August 19, 2026 • 35 mins
Content warning: this episode discusses child death, maternal mental illness, and suicide
This week, Diosa and Mala discuss the harrowing case of Lindsay Clancy, a Massachusetts mother on trial for the murder of her three children. Behind the sensational headlines and viral content, there's a devastating and complicated story: Clancy's defense claims she was suffering from postpartum psychosis, a condition that affects about 1 in 1,000 new mothers. In this episode, las Locatoras discuss maternal healthcare, healthcare inequities, and why community care is so important when systems fail to keep us safe.
Resources:
You can reach the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
The National Maternal Mental Health Hotline can be reached at 1-833-TLC-MAMA.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Her defense says that she was in the grips of
bipolar disorder and postpartum psychosis, which, for those listening, is
a rare post pregnancy condition that can alter a woman's
sense of reality, and in fact, a forensic psychiatrist diagnosed
Clancy with those conditions after the killings.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This case definitely shines a light on what postpartum psychosis is.
What this case has also revealed is that there's very
little research, very little funding, very little information about postpartum psychosis.
It does affect one to two one thousand people after
giving birth, so that is a considerably low number, but
(00:43):
because of lack of resources and funding and research, the
women and people who do have postpartum psychosis are not
receiving the proper dignosis or care. Ola I'm Theosa and
I'm Mala. You're listening to Loka Thoa Radio.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
A radiophonic novella.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Which is just an extra way of saying a podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Today's episode is rather heavy, so a quick content warning
for all those listening and watching. Today we are going
to be talking about the case of Lindsey Clancy. This
episode will include discussions of postpartum psychosis, violence, infanticide and
the like. So if you need to take a break
(01:26):
or skip this episode for this week, please take care
of yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
So we don't often cover national, nationwide cases, but I
think this one in particular, we felt really cold to
talk about because there's so many layers when it comes
to women's health, postpartum care or lack thereof, and I
think that was one of the reasons we wanted to
pay extra attention to this case on Look at Thora
(01:52):
this week. And like many things they gain nationwide attention,
there's somewhat of a virality that happens to these types
of cases. We talked about this phenomenon a couple seasons
ago during the Johnny deubcase and how we saw folks
online talking about Amber heard even though she was not
(02:13):
the one on trial.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
When women have been at the center and have been
victimized or maybe unfairly blamed, and there are broader societal
questions at play, we bring it onto the show to dissect.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes, So that's what we'll be doing here today.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
And today's conversation is a mix of questions and observations
based on what's happening with this mother. Lindsay Clancy thirty
six years old from Massachusetts. She has pled not guilty
to murder charges in the death of her children. Caylin
Dawson and Cora Clancy had children ranging from eight months
(02:52):
to five years old, so three kids under the age
of six, and unfortunately, she was suffering from a series
of depressions and mental health issues after the birth of
her youngest child. She was seeking out psychiatric help, inpatient treatment,
outpatient treatment, and eventually she killed all three of her children.
(03:17):
And at play here is the question of whether she voluntarily,
knowingly maliciously killed her children or if she was suffering
from a postpartum psychosis that was improperly treated and improperly
managed by her team of health care professionals. So there
(03:38):
are big conversations about women's health, the health of mothers,
mental health for mothers, the village that it takes for
women to raise their children safely, and also the culpability
in cases like this of mothers who do unfortunately take
the lives of their children. And the trial is being
(03:58):
broadcast out of Masschusets.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
I think one of the really striking things about this
case in particular is that we see a woman and
there's a couple of cases where there are women who
have access to healthcare, have access to psychiatric care in particular,
they're still improperly diagnosed or they're misdiagnosed. And I think
that is also one of the striking things, because we
(04:22):
know that there's health inequities in this country, So when
someone like Lindsay Clancy who has the care and is
still failed, it really raises up a mirror, I think,
to the US, to the healthcare system that we have
in the society that we live in, and how we
really don't care for mothers when someone with this much
access and privilege is still failed.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Absolutely, and Lindsay Clancy was a labor and delivery nurse,
so she herself is a healthcare professional in labor and
delivery and is a middle class white woman from Massachusetts
at the time, with a husband and a family support system,
and like you said, access to mental health resources, to
(05:04):
a team of psychiatrists and nurses and in patient treatment facilities. However,
things get complicated with her care because, as we're learning
throughout the trial, she was attempting to receive help and
was also being turned away that she wasn't qualifying for
certain programs and certain types of treatment, and although she
(05:25):
was expressing these desires to harm herself and harm her children,
she also wasn't meeting the criteria for suicidal ideation or
for like a fifty one to fifty psychiatric hold. So
it's like she was clearly reaching out for help. She
was clearly seeking out psychiatric help. She was trying to
check herself in, but was also not being received completely
(05:49):
and wasn't completely meeting criteria for more severe interventions. Her
defense says that she was in the grips of bipolar
disorder and postpart psychosis, which, for those listening, is a
rare post pregnancy condition that can alter a woman's sense
of reality, and in fact, a forensic psychiatrist diagnosed Clancy
(06:11):
with those conditions after the killings.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
This case definitely shines a light on what postpartum psychosis is.
What this case has also revealed is that there's very
little research, very little funding, very little information about postpartum psychosis.
It does affect one to two one thousand people after
giving birth, so that is a considerably low number, but
(06:38):
because of lack of resources and funding and research, the
women who the women and people who do have postpartum
psychosis are not receiving the proper diagnosis or care.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
And in this case, although she did seek out a
team of psychiatrists, she was prescribed a variety of medication
and different parts of the trial, we're learning up to
eleven to thirteen different types of psychiatric medications were prescribed
to her at different times over the course of several months.
(07:11):
The trial includes cross examination of her healthcare team psychiatrists,
nurses whose role in her care and the eventual murder
of her children are being called into question, and Clancy's
attorneys say that Clancy did everything she possibly could to
seek out help. She turned to multiple outpatient providers, she
(07:32):
tried the drugs that they prescribed, she called a suicide hotline,
She went to the emergency room, and wasn't accepted into
a hospital based full day treatment program for women with
post pregnancy mental health problems. She even checked herself into
a psychiatric hospital for several days, and instead of improving
her condition, worsened under the cocktail of psychiatric medications she
(07:56):
was prescribed, and some of them have been identified as
problem for bipolar patients. And that's something that her attorneys
and family are very adamant about that she was being
mistreated in her course of care.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, and I feel it's really important to also state,
and you know, on a personal level, I've shared on
this podcast that I have I'm newly on medication. I'm
on an antidepressant, and it took several months for me
to feel like myself again or to feel better and
trying different medication. So this woman who was trying these
(08:32):
different medications is different combination as well. At the same time,
I mean, it's really hard to track when you're taking
multiple things that are brand new. You don't know which
one's affecting you if you're taking multiple new things. So
there's I think also considering the time that it takes
for different medications to really take effect. Psychiatric medication usually
takes up to five weeks, up to six weeks to
(08:55):
really see a difference, and so it's clear that in
the immediate the medication was not making a difference for her,
and so I think that is another a thing that's
being highlighted in this case as well.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Right, were they prescribing too many new things too soon?
Was she not giving the medication a chance to adjust
to her system, or was she being rushed into trying
new meds. Were her doses being adjusted prematurely, was she
following the doctor's orders and taking the meds as prescribed.
(09:30):
I think there's a lot of questions about not only
the way that her doctors were prescribing, but also if
she was following through with the medical recommendations. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I mean to be clear, we are not psychiatrists, we
are not doctors. But from my personal experience, I can
say sometimes they make you feel worse before you feel better.
And so I think that a lot of just anecdotal
examples that I've heard from folks that are on medication
is that you feel so so bad that you do
want to get off of it, and you're not giving
your brain and your body a chance to really adjust
(10:04):
because it feels so bad. And I think that that's
often the case for folks that get on and get
off without even letting their doctor know, Like I'm getting
off of it because it feels so horrible, right.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
It also seems to me that there's also the piece
about the stress and the burden in this case of
taking care of three children under the age of six,
And I just wonder if there was relief for her
because over the course of this trial. What we're learning
is she was writing like long Facebook posts pleading for
(10:38):
help and trying to find people who could relate to
her and her difficulties that she was facing raising her
three children. She was journaling about how exhausted she was
and how stressed out she was. And I am curious
to know, aside from the medical piece at home, like
(10:59):
what sort of help was being provided to her. Was
she being given breaks, Was there some other form of
help from her husband, from the father of her children,
from their extended family, their support system to give her
time to rest and to help with the childcare. Because
I think that, of course, right now, the question is
about the mental illness, the psychosis, the meds. But I
(11:23):
think that there's a bigger picture to be painted here
about what mothers need when they're struggling, and it's not
just mental health care and treatment and meds. I think
it's also the at home support system.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, I mean, and I think it highlights not just
the mental health piece that you just mentioned, but also
like the societal failures right from the supposed village that
we are supposed to have, right or. I think there's
also this expectation for mothers to just suffer in silence
(12:01):
to just deal with it. And from what you know,
my own research right about motherhood vote from what I've
learned about mothers sharing their experience is that they don't
necessarily want to talk about publicly about the quote downside
or just the challenges of being a mother, especially to
a newborn. And so I can imagine a situation where
(12:22):
she's was completely siloed. Maybe she was talking on social media,
but was she talking to her direct circle of support?
I think is a big question as well.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Absolutely, And because so we're talking about postpartum psychosis, which
is I think the most severe on the range of
postpartum mental health issues. And before you get to a
postpartum psychosis, there are mothers who experience postpartum depression. And
my understanding is at a big piece of the postpartum
(12:53):
depression is feelings of worthlessness as a mother, feelings of failure.
There's isolate involved because a lot of mothers are spending
most of their day alone with their new baby while
their partners are working and other people are out doing
their thing. New moms tend to be alone with their
(13:13):
babies for long periods of time, and that depression can
make it very difficult to do everyday tasks and it
can be very debilitating. And then before the postpartum depression,
there's postpartum blues, which is more like a change in
mood and feeling maybe agitated, and that might have a
(13:35):
little bit more to do with your hormonal changes in
the days after giving birth, and it's not quite as
debilitating as a depression. So there's like a range of
experiences that new mothers might encounter after giving birth, and
it's really really common. It's really common, and I think,
like to your point, when you're a new mother, I
(13:58):
think there's this expectation that this is the happiest time
in your life, and this is your new baby, and
your new baby is the love of your life, and
it's a love like you've never felt before, and it's
supposed to be nothing but joy. But then there are
these other factors that come into play that I think
can probably be very i don't know, difficult for a
(14:22):
woman to acknowledge that I'm not that happy. I'm struggling,
like I need help and my baby is stressing me out.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, And I think this new generation of mothers who
are creating content at least or writing about motherhood in particular,
are really speaking to that of the challenges and it's
not just this beautiful bliss, it's this change of identity,
even acknowledging pregnancy as a type of trauma, and how
it takes years for folks who give birth to feel
(14:52):
like themselves again and feeling like there was a huge
transformation that happened. And so I think that is one
of the things I've seen online in particular, is how
this generation of mothers are really shining light and really
speaking to their own experience that pushes back against this
narrative that motherhood is like the most beautiful thing in
(15:14):
the world it can be.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
But also it's this, Yeah, it's a trauma to the body,
and it's a complete change in your social life. And
Lindsay Clancy, apparently over the course of this trial, we've
also learned that she was writing and expressing that she
just wanted to go back to work and be herself
(15:36):
again and feel like herself again. So I think that's
speaking to that phenomenon. Yeah, it's a complete change and identity.
And I can't imagine I haven't done it, we haven't
done imagined.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, I mean, let's name the elephant in the room.
We're both not mothers, but we have loved ones who
are mother We have mothers, and we have friends who
have become mothers, and we care about women's health. Don't
go anywhere locomotives can be right back, and the lack
of care that mothers and children receive in particular in
(16:10):
this country. And so this is why this also matters
to us. We don't have to have the identity to
also care about mental health and postpartum care.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Oh absolutely. And it's sort of the path that we
might be on one day and who knows, like we
might have kids one day, and then we will be
faced maybe with similar circumstances and experiences and facing our own,
you know, issues in light of new motherhood. So I
(16:42):
think like when it happens to one woman, the possibility
is that it could happen, oh yeah, to any other woman.
It can happen to you, It could happen to me,
It could happen to our listeners. And I'm sure that
we have listeners because I know we have listeners who
our mothers, who perhaps can relate to some of the
things that we're talking about today, whether it's the postpartum
(17:02):
blues or full on postpartum depression, or just feelings of isolation,
feelings of being a completely different person and adopting a
new identity and how hard that must be.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, I read this article that was just published in Vogue,
and the writer talks about her own experience with postpartum psychosis.
A few months after giving birth, she was taking the
train home to New York City and she started to
feel like everyone was following her. Everyone on the subway
(17:32):
was like out to get her. And then when she
got home, she felt like her husband was out to
get her. And she had a very supportive partner where
he immediately jumped into action called her psychiatrist. She was
able to get incredible care. She was treated at a
psychiatric hospital and every few hours her doctors would ask
(17:53):
her a question. And she really believed that she was
a prophet, and so when they were asking her, these
questions would go by and her answer wouldn't change. They
knew like, Okay, we haven't found exactly what it is yet.
Eventually they were able to give her the diagnosis of
postpartum psychosis, and she was able to get better and
she's able to identify so much with Lindsay Clancy, and
(18:18):
she writes this essay and she's one example of how
she got the care that she needed and it didn't
lead to this tragedy. And she had the supportive partner
and the right care team that really gave her not
only the emotional and mental support, but the psychiatric support
that she needed.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, it's so tough to look at these two women
side by side because it looks like Lindsay Clancy tried
so hard and sought after that care and just didn't
get She didn't get what she needed.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I think that's one of the reasons this case has
really caught the attention that it has is that I
think women in particular are really seeing how sad this is.
I don't think I've seen anybody deny her guilt right
or deny her actions of what she did. I think
more so really understanding and having a lot of sympathy
(19:16):
for what she was going through and of course for
the children and their lives, but also considering that she
tried so hard to get care and it failed.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Part of this is the legal piece of it, in
that there is the legal question of intent, and in
this country, women who kill their children the question is
was it malicious and on purpose or were they suffering
from a postpart of mental health issue? And it's that's
(19:50):
what they're teasing out, is was she sick enough that
she be we can find her guilty by reason of
insanity or is she not meeting our legal criteria and
standards for being considered like legally insane and incapacitated in
the moment when she killed her kids. And in my
research for this case, what I found is that most
(20:14):
other countries that are considered like developed nations, when a
mother kills her children and the child is under the
age of five, it is assumed that she was suffering
from a postpartum psychosis or depression and is put into
a treatment facility and is not criminally charged like in
places like New Zealand, South Africa and the UK, when
(20:36):
these things happen, the woman is not put on trial
and charged with a crime. Here, However, in the United States,
like our legal system and our medical definitions are two
very different sets of criteria. So while there is a
medical criteria for what qualifies someone as able to be
(21:00):
diagnosed with like a postpartum psychosis, like this forensic psychiatrist
diagnosed her with postpartum psychosis. You know, the medical professional said, yes,
she has it, she had it. But the legal definitions
for insanity are different than the clinical like diagnoses for
a psychosis. So although it's been determined by a doctor
(21:23):
that she has the thing, the law still has to
find for itself whether or not she's legally culpable for
what she did, which I think is like a really
key piece of all of this, and like why a
mother is on trial and she's not the only one.
There have been other mothers who have been taken to
(21:45):
trial for killing their children. In twenty fifteen, here in California,
in Torrance, a Latina, Carol Coronado, was convicted of a first
degree murder for killing her three daughters. There's a twenty
twenty article from NPR kqed the California report was recently republished,
(22:07):
and there's renewed conversation around not only postpartum psychosis, but
Carol Coronado and her case because, unlike Lindsay Clancy, Carol
Godonado didn't seek out mental health care, she didn't seek
out psychiatric help. I think back then even more so,
there was even less awareness around postpartum issues and postpartum psychosis.
(22:33):
So she pled not guilty by reason of insanity for
the murders of her three daughters. And it was only
after she was in custody that several psychiatric experts said
that Carol Godnado was psychotic when she killed her three daughters.
But in California, proving insanity is a moral test and
(22:55):
not a clinical one. And this actually has really interesting
legal orgs that go all the way back to the
killing of Harvey Milk and the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan.
Because those men who like the man John Hinckley, who
attempted to assassinate Ronald Reagan, he pled not guilty by
(23:17):
reason of insanity, and he was not put into prison,
he was put into a mental health facility. And there
was like outrage all over the country, and then laws
throughout the country in different states were changed to make
it much more difficult to use insanity as a defense,
and in the state of California was something similar happened
(23:39):
when Harvey Milk and the mayor of San Francisco at
the time were killed. But the man who killed Harvey
Milk also pled not guilty by reason of insanity and
also did not go to prison, and at the time
there were riots in San Francisco because of it. So
in California, it's very, very, very very tough to use
that as defense. And in the case of Carol Coronado, again,
(24:03):
where the doctors found her to have been psychotic at
the time that she killed her kids, that wasn't enough
for her to be found not guilty or for the
insanity plea to kick in, and she was convicted of
murder and sent to prison. And what I think is
really interesting is Carol's husband, Rudy Goronado, he stood by her.
(24:26):
There's footage online from the press conference outside of the trial,
outside of the courthouse, and the reporters are asking him,
you know, did you see signs that there was something
going on with your wife before she killed the girls?
And he said that he saw the signs, but he
didn't know what they were. He didn't know what to
do with them. He didn't have any awareness, He had
(24:48):
no idea that postpartum issues were a thing, or that
postpartum psychosis existed. And he identified like a lack of
education and a lack of awareness as being the culprit
and the key problem here, like he didn't blame her
because he knew basically she was out of her mind.
And in that press conference he speaks to the need
(25:10):
to raise awareness and to make parents aware of the
signs and symptoms so that people can seek out help,
which I think is really amazing for him, but also
extremely sad, you know, because these two cases are so
different in that Lindsay Clancy sought out treatment, she was
receiving treatment, but it wasn't enough and it still ended
(25:32):
in tragedy. And this woman, Carol, she didn't know, she
didn't seek out treatment and it ended in tragedy. And
so like what is the solution? You know, these are
two extremes. And I think about like new parents and
expecting mothers, how people have to take like Lama's classes
and parenting classes. And I think a case like this
(25:55):
could be a watershed moment where this type of prenatal
education is required to be made aware of the signs
the symptoms of postpartum blues, postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis so
people know when to seek out.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
How Yeah, definitely, I mean yeah, I think I mean
the case that you mentioned, and then of course this
case with Lindsay Clancy, and also my research, I saw
how there is like a racial disparity in sentencing and
who gets nationwide attention. And there was this write up
(26:32):
in The New Yorker from twenty twenty three where the
journalist talks about the rights about the Lindsay Clancy case,
but also references and talks to black mothers and their
spouses who also were experiencing postpartum psychosis. And in one case,
in particular, the this woman in New York, she does
(26:54):
kill her three children. She's a black woman, and the
same thing, her husband stands by her and he crowdfunds
for her. Of the fifteen thousand goal on GoFundMe, they
only reach eight thousand, and he very much echoed the
same sentiment he didn't know what the signs were and
he was going to stand by her. Now we have
(27:16):
Patrick Clancy, who actually received like a million dollars in
support by the public. Because one got national attention and
another didn't. And so there are we talked about at
the top of the episode, the health equity piece, and
there's also a racial equity piece too of who gets
(27:37):
to even be seen as like a victim of psychosis?
Right and who is instead incarcerated and not given that
same sympathy or empathy or even reason of insanity.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Absolutely, there's a disparities at all angles here curtently, and
it's so scary and difficult to digest and difficult to
tease out, difficult to understand. And I hope that there's
some some shift nationally.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I think, you know, I mean, it would be great
if we in this country could get paid parntal leave
in a substantial one because I think even what does
exist now, and if you do have it, it's like
six weeks, and I think a lot of it is
dependent on like the company that you work for and
what they're able to give you. So I think one
(28:33):
is like paid parental leave, right, health care for all, right,
access to psychiatric care for everyone. And I think until
we have those systemic shifts, we have to call back
in community care. And if you have a mother in
your neighborhood, in your community, a new mother, like how
(28:54):
can we show up for her? How can you also
be part of her village?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Right?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
And I think the realities of being a part of
someone's village is sometimes being inconvenienced, like being providing care
is not always like fun and beautiful and like instagrammable.
You know, it's like showing up like even when you've
had a bad day, but you know, like that person
really needs your support right now. And I was also
(29:22):
thinking about a birth worker and postpartum worker, postpartum care worker, Banketsani,
who we've had on Senora Sex and folks may know
her as Indie Himama, and she published a book about
She published a book about postpartum and it's called Thriving
Postpartum and it's about la guarentina and so in indigenous
(29:46):
practices and it's still practiced today, there's this concept of
being like under quarantine if you're a new mother for
forty days, and it's one like relinquishing like your self
to like complete and total care buy your community, and
it's there's there's quite a few rules, but the ones
(30:07):
that I know, it's like you can't take cold showers,
you have to eat warm food, you have to have
your feet covered, you have to have your your tummy wrapped,
your faha, your faha, and so there's all these different
things that you do during the quad and thina. And
so I think this book in particular is a resource
for one new parents. But two, like if you have
(30:30):
a homegirl that's going to have a baby, like, how
can you show up for her? You know, how can
you really be part of that system of care and
support when we know we have systemic failures, you know,
And I think that that's it's still on the individual,
on the community, when there's no systemic change, when we
know we don't have you know, health care for all.
(30:52):
We know, we don't have paid parental leaf for all.
These are ways that I think we have to step
up as individuals. Don't go anywhere looking is We'll be
right back, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
It's so interesting. And my mom did that when she
was recovering from childbirth, and she talks about it like,
you know, you stay home for at least thirty days
and you don't like take the baby out for at
least thirty days so that the baby can like get
its bearings and get strong. And it's the same for
the mother. And it's a also protection from like you know,
(31:27):
getting sick, right, and just like the elements. But the
way that you describe it kind of reminds me of
the way people show up after a death in the family.
It's like the process for taking care of someone in
mourning and after delivery are very similar when life ends
(31:49):
and when life begins, going to the home and bringing food,
helping to clean, you know, taking care of the person
in question who has lost some one or who has
just gained a baby. And it's just so fascinating the
way those two processes have so many similarities and how
the community is required the family is required to show
(32:11):
up in very very similar ways.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, I mean, and not to be too tangential, but
there are death dulas. You know, we know birth doulas,
but there's also a practice of death dulas, right, and
so being that the dula is that person helping the
dying one transition out of this realm and also helping
(32:35):
the family with the transition. So there is that life
and death, that energetic I think cycle that there's also
care workers who are enacting that and supporting the families
with that absolutely.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And I think there are other models for how women
can be supported in a community setting when they're dealing
with their postpartum blues or their depression. So there's actually
a new documentary from BBC Louis Thureau spend some time
in UK specialist psychiatric units, which treat mothers experiencing serious
(33:08):
mental illness while also allowing them to live with their babies.
So these women are able to take their babies with
them and live in a sort of community hospital setting
with other women and learn how to cope but also
how to mother through their illness, their depression, their anxiety,
(33:29):
which I don't think and I have never heard of
anything like that here.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I don't think that exists. And if it does, it's
probably very expensive. And you're a certain type of person, yeah,
someone with money, Yeah, a wealthy person.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
And so I encourage you guys to look into this
documentary if this topic is of interest to you, and
to read the book that Yosa just plugged, because I
think there are other ways of doing things, and the
way that we're doing things here, like so many other things,
is just not working.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Work.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
There's other models, like, there's other ways to do things
and to fix this this.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Wound absolutely, and I think, you know, there's my friends
who have had babies, like I've joined like meal trains,
you know, and that's I think one way that you
can support a new parent is by feeding them literally,
like if it's either dropping off meals or sending gift
(34:24):
cards so they can order food. I think that that's
one really big way that you can help. And I
think also establishing what that is before right the person
gives birth right, because then like everything changes, and so
I think having those expectations like of a friend of
your community member, I think is important so that you
(34:46):
can show up in ways that are needed.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
So important, and there's other resources out there. If you're
struggling yourself or you know somebody who's struggling, you can
reach the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at nine eight eight
and the Samaritan Statewide Hotline at eight seven seven eight
seven d hope. There's also the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline,
which can be reached at one eight three three TLC.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Mama, well, this was a heavy episode.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Very heavy episode. Take care of yourselves. Thank you for listening,
and we will catch you next time.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Bans Us look Alumnia
Her defense says that she was in the grips of
bipolar disorder and postpartum psychosis, which, for those listening, is
a rare post pregnancy condition that can alter a woman's
sense of reality, and in fact, a forensic psychiatrist diagnosed
Clancy with those conditions after the killings.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This case definitely shines a light on what postpartum psychosis is.
What this case has also revealed is that there's very
little research, very little funding, very little information about postpartum psychosis.
It does affect one to two one thousand people after
giving birth, so that is a considerably low number, but
(00:43):
because of lack of resources and funding and research, the
women and people who do have postpartum psychosis are not
receiving the proper dignosis or care. Ola I'm Theosa and
I'm Mala. You're listening to Loka Thoa Radio.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
A radiophonic novella.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Which is just an extra way of saying a podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Today's episode is rather heavy, so a quick content warning
for all those listening and watching. Today we are going
to be talking about the case of Lindsey Clancy. This
episode will include discussions of postpartum psychosis, violence, infanticide and
the like. So if you need to take a break
(01:26):
or skip this episode for this week, please take care
of yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
So we don't often cover national, nationwide cases, but I
think this one in particular, we felt really cold to
talk about because there's so many layers when it comes
to women's health, postpartum care or lack thereof, and I
think that was one of the reasons we wanted to
pay extra attention to this case on Look at Thora
(01:52):
this week. And like many things they gain nationwide attention,
there's somewhat of a virality that happens to these types
of cases. We talked about this phenomenon a couple seasons
ago during the Johnny deubcase and how we saw folks
online talking about Amber heard even though she was not
(02:13):
the one on trial.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
When women have been at the center and have been
victimized or maybe unfairly blamed, and there are broader societal
questions at play, we bring it onto the show to dissect.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes, So that's what we'll be doing here today.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
And today's conversation is a mix of questions and observations
based on what's happening with this mother. Lindsay Clancy thirty
six years old from Massachusetts. She has pled not guilty
to murder charges in the death of her children. Caylin
Dawson and Cora Clancy had children ranging from eight months
(02:52):
to five years old, so three kids under the age
of six, and unfortunately, she was suffering from a series
of depressions and mental health issues after the birth of
her youngest child. She was seeking out psychiatric help, inpatient treatment,
outpatient treatment, and eventually she killed all three of her children.
(03:17):
And at play here is the question of whether she voluntarily,
knowingly maliciously killed her children or if she was suffering
from a postpartum psychosis that was improperly treated and improperly
managed by her team of health care professionals. So there
(03:38):
are big conversations about women's health, the health of mothers,
mental health for mothers, the village that it takes for
women to raise their children safely, and also the culpability
in cases like this of mothers who do unfortunately take
the lives of their children. And the trial is being
(03:58):
broadcast out of Masschusets.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
I think one of the really striking things about this
case in particular is that we see a woman and
there's a couple of cases where there are women who
have access to healthcare, have access to psychiatric care in particular,
they're still improperly diagnosed or they're misdiagnosed. And I think
that is also one of the striking things, because we
(04:22):
know that there's health inequities in this country, So when
someone like Lindsay Clancy who has the care and is
still failed, it really raises up a mirror, I think,
to the US, to the healthcare system that we have
in the society that we live in, and how we
really don't care for mothers when someone with this much
access and privilege is still failed.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Absolutely, and Lindsay Clancy was a labor and delivery nurse,
so she herself is a healthcare professional in labor and
delivery and is a middle class white woman from Massachusetts
at the time, with a husband and a family support system,
and like you said, access to mental health resources, to
(05:04):
a team of psychiatrists and nurses and in patient treatment facilities. However,
things get complicated with her care because, as we're learning
throughout the trial, she was attempting to receive help and
was also being turned away that she wasn't qualifying for
certain programs and certain types of treatment, and although she
(05:25):
was expressing these desires to harm herself and harm her children,
she also wasn't meeting the criteria for suicidal ideation or
for like a fifty one to fifty psychiatric hold. So
it's like she was clearly reaching out for help. She
was clearly seeking out psychiatric help. She was trying to
check herself in, but was also not being received completely
(05:49):
and wasn't completely meeting criteria for more severe interventions. Her
defense says that she was in the grips of bipolar
disorder and postpart psychosis, which, for those listening, is a
rare post pregnancy condition that can alter a woman's sense
of reality, and in fact, a forensic psychiatrist diagnosed Clancy
(06:11):
with those conditions after the killings.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
This case definitely shines a light on what postpartum psychosis is.
What this case has also revealed is that there's very
little research, very little funding, very little information about postpartum psychosis.
It does affect one to two one thousand people after
giving birth, so that is a considerably low number, but
(06:38):
because of lack of resources and funding and research, the
women who the women and people who do have postpartum
psychosis are not receiving the proper diagnosis or care.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
And in this case, although she did seek out a
team of psychiatrists, she was prescribed a variety of medication
and different parts of the trial, we're learning up to
eleven to thirteen different types of psychiatric medications were prescribed
to her at different times over the course of several months.
(07:11):
The trial includes cross examination of her healthcare team psychiatrists,
nurses whose role in her care and the eventual murder
of her children are being called into question, and Clancy's
attorneys say that Clancy did everything she possibly could to
seek out help. She turned to multiple outpatient providers, she
(07:32):
tried the drugs that they prescribed, she called a suicide hotline,
She went to the emergency room, and wasn't accepted into
a hospital based full day treatment program for women with
post pregnancy mental health problems. She even checked herself into
a psychiatric hospital for several days, and instead of improving
her condition, worsened under the cocktail of psychiatric medications she
(07:56):
was prescribed, and some of them have been identified as
problem for bipolar patients. And that's something that her attorneys
and family are very adamant about that she was being
mistreated in her course of care.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, and I feel it's really important to also state,
and you know, on a personal level, I've shared on
this podcast that I have I'm newly on medication. I'm
on an antidepressant, and it took several months for me
to feel like myself again or to feel better and
trying different medication. So this woman who was trying these
(08:32):
different medications is different combination as well. At the same time,
I mean, it's really hard to track when you're taking
multiple things that are brand new. You don't know which
one's affecting you if you're taking multiple new things. So
there's I think also considering the time that it takes
for different medications to really take effect. Psychiatric medication usually
takes up to five weeks, up to six weeks to
(08:55):
really see a difference, and so it's clear that in
the immediate the medication was not making a difference for her,
and so I think that is another a thing that's
being highlighted in this case as well.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Right, were they prescribing too many new things too soon?
Was she not giving the medication a chance to adjust
to her system, or was she being rushed into trying
new meds. Were her doses being adjusted prematurely, was she
following the doctor's orders and taking the meds as prescribed.
(09:30):
I think there's a lot of questions about not only
the way that her doctors were prescribing, but also if
she was following through with the medical recommendations. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I mean to be clear, we are not psychiatrists, we
are not doctors. But from my personal experience, I can
say sometimes they make you feel worse before you feel better.
And so I think that a lot of just anecdotal
examples that I've heard from folks that are on medication
is that you feel so so bad that you do
want to get off of it, and you're not giving
your brain and your body a chance to really adjust
(10:04):
because it feels so bad. And I think that that's
often the case for folks that get on and get
off without even letting their doctor know, Like I'm getting
off of it because it feels so horrible, right.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
It also seems to me that there's also the piece
about the stress and the burden in this case of
taking care of three children under the age of six,
And I just wonder if there was relief for her
because over the course of this trial. What we're learning
is she was writing like long Facebook posts pleading for
(10:38):
help and trying to find people who could relate to
her and her difficulties that she was facing raising her
three children. She was journaling about how exhausted she was
and how stressed out she was. And I am curious
to know, aside from the medical piece at home, like
(10:59):
what sort of help was being provided to her. Was
she being given breaks, Was there some other form of
help from her husband, from the father of her children,
from their extended family, their support system to give her
time to rest and to help with the childcare. Because
I think that, of course, right now, the question is
about the mental illness, the psychosis, the meds. But I
(11:23):
think that there's a bigger picture to be painted here
about what mothers need when they're struggling, and it's not
just mental health care and treatment and meds. I think
it's also the at home support system.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, I mean, and I think it highlights not just
the mental health piece that you just mentioned, but also
like the societal failures right from the supposed village that
we are supposed to have, right or. I think there's
also this expectation for mothers to just suffer in silence
(12:01):
to just deal with it. And from what you know,
my own research right about motherhood vote from what I've
learned about mothers sharing their experience is that they don't
necessarily want to talk about publicly about the quote downside
or just the challenges of being a mother, especially to
a newborn. And so I can imagine a situation where
(12:22):
she's was completely siloed. Maybe she was talking on social media,
but was she talking to her direct circle of support?
I think is a big question as well.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Absolutely, And because so we're talking about postpartum psychosis, which
is I think the most severe on the range of
postpartum mental health issues. And before you get to a
postpartum psychosis, there are mothers who experience postpartum depression. And
my understanding is at a big piece of the postpartum
(12:53):
depression is feelings of worthlessness as a mother, feelings of failure.
There's isolate involved because a lot of mothers are spending
most of their day alone with their new baby while
their partners are working and other people are out doing
their thing. New moms tend to be alone with their
(13:13):
babies for long periods of time, and that depression can
make it very difficult to do everyday tasks and it
can be very debilitating. And then before the postpartum depression,
there's postpartum blues, which is more like a change in
mood and feeling maybe agitated, and that might have a
(13:35):
little bit more to do with your hormonal changes in
the days after giving birth, and it's not quite as
debilitating as a depression. So there's like a range of
experiences that new mothers might encounter after giving birth, and
it's really really common. It's really common, and I think,
like to your point, when you're a new mother, I
(13:58):
think there's this expectation that this is the happiest time
in your life, and this is your new baby, and
your new baby is the love of your life, and
it's a love like you've never felt before, and it's
supposed to be nothing but joy. But then there are
these other factors that come into play that I think
can probably be very i don't know, difficult for a
(14:22):
woman to acknowledge that I'm not that happy. I'm struggling,
like I need help and my baby is stressing me out.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, And I think this new generation of mothers who
are creating content at least or writing about motherhood in particular,
are really speaking to that of the challenges and it's
not just this beautiful bliss, it's this change of identity,
even acknowledging pregnancy as a type of trauma, and how
it takes years for folks who give birth to feel
(14:52):
like themselves again and feeling like there was a huge
transformation that happened. And so I think that is one
of the things I've seen online in particular, is how
this generation of mothers are really shining light and really
speaking to their own experience that pushes back against this
narrative that motherhood is like the most beautiful thing in
(15:14):
the world it can be.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
But also it's this, Yeah, it's a trauma to the body,
and it's a complete change in your social life. And
Lindsay Clancy, apparently over the course of this trial, we've
also learned that she was writing and expressing that she
just wanted to go back to work and be herself
(15:36):
again and feel like herself again. So I think that's
speaking to that phenomenon. Yeah, it's a complete change and identity.
And I can't imagine I haven't done it, we haven't
done imagined.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, I mean, let's name the elephant in the room.
We're both not mothers, but we have loved ones who
are mother We have mothers, and we have friends who
have become mothers, and we care about women's health. Don't
go anywhere locomotives can be right back, and the lack
of care that mothers and children receive in particular in
(16:10):
this country. And so this is why this also matters
to us. We don't have to have the identity to
also care about mental health and postpartum care.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Oh absolutely. And it's sort of the path that we
might be on one day and who knows, like we
might have kids one day, and then we will be
faced maybe with similar circumstances and experiences and facing our own,
you know, issues in light of new motherhood. So I
(16:42):
think like when it happens to one woman, the possibility
is that it could happen, oh yeah, to any other woman.
It can happen to you, It could happen to me,
It could happen to our listeners. And I'm sure that
we have listeners because I know we have listeners who
our mothers, who perhaps can relate to some of the
things that we're talking about today, whether it's the postpartum
(17:02):
blues or full on postpartum depression, or just feelings of isolation,
feelings of being a completely different person and adopting a
new identity and how hard that must be.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, I read this article that was just published in Vogue,
and the writer talks about her own experience with postpartum psychosis.
A few months after giving birth, she was taking the
train home to New York City and she started to
feel like everyone was following her. Everyone on the subway
(17:32):
was like out to get her. And then when she
got home, she felt like her husband was out to
get her. And she had a very supportive partner where
he immediately jumped into action called her psychiatrist. She was
able to get incredible care. She was treated at a
psychiatric hospital and every few hours her doctors would ask
(17:53):
her a question. And she really believed that she was
a prophet, and so when they were asking her, these
questions would go by and her answer wouldn't change. They
knew like, Okay, we haven't found exactly what it is yet.
Eventually they were able to give her the diagnosis of
postpartum psychosis, and she was able to get better and
she's able to identify so much with Lindsay Clancy, and
(18:18):
she writes this essay and she's one example of how
she got the care that she needed and it didn't
lead to this tragedy. And she had the supportive partner
and the right care team that really gave her not
only the emotional and mental support, but the psychiatric support
that she needed.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, it's so tough to look at these two women
side by side because it looks like Lindsay Clancy tried
so hard and sought after that care and just didn't
get She didn't get what she needed.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I think that's one of the reasons this case has
really caught the attention that it has is that I
think women in particular are really seeing how sad this is.
I don't think I've seen anybody deny her guilt right
or deny her actions of what she did. I think
more so really understanding and having a lot of sympathy
(19:16):
for what she was going through and of course for
the children and their lives, but also considering that she
tried so hard to get care and it failed.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Part of this is the legal piece of it, in
that there is the legal question of intent, and in
this country, women who kill their children the question is
was it malicious and on purpose or were they suffering
from a postpart of mental health issue? And it's that's
(19:50):
what they're teasing out, is was she sick enough that
she be we can find her guilty by reason of
insanity or is she not meeting our legal criteria and
standards for being considered like legally insane and incapacitated in
the moment when she killed her kids. And in my
research for this case, what I found is that most
(20:14):
other countries that are considered like developed nations, when a
mother kills her children and the child is under the
age of five, it is assumed that she was suffering
from a postpartum psychosis or depression and is put into
a treatment facility and is not criminally charged like in
places like New Zealand, South Africa and the UK, when
(20:36):
these things happen, the woman is not put on trial
and charged with a crime. Here, However, in the United States,
like our legal system and our medical definitions are two
very different sets of criteria. So while there is a
medical criteria for what qualifies someone as able to be
(21:00):
diagnosed with like a postpartum psychosis, like this forensic psychiatrist
diagnosed her with postpartum psychosis. You know, the medical professional said, yes,
she has it, she had it. But the legal definitions
for insanity are different than the clinical like diagnoses for
a psychosis. So although it's been determined by a doctor
(21:23):
that she has the thing, the law still has to
find for itself whether or not she's legally culpable for
what she did, which I think is like a really
key piece of all of this, and like why a
mother is on trial and she's not the only one.
There have been other mothers who have been taken to
(21:45):
trial for killing their children. In twenty fifteen, here in California,
in Torrance, a Latina, Carol Coronado, was convicted of a first
degree murder for killing her three daughters. There's a twenty
twenty article from NPR kqed the California report was recently republished,
(22:07):
and there's renewed conversation around not only postpartum psychosis, but
Carol Coronado and her case because, unlike Lindsay Clancy, Carol
Godonado didn't seek out mental health care, she didn't seek
out psychiatric help. I think back then even more so,
there was even less awareness around postpartum issues and postpartum psychosis.
(22:33):
So she pled not guilty by reason of insanity for
the murders of her three daughters. And it was only
after she was in custody that several psychiatric experts said
that Carol Godnado was psychotic when she killed her three daughters.
But in California, proving insanity is a moral test and
(22:55):
not a clinical one. And this actually has really interesting
legal orgs that go all the way back to the
killing of Harvey Milk and the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan.
Because those men who like the man John Hinckley, who
attempted to assassinate Ronald Reagan, he pled not guilty by
(23:17):
reason of insanity, and he was not put into prison,
he was put into a mental health facility. And there
was like outrage all over the country, and then laws
throughout the country in different states were changed to make
it much more difficult to use insanity as a defense,
and in the state of California was something similar happened
(23:39):
when Harvey Milk and the mayor of San Francisco at
the time were killed. But the man who killed Harvey
Milk also pled not guilty by reason of insanity and
also did not go to prison, and at the time
there were riots in San Francisco because of it. So
in California, it's very, very, very very tough to use
that as defense. And in the case of Carol Coronado, again,
(24:03):
where the doctors found her to have been psychotic at
the time that she killed her kids, that wasn't enough
for her to be found not guilty or for the
insanity plea to kick in, and she was convicted of
murder and sent to prison. And what I think is
really interesting is Carol's husband, Rudy Goronado, he stood by her.
(24:26):
There's footage online from the press conference outside of the trial,
outside of the courthouse, and the reporters are asking him,
you know, did you see signs that there was something
going on with your wife before she killed the girls?
And he said that he saw the signs, but he
didn't know what they were. He didn't know what to
do with them. He didn't have any awareness, He had
(24:48):
no idea that postpartum issues were a thing, or that
postpartum psychosis existed. And he identified like a lack of
education and a lack of awareness as being the culprit
and the key problem here, like he didn't blame her
because he knew basically she was out of her mind.
And in that press conference he speaks to the need
(25:10):
to raise awareness and to make parents aware of the
signs and symptoms so that people can seek out help,
which I think is really amazing for him, but also
extremely sad, you know, because these two cases are so
different in that Lindsay Clancy sought out treatment, she was
receiving treatment, but it wasn't enough and it still ended
(25:32):
in tragedy. And this woman, Carol, she didn't know, she
didn't seek out treatment and it ended in tragedy. And
so like what is the solution? You know, these are
two extremes. And I think about like new parents and
expecting mothers, how people have to take like Lama's classes
and parenting classes. And I think a case like this
(25:55):
could be a watershed moment where this type of prenatal
education is required to be made aware of the signs
the symptoms of postpartum blues, postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis so
people know when to seek out.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
How Yeah, definitely, I mean yeah, I think I mean
the case that you mentioned, and then of course this
case with Lindsay Clancy, and also my research, I saw
how there is like a racial disparity in sentencing and
who gets nationwide attention. And there was this write up
(26:32):
in The New Yorker from twenty twenty three where the
journalist talks about the rights about the Lindsay Clancy case,
but also references and talks to black mothers and their
spouses who also were experiencing postpartum psychosis. And in one case,
in particular, the this woman in New York, she does
(26:54):
kill her three children. She's a black woman, and the
same thing, her husband stands by her and he crowdfunds
for her. Of the fifteen thousand goal on GoFundMe, they
only reach eight thousand, and he very much echoed the
same sentiment he didn't know what the signs were and
he was going to stand by her. Now we have
(27:16):
Patrick Clancy, who actually received like a million dollars in
support by the public. Because one got national attention and
another didn't. And so there are we talked about at
the top of the episode, the health equity piece, and
there's also a racial equity piece too of who gets
(27:37):
to even be seen as like a victim of psychosis?
Right and who is instead incarcerated and not given that
same sympathy or empathy or even reason of insanity.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Absolutely, there's a disparities at all angles here curtently, and
it's so scary and difficult to digest and difficult to
tease out, difficult to understand. And I hope that there's
some some shift nationally.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I think, you know, I mean, it would be great
if we in this country could get paid parntal leave
in a substantial one because I think even what does
exist now, and if you do have it, it's like
six weeks, and I think a lot of it is
dependent on like the company that you work for and
what they're able to give you. So I think one
(28:33):
is like paid parental leave, right, health care for all, right,
access to psychiatric care for everyone. And I think until
we have those systemic shifts, we have to call back
in community care. And if you have a mother in
your neighborhood, in your community, a new mother, like how
(28:54):
can we show up for her? How can you also
be part of her village?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Right?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
And I think the realities of being a part of
someone's village is sometimes being inconvenienced, like being providing care
is not always like fun and beautiful and like instagrammable.
You know, it's like showing up like even when you've
had a bad day, but you know, like that person
really needs your support right now. And I was also
(29:22):
thinking about a birth worker and postpartum worker, postpartum care worker, Banketsani,
who we've had on Senora Sex and folks may know
her as Indie Himama, and she published a book about
She published a book about postpartum and it's called Thriving
Postpartum and it's about la guarentina and so in indigenous
(29:46):
practices and it's still practiced today, there's this concept of
being like under quarantine if you're a new mother for
forty days, and it's one like relinquishing like your self
to like complete and total care buy your community, and
it's there's there's quite a few rules, but the ones
(30:07):
that I know, it's like you can't take cold showers,
you have to eat warm food, you have to have
your feet covered, you have to have your your tummy wrapped,
your faha, your faha, and so there's all these different
things that you do during the quad and thina. And
so I think this book in particular is a resource
for one new parents. But two, like if you have
(30:30):
a homegirl that's going to have a baby, like, how
can you show up for her? You know, how can
you really be part of that system of care and
support when we know we have systemic failures, you know,
And I think that that's it's still on the individual,
on the community, when there's no systemic change, when we
know we don't have you know, health care for all.
(30:52):
We know, we don't have paid parental leaf for all.
These are ways that I think we have to step
up as individuals. Don't go anywhere looking is We'll be
right back, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
It's so interesting. And my mom did that when she
was recovering from childbirth, and she talks about it like,
you know, you stay home for at least thirty days
and you don't like take the baby out for at
least thirty days so that the baby can like get
its bearings and get strong. And it's the same for
the mother. And it's a also protection from like you know,
(31:27):
getting sick, right, and just like the elements. But the
way that you describe it kind of reminds me of
the way people show up after a death in the family.
It's like the process for taking care of someone in
mourning and after delivery are very similar when life ends
(31:49):
and when life begins, going to the home and bringing food,
helping to clean, you know, taking care of the person
in question who has lost some one or who has
just gained a baby. And it's just so fascinating the
way those two processes have so many similarities and how
the community is required the family is required to show
(32:11):
up in very very similar ways.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, I mean, and not to be too tangential, but
there are death dulas. You know, we know birth doulas,
but there's also a practice of death dulas, right, and
so being that the dula is that person helping the
dying one transition out of this realm and also helping
(32:35):
the family with the transition. So there is that life
and death, that energetic I think cycle that there's also
care workers who are enacting that and supporting the families
with that absolutely.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And I think there are other models for how women
can be supported in a community setting when they're dealing
with their postpartum blues or their depression. So there's actually
a new documentary from BBC Louis Thureau spend some time
in UK specialist psychiatric units, which treat mothers experiencing serious
(33:08):
mental illness while also allowing them to live with their babies.
So these women are able to take their babies with
them and live in a sort of community hospital setting
with other women and learn how to cope but also
how to mother through their illness, their depression, their anxiety,
(33:29):
which I don't think and I have never heard of
anything like that here.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I don't think that exists. And if it does, it's
probably very expensive. And you're a certain type of person, yeah,
someone with money, Yeah, a wealthy person.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
And so I encourage you guys to look into this
documentary if this topic is of interest to you, and
to read the book that Yosa just plugged, because I
think there are other ways of doing things, and the
way that we're doing things here, like so many other things,
is just not working.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Work.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
There's other models, like, there's other ways to do things
and to fix this this.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Wound absolutely, and I think, you know, there's my friends
who have had babies, like I've joined like meal trains,
you know, and that's I think one way that you
can support a new parent is by feeding them literally,
like if it's either dropping off meals or sending gift
(34:24):
cards so they can order food. I think that that's
one really big way that you can help. And I
think also establishing what that is before right the person
gives birth right, because then like everything changes, and so
I think having those expectations like of a friend of
your community member, I think is important so that you
(34:46):
can show up in ways that are needed.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
So important, and there's other resources out there. If you're
struggling yourself or you know somebody who's struggling, you can
reach the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at nine eight eight
and the Samaritan Statewide Hotline at eight seven seven eight
seven d hope. There's also the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline,
which can be reached at one eight three three TLC.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Mama, well, this was a heavy episode.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Very heavy episode. Take care of yourselves. Thank you for listening,
and we will catch you next time.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Bans Us look Alumnia
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