56:15):
Yeah, with exactly that perspective. You know, that's part of the.
Speaker 6 (56:21):
Charm of being young, isn't it that you don't have
any real concept of being anything other than alive forever?
Speaker 5 (56:29):
You know that what I'm twenty now, I've got tons
of time. You know, Well, that's just that.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
But you often think that all these amazing things are
just commonplace, and then you realize, like, you know, oh,
writing a song they tempted. No, that's not going to
happen every day.
Speaker 6 (56:46):
No, No, yeah, I mean it's not. It's that was
a game change of a song. I mean, haven't I
don't know how many of those who have written, but
it's definitely mean not very many of them.
Speaker 1 (57:05):
You've written quite a few. But I will tell you,
as someone who's talked to everybody, this always makes me laugh.
When I was doing the anthems Wook, I talked with
Robbie Greeger about light my Fire, and I talked with
Steve Windward about give me some Love and and they
both said the exact same thing. If we knew how
we wrote them. We would write those songs a million
more times. Thank you nowadays cool? Is there anything you
(57:30):
want to add that I did not ask you about?
Speaker 5 (57:34):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (57:35):
Is there anything that you want to add I didn't
ask you about before we wrap up?
Speaker 5 (57:39):
No, I think you've You've been really great. I'm very grateful.
Speaker 6 (57:44):
It's been really nice to talk to you and really
stimulating and interesting, and I thank you for that.
Hey to Steve.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Balton, and welcome back to in service of this week
is a very special episode. I know I say that
a lot, but we do get to talk to really
frequent cool people like Chris Difford and Glenn Tilbrook of
the iconic British fan Squeeze. Maybe you're thinking who, but
you know Black Coffee and bed tempted pulling muscles from Michelle,
(00:31):
I would argue that different and Tilbrook are probably the
most respected. We're the songwriting duo after McCartney and Lennon
and after Richard and Jagger. People love Squeeze as a
really fun conversation I had with them about a fascinating project.
Fifteen years after they wrote their first album, Tricksies, they've
(00:54):
gone back and recorded it, and they wrote a concept
album about a fictional club back in nineteen seventy four
and never recorded it, and it is truly fascinating to
see how this album that they wrote more than a
half a century ago holds up and feels relevant today.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Very cool, interesting conversation, and of course we talk a
ton about songwriting, so hope you find this one as
interesting as I did. Because man, and of course he's
we're going to separate interviews because they both wanted a
chance to express themselves. So you get an hour of
two of the greatest first songwriters of the last forty
(01:34):
to fifty years thanks to Wow. That is a very
very very interesting, uh juxtaposition of great visiting the album
(01:58):
from fifty two years ago. Well at the same time
having two new grandchildren. Talk about a you know, contrast
of generations.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Well, it really is.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
And you know, when I look back at all of
those years that have passed, it's an extraordinary journey. Very
grateful for that journey, of course. But you know, I
was I was reading the other day or an interview
actually with the violence violinist John Sherper, who has the
(02:35):
Cronus Quartet, and he said that for he's he's been
you know, he's been giving himself to his his performances
and to his people that come and see the quartet
(02:55):
for all of his life. But now he's seventy, it's
time for him to give care as a grandfather and
discover new music and hobbies. So maybe that's maybe that's
something to bear in mind.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I mean, you know, I know, well, Ellen, John talked
about retiring a few years ago and only does you know,
occasional shows now to be a father, you know, I mean,
is it something that as you you know, is that
something that you think about for yourself or it's funny.
I mean, lenn and I had a wonderful conversation a
week ago, and you know, we talked about revisiting Galvium
(03:34):
from so long ago. But it wasn't something that brought
up in terms of like aging. It was more like interesting,
you know, to look at it from the respective of
how your own life has changed so much over that time.
But certainly, you know, there wasn't really talk of slowing down.
And I know you guys are doing a phenomenal tour
this year. You know, you're touring with some great bands.
(03:57):
So are you still enjoying it as much as you
ever did?
Speaker 4 (04:02):
I think it's a different kind of experience. You know,
when you're young and you don't have any fear and
you're in the back of a van touring around, you
kind of experience it from that angle. But when you're older,
like I'm seventy two this year, I'm taking it a
little bit slower because I have to and I have
to respect that. You know, my time, my time here
(04:28):
is kind of limited in a way because you know,
my youth, if you like, has been and it isn't here.
And now I'm in an age where I don't know.
You know, when you're young, you never think you're going
to reach thirty, and then when you're thirty, you never
reached you think you're going to reach forty, and then
(04:49):
when you're seventy two, you don't know if you're going
to reach eighty or even seventy three. So you're kind
of aware of time a little more than you used
to be.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
And yet there is like it's interesting because everybody, I
think approaches it so differently. And it's funny because you know,
I'm a huge Springsteen fan, my favorite artist. And it
was funny when he did a Q and A talking
about the film that came out last year, the Bio Pick.
Someone asked him, well, why did you do the bio
Pick now, you know, after having been so private his
(05:20):
whole life, And his response was, because I'm old and
I don't give a fuck anymore.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
I love Bruce Springsteen.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I went to see his one man show in New
York and it was a huge inspiration for me. You know,
the guy came out and told the story, he played
the songs. I mean, what's not to like? I love him.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, it's interesting now how his approach to aging seems
different than yours. I mean it's funny because there does
seem to be for some people a little bit fearlessness
as they get older too, because you know, you've already
accomplished so much and as you say, you've kind of
gone beyond where you ever expected.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
Yeah, that's true. And you know, I think when you're
it's different for someone like you know, huge like Bruce
Springsteen or Billy Joel. You know, these people have incredible
wealth of let alone that their time on the planet.
(06:23):
You know, we're a bit further down the fruit tree.
You know, there's not a lot of fruit down here
at the bottom, but what there is it tastes good.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Interesting analogy, all right, So what's the fruit down at
the bottom, Then that tastes good.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Well.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
The new album and you know, having people Owen Biddle
produce it for you, you know, that's the fruit that I
kind of feel very grateful for.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
And again when you guys tour this year, I mean
what's interesting is there's always been an audience and you know,
like you're in La. I'm based in LA. I know
you're playing the Hollywood Ball and I believe you're playing
with Human League and Alison Moya. I fucking love Alison
by by the way. So I mean, but that's like
you have great artists supporting you and you're playing in
(07:14):
you know, a venue the Beatles in the Door have
played in.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Well, yeah, I mean we've played it before, so you know,
I don't remember it, but I'm really looking forward to
playing it, of course.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
And you know, I think.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
It's time that we played places like that, you know,
I think it's it's it's it's about time that we
came on to a bigger stage and performed trickses and
whatever else we're going to do.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah, that's an interesting thing. We haven't even talked yet
about tricks and it's funny for you. I love the record,
by the way, And it was interesting too because I
was talking about with Glenn there are songs on that
record that feel like they could have been written today.
So were you surprised by how well the record holds up?
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Yeah, of course I am, and I'm very grateful for it.
I think it sounds amazing and everybody that was involved
in the record has done a great job, all the musicians.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
You know. I think.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
It's exactly how I dreamt it might be.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Well, wait, it's funny when you say it's exactly how
you drept it might be. Is it how you draft
it might be when you started revisiting it, or is
it how you draft it would be in nineteen seventy
four when you started it?
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Oh, when we started really recording it last year. Really
it's a journey that you know, in nineteen seventy four,
I had no idea what it would sound like, and
I'm extremely pleased that it sounds as good as it does.
But let's be because it's been in very good hands,
(09:03):
you know. I mean, it's just.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
It's it's a real turning.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
It's a real sort of step stepping stone from the
past into what might or might not be the future.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
It's interesting, I mean, for you wore these songs in particular,
that you were surprised that they kind of felt, I guess,
for lack of a better word, prophetic.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
I had no expectations of any of the songs and
what they would end up being like. But when you know,
I sat in the room when they were being recorded,
with the band and every beat and every time we
got to a new song, I was thrilled and it
was it just felt like something fresh and new, even
(09:57):
though it was fifty years old.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So for you, I mean, you know, I guess you
know GAVI's question. I always hate to ask the obvious question.
Why at this point, you know, when you guys started
re recording it, did it feel like this was the
right time.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
It just did, and you know it just you know,
we could put another album out full of songs, but
just be another album full of songs. You know, everybody
does that. Nobody does this. This is the first time
I know of a band that have gone back to
the beginning and created something as as ambitious as this.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
It is interesting, I agree with you. And what's funny
because you know, as someone who talks to so many bands,
the reason I find that, you know most bands in general,
it's like, it's very interesting during COVID because all these
bands I talked to were, you know, looking at either
greatest hits or documentaries or things like that, and so
(11:05):
many bands I talked to were like, well, we never
have time to look back. This is the first time
we've had the opportunity to do something unusual for bands
to look back, So I think that's part of the
reason why. But for you guys, again, it doesn't really
feel like looking back. If you didn't know the backstory
of this record, it'd be curious. But I bet most
(11:27):
people would have no idea that this record was written
fifty years ago.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
Very good point. I think there's been enough press and
people talking about it that people will know it was written. Then,
you know, when we come out on stage and perform it,
I guess people are going to say, well, that's you know,
where did that come from? And would explain it obviously,
and it sounds sounds head and shoulders above some of
(11:55):
the other stuff.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah, so wait, are you considering doing it all the
way through in its entirety live?
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Yeah, like forty three minutes and you know we can
do that and then straight into pulling muscles for Michelle
and no one will know the difference.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
You know. That's the other thing that's interesting about it is, well, okay,
first of all, I've talked about this with so many people,
and when you do songs, you know, when you do
new material, it kind of can put older songs in context.
So on this upcoming tour. Are there songs that you're
really looking forward to revasing and you know, first of all,
(12:40):
looking forward to revisiting in context of this other material
that was written fifty years ago but you've never played
on stage before.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Well, that's all to be discovered.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
I don't really know what it's going to be like
to you know, I think if I go and see
a band and they perform forty three minutes of a
record I've never heard before, I'm going to have to
really think about it. But you know, I remember going
to see Elton John perform Captain Fantastic and that was,
you know, a whole album that he played from beginning
(13:13):
to end, and you know what wasn't so like? It
was such a brilliant songiant brilliant album.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Well the other thing is too, as you mentioned earlier,
what a journey and so for you, are there songs
that now you hear in a different way because again,
these songs are fifty years old, But there are also
songs you've had over the years that have been hits
that are familiar with audiences, but nevertheless they might change
your meaning because you're a different person. You've now had
(13:43):
a whole life a whole experience that is so different
than you know, when you originally wrote Black Coffee and
back or tempted or pulling muscles from the shelf. You're
a whole different person.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Yeah, I kind of. I don't know what I feel
about it. Really.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I think I just take it as it comes. And
I am a different person from a nineteen year old
that wrote it. Of course I am. I'm seventy two.
But you know, I think I can look at it
now as almost a theater piece, and you know, we'll
go on stage, we perform it, it will sound good,
(14:25):
and I'm hoping that the audience will be able to
embrace the risk that we are taking.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
For you, what's the risk?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
People don't like it?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
But yet you know that people like this because at
least when it comes to the older heads, you know,
there is that like the proven.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
I mean, I'm being silly, really, but in fact, in
many ways, I'm not really responding to how people feel
about it. If you feel confident, than the audience will
feel confident. There's nothing to fear. There really isn't, you know,
even if you get it wrong, there's nothing to fear.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
It's not.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
You know, it's it can't be a fearful project, otherwise
it will never work.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
What I found is someone who's been in the audience
so many times. It's less about I mean, from the
audience perspective, it feels like it's more just the the
artist is having fun, like that's the most important thing.
I want their names, but I remember seeing one band
on a reunion who clearly and they publicly said they
hated each other and it was the most miserable show.
(15:40):
But when you're watching a band, even if it's not
the greatest band, and they're having a good time, you know,
that's just infectious.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
Well it is, of course it is, and we all
want to see bands like that, you know. You know,
just recently watching Radiohead get back on stage. You know,
the performance was extraordinary and it's lovely to see a
young band that they once were still being able to
go on stage and create something very special.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
For you guys, I mean, you know, when you have
like this material that sat with you for so many
years that you've always wanted to bring the stage, you know,
do you feel like, again you haven't performed tricks as yet,
but do you feel like it'll have that same kind
of feeling that you're talking about for Radiohead, because I mean,
(16:32):
you know, just going up there and having new material
to do it makes it so.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Fun Personally, I don't want to overthink it. I just
just want to do it. And you know, I think
I think people will enjoy it. And it's a theater
piece in many ways, and I think that was really important.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Well, it's funny it's a theater piece. I was just
going to ask that, is it is a whole concept.
Is it something you would ever want to see made
into like a theatrical piece or something else?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Like I really do.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
A passion of mine without a doubt to see it,
to hear it on stage as a play, that would
just make that would be like I could retire just
seeing that.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
All right. So you mentioned seeing springsing on Broadway. You know,
obviously go all the way back to the who wore
one of the greatest fans of all time, you know,
and did Tommy and Quadraphini on stage, and then you
had go all the way up to Green Day, who
had an American idiot comes to stage. Have there been any
stage adaptions you've seen that would inspire the idea of
(17:50):
this in terms of just not you know, obviously, you
guys are doing your own thing and it's your own plane,
your own thing that you wrote, but just that you
saw like that really blew you away.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Well, not in the same way that.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
This is going to be performed, I don't think, you know,
I don't really see a lot of live music at all,
and what I do see is very individual and probably
not like that at all. But when I watch somebody
(18:32):
like David Byrne who can recreate his history in a
new and different way, I think that's amazing. I don't
think I don't think I could do that, but I
think it's amazing that he's taken the time to work
something out so it's not just going on stage and
playing the songs.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
You know, I'm not.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Advocating it for Squeeze, because I don't I think it
would look a little bit. But I think the fact
that somebody like him, or somebody like Bruce Springsteen doing
the storytelling, it's wonderful, you know, wonderful to see that
kind of stuff, and you know our audiences can appreciate that,
(19:17):
I believe.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Well, yeah, I mean, I imagine it's very inspiring as well.
And even when you go back. I'm sure there are
artists that you've looked to over the years that you've
enjoyed for you know, the way they've been able to
evolve and adapt. And you know, again you look at
people like Bowie of course, or Johnny Mitchell or so
many of those people who were able to become completely
new artists fifty years of their career well.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
Exactly, and you know that's that's an inspiration in itself.
You know, Bowie was very very good at doing that,
and Johnny Mitchell, you know to a degree, James Taylor,
and Paul Simon who's out on the road which is
extraordinary in my book.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Agree, in his new album, it's just like exceptional.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah, it is interesting. I mean there, you know, so
when you look at it for you guys, I mean
it's funny because you talk about slowing down, but at
the same time, you know, like we talked about, you
have this album that's wonderful, the tour. I mean, is
there a part of you when you look at all
the artists who've been able to do it, that feels
maybe as invigorated in a different way. I mean, obviously
(20:30):
you have to slow down because you can't probably two
or three hundred days a year anymore the way that
you still but I mean creatively, do you still feel
as invigorated?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yeah, I creative.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
I write most days if I can. I'm not trapped
by that. I enjoy writing. That's my hobby, and songwriting
that I do with other people and on my own.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
It's really important, you know.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
It's kind of like a muscle that I have to
keep using because I don't know where it's going to
take me. So you know, from one story to the next,
it's all there somewhere outside and waiting to come in.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
It's interesting he's saying that you don't know where it's
going to take you. Because I've talked about this with
I mean so many songwriters, and I got the chance
a couple of years ago to talk with Mike Stoller,
you know, who's obviously iconic, legendary, one of the greatest
songwriters of all time, half of Lee Bird Stoller. He
wrote stand By Me, which might be the greatest song ever.
(21:51):
And it was funny because he said, we were talking
about songwriting and he's like, I have no idea where
it comes from. Nobody does, you know? And I found
that so inspiring that he said that at ninety something
years old. So is there still that mystery for you
that also keeps it invigorating because, like you said, or
like he says, like everybody says, it's going to come
(22:11):
from somewhere, but no idea where. The way that people
have described to me is you have the antenna up
and the messages has come in.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
I mean you sit and quite often I'm sitting at
home and I'm looking out the window and my wife
will say to me, what are you doing? And I say,
I'm writing a song and she says, well, it doesn't
look like it.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Like it.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Sometimes you have to look out the window for hours
on end for the song to arrive, and sometimes it
just sort of falls. It falls in front of you.
And all the best kind of songs, I don't know
where they come from. I don't overthink it. I think
people that overthink songs are wasting their time. The energy
(22:57):
of spontaneity is really it can't be beaten. It's the
most beautiful thing that's that's nature in itself.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
So there have been those songs that have come to you.
Then you know, and again, I've talked to so many
artis about this like a song will come instantly, you know,
and they have no idea why or where. Again, the
great example I always use is from my favorite example,
someone telling me Jimmy Cliff, who you know we lost
last year, was such an icon, and he told me
(23:29):
he wrote The Herder. They come in ten minutes on
the way to the studio in New York. You know,
have you had those songs where you're just like, it
comes in like lightning, and you're just like, where the
hell did that come from? It's a great song, but
I don't know where it hit from.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Yep, all the time, all the time, you know, Whenever
I sit down and something comes like that in the
next ten minutes, that's great. If it takes longer than
ten minutes, then I've lost it.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Interesting, are there ones I'm drew then over the years
where now you can look back and say, Okay, at
the time, I didn't know where that came from, but
now I get it.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
I think maybe in retirement I might be able to
look at each song individually instead.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Oh, that was what That's what that was about.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
You know, Eventually, when time slows down and you get
to get to be able to focus on what you've
done in your career. But for the time being, I can't.
I can't even focus on that stuff. It's kind of
just out that.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
You know, it's funny because you talk about springs down Broadway.
Obviously you guys have enough material. Would you ever do
something like that because I'm actually it will be interesting
as well because it does kind of put the songs
in context for you guys as well.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
When I do my solo tour on my own, then
I took inspiration from him, so I have an iPad
on stage loop stories around each song, so it's it's
about the whole journey from the beginning of the show
to the end of the show, and for it to
have a beginning and middle and an end that kind
(25:14):
of sows everything together. And I think that's for me
that's really important. I don't think I could do that
with anybody else. That would just have to be me.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
So it's funny when you did that, though doesn't put
stuff in context. And again taking it back to Trixs
because we're not have to wrap up in a minute.
But you know, again, looking at this album that was
fifty years ago, are you able to now look at
the songs much differently than you did then and say, okay,
now I kind of see what inspired this or you
(25:46):
know where this particular song came from, or you know, again,
it's a very ambitious project for you know that age,
and like I look at the example of I got
to see Jodi Mitchell a few years ago at the
Gorge and both sides now, you know, I mean, was
a brilliant song what you wrote it when she was
twenty two. When she's eighty years old and it's nearly died,
(26:06):
it's a completely different song.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
Yeah. I don't know what to say to that, really,
because the you know, the when I look back at
our catalog of songs, I'm so proud of all of them,
and they all stand in their own ground in a
(26:32):
very special way. And yes, they are different from what
they you know, sat what they were when they were conceived,
if you like, and recorded originally. However, you know, when
I do Squeeze songs in my own show, I do
(26:54):
them like me. I don't do them like Squeeze because
I can't and also it would be unfair to the audience.
So you know, there's a story to be told, and
it keeps on coming, which is good news.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yeah, So for you, what is that story today when
you look at that story in context? What is the
story that you're telling today?
Speaker 4 (27:25):
So it depends what you're saying, really, because when I'm
telling a story today, I'm looking at I'm looking at
tricks as this being something that two people wrote well
when they were very young and to impress each other,
and it certainly travels, It's traveled all this way.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
It's funny though, you say it'll si oppress each other
because now fifty years later, I could see when you're,
you know, brand new in a band trying to impress
each other, and now fifty years later, you guys probably
know each other as well anybody. So is there that
moment of like trying to impress each other or is
it just like, all right, cool, we did it and
(28:08):
we did it pretty damn great.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
I don't know the answer to that. You know, I'm
very pleased, you know, I think I think as songwriters
we're always trying to impress each other. That's that's the
bottom line, I hope.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Well, obvious questions because you and you know, Glenn have
been considered two of the greatest songwriters have written. What
songwriters impressed ill. I always ask this some great songwriters,
and I'm so curious if there was one song you
wish you could have written, what would it be? And why?
Speaker 4 (28:53):
The Circle Game by Jonny and Mitchfield. I think it's
the most complete song there ever has.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Been interesting, all right? And for you, what do you
want people to take from tricks is when they hear it?
What do you take from it? When do you hear now?
What was a vision fifty years ago that is now
complete work?
Speaker 3 (29:13):
What did you say?
Speaker 1 (29:15):
I said, what do you take from when you hear it?
That fifty years ago was a concept and now it's
a complete work. And I know from talking with Glenn
he credited Owen quite a bit with the production as
well as, you know, sort of bringing it to life.
So what do you take from the completed vision?
Speaker 3 (29:38):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
I don't know really what to say. It's it just
stands up after all these years, and I'm very grateful
that it does it.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
It's a stepping stone. As I said, very cool.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Is there anything that you want to add? And did
not ask you about?
Speaker 4 (29:57):
No, I think you've covered absolutely everything. Thank you very
much for your time.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Cool, goodrag still early in la, let's try that again.
Congratulations on the record. It's a wonderful record, and I
can't wait to see it at the ball because, as
I said, that is a great package as well.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Good see you there, Steve, Thank you for your time.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Thanks a lot, that good one. Thanks Jasmine.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
I mean, you know, because by nature, artists as a
whole do not like to look back, so recording songs
they wrote fifty years ago. It's really freaking unusual. But
it's a wonderful record, and I have so many questions
on this. You know. It's interesting because I talked so
much with songwriters about songs becoming prophetic, you know, and
(30:58):
how those songs that they wrote years ago, like Jackson
Brown for example, with the song these Days, you know,
talked about ready at sixteen. Or I got to see
Jerreny Mitchell a few years ago and it was amazing
because the song on both sides now that was written
once she was twenty two, was like so brilliant at eightie.
So for you, were there songs on this record that
(31:20):
you were like, holy shit, how did we know that
fifty years ago?
Speaker 5 (31:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (31:25):
Well yeah, it's you know, going back and examining the
songs I think the thing is that I think we
always thought they were good.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
But I think the other thing about them is that
they really sound like the time that they were written.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
They asked so much a product of what our song
writing was at that time was just absorbing everything we
were listening to and instantly regurgitating back out again.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
It's like, I don't know, it's like oysters or something.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
You know.
Speaker 6 (31:59):
What I mean is that sort of process where it
just happens by osmosis. You listen to all this great music,
and what we did was to turn out versions of
music that we liked.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
But yeah, what's so interesting about it is like, for example,
a song that you'll go out in the dark, it
feels like it was written for these times because right now,
you know, we are at such almost times. So it's
amazing that was a song written for a fictional club
fifty years ago, because literally it's a song that you
(32:35):
would like give to your kids today.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
Yeah, yeah, really that really I can't explain that it
works so well now. And is.
Speaker 6 (32:49):
It sounds It sounds contemporary. Yeah, it sounds like nineteen
seventy four.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
To me.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
That's interesting because definitely becols different, you know, it's fast
thing when you look at these songs so many years later,
are the songs that you now see that have been
written over the years for you guys that feel very
much like they were born from these songs, Like you
can see the roots of these songs and other songs
(33:18):
you've written over the years.
Speaker 6 (33:22):
Well, I'm gonna, you know, can I just return to
Don't Go Out in the Dark, because honestly, that's the
only song on Tricksies that I sort of rewrote. And
here's why. Because the song it's like the vocal tunmy
recorded it. I've got a guitar here. I'm just going
(33:45):
to play it to you how it was. So it
was a little bit cliche.
Speaker 5 (34:00):
H did you up with the Chelsea? Knew it was
your father?
Speaker 7 (34:08):
Oh, I could see, well assume it's just like that's
all it is for the verse, and so we recorded
it and then the chorus that's all it was, baby.
Speaker 6 (34:35):
And really, frankly, so what I had the vocal tune
and I just thought, I'm going to put the different
courts behind the vocals, just fall around with it and
then just sound to make it.
Speaker 5 (34:56):
And then with the chorus and now you know, the
the basic structure still was there, but it just needed
I mean, I.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
Feel like on that song we had a good producer
who said, why don't you try just a few different chords,
and it really bring the song out.
Speaker 5 (35:27):
So yeah, I'm sorry, I got went down a bit
of a rabbit hole there, but.
Speaker 6 (35:33):
That's uh, you know, that's so all the other songs
we didn't have to do that too, but it was
such a principal moment to recognize, Okay, we can't be
absolute this is exactly how it was, because that's with
that song.
Speaker 5 (35:50):
The tune is the same, but the chords are different.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
That's interesting though. I like the back then that for
you guys, like you kept it largely as is, but
we're open to the end. Yeah, of like, look, obviously
it's interesting when I talk about this people all the time. Right,
you write a song when you're twenty, and of course
a few two years later it's a new song because
you had a whole way and you get antions to it,
(36:14):
you know, so you were willing to put that new
experience into it.
Speaker 5 (36:18):
Yes, yeah, yeah, totally, but you know, really, it's it's
amazing that.
Speaker 6 (36:28):
Out of the thirteen songs, that that was the only
one that really needed that needed help you do bring
The thing about all of tricks is as of course,
we had Owen Biddle working on production and I did
some of that too, but we had all that experience
to bring to the songs that we wrote.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
But we didn't change the songs.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
We did know how to arrange, and the instrumentation is
where all the experience comes in, you know, That's that's
the thing.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Well, you guys just announced the Killer Show at the
Hollywood Bowl here in La Or they announced for you.
You're playing with Adam Man and I can't remember who
the other one is, but it's also another great act
and so are you guys like you know, fifty years later.
You know, it's funny for some weird reason you sound
nothing like them, but maybe because it was also two guys.
(37:22):
I kind of always think of you a little bit
with Steely Dan, who's a band that I love as well.
And what's interesting about Steely Dan, of course, is in
the seventies they made some of the greatest music of
all time and they couldn't play live to say their lives.
And then in the thousands they became one of the
greatest touring bands in the world. So the reason I
bring that up is, are you guys excited to finally
(37:44):
get to do Tricksy's Live fifty years later?
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (37:49):
I mean, it's so exciting to do that because well,
you know, we're still We're going to start rehearsing next
week and I'm gonna work out doing it all as
one thing. We've never thought about doing that with any
record before. But if any record deserves it, I think
it's this one. It's just about you know, I'm a
(38:09):
little nervous about what people will think, but I think
we've got to We're gonna.
Speaker 5 (38:16):
At least try it out and see if it works
and take it from there.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
I think that's interesting that you say you're nervous about
what people will think, because I feel like in the
same way. You know, it's funny. I have great associations
with Ceiling We're seeing seely Dan. You guys as well,
have those very knowledgeable music fans who are open minded
and you know, probably more adventurous than you know, maybe
(38:41):
some pop backs, and not to say the pop back
is or wrong. Right now, you guys have a very
adventurous fan base by basis by what your music is.
Speaker 5 (38:51):
Yeah, that's that's yeah, it's a very fair point. Actually,
thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
So for you, and of course with Dinging as well,
to talk about these people all the time. Right, You
play a song and you know, you think it's the
greatest song in the world, and the audience is like yeah,
and then the song that barely makes the record, the
audience is like, this is the greatest fucking song of
all time. So are the songs on this album that,
(39:18):
even though it's a cold cohesive work, are the songs
on the record you're really excited to see how the
audience responds to them live?
Speaker 5 (39:26):
Sorry you said that the very last thing he said.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Yeah, I was just saying, there's songs on this record
that you're really excited to see how the audience responds
to them.
Speaker 5 (39:35):
Oh yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 6 (39:39):
We've been doing like you get the Feeling live and
we've also done Hell on Earth. You know, I'm really
interested to, for instance, to do why Don't You because
that's quite a That's a.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
Song that.
Speaker 6 (40:01):
There's not very much to it, but it's very compelling
for some reason. It's definitely I think it's an earworm
in the best possible way and very sort of influenced by.
I think that's the most sixties influenced pop plus a
little bit of sparks, and I was obsessed with tangos
(40:22):
at the time. The last tango song I wrote before
abandoning that was take Me on Yours, So you know
that was hanging around for a few years of me.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
What's funny you said is not, you know, not necessarily
much to it in terms of being kind of overly complicated.
But you know, I always think that the simplest songs
are the best. I look at a song like you know,
to me, one of the greatest songs ever written is
In My Life, and it's a song that I feel
like when everybody hears it, they're like, oh, I could
have written that, and yet the only person who wrote
(40:55):
it was John Lennon. There's just such a simple beauty
to it.
Speaker 5 (40:59):
Yeah, absolute, Yeah, it's a beautiful song.
Speaker 6 (41:02):
And you're right because it means it means the same
to people, I think, because it meant it's so personal,
but it's it's sort of universal too.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yeah, what's funny you say about being so personal? I mean,
are the songs that you've written over the years, you know,
I was asking about songs that like become favorites to
play live. Are the songs you've written over the years.
You know, it's some of your biggest hits that you're
kind of like surprised the audience responds to them in
that way. Like again, when you look at a song
I Tempted or Black Coffee in Bed or you know,
(41:36):
black Coffee in Bed is one of those ones that
reminds me of I did a book a few years
ago called Anthems We Love, and I spoke with all
these different songwriters and two of the people I spoke
to you were Graham Nash about our House and Daryl
Hall about Sarah Smile. And there were such simple personal
songs written about one person each that became monster, you know,
(41:56):
like favorite songs around the world. And Black Coffee and
has that simple feeling too where it's kind of like, wait,
why does everybody love this so much? Because they want
the feeling of it.
Speaker 5 (42:07):
Wow, that's tremendously complimentary and thank you. Yeah, I get that.
I totally get that. Sarah Smile, for instance, It's like
that song is like magic to me. What it does.
Speaker 6 (42:24):
It's just it's like the most charming, beguiling person you'll
ever meet. Is contained in that song, you know, and
what a mood, what a mood, What a mood.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
To create.
Speaker 6 (42:39):
The Graham Nash It's been one of my biggest influences,
the harmonies that that I do. Half the time, I
imagine I'm Graham Nash and what would he do?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
All right? So obvious question, what one Grad Nash song
do you wish you had written? And why?
Speaker 6 (42:57):
Uh uh? Sleep song from Songs for Beginners, Just such
a beautiful, simple song and he plays with melody over
essentially a very simple chord structure.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
What's so interesting about that, though, is I'm sure you've
heard from people over the years you have the same
effect on people. I mean, people have been such fans
of your songwriting, you know, and I'm sure it's like,
and I've talked about this a artist teal, there are
people who are like, wait, really you like my music?
I would never expect you to be a fan. So
have there been you know, unlikely people of surprise? Are
(43:42):
people you've heard from that have surprised you, or responses
you've gotten to the songs that have like really stood
out to you.
Speaker 5 (43:50):
Okay, so that's a really easy question. I met quest Love.
Speaker 6 (43:57):
And he was obsessed with a song that actually a
song that we did for Argie Bargie that was that
our manager insisted wasn't on it called what the Butler
Saw and Questlove was obsessed with was that was obsessed
with that song when he was a kid, and he said,
you know, I've never heard a song like that.
Speaker 5 (44:18):
And I was so pleased that he liked it because
I love that song.
Speaker 6 (44:23):
And and it never got not many people heard it
because it was pushed off off of Argie Bargie.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
See I love that though too, that he loved it
when he was a kid, because right, you look at
it again, this goes back to the simplicity of songs
and like, for example, you know a song like Yellow
Mister Blue Sky, I Love Yellow, I Love jeff Lynn.
That's a song that's so brilliant and you hear it
when you're six years old and you're like, this is
(45:06):
the most fun song. So for you you tie this
back into the new record. Is it something that you
kind of can learn to appreciate the simplicity more. And
not to say these songs are simple, but you know
when you're first starting out, of course you don't have
all the same tricks of the trade that you do
when you're fifteen years into you know, like a Hall
(45:30):
of Fame career.
Speaker 5 (45:31):
Yeah, yeah, you know. I think what you're saying is right.
But my relationship with sommarizing it's weird because.
Speaker 6 (45:49):
I like to when I'm working on music, I obsess
with things and not any too yes, but my listening
habits change and I begin to analyze what people are doing.
Speaker 5 (46:08):
And so, and when I write, I stop.
Speaker 6 (46:11):
I stopped writing for a while, and then I start
writing when there's a time for me to do it.
And whenever I start writing, it is like being unfit.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
You know.
Speaker 5 (46:20):
It's hard. It's really hard. It's not like you just
for me. I don't just fall back into it.
Speaker 6 (46:26):
And for the period writing for the new album that
we did alongside Trixies, I spent two months working on
one song and it ended up being great. But two
months on a song it's like being tortured, you know,
like really, like seriously. I couldn't get past it. I
(46:48):
didn't feel like doing things. I just wanted to get
this song done. Towards the end of the process, I
wrote two songs in ten minutes. The absolutely amazing. And
that's how different My mindset was from the beginning of
the project to the end that I'd accessed a different
(47:09):
way of thinking. But in that different way of thinking,
I can't enjoy music. I just it's like an illness.
I analyze it, and so the only way I could
stop doing that and enjoy music is to not write
and to just I drift back down to hearing something
and being able to enjoy it without going, oh, I
see what's happening here?
Speaker 5 (47:30):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (47:31):
It's weird, No, exactly what you mean. I love that
because I'm friends with Neil Diamond. Weirdly, I've known him
for many years, done winer notes with him. And the
reason I was smiling when you were telling me that story,
and I think he's one of the greatest songwriters ever,
as are you. And he was telling me a song
like I am I've said he said that song was
that one of us was going to die writing that song,
(47:53):
either the song was going to kill me or I
was going to get the song. But then he said,
a song like Sweet Caroline came from God. So most writers,
I think, have that experience where it's just like some
songs just fall out, like you know, and then other songs,
you're like, what the fuck?
Speaker 5 (48:13):
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely, that's it.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
You know, over the years, are the songs that have
like just you know, I've talked to so many writers
about this, the idea of writing being a formal channeling
and the antenna up in the song coming in. Are
the songs for you that are just like slid out
so easily. You're like, where did that come from?
Speaker 5 (48:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (48:38):
Well, you know, so like to like two songs that
I've written, I'm very proud of Tempted Sounds Natural. Yeah,
that took me a week. That really took me a
week of solid chord by chord is really slow and
(49:03):
not and even then I didn't know how it would go.
We've recorded it once a terrible version before we recorded
it again and got the right version, so you know,
the record is also part of it. And you're right,
some Fantastic Place, which is one of my favorite songs
that we've written. Literally, I saw the lyric. I knew
it was about Maxine, who I'd known since I was fourteen.
Speaker 5 (49:27):
She died.
Speaker 6 (49:30):
Terribly early, and I sat down, I saw the lyric,
and I sat down and played the song it. I
didn't even make it up. It just came out and
it was right, and that was it. I can't explain that.
Speaker 5 (49:45):
It just happened.
Speaker 6 (49:46):
And it's a complicated song, but it's a beautiful song.
I'm really proud of it, and it feels like it's
not me.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
I've heard that from so many writers, so interesting over
the years, so many I mean, I've heard from people
dream songs, you know.
Speaker 5 (50:02):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (50:05):
Actually the first time I wrote, I dreamt and I
can still remember it, and it's quite like the lyrics
are the lyrics of an eleven year old, but the
two I can I can still play it in my
head out. It's a full, full specter production. It's a
big thing. It's got lots of chords, and I woke
(50:27):
up taught myself how to play the chorus. It's it's
I've never used it. I should use it actually, but yeah, yeah,
writing is it's all those things you can you can
attune yourself to, catching things, you can make yourself aware.
(50:48):
And then the other bit of it, the five percent,
the magic that just fucking hams.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
I mean. But you know, it's funny you say you
dream the first one, because that's talk with many people
about this and it's kind of like it's weird to like,
you know, because everybody has that wonder when you're a kid,
and what it turns out is like it's almost interesting,
like artists have been able to keep that channel open
or other people just shut it down because they don't.
Speaker 5 (51:18):
Use it, right, right, Yeah, I mean that's that's really interesting,
I think.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, it's just an
interesting because I talked to so many songwriters. But let's
you know, I know, we only have a couple of
minutes left, let's wrap up on this album. And you
know what's fascinating about this to me, Like it's funny.
I was talking not long ago with the Black Crows
and talking about the nineties versus today. Yeah, you know,
(51:46):
and this is fascinating to me because you know, the
seventies were to so many people a tumultuous time because
you're coming out of you know, Vietnam and everything like that,
and this was like, right now, I believe in seventy four.
And yet now, you know, it's funny now when you
look at it, the seventies seem like, you know, so
(52:10):
innocent compared to how fucked up the world is today.
So it's very interesting to put on an album from
then today because I mean, for you talk about the
difference in times and you know, like I mentioned, to
go Out in the Dark was a song that felt
like you could be written today. Yeah, the whole this album,
as you say, it does take you to seventy four,
(52:32):
So talk about you know, sort of what you think
of then and you think of now, because again, you know,
as the vice of this thing seem then, at least
especially in America where I am, it's like nothing.
Speaker 5 (52:47):
Which is for a writer in a way, a very
nice way to be.
Speaker 6 (52:55):
And I think I have my whole life ahead of
me and I never thought of it like that at
the time, but that is what it was, and that's
also a great place to be and I'm not there
anymore and somewhere are very different and.
Speaker 5 (53:14):
Writing, if it's you know, at its best, can reflect that,
I think.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Absolutely, So wrapping up on that, that's interesting. That goes
back to what I was asking about the songs being
prophetic and even though these were fictional songs about you know,
a fictional place. You know. I was talking about this
some of the other day. My favorite songwriter of all
time is Tom Waves. And you know, you give write
a song like Chocolate Jesus and while it's a total,
(53:46):
you know, fictional song. You look at a song like
Georgia Lee, for example, and it's fictional about a girl.
You know, but it doesn't matter if there's always a
piece of him in there. And I'm sure when you
look at these songs there are pieces of you in
there that maybe because they were written when you were
so young, you didn't even know that they were part
of you.
Speaker 5 (54:07):
Yeah, that is really true. That is really true. It's
the only.
Speaker 6 (54:13):
You know, it's the only way back for me to
get to try and understand who I was at that time.
And Chris too, Chris, you know, Chris was a sophisticated
guy compared to me. It had experiences that I'd never had,
and he made those available for me, and that was
(54:37):
a blessing.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
Doub What were you then?
Speaker 5 (54:42):
What was I then?
Speaker 1 (54:44):
I mean? No? Where were you then? Yeah? I mean
you say, it's the only way to get back to
who you were. It is a fascinating thing to look
at songs you wrote fifty years ago. Let's say again,
you know, because like you're not even sure who you were.
Speaker 5 (54:55):
That Yeah, Okay, so, I mean, the only thing I
know is that I am. My life is entirely the
product of.
Speaker 6 (55:10):
Of meeting Chris and being able to do what I
do because it's such a rock and roll Please say this,
but if I hadn't done this, I wouldn't have done
anything else. I know that I was destined for a
life that wasn't perhaps great, let's put it that way.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
So now you're getting to revisit this and do this
stuff now, and do this upcom when you were in America.
I mean, today's one of those things that we got
to wrap up in a second. So we'll make this
last question. But you appreciate it so much more because
I was looking at it this way. Right when you're
in your twenties, at least for me, I was an idiot.
You know, You're doing all these amazing things and you're
(55:53):
just like, oh, this is going to happen every night.
And then only when you get older you realize, oh shit,
being at a BMI event little Richard, Chuck Berry and
Bo Diddley, it's the craziest fucking thing of all time,
you know. But when you're twenty seven, you're like, oh,
it's gonna be every night, and then you get older
and you're like, holy shit, did that really happen? So
are you able to appreciate things now so much more?
Speaker 7 (56:14):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (56:15):
Yeah, with exactly that perspective. You know, that's part of the.
Speaker 6 (56:21):
Charm of being young, isn't it that you don't have
any real concept of being anything other than alive forever?
Speaker 5 (56:29):
You know that what I'm twenty now, I've got tons
of time. You know, Well, that's just that.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
But you often think that all these amazing things are
just commonplace, and then you realize, like, you know, oh,
writing a song they tempted. No, that's not going to
happen every day.
Speaker 6 (56:46):
No, No, yeah, I mean it's not. It's that was
a game change of a song. I mean, haven't I
don't know how many of those who have written, but
it's definitely mean not very many of them.
Speaker 1 (57:05):
You've written quite a few. But I will tell you,
as someone who's talked to everybody, this always makes me laugh.
When I was doing the anthems Wook, I talked with
Robbie Greeger about light my Fire, and I talked with
Steve Windward about give me some Love and and they
both said the exact same thing. If we knew how
we wrote them. We would write those songs a million
more times. Thank you nowadays cool? Is there anything you
(57:30):
want to add that I did not ask you about?
Speaker 5 (57:34):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (57:35):
Is there anything that you want to add I didn't
ask you about before we wrap up?
Speaker 5 (57:39):
No, I think you've You've been really great. I'm very grateful.
Speaker 6 (57:44):
It's been really nice to talk to you and really
stimulating and interesting, and I thank you for that.
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