Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Misspelling with Tory Spelling and iHeartRadio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Here we are.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
It's December, which is a trying time, the holiday season
for everyone.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I believe.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I am a single mom now five kids, a lot
going on, a lot to unpack designer of course.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Except the stuff I sold.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
But doctor Hillary, help me, help me. Yes, I'm ready. Okay, So,
oh my gosh, where do we begin? So May sixteenth,
nineteen seventy three. I was born in Los No.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm just kidding. I'm just getting imagine.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Sorry, I use jokes a lot, and I'm aware that
is a coping mechanism.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
What does that mean? I've never asked anyone. I just
do it.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
So glad you're talking about it. I think it's worth
while to look at both sides. On one hand, humor
is an amazing way to compartmentalize hard stuff and trauma
and chronic despair and hopelessness and frustration and anxiety and
all that. And compartmentalization is a critical component of like
(01:22):
getting through tricky times. If you're assaulted by your feelings
on the regular, it's hard to make choices. So humor's
a great way to be able to silo some of
the hard stuff. But you're sort of alluding to the
fact that it's possible you overuse it, right, and if
you do, why, And is there some avoidance of hard
(01:45):
moments or awkward pauses or issues that feel really vulnerable
or showing up in a way that puts you in
a light that feels uncomfortable. It's not like a good
or bad right, wrong, past fail. It's not dichotomous. It's
just going to be curious about if it's something that
you rely on regularly.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
I feel like I use it a number of reasons.
I think it's one to people please, because I'm a
people pleaser to a fault. I think I have learned
throughout my life that my sense of humor people respond to.
Obviously it's entertained people on screen, but it also in person.
(02:27):
I see people smile and laugh, and it brings me
great joy to make people happy. So I do use
it as that. And the people pleasing thing is like,
not okay, I'm.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Aware of that.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I'm aware of everything. I just don't know how to
go to the next step. And I'm not everything. If
I was aware of everything, I wouldn't be here with you.
But how to like evolve past like Okay, I'm aware, now,
how do I take action? But I also I think
it's a way to not have to deal with my
feelings as well, and and my feelings are a hard thing.
(03:02):
I also joke with everyone, I'm like, I'm dead inside,
like I don't have feelings, and I'm like, duh, I
have feelings, like they're there. It's hard for me to
access my feelings though, Like you show me a movie
with like dogs and kids, and I'm like crying like
a baby. But you talk about like any feelings about
(03:22):
my life and I'm like, nope, nothing link slate.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
And so you have sort of a I mean, my
quick hypothesis is you have sort of like a intricate, intricate,
sort of exquisite, well oiled machine of like you know,
sort of diminishing and minimizing and avoiding and denying hard stuff.
And I imagine you came by that. Honestly, we aren't
so born with that. It comes out of some version
(03:50):
of overwhelm or trauma where the system kind of short circuits.
It's like too much, too vulnerable, too emotionally, uh, sort
of draining, and we come up young with a way
to get past that and through it and to not
feel assaulted and violated and undoing it. You bring up
something so important because oftentimes people have the insight but
(04:14):
don't really have a place to go from there. And
I often say, like, insight alone is not enough. I
can't have people walking around with like an understanding of
what is going on with them, but with an inability
to intervene and shift and make changes over time. I mean,
you can't get to one without the other. But one
alone does not lead to changes or sustainable changes, you know.
(04:36):
So I think I'm sure it's true that some culmination
of traum and experiences led you to find this way
and to develop a sense of like, oh, this is
how I get value. I people please and people laugh
at my jokes, and I'm now identified with this way
of being through the world, and in the absence of it,
I'm not like as valued and as oriented and grounded
(04:57):
and sort of stable and so shifting that requires you,
and this is the hard part and why people usually
end up saying like I don't know what to do,
but requires you to abandon that in a moment, you know,
to stay silent, to stay quiet, to get curious about
what you're feeling, inside, and even if you come up emptier,
(05:18):
even if you come up messy, you know that you
stay with it. The messy is where everything is. And
if we like won't sit next to our messy and
like make friends with it, so to speak, we stay
kind of swimming on the surface. And we all do
that to a certain extent because sitting extra a messy
is scary and overwhelming, but it really is the only
way to get to like the heart and meat of
(05:40):
our feelings, and otherwise we remain symptomatic.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah, that makes sense, It makes sense. But on the
other hand, what happens if you're in constant fight or
flight mode all the time? People are like, oh my gosh,
you know, have you been in therapy since, you know,
since the divorce, now your single mom, there must be
so much to talk And I'm like, honestly, I haven't
(06:05):
had a chance. And it's hard for people listen, if
you're not in somebody's shoes, if you're not behind the
closed doors every day, it's really hard to put yourself
in somebody else's shoes. We all look at social media
and it looks great out there. That's not what's really
going on. We're putting our best foot forward on social media.
What lies behind that is all the stuff that only
our key circle knows about if we let them in.
(06:27):
So when I say fighter flight, and it's hard for me.
I'm so conditioned in this lifetime to be labeled words
since birth, like you know, wealthy, entitled, Hollywood. You know,
it's just nepotism. It just goes on and on and
on that I'm very quick to say, like, oh, I'm
already wanting to say, you know, fight or flight, And
(06:49):
I'm like, but my situation's not as bad as somebody.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Else's and that's just me condition.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
And I know though that it's like it's very individual,
but I'm so used to getting such outwardly harsh responses
to my life no matter what. And I'm not saying
poor me here, I am defending myself again, But it's
just I feel like since my soon to be ex
husband and I separated, it's been fight or flight. It's
(07:16):
been constant with five kids, and you know, whether it's emotionally,
physically financially, we've just been going and there hasn't really
been that moment where it's like my soon to be
ex husband used to say, put the oxygen mask on first,
and I'm like, absolutely not. I'm understanding that better now,
(07:39):
but I just still am like, you know, the meantime,
I trying, but it's just when life keeps serving you things,
unexpected things daily on a daily basis, like you know, okay,
you know, you're like, oh, I got past that, and
then you have a plan all of a sudden boom
and it's dated. So it's hard for me to take
(08:04):
awareness to execution.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
There are a number of reality components that you're describing,
but I imagine they're intersecting with what we were talking
about before, which is that system of avoidance and denial
and minimization, right, and which is then there's that which
is quite complex. I mean, that's that's sort of a
lot of emotional residue to work through. So let me
say a couple of things to unpack, which is, divorce
(08:36):
is nothing short of a trauma. And I'm please I
get the opportunity to sort of say that out loud.
It's really important in my clinical work to conceptualize divorce
that way. It is a trauma, and all the requisite
things that go along with a trauma occur, and they
occur in different ways. Of different intensities for different people.
(08:56):
And this is whether or not the divorce is like
mutual and ambica or something else. It is a paradigm shifting,
soul altering, life changing set of events that mean reorienting
in every role you embody, as mom, if you have kids,
as a single person, as a professional. There's a sort
of redefining and reorienting that goes on that is nothing
(09:20):
short of traumatic. And so I am not surprised to
hear that you've experienced as many women going through divorce do.
Fighter flight system constantly activated. And the fighter flight system
is sort of like an asterisk is a thing. It's
a real thing, and it's in place from like all
those years ago when we had to be ready to
(09:40):
run away from like a bear or who is going
to attack us, and our bodies filled with like adrenaline
and cortisol, and our muscles are now ready to run
and our heart is ready to pump so we can
use our body the way that we need to. That's
what happens when fight or flight occurs, when we're having
an emotional response, and in the aftermath of trauma, it's
(10:02):
actually a false alarm because while you're going through something hard.
You're not literally in danger, so the emotional labor of
carrying around fight or flight systems over an extended period
of time is really oppressive. And I think that's what
you're kind of alluding to, And so your listeners might
sort of be like, well, what are you talking about.
(10:22):
I'm sure you can get to therapy, but that's really
what you're talking about is kind of an itatability to
move past this false alarm that's going on filling your
body with adrenalinine cortisol. It's hard to make it through
the regular goings on of the day with that occurring,
let alone to sort of mobilize resources to get to
a place that's going to be confrontative and vulnerable. So
(10:44):
I think that's one piece of it that I imagine
is going on for you, and that I observe going
on with almost every woman going through divorce, no matter
what kind of divorce it is. And then the second
piece I think is a version of like, Okay, yeah,
but still why aren't you there? But really, why aren't
you there? I think looking at the sort of cumulative fear,
(11:06):
it sounds like that has been curated over years for
you of like what does it actually mean to sit,
as you said in my mess, you know, to sit
in my vulnerability, to sit in my flaws, to sit
in the part of me that's like really deserving. Like
what does it mean to carve out that space for myself?
(11:27):
Is like a declaration of the soul. I mean, it's
not a small thing, you know, if you're going to
do it right, and so embodying that is a bigger
thing than just I'm going to make a phone call
and go to therapy. It's making a decision about yourself.
And I wanted to go back to what you said,
which was your ex husband soon to be x husband
said you got to put on your oxygen mask first,
(11:49):
and you said, absolutely not. And my question to you
is is why why is that your reaction.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Going back to everything you just said, I have feelings.
I got really emotional inside and teared up when you
said deserve me. It hit me really hard there it
needs I don't feel like I deserve anything. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Yeah, and that's my whole life there, I said it.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Stay with that. I imagine it intersects with what you
shared with us before, which is coming into your role
in life kind of involuntarily with the trappings around you.
I think pull for a sense of like I can't
need or want anything. I've been given all these things.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yeah, I grew up that way and that's it. Yeah,
I don't know how to get that back, you know.
And I read everybody's posts and my phone. Your phone
gets to know you, and it's like, which is really
weird sometimes because I'm not that constipated, but it's like
it pulls up things all the time and it's just
like empowering and and I'm like, I get it. I
(13:01):
want to be that girl, like I'm ready. And then
something insides like you don't deserve it. I'm like, oh,
like I've kept myself small for so many years because
I thought I didn't deserve it because of who my
dad was. And I was handed at nine o two
and oh, but I'm aware that while I was handed
(13:22):
at nine two and oh, I created that character. I
sustained that character, I embodied that character. I made that
character what it was. I'm aware of that, but I
still can't get back to Sorry, I'm going like all
the way back now, but it just it comes from
that and it's hard to change at fifty one years
old and I feel like I'm constantly climbing that hill
(13:47):
and I'm like almost there, and then something happens. And
I know everyone can relate to this on different levels,
but it's like, Okay, here I am made it again
on my own and booms, look back down that hill again.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
You know, it goes away.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
And also I'm in a business where things aren't consistent,
you know, it's not financially consistent or you know, is
it stable.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
And with five kids, I feel like I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I'm constantly letting them down because my life is not.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Stable.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Their lives are not stable. Yeah, the love's there. I
can give love and an abundance, but they're on this
roller coaster with me, unfortunately. And it's things I never
as a parent, financially things, you know. And work was
really stable for quite a long time, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
I had multiple shows and multiple.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Product lines and brands and just was a workhorse and
an empire. And that's when I had four of my kids,
and you know, so they were able to see a
different side. They were able to have certain life that
I provided for them through work, and then all of
(15:09):
a sudden, you know, things weren't stable, and you know,
life goes on, and so they've now you know, they're
privy to more than I think that I'm comfortable with
children being privy to just because we move as a
family unit now because we're just and I know I
shouldn't say fight or flight, but it's like we're going.
(15:30):
They're on this journey with me, and I can't any
longer keep things from them and be like everything's fine.
And also, I have children that are old enough that
read things online, and you know, they read the false stuff,
but they read the semi accurate stuff and they read
the true stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
So the requirement is to narrate it for them in
a way that's digestible and validates their experience. And I'll
say more about that moment, but I want to frame
it in this paradigm I see in my practice and
my work. I see adult clients right and in I
(16:11):
don't know, ten twelve years that I've been doing this,
the adult client that is doing the best and is
the most adaptive is a client that is clear about
the love and investment and commitment and guidance and support
from their parent or parents. Not necessarily the client who
(16:33):
hasn't had ups and downs in terms of their external stability.
This isn't to deny the reality of what your kiddos
are going through. If things are unpredictable on those fronts,
that's a real thing and it's going to have a
real impact. But think it's really important for you to
hold on to the intangible, kind of almost unnameable value
(16:58):
of what you like set as a throwaway, which is
love and abundance. So that's cool, it's not just cool.
It's centering, it's everything. It's orienting and owning that. Embodying
that to yourself and narrating that to your kids deliberately
is a really important part of moving through a crisis
(17:20):
or a version of trauma or difficulty that you could
say out loud, like you may have noticed, like things
are unpredictable, like week to week, we don't know what
we're able to purchase, and that is really hard. And
I'm sure that feels confusing and frustrating and upsetting. And
I'm here in front of you telling you I can't
(17:41):
fix it, and I'm validating our experience and I'm with
you through it even though I can't make it all
okay right now. But what I can do is like
unending bottomless love for you. Are teenagers and even little
kids going to turn around and be like, oh my God,
thank you so much. I feel so much better. Maybe
maybe not, But what we're doing is we're what I
(18:03):
call breadcrumbing. We're leaving them a message that they can
pick up the pieces of as they begin to conceptualize
and understand their life and their own story. And that
story is the story everyone wants. I see many, many,
many clients a week. All people want is to feel
like they're loved and wanted and invested in and cared about.
(18:24):
So make sure that you keep that as a grounding
truth as you move through this time. Don't be afraid
to go to the hard thing. Meaning if you know
a hard thing happened this week, a hard month occurred,
a hard six months occurred, don't be afraid to say
(18:47):
it out loud, don't deny it, don't dismiss it. Doesn't
have to be this Christmas is going to be hard,
but like last year's was good, Like you don't have
to make it okay. You can say I know this
is hard, I know it feels bad, and like I'm
here with you and til it feels just a little better,
that is parenting and connecting and like community during a
(19:08):
time of difficulty. So I think it's critical for you
to feel like nothing can take that part away from you. Nothing.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
I have a.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Question for you, what if love's not enough as it
relates to your children.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
I feel like in relationships sometimes you have to realize
in a relationship and a partnership that it falls apart
and sometimes love wasn't enough. Does that apply to everyone
in your life, even your children?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
I do and the answer is with children, love is enough, absolutely, unequivocally,
the answer is yes. I in my work that, as
I said, I've done for ten twelve years. I work
with parents and their kiddos and individuals, and it is
the core wound of every suffering being is experiencing imagining.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
A lack of love and value.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Almost everything can be traced back to that, and having,
particularly a parent's love, unwavering imperfect comes into different kind
of flavors and doses because we're humans. But that is
unwavering and narrated is just invaluable. It's a different question
(20:21):
as it relates to other relationships, which we can and
should talk about. But I think it's really important to
make that distinction. It is all kids want to know,
and when those kids become grown ups, it's part of
what makes their life more tenable and resources and interventions
(20:42):
when they face suffering and hard time more accessible. Is
knowing that at their core they're valued and love so
it is enough. And given what you've described so far
in our conversation, say, I think that's a really important
thing for you to orient yourself around daily. That doesn't
mean you don't acknowledge and narrate and take them through
the suffering that they're enduring, given whatever financial dress is
(21:06):
going on and whatever emotional hangovers they have as being
children of a divorce, right, I mean, there's a lot
going on for them. But the answer is yes, a relationship,
particularly a romantic one, but sometimes in a friendship. Sometimes
sadly with family, love isn't enough and the dysfunction and
toxicity requires separation so kurt is minimized or eliminated. Not
(21:32):
with kids, we stay in it.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
But also like being a single mom and they're with
me and their dad and I are super amicable and
you know, working through everything for the futures of separate families,
but the kids live with me. I'm the primary caretaker
and as a single mom providing for them, it's just
(21:55):
like there's times when I'm working and I'm hustling.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
In the last three months, I've.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Really been working my butt off, and I'm super grateful
for that work. But it's like it's been constant and
there were days. You know, my kids range from seventeen
to seven. The seventeen year old to sixteen year old,
a thirteen year old, a twelve year old, and a
seven year old. And to be honest, and she calls
(22:22):
herself this, My six year old, who is my eldest daughter,
has always said I'm the second mom, and she really is.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
And when I'm working.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
It's we don't always have the luxury of you know,
people have babysitters or nannies or housekeepers or things like that,
so it's we're just us. And I know that's probably
really hard for the public to understand, but it's true.
You know, it's all on me and the kids. And
when I'm working and I'm gone all day, you know,
it's it falls a lot on my six year old
(22:53):
to really oversee the family and take care and I
feel really guilty when I come home at the end
of the day, granted I could have been working a
fourteen to fifteen hour day. I come in and I
feel so you know, she's also a junior in high school,
she just got her learners permit. She is doing so
(23:15):
great and she has a full plate. And then I
feel like, here I am putting what is my quote
unquote in my mind, my job onto her, and it's
that feels bad inside. So, you know, during these last
three months when I've been working constantly, and I was
just out of town filming a movie for three weeks,
(23:38):
and I'm grateful I was able to have someone come
to stay with them during that, but it's still during
this three month period of work, work, work, I'm not
able to give them the individual attention on a daily
basis that I would like to. They're all very different individuals.
They need that. Perhaps they're used to that in the past.
So my I guess my fear is during this time,
(24:01):
last three months, and I know it's not that long,
I fear they feel somewhere deep down abandoned.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yes, And I feel super guilty about that.