May 14, 2020 • 30 mins
On this post-season bonus episode, John Muhammad's daughters Salena and Taalibah sit down for an intimate interview with Tony Harris. They'll share memories of their father, recall learning he was the DC Sniper, and discuss how they coped using music.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
A lot of times when you hear about our story,
you don't really get what we went through or how
we were impacted by it. A lot of things that
were shown on TV was the negative, right because the
negative is definitely what sells, you know. But me and
my sister and my brother, there were no complaints with
our childhood. We had the best time of our lives.
(00:23):
When we lived in Washington State with our parents. We
got everything that we wanted. We were never without um stability,
emotional stability. We we have friends, we have family night.
My my mom. She would record so much home videos.
Even if we don't even remember, we have videos where
(00:45):
it shows that we had a great bond with each
other and that we were loved, We were comforted. He
was like great dad, goofy. There were silly times, and
even in the silly times, there was still loving it
and hope you know everything, beautiful lady An. I'm Tony
(01:09):
Harris on this bonus episode of Monster d C Sniper
my conversation with Selena and Taliba, the daughters of John
and Mildria Mohammed. Selena and Taliba both live in Maryland
outside d C. I spoke with him over zoom I
want to take a half a step back, and I'm
going to have each of you introduce yourself, right, I
(01:30):
want you to tell me your name, and then just
describe yourself and your own words. I'm Taliva. I would
say that I'm bubbily, I'm goofy, but also enjoy being
very stubborn and also um lively. I am Selena, and
I am very direct. What you see is what you get.
(01:53):
I am the type of person that does not like
to judge the other person, and it's very open to
helping anybody that I can. Selena and Taliba, along with
their older brother, John Jr. Were born in the early
nineties while their father was still serving in the army.
Selena is the middle child. She's now eight, Taliba is six.
(02:16):
They spent most of their early childhood in Washington State.
So I've got two kids that I I love, you know,
to the ends of the earth. And you know I'm
not with their mom, who is an amazing woman. Right.
I want to understand from your perspective how you would
(02:39):
describe life in the Williams slash Mohammed household growing up. Oh,
it was a ball. We had the time of our
lives when we were young. I mean like sight seeing
the carnival Um. It was great. Yeah. We also with
(03:00):
our neighborhood friends too. Don't let us snow we're having
snow fights or having we're building snowman. It was he was.
He was everything that you could picture a father to
be with. What are dad was to us. He was
not some monster. He was not anything that the media portrays.
(03:21):
He couldn't feel the load that he had for his
children when you saw him. Even when he was disciplining us,
it wasn't it wasn't negative towards uh, like the next
week or so like. He would counter it with positivity
and fun and just a lesson to be learned. They
never suspected anything was wrong in March of two thousand,
(03:43):
when John picked them up from their elementary school, drove
them to the airport and flew them to Antigua. Selena
was ten and Taliba was eight. They still don't feel
comfortable speaking publicly about this period of their life, about
what happened in Antigua or their relationship with Lee Boyd Malvo,
But in August two thousand one, authorities found them living
(04:06):
with their father and a homeless shelter in Bellingham, Washington.
They were then reunited with their mother, Mildred, who brought
them to Maryland, where they once again started a new life.
Despite this instability in their childhood, Selena and Taliba say
that most of the memories they had of their father
were positive. Mildred had sheltered them from John's frightening behaviors,
(04:30):
and they were too young to realize how unusual their
situation was. But the turbulence wasn't over. A little over
a year later, when Taliba was ten and Selena was twelve,
the d C sniper attacks began in Maryland. I remember
a time where I was walking home from school and
I was looking for the white box jut and I
(04:53):
was looking around and I just remember just booking it.
I just remember just taking off ning straight to home
because that scared t acting was also in us too,
and their lives were flipped upside down again when their
father and Lee Boyd Melville were arrested and named the
DC Snipers. When we found out that our dad was
(05:14):
the one that was gonna be named the sniper, and
we cried from the time FBI knock on our door
and told us to the time that they showed it
on the news. We were moving that entire time, like hours.
We were We packed stuff, we got in a car,
we got driven to a hotel. We had to figure
everything out. Taliba and Selena were shocked by their father's arrest,
(05:36):
but before they could even process the situation, their family
was thrust into the spotlight. We had to get put
out of school. Media was starting to show up at
our middle school and we couldn't get in the building.
So and just and just for our our safety, um,
and that time, thankfully, our principal at the time completely
(05:57):
understood and my mom, Um, I'm not too sure the interaction,
but they were it was a mutual understanding, quick understanding
of just taking us out. Eventually, reporters stopped showing up
to their middle school and the girls returned and trying
to get back to some sense of normalcy. Life at
that age can be challenging at the best of times,
(06:17):
let alone with your father as public enemy number one.
With our interactions in school during the time, we've lost
a lot of friends. There was a lot of um
speculations that we were gonna do what he did, or
we're going to finish the job, to finish the job,
or or um or we're gonna be a duo at it,
or you know, just extremely negative feedback that that we
(06:40):
don't need to hear at the end of the day.
But they didn't care because, you know, children will be
children and we were just in that age group. So
their mother, Mildred, said, she struggled to find a therapist
they could afford who wasn't just trying to cash in
on the publicity and sell the children's story to the press.
So Mildred went to the library and picked up a
(07:01):
book on counseling. She started helping the children herself. Selena
and to Leiva credit their mother with helping to get
them through that rough patch. One of her main tools
in her life is optimism, and that's what really helped
us in our healing. The fact that there is always
and no matter what type of negativity that comes up,
(07:22):
there's always a positive aspect that you're not thinking about,
that you're not focusing your mind on, and the sooner
you do, the better off you'll be serious no way
around that. So she was pivotal for our personal growth,
our emotional stability, our spiritual development. My mom is amazing
(07:45):
a lot of that appreciation for our mom is for
her pushing us to make sure that we don't get
swallowed up by the media, by negative energy that people
tell us, by other things that happened throughout our life
that could potentially be that last thing that an average
(08:07):
person would need to go through to say, you know what,
I'm over this life, like I'm just not gonna do
it anymore. We didn't have that opportunity, and because we
didn't have that opportunity, we only see up. We don't
see down, we don't see the past. We see up,
like how far can we go? Regardless of our situation,
(08:29):
Because regardless of the things that me, my sister, and
my brother have been through, there are a lot of
people out here who have gone through something much worse
or much less, and it is their choice, and it
is our choice to decide whether we want to let
this specific situation dictate and outline the rest of our life,
(08:50):
or do we want to address the situation, conquer all
of the feelings that we have, and develop that and
restructure that into doing something positive for our life, And
we choose positivity always. Have you thought about the question
of why you two clearly strong, clearly well spoken women.
(09:13):
Have you given any thought to why you too, as sisters,
as individuals have been placed in this story. Hm Um.
We are God fearing women period, and there is nothing
(09:36):
that we cannot handle or anything that is too big
for our lives. If we were not supposed to be
in the place that we were put in, God would
have never put us there, And it is that simple.
He would have never given our family the opportunity to
(09:57):
show him that we can come out of is stronger
than the way that we went in. So it was
not by coincidence. It was already written. We just didn't
know it. It was already written. All of our lives
are already written the way that they're supposed to be.
There is no questioning God. We've never questioned him before
(10:17):
and we're not going to start now that there There
is no why us, Why did you put us in
this situation? Because you have to understand that it's beyond us.
It is it's always beyond us. God saw us fit
to go through what he wanted us to go through,
to be better people, right to be stronger vessels, to
be better vessels, So why not use us? What are
(10:38):
we here for in the first place? If it's not
to be used by God. All right, I get all
of that, but there is no denying that you went
through some difficult days. And it feels to me that
in the moments that you're able to really communicate with
God higher power. One of the ways we generally do
(10:59):
that is we go through a really difficult patch and
we say something along the lines of God, I really
need you now. And I wonder about a day, a
moment that you think about in this journey that represents
a really difficult day, when you maybe say to God,
thank you for getting me through that. I would say
(11:20):
that those definitely do pop up in our heads, and
it will be wrong for me to say that they don't.
The night of the execution that pops up in my
head periodically and thinking on my future self, how he
he won't be walking me down the aisle, and how
he wasn't going to be able to see my prom dress,
(11:42):
how he wasn't a part of the goodbye team when
I went away to college. Those times pop up for
me periodically, so I am I am going to have
negative days where I'm just like Nope, I don't want
to talk to nobody, and and those those definitely do exist. Example,
his birthday or my birthday. As Selena and Taliba grew up,
(12:06):
they struggled and still struggled to reconcile the happy memories
of their father from childhood with the horrific crimes he committed.
Unlike their mother, Mildred, who was an adult at the
time and who had seen the start of John's descent,
Selena and Taliba had been separated from their father during
the period of childhood when most of us still idealize
(12:28):
our parents. So when they learned their father was the
d C Sniper, they were completely blindsided. When you're coming
from a position of being a child, right, when you're
coming from a position of being nine years old, and
all you've known is my dad adds this type of
way because I'm a child, that when you see him
on TV, it's like, well, my that's that's I don't
(12:52):
know what they're talking about, because my dad was consistent,
consistent in system of right and was doing all of
the things that he was supposed to be doing. They
don't try to justify or excuse their father's crimes, but
they do chafe against what they consider inaccurate portrayals of
their father in the media. We don't resent our father.
(13:13):
The way that he was portrayed on the news is
not the man that we grew up with, and for
us to resent him would mean that we would dismiss
our childhood with him, and that's not something that we're
willing to do or something that we want to do.
You know, there is a there is a media representation
(13:35):
of your your family story, right what is the narrative
first of all? And then for you too, what's the
most egregious part of that narrative? So I believe that
the narrative right now is the fact that he was
a monster, the fact that he didn't have a loving life.
(13:56):
You later, he didn't have any motive. He was just
shooting people. He just went crazy. It has nothing to
do with anything like that. My dad was smart and
the actions that he took. He knew what the outcomes
were going to be. Now, that does not necessarily say
that he is a monster, because he's not. These characteristics
(14:19):
that people have labeled my father to be are from
the outside looking in and not actually knowing who my
dad was and actually knowing the type of person that
he was. Selena's words echo to sentiment we heard from
criminologist Anthony Meoli that as a society, we want to
(14:41):
call these killers monsters. We want to separate them from
the rest of humanity. Just labeled them it's purely evil,
but the truth is often more complicated. Selena and Taliba
say that although their father was capable of these attacks,
capable of terrorizing their mother, he was also capable of
(15:01):
being a loving father. We want to be able to
shift the narrative to where we can express that our
dad wasn't amazing, that him as a man individually is
different than who we experienced. You know how in a
when you're going through a hard relationship with somebody or
a significant other and it's a it's just a bad time,
(15:25):
and all that you could think about is the bad,
how they're hurting me, why did they yell in a
certain way, or they didn't have to hang up like that? Right?
And then when all that is done, when you have
broken up or when you've separated, all you can think
about is the good. And I feel that is where
our thought process is not necessarily saying that we think
(15:47):
about the bad, but they're still good balance that we
can counter that with, because of our childhood, because of
our own experiences that we've had with him, So it
will be wrong to say that we don't miss him,
because we miss him so much. But at the same time,
we accept why he isn't here, we accept where we
(16:08):
are in that time, and it's a blessing that we
are so close as a family. My mom also instilled
in us to not feel like we are obligated to
give an apology for his actions, because his actions are
his actions. Um at the same time, we never stop
(16:29):
praying for the victims and the survivors and the families.
We have full empathy for everything that that has taken
place in that time, and we're not insensitive as far
as what their journey is now even after. But at
the same time, taking ownership that would not be appropriate.
What we can say that we will continue to pray
(16:51):
for the victims of the survivors and that they have
a special place in our hearts. For sure, Selena and
(17:12):
Taliba feel that they have been portrayed inaccurately by the
media as well, with coverage forgetting how young they were
when all this happened, or treating them like irreparably damaged
goods about of reshaping our narrative is to redefine who
his children was. There were so many unrealistic mindsets about
(17:33):
how we were coping through it, and by taking a
step back and understanding the time that it happened, and
then matching the ages and the mentality mentality in that
era and then saying, oh, okay, well, they were under
ten years old, so I kind of don't really know
(17:54):
a lot of what happened. So it's important that that's spoken,
that that that we were youth and at the same time,
my mom didn't shield anything away from us because she
wanted us to live a life of truth. We want
to shift that we are empowered, that were loved, that
we are stable, that we are okay, and that not
(18:17):
only are we okay, but we work hard. We don't
use that situation as an excuse for progression. We choose
to to not to make this the crutch for us
to not be better women. We don't use it for
anything outside of explaining our life story. And also it
(18:38):
helps us to be inspired musically. Throughout the whole ordeal,
Selena and Taliba found solace in music, listening to it,
performing it, even writing their own songs. What's helped us
is talking it out, writing it out, singing it out,
looking up songs that lyrically tie into those struggles. Those
(19:00):
songs and those lyrics help for our outlet. Music really
has helped us. When no human can say words, chords
can really do it, or instrument can really do it,
or Kenny G can really do it. You know, you
don't have to be verbally, can be non vocal. But
(19:23):
we wanted to change the narrative for ourselves musically. So
now let me ask this question. Tell me why you
wrote scramble. Did you write this or did I write this?
I wrote scramble. Make mistakes. I'm ben't making two. It's
a part of the game. But who's ready to lose web?
(19:46):
We're we're moving what we're doing. We gotta get back
to the first stage. But thanks for reading on the
first page. Well we're going, Hi, we're moving what we're doing.
(20:10):
When you push me back, I can't ignore. I'll be
relationship is on the floor. Poo's will then to pick
it up. I'm tooling. Thanks for you, so I take
care of you. Nothing never turn miss me with that
(20:32):
bullshit about you called your side one ain't stupid. I'm
taking out my gun. Okay, So we have this thing
where Talibo will start us all and then like a
week later she'll call me and she'll say, can you
help me write the second birse? So I'm like, well,
(20:55):
what did you have in the first place? And so
she'll sing it and I'm like, all right, give me
like five minutes figure nothing out. Where my head was.
I was in a relationship and it was very confusing
as far as his intentions and where I wanted it
to go, and I just was fed up. So I
got those lyrics out. I journal. I wanted to be
(21:15):
able to confront those emotions head on. I also think
that the song gives the listener of the opportunity to
not be afraid to ask those questions where are we going?
What are we doing? Those There are questions that a
lot of people shy away from because they don't want
to hear the answer, And so Scramble was made for
the listener to put your pants on, evaluate your situation
(21:39):
and actually questions, because if you don't, then you're gonna
be step in our relationship where you're not happy. And
this life you only get to live at once, and
you don't want to waste five, ten, fifteen, years of
your life in a marriage, in a relationship is not healthy,
you know. So that's how Scramble came to the world.
(22:01):
What we do, We gotta get back to the first
but the first path. But Scramble has darker undertones as well,
(22:26):
like its reference to an affair and getting a gun.
So the verse escalated from the observation to me being
completely fed up. So now I'm violent like the air
level their level. But that's real because in real relationships,
in those defining moments, in those relationships, your mind can
get there, your mind can scramble in that way. It's
(22:49):
easy to imagine how their family story has influenced the
song's themes, with its lyrics about how love can scramble
our brain and even make us violent, and about the
fear of getting stuck in an unhappy and unhealthy relationship
for years. Tell me about when you had to decide
how much of your journey together you were willing to
(23:11):
share in your music. It's a very good question for
me and my sister. The things that we've been through
and the things that we've gone through have shaped the
way that we see the world. But we are still
picking and choosing what we want to put into our music.
It's a lot of emotions and a lot of time
and a lot of thinking that we put into our
(23:34):
songwriting when it comes to the things that we've been through.
When did this desire to play to sing? When did
music become a part of your life? It became a
part of our lives when we were little, um, when
like six seven, mom heard something in us and we
always found it to be a hobby. But she's like,
not a hobby. So she just plugged us in two
(23:58):
choirs and then the choir directors were like, they can
take this seriously. Then plugged us into perform at art schools.
That's where we both went, and then just transitioned from
there to gaining scholarships to take it to college, so
we have degrees and voice performance. You mentioned that your
(24:18):
mom at some point said it's not hobby, right, it's
a thing, It's not hobby. So I guess what does
that say about your mom? What kind of a person
is your mom? How do you destroy her? I wish
folks could see the video right now, and we're recording
(24:40):
as we're a podcast, but I wish they could see
your faces and how broad these smiles are. To the beast,
that beautiful stallion spirit. She's a beast. She she goes
above and beyond for her children, which brings tears to
my eyes. But we're just gonna We're gonna keep pushing
(25:01):
through my mom um. My mom is amazing and and
she is a role model to how I want to
be as a woman and a mother. She has turned
out so many opportunities. She's she's made extra time to
where that we are all individually okay, and then collectively.
(25:23):
She's a one. She's never stopped. She's just never stopped.
She never stopped. So it's it's a blessing. It's a
blessing every single day that we still have her and
that we can embrace her. Now in their late twenties,
(25:53):
Selena and Taliba have had some time to look back
and reflect on their experience. Although this is a part
of our story, this is not our story, and it's
important that there are other purposes, there are other stories
that we will be a part of. This was just
one that started off the endless of the stories that
(26:13):
are going to come in the future, So it's imperative
that we keep pushing forward and reflect of course too,
because there was so much going on while we were
still in school, while we were still trying to establish
friendships and maintain our grades at the same time, it
was a lot trusting in the unknown. It's really hard.
(26:34):
And UM, in that time, it was a lot of confusion.
It was a lot of tension and anxiety. But I
would tell my younger self to not be afraid of
where my life is going to go. This is not
the end, this is only the beginning. This is only
um what's going to make us stronger. And also UM,
(26:57):
I would tell my younger self to lean all my
sister a little more before college. We were we were
at differences, so I would say Selena her more. Like
many siblings, the two sisters fought as children, but discovered
a close bond later in life. In their case, when
they were both going to college in Cleveland. I was
(27:19):
fortunate enough to have my sister thirty minutes away from me,
and I was going through so much and just trying
to figure out what am I doing and how how
can I operate in the city alone. And I was
crying and being my dramatic self as I am. And
(27:39):
she's very compassionate, and that's one thing that I really
love about our sisterhood, specifically Selena is because I can
be so in my head, especially in that time where
I didn't know what I was doing, and she would
know when it's time to give me tough love, and
she would know when it's time for me to just vent,
and she doesn't have to say anything because I'm that dramatic,
(28:02):
and she just knows those different switches for when it's
time to be a sister, when it's time to be
a friend, when it's time to be a music partner,
when it's time to be my second mom, especially with
me being the youngest, so that that that also is
a very important element and sister YouTube your sisterhood. I
(28:29):
can't even imagine the levels at which you connect as
sisters who have shared an incomprehensible journey together. I really
appreciate you respecting our boundaries and really appreciating where we
are now and taking that time and giving us this
(28:51):
platform to to just have a conversation about it and
to give us the opportunity to just speak the way
that we want to with freedom, with freedom, and even
if we don't feel like talking about something that you
guys don't shun us, right that it's like, Okay, it's fine,
we do move on. That's something that a lot of
(29:14):
people that record shows don't have or don't give UM
because because they always have it they do. It's a
if they give it or not. And so we want
to take this time out to say thank you guys
for UM including us in this special and for giving
us this platform to speak. That's it for this bonus episode.
(29:37):
I wanted to text Mildred immediately after the interview to
tell her how much I enjoyed my conversation with her daughters,
but I gave myself a data process everything i'd heard.
Taliba and Selena are both sides of the Mildred Mohammed coin.
Taliba reflects Mildred's easy smile and sense of humor. Selena
reflects Mildred's toughness and sheer strang Together, these two women
(30:02):
have a lot to say about overcoming life's difficulties, and
through their music, they demonstrate the importance of finding a
way to express yourself and exactly the way you want
to do it. Judgment be damned. When I finally texted Mildred,
I wrote, Wow, your girls are amazing. She responded with yes,
(30:25):
they are Thank you. If you'd like to hear more
of Selena and Taliba's music, search for two music that's
t O and then music. The songs Scramble that we
played in this episode is from their two thousand eighteen
album To Who, Thanks for listening.
A lot of times when you hear about our story,
you don't really get what we went through or how
we were impacted by it. A lot of things that
were shown on TV was the negative, right because the
negative is definitely what sells, you know. But me and
my sister and my brother, there were no complaints with
our childhood. We had the best time of our lives.
(00:23):
When we lived in Washington State with our parents. We
got everything that we wanted. We were never without um stability,
emotional stability. We we have friends, we have family night.
My my mom. She would record so much home videos.
Even if we don't even remember, we have videos where
(00:45):
it shows that we had a great bond with each
other and that we were loved, We were comforted. He
was like great dad, goofy. There were silly times, and
even in the silly times, there was still loving it
and hope you know everything, beautiful lady An. I'm Tony
(01:09):
Harris on this bonus episode of Monster d C Sniper
my conversation with Selena and Taliba, the daughters of John
and Mildria Mohammed. Selena and Taliba both live in Maryland
outside d C. I spoke with him over zoom I
want to take a half a step back, and I'm
going to have each of you introduce yourself, right, I
(01:30):
want you to tell me your name, and then just
describe yourself and your own words. I'm Taliva. I would
say that I'm bubbily, I'm goofy, but also enjoy being
very stubborn and also um lively. I am Selena, and
I am very direct. What you see is what you get.
(01:53):
I am the type of person that does not like
to judge the other person, and it's very open to
helping anybody that I can. Selena and Taliba, along with
their older brother, John Jr. Were born in the early
nineties while their father was still serving in the army.
Selena is the middle child. She's now eight, Taliba is six.
(02:16):
They spent most of their early childhood in Washington State.
So I've got two kids that I I love, you know,
to the ends of the earth. And you know I'm
not with their mom, who is an amazing woman. Right.
I want to understand from your perspective how you would
(02:39):
describe life in the Williams slash Mohammed household growing up. Oh,
it was a ball. We had the time of our
lives when we were young. I mean like sight seeing
the carnival Um. It was great. Yeah. We also with
(03:00):
our neighborhood friends too. Don't let us snow we're having
snow fights or having we're building snowman. It was he was.
He was everything that you could picture a father to
be with. What are dad was to us. He was
not some monster. He was not anything that the media portrays.
(03:21):
He couldn't feel the load that he had for his
children when you saw him. Even when he was disciplining us,
it wasn't it wasn't negative towards uh, like the next
week or so like. He would counter it with positivity
and fun and just a lesson to be learned. They
never suspected anything was wrong in March of two thousand,
(03:43):
when John picked them up from their elementary school, drove
them to the airport and flew them to Antigua. Selena
was ten and Taliba was eight. They still don't feel
comfortable speaking publicly about this period of their life, about
what happened in Antigua or their relationship with Lee Boyd Malvo,
But in August two thousand one, authorities found them living
(04:06):
with their father and a homeless shelter in Bellingham, Washington.
They were then reunited with their mother, Mildred, who brought
them to Maryland, where they once again started a new life.
Despite this instability in their childhood, Selena and Taliba say
that most of the memories they had of their father
were positive. Mildred had sheltered them from John's frightening behaviors,
(04:30):
and they were too young to realize how unusual their
situation was. But the turbulence wasn't over. A little over
a year later, when Taliba was ten and Selena was twelve,
the d C sniper attacks began in Maryland. I remember
a time where I was walking home from school and
I was looking for the white box jut and I
(04:53):
was looking around and I just remember just booking it.
I just remember just taking off ning straight to home
because that scared t acting was also in us too,
and their lives were flipped upside down again when their
father and Lee Boyd Melville were arrested and named the
DC Snipers. When we found out that our dad was
(05:14):
the one that was gonna be named the sniper, and
we cried from the time FBI knock on our door
and told us to the time that they showed it
on the news. We were moving that entire time, like hours.
We were We packed stuff, we got in a car,
we got driven to a hotel. We had to figure
everything out. Taliba and Selena were shocked by their father's arrest,
(05:36):
but before they could even process the situation, their family
was thrust into the spotlight. We had to get put
out of school. Media was starting to show up at
our middle school and we couldn't get in the building.
So and just and just for our our safety, um,
and that time, thankfully, our principal at the time completely
(05:57):
understood and my mom, Um, I'm not too sure the interaction,
but they were it was a mutual understanding, quick understanding
of just taking us out. Eventually, reporters stopped showing up
to their middle school and the girls returned and trying
to get back to some sense of normalcy. Life at
that age can be challenging at the best of times,
(06:17):
let alone with your father as public enemy number one.
With our interactions in school during the time, we've lost
a lot of friends. There was a lot of um
speculations that we were gonna do what he did, or
we're going to finish the job, to finish the job,
or or um or we're gonna be a duo at it,
or you know, just extremely negative feedback that that we
(06:40):
don't need to hear at the end of the day.
But they didn't care because, you know, children will be
children and we were just in that age group. So
their mother, Mildred, said, she struggled to find a therapist
they could afford who wasn't just trying to cash in
on the publicity and sell the children's story to the press.
So Mildred went to the library and picked up a
(07:01):
book on counseling. She started helping the children herself. Selena
and to Leiva credit their mother with helping to get
them through that rough patch. One of her main tools
in her life is optimism, and that's what really helped
us in our healing. The fact that there is always
and no matter what type of negativity that comes up,
(07:22):
there's always a positive aspect that you're not thinking about,
that you're not focusing your mind on, and the sooner
you do, the better off you'll be serious no way
around that. So she was pivotal for our personal growth,
our emotional stability, our spiritual development. My mom is amazing
(07:45):
a lot of that appreciation for our mom is for
her pushing us to make sure that we don't get
swallowed up by the media, by negative energy that people
tell us, by other things that happened throughout our life
that could potentially be that last thing that an average
(08:07):
person would need to go through to say, you know what,
I'm over this life, like I'm just not gonna do
it anymore. We didn't have that opportunity, and because we
didn't have that opportunity, we only see up. We don't
see down, we don't see the past. We see up,
like how far can we go? Regardless of our situation,
(08:29):
Because regardless of the things that me, my sister, and
my brother have been through, there are a lot of
people out here who have gone through something much worse
or much less, and it is their choice, and it
is our choice to decide whether we want to let
this specific situation dictate and outline the rest of our life,
(08:50):
or do we want to address the situation, conquer all
of the feelings that we have, and develop that and
restructure that into doing something positive for our life, And
we choose positivity always. Have you thought about the question
of why you two clearly strong, clearly well spoken women.
(09:13):
Have you given any thought to why you too, as sisters,
as individuals have been placed in this story. Hm Um.
We are God fearing women period, and there is nothing
(09:36):
that we cannot handle or anything that is too big
for our lives. If we were not supposed to be
in the place that we were put in, God would
have never put us there, And it is that simple.
He would have never given our family the opportunity to
(09:57):
show him that we can come out of is stronger
than the way that we went in. So it was
not by coincidence. It was already written. We just didn't
know it. It was already written. All of our lives
are already written the way that they're supposed to be.
There is no questioning God. We've never questioned him before
(10:17):
and we're not going to start now that there There
is no why us, Why did you put us in
this situation? Because you have to understand that it's beyond us.
It is it's always beyond us. God saw us fit
to go through what he wanted us to go through,
to be better people, right to be stronger vessels, to
be better vessels, So why not use us? What are
(10:38):
we here for in the first place? If it's not
to be used by God. All right, I get all
of that, but there is no denying that you went
through some difficult days. And it feels to me that
in the moments that you're able to really communicate with
God higher power. One of the ways we generally do
(10:59):
that is we go through a really difficult patch and
we say something along the lines of God, I really
need you now. And I wonder about a day, a
moment that you think about in this journey that represents
a really difficult day, when you maybe say to God,
thank you for getting me through that. I would say
(11:20):
that those definitely do pop up in our heads, and
it will be wrong for me to say that they don't.
The night of the execution that pops up in my
head periodically and thinking on my future self, how he
he won't be walking me down the aisle, and how
he wasn't going to be able to see my prom dress,
(11:42):
how he wasn't a part of the goodbye team when
I went away to college. Those times pop up for
me periodically, so I am I am going to have
negative days where I'm just like Nope, I don't want
to talk to nobody, and and those those definitely do exist. Example,
his birthday or my birthday. As Selena and Taliba grew up,
(12:06):
they struggled and still struggled to reconcile the happy memories
of their father from childhood with the horrific crimes he committed.
Unlike their mother, Mildred, who was an adult at the
time and who had seen the start of John's descent,
Selena and Taliba had been separated from their father during
the period of childhood when most of us still idealize
(12:28):
our parents. So when they learned their father was the
d C Sniper, they were completely blindsided. When you're coming
from a position of being a child, right, when you're
coming from a position of being nine years old, and
all you've known is my dad adds this type of
way because I'm a child, that when you see him
on TV, it's like, well, my that's that's I don't
(12:52):
know what they're talking about, because my dad was consistent,
consistent in system of right and was doing all of
the things that he was supposed to be doing. They
don't try to justify or excuse their father's crimes, but
they do chafe against what they consider inaccurate portrayals of
their father in the media. We don't resent our father.
(13:13):
The way that he was portrayed on the news is
not the man that we grew up with, and for
us to resent him would mean that we would dismiss
our childhood with him, and that's not something that we're
willing to do or something that we want to do.
You know, there is a there is a media representation
(13:35):
of your your family story, right what is the narrative
first of all? And then for you too, what's the
most egregious part of that narrative? So I believe that
the narrative right now is the fact that he was
a monster, the fact that he didn't have a loving life.
(13:56):
You later, he didn't have any motive. He was just
shooting people. He just went crazy. It has nothing to
do with anything like that. My dad was smart and
the actions that he took. He knew what the outcomes
were going to be. Now, that does not necessarily say
that he is a monster, because he's not. These characteristics
(14:19):
that people have labeled my father to be are from
the outside looking in and not actually knowing who my
dad was and actually knowing the type of person that
he was. Selena's words echo to sentiment we heard from
criminologist Anthony Meoli that as a society, we want to
(14:41):
call these killers monsters. We want to separate them from
the rest of humanity. Just labeled them it's purely evil,
but the truth is often more complicated. Selena and Taliba
say that although their father was capable of these attacks,
capable of terrorizing their mother, he was also capable of
(15:01):
being a loving father. We want to be able to
shift the narrative to where we can express that our
dad wasn't amazing, that him as a man individually is
different than who we experienced. You know how in a
when you're going through a hard relationship with somebody or
a significant other and it's a it's just a bad time,
(15:25):
and all that you could think about is the bad,
how they're hurting me, why did they yell in a
certain way, or they didn't have to hang up like that? Right?
And then when all that is done, when you have
broken up or when you've separated, all you can think
about is the good. And I feel that is where
our thought process is not necessarily saying that we think
(15:47):
about the bad, but they're still good balance that we
can counter that with, because of our childhood, because of
our own experiences that we've had with him, So it
will be wrong to say that we don't miss him,
because we miss him so much. But at the same time,
we accept why he isn't here, we accept where we
(16:08):
are in that time, and it's a blessing that we
are so close as a family. My mom also instilled
in us to not feel like we are obligated to
give an apology for his actions, because his actions are
his actions. Um at the same time, we never stop
(16:29):
praying for the victims and the survivors and the families.
We have full empathy for everything that that has taken
place in that time, and we're not insensitive as far
as what their journey is now even after. But at
the same time, taking ownership that would not be appropriate.
What we can say that we will continue to pray
(16:51):
for the victims of the survivors and that they have
a special place in our hearts. For sure, Selena and
(17:12):
Taliba feel that they have been portrayed inaccurately by the
media as well, with coverage forgetting how young they were
when all this happened, or treating them like irreparably damaged
goods about of reshaping our narrative is to redefine who
his children was. There were so many unrealistic mindsets about
(17:33):
how we were coping through it, and by taking a
step back and understanding the time that it happened, and
then matching the ages and the mentality mentality in that
era and then saying, oh, okay, well, they were under
ten years old, so I kind of don't really know
(17:54):
a lot of what happened. So it's important that that's spoken,
that that that we were youth and at the same time,
my mom didn't shield anything away from us because she
wanted us to live a life of truth. We want
to shift that we are empowered, that were loved, that
we are stable, that we are okay, and that not
(18:17):
only are we okay, but we work hard. We don't
use that situation as an excuse for progression. We choose
to to not to make this the crutch for us
to not be better women. We don't use it for
anything outside of explaining our life story. And also it
(18:38):
helps us to be inspired musically. Throughout the whole ordeal,
Selena and Taliba found solace in music, listening to it,
performing it, even writing their own songs. What's helped us
is talking it out, writing it out, singing it out,
looking up songs that lyrically tie into those struggles. Those
(19:00):
songs and those lyrics help for our outlet. Music really
has helped us. When no human can say words, chords
can really do it, or instrument can really do it,
or Kenny G can really do it. You know, you
don't have to be verbally, can be non vocal. But
(19:23):
we wanted to change the narrative for ourselves musically. So
now let me ask this question. Tell me why you
wrote scramble. Did you write this or did I write this?
I wrote scramble. Make mistakes. I'm ben't making two. It's
a part of the game. But who's ready to lose web?
(19:46):
We're we're moving what we're doing. We gotta get back
to the first stage. But thanks for reading on the
first page. Well we're going, Hi, we're moving what we're doing.
(20:10):
When you push me back, I can't ignore. I'll be
relationship is on the floor. Poo's will then to pick
it up. I'm tooling. Thanks for you, so I take
care of you. Nothing never turn miss me with that
(20:32):
bullshit about you called your side one ain't stupid. I'm
taking out my gun. Okay, So we have this thing
where Talibo will start us all and then like a
week later she'll call me and she'll say, can you
help me write the second birse? So I'm like, well,
(20:55):
what did you have in the first place? And so
she'll sing it and I'm like, all right, give me
like five minutes figure nothing out. Where my head was.
I was in a relationship and it was very confusing
as far as his intentions and where I wanted it
to go, and I just was fed up. So I
got those lyrics out. I journal. I wanted to be
(21:15):
able to confront those emotions head on. I also think
that the song gives the listener of the opportunity to
not be afraid to ask those questions where are we going?
What are we doing? Those There are questions that a
lot of people shy away from because they don't want
to hear the answer, And so Scramble was made for
the listener to put your pants on, evaluate your situation
(21:39):
and actually questions, because if you don't, then you're gonna
be step in our relationship where you're not happy. And
this life you only get to live at once, and
you don't want to waste five, ten, fifteen, years of
your life in a marriage, in a relationship is not healthy,
you know. So that's how Scramble came to the world.
(22:01):
What we do, We gotta get back to the first
but the first path. But Scramble has darker undertones as well,
(22:26):
like its reference to an affair and getting a gun.
So the verse escalated from the observation to me being
completely fed up. So now I'm violent like the air
level their level. But that's real because in real relationships,
in those defining moments, in those relationships, your mind can
get there, your mind can scramble in that way. It's
(22:49):
easy to imagine how their family story has influenced the
song's themes, with its lyrics about how love can scramble
our brain and even make us violent, and about the
fear of getting stuck in an unhappy and unhealthy relationship
for years. Tell me about when you had to decide
how much of your journey together you were willing to
(23:11):
share in your music. It's a very good question for
me and my sister. The things that we've been through
and the things that we've gone through have shaped the
way that we see the world. But we are still
picking and choosing what we want to put into our music.
It's a lot of emotions and a lot of time
and a lot of thinking that we put into our
(23:34):
songwriting when it comes to the things that we've been through.
When did this desire to play to sing? When did
music become a part of your life? It became a
part of our lives when we were little, um, when
like six seven, mom heard something in us and we
always found it to be a hobby. But she's like,
not a hobby. So she just plugged us in two
(23:58):
choirs and then the choir directors were like, they can
take this seriously. Then plugged us into perform at art schools.
That's where we both went, and then just transitioned from
there to gaining scholarships to take it to college, so
we have degrees and voice performance. You mentioned that your
(24:18):
mom at some point said it's not hobby, right, it's
a thing, It's not hobby. So I guess what does
that say about your mom? What kind of a person
is your mom? How do you destroy her? I wish
folks could see the video right now, and we're recording
(24:40):
as we're a podcast, but I wish they could see
your faces and how broad these smiles are. To the beast,
that beautiful stallion spirit. She's a beast. She she goes
above and beyond for her children, which brings tears to
my eyes. But we're just gonna We're gonna keep pushing
(25:01):
through my mom um. My mom is amazing and and
she is a role model to how I want to
be as a woman and a mother. She has turned
out so many opportunities. She's she's made extra time to
where that we are all individually okay, and then collectively.
(25:23):
She's a one. She's never stopped. She's just never stopped.
She never stopped. So it's it's a blessing. It's a
blessing every single day that we still have her and
that we can embrace her. Now in their late twenties,
(25:53):
Selena and Taliba have had some time to look back
and reflect on their experience. Although this is a part
of our story, this is not our story, and it's
important that there are other purposes, there are other stories
that we will be a part of. This was just
one that started off the endless of the stories that
(26:13):
are going to come in the future, So it's imperative
that we keep pushing forward and reflect of course too,
because there was so much going on while we were
still in school, while we were still trying to establish
friendships and maintain our grades at the same time, it
was a lot trusting in the unknown. It's really hard.
(26:34):
And UM, in that time, it was a lot of confusion.
It was a lot of tension and anxiety. But I
would tell my younger self to not be afraid of
where my life is going to go. This is not
the end, this is only the beginning. This is only
um what's going to make us stronger. And also UM,
(26:57):
I would tell my younger self to lean all my
sister a little more before college. We were we were
at differences, so I would say Selena her more. Like
many siblings, the two sisters fought as children, but discovered
a close bond later in life. In their case, when
they were both going to college in Cleveland. I was
(27:19):
fortunate enough to have my sister thirty minutes away from me,
and I was going through so much and just trying
to figure out what am I doing and how how
can I operate in the city alone. And I was
crying and being my dramatic self as I am. And
(27:39):
she's very compassionate, and that's one thing that I really
love about our sisterhood, specifically Selena is because I can
be so in my head, especially in that time where
I didn't know what I was doing, and she would
know when it's time to give me tough love, and
she would know when it's time for me to just vent,
and she doesn't have to say anything because I'm that dramatic,
(28:02):
and she just knows those different switches for when it's
time to be a sister, when it's time to be
a friend, when it's time to be a music partner,
when it's time to be my second mom, especially with
me being the youngest, so that that that also is
a very important element and sister YouTube your sisterhood. I
(28:29):
can't even imagine the levels at which you connect as
sisters who have shared an incomprehensible journey together. I really
appreciate you respecting our boundaries and really appreciating where we
are now and taking that time and giving us this
(28:51):
platform to to just have a conversation about it and
to give us the opportunity to just speak the way
that we want to with freedom, with freedom, and even
if we don't feel like talking about something that you
guys don't shun us, right that it's like, Okay, it's fine,
we do move on. That's something that a lot of
(29:14):
people that record shows don't have or don't give UM
because because they always have it they do. It's a
if they give it or not. And so we want
to take this time out to say thank you guys
for UM including us in this special and for giving
us this platform to speak. That's it for this bonus episode.
(29:37):
I wanted to text Mildred immediately after the interview to
tell her how much I enjoyed my conversation with her daughters,
but I gave myself a data process everything i'd heard.
Taliba and Selena are both sides of the Mildred Mohammed coin.
Taliba reflects Mildred's easy smile and sense of humor. Selena
reflects Mildred's toughness and sheer strang Together, these two women
(30:02):
have a lot to say about overcoming life's difficulties, and
through their music, they demonstrate the importance of finding a
way to express yourself and exactly the way you want
to do it. Judgment be damned. When I finally texted Mildred,
I wrote, Wow, your girls are amazing. She responded with yes,
(30:25):
they are Thank you. If you'd like to hear more
of Selena and Taliba's music, search for two music that's
t O and then music. The songs Scramble that we
played in this episode is from their two thousand eighteen
album To Who, Thanks for listening.
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