"Unleashed" (w/ Dr. Orna Guralnik feat. Nico)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Look mare, oh, I see you my own bow and
look over there is that culture. Yes, goodness, lost culture, dang.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Dong lost Culturista is calling. We're sort of doing that
indulcent tones because we have not just one visitor, but two.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
Were doubly starstruck. I I don't even really remember my
sort of exclamatory sound that I made when I saw
Nico showing up.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Nico's here, guys, Nico's here.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
I was, I can't believe this is real and just.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Like Mom, even more striking in person, a style icon
in her own right.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
A curiosity icon much like her mother.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
And extremely comfortable with us. We were saying, Nico is
on the couch with me and Bowen. We do have
a pink bed here that Nico could use at any time. However,
it feels like she's chosen a spot, and I couldn't
be happier.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
I'm very happy with this spot. She's she can opt
out of it any time she chooses. I'm just letting
her know in English in case she can understand. Yeah,
she stands so smart.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
I will say, also, this is giving me comfort, and
I don't know if it's giving you comfort extra because
it is incredibly hard not to sit across from our guest,
sitting next to someone you're very close to and not
feel like you're in Couple's Therapy, which you know rings true,
being that that is the name of the show. It's
streaming now. It's our favorite show. Was I the one
that showed to you?

Speaker 3 (01:22):
You pat me on it and then and I thank
God every day for you.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yea.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
And I was watching with her friend Matt Whaker. I
was watching the screeners for this season five and he
mutters under his breath, professional TV writer watches everything he goes,
this is my favorite show on TV.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
It is I got born into Couples Therapy. He took
it to London and then the whole Wicked cast was
like we got to talk about doctor and what she's
capable of. It's it's huge. I mean, this is this
is really big for us. She I guess we had
some material effect on her life and we and we
and we asked her to repeat this anecdote.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah, because we're proud of this. She is our style
Icon Lost Culture Award winner from last year.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
And it's born fruit in the real fashion world.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
Truly, and I'm excited to hear more but anyway, A
couple therapy new season May fifteenth, streaming now streaming now.
Oh yes, it's out and we're so thrilled.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
She asked for a pen and paper. We were like why,
uh oh, but.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
Then but then now I'm like, well, if it happens,
it happens, But we don't want to put her on
the spot.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Everyone, welcome, doctor or your own.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
We are so happy you're here.

Speaker 4 (02:34):
Thank you for inviting me.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
Nico.

Speaker 3 (02:37):
I'm thrilled, And Nico, is she she? You don't have
any anxiety of having her off the leash in this space.

Speaker 4 (02:46):
We'll talk about that later, Oh.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Your own anxieties?

Speaker 4 (02:50):
No, no, no, I have no anxiety having her off
the leash. Other people have anxiety about having.

Speaker 3 (02:55):
Interesting any like people in production.

Speaker 4 (02:57):
Well, that was going to be my rant.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Oh we'll say that. I'm glad you're asking.

Speaker 4 (03:03):
That was the only rant I could think.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
That's a great rant. That's a really good rant. Now
what kinds of garments are you receiving? And can you
can you explain to the class what you're like.

Speaker 4 (03:15):
You guys have changed my life because you've declared me
a fashion icon, and since then I've been invited to
fashion shows first time ever?

Speaker 3 (03:23):
Did you go?

Speaker 4 (03:24):
I went it was incredible. I went to like Calvin Chanelle,
I mean incredible.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
We don't get.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
The one. I go to that fun one and I
get clothes from all these designers now and I'm like,
thank you, You've changed my life.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
Honestly, well the thanks We could return right back because
it is our favorite show. I find it's more compelling
every season. And we were actually talking right before you
came in and then resumed the conversation with you. Just
this season is so compelling, and right off the bat,
one of the things that you pulled out of the
couple who disagrees politically. Their names are Jason and or Marjorie.

(04:11):
You just flat out said, like you don't know what
each other cares about. And then you were saying every
time that's always a common threat. We're not actually asking.

Speaker 4 (04:21):
I mean, Marjorie and Jason say that they argue all
day long about politics, right, I mean long marriage. And
then you ask each of them what does the other
one care about? What are their actual opinions? And they're
like they grow blank, They're like.

Speaker 3 (04:38):
Umm, not sure. So after that, is this the inflection
point for you to say you guys need to work
on listening because you're not listening to god it. Yeah,
you needed that piece first. You needed to confirm that
they were arguing all day but not internalizing anything the
other person was saying.

Speaker 4 (04:54):
And I had it right in front of me. I
was like, Okay, start the argument, let's listen. And then
I asked each of them like what did the other
ones say? And what do you know about their opinions?
And they were like they drew a blank.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (05:06):
I mean, I mean that's the thing about if you
listen to a lot of political arguments, people are just
like sitting there and building their own argument while the
other person is talking.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
Yes, And was there some hedging around the sort of
producing of the show on whether or not to have
an example of such a marriage or a relationship on
the show because.

Speaker 4 (05:27):
We wanted that. Yeah, we wanted that. We still want that.
I mean, that's I mean, obviously that's a very important
topic nowadays. Yes, And it was like really important for
us to have this kind of couple. We were actually
seeking that kind of couple.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
Yeah, because it's true that the couples have to sort
of basically I might be wrong on this, but the
couples sort of do have to clear quote unquote a
certain kind of emotional intelligence or like a threshold quotient. Yeah,
and so it's hard for its hard to get anyone

(06:01):
to really sit down and sort of go through that process.
But I feel like there's an extra layer of refraction
to have someone two people who disagree politically but are
married and who both mutually want this kind of therapy.

Speaker 4 (06:14):
Yeah, there weren't that many, that's true.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
This is the crazy thing that I observe in couples,
especially over the past few years, where there is a
political difference, and I find that they're like, well, we
just don't talk about it, and it's just and I've
discovered that again and again. Maybe I'm seeing it through
a certain lens because I'm a gay man who overexternalizes,

(06:38):
and a lot of my friends also are very emotional
and externalize a lot. But people who are in relationships,
I find it with a lot of straight couples who
are like, I just don't talk to my spouse about this.
That is so wild to me, And I wonder if
the therapy is now giving them an occasion to actually
talk about it and not just argue about it.

Speaker 4 (06:58):
The thing is, I mean, people reach a point where
they don't talk about it, they start talking about it,
then they get into like really intense disagreements, and you know,
people just like generate their own world of facts, each
in their own bubble, and there's nowhere to go with it.
But I don't really understand the business of like not

(07:20):
talking about politics, because like everything we do has politics
like saturated all over our smallest choices. So even couples
that don't talk about politics, they're constantly talking about politics.
I mean, I always talk about a couple as like
a mini political system. They're negotiating differences all the time.

(07:42):
And one of them, if one of them is more
kind of let's say, right wing, they're going to go
for more domination and power solutions to difference, and someone
who's more liberal is going to be more inclined to
think about multiple perspectives, and they're going to be negotiating
those differences between them, even if they ever talk about
like Trump. Sure, it was just they're always talking politics.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
They are, Yeah, And it was just surprising how quickly
they I mean, I'm sure editing had to do with it,
but it was surprising how quickly they both locked into
listening because you prompted them to do that, and I
think there there was like almost some immediate progress there
were they both they both realized, oh, I guess we
don't know what the other person cares about.

Speaker 4 (08:24):
Yeah, although I mean I love them, They're a great
couple and the work was incredible with them. I mean,
they were just like so delightful to work with. I
did have kind of a hope that we're going to
I knew in advance that they have like political differences,
and I wanted one of the results of my work
with them, that was my own personal selfish wish for

(08:48):
them to align more on politics. And that did not happen.
I mean a little bit of that happened, but that
did not happen. They got better at talking, but I
thought there was be some conversion there.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
Because do you feel like that's I mean, it's obviously
better than how they came into the into the care,
into the therapy, but it's at least it's something. But like,
are the politics just going to encroach on on whatever
like progress they've made. I don't know. I guess that's
because you just there is it's sort of clinically the

(09:25):
best thing and sort of on a production level, the
best thing for you to not really keep in touch
with them after after it's done, right.

Speaker 4 (09:31):
We I mean, I see just before I'm going to
see all of the couples, were about to sit down
with them just before it airs and just prepare them
for what's coming. So I'm going to see them.

Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yes, individual like just a couple of couple. I do
feel like there is.

Speaker 4 (09:47):
This and with some couples I do keep in touch
a little bit.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
Okay, interesting, certain couples I feel like are not received
well by the audience. By the audience and are you thinking,
I'm thinking I can name examples, but maybe that's I
feel like a first season what's what's his?

Speaker 4 (10:10):
Oh? Everyone liked to attack mau Yeah, and poor Maw
Like I just learning experience.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
For us, sure, and like what we're because I feel
like the show is very preserved from the first It's
been so consistent. The choices and just stylistically and in
the way that the stories are told has been so consistent.
But I feel like with someone like Mao as a
first example of like, oh, the audience has strong feelings

(10:40):
about these dynamics and these people like what were the.

Speaker 4 (10:42):
Learnings, Well, one thing to say before even the learnings
is that I think one of the good things about
the show that we've heard repeatedly every season is that
seasons begin and people love to create a certain kind
of scapegoat. They love to hate on someone and decide
who's bad and who are they siding with, and by

(11:06):
the end of the season they're like, oh, actually I
developed empathy for everyone. So that's like, actually an incredible
journey for the audience that that's sort of what we're after.
I think it didn't go that well the first season
with Mao for a few different reasons. I think, first
of all, the editing, sort of the way he was portrayed.

(11:29):
I think we didn't get into certain we didn't have
them for long enough. They didn't stay for the whole
length of the treatment. They left at some point, so
we didn't have enough. And I think what we focused
on in terms of what was shown to the audience
didn't show enough of the subtleties of who he is.

(11:52):
And I think we learned from that.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
I remember thinking that, I remember thinking watching it and
being like, he is I understand and to him as
being unappealing because of his stubbornness in this situation. But
I was like, there's also something funny and attractive about.

Speaker 4 (12:06):
Him, you know what I mean, which sense in his
own world. Yeah, he just speaks deeply from his own world. Yeah,
and you have to be willing to go into his
world for Mau to make sense.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
M of course, and ultimately, couple's therapy is this dialectic
thing where two opposing things build into something greater than
the sum of like the two things, right is And
this is why this is your specialty because one on
one therapy is.

Speaker 4 (12:35):
No, I did plenty of one on one I'm an analyst.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
You're an analyst.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
But but that is the special thing about couples therapy
that totally and you, I mean, and do you find
yourself having to tell a lot of people I also
do one on one or yes, yes, right and so.

Speaker 4 (12:50):
But that's exactly the difference between couple's work and individual work.
And it is what I love about couple's work that
you have to like hold multiple perspectives at the same time.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
It's a perfect show for me to put my phone down,
you know how. There's like show like the Netflix has
shows where it's like they understand that the audience.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
Is on their phone.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yeah, but I feel like a couple therapy is the
rare show where it's like you have to pay attention,
Like it's like it's it. It's like it's as if
there were subtitles that you had to read, but there aren't.
You can turn them on, but you know, you have
to pay attention. You have to lock into this the
way that like you are, in the way that the
couples are, because I feel like they are they've opted
in just as much.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
Yeah, what is was your experience when someone approached you
about bringing therapy to television? Because I always wonder what
that thought process, Like, what the hell not only just
but for the people having therapy, like going through it,

(13:47):
but also you facilitating it, Like yeah, the checkpoints you
must have had to go through that not only every person,
but every you know, professional and that is in your
field is going to also have eyes on it.

Speaker 4 (14:04):
Well. When I talked with Josh and Elise, the creators
of the show. When I talked with them, originally I
wasn't thinking of participating as a therapist. I was just
listening to their ideas and like I thought, I want
to consult to them I have a like a background
in film, and I thought, I just want to make
sure they don't make another sleazy show about like a
narcissistic therapist. And we started talking and they, I mean,

(14:30):
they're amazing people there. I just loved talking to them,
and it was clear that they have like a real,
like dignified idea of what they want the show to
look like they really wanted to be about real therapy
in depth, take the time. And then they started convincing
me like why don't you try? And first I was like,

(14:50):
that's ridiculous, Like I don't know how to be in
front of a camera.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Like they were like, no, I didn't.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
Really.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
Well they saw it, I guess they.

Speaker 4 (15:00):
But they're also very tay they are documentary filmmakers. They're like,
that's not the point.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah, but what is your film background that you were saying?

Speaker 4 (15:07):
I studied film.

Speaker 3 (15:08):
Then you just understand how the sage and I'm.

Speaker 4 (15:12):
Interested in the medium of film.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (15:14):
I think it's a very powerful medium. I mean, especially
in this culture. Yes, you can do a lot with
good film and with good docs. So yeah, but then
they put the cameras in the room and I was like, oh,
actually we do what we do, even when there's a
camera there, and even if I'm nervous, I know how

(15:36):
to do this and it doesn't really make a big difference.
And then you put someone in front of me and
we start talking about their issues and they're also getting
absorbed in it, and I guess we can do it.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
It made me excited to be in therapy. Cool, it
really did. I think it does that for a lot
of people. Originally, I wonder if this is one of
the things that you were tipping to when you were saying,
like the narcissistic therapist therapist, but the show in treatment
does that what you mean, like the sort of sensationalized.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
It was sensationalized, but that wasn't the worst. I mean,
there are plenty of shows that are like that. Portray
therapists is either like falling asleep on their patients or
wanting to sleep with their patients, sleeping with their patients,
or just absorbed in their own shit. I mean, it's
like people love to project like the worst nightmare on
their therapist, and of course they're bad therapists, but most

(16:26):
people are decent. They actually want to listen to their
patients and they go into the profession, not because they're narcissists,
plenty of other professions.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
But there's a bias towards the narcissists because it's because
the medium is film or television or whatever. I think
it's a spotlight.

Speaker 4 (16:42):
I think people there's so much you know, the word transference.
There's so much projection onto therapists of everything, like all
the ways in which your parents have failed you, or
what you want from the caretaker, and all the fear
of how they're going to fail you again. And that's
what TV kind of grabs onto, or that's what film

(17:02):
grabs onto those fears.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
It's that's interesting because I think the way you work
around that is by talking to Virginia doctor Virginia Goldener,
and you talk to the peer group, which, by the way,
my old writing the essay teacher Stop Noir, and she
wrote an amazing book on laughter, on the difference between
non duchen laughter and duchene laughter. You want know the

(17:26):
difference is animal joy. Amazing book. It's it's actually like
for comedy, I think comedy people should read this book.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
I'm like, I don't.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
I'm surprised that it's not like circulated more among comedians.
But she it's that's the whole thing about non du
sheen laughter, which is voluntary laughter, like like you're you're
you're laughing as a way to like move the conversation along.
Just just it's it's it's it's real.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
It's guy.

Speaker 3 (17:48):
It's like it's the guide rails, guardrails for a conversation
to just move along, how a little joke about the
weather or whatever. Duschen laughter is open mouth involuntary or
sing laughter something's gone terribly wrong hah ha ha, like
nervous laughter, or it's like joyful, like oh my god,
like a break on SNL Like I was even, I

(18:09):
was like, oh, like a break on SNL is actually
just do shun laughter. But Norah al Sadeer, what a
small world, and I reached out her. I was like,
but she so all so all the all, like the
the grad students basically at NYU or like the adjuncts
or whatever had to had and they hated this, I'm sure,
but they had to teach all the NYU freshmen across
all the schools had to take a one semester long

(18:29):
class called Writing the Essay, just writing an expository essay
about your life and she core curriculum, core curriculum stuff.
So like the Tish kids in the acting school, in
the theater school had to take it, the chemistry majors
had to take it, the business majors.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
It was.

Speaker 3 (18:42):
It was just the one core class that everyone had
to take. And she was my professor. And I wrote it.
I don't even know what the fuck I wrote, but
she read it and she gave me a mediocre grade,
which I deserved. But she's but I reached after. I
was like, oh my god, it's so cool. You're so
she's I think she's fantastic. But that's a great group.
What differences are you getting from each group? Are from

(19:03):
the group?

Speaker 4 (19:03):
And doctor Goldner, Virginia is my original mentor. I mean,
that's why I brought her onto the show. And she
really taught me the whole couple's therapy thing, and I
guess we get kind of deeper into like clinical nuances
and explaining what's going on in the treatment with a

(19:25):
peer group. They're all my friends. I mean, they're really
my colleagues. They're not like chosen for the show. They're
really the people that I talk to about patients. And
first of all, they're really interesting. They have very different
perspectives on the work, each of them, and sitting with them,
I feel like they're they're like helping me carry the

(19:46):
load of doing this work. I mean it's an intense
thing to do. I mean, it's an intense thing to
be an analyst, to be a therapist, but to be
doing it for TV is like it's a lot of responsibility,
like big time, and they're kind of carrying the emotional
responsibility with me. They're like my buddies and they're thinking

(20:08):
with me, and it's it's very helpful.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
And are they watching the footage or the.

Speaker 4 (20:13):
Daily They watch not all of it, but they watch
kind of select sure.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
Yeah, because this season you talk to an autism and
neurodiversion expert and the way she was commenting on Clinton,
I was like, Oh, she must be she must be
privy to the footage at least yes, to like understand
his kind. And so I was always curious about it,
but it didn't really click for me until this season,
like five seasons and was like, Oh, I guess these
other people are like in on the sessions tour or

(20:41):
at least they get to watch, they get edits, they
get edits.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
I see, Yeah, we choose kind of what would be
important to talk about what I'm struggling with or yeah,
I mean the thing about Clinton, Yeah, he's neurodivergent and
he does things like he's packaged in a slightly different way.
But the emotions that he puts out there makes sense

(21:05):
very much. So they're very direct, and he explains himself. Well,
he's very verbal. They're just very raw. But it's the
same material that we're made of. He's just you know,
packaged a little differently. I mean it was not hard.
Actually really loved working with them. I like working with

(21:25):
all the people that yeah to stay, but it would
be different in a relationship. I think as a therapist,
you know, you have the luxury of like coming in,
spending some hours working on and then you go home
and you're like dealing with your own people. I think
in a relationship it's different when someone is really different

(21:46):
from you or why are different. I mean, generally difference
is difficult, but when people are kind of structurally different,
it's hard.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
Well I don't know if you've gotten to this part,
but there's a moment where kind of tells you, like,
you know, I'm trying to like, you know, he's his
diagnosis is relatively recent, and he's letting all of this
define everything about him or something along those lines, and
then he says it, of course it defines everything about me,

(22:17):
Your transness defines everything about you. Yeah, and it kind
of immediately clarified things for I think both of them,
and maybe for you or Shay kind of was she
was just kind of like, I think she took that
in and she under set in.

Speaker 4 (22:31):
But as far as I remember, I remember that session
as far as I remember, I don't know if it
was in the edits. But she then said to him, actually,
no longer.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
I don't think that did. I don't think I remember that.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:42):
Wow, maybe it wasn't in there, but but she she
did understand. But she was like, you know, I've been
trans long enough that that is not no longer kind
of the defining feature for me.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
And I think and you and you notice that right
away where you're like, will you tell Virginia like, oh,
the recency of the diagnosis is like kind of yeah,
that has that has a lot of texture here. I
think like what you're saying is there's there's like a
misalignment or they're just I guess he's not being understood
in the way that he wants to be, or she

(23:17):
is maybe ahead of him in terms of personal development
in a way in all these areas where she's making
money for the two of them, and she's lived independently
for a long time, and all these things, And like,
I just think there are about a million different things
in these people's lives across all your couples where you
have to find your way into them even though you

(23:40):
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Speaker 4 (25:17):
As I said earlier. It's when I said that the
political system couples are all about like figuring out how
to deal with someone who's other than you. Hm, it's so,
it's it's it's a little more extreme with Shane Clinton,
but it's just a little more extreme.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, I think you when you get into a relationship
to you never get into or I've been surprised every
time I'm on my fourth boyfriend and they're all really different.
If you line them all up and said what do
you have in common and it was that they dated
the same person, your mind would be blown.

Speaker 4 (25:52):
But can I ask you and are you different in
each relationship?

Speaker 2 (25:56):
Mm hmm, that's a really interesting question. I think I provide,
I try to, you know, I actually this is something
I haven't really admitted out loud. But sometimes I find
myself giving the same wanting to give them the same,
like nicknames. I gave another one, and I go, don't
do that, do that because I'm realizing that's me and

(26:16):
the way I want to express myself. But then I'm
just like on an island by myself there for no reason,
right and so. But but that was just like a
really interesting thing. And I think like the thing about
all four of them is all their complexes were so
different and you never would have expected I'm going to
be in a relationship with someone that is that is

(26:37):
dealing with this kind of thing. You just don't think
when you're getting into something with someone or you're falling
in love with someone.

Speaker 4 (26:44):
Yeah, but you're going to meet that thing that that's
what's gonna show up, like TI, Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
Think one of the things I said about myself forever
was like, I'm never going to be in like a
distance relationship, and now I am. And I was like,
and it's just funny the things that you like, the
places you find yourself and the challenges that you have,
and a lot of the things that I find myself
dealing with is like how exactly did I get here?

(27:11):
Then you can deal with what it is.

Speaker 4 (27:12):
Yeah, you know, I'm tempted to ask you questions, questions
did you like with let's say, with these four people, Yeah,
did you somehow unconsciously kind of know something about them,
which is why you picked what you then found out
later on.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
So this is something funny. Every time I saw a
picture of each one of them, that's I said, that's
my boyfriend, and I've been I was right every single time.
I don't know if that means that I was like
manifesting it or that I actually.

Speaker 4 (27:47):
Know something that you needed and that's something will show up.
You spend enough time with a person, then you realize
what you saw in that picture. Hmm, yeah, you saw something. Yeah,
I showed up a lot later.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, there's something weird. It's like, it's like I'll see
the photo. It's happening to me four times in my life.
I see the photo of the person and I'm like,
that's my boyfriend. I'm not sure how, but it is.
And every single time it's it's proven to be true.

Speaker 4 (28:16):
And you can probably look back if you really looked
at what happened in the relationship, you can look back
and say, that's what I saw in this picture. Mmm,
I saw that quality.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
Hmm.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
That's really interesting.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
But they're different strains or different qualities and all four.

Speaker 4 (28:33):
Yeah, because you're changing and you're needing different things.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, it's it's just interesting. It's just like it's one
of those things. And I do think a common thing
about each one of them is in each picture they
were each one of them was performing a little bit,
you know what I mean, And maybe I recognize that
about it. Yeah, you know what I mean. Like one
of our best friends, Jared was we dated a long
time ago, when he does this thing in pictures where
he just looks a little tough, but he's like such

(28:59):
a soft, cuddly, gooey guy who just wants to talk
about like Olivia Rodrigo.

Speaker 4 (29:04):
Yeah, but in his pictures it's but you picked up
on that kind of Yeah, I think I.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
Saw a humor in it, you know that was that
what made you say that's my boyfriend?

Speaker 4 (29:13):
Though?

Speaker 3 (29:14):
Like, what was the thing about?

Speaker 4 (29:15):
Sure?

Speaker 2 (29:15):
I think I thought he was super hot, and I thought, yeah,
but super hot is everyone.

Speaker 4 (29:19):
How things appear to us, but we don't understand why. Like,
somebody will show me someone who's super hot to them
and I'm like what, Yeah, but to them because it's
it's tickling something that matters to them.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, it's really interesting.

Speaker 3 (29:35):
Do you find that I I've heard of this. I've
known about this thread where he's he's looked at a
picture and he's gone, that's my boyfriend. And I have
other friends who also kind of have that same knee
jerk thing where they're like, well, that's my husband and
then they will end up getting married.

Speaker 4 (29:52):
Yeah, what's your theory about that?

Speaker 3 (29:55):
I don't really have one. Accept isn't that interesting? But
I don't. I don't here it's the theory that's that's
the theory, is that it's interesting.

Speaker 4 (30:04):
But they're picking up on something. Uh huh, and you
see a lot. I mean, you know as comedians that
you can express so much in like the tiniest gesture
of the face and the way the body moves, and
like you've expressed like a whole world in that people
are not conscious of. But it goes, it conveys information.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
What about me when I completely misread the signals? Almost always.

Speaker 4 (30:28):
Same more?

Speaker 3 (30:29):
I mean, oh my god, it's so cool to hear
you say that to me.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
Now where are you?

Speaker 4 (30:34):
Now?

Speaker 2 (30:34):
Where are you?

Speaker 3 (30:35):
Why are you listening to him?

Speaker 1 (30:38):
Always?

Speaker 3 (30:41):
No? I I just whatever. I just I feel like
I cast a wide net and then I get a
couple of crabs, so to speak.

Speaker 4 (30:47):
Meaning you're not looking oh no, no, no, I feel like gosh,
meaning you're not actually looking.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
More dead on, you're not paying attention or sure. So
Matt's thing with me is always well, maybe it's that
guys are afraid to approach you or something. And I'm like,
and then what I've internalized with like parental voices and
just the voices in my head that are just all
the way back from childhood. I'm so sorry to make
you do this. Go Okay, it's just that it's like, oh, well,

(31:16):
like the worthy and the worthiness of my own sense
of worth is not like aligning with the possibility that
this could be.

Speaker 4 (31:24):
Yeah, that this is possible at all. Right, So, so
may I translate please? So you're saying that whatever noise
you're getting from the inside is putting a filter and
you don't actually see who's in front of you.

Speaker 3 (31:39):
Or that I immediately write it off. Yeah, yeah, I
mean a lot.

Speaker 4 (31:45):
Of noise coming from the inside and it's like getting
in the way of you seeing what's going on.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
Absolutely, just so many super constructed frequencies kind of yeah,
amplifying each other.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
I see you in my head as a turtle who
doesn't know your shell has some spikes. Sometimes. I think
that he doesn't realize when he's pushing, when when he's
being's drawing. I think you're with you withdraw when you
get maybe a little nervous, and I think that what

(32:18):
you're picking up on is like people are intimidated by me?
Is I actually I actually think they're not. But you're
just you're you react a little bit more strongly than
I think you realize.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
Okay, that that's my.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
Read on it. As his best friend of fifteen years.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, has he ever said that to you before?

Speaker 3 (32:35):
Yeah, I don't think he's I don't think he's made
the turtle of comparison, but it makes it's a great turtle.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Thing came to me just now. Yeah, I was picturing
one of those Mario turtles like where they have that,
you know, the ones you don't want to be around,
that fly down the and they have the spikes on
their shells, like a Bowser type really or not? Yeah,
you know, a bowser type, a Bowser type.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
But not really, not like that. He ain't roar ring.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
We's got jokes though.

Speaker 3 (33:02):
What do you think is the what do you think
is the healthiest relationship in pop culture?

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Mario?

Speaker 3 (33:06):
Peach?

Speaker 2 (33:06):
But peaches always know.

Speaker 4 (33:08):
What's the healthiest relationship in popcor But you know, you.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
Even told us, you know, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 3 (33:13):
No, no, no, no, no, we're moving We're moving past because doctor
or even told us I know nothing about pop culture.
Why am I putting you on the spot and making
you I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
When you are the culture you don't need to know
and you I'm.

Speaker 4 (33:26):
Going to say that from now on.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
And you also, I don't know anything.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
That's a good line, just when you're strolling down park Slope, like, listen,
I am the culture.

Speaker 4 (33:35):
Park Slope's okay, nobody challenges me.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
They're all doing their own thing. We do want to
ask you, though, the central question of our show, and
you know, we usually do have people in the entertainment world,
and obviously you are, but you know, this is an
interesting thing to ask you, doctor Orno. What was the
culture that made you say culture was for you? Defining culture,

(33:59):
whether it be atmospheric or pop cultural that you think
moved you in a you direction?

Speaker 4 (34:05):
Okay, I did think about it, but I'm a little
worried that it's going to be out of touch with
what it can happen characters like sound. So what I
thought were two things.

Speaker 3 (34:17):
One was.

Speaker 4 (34:20):
David Lynch's Twin Peaks. Wow. Sure that was like when
that show came out, I was like, okay, I belonged
to this world.

Speaker 3 (34:30):
Wow?

Speaker 2 (34:31):
What about it?

Speaker 4 (34:32):
The way it was unsettling, unsettling, going for the weird,
not afraid to go for like the unconscious material and
go really far into it and manifest it visually. It
was just like, oh, I relate to this. Can you
believe that?

Speaker 3 (34:49):
Was? ABC? Can you believe that was on network.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
Just like a network television show that would it would
never send a chance in hell now.

Speaker 4 (34:58):
But that was an amazing moment.

Speaker 2 (34:59):
Yes, just real emotional texture and terrain and stuff that's
not easy to.

Speaker 4 (35:06):
And a lot about like madness, about the madness of
like the psyche, like all the edges of the psyche.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
Was this before you wanted to go into therapy?

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yes, I've already been in therapy.

Speaker 4 (35:21):
I've already explored the edges.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yeah, that's why it appealed to you.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
That's why it appealed to you. Was there another answer?

Speaker 4 (35:28):
The other one was. Pina Bausch has this piece called Capemular.
I don't know if you've ever seen it.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
I don't think so.

Speaker 4 (35:39):
It's it's an incredible dance piece where and you know,
it's dance theater, and it's couples. It's all couples. But
it's just, I mean, highly recommended. It's one of the
most moving and intense and beautiful pieces that captures something
incredible about humanity and about relationships and both the appeal

(36:03):
and the impossibility of relationships.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Right.

Speaker 4 (36:06):
It's a really incredible piece.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
And which directly links to do what I do.

Speaker 4 (36:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
I love when the when the answer is clearly a threat, okay,
you know, like it's and I.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
Actually enjoy it more when it's something that I have
not seen, okay, because I'm learning something.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
What is it about the relationships on display there? Just
like they're they're very emotional.

Speaker 4 (36:30):
They're very emotional. All her work is very emotional, but
it's also funny. It's always witty and there's a lot
of meta in it in all of our dance pieces,
like it's both like really sensual and very now but
also intellectual. But she plays a lot with gender in

(36:52):
those pieces men women men men women women and power
structures and dependency and independence, like people kind of jump
on each other, hold on to each other, push each
other away. There's a lot of longing and mourning and
aggression and it's like all the things that make us

(37:15):
humans's and beautiful.

Speaker 3 (37:18):
Yeah, do you get any sort of synesthetic isn't the
right word, But as you are intriguing with people, I
feel like you are maybe you are like seeing something
or sensing something that like is kind of channeling in
through something that is not purely intellectual. On the other

(37:38):
of course, it is like is there any description you
have on that, I think it would be.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
I wonder if you guys, as actors and comedians, if
you talk about this. But you know, people convey like
a huge amount of information beyond the words they use.
Sometimes it's aligned with the words they use, but often
it's like of a different nature. Sometimes it's even opposite
of what they're saying. But you know, like I'm moving

(38:08):
my hands, like my eyes, like the body. You feel
it when you're sitting with people, All of this information
is transpiring between us, and a lot of it is
very unconscious. That's why I said, like years later, you
can look at the picture and then you realize the
information was there.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (38:26):
Yeah, but it takes us a long time to understand
it in words and in our conscious mind. But as
an analyst, you're trained to be like an antenna that
listens to all of it. So like when I'm sitting
with patients, it's like I'm like an antenna that receives
a lot of information, and I've learned over the years

(38:47):
to translate that into material that I can think of.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
I don't know, was that an answer, yes, absolutely, because
even your body language this in those sessions is active. Listening.

Speaker 4 (39:01):
I move, I move my face, I move my hands,
I move in my chair a lot, I'm in.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
My favorite part of the show is the micro expressions
that that it picks up. Yeah, I mean, that's my
I think when the camera finds the partner who's receiving
the information and you can see them either working it
out or disagreeing or whatever it is, and then obviously,
it without fail, picks up with you where are you?

(39:29):
You know what I mean? And I think that's my
favorite thing about the show, and it is you know,
it is a skill to be sitting and receiving what
someone is saying while almost yeah, what the other person
is going through, which is really one of the most
important things about what is being said. Yeah, And just
the cameras being hidden the way they are or placed

(39:51):
to the way they are is Yeah.

Speaker 4 (39:53):
I can tell you that sometimes there are sessions where
the DP or someone who's been looking through one of
the cameras tells me something about someone's facial expression that.

Speaker 3 (40:04):
I didn't see.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
Ah wow wow.

Speaker 4 (40:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
Would you call it verite like because documentary isn't totally accurate,
And but I think the appeal of the show for
so many The reason why it's it's it's a broad, inviting,
appealing show is because it scratches the sort of voyeuristic
reality show it's that everyone kind of has like they're
based not everyone, but like I certainly do. And yet
it feels like it's it's very tee. It's it is

(40:28):
the truth.

Speaker 4 (40:29):
It's very tee because no one is influencing anything other
than me trying to help people get better. But no
one's telling us do this, do that, or make it
more this, or have the treatment end. Well, it's it's
the cameras are just there and the editors are just
waiting for the footage to just tell the story as

(40:49):
it is.

Speaker 3 (40:49):
Sure, And are the lights on the sound stage mimicking
what the daylight situation is outside? Yes, I'm like, oh
it's look, it's yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
I'm in such a world right now after what you said,
I have to tell you I'm really thinking about it
like I was thinking about because it happened a fifth
time and it's worth a picture. Yes, So this is
years and years and years ago. I just got to
Nyu and we have a very close friend who remains
our one of our best friends to this very day.
His name is Dave, and I saw him in a

(41:22):
picture and he was from Rhode Island. I'm from Long
Island and we hadn't met. And it was his parents
who sort of looked like my parents, and his sister
who was exactly three years younger than him, and him
and we dressed similarly, and I could tell we were
from a similar like culture of upbringing. And I thought
in my mind when I saw that picture, I was like,
I have to date that boy. Wow, I have to.

(41:43):
I have to. And I think what I really needed
at the time was someone.

Speaker 4 (41:47):
Who was like me, Yeah, you needed some twinning.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
I needed someone who was like, you're like me, and
you're gonna be okay, you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (41:56):
Yeh.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
And I think my first boyfriend, Henry, I was twenty five.
He's so sweet and he was coming across in the
picture as very cuddly and sweet, and that's I knew
I was due for a first relationship and he was
the one for that. Yeah, I had an ex that
ness me up. And I think what I saw in
the picture was like, that guy's gonna out of me.

(42:17):
You know what I mean? You did, and you know
what I mean? And I think it's it's I'm just
working it out now. It's like that thing, it has
to be something beyond. I'm clairvoyant and I see a
picture and I know this. I know this thing. It's
your body telling you, like there, that's the thread we
need to follow, like, and it's a visual. I'm really

(42:37):
happy I can finally find that. Yeah, because now I
know it's like, you know, you have a reaction to something.
It's like telling you something else.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
It's to fulfill a psychological need at the time, right.

Speaker 4 (42:47):
Yeah, and you pick up on the queue without knowing
our mind. Our conscious mind is so behind everything else
that's happening.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
All your conscious mind knows to do is to obsess.

Speaker 4 (42:59):
Yeah, or to say hot.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah hot, or like you know, like you know, then
send a DM you shouldn't send or yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
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Speaker 2 (43:15):
I'd say Eminem's are one of those truly iconic snacks.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
They've just launched a brand new freeze dried innovation that
brings a whole new vibe to the eminem lineup.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
I mean, come on, what's not to love about Eminem's
by itself.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
And if it's freeze dried, I feel like I'm in space.
Eminem's continues to be that girl. The crunch is unexpected
in the best.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Way way, crisper than you'd think. Like you bite into
one and there's this little pop that you don't see
coming from something that still tastes like classic Eminem's caramel.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
Sure they don't look exactly like the Eminems you know,
but they are the Eminems you love. They're perfect for
snacking when watching television, scrolling on your phone, or settling
in for a movie.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
And I'm already thinking that'd be great to have on
handler watching the culture of Wards.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
Yes, the best part is they've got that classic Eminem's
caramel flavor. It's available in stores now.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
I'm gonna try one right now.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
Amazing pop pop.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
I really do like them. I really wonder what you think.
Have you always worked with same sex couples? Yeah, so,
I wonder what you think about just you know, as
gay men. Who are you know, in different stages of dating?
And this obviously is a big topic on this podcast.
I wonder what you've seen change or not change about

(44:34):
same sex relationships since you started practicing or working with couples.
To now, as the world has changed so much about
the way that we're accepted.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
I can offer up the prevalence of open relationships among gays, yeah,
being more, being more.

Speaker 4 (44:53):
Not only among gay men, of course, relationships in general.
I mean, that's one of the gifts that keeps giving. No,
I've been offered society.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
I thought you were going to say, it's a gift
that keeps on giving for you.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
The idea of it, yes, yeah.

Speaker 4 (45:12):
The idea of it has been I think excellent. I
mean opening up all these like barriers. But but going
back to going back to that interesting question, there are
some I mean, I've been working for a long time.
I'm old, and there are some obvious things, which is

(45:33):
like earlier on in my career, game in would come
and there would be so much, so much palpable internalized homophobia.
It was like it was like thick. And it's so
much lighter now. It's not gone, not gone, but so
much lighter now. And there's so much more language around it,
and and just people have the capacity to think about

(45:57):
it rather than for homophobia to kind of clutch them
without them understanding what's destroying them.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
That you can do it to yourself yes, yes, of course, yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
I maybe back a couple of decades ago, even like
there was just something death drive related to the fact
that like you know, like that like your your sort
of bill of health was so commodified or was a
thing that like preferred conferred status on people that was

(46:32):
completely constructed, you know what I mean, just in terms
of in like a pre prep society when.

Speaker 4 (46:36):
Like yeah, you're talking about the AIDS, yes, I know.
And and that period of time that was like insane,
Like how much like homophobia got like wrapped into all
these other death drive it was that was horrible not
to mention that there were all these deaths that people
were dealing with. I mean that was like, yeah, it

(46:57):
very very complicated time period anyway. So that's on the
grand scale of things of how things have changed, you know, nowadays,
there are other big things that are happening that are
affecting not only gay couples, but you know, the sense

(47:17):
of like foreshortened future that there's less of where is
this world going climate, you know ai and which has
an impact on relationships. So I mean, I'm going to
make a generalization that I don't know if it's true.
It's just what I see in my practice, it's not
like a real study, but it almost had like an

(47:38):
inverse effect on gay relationships versus straight relationships, Like straight
people are less in a hurry to get into relationships,
they kind of don't see a future, and gay this
is vast generalization. Gay people are more okay with settling
into relationships and less kind of sure anxiously bopping around.

(48:04):
I don't know how to exactly theorize about.

Speaker 3 (48:06):
That, we said to a friend on the podcast recently.
This is the first time maybe in like human history,
where we are mourning the future in advance. Yes, well
put and so like is that maybe part of it
where gay couples feel why not fulfill the psycho the

(48:27):
psychological need for them culturally or whatever individually, Where it's like, well,
this thing that, like I was told was never available
to me, let me try to make that happen as
whatever quickly or whatever more and as fulfilling of a
way as possible. Yeah, and straight people are kind of like, well,
what's what's the point.

Speaker 4 (48:43):
The point I'm supposed to be doing this, but the
promise is gone.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
They're seeing examples of their friends with children and and
seeing how difficult it is to raise them.

Speaker 4 (48:53):
And how do you imagine a future for them?

Speaker 3 (48:56):
Huh, Yeah, I think it's I think maybe that's something
I don't know, but that that that I don't find
that to be a generalization that actually feels you resonate
with that definitely, I think so.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
I've definitely thought more often lately just.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
The general malaise.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
Let yeah, like even tonight, our friends are like, we're
gonna go to Jockstrap Night at the Eagle, and I
I'm sure you got.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
And yeah, I know the.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Come with us be pleased and be too huge of
a hit. But I can't think of anything I'd want
to do less, honestly, And I do wonder if that's
just me getting older or feel like I already did it.
But I feel like in a world where it's this
idea of morning the future, yeah, I've already done a
lot of the frivolous, careless stuff. You know. There's this

(49:51):
song it's called If the World was Ending, and it
talks about, like the lyric is, if the world was ending,
you'd come over right just as one person, like I
just want to check in with you, like that, if
the world was going to end and we all knew
it and we had an hour to get to someone.
You would do that, right, you know what I mean?

(50:11):
Like it's this idea that.

Speaker 4 (50:14):
And I think, if that is ending, can we finally
just be together?

Speaker 3 (50:18):
Right?

Speaker 4 (50:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (50:19):
If it was.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
You know, And of course the song is written because
this idea is out there in the ether, and I
just feel like I've done all this. I know what
that feels like. I don't really know what it feels
like to be like secure, you know, this idea like
I've I've always fought with this idea of monogamy because
I feel like I'm talking as a version of my

(50:45):
past self, you know what I mean, that wouldn't be
able or wouldn't want to not it's this thing I
have in my head about it, not meaning I had
freedom or something or why should it be cheating if
you know, if this happens, it's like, but nowadays it's like,
I don't know if it's my general energy for all

(51:06):
of that, because it does take a lot of work,
or it's something else. But the I can wrap my
head around the concept.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
Of it now.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
And I could have been just railing against monogamy as
a concept because that was the heterosexual concept, and therefore
I didn't like it. But it's but that's changed. I
think it's interesting you say that because I see that
in myself, and maybe it's that idea of morning the future. Okay,
for morning the future, maybe I should look at things
a different way if we're morning. You know.

Speaker 3 (51:39):
It was a thing that was not available to us
growing up in the sense that like we were watching
our straight friends couple up and do the things like
in middle school and high school, like just developmentally sort
of like grow with the time and the age that
they were or something.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
We gave that up a little.

Speaker 3 (51:57):
We gave that up. We never had it, I don't know,
gave it up.

Speaker 4 (52:01):
Never had it, never never how to.

Speaker 3 (52:03):
Have it exactly. So I went through conversion therapy. Yeah,
and I feel like I'm finally on the other side
of it. It'll always come back. Yeah, oh absolutely. It
was total quackery. Eight weeks. This guy trying like sort

(52:23):
of like drip feeding it to me, where the first
four sessions were like talk therapy traditionally, like just nothing,
no sort of dogmatic agenda to it at all, grooming me. Oh,
how ironic and so uh, and then the back half
was okay, let's walk through, talk me through a moment

(52:45):
where you felt attracted to a man, and where were you?
How are you feeling? It was like, how are you
feeling in your body? What was your posture? You were
hunched over? Well, that must mean that you were feeling.
Were you in pain? You must have been in pain,
and the and so and so. Yeah, so let's just
start associating your your same sex attraction with moments where
you were in distress.

Speaker 4 (53:05):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (53:06):
And that was what was kind of so early on
internalist for me.

Speaker 4 (53:11):
Wow. And yeah using CBT.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Yes, it was full CBT, but like in.

Speaker 4 (53:18):
Like mind manipulation.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Wow, And this is that violence?

Speaker 3 (53:25):
So the second violence? Yeah, and I should tell you
the second to last session, Uh.

Speaker 4 (53:33):
Did you know that something bad is being done to you?

Speaker 3 (53:36):
No? I think that was That was the goal of
the first four sessions the group. So the ultimatum was
for my parents, they find long story short, they find
out I'm gay, I my college acceptances are coming in
my sister whatever. And so the ultimatum is either you
stay in state in Colorado and go to school here
and live with us, or you can go to New
York and live with your sister if you go through

(53:59):
this conversion therapy. The irony was that my sister went
to NYU the gayest undergrad in the world.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
They created one of the most publicly gay people in America. Awesome,
I'm so happy that is.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
Oh my god. So I acquiesced and I was coming
home with my parents like sobbing at the dinner table
every single night. And I was like, I have to
make as a child of the immigrant. I'm like, I
have to make this right. I've like, this is this
is the biggest this is a wound upon the family
that I that is it's on me to heal. So
I go along with this, and the second to last session,

(54:36):
you know, we're fine. I'm I'm going I'm like giving
it a go. I'm like, okay, my identity is malleable. Sure,
I'm growing, like neuroplasticity whatever. My dad goes, can you
give us referrals for people in New York who do this?
And he's like, sure, I will come up with the
list for the last session. I go home next week
is the last session I go in. He wants to reflect,

(54:57):
sort of put a cap on the whole thing. He's like,
how so, let's just reflect on what this isn't it?
And then we talk about it, and then he goes,
I want to share with you an anecdote. But one
of my former patients, his former patient of mine, was
driving along the highway in California and his car starts
to break down and he has to get off in
San Bernardino. Not somewhere you want to be. He gets
off at San Bernardino and he stops bout at Denny's.

(55:19):
It's late at night. He goes to Denny's. He sits down,
The waiter comes over to him, he's a glint in
his eye, pours some coffee. There's a connection, and I go,
am I gonna, am I gonna really have sex with
this waiter. He switches into the first person and then
he catches himself. Oh my god, and he goes, I

(55:40):
mean my patient was saying, and I caught him in
the lie. The blood leaves his face. Everything about the
last eight weeks was completely.

Speaker 4 (55:52):
Clear to you, completely clear to you, exactly charade.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
Wow. He rushes to finish the session, and I leave
kind of shell shots like okay, yeah, like this is
a lie and the diplomas on his wall are all
fake or they're all just they're just matter.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Even if he earned them, they don't matter in this moment.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
And so then he brings me out to the waiting
room where my dad sits, and he's like, that was
a great last session. And these are the names. I
could only find one name of someone who does this
in New York. And he's not even in New York.
He is in New Jersey. And then my dad goes, well,
you can take the train out to Jersey every week, right,

(56:31):
And I was like, yeah, I definitely, I'll take the
New Jersey transit to see this therapist once a week
while I'm in college. H I knew in that moment.
I think even my dad knew this is not point
to continue never happening. Yeah, and that was like just
the sort of unceremonious hilarious in a way, and to
that whole saga. Wow, Yeah, but I'm still kind of

(56:53):
like convalescing from this, of course.

Speaker 4 (56:56):
Yeah, did you see Matthew and Jianny?

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (57:01):
Yes, And it's just it's it's it's so it's so intense,
and I keep writing it off and people keep wanting
to talk about and sometimes I'm cagy about it, and
sometimes I'm but I'm just like and I think people
have the sense that I'm a reserved person who like
shuts down associates and disconnected from things. And I'm like, well, yeah,
I guess it's happened to me.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
This happened.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
There is like when it gets I hear you saying,
like sometimes it it depends who wants to talk about it,
because there is this sensationalizing that happens in the media
about conversion therapy, like oh, can you believe it? What
a sort of vibor And it's like, yes, this is true,
but like when it's in print or something, and when
it's for someone else, like it's hard because that is
your real experience and it's very hard to walk through that.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
And I think an image gets conjured up in other
people's brains about like me with like electrodes or whatever.

Speaker 4 (57:52):
It's like, actually did have that image, Yeah, I did
think about.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
Like this, right, And that's okay because that ct.

Speaker 4 (57:58):
For women, you know, yes, that are like that we're
too history.

Speaker 3 (58:03):
Onic exactly, yeah it is, and you would and I
don't fault you for that, but I think it's just
the portrayal of it in media or some such just
makes it so that like people have this, like people
project onto me like their their their condolences or whatever.
And I'm like, I think it was fine, and it
was actually quite boring. Yeah, but what it did was

(58:26):
very pernicious and very slow, and it's been very hard
to sort of like wade through that. But thank you
for listening to me tell you that story.

Speaker 4 (58:33):
Well, thank you for being open.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
Anyway, when people tell on themselves, it's so like, years
and years and years ago, this is and don't do this,
and no one would now. I was a freshman at
NYU and me and my friend went into as a joke,
went into the scientology building and we were like let
we were like let we were like, let's see how
crazy it is. And this guy gave us a tour.

(58:55):
They split us up, by the way, of course, yeah,
they gave us a tour, and it was I was like,
I gotta get the hell out of heroes. At the end,
he's like, Okay, just sign this thing and we'll go,
and I just go. The last thing I said was
what made you want to get into this? And he goes, well,
for a really long time, I used to be really

(59:17):
angry and I'm.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
Still really angry.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
It was so mad. And then and then me and
my friend are like, oh my god, looking at each
other like yeah, what. And I just feel like, ever
since I came here, I'm not angry anymore. And we
were like, okay, scientology times square at this juncture, eighteen

(59:40):
year old me and Lizzie got the heck out of there.
But it's it's I feel bad.

Speaker 3 (59:46):
The veneer always cracks though.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
It's like, even with this guy who like professionally was
paying it forward in terms of getting people to go
back in the closet, it didn't work on him, you
know what I mean. But my last question before and
I don't think so, honey, is now that you're doing
press for this and the years that you've done press
for the show, do you feel like there is a
kind of scaled up avoidance of transference or that you

(01:00:10):
feel like you have to like be very guarded about
your own personal life or not sure to me details
about yourself so that the audience does not focus counter
transfer on you in a way because they are parasitically
seeing you as a therapist.

Speaker 4 (01:00:22):
Yeah. I mean that's been from the beginning of us
doing the show. I mean the filmmakers who are now
seriously they could be analysts. They've gone through analytic training
with me. But early on they were like, well, you're
you're going to be an important person in the show.
We want you involved. We want to know a lot
about you. And I was like, no, no, no, it's not

(01:00:43):
going to work. Yeah if you know too much about me,
because the whole idea is for the therapist to kind
of move to the background to some degree and to
let the action unfold, not to focus on me. And
I think that's a very important part of the show,
that it's not about me and my personality in my
background and all of that, but it's about the work.

Speaker 3 (01:01:06):
I feel like you you probably have to be boundaried
about that. In the promotion of the show, I'm sure
people want to ask you things about yourself.

Speaker 4 (01:01:12):
You're like, well, I think people are well trained by now.

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
Good. Yeah, yeah, that's right, because I'm even to have
been very.

Speaker 4 (01:01:18):
Nice, good asking me a very personal question. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
I was like, I mean, I'm sitting here thinking, I
wonder at the Eagle if we can get into her therapy.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
Camera exactly, no problem, because I don't think so honey,
we have a preview of what yours is going to be.
But we'll go first, yea, to sort of set the
syntax or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
I have a therapy based one or emotional based one. Okay,
because I realized this today, actually because it happened. All right, Okay,
here we go.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
This is Matt Rodgers is I don't think so, honey.
His time starts now.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
I don't think so, honey. Passive aggression because I think,
I really what I hate about it. It makes me
feel like you think I'm an idiot, like I don't
see it, and that's what bothers me. No, it's you
can be but you were not being it because I
think you know that I'm smart, but some people I
think that don't or they're they're not giving me the

(01:02:19):
credit that I don't pick up on every little thing
that you say. Passive aggressively. I would rather you insult
me seconds. I would rather you be aggressive than be
passive aggressive because of the thing that's running alongside it,
which is they're too dumb or they're too self involved
to pick up on what I'm also saying, like or

(01:02:40):
what the underlying meaning of it says, like I promise you.
I pick up on it, and the fact that I
then have to sit with it is also a noxious
thing you're doing. You're not saying what it is. It's
something you want me to ruminate on. And because I
do think so honey, I don't think so honey, it's
working and that's why I don't like it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
And that's one minute.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
But the passive aggressive behavior, I've realized, like is the
thing that gets me the most.

Speaker 4 (01:03:04):
But that is the theme of our hour together, like
the idea, really we have a theme here, really, Yeah,
because you're talking about the fact that the words might
not be really what the person is conveying, right, they're
conveying so much more, and you're supposed to ignore all
the stuff, but you're picking up on all of it
that they're being hostile and mean, and you're supposed to

(01:03:27):
like go along with it. While you've picked up on it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
Somebody said, like, just say it directly.

Speaker 4 (01:03:32):
Just have the words and the behavior match.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Yes, this is what set me off. Somebody said, well,
so and so is the only person that listens to me.
And I was just like, right, I was like, I
don't listen to you. And I was just like, it's
a couple of things. It's like, you don't think I'll
pick up on that and be upset about it, or
that it would hurt my feelings, and that you would
say it in a way that you knew would hurt

(01:03:56):
my feelings when you know what I mean and not
own it, but right, it's like cowardly. Yeah, it's like
I do feel like passive aggression, like especially in well
established relationships or relationships where you know there's a lot
of care. I find that if I ever am like
reacting in a way people are like, oh, you snapped.
It's like I don't even notice I'm doing it. I

(01:04:16):
think I'm just super sensitive to not being given the
credit to handle direct information.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
Yeah, And are you hoping for them to give you
that sort of directness and kind I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
Hoping that people just tell me what's up, like you
have something, say it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
And maybe it's because they feel like I'm going to
have an answer for everything, so they'd rather not directly
like give me the information because they know that I
react very quickly and I'm a verbal processor. But I
still don't like it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
Yeah, you know, like I'm with you?

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Yeah, I bet I'm with you, And it was just
but it's you know. I was again like, That's why
I love the show so much is because it helps
you realize things about Yeah, because suddenly I'm like, well,
they're right, you know what I mean? And then this
other thing comes in where I'm like, oh my God,
like you know, but again, had we just said the thing?

Speaker 4 (01:05:10):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
But not everyone is just ready to say the thing yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:05:14):
Because there's a whole ocean of nonverbal communication that's happening
under the word.

Speaker 4 (01:05:18):
And because we push, we repressed, we dissociate, We don't
know everything. My conscious mind is a late comer.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
I'm reading The Lathe of Heaven by Ursula k LeQuinn.
Have you read it?

Speaker 4 (01:05:33):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
Okay, sci fi novel written in the seventies about like
a man who has the power to change the world
in his dreams, and so he goes to a doctor.
And she wrote, like the left hand of Darkness. She's
like a very she's like a very queer, very like
ahead of her time, still ahead of her time, even
she passed away ten years ago, sci fi writer. But

(01:05:54):
it's basically his clinician understanding his power, like inducing sleep
in him, but like influencing dream so that he gets
what he wants. Oh wow, it's anyway. So there's just
I don't know why I bring this up just in
terms of like that, in terms of the subconscious mind. Yeah,
like having this kind of no and and and and
it ends up being this, It ends up being he

(01:06:15):
is he's the villain of the It's it's the patient
understanding what's being done to him, and he has to
stop the doctor. It's incredible. I have a more frivolous one.
I have a more frivolous but still therapy related.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
This is Bow and Yang's. I don't think so, honey.
His times just now, I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:06:29):
Think so, honey. The white noise machine that side the
therapist's office.

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
Come on.

Speaker 3 (01:06:34):
I mean, I understand it's important for that for for
that arrangement. Sometimes I want brown noise. Sometimes I want
pink noise. I want different frequencies. And it's such a
different frequency of noise. Got it. But it actually has
the potential to lull you to sleep. But then your
subconscious mind kind of comes to play. I just think
I I remember feeling so stupid when I asked my
pri or, my previous therapist, when I would walk into

(01:06:56):
her office, I was like.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
What are those little dish things at the bottom of
each door.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
Thirty seconds she.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
Was like, those are the white noise machines so that
people don't listen in on each other's sessions. And I
was like, right, right, right, I don't know, show us
a little secret. Obviously it's confidential. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
But sometimes isn't it fun fun of therapy where it
would incentivize you to go to therapy so you can
just lightly snoop. You can never linger, you can just

(01:07:21):
kind of walk past to go to the bathroom. But
it gives then it kind of a if it helps
divert whatever unnecessarily unnecessary telehealth is happening, I'm all for it.
And that's a minute, one minute. Some telehealth it's not necessary.
Some of it show up.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
You must be a little relieved though, to have the show,
so at some element of you you can be like
can you believe this guy?

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
Like you must leave some sessions like I kind of
wish I could share what just happened with someone, but
obviously I can't.

Speaker 4 (01:07:50):
Now you have the show, no I know, and I
can talk to people about my patients. An amazing gift.

Speaker 1 (01:07:57):
Yeah, get they let you way.

Speaker 4 (01:08:00):
I don't use white noise machines.

Speaker 3 (01:08:01):
Interesting, I use music, what kind of music whatever?

Speaker 4 (01:08:05):
I feel like? Okay, plays, but I don't like white
noise machines.

Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
I'm sure you have wonderful taste.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
I was gonna say, what, what's what's your what?

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
What? I don't know if you use Spotify or Apple
Music or what? Yeah, okay, what what's what's on there?

Speaker 4 (01:08:17):
What's on there? My phone's in the other room.

Speaker 3 (01:08:21):
Instrumental stuff? Is it?

Speaker 4 (01:08:22):
At the moment. There's a lot of ambience ambient electronica.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
Hell yeah, I bet you'd like one O tricks point
never or something.

Speaker 4 (01:08:31):
Oh. I just listened to them yesterday.

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
To him, he just he just played in Brooklyn.

Speaker 4 (01:08:35):
I know. I know that daughter actually went to that show.
I was supposed to go, saying that was the last
thing I listened to. Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
Wow, Okay, I'm with you. I'm with you. Oh you're
so cool, Orna God. Okay, all right, of course you
listen to noise. All right, let's go. This is Are
you ready?

Speaker 4 (01:08:52):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
This is doctor Orna girl, cause I don't think so, honey,
her time starts now, Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:08:58):
I don't think so, honey. First of all, to ask
a psychoanalyst to rant is already a problem because we're
supposed to like analyze all of our grievances and grudges
out of ourselves. So no road rage. But I do
have pet peeves go on. I don't think so, honey.
I don't like people that come up to me and

(01:09:20):
ask me, can't you leash your dog? Look at this dog.
I mean, she's like a love bomb, an angel. And
what happens on the street when I'm walking with her,
and she's just like schmoozing around, being loving and sweet
and you know, the prettiest face. People come and unleash

(01:09:42):
all of their old grudges, all of their entitlement, and
they're just like, can't you leash your dog? And I'm like,
can't you leash your anger? And then I start self analyzing. Okay, okay, okay,
he's another person accept otherness. Maybe he's having a hard day.

(01:10:05):
What's up with you? Why are other people bothering you?

Speaker 3 (01:10:08):
Uh huh.

Speaker 4 (01:10:09):
So that's how an analyst thinks. But I do want
to tell you, for example, that there are people like
I had this one guy that was standing with a stroller.
It's a dad with a screaming baby, like a lot
of environmental noise pollution. And he's standing there and he's
watching Nico, my gorgeous love bomb, snooping around and she

(01:10:32):
ran behind a building, like into the bushes, into the shrubbery.
He just stood there and watched and watched and watched,
and finally she came back and he's like, well, are
you going to clean up after her? So I do
not like that. I do not like people telling me
to leash my dog. I think there's a little bit

(01:10:53):
too much righteousness in people who want me to leash
my dog. I think they should leash.

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
Their and that's two minutes and that is a lack
of control on their part.

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
And we let.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
You be unleashed. Okay, we unleashed and thank you for that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:10):
The title of this episode is.

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):
Unleashed Awesome, unleasht.

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
Or what was it except otherness?

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:11:17):
I like that as well. Maybe it's a maybe it's
a slasher. It's a slasher film.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
Part one except Otherness Part two on Unleash. Also, I
just wanted you to know that we did not come
in with the intent of you're gonna sit here and
listen to us unpack. But I'm happy we got the
opportunity to do it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:38):
That's what we do, you know, for indulging us that
just a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
As two people have considered a couples therapy.

Speaker 3 (01:11:45):
I am more reserved. Yeah, and and and then I
and I copt to that. I feel he is more reserved,
and we and we have and yes, I think that
was also was about to say that, like, we are
two people who have given a lot of thought to doing,
like in the professional sense, like the couple therapy, which
apparently is very common among podcast co hosts. What do
you mean there's a lot of there are just a
lot of like duos, front facing like public facing duos

(01:12:09):
end up finding some sort of like analytical space for
them to like work out.

Speaker 4 (01:12:16):
Oh I'm super interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
Well, but also best friends, I mean that's what we
were saying. Like it's like when you when we when
we were just best friends in our twenties and we
just started to start this podcast together for fun. When
you're like, hey, do you want to do this fun
thing with me? You're not thinking, hey do you want
to be in twelve years time? Counting my business partner,
the person that I'm relying on, also my best friend,

(01:12:38):
the person I'm next to on stage, the person who
has to you know, answer that email. You know what
I mean. It's just a really transformative Yes, yes, transformative,
all encompassing important relationship.

Speaker 3 (01:12:51):
You know, I.

Speaker 4 (01:12:52):
Would love to hear about that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:54):
Yeah, all right, yeah, interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:12:58):
Yeah you when I have my podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
Well, it's funny because we like It's then that my
therapist says, I don't think that you guys need it
because we do communicate like well, but mediator was used.
We use the word mediator if we just can't agree one.

Speaker 3 (01:13:17):
Day, court mandated. Just kidding. This has been sublime for me.

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
To me as well. It's been such a pleasure to
meet you. And it really is. It is an endlessly
fascinating show. And I mean that's just one way to
describe it. I mean, it's just it. It really nourishes
me to watch it, and again it makes me excited
to be in my own therapy. I don't know if
that means I'm a performative nightmare, but but it really does.

Speaker 4 (01:13:45):
Awesome, Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:13:47):
We end every episode with a song.

Speaker 2 (01:13:50):
What am I going to say?

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
I have an idea, but it's it's just the instrumental.

Speaker 2 (01:13:54):
It just can't be loud because of of course hold on. Also,
our tones of voice have been it's usually much more
of a gay scream. But this has to be a
gay coup because of Miko, because I know this is
how you speak to them.

Speaker 3 (01:14:06):
Okay, here we and hopefully we all get it. Okay,
here we go? Is the couple therapy didn't even.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):
By the way he positioned his mouth.

Speaker 4 (01:14:24):
I know this was familiar to me, and I was like, wait,
what is it?

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
I failed?

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
I failed, So more of this stream couple's therapy.

Speaker 3 (01:14:38):
Last Culture Racist is the production by Will Ferrell's Big
Money Players in iHeartRadio Podcasts.

Speaker 2 (01:14:42):
Created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, executive
produced by Anna Hasby and produced by Becca Ramos, edited
and mixed by Doug Babe, and our music is by
Henry Komirski

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Hosts And Creators

Bowen Yang

Matt Rogers

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