July 27, 2023 • 49 mins
In this week's episode of Katie’s Crib, we are joined by Sara Olsher, the founder of Mighty + Bright. The mother and cancer survivor shares her joinery of developing a company that helps families through hard things like divorce, cancer, and other major changes (using calendars, daily charts and books).
Sara first explains that led her to start her company, opening up about her personal experiences with divorce and cancer. She then goes into the creation of her coparenting calendars, and how it helped her daughter understand family adjustments after divorce.
The illustrator even elaborates how she first tried to explain her cancer diagnosis to her daughter, and how her mission to find an appropriate book to help with the conversation influenced her to develop additional content on general difficult conversations.
Plus, are you a parent who is nervous about discussing divorce or a parent's illness with your children? Sara givers her insight on why it is important to disclose such info to your children in this special episode.
Executive Producers: Sandie Bailey, Alex Alcheh, Lauren Hohman, Tyler Klang & Gabrielle Collins
Producer & Editor: Casby Bias
Associate Producer: Akiya McKnight
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Storytelling is an important way of explaining things to kids
and having them be able to put their put themselves
in someone else's shoes, like a story about a dog dying,
et cetera, and the feelings that character had. But there's
there was a whole segment missing of this is what
it is, this is how it affects your life, this
(00:29):
is what it means to have cancer. And then later
some of these other books where kids are their mommy
has breast cancer. All the books were about breast cancer.
Was the other thing that really frustrated me. Oh, because
for the love of all things good and holy, people.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Come on people, good Lord.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I'm like, why must we make this breast cancer specific
or mommy specific? So all of my books apply to
any type of cancer. My divorce book, there's a version
for two moms and a version for two dads. I
want it so that people of all kinds can see themselves.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Hello, everybody, Welcome back to Katie's Crib. I was just
speaking with our guest today about when things are really
hard and you're parenting, and I have friends who have
been through this. I'm talking the real hard stuff like divorce, cancer,
school shootings. There's some real stuff that happens in parenting
(01:40):
on a personal level, like if your mom gets diagnosed
with a disease, if the parents are going through marital
things and are separating all of that stuff, how do
you deal so Mighty and Bright we have the founder here,
Sarah Oulsher. She is a writer and illustrator, speaker, and,
like I said, the founder of this incredible resource called
(02:05):
Mighty and Bright, which is a company that creates unique
book and calendar sets to bring clarity to kids about
confusing and hard situations. Sarah has worked hard to be
comfortable with the profoundly uncomfortable, and her work has been
featured in such platforms as Pop Sugar, Reader's Digest, The Mighty,
(02:25):
and Good Housekeeping. She has spoken in front of audiences
large and small about her own experiences of making major
life changes after divorce and cancer, and Sarah believes that
everyone has the resilience to overcome hardship and use those
lessons to make this world a better place. Brava, Sarah,
(02:46):
thank you so much for coming on Katie's Crib. I'm
so grateful for what you're doing. Can you start us
at the beginning, How did you start it? And what
gave you The idea for Mighty and Bright?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Started out of necessity. My daughter was two when I
went through a pretty brutal divorce and she was having
really bad anxiety and I had no idea what to do.
I think everybody kind of has their like go to
thing that they do when something's hard, Like you google
things which you probably shouldn't, you find books. For me,
(03:21):
I was like, I'm going to go to a therapist.
And my ex husband was like, what could a therapist
do to help a two year old? And I was like,
I don't know, but she is afraid of literally everything,
and so we're going to find out. And so I
found this really great therapist who opened my eyes to
the way you can communicate with small kids and basically
(03:43):
that they understand a lot more than we give them
credit for, and so most of us are just thinking, oh,
it's a little baby or it's a toddler, they're not
going to understand this, so we don't explain things. So
that was the main skill that I got from her.
But the thing that really changed every thing for me
was when she went on vacation and she pulled out
(04:03):
this like a construction paper calendar that she had made,
and she was showing how usually we see her on
this day, but we're not going to see her on
that day and instead we're going to see her on
this day. And I was like, why am I not
using this to show my daughter when she's going to
see her dad next? Because that was all she kept
(04:28):
what And So I had run an illustration business for
six years and I had these illustrations of our family,
and so I just split them apart and made them
into these little magnets and created the jankiest calendar on
the planet using like electrical tape.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Honey, that is not what they look like. Now when
you all listeners go to Mighty and Bright and you
can see all the calendars offered and all it's beautiful.
They are incredible for personal for gifts, for everything. They're amazing.
How did you start to unpack what exactly children need
in these challenging times? Was it from this therapist?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I actually have a background in psychology myself, which is problem.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
My gosh, you are, oh my goodness, you are the
perfect mass. It's weird.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
I don't know quite how, like life took me in
these turns that kind of all came together into creating
this thing that really needed to be there. But yeah,
so I've always really understood things like on a soul level,
like how what people need. But there's so much research
(05:39):
about specifically what kids need to cope and what they
need for creating a foundation of positive mental health. Like
all that research is there, and so I just dove
headfirst into it and thought, like, how is it that
we know all of these things, but there's nothing out
there that helps parents like actually implement it because as
(06:02):
a parent, like, we have one hundred billion things that
are going around in our heads all the time, and
it gets really overwhelming. And you were talking about school shootings.
All these things are really scary, and the more statistics
we hear, the more frozen we feel. And so what
I really wanted to do is basically create a roadmap
(06:23):
that made it easy for parents to understand what you
start with, what comes next, and really be able to
help their kids cope through this stuff because the truth is,
no matter how much we want to protect our kids
from every bad thing that's ever going to happen, life
is hard, and it is going to throw stuff at them.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
I had sort of a white picket fence, I guess
you could say childhood where I just really didn't experience
trauma out of an ordinary child's life. And when I
was eighteen, I was a freshman at NYU during World
Trade Center during nine to eleven, and I lived two
(07:07):
blocks away and saw it all happen. And I remember
my dad after he realized that I was safe and
we were together, he was hysterical crying because he was like,
I made it this far and had protected you from
seeing anything bad. And now, look, eighteen years is an
incredible feat to go. But I'm saying it's life is hard,
(07:31):
and your children will experience hard things no matter what,
and exactly like you say, it's going to be the
challenge of being a parent is figuring out how you
give your children these skills to cope and to move
through these things, like for yourself you went through. Can
you tell me about your divorce, let's start there, and
(07:51):
how you told your daughter and explain to her what
divorce was.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
That was kind of the beginning part of my realizing
and there were no resources out there.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Oh God, I can't even imagine, yes, yes, tell you know.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
She's twelve now. So this was ten years ago. I
created the first co parenting calendar. There was nothing out there,
and it was infuriating to me.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Explain to me what a co parenting calendar. Explain to
where I know what it is, but explain to your
listeners what a co parenting calendar is.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Okay, So I think the traditional thought of a co
parenting calendar are these apps that people use with their
co parent to figure out who's going to see the
kids on what day. But the thing that is really
missing is giving the kids their own co parenting calendar,
so their own visual schedule where they have little pictures
(08:43):
that show when they're going to see each parent, and
the kid needs to have ownership over it. It needs
to belong to them. It can't be part of this
like big command center that a lot of families have
because having the kid have ownership over it makes them
feel a sense of control. But I just can't even
explain how powerful it is. So that is what I
(09:06):
used to explain to her what divorce was once I
created this thing. My mistake was she was a year
and a half when we separated, and I didn't think
I needed to explain it to her. I didn't study
child development. Had I known how fascinating children were, that
would have one hundred percent been where I focused every
(09:26):
bit of my studies, because they're fascinating. But I didn't
understand just how much she understood.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
So at one and a half, you didn't say to her, like, what,
mommy and Daddy aren't we're not living together anymore, and
we both love you and you will spend time with me.
Make it fat, tell her the facts exactly of the deal.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
What I would do now, knowing that I know what
I know now, would be to say, we have one house. Now, Mommy, Daddy,
baby all live in the same house. But now Daddy
is going to have a house. Mommy is going to
have a house. So you can see mommy and daddy
at their own house.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Great, And here's the calendar right where, here's your little
picture that we put. These are the days you spend
at daddy's house, and these are the days you do
stay at mommy's house.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
The other thing that I think a lot of parents
think is, well, my kid doesn't have any concept of
time at that age, so how do you show them
a weekly calendar and have them understand it. And so
I created these little stickers that you can put on
the calendar so that they understand each day break basically
is a sleep so you can say it's two sleeps
(10:40):
until Daddy's house, it's two sleeps until this play date.
So kids of all ages can really benefit from it.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Oh, that's so great. Can you tell me about in
our listeners about your cancer story and how you told
your daughter what cancer was, how it was impacting you
and your daughter's mental health at the time.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah, so she was six. I was thirty four, and
I have a big family history of breast cancer and
was in an early detection program I really had to
fight for. And it was my first breast MRI that
was supposed to be a baseline. They were gonna this
(11:22):
is where we're at, so if there's any weird changes,
we'll no And it caught my cancer. I had four
inches of cancer in my left breast and I got
the diagnosis while I was alone on a radiology table.
And the first thing I thought was as parents, because
some pretty dark places, but when you're told you have cancer,
(11:45):
all I could see was my daughter's tearful face at
my funeral. I was just devastated because at the time,
her dad and I were not getting along. She didn't
want to spend time with him, and I was like,
what am I going to do? And so what I
really recommend to people who get a diagnosis like that
(12:06):
is don't talk to your kids until you know a
little bit more so that you can actually give them
some facts about what this means. But also don't wait
that long, because kids understand that something is going on,
and it's like they can sense the energy in the room,
and they will make up stories about what it is
(12:27):
that's going on, and usually they will come up with
a story in which it is all their fault that
you're mad at them or something's wrong. Luckily, with all
of the research that I had done about divorce, I
already knew a lot of this stuff.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
You knew that you had to talk to her about it,
not pretend in front of her that it wasn't happening, exactly,
know the facts to explain things in like a simple,
developmentally appropriate way. Tell me about doing that when.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Such order, what my go to was getting on Amazon
and buying a book to explain what cancer was. And
so I ordered probably six books, and I did not
like any of them. None of them explained what cancer was,
and I thought, this is like, again, kids understand more
(13:19):
than we give them credit for. We don't need these
weird analogies about like storms in your brain or like
you know, it complicates, confuses and scares them. So I
didn't use any of the books, and I basically just
explained to her really simply, our bodies are made up
of cells. They're like little teeny tiny building blocks. It's
(13:41):
like building with legos. But the cool thing about them
is that they can make new ones anytime they want to,
and so you just build forever and never stop, and
it's really cool. But sometimes a broken cell is made
and that broken cell doesn't know what its job is,
and the only thing no how to do is make
more and more copies of its own broken self. And
(14:05):
if there's enough of those broken cells together, they make
it hard for the body to do its job, for
the cells that are doing their jobs to work right.
Really clear, Yeah, so that's what I said to her.
And I said, so, what happened was we found some
of these broken guys, like in my breast, and so
we're going to have to take them out, and I
(14:27):
didn't need to go much further than that, because at
the time I thought that I had a very early
stage cancer. I thought all I was going to need
was surgery. I was going to have both my breasts
removed and reconstructed, which was a whole thing in and
of itself. So all I thought I needed to say
was they only found like a couple guys, So we're
(14:48):
just gonna cut them out and.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
It's going to be done, and Momy's gonna be okay.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Are you allowed to say things like that, Mommy's going
to be okay, don't worry, or you really stay away
from things like that.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
It depends on the situation. I in my case, I
felt pretty comfortable saying that, but if something changes, like
in my case it did. When I woke up from
my double mastectomy, it turned out it had it was
in my lymph nodes, and so I had to have chemo.
All I said to my daughter was they told me
that I only had one little guy, And it turns
(15:21):
out that one little guy made some friends and they
were going to go move to another part of my body,
and so to make sure that all of them are dead,
we're going to get some special medicine called chemo, And
then I explained to her, So what that means is
I am going to go into the doctor's office every
(15:42):
three weeks and they're going to give me this really
big medicine, and the medicine is going to make sure
that all of those guys die. The problem is some
of the healthy cells are also going to die, and
that means that my hair is probably going to fall out.
But I don't want you to worry about my hair
falling out, because it's gonna grow back. And when all
(16:03):
the medicine is done and so the good cells will
come back and the bad cells are dead.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
That was that did she have a very anxious response.
I know that you were dealing, I think you said,
and correct me if I'm wrong. That she was struggling
with some anxiety around the divorce stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, she had just generalized anxiety her whole life, and
so that was part of why I was so worried
about explaining this to her. But when I first told
her about the cancer, she came out of my bed
or her bedroom where I was telling her, and she
was like, Mommy told me, And my mom was like,
what did she tell? You, and she's like, she has something.
(16:46):
I don't remember what it was called, but it's little
and it's gonna be okay. So initially it was fine.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
I think things like this are so important when you
commit to a confident like I think Katie's Crib has
done this for me, and I hope that it's done
this for our listeners. And it's something that you're talking
about again, which is I know that it's important to
tell my kids hard things and good things and all
in between, and it's important to communicate with them in
(17:18):
a developmentally appropriate way. But I feel like the confidence
in that I know, even if it's hard to tell
them that I am doing the best choice that I
can as a mother by telling them and not keeping
it from them already, I feel like puts us leagues
(17:38):
ahead than our parents' generation and their generation before them.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
My aunt died from breast cancer at forty two. She
did not tell her children. They are still very upset
about that. It has affected our family in a way
that I just thought, never ever would I ever do
that to my children, And it also traumatized me because
(18:03):
I'm like my cousins all had to get married, have
their babies without their mom there. The likelihood is high
that I had the same type of cancer that killed her. Right,
but that's the difference between twenty seventeen and nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
That's right, that's right. Wait, hold on one second. I
just have someone at my door. Hold on, it's my child,
and I'm going to tell them to go away. Hold on.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Oh no, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Children. Okay, So how does the vocabulary change when you're
communicating with your child after you told them, told her
you have cancer, and now you tell her that I
just want to go back. So I think that vocabulary
is important. When you realized that it was going to
(19:02):
not be such an easy the easier fix that you
thought it was going to be, Like, did you say,
I have to let you know that the information has changed?
What did you say to her?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
I said, so in the time that it took for
me to have the surgery, and the first time that
they saw the picture, the little guys had moved and
they're made more And it turned out they were doing
that quickly, and so now they're gone. They got all
(19:33):
of them out, but they want to make sure that
because they're so tiny, they want to make sure any
of them are gone forever. As time goes on and
science changes and learns more things. The way that they're
looking at cancer is different now is even if you
have stage four cancer, which is cancer that has spread
(19:56):
and you will have it will be the thing that
kills you at some point, burn getting hit by a
truck or something that has been a death sentence in
years pasture and now they are looking at that more
of living with a chronic illness. People have lived for
twenty years with stage four, so it doesn't always mean
(20:19):
that's it for you. The way that I explain this,
because what I did from all of this explaining was
I wrote my first children's book about cancer.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Okay, congratulations, that's amazing, and on behalf of myself and
our listeners, thank you for doing that.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Thank you. But at the end, the way that I
explain metastatic disease is that some people will live with
cancer for the rest of their lives, and they will
keep going to the doctor, and they will have different
types of medicines, and they will always let you know
what is going on. You can trust your grown up
(20:58):
to tell you when something is going on. So we
have to be honest with ourselves and our kids that
sometimes things change, and that is a difficult thing for
most humans to deal with. Most of us don't like
change of any kind, but especially when somebody has told
you something is true and then it turns out to
(21:19):
not be true, and that's just rude. We just have
to be honest with our kids and say this is
what we thought, and unfortunately it turned out to be
something different or things have changed.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
How was your daughter's mental health at the time and
getting through I know we were touching on her anxiety,
but was she in therapy at the time. What tools?
I know you said you got books that were crap
you so you wrote your own. What tools did you
use to get her through your cancer treatments?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
I was really worried about her. She was acting relatively normal,
and I just thought there must be some kind of
like thing that she's processing inside that's going to come
out later and be just like really awful. But she
handled it a lot better than I ever expected, and
I think part of that was because I knew all
(22:14):
of these things about what helps prevent traumatic things from
being traumatic, and that is talking about it, showing your
kids what to expect. I created a whole calendar to
show her what to expect out of my treatment. This
is a day that I'm going to have chemo. This
is how I'm probably going to be feeling tired for
a few days. That helped a lot. The other thing
(22:37):
that really helped, which I never thought I would be
grateful to be divorced, but her dad remarried pretty quickly
after we divorced and they had a baby, and the
baby was born like before I was diagnosed, and so
he was a really great distraction for my daughter because
she was like, I have a brother, and so was
(23:00):
total gift and it completely changed our co parenting relationship
my having cancer. I just didn't have the energy to
deal with Wow, dramatic, interesting, And it made me realize
so much of these relationships that are just like difficult
or you're like butting heads is just letting go and
(23:21):
just saying you know what you do a you. I
don't have the energy to deal with you in your
like ways that you do things that's different than me.
I just can't.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So mommy's not going to feel her best self and
she might be very tired. Did she ever see you
very sick? Did she see you lose your hair? Were
those conversations that were had.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yes, so I actually involved her in the process. I
had long, red, curly hair that.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Was like, my so beautiful, it's so beautiful now, thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, I loved it, and so I knew it was
going to fall out, and I'd never had a short haircut.
So we went to a lot. My girlfriends were the
absolute best. They got me an appointment to have my
hair cut short and sassy, and my daughter and my
mom came to and each of them got a pink
stripe in their hair. And then when it started to
(24:14):
fall out, I let my daughter cut my hair, and
so I will tell you I took a video of
a time lapse of the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
There were times where I thought, for sure I should
not have given the six year old scissors. I was like,
she's gonna kill me. But hey, it was definitely a
memory I will never forget, and it helped her, I think,
feel like she was participating in something. We were laughing
about it. I think involving her as much as possible
(24:49):
was good. It's different based on different ages, So early
elementary school, younger kids they usually want to talk about it,
and adolescence. Depending on the kids some of them don't,
and that's okay too. So I think it's just a
matter of the ways that you make this easier for
kids is by understanding that they need to feel like
(25:12):
they can come to you with literally anything and you're
not going to get mad at them. They can ask
you any question, right, And that's why bringing in books,
bringing in the calendar, their physical reminders to the kid
that if they have any questions, you are open to
answering them. It's when things are quiet, it's when the
book is closed. It's when you make it so they
(25:35):
can't feel safe.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Or that you're not honest too. Like they know they
know when something's up, guys, they know they know, yes,
like done this morning. I'm on so little sleep because
we were at a premiere last night and I was
cranky and he's like, what's going on?
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Mom?
Speaker 1 (25:52):
You're so frustrated? You know what I mean? Even though
I don't not saying like, Mommy is on too little sleep.
So approaching your books, how are they different than the
stuff that you were not getting what you needed?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
So now I have nine books?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Please? Yeah, thank Sarah. That's awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
So the main difference in the books I have a
series called what About Me Books. The point of them
is to take hard conversations, explain them to kids as
far as what it is it's actually going on, but
then also explain how it affects the kid's life, because kids,
from a developmental point of view, the whole world revolves
(26:36):
around them, and they want to know what it means. Okay,
mommy is sick. Does that mean I'm going to be
left alone? What does that mean to me? And so
all of the books are like, this is what's happening,
now what about the kid? And there's a calendar, like
a drawing of a calendar in each one of the books,
and it says, this is how your day to day
(26:57):
is going to be affected by this hard thing, and
that is what makes them different.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Wow, that's so great. It's how it's related to the
kid and the kid's life. Yes, we don't take that
into consideration. That's really smart.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Storytelling is an important way of explaining things to kids
and having them be able to put their put themselves
in someone else's shoes, like a story about a dog dying,
et cetera, and the feelings that character had. But there's
there was a whole segment missing of this is what
it is, this is how it affects your life, This
(27:33):
is what it means to have cancer. And then later
some of these other books where kids are their mommy
has breast cancer. All the books were about breast cancer.
Was the other thing that really frustrated me, because, for
the love of all things good and holy, people.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Come on people, good Lord.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
I'm like, why must we make this breast cancer specific
or mommy specific? So all of my books apply to
any type of cancer. My divorce books, there's a version
for two moms and a version for two dads. I
want it so that people of all kinds can see themselves.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Feel represented, and they see themselves in the book, and
it's their pathway into these hard, difficult conversations with our children.
After the separation your husband, the divorce is final, you
(28:35):
moved out in separate houses. How did she deal with that?
And then let's talk about how did she deal once
you were through the chemotherapy rounds.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yeah, I think it becomes your new normal, and it's
a matter of making that new normal as normal as possible.
That's all life is, change up, change after change. So
it just became a new normal where that is what
we talk about that is how things are there with
(29:10):
regards to the divorce. I think there it's grieving, and
I think I think if we I listened to your
episode with Teresa Caputo and she was.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Told, my goodness, my girl, I love her.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yes, but one of the things that she was talking
about is these everyday losses. That is a big part
of what I do is trying to explain to parents
that anytime there's a change, it's grief. For kids, grief
is when anything is taken away from you without your consent,
and for kids, so much happens to them and feels
(29:50):
out of their control. If we have empathy for our
kids and think if someone had died, is this how
we would be treating our kids? Would be be fresh
straight at them for talking about their other parent who
has died. Would we want them to just get over it? No,
we would want them to feel supported. We would want
(30:10):
them to know that no matter what, they are loved.
We would want them to know that if they are upset,
they can get a hug. The problem is balancing that
with our own mental health, because when kids are going
through something difficult, the whole family is going through something difficult.
And parents are on a good day at capacity, and
(30:32):
so how do we balance these two things right? And
the answer for my family is freaking screen time. And
if I hear one more ep in person tell me
screen time is terrible, I'm screw you. I need this
going through a freaking divorce and I need to go
into my bedroom and just breathe for a fricking minute.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I get it. I think the pandemic I'm hoping changed
things in that when we all sort of hit this
like this stop and we were like, oh my god,
if we have to put on the television. And yet
still you're not wrong. I still feel bad about it.
It's so stupid.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I was talking to a therapist who deal specifically with
postpartum moms and she's like, show me the study that
says screen time is worse for kids than a parent
with poor mental health.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Oh, it's not. And also Mike Charlie, Yeah, and yeah, yeah, Mike,
drop leave it right there. Emily Ostur, who has been
on this podcast and only deals with things in terms
of statistics and facts, it's not true about screen time
at all, But you still feel bad about it because
mob guilt is a real thing. What I'm getting and
correct me if I'm wrong. What I'm getting from both
(31:47):
your divorce experience and your cancer experience is that your
daughter did Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yes, she she does grieve still over our families said
suation mostly, and I think putting her in situations where
she wasn't the only one is really helpful. Knowing other
kids of divorce so she's not the only one, knowing
other kids who have a parent with cancer, so that
(32:17):
she isn't the only one, and she feels that sense
of community is really important. And then I also think
all the research that I did about mental health when
we hit the pandemic was when I started to realize
just how little resources there were out there for kids.
And really it has always been difficult to find a
(32:37):
child therapist. But I also think parents don't feel capable
to handle a lot of things on their own, and
so I think they don't really realize how much they
can actually help. I think we think a therapist has
a degree, and so they're going to be able to
do things that we can't. And in some cases that
(32:59):
is true. We don't have the skills. So if there's
like a crisis situation, obviously getting a professional to help
us really important, but like to know that your parent
child relationship, like you need to work on this stuff,
these skills in addition to therapy or while you're on
the waiting list. It is up to parents to teach
(33:21):
these skills to their kids. Because a pandemic is a
very hard thing.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
It's another tough thing to talk on that list of
like tough things that we need to talk about with
our children. Why are books such a great way in.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Kids learn by repetition and they learn from visual images.
And the great thing about a book is it's there
and it doesn't change every time you read it. It's
the same. We might explain a topic and say it
slightly differently each time, and that.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Can be confused, amusing, It's sure.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Having that initial conversation is really good and then having
the book to back it up so that you can
constantly read it. How many of us have a kid
who chose like a favorite book and then we were
just like so done with it. There's a book from
my daughter's childhood, she was like three, she could recite
the whole freakin thing.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Sure, of course, of course that's how much you read it? Yes, exactly, absolutely,
it's absolutely I think it's such a such a great
way in two because if you are a person that
comes from a family where hard things were not discussed,
you feel out of practice and that you literally don't
have the vocabulary. You don't even know how or what
(34:43):
to say. And so by using the book, like we've
done tons of topics in this podcast on race or
sex or things like that, and I come from a
family that never talked about race, and it was important
to me to find the right books so I could
myself with the correct vocabulary to talk about race to
(35:04):
my kids because I didn't know. And similarly, like I
wouldn't know the words to say if I got a
cancer diagnosis or my husband and I were facing divorce,
Like and to go back to this, I know we
touched on a little bit. So your books are different
than the crap that was out of there.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Also, the illustrations were freaking terrifying. There was one that
was talking about going to the hospital. I swear to
you the doctor looked like possessed was.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
A freak night. Okay, So like the illas, because you
have an illustrative background, you were very particular on what
the pictures look like. Yeah, and then it always goes
back to how it affects the kid because they are
the center of their world at this time in their life.
That's that we know is true. So now let's get
(35:57):
into the calendars you sell. I love this idea. I
think it's so smart. My son is constantly he feels
ill at not at ease if he doesn't know who's
picking him up, who's dropping him off, those sorts of things.
And when I was doing research on you, I was like,
oh my god, why have I never put up a
(36:18):
calendar of the week with little So I bought one.
How did the calendar idea come up?
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Again?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
It was the therapist telling me that she telling my
daughter she was going on vacation, and so then I
just started doing research. Initially I had created one that
showed two weeks at a time, and then as I
am like really anal about making my house pretty and
(36:46):
so I didn't want one of these like really ugly
ass calendars. They're so fucking oh my god, I hate
primary colors. No, and so I was trying to make
it cuter and cuter as it had different iteration, and
realized when I started creating one for children with cancer
that the doctors and the childlife specialists are the people
(37:11):
that work with the children in hospitals. They only want
to show the kids one week at a time because
depending on the situation, it can be really overwhelming for
a kid multiple weeks. And the added benefit of it
was it created a perpetual calendar, so you could buy
(37:31):
like two three weeks at a time, and when you
get to the bottom, you erase that one and move
it to the top, so it's always up to date.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
So there were a bunch of reasons why I made
it one week at a time, and they're useful for
kids of all ages. My daughter is twelve has been
using this since she was two.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Wow, Sarah.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Yeah, I really wanted to make sure that it was sturdy.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
We know kids, Yeah, durable. Yeah, how can we use
your products to help? Like I had just touched on,
but with other hard topics like school shootings, we talked
about black lives matter, death, Yeah, smaller things. I mean,
obviously school shootings, black lives matter, these are big things.
(38:24):
But it was huge in my house when we had
to put my dog down like that was my child,
my four year old's first experience with death and brought
up a lot of death questions, and so how do
your products work with other hard topics.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Basically, structure is the first like visual structure is the
first thing that you need in order to help kids
cope every difficult thing that happens. The recommendation is always
stick to a routine as much as you possibly can,
and that's because it creates a content that helps children
(39:02):
feel safe when things are crazy. And it's like when
take divorce for example, like don't you're going from one
house to the next, but every day begins and ends
with sleep. Things are changing, but some things are the same.
And the more that you can show kids what their
routine is going to look like, the more that you
(39:24):
can predict and show them their lives, the less anxiety
they're going to feel. So, even if it has nothing
to do with our political climate or death or whatever,
the hard thing is, just showing them what to expect
out of their day to day is going to help
them cope and make them feel safer.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Love it. What are three things needed for kids to
get through challenging times?
Speaker 2 (39:52):
One thing that I when I heard the statistic, it
made my hearts sink. They need one loving adult one
So if you are going through a terrible divorce and
your ex is a crazy person. Know that your kids
need one loving, stable adult. So if you can be
that person for your kid that they need. Yep, so
(40:14):
one loving adult who values a parent child relationship. They
need structure, routines, They need to know what to expect
out of their lives, and they need to know that
they can come to you with anything.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
That's it. I feel like if we all just did that,
the world would be a better place. Am I too
kumbaya right now?
Speaker 2 (40:36):
I do think so, And I think there are steps
beyond that. During the pandemic has started creating a roadmap
essentially like in a subscription form, where like you're learning
the skills that science has shown helps create a positive
foundation for mental health. And those things are things that
you would expect coping skills like learning to identify your emotion,
(41:00):
being able to talk about your emotions. It is bigger
than just that, but that is the very basis, and
it is one hundred percent doable.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
You got this. You hear it here first from Sarah
Alsher of Marry and Bright and from Katie Low's of
Katie's Crib. How is parenting going overall for you in
our wrapping up, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
It is My kid is so magical. It is so hard.
And also I like her more every day. She's super cool,
she's weak, cooler than I ever was, and she wants
to hang out with me, and she's she's got a
(41:48):
good head on her shoulders.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
That's thanks to her mother.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I also think we tie in and beat ourselves up,
especially for things that we control, like a divorce, for example,
but even cats are a lot of people with cancer
just feel so guilty. And it's like, yes, it sucks
to be a child and have your parent go through
something hard, but it's also really beneficial to have it
(42:15):
while your parent is there to hold your hand. I
was there to hold her hand, help her learn how
to cope with difficult things, help her understand that you
don't need to feel sorry for yourself. Yes, this sucks,
but that's life. And now she can cope with other
things more easily because she's had these experiences.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Do you have any other advice for parents who are
going through hard things? For example, a parent, let's say,
who thinks they should stay together for their kids.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
First off, researches can research can be skewed. There was
a whole article I read about how Americans ended up
thinking that divorce was like the worst thing ever, and
it's not. And the vast majority of kids, they turn
out just fine. And it has everything to do with
(43:12):
how stable the parent is.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
The one loving parent.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yes, they need, yes, but I would say, if I
have one piece of advice if you are going through
something difficult, it is ask for help. I as a
single parent, did every single thing myself all the time,
and when you are diagnosed with cancer, that is no
longer an option. And it was so hard and also
(43:37):
the greatest gift to both me and my daughter because
it made me realize just how many good people there
are in the world, and to focus on those people.
Focus on the people that are doing good rather than
focusing on the people that didn't show up. Just focus
on the people that are helping. Ask for help, allow help.
(43:59):
And it's good for your kids to be community that
beyond just you. Yes, you have a community. There are
other adults you can trust. And that's good for everybody.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
One more time, because it's so important for parents who
feel they should not tell the children because of how
scary or tough or hard the topics may be.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
So. Two weeks ago, I lost one of my friends
to cancer. She did not tell her daughter, and it
was something I had been begging her to do for
two three years. You want to be the one to
(44:44):
whatever's going to happen is going to happen, and you
want your kids to have the skills to be able
to deal with it while you're there to hold their hand.
And as terrifying as it is to have these conversations,
it builds trust, it builds connection, and it builds strength.
(45:05):
There are people who can help you have these conversations.
There are so many people you can reach out to
me if you don't know how to have a conversation,
I'm putting it out there, chronic illness, whatever it is, seriously,
I will help you have this conversation with your kids.
But there's also hospice workers, grief counselors, child therapists, all
(45:29):
kinds of people who will help you. You don't have
to do it by yourself. But the amount of confusion
that a child feels when they are not told the
truth is not okay. And you also just really need
to understand that your kids know something's going on anyway,
(45:49):
and all you're doing by avoiding the conversation is sending
them the message that it's not okay to talk about
and they need to deal with it themselves, that you
can't handle it. They want to protect you. You need
to show them that you are strong enough for both
of you. This is not something a child should be
(46:09):
dealing with themselves, and you don't want them the other
because a number of kids who I was so afraid
somebody was going to say something to my kid. I
was like, do I use the word cancer? Yes, you
use the word cancer, because if you don't, then somebody's
going to say it. And that word has power and
(46:30):
means a whole bunch of different things. You want to
be the one to control the narrative. Here. My daughter's
second grade teacher said to her, there was some kid
that was had stage four bringing cancer and was dying
and is dying. Wish was to get letters from kids
in elementary school, and so her class was doing writing
all these letters, and the teacher says to my daughter,
(46:52):
how do you feel? Are you okay? Because I know
this kid has the same thing your mom has.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
But my daughter knew it wasn't the same thing. She
was in second grade, and she was able to come
home and say, my mom does not have what that
kid has because I had said to her, cancer means
a lot of different things. You want to be the
one in control of the narrative. So that is why
you need to tell your kids.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
I think that is brilliant and so true. And again
goes back to communication. It's everything. It's one hundred one
minute conversations, not one one hundred minute conversation anything else
you think parents should know about divorce and cancer that
they don't realize.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Everybody's gonna be okay. It feels like the worst thing
in the world, but everybody's gonna be okay. I had
a girlfriend who went through it like eight years before me.
I remember her saying, I know you think that he
is the worst, but he's going to get better. I
was like, Nope, not possible, not possible. I'm not saying
everybody ends up this way, but we have a truly
(48:03):
modern family now, and I never would have thought it
was gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. Everybody's gonna
be okay.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
So inspiring.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Even if you aren't sharing dinners, you're still gonna be okay.
Because you're in charge of that.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Finish this sentence. I ask every guest on our podcast
this parenthood is.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Hard and wonderful.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Sarah, I'm so grateful that you came on the podcast.
Where can people find the books and the calendars? Tell
us your website and.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Stuff Mightyandbright dot com. My books are also all on
Amazon if you search for my name, which is Sarah
ulshar and you can find me on Instagram at Mighty
and Bright. Coo.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Everybody go please if you're going through hard things, if
your friends who are parents are going through hard things.
This is an incredible resource that exists to hew help
us parent because we will all parent through difficult, hard
things at various times in our parenting experience. And I'm
so glad, Sarah you are doing the work to help
(49:11):
us all. Thank you so much for coming on Katie's Crib.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
Guys so much for listening to today's episode. I want
to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns. Let
me know. You can always find me at Katie'scrib at
Shondaland dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of Shondaland
Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
(49:46):
to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Storytelling is an important way of explaining things to kids
and having them be able to put their put themselves
in someone else's shoes, like a story about a dog dying,
et cetera, and the feelings that character had. But there's
there was a whole segment missing of this is what
it is, this is how it affects your life, this
(00:29):
is what it means to have cancer. And then later
some of these other books where kids are their mommy
has breast cancer. All the books were about breast cancer.
Was the other thing that really frustrated me. Oh, because
for the love of all things good and holy, people.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Come on people, good Lord.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I'm like, why must we make this breast cancer specific
or mommy specific? So all of my books apply to
any type of cancer. My divorce book, there's a version
for two moms and a version for two dads. I
want it so that people of all kinds can see themselves.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Hello, everybody, Welcome back to Katie's Crib. I was just
speaking with our guest today about when things are really
hard and you're parenting, and I have friends who have
been through this. I'm talking the real hard stuff like divorce, cancer,
school shootings. There's some real stuff that happens in parenting
(01:40):
on a personal level, like if your mom gets diagnosed
with a disease, if the parents are going through marital
things and are separating all of that stuff, how do
you deal so Mighty and Bright we have the founder here,
Sarah Oulsher. She is a writer and illustrator, speaker, and,
like I said, the founder of this incredible resource called
(02:05):
Mighty and Bright, which is a company that creates unique
book and calendar sets to bring clarity to kids about
confusing and hard situations. Sarah has worked hard to be
comfortable with the profoundly uncomfortable, and her work has been
featured in such platforms as Pop Sugar, Reader's Digest, The Mighty,
(02:25):
and Good Housekeeping. She has spoken in front of audiences
large and small about her own experiences of making major
life changes after divorce and cancer, and Sarah believes that
everyone has the resilience to overcome hardship and use those
lessons to make this world a better place. Brava, Sarah,
(02:46):
thank you so much for coming on Katie's Crib. I'm
so grateful for what you're doing. Can you start us
at the beginning, How did you start it? And what
gave you The idea for Mighty and Bright?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Started out of necessity. My daughter was two when I
went through a pretty brutal divorce and she was having
really bad anxiety and I had no idea what to do.
I think everybody kind of has their like go to
thing that they do when something's hard, Like you google
things which you probably shouldn't, you find books. For me,
(03:21):
I was like, I'm going to go to a therapist.
And my ex husband was like, what could a therapist
do to help a two year old? And I was like,
I don't know, but she is afraid of literally everything,
and so we're going to find out. And so I
found this really great therapist who opened my eyes to
the way you can communicate with small kids and basically
(03:43):
that they understand a lot more than we give them
credit for, and so most of us are just thinking, oh,
it's a little baby or it's a toddler, they're not
going to understand this, so we don't explain things. So
that was the main skill that I got from her.
But the thing that really changed every thing for me
was when she went on vacation and she pulled out
(04:03):
this like a construction paper calendar that she had made,
and she was showing how usually we see her on
this day, but we're not going to see her on
that day and instead we're going to see her on
this day. And I was like, why am I not
using this to show my daughter when she's going to
see her dad next? Because that was all she kept
(04:28):
what And So I had run an illustration business for
six years and I had these illustrations of our family,
and so I just split them apart and made them
into these little magnets and created the jankiest calendar on
the planet using like electrical tape.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Honey, that is not what they look like. Now when
you all listeners go to Mighty and Bright and you
can see all the calendars offered and all it's beautiful.
They are incredible for personal for gifts, for everything. They're amazing.
How did you start to unpack what exactly children need
in these challenging times? Was it from this therapist?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I actually have a background in psychology myself, which is problem.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
My gosh, you are, oh my goodness, you are the
perfect mass. It's weird.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
I don't know quite how, like life took me in
these turns that kind of all came together into creating
this thing that really needed to be there. But yeah,
so I've always really understood things like on a soul level,
like how what people need. But there's so much research
(05:39):
about specifically what kids need to cope and what they
need for creating a foundation of positive mental health. Like
all that research is there, and so I just dove
headfirst into it and thought, like, how is it that
we know all of these things, but there's nothing out
there that helps parents like actually implement it because as
(06:02):
a parent, like, we have one hundred billion things that
are going around in our heads all the time, and
it gets really overwhelming. And you were talking about school shootings.
All these things are really scary, and the more statistics
we hear, the more frozen we feel. And so what
I really wanted to do is basically create a roadmap
(06:23):
that made it easy for parents to understand what you
start with, what comes next, and really be able to
help their kids cope through this stuff because the truth is,
no matter how much we want to protect our kids
from every bad thing that's ever going to happen, life
is hard, and it is going to throw stuff at them.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
I had sort of a white picket fence, I guess
you could say childhood where I just really didn't experience
trauma out of an ordinary child's life. And when I
was eighteen, I was a freshman at NYU during World
Trade Center during nine to eleven, and I lived two
(07:07):
blocks away and saw it all happen. And I remember
my dad after he realized that I was safe and
we were together, he was hysterical crying because he was like,
I made it this far and had protected you from
seeing anything bad. And now, look, eighteen years is an
incredible feat to go. But I'm saying it's life is hard,
(07:31):
and your children will experience hard things no matter what,
and exactly like you say, it's going to be the
challenge of being a parent is figuring out how you
give your children these skills to cope and to move
through these things, like for yourself you went through. Can
you tell me about your divorce, let's start there, and
(07:51):
how you told your daughter and explain to her what
divorce was.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
That was kind of the beginning part of my realizing
and there were no resources out there.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Oh God, I can't even imagine, yes, yes, tell you know.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
She's twelve now. So this was ten years ago. I
created the first co parenting calendar. There was nothing out there,
and it was infuriating to me.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Explain to me what a co parenting calendar. Explain to
where I know what it is, but explain to your
listeners what a co parenting calendar is.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Okay, So I think the traditional thought of a co
parenting calendar are these apps that people use with their
co parent to figure out who's going to see the
kids on what day. But the thing that is really
missing is giving the kids their own co parenting calendar,
so their own visual schedule where they have little pictures
(08:43):
that show when they're going to see each parent, and
the kid needs to have ownership over it. It needs
to belong to them. It can't be part of this
like big command center that a lot of families have
because having the kid have ownership over it makes them
feel a sense of control. But I just can't even
explain how powerful it is. So that is what I
(09:06):
used to explain to her what divorce was once I
created this thing. My mistake was she was a year
and a half when we separated, and I didn't think
I needed to explain it to her. I didn't study
child development. Had I known how fascinating children were, that
would have one hundred percent been where I focused every
(09:26):
bit of my studies, because they're fascinating. But I didn't
understand just how much she understood.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
So at one and a half, you didn't say to her, like, what,
mommy and Daddy aren't we're not living together anymore, and
we both love you and you will spend time with me.
Make it fat, tell her the facts exactly of the deal.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
What I would do now, knowing that I know what
I know now, would be to say, we have one house. Now, Mommy, Daddy,
baby all live in the same house. But now Daddy
is going to have a house. Mommy is going to
have a house. So you can see mommy and daddy
at their own house.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Great, And here's the calendar right where, here's your little
picture that we put. These are the days you spend
at daddy's house, and these are the days you do
stay at mommy's house.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
The other thing that I think a lot of parents
think is, well, my kid doesn't have any concept of
time at that age, so how do you show them
a weekly calendar and have them understand it. And so
I created these little stickers that you can put on
the calendar so that they understand each day break basically
is a sleep so you can say it's two sleeps
(10:40):
until Daddy's house, it's two sleeps until this play date.
So kids of all ages can really benefit from it.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Oh, that's so great. Can you tell me about in
our listeners about your cancer story and how you told
your daughter what cancer was, how it was impacting you
and your daughter's mental health at the time.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah, so she was six. I was thirty four, and
I have a big family history of breast cancer and
was in an early detection program I really had to
fight for. And it was my first breast MRI that
was supposed to be a baseline. They were gonna this
(11:22):
is where we're at, so if there's any weird changes,
we'll no And it caught my cancer. I had four
inches of cancer in my left breast and I got
the diagnosis while I was alone on a radiology table.
And the first thing I thought was as parents, because
some pretty dark places, but when you're told you have cancer,
(11:45):
all I could see was my daughter's tearful face at
my funeral. I was just devastated because at the time,
her dad and I were not getting along. She didn't
want to spend time with him, and I was like,
what am I going to do? And so what I
really recommend to people who get a diagnosis like that
(12:06):
is don't talk to your kids until you know a
little bit more so that you can actually give them
some facts about what this means. But also don't wait
that long, because kids understand that something is going on,
and it's like they can sense the energy in the room,
and they will make up stories about what it is
(12:27):
that's going on, and usually they will come up with
a story in which it is all their fault that
you're mad at them or something's wrong. Luckily, with all
of the research that I had done about divorce, I
already knew a lot of this stuff.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
You knew that you had to talk to her about it,
not pretend in front of her that it wasn't happening, exactly,
know the facts to explain things in like a simple,
developmentally appropriate way. Tell me about doing that when.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Such order, what my go to was getting on Amazon
and buying a book to explain what cancer was. And
so I ordered probably six books, and I did not
like any of them. None of them explained what cancer was,
and I thought, this is like, again, kids understand more
(13:19):
than we give them credit for. We don't need these
weird analogies about like storms in your brain or like
you know, it complicates, confuses and scares them. So I
didn't use any of the books, and I basically just
explained to her really simply, our bodies are made up
of cells. They're like little teeny tiny building blocks. It's
(13:41):
like building with legos. But the cool thing about them
is that they can make new ones anytime they want to,
and so you just build forever and never stop, and
it's really cool. But sometimes a broken cell is made
and that broken cell doesn't know what its job is,
and the only thing no how to do is make
more and more copies of its own broken self. And
(14:05):
if there's enough of those broken cells together, they make
it hard for the body to do its job, for
the cells that are doing their jobs to work right.
Really clear, Yeah, so that's what I said to her.
And I said, so, what happened was we found some
of these broken guys, like in my breast, and so
we're going to have to take them out, and I
(14:27):
didn't need to go much further than that, because at
the time I thought that I had a very early
stage cancer. I thought all I was going to need
was surgery. I was going to have both my breasts
removed and reconstructed, which was a whole thing in and
of itself. So all I thought I needed to say
was they only found like a couple guys, So we're
(14:48):
just gonna cut them out and.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
It's going to be done, and Momy's gonna be okay.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Are you allowed to say things like that, Mommy's going
to be okay, don't worry, or you really stay away
from things like that.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
It depends on the situation. I in my case, I
felt pretty comfortable saying that, but if something changes, like
in my case it did. When I woke up from
my double mastectomy, it turned out it had it was
in my lymph nodes, and so I had to have chemo.
All I said to my daughter was they told me
that I only had one little guy, And it turns
(15:21):
out that one little guy made some friends and they
were going to go move to another part of my body,
and so to make sure that all of them are dead,
we're going to get some special medicine called chemo, And
then I explained to her, So what that means is
I am going to go into the doctor's office every
(15:42):
three weeks and they're going to give me this really
big medicine, and the medicine is going to make sure
that all of those guys die. The problem is some
of the healthy cells are also going to die, and
that means that my hair is probably going to fall out.
But I don't want you to worry about my hair
falling out, because it's gonna grow back. And when all
(16:03):
the medicine is done and so the good cells will
come back and the bad cells are dead.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
That was that did she have a very anxious response.
I know that you were dealing, I think you said,
and correct me if I'm wrong. That she was struggling
with some anxiety around the divorce stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, she had just generalized anxiety her whole life, and
so that was part of why I was so worried
about explaining this to her. But when I first told
her about the cancer, she came out of my bed
or her bedroom where I was telling her, and she
was like, Mommy told me, And my mom was like,
what did she tell? You, and she's like, she has something.
(16:46):
I don't remember what it was called, but it's little
and it's gonna be okay. So initially it was fine.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
I think things like this are so important when you
commit to a confident like I think Katie's Crib has
done this for me, and I hope that it's done
this for our listeners. And it's something that you're talking
about again, which is I know that it's important to
tell my kids hard things and good things and all
in between, and it's important to communicate with them in
(17:18):
a developmentally appropriate way. But I feel like the confidence
in that I know, even if it's hard to tell
them that I am doing the best choice that I
can as a mother by telling them and not keeping
it from them already, I feel like puts us leagues
(17:38):
ahead than our parents' generation and their generation before them.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
My aunt died from breast cancer at forty two. She
did not tell her children. They are still very upset
about that. It has affected our family in a way
that I just thought, never ever would I ever do
that to my children, And it also traumatized me because
(18:03):
I'm like my cousins all had to get married, have
their babies without their mom there. The likelihood is high
that I had the same type of cancer that killed her. Right,
but that's the difference between twenty seventeen and nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
That's right, that's right. Wait, hold on one second. I
just have someone at my door. Hold on, it's my child,
and I'm going to tell them to go away. Hold on.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Oh no, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Children. Okay, So how does the vocabulary change when you're
communicating with your child after you told them, told her
you have cancer, and now you tell her that I
just want to go back. So I think that vocabulary
is important. When you realized that it was going to
(19:02):
not be such an easy the easier fix that you
thought it was going to be, Like, did you say,
I have to let you know that the information has changed?
What did you say to her?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
I said, so in the time that it took for
me to have the surgery, and the first time that
they saw the picture, the little guys had moved and
they're made more And it turned out they were doing
that quickly, and so now they're gone. They got all
(19:33):
of them out, but they want to make sure that
because they're so tiny, they want to make sure any
of them are gone forever. As time goes on and
science changes and learns more things. The way that they're
looking at cancer is different now is even if you
have stage four cancer, which is cancer that has spread
(19:56):
and you will have it will be the thing that
kills you at some point, burn getting hit by a
truck or something that has been a death sentence in
years pasture and now they are looking at that more
of living with a chronic illness. People have lived for
twenty years with stage four, so it doesn't always mean
(20:19):
that's it for you. The way that I explain this,
because what I did from all of this explaining was
I wrote my first children's book about cancer.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Okay, congratulations, that's amazing, and on behalf of myself and
our listeners, thank you for doing that.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Thank you. But at the end, the way that I
explain metastatic disease is that some people will live with
cancer for the rest of their lives, and they will
keep going to the doctor, and they will have different
types of medicines, and they will always let you know
what is going on. You can trust your grown up
(20:58):
to tell you when something is going on. So we
have to be honest with ourselves and our kids that
sometimes things change, and that is a difficult thing for
most humans to deal with. Most of us don't like
change of any kind, but especially when somebody has told
you something is true and then it turns out to
(21:19):
not be true, and that's just rude. We just have
to be honest with our kids and say this is
what we thought, and unfortunately it turned out to be
something different or things have changed.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
How was your daughter's mental health at the time and
getting through I know we were touching on her anxiety,
but was she in therapy at the time. What tools?
I know you said you got books that were crap
you so you wrote your own. What tools did you
use to get her through your cancer treatments?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
I was really worried about her. She was acting relatively normal,
and I just thought there must be some kind of
like thing that she's processing inside that's going to come
out later and be just like really awful. But she
handled it a lot better than I ever expected, and
I think part of that was because I knew all
(22:14):
of these things about what helps prevent traumatic things from
being traumatic, and that is talking about it, showing your
kids what to expect. I created a whole calendar to
show her what to expect out of my treatment. This
is a day that I'm going to have chemo. This
is how I'm probably going to be feeling tired for
a few days. That helped a lot. The other thing
(22:37):
that really helped, which I never thought I would be
grateful to be divorced, but her dad remarried pretty quickly
after we divorced and they had a baby, and the
baby was born like before I was diagnosed, and so
he was a really great distraction for my daughter because
she was like, I have a brother, and so was
(23:00):
total gift and it completely changed our co parenting relationship
my having cancer. I just didn't have the energy to
deal with Wow, dramatic, interesting, And it made me realize
so much of these relationships that are just like difficult
or you're like butting heads is just letting go and
(23:21):
just saying you know what you do a you. I
don't have the energy to deal with you in your
like ways that you do things that's different than me.
I just can't.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So mommy's not going to feel her best self and
she might be very tired. Did she ever see you
very sick? Did she see you lose your hair? Were
those conversations that were had.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yes, so I actually involved her in the process. I
had long, red, curly hair that.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Was like, my so beautiful, it's so beautiful now, thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, I loved it, and so I knew it was
going to fall out, and I'd never had a short haircut.
So we went to a lot. My girlfriends were the
absolute best. They got me an appointment to have my
hair cut short and sassy, and my daughter and my
mom came to and each of them got a pink
stripe in their hair. And then when it started to
(24:14):
fall out, I let my daughter cut my hair, and
so I will tell you I took a video of
a time lapse of the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
There were times where I thought, for sure I should
not have given the six year old scissors. I was like,
she's gonna kill me. But hey, it was definitely a
memory I will never forget, and it helped her, I think,
feel like she was participating in something. We were laughing
about it. I think involving her as much as possible
(24:49):
was good. It's different based on different ages, So early
elementary school, younger kids they usually want to talk about it,
and adolescence. Depending on the kids some of them don't,
and that's okay too. So I think it's just a
matter of the ways that you make this easier for
kids is by understanding that they need to feel like
(25:12):
they can come to you with literally anything and you're
not going to get mad at them. They can ask
you any question, right, And that's why bringing in books,
bringing in the calendar, their physical reminders to the kid
that if they have any questions, you are open to
answering them. It's when things are quiet, it's when the
book is closed. It's when you make it so they
(25:35):
can't feel safe.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Or that you're not honest too. Like they know they
know when something's up, guys, they know they know, yes,
like done this morning. I'm on so little sleep because
we were at a premiere last night and I was
cranky and he's like, what's going on?
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Mom?
Speaker 1 (25:52):
You're so frustrated? You know what I mean? Even though
I don't not saying like, Mommy is on too little sleep.
So approaching your books, how are they different than the
stuff that you were not getting what you needed?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
So now I have nine books?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Please? Yeah, thank Sarah. That's awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
So the main difference in the books I have a
series called what About Me Books. The point of them
is to take hard conversations, explain them to kids as
far as what it is it's actually going on, but
then also explain how it affects the kid's life, because kids,
from a developmental point of view, the whole world revolves
(26:36):
around them, and they want to know what it means. Okay,
mommy is sick. Does that mean I'm going to be
left alone? What does that mean to me? And so
all of the books are like, this is what's happening,
now what about the kid? And there's a calendar, like
a drawing of a calendar in each one of the books,
and it says, this is how your day to day
(26:57):
is going to be affected by this hard thing, and
that is what makes them different.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Wow, that's so great. It's how it's related to the
kid and the kid's life. Yes, we don't take that
into consideration. That's really smart.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Storytelling is an important way of explaining things to kids
and having them be able to put their put themselves
in someone else's shoes, like a story about a dog dying,
et cetera, and the feelings that character had. But there's
there was a whole segment missing of this is what
it is, this is how it affects your life, This
(27:33):
is what it means to have cancer. And then later
some of these other books where kids are their mommy
has breast cancer. All the books were about breast cancer.
Was the other thing that really frustrated me, because, for
the love of all things good and holy, people.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Come on people, good Lord.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
I'm like, why must we make this breast cancer specific
or mommy specific? So all of my books apply to
any type of cancer. My divorce books, there's a version
for two moms and a version for two dads. I
want it so that people of all kinds can see themselves.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Feel represented, and they see themselves in the book, and
it's their pathway into these hard, difficult conversations with our children.
After the separation your husband, the divorce is final, you
(28:35):
moved out in separate houses. How did she deal with that?
And then let's talk about how did she deal once
you were through the chemotherapy rounds.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yeah, I think it becomes your new normal, and it's
a matter of making that new normal as normal as possible.
That's all life is, change up, change after change. So
it just became a new normal where that is what
we talk about that is how things are there with
(29:10):
regards to the divorce. I think there it's grieving, and
I think I think if we I listened to your
episode with Teresa Caputo and she was.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Told, my goodness, my girl, I love her.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yes, but one of the things that she was talking
about is these everyday losses. That is a big part
of what I do is trying to explain to parents
that anytime there's a change, it's grief. For kids, grief
is when anything is taken away from you without your consent,
and for kids, so much happens to them and feels
(29:50):
out of their control. If we have empathy for our
kids and think if someone had died, is this how
we would be treating our kids? Would be be fresh
straight at them for talking about their other parent who
has died. Would we want them to just get over it? No,
we would want them to feel supported. We would want
(30:10):
them to know that no matter what, they are loved.
We would want them to know that if they are upset,
they can get a hug. The problem is balancing that
with our own mental health, because when kids are going
through something difficult, the whole family is going through something difficult.
And parents are on a good day at capacity, and
(30:32):
so how do we balance these two things right? And
the answer for my family is freaking screen time. And
if I hear one more ep in person tell me
screen time is terrible, I'm screw you. I need this
going through a freaking divorce and I need to go
into my bedroom and just breathe for a fricking minute.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I get it. I think the pandemic I'm hoping changed
things in that when we all sort of hit this
like this stop and we were like, oh my god,
if we have to put on the television. And yet
still you're not wrong. I still feel bad about it.
It's so stupid.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I was talking to a therapist who deal specifically with
postpartum moms and she's like, show me the study that
says screen time is worse for kids than a parent
with poor mental health.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Oh, it's not. And also Mike Charlie, Yeah, and yeah, yeah, Mike,
drop leave it right there. Emily Ostur, who has been
on this podcast and only deals with things in terms
of statistics and facts, it's not true about screen time
at all, But you still feel bad about it because
mob guilt is a real thing. What I'm getting and
correct me if I'm wrong. What I'm getting from both
(31:47):
your divorce experience and your cancer experience is that your
daughter did Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yes, she she does grieve still over our families said
suation mostly, and I think putting her in situations where
she wasn't the only one is really helpful. Knowing other
kids of divorce so she's not the only one, knowing
other kids who have a parent with cancer, so that
(32:17):
she isn't the only one, and she feels that sense
of community is really important. And then I also think
all the research that I did about mental health when
we hit the pandemic was when I started to realize
just how little resources there were out there for kids.
And really it has always been difficult to find a
(32:37):
child therapist. But I also think parents don't feel capable
to handle a lot of things on their own, and
so I think they don't really realize how much they
can actually help. I think we think a therapist has
a degree, and so they're going to be able to
do things that we can't. And in some cases that
(32:59):
is true. We don't have the skills. So if there's
like a crisis situation, obviously getting a professional to help
us really important, but like to know that your parent
child relationship, like you need to work on this stuff,
these skills in addition to therapy or while you're on
the waiting list. It is up to parents to teach
(33:21):
these skills to their kids. Because a pandemic is a
very hard thing.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
It's another tough thing to talk on that list of
like tough things that we need to talk about with
our children. Why are books such a great way in.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Kids learn by repetition and they learn from visual images.
And the great thing about a book is it's there
and it doesn't change every time you read it. It's
the same. We might explain a topic and say it
slightly differently each time, and that.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Can be confused, amusing, It's sure.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Having that initial conversation is really good and then having
the book to back it up so that you can
constantly read it. How many of us have a kid
who chose like a favorite book and then we were
just like so done with it. There's a book from
my daughter's childhood, she was like three, she could recite
the whole freakin thing.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Sure, of course, of course that's how much you read it? Yes, exactly, absolutely,
it's absolutely I think it's such a such a great
way in two because if you are a person that
comes from a family where hard things were not discussed,
you feel out of practice and that you literally don't
have the vocabulary. You don't even know how or what
(34:43):
to say. And so by using the book, like we've
done tons of topics in this podcast on race or
sex or things like that, and I come from a
family that never talked about race, and it was important
to me to find the right books so I could
myself with the correct vocabulary to talk about race to
(35:04):
my kids because I didn't know. And similarly, like I
wouldn't know the words to say if I got a
cancer diagnosis or my husband and I were facing divorce,
Like and to go back to this, I know we
touched on a little bit. So your books are different
than the crap that was out of there.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Also, the illustrations were freaking terrifying. There was one that
was talking about going to the hospital. I swear to
you the doctor looked like possessed was.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
A freak night. Okay, So like the illas, because you
have an illustrative background, you were very particular on what
the pictures look like. Yeah, and then it always goes
back to how it affects the kid because they are
the center of their world at this time in their life.
That's that we know is true. So now let's get
(35:57):
into the calendars you sell. I love this idea. I
think it's so smart. My son is constantly he feels
ill at not at ease if he doesn't know who's
picking him up, who's dropping him off, those sorts of things.
And when I was doing research on you, I was like,
oh my god, why have I never put up a
(36:18):
calendar of the week with little So I bought one.
How did the calendar idea come up?
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Again?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
It was the therapist telling me that she telling my
daughter she was going on vacation, and so then I
just started doing research. Initially I had created one that
showed two weeks at a time, and then as I
am like really anal about making my house pretty and
(36:46):
so I didn't want one of these like really ugly
ass calendars. They're so fucking oh my god, I hate
primary colors. No, and so I was trying to make
it cuter and cuter as it had different iteration, and
realized when I started creating one for children with cancer
that the doctors and the childlife specialists are the people
(37:11):
that work with the children in hospitals. They only want
to show the kids one week at a time because
depending on the situation, it can be really overwhelming for
a kid multiple weeks. And the added benefit of it
was it created a perpetual calendar, so you could buy
(37:31):
like two three weeks at a time, and when you
get to the bottom, you erase that one and move
it to the top, so it's always up to date.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
So there were a bunch of reasons why I made
it one week at a time, and they're useful for
kids of all ages. My daughter is twelve has been
using this since she was two.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Wow, Sarah.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Yeah, I really wanted to make sure that it was sturdy.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
We know kids, Yeah, durable. Yeah, how can we use
your products to help? Like I had just touched on,
but with other hard topics like school shootings, we talked
about black lives matter, death, Yeah, smaller things. I mean,
obviously school shootings, black lives matter, these are big things.
(38:24):
But it was huge in my house when we had
to put my dog down like that was my child,
my four year old's first experience with death and brought
up a lot of death questions, and so how do
your products work with other hard topics.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Basically, structure is the first like visual structure is the
first thing that you need in order to help kids
cope every difficult thing that happens. The recommendation is always
stick to a routine as much as you possibly can,
and that's because it creates a content that helps children
(39:02):
feel safe when things are crazy. And it's like when
take divorce for example, like don't you're going from one
house to the next, but every day begins and ends
with sleep. Things are changing, but some things are the same.
And the more that you can show kids what their
routine is going to look like, the more that you
(39:24):
can predict and show them their lives, the less anxiety
they're going to feel. So, even if it has nothing
to do with our political climate or death or whatever,
the hard thing is, just showing them what to expect
out of their day to day is going to help
them cope and make them feel safer.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Love it. What are three things needed for kids to
get through challenging times?
Speaker 2 (39:52):
One thing that I when I heard the statistic, it
made my hearts sink. They need one loving adult one
So if you are going through a terrible divorce and
your ex is a crazy person. Know that your kids
need one loving, stable adult. So if you can be
that person for your kid that they need. Yep, so
(40:14):
one loving adult who values a parent child relationship. They
need structure, routines, They need to know what to expect
out of their lives, and they need to know that
they can come to you with anything.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
That's it. I feel like if we all just did that,
the world would be a better place. Am I too
kumbaya right now?
Speaker 2 (40:36):
I do think so, And I think there are steps
beyond that. During the pandemic has started creating a roadmap
essentially like in a subscription form, where like you're learning
the skills that science has shown helps create a positive
foundation for mental health. And those things are things that
you would expect coping skills like learning to identify your emotion,
(41:00):
being able to talk about your emotions. It is bigger
than just that, but that is the very basis, and
it is one hundred percent doable.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
You got this. You hear it here first from Sarah
Alsher of Marry and Bright and from Katie Low's of
Katie's Crib. How is parenting going overall for you in
our wrapping up, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
It is My kid is so magical. It is so hard.
And also I like her more every day. She's super cool,
she's weak, cooler than I ever was, and she wants
to hang out with me, and she's she's got a
(41:48):
good head on her shoulders.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
That's thanks to her mother.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I also think we tie in and beat ourselves up,
especially for things that we control, like a divorce, for example,
but even cats are a lot of people with cancer
just feel so guilty. And it's like, yes, it sucks
to be a child and have your parent go through
something hard, but it's also really beneficial to have it
(42:15):
while your parent is there to hold your hand. I
was there to hold her hand, help her learn how
to cope with difficult things, help her understand that you
don't need to feel sorry for yourself. Yes, this sucks,
but that's life. And now she can cope with other
things more easily because she's had these experiences.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Do you have any other advice for parents who are
going through hard things? For example, a parent, let's say,
who thinks they should stay together for their kids.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
First off, researches can research can be skewed. There was
a whole article I read about how Americans ended up
thinking that divorce was like the worst thing ever, and
it's not. And the vast majority of kids, they turn
out just fine. And it has everything to do with
(43:12):
how stable the parent is.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
The one loving parent.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yes, they need, yes, but I would say, if I
have one piece of advice if you are going through
something difficult, it is ask for help. I as a
single parent, did every single thing myself all the time,
and when you are diagnosed with cancer, that is no
longer an option. And it was so hard and also
(43:37):
the greatest gift to both me and my daughter because
it made me realize just how many good people there
are in the world, and to focus on those people.
Focus on the people that are doing good rather than
focusing on the people that didn't show up. Just focus
on the people that are helping. Ask for help, allow help.
(43:59):
And it's good for your kids to be community that
beyond just you. Yes, you have a community. There are
other adults you can trust. And that's good for everybody.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
One more time, because it's so important for parents who
feel they should not tell the children because of how
scary or tough or hard the topics may be.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
So. Two weeks ago, I lost one of my friends
to cancer. She did not tell her daughter, and it
was something I had been begging her to do for
two three years. You want to be the one to
(44:44):
whatever's going to happen is going to happen, and you
want your kids to have the skills to be able
to deal with it while you're there to hold their hand.
And as terrifying as it is to have these conversations,
it builds trust, it builds connection, and it builds strength.
(45:05):
There are people who can help you have these conversations.
There are so many people you can reach out to
me if you don't know how to have a conversation,
I'm putting it out there, chronic illness, whatever it is, seriously,
I will help you have this conversation with your kids.
But there's also hospice workers, grief counselors, child therapists, all
(45:29):
kinds of people who will help you. You don't have
to do it by yourself. But the amount of confusion
that a child feels when they are not told the
truth is not okay. And you also just really need
to understand that your kids know something's going on anyway,
(45:49):
and all you're doing by avoiding the conversation is sending
them the message that it's not okay to talk about
and they need to deal with it themselves, that you
can't handle it. They want to protect you. You need
to show them that you are strong enough for both
of you. This is not something a child should be
(46:09):
dealing with themselves, and you don't want them the other
because a number of kids who I was so afraid
somebody was going to say something to my kid. I
was like, do I use the word cancer? Yes, you
use the word cancer, because if you don't, then somebody's
going to say it. And that word has power and
(46:30):
means a whole bunch of different things. You want to
be the one to control the narrative. Here. My daughter's
second grade teacher said to her, there was some kid
that was had stage four bringing cancer and was dying
and is dying. Wish was to get letters from kids
in elementary school, and so her class was doing writing
all these letters, and the teacher says to my daughter,
(46:52):
how do you feel? Are you okay? Because I know
this kid has the same thing your mom has.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
But my daughter knew it wasn't the same thing. She
was in second grade, and she was able to come
home and say, my mom does not have what that
kid has because I had said to her, cancer means
a lot of different things. You want to be the
one in control of the narrative. So that is why
you need to tell your kids.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
I think that is brilliant and so true. And again
goes back to communication. It's everything. It's one hundred one
minute conversations, not one one hundred minute conversation anything else
you think parents should know about divorce and cancer that
they don't realize.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Everybody's gonna be okay. It feels like the worst thing
in the world, but everybody's gonna be okay. I had
a girlfriend who went through it like eight years before me.
I remember her saying, I know you think that he
is the worst, but he's going to get better. I
was like, Nope, not possible, not possible. I'm not saying
everybody ends up this way, but we have a truly
(48:03):
modern family now, and I never would have thought it
was gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. Everybody's gonna
be okay.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
So inspiring.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Even if you aren't sharing dinners, you're still gonna be okay.
Because you're in charge of that.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Finish this sentence. I ask every guest on our podcast
this parenthood is.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Hard and wonderful.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Sarah, I'm so grateful that you came on the podcast.
Where can people find the books and the calendars? Tell
us your website and.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Stuff Mightyandbright dot com. My books are also all on
Amazon if you search for my name, which is Sarah
ulshar and you can find me on Instagram at Mighty
and Bright. Coo.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Everybody go please if you're going through hard things, if
your friends who are parents are going through hard things.
This is an incredible resource that exists to hew help
us parent because we will all parent through difficult, hard
things at various times in our parenting experience. And I'm
so glad, Sarah you are doing the work to help
(49:11):
us all. Thank you so much for coming on Katie's Crib.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
Guys so much for listening to today's episode. I want
to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns. Let
me know. You can always find me at Katie'scrib at
Shondaland dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of Shondaland
Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
(49:46):
to your favorite shows.
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