“Life Is Just So” (w/ Lena Dunham)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Look mare, Oh, I see you my own look over
there is that culture. Yes, lost culture, dang dong lost
culturesa's calling this. I just want to say before we
start of launch into whatever this is gonna be. What's
making me really happy is that we're watching our guests

(00:23):
consume her first ever celsius on ice and a glass.
And it's a color.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
It's a color that serendipitously matches her outfit and choose.
And speaking of the word serendipitous, I've had this vocal
stem for at least twelve years. I'm sorry. I don't
want to go to serendipity and drink frozen hot chocolates
with your uncle's girlfriend who is a stewardess named eld

(00:53):
The build that is right there in one line a
master you build? Oh, I've never forgotten that line of dialogue.
I mean, among others, among the legion of other sequences
of words on that show called Girls.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
But can I tell you another shorter one? Yes, I'd
like sometimes the revity like will be what hits? What
do I want to be? Like? You like? Mentally ill show?
You're cruel, drunk, It's it's crazy and we really had
to work with Alison to try to go back into
the foul cabinets of her brain when she was on

(01:31):
I think was that improvised line, it's crazy, it's crazy.
But then you read this wonderful book Fame Sick, and
you get a glimpse into the creative process. Honestly, here's
the thing, everyone out there, you need this book. You
actually need to read it. It's required reading. Not that
there's going to be a test, but like, consider yourself

(01:52):
unprepared for the rest of sort of your life going
forward if you don't go out and get it.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
It's not even there's no test involved. It's just a
book where and I haven't had this in a while.
It's one of.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Those it's a nodder. You're nodding every page.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
You get to recognize this, yeah, you knowing me not
at at a book like this, which I which felt
really refreshing.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
I mean, just to say this is obviously a huge
moment in the podcast. I mean, the creative of our
favorite show, the creative of our favorite words. I mean,
become a pal in a true love it first sight moment.
Became a pal.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
We found love in an apple place. That's all we'll say.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Let's just say I have one photo you know how,
you know how like sometimes on your iPhone, like one photo,
like there's that thing of like this day last year,
or sometimes it's it's not even a year ago. It's
just like your phone just decides pictures that it's gonna
keep showing. Terrible are like our guest factors into oh
that for me, because it's just I'll just randomly be

(03:01):
flipping through and it's like, oh, there's a picture of
me and bo oh, there's a picture of me and Greta,
and then there's Leonadnoman and Tim Cook, just the two
of them, a gorgeous couple. My nipples erect And we
have to unpack this on the anniversary of Apple's fiftieth
birthday and Apple did they? Okay, well we'll get into this. Everyone,
please welcome. Today is the fiftieth anniversary of Apple Computer?

Speaker 3 (03:28):
Is it really?

Speaker 1 (03:29):
And we're here together. We're here together.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
Okay. So I don't know how much I can say
before a drone strike happens right here, But firstly, I
just want to say, it's an honor to be with you.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Are you kidding?

Speaker 3 (03:40):
I'm a huge fan, a huge consumer of your content.
I love what you do. And when we had our
love at first sight moment, you says about the podcast
and I never do this, and I was like, which
I'd love to be on.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah no, And that was See that's the kind of
thing where it's like we earmarket immediately because I'm like, oh, okay,
that's something that can happen.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
I was begging for it to. I was circling the building.
But we spent two full and complete days together at
the Apple iPhone launch, which I kept saying, we're here
to understand the future. I didn't know what else to
say or how to say.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
It was that just what you were saying as a
line to the people that worked there, like, yeah, I'm
here to understand the future.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
Well, I was saying to the people who worked there,
and then I started to believe it. And then I
started to say it to be like care about like you.
But I was like, I don't want to be left behind.
I was like, when the future comes, I want to
be there when they're having us use the tools. I
want to be the one running the tools. And everyone
was like, okay, babe, come down, Like you're going to
get a free iPhone, you can Breathe.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
Got a new lens.

Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yes, I saw you to walk in. There was a
series of sort of public art arches, colorful arches, and
I was standing there awkwardly, my heels digging into the
sod and I saw you too, and I screamed a
scream that was like pure pleasure. It was like if
you were a wolf separated from your child in a

(05:04):
Disney movie and then you encountered them in the forest
after a full story.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah, that's I will say. I was like how I
said to Belle And I was like, how gagged would
you be if just to go back to like twenty
thirteen and be like, one day we're going to see
Leana Dunnoman event and be like thank god, oh my god.

Speaker 3 (05:24):
And I couldn't believe I was just sitting here in
such pleasure because you're better at being Alison in me
than Alison and me.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Oh god.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
But I will tell you I don't remember much, but
I do know that I don't want to drink frozen
hot chocolate at Serendipity with your uncle's girlfriend who's a
stewardess named Elidi was an improv Yeah, are you serious? Sometimes, Stuart,
do you catch lightning in a bottle sometimes. I remember
it was we were really jacked up. It was the

(05:52):
middle of the night. We weren't drinking Celsius but something equivalent,
and it just happened.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
I'm gonna butcher this because in that same line of
in that same block of script, you also say, and
mind you you're you're coked up, your characters, your hand
is coked up, and you look at me with your
eyes and you lied to me with your eyes what
you said by not saying anything at all like it
was it's just that's and that's of course that's all improvised.
And I'm like, but that's just that's just your brain.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
Well, that's so. We also snorted a lot of lactose powder. Yeah,
I was wondering, and you can't know what that does,
Like Andrew and I recently talked about it. We storted milk, Yeah,
tons of milk off a toilet that day and what
came later just had to be a sinus infection had
we I know, we didn't feel good. We were also

(06:41):
dan We were dancing in a club at We arrived
at five in the morning, so by the time we
were sweaty, coked up and dancing, it was seven thirty am. Yeah,
so like this night live scene was actually us jacked
up on lactose powder. Sure, seven thirty am. And what
happens happen is improving our face, little face. What is

(07:02):
it that you do on RuPauls drag Race?

Speaker 1 (07:04):
You did whatever?

Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (07:08):
That also broke open crop mesh. I think for a
new generation.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
Thank you so much. I remember when the shirt came out.
We had an amazing costume designer, Yeah, Jen, and she
brought the shirt out and was like, we could do
a bra with it, we could take I was like,
we're not doing anything with it.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
No, this is tits underneath.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
This is tits under This is my tits or my accessory.
And also, you don't know in your twenties how much
they're going to change. You don't know, Yeah, your tits.
And I was thinking about this recently because I have
a pal who lives with me who's in her twenties
and they're just up like champagne flutes. And I just
looked and I was like, take advantage, take photos, be topless.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
When you're doing a TV show and they asked you
if you want to broad underneath your.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
Mesh, say no, because someday you're going to be wearing
three T shirts and a sweater just to hold it back,
you know.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
So on this topic, do you want to unpack the
reason why your nipples went erect next to Tim Cook?

Speaker 3 (08:05):
It was crazy.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
It's okay if it's attraction.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
It was definitely like, he's got what do we call it, swag,
he's got riz whatever is going on, whatever that thing
is gonna be next week. But I also think like
the panic of you have two minutes with which to
properly engage with this person. I mean, I kept saying
things like I love your products. I was saying things
that I'd never imagine come out of my mouth. And

(08:30):
then I looked down and like, for the first time
in fifteen years, my nipples were standing at attention. And
I looked at the photo and it truly looks like
one of those pictures you see of like a married
couple that has moved to a vacation destination.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
To be on my phone. This is a picture that
I treasure.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah, we look like and I remember coming up to
it and being like, I just took the picture with him.
My nipples popped out and popped right back in. Don't
know why don't know how portrait mode. He's got searing eye.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
Okay, so this is something.

Speaker 3 (09:01):
I happened, like you incredibly blue searing eyes.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
That's so about a few months later. Yeah, I actually
was at the same restaurant as him when I was
in DC. Remember this, Melissa. We Melissa came and sang
back up for me on my tour. We're at a
restaurant and then Melissa for your service. Everyone goes and
and Melissa knew that I had met him at that event.
So the waiter comes over to our table and goes,

(09:24):
I do have to ask you guys, if you're finished,
If you don't mind, I never do this. It's just
that Tim Cook has your table after you and we
go what And I was like, not sure they were
supposed to do that anyway. I'm like, yes, we'll go,
we'll go, We'll go. And then someone goes, are you
going to say hi on the way out? I was like, no,
I am not. And then they go, well, why not,
I mean you've met the guy once. I was like,

(09:46):
I am not saying hello to Tim Cook on the
way out of here. I was like I don't want.

Speaker 3 (09:51):
Tim and being like we met for two minutes in
a picture line.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
You remember, everyone I was with was like expecting it
to happen, and so they described me running by him
like he was standing at the bar. I got on
the ground and basically used all my paths of all
my feet and hands to like crawl out, and they
were like, what you just did to not say hi
to him is the craziest thing we've ever seen.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
What's crazy is if I saw him in the wild,
I would never recognize him again. In my brain he
looks like Steve Jobs.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yeah, well you're like, it can't be.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
It can't be. But also his face, which was so
clear to me in that moment, like we'd been waiting
for each other our whole lives and gone disappeared into
a puff of smoke.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
No.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
And it's interesting because we were there together and we
didn't totally know. I mean, everyone was being really nice,
but we didn't totally know what our job was. What
are we here for? What do you want from us?
I like clear instructions.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
It felt like the beginning of the Westing Game or
like an Agatha Christie the Westing Game.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
Well, I love the Westing Game too, And you kind
of just shove something through me.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
I saw our project Wheel do together.

Speaker 3 (10:59):
Did they ever make a movie of the West?

Speaker 1 (11:01):
I'm sure I looked this up. I think they did
beca Can you look up if they did The Western Game?
Maybe in the eighties early nineties for television.

Speaker 3 (11:10):
Books that are like part of a genre of like
mysteries for children, like suspense for children. There was one
that I loved. I don't know if you ever called
the Wolves of Willoughby Chase, No anything. It was. It
was like about a girl. I loved books about like
a girl who is an orphan and she moves to
a house and something's not quite right. Yeah, and she
gets out her little book and pencil. That's exactly right.

(11:32):
And I wanted to be that child. And the Westing Game?
And also did you like The Giver?

Speaker 1 (11:38):
Of course the Giver wasn't Taylor Swift in The Giver? Giver, Yiver?

Speaker 3 (11:43):
She played an important memory. In The Giver, she.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
Played an important memory and remember his child. It was
an important memory in all of our lives.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
Of course, I think about the Giver because she's a brunette.
In The Giver she is.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
But that's what you think about it, That's what.

Speaker 3 (11:57):
I think about it. Is because she was a brunette
with bang yes and I loved it.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Every time that doesn't get spoken of her Giver era,
it's real culture number thirteen. No one talks about Taylor's
Giver era was so amazing fast.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
It's amazing to be on something that you're a fan
of because I'm watching this thing I love, but I'm here.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
Well just to speak on that. It's funny like because
everyone did the girls rewatch moment and that that had
to feel like which is ongoing. I feel, yeah, well
it's it. Definitely it started. I would have say, like
twenty twenty two, it started to really catch fire, like
we're all rewatching this. But I wonder how it feels
to know that, Like at the time everyone was like,

(12:40):
I don't understand how someone can be in it and
capture it. But as a time capsule it may be
growing into its purpose even more as a time capsule
of that era.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
That is for me the greatest thing because if we
think about it, like I remember jud appata One was
saying to me, you never really we think the most
important moment of anything's life is when it comes out
and the internet's responding people, But actually you don't know
the role that anything plays until it's been.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
In the world for a long time, right.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
Like we all now recognize that My so called Life
is the greatest teen show of all time. It was
canceled after one season. My best friend Matt Wolf did
put together a petition which was signed by over ten
thousand people that to try to get it back on
the air, but shockingly was it. ABC didn't didn't listen
to a fifteen year old head of his gay straight

(13:30):
alliance in San Jose.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
Big problem, and.

Speaker 3 (13:34):
That's a big problem with television because that's who we
need to be serving.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
And we would have had more than one season and
freaking gigs then too.

Speaker 3 (13:42):
Of course we would have had more than one season.
Have been lightened, we would have, But we can't have
nice things.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Here's the thing we were just talking. People are so
so much smarter than they are when they're like, Hi,
I'm promoting a movie and I'm behind it. It's like
they walk off camera and they're like, I don't know about.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
This, yeah, And then they even if it's a hit,
sometimes they don't know about it. Because some things that
hit with culture are actually hitting on like the worst
parts of us, right, and some things, and we now
know that lots of brilliant actors have had to do
things that they So it's just an interesting thing to think, like,
there are things that hit and you go, everyone's talking
about it, but what will be happening in five, ten, fifteen,

(14:22):
twenty years. And when we were making Girls, there were
so much sort of feedback, probably more we had more
people reviewing it than watched it, honestly, and I.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
Believe this and I have discussion. It was something that
was paramount exactly.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
And then it's really nice when something's out of its
discussion phase and now people are just maybe getting to
like watch it in a cozy context, and also they
don't have to be reacting to the reaction to the
reaction or thinking does this define what it feels like
for me to be twenty four? Does this feel like
it reflects? But actually can just engage with it as

(14:58):
what it was. There's some TikTok sound where the girl's like,
she's like, I don't know, I'm just being goofy, and
sometimes they feel about the time, I'm like, I'm just
being goofy. Yeah, And when there's that much discussion, you're like,
and now I think people can maybe go like they
were just being goofy, and actually that's more meaningful in
a way.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
Oh good, because but I think what what Matt's saying
is like you captured it while you were in it,
and I think it's kind of not even kind of
it's completely remarkable that you were able to maintain that
sort of valence throughout despite the discourtillan you just whatever, probably.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
He'll always use valance and like that beautiful.

Speaker 3 (15:38):
It's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
But like the fact that you maintained this throughout. And
I was even lapping in the book where you were
like talking about the last season, you were writing scenes
that made no sense, like you know, Shoshana goes to.

Speaker 3 (15:48):
Goes to a newdist camp because a show is so hard,
and you're like, I'm going to really shock them, and
then you're like, this isn't chocking. Shoshana wandered down the
road to a nudist camp. Feelso true, Rember. There was
a lot of I always knew where I wanted the
show to end from the beginning, which is I wanted
to have a baby latching, but I was like, how

(16:08):
do we get there? And what does that look like?
And there was definitely some crawling around in the mud
to arrive at that. I mean, I remember, just like
it was like a maniacal detective. I had like one
hundred and fifty you know, index cards that I was spread.
I have these pictures of me like sitting in a
sea of index cards on my floor, just being like,

(16:29):
what if we don't I remember one day I was like, Okay,
I have this crazy idea. We don't have a season finale.
We do an episode nine and then we stop. And
they were like, but that would then be this season finale,
and I was like, okay. It's like my father told
me a story about when he did acid for the
first time, and he looked at his friend and said,
what if we raise our children with no egos? And

(16:51):
they thought that they'd like solved in They kind of did,
but you can't necessarily maintain that when you're not on
a heavy dose.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
Of LSDA, And they would have to just make sure
that when the baby came into the world immediately they
give them the same dose exactly. I see, it's a dome.
This is all fake.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
This is all fake. Do a full Truman show. But
I was having a what if we raise our babies
with no egos. What if we just forsake the season
finale b low everybody's mind. Yeah, they're just it's another day,
it's over. Yeah, but you can't game the system that way.

Speaker 2 (17:25):
We all would have arrived at that same exact idea
had we been showed like creating, starring, running a show,
directing episodes of the show while we were at the
tender age of twenty six twenty seven.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
Definitely, reriting the book made me realize how crazy it
is to give jobs of any consequence. And as I again,
another quote from my father always says, there are no
art emergencies, Yeah, because like you know, people love to
act like they're actually Like, my aunt is an emergency
room doctor. Sometimes she would have to treat someone who's

(17:58):
like leg got caught in a subway door. That is emergency. Yeah,
season finale actually not an emergency, but it was still
a job that involved actual interfacing with many people and engaging.
And I'm I just look back and I go, that
is so like I see people are that. Ah, now
you should still be inside your mother's body.

Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah right, yeah, no, that's you should be a Joey
in a kangaroo.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
You should be a Joey in a kangaroo and no
one should let you out till you're thirty two. Yeah,
And so a lot of the book was grappling that.
And what was interesting was I was so judgmental of
myself at the time, and looking back, I was like,
oh my god, Like, they're definitely they're definitely low points.
But there are definitely some moments where I was like,
I should have been nicer to you. You were doing
you were trying so hard and it was going okay.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
And trying actually trying things. I mean, there were moments
in that show where I was like, I would sit
perplexed with it. I remember just being a huge fan
of the show and the first season had come and gone,
and the second season happened, and there's an episode where
your Hannah is at the cemetery and she sits there
and she parrots back a story that someone else had

(19:05):
told about their own grief to someone else, and the
episode ended, and I remember being like, at the time,
I was like, I didn't I didn't like that episode.
I can't believe she did that, and I didn't like
that episode. And then now looking back, I'm like, no,
I think I saw something true, and I think there's
a testament to you putting that out there, even at

(19:29):
that age when you know discourses really tough and you're
judging yourself. There's a lot of checkpoints to get through
when you put on your lead character who's like, you know,
close to yourself doing an ugly thing. And she did
a lot of ugly things, all those characters did.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
I always forget how many ugly things she did. And
then someone was like, oh, I just watched the episode
came up to the Street, and I just watched the
episode where she goes to her boss's funeral and makes
it all about herself. And I was like, she did
that exactly right. You can't go to somebody's funeral that
you don't know well and make it all about yourself.
And I remember that being that the scene in the cemetery. First,
I remember it because I fainted and then the medic said,

(20:09):
I think you're okay because you still have rosiness in
your finger now beds, and I was like, I think
you are a medical professional. I think this on a
TV set on it I was like, I remember he
laid me back and he was like, rosy nail beds.
Check and I was like, this pel's check. I think
we need to get some gatorade in this girl's stat

(20:30):
and I so that is one memory I have with
the others. I remember doing that monologue where she's like,
my cousin had cystic fibrosis and I had to which
was actually a true That story was a true story
about my father's cousin. That is real and sad that
we then gave to Gabby that we then gave to me.
And I remember feeling sick doing the monologue because there

(20:53):
were a couple of things, like there's a scene in
the first season where Hannah tries to seduce her boss
who's sexually harassing her to turn the tables and reclaim
and also tried to like maybe get a bunch of
back pay. She's like, maybe if we fucked, then he'll
have to give me a ton of money. And I
remember the scene and being like, who wrote this for me?
Why am I doing? Why am I? Richard Maser a kind, talented,

(21:17):
seasoned character actor. I'm about to go in and straddle aggressively.
And then I saw him recently because he came and
did a part in my movie, and he was like,
I haven't seen you since that's straddling, But it was
hard sometimes because I was like, also, I knew that
the valance was is it a valance? I knew that

(21:38):
the curtain between how people perceived her and perceived me
it was extremely sheer. So I also knew when I
made those choices, and what I loved thinking about writing
book was also like Zasha, Jemia, Allison all have. I mean,
you've been Alison. She's the most correct. She's hilarious and dirty,

(21:58):
but she's also correct and polite. She wants everything you
need to know about her. She once got tendonitis from
writing too many thank you.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
Notes, and her thank you note writing life, her.

Speaker 3 (22:10):
Thank you not writing life, and she and Zasha is
incredibly smart and thoughtful, and Jemima is her own iconic Roland.
And they were all so down to clown. Yeah, Like
you'd go up to them and you'd be like, today,
today you are going to get your ass eaten by
your friend's boyfriend and they'd be all right, here we go.

(22:32):
The one time I remember, we gave Alice in a
monologue where she was supposed to say that she'd lost
her virginity at fourteen, and she was like what And
I was like, yeah, she lost her virginia when she
was fourteen, and she was like, that doesn't really square
with like how I've been thinking about her very thoughtfully.
She's like, you know, I've been playing her in one way.
And Jemimah came up and she's like, what would you
have been doing if you knew she lost her virginia

(22:53):
at fourteen? Oh, Marnie, And then she did this like
voice of like the alternate Martie who told this because
she lost to virginity at fourteen, and we were just like, Okay,
we're not going to be precious about this, We're just
going to try it. And then she talked about losing
virginia at fourteen and fucking crushed it.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yeah, this is what's going on in my This is
my take on what the person coming up to you saying,
oh I just saw the episode where about the funeral
and this is and with what Matt saying about like,
I don't like what I just saw and then realizing
in hindsight that's me is like I think the show
kind of conveyed this better than anything else in our
for our generation, where it's like the person you hate

(23:33):
the most or the person that annoys you the most
is would be you if they grew up and lived
in your exact same circumstances.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
One I remember my first ever therapist shout out Lisa Spiegel.
She a truly important woman in my life. And I
remember I was talking about a girl that I was
not cool at school and I was like, there's this
one girl and I just can't stand her and every
time she sits near me, and she was like, do
you think maybe you recognize a little bit of yourself

(24:01):
in her? And it was like, I mean, I was nine,
so it was like saying, what if we raise our
kids with no egos? It blew my fucking mind. But
of course, and I've always been interested in I remember
like the first time I saw the British Office, I was, Oh,
you're allowed to do this, Like you're allowed to celebrate
characters who are making insane mistakes. And I love when
a character does not who You know when you meet

(24:24):
someone and they're like, I'm a very empathic person and
you know whatever comes after is not going to be empathic.
Or they say no offense and whatever comes after is
going to offend you.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
How do you know I don't want to hear this then.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
Yeah, one percent, Or when my brother last week started saying,
can I be real for a second a lot? And
I was like, no, I don't like it.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
What are you the other second? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (24:45):
What was happening before? And why is this happening to
me now? But I've always been interested in characters who
see themselves very differently than the rest of the world
sees them, and that gap. And it's interesting also because
people now know that you're not allowed to say It's
the same way that the Daily Mail stopp being allowed
to call you fat, so they had to call you
voluptuous or zef dig or whatever other synonym they could

(25:06):
come up with for what they used to say, which
was like messy, yeah, fat lady m hm. And now
people know that they're not supposed to be angry. If
women are unlikable, there's a new word that is being
used that comes up in notes, Are they rootable?

Speaker 1 (25:26):
Routable? Meaning can we root for them? Is there any
world in which we could want them to succeed?

Speaker 3 (25:31):
Correct? And I do think that is being likable and
being rootable or two different things. But it was also
always really interesting when Girls was on to realize that
people could accept the idea of like Tony soprano, they
could accept the idea of Walter White just like a
girl giving like an errant hand job. Was truly the
biggest societal problem that we had, and I think that
feels very quaint to people now. And also now there's

(25:53):
all the like I have main character syndrome, main I'm
the main character of my own life. Like there's sort
of a celebration of this kind of like delirious selfishness
that before was considered a major character flaw. So I
think there's like more room in the world. It feels
to me it's funny because women have never had more
problems actually, but on television there's space to wild out

(26:15):
just a little bit more.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
I almost feel like people actually think that they I
think people think they love and support women because they
watched television with them in it, and then they convinced
themselves of something, and then the second they turn away,
it's like, well, I've already spent my time thinking and
supporting Yeah, you know what I'm saying. I think it's
so much more prevalent than people, and it is so interesting.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
I mean, they're great theorists who are looking at sort
of like the gap between what we accept in media
and what we accept in the world, and we supported
media and what we support in the world. But it
was interesting because when we were doing Girls, it was
kind of, you know, it was like it was Obama era.
Everything was going to be okay, well try it. We
were on our way up. Everything like there was a
even though of course there was lots of consequence in

(27:01):
the world that I didn't have a full complete understanding
of because I was like inside a sound stage and
didn't know what time it was. There was it felt
like the world was we were going to a women's march,
we were having being sent pussy hats. Everything was happening,
and now there's been a profound backtracking. I don't know
if you remember something called me Too, but I don't

(27:22):
think it happened. It didn't reach a lot of corners
of the world. But we know that we're supposed to
think that women can be naughty on TV, right.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
That that's somehow sustained, It's survived that for fucking.

Speaker 3 (27:41):
And I want that. I want Rachel Wess to be
naughty on TV. Don't get me wrong. Always, That's why
I'm alive.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
No one does it better.

Speaker 3 (27:49):
I mean I was, I was watching her. I mean
direct to camera address from Rachel Weiss. We don't deserve,
We don't deserve. Also, I love how the whole time
she's like, I'm old and ugly and no one will
look at me. And I was like, you're the single
most beautiful woman.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
You're actually a famously iconic for your Like I'll never
forget the first time I saw her in the Mummy movies.
Oh it's OK. That's like an arresting image for all times.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
Like she's almost more so if you're not even attracted
to women, because you go, what am I?

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (28:18):
Right, what am I?

Speaker 1 (28:19):
I know I have questions and they come from.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
You, ms Weiss. But that being said, yeah, she's she's
she's an iconically beautifulman. But at the same time, any
iconically beautiful woman who is over fifty is still dealing
with these same things.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Right, But it's so funny to bring up some jo
except for who Jayla?

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Speaker 1 (29:34):
But I feel like.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
You just had this locus of chaos happening around you
around the time of like this quote unquote Reckoning with
Me Too, where it's like the show ends, this relationship
is on its is on the outs, like all these
these things about your body are sort of coming to
light for you.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
Like that's that.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
That was My takeaway from the book was just like, oh,
how are you writing this with in such clear, gorgeous
detail while you're talking about how you are in this
like long dissociated stay and how you've grown up with
like these little flashes of dissociation and like hospital feeling
your hospital, like you for something is going on with

(30:19):
me and I'm ignoring my basic needs while I'm making
the show in the name of ambition and all these things.
And I have to prove something right about the way
the world sees me and sees the show now that
like the dust is settled, Like I hope you're so
proud of everything.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
That is a beautiful thing to say, and thank you.
And I think the thing that was really lovely about
writing the book was I had a really long time
to do it. I mean, I wrote my first book
in eight months. I wrote this book in eight years.

Speaker 1 (30:46):
Which we also loved.

Speaker 3 (30:47):
Thank you, thank you so much. And and I don't
only want I didn't want to do it for the
sake of you know, there's I've been asked to do,
like do a girl's rewatch podcast, get Together with the Girls,
And I mean, people love nostalgia, and I love nostalgia.
And like, do I want to watch the whole cast
of OC respond to episodes of the OC? Yes, I do,

(31:08):
t Donovan, I want to watch tit donovan watch anything,
but I'm interested in like forward motion and forward progression,
and so I haven't Maybe there will be a time
when I go I'd like to live watch every episode
of Girls, but I haven't gotten in the yet. But
I only wanted to write the book if I felt
like I had something to say about the larger machine
in which women are working, in which people are working

(31:30):
about like the larger I do think that Hollywood is
a microcosm, and it reflects the way the industry works,
the way that we see people reflect things that exist
in a lot of parts of the world, because it's
like where the the center, it's our It's interesting because
Hollywood is very kind of comparatively small industry where where

(31:51):
we have chosen to center our attention. It's a distraction,
it's a it's an indulgence, but it also has something
bigger to say about the way that we live. And
so I only wanted to write the book if I
felt like I had something to say about all of
that and about while also being hopefully thoughtful about the

(32:12):
fact that like a tiny thousand tiny violins play for
the girl who's like my TV show was too.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Hard, but.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
So thank you for saying that, and I it was
interesting to realize how much I did do I had
always had my talk about in the book. I'd always
had dissociated episodes throughout childhood. The more that my life
picked up and the more stress was involved, the more
they happened. But I think at the time I thought
ignoring your basic needs was correct. I thought, like, if
you're really good at being a person, you can suppress

(32:43):
and override everything that you need in order to be
comfortable for the city. And you know, we've all been
sent a million signals about what ambition, what's important, what
ambition means, what you know, who we have to be
in this sort of in I'm about to say, under capitalism,
send me to jail, but.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
And so capitalist in jail.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
Yeah, send me to capitalist jail. Send me to a
private prison, sorry, where they'll treat me the way I've
always treated myself. But but I want to tell you
that something is happening inside me. Not a bad way,
good way. But I just kind of like, my nipples
aren't wreck But I did stand at attention.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
You felt the free song?

Speaker 3 (33:26):
Yeah, Like there's a is there a moment when you're
drinking yourself you go, it's on. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. It's
a little bit like when you try drugs with deference
for your first time and you go, is it working
on you? Is it working on you? It's working? And
also because I'm sober and now thanks to you, this
one vape free?

Speaker 1 (33:45):
Oh is this where we is this where we entree
into this discussion. I was just going to say one
one more before we do that. I just want to
say that the one thing about girls that that it's
so much of it terrified me at the time because
I was like, I'm I think I'm feeling comfortable because
it's me. A lot of it was Marny, I know,
are you a Marnie? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (34:04):
What are you?

Speaker 1 (34:05):
I think I'm I'm probably a show.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
I was going to say that, yeah, And you know,
I've been public about the fact that I'm a shosh.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
You're and you told us this, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
I'm a show, you're a I've grown into a shosh.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah. It's kind of like it's not to not to invoke.
But it's like with the Hogwarts houses. My whole thing
was like, listen, I was born a gryffindor yep. In
my twenties, I was a Slytherin. Right now, I'm a
huffle puff. I will die a raven claw, you know
what I mean. Like it's like that's sort of what
it feels like. It's like that with the girls.

Speaker 3 (34:39):
Girls, well, well like in my in high school, I
was a Charlotte yea. Then I turned into a Samantha. Yes,
had a moment thinking I was a Carry and I
will be a Miranda for the rest of my life.
But even maybe up to the part where she gets
together with cha. You know, yeah, I think we can't.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
We can't rule it out.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
Been is maybe a chay uh huh uh huh. He
doesn't want to hear that.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Who does He's fingering you in the kitchen.

Speaker 3 (35:08):
I it could, it could happen.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
I want me to talk about your marriage.

Speaker 3 (35:12):
I'm sorry when you said it, I was almost like
I was almost like, let's call him, Like, I don't know,
I'd love to talk about my marriage. But you know,
we're five years saying things really things really settle in,
they're simmering.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Yeah, I guess what. I what I'm what was the
big pull for me at the end when I was
like really sitting with it and then the rewatch too.
I confirmed. I was like, Wow, you don't stay friends
with everyone forever. And the fact that.

Speaker 3 (35:35):
Pil Robbins calls it the Great Scattering.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yes, yeah, the Great Scattering. She does call it that.
But that whole last season is kind of about like
them realizing that I imagine, like you know what I mean,
Like they're they're moving into their different lives, like all
of a sudden, there's something solidifying hearing you didn't know
what was coming now, but it is coming now in
this sadness that comes with that, not even the acceptance
of the idea that you might have to accept it,

(35:59):
And that I think is one of the truest things
about the show.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
I don't know about you, but I held on really tight.
I was really scared for the Great Scattering. I held on.
I mean, I think my friends and I talked to
each other in our twenties. If I look back, it's
like people in a relationship, it's like we're act It's
like I feel like it's been a little strange lately,
and you're not responding to me the way and it's like, now,

(36:23):
I would never say that to a friend in a
fucking million years, because I'm like, what happen. You've got
a big, complicated life. We're all trying to just get
through this thing, and it's what happens. And you know,
the show was also interesting because it was all about
these friendships, but I was also literally always on set.
So the friendships I talk about this, the friendships that

(36:43):
it was about, were then affected by the fact that
I wasn't around, and then was it was this big.
It was like I went to sleep one day and
then or like stepped onto this into Hannah's apartment one day,
and then I got out when I was thirty and
I was like, I'm back, guys, and they were all like,
we're pregnant. Yeah, like you are looking for a boyfriend

(37:06):
on Delancey Street. Were pregnant and I was like, anybody
want to hear about my hysterectomy And they're like, we
are wearing clogs in Brooklyn together. And I remember being
like going to visit my friends and being like, I'm
that weird aunt lady that's like comes in and she's like,
I've brought you guys scarves.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
I was, well, I was traveling and you know what
that means, Yes, little gifts gifts for everyone.

Speaker 3 (37:33):
My mom had a friend. My mom had has a
lot of wonderful, eccentric friends, but I remember she had
one friend who didn't have kids who came over once
because she wanted to take some photos of our hairless
cat to work into a video art piece. Naturally, yes,
And she was wearing like full issy Miyaki pleats please,
and she I saw a tattoo on her hand and
she was like she was. I loved her partially because

(37:55):
she was the only chubby woman that I really knew,
because downtown was not rife with those, but all so
she was writing a Semiaki pleats please, and I said,
I like your tattoo, and she said, do you want
to see my others? And she dropped her pants and
she had like a full uh like constellation of all
of the constellations on her like big beautiful ass on

(38:17):
her ass. And I was like, that's what I want
to be. I would never drop my pants in front
of a child.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
No, I want that to be the If you did,
you'd be her.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
If I did, that was a different time, but if
I but I do. I got comfortable with the idea
of like I'm going to come in to take a
picture of your hairless cat for a video art piece,
and you're going to say, do you and there you're
going to say, what's that tattoo? And I'm going to say,
I've made some mistakes, and it's just a.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Matter I've made some mistakes.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
It's just a matter of if your friends want to
stick around for that, you know what I mean. Like,
I think The Show Girls is about a friendship, a
group of friends sort of. I mean, friendship is in
tropic it's like it's it's just inevitable. And I think
that's what the book is about. It's about like a
friendship sort of sort of splitting up. And that's that's
kind of that's like the most universal thing you can

(39:04):
write about.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
I remember once saying to my mom, like, it's so sad.
I used to know all these people that I don't
know anymore. And she's like, that's called being alive. Like
she was like, have you ever heard of like Judith
Garrigan And I was like no, and she's like, well
she was my best friend till you were three. Yeah,
and then she drank a lot. There's that's an instance.
And I still look I used.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
To look another human being in the eyes and say
we will die together. I haven't spoken to them in
thirty years.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yes, by the.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Way, we don't speak outside of this representatives.

Speaker 3 (39:33):
And the thing about whether your friends want to stick
around for that, Like, that's one of the reasons I
think I've had such prolonged and beautiful friendships with queer
men is because because since my life didn't nessarily conform
to some of the milestones that I thought it would right,
being friends with people who had a different idea about
what family and adulthood could mean was like deeply important

(39:56):
to me.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Yeah, there was commonality there where. Yeah, you may have
tried to find it somewhere else.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
I thought that I was supposed to be And by
the way, I love all those women and they are
still my friends. But I thought I was supposed to
be in Bushwick but have moved out of the smaller
place into the townhouse and be wearing the clogs. And
actually I was supposed to be at the Essulon resort
in the Hot Springs with a buff acupuncturists.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yeah, of course, yes, shout out to Russell. I just yeah,
I just feel like it's just in terms of like
the way you write character, it's like obviously there's a
couple huge The book is really about like relationships, and
there's two relationships that you just you lose by the
end of the book. But what I wanted to say was,

(40:45):
you've always created some of the best characters of our generation.
But the way that you write these people in your life,
it's like such a beautiful thing, a testament to the
place that they held in your life. And I feel like,
if you have anything in you and I'm sure you do,
I'm positive you do, which is like nervous about how

(41:05):
they're going to receive it, which of course you are
going to because.

Speaker 3 (41:08):
Of course, whenever you make something, you make it for
like two people, and they're probably the two people who
won't even look at it. That's life.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
But the thing is like, the way you've written them
is so beautiful. Because what I love about what you do,
even if sometimes you were fighting with yourself, because you
might feel a different way about these two people on
any given day, it's like it feels like you always
held true to I'm going to try and three sixty
flesh this person out as much as you can, because
you know, with these relationships like Jenny and Jack, you

(41:35):
get a sense of both their humor, you get a
sense of both their positive oddities. You get a sense
of them on all of their best days.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
They're the two funniest, most special, and most defining relationships
of twenty to thirty. I mean, your first romantic relationship
where you feel deeply understood is like the most precious
thing that can ever exist. You're like, oh, I thought
I really had a crush on that guy and tenth grade,
but this is a whole the first time you make
a life with someone, the first best, real adult best

(42:04):
friend you have. And I hoped that I could show
like why I fell in love with them, Yeah, and
also that it couldn't. I was quoting Casey musk Graves
too earlier, saying that when she got divorced, did it's
a sole connection that didn't work out?

Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (42:18):
And that doesn't I think like love is. I think
if you love someone really deeply. Firstly, we know that
if when two people get divorced or something and they're
like I fucking hate them, You're like, that's because you
were obsessed with them, and your obsession had to energy
cannot be created or destroyed, and therefore it had to
transmute into something, and my goal has always been not
to have that transmute into something negative. And also, if

(42:41):
I didn't feel that deep love for them, I'd have
to do this like grand erasure of all these memories.
And I remember I dated one person after my breakup
and it was like a quick it was one of
those four month like four months that could have been
fifty years. Yeah, and afterwards I deleted all the photos
and it's the one time I've done that, and I
regret it because it's like there's this hole in my

(43:02):
life that I just in this moment of rash. Maybe
you can call Tim Cook and he can get them back.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
Yeah, honestly, he's got them. I did the same thing
I did it with I did it with text messages
and a lot of photos. And I go back and
forth now on whether or not that was the right
thing to do.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
It was the right thing for you in the moment
because you knew that you were not you could.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
Not trust yourself with them because I was obsessing, Yes,
And I think that like.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
You were self harming through nostalgia.

Speaker 1 (43:31):
That's really what it was. And I knew in the
moment that that's what it had become. And so I
was like, I think in order to set myself free
from this, I have to do this. But as someone
who does you know, see value in looking back and
being like, oh, and also just like the way you
talk positively and the way you draw up what it

(43:51):
feels like to finally get comfortable in a relationship, like
actually made me look back on like one particular X
that I you know, kind of have exclusively like hard
feelings about, yeah, and reading what you wrote about like
an old relationship, and I was like, oh, like one
good thing I can say is like I really like
like being silly with him, Like I was thinking something

(44:13):
when I was reading your words. It's like, oh, that
person when someone sees you silly, what's so funny? The
movement of it, all the moments that you give each
other and like you know, it's like it's it's it's
you're you can't replicate that.

Speaker 3 (44:27):
And I I was once just I was at the
Toronto Film Festival in one of the places that I've
been in my life. I don't know what to say,
and I ran into my ex boyfriend. I was with
my husband and he was watching in the Tolianail's way.
He was like, you guys were being so funny together. Yeah,
and you just get back into this, like in a way,

(44:47):
when you've had a long term relationship with someone, especially
through a very pivotal moment in your life, there's things
that they will only like there's certain facts about my aunts,
particular my aunts Bonnie and Susan, who are very important
complex female characters, and I will something will happen with
Monny and she's gonna be like, this is the only
person who could possibly understand how.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Funny do you reach out?

Speaker 3 (45:08):
Sometimes I think that it's I don't like to have
a blockade, and you know, I try to do it
in appropriate doses. I'm not like, I'm not like, hey
came across this photo of us really made me think,
I think that's aggressive. That's aggressive from a psychotic and
I'm totally capable of that. I just have to reel

(45:30):
it in, you know, like that there's a part of
me that could one hundred percent be like there's funny
things that you go this is a value that we
remember this and it's I remember when my father's my
father's parents died and then his brother died and he
was like, there's nobody else who remembers what it was
like to be in my family. First, he kept saying
I'm an orphan, and I was like, okay, you're You're seventy,

(45:51):
So I don't know if you get to claim that title.
Everyone wants a title these days. And that's the thing is,
it's really beautiful to have people who remember, even if
they remember differently. And my goal in the book was
to show how much they meant and how much love
there is that still exists for them will also and

(46:12):
I'm sure that someone could give their account and it
would be the same events but with an extremely different
I mean, that's the amazing thing about the world is
like we're all looking through our own eyes. I'm on acid.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
No, no, but I think we're on acid too. I'm
like it's called But there was also so much in
like your your working relationship, in close close, close friendship
with Jenny that like I texted B and I was like,
are you it's about relevant thing?

Speaker 3 (46:41):
Well, I think the thing that I've learned, and I
mean those creative relationships that were so intense, they were
like marriages, they were like all these it was like
I was it was like I was in a polyamorous relationship.
I mean it was, and in a way I look
back and I'm like, that was my primary relationship, and
then I had a secondary relationship, which was a boyfriend,

(47:03):
and then a tertiary relationship which was my dad, And
so that is, Oh, that's a wild thing to look
back on. And and creative relationships you two know really well,
require just as much, if not more, emotional maintenance. Like
when you're married to a straight man, there's so much
that you just don't even have to say, Like, my brother,

(47:25):
it must be so relaxing to be married to a
straight guy because they like are not really picking up
on anything. You don't have to like it's.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Like whenever nothing means more than it does.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
That's exactly right. When I remember around queer couple are
like you moved your eyebrows, or you're feeling a little
bit destabilized, and like you can just hide in your
own house for days with a straight man.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
The studying of punctuation, forget it.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
It doesn't mean anything.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
If a if a queer man or woman like like
is texting you in a punction in a like punctuation
way that order, I'm like, oh, something is deeply wrong.

Speaker 3 (47:58):
Oh yeah, no, it's my husband will just send a
text that he doesn't it's just one word, inexplicable word,
because he hasn't looked back. And I will look back
at a text and be like, did I say what
I meant to say? The mount of text I edit.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
Send the respiti Leston.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
He just sent me a picture of a broken window
in our house with zero explanation, and I was like,
were we robbed? And he was like, no, no, it
was a wind issue. And I was like, you need
to lead with that. But in the relationship with another woman,
specifically the amount that you're picking up, it's like this
insane It's like whatever's traveling between machines at the Apple headquarters.

(48:38):
It's like this insane level of information and subtlety. And and
also in creative relationships, you're in each other's heads in
a different way.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
I've been your smartest with that person.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
They know they've been your smartest. You've been your dumbest
in the middle of the night. You've been your most petulant,
you've been your most elegant, you've been your most brave,
all of it. It's really amazing, and I think they
require a very specific kind of careen maintenance, and that's
why I'm sending you two to Esther prol oh B.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
During the therapy scene, I was like, because we've talked
like at particular moments, there have been like, well maybe
we should see a counselor or a therapist like or
someone that, and then we land on like mediator, you
know what I mean. It's like those things where like
you know the relationship like needs something, but you're not

(49:29):
ready to say what kind of person, And then you're
like kind of filtering through the stand of like well,
what is the difference between these Like.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
Maybe it should just be a friend who likes us
both to talk it through.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
But then that just to save on like the explanation.

Speaker 3 (49:44):
Just you can, but but it there is something. I mean. Also,
going to therapy with somebody that you work with is
a big choice because you go, Okay, I'm really proclaiming
the significance of this dynamic because we're in a therapist's
office together, so you two have never been to therapy
together yet.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
No, we've gotten far along in the process, but then
inevitably things pop up and we're like, Okay, we got
to address this and we will be twogether and we can.
We can, we're we can work this out ad hoc
as necessary.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
We can work this out amongst ourselves.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
Until until we really need to. Like my therapist says,
she doesn't think we need it.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
By the way, I trust that.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
And also it seems to me as a passionate viewer,
that you're doing fine. I'm not picking up on any
tension right now.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
It's not like, okay, great. What I will say is
that whenever there is a period of tension, it does,
it breaks, and it blows, and we're always literally fifty
times better afterwards. I sometimes wish it didn't have to
get there, but I also think that we get better
at communicating every time, and as we know, that's what

(50:50):
it is all about.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
Well, so it is all about that. And I don't
know about you. I am extremely conflict avoidant except for
I saw this. I don't love it. I saw a
meme that was like this man did something and he's
out to see the woman that only my father knows.
And that's truly like the I think if you have
a as a woman, if you have a comfortable it
should be like I have yelled in a way that's
like blown the hair back on his head.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
Oh forget it, and I.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
Can't do it with and he said to me before,
he's been like, you need to go in there and
act like you act with me, like a fucking bitch,
like and but it's really hard. And I think one
of the reasons I love writing conflict like I've never
been in a four way scream off like happened at
the beach House. I would pass out, I would dissociate,
I would go to another plane of existence.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
I remember the first time it happened with you and Allison,
and I guess it was the penultimate episode of one.

Speaker 3 (51:37):
You are the Wound. Yeah, you are the wound Bruce
err Kaplan's great line, you are the wound. And I
remember doing it and feeling sick even doing the scene,
because I was like, I don't want to yell at
you like this. I love you difference, Yeah no, and
you're about You're like, this is feels horrible, But then
also it's so fun to do because you're like, this
is a world in which I somehow feel comfortable screaming

(51:58):
in my friend's face and telling her all these things
that I used to always say to like anyone who
would I'd be like, and then I was like And
then I was like and they'd be like, did you
actually say it that stuff? And I was like, no,
I was light.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
I was like, oh, no, You're always You're always in
You're always like truly, truly, truly like a Kate Blanchette
performance in your mind with someone else like oh, or
like like like Shonda Rhymes on the Best Seasons of
Grays turning to someone and being like, I'm giving it
to you exactly succinctly, And I can feel proud of

(52:31):
the way I expressed.

Speaker 3 (52:32):
One of the great moments of my life, despite the
fact that my wig on Scandal was not ideal, is
that I delivering a Shonda Rhymes monologue and it was like, yes,
I am a woman who loves sex, but am I
a slut? No? And it was like, I did deliver
it to beautiful Carrie Washington all my might, and then
of course I had to get my throat slick because

(52:52):
I was a slut. You died on that, Yeah, Huck
killed me.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Huck killed you for the sin of being a slap
broad slip because you were a slut.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
Huck killed me because I was about to kill someone else.
Then who was trying to kill.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
Me getting killed by is hot though.

Speaker 3 (53:07):
Damn it was amazing. I had a backpack of blood
and then they made this thing and suddenly there was
like a man who pulled a thing and blood skirted
from my neck.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
So fun my parent died on screen.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
I want to I've died twice in a in scandal, yeah,
and in American horror story. And when I died in
American horstory, I rotted from the inside. And what it
involved was I was supposed to have maggots in my eyes,
so they glued my eyes shut and covered them in
white rice. And then there was a pa. Who's this

(53:42):
person deserved? I mean, whoever you are, I couldn't see you,
so I'm sorry, but I'm going to speak directly to you.
Thank you for what you did. I want to thank you.
You led me around by the back so gently all
day long, making sure I didn't trip over any scenery
while I rotted from many angles. Here's a guy for everything, said,

(54:03):
Here's a guy for everything.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
I'm speaking of dying but not the vaping. Okay, what
do you want to say here?

Speaker 3 (54:09):
Here's what I want to say. We're on a text chain.
We do want to revote. What it's called.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
Uh, it's called life is so? Which is it is
just so? Just so? Which is which is a word?

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Which is another gorgeous turn a phrase by miss Lena Unman.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
Thank you so much. I believe because we were at
Apple and I just went, life is just so, and
then you created a text chain and then it's just
so so We're on life is just so, and I
just I like sometimes if I feel like they're too far,
I just like to pop in and it's the boys
appreciate it. Mind them that I'm there. And I said,
how are you? And you let me know that you
had been going through an experience with someone you were

(54:45):
dating who phraser. I'm allowed to say it.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
We can bring, we can.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
Invoke so phrase had an incident that a vaping induced
lung infection evil.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
So basically what happened was and some people might not
know this, but so Fraser was he was a vape artist. Yes,
and like so many out there.

Speaker 3 (55:06):
Yeah, and basically medium, the.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
The the the cartridge essentially like this can happen when
you're sucking on them.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
Listen, I'm going to look at the camera again.

Speaker 1 (55:18):
Listen to this man, the the like oil from the
vape cartridge can basically leak into your lungs and it's poison.
And so when we were at Bravo Con and I
can say this because he has said all of it
and this is all about his health and its public
and I would never share anything if he hadn't been
public about it. But we were at Bravos Medical Records,
Melissa and I were there, and we were all there together.

(55:40):
I was actually announcing that the culture Wars are coming back.
He was obviously there for Below Deck. It was exciting, and.

Speaker 3 (55:46):
Then momvo con.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
You know, I wasn't even going with the idea of like,
and we're going to take a photo on the carpet.
He wanted to take a picture together. I was like,
let's do it. I put it on my Instagram. Then
all of a sudden, that very weekend, people were like, oh,
Matt and Fraser are dating. As that was happening, And
I know this is going to sound dramatic. He had
a heart attack in front of him.

Speaker 3 (56:06):
It doesn't sound dramatic. It's traumatic, is there? It is?

Speaker 1 (56:09):
And I feel like what people don't know is it's
like if you were if you know, you obviously know
because it's horrifying and it's hard to explain, but you
don't know a heart attack is happening every time. It's
like he was he had very intense chest pains and
like couldn't get comfortable, and you know, it was short
of breath and had to bail on the whole night
with us, and we checked in on him later and
it was ongoing, and so I'm thinking, like, is this

(56:32):
stress and anxiety whatever. We find out much later after
tests come in that essentially because of this poison not
got in his lungs, he had what was the equivalent
of a heart attack and it and it was really bad,
and we were in the hospital until five five point
thirty in the morning. We really had only been dating
for about three months.

Speaker 3 (56:52):
Which is also really intense because it certainly hull lesbians
things up a bit.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
Oh, So we were already like really enjoying being together
and then there was this health stuff that entered, and
so that like accelerated things. And you know, now where
we're at is he was he's off. I can't say where,
but he's you know.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
Created had a secret topical location.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
Yeah, he's creating the television program many people like and
I'm going to see him soon. But while he's been
gone and I've been sort of busy doing my own thing,
we kind of did like take a little bit of
space just because of how intense everything had gotten and
like personal.

Speaker 3 (57:30):
Things, and you had to go into caretaker mode. And
he's grappling with this terrifying change to his body and
it's it's really intense. And you shared just the littlest
thank you for sharing, and you shared just a littlest
snippet with me.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
Yeah, And I didn't know you had been addicted to
the to the oh.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
When we were at Apple, I didn't have my babe
because I was trying to be elegant. And do you
remember we got in the car, I was like sweating,
Like I was like, can someone get a gas station?
Can someone find a gas stop to stop? Because I
had been off the vape for like twenty four hours
and I was losing my mind, so I didn't I
was a l I l a live a late in
life vapor vapor. I started vaping on the set of

(58:12):
a little television show called Industry because yea, I was
directress of the pet but also it was it was
in whales. People love to party in whales.

Speaker 1 (58:20):
Yeah. I had been about English people.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
You know about English people, hello Frazer. They love sucking
those things. And a friend was like, oh, you don't drink,
you don't smoke your sober. You know what this is?
This It tastes like candy. It doesn't do anything to
you except put you in a great mood. Like literally,
it was handed to me like it was a ring.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
Pop. Yeah. And then and it looks like a toy.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
It looks like a toy. It lights up, it makes noises,
And I went, great, am I anxious all the time? Sure?

Speaker 1 (58:48):
Do?

Speaker 3 (58:48):
I like to do thing with my hands? Absolutely? And
I became a person who would like wake up with
my vape under my pillow. And I was not proud
of it. I was embarrassed about it. I used to
like hide it in my sleeve during me I mean,
it was really became like a pacifier. And I had this.
I stopped. I started, I'm also a chronically ill person.
I have no business, I mean, I have practically no

(59:09):
business drinking Celsius. This is the craziest thing I've done
in months. We're so sorry, No, it's I love it.
I locked yup, but I was in this on off relationship,
I stopped. I started for one minute. I was like,
you know what would be healthier than vaping rolled cigarettes?
That's insane. But I was married to an english Man,
so and he quit and I still couldn't it was

(59:32):
and I kept. I was in a shame cycle with
the vape and I was sitting there just sucking on
my vape, texting my boys, and you said this, and I,
because I am dramatic, I literally took the vape and
I dropped it into a cup of water so that
I couldn't retrieve it. And I went to day's the
day it stops. And I've not taken a puff since
it's been Thank you so much. But you did that

(59:55):
for me because everyone else is like popcorn lung it's
a little abstract. We don't know what happens.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
You can understand heart attack, and I've never understood it
more than when it was happening in front of me.

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
And also I could feel the urgency, and you said
to me, I'll never forget you go. These things are
so much more evil than we know. We don't even
know the beginning of it. His lungs look like a
seventy year old man's and I just want I want
no part of this. And I have to say the
first week, it was the week of Thanksgiving, and my
family had all chosen to assemble without me, do it

(01:00:27):
that but you will, oh, okay, No, they were on.
They were on various little.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
And and give you for yourself phantom grab all day.

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Every day I'd reach for to my pocket. But I
spent the week alone sweating it out, which needed to
happen because I am generally a pretty I have my issues,
but I'm a good mood girl, like I don't take
my moods out on other people. I was raised in
a house where I was like, if you're in a
bad mood, you better turn yourself back around, missy and
come back out here with a smile, because we who

(01:00:56):
puts the shoes on your feet?

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
Fix your face culture?

Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
Yes, it was a my father's a wasp. It was
fix your face culture. And so I don't And I
was in a kind of mood. It was a synthetic,
nasty mood yep, and that could not be controlled.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
Because the nefairy thing about these things is that they
were meant originally to help you quit smoking cigarettes.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
And now yesterday, I saw a girl in the bodega
and she was crying because her credit card wasn't working
and she wanted her vabe yeah, and she was like
twenty three. And I did pay for it because I
was like, I can't watch you in this kind of pain.
But I said to her, you gotta.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
Stop, yeah, because look at you, look at your life,
look at your choices.

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
Correct. And I also said gets ins, gets lozenges, but
also anything that makes you cry in the bodega, Like
there's nothing I want in the bodega that if I
can't get it, I'm gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
I'm reduced to tears.

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
Yes, And I don't want to live that way.

Speaker 1 (01:01:48):
Be for yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
I don't want to live that way. I don't know
it that way.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
I also got to say, like he has remained off
the babe, he's doing so much better. I'm going to
see him.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
Does he use lozenges or anything? He's gone told.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
What's crazy about those British people? It's stiff upper fucking done.

Speaker 3 (01:02:08):
Quit smoking. I was like, do you want to do
a patch doing this? And he was like that is
for pussy. He used to pain.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
He was like he was it was so if you
know Fraser from the show. It was so Fraser. It
was right then it's over. It was just like it's done,
and he loved the thing. Like, I mean, like, but
and I have to say the then as someone's like
boyfriend in that moment. I think it might make it

(01:02:37):
easier too, when you have someone that's like, hi, like
I'm here too. This like really was scary character to me.
And I do think there is a degree of like,
all of a sudden, it's like that zoom out thing.
It's like football, right, you zoom out, you look.

Speaker 3 (01:02:51):
At it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
Crazy? Yeah, well yeah, but I guess my thing to be,
you know, negative on football is like you zoom out
as an alien looking on the world and you're like,
what do they do? Doesn't seem exactly right? Like many
forms of like you know, uh, government things like that. Yeah,
like if we all were to just zoom out the
zooming out that happens when you look at people sucking
on a little machine of smoke of tr right there,

(01:03:15):
you'll be like, well, I look crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
My husband was a smoker roommate. He saw me with
the vape. He goes, it looks like you're plugged into
a us B like you have to go back to
your USB to charge every five minutes, Like you look
like a demented robot. And it's interesting. The thing you
said about going this is really scary for me because
the only thing that affected my behavior in my twenties
when I was not healthy and not making choices to

(01:03:38):
be healthier, was my family looking at me after I'd had,
you know, a terrifying ince in the husband. That was
scary for us. And if I love people, you don't
want them to suffer.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
Well, you're moving through the world completely aware of your
body and like I'm starting to be well, like and
you're hearing this thing that phrase went through and you're like,
it's done.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Totally, drop it in the water.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
Drop it in the water, never look at it again.
It was green, and it was green. And I think
about her every day, And when I see people vaping,
I think, I hope that you have fun, and I
hope you A woman once said to me, a powerful
one said when I quit smoking, she said, I didn't
judge myself. I thanked myself for what it gave me.
And I do think those years do I think it

(01:04:23):
was good that I vaped for six years on and off,
on and off. No. Do I think that during that
time I needed something to stop like darker impulses. Probably yes.
And now I'm like training wheels are off, the vape
is gone, but I do have stuffed animals.

Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
Of course.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
The woman who would she say, I think I think
everyone it gave me. And that woman was Marie Kondo.
And that woman wait, I was gonna say, oh, but
this is like when a total fucking stranger tells you, hey,
I watched girls, I read your book, and I think
you have eds.

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
That was the craziest it. It was so crazy, a
total stranger wrote to me. I had been. It's the
zoom out I had been, and it was exactly right.
Everything she said. It was like reading my it. She
literally her name is Marjorie. She literally made my life
make sense to me because I had had my entire

(01:05:17):
childhood had all of these weird symptoms like you're running
in dodgeball and your need dislocates and your teacher's like,
how did you do that? Nobody touched you? You know,
I was like I was the constantly there was if
there was anyone had a cold at school, like, within
you know, six hours, I was going down. I had migraine,
and starting when I was seven, I had really strong
I used to faint when I had to be when

(01:05:39):
I was in the sun, which my grandma loved because
once I fainted in the customs line in Mexico and
we got to skip, and she said, I'll never forget.
She said, can you do that again, customs. But what
was amazing was I had been I knew I had endometriosis,
and I had been writing about my health, which involved
more symptoms, and also there were times I had to

(01:06:00):
pause life for my health, and this woman had been
paying attention. She said, even the way that you run,
the way that your skin flushes, it all makes sense,
and sent me to this doctor at Johns Hopkins. And
now there's more awareness about there's both more awareness about
Baylor dan Low syndrome, other sort of autoimmune illness, the
intersection between these things and udometriosis. There's increasing sort of

(01:06:24):
people in the medical field to understand. But it was
also a huge moment for me because I was, like,
you know, a Jewish girl who was raised to be
like the doctor's always right, that was who you respected.
In My grandfather's great shame was that he was a dentist,
not a doctor, because he had not been able to
afford like that much schooling, and so he loved to
be doctor Samuel Simmons, but he felt shame about the

(01:06:46):
kind of doctor that he was. Andy Kaufman's orthodontist. O, wow,
his teeth anyway, I keep going. My grandpa wasn't really
keeping it doing cosmetic. He was doing like, does one
of your teeth go out like that?

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
Yeah? Then all put it back? Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
He there was a thing in our house which was
you were never supposed to let him look in your
mouth because if you had a loose tooth, you would
rip it out. And so my mom would always be like,
whatever we do when we get to pass over, do
not open your mouth for grandpa. Because his thing was just.

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
Like, come on, let's go. Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
And he had his office in the house and his
tools were upstairs.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
So I got to say, there's something about an in
home dental or doctor thing, which no, I trust it more.
I'm like, this is the center of your life, literally,
so you must be carrying down.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
So do you know who the Central Orthodontic Central Dental
practices in Great Neck Long Island between the period of
nineteen forty five and nineteen.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
Eighty three, doctor sam Simmons.

Speaker 3 (01:07:54):
Doctor Samuel Simmons and the patriarch from capturing the Freedmen's
and those were the to war.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
It remind me, do.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
You remember the documentary about the family that end up
maybe being predatory monsters. It was like the first Andrew
Jureki documentary. I watched it at Angelica. Nicole Kidman was
sitting in front of me at the theater, and it's
about this family that potentially it's unclear whether they committed

(01:08:22):
sort of like mass acts of pedophilia or whether there
was a sort of like satanic panic moment that happened.
I'm sure that you end up kind of really siding,
of course with the victims. But he was this orthodontist
who kind of seemed like he had this really perfect
family and then it disintegrates. And his son was Bobo

(01:08:44):
the Clown, the premier party clown of downtown Manhattan. So
he used to do birthday parties. And the father was
the other orthodontist in Great Neck. And of course when
all of this came out, my grandfather was king.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Of course, I have to say, and this is the
biggest compliment I could get that story sounds like a
limited series starring Matthew Reese.

Speaker 3 (01:09:03):
That's so nice.

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
Well, she's the best compliment I watched.

Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
Capturing the Freedman's I've never seen anyone nod as emphatically
as Nicole Kidman ahead of me in the theater in
the Angelic.

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
She was just excited to be in the theater.

Speaker 3 (01:09:18):
She loves it. I can still remember what the light
looked like pouring on her beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
Yes, she's just studying. She sat here just days ago.

Speaker 3 (01:09:25):
I know, I know I listened, wasn't It.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
Really was a transfer when she saw my the lit
tunes on my shirt and couldn't handle herself for forty
five seconds.

Speaker 3 (01:09:35):
I can't imagine anything better than making Nicole Kidman happy.
It was wonderful, except for making till just went and smile,
which I did once once.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
So we need to get her.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
I do I have a photo? I don't do. I'm
sure you're the same, which is I don't do a
lot of celebrity approaches. I'm always shocked by of course, Yeah,
when it comes out of me right, Like one time
I saw Janice Dickinson at the Sunset Tower and I screamed,
you mean everything.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
Oh, I love that part of the book.

Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
You think you know that? Recently I facetimed jud and
he had facetimed me, and I was in bed, sweaty mass.
He goes, lean, I'm a little busy right now, passes
the phone to Glenn Powell. Oh, Glenn Powell for pretty
much no feelings the masculinity radiating from the screen. Do
you want to know what I did? I went like this, Oh,

(01:10:27):
you're my number one movie star? What happened?

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
Who is she?

Speaker 3 (01:10:32):
What's going on? And Glenn Peal's like, thank you? That's
so sweet? And then I go, ain't no set like
a Jedd Apato set.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
It's it's so liked LI told.

Speaker 3 (01:10:42):
No lies told. But what's she doing?

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:10:44):
I think, why is she?

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
Something else took over?

Speaker 3 (01:10:47):
That's exactly what happened. And that's usually when I approach
the celebrity, it's something else takes over. I learned the
hard way because I once approached theater character actress legend
Jackie Hoffman in a bodega and that's said, you were
incredible in kissing Jessica Stein. She went oh ow, and
I went, I'm never doing that again.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
Yeah, but you know what, you had the right idea,
which was to not approach with the most popular things
she's done. You approach with the thing that's going to
hit them in the heart the most. Like when I
met Queen Latifa and three people in front of me
said I loved you in Chicago, and I went up
to her and said, I loved you in Life Support,
which was her aid's drama on HBO. If you don't
think you said so much, baby, and she.

Speaker 3 (01:11:30):
Probably was, like, that means everything to me. One time,
when I was at Esslyn, my favorite place in the world,
a woman said, I loved how you represented pelvic pain
in your TV show Camping. Camping is not even available
on HBO Max. It has been scrubbed. Jennifer Garner's probably
taken it off for IMDb. Beautiful person, amazing experience inside

(01:11:52):
and out, makes Blueberry Buckle for the crew. Ain't no
set like a Jennifer Garner's set. But that never said,
like you never when someone says something to you like that,
you cannot help but be bold over That's what you
did for Latifa.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
Okay, so they're telling me we're almost We're almost at
the times we have to do. I don't think so, honey,
And all right, so the question, but that's my god.
We didn't even ask the question really quickly? Did you do?
You want to tell them? What was the culture that
made you say culture was for you?

Speaker 3 (01:12:20):
It was seeing Sarah Jessica Parker and Jane Krakowski in
Once a mos on Broadway, Lady and Winifred, thank you
so much, and I sang, I'm shy, I'm so quiet
and shy for my Camp musical audition did not get in.
But I just thought, like, I love being a woman.

(01:12:40):
Women can be funny, they can be fun, they can
be sexy. Sara Jessica Parker is like wearing rags and screaming.
My I then went home aol dot com printed out
probably one hundred low resolution images of Sarah Jessica Parker,
made a wallpaper out of them. Yep, and it's it

(01:13:02):
was so big for me.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
I'm so sad we don't have more time to talk
about this.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
So yes, no, it was everything, and I mean it's
still And then I've also gone back and watched Carol
Burnett and it like Once about a Mattress to me,
is I love it because it's a musical where the
central character is not supposed to be good at singing.

Speaker 1 (01:13:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:13:15):
Like, which is one of the biggest fights my mom
and I ever had was when I was going to
Impact Performing Arts camp in Salisbury, Connecticut, where I was
in camp with all the Gummer sisters as well as
Lily Rabe. They were all great at acting. We were
doing a review. We were supposed to choose a song.
My mom said you should choose no, No, She said

(01:13:38):
from Guys and Dolls Adelaide's lament because it's a character piece.
And I said, I want to sing adol Weis. And
she said, you are a character actress and I said,
you are not an ngenoe. She was right, but I
wasn't ready to see the writing on.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
The wall and are a character actresses?

Speaker 3 (01:13:59):
You aren't. It's the best have a mom who knows
you're a character actress. Yeah, I mean, my mom played
Rhett Butler in the camp play Like. That's where she
because she was tall, so they always gave her the
boy parts. So she was like, take what you got,
put on your robe and sing adelaide cement. But I
just love that Once upon a Mattress is a musical
for girls who aren't naturally good at musicals.

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
Yeah, because they can go because I'm actually terribly shy.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
My favorite one is The Swamps.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
Of Home Green Angle.

Speaker 3 (01:14:34):
I always forget that you're like a musical theater kid,
and then it just gets me right in my heart.
Then I remember when I watched Wicked.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
Peacock. Yeah, okay, so we got to do I don't
think so honey, Right, all right, I have one. This
is our sixty second second where we take some time
sixty seconds great to break things across the colls. I
do have something because you want our guest. This is
Matt Rogers. Don't thinks of honey, directed at lean, done him.
His time starts now. I don't think, so honey, what

(01:15:03):
you're about to do to role model, making him a
movie star is so dangerous. I don't think, so honey,
that we're gonna be able to handle it. I've been
seeing Tucker rise and rise and rise. I've seen the
Sally phenomenon. I said, they're making a movie star. Now
we are. If you think Hudson and Connor have taken over,
you're not. You fucking wait. The little tattoos all over

(01:15:25):
his body, this sort of easy way with the smile,
the hair that looks unstyled, but you know it is
the sort of natural, charming charisma. I don't think, so honey,
that we're ready for this person to show us perfection
in this type of way, not to put pressure, because
I think putting pressure on it would then sort of
like I don't know, I would hate for any thought

(01:15:46):
to run through his head. Besides, well, I'm up, I'm
in a good mood. I'm gonna do my thing today.
It seems like the vibe. I don't think, so honey,
that we're gonna be able to get through. But I
do think, so honey, that I'm gonna be there because
you Mattalie Portman, Tucker, I'm in the seat.

Speaker 3 (01:16:03):
I do think sometimes and Rashida Jones kind of giving
him like a little askance look. And I will say
this that I showed an early cut of the movie
to a friend of mine who's like a very thoughtful
forty five year old writer, like who's like half queer,
and she was like, you're ruining my life, yea, Like
I didn't think I still had feelings like this in me.

(01:16:24):
And it's funny because I so want Tucker never to
feel objectified that. I literally talked to him like, I'm like,
put her here, pal like I was like, I talked
to him like I'm a friend's father who's just walked
in from golfing and doesn't really want kids at the house.
Because I so don't want him to ever feel like
all of these like creepy, Like I want him to
feel freedom, And I'm like, anyone can be objectified like this.

(01:16:46):
I don't want this like lovely young boyd who like
loves his mother Susan so much, to ever feel that
he's being like.

Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
That.

Speaker 2 (01:16:56):
He has the perfect perspective on it though, because and
by that I mean he has a sense of humor,
but because he recently or a couple of months ago,
posted something on Instagram stories where it was a meme
because they have the same haircut of a famous Sean
Cody porn star named Brandon, and he was like, come
to the show tonight. He has an awareness of what
he does to people, but doesn't flawn it too much

(01:17:20):
and too flagrant of a way that he will be
perfect and objectify him.

Speaker 3 (01:17:25):
He's also just a good boy, Like I was around
him for long enough that if the facade was going
to crack. It would have Let's just say, if someone
was going to kick a rug or throw a chair,
it would have happened. And he is a good boy,
like he's from Maine. He gets really happy when dogs
show up. There's a an ease, and he is obviously

(01:17:45):
poetic and complicated. I just like love him. He's my buddy,
Like I like text and pictures of my pigs all
the time, and he writes lol, like and it's you know,
it's very healthy to have young friends, very healthy. I
love him, but he's a really good actor and it's annoying.
Oh I love It's very like Brad Pitt in California,
where you're like, who's that?

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
Yeah, okay, well get ready for that who's that moment?
Here's Boon Yang's I don't think so much excited, also
inspired by our guest. Okay, this is boning. I don't
think's money. His time starts now.

Speaker 2 (01:18:15):
I don't think so many more places should be like
the tower bar at Sunset Tower and serve what chicken
pop pie? Oh, I don't care that it costs thirty
four dollars like it does a tower bar price it
up inflate that all you want. I know, I'm paying
for something premium, even if it's pretty bad. I love

(01:18:36):
the crust. And you're thinking, oh, but Bowen, it's so
hard to make and it's so hard to scale up
at a restaurant. Buy the puff pastry ahead of time,
thirty seconds, put it in the freezer, lay it out
on the on the day you'll be okay. Cut it
out on just about you know, above the dish. It
will be fine. It's not that hard to make. I
just want it made from the expertise and curatorial sort

(01:18:59):
of fifteen. I'm just pov of a chef and tier bar.

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):
I do lament.

Speaker 2 (01:19:08):
How populated it's been, it's gotten since your time there
and making it a home. It's a I love going
still it has a new valence to it now.

Speaker 3 (01:19:18):
It has a really new valance. That's what that is.
What that was incredible. I agree with you one hundred percent,
I will say, and I talked about this in the
book that I during COVID, I was for a period
the only guest at the Sunset Town.

Speaker 1 (01:19:30):
Incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:19:31):
There was one guest. There was a gentleman at the desk,
there was a lady upstairs in eleven oh nine. She
was me, I was and my dog Ingrid, who has
her own relationship to that place. And because there was
a lot, I could go work on my computer in
the bar, I could go sit by the pool, I
could go sit on the roof the Freedom. I was eloise.

(01:19:52):
It was the greatest time of my life.

Speaker 1 (01:19:54):
No one knew that the burger was famous, so they
couldn't charge forty six dollars for it. Well, they weren't
even serving me.

Speaker 3 (01:19:59):
They were literally serving croissants wrapped in in uh, you know,
croissants wrapped in whatever, like yeah, tinfoil, because they forgot
the word.

Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
For a blanket too.

Speaker 3 (01:20:11):
I believe I am a vegetarian, but that's not a
judgment or just But I've had them before in my
pat when I was acting out of pocket and eating meat,
and I loved them. But and now I was alone
at the Tower Bar and it was really beautiful. And
then you set one table on fire and they they

(01:20:33):
did it sorry kick me out, which was incredible. What
they did was look at monitor me. And now every
time I see lovely Jeff, who owns a twer bar,
he says, are you going to send anything on fire today?
And I go, no, no, no, I don't have matches.
I don't have a lighter. My husband won't let me.

Speaker 2 (01:20:50):
You can't live down something like clotting something on fire.
And once you walk back into that establishment, it's tough, incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:20:56):
Well, you're about to send this whole place on fire
with your I don't think somebody are.

Speaker 3 (01:21:00):
You thought them at it in advance. I can't be
as good a Nicole Kinman saying bad breath, and everything
will ever be as good.

Speaker 1 (01:21:05):
Listen, we're all trailing in her dust. But are you ready?
This is Lena Dunham's I don't think so, honey. Her
time starts now.

Speaker 3 (01:21:12):
I don't think so, honey. Quiet luxury, Oh I don't.
If I'm going to have luxury, I want it to
be loud. Yes, firstly, I'm not Since when did elegance
mean that you were wearing oatmeal with bone, with beige
with tan. We have so many colors, we have so
many materials. Why is looking like you work at a spa? Suddenly?

(01:21:40):
I signed? Did rich people get so bored with having
so many things that they thought the most important things
are going to be things that look like nothing? And
I don't think so honey, what you're a you're a
fashion blocker, and you're showing me that you have a
top that looks like fifteen someone's baby's skin and at

(01:22:00):
pants that look like someone else's brother, and both those
people are white. I don't want it five seconds. I
don't think so, honey. I When I get something and
I spend a lot of money on it, I want
everyone to know headlines.

Speaker 1 (01:22:14):
And that's honestly it does. I think I'm going to
say something big fashion got worse when we want minimalists.

Speaker 3 (01:22:24):
The other thing to know is that, like minimalism looks
very different on a person who spent twenty years creating
their body, Yes, whereas like minimalism on a person who's
just trying to survive? Is it different as a s Yeah,
it's just a shirt that looks and like what you
want me to get? Spend five hundred dollars on a

(01:22:44):
T shirt that looks like the one that I wore
over my bathing suit when I went to the breakers
with my grandma in nineteen ninety two.

Speaker 1 (01:22:51):
Well, it looks dirty on purpose a little bit, so
that's why it's more expensive.

Speaker 3 (01:22:55):
Yeah, that's that's exactly right. And it looks like someone
sewed it in a Shaker community.

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
And you can see the stitching. That's why it's eight
thousand dollars.

Speaker 3 (01:23:06):
I'm mad. I'm so mad, and I see things that
I just go you're really trying to tell me this,
and I don't want to indulge in fast fashion. I'm
not trying to hurt the planet. I know that, but
I don't want what you're offered. So I'm gonna have
to go to Forever twenty one. Yeah, I'm gonna have
to go to Forever twenty one. Thank you for giving
me the space.

Speaker 1 (01:23:24):
Of course, I'm gonna have to go to Forever twenty
one being the poke being they that's the title of that.
I'm gonna have to go Forever twenty one.

Speaker 3 (01:23:32):
The first time for Ever twenty one opened, I was like,
this is a utopia.

Speaker 1 (01:23:35):
Oh one like me. It felt like something that wasn't
for us in one of the things that like it
was one of those moments where it's like, you know,
when you're like a little gay boy and you see
justin Timberlake and all the girls are excited, but you
can't be no, so you get angry. That's how I
felt about for Ever twenty one, they have a place
to go hang out.

Speaker 2 (01:23:52):
But then we would go at NYU at the Forever
twenty one Union Square and that was a haven.

Speaker 1 (01:23:58):
Well finding out that they even sold for slash ma'am.

Speaker 3 (01:24:02):
I used to like if it was a hot day
and I was in a dress in my thighs, until
you just pop into Forever twenty one and get a
pair of like Neon bike shorts. It's only your outfit
is singing.

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
Yeah beautiful Famesick April fourteenth.

Speaker 3 (01:24:15):
I love being with you two, and it's so special
to have our group chat come to life in this way.
And thank you for everything you've given me friendship, changing
my life, through helping me quit vaping. Reading the book
so thoughtfully.

Speaker 1 (01:24:27):
We love every single page of it, just like we
love everything that you've done. I mean, like it's not
a lie that show you're one of the most important
people to our generation in terms of pop culture, in
terms of what you contributed.

Speaker 3 (01:24:43):
Life is so, life is just It's just so.

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
That's the title of app.

Speaker 3 (01:24:47):
I Love you, guys. It's just so thanks for having
me and for jacking me up for three days to
take forty two benadrel.

Speaker 1 (01:24:57):
That's actually in vogue. Okay. We end every episode with
the song you Know the One, you Know the One
you go I was curious if you know the one?
And the rest of that watched the best episode of
television of all.

Speaker 3 (01:25:14):
Time, Sexistential. I Love you, guys.

Speaker 1 (01:25:21):
Last Culture.

Speaker 2 (01:25:22):
Racis is the production by Will Ferrell's Big Money Players
in iHeartRadio Podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:25:25):
Created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, Executive
produced by Anna hasby A and produced by Becca Ramos,
Edited and mixed by Duck Babe, and our music is
by Henry Komerski

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Bowen Yang

Matt Rogers

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