April 22, 2026 • 40 mins
On this week's In Service Of, host Steve Baltin sits down with singer/songwriter Vanessa Carlton in one of the only interviews she is doing for her new album, 'Veils' In an utterly fascinating, hilarious and engaging talk, Carlton talks about her recent guest appearance at Coachella with Teddy Swims, gardening, songwriting and wanting to keep her songs a mystery.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, the Steve Balton and this week got in scripts
up man, This conversation was a blast. Had so much
fun with Vanessa Carlton talking about her new album Veils,
talking about daydreaming, talking about her surprise performance at Michella
with Teddy Swims, including how it was almost knocked out
by a windstor had so much fun talking about moms,
(00:29):
which I never thought I would enjoy talking about, but
really entertaining, insightful conversation of being an artist in twenty
twenty six. So I hope you enjoy this and learn
as much from this one as I did. Adore Vanessa,
This was.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
A lot of fun and a very special interview.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Well, first off, thanks for being here today. You know
it's so funny because I am old enough as you
can see when the sun is not like reflecting off
me that I remember when released Day was a tangible
thing and you know, like literally going to the record
store after school to buy an album The Day came out,
(01:26):
so too par A question for you, first, what was
the first record you remember getting the Day came out?
That one record that you were so excited too, you
know that you had to get like as soon as
it was out.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Oh my god. So I'm thinking it's the Tower Records
on sixty seven then Columbus or was it sixty seventh
then Amsterdam? I you know, I don't. I don't know
if I remember the exact like record. I will tell
(02:03):
you the new like the listening booth that they had
for like independent they call them, like independent artists or
like unknown artists. You know, you would like go and
just put the headphones on. That was literally my favorite
thing to do.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Nice. Do you remember any of the records that you
really got turned onto there?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah? Actually, you know what's funny? That was like I
remember Moby's Play that album like before it took off
and sold like twenty million billion records. It was like
a new you know, just one of those weird independent records.
I love the cover. I was like, who is this
guy jumping on his bed? Like I don't know. It
(02:48):
was like back in the day too, when like artwork
would pull you in, Like I've always been really into
album art. It's one of my favorite Yeah, so I
remember that, But I was sort of like I was
a weird music person in high school, Like I my
favorite record was like this swing music compilation CD that
(03:13):
you know. I just I was really like into very
unpopular Eson, you know, when we.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Were just ahead of the curve because, like you said,
playing one on the cell, you know, like twenty billion copies.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Thank you. No, I know, I'm I and I'm trying
to think who else was on the table, honestly, Steve,
Like in my mode that I'm in now, like every
six months, my mind clear's history, I swear. But yeah,
the music, that's the thing. It's like that's what carries us, right.
(03:49):
Like I'll listen to a song that I was listening
to when I was twelve, and it's like I'm right
back there, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I was Actually I just saw Springsteen. He's my favorite
artist of all time. And that was the whole review
I wrote, was like talking about the fact that like
music more than anything else, has the power to like
fight time more than any It's funny. Had a really
funny conversation at the Resonator Awards, which I don't know
if you're familiar with that, No.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
But I I know the name. I know, I've heard
of it.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Okay, Well, it's definitely the bizarre. He's the brilliant engineer.
It's her organization.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Oh yeah, no, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but are
you kidding? Now? I know, I'm like, why have I
heard of that? It's Emily, She mastered veils.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Emily is a dear friend. She's amazing.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Oh my god, that's so funny.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Sorry, yeah, but she has this next year you have
to come and she does this Febinator Awards. It's brilliant.
And I had a really funny conversation with John Mayer there,
who have been forever, and our first interview was twenty
something years ago, so we were both like, how is
that possible? Like he's like, I find myself thinking did
(04:58):
I pass thirty five?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Wait?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Was that forty? And you know, it's just so funny
because in your mind, especially when you're in music, you're
always still like twenty two.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
I know, well I think forever. Like even like one
of my friends here, she's in her eighties and she
tells me she's like Vanessa, I feel like I'm still
twenty five. Like it doesn't our spirits, like I do
think that they're a bit ageless. Right, So time really
(05:33):
doesn't make sense because because we're humans and we like
to mark time, right, So it's like it's like such
a contradiction.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Well, it's interesting because you know, and then the second
part of my first question that it was so for
you now of course there's no longer running to the
record store, But what does really stay mean? I mean,
because it's still like, you know, the whole world is
now online. Still get to see immediate feedback to veils,
(06:03):
you know, even if you're not like physically you know,
going into a store to hold the copy or anything that, like,
the feedback is even more immediate.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Oh, I just don't even let me tell you. I
think the key to life now is like turning off
comments like online, like phone culture is like what I
want to be. I want to be outside planting these
these moms that somehow revived their container all winter, Like
I don't. I can't do it, man, I can't do
(06:36):
the feedback loop is like, I think it's killing us.
It's killing us.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
All that's fair because most artists, actually every artist that
we were spoken with, which is fucking everybody, literally from
James Brown to Adele to Deity Top so literally almost everybody.
Everyone agrees the second you release a song or a
probably it's no longer yours. As soon as you release it,
(07:03):
it belongs to the world.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, I mean that's technically correct, right.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, So do you find it just better for it's funny?
I mean, you know, so you did a Kotella. We
started talking about that before we turn this on. You
did a Thousand Miles, which is one of those songs
that you know, it's funny. We're talking about songs taking
you back, and it's like for the whole world that
(07:33):
is a time travel machine. Is it one for you
as well? Or are you aware of why it is
so significant to everybody else?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Oh? Yeah, no, and a time travel machine is a
good way to put it. But you know what's so
weird about that? Younger people aren't weren't there for it.
So it's like new to I don't get that song,
I really, I mean it's so funny. I don't really
(08:04):
get what happens with that song. But I will say
that when I'm playing it in front of people, I'm
like really focusing on trying to do it well. So
and I think, yeah, like the coach Alla thing too,
I was like, it was just I don't really do
very many interviews anymore, so, I but I did one
(08:28):
earlier today. It's just it just too it's just it's
you and my other interview. That's it, Steve. But we
were talking about Coachella actually, and honestly, what I was
thinking about when I first started playing that song is
there was a thirty mile an hour wind like warning,
(08:52):
like right before I went out, and like Jaden's manager
was like, it's so bad that we might have to
like collapse of the set and like this and that,
and I'm like, you know me, when you're just playing
this song on a piano, you are like totally frozen.
You're like totally stuck. You can't move anywhere. And I
was like, oh my god, I hope that my piano
(09:13):
is facing the right direction for the wind. Like either
it's gonna be Beyonce moment or it's gonna be really
fucking bad. And of course I like sit down and
it's the wrong direction and all my hair, all of
my hair is blowing the wrong way. And I actually
said to Jaden before I went out, I was like, listen,
if it's really bad, because I can't sing with hair
(09:36):
in my mouth, I'm just gonna say hair and like
you have to go around on the back and just
like hold my hair. Okay, and he was like, sure,
I'll do it. You know, it's like everyone's having this
moment with this song and I'm like just like technically
trying to like survive. But it was No, it's a joy.
It really is a joy to have a piece of
(09:57):
music like that that everyone's like, oh, I love this.
You know how rare is that?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
No, but it's really funny because I mean, you say,
you don't necessarily people who were younger weren't there there.
I've talked about this some people recently because it's a
fascinating thing, and you know, but it does make so
much sense. There's a nostalgia for things that people didn't
even see because let's face it, right now, the world
is so fucked up in so many ways. Even things
(10:27):
that you know, for us did not seem so simplistic
now feel much more idealized.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Yeah. No, I think you know what, I hear exactly
what you're saying. And I think what it is, too
is phone culture is taking away our stories, in our storytelling,
in our sense of storytelling. So it's like, because that's
really who we are, right. All we do is we
(10:59):
tell stories and they get passed down and like so
I think that that's where we find our meaning. And yeah,
I think living in this age where it's just like
the feedback loop of comments and the attention span is
(11:20):
so short and maybe that I don't know if I'm
making sense, but I think it has something to do
with like searching for more meaning to things like because yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
As you said, you want to plan bombs. And the
reason I bring that up is because I've heard so
many people like They're a brilliant, brilliant record last year
by an artist named Anastasia. I don't know if you
heard it, And but what's happening is I'm finding more
and more artists who are returning to nature and organics
and yeah, because people are fighting this like technology and
(11:59):
the desire to constantly be I mean, people are just
overly inundated. And then of course, with the world being
so screwed up, this is not stuff you want to
be inundated with.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Yeah, oh for sure. I mean people forget I think too,
like how much time they used to have on their
hands and how much time they used to actually work
with their hands, like oh my god, oh my god.
I mean I'm pretty good on I phone, but I'm
still could be around two hours, and I'm like, what
the fuck am I doing for two hours on this?
(12:34):
You know? But I agree, like being out in the
garden is like it's my most favorite thing and I
can't tell you how much I've learned about and just
just to be lost in thought puttering around and like
trying to figure things out in the garden is like
it's brought such meaning and joy to my life. So
(12:57):
and also I will say just the metaphor of like
you have to cut things back in order for it
to you know, renew itself. Like there's just so many
moments in the garden. I'm like, wow, this is sort
of like poetic man.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
You know, well, I imagine it also really inspires you musically,
and I'm sure probably a lot of uh, you know.
It's funny I've talked to, like again going back to
like I've literally talked with like Mike Stoler, who co
wrote Fucking stand by Me and jail Ass Rock about
the songwriting process and how no one knows where it
(13:33):
comes from and it's so so conscious and so you know,
most every song I've ever spoken to will tell you that,
you know, the channels are just open and the ideas
come in. And where I'm going with this is, I imagine
so many ideas come to you in the garden because
so many people talk to me about the idea of
being outside and nature being a big trigger for ideas.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Yeah, I think what it is too is just being
lost in the like those times we used to have,
all of us used to have those times, all of
us that was part of being a human being, or
everybody just lost in thought. You're waiting online, what do
(14:20):
you do, You're looking around, you're in a car, you're
looking outside like there's nothing to do, or maybe you're
reading a magazine or a book. But like, those are
the time. That's why I sometimes get a little bit
like a little bit of a worried Jewish mother happening
with me where I'm like, where are the young? How
are these young you know, artists going to protect their
(14:45):
you know, they're daydreaming. How do you protect that? You know?
Speaker 1 (15:03):
That's fascinating though, because that's not something I ever thought of,
even though I do talk to some of the artists.
But it's like, I think, if you're an artist again,
and you know, I think that daydreaming is always going
to be there. I think as humans, we just realized that,
you know, it's necessary, and it's like, you know, I
(15:25):
think I'm a huge kind of Crows fan, and I
think of that line from Missus Potter's Rollaby. I love
Adam Dirtz's writing. I think he's an underrated writer where
he says, if you've never what, you've never looked off
into space, then you're you know, like your life is
a waste.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
I know. It's just that that contemplation, that curiosity comes
from having nothing to do, you know, having nothing to do.
So I think that's that's what I hope people protect.
(16:03):
And you don't have to have a big garden or
be outside even like even it was just a little
pot of growing something inside or just not growing anything
at all, like I you know, like remember people used
to you know, I was thinking about this this morning
after I dropped my kid off at school. They'd build
ships in bottle like you know, like yeah, people together
ships and bottles. Yeah, because I was thinking about what
(16:27):
was the equivalent to like puttering around in the garden,
Like everyone, what's your puttering thing that you liked to do?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
You know? Yeah, no, it is interesting. I mean you now,
so what was your puttering thing when you were younger
and you were first getting into songwriting, you know, I mean,
were you always in the gardening or was there another
puttering thing?
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Well, I was just always dancing. I was so into dancing,
and I would play the piano. I mean piano for me,
I guess was my version of puttering around because it
was like it was so informal and it'd so no pressure.
My mom was a piano teacher and she ran a
piano school out of our house, so like all the
kids would come and she always had she was have
(17:09):
blow pops and lollipops for them, and it was like
it was for me. It was like a playground and
all the kids would come over, you know, so when
they would leave, and we had like three pianos in
her house because she was also a Baldwin dealer, so
they weren't really our one was our piano, but yeah,
I would. I would always be able to just sort
(17:32):
of flock to the piano and play something and use
your hand, you know, like using your hands is so important.
But if I wasn't doing that, I'd either be outside
or I'd be dancing. I was so into ballet, so.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah, so for you, it's funny. Let's take this in
the veils. Was there like sort of one sort of
moment in the garden that jump started this record? And
I you know, I say in the garden, but it
does not, of course have to be in the garden.
But you know, so often there's like I find there's
one song that'll jumpstart process.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
I mean, I'm trying to remember the first one that
I wrote for this, because I know the music for
I'm Not Dead was written while back. It was just
like a backburner. I don't know what to do with
this kind of thing, and then this was like the
moment for it. But I will say, like I don't know,
(18:31):
I think the music for Agony of the Flower was
one of the first bits of music. Yeah, so that
sort of that sort of tracks, doesn't it. Yeah, I know,
I love that concept of no matter you can cut,
you can cut a flower. I mean, of course it
depends she has to be a perennial, but you can
(18:54):
cut a flower down over and over again, but she's
gonna come back because of her roots, which I just
I love that. But you know, being such a an
amateur gardener, like even that concept alone I'm like, oh
my god, this is so you know, I didn't get
into this until I was in my forties.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So that is so interesting though, because i mean, boy,
talk about a metaphor for a fucking music career, you know.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Yeah, so I was there.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
What's that?
Speaker 4 (19:29):
I know?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I know her roots are in that soil.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Well, what's interesting. I was talking last night with speaking
of Coachella with Armand Van Buren and Adam Byer to
Gja who did a B to B set there, you know,
and it was really interesting because they're both older now,
and I was telling you my child a recent conversation
as well, with separate conversations with Chris Robinson and Black
(19:53):
Crows and Billy Corgan, and we're talking about the fact that,
you know, being in their fifties close to sixty, they're
both in enjoying music so much more, in the camaraderie
that comes with like no longer being in your twenties.
You know, like in your twenties you're so competitive. So
do you feel like now when you make a record,
you just get to enjoy it more. And of course
(20:15):
when you have a kid as well. I've talked about
so many artists nothing else matters anymore. All that stupid
shit doesn't really matter, because all of a sudden, the
only thing that matters in the world is that your
kid is happy. So everything else is just kind of
like bonus.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
No, I know, well, yeah, I think I feel both
of those things. I mean, when you have a kid,
especially early on and especially as being the mother, Oh
my god, it's like it's all about time, like focused time,
scheduling time. And I don't think I mean, I used
(20:54):
to talk about being a daydreamer. I used to be
so like laala about like yeah, like let's just I'll
work on this a little bit like this, and then
maybe a little bit later I'll work on this part.
And everything was like so spread out and disorganized, and like,
once I had that kid, I was like, I have
two hours to write this right now. I could be
(21:16):
so focused and I actually thought it improved. It was
like it was almost like a crystallization for me. Like
it for me, it helped me focus as a writer
when I had her, and then if I was gonna
go out and leave the house and do shows and
then do a tour, which, by the way, at one
(21:37):
point I tried to tour with a baby which I
was in a van with a six month old baby.
It sort of worked. But if you're gonna leave the
house into a tour, your show's better be really fucking good.
You know. I'm like, I'm not doing this unless, like
I am putting all all of me into this show.
(21:57):
So it's worth the time away. It's worth it for
the audience and and then I come back, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
So but for you again, going back to what I
just mentioned, the camaraderie you did the film with uh,
you did the score last year for Juliet Styles film
you played on Broadway. Do you find that camaraderie both
of the musicians but also in other creative aspects.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, I almost feel like starting with Rabbits on the Run.
So that was my first independent record that I that's
sort of like for me, it was this burst of freedom.
And we're talking about renewal earlier, like I think I
just cut everything off, like cut everything down and just
got to grow again. Like I got to not be
so cheesy and use my plant my flower reference. But
(22:49):
it was like, oh my god, So that was the
gift of that song. I got to fund this record,
but you know, I got to fund this record, so
then I got to just pick and choose like the collaborators,
like my dream collaboration, and that that was the beginning
of me really being able to engage in musical camaraderie.
(23:12):
And of course, over the the experiences of making my
earlier records I've had, I had some awesome sessions with
the musicians that I met and played with. I mean,
some of them are absolute legends. So I don't want
to undermine those experiences. However, like under the umbrella of
(23:34):
that sort of pressure to sell or present something a
certain way because I'm not the investor in the record.
It was it was just it was different, you know,
I didn't have the power to It was just a
different experience, you know. But yeah, it's all about, in
(23:54):
my opinion, collaboration, camaraderie. It's so it's it's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Well, you worked a lot with Dave, who I've interviewed
in the past, and you know, know from I know
him from Wayne Goin because I've known Wayne, and I mean,
how much does you know finding that sort of partner
who you know And then of course you did the
Juliet Score with your husband, you know, so for you,
I mean finding partners that you really you know, because
(24:24):
I mean how much just finding partners that you really
vibe with just to add to the music and to
the experience and you know, also just let your creativity flourish. Oh.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Absolutely, well. I learned a lot when I first started
dating John, Like I learned a lot from just sort
of watching his studio sessions. Like he was working out
of this really cool studio in Nashville, and he just
have like sort of a revolving door of musicians and
friends that he knew that would come through and they
just record, you know, multiple songs in a day to tape,
(24:57):
you know, like you write it and record in the
same day. And it was like great, you know that
sort of style of collaboration and organization. It was like
I was so impressed watching that I'd never seen that before.
And then like I think, yeah, by the time I
(25:19):
started working with Steve Osmorene, who's absolutely brilliant, I would
actually Steve really did help teach taught me a lot
about this as well, though I was ready to. Like
it's like a it's like a maturity in the studio
where you're like you have this idea, but you're not
(25:41):
clinging to.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
It, like like you can tell when someone is like
it's how do I explain this? Like like once you're
able to just like let go of what you think
is great.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
And like come like you can come back around to
it or like what that that's when you are able
to flow in a studio with everybody, Like you can
always tell the person that's like but wait no, this
is it, this is it, and it's like but it's okay,
we got that, Like let's try something else and we
can always go back to that. Like you know, I
used to be that person. I was like, wait no,
(26:21):
but this is It's like there's nothing, nothing is permanent,
like you can you know, so I don't know that
flexibility and approach I think is like so fun, makes
makes collaborations so fun, you.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Know absolutely, And again as you say, d I mean,
as I was saying, 're talking with people that when
you get older, you'd just get more confident and so
you know, it allows you to be more flexible because yeah,
you know't stuck to like certain ideas. So for this record,
were there moments that really kind of you know, surprised you,
(27:01):
either in the studio or in the writing because I
always think back to the stick Cave quot where he
talked about the fact that you now again with the
idea of writing being subconscious. He said in Faith Helping
Carnage's book that you know he'll be on stage in
a year and a half later he'll be like, oh,
that's what that means. And most writers will tell you.
I mean, I remember Anie de franc got joking with
me and I'm like, what does this out mean? And
(27:22):
She's like, I don't know, asked me in twenty years.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Oh my god, I'm so glad you just said this, Steve.
I am so glad because I literally like Rashaan's like,
can you write something up about what the album it means?
And I'm like, yeah, but not really, Like I did
carry around this book on stoicism the whole time, but
(27:46):
like I don't know. It's like listen to the record,
like I don't know, I don't really know. Can I
just say that? Like and I will know in like
five years. I go back every record I've done when
I have time away from it, I look back and like, oh, right,
that's what was happening then exactly. Oh I got it,
you know, so they're right. They are absolutely right to
(28:10):
say that. I feel that way as well. And in
a way, it's like, I feel like too much explanation
sort of kills the thresholds for other people, you know,
to get in on it. And I've been I total
rash on this. I was like, cause I'm I am
an Apple music like on my laptop, and and there's
(28:32):
like all these summaries now you know, you know how
they have like descriptions submitted by the artists, like the
summary of the record or like a whole thing, and
they've just gotten longer and longer, and I'm like, I
don't want to read this. I don't want to read
like in some sometimes there's concepts that like concept records
that I understand. But you know what I'm saying, it's like,
(28:53):
I bet from your point of view, I mean, what
do you like? How much info do you want?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Very little about the fact that you know, music is
supposed to be open to interpretation. I've interviewed everybody, as
you can tell, I've never asked anybody what the hell
song means because most of the time they don't know.
But more important thing, my interpretation is going to be
completely different than theirs.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
You are very wise. You are very wise.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
I'm not. I just get to talk to people who
are much smarter than me.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
No, you you got it, You got it going on?
Speaker 1 (29:30):
What's funny? Because I would love to see somebody specifically
you just you know, when you're writing that submarine be like,
who the fuck knows? Ask me in five years.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
I just so would love to. I mean, rachelle will
I don't think he would accept that he's a good manager,
So I don't. But that's so, that's exactly right, that
is the answer.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I know. Well, I mean, who's gonna argue with the
I need to frank up?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Yeah, good luck? You know, godspeed.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
So so you don't know what it means, but you
still you get glimpses. So are there moments that now
surprise you in this?
Speaker 3 (30:30):
I mean like it's interesting because philosophically, what I was
getting and taking away from, like what phone culture is
like doing to people, like doing to people's minds. I
think it has made its way into veils, you know,
like unknown driver. And you know, so I really do
(30:52):
look at our ourselves as like we're like our bodies
are like houses with hallways, And I feel very strongly
that you know, we all have we all have ghosts
in our halls, and if you do not honor your
(31:13):
ghosts and acknowledge them, they run your house. And it really,
you know, it tied into So that's very much unknown driver.
I guess it touches upon but it really tied into
this bigger concept that I was learning about philosophically, and
(31:35):
it's called my god, what the fuck is it called?
Speaker 1 (31:39):
See?
Speaker 3 (31:39):
This is how I don't know. It's called amathea, and
it's really it's like it's just like this concept of
like anti wisdom, if you will, Like I feel like, uh,
I don't know, I don't know. See this is the
minute I try to explain what something means, I can't
(32:01):
do it. I'm like a million wormholes. But amathia is
with something that I've been like seeing it because of
like the nature of social media and stuff and extremism
on social media. It's like this this this absence of
contemplation and thought, like you just said, Steve, something so wise,
which is like I don't know, Like you're like I
(32:23):
know that I don't know, and like that concept in
and of itself is wisdom, you know. And so this
idea of righteousness and like, you know, like you say
it whenever anyone thinks like I am so certain that
this is true, like this is the way it is.
It's like really, it's like it's such a poison to
(32:46):
feel that way. So I think that the concept of
veils is just like there's just so many layers to us.
We don't there's so many contradictions with us within us,
And I just feel like these songs were written over
this time where I was like figure that out for
myself and seeing it in the world around me.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
I guess, very cool. All right, two last questions, and
I'm gonna let you go because you know, I'm sure
that you do have other stuff to do since release day,
and again, as someone who doesn't really like doing a
lot of interviews, you probably don't want to spend that
much time on them. But first question, going back to
the beginning of this conversation, you know when we talked
about songs transporting ya, I was thinking about this last night.
(33:30):
What is your great escape song? That one song from
someone else that you know takes you back to we're
you know, being ten years old, five years old, whatever
it is, it just transports you out of yourself and
into a different world.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Aaron Copeland's it's specifically it's Rodeo or I guess the
ballet is called Rodeale, but it's from Appalachian Spring. It's
like it's like the overture parts like the I think
it's considered the overture bum bum bum but no, no,
it's like this whole It's unfortunately, at one time or fortunately,
(34:09):
it was known for a commercial. It was licensed for,
like a beef or steak commercial or something. I don't know.
I think this was in the eighties. But yes, that
is like one of my most favorite pieces of music
of all time. When I hear it, I lose my mind.
And also Balero, that piece is like bum but bum,
(34:32):
bum but bum those two pieces like I'm in Heaven.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Nice. And the second last question is the name of
the podcast that id. It's called In Service Up, and
it's starting with the idea of philanthropy, although it's brought
in now to realize that, like as when I talk
to musicians, you're simply always in service south most likely
you're in service of the music. But like we talked
to about, for example, a song that I a thousand
(35:01):
miles and what that means to fans. You're also in
service of fans, because every musician I've ever talked to
has had that experience of like a fan saying to them,
I had this song changed my life. I had a
baby to it. I you know, was gonna kill myself
and this song saved me. Whatever it is so for
you when you think of being in service of you know,
(35:24):
and again, like I say, you know, you're kind of
in service of to the music because as an artist, right,
you can be out of the garden and then this
idea comes to you and you're like, fuck, it's too good.
I have to get it down. So what is being
in service of mean to you and other particular organizations
for example, that are important to you to be involved with.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, well I think I'm in service of maintaining human connection.
Like what you just said is the same to me,
because yeah, I'm in service of the music or I'm
letting this like language come out of me, like crafting,
(36:10):
crafting this this musical language that really is just like
this other form of communication and deep connection to the
world around me. And then so when you bring so
I almost feel like I've connected reconnected to myself through
(36:32):
allowing this like craft to come out and like you know,
working on this craft. And then the second part of
it is like once you perform it live, you know,
then you're you're you're you're like you're expanding on that,
like you're connecting with everybody and maybe you're I think
(36:53):
I'm hoping that because I've experienced this too, but of
course we all have it shows. And then those people
that are listening to what you've connected to through your song,
they are invited to do that for themselves, like in
whatever is going on within them, you know, So it
is like this universal thread line for people. Yeah, it's
(37:17):
that's what it is to me. And then yeah, I
think for for this tour, we're we're doing a uh
you know, for every ticket that someone buys, we we
donate to save the music for you know, music education
for kids, which I again like it goes back to
like just fostering this support for for this, this day
(37:38):
dreaming for kids, you know, like explore explore this, you know,
And I think music is such an incredible outlet for
human beings, so.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Very cool. Anything you want to add that I not
ask you about.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
No, do you you're my last interview. See if you're my
second and final and yes, I'm about to go out
and figure out if I should plant these moms or
if that freeze is going to kill those roots. I
can't figure it out. I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I mean, what music freeze. I mean I'm in La
so it's yeah, it's already sick, like it's eight thirty
in the morning and already sixteen, but it'll be eighty today.
But I will do some wrap up by saying, please, please,
please be that artist who, in your description, has the
(38:33):
balls to write. I don't fucking know. Just ask me
in five years, because every artist feels that way. And
I hate the idea of like, as someone who grew
up on music in the seventies, I was a baby
in the seventies, but you know, I still love that
music and grew up in the eighties. I missed the
days of mystique in music, this idea where you have
(38:55):
to explain everything, well, this song was written so and
so about blah blah blah. It's like no, I just
want someone to like say no. Music is an era
of mystery, and it's like, you know, for an artist
to be honest and say, who.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
Knows, bless your soul.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Well, someone's gonna start, so why not.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
I know, I know you are correct, and I did
say that to Rashaan. I did. I'll see if I
can get it posted for you, because wow, but I'm
unfortunately not your best artist choice for this only because
like I don't really do interviews anymore so, but if
I do have the opportunity through some like I don't
know when they like Pote whatever it's like Apple or wherever,
(39:38):
they still try and post album summaries admitted by the artist,
I will try my best.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
My friend, wait, see, you know it's funny, I stipp
it's the albums all the way through. So I didn't
even know, like you know, because I get so many advances,
I don't even know what these albums summaries are. Now
I'm curious to go see.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Go look, they've gotten longer and longer, and I just
feel so bad for the Ar'm like, wow, they really
they really got there, didn't they? They really filled this task,
didn't they.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Well? Anyway, thank you, as someone who doesn't do interviews,
thanks for doing this one. This is a blast, and
get it somewhere at some point soon. Congratulations on the
record and enjoy your months.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Thank you, Steve
Hey, the Steve Balton and this week got in scripts
up man, This conversation was a blast. Had so much
fun with Vanessa Carlton talking about her new album Veils,
talking about daydreaming, talking about her surprise performance at Michella
with Teddy Swims, including how it was almost knocked out
by a windstor had so much fun talking about moms,
(00:29):
which I never thought I would enjoy talking about, but
really entertaining, insightful conversation of being an artist in twenty
twenty six. So I hope you enjoy this and learn
as much from this one as I did. Adore Vanessa,
This was.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
A lot of fun and a very special interview.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Well, first off, thanks for being here today. You know
it's so funny because I am old enough as you
can see when the sun is not like reflecting off
me that I remember when released Day was a tangible
thing and you know, like literally going to the record
store after school to buy an album The Day came out,
(01:26):
so too par A question for you, first, what was
the first record you remember getting the Day came out?
That one record that you were so excited too, you
know that you had to get like as soon as
it was out.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Oh my god. So I'm thinking it's the Tower Records
on sixty seven then Columbus or was it sixty seventh
then Amsterdam? I you know, I don't. I don't know
if I remember the exact like record. I will tell
(02:03):
you the new like the listening booth that they had
for like independent they call them, like independent artists or
like unknown artists. You know, you would like go and
just put the headphones on. That was literally my favorite
thing to do.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Nice. Do you remember any of the records that you
really got turned onto there?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah? Actually, you know what's funny? That was like I
remember Moby's Play that album like before it took off
and sold like twenty million billion records. It was like
a new you know, just one of those weird independent records.
I love the cover. I was like, who is this
guy jumping on his bed? Like I don't know. It
(02:48):
was like back in the day too, when like artwork
would pull you in, Like I've always been really into
album art. It's one of my favorite Yeah, so I
remember that, But I was sort of like I was
a weird music person in high school, Like I my
favorite record was like this swing music compilation CD that
(03:13):
you know. I just I was really like into very
unpopular Eson, you know, when we.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Were just ahead of the curve because, like you said,
playing one on the cell, you know, like twenty billion copies.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Thank you. No, I know, I'm I and I'm trying
to think who else was on the table, honestly, Steve,
Like in my mode that I'm in now, like every
six months, my mind clear's history, I swear. But yeah,
the music, that's the thing. It's like that's what carries us, right.
(03:49):
Like I'll listen to a song that I was listening
to when I was twelve, and it's like I'm right
back there, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I was Actually I just saw Springsteen. He's my favorite
artist of all time. And that was the whole review
I wrote, was like talking about the fact that like
music more than anything else, has the power to like
fight time more than any It's funny. Had a really
funny conversation at the Resonator Awards, which I don't know
if you're familiar with that, No.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
But I I know the name. I know, I've heard
of it.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Okay, Well, it's definitely the bizarre. He's the brilliant engineer.
It's her organization.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Oh yeah, no, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but are
you kidding? Now? I know, I'm like, why have I
heard of that? It's Emily, She mastered veils.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Emily is a dear friend. She's amazing.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Oh my god, that's so funny.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Sorry, yeah, but she has this next year you have
to come and she does this Febinator Awards. It's brilliant.
And I had a really funny conversation with John Mayer there,
who have been forever, and our first interview was twenty
something years ago, so we were both like, how is
that possible? Like he's like, I find myself thinking did
(04:58):
I pass thirty five?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Wait?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Was that forty? And you know, it's just so funny
because in your mind, especially when you're in music, you're
always still like twenty two.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
I know, well I think forever. Like even like one
of my friends here, she's in her eighties and she
tells me she's like Vanessa, I feel like I'm still
twenty five. Like it doesn't our spirits, like I do
think that they're a bit ageless. Right, So time really
(05:33):
doesn't make sense because because we're humans and we like
to mark time, right, So it's like it's like such
a contradiction.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Well, it's interesting because you know, and then the second
part of my first question that it was so for
you now of course there's no longer running to the
record store, But what does really stay mean? I mean,
because it's still like, you know, the whole world is
now online. Still get to see immediate feedback to veils,
(06:03):
you know, even if you're not like physically you know,
going into a store to hold the copy or anything that, like,
the feedback is even more immediate.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Oh, I just don't even let me tell you. I
think the key to life now is like turning off
comments like online, like phone culture is like what I
want to be. I want to be outside planting these
these moms that somehow revived their container all winter, Like
I don't. I can't do it, man, I can't do
(06:36):
the feedback loop is like, I think it's killing us.
It's killing us.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
All that's fair because most artists, actually every artist that
we were spoken with, which is fucking everybody, literally from
James Brown to Adele to Deity Top so literally almost everybody.
Everyone agrees the second you release a song or a
probably it's no longer yours. As soon as you release it,
(07:03):
it belongs to the world.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, I mean that's technically correct, right.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, So do you find it just better for it's funny?
I mean, you know, so you did a Kotella. We
started talking about that before we turn this on. You
did a Thousand Miles, which is one of those songs
that you know, it's funny. We're talking about songs taking
you back, and it's like for the whole world that
(07:33):
is a time travel machine. Is it one for you
as well? Or are you aware of why it is
so significant to everybody else?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Oh? Yeah, no, and a time travel machine is a
good way to put it. But you know what's so
weird about that? Younger people aren't weren't there for it.
So it's like new to I don't get that song,
I really, I mean it's so funny. I don't really
(08:04):
get what happens with that song. But I will say
that when I'm playing it in front of people, I'm
like really focusing on trying to do it well. So
and I think, yeah, like the coach Alla thing too,
I was like, it was just I don't really do
very many interviews anymore, so, I but I did one
(08:28):
earlier today. It's just it just too it's just it's
you and my other interview. That's it, Steve. But we
were talking about Coachella actually, and honestly, what I was
thinking about when I first started playing that song is
there was a thirty mile an hour wind like warning,
(08:52):
like right before I went out, and like Jaden's manager
was like, it's so bad that we might have to
like collapse of the set and like this and that,
and I'm like, you know me, when you're just playing
this song on a piano, you are like totally frozen.
You're like totally stuck. You can't move anywhere. And I
was like, oh my god, I hope that my piano
(09:13):
is facing the right direction for the wind. Like either
it's gonna be Beyonce moment or it's gonna be really
fucking bad. And of course I like sit down and
it's the wrong direction and all my hair, all of
my hair is blowing the wrong way. And I actually
said to Jaden before I went out, I was like, listen,
if it's really bad, because I can't sing with hair
(09:36):
in my mouth, I'm just gonna say hair and like
you have to go around on the back and just
like hold my hair. Okay, and he was like, sure,
I'll do it. You know, it's like everyone's having this
moment with this song and I'm like just like technically
trying to like survive. But it was No, it's a joy.
It really is a joy to have a piece of
(09:57):
music like that that everyone's like, oh, I love this.
You know how rare is that?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
No, but it's really funny because I mean, you say,
you don't necessarily people who were younger weren't there there.
I've talked about this some people recently because it's a
fascinating thing, and you know, but it does make so
much sense. There's a nostalgia for things that people didn't
even see because let's face it, right now, the world
is so fucked up in so many ways. Even things
(10:27):
that you know, for us did not seem so simplistic
now feel much more idealized.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Yeah. No, I think you know what, I hear exactly
what you're saying. And I think what it is, too
is phone culture is taking away our stories, in our storytelling,
in our sense of storytelling. So it's like, because that's
really who we are, right. All we do is we
(10:59):
tell stories and they get passed down and like so
I think that that's where we find our meaning. And yeah,
I think living in this age where it's just like
the feedback loop of comments and the attention span is
(11:20):
so short and maybe that I don't know if I'm
making sense, but I think it has something to do
with like searching for more meaning to things like because yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
As you said, you want to plan bombs. And the
reason I bring that up is because I've heard so
many people like They're a brilliant, brilliant record last year
by an artist named Anastasia. I don't know if you
heard it, And but what's happening is I'm finding more
and more artists who are returning to nature and organics
and yeah, because people are fighting this like technology and
(11:59):
the desire to constantly be I mean, people are just
overly inundated. And then of course, with the world being
so screwed up, this is not stuff you want to
be inundated with.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Yeah, oh for sure. I mean people forget I think too,
like how much time they used to have on their
hands and how much time they used to actually work
with their hands, like oh my god, oh my god.
I mean I'm pretty good on I phone, but I'm
still could be around two hours, and I'm like, what
the fuck am I doing for two hours on this?
(12:34):
You know? But I agree, like being out in the
garden is like it's my most favorite thing and I
can't tell you how much I've learned about and just
just to be lost in thought puttering around and like
trying to figure things out in the garden is like
it's brought such meaning and joy to my life. So
(12:57):
and also I will say just the metaphor of like
you have to cut things back in order for it
to you know, renew itself. Like there's just so many
moments in the garden. I'm like, wow, this is sort
of like poetic man.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
You know, well, I imagine it also really inspires you musically,
and I'm sure probably a lot of uh, you know.
It's funny I've talked to, like again going back to
like I've literally talked with like Mike Stoler, who co
wrote Fucking stand by Me and jail Ass Rock about
the songwriting process and how no one knows where it
(13:33):
comes from and it's so so conscious and so you know,
most every song I've ever spoken to will tell you that,
you know, the channels are just open and the ideas
come in. And where I'm going with this is, I imagine
so many ideas come to you in the garden because
so many people talk to me about the idea of
being outside and nature being a big trigger for ideas.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Yeah, I think what it is too is just being
lost in the like those times we used to have,
all of us used to have those times, all of
us that was part of being a human being, or
everybody just lost in thought. You're waiting online, what do
(14:20):
you do, You're looking around, you're in a car, you're
looking outside like there's nothing to do, or maybe you're
reading a magazine or a book. But like, those are
the time. That's why I sometimes get a little bit
like a little bit of a worried Jewish mother happening
with me where I'm like, where are the young? How
are these young you know, artists going to protect their
(14:45):
you know, they're daydreaming. How do you protect that? You know?
Speaker 1 (15:03):
That's fascinating though, because that's not something I ever thought of,
even though I do talk to some of the artists.
But it's like, I think, if you're an artist again,
and you know, I think that daydreaming is always going
to be there. I think as humans, we just realized that,
you know, it's necessary, and it's like, you know, I
(15:25):
think I'm a huge kind of Crows fan, and I
think of that line from Missus Potter's Rollaby. I love
Adam Dirtz's writing. I think he's an underrated writer where
he says, if you've never what, you've never looked off
into space, then you're you know, like your life is
a waste.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
I know. It's just that that contemplation, that curiosity comes
from having nothing to do, you know, having nothing to do.
So I think that's that's what I hope people protect.
(16:03):
And you don't have to have a big garden or
be outside even like even it was just a little
pot of growing something inside or just not growing anything
at all, like I you know, like remember people used
to you know, I was thinking about this this morning
after I dropped my kid off at school. They'd build
ships in bottle like you know, like yeah, people together
ships and bottles. Yeah, because I was thinking about what
(16:27):
was the equivalent to like puttering around in the garden,
Like everyone, what's your puttering thing that you liked to do?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
You know? Yeah, no, it is interesting. I mean you now,
so what was your puttering thing when you were younger
and you were first getting into songwriting, you know, I mean,
were you always in the gardening or was there another
puttering thing?
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Well, I was just always dancing. I was so into dancing,
and I would play the piano. I mean piano for me,
I guess was my version of puttering around because it
was like it was so informal and it'd so no pressure.
My mom was a piano teacher and she ran a
piano school out of our house, so like all the
kids would come and she always had she was have
(17:09):
blow pops and lollipops for them, and it was like
it was for me. It was like a playground and
all the kids would come over, you know, so when
they would leave, and we had like three pianos in
her house because she was also a Baldwin dealer, so
they weren't really our one was our piano, but yeah,
I would. I would always be able to just sort
(17:32):
of flock to the piano and play something and use
your hand, you know, like using your hands is so important.
But if I wasn't doing that, I'd either be outside
or I'd be dancing. I was so into ballet, so.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah, so for you, it's funny. Let's take this in
the veils. Was there like sort of one sort of
moment in the garden that jump started this record? And
I you know, I say in the garden, but it
does not, of course have to be in the garden.
But you know, so often there's like I find there's
one song that'll jumpstart process.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
I mean, I'm trying to remember the first one that
I wrote for this, because I know the music for
I'm Not Dead was written while back. It was just
like a backburner. I don't know what to do with
this kind of thing, and then this was like the
moment for it. But I will say, like I don't know,
(18:31):
I think the music for Agony of the Flower was
one of the first bits of music. Yeah, so that
sort of that sort of tracks, doesn't it. Yeah, I know,
I love that concept of no matter you can cut,
you can cut a flower. I mean, of course it
depends she has to be a perennial, but you can
(18:54):
cut a flower down over and over again, but she's
gonna come back because of her roots, which I just
I love that. But you know, being such a an
amateur gardener, like even that concept alone I'm like, oh
my god, this is so you know, I didn't get
into this until I was in my forties.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So that is so interesting though, because i mean, boy,
talk about a metaphor for a fucking music career, you know.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Yeah, so I was there.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
What's that?
Speaker 4 (19:29):
I know?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I know her roots are in that soil.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Well, what's interesting. I was talking last night with speaking
of Coachella with Armand Van Buren and Adam Byer to
Gja who did a B to B set there, you know,
and it was really interesting because they're both older now,
and I was telling you my child a recent conversation
as well, with separate conversations with Chris Robinson and Black
(19:53):
Crows and Billy Corgan, and we're talking about the fact that,
you know, being in their fifties close to sixty, they're
both in enjoying music so much more, in the camaraderie
that comes with like no longer being in your twenties.
You know, like in your twenties you're so competitive. So
do you feel like now when you make a record,
you just get to enjoy it more. And of course
(20:15):
when you have a kid as well. I've talked about
so many artists nothing else matters anymore. All that stupid
shit doesn't really matter, because all of a sudden, the
only thing that matters in the world is that your
kid is happy. So everything else is just kind of
like bonus.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
No, I know, well, yeah, I think I feel both
of those things. I mean, when you have a kid,
especially early on and especially as being the mother, Oh
my god, it's like it's all about time, like focused time,
scheduling time. And I don't think I mean, I used
(20:54):
to talk about being a daydreamer. I used to be
so like laala about like yeah, like let's just I'll
work on this a little bit like this, and then
maybe a little bit later I'll work on this part.
And everything was like so spread out and disorganized, and like,
once I had that kid, I was like, I have
two hours to write this right now. I could be
(21:16):
so focused and I actually thought it improved. It was
like it was almost like a crystallization for me. Like
it for me, it helped me focus as a writer
when I had her, and then if I was gonna
go out and leave the house and do shows and
then do a tour, which, by the way, at one
(21:37):
point I tried to tour with a baby which I
was in a van with a six month old baby.
It sort of worked. But if you're gonna leave the
house into a tour, your show's better be really fucking good.
You know. I'm like, I'm not doing this unless, like
I am putting all all of me into this show.
(21:57):
So it's worth the time away. It's worth it for
the audience and and then I come back, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
So but for you again, going back to what I
just mentioned, the camaraderie you did the film with uh,
you did the score last year for Juliet Styles film
you played on Broadway. Do you find that camaraderie both
of the musicians but also in other creative aspects.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, I almost feel like starting with Rabbits on the Run.
So that was my first independent record that I that's
sort of like for me, it was this burst of freedom.
And we're talking about renewal earlier, like I think I
just cut everything off, like cut everything down and just
got to grow again. Like I got to not be
so cheesy and use my plant my flower reference. But
(22:49):
it was like, oh my god, So that was the
gift of that song. I got to fund this record,
but you know, I got to fund this record, so
then I got to just pick and choose like the collaborators,
like my dream collaboration, and that that was the beginning
of me really being able to engage in musical camaraderie.
(23:12):
And of course, over the the experiences of making my
earlier records I've had, I had some awesome sessions with
the musicians that I met and played with. I mean,
some of them are absolute legends. So I don't want
to undermine those experiences. However, like under the umbrella of
(23:34):
that sort of pressure to sell or present something a
certain way because I'm not the investor in the record.
It was it was just it was different, you know,
I didn't have the power to It was just a
different experience, you know. But yeah, it's all about, in
(23:54):
my opinion, collaboration, camaraderie. It's so it's it's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Well, you worked a lot with Dave, who I've interviewed
in the past, and you know, know from I know
him from Wayne Goin because I've known Wayne, and I mean,
how much does you know finding that sort of partner
who you know And then of course you did the
Juliet Score with your husband, you know, so for you,
I mean finding partners that you really you know, because
(24:24):
I mean how much just finding partners that you really
vibe with just to add to the music and to
the experience and you know, also just let your creativity flourish. Oh.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Absolutely, well. I learned a lot when I first started
dating John, Like I learned a lot from just sort
of watching his studio sessions. Like he was working out
of this really cool studio in Nashville, and he just
have like sort of a revolving door of musicians and
friends that he knew that would come through and they
just record, you know, multiple songs in a day to tape,
(24:57):
you know, like you write it and record in the
same day. And it was like great, you know that
sort of style of collaboration and organization. It was like
I was so impressed watching that I'd never seen that before.
And then like I think, yeah, by the time I
(25:19):
started working with Steve Osmorene, who's absolutely brilliant, I would
actually Steve really did help teach taught me a lot
about this as well, though I was ready to. Like
it's like a it's like a maturity in the studio
where you're like you have this idea, but you're not
(25:41):
clinging to.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
It, like like you can tell when someone is like
it's how do I explain this? Like like once you're
able to just like let go of what you think
is great.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
And like come like you can come back around to
it or like what that that's when you are able
to flow in a studio with everybody, Like you can
always tell the person that's like but wait no, this
is it, this is it, and it's like but it's okay,
we got that, Like let's try something else and we
can always go back to that. Like you know, I
used to be that person. I was like, wait no,
(26:21):
but this is It's like there's nothing, nothing is permanent,
like you can you know, so I don't know that
flexibility and approach I think is like so fun, makes
makes collaborations so fun, you.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Know absolutely, And again as you say, d I mean,
as I was saying, 're talking with people that when
you get older, you'd just get more confident and so
you know, it allows you to be more flexible because yeah,
you know't stuck to like certain ideas. So for this record,
were there moments that really kind of you know, surprised you,
(27:01):
either in the studio or in the writing because I
always think back to the stick Cave quot where he
talked about the fact that you now again with the
idea of writing being subconscious. He said in Faith Helping
Carnage's book that you know he'll be on stage in
a year and a half later he'll be like, oh,
that's what that means. And most writers will tell you.
I mean, I remember Anie de franc got joking with
me and I'm like, what does this out mean? And
(27:22):
She's like, I don't know, asked me in twenty years.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Oh my god, I'm so glad you just said this, Steve.
I am so glad because I literally like Rashaan's like,
can you write something up about what the album it means?
And I'm like, yeah, but not really, Like I did
carry around this book on stoicism the whole time, but
(27:46):
like I don't know. It's like listen to the record,
like I don't know, I don't really know. Can I
just say that? Like and I will know in like
five years. I go back every record I've done when
I have time away from it, I look back and like, oh, right,
that's what was happening then exactly. Oh I got it,
you know, so they're right. They are absolutely right to
(28:10):
say that. I feel that way as well. And in
a way, it's like, I feel like too much explanation
sort of kills the thresholds for other people, you know,
to get in on it. And I've been I total
rash on this. I was like, cause I'm I am
an Apple music like on my laptop, and and there's
(28:32):
like all these summaries now you know, you know how
they have like descriptions submitted by the artists, like the
summary of the record or like a whole thing, and
they've just gotten longer and longer, and I'm like, I
don't want to read this. I don't want to read
like in some sometimes there's concepts that like concept records
that I understand. But you know what I'm saying, it's like,
(28:53):
I bet from your point of view, I mean, what
do you like? How much info do you want?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Very little about the fact that you know, music is
supposed to be open to interpretation. I've interviewed everybody, as
you can tell, I've never asked anybody what the hell
song means because most of the time they don't know.
But more important thing, my interpretation is going to be
completely different than theirs.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
You are very wise. You are very wise.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
I'm not. I just get to talk to people who
are much smarter than me.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
No, you you got it, You got it going on?
Speaker 1 (29:30):
What's funny? Because I would love to see somebody specifically
you just you know, when you're writing that submarine be like,
who the fuck knows? Ask me in five years.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
I just so would love to. I mean, rachelle will
I don't think he would accept that he's a good manager,
So I don't. But that's so, that's exactly right, that
is the answer.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I know. Well, I mean, who's gonna argue with the
I need to frank up?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Yeah, good luck? You know, godspeed.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
So so you don't know what it means, but you
still you get glimpses. So are there moments that now
surprise you in this?
Speaker 3 (30:30):
I mean like it's interesting because philosophically, what I was
getting and taking away from, like what phone culture is
like doing to people, like doing to people's minds. I
think it has made its way into veils, you know,
like unknown driver. And you know, so I really do
(30:52):
look at our ourselves as like we're like our bodies
are like houses with hallways, And I feel very strongly
that you know, we all have we all have ghosts
in our halls, and if you do not honor your
(31:13):
ghosts and acknowledge them, they run your house. And it really,
you know, it tied into So that's very much unknown driver.
I guess it touches upon but it really tied into
this bigger concept that I was learning about philosophically, and
(31:35):
it's called my god, what the fuck is it called?
Speaker 1 (31:39):
See?
Speaker 3 (31:39):
This is how I don't know. It's called amathea, and
it's really it's like it's just like this concept of
like anti wisdom, if you will, Like I feel like, uh,
I don't know, I don't know. See this is the
minute I try to explain what something means, I can't
(32:01):
do it. I'm like a million wormholes. But amathia is
with something that I've been like seeing it because of
like the nature of social media and stuff and extremism
on social media. It's like this this this absence of
contemplation and thought, like you just said, Steve, something so wise,
which is like I don't know, Like you're like I
(32:23):
know that I don't know, and like that concept in
and of itself is wisdom, you know. And so this
idea of righteousness and like, you know, like you say
it whenever anyone thinks like I am so certain that
this is true, like this is the way it is.
It's like really, it's like it's such a poison to
(32:46):
feel that way. So I think that the concept of
veils is just like there's just so many layers to us.
We don't there's so many contradictions with us within us,
And I just feel like these songs were written over
this time where I was like figure that out for
myself and seeing it in the world around me.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
I guess, very cool. All right, two last questions, and
I'm gonna let you go because you know, I'm sure
that you do have other stuff to do since release day,
and again, as someone who doesn't really like doing a
lot of interviews, you probably don't want to spend that
much time on them. But first question, going back to
the beginning of this conversation, you know when we talked
about songs transporting ya, I was thinking about this last night.
(33:30):
What is your great escape song? That one song from
someone else that you know takes you back to we're
you know, being ten years old, five years old, whatever
it is, it just transports you out of yourself and
into a different world.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Aaron Copeland's it's specifically it's Rodeo or I guess the
ballet is called Rodeale, but it's from Appalachian Spring. It's
like it's like the overture parts like the I think
it's considered the overture bum bum bum but no, no,
it's like this whole It's unfortunately, at one time or fortunately,
(34:09):
it was known for a commercial. It was licensed for,
like a beef or steak commercial or something. I don't know.
I think this was in the eighties. But yes, that
is like one of my most favorite pieces of music
of all time. When I hear it, I lose my mind.
And also Balero, that piece is like bum but bum,
(34:32):
bum but bum those two pieces like I'm in Heaven.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Nice. And the second last question is the name of
the podcast that id. It's called In Service Up, and
it's starting with the idea of philanthropy, although it's brought
in now to realize that, like as when I talk
to musicians, you're simply always in service south most likely
you're in service of the music. But like we talked
to about, for example, a song that I a thousand
(35:01):
miles and what that means to fans. You're also in
service of fans, because every musician I've ever talked to
has had that experience of like a fan saying to them,
I had this song changed my life. I had a
baby to it. I you know, was gonna kill myself
and this song saved me. Whatever it is so for
you when you think of being in service of you know,
(35:24):
and again, like I say, you know, you're kind of
in service of to the music because as an artist, right,
you can be out of the garden and then this
idea comes to you and you're like, fuck, it's too good.
I have to get it down. So what is being
in service of mean to you and other particular organizations
for example, that are important to you to be involved with.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, well I think I'm in service of maintaining human connection.
Like what you just said is the same to me,
because yeah, I'm in service of the music or I'm
letting this like language come out of me, like crafting,
(36:10):
crafting this this musical language that really is just like
this other form of communication and deep connection to the
world around me. And then so when you bring so
I almost feel like I've connected reconnected to myself through
(36:32):
allowing this like craft to come out and like you know,
working on this craft. And then the second part of
it is like once you perform it live, you know,
then you're you're you're you're like you're expanding on that,
like you're connecting with everybody and maybe you're I think
(36:53):
I'm hoping that because I've experienced this too, but of
course we all have it shows. And then those people
that are listening to what you've connected to through your song,
they are invited to do that for themselves, like in
whatever is going on within them, you know, So it
is like this universal thread line for people. Yeah, it's
(37:17):
that's what it is to me. And then yeah, I
think for for this tour, we're we're doing a uh
you know, for every ticket that someone buys, we we
donate to save the music for you know, music education
for kids, which I again like it goes back to
like just fostering this support for for this, this day
(37:38):
dreaming for kids, you know, like explore explore this, you know,
And I think music is such an incredible outlet for
human beings, so.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Very cool. Anything you want to add that I not
ask you about.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
No, do you you're my last interview. See if you're my
second and final and yes, I'm about to go out
and figure out if I should plant these moms or
if that freeze is going to kill those roots. I
can't figure it out. I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I mean, what music freeze. I mean I'm in La
so it's yeah, it's already sick, like it's eight thirty
in the morning and already sixteen, but it'll be eighty today.
But I will do some wrap up by saying, please, please,
please be that artist who, in your description, has the
(38:33):
balls to write. I don't fucking know. Just ask me
in five years, because every artist feels that way. And
I hate the idea of like, as someone who grew
up on music in the seventies, I was a baby
in the seventies, but you know, I still love that
music and grew up in the eighties. I missed the
days of mystique in music, this idea where you have
(38:55):
to explain everything, well, this song was written so and
so about blah blah blah. It's like no, I just
want someone to like say no. Music is an era
of mystery, and it's like, you know, for an artist
to be honest and say, who.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
Knows, bless your soul.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Well, someone's gonna start, so why not.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
I know, I know you are correct, and I did
say that to Rashaan. I did. I'll see if I
can get it posted for you, because wow, but I'm
unfortunately not your best artist choice for this only because
like I don't really do interviews anymore so, but if
I do have the opportunity through some like I don't
know when they like Pote whatever it's like Apple or wherever,
(39:38):
they still try and post album summaries admitted by the artist,
I will try my best.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
My friend, wait, see, you know it's funny, I stipp
it's the albums all the way through. So I didn't
even know, like you know, because I get so many advances,
I don't even know what these albums summaries are. Now
I'm curious to go see.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Go look, they've gotten longer and longer, and I just
feel so bad for the Ar'm like, wow, they really
they really got there, didn't they? They really filled this task,
didn't they.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Well? Anyway, thank you, as someone who doesn't do interviews,
thanks for doing this one. This is a blast, and
get it somewhere at some point soon. Congratulations on the
record and enjoy your months.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Thank you, Steve
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