April 9, 2026 • 39 mins
The OG America's Next Top Model on what it means to be a model—then and now—and Bethenny's amazing Swim Week experience!
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hi, how are you.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm good. I'm sorry if I just went in the
ocean because I was here for like Miami Swing Week
and it was on.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Dude, you looked fucking amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I appreciate that. Well, look, I'm above forty. I know
what it takes to keep your body snatched past that age.
So you literally gave the young chicks a run for
their money. And that's always fun, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Well, I'm sure you've done that as well.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I don't care anymore, so I don't even try.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I've never cared. I don't. I never cared. I don't.
Like I was talking about it today, I did a
post about like everyone's like, what do you do and
what do you do? I don't. I walk. That's all
I do is walk. I don't do weights. I don't
go to the gym. I think people do too much
and they like beat themselves up and it's like fear based.
And I just feel like I look natural because I
add natural. I just have always just wanted to walk
(01:06):
and have a good relationship with food and exercise. And
I think women are struggling and like beating the shit
out of themselves trying to get to somewhere, and I
think every want to say this. This show did show
me women really appreciating their own bodies like they were
very It was a lot of empowerment. They really did
love their bodies.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
See I binge on the weekends and I kill myself
in the gym, but I love it. But that's because
I'm an addictive personality. So I had to find something
healthy to do. And the healthy thing for me to
do is to work out, and I really enjoy Like Saturdays,
I'll eat like two pizzas and like six cinnamon rolls
(01:42):
until I feel like it was Thanksgiving Day. I'm like
puking in my mind. I've got yeah. But then the
next day I'm eating cottage cheese and two good yogurts
and like you know, chicken breast and some asparagus because
I yeah, I feel like you have to live. And
because of what I used to do, I know, ever
got to enjoy food. And I'm Italian, so I want food.
(02:04):
So now I give that one day where I et
whatever I want until I can't.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
But that brings up a good point because that's your
version of self regulation. That's your version of your relationship
with food. If if you feel healthy about it, if
it makes you feel good and you're not triggered by
it or concerned by that's your version. For me, I organize.
My addiction is organizing things. Everything has to be in order.
It's like, you know, it's a response or it's as
(02:33):
a result of my childhood, but like mine is things
in order. But it was a lot of messages this
weekend about all of this and women and the struggle
and thirty year olds saying a lot of this, which
is weird, Like a lot of thirty year olds saying
you make me feel like I'm not I haven't peaked yet,
and like I could have my era at any age.
(02:54):
Like the woman who works for me is thirty one,
and she's like, I don't feel great about myself. I
feel like I'm not at my best now after my baby,
but like now you make me fe like I have
so much time, you know, to figure it all out.
And then women my age are saying, thank you for
not making everybody think that we're just like old and
washed up. Like so it hit two things at this end.
It hit the women that are your age saying wow,
(03:15):
like look at like It just gave a perspective to age,
which I think was unexpected by even me, by Sports Illustrated.
I think it just like has become this thing that
means so much more than what it actually was.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
See you're like the uh, I guess the TikTok version
of Dame Helen Mirren who peaked later on in life.
And everyone's like, who's this hot bitch? Look at her?
And I mean, she's started peaking hard and she's still peaking.
She's in that mob show. She looks great.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
That's funny. That's right. Wouldn't that be good? That would you?
That's a good trajectory. Yeah, so maybe, but nothing's nothing
of that was intentional. I'd just like to find the
meaning and things and so it cannot be just like
walking down a runway. As you know better than anyone.
And I asked, I wanted you. I've never met you.
I know who you are. Remember you were on the
show with it was it Greg Braid which Brady and
(04:06):
you were married, and that's what I remember. And you
want to show you on Top Model and I'm so sorry, no,
but that was that was a big media moment and
I remember you from that and I've always remembered you
as like a fun, sort of wild model. And then
I was just scrolling and I saw you talking about
selling Avon And it was right after having Susan powder
(04:28):
On here telling me that she was an uber driver
in Vegas and delivered food to Louis c K's house,
and like there was like this moment about like people
who everybody saw a certain way in society and media
and fame, and it just like was weird that I
saw you right after that, and it was just like,
(04:49):
I don't know. I just was like, I want to
talk to her about what this journey has been and
like what that was about.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, it's interesting. So my season of Top Model, I
was the only winner that won no money, zero dollars.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That means there was no money in my win I got,
I got a title. Well, they lied to our season
and then they voiceovered what Tyra was saying. They told
us we were going to be a Revlon cover girl,
and Revlon told me afterwards we had no intention of
doing that. And then when it aired on TV. You
can ask any girl from my season, They're like they
(05:25):
changed everything Tyra said to us. She was telling us
we were going to be this huge Revlon like superstar,
because I don't think any of us would have fought
as hard as we did for what the prize really was,
which is the title. So I always joke because people
are like, you still call yourself America's next Top Model,
and Mike, it's the only fucking thing I won. I'm
(05:45):
gonna put it on my tombstone bed.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Oh my god. Well wow, that's crazy because some of
the girls. Was Kenley Collins on that or was she
only a design show? There were some girls who come
through my messages a lot because people from Project Runway
and people with a model they get mixed in together
with me. But like they reached out to me because
of the Reality Reckoning and they're all like telling me
all these crazy stories and like this is another one.
(06:09):
You must have definitely seen the Reality Reckoning stuff and
been like jumping up and down on your couch like,
oh my god, like yes, right.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
You know what's really funny is everyone wanted me to
dog pile on Tyra Banks when twenty twenty was happening
and everyone was getting pissed, and I was like, no,
because if anyone has a right to be mad at her.
It's me and I'm over it. I don't give a
shit anymore. What she taught me was the truth of entertainment.
(06:36):
It's cutthroat. You can't trust everybody, and everyone is lying
to you. So she actually gave me a great lesson
and the show was just a avenue for her to
propel herself into something else after she aged out of modeling.
I see that now, and if I can let it go,
everyone else can. It was funny because everyone's like, oh,
(06:58):
she did this, she did that. But then I would
look at the people who watched the show and I'm like, yeah,
but you watched it, you made it popular. It's your
fault too.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah, you could say that about the house So the
thing I have to say about that is the game
moves fast when you're the talent in that situation, and
it's really the production company totally, and she's part of it.
But like as a housewife, like we're moving drama, we're
not thinking, you know, when when someone's calling, When Teresa's calling,
Danielle saw a prostitution horror on national television. She's not
(07:32):
thinking about the fact that Andy Cohen's gonna unwatch what
happens live, have that song like that sound like prostitution
makes make rap songs out of it, and that it's
gonna be at the Bravocon. They're gonna have like a
reenactment of Prostitution War. There's a person that, no matter
what she's done in her life, has two daughters that
will see her as the prostitution War. That's like the
(07:54):
production I think more not that Tyre wasn't part of it.
It was her show, but I'm not even doing I
don't know Tyra Banks, And all I'm saying is just interesting.
The machine, it's a toxic machine where the ratings are
by any means necessary ratings, right any it does not
matter what it takes to get there. And you're right
about the entertainment industry. And now it's probably scario because
(08:18):
you know, people don't watch as much because they're watching
an on their phone.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
What do you think of all that I said? I
may'd be wrong. I want to hear because I didn't
watch the show that much. The audience takes the drug
and they're addicted. You know, you know John Ham and
very famous people go on watch Rapids live and last
at these housewives shows that I was part of that
like do ruin some people's lives, not everybody's, but there
are a lot of casualties from these shows. And you're
(08:43):
you know, yes, I agree.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
I went into post production on a show with Antonio
Sopato Junior called Maya, Antonio and VH One because I
wanted to learn the ends and outs and I wanted
to be able to do post production work. And I did,
and I helped vilify I wanted the contestants. Sure, she
was kind of a villain, but I might have tweaked
it a little bit to make her look worse. And
(09:07):
I'll never forget it was the premiere party or the
rap party. She came up to me and she was
upset and she's like, you understand more than anyone what
they can do to you. And I felt like the
most rotten, soulless human being on earth. And I tapped
out of post production. I never did it again, because
I'm like, wow, man, I just jumped right into the machine.
(09:29):
And I was so eager to please the executive producers
and stuff like, look, I'm a hard worker. I'm more
than just talent. I can actually work on a show.
I have nothing to do with and be bad ass
that I was helping, you know, Frank and bite conversations
to make them worse than what they were, and I
was the asshole.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Here's the problem. You put me on the Sports Illustrated show.
You give me direction, you tell me you have fun.
You go out there, you be yourself. I went out there.
I danced like I was in my own bathroom. I
understood the assignment. And even in lorel when I wear
giraffes shoes and I walked down like a giraffe like
they said, you do what you want to do. I said, Okay.
My point is I show up on time and I
(10:24):
always land it whatever it is, or I don't go.
So you go on reality television. I'm on the housewise,
I'm there to make shit happen. Other people are supposed
to be there for the same reason. If you're Tinsley Mortimer,
a very lovely, sweet girl, you get caught in the
crossfire of what we're doing in the goal of the show.
Get the fuck out of the way. You shouldn't be here.
Then we're you know, we're here to kill people. So
(10:44):
that's the problem. That was what the nature of the
Beast was the beast was create a show, make ratings,
make drama. That's what HEDI do. That's what Spencer did,
That's what you know. So it's really the responsibility is
the teacher has to have some control over the classroom totally.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
And that's why when people are like, well, aren't you
mad at Tyra, I'm like, no, Tyra was a snake
and a pit of vipers that learned how to survive exactly,
So why would I be mad at her? For literally
her entire life since she was like fourteen, she was
in modeling, which is the viper pit of all viper pits.
(11:21):
She is a product of her entire life, and I'm
like whatever, Like she's just trying to breathe and live.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
So period. Yeah, so you and also, you know, business
is hard and being an entertainment person, being a talent
and being a business person, being a creative and a
business person is not easy. I mean, if you listen
to Susan Powder talk about the fact that she sold
it was three hundred million dollars and she's an uber
driver because you're listening to people around you, it's the
(11:50):
game is fast, so it's like we're doing this, we're
doing that that sounds good. You don't know where to go.
And the person who says that saying that they're going
to take care of you and handle it. You just
want someone to handle it, so you sign up with
someone and then they you know, it's what happens to
the boy band. So you never made any money? Like
did you ever make any money? Like what happened? And
what do you do for a living?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I mean I made enough money to pay Los Angeles bills.
Like I was living in a shitty one bedroom apartment
in Hancock Part that was twenty three one hundred dollars
a month and it was like a closet, you know
what I mean. So I made enough to survive. But
I've never been like rich, and I'm cool with that,
(12:30):
Like I'm totally fine. So when I was thirty two
years old, I was tired of being touted as a
sex symbol. And I met my now husband, who's a
good old Kentucky boy gentleman, and I'm like, I want
to have a normal life with a guy that doesn't
treat me as a trophy, who like values me and
(12:50):
not covets me, but uh protects me and doesn't want
me to be seeking the validation of men and like
sexy inser posts and stuff. I was just tired of
that for me.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
So, so you're soul crushing, you're warning Yeah, no, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
When I was young, and I remember my management and
everybody was like, why are you acting like you're seventy
years old? You have a solid ten more years to earn,
And I'm like, yeah, but I'd feel like I'm gonna
be losing my soul. So I said no to a
whole bunch of stuff. And I actually lost my apartment
at thirty two years old, and my husband had me
(13:30):
move in with them because like, I hit rock bottom
because I was saying no to crap I didn't want
to do because I just didn't want to feel exploited anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
I get it, I yeah, but when you jump, you fly.
When you decide who you are and what you don't
want to do, that was me leaving Housewise, my whole
life changed after I thought I was like sort of
semi retiring and only gonna do this podcast at my
philanthropy and the things that caught me appearances that come
out of living in truth and walking out. I ended
up creating this career which is awesome, crazy, but I
(14:01):
wasn't even I didn't even try. And now I am
leaning into it, but it's because of the truth of it.
If I was like trying to be the last one
on the house Lives noticed to take the big check,
I was getting a lot of money. I would have
been my soul would have been crushed. And while HSN
is great, I didn't like doing it. I've never, once
I've been somewhat successful, done anything that I don't feel
(14:24):
good about doing. I don't like if I only do
I feel I don't do it no matter what it is.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, and basically I've been offered like reality TV show
jobs at sure there's a paycheck, and yeah I could
really use that money, but at what costs? So I
just said no. And then like a few years later,
I was like, what am I going to do with myself?
I thought I was going to be a personal trainer,
But what I found after certifying is just a bunch
(14:50):
of dudes that wanted to train with me, which I
didn't find appropriate. Like me and my husband like, that's
that's asking for trouble. I wouldn't feel good if a
bunch of checks just wanted to train with my husband Ja,
so I was like, this can't be for me. So
one day I had a myomectomy. I had a benign
tumor on mac. I had that, yeah, so they had
(15:10):
to take it out. And while I was high on percoset,
I watched Edward Scissorhands and I saw Peg the Avon Lady,
and high as a kite, I guess I was like,
Avon's still around, and I signed up to sell it.
I didn't remember, and the kitch showed up at my
house and I was like, well, I have nothing else
to do. And I thought I was going to make
fun of it and like do reviews about how much
(15:32):
it sucks ass, and then I ended up just loving
it and I started selling it. So it's funny. People
are like, what do you want to do, and I'm like,
I just want to be the best save On Lady
on Earth. That's what I'm going to do. And people
laugh and I'm like, laugh it up, bitch, like I'm
having a good time.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Avon's great. I saw their recent line. They sent me
their recent line of all like the vitamin C and
like the packaging is amazing. This stuff is good. But
I would imagine you could make. I think you're laughing
because you were actually making decent money, like good money
selling it.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
I was, I was until a few years ago when
the economy just tanked into the ground. Like it's been
a struggle. I'm trying to rebuild my little Avon empire.
I'm not the top of Avon lady anymore. I'm getting
my ass handed to me, and I think that's awesome.
But wait, but did Avon reach out to you after
your article. I'd imagine it wouldn't. Well no, I mean
(16:24):
we know each other like they know me. I know them.
I'm in an independent rep basically, so I'm like, I
don't speak for them, Thank God for them, the poor fuckers,
like if I was their mouthpiece. But yeah, I just
I just want to sell Avan, dude, and live in
the mountains and tell everyone in Hollywood to go fuck themselves,
(16:48):
not you. That's how I feel.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
No wonder you said yes it did. Podcast. I think
I still have a podcast. It's what I think you
are very do. I like the way you speak, your
very articulate, and like your thoughts that you're super polarizing
an edgy but like make perfect sense. I think you
should have like a really I think you should have
like an reverend podcast.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
We'll see. I guess what. I like to call it
decompressing from narcissistic traits, because my therapist said I wasn't
a narcissist to go in there to be like, oh
my god, I don't want to be a narcissist. She's like, well,
then you're not, because no narcissist gives a shit about
being a narcissist. But I feel like, I don't know,
I don't I'm not chasing the dragon anymore of like relevancy.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
No, I got it. I mean as a self expression,
I don't do. I'm in a bathing suit, wet from
the ocean. I just sat there for you. Oh, Like
I'm excited to talk to her. When I talk about nothing,
it does way better than when I talk to like
a big time celebrity, Like the people just want to
hear people express themselves, and you seem very honest.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
So I feel like, well, I kind of like this,
meaning like you don't have like a whole bunch of
fucking like stage and bullshit. Like that's so much better
I think, and life like you could do that.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I think that's what I'm saying, you don't have feel
like it doesn't have to be anything, you should do
it yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
And why do I feel like no one would give
a fuck?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Though you never know. If twenty people listen and give
a fuck, maybe after this they'll give a fuck. But
we'll find out. You ask my team what the people
in the comments said. Guys in the comments, do you
like this? And do you give a fuck? Okay, so
what do you think about modeling now? Like? What is modeling?
So you go out like, so I didn't understand. I thought,
(18:38):
let's use sports ollsced as an example. Let's talk about
Victoria's Secret, and let's talk about you know what modeling
is now. So now you have Kendall Jenner, Gigi Hadid
and people who and and Lisa Brenna's daughters, and there's
a lot of it's got it's got nepo baby to it,
which I call my daughter the nepo baby because you've
got Lisa Brenna's daughters. And I don't believe that without
(18:59):
that sort of platform, or Gigi and Bella and the
mom's platform, I believe it has to contribute. And maybe
it doesn't, but it has to. And so I'm growing
up in Beverly Hills. And then also like presumably in
different areas of modeling and brands hiring models, they're hiring
Instagram models or social media models because they have a following.
(19:21):
So there's like there's so many different roads in now
and then now there's more inclusivity, and so at Sports
Illustrated this weekend, I was asking the different women like
I didn't understand the process. So, like I said to
this girl at this club, I said, so, like, and
how long have you been doing this? And she's like,
I auditioned for five years and I finally got it.
And I'm like, You're like, are you a model? Like
(19:41):
model to begin with? She's like, no, I'm a fitness
My mom is Denise Austin, and I'm a I teach
videos and I do like fitness and diet like eating coach.
I go oh, And I was like, oh, so you're
like quote unquote a regular person that auditioned. And then
there was another woman I think it's Tonday and she's
a peloton and str so I didn't understand like the way.
(20:02):
And another woman said at forty years old, she got it.
So that's like a very unique way that these women
are saying, like, I'm a model, So like I always
say I'm a super model, I think I actually am
now because if the girl who's the fitness person and whatever,
I'm a model too.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Now you know it's depending on the household name. So
I guess you could coin yourself that Janis Dickinson just
told everyone choose the world's first supermodel, and now that's
how everyone knows there. So just own it, say it
and make it so right.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
But I mean it's because when I was growing up,
like you had to be. Kate Moss was disruptive because
she was five seven, Like that was disruptive. Like that
was like you had to be. There was a wool,
you had to be over five to nine.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
None of this would have happened in my day. I'll
tell you. I've sat in Wilhelmina Models during the open
calls waiting for my you know, sheet of where I
was going to do go season the day, and I
would hear the agents talking about girls. If you came
in there and notice filler in your face or plastic surgery, goodbye.
They wanted to wow natural only. So I would say
(21:07):
ninety percent of the people modeling today when you have
to remember Christy Turlington, Naomi Campbell, Nikki Taylor, Cindy Crawford Day. Yeah,
these weren't faces that were touched by science. This was
natural and like Christy Turlington, Stephanie Seymour, they had little
quirks that worked from like a little wonk to the
(21:30):
eye but in the cutest way.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Well Inton had his face between her tea.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yes, So it was like elitists like they wanted natural
goddesses that looked like an alien. Beam them down and
they would take no less.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
So if you get but the reason I get that
is because Lebron has a god given talent. Yes he's
worked on it, but he has a god given talent.
So what I guess, what I'm saying is what I'm
little girl, you know who is think she's overweight or
not like traditionally thin or short or broken out or
(22:08):
has a birthmark in her face, says I want to
be a model? What is she saying she wants to be?
What is a model? Now? Because I don't even necessarily
have a problem with the fact that they were all
aliens that were stunning, because that Lebron's an alien too,
and there's nothing wrong with that, like, it's just what
it is. A jockey. You're born shorter. You cannot be
a six foot jockey in the in the in the
(22:29):
Kentucky Derby.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
So I'm still yeah, Well, it's like if if in
the industry becomes something anyone can do, then as you're saying,
what is it anymore, like if anyone could be an
NFL player, if anyone could be in the NBA, Like
if I can maybe hit one basket out of a
whole game because God blessed me with that one basket
(22:50):
and then I sucked the rest of the time. Like
I don't know anymore.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Pat, do you tell your daughter, yes you can be
a model, because what is she think she wants to be?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
What is famous? Just famous? I think relevant? Chasing the
dragon of that fifteen minutes of glory, I think. But
I mean, honestly, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
But but as Sports Illustrated swimsu model, I can tell
you now what that is and what that is now
because I was there and I was shocked and you
would be shocked by it. I was back. So this
is my experience. I come in. I don't know. I
know there's a magazine that every year I think it
was in February, would have all these gorgeous women, and
I remember Kathy Island was also disruptive because she was
(23:36):
super like forty like, and they were pushing the envelope
with different types like then I guess later I think
it was Kate Upton and she was more curvy, and
I was like, wait, wow, that wasn't what we grew
up with, the model And so they started pushing the envelope.
But then years later you'd see like other people and
I never understood, like what I just wasn't. It just wasn't.
I wasn't the audience for I don't understand it. So
(23:58):
now I'm there and I'm backstage, and I think, like
everyone's what I used to think was a model, Like
there's a swimsuit model. So I think everybody's gonna be
five nine, five ten and blonde and sin and look
like everybody's gonna look the same. So I'm like, we, oh,
we you're you're sport you're a peloton. Oh. So I'm
(24:19):
like everyone there was so into themselves in the best
possible way, like like it was contagious. It was like
it was the embodiment of like I love my body,
I love my ass, I love my curves, I love
my lines, I love my my cell like and it
was like they picked women, but who could rock something? Like?
(24:40):
Who could rock something despite not being traditionally tall shorts,
sin whatever you're supposed.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I think it works for lingerie and bikinis, but I'll
tell you, as someone who used to be like, oh,
like someone shorter could model like a beautiful evening gown,
it's harder to model things as not a five to
eleven person because all of a sudden, the instead of
(25:08):
the dress wearing the model and the dress being on display,
it becomes about the model and not the dress. Now
with bikinis you want to and lingerie you want to
show it on bodies to you know, show women you're
gonna look good. But I'll tell you that I don't
think certain clothes look good on someone who's five foot
(25:29):
five walking down a runway because I stop looking at
the clothes and I start looking at the girl.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
That brings it back. So being a model originally was
the people that were chosen to highlight the clothes because
of the sizes, like the samples. So right, okay, so
make sense. And these women are showcasing all of this swomen,
different body taste. I loved it, and I think they
did an amazing job of bringing us to twenty twenty
(26:10):
five without it being performative and girl Boss and BS
where those people go backstage were like there to help
you succeed. The girls wanted me to win and do
better than them, Like I never saw anything like it.
It's the opposite of what you experienced. Like there are
these girls like, no, you're not going to tip your
hat at the end. You know why you're getting that
fucking money shot. Your body is tea. You stopped there,
(26:31):
that's your money, Like, that's what the girls who are there.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I'm jealous. You guys actually looked like you had fun.
We were modeling for me was not fun and you
didn't get to walk down the runway having a good time.
You were expected to do a certain thing.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Oh and it was competitive. This was like the opposite.
This was shocking more than the show itself. That was
what I thought was a beautiful thing for my daughter
who's fifteen now, and her body came in and she's
not used to this spy and she's got a woman's spot,
Like for women that like that to be like no,
you own that body that you were given, like I
just you like they I'm fifty four, they were. Most
(27:10):
of the girls were in her twenties, so it was
like it was very It's great that I'm talking to
you right now after this experience. It's like poetic because
it was the opposite of what you experienced. To be honest,
would that be more opposite of what you experienced on
America's next topic.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I think it's awesome. And I've always been of the
belief that when it comes to lingerie and bikinis that
you should show a piloth of different body shapes and
how these garments are gonna make them look you know
what I mean?
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah, make true too.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
That makes sense because these two garments are all about
the body and accentuating it. So when you would put
rail thin chicks in it, like I've I've always had boobs,
except for now because I had an X plant. Let's
not get into that. I lost a lot of my
natural breast, But prior to that one, it's my real
sea cup boobies. I always had boobs. So i'd see
(27:59):
models in with no chest, I'm like, oh, I'll buy that,
and I'd get it and then I'd look obscene because
it was like all cleavage everywhere, and I was like,
that's not how she looked. Damn it.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Well, let's talk about that going into swimsuit season, which
is such an insecure time for people walking into a dressroom.
I want to say this. I am the person I
have never put a song on in my entire life,
and I wear mostly one pieces now because I just do.
I because I feel in my mind a construct, like
I'm looking like that desperate older woman trying to cling
(28:32):
on and wear a bikini. My best friend's like, I
don't know why with your body you're not wearing bikinis.
I'm like, I don't know. I just like the elegance
of it and the saying I know my age and
I know where I am, et cetera. So let's park
that because I do like like that, and that is
part of who I am, where I would never put
on a thong. That's how I feel, right, I agree
with you. So I have a certain construct about who
(28:53):
should wear what, including myself. After this show, I thought
of that there was a bathing sit they gave us
that was a thong one piece. I was gonna wear it. Today,
not because like I'm trying to show up. I was
just going on my beach walk. I was gonna wear
it because like I wasn't gonna fucking wear the thong
because I did the show and I had picked my
two beating suits, and I said to the editor in
chief the one of the ones who was the one piece, like, go,
(29:14):
I like that to one piece because I still know
that I'm a mom and I know how old I am.
Whatever I say, all this bullshit that I don't know
is bullshit. Yet I'm in the dressing room and the
woman who one of the women who works there, her
hand comes in and I'm trying bathings to son after
just for fun, we've already picked the two and I go,
is this and she's like, yup, And it's a thong
like but not a thong, like a literal piece of
(29:36):
string up your house string. Yeah exactly, that's the difference.
So so I go, I go okay, and I'm laughing
because it's a joke. And I put it on and
I start to put the top on it. I'm like,
wait what And I come out and that's when they're like,
we're giving this bitch a third look. Because we all
I don't think any of us thought, and I was like, okay.
And when I was at that show, there were evy
(30:00):
girls rocking little bikinis, and I thought it looked great.
But I would never have if I was shopping with
those girls, I wouldn't have suggested that they put those
on because of the constructs that we've had. And I
swear after that show, I thought, like every freaking girl
and every size wearing a bikini, wear whatever you want.
It felt they really landed for me. Was I have
(30:20):
a different feeling about it now.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
You know what's funny is one, I haven't more on
a song and so long, i'd be terrified that all
I would do is pick my butt publicly because I
would feel something that's a functional problem.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
And then two, I'm so over being looked at in
that way that I would just cover my ass because
I don't want anyone to look at me.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
No, And I would understand if someone wasn't, I guess
objectified the way I was for that long. And they're
like feeling themselves now that they'd want to get a
little taste of that. The thing is I ate from
that table. It's not that good. I'm good, I'm over it.
I could wear it.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
You had an identity that was based on showing your look.
So that's traatic and that makes a perfect sense to me. Yeah.
I just mean, as I raised a fifteen year old daughter,
I'm thinking of things completely differently, and I just if
I can only give her one thing, it would be
like that she would be backstage with me and like
walking down that runway to like see how those girls
(31:23):
like love their body whatever it is, Like it was
just so contagious and so I like that message. And
I just think that there's part of this in society
that's changed about let's say modeling, which you can speak
to that I like this part that I just experienced
because it was like it's positive for women.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, no, I have to agree. And again, when we're
purchasing something that's supposed to accentuate our bodies and like
the best of ways where you're like half naked, it's
nice to see all different body types showing you what
this stuff will look like on your body, as opposed
to this inhuman alien that's been shot down from the
(32:02):
planet Zultron with this perfect body that you know none
of us can obtain. Or we don't have Like if
you have hips, you want to see somebody in something
that has some hips to see what that's going to
look like on you. That's just how I feel.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
But also to the point of the era that you
came up in, of being a vapid, vacant lookoff and
gazed and don't have fun and don't dance, and you're
not human, You're a hangar, I would say, honestly speaking
with the long hair I had and the glazel over
my body and the bathing suits and a song. I
just walked down that runway like in some version where
(32:38):
I rocked it as like a model, Like just walking,
what are you doing to costume trying to be a model?
I was myself having fun. Like what I looked like
was like accentuating it. But I was genuinely being myself
and I was happy. And I think the reason it's
landing for all these women with all these body types
(32:58):
that are not part of the content, thinking it should
be they walk I saw their personalities first. I think
people saw me being alive and happy first, and everything
else came together. I think it all it's about being happy,
and you were miserable doing what you were doing, and
everybody on America's Top Model seems to have been miserable,
and everybody here's modeling here was funny.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
It's personality driven now, like influencers and all this stuff,
it's all personality driven. I was told in modeling that
I need to tone it the fuck down, that it's
not about me or who I am, just shut the
fuck up and do my job. And that's when I
went into more reality TV and I went and did
the Surreal Life because I was like, fine, I'll go
(33:40):
and make money being who I am since you people
think I need to shut the f up and stop
being made like. I would be on sets with a
bunch of models that they just wouldn't speak. It'd just
be like sitting there and getting their makeup done, and
I'm like, man, this is some bullshit, oh ladies, and
everyone's looking at me like what. Or if a photographer
(34:01):
was gross, I'd just call them out on it right there.
I'd be like, bro, like what are you doing? And
everyone's like, oh, I can't believe you said, And I'm
like what is this?
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Like what am I in? Okay? So that's what I
think the real difference is. That's what I think, and
I actually think fashion should take a note out of
this book. So here's what I think. Like, I do
not I can afford anything I want. I don't have
a stylist. Now, I think I dress fairly well. If
I want to go out to something, I think I
(34:28):
can rock something. I always create something in my mind
creatively about where I'm going to be, what I want
to wear, what I want to put it with, how
I want to do my hair, like I come up
with a little thing, you know, and not long like
I'll just and I always shot my own closet. So
now people who get invited to the met Gala, oh
or fashion icons are people whose stylists choose their entire
(34:50):
look head to toe. Now a little assistance is something
calling a designer's one thing. But there are people who
do not dress or seem anything like what they used
to look like because they are now dressed as a
stylist like painting. And I don't think that that's fashion.
And what's interesting is that Anna Wintour herself has basically said,
and so Tom Ford talked about it too, that he
(35:13):
used to like what the mcalle used to be versus
like now it's like a theatrical performance, yes, which I
do get. I get that because it's expressive and Rihanna
comes out and it's drama. I get that. But the
people whose personal fashion style is based on a stylust
that end up getting invited as a result of that,
to me, that doesn't make any sense because it's not
(35:34):
that person, you know.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
It's it's comic con for famous people where they all
cosplay things that they're not. That's what I see. It's
a bunch of cos players that are famous dressing up
as characters that they are not. And I mean, I
agree with you. I a mess when people would wear
shit that spoke to who they were and now it's
(35:59):
just like very hunger games.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
And I think fashion should make the adjustment that modeling
has into it being someone's personal style and you get
to see what they would do, like what the person
chooses on their own, not that they go hire someone.
That should be That should be illegal, like the way
you know what I mean, that should be like you
get you get points out for that, like Anna, because
Anna Wintour doesn't dress like that. She herself wears the
(36:25):
same couple of episodes and she's got a personal style
that is hers. It's timeless, it's what her style is.
And so she has said before someone should dress in
a way to speaks to them, like she's been quoted.
I don't know what the exact quote is or many times,
but like that, it's natural to them. So it's it's contradictory.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Yeah, I think everyone's just turned into a stage performer.
It's like Steven Tyler and money wears on stage like
no one. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
I think.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I always hated the word influencer, but I guess it's
the modern day reality stars. People on social media. They
are stealing the thunder from celebrities because celebrities are still
faking everything and they don't know who they are inside,
and then the people on social media know who they are.
It's being projected out there and people are liking what
(37:15):
they're selling and buying into it. So I think people
look at stuff like the Matt Gala and you just
see a sea of people that aren't very self aware
or tapped into who they are or being told what
to like and do, and it's not working because people
like people are so tired of everything being fake. Filters
(37:36):
this that that you know, if you put yourself out
there just being you. They're like eating it up like
it's manna from heaven. They're so starved for it.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
That's what exactly. Yeah, you should have a pot. Yeah exactly.
That's exactly how I feel. And that's exactly where the
universe met me where I am because that's what I've
always been and I think that that's that's that's how
citizen's journalism is started. That's my mainstream celebrities with the
script and the gloss and the shine. It's not working
because you can't pr your way out of life anymore.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Unless your Tom Cruise is working for Tom.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Well, he has very specific roles and he doesn't talk
that much about other things besides the roles and the work.
So yeah, that's exactly. Well. Wow, I could talk to
you forever. I think you're amazing. So this was thank
you a great.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Solversation, fellow reality og.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yes, very very good to talk to you. My instincts
were right about talking to you. I like you a lot.
I think you're really smart and very honest. So saying
I hope to speak to you again, I hope Avon
calls you and gets you involved in a bigger way
that's what I'm manifesting for you, and I hope you
do a little like garage band podcast for you. For
anyone else, I just like, just talk to a couple
(38:52):
of people. I don't know. I just think you should.
That's what I think. It's it doesn't matter what I think,
but it matters what you think. So it's so nice
talking to you and meeting you, and hope.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
You man you too. Bye Lady.
Hi, how are you.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm good. I'm sorry if I just went in the
ocean because I was here for like Miami Swing Week
and it was on.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Dude, you looked fucking amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I appreciate that. Well, look, I'm above forty. I know
what it takes to keep your body snatched past that age.
So you literally gave the young chicks a run for
their money. And that's always fun, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Well, I'm sure you've done that as well.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I don't care anymore, so I don't even try.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I've never cared. I don't. I never cared. I don't.
Like I was talking about it today, I did a
post about like everyone's like, what do you do and
what do you do? I don't. I walk. That's all
I do is walk. I don't do weights. I don't
go to the gym. I think people do too much
and they like beat themselves up and it's like fear based.
And I just feel like I look natural because I
add natural. I just have always just wanted to walk
(01:06):
and have a good relationship with food and exercise. And
I think women are struggling and like beating the shit
out of themselves trying to get to somewhere, and I
think every want to say this. This show did show
me women really appreciating their own bodies like they were
very It was a lot of empowerment. They really did
love their bodies.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
See I binge on the weekends and I kill myself
in the gym, but I love it. But that's because
I'm an addictive personality. So I had to find something
healthy to do. And the healthy thing for me to
do is to work out, and I really enjoy Like Saturdays,
I'll eat like two pizzas and like six cinnamon rolls
(01:42):
until I feel like it was Thanksgiving Day. I'm like
puking in my mind. I've got yeah. But then the
next day I'm eating cottage cheese and two good yogurts
and like you know, chicken breast and some asparagus because
I yeah, I feel like you have to live. And
because of what I used to do, I know, ever
got to enjoy food. And I'm Italian, so I want food.
(02:04):
So now I give that one day where I et
whatever I want until I can't.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
But that brings up a good point because that's your
version of self regulation. That's your version of your relationship
with food. If if you feel healthy about it, if
it makes you feel good and you're not triggered by
it or concerned by that's your version. For me, I organize.
My addiction is organizing things. Everything has to be in order.
It's like, you know, it's a response or it's as
(02:33):
a result of my childhood, but like mine is things
in order. But it was a lot of messages this
weekend about all of this and women and the struggle
and thirty year olds saying a lot of this, which
is weird, Like a lot of thirty year olds saying
you make me feel like I'm not I haven't peaked yet,
and like I could have my era at any age.
(02:54):
Like the woman who works for me is thirty one,
and she's like, I don't feel great about myself. I
feel like I'm not at my best now after my baby,
but like now you make me fe like I have
so much time, you know, to figure it all out.
And then women my age are saying, thank you for
not making everybody think that we're just like old and
washed up. Like so it hit two things at this end.
It hit the women that are your age saying wow,
(03:15):
like look at like It just gave a perspective to age,
which I think was unexpected by even me, by Sports Illustrated.
I think it just like has become this thing that
means so much more than what it actually was.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
See you're like the uh, I guess the TikTok version
of Dame Helen Mirren who peaked later on in life.
And everyone's like, who's this hot bitch? Look at her?
And I mean, she's started peaking hard and she's still peaking.
She's in that mob show. She looks great.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
That's funny. That's right. Wouldn't that be good? That would you?
That's a good trajectory. Yeah, so maybe, but nothing's nothing
of that was intentional. I'd just like to find the
meaning and things and so it cannot be just like
walking down a runway. As you know better than anyone.
And I asked, I wanted you. I've never met you.
I know who you are. Remember you were on the
show with it was it Greg Braid which Brady and
(04:06):
you were married, and that's what I remember. And you
want to show you on Top Model and I'm so sorry, no,
but that was that was a big media moment and
I remember you from that and I've always remembered you
as like a fun, sort of wild model. And then
I was just scrolling and I saw you talking about
selling Avon And it was right after having Susan powder
(04:28):
On here telling me that she was an uber driver
in Vegas and delivered food to Louis c K's house,
and like there was like this moment about like people
who everybody saw a certain way in society and media
and fame, and it just like was weird that I
saw you right after that, and it was just like,
(04:49):
I don't know. I just was like, I want to
talk to her about what this journey has been and
like what that was about.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, it's interesting. So my season of Top Model, I
was the only winner that won no money, zero dollars.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That means there was no money in my win I got,
I got a title. Well, they lied to our season
and then they voiceovered what Tyra was saying. They told
us we were going to be a Revlon cover girl,
and Revlon told me afterwards we had no intention of
doing that. And then when it aired on TV. You
can ask any girl from my season, They're like they
(05:25):
changed everything Tyra said to us. She was telling us
we were going to be this huge Revlon like superstar,
because I don't think any of us would have fought
as hard as we did for what the prize really was,
which is the title. So I always joke because people
are like, you still call yourself America's next Top Model,
and Mike, it's the only fucking thing I won. I'm
(05:45):
gonna put it on my tombstone bed.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Oh my god. Well wow, that's crazy because some of
the girls. Was Kenley Collins on that or was she
only a design show? There were some girls who come
through my messages a lot because people from Project Runway
and people with a model they get mixed in together
with me. But like they reached out to me because
of the Reality Reckoning and they're all like telling me
all these crazy stories and like this is another one.
(06:09):
You must have definitely seen the Reality Reckoning stuff and
been like jumping up and down on your couch like,
oh my god, like yes, right.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
You know what's really funny is everyone wanted me to
dog pile on Tyra Banks when twenty twenty was happening
and everyone was getting pissed, and I was like, no,
because if anyone has a right to be mad at her.
It's me and I'm over it. I don't give a
shit anymore. What she taught me was the truth of entertainment.
(06:36):
It's cutthroat. You can't trust everybody, and everyone is lying
to you. So she actually gave me a great lesson
and the show was just a avenue for her to
propel herself into something else after she aged out of modeling.
I see that now, and if I can let it go,
everyone else can. It was funny because everyone's like, oh,
(06:58):
she did this, she did that. But then I would
look at the people who watched the show and I'm like, yeah,
but you watched it, you made it popular. It's your
fault too.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah, you could say that about the house So the
thing I have to say about that is the game
moves fast when you're the talent in that situation, and
it's really the production company totally, and she's part of it.
But like as a housewife, like we're moving drama, we're
not thinking, you know, when when someone's calling, When Teresa's calling,
Danielle saw a prostitution horror on national television. She's not
(07:32):
thinking about the fact that Andy Cohen's gonna unwatch what
happens live, have that song like that sound like prostitution
makes make rap songs out of it, and that it's
gonna be at the Bravocon. They're gonna have like a
reenactment of Prostitution War. There's a person that, no matter
what she's done in her life, has two daughters that
will see her as the prostitution War. That's like the
(07:54):
production I think more not that Tyre wasn't part of it.
It was her show, but I'm not even doing I
don't know Tyra Banks, And all I'm saying is just interesting.
The machine, it's a toxic machine where the ratings are
by any means necessary ratings, right any it does not
matter what it takes to get there. And you're right
about the entertainment industry. And now it's probably scario because
(08:18):
you know, people don't watch as much because they're watching
an on their phone.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
What do you think of all that I said? I
may'd be wrong. I want to hear because I didn't
watch the show that much. The audience takes the drug
and they're addicted. You know, you know John Ham and
very famous people go on watch Rapids live and last
at these housewives shows that I was part of that
like do ruin some people's lives, not everybody's, but there
are a lot of casualties from these shows. And you're
(08:43):
you know, yes, I agree.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
I went into post production on a show with Antonio
Sopato Junior called Maya, Antonio and VH One because I
wanted to learn the ends and outs and I wanted
to be able to do post production work. And I did,
and I helped vilify I wanted the contestants. Sure, she
was kind of a villain, but I might have tweaked
it a little bit to make her look worse. And
(09:07):
I'll never forget it was the premiere party or the
rap party. She came up to me and she was
upset and she's like, you understand more than anyone what
they can do to you. And I felt like the
most rotten, soulless human being on earth. And I tapped
out of post production. I never did it again, because
I'm like, wow, man, I just jumped right into the machine.
(09:29):
And I was so eager to please the executive producers
and stuff like, look, I'm a hard worker. I'm more
than just talent. I can actually work on a show.
I have nothing to do with and be bad ass
that I was helping, you know, Frank and bite conversations
to make them worse than what they were, and I
was the asshole.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Here's the problem. You put me on the Sports Illustrated show.
You give me direction, you tell me you have fun.
You go out there, you be yourself. I went out there.
I danced like I was in my own bathroom. I
understood the assignment. And even in lorel when I wear
giraffes shoes and I walked down like a giraffe like
they said, you do what you want to do. I said, Okay.
My point is I show up on time and I
(10:24):
always land it whatever it is, or I don't go.
So you go on reality television. I'm on the housewise,
I'm there to make shit happen. Other people are supposed
to be there for the same reason. If you're Tinsley Mortimer,
a very lovely, sweet girl, you get caught in the
crossfire of what we're doing in the goal of the show.
Get the fuck out of the way. You shouldn't be here.
Then we're you know, we're here to kill people. So
(10:44):
that's the problem. That was what the nature of the
Beast was the beast was create a show, make ratings,
make drama. That's what HEDI do. That's what Spencer did,
That's what you know. So it's really the responsibility is
the teacher has to have some control over the classroom totally.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
And that's why when people are like, well, aren't you
mad at Tyra, I'm like, no, Tyra was a snake
and a pit of vipers that learned how to survive exactly,
So why would I be mad at her? For literally
her entire life since she was like fourteen, she was
in modeling, which is the viper pit of all viper pits.
(11:21):
She is a product of her entire life, and I'm
like whatever, Like she's just trying to breathe and live.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
So period. Yeah, so you and also, you know, business
is hard and being an entertainment person, being a talent
and being a business person, being a creative and a
business person is not easy. I mean, if you listen
to Susan Powder talk about the fact that she sold
it was three hundred million dollars and she's an uber
driver because you're listening to people around you, it's the
(11:50):
game is fast, so it's like we're doing this, we're
doing that that sounds good. You don't know where to go.
And the person who says that saying that they're going
to take care of you and handle it. You just
want someone to handle it, so you sign up with
someone and then they you know, it's what happens to
the boy band. So you never made any money? Like
did you ever make any money? Like what happened? And
what do you do for a living?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I mean I made enough money to pay Los Angeles bills.
Like I was living in a shitty one bedroom apartment
in Hancock Part that was twenty three one hundred dollars
a month and it was like a closet, you know
what I mean. So I made enough to survive. But
I've never been like rich, and I'm cool with that,
(12:30):
Like I'm totally fine. So when I was thirty two
years old, I was tired of being touted as a
sex symbol. And I met my now husband, who's a
good old Kentucky boy gentleman, and I'm like, I want
to have a normal life with a guy that doesn't
treat me as a trophy, who like values me and
(12:50):
not covets me, but uh protects me and doesn't want
me to be seeking the validation of men and like
sexy inser posts and stuff. I was just tired of
that for me.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
So, so you're soul crushing, you're warning Yeah, no, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
When I was young, and I remember my management and
everybody was like, why are you acting like you're seventy
years old? You have a solid ten more years to earn,
And I'm like, yeah, but I'd feel like I'm gonna
be losing my soul. So I said no to a
whole bunch of stuff. And I actually lost my apartment
at thirty two years old, and my husband had me
(13:30):
move in with them because like, I hit rock bottom
because I was saying no to crap I didn't want
to do because I just didn't want to feel exploited anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
I get it, I yeah, but when you jump, you fly.
When you decide who you are and what you don't
want to do, that was me leaving Housewise, my whole
life changed after I thought I was like sort of
semi retiring and only gonna do this podcast at my
philanthropy and the things that caught me appearances that come
out of living in truth and walking out. I ended
up creating this career which is awesome, crazy, but I
(14:01):
wasn't even I didn't even try. And now I am
leaning into it, but it's because of the truth of it.
If I was like trying to be the last one
on the house Lives noticed to take the big check,
I was getting a lot of money. I would have
been my soul would have been crushed. And while HSN
is great, I didn't like doing it. I've never, once
I've been somewhat successful, done anything that I don't feel
(14:24):
good about doing. I don't like if I only do
I feel I don't do it no matter what it is.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, and basically I've been offered like reality TV show
jobs at sure there's a paycheck, and yeah I could
really use that money, but at what costs? So I
just said no. And then like a few years later,
I was like, what am I going to do with myself?
I thought I was going to be a personal trainer,
But what I found after certifying is just a bunch
(14:50):
of dudes that wanted to train with me, which I
didn't find appropriate. Like me and my husband like, that's
that's asking for trouble. I wouldn't feel good if a
bunch of checks just wanted to train with my husband Ja,
so I was like, this can't be for me. So
one day I had a myomectomy. I had a benign
tumor on mac. I had that, yeah, so they had
(15:10):
to take it out. And while I was high on percoset,
I watched Edward Scissorhands and I saw Peg the Avon Lady,
and high as a kite, I guess I was like,
Avon's still around, and I signed up to sell it.
I didn't remember, and the kitch showed up at my
house and I was like, well, I have nothing else
to do. And I thought I was going to make
fun of it and like do reviews about how much
(15:32):
it sucks ass, and then I ended up just loving
it and I started selling it. So it's funny. People
are like, what do you want to do, and I'm like,
I just want to be the best save On Lady
on Earth. That's what I'm going to do. And people
laugh and I'm like, laugh it up, bitch, like I'm
having a good time.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Avon's great. I saw their recent line. They sent me
their recent line of all like the vitamin C and
like the packaging is amazing. This stuff is good. But
I would imagine you could make. I think you're laughing
because you were actually making decent money, like good money
selling it.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
I was, I was until a few years ago when
the economy just tanked into the ground. Like it's been
a struggle. I'm trying to rebuild my little Avon empire.
I'm not the top of Avon lady anymore. I'm getting
my ass handed to me, and I think that's awesome.
But wait, but did Avon reach out to you after
your article. I'd imagine it wouldn't. Well no, I mean
(16:24):
we know each other like they know me. I know them.
I'm in an independent rep basically, so I'm like, I
don't speak for them, Thank God for them, the poor fuckers,
like if I was their mouthpiece. But yeah, I just
I just want to sell Avan, dude, and live in
the mountains and tell everyone in Hollywood to go fuck themselves,
(16:48):
not you. That's how I feel.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
No wonder you said yes it did. Podcast. I think
I still have a podcast. It's what I think you
are very do. I like the way you speak, your
very articulate, and like your thoughts that you're super polarizing
an edgy but like make perfect sense. I think you
should have like a really I think you should have
like an reverend podcast.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
We'll see. I guess what. I like to call it
decompressing from narcissistic traits, because my therapist said I wasn't
a narcissist to go in there to be like, oh
my god, I don't want to be a narcissist. She's like, well,
then you're not, because no narcissist gives a shit about
being a narcissist. But I feel like, I don't know,
I don't I'm not chasing the dragon anymore of like relevancy.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
No, I got it. I mean as a self expression,
I don't do. I'm in a bathing suit, wet from
the ocean. I just sat there for you. Oh, Like
I'm excited to talk to her. When I talk about nothing,
it does way better than when I talk to like
a big time celebrity, Like the people just want to
hear people express themselves, and you seem very honest.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
So I feel like, well, I kind of like this,
meaning like you don't have like a whole bunch of
fucking like stage and bullshit. Like that's so much better
I think, and life like you could do that.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I think that's what I'm saying, you don't have feel
like it doesn't have to be anything, you should do
it yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
And why do I feel like no one would give
a fuck?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Though you never know. If twenty people listen and give
a fuck, maybe after this they'll give a fuck. But
we'll find out. You ask my team what the people
in the comments said. Guys in the comments, do you
like this? And do you give a fuck? Okay, so
what do you think about modeling now? Like? What is modeling?
So you go out like, so I didn't understand. I thought,
(18:38):
let's use sports ollsced as an example. Let's talk about
Victoria's Secret, and let's talk about you know what modeling
is now. So now you have Kendall Jenner, Gigi Hadid
and people who and and Lisa Brenna's daughters, and there's
a lot of it's got it's got nepo baby to it,
which I call my daughter the nepo baby because you've
got Lisa Brenna's daughters. And I don't believe that without
(18:59):
that sort of platform, or Gigi and Bella and the
mom's platform, I believe it has to contribute. And maybe
it doesn't, but it has to. And so I'm growing
up in Beverly Hills. And then also like presumably in
different areas of modeling and brands hiring models, they're hiring
Instagram models or social media models because they have a following.
(19:21):
So there's like there's so many different roads in now
and then now there's more inclusivity, and so at Sports
Illustrated this weekend, I was asking the different women like
I didn't understand the process. So, like I said to
this girl at this club, I said, so, like, and
how long have you been doing this? And she's like,
I auditioned for five years and I finally got it.
And I'm like, You're like, are you a model? Like
(19:41):
model to begin with? She's like, no, I'm a fitness
My mom is Denise Austin, and I'm a I teach
videos and I do like fitness and diet like eating coach.
I go oh, And I was like, oh, so you're
like quote unquote a regular person that auditioned. And then
there was another woman I think it's Tonday and she's
a peloton and str so I didn't understand like the way.
(20:02):
And another woman said at forty years old, she got it.
So that's like a very unique way that these women
are saying, like, I'm a model, So like I always
say I'm a super model, I think I actually am
now because if the girl who's the fitness person and whatever,
I'm a model too.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Now you know it's depending on the household name. So
I guess you could coin yourself that Janis Dickinson just
told everyone choose the world's first supermodel, and now that's
how everyone knows there. So just own it, say it
and make it so right.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
But I mean it's because when I was growing up,
like you had to be. Kate Moss was disruptive because
she was five seven, Like that was disruptive. Like that
was like you had to be. There was a wool,
you had to be over five to nine.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
None of this would have happened in my day. I'll
tell you. I've sat in Wilhelmina Models during the open
calls waiting for my you know, sheet of where I
was going to do go season the day, and I
would hear the agents talking about girls. If you came
in there and notice filler in your face or plastic surgery, goodbye.
They wanted to wow natural only. So I would say
(21:07):
ninety percent of the people modeling today when you have
to remember Christy Turlington, Naomi Campbell, Nikki Taylor, Cindy Crawford Day. Yeah,
these weren't faces that were touched by science. This was
natural and like Christy Turlington, Stephanie Seymour, they had little
quirks that worked from like a little wonk to the
(21:30):
eye but in the cutest way.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Well Inton had his face between her tea.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yes, So it was like elitists like they wanted natural
goddesses that looked like an alien. Beam them down and
they would take no less.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
So if you get but the reason I get that
is because Lebron has a god given talent. Yes he's
worked on it, but he has a god given talent.
So what I guess, what I'm saying is what I'm
little girl, you know who is think she's overweight or
not like traditionally thin or short or broken out or
(22:08):
has a birthmark in her face, says I want to
be a model? What is she saying she wants to be?
What is a model? Now? Because I don't even necessarily
have a problem with the fact that they were all
aliens that were stunning, because that Lebron's an alien too,
and there's nothing wrong with that, like, it's just what
it is. A jockey. You're born shorter. You cannot be
a six foot jockey in the in the in the
(22:29):
Kentucky Derby.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
So I'm still yeah, Well, it's like if if in
the industry becomes something anyone can do, then as you're saying,
what is it anymore, like if anyone could be an
NFL player, if anyone could be in the NBA, Like
if I can maybe hit one basket out of a
whole game because God blessed me with that one basket
(22:50):
and then I sucked the rest of the time. Like
I don't know anymore.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Pat, do you tell your daughter, yes you can be
a model, because what is she think she wants to be?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
What is famous? Just famous? I think relevant? Chasing the
dragon of that fifteen minutes of glory, I think. But
I mean, honestly, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
But but as Sports Illustrated swimsu model, I can tell
you now what that is and what that is now
because I was there and I was shocked and you
would be shocked by it. I was back. So this
is my experience. I come in. I don't know. I
know there's a magazine that every year I think it
was in February, would have all these gorgeous women, and
I remember Kathy Island was also disruptive because she was
(23:36):
super like forty like, and they were pushing the envelope
with different types like then I guess later I think
it was Kate Upton and she was more curvy, and
I was like, wait, wow, that wasn't what we grew
up with, the model And so they started pushing the envelope.
But then years later you'd see like other people and
I never understood, like what I just wasn't. It just wasn't.
I wasn't the audience for I don't understand it. So
(23:58):
now I'm there and I'm backstage, and I think, like
everyone's what I used to think was a model, Like
there's a swimsuit model. So I think everybody's gonna be
five nine, five ten and blonde and sin and look
like everybody's gonna look the same. So I'm like, we, oh,
we you're you're sport you're a peloton. Oh. So I'm
(24:19):
like everyone there was so into themselves in the best
possible way, like like it was contagious. It was like
it was the embodiment of like I love my body,
I love my ass, I love my curves, I love
my lines, I love my my cell like and it
was like they picked women, but who could rock something? Like?
(24:40):
Who could rock something despite not being traditionally tall shorts,
sin whatever you're supposed.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I think it works for lingerie and bikinis, but I'll
tell you, as someone who used to be like, oh,
like someone shorter could model like a beautiful evening gown,
it's harder to model things as not a five to
eleven person because all of a sudden, the instead of
(25:08):
the dress wearing the model and the dress being on display,
it becomes about the model and not the dress. Now
with bikinis you want to and lingerie you want to
show it on bodies to you know, show women you're
gonna look good. But I'll tell you that I don't
think certain clothes look good on someone who's five foot
(25:29):
five walking down a runway because I stop looking at
the clothes and I start looking at the girl.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
That brings it back. So being a model originally was
the people that were chosen to highlight the clothes because
of the sizes, like the samples. So right, okay, so
make sense. And these women are showcasing all of this swomen,
different body taste. I loved it, and I think they
did an amazing job of bringing us to twenty twenty
(26:10):
five without it being performative and girl Boss and BS
where those people go backstage were like there to help
you succeed. The girls wanted me to win and do
better than them, Like I never saw anything like it.
It's the opposite of what you experienced. Like there are
these girls like, no, you're not going to tip your
hat at the end. You know why you're getting that
fucking money shot. Your body is tea. You stopped there,
(26:31):
that's your money, Like, that's what the girls who are there.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I'm jealous. You guys actually looked like you had fun.
We were modeling for me was not fun and you
didn't get to walk down the runway having a good time.
You were expected to do a certain thing.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Oh and it was competitive. This was like the opposite.
This was shocking more than the show itself. That was
what I thought was a beautiful thing for my daughter
who's fifteen now, and her body came in and she's
not used to this spy and she's got a woman's spot,
Like for women that like that to be like no,
you own that body that you were given, like I
just you like they I'm fifty four, they were. Most
(27:10):
of the girls were in her twenties, so it was
like it was very It's great that I'm talking to
you right now after this experience. It's like poetic because
it was the opposite of what you experienced. To be honest,
would that be more opposite of what you experienced on
America's next topic.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I think it's awesome. And I've always been of the
belief that when it comes to lingerie and bikinis that
you should show a piloth of different body shapes and
how these garments are gonna make them look you know
what I mean?
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah, make true too.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
That makes sense because these two garments are all about
the body and accentuating it. So when you would put
rail thin chicks in it, like I've I've always had boobs,
except for now because I had an X plant. Let's
not get into that. I lost a lot of my
natural breast, But prior to that one, it's my real
sea cup boobies. I always had boobs. So i'd see
(27:59):
models in with no chest, I'm like, oh, I'll buy that,
and I'd get it and then I'd look obscene because
it was like all cleavage everywhere, and I was like,
that's not how she looked. Damn it.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Well, let's talk about that going into swimsuit season, which
is such an insecure time for people walking into a dressroom.
I want to say this. I am the person I
have never put a song on in my entire life,
and I wear mostly one pieces now because I just do.
I because I feel in my mind a construct, like
I'm looking like that desperate older woman trying to cling
(28:32):
on and wear a bikini. My best friend's like, I
don't know why with your body you're not wearing bikinis.
I'm like, I don't know. I just like the elegance
of it and the saying I know my age and
I know where I am, et cetera. So let's park
that because I do like like that, and that is
part of who I am, where I would never put
on a thong. That's how I feel, right, I agree
with you. So I have a certain construct about who
(28:53):
should wear what, including myself. After this show, I thought
of that there was a bathing sit they gave us
that was a thong one piece. I was gonna wear it. Today,
not because like I'm trying to show up. I was
just going on my beach walk. I was gonna wear
it because like I wasn't gonna fucking wear the thong
because I did the show and I had picked my
two beating suits, and I said to the editor in
chief the one of the ones who was the one piece, like, go,
(29:14):
I like that to one piece because I still know
that I'm a mom and I know how old I am.
Whatever I say, all this bullshit that I don't know
is bullshit. Yet I'm in the dressing room and the
woman who one of the women who works there, her
hand comes in and I'm trying bathings to son after
just for fun, we've already picked the two and I go,
is this and she's like, yup, And it's a thong
like but not a thong, like a literal piece of
(29:36):
string up your house string. Yeah exactly, that's the difference.
So so I go, I go okay, and I'm laughing
because it's a joke. And I put it on and
I start to put the top on it. I'm like,
wait what And I come out and that's when they're like,
we're giving this bitch a third look. Because we all
I don't think any of us thought, and I was like, okay.
And when I was at that show, there were evy
(30:00):
girls rocking little bikinis, and I thought it looked great.
But I would never have if I was shopping with
those girls, I wouldn't have suggested that they put those
on because of the constructs that we've had. And I
swear after that show, I thought, like every freaking girl
and every size wearing a bikini, wear whatever you want.
It felt they really landed for me. Was I have
(30:20):
a different feeling about it now.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
You know what's funny is one, I haven't more on
a song and so long, i'd be terrified that all
I would do is pick my butt publicly because I
would feel something that's a functional problem.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
And then two, I'm so over being looked at in
that way that I would just cover my ass because
I don't want anyone to look at me.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
No, And I would understand if someone wasn't, I guess
objectified the way I was for that long. And they're
like feeling themselves now that they'd want to get a
little taste of that. The thing is I ate from
that table. It's not that good. I'm good, I'm over it.
I could wear it.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
You had an identity that was based on showing your look.
So that's traatic and that makes a perfect sense to me. Yeah.
I just mean, as I raised a fifteen year old daughter,
I'm thinking of things completely differently, and I just if
I can only give her one thing, it would be
like that she would be backstage with me and like
walking down that runway to like see how those girls
(31:23):
like love their body whatever it is, Like it was
just so contagious and so I like that message. And
I just think that there's part of this in society
that's changed about let's say modeling, which you can speak
to that I like this part that I just experienced
because it was like it's positive for women.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, no, I have to agree. And again, when we're
purchasing something that's supposed to accentuate our bodies and like
the best of ways where you're like half naked, it's
nice to see all different body types showing you what
this stuff will look like on your body, as opposed
to this inhuman alien that's been shot down from the
(32:02):
planet Zultron with this perfect body that you know none
of us can obtain. Or we don't have Like if
you have hips, you want to see somebody in something
that has some hips to see what that's going to
look like on you. That's just how I feel.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
But also to the point of the era that you
came up in, of being a vapid, vacant lookoff and
gazed and don't have fun and don't dance, and you're
not human, You're a hangar, I would say, honestly speaking
with the long hair I had and the glazel over
my body and the bathing suits and a song. I
just walked down that runway like in some version where
(32:38):
I rocked it as like a model, Like just walking,
what are you doing to costume trying to be a model?
I was myself having fun. Like what I looked like
was like accentuating it. But I was genuinely being myself
and I was happy. And I think the reason it's
landing for all these women with all these body types
(32:58):
that are not part of the content, thinking it should
be they walk I saw their personalities first. I think
people saw me being alive and happy first, and everything
else came together. I think it all it's about being happy,
and you were miserable doing what you were doing, and
everybody on America's Top Model seems to have been miserable,
and everybody here's modeling here was funny.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
It's personality driven now, like influencers and all this stuff,
it's all personality driven. I was told in modeling that
I need to tone it the fuck down, that it's
not about me or who I am, just shut the
fuck up and do my job. And that's when I
went into more reality TV and I went and did
the Surreal Life because I was like, fine, I'll go
(33:40):
and make money being who I am since you people
think I need to shut the f up and stop
being made like. I would be on sets with a
bunch of models that they just wouldn't speak. It'd just
be like sitting there and getting their makeup done, and
I'm like, man, this is some bullshit, oh ladies, and
everyone's looking at me like what. Or if a photographer
(34:01):
was gross, I'd just call them out on it right there.
I'd be like, bro, like what are you doing? And
everyone's like, oh, I can't believe you said, And I'm
like what is this?
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Like what am I in? Okay? So that's what I
think the real difference is. That's what I think, and
I actually think fashion should take a note out of
this book. So here's what I think. Like, I do
not I can afford anything I want. I don't have
a stylist. Now, I think I dress fairly well. If
I want to go out to something, I think I
(34:28):
can rock something. I always create something in my mind
creatively about where I'm going to be, what I want
to wear, what I want to put it with, how
I want to do my hair, like I come up
with a little thing, you know, and not long like
I'll just and I always shot my own closet. So
now people who get invited to the met Gala, oh
or fashion icons are people whose stylists choose their entire
(34:50):
look head to toe. Now a little assistance is something
calling a designer's one thing. But there are people who
do not dress or seem anything like what they used
to look like because they are now dressed as a
stylist like painting. And I don't think that that's fashion.
And what's interesting is that Anna Wintour herself has basically said,
and so Tom Ford talked about it too, that he
(35:13):
used to like what the mcalle used to be versus
like now it's like a theatrical performance, yes, which I
do get. I get that because it's expressive and Rihanna
comes out and it's drama. I get that. But the
people whose personal fashion style is based on a stylust
that end up getting invited as a result of that,
to me, that doesn't make any sense because it's not
(35:34):
that person, you know.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
It's it's comic con for famous people where they all
cosplay things that they're not. That's what I see. It's
a bunch of cos players that are famous dressing up
as characters that they are not. And I mean, I
agree with you. I a mess when people would wear
shit that spoke to who they were and now it's
(35:59):
just like very hunger games.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
And I think fashion should make the adjustment that modeling
has into it being someone's personal style and you get
to see what they would do, like what the person
chooses on their own, not that they go hire someone.
That should be That should be illegal, like the way
you know what I mean, that should be like you
get you get points out for that, like Anna, because
Anna Wintour doesn't dress like that. She herself wears the
(36:25):
same couple of episodes and she's got a personal style
that is hers. It's timeless, it's what her style is.
And so she has said before someone should dress in
a way to speaks to them, like she's been quoted.
I don't know what the exact quote is or many times,
but like that, it's natural to them. So it's it's contradictory.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Yeah, I think everyone's just turned into a stage performer.
It's like Steven Tyler and money wears on stage like
no one. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
I think.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I always hated the word influencer, but I guess it's
the modern day reality stars. People on social media. They
are stealing the thunder from celebrities because celebrities are still
faking everything and they don't know who they are inside,
and then the people on social media know who they are.
It's being projected out there and people are liking what
(37:15):
they're selling and buying into it. So I think people
look at stuff like the Matt Gala and you just
see a sea of people that aren't very self aware
or tapped into who they are or being told what
to like and do, and it's not working because people
like people are so tired of everything being fake. Filters
(37:36):
this that that you know, if you put yourself out
there just being you. They're like eating it up like
it's manna from heaven. They're so starved for it.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
That's what exactly. Yeah, you should have a pot. Yeah exactly.
That's exactly how I feel. And that's exactly where the
universe met me where I am because that's what I've
always been and I think that that's that's that's how
citizen's journalism is started. That's my mainstream celebrities with the
script and the gloss and the shine. It's not working
because you can't pr your way out of life anymore.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Unless your Tom Cruise is working for Tom.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Well, he has very specific roles and he doesn't talk
that much about other things besides the roles and the work.
So yeah, that's exactly. Well. Wow, I could talk to
you forever. I think you're amazing. So this was thank
you a great.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Solversation, fellow reality og.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yes, very very good to talk to you. My instincts
were right about talking to you. I like you a lot.
I think you're really smart and very honest. So saying
I hope to speak to you again, I hope Avon
calls you and gets you involved in a bigger way
that's what I'm manifesting for you, and I hope you
do a little like garage band podcast for you. For
anyone else, I just like, just talk to a couple
(38:52):
of people. I don't know. I just think you should.
That's what I think. It's it doesn't matter what I think,
but it matters what you think. So it's so nice
talking to you and meeting you, and hope.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
You man you too. Bye Lady.
Host
Bethenny Frankel
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