December 8, 2022 • 37 mins
You might be surprised to learn that legendary sportscaster Colin Cowherd rarely checks his ratings. As he puts it: checking your ratings doesn’t make your ratings better. Instead, Colin has some other tried-and-true ways to build an engaged audience— and it shows. With his program on Fox Sports and two podcast networks in partnership with iHeartPodcasts, Colin hasn’t just built an audience, he’s built an empire. Colin joins Bob to share insights on audience growth, his advice for advertisers and what lessons from pro athletes we can apply to any industry.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of I
Heart Radio. I'm in the volume business. I always tell
everybody I'm Steph Curry. I'm taking twenty five shots tonight.
I'm gonna miss half, and I'm gonna turn the ball
over three times. I'm out of the perfect business. I'm
out there taking thirty shots tonight and you're gonna miss half.
(00:23):
And if you only miss half, you're an all star. Hi.
I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome to Math and Magic. Stories
from the Frontiers and Marketing. My guest today is an
expert in something that can't be taught. It's a sixth
sense that very few of us are born with, but
he has it in spades. It's the innate ability to
create a need in the marketplace that wasn't there before,
(00:45):
and then to satisfy that need. He's a sports talk HiCon.
He's an entrepreneur and wildly successful podcaster. He's Colin Coward.
He started out in a small fishing village, fell in
love with radio as a kid, became an athlete and
worked on the school newspaper, then parlayed those early interests
into a massive career in his own self styled world
(01:07):
of sports broadcasting, announcing, reporting, hosting, anchoring, and most recently, podcasting.
He's done it all in every medium for the past
four decades, from the West Coast to the East Coast,
from local TV and radio to ESPN, to Fox Sports,
and to the digital realm and partnership with us here
at I heeart with not one but two podcast networks,
(01:28):
the Herb Podcast Network and the Volume Network. He's also
a two time published author, partner with a brewer to
make his own microbrew, and owns a burger restaurant in California.
And to top it off, he's a good guy. Colin. Welcome, Bob,
Thanks for having me. Jeez, I've been busy apparently before
we get started, I want to do you in sixty seconds. Ready, yep?
(01:53):
Do you prefer cats or dogs? Dogs? Cats are two
aloof East Coast or West Coast, like the West Coast
early riser or night ol early riser, text or email, email,
Super Bowl or World Series? Super Bowl. I like football,
beach or snow. If you gave me one great day
(02:14):
a year, it would be skiing snow over sun. Now
it's about to get a little harder. All time favorite
athlete Tiger Woods greatest sports caster of all time al Michael's.
He's probably the one guy that if I'm ever in
a room with, I feel like I would die to
have his talent. Smartest person you know, Bob Iger. And finally,
(02:38):
what's the best advice you ever received? It's not about
being right, it's about being compelling. Bruce Gilbert told me that, Colin.
Let's jump in now and start with the obvious sports
casting by reputation, you're the guy who finds the unique angle.
You're the thinker who examined something most have missed. And
(02:58):
on the other side of the spectrum you got the flamethrowers.
What is the tension between these two approaches, what you
do and what they do? And how is it changing
the profession? Well, I was never that interested in the
what the what is easy? What happened? The Lakers want?
Why did it happen? Explain it to me. That's much
more fascinating to me. I don't consider myself a flamethrower.
(03:22):
I think of myself as somebody who is really interested
in the story behind the story. I wrote my first
book and I talked about in the very beginning there's
two stories. The one the public gets and the truth.
And you know, big companies have PR firms and layers
and layers of people to protect companies and protect athletes,
(03:45):
and they have agents and handlers, and so my job
is to figure out why something happened, Why the story leaked,
why the story broke on Friday late afternoon, why was
it a news dump? What are protecting? That? To me
has just always been more interesting because that's what I
care about. So I think a great show should be
(04:07):
closest to your true self. If you're silly, do a
silly show. I love sports, but I really love life.
I like traveling, I like reading, I like new things.
So I want my show to exemplify that. I'm not
a debate guy. I've never watched really a debate show.
(04:27):
I'm not interested in that format. I don't want to
manufacture opinions to you know, justify or rating. I don't
have a problem with people doing that. It just doesn't
interest me. I don't find it compelling. I'm not somebody
that would argue about anything. I have my beliefs, you
have yours. I'm more interested. Why do you think the
(04:49):
way you think? Not what you think? We've all got
different opinions. Is your childhood the reason you think that?
Did you have a jarring event in your life? Why
do you think that way? The flamethrower approach. I don't
see myself as that. I think I'm self deprecating. I
think my audience knows I'm trying to find interesting angles.
But there's certainly room for that in the marketplace. I'm
(05:11):
just not that guy. How do you develop your topics?
How do you find that unique point? It's what we
care about in the morning meeting. I've been furnished with
a great staff. You know, I'm very lucky, Bob, because
I'm the last really successful sports simulcast. I have a
combined radio and TV production team. So it's double the
(05:32):
size of my competitors. That means twice as many eyes
and ears and brains. And so I come in the
morning with some thoughts, and I like my staff, my
team to pitch me ideas, give me a funny line,
a different angle. I mean, I've literally done a five
minute rant and then somebody in the end will throw
in a line and I'm like, oh, that's a way
(05:54):
more interesting angle, and I just spent twenty minutes on it.
I'll throw it out and start over. So we're constantly
pitching ideas. Somebody throws me a line, I write it down.
I'm like, that's funny, that's a funny line. That's a
memorable line. Because I've always believed that I have to
take the audience somewhere. I get nine to eleven minutes
of you in a car. I'm not gonna ramble. I
(06:16):
respect you, and I want to earn your respect. I
want to take you somewhere. You haven't been on a trip,
on a journey through a story, so when it's over
and you get out of your car, it's almost like
a column. Lead meet wrap it up at the end,
and I feel there's too much rambling in radio and
not enough true storytelling. With the beginning, a middle, and
(06:38):
an end, it closes. Take people somewhere, Give them something,
make him laugh, make him think, make them cry, make
them sometimes angry, make them question themselves. Take them somewhere.
Let's talk a little bit about history. Let's go back
to the Howard Coast cell era. How would you describe
that period and how and why did it evolve. Cosell
(07:01):
was my first idol. I love co Sell. He was irascible,
he was tough. He had an enormous ego. But if
you take Howard at his best, I think he's one
of the ten most important sportscasters of my life. He
challenged authority. He was on the right side of history.
He took big swings. I had on a podcast Peter
(07:24):
Goober as part owner of the you know the Warriors
and l a f C very successful guy in the
movie business. I could tell that he was kind of
a reasonably regular listener, and he said, you know, Colin,
you're irrascible. You know you're feisty. And I remember when
we got done, I thought, am I And that day
I thought, that's probably the influence Howard Cosell had on me.
(07:45):
Is that poke and proud and make people uncomfortable and
challenge authority. I think we're missing a little bit of
that today. I think people Bob now go to camps.
I'm on left, I'm on right. I'm pro athlete, I'm
pro owner. I like the independent thinker. I like the
independent fighter, fighting for the people, fighting for the truth,
(08:08):
willing to admit they're wrong. There's some Dick Young, the sportswriter,
Howard Cosell, some of that stuff would be seen as
inappropriate today roth vulgar, But I think modern media misses
a little bit of that. We're too finesse. Now, let's
jump a little bit. Sports in America has always worked
(08:29):
hand in hand with the media outlets to carry the games.
I mean for decades and decades. The world of media
right now is going through the biggest change I've seen
in my life. How is that changing sports for me?
Once leagues had their own networks, and I'm not really
a fan of any of them. Snowshot at MLB network
(08:50):
or Basketball or the NFL network, but they feel a
little generic and a little safe. But it did alleviate
the need for me to feel like a sports page.
If you like tennis, go watch the tennis channel. You
like hockey, watch the hockey channel. You like baseball, watch
the baseball channel. It's alleviated that day to day pressure
to be a sports page. I just cover now the
(09:12):
biggest stories. There's an insatiable want in this country for
authentic and real politics and sports are unscripted and there's
nothing else like them, and they're the only thing that
works now on terrestrial TV. I don't know why it
took so long, but that part's never changed. You know,
(09:33):
we've lived through so many different eras. I'm rarely outraged,
I'm rarely surprised. And you know, I find sometimes young
journalists they think everything's deaf con five, and I feel like, oh,
this has been happening since the sixties and seventies and eighties.
We've had greater challenges thirty years ago, fifty years ago.
When I look at sports, I can remember Sports Illustrated
(09:54):
having a cover story thirty years ago. TV networks will
not be able to afford these leads. Delo is a Fordham.
The bottom line is if I can put a truck
commercial on that football or basketball game and sales are
strong for that truck company or that soda company, where
else are they going to put their spots and get
that kind of result. So the cost of sports is greater,
(10:19):
But Bob, I watched the World Series. All the games
are sold out. I watched the NFL and college football
every Saturday. All the big games are sold out. So
there's a lot of fear around. It's too expensive, it's
not as relatable, and kids can't go to the games.
I turn on TV every weekend, Thursday Night Football, Monday
Night Football, the stadiums are packed. I don't think it's
(10:40):
changed that much. I think it's harder for a network
to make a profit if they own the NFL, but
they always find a way to do it. I kind
of confess I'm not the biggest sports fan you'll ever meet,
but I'm a huge fan of entrepreneurs in business. And
what intrigues me about you is how you move from
being on air talent to owning and running your own business.
(11:02):
And you've done it by the way again and again.
How do you think about that relationship between you as
the on air person and you as the business person.
I think I produced my show like I run my businesses.
I'm a good passer. I never want to be the
smartest person in the room. I like sharing the ball.
I like others. I don't want to be a workaholic.
(11:23):
I want to come into a room. I think I
have some intuitive senses on what works and what doesn't
for my brand, and so I don't need to always
have the right answer. I'm constantly seeking pushback on my
staff and on my businesses. I have a few rules.
Treat people well, pay people fairly. I have a certain
moral compass. I believe in But I think I run
(11:43):
my show like my businesses, be inclusive, include people in
the profits, sharing ideas. I think people want to be
part of those environments. The only time I lose people
on my team is when I get double the compensation.
Otherwise I keep my team members, And so I think
I think I'm easy to work for. I'll bark twice
a year it's something I don't like. I'll fight for
(12:04):
something I believe in. You know, a quarterback in high school.
I loved having a good running game. I love turning
to my running back and I didn't have to work
as hard because he was scoring, he was providing the offense.
I don't need to be the center of attention. You'd
think in radio I have to be the center of attention.
But I like really strong teammates, really strong producing. I
like being part of an ensemble and a cast. That's
(12:27):
my kind of theory on it. Don't be a ballhog share.
So how did you learn business? My dad was in
the stock market and there was always like a Wall
Street journal or a business section of a newspaper hanging around.
I like the constructive business as much as business. You know,
I've tried twice to buy into an MLS franchise. I've
(12:48):
always wanted to be, you know, an owner of a team.
I've got a draft beer, I got restaurants, I have
real estate, I've got companies. I've been a passive investor.
The volume I own again, part of a team. I
guess a lot of it comes from my dad. My
dad was kind of a Reagan conservative, love business. You know,
he would watch the stock market, um watch the nightly news,
(13:12):
and you know, so he had an influence over me.
You know, my mom used to always say, I was
eight going on forty. I was a pretty serious kid.
And so I've always hung out with people that are
older than I am for most of my life. You know,
they were more, i would say, professionally advanced. When I
was twenty eight or twenty nine, I'm hanging around a
forty year old. You know, they're in the middle, they're married,
they have kids, they're not going out at night, They're
(13:33):
talking about their business. I just enjoy it. I enjoyed
the process of it. I'm always you know, whether it's
I heart Fox, you know, I'm always you tell me
where are their stock options? How can I help an advertiser?
How can I elevate the relationship. That stuff always fascinated
me because Bob talking is easy for me. Talking sports
is pretty easy for me. The challenges sometimes are connecting
(13:56):
things to my business. Where can I find a link?
How do I make these things assist other things in
my little world of Colin So, you know, I think
at a very early age I was into it. I
was talking a little bit about sports and the changes
going on. You mentioned baseball, football, basketball, Well, they continue
(14:16):
to be the big three. This year I went to
Formula one here in Miami. Everyone said how much bigger
Formula One was than the Super Bowl, And literally Formula
one was in a parking lot. It sort of it
seems too in America anyway, just come out of nowhere,
you know, people are talking about pickleball. Now we've got
e sports, We've got all these new permutations. How does
(14:37):
it change the landscape of what we call sports? Well, basketball, football,
and baseball are the big three. But if you look
at my lifetime, boxing was far more popular at one point,
but it was poorly managed. College basketball was much bigger
in the seventies, eighties, nineties, but again not perfectly managed.
(14:59):
The asked high schoolers now want to go straight to
the NBA. It's become a turnstyle. Um it's it's almost
emotionally remote as a sport. The best players, you're one
and done, they're out horse racing. It feels like was
bigger Baseball was bigger in the seventies. I think a
lot of that has been iPhones and the caffeinated, frenetic
(15:20):
lifestyles of Americans are too fast for a very slow sport.
So outside of the NFL, nothing is really grown been
an ascending business for the last thirty years except football.
I think a large part of that, Bob is gambling,
which is at a jet fuel to it, and the
scarcity of games. There are so many games on television
(15:42):
now due to cable and new platforms and streaming that
the sports with the fewest games tend to be more popular.
So I still think we're a basketball, football, baseball country.
But I mean UFC took advantage of the lack of
leadership in boxing. Pickle Ball is emerging because maybe there's
(16:02):
not enough domestic tennis stars in America. Maybe there's an opening.
You know, the Boomers don't want to run around, they
got tennis elbow and sore knees. They want to be
in a more condensed space. F one racing. There was
a big Netflix special It caught Fire. It's international, it's cool.
Nascar are still much bigger in America. That's our product,
(16:23):
that's more domestic. But you know, I always think that
the Big three or four are sort of built in
to our psyche. But there's always room for a UFC
or an F one. Yeah, those are more niche, but
you know, I'm here for it. I mean, I think
sometimes we forget as Americans how popular soccer is. I
love the World Cup and I'll watch an occasional MLS match,
(16:47):
but you know, sometimes we can be very provincial. Um,
Soccer is significantly bigger. Ronaldo is significantly more globally known
than Tom Brady or Peyton Anning. And I think it
is the beautiful game. Uh, It's shorter, fewer commercials, goals
matter more, the crowds are equally frenzied. So I think
(17:10):
soccer globally football in America, basketball will always be at
the top of the food chain. More math and magic
right after this quick break. Welcome back to math and Magic.
Let's hear more from my conversation with Colin Cowern I
(17:34):
want to go back in time and look at your
origin story. You grew up in a small fishing village
south of Seattle in the sixties and seventies. Can you
paint a picture of those times? And that place one
of the rainiest spots in America? And I don't remember
anything but sunny days with my dog in the hills
(17:57):
of Grayland, Washington, on motorbikes with friends. I remember the summers,
the sand dunes, going down to the docks. My dad
loved the fish, salmon, fisherman. It was different back then.
You didn't know you're isolated. I didn't think I was
missing on everything. My mom was a wonderful cook. My
dad was the town optometrist. We didn't have a lot
(18:19):
of money, but we didn't lack for anything. It was
a very simple life. It was a life I knew,
and my sister and I talked about it all the time.
It was a wonderful childhood. I got a quarterback in
my high school team. I had a really fun, smart girlfriend,
two or three really close friends. I was into sports.
I wouldn't trade it for anything. I loved my childhood,
(18:40):
my high school years. What did you want to be
when you grew up a sportscaster when I was seven
eight years old. Knew it from the very beginning. Maybe
it was I didn't think my dad was paying enough
attention to me. He was a workaholic. There's a way
to get attention. I would do impersonations. I just knew
at a very early age. I loved sports. I love
watching it. I love talking it. I knew a lot
(19:03):
more so it was impressive to people when I was
ten years old and could you know rattle off stats.
People couldn't believe it so very early. It made me
feel good about myself. Any lessons you learned from your
childhood that you used today, Yeah, there's a big difference
between alone and lonely. I was alone a lot as
(19:23):
a kid, but I was rarely lonely. I think my
ability to talk for long stretches to myself is what
you had to do in rural America. I didn't have
neighbors next to me, and so I would play basketball
and call play by play by myself. You had to
be creative. I would play whiffleball right out the lineup cards,
(19:48):
played by myself. I was constantly doing things by myself.
I was alone, but I was having the time of
my life. I never look at those as as lonely
or sad time. I didn't know it at the time,
but I was already developing my skill to talk to
myself for hours and and to this day, my kids
are the same way. I tell my kids, respect yourself,
(20:10):
give yourself time. You know. I give myself an hour
to an hour and a half every afternoon to read,
listen to music, meditate. Um, it's really crucial time for
me every day. In the early eighties, you go off
to college. How did college help put you on the
path that you got on to success? I identified very
(20:31):
early how obsessed I was by sportscasting. There were six
or seven other men and women who wanted to be sportscasters.
None of them wanted it as badly as I did.
I didn't think any of them were as talented as
I did. They weren't doing impressions, they weren't listening to
(20:51):
radio all night long and recording it on a gigantic
AM FM cassette player like my mom gave me for Christmas.
I was just obsessed by it, you know, I had
all the things. Larry Ellison what said this? The founder
of oracle. I had all the things necessary for success. Ignored,
child of divorce, small town, had to make my fun, doubted,
(21:13):
high school, acne. You know, all those things that you
know are the bedrocks of many success stories. That that
chip on your shoulder. I had it at a very
early age. Did you ever think you might not make it?
And if you did, did you have any alternative paths?
Did you say, Okay, if I don't make it as
the sports, I'm doing this. You know, I never gave
(21:35):
it a lot of thought. I didn't. I never had
any real self doubt. I have surpassed what my expectations were.
I didn't know we'd have all these platforms I identified
pretty quickly. I was good with opinions. I thought I
was an average writer at best, an average TV anchor.
But I thought I was quick and witty and a
(21:56):
good storyteller and fairly, you know, good sense of humor.
I could talk about anything. I read a lot, so
I could. You know, you'd throw a curveball at me
and I could pick it up and and hit it somewhere.
So I never really gave serious thought to a second career.
How do you find talent and how do you coach
(22:17):
the talent to get the best out of them. Well,
the first six months i'm with any new staff, I
have to introduce them to me. So as I come
in the morning, when I first got to Fox or ESPN,
I take any time I can tell stories about my life.
I'm trying to introduce me to the staff. So I
like people engaged and people that add into the mix.
(22:39):
But not all of them are verbal. Some are good writers,
some are voracious readers. You know, I'm older, so I
like a young staff staff that introduces me to new things.
You know, Bob, It's just and I don't think this
is any special skill. I'm often looking for people who
can do what I can't. I'm not looking for yes man.
I'm looking for people who have a skill I don't,
(23:01):
or an interest I don't, and they can fill in
the gaps around my personality. I think every personality has
holes and gaps and strengths and liabilities. I'm looking for
gap fillers. You talked a little bit about core values
that you believe in. What core values do you have
for the team you put together the businesses you own
(23:21):
and run. I want us to have an honest staff.
If you're six day home. If you don't think you're
being treated fairly, speak up. If you get a job offered,
tell me, I'll fight to keep you, but i'll be
a great reference. You know, no real secrets. Tell me
what you think, honest feedback. I don't have to be
friends with everybody on the staff, but I want everybody
(23:43):
to feel a friendship that's on the staff, that we're
a team and we've got each other's backs. But we
don't have to hang out summer, old, summer, young, some
have big family, summer single, not necessarily feeling protected but supported.
You know, I fought for a lot of people. I
don't have to at Fox or Premier, but when I
was at ESPN, I fought for a lot of people.
(24:05):
They didn't pay very well. I had to go to
boss Is more than once and banging a table to
get people paid what I thought was a reasonable amount
for the services provided. So when I talk about core values,
they're more professional. Um. I don't dive into people's personal life.
I'd prefer they don't dive into mind. But I do
think there's kind of a moral code. If you're on
(24:27):
my staff, you know, I think I'm surrounded by really
good people, really people that protect me. They're there, you know,
they're they're they got my back, but they can also
make fun of me, you know when you talk for
three hours a day, Bob. As you well know, I'm
in the volume business. I always tell everybody I'm Steph Curry.
I'm taking twenty five shots tonight. I'm gonna miss half
and I'm gonna turn the ball over three times. But
(24:49):
I'm an artist. I'm gonna spill paint in order to
work fast, fluid, be funny, quick, witty. I'm out of
the perfect business. I'm out there taking thirty shots tonight
and you're gonna half. And if you only miss half,
you're an all star. So podcasting, you were big and
radio big and TV. How did you notice podcasting? You've
(25:10):
become one of the biggest stars in sports podcasting. Where
did that come from? What was your first inkling you
had something? Was there? Well, it was during COVID and
I got a call, I think from Julie Talbot. I
have a great relationship with Julie, and Julie said, you know,
it's the strangest thing. She said, there's no cars on
the road, and your ratings have stabilized. It shows the
(25:32):
loyalty of your audience. And I remember thinking, I said,
you know how our sales and she said, you know,
we're keeping them. We may not be growing, but we're
keeping them. The show sold out, and I remember thinking, Bob,
wait a minute. When covid ends there's gonna be a
greater demand for spots, right, well, if I don't have space,
(25:56):
they just go to ESPN. Where do they go? They
go to other shows. So I thought, Julie, if I
can own it, I'll create two thousand hours a month
of inventory of space so you can put these ads
on it and we can share in revenue. And so
to me, it was just it goes back to kind
of the business part of it. I'm like, it's gonna
(26:17):
be hard. If I can own it, I'll do a
rev share, but let me create a podcast network and
very quickly I'll be writing you checks. You won't be
just writing me checks. And that's how it was born.
Social media. How has it made sports better and how
has it made sports worse? And what role does it
play in the sports fans life and the life of
(26:39):
a sportscaster. Well, it's a visceral connection that you can
reach out and touch people. Now you can reach out
and connect with me. Um that part I like. I
don't like the vile nature of it. I have probably
a dozen social accounts, eleven are run by somebody else.
I do some Twitter. I think you have to be careful.
Dennis Miller of the comedian Wants said, when asked about
(27:01):
being on Monday Night Football, do you want to look
at the research? And he said no. If it's too good,
I'll get cocky, and if it's bad, I'll get insecure.
I try not to engage. I try not to worry
about it. I don't read a lot of it. I shoot,
you can't monetize my missus. You can't monetize miss shots.
I just do volume. I shoot. I throw stuff out there.
(27:22):
I hope people like it, and I think ultimately the
person that puts out the most quality content over time wins.
I think ours is very good. I do think it's
made a lot of sportscasters leery of strong opinions. You know,
nobody wants to be exposed or called out. But that's
never bothered me, so in a weird way, it's made
(27:43):
it easier for me that I think a lot of
hosts are terrified of criticism. I always feel like the
price and the privilege of relevance is criticism. So bring
it on. Let's do some advice. What advice would you
give to the major sports leagues for the growth of
(28:04):
the sports? More kids at games, and tighter security on
vulgar adults. I don't know how many times I've been
in discussions with friends who just don't want to go
to a pro event because people are too drunk, too loud.
I couldn't tell you the last time I went to
a baseball game and didn't see a fight in the stands.
(28:26):
I wish they had tighter security, they would limit alcohol.
I wish there were more kids. I want more kids
at my games. You know I'm not talking four but fourteen.
Excuse some advice for sports marketers and advertisers. What do
they get wrong? Most often, don't think you're smarter than
the public. If the public likes diet coke, give them
(28:49):
diet coke. I think sometimes managers try to outthink the
room and out clever the room. The audience tells you
what they like. Listen, they like football, Labor Day, the
February two. If you're not talking at sevent of the
time you're doing your audience and disservice and your advertisers,
(29:12):
your partners. The media tends to think they're smarter and
funnier and more clever than they are. Play the hits.
Respect your audience, Understand what topics resonate, don't outthink the room.
So finally, if you could go back in time, what
(29:33):
advice would you give your twenty one year old self.
Oh boy, that's a good question. SE's where do I start.
I grew up a child of divorce alcoholic father. Although
he was a very gracious guy. He wasn't a mean drinker,
very thoughtful, sweet, sweet guy. And because I didn't feel
(29:54):
I had sometimes the necessary support, I became self reliant
to a fault, and my only way to win and
succeed in my twenties in early thirties was fear based,
and I didn't look like who I was becoming. It
was I had to win, and I wanted to be
(30:15):
more joy based. I wanted to be happy when other
people were successful. I was given some advice. It was
sometime in nineteen eighty nine. I got out of college
in eight six and went to Vegas. It was probably
eighties seven and I was on a sales call with
(30:36):
my boss, Don Logan, and he had to go to
a big account and meet with the president of the
Union Plaza. And he didn't want me in the room.
I was too young. I was probably five years old.
So I went to the Union Plaza and I sat
next to a guy and he looked like he'd made money,
but he'd earned it. He was a Texan. He had
a rolex on, a white shirt, tan skinned, kind of
(30:56):
a you know, like a Marlboro Man looking guy. He
was sitting there with a whiskey rocks and planned poker
and he was waiting for a taxicab and he just
had a pretty good weekend there and he just sold
a bunch of radio and TV stations in Texas or Arkansas.
And I remember asking him, what advice would you give me?
(31:16):
And it really resonated with me, and it really does now.
He said, be happy for other people's success, beyond yourself.
And he said it and it was one of those
things that sounded great. But I wasn't in a space
to be able to do that because I was so
fear based and I just had to succeed. I knew
I had nothing to go back to really in rural Washington,
(31:37):
but I've gone back to that multiple times in my life,
and that's one of the reasons I love the volume
where I'm finding all this young talent and helping it
grow and promoting it. I wish I was more joy
based in my twenties and less fear based. I like
my competitive spirit, but I don't want it to be
hurting others. And I don't think I cared much about
(31:59):
how it ended into my twenties and early thirties, and
that was my reality, that was my psychology. So I've
gone to a lot of therapy on that. I'm generally
and genuinely happy for other sportscasters who have success. It
makes me happy. It brings a smile to my face
to see people kick butt, make money, get married, family success,
(32:21):
and I don't think I was capable of that in
my twenties, just based on my childhood and what I
was dealing with personally. So we end each episode of
Math and Magic by giving a shout out to the greats,
because Math and Magic is about the analytical side of business,
the math, and the really creative side of business, the magic.
You know, it's rare you find one person who does
(32:43):
both equally. Well, who's your mathematician, who's your magician? Let
me start with my magician. I'm not sure if you
ever read the Steve Jobs book. I think it was
by Walter Isaacson. It was like four books in one.
You learn about technology, Microsoft, Steve Jobs, Apple. You know.
One of the things I took from that that I
thought was so fascinating was that Steve Jobs his vision
(33:09):
of the iPhone is I'm going to create something you
can't live without, but you don't know it yet. I
think that's so fascinating, and I think so few people
can do that that I can't live without my iPhone today.
Steve Jobs saw that thirty years ago, twenty years ago.
(33:31):
To be able to see around that corner, it's wizardry.
I'm endlessly fascinated with the future and mostly bored with
the past, and so Steve Jobs, to me is everything
I would want from a boss. I just think he's
such a unique American innovator the math question. One of
(33:54):
the most fascinating people in sports, and you would not
think of him as mad athy, but he was a chemist.
Was Jerry Buss, the former owner of the Lakers and
Jerry Buss through his personal Piccadillos really changed sports in America.
(34:15):
That he brought the Laker girls. Nobody did that, the
forum club, nobody did that, the lighting for Laker games.
It became a television product, not just an in person product.
When I look at the structural branding of the Lakers,
from the uniform colors to putting celebrities in the front row,
(34:40):
to the nightclub atmosphere, it's almost like Jerry Buss skipped
a generation. He was a generation ahead of everybody on that.
It's why the Lakers are one of the only major
cities in America that are a basketball brand over a
football brand. He just vis really just emotionally connected. The
(35:02):
mailman in your street, the celebrity in Beverly Hills or
bell Air. They all felt the same about the Lakers.
It was their team. He made sports cool. When I
watched the winning time on HBO, I sat back and
I thought he was decades ahead of his time. Colin.
(35:23):
Congrats on all your success and thanks for sharing your
stories today. Ah Bob, thanks so much. I loved it.
Thank you so much, and thanks, by the way for
all you're doing with us. We love having you as
part of our family too. I love being part of
the family. Thank you, Bob. Here are a few things
(35:44):
I picked up in my conversation with Colin. One, listen
to your audience. Collins advice to advertisers is when the
audience tells you what they like, believe them. Colin says,
play the hits and don't try to outthink the room.
To us the ball, even the most skilled athletes shouldn't
hog the ball. By sharing responsibilities among a trusted team,
(36:07):
you can amplify everyone's strings. Three. Prioritize cause over effect.
When doing research, Colin doesn't ask what he asked why.
This curiosity around root causes is one of the things
that makes Colin such a compelling storyteller. I'm Bob Pittman.
(36:28):
Thanks for listening. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so
much for listening to Math and Magic, a production of
I Heart Radio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman.
Special thanks to Susan Ward for booking and wrangling our
(36:50):
wonderful talent, which is no small feet. Our editors are
Derrek Clements and Emily Maynot. Our producer Morgan Levoy, our
executive producer Nikki Etour and of course Gail Raoul, Eeric Angel,
Noel and everyone who helped bring this show to your ears.
Until next time,
You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of I
Heart Radio. I'm in the volume business. I always tell
everybody I'm Steph Curry. I'm taking twenty five shots tonight.
I'm gonna miss half, and I'm gonna turn the ball
over three times. I'm out of the perfect business. I'm
out there taking thirty shots tonight and you're gonna miss half.
(00:23):
And if you only miss half, you're an all star. Hi.
I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome to Math and Magic. Stories
from the Frontiers and Marketing. My guest today is an
expert in something that can't be taught. It's a sixth
sense that very few of us are born with, but
he has it in spades. It's the innate ability to
create a need in the marketplace that wasn't there before,
(00:45):
and then to satisfy that need. He's a sports talk HiCon.
He's an entrepreneur and wildly successful podcaster. He's Colin Coward.
He started out in a small fishing village, fell in
love with radio as a kid, became an athlete and
worked on the school newspaper, then parlayed those early interests
into a massive career in his own self styled world
(01:07):
of sports broadcasting, announcing, reporting, hosting, anchoring, and most recently, podcasting.
He's done it all in every medium for the past
four decades, from the West Coast to the East Coast,
from local TV and radio to ESPN, to Fox Sports,
and to the digital realm and partnership with us here
at I heeart with not one but two podcast networks,
(01:28):
the Herb Podcast Network and the Volume Network. He's also
a two time published author, partner with a brewer to
make his own microbrew, and owns a burger restaurant in California.
And to top it off, he's a good guy. Colin. Welcome, Bob,
Thanks for having me. Jeez, I've been busy apparently before
we get started, I want to do you in sixty seconds. Ready, yep?
(01:53):
Do you prefer cats or dogs? Dogs? Cats are two
aloof East Coast or West Coast, like the West Coast
early riser or night ol early riser, text or email, email,
Super Bowl or World Series? Super Bowl. I like football,
beach or snow. If you gave me one great day
(02:14):
a year, it would be skiing snow over sun. Now
it's about to get a little harder. All time favorite
athlete Tiger Woods greatest sports caster of all time al Michael's.
He's probably the one guy that if I'm ever in
a room with, I feel like I would die to
have his talent. Smartest person you know, Bob Iger. And finally,
(02:38):
what's the best advice you ever received? It's not about
being right, it's about being compelling. Bruce Gilbert told me that, Colin.
Let's jump in now and start with the obvious sports
casting by reputation, you're the guy who finds the unique angle.
You're the thinker who examined something most have missed. And
(02:58):
on the other side of the spectrum you got the flamethrowers.
What is the tension between these two approaches, what you
do and what they do? And how is it changing
the profession? Well, I was never that interested in the
what the what is easy? What happened? The Lakers want?
Why did it happen? Explain it to me. That's much
more fascinating to me. I don't consider myself a flamethrower.
(03:22):
I think of myself as somebody who is really interested
in the story behind the story. I wrote my first
book and I talked about in the very beginning there's
two stories. The one the public gets and the truth.
And you know, big companies have PR firms and layers
and layers of people to protect companies and protect athletes,
(03:45):
and they have agents and handlers, and so my job
is to figure out why something happened, Why the story leaked,
why the story broke on Friday late afternoon, why was
it a news dump? What are protecting? That? To me
has just always been more interesting because that's what I
care about. So I think a great show should be
(04:07):
closest to your true self. If you're silly, do a
silly show. I love sports, but I really love life.
I like traveling, I like reading, I like new things.
So I want my show to exemplify that. I'm not
a debate guy. I've never watched really a debate show.
(04:27):
I'm not interested in that format. I don't want to
manufacture opinions to you know, justify or rating. I don't
have a problem with people doing that. It just doesn't
interest me. I don't find it compelling. I'm not somebody
that would argue about anything. I have my beliefs, you
have yours. I'm more interested. Why do you think the
(04:49):
way you think? Not what you think? We've all got
different opinions. Is your childhood the reason you think that?
Did you have a jarring event in your life? Why
do you think that way? The flamethrower approach. I don't
see myself as that. I think I'm self deprecating. I
think my audience knows I'm trying to find interesting angles.
But there's certainly room for that in the marketplace. I'm
(05:11):
just not that guy. How do you develop your topics?
How do you find that unique point? It's what we
care about in the morning meeting. I've been furnished with
a great staff. You know, I'm very lucky, Bob, because
I'm the last really successful sports simulcast. I have a
combined radio and TV production team. So it's double the
(05:32):
size of my competitors. That means twice as many eyes
and ears and brains. And so I come in the
morning with some thoughts, and I like my staff, my
team to pitch me ideas, give me a funny line,
a different angle. I mean, I've literally done a five
minute rant and then somebody in the end will throw
in a line and I'm like, oh, that's a way
(05:54):
more interesting angle, and I just spent twenty minutes on it.
I'll throw it out and start over. So we're constantly
pitching ideas. Somebody throws me a line, I write it down.
I'm like, that's funny, that's a funny line. That's a
memorable line. Because I've always believed that I have to
take the audience somewhere. I get nine to eleven minutes
of you in a car. I'm not gonna ramble. I
(06:16):
respect you, and I want to earn your respect. I
want to take you somewhere. You haven't been on a trip,
on a journey through a story, so when it's over
and you get out of your car, it's almost like
a column. Lead meet wrap it up at the end,
and I feel there's too much rambling in radio and
not enough true storytelling. With the beginning, a middle, and
(06:38):
an end, it closes. Take people somewhere, Give them something,
make him laugh, make him think, make them cry, make
them sometimes angry, make them question themselves. Take them somewhere.
Let's talk a little bit about history. Let's go back
to the Howard Coast cell era. How would you describe
that period and how and why did it evolve. Cosell
(07:01):
was my first idol. I love co Sell. He was irascible,
he was tough. He had an enormous ego. But if
you take Howard at his best, I think he's one
of the ten most important sportscasters of my life. He
challenged authority. He was on the right side of history.
He took big swings. I had on a podcast Peter
(07:24):
Goober as part owner of the you know the Warriors
and l a f C very successful guy in the
movie business. I could tell that he was kind of
a reasonably regular listener, and he said, you know, Colin,
you're irrascible. You know you're feisty. And I remember when
we got done, I thought, am I And that day
I thought, that's probably the influence Howard Cosell had on me.
(07:45):
Is that poke and proud and make people uncomfortable and
challenge authority. I think we're missing a little bit of
that today. I think people Bob now go to camps.
I'm on left, I'm on right. I'm pro athlete, I'm
pro owner. I like the independent thinker. I like the
independent fighter, fighting for the people, fighting for the truth,
(08:08):
willing to admit they're wrong. There's some Dick Young, the sportswriter,
Howard Cosell, some of that stuff would be seen as
inappropriate today roth vulgar, But I think modern media misses
a little bit of that. We're too finesse. Now, let's
jump a little bit. Sports in America has always worked
(08:29):
hand in hand with the media outlets to carry the games.
I mean for decades and decades. The world of media
right now is going through the biggest change I've seen
in my life. How is that changing sports for me?
Once leagues had their own networks, and I'm not really
a fan of any of them. Snowshot at MLB network
(08:50):
or Basketball or the NFL network, but they feel a
little generic and a little safe. But it did alleviate
the need for me to feel like a sports page.
If you like tennis, go watch the tennis channel. You
like hockey, watch the hockey channel. You like baseball, watch
the baseball channel. It's alleviated that day to day pressure
to be a sports page. I just cover now the
(09:12):
biggest stories. There's an insatiable want in this country for
authentic and real politics and sports are unscripted and there's
nothing else like them, and they're the only thing that
works now on terrestrial TV. I don't know why it
took so long, but that part's never changed. You know,
(09:33):
we've lived through so many different eras. I'm rarely outraged,
I'm rarely surprised. And you know, I find sometimes young
journalists they think everything's deaf con five, and I feel like, oh,
this has been happening since the sixties and seventies and eighties.
We've had greater challenges thirty years ago, fifty years ago.
When I look at sports, I can remember Sports Illustrated
(09:54):
having a cover story thirty years ago. TV networks will
not be able to afford these leads. Delo is a Fordham.
The bottom line is if I can put a truck
commercial on that football or basketball game and sales are
strong for that truck company or that soda company, where
else are they going to put their spots and get
that kind of result. So the cost of sports is greater,
(10:19):
But Bob, I watched the World Series. All the games
are sold out. I watched the NFL and college football
every Saturday. All the big games are sold out. So
there's a lot of fear around. It's too expensive, it's
not as relatable, and kids can't go to the games.
I turn on TV every weekend, Thursday Night Football, Monday
Night Football, the stadiums are packed. I don't think it's
(10:40):
changed that much. I think it's harder for a network
to make a profit if they own the NFL, but
they always find a way to do it. I kind
of confess I'm not the biggest sports fan you'll ever meet,
but I'm a huge fan of entrepreneurs in business. And
what intrigues me about you is how you move from
being on air talent to owning and running your own business.
(11:02):
And you've done it by the way again and again.
How do you think about that relationship between you as
the on air person and you as the business person.
I think I produced my show like I run my businesses.
I'm a good passer. I never want to be the
smartest person in the room. I like sharing the ball.
I like others. I don't want to be a workaholic.
(11:23):
I want to come into a room. I think I
have some intuitive senses on what works and what doesn't
for my brand, and so I don't need to always
have the right answer. I'm constantly seeking pushback on my
staff and on my businesses. I have a few rules.
Treat people well, pay people fairly. I have a certain
moral compass. I believe in But I think I run
(11:43):
my show like my businesses, be inclusive, include people in
the profits, sharing ideas. I think people want to be
part of those environments. The only time I lose people
on my team is when I get double the compensation.
Otherwise I keep my team members, And so I think
I think I'm easy to work for. I'll bark twice
a year it's something I don't like. I'll fight for
(12:04):
something I believe in. You know, a quarterback in high school.
I loved having a good running game. I love turning
to my running back and I didn't have to work
as hard because he was scoring, he was providing the offense.
I don't need to be the center of attention. You'd
think in radio I have to be the center of attention.
But I like really strong teammates, really strong producing. I
like being part of an ensemble and a cast. That's
(12:27):
my kind of theory on it. Don't be a ballhog share.
So how did you learn business? My dad was in
the stock market and there was always like a Wall
Street journal or a business section of a newspaper hanging around.
I like the constructive business as much as business. You know,
I've tried twice to buy into an MLS franchise. I've
(12:48):
always wanted to be, you know, an owner of a team.
I've got a draft beer, I got restaurants, I have
real estate, I've got companies. I've been a passive investor.
The volume I own again, part of a team. I
guess a lot of it comes from my dad. My
dad was kind of a Reagan conservative, love business. You know,
he would watch the stock market, um watch the nightly news,
(13:12):
and you know, so he had an influence over me.
You know, my mom used to always say, I was
eight going on forty. I was a pretty serious kid.
And so I've always hung out with people that are
older than I am for most of my life. You know,
they were more, i would say, professionally advanced. When I
was twenty eight or twenty nine, I'm hanging around a
forty year old. You know, they're in the middle, they're married,
they have kids, they're not going out at night, They're
(13:33):
talking about their business. I just enjoy it. I enjoyed
the process of it. I'm always you know, whether it's
I heart Fox, you know, I'm always you tell me
where are their stock options? How can I help an advertiser?
How can I elevate the relationship. That stuff always fascinated
me because Bob talking is easy for me. Talking sports
is pretty easy for me. The challenges sometimes are connecting
(13:56):
things to my business. Where can I find a link?
How do I make these things assist other things in
my little world of Colin So, you know, I think
at a very early age I was into it. I
was talking a little bit about sports and the changes
going on. You mentioned baseball, football, basketball, Well, they continue
(14:16):
to be the big three. This year I went to
Formula one here in Miami. Everyone said how much bigger
Formula One was than the Super Bowl, And literally Formula
one was in a parking lot. It sort of it
seems too in America anyway, just come out of nowhere,
you know, people are talking about pickleball. Now we've got
e sports, We've got all these new permutations. How does
(14:37):
it change the landscape of what we call sports? Well, basketball, football,
and baseball are the big three. But if you look
at my lifetime, boxing was far more popular at one point,
but it was poorly managed. College basketball was much bigger
in the seventies, eighties, nineties, but again not perfectly managed.
(14:59):
The asked high schoolers now want to go straight to
the NBA. It's become a turnstyle. Um it's it's almost
emotionally remote as a sport. The best players, you're one
and done, they're out horse racing. It feels like was
bigger Baseball was bigger in the seventies. I think a
lot of that has been iPhones and the caffeinated, frenetic
(15:20):
lifestyles of Americans are too fast for a very slow sport.
So outside of the NFL, nothing is really grown been
an ascending business for the last thirty years except football.
I think a large part of that, Bob is gambling,
which is at a jet fuel to it, and the
scarcity of games. There are so many games on television
(15:42):
now due to cable and new platforms and streaming that
the sports with the fewest games tend to be more popular.
So I still think we're a basketball, football, baseball country.
But I mean UFC took advantage of the lack of
leadership in boxing. Pickle Ball is emerging because maybe there's
(16:02):
not enough domestic tennis stars in America. Maybe there's an opening.
You know, the Boomers don't want to run around, they
got tennis elbow and sore knees. They want to be
in a more condensed space. F one racing. There was
a big Netflix special It caught Fire. It's international, it's cool.
Nascar are still much bigger in America. That's our product,
(16:23):
that's more domestic. But you know, I always think that
the Big three or four are sort of built in
to our psyche. But there's always room for a UFC
or an F one. Yeah, those are more niche, but
you know, I'm here for it. I mean, I think
sometimes we forget as Americans how popular soccer is. I
love the World Cup and I'll watch an occasional MLS match,
(16:47):
but you know, sometimes we can be very provincial. Um,
Soccer is significantly bigger. Ronaldo is significantly more globally known
than Tom Brady or Peyton Anning. And I think it
is the beautiful game. Uh, It's shorter, fewer commercials, goals
matter more, the crowds are equally frenzied. So I think
(17:10):
soccer globally football in America, basketball will always be at
the top of the food chain. More math and magic
right after this quick break. Welcome back to math and Magic.
Let's hear more from my conversation with Colin Cowern I
(17:34):
want to go back in time and look at your
origin story. You grew up in a small fishing village
south of Seattle in the sixties and seventies. Can you
paint a picture of those times? And that place one
of the rainiest spots in America? And I don't remember
anything but sunny days with my dog in the hills
(17:57):
of Grayland, Washington, on motorbikes with friends. I remember the summers,
the sand dunes, going down to the docks. My dad
loved the fish, salmon, fisherman. It was different back then.
You didn't know you're isolated. I didn't think I was
missing on everything. My mom was a wonderful cook. My
dad was the town optometrist. We didn't have a lot
(18:19):
of money, but we didn't lack for anything. It was
a very simple life. It was a life I knew,
and my sister and I talked about it all the time.
It was a wonderful childhood. I got a quarterback in
my high school team. I had a really fun, smart girlfriend,
two or three really close friends. I was into sports.
I wouldn't trade it for anything. I loved my childhood,
(18:40):
my high school years. What did you want to be
when you grew up a sportscaster when I was seven
eight years old. Knew it from the very beginning. Maybe
it was I didn't think my dad was paying enough
attention to me. He was a workaholic. There's a way
to get attention. I would do impersonations. I just knew
at a very early age. I loved sports. I love
watching it. I love talking it. I knew a lot
(19:03):
more so it was impressive to people when I was
ten years old and could you know rattle off stats.
People couldn't believe it so very early. It made me
feel good about myself. Any lessons you learned from your
childhood that you used today, Yeah, there's a big difference
between alone and lonely. I was alone a lot as
(19:23):
a kid, but I was rarely lonely. I think my
ability to talk for long stretches to myself is what
you had to do in rural America. I didn't have
neighbors next to me, and so I would play basketball
and call play by play by myself. You had to
be creative. I would play whiffleball right out the lineup cards,
(19:48):
played by myself. I was constantly doing things by myself.
I was alone, but I was having the time of
my life. I never look at those as as lonely
or sad time. I didn't know it at the time,
but I was already developing my skill to talk to
myself for hours and and to this day, my kids
are the same way. I tell my kids, respect yourself,
(20:10):
give yourself time. You know. I give myself an hour
to an hour and a half every afternoon to read,
listen to music, meditate. Um, it's really crucial time for
me every day. In the early eighties, you go off
to college. How did college help put you on the
path that you got on to success? I identified very
(20:31):
early how obsessed I was by sportscasting. There were six
or seven other men and women who wanted to be sportscasters.
None of them wanted it as badly as I did.
I didn't think any of them were as talented as
I did. They weren't doing impressions, they weren't listening to
(20:51):
radio all night long and recording it on a gigantic
AM FM cassette player like my mom gave me for Christmas.
I was just obsessed by it, you know, I had
all the things. Larry Ellison what said this? The founder
of oracle. I had all the things necessary for success. Ignored,
child of divorce, small town, had to make my fun, doubted,
(21:13):
high school, acne. You know, all those things that you
know are the bedrocks of many success stories. That that
chip on your shoulder. I had it at a very
early age. Did you ever think you might not make it?
And if you did, did you have any alternative paths?
Did you say, Okay, if I don't make it as
the sports, I'm doing this. You know, I never gave
(21:35):
it a lot of thought. I didn't. I never had
any real self doubt. I have surpassed what my expectations were.
I didn't know we'd have all these platforms I identified
pretty quickly. I was good with opinions. I thought I
was an average writer at best, an average TV anchor.
But I thought I was quick and witty and a
(21:56):
good storyteller and fairly, you know, good sense of humor.
I could talk about anything. I read a lot, so
I could. You know, you'd throw a curveball at me
and I could pick it up and and hit it somewhere.
So I never really gave serious thought to a second career.
How do you find talent and how do you coach
(22:17):
the talent to get the best out of them. Well,
the first six months i'm with any new staff, I
have to introduce them to me. So as I come
in the morning, when I first got to Fox or ESPN,
I take any time I can tell stories about my life.
I'm trying to introduce me to the staff. So I
like people engaged and people that add into the mix.
(22:39):
But not all of them are verbal. Some are good writers,
some are voracious readers. You know, I'm older, so I
like a young staff staff that introduces me to new things.
You know, Bob, It's just and I don't think this
is any special skill. I'm often looking for people who
can do what I can't. I'm not looking for yes man.
I'm looking for people who have a skill I don't,
(23:01):
or an interest I don't, and they can fill in
the gaps around my personality. I think every personality has
holes and gaps and strengths and liabilities. I'm looking for
gap fillers. You talked a little bit about core values
that you believe in. What core values do you have
for the team you put together the businesses you own
(23:21):
and run. I want us to have an honest staff.
If you're six day home. If you don't think you're
being treated fairly, speak up. If you get a job offered,
tell me, I'll fight to keep you, but i'll be
a great reference. You know, no real secrets. Tell me
what you think, honest feedback. I don't have to be
friends with everybody on the staff, but I want everybody
(23:43):
to feel a friendship that's on the staff, that we're
a team and we've got each other's backs. But we
don't have to hang out summer, old, summer, young, some
have big family, summer single, not necessarily feeling protected but supported.
You know, I fought for a lot of people. I
don't have to at Fox or Premier, but when I
was at ESPN, I fought for a lot of people.
(24:05):
They didn't pay very well. I had to go to
boss Is more than once and banging a table to
get people paid what I thought was a reasonable amount
for the services provided. So when I talk about core values,
they're more professional. Um. I don't dive into people's personal life.
I'd prefer they don't dive into mind. But I do
think there's kind of a moral code. If you're on
(24:27):
my staff, you know, I think I'm surrounded by really
good people, really people that protect me. They're there, you know,
they're they're they got my back, but they can also
make fun of me, you know when you talk for
three hours a day, Bob. As you well know, I'm
in the volume business. I always tell everybody I'm Steph Curry.
I'm taking twenty five shots tonight. I'm gonna miss half
and I'm gonna turn the ball over three times. But
(24:49):
I'm an artist. I'm gonna spill paint in order to
work fast, fluid, be funny, quick, witty. I'm out of
the perfect business. I'm out there taking thirty shots tonight
and you're gonna half. And if you only miss half,
you're an all star. So podcasting, you were big and
radio big and TV. How did you notice podcasting? You've
(25:10):
become one of the biggest stars in sports podcasting. Where
did that come from? What was your first inkling you
had something? Was there? Well, it was during COVID and
I got a call, I think from Julie Talbot. I
have a great relationship with Julie, and Julie said, you know,
it's the strangest thing. She said, there's no cars on
the road, and your ratings have stabilized. It shows the
(25:32):
loyalty of your audience. And I remember thinking, I said,
you know how our sales and she said, you know,
we're keeping them. We may not be growing, but we're
keeping them. The show sold out, and I remember thinking, Bob,
wait a minute. When covid ends there's gonna be a
greater demand for spots, right, well, if I don't have space,
(25:56):
they just go to ESPN. Where do they go? They
go to other shows. So I thought, Julie, if I
can own it, I'll create two thousand hours a month
of inventory of space so you can put these ads
on it and we can share in revenue. And so
to me, it was just it goes back to kind
of the business part of it. I'm like, it's gonna
(26:17):
be hard. If I can own it, I'll do a
rev share, but let me create a podcast network and
very quickly I'll be writing you checks. You won't be
just writing me checks. And that's how it was born.
Social media. How has it made sports better and how
has it made sports worse? And what role does it
play in the sports fans life and the life of
(26:39):
a sportscaster. Well, it's a visceral connection that you can
reach out and touch people. Now you can reach out
and connect with me. Um that part I like. I
don't like the vile nature of it. I have probably
a dozen social accounts, eleven are run by somebody else.
I do some Twitter. I think you have to be careful.
Dennis Miller of the comedian Wants said, when asked about
(27:01):
being on Monday Night Football, do you want to look
at the research? And he said no. If it's too good,
I'll get cocky, and if it's bad, I'll get insecure.
I try not to engage. I try not to worry
about it. I don't read a lot of it. I shoot,
you can't monetize my missus. You can't monetize miss shots.
I just do volume. I shoot. I throw stuff out there.
(27:22):
I hope people like it, and I think ultimately the
person that puts out the most quality content over time wins.
I think ours is very good. I do think it's
made a lot of sportscasters leery of strong opinions. You know,
nobody wants to be exposed or called out. But that's
never bothered me, so in a weird way, it's made
(27:43):
it easier for me that I think a lot of
hosts are terrified of criticism. I always feel like the
price and the privilege of relevance is criticism. So bring
it on. Let's do some advice. What advice would you
give to the major sports leagues for the growth of
(28:04):
the sports? More kids at games, and tighter security on
vulgar adults. I don't know how many times I've been
in discussions with friends who just don't want to go
to a pro event because people are too drunk, too loud.
I couldn't tell you the last time I went to
a baseball game and didn't see a fight in the stands.
(28:26):
I wish they had tighter security, they would limit alcohol.
I wish there were more kids. I want more kids
at my games. You know I'm not talking four but fourteen.
Excuse some advice for sports marketers and advertisers. What do
they get wrong? Most often, don't think you're smarter than
the public. If the public likes diet coke, give them
(28:49):
diet coke. I think sometimes managers try to outthink the
room and out clever the room. The audience tells you
what they like. Listen, they like football, Labor Day, the
February two. If you're not talking at sevent of the
time you're doing your audience and disservice and your advertisers,
(29:12):
your partners. The media tends to think they're smarter and
funnier and more clever than they are. Play the hits.
Respect your audience, Understand what topics resonate, don't outthink the room.
So finally, if you could go back in time, what
(29:33):
advice would you give your twenty one year old self.
Oh boy, that's a good question. SE's where do I start.
I grew up a child of divorce alcoholic father. Although
he was a very gracious guy. He wasn't a mean drinker,
very thoughtful, sweet, sweet guy. And because I didn't feel
(29:54):
I had sometimes the necessary support, I became self reliant
to a fault, and my only way to win and
succeed in my twenties in early thirties was fear based,
and I didn't look like who I was becoming. It
was I had to win, and I wanted to be
(30:15):
more joy based. I wanted to be happy when other
people were successful. I was given some advice. It was
sometime in nineteen eighty nine. I got out of college
in eight six and went to Vegas. It was probably
eighties seven and I was on a sales call with
(30:36):
my boss, Don Logan, and he had to go to
a big account and meet with the president of the
Union Plaza. And he didn't want me in the room.
I was too young. I was probably five years old.
So I went to the Union Plaza and I sat
next to a guy and he looked like he'd made money,
but he'd earned it. He was a Texan. He had
a rolex on, a white shirt, tan skinned, kind of
(30:56):
a you know, like a Marlboro Man looking guy. He
was sitting there with a whiskey rocks and planned poker
and he was waiting for a taxicab and he just
had a pretty good weekend there and he just sold
a bunch of radio and TV stations in Texas or Arkansas.
And I remember asking him, what advice would you give me?
(31:16):
And it really resonated with me, and it really does now.
He said, be happy for other people's success, beyond yourself.
And he said it and it was one of those
things that sounded great. But I wasn't in a space
to be able to do that because I was so
fear based and I just had to succeed. I knew
I had nothing to go back to really in rural Washington,
(31:37):
but I've gone back to that multiple times in my life,
and that's one of the reasons I love the volume
where I'm finding all this young talent and helping it
grow and promoting it. I wish I was more joy
based in my twenties and less fear based. I like
my competitive spirit, but I don't want it to be
hurting others. And I don't think I cared much about
(31:59):
how it ended into my twenties and early thirties, and
that was my reality, that was my psychology. So I've
gone to a lot of therapy on that. I'm generally
and genuinely happy for other sportscasters who have success. It
makes me happy. It brings a smile to my face
to see people kick butt, make money, get married, family success,
(32:21):
and I don't think I was capable of that in
my twenties, just based on my childhood and what I
was dealing with personally. So we end each episode of
Math and Magic by giving a shout out to the greats,
because Math and Magic is about the analytical side of business,
the math, and the really creative side of business, the magic.
You know, it's rare you find one person who does
(32:43):
both equally. Well, who's your mathematician, who's your magician? Let
me start with my magician. I'm not sure if you
ever read the Steve Jobs book. I think it was
by Walter Isaacson. It was like four books in one.
You learn about technology, Microsoft, Steve Jobs, Apple. You know.
One of the things I took from that that I
thought was so fascinating was that Steve Jobs his vision
(33:09):
of the iPhone is I'm going to create something you
can't live without, but you don't know it yet. I
think that's so fascinating, and I think so few people
can do that that I can't live without my iPhone today.
Steve Jobs saw that thirty years ago, twenty years ago.
(33:31):
To be able to see around that corner, it's wizardry.
I'm endlessly fascinated with the future and mostly bored with
the past, and so Steve Jobs, to me is everything
I would want from a boss. I just think he's
such a unique American innovator the math question. One of
(33:54):
the most fascinating people in sports, and you would not
think of him as mad athy, but he was a chemist.
Was Jerry Buss, the former owner of the Lakers and
Jerry Buss through his personal Piccadillos really changed sports in America.
(34:15):
That he brought the Laker girls. Nobody did that, the
forum club, nobody did that, the lighting for Laker games.
It became a television product, not just an in person product.
When I look at the structural branding of the Lakers,
from the uniform colors to putting celebrities in the front row,
(34:40):
to the nightclub atmosphere, it's almost like Jerry Buss skipped
a generation. He was a generation ahead of everybody on that.
It's why the Lakers are one of the only major
cities in America that are a basketball brand over a
football brand. He just vis really just emotionally connected. The
(35:02):
mailman in your street, the celebrity in Beverly Hills or
bell Air. They all felt the same about the Lakers.
It was their team. He made sports cool. When I
watched the winning time on HBO, I sat back and
I thought he was decades ahead of his time. Colin.
(35:23):
Congrats on all your success and thanks for sharing your
stories today. Ah Bob, thanks so much. I loved it.
Thank you so much, and thanks, by the way for
all you're doing with us. We love having you as
part of our family too. I love being part of
the family. Thank you, Bob. Here are a few things
(35:44):
I picked up in my conversation with Colin. One, listen
to your audience. Collins advice to advertisers is when the
audience tells you what they like, believe them. Colin says,
play the hits and don't try to outthink the room.
To us the ball, even the most skilled athletes shouldn't
hog the ball. By sharing responsibilities among a trusted team,
(36:07):
you can amplify everyone's strings. Three. Prioritize cause over effect.
When doing research, Colin doesn't ask what he asked why.
This curiosity around root causes is one of the things
that makes Colin such a compelling storyteller. I'm Bob Pittman.
(36:28):
Thanks for listening. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so
much for listening to Math and Magic, a production of
I Heart Radio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman.
Special thanks to Susan Ward for booking and wrangling our
(36:50):
wonderful talent, which is no small feet. Our editors are
Derrek Clements and Emily Maynot. Our producer Morgan Levoy, our
executive producer Nikki Etour and of course Gail Raoul, Eeric Angel,
Noel and everyone who helped bring this show to your ears.
Until next time,
Host
Bob Pittman
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