June 4, 2026 • 36 mins
From licensing to sponsorships to endorsements to full-on artist partnerships, brands have a lot of doorways into music, and marketers love walking through all of them. But the market is paying way less attention than the industry thinks. In this episode of Market Says, hosts Gayle Troberman and Marcus Collins sit down with University of Michigan marketing students to find out which music marketing moves earn a place in young consumers' lives and which ones just become wallpaper.
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Gel.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Before I got into the world of marketing. I used
to be a songwriter. I don't know if you knew that,
but I used to write songs for a living. I
wasn't terribly successful, but it's what I did.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I did not know that. That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yeah, I went to be babyfaced really badly. It didn't
work out for me. That's what I wanted in my life.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
There is still time, Marcus, there is still time.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm holding out hope. But you're the interesting thing to
be a marketer now. I'd used to be at iTunes
doing partner marketing there at Apple before I was running
digital strategy for Beyonce and then going into advertising full stop.
You know, I see so much of marketing and advertising
and music like all sort of jumble together, and you know,
(00:53):
there's some things I just like, absolutely love, and there's
some things that I just absolutely hate, and I go, man,
I was a really good use of that song or
that artist in that context for that brand, and then
other things that go, why in the world would you
ever do this? It just seems so off and they
both seem so obvious. Yet marketers constantly either fumble or
(01:15):
find the right magic.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Yeah, you know obviously, like strategically, it makes a ton
of sense, right. Brands want to be part of the conversation,
they want to be part of culture. So music is
at the heart of culture and conversation. Let's work with artists.
Let's put great music in our ads. The challenge, I
think becomes, it's like all marketing, why why do you
want to be part of this event? Why do you
(01:38):
want to connect through music? And then that might lead
to a bunch of questions. I'd love the market to
tell us more about here. I've got these amazing, real
consumers out in the real world. Is it about I
want to connect with the energy of music, or I
want to connect with the storytelling, or I want to
connect with that artist's journey.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
There's a million ways to do it. I'd love to
hear from the market. What does the market say? What
do you think works or doesn't work?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
So we've got Fagun, we got Julia, we got Katie,
all brilliant, brilliant, brilliant minds from the University of Michigan,
and they are representing the market today. So I ask
you to start just kind of frame us here does
music marketing do they belong together. Are these two worlds
that should be together?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Are you like? Are you with Gail?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
If there's an emotional thing here that's available for brands,
should they navigate it well? Or is this church and
state that should be separated?
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Katie? What say you?
Speaker 5 (02:44):
I personally believe that marketing and music would go tied
together like they they're attached to the hip. They are
something that people are so emotionally connected to, and that's
what marketing is all about, emotionally connecting with people because
that's our job. It's marketers right to get people to move.
Artists still have such a great hold on people because
(03:05):
people connect with them emotionally through their music. So if
marketers can find a way to leverage that emotional connection,
then they can definitely win in the market. In my opinion, yeah,
one hundred percent.
Speaker 6 (03:17):
I think one thing that's in common between marketing and
artists is that both of them are trying to sell
a story, whether it's a brand trying to sell their
own story artists trying to express their life through music.
Because if the brand story aligns with the artist's story,
then that's like a perfect match. And then presenting that
(03:38):
to an audience who will identify and then also believe
in what they're saying. It almost creates magic.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
So storytelling that is congruent. Then where these things go wrong?
Julie like, if this is like just there's no reason
in the world where brands and music shouldn't be wed right,
Why don't we have so many missteps? This is such
an obvious thing, I feel like.
Speaker 7 (04:02):
For me, I think sometimes because music it's such a
universal language, you don't have to speak the language, you
don't have to understand the lyrics to really emotionally connect
with them. And I think, honestly, I feel like I
haven't seen so many terrible music business partnerships before, none
that actually immediately stick out to me. But I think
(04:23):
when it starts bridging on it's very much just for
the financial purposes profiting. When it doesn't feel authentic, or
it's purely just to promote something and it's not about
promoting connection, I think that's when I kind of lose
interest and I kind of just look at it as, Oh,
it's another ad, it's other partnership. It's not worth my
time if it doesn't seek to accomplishly deep down underlying
(04:43):
intention of trying to really connect with audiences.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So there are many modalities here, right, Gail. If I
were thinking about this, if I was putting on my strategy, hat,
I go Oh. There's partnerships, as Julia mentioned, there's licensing
where I'm just going to leverage the music that I
pay for to be a part of my expression, the
storytelling as a brand. There's endorsements where I'm asking the
artists to tell their story and use my brand as
(05:08):
a part of the fodder. Maybe it's a chapter in
their story, or maybe there's a sponsorship. I guys want
my logo next to you.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Like.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Those are like four sort of big buckets or big
doorways whereby brands.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
And music can come together.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So let's take those four buckets and cast them across
the spectrum. One being transactional. I'd probably say licensing is
the most transactional, where I just pay you, you let
me use your ip. We don't even shake hands. I
don't see your face at all, we don't know each other.
For example, Prince notoriously would not let brands use his
(05:44):
music in an advertising. He passes and the estate goes
have at it. And now there is a commercial about
bowling and they're playing let's go crazy. I see that
and go ugh, Prince would never are their instances that
you've seen in the marketplace where you were like, that
was a really good use of the song there it
(06:06):
made all a sense in your mind, or on the
other side you were like, why would you ever do that?
I opened the floor to you the market.
Speaker 6 (06:13):
I'm trying to think of one brand where I can
be like, oh, this song with this brand, But nothing's
coming up to me because I feel like the song
on its own stands very strong, but then connected with
the brand, it's almost like I just don't see it.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Oof.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, that's exactly every marker. Listen to this podcast.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Music Budget, Sorry, the music budget. Yeah, it's all good savings. Yeah?
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Is that is that register for you too?
Speaker 7 (06:43):
Completely? I was in the same boat. I think for me,
the way I think of it is ads. I almost
feel like it's purely transactional, like you were saying, but
more so for the benefit of the company that's licensing
the song to me.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
I always think.
Speaker 7 (06:55):
That companies are just trying to tap into this catchy
new song that's TikTok viral, and they're using it to
make their ad resonate more with people that are watching it.
So I never really think of it as an artist
company partnership. I think of it more so as just damn,
the company is kind of just using this song for
its own benefit to try to make it go viral,
because it's a viral trending song, but it's nothing really
(07:16):
benefiting for the artist except maybe money, and even then
it's so insignificant, Like I don't even remember or think
about the partnership or the licensing that much because there's
just so much I'm so like, you know, numb to it,
and I already listened to the song on its own,
so I don't really think about it.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
So maybe we'd say there that the song already has
some established memory structures that just because the brand is
next to it, they don't always transfer over. That you
hear the song and like you feel a certain way,
and the hope, the prayer in shallah that those feelings,
that nostalgia that is kindled is then moved over to
(07:53):
the brand, but that's just not happening. You go, oh, yeah,
I know that song, but I'm not put it too
or two together with regards to my were that fair
to say?
Speaker 7 (08:01):
That's exactly how I feel yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
I mean now that you're bringing back nostalgia. I just
thought of the Airbnb spot in the Super Bowl. So
they did this spot with a couple of cartoon characters
where they just put them in like the middle of
the woods, and this song was I Think We're Alone Now.
So that's a very nostalgic song, and it was obviously
also around the time the Stranger things were still trending,
so I feel like they kind of tried to hop
(08:24):
onto that plane. But at the same time, the ad
was kind of creepy itself once he had al stood
because it was like two people in the middle of
the woods saying I think We're alone now, and then
it just I don't think it landed just quite right.
But I remember because the song was catchy. But at
the same time, I can listen to the song and
not think of Airbnb. So that's the kind of two
(08:44):
dots that sometimes will connect and sometimes won't. But I
think it also depends on the occasion and the opportunity
that the brand is trying to take.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
At least they got your attention, so that is true.
We'll give Airbnb a point there for like you remembered it.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, I mean, what's the interesting part about that though,
back to the most point about storytelling, is that while
that song was perfect context for the story that Airbnb
was trying to tell, it didn't have the emotional connection yet.
What was the song in Stranger Things in the season before.
Speaker 7 (09:14):
Last Running Up That Hill by Kate Bush.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Running Up the Hill Exactly?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
That song is a part of Stranger Things, and it
shoots at the top of all the billboard charts, et cetera.
So there there is a bit of there's a bit
of discernment that we have and that music makes us
feel a certain thing. But when it's in the context
of a story that I guess we're bought into, we
(09:38):
go bet cool. But then when it's one that we're
being sold or told I missed, that does a Freudian
slip that we're being told slash sold that we're like, oh,
I don't know, like wet we sort of make the
separate street church and state it's a weird thing.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
I don't have any evidence to support that, but that's
just kind of what came to Miamu Katie when you
mentioned that the Stranger Things part.
Speaker 7 (09:59):
I feel like the discovery of a song is like
a huge part of the song, like how I think
of the song, it's like how I found it and
where it's coming from. And if I watched like Stranger Things,
I'm upset with Stranger Things, and like I watched it
for my own enjoyment, for my own entertainments because it's
something I love so much. And if I discover music
and it's in that way, it's like on my own time,
(10:20):
it's something that I really enjoy the show and I
find a good song from it, I'm like, that's awesome.
I'm gonna love this song. But if the discovery is
from this thirty second ad and I hate when ads
show up when I'm watching Hulu or something, it's like
I already don't like seeing ads, and that's my connotation
with it, and it's for a story that's unrelated to
the song, or its for a product that I'm not
(10:42):
interested in, that's my discovery kind of connotation with it.
Or if I didn't discover it that way, that's kind
of like I don't really think about it then because
I'm so attached to my initial discovery memory of that song.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
That is actually really well said. Yes, this idea of
like Discovery, there was an end.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
There's a campaign that translates did I wasn't the agency,
so I can't take credit for it. But Translation did
this campaign with Double mint Gum and Steve Stout, who
runs Translation. He went to Chris Brown at the time
and had them write a song for Chris Brown that
that song called Forever. I mean with W A pleasure
(11:19):
A fun song, right, that's the lyric from the Double
Mint Gum ad And he wrote a song called Forever,
and that lyric is in the hook, right, it's like
in the refrain. So the way it was brilliant, the
way this was done. They made the song, which ended
up becoming a hit, But then the commercial was an
(11:39):
extension of the song. So when the four minute song
was over, the commercial would play and it sounded like
the song was keep was still going, and he'd be like,
W your pleasure, W fun. It's the right one with
Double min Gum. So to your point, Julie, like the
discovery was in the context of how you actually discovered
music as opposed to it being interruptive. Disruptive. It's a
(12:02):
part of the same story, right, I'll give it to
you there. But like that connection really, it really got
me firing.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Would we be talking about Cat's Eye if Gap hadn't
put them in that ad and given it so much
more spins or airtime or right.
Speaker 6 (12:17):
Julia could not have said it any better. That is
exactly what I was trying to say, is that I
think we discover music and artists on our own, but
then brands. I feel like whenever music is used, it
always adds to the brand with the music that they're using.
But it's that initial discovery that we find that's that
actually stays with us.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
So the music works in context, but it's also playing
against the context in which we are engaging in the story. Right,
So that's on the far end of transaction that spectrum.
Let's go one step closer towards relational and talk about
sponsorship next. Instead of music playing behind my thing, I
(12:57):
instead am your thing behind the music, I'm behind the artists, right,
So it's like my logo on the step and repeat,
I'm wrapping jumbo trons doing the things. So the brand
is going along with the artists. You know, we think
about the Taylor Swift Airs tour in Capital One like
they were the premier sponsor. So that said, does sponsorship
(13:21):
logos being visible, does that have a stronger hook than
music that plays in the background.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
The thing with concerts and sponsorshefs, in my opinion, is
that they are tapping into the fandom by giving them exclusivity,
which I think works because then more people are like, oh,
then I want an amex so I can get in faster,
so I can get to my artists, so I can
get closer to the people that they're trying to sponsor.
(13:49):
So some will make sense. And I think that's why
so many banks will sponsor artists because they're like, oh,
this is a way to get people to use my
product just because it's exclusive to them. And there's others
that maybe don't make sense. And then you just see
a logo and you're like, why is this even there?
You don't even pay attention to it, because all you
want to do is pay attention to your artist. Like
(14:10):
when I go to to a concert, if I have
an amex, cool, I got the tickets before you. But
if I'm at the concert and I'm seeing like American
Express and like, yeah, I know the brand, it's fine,
Like I won't pay attention to it.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
I think you know what you're hitting on this so
smart is like if the brand can add some value
for the customer, you know, like we've done things with
like T Mobile square at an iHeart concert, if you
have a T Mobile phone, vip entrance, if you have
other people's phones, get in line, you know, and all
of a sudden, you go, wow, that's super cool. And
(14:44):
yes there's signage and yeah there's reinforcement and activations and stuff,
but all of a sudden, as a customer of theirs,
you get something and the artist gets the tour funded.
But I totally agree with you, Katie. I think when
if you're going to show up, give the fans something.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Back, that's a really good delineation. It's that like the
when we taught about the licensing of songs. That's for
the benefit of the brand only, right. I mean, the
artist gets paid, but it's really just the brand trying
to borrow that equity and hope that it infuses value
into the brand. In your mind, But to your point, Katie,
(15:20):
when brands are leveraging their access as utility, their access
to these music experiences as utility for their consumers, their
card holders, their describers, et cetera, people go wow, there's
a benefit to being a consumer beyond the transactional relationship
that I have with the brand. I give you money
(15:41):
to get your services, like this is the additional thing
I get.
Speaker 7 (15:44):
Wow, one hundred percent. And I feel like when you
first asked this question, I immediately thought of Like recently,
I also tried to fight for my life for Olivia
or Jigo tickets and I lost and I didn't get tickets.
But for that one, you need an American Express card
to get the pre sale. What's more than that, she
did like an exclusive concert, like a very small intimate
concert in New York, just for AMEX cardholders. And that's
(16:07):
so cool to me because I don't know, maybe other
artists do that, maybe other artists I just don't listen to,
But I thought that was sick. You could pay nothing
and just be an MS card holder and go to
this tiny concert with olivera Drigo. That sounds like so awesome,
And that made AMX stick out to me. The pre
sale stuff like a little bit, but having it be
like the American Express Intimate Olivia Dria concert that really stuck.
(16:29):
And then I think also like the most prime example
of like partnerships or like the sponsorship that really works
is like the Pepsi super Bowl, like the having it
be so integrated together with the name. It's not just
the super Bowl show, it's the Pepsi or Apple super
Bowl halftime show. It's so ingrained in how you think
of what it is that you can't separate the brand
(16:51):
and the actual experience itself. Whereas aristor I didn't even
think about it.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Yeah and amazing, you actually caught the move from the
Pepsi Have to Time show to the Apple Music halftime show.
Well done, you are a Sammy student of marketing. One
pro tip I'll give you shameless plug pro tip, iHeartRadio music.
Jingle Ball Tour is the first arena show for most
of those artists you named, really w Yeah, it's you
(17:18):
know a Taylor Swift, Lizzodu, a Lipa Ed Shearon, Camila Kabeo,
on and on and on and on, Olivia Rodrigo, a
lot of them if it's not their first, as one
of their very first arena shows. So if you want
to get the next check out jingle Ball this holiday,
I want to know who the next in that genre
pop star is waiting to happen.
Speaker 8 (17:37):
Are always on that stage.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Okay, so we were like moving down the spectrum of
transactional to relational, right, so we from we started with licensing,
which is totally transactional, to sponsorship, which is a little
bit more relational. Right now, let's talk about endorsement, and
we're talking like artists hold the product like they are
front and center and they're bringing the brand.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
On as a plus one.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Is there any examples that come of mind for you
all that feel like, oh, yeah, that was super cool
or no, that was super looky.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
I think when you said this, the first thing that
came to mind for me, even like before this podcast,
I was just thinking about Tyler the Creator and Converse
because in my head, it just makes so much sense.
Tyler the Creator, in my opinion, is such a unique artist,
just like he will customize everything his shows, his audience,
his clothes, everything will be tailored to him. And the
(18:46):
fact that Converse is always tailored to you, like and
once Tyler the Creator joined that, he gave the fandom
an opportunity to express themselves through a brand that he
was already using. So I think that aligned perfectly.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
How about you, Juliet, but gone, did you is there
anything that that that rings out to you or maybe
even repels you.
Speaker 7 (19:04):
I think of something that repels me a little bit.
I don't love when celebrities do like food partnerships, just
because I feel like that's something to me unless you're like,
unless you're very passionate about like a specific diet or
something like I don't know, I guess the food that
you were like everybody already knows you as a celebrity,
as an artist, as a person, and it's like you
really care strongly about this. To me, it just feels
(19:27):
so transactional. I'm like, there's no way this person that
makes bajillion dollars is like eating this granola bar like
on the regular. To me, I'm just like it's so unbelievable,
and I think it's just such a money grab.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
So Ed Wyden, we did that work with McDonald's for
Travis Scott. And now remember the pitch processes, as it
was told in lore that McDonald's was like, should we
use jay Z instead of Travis Scott because everyone knows
jay Z. He's a household name, And it was like,
no one's ever gonna believe that jay Z eat McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Come on, but Travis Scott.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
We had the receipts of Travis Scott, you know, being
a fan, right, So to your point, you know, there
has to be some real, real congruence, can you tell?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Because what I love is a few years old now.
I think heinz Ketchup and Ed Sheeran. You might have
seen that ad and Ed's going to fancy restaurants and
trying to get them to serve heinz Ketchup.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
But he's obsessed. He has a heinz Ketchup tattoo that
he had the tattoo.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Yeah, and then he actually pitched the company and then
the company made the ad. But I don't know if
you saw that ad, if you know the difference between
that and the granola bar example, I don't know.
Speaker 7 (20:34):
Oh yeah, actually yeah, I didn't see it, but I
think I would. That would make a lot of sense
to me if I and He's had a bunch of tattoos, it.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Wouldn't shock me.
Speaker 7 (20:42):
And he's such a full like niche person that he
would do something like that where it was like, it's
kind of makes sense. But no, I didn't see the
add but I can believe it.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, But you know what was killer though?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
To that point we talk about music and an endorsement,
when heinz Ketchup did the DJ muster mustard.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yes, yeah, that's brilliant.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
That was bow brilliant, brilliant.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
So that puts us at like the very polar opposite
of transactional to relational, and that would be partnerships, right
like the McDonald's Travis Scott, that was a partnership that
wasn't a hold to McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
He was like he had some skin in the game.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
It's such a hard thing to get our arms around
because of all the complexity you all have identified.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
It's a level of intimacy you gotta have.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
You got to know the nuances, you got to know
the background, You got to provide utility and also provide
all these other things. Right, So, like do you all
feel that do you feel like this is the hardest
thing to capture? And if so, are there any examples
where you like that is that's the gold star, that's
the gold standard.
Speaker 7 (21:47):
I actually do have an example for my Marketing three
hundred final presentation. We were doing Mac Cosmetics and it
was Lady Gaga in the in Mac Cosmetics for the
Viva Gland lipsticks. This is such a great use of
bridging together to disparate people, companies, brands' names in creating
something that provides so much value not just for customers
(22:08):
but for society. So basically, they partnered to create these
five special exclusive lipstick shades with Lady Gaga, who is
such a champion of LGBTQ plus rights and being so
true to yourself and being super self expressive, and these
lipsticks that were called Viva Glenn. Every purchase of lipstick
would go towards like a foundation to help like LGBTQ
(22:31):
plus youth, and those lipstick colors were also just fabulous
shades that everyone was obsessed with the colors, and also
everybody knew about what the lipsticks stood for because of
the name and how it was related to Lady Gaga
and those colors. I think they some of them still
exist now. But it's that partnership and the success of
not just the product the campaign of like Lady Gaga's visibility,
(22:53):
but the causes visibility and mac being a company that's
centered around makeup for everybody, all ages, races, all different genders.
That just made perfect sense to me. But that partnership
I remember like hearing about it when I was first
discovering makeup, when I was like ten or eleven, and
until now, I'm like, that campaign is stuck with me,
and I would love to see a campaign that does
(23:14):
that much for like literally anything.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I mean, that's firing me up. Amazing, Katie. How about you,
We'll say you anything come to mind?
Speaker 5 (23:22):
Yeah, So like when you said this, I feel like
all I could think about was also the Duncan and
Sabrina collab, because obviously espresso was booming, and it was
like the first thing, what can we do here? Duncan,
Sabrina Espresso boom. Obviously that's that's one that really like
stood out to me. But I don't think it was
as successful because it's not like I don't put Sabrina
(23:44):
and Duncan together. And then when I was thinking about that,
then I started thinking about Airwon and how they align
very well with whoever they they're sponsoring next. So obviously
we know airone makes smoothies based on the artists, and
it's a really health focused show, and they had Hailey
Bieber and they've had Sabrina before, and they tried to
align with what these people consume to make it seem believable.
(24:07):
To Julia's point, it needs to align with who they are.
It needs to be something that could actually be credible,
rather than I don't know, Hailey be very sponsoring Burger King.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
If Starbucks had done espresso with Sabrina Carpenter, would you
have bought that? Would you have bought into that?
Speaker 5 (24:23):
That's an interesting question. I probably would have gone tried it,
especially being an international student in the living outside of
the US. Starbucks is not a big thing outside of
the US, so it really wouldn't be like as exciting
as any other brand that could maybe get that reach
a little bit more.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
So interesting that, right, you know, you're hitting on something
that it's so important, right, and it's so foundational to marketing,
which is first, who's the target audience. I'm a New
England girl, so Duncan is religion here, It's all I
just I actually just searched to see if Sabrina was
from New England because if she was, then it would
make way more sense.
Speaker 8 (25:01):
Right.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Is the average Sabrina Carpenter fan is probably young, teenage,
probably skews female, I don't know, probably urban, suburban, rural,
probably crosses all those lines. But are they more likely
to be a Starbucks drinker or a Duncan drinker or neither.
So it's kind of like the endgame, right, maybe you
(25:22):
know they're young, they're teens. Maybe Duncan's more accessible or
more affordable or I don't know, but you know, is
the target audience the key there versus the perception.
Speaker 6 (25:32):
Of I did think about it that way?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you were all around it. Yeah I'm basic. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (25:38):
I feel like that makes a lot of sense because
if you listen to Sabrina's music, like it does attract
more younger girls, and then if anything, I think it
creates like that connect between the younger generation and then
Duncan as well, being someone that like they're a brand
that I guess works with younger girls.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
What I'm hearing here is that like when it comes
to partnerships, there has to be a greater brand congruence
between the artists and the actual brand. Right on the
transactional side. It's like, as long as there's context, then
sure will connect with me, because like in my mind,
I would think, oh, like Sabrina Carpenter fun a little
(26:19):
tongue in cheek right, but has a but still like
very polished kind of sexy upscaled right and to me
and go, oh, I get Starbucks there. That makes sense
to me considering the meanings of Starbucks holds in my mind. However,
to Gale's point, meaning is not fixed. So for some consumers,
so from people, they're like, I don't see Starbucks like
(26:39):
that at all, right, where others will see dunkin Donuts
be like dunkin Donuts is God. I mean, this is
the calculus that marketers have to do. Marketers got it tough,
I'm telling you, But this is the kind of calculus
that marketers have to do because this is all about
the way we collectively make meaning. How do we culturally
make sense of the world.
Speaker 5 (26:57):
Yeah, that's what I was going to bring up in
my eyes, and gets a fun brand for fun people.
It's more colorful, it's more out there, whereas Starbucks does
make itself look more sophisticated and more higher end. It
feels more unique to go with Duncan in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I mean, we could talk all day long here because
there's so much goodness here, but all things must come
to an end, as they say, So this is the
part of the show that we call Care Don't Care
so I'm gonna ask you some quick, rapid things and
you tell me keep it we don't care, or more, yes,
thank you more, please, we do care? All right, So
(27:34):
let's start softball here. Should brands spend small fortunes on
music licensing because it makes such an emotional difference?
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Care or don't care? Don't care, don't apologize. It's great.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I mean if nothing else like to me, that leaves
the door open for like these smaller artists that are
trying to get their stuff hurt. Maybe you should just
spend time on those guys, right, as opposed to.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Yeah, big checks, Yeah, save some money, support new artists.
Speaker 5 (28:06):
Yeah, one hundred percent. Make it a jingle to your
own brand. So if you stand with a new artist,
you can also make people remember the new artist and
your brand.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Yeah it's a Jingles are powerful. I'm audio girl, But
one of our sponsors here Market says, has an iconic
jingle like a good neighbor, state farm is there.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
They've been using it forever and when you hear it,
you know who it is.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
So I love jingles because they do get stuck in
your head the same way pop music does.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
That's right, Barry Manilow actually wrote that jingle for State Farm.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
It's amazing. That's why it's probably lasted so long. Incredible songwriter,
so good, So let's increase the intensity on this one,
all right. For those don't know Shabouzi, big country artists,
he writes a song for Dominoes. A jingle for Dominoes.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Right, this is Domino's first brand refreshed in thirteen years,
which was totally successful for these guys. Look new tagline,
new song, care don't care, I would take care.
Speaker 5 (29:01):
So it has to be the right person creating the
right jingle for the right brand, and it also needs
to be catchy enough.
Speaker 7 (29:06):
I don't care for that only because I think still
to me, I feel like it's so important for a
brand to have its own identity, and something like a
jingle or a song is like so core to the brand.
I think any person could probably write like a kick
ass jingle for Dominoes and it doesn't have to be
this like super expensive artist and a country artist too,
(29:27):
and Dominoes is from an harbor, and I'm like, ah,
I don't really know if I buy that, So I
just don't think it's worth it, and it doesn't really
help the artist as like much in it for Dominoes,
I'm like, it's just kind of random, like kind of
almost it makes me love on it, like like it
less to be honest.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
All right.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
We talked a lot about sponsorship, the logos that are
in the background that are wrapping jumbo trons and the
like care or don't care.
Speaker 5 (29:54):
Don't care, don't care.
Speaker 6 (29:57):
I think it's just back to that point of like
we've become so immune to it because there's just so
much going around that it's like unless there's a genuine
meaning or if they're giving us like if there's like
some utility behind it, I don't think there's any care
for it.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Otherwise it's wallpaper.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Yeah you said it. I mean you know, the market,
says Marcus. And I think this is the whole point
of the show, which is we marketers know these stories,
we get excited about them. We know they wrote this
and they did that because we're marketing nerds.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
The market apparently cares a whole lot.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Less cool story, bro, basically, Sagon, Julia, Katie, thank you
all so very much. You've made me proud, as I
know you would, as you always do. But we are
so thankful for you not only imparting your brilliance but
your candor, because the idea here is that the better
(30:57):
we understand the world that you navigate, the more likely
that marketers are able to engage it in a meaningful way.
So thank you so very much for being a part
of market Says, and for everyone listening, thank you so
much for joining us again, thank you.
Speaker 7 (31:09):
For having us.
Speaker 5 (31:10):
This was amazing.
Speaker 7 (31:10):
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
You know, for me, this was so eye opening because
my experiences are just so different than theirs, and I
don't chalk it up to generationalism so much, but maybe
it's because of the way that we consume music, and
maybe it's the way we have relationships with artists. They're
just different, right, because there's so much music, there's so
(31:33):
much supply that maybe our interactions with music are sort
of transactional by nature these days, and the ones that
feel more sacred, we're far more protective of them.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Yeah, no, I think you're onto something, Marcus.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
I think I think there's also like the this generation
is so and they said it inundated with marketing. It's
not just a music problem, right, It's a I go
to a concert and there's eight million logos, so I
don't see any and you know, every time I open
my feed, there's a gazillion things happening, so I just
(32:07):
block them unless they really are authentic or have a
real reason to be in that part, that story, the
hopeful part. It's not all bad news marketers, right. I
think there's definitely some hope if you have a story
to tell. Working with an artist to figure out how
to tell it felt like that was where they seem
(32:28):
to have some resonance and some openness.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, you're right, Like there's an oversupply of music, and
there's an oversupply of brands, but you know, the idea
of like less marketing, less music creates more connection, I
think is a really powerful one. So for me, one
of my favorite campaigns of all time, like top tend
favorite campaigns of all time is Sprite Obey your thirsty.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Oh yeah, that was genius yep, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Like their ability to find story the Sprite wants to
tell about you know, trust your instincts and finding the
right genre. That is a personification of that hip hop
that was being overlooked and downplayed but was still you know,
talking with his chest ye like that connection deck campaign
went on for a decade and it's and I love Sprite.
(33:19):
It's one of my favorite sodas to this day because
of that advertising. Right, yeah, exactly, But it was far
less marketing in the world, Dan, just like there was
far less music in the world. I welcome to think
about like frameworks for this. There's a strategist. He was
a chief officer at Translation. He was my boss, guy
named John Green, Like this is the world that he orbits.
(33:41):
He's just so phenomenal at this thing, like creating the
frameworks how brand and music are related so that we
make better decisions. That's what I think we need to
get to.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
And it's so true because the ones we talked about where,
you know, the where the market said, oh I get
that right instantly, was probably the one that had a
the right brief, right, the right frame around it. You know,
Tyler the creator Converse Conversus a canvas for creativity. That
is their brand, that is their product. Here's a guy
who's all about filling in those canvases perfect, right, And
(34:15):
I'm sure the way they executed that, you know, I
guess you were part of it. Congrats win there, you know,
but you know, you go, oh, I get the narrative.
It makes sense. And probably the collaboration and the stuff
that came out of it worked because they were on
the same brief.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Whereas it's you know.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
Even if it's it's espresso and I make coffee, that
may not be enough, right, The brief has to have
a more of a narrative or a story.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
It's not enough.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
I mean that that guild that that's a mic drop.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
It's not enough.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Like your category and your product connection to the artist
is not enough. It needs more story more meaning that is,
the brand has to be transcending the category to get
to some story that is ideological, that is emotional, that
is associative that people go, oh yeah, I know that.
(35:08):
I see the connection there. And when that happens, the
magic happens. And it seems obvious. But the calculus that
goes into it requires so much more than oh, I
like coffee and there's this r espresso put.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Those two hands together.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I mean, that's those things that sort of fall in
the wayside or fall fall by the wayside that ends
up becoming the wallpaper that apparently the market can tell.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Yes, the market does not love wallpaper. That's what I learned.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Or background music apparently that was fantastic. What a great
what a great episode, What a great episode. I love
this because I'm learning too, which is great. Like we're
going to love it. We are going to school, just
like our listeners. And you know, that's the value, that's
the utility that we bring, right So for everyone listening,
we're grateful to have you.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Yes, Market says, listen in there you go. Market says
it is the bubblo media. iHeart podcast production.
Gel.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Before I got into the world of marketing. I used
to be a songwriter. I don't know if you knew that,
but I used to write songs for a living. I
wasn't terribly successful, but it's what I did.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I did not know that. That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yeah, I went to be babyfaced really badly. It didn't
work out for me. That's what I wanted in my life.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
There is still time, Marcus, there is still time.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm holding out hope. But you're the interesting thing to
be a marketer now. I'd used to be at iTunes
doing partner marketing there at Apple before I was running
digital strategy for Beyonce and then going into advertising full stop.
You know, I see so much of marketing and advertising
and music like all sort of jumble together, and you know,
(00:53):
there's some things I just like, absolutely love, and there's
some things that I just absolutely hate, and I go, man,
I was a really good use of that song or
that artist in that context for that brand, and then
other things that go, why in the world would you
ever do this? It just seems so off and they
both seem so obvious. Yet marketers constantly either fumble or
(01:15):
find the right magic.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Yeah, you know obviously, like strategically, it makes a ton
of sense, right. Brands want to be part of the conversation,
they want to be part of culture. So music is
at the heart of culture and conversation. Let's work with artists.
Let's put great music in our ads. The challenge, I
think becomes, it's like all marketing, why why do you
want to be part of this event? Why do you
(01:38):
want to connect through music? And then that might lead
to a bunch of questions. I'd love the market to
tell us more about here. I've got these amazing, real
consumers out in the real world. Is it about I
want to connect with the energy of music, or I
want to connect with the storytelling, or I want to
connect with that artist's journey.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
There's a million ways to do it. I'd love to
hear from the market. What does the market say? What
do you think works or doesn't work?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
So we've got Fagun, we got Julia, we got Katie,
all brilliant, brilliant, brilliant minds from the University of Michigan,
and they are representing the market today. So I ask
you to start just kind of frame us here does
music marketing do they belong together. Are these two worlds
that should be together?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Are you like? Are you with Gail?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
If there's an emotional thing here that's available for brands,
should they navigate it well? Or is this church and
state that should be separated?
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Katie? What say you?
Speaker 5 (02:44):
I personally believe that marketing and music would go tied
together like they they're attached to the hip. They are
something that people are so emotionally connected to, and that's
what marketing is all about, emotionally connecting with people because
that's our job. It's marketers right to get people to move.
Artists still have such a great hold on people because
(03:05):
people connect with them emotionally through their music. So if
marketers can find a way to leverage that emotional connection,
then they can definitely win in the market. In my opinion, yeah,
one hundred percent.
Speaker 6 (03:17):
I think one thing that's in common between marketing and
artists is that both of them are trying to sell
a story, whether it's a brand trying to sell their
own story artists trying to express their life through music.
Because if the brand story aligns with the artist's story,
then that's like a perfect match. And then presenting that
(03:38):
to an audience who will identify and then also believe
in what they're saying. It almost creates magic.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
So storytelling that is congruent. Then where these things go wrong?
Julie like, if this is like just there's no reason
in the world where brands and music shouldn't be wed right,
Why don't we have so many missteps? This is such
an obvious thing, I feel like.
Speaker 7 (04:02):
For me, I think sometimes because music it's such a
universal language, you don't have to speak the language, you
don't have to understand the lyrics to really emotionally connect
with them. And I think, honestly, I feel like I
haven't seen so many terrible music business partnerships before, none
that actually immediately stick out to me. But I think
(04:23):
when it starts bridging on it's very much just for
the financial purposes profiting. When it doesn't feel authentic, or
it's purely just to promote something and it's not about
promoting connection, I think that's when I kind of lose
interest and I kind of just look at it as, Oh,
it's another ad, it's other partnership. It's not worth my
time if it doesn't seek to accomplishly deep down underlying
(04:43):
intention of trying to really connect with audiences.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So there are many modalities here, right, Gail. If I
were thinking about this, if I was putting on my strategy, hat,
I go Oh. There's partnerships, as Julia mentioned, there's licensing
where I'm just going to leverage the music that I
pay for to be a part of my expression, the
storytelling as a brand. There's endorsements where I'm asking the
artists to tell their story and use my brand as
(05:08):
a part of the fodder. Maybe it's a chapter in
their story, or maybe there's a sponsorship. I guys want
my logo next to you.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Like.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Those are like four sort of big buckets or big
doorways whereby brands.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
And music can come together.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So let's take those four buckets and cast them across
the spectrum. One being transactional. I'd probably say licensing is
the most transactional, where I just pay you, you let
me use your ip. We don't even shake hands. I
don't see your face at all, we don't know each other.
For example, Prince notoriously would not let brands use his
(05:44):
music in an advertising. He passes and the estate goes
have at it. And now there is a commercial about
bowling and they're playing let's go crazy. I see that
and go ugh, Prince would never are their instances that
you've seen in the marketplace where you were like, that
was a really good use of the song there it
(06:06):
made all a sense in your mind, or on the
other side you were like, why would you ever do that?
I opened the floor to you the market.
Speaker 6 (06:13):
I'm trying to think of one brand where I can
be like, oh, this song with this brand, But nothing's
coming up to me because I feel like the song
on its own stands very strong, but then connected with
the brand, it's almost like I just don't see it.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Oof.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, that's exactly every marker. Listen to this podcast.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Music Budget, Sorry, the music budget. Yeah, it's all good savings. Yeah?
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Is that is that register for you too?
Speaker 7 (06:43):
Completely? I was in the same boat. I think for me,
the way I think of it is ads. I almost
feel like it's purely transactional, like you were saying, but
more so for the benefit of the company that's licensing
the song to me.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
I always think.
Speaker 7 (06:55):
That companies are just trying to tap into this catchy
new song that's TikTok viral, and they're using it to
make their ad resonate more with people that are watching it.
So I never really think of it as an artist
company partnership. I think of it more so as just damn,
the company is kind of just using this song for
its own benefit to try to make it go viral,
because it's a viral trending song, but it's nothing really
(07:16):
benefiting for the artist except maybe money, and even then
it's so insignificant, Like I don't even remember or think
about the partnership or the licensing that much because there's
just so much I'm so like, you know, numb to it,
and I already listened to the song on its own,
so I don't really think about it.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
So maybe we'd say there that the song already has
some established memory structures that just because the brand is
next to it, they don't always transfer over. That you
hear the song and like you feel a certain way,
and the hope, the prayer in shallah that those feelings,
that nostalgia that is kindled is then moved over to
(07:53):
the brand, but that's just not happening. You go, oh, yeah,
I know that song, but I'm not put it too
or two together with regards to my were that fair
to say?
Speaker 7 (08:01):
That's exactly how I feel yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
I mean now that you're bringing back nostalgia. I just
thought of the Airbnb spot in the Super Bowl. So
they did this spot with a couple of cartoon characters
where they just put them in like the middle of
the woods, and this song was I Think We're Alone Now.
So that's a very nostalgic song, and it was obviously
also around the time the Stranger things were still trending,
so I feel like they kind of tried to hop
(08:24):
onto that plane. But at the same time, the ad
was kind of creepy itself once he had al stood
because it was like two people in the middle of
the woods saying I think We're alone now, and then
it just I don't think it landed just quite right.
But I remember because the song was catchy. But at
the same time, I can listen to the song and
not think of Airbnb. So that's the kind of two
(08:44):
dots that sometimes will connect and sometimes won't. But I
think it also depends on the occasion and the opportunity
that the brand is trying to take.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
At least they got your attention, so that is true.
We'll give Airbnb a point there for like you remembered it.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, I mean, what's the interesting part about that though,
back to the most point about storytelling, is that while
that song was perfect context for the story that Airbnb
was trying to tell, it didn't have the emotional connection yet.
What was the song in Stranger Things in the season before.
Speaker 7 (09:14):
Last Running Up That Hill by Kate Bush.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Running Up the Hill Exactly?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
That song is a part of Stranger Things, and it
shoots at the top of all the billboard charts, et cetera.
So there there is a bit of there's a bit
of discernment that we have and that music makes us
feel a certain thing. But when it's in the context
of a story that I guess we're bought into, we
(09:38):
go bet cool. But then when it's one that we're
being sold or told I missed, that does a Freudian
slip that we're being told slash sold that we're like, oh,
I don't know, like wet we sort of make the
separate street church and state it's a weird thing.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
I don't have any evidence to support that, but that's
just kind of what came to Miamu Katie when you
mentioned that the Stranger Things part.
Speaker 7 (09:59):
I feel like the discovery of a song is like
a huge part of the song, like how I think
of the song, it's like how I found it and
where it's coming from. And if I watched like Stranger Things,
I'm upset with Stranger Things, and like I watched it
for my own enjoyment, for my own entertainments because it's
something I love so much. And if I discover music
and it's in that way, it's like on my own time,
(10:20):
it's something that I really enjoy the show and I
find a good song from it, I'm like, that's awesome.
I'm gonna love this song. But if the discovery is
from this thirty second ad and I hate when ads
show up when I'm watching Hulu or something, it's like
I already don't like seeing ads, and that's my connotation
with it, and it's for a story that's unrelated to
the song, or its for a product that I'm not
(10:42):
interested in, that's my discovery kind of connotation with it.
Or if I didn't discover it that way, that's kind
of like I don't really think about it then because
I'm so attached to my initial discovery memory of that song.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
That is actually really well said. Yes, this idea of
like Discovery, there was an end.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
There's a campaign that translates did I wasn't the agency,
so I can't take credit for it. But Translation did
this campaign with Double mint Gum and Steve Stout, who
runs Translation. He went to Chris Brown at the time
and had them write a song for Chris Brown that
that song called Forever. I mean with W A pleasure
(11:19):
A fun song, right, that's the lyric from the Double
Mint Gum ad And he wrote a song called Forever,
and that lyric is in the hook, right, it's like
in the refrain. So the way it was brilliant, the
way this was done. They made the song, which ended
up becoming a hit, But then the commercial was an
(11:39):
extension of the song. So when the four minute song
was over, the commercial would play and it sounded like
the song was keep was still going, and he'd be like,
W your pleasure, W fun. It's the right one with
Double min Gum. So to your point, Julie, like the
discovery was in the context of how you actually discovered
music as opposed to it being interruptive. Disruptive. It's a
(12:02):
part of the same story, right, I'll give it to
you there. But like that connection really, it really got
me firing.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Would we be talking about Cat's Eye if Gap hadn't
put them in that ad and given it so much
more spins or airtime or right.
Speaker 6 (12:17):
Julia could not have said it any better. That is
exactly what I was trying to say, is that I
think we discover music and artists on our own, but
then brands. I feel like whenever music is used, it
always adds to the brand with the music that they're using.
But it's that initial discovery that we find that's that
actually stays with us.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
So the music works in context, but it's also playing
against the context in which we are engaging in the story. Right,
So that's on the far end of transaction that spectrum.
Let's go one step closer towards relational and talk about
sponsorship next. Instead of music playing behind my thing, I
(12:57):
instead am your thing behind the music, I'm behind the artists, right,
So it's like my logo on the step and repeat,
I'm wrapping jumbo trons doing the things. So the brand
is going along with the artists. You know, we think
about the Taylor Swift Airs tour in Capital One like
they were the premier sponsor. So that said, does sponsorship
(13:21):
logos being visible, does that have a stronger hook than
music that plays in the background.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
The thing with concerts and sponsorshefs, in my opinion, is
that they are tapping into the fandom by giving them exclusivity,
which I think works because then more people are like, oh,
then I want an amex so I can get in faster,
so I can get to my artists, so I can
get closer to the people that they're trying to sponsor.
(13:49):
So some will make sense. And I think that's why
so many banks will sponsor artists because they're like, oh,
this is a way to get people to use my
product just because it's exclusive to them. And there's others
that maybe don't make sense. And then you just see
a logo and you're like, why is this even there?
You don't even pay attention to it, because all you
want to do is pay attention to your artist. Like
(14:10):
when I go to to a concert, if I have
an amex, cool, I got the tickets before you. But
if I'm at the concert and I'm seeing like American
Express and like, yeah, I know the brand, it's fine,
Like I won't pay attention to it.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
I think you know what you're hitting on this so
smart is like if the brand can add some value
for the customer, you know, like we've done things with
like T Mobile square at an iHeart concert, if you
have a T Mobile phone, vip entrance, if you have
other people's phones, get in line, you know, and all
of a sudden, you go, wow, that's super cool. And
(14:44):
yes there's signage and yeah there's reinforcement and activations and stuff,
but all of a sudden, as a customer of theirs,
you get something and the artist gets the tour funded.
But I totally agree with you, Katie. I think when
if you're going to show up, give the fans something.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Back, that's a really good delineation. It's that like the
when we taught about the licensing of songs. That's for
the benefit of the brand only, right. I mean, the
artist gets paid, but it's really just the brand trying
to borrow that equity and hope that it infuses value
into the brand. In your mind, But to your point, Katie,
(15:20):
when brands are leveraging their access as utility, their access
to these music experiences as utility for their consumers, their
card holders, their describers, et cetera, people go wow, there's
a benefit to being a consumer beyond the transactional relationship
that I have with the brand. I give you money
(15:41):
to get your services, like this is the additional thing
I get.
Speaker 7 (15:44):
Wow, one hundred percent. And I feel like when you
first asked this question, I immediately thought of Like recently,
I also tried to fight for my life for Olivia
or Jigo tickets and I lost and I didn't get tickets.
But for that one, you need an American Express card
to get the pre sale. What's more than that, she
did like an exclusive concert, like a very small intimate
concert in New York, just for AMEX cardholders. And that's
(16:07):
so cool to me because I don't know, maybe other
artists do that, maybe other artists I just don't listen to,
But I thought that was sick. You could pay nothing
and just be an MS card holder and go to
this tiny concert with olivera Drigo. That sounds like so awesome,
And that made AMX stick out to me. The pre
sale stuff like a little bit, but having it be
like the American Express Intimate Olivia Dria concert that really stuck.
(16:29):
And then I think also like the most prime example
of like partnerships or like the sponsorship that really works
is like the Pepsi super Bowl, like the having it
be so integrated together with the name. It's not just
the super Bowl show, it's the Pepsi or Apple super
Bowl halftime show. It's so ingrained in how you think
of what it is that you can't separate the brand
(16:51):
and the actual experience itself. Whereas aristor I didn't even
think about it.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Yeah and amazing, you actually caught the move from the
Pepsi Have to Time show to the Apple Music halftime show.
Well done, you are a Sammy student of marketing. One
pro tip I'll give you shameless plug pro tip, iHeartRadio music.
Jingle Ball Tour is the first arena show for most
of those artists you named, really w Yeah, it's you
(17:18):
know a Taylor Swift, Lizzodu, a Lipa Ed Shearon, Camila Kabeo,
on and on and on and on, Olivia Rodrigo, a
lot of them if it's not their first, as one
of their very first arena shows. So if you want
to get the next check out jingle Ball this holiday,
I want to know who the next in that genre
pop star is waiting to happen.
Speaker 8 (17:37):
Are always on that stage.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Okay, so we were like moving down the spectrum of
transactional to relational, right, so we from we started with licensing,
which is totally transactional, to sponsorship, which is a little
bit more relational. Right now, let's talk about endorsement, and
we're talking like artists hold the product like they are
front and center and they're bringing the brand.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
On as a plus one.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Is there any examples that come of mind for you
all that feel like, oh, yeah, that was super cool
or no, that was super looky.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
I think when you said this, the first thing that
came to mind for me, even like before this podcast,
I was just thinking about Tyler the Creator and Converse
because in my head, it just makes so much sense.
Tyler the Creator, in my opinion, is such a unique artist,
just like he will customize everything his shows, his audience,
his clothes, everything will be tailored to him. And the
(18:46):
fact that Converse is always tailored to you, like and
once Tyler the Creator joined that, he gave the fandom
an opportunity to express themselves through a brand that he
was already using. So I think that aligned perfectly.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
How about you, Juliet, but gone, did you is there
anything that that that rings out to you or maybe
even repels you.
Speaker 7 (19:04):
I think of something that repels me a little bit.
I don't love when celebrities do like food partnerships, just
because I feel like that's something to me unless you're like,
unless you're very passionate about like a specific diet or
something like I don't know, I guess the food that
you were like everybody already knows you as a celebrity,
as an artist, as a person, and it's like you
really care strongly about this. To me, it just feels
(19:27):
so transactional. I'm like, there's no way this person that
makes bajillion dollars is like eating this granola bar like
on the regular. To me, I'm just like it's so unbelievable,
and I think it's just such a money grab.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
So Ed Wyden, we did that work with McDonald's for
Travis Scott. And now remember the pitch processes, as it
was told in lore that McDonald's was like, should we
use jay Z instead of Travis Scott because everyone knows
jay Z. He's a household name, And it was like,
no one's ever gonna believe that jay Z eat McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Come on, but Travis Scott.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
We had the receipts of Travis Scott, you know, being
a fan, right, So to your point, you know, there
has to be some real, real congruence, can you tell?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Because what I love is a few years old now.
I think heinz Ketchup and Ed Sheeran. You might have
seen that ad and Ed's going to fancy restaurants and
trying to get them to serve heinz Ketchup.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
But he's obsessed. He has a heinz Ketchup tattoo that
he had the tattoo.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Yeah, and then he actually pitched the company and then
the company made the ad. But I don't know if
you saw that ad, if you know the difference between
that and the granola bar example, I don't know.
Speaker 7 (20:34):
Oh yeah, actually yeah, I didn't see it, but I
think I would. That would make a lot of sense
to me if I and He's had a bunch of tattoos, it.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Wouldn't shock me.
Speaker 7 (20:42):
And he's such a full like niche person that he
would do something like that where it was like, it's
kind of makes sense. But no, I didn't see the
add but I can believe it.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, But you know what was killer though?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
To that point we talk about music and an endorsement,
when heinz Ketchup did the DJ muster mustard.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yes, yeah, that's brilliant.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
That was bow brilliant, brilliant.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
So that puts us at like the very polar opposite
of transactional to relational, and that would be partnerships, right
like the McDonald's Travis Scott, that was a partnership that
wasn't a hold to McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
He was like he had some skin in the game.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
It's such a hard thing to get our arms around
because of all the complexity you all have identified.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
It's a level of intimacy you gotta have.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
You got to know the nuances, you got to know
the background, You got to provide utility and also provide
all these other things. Right, So, like do you all
feel that do you feel like this is the hardest
thing to capture? And if so, are there any examples
where you like that is that's the gold star, that's
the gold standard.
Speaker 7 (21:47):
I actually do have an example for my Marketing three
hundred final presentation. We were doing Mac Cosmetics and it
was Lady Gaga in the in Mac Cosmetics for the
Viva Gland lipsticks. This is such a great use of
bridging together to disparate people, companies, brands' names in creating
something that provides so much value not just for customers
(22:08):
but for society. So basically, they partnered to create these
five special exclusive lipstick shades with Lady Gaga, who is
such a champion of LGBTQ plus rights and being so
true to yourself and being super self expressive, and these
lipsticks that were called Viva Glenn. Every purchase of lipstick
would go towards like a foundation to help like LGBTQ
(22:31):
plus youth, and those lipstick colors were also just fabulous
shades that everyone was obsessed with the colors, and also
everybody knew about what the lipsticks stood for because of
the name and how it was related to Lady Gaga
and those colors. I think they some of them still
exist now. But it's that partnership and the success of
not just the product the campaign of like Lady Gaga's visibility,
(22:53):
but the causes visibility and mac being a company that's
centered around makeup for everybody, all ages, races, all different genders.
That just made perfect sense to me. But that partnership
I remember like hearing about it when I was first
discovering makeup, when I was like ten or eleven, and
until now, I'm like, that campaign is stuck with me,
and I would love to see a campaign that does
(23:14):
that much for like literally anything.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I mean, that's firing me up. Amazing, Katie. How about you,
We'll say you anything come to mind?
Speaker 5 (23:22):
Yeah, So like when you said this, I feel like
all I could think about was also the Duncan and
Sabrina collab, because obviously espresso was booming, and it was
like the first thing, what can we do here? Duncan,
Sabrina Espresso boom. Obviously that's that's one that really like
stood out to me. But I don't think it was
as successful because it's not like I don't put Sabrina
(23:44):
and Duncan together. And then when I was thinking about that,
then I started thinking about Airwon and how they align
very well with whoever they they're sponsoring next. So obviously
we know airone makes smoothies based on the artists, and
it's a really health focused show, and they had Hailey
Bieber and they've had Sabrina before, and they tried to
align with what these people consume to make it seem believable.
(24:07):
To Julia's point, it needs to align with who they are.
It needs to be something that could actually be credible,
rather than I don't know, Hailey be very sponsoring Burger King.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
If Starbucks had done espresso with Sabrina Carpenter, would you
have bought that? Would you have bought into that?
Speaker 5 (24:23):
That's an interesting question. I probably would have gone tried it,
especially being an international student in the living outside of
the US. Starbucks is not a big thing outside of
the US, so it really wouldn't be like as exciting
as any other brand that could maybe get that reach
a little bit more.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
So interesting that, right, you know, you're hitting on something
that it's so important, right, and it's so foundational to marketing,
which is first, who's the target audience. I'm a New
England girl, so Duncan is religion here, It's all I
just I actually just searched to see if Sabrina was
from New England because if she was, then it would
make way more sense.
Speaker 8 (25:01):
Right.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Is the average Sabrina Carpenter fan is probably young, teenage,
probably skews female, I don't know, probably urban, suburban, rural,
probably crosses all those lines. But are they more likely
to be a Starbucks drinker or a Duncan drinker or neither.
So it's kind of like the endgame, right, maybe you
(25:22):
know they're young, they're teens. Maybe Duncan's more accessible or
more affordable or I don't know, but you know, is
the target audience the key there versus the perception.
Speaker 6 (25:32):
Of I did think about it that way?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you were all around it. Yeah I'm basic. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (25:38):
I feel like that makes a lot of sense because
if you listen to Sabrina's music, like it does attract
more younger girls, and then if anything, I think it
creates like that connect between the younger generation and then
Duncan as well, being someone that like they're a brand
that I guess works with younger girls.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
What I'm hearing here is that like when it comes
to partnerships, there has to be a greater brand congruence
between the artists and the actual brand. Right on the
transactional side. It's like, as long as there's context, then
sure will connect with me, because like in my mind,
I would think, oh, like Sabrina Carpenter fun a little
(26:19):
tongue in cheek right, but has a but still like
very polished kind of sexy upscaled right and to me
and go, oh, I get Starbucks there. That makes sense
to me considering the meanings of Starbucks holds in my mind. However,
to Gale's point, meaning is not fixed. So for some consumers,
so from people, they're like, I don't see Starbucks like
(26:39):
that at all, right, where others will see dunkin Donuts
be like dunkin Donuts is God. I mean, this is
the calculus that marketers have to do. Marketers got it tough,
I'm telling you, But this is the kind of calculus
that marketers have to do because this is all about
the way we collectively make meaning. How do we culturally
make sense of the world.
Speaker 5 (26:57):
Yeah, that's what I was going to bring up in
my eyes, and gets a fun brand for fun people.
It's more colorful, it's more out there, whereas Starbucks does
make itself look more sophisticated and more higher end. It
feels more unique to go with Duncan in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I mean, we could talk all day long here because
there's so much goodness here, but all things must come
to an end, as they say, So this is the
part of the show that we call Care Don't Care
so I'm gonna ask you some quick, rapid things and
you tell me keep it we don't care, or more, yes,
thank you more, please, we do care? All right, So
(27:34):
let's start softball here. Should brands spend small fortunes on
music licensing because it makes such an emotional difference?
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Care or don't care? Don't care, don't apologize. It's great.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I mean if nothing else like to me, that leaves
the door open for like these smaller artists that are
trying to get their stuff hurt. Maybe you should just
spend time on those guys, right, as opposed to.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Yeah, big checks, Yeah, save some money, support new artists.
Speaker 5 (28:06):
Yeah, one hundred percent. Make it a jingle to your
own brand. So if you stand with a new artist,
you can also make people remember the new artist and
your brand.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Yeah it's a Jingles are powerful. I'm audio girl, But
one of our sponsors here Market says, has an iconic
jingle like a good neighbor, state farm is there.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
They've been using it forever and when you hear it,
you know who it is.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
So I love jingles because they do get stuck in
your head the same way pop music does.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
That's right, Barry Manilow actually wrote that jingle for State Farm.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
It's amazing. That's why it's probably lasted so long. Incredible songwriter,
so good, So let's increase the intensity on this one,
all right. For those don't know Shabouzi, big country artists,
he writes a song for Dominoes. A jingle for Dominoes.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Right, this is Domino's first brand refreshed in thirteen years,
which was totally successful for these guys. Look new tagline,
new song, care don't care, I would take care.
Speaker 5 (29:01):
So it has to be the right person creating the
right jingle for the right brand, and it also needs
to be catchy enough.
Speaker 7 (29:06):
I don't care for that only because I think still
to me, I feel like it's so important for a
brand to have its own identity, and something like a
jingle or a song is like so core to the brand.
I think any person could probably write like a kick
ass jingle for Dominoes and it doesn't have to be
this like super expensive artist and a country artist too,
(29:27):
and Dominoes is from an harbor, and I'm like, ah,
I don't really know if I buy that, So I
just don't think it's worth it, and it doesn't really
help the artist as like much in it for Dominoes,
I'm like, it's just kind of random, like kind of
almost it makes me love on it, like like it
less to be honest.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
All right.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
We talked a lot about sponsorship, the logos that are
in the background that are wrapping jumbo trons and the
like care or don't care.
Speaker 5 (29:54):
Don't care, don't care.
Speaker 6 (29:57):
I think it's just back to that point of like
we've become so immune to it because there's just so
much going around that it's like unless there's a genuine
meaning or if they're giving us like if there's like
some utility behind it, I don't think there's any care
for it.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Otherwise it's wallpaper.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Yeah you said it. I mean you know, the market,
says Marcus. And I think this is the whole point
of the show, which is we marketers know these stories,
we get excited about them. We know they wrote this
and they did that because we're marketing nerds.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
The market apparently cares a whole lot.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Less cool story, bro, basically, Sagon, Julia, Katie, thank you
all so very much. You've made me proud, as I
know you would, as you always do. But we are
so thankful for you not only imparting your brilliance but
your candor, because the idea here is that the better
(30:57):
we understand the world that you navigate, the more likely
that marketers are able to engage it in a meaningful way.
So thank you so very much for being a part
of market Says, and for everyone listening, thank you so
much for joining us again, thank you.
Speaker 7 (31:09):
For having us.
Speaker 5 (31:10):
This was amazing.
Speaker 7 (31:10):
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
You know, for me, this was so eye opening because
my experiences are just so different than theirs, and I
don't chalk it up to generationalism so much, but maybe
it's because of the way that we consume music, and
maybe it's the way we have relationships with artists. They're
just different, right, because there's so much music, there's so
(31:33):
much supply that maybe our interactions with music are sort
of transactional by nature these days, and the ones that
feel more sacred, we're far more protective of them.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Yeah, no, I think you're onto something, Marcus.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
I think I think there's also like the this generation
is so and they said it inundated with marketing. It's
not just a music problem, right, It's a I go
to a concert and there's eight million logos, so I
don't see any and you know, every time I open
my feed, there's a gazillion things happening, so I just
(32:07):
block them unless they really are authentic or have a
real reason to be in that part, that story, the
hopeful part. It's not all bad news marketers, right. I
think there's definitely some hope if you have a story
to tell. Working with an artist to figure out how
to tell it felt like that was where they seem
(32:28):
to have some resonance and some openness.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, you're right, Like there's an oversupply of music, and
there's an oversupply of brands, but you know, the idea
of like less marketing, less music creates more connection, I
think is a really powerful one. So for me, one
of my favorite campaigns of all time, like top tend
favorite campaigns of all time is Sprite Obey your thirsty.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Oh yeah, that was genius yep, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Like their ability to find story the Sprite wants to
tell about you know, trust your instincts and finding the
right genre. That is a personification of that hip hop
that was being overlooked and downplayed but was still you know,
talking with his chest ye like that connection deck campaign
went on for a decade and it's and I love Sprite.
(33:19):
It's one of my favorite sodas to this day because
of that advertising. Right, yeah, exactly, But it was far
less marketing in the world, Dan, just like there was
far less music in the world. I welcome to think
about like frameworks for this. There's a strategist. He was
a chief officer at Translation. He was my boss, guy
named John Green, Like this is the world that he orbits.
(33:41):
He's just so phenomenal at this thing, like creating the
frameworks how brand and music are related so that we
make better decisions. That's what I think we need to
get to.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
And it's so true because the ones we talked about where,
you know, the where the market said, oh I get
that right instantly, was probably the one that had a
the right brief, right, the right frame around it. You know,
Tyler the creator Converse Conversus a canvas for creativity. That
is their brand, that is their product. Here's a guy
who's all about filling in those canvases perfect, right, And
(34:15):
I'm sure the way they executed that, you know, I
guess you were part of it. Congrats win there, you know,
but you know, you go, oh, I get the narrative.
It makes sense. And probably the collaboration and the stuff
that came out of it worked because they were on
the same brief.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Whereas it's you know.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
Even if it's it's espresso and I make coffee, that
may not be enough, right, The brief has to have
a more of a narrative or a story.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
It's not enough.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
I mean that that guild that that's a mic drop.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
It's not enough.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Like your category and your product connection to the artist
is not enough. It needs more story more meaning that is,
the brand has to be transcending the category to get
to some story that is ideological, that is emotional, that
is associative that people go, oh yeah, I know that.
(35:08):
I see the connection there. And when that happens, the
magic happens. And it seems obvious. But the calculus that
goes into it requires so much more than oh, I
like coffee and there's this r espresso put.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Those two hands together.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I mean, that's those things that sort of fall in
the wayside or fall fall by the wayside that ends
up becoming the wallpaper that apparently the market can tell.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Yes, the market does not love wallpaper. That's what I learned.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Or background music apparently that was fantastic. What a great
what a great episode, What a great episode. I love
this because I'm learning too, which is great. Like we're
going to love it. We are going to school, just
like our listeners. And you know, that's the value, that's
the utility that we bring, right So for everyone listening,
we're grateful to have you.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Yes, Market says, listen in there you go. Market says
it is the bubblo media. iHeart podcast production.
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