March 9, 2020 • 46 mins
The rise of “cloud clubbing” from your living room, as people are ordered to stay inside. Digital raves. Virtual connection as a means to deal with an isolation bubble.
As people in China grapple with an uneasy reality, isolation, and the uncertainty around the Coronavirus, a new trend is emerging: the rise of Isolation Tech. Concerts are canceled. People are rethinking physical interaction. Nightclubs are shut down. So millions are meeting in digital clubs in the cloud where they can watch live DJ sets on Chinese apps. Welcome to The Matrix.
Instead of finding ways to depart from their devices, people have gone all in, living life in a digital bubble. Entrepreneur Zander Shapiro, who has lived in Beijing for nine years, describes his new reality in "the bubble" -- days beginning with virtual work outs, afternoons filled with remote meetings, and evenings where he joins a virtual concert, meeting other avatars for connection. He calls this moment an excellent "experiment" of what's to come in tech. Expect more extremism, less humanity, and money pouring into the business of virtual connection.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
First Contact with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot
Dot Dot Media and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The last chance to pull people back from this digital
bubble is now. If we would all do it now,
it's gone. Right, There's going to be a moment where
you're going to go into one hundred percent digital state
for a period of time because of a version of
a corona or some kind of a disaster, and you're
going to see and if you like it, there is
no reason for you to come back. The stigma is
(00:33):
going to slowly disappear.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
From the guy who's currently living in digital bubble land
right right.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I mean I am isolated. I am isolated with other people.
I'm in a bubble. Even the guards who I used
to chat with me, who I adore had masks on,
are giving me distance. So there's warmth and interaction, but
it's alled digital.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
This is a special edition of First Contact. I'm super excited.
We are broadcasting from Deer Valley in Utah.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I'm at a conference. It's a bit of a who's
who of media.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
And someone pulled me aside and said, I've got to
tell you about a trend. A lot of people here
are talking about coronavirus. A lot of people, obviously everywhere,
are talking about coronavirus.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I think there's a lot of fear of the unknown
right now.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
And a well known venture capitalist who I've known for many,
many years, pulled me aside and he said, I got
to talk to you about a trend we're seeing that
you know, this idea of isolation tech, which I thought
was fascinating. You know this this idea that people are
spending more time alone and craving connection and turning online
(01:44):
in these really unique ways. And I believe the term
cloud clubbing was used, and I just thought, oh my goodness.
So that brings me to our next guest, Xander Shapiro.
He's an entrepreneur living in Beijing. And Xander, you are
currently in Beijing right now. It's six pm my time,
(02:05):
but it's nine am your time.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yep, good morning. I'm joining my morning coffee.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Great, good morning. How are you doing good?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I'm getting used to working at home, not just on
an occasional basis, but for every day for the last
over four weeks.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, I mean, I guess let's start with that. How's
it been.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
It's been really good. I was surprised it's the isolation
has I guess it's pluses and minuses. The isolation is
kind of weird because you're being isolated from other people.
So you can go outside and take a walk. You
can take a bicycle ride, which is always a good
idea in Beijing. But you shouldn't congregate with people. And
even when you're eating meals, the government says no more
(02:46):
than three people at one table.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Wow, I want to get into that. Give us a
little bit of a background on you. You're originally from
New York. I know you worked at Spotify for a bit.
Give us a little bit of you know why you're
actually there in Beijing.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah. I was working originally in technology and in investment banking,
and I eventually switched over into branding, especially because I
found that some of the developments and telecommunications weren't as
interesting and as human oriented as I'd like them to be.
So I went over into branding and marketing. And I
(03:23):
got a call when I was working out of Germany
if I would like to work for a media and
marketing company called DMG in China. And I knew nothing
about China. They made a really attractive offer. I came
to Beijing nine years ago, which for me was a
well I'll check it out. If I like it, I'll
stay and I did so. I've been doing all kinds
(03:44):
of work with technology brands and with consumer brands, with
marketing both digital and classical for the last nine years
and really enjoying my life here in Beijing.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So tell me a little bit about what the last
couple months have been like for you as someone who's
been living there. You know, what's been the feel And
I want to get into kind of this new phrase
that I'm hearing kind of in the inside baseball tech
circles of isolation tech. But what's been the biggest change
over the last couple of months, And how are you
(04:15):
feeling well?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I mean, there's obviously fear, which is something that, especially
being a foreigner, you get used to, the fear of
the unknown. Will I be allowed to stay in China?
Will something happen between China and the US. There's been
a lot of rhetoric, especially under Trump, but this time around,
it was fear of me getting sick, getting so sick
I could die with the virus that people didn't really
(04:38):
know that much about, even though in the end of
the day, viruses aren't unknown, and even coronaviruses have been
around for a while. However, there was constant reminder of
a growing number of infected people and a growing number
of people that were dying. And on a practical level,
I was simply told I was not allowed to go
to work. I could not go to my office. I
(04:59):
could not go to any large gatherings, no movie theaters.
I wasn't allowed to go to bars. I wasn't allowed
to go to clubs. I wasn't allowed to go to
football stadium which is down the block for my favorite
team Kuwan. So it was very very strange and very isolating.
And there's a lot of news, of course on social
media and China through Waishin. There's a lot of chatter
(05:21):
going on on Facebook and Instagram. So I was very
very confusing, and in the beginning I felt very very unsure.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, I mean, is there any picture you could pain?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah? I think it's very weird because the people who
work in my building suddenly were all wearing masks. They
asked to take my temperature if for some reason I
had taken my mask off to look for my keys
or for something, or the masks are very hot and uncomfortable.
One of the guys, who knows me for years and
is always super friendly, wouldn't leave his house, which he
(05:55):
sits in while he guards the front door, and sort
of takes this look at me, How dare you not
wear a mask? Every time I wanted to go into
a store again, mask on, temperature checked. It's just it's
a very weird feeling of distance. People are told not
to stand close to other people. And what's crazy is
that Beijing is such a warm and people driven city.
(06:17):
It's the streets are always full. It reminded me of
New York when I first came Here's one of the
reasons why I felt so comfortable was that the city
never really sleeps. You can always get something to eat,
you can always go out, you can always talk with people.
People are very straightforward and direct. Their dialect is very charming.
So it's a very kind of a rough and bustling
feeling to the city. It's always very much alive. And
(06:39):
suddenly the streets are empty, the skies are incredibly blue
because there's no more pollution. People are suddenly not looking
at you and questioning you in their typical friendly way.
They're suddenly looking at you and wondering from afar. So
all that intimacy, all that hustle and bustle, all that grit,
(07:00):
all that movement suddenly disappeared and Beijing became this incredibly calm, quiet, beautiful,
clean air and skies, just a very very tranquil place
in comparison to the way that it was, and it's
very very eerie. Again, I think the other issue too
is online. It was presented by the government as we Chinese,
(07:20):
we are fighting a war, we are bonding together against
this virus, and so it's a very scary feeling to
have this notion that China is mobilizing, and especially for
you as a foreigner, I stand out. I don't wear
my masks. People will come and scold me and tell
me to put my mask on. So you start to
have this feeling of isolation, not only because the virus,
(07:41):
which doesn't allow you to get in contact with the
friends you've developed in the closeness you have to the city.
But suddenly as a foreigner, you're seen as hey, you
have to follow our rules. Now you have to work
with us. Yeah, this is kind of difficult. And also
of course the news media, whether it's being pushed on
propaganda channels owned by the government or from my friend
and colleagues, a lot, a lot of fear we must
(08:03):
do this, we have to hold together. Just sort of
felt very much like propaganda. It felt very one dimensional.
And this is one of the things, obviously that I'm
scared about in China in general, as well as just
the virus. And I think those psychological issues and that
kind of isolation was really really hard in the beginning.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Especially, And so you have this, as you're kind of
describing this, like, you have this almost beautiful, eerie, ominous
on the outside like picture you've painted, and then you
have more and more people spending time alone in their
homes and wary of each other and worried about this
virus and getting sick. And something else is happening, which
(08:41):
is people are turning online in a way. And China
has always been ahead when it comes to these online communities,
but something really interesting is happening. So I'm hearing, at
least from my tech contacts, which is people are connecting online,
and these trends that we were already kind of seeing
a little bit but have just been magnified by what's
(09:01):
been happening, So tell me what you're seeing and how
are people kind of connecting.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, now it's kind of strange because China is already
hyper digital. I leave my house, I don't carry a wallet,
so whenever I go home to New York, it's always
weird because I have to suddenly carry a wallet again.
So there's ubiquitous platforms like we Chat or the Chinese
version of pretty much all of our messaging platforms that's
(09:29):
used by everybody. And so suddenly instead of having this
feeling of I guess I shouldn't be spending so much
time on my phone. I really got to try to
get out more, do more things, you know, try to
control my use of technology. Now I'm fully in it.
So everything is going over my social media channels, everything
(09:51):
is going over my messaging platforms. I used to go
to the gym on a regular basis. I loved my gym,
like the people that were in it. It was in a
really beautiful location. And now I'm working out at home.
I'm ordering food in and cooking more so. Chinese love
to cook. So there's some issues about the ability of
fast food change to survive because people here in China
(10:11):
when they're at home actually cook, so ordering tremendous amounts
of fruits and vegetables and meats to their homes. And
there's great services here in China, even to get directly
in contact with smaller farmers. So all my friends now
are starting to contact me. So the coldness outside is
being replaced by a social media warmth. People are asking me,
am I okay, what am I doing? Can I help
(10:32):
them with things that they're writing? Can we do sports
or exercise together? Digitally? I mean, of course, listening to music.
I have a friend who's a DJ who's been helping
me with a project, who's her fame is growing and growing,
and she tells me about a new concert that she's
giving online. So she goes to huge clubs across Asia
and growing success in the US. And now she's going
(10:55):
to do a DJ set as part of a digital
club offered by QQ Music, which is the leading music
provider in China and owned by ten Set. And so
I'm able to join that basically digital disco and listen
to her music and her set, catch the set of
other DJs, catch the comments from people, catch videos, upload pictures,
(11:15):
and then suddenly I'm able to do sports at home,
eat at home, hang out with friends at home, be
able to enjoy music and play at home. So it's
starting to change everything dramatically. And I don't feel guilty
now for spending so much time on my phone or
on my laptop, because that's just what you can do,
that's the way things are.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
We just totally dig into all of this because all
of the things you're saying are so fascinating, right, like
this idea that people are like going to.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
I think that the term that someone said was cloud clubbing.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
So I think a lot of these services, whether it's
cloud clubbing or exercise get at home by numerous digital platforms,
has been out there for a while and it's been
slowly growing. As you know, electronic gaming is huge groups.
But once you're unable to go out and meet with
friends and there's a very clear restriction, then these opportunities
(12:07):
go from fun and nice to have to essential. So
for me, it was really nice. I could say, Wow,
I'm going to have this really awesome experience. I'm not
going to be isolated. I'm going to hear these really
cool DJs. I'm able to pop in comments, read the
comments from other people, upload videos or pictures be part
of this community. I can click people that have comments
(12:28):
that I like. The comments are coming in in all
different languages from all over China and all over Europe,
and so it's a pretty cool experience. Again in relationship
to me watching a video that I'm streaming, or me
just listening to music, how.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Does it actually work? Like take me, I mean, I
don't mean to kind of dig into but like, what
are you dancing at?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Like?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Right? So I think for me because it's electronic music, yeah,
there's a lot. From my perspective, I'm in a nice
comfortable chair. I'm moving my body and bobbing my head
as I'm listening to the music. So this is the
other funny thing. So I can dance or I can
jump around and take a little video, but I want
to comment to people. I want to share pictures. So
(13:15):
this is again the situation. You can sort of just
rock out if you want, but you can also interact
with other people. If you're gonna interact, you need to type.
So if you need to type, you need to sit
down or you need to be sort of standing as
we all are used to with our smartphones. So it's
a bit of a combination. I think. Also for me,
dancing by myself is phone for a couple of minutes,
but at some point I get a lot more sports,
(13:36):
as I mentioned earlier, watching a video of a plate's
instructor from New York, or yoga instructor from Hawaii, or
a hit trainer from Shanghai, So that tends to be
more my thing. I like looking out my window having
my headphones on. I can eat the snacks that I
want to have, I can hang out. I can also
invite friends to come and do this with me. Then
it's more of a dance. When I'm here with my
(13:59):
girlfriend Bag, then we can dance together. Then it's more fun,
but it's sort of dancing by myself. I prefer to
sort of sit in chair and sway and enjoy the
beats and type to people and share things digitally while
I'm enjoying the music.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
And have you noticed more of your friends doing a
lot of this since the coronavirus, since a lot of
this stuff started happening.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, of course. And I think what you're always doing
is you're looking for ways to share fun stuff with
your friends. So when I heard about this concert of course,
I share it with my friends. I shared it with
our mutual friend in New York, so he really got
into the idea. And so you're always looking for fun
things to share. It's like things to have a conversation
about online. So when I meet with people in real life,
(14:40):
we chat about what we're up to, what we're doing.
So I've got to find those similar things so be
able to join these kinds of events, and the events
provide a lot of cool images which you can download.
It becomes a nice conversation topic. I can then share
tunes from one of the DJs I heard about and
listen to them afterwards, so it's a nice way of
integrating your life. But the crazy thing is that this
cloud clib being experience I have is occurring about fifteen
(15:04):
twenty feet from where I sit and do my work,
so I haven't stopped working, and actually I've been working
pretty efficiently. So the place where I'm doing conference calls
and writing documents and editing and brainstorming, et cetera, is
also the space where I'm doing my sports, where I'm
grooving out to my favorite DJs, or where I'm chatting
with people. So things start to float together and I
(15:27):
like to view out my window because it reminds me
of exactly where I am. But these kinds of separations
between work and play and sports and sleep start to
melt together. And I've enjoyed that, but I'm not sure
that's always necessarily helpful for all people. And I've heard
that from friends. Some of them are able to work
even more efficiently at home, and other people are having
more issues getting motivated.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Okay, we've got to take a quick break to hear
from our sponsors more as my guests after the break.
(16:11):
So you've kind of described like how play has changed
for you. I mean, it just sounds like it's just
not around other people to a degree.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Do you miss human connection?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Like do you miss being at a dance club and
dancing with other people?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Do you miss that?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah? No, I totally do. And that's the eerie thing
is that it doesn't feel the same. It feels different.
It feels good. I mean, it's really nice to be connected.
It's great to have a super productive conference call with
your client because everybody's totally focused on the call because
there will be no fiscal meeting, not between you and
the client and not between the client and the other
members of the team, So real decisions have to be
(16:49):
made so you can listen to people much more carefully.
People are taking your documents more shares. We've got to
make a decision on this call. You know, we're on zoom,
we're sharing documents. This has to come to something that's
a good feeling. But it's not the same feeling of
seeing that reaction on somebody's face.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, I mean, I kind of read the message I
got tweeted. Cloud clubbing clubbing from your living room. During
virus restrictions, an extension of peloton to DJs and going
out with nightclubs closed and music events canceled for the
foreseeable future, a number of DJs and clubs in China
turning to cloud clubbing.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Cloud clubbing is where people.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Can go watch live DJ sets and send in messages
to give them the feeling that they're in the club.
The cloud clubbing events usually take place in apps, you know,
like China's TikTok. I mean, it's fascinating to me, you know,
just that the culture change that is likely happening because
of that, and the almost it feels like with what
you're discussing and what you're talking about so casually just
(17:41):
feels like an alternative universe.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Does that make.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Sense, Yeah, no, it does. I mean it's you're isolating.
So just imagine if you couldn't meet with your friends,
you couldn't go out to public prices, you had to
do everything on your own. So one of the great
things for people that are traditionally people that have physical issues,
people that have issues with their way, people that are
(18:06):
scared of crowds. There's a large number of people that
are already extremely isolated in our society, so things like
social media, things like digital worlds allow them a alternative
to the classic social lives that we need. In places
like Japan, these kinds of trends have already gone to extremes.
There are people who are already very seldom leave their
(18:27):
rooms or their homes, and I think there are a
lot of negative sides to all of this. However, it's
an interesting experiment, and I think that Beijing and Shanghai,
and obviously cities like Wuhan and Guangzhou that are much
more affected by the virus are excellent, excellent laboratories for
people to see what's happened. And I hope that researchers
(18:50):
and reporters spend time when this is all over because
it will most likely end, and to check out what happens.
What happens when people aren't able to congregate in traditional
patterns are then positive and negative issues. I don't know
what happens in a place like New York when there's
a blackout and people shouldn't go outside, but very often
those kinds of situations, the technology also doesn't work. The
(19:11):
interesting situation here is that all of the digital networks
are working perfectly, all the systems are working perfectly. The
only issue is this unseen virus which is out there
encouraging to stay inside. So again, I think if especially
if you have somebody to stay with or a small
group of people that you can see on a periodic basis,
it's kind of an interesting world.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I love how you describe it as like an experiment,
Like when all this is over, like what experiment did
we just do? Like what do you think this moment
represents for technology? Because this has always been out there,
like this idea of like kind of you know, we've
had second life in the past, We've had this idea,
and people in tech are talking about augmented reality, virtual reality,
living in these virtual worlds like peloton right, Like this
(19:54):
idea of even working out with people and you know,
and having people in the background and you're kind of
virtually we're out with other folks, Like this is not
you know, this idea of personal tech, like this isn't new.
But something about this and something about this world that
you're painting for us, and this picture that you're describing
of your life right now as you sit there kind
of isolated from other people. It certainly seems like an
(20:18):
interesting experiment as to where we could be going and
where some of these trends are, and like, I don't
know where we go, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, I think if you take off the parental guidance
of your teenager, your child who just loves to chattel
day with their friends and spend time on their laptop.
What if you just let them go for a week
and they never left their room and you brought them food.
It would change everything. And I think this is also
we spend time trying to control ourselves. No, don't go
(20:49):
out with your friends and look at your phone the
entire time. We try to control the encroachment of digital technologies.
In our life. But when this quarantine happen and suddenly
you stop doing that, so you're just like, okay, I'm
in the digital world now. I no longer say to myself, Shapiro,
put down your phone and go outside, like hey, go
(21:09):
meet with your friends. So it's all of a sudden
that's all gone. So there's no longer an excuse or
a push or rationalization to take yourself out of the tech,
so you just fall into it. You say, well, this
is my life right now, So I don't have to
go down the hall and talk with Lily or with
Leang or the other members of my team. I can
just chat with them. So all of a sudden, all
(21:31):
those physical means that we normally use to interact with people,
to have experiences to go out and explore are gone.
So we use the digital alternatives. We take them much
more seriously, We carefully look at it. So suddenly I
started to explore apps that I said, do I really
need another app? Do I really need more digital in
my life? Now It's like, hell, yeah, give me more digital.
(21:53):
I've got to find more fun things to do. I've
got to find new ways to communicate with my friends
and my clients show something which I tried to keep
till three or four hours a day. Boom is eight
hours a day. I think it's an interesting experiment, and
I think again, instead of just fearing it, people need
to sort of imagine an experiment with what would happen
if they didn't go out for a week, they didn't
(22:16):
interact with their friends. What are the positives and the negatives,
and how they can manage a better because there's obviously
a dark side to it. There are people that can
completely disconnect or have largely disconnected from society, and without
that push or that feeling that this isn't really a
good thing, that there are side effects, it becomes a difficulty.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I had to take this to you right, Like we're
speaking so broadly about this, Like what about you. You're
spending more and more time online as you talk about
in this isolation state. You are the experiment right now,
you are living the experiment. What's the negative impact for you?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah? I think the negative impact for me is that
I stop really planning ahead, I stop questioning. I really
like a flow lifestyle. I tend to work towards that anyway,
dealing with issues as they come. I'm extremely critical. It's
part of my job doing strategy to constant question things.
(23:13):
But I start doing it' had a much much higher rate,
And I've also stopped filtering as much. So when I
see information that I really like digitally, I comment right away,
now this is really great. Wow, this is awesome. Thanks
for sharing. And when I see things that are superficial
or that I feel to be ill informed. When I
catch friends in the States making fun of the coronavirus
(23:34):
or silly jokes, I start defriending them. So all of
a sudden, I start taking a lot of the things
on social media and digitally a lot more serious, and
I start pulling them apart more because it's becomes so
much more important, and I'm in the past I would say,
well that was just silly. Let it slide. Somebody's just
posting something dumb on social media. People don't think on
a regular basis that person's not very critical. They're just
(23:57):
cutting and pasting because they feel they need to make
a post. Now, all of a sudden, I'm like, no,
it's not okay to post useless, superficial or hurtful things.
And I don't want to flame this person. I don't
even want them on my stream anymore. So it's interesting
I've started to disconnect myself from people that I feel
don't post quality things, don't know how to write a
(24:18):
proper message, aren't really dealing with things. And then I've
seen other people who have responded, whether it's in the
US or here in China, who have been very very thoughtful,
who have reached out in very constructive, intelligent ways. And
I'm starting now because I'm so dependent on this stream
to edit out anything that isn't of a certain quality level,
and I think that's obviously going to affect my diversity.
(24:39):
It's made me much more critical and focused, and I think,
to some extent more extreme digitally. When it becomes such
an important aspect of my life.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
It's almost like, you know, we're having this conversation about
technology and how we really need to moderate our use
and take a step back from it, and it's almost
like you just like swallow the red pill, right, Like
you just like went all the way in and this
is kind of your mechanism to survive this moment.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I used to go out and do sports all the time.
Now I don't go out and do sports, so I
do everything in my living room. There's so much stuff
online for sports, It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
What do you do, Like can you just like paint
a picture? Like can you give us like a visual
image of what your day looks like in your home?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Right? So the most important thing is when you're in
the sort of cocoon phase, is to jump start your morning. Right,
So I get out of bed, got to sing a
little song to myself, jump in the down baking noises,
got to say, okay, now the day is starting to
throw up all the curtains. I've been doing a lot
of plates and yoga first thing in the morning, which
I never did before. So I hate the morning. I
don't want to get out of bed. I'm not going
(25:42):
to go to the gym first thing in the morning.
But Brigita and I wake up, we drink our coffee.
We try to do yoga or plates right away. Because
yoga and plates are made for an apartment. So the
videos and the sports that we can do have to
be carefully made for a space which fits in with
our living. We have open up the shades, we look outside,
(26:02):
we can open up the windows, but we get into that.
We can do an hour, we can do ninety minutes,
we can do two or three different videos. We like
to find people that have funny accents. So we found
this woman who's a plate's instructor in Australia and she
Ali says noise, you know. And we have a guy
in New York who's motivating us to get going. There's
(26:23):
people from Japan, there's people from China who are talking
and helping you through. There's an old yoga instructor named
Rodny who does a yoga class on top of a
hill in Hawaii. It's a very very very different experience. Then,
of course you've got to take your shower and then
slide checking your phone after you've turned it off because
you're working out. All of a sudden, there's messages, clients
(26:45):
want to speak for you. You have to organize phone calls,
you have to organize meetings, you have to look at work.
And then that goes into that flow, and then somehow
we figure when it is time for lunch, when our
flow digital information calms down and we both find a
good spot, we can then turn our phones off and
try to enjoy a lunch. But of course then suddenly
the phone little buzz is So this issue of your
(27:07):
free time, talking with your partner, enjoying your meals, enjoying
your spare time. All flows together. So I'm answering messages
from friends, from colleagues, from clients, from strangers who are
contacting me through other friends who want to know how
I'm doing, who are asking me questions. All very very
elegantly flows together. And I think that's the scary part
(27:28):
is that the day goes by really fast, right, So
there's almost no period of time when I'm like super bored.
There's not a period of time where there's something missing,
so it just all flows together. And then suddenly it
goes from being nine in the morning when I start working,
or nine thirty or ten to one o'clock and then
having some lunch which slows things down, and then boom,
(27:49):
it's suddenly six or seven, and then we stop for dinner.
We can go out for a walk, play some frisbee outside,
but again it's just the two of us. When we
come back. We can spend time looking at entertainment together,
listening to music together, but it all flows to it
and day goes by really really quickly. So digital time
for me, especially if you're doing something interesting, it's much
much faster, so some to days have flown by.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
What do you think about this term isolation technology?
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yeah it is. I mean I am isolated. I am
isolated with other people. I'm in a bubble, but I'm
not going out and talking to people, So I'm isolated
here in my apartment. I don't receive visitors. If somebody
brings me a package, the package has to be left
at the door. I'm not allowed to interact with people.
I don't really think the delivery guy like I used to.
(28:36):
I don't chat with him like I used to. So
it's me and my bubble, requesting things, looking at things,
interacting with things. But there's no people. Like I said,
even the guards who I used to chat with and
who I adore have masks on, are giving me distance.
So there's warmth and interaction, but it's all digital, so
it changes everything. And so as you know, digital technologies
(28:57):
are always a watered down or disrupted version of our
real So a real conversation is much more impactive than
a digital conversation. So there's all these multiple flows of
much softer, much less impactful conversation. So it creates this
very dreamlike flow in your life and there's not as
much ups and downs as you would have in the
(29:17):
real life, where expressions or tastes or interactions are much
more powerful. So here suddenly things are much softer, Things
are much more gliding together. If something doesn't work, I
can quickly slide into something else. I can ask things
I'm not really looking at time the same way I'm
looking at more in terms of blocks, not really in
terms of a larger concept. Everything is relatively easy to do.
(29:39):
I can quickly establish a call, I can quickly order food.
But the level of impact and effectiveness or the amount
of emotions I feel with each experience as much life,
But it's just a lot more.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Okay, we've got to take a quick break to hear
from our sponsors more as my guests after the break.
Do you worry that in some of this like cloud
(30:15):
clubbing or I think someone used the term peloton disco
tech or something.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Can you describe that really quick for us?
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah? I think for me, having the sort of peloton
disco tech concept of life where you're just having these
experiences with other individuals from far flung locations, creates this
feeling that the world is like your digital concierge. Should
bring you things. The more you pay, the higher level
of service you have. The more you pay, the more
(30:46):
features you get. And why not have music services brought
to you bi Peloton? Why not have other social interactions?
So this is always the dream, and I suppose is
justifying evaluations, is the Peloton screen should do more for
me right now? After staying at home. I want the
videos and the experiences I pull from YouTube. I want more.
What if I want to pay for somebody to provide
(31:09):
a service to me via that video screen as Peloton is,
I want to upgrade it. I wanted to go into
other areas. And I think that's the scary point, you know,
Why go out and listen and experience or take up
a one on one class or a lesson with somebody
when I can have many more experiences digitally so well,
that time spen traveling and all the rest disappears. I mean,
(31:29):
for me, it was a real shock that Peloton was
so successful after soul Cycle and all these other locations
were showing such a strong growth as well. Why would
somebody who's successful and wealthy want to sit in their
living room and spin when they could go to a
really cool class downtown but now I don't know why.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I mean, you understand it now in a new way.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
You think, Yeah, no, I totally do. So I get
to do more lower quality things. So I can't imagine
that being on a peloton is better than going to
a kick soul cycle class. I mean, I've tried both,
and I'd rather be in a soul cycle class. But
what I do appreciate now is the ability to get
out of my bed, go into the living room, do
(32:10):
an amazing workout. I can then get through. I can
then have the kinds of beverages and the food that's
super healthy, slide right into work and it's all super seamless. Now,
if I have to get up, I have to go
out to the gym, right, I'm gonna go to the gym.
I'm going to have this intense tym experience. But then
I'm probably gonna go out and eat it a restaurant afterwards.
It probably not gonna eat as healthy. The entire experience
(32:31):
is probably gonna be four hours five hours. If I
had kept it all at home, it'd probably all be
about two hours. So I can do much more by
never leaving my house. Now, if I have the resources
and the finances and the knowledge that I have.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
I mean, so the relationship with time changes, your relationship
with people change. What do you think is the biggest
thing that's getting lost during this whole digital experiment that
you seem to be swimming in.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah, I think I'm obviously losing time just by myself.
So even though I'm isolated, I'm constantly connected. So that
walk that I take now by myself or with Berget
is really important because I get to disconnect and not
constantly react, which I think is really important, just the
(33:17):
need to just do nothing. So even though I'm isolated,
I'm not doing nothing. I'm constantly playing with devices. I've
gotten to this digital world totally, and it's really important
to turn off. So I've lost a lot of that
turnoff time, which I thought would have happened more it is.
And I think it's important periodically to be a bit bored,
to just see what happens, to stumble into things. And
(33:38):
I think now our digital words are so algorithm that
we don't really just stumble upon things anymore. We hear
about things from friends, we search for things in our
searches are pushed and pulled in different directions, so that
ability to sort of like go through a flea market
and see what happens. Walk down the street and randomly
things jump out at you as a kid, and there's
(33:59):
a stranger, there's an old ladies singing. That's all gone.
So everything feels very very much put inside of an
algorithm driven channel for me where things are organized by
other people, and that kind of spontaneity doesn't exist online anymore,
doesn't exist digitally anymore. People know my patterns. I can
see it now. So it's just the more and more
you spend, the more and more your devices learn, the
(34:20):
more and more you lean into them, you just start
flowing into these patterns of behavior which are really scary.
I mean, they're nice, it's like fast food, but it's
really really you find yourself just taking these easier digital
paths instead of exploring these things.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
I can't help but think.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
We had Professor Moran Surf on First Contact an episode
called like Hacking your Brain to order Dreams on demand,
and it was a fascinating episode, and you know, I
asked him, what do you think is the single most
important ethical issue coming down the pipeline?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
And he said, young people as they grow up.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
He's like people are going to stop having I think
he said something along the lines of like aren't going
to have sexual relationships anymore. People are gonna stop connecting
in like a sexual way. And so I guess I
think about this from what you're talking about with the
rise of isolation tech. You talk about having a girlfriend,
and it sounds like you're lucky that you have a
(35:12):
girlfriend during this and that you guys can spend a
lot of time together and what seems like a very isolating, scary,
lonely time in China. But we talk about cloud clubbing, right,
this weird concept, but it sounds like millions and if
you look at some of the stats, and there's been
some writing on this, millions of people are showing up
in these virtual clubs to spend time with one another
(35:33):
on comment, but no one's touching, like, no one's talking, no.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
One's making out right, Like I mean, you.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Know, physical connection is the thing that seems to be
lost in some of this digital overdose. So do you
worry that as we you know, and hopefully we will
get through this scary time, but do you worry that
with the rise of this and this is kind of
like this microcosm for this moment of digital and what's
(36:03):
kind of coming down the pipeline. And maybe this is
just putting this out there in a bigger way, but like,
do you worry that that maybe as we see this
trend happening, like we're all going to be spending time
with one another but not being with each other and
having intimacy.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
No, I totally agree, and I think it's already happening.
So if you look at as I mentioned before, countries
like Japan, even here in China and the US, rates
of just having sex are going down. People are no
longer as intimate as they used to be. With the
whole met too movement in the States, I can also
assume that these kinds of sexual interactions are becoming much
(36:41):
more fraud It's just easier not to do it. And
now with all the digital alternatives through pornography or other
forms of sexual expression digitally, it's going to push it
even farther. So this is again for me, extremely frightening.
I mean, I grew up in the seventies and I'm
used to as much physical contact as I can possibly
(37:03):
muster with the people that I adore, and playing sports
like basketball in New York that's all going away and
it's going to continue, and in this situation with the
coronavirus just exacerbates it. I think what's interesting again is
that we still always joke when I was growing up
that there's always one day of the year when you're
an alcoholic where you're not an alcoholic anymore, and that's
of course, on New Year's Eve. There are a lot
(37:25):
of people that just don't find it comfortable or easy
to be with other people, that don't find it comfortable
to be social, and right now, for them, it's like
New Year's Eve. They have no stigma there. It can
stay at home the whole day, they can have no
physical interaction. I've also heard over the years that i've
been here where people know colleagues that don't really want
to go to rooms or talk with people. They're messaging
(37:48):
people that are in a cubicle twenty feet away from
them having intense conversations, which I've seen. So I think
that isolation trend is already going on now. For me,
it's horrifying. But the question is, is you know for
another Jeed generation if they prefer to live in isolation. Yeah,
it's scary for me and it's sad, but I see
it really as an inevitability. And what's crazy here in
(38:10):
China is that people didn't suddenly were bold teenagers. Weren't saying, yeah,
let's just create our own underground club. Fuck the rules,
just go out and have fun. They didn't do that.
You know. People were much more critical about how the
virus was being handled. But people were okay with staying
at home. People were okay with not going to work,
people were okay with ordering all their food and home
(38:31):
or cooking at home. People seem to be able to
manage it. There wasn't a huge amount of unrest. There
wasn't a huge amount of reactions to this as it were,
for example, to Hong Kong, to other political issues. So
it's kind of scary, but I think that this is
just another example of how this direction will continue. I mean,
we're not going to get less digital. I think the
(38:51):
other fascinating thing is that simpler is better. So the
technologies people are turning to are not more and more complicated.
They're just using those simple, fast, easy flowing to technologies
more and more. And maybe that's one of the reason
why peloton works well, because it's so easy to use.
You don't have to learn a new piece of software,
you don't have complicated formulas to fill out. And most
of the technologies that are taking off here, and the
(39:12):
delivery services that are working well are those same old
classical services. So a Facebook or an Instagram or a
snap are just going to grow. So here, JD dot
COM's the delivery online retailer for food and for most essentials.
It's the biggest distributor of food related items. Had a
tremendous quarter. There's stock skyrocketed yesterday. So I don't see
(39:34):
that stop, you know.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
And also, we're facing so much uncertainty in the world
right now. It's wildfires one place, you've got coronavirus, it's
political unrest, and so I can't help but think there's
this other trend that we're seeing online and that there's
just there's something there and people connecting, I don't know,
and people kind of retreating in some capacity.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
I don't think it's random.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
I think there's certainly something about this moment that feels
very uncertain.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, but the cloud disco Go is there for you. You know,
it says don't worry about it, you know, come to
the peloton discothech. It's cool man. So it's all crazy
out there, But hey, stay at home. You don't have
to go out. You don't even have to. You know,
you can engage in politics, just do it all digitally,
like you can do your sports. You can do everything.
Why bother going outside or why even bother starting a
physical relationship with one person when you could have hundreds
(40:24):
of superficial digital relationships. I mean, this is the thing
that shocked me when I first came to Asia was
going out to really cool, totally lit up disco with
amazing DJs. And some of the discos in Beijing or
in Shining Hot or in Tokyo have some amazing visual effects,
or in Soul and you see a table full of
twenty somethings, super good looking and really well dressed, anywhere
(40:48):
from eight to twelve of them, all around the table
with big bottles of alcohol, and they're all looking at
their phones all the time. There's a really nice CJ going,
nobody's dancing. So how far away is it from this?
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Did we just write a black Mirror episode together? Or
are we living in one?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
I think the crazy thing is that the Black Mirror
episode is happening in slow motion relatively speaking, So we're
sliding into it. So this is the question, like, it's
gonna happen, right, We're going to get us into a
situation where people are living more and more via social media,
as if we already weren't. Right, you know, there's all
(41:26):
the joke about oh, what happens if you lose your phone?
What happens to your life? Yeah, and we joke about it,
but should we really be joking about it? So the
last chance to pull people back from this digital bubble
is now. If we wole all do it now, it's gone. Right,
there's going to be a moment where you're going to
go into one hundred percent digital state for a period
of time because of a version of a Corona or
(41:47):
some kind of a disaster, and you're going to see
and if you like it, there is no reason for
you to come back. The stigma is going to slowly disappear.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
From the guy who's currently living in digital bubble land, right, Right.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
But I was already here. I mean that's the thing.
When I go back to New York, there's a lot
more interaction, right, I don't have the same kind of
initiative asking my friends to put the phone down or
watching the groups. So it is still a much more
of a go out and enjoy things. It's already slid
into that direction. I just have a feeling that it's
not going to stop.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Do you feel like you're in the matrix?
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Oh yeah, yeah. I think the thing is that the
matrix is there for everybody. It's just that are you
in the matrix one hundred percent or fifty percent? You know?
Are you in the matrix four hours a day or
eight hours a day? And everybody has their own matrix.
So I think that's the thing too, the sort of
belief that there's sort of one big matrix out there,
role in it. Everybody's got their own matrix. I wish
(42:40):
a lot of the digital services knew me better and
woul stopped sending me advertising our information that I had
absolutely no interest in. So my matrix consists of my clients.
It's consists of the people that I love. It's my family.
It's I build my matrix. And now that I'm in
it more and more, I'm grooming it more. I'm kicking
people out and information out and apps out and putting
(43:01):
other ones in because hey, wait, this is my world. Now,
so I'm taking much better care of it, which is
good and bad too, because what it does is I'm
sort of creating a matrix that has less resistance, that
has higher quality, which in turn then meets my needs
more and pushes me further in So I think the
important part is at some point to just not turn
(43:22):
it down the volume of my matures, but literally turn
it off. And I think that's something that I'm beginning
to realize and trying to do more and more, is
literally leave all the devices at home, go outside for
a walk. Have things happen to you in a random fashion.
Because things in the digital world are controlled, and they're
controlled by you, and they're repetitive and they're easy and
(43:43):
they're comforting. And that's a problem. If I want to
really challenge myself and see new things, if I want
spontaneous things to happen, I got to go outside. Algorithms
are not spontaneous.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
My last question for you, Dander, are you afraid?
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Oh yeah, I'm afraid of all the time. I like fear.
I mean, fear for me is really important. That's one
of the things that I hate when I go back
to those dates is that people aren't really critical. You know,
people don't want to be scared of things. People hate, conflict,
these are all really important things. So yeah, I'm totally scared.
I think the interesting about coronavirus is reminds me that
the most dangerous thing on the planet is other people.
(44:21):
When I look at politics, either in China or the US, again,
it's people. So I get really scared of people. I
get scared of what people are able to do. I
get scared of what people are able to believe. I
get scared of how quickly people are willing to do
without things as you had mentioned, like physical contact or sex.
They're willing to give that up for me is frightening.
At the same time, the compassion and the warmth that
(44:42):
I've experienced from people, and when I take good care
of my digital networks, how many amazing conversations and experiences
I can have just sitting down and carefully writing texts
between another intelligent person. I know for a while how
good that can be. Writing letters back and forth basically
to friends, or hearing their voices, or talking more now
to my mom, which I haven't done enough. And this
(45:02):
isolation is allowing me to reach out more and do
some of those things calmly in an appropriate state of
mind that I want is really really hopeful. But yeah,
I mean it is frightened. It is very very scary
to imagine a world where people just don't touch each
other anymore.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Well, I think it's a good way to end it.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Maybe also a good reminder to call our parents or
tell someone we love them. So thank you for that,
and we'll be thinking about you, and maybe I'll see
you in a cloud club one day or maybe in
real life, hopefully in real life, have a wonderful one,
and take care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Okay, Okay, thank you.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Okay, guys, So if you're sitting at home and listening
to this by yourself, I'm assuming you're feeling a little
bit weird. That obviously gave it gave me a lot
to think about. I don't know about you, but I
would love to hear from you. What do you want
to hear more of? How did that make you feel?
I'm trying out this new community number so you can
text me, and I swear this actually goes directly.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
To my phone.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
The number is nine one seven five four zero three
four one zero, So text me and here's a personal request.
If you like the show, leave us a review on
the Apple podcast app or wherever you listen to your podcasts,
and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. You can
follow me I am at Lori Siegel on Twitter and Instagram,
and the show is at First Contact Podcast. On Instagram
(46:32):
and on Twitter, you can find us We're at First
Contact Pod. First Contact is a production of Dot dot
Dot Media. Executive produced by Lori Siegel and Derek Dodge,
and this episode was produced and edited by Sabine Jansen
and Jack Reagan. Original theme music by Xander Singh. First
(46:52):
Contact with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot dot
Dot Media and iHeartRadio
First Contact with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot
Dot Dot Media and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The last chance to pull people back from this digital
bubble is now. If we would all do it now,
it's gone. Right, There's going to be a moment where
you're going to go into one hundred percent digital state
for a period of time because of a version of
a corona or some kind of a disaster, and you're
going to see and if you like it, there is
no reason for you to come back. The stigma is
(00:33):
going to slowly disappear.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
From the guy who's currently living in digital bubble land
right right.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I mean I am isolated. I am isolated with other people.
I'm in a bubble. Even the guards who I used
to chat with me, who I adore had masks on,
are giving me distance. So there's warmth and interaction, but
it's alled digital.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
This is a special edition of First Contact. I'm super excited.
We are broadcasting from Deer Valley in Utah.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I'm at a conference. It's a bit of a who's
who of media.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
And someone pulled me aside and said, I've got to
tell you about a trend. A lot of people here
are talking about coronavirus. A lot of people, obviously everywhere,
are talking about coronavirus.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I think there's a lot of fear of the unknown
right now.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
And a well known venture capitalist who I've known for many,
many years, pulled me aside and he said, I got
to talk to you about a trend we're seeing that
you know, this idea of isolation tech, which I thought
was fascinating. You know this this idea that people are
spending more time alone and craving connection and turning online
(01:44):
in these really unique ways. And I believe the term
cloud clubbing was used, and I just thought, oh my goodness.
So that brings me to our next guest, Xander Shapiro.
He's an entrepreneur living in Beijing. And Xander, you are
currently in Beijing right now. It's six pm my time,
(02:05):
but it's nine am your time.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yep, good morning. I'm joining my morning coffee.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Great, good morning. How are you doing good?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I'm getting used to working at home, not just on
an occasional basis, but for every day for the last
over four weeks.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, I mean, I guess let's start with that. How's
it been.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
It's been really good. I was surprised it's the isolation
has I guess it's pluses and minuses. The isolation is
kind of weird because you're being isolated from other people.
So you can go outside and take a walk. You
can take a bicycle ride, which is always a good
idea in Beijing. But you shouldn't congregate with people. And
even when you're eating meals, the government says no more
(02:46):
than three people at one table.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Wow, I want to get into that. Give us a
little bit of a background on you. You're originally from
New York. I know you worked at Spotify for a bit.
Give us a little bit of you know why you're
actually there in Beijing.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah. I was working originally in technology and in investment banking,
and I eventually switched over into branding, especially because I
found that some of the developments and telecommunications weren't as
interesting and as human oriented as I'd like them to be.
So I went over into branding and marketing. And I
(03:23):
got a call when I was working out of Germany
if I would like to work for a media and
marketing company called DMG in China. And I knew nothing
about China. They made a really attractive offer. I came
to Beijing nine years ago, which for me was a
well I'll check it out. If I like it, I'll
stay and I did so. I've been doing all kinds
(03:44):
of work with technology brands and with consumer brands, with
marketing both digital and classical for the last nine years
and really enjoying my life here in Beijing.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So tell me a little bit about what the last
couple months have been like for you as someone who's
been living there. You know, what's been the feel And
I want to get into kind of this new phrase
that I'm hearing kind of in the inside baseball tech
circles of isolation tech. But what's been the biggest change
over the last couple of months, And how are you
(04:15):
feeling well?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I mean, there's obviously fear, which is something that, especially
being a foreigner, you get used to, the fear of
the unknown. Will I be allowed to stay in China?
Will something happen between China and the US. There's been
a lot of rhetoric, especially under Trump, but this time around,
it was fear of me getting sick, getting so sick
I could die with the virus that people didn't really
(04:38):
know that much about, even though in the end of
the day, viruses aren't unknown, and even coronaviruses have been
around for a while. However, there was constant reminder of
a growing number of infected people and a growing number
of people that were dying. And on a practical level,
I was simply told I was not allowed to go
to work. I could not go to my office. I
(04:59):
could not go to any large gatherings, no movie theaters.
I wasn't allowed to go to bars. I wasn't allowed
to go to clubs. I wasn't allowed to go to
football stadium which is down the block for my favorite
team Kuwan. So it was very very strange and very isolating.
And there's a lot of news, of course on social
media and China through Waishin. There's a lot of chatter
(05:21):
going on on Facebook and Instagram. So I was very
very confusing, and in the beginning I felt very very unsure.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, I mean, is there any picture you could pain?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah? I think it's very weird because the people who
work in my building suddenly were all wearing masks. They
asked to take my temperature if for some reason I
had taken my mask off to look for my keys
or for something, or the masks are very hot and uncomfortable.
One of the guys, who knows me for years and
is always super friendly, wouldn't leave his house, which he
(05:55):
sits in while he guards the front door, and sort
of takes this look at me, How dare you not
wear a mask? Every time I wanted to go into
a store again, mask on, temperature checked. It's just it's
a very weird feeling of distance. People are told not
to stand close to other people. And what's crazy is
that Beijing is such a warm and people driven city.
(06:17):
It's the streets are always full. It reminded me of
New York when I first came Here's one of the
reasons why I felt so comfortable was that the city
never really sleeps. You can always get something to eat,
you can always go out, you can always talk with people.
People are very straightforward and direct. Their dialect is very charming.
So it's a very kind of a rough and bustling
feeling to the city. It's always very much alive. And
(06:39):
suddenly the streets are empty, the skies are incredibly blue
because there's no more pollution. People are suddenly not looking
at you and questioning you in their typical friendly way.
They're suddenly looking at you and wondering from afar. So
all that intimacy, all that hustle and bustle, all that grit,
(07:00):
all that movement suddenly disappeared and Beijing became this incredibly calm, quiet, beautiful,
clean air and skies, just a very very tranquil place
in comparison to the way that it was, and it's
very very eerie. Again, I think the other issue too
is online. It was presented by the government as we Chinese,
(07:20):
we are fighting a war, we are bonding together against
this virus, and so it's a very scary feeling to
have this notion that China is mobilizing, and especially for
you as a foreigner, I stand out. I don't wear
my masks. People will come and scold me and tell
me to put my mask on. So you start to
have this feeling of isolation, not only because the virus,
(07:41):
which doesn't allow you to get in contact with the
friends you've developed in the closeness you have to the city.
But suddenly as a foreigner, you're seen as hey, you
have to follow our rules. Now you have to work
with us. Yeah, this is kind of difficult. And also
of course the news media, whether it's being pushed on
propaganda channels owned by the government or from my friend
and colleagues, a lot, a lot of fear we must
(08:03):
do this, we have to hold together. Just sort of
felt very much like propaganda. It felt very one dimensional.
And this is one of the things, obviously that I'm
scared about in China in general, as well as just
the virus. And I think those psychological issues and that
kind of isolation was really really hard in the beginning.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Especially, And so you have this, as you're kind of
describing this, like, you have this almost beautiful, eerie, ominous
on the outside like picture you've painted, and then you
have more and more people spending time alone in their
homes and wary of each other and worried about this
virus and getting sick. And something else is happening, which
(08:41):
is people are turning online in a way. And China
has always been ahead when it comes to these online communities,
but something really interesting is happening. So I'm hearing, at
least from my tech contacts, which is people are connecting online,
and these trends that we were already kind of seeing
a little bit but have just been magnified by what's
(09:01):
been happening, So tell me what you're seeing and how
are people kind of connecting.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, now it's kind of strange because China is already
hyper digital. I leave my house, I don't carry a wallet,
so whenever I go home to New York, it's always
weird because I have to suddenly carry a wallet again.
So there's ubiquitous platforms like we Chat or the Chinese
version of pretty much all of our messaging platforms that's
(09:29):
used by everybody. And so suddenly instead of having this
feeling of I guess I shouldn't be spending so much
time on my phone. I really got to try to
get out more, do more things, you know, try to
control my use of technology. Now I'm fully in it.
So everything is going over my social media channels, everything
(09:51):
is going over my messaging platforms. I used to go
to the gym on a regular basis. I loved my gym,
like the people that were in it. It was in a
really beautiful location. And now I'm working out at home.
I'm ordering food in and cooking more so. Chinese love
to cook. So there's some issues about the ability of
fast food change to survive because people here in China
(10:11):
when they're at home actually cook, so ordering tremendous amounts
of fruits and vegetables and meats to their homes. And
there's great services here in China, even to get directly
in contact with smaller farmers. So all my friends now
are starting to contact me. So the coldness outside is
being replaced by a social media warmth. People are asking me,
am I okay, what am I doing? Can I help
(10:32):
them with things that they're writing? Can we do sports
or exercise together? Digitally? I mean, of course, listening to music.
I have a friend who's a DJ who's been helping
me with a project, who's her fame is growing and growing,
and she tells me about a new concert that she's
giving online. So she goes to huge clubs across Asia
and growing success in the US. And now she's going
(10:55):
to do a DJ set as part of a digital
club offered by QQ Music, which is the leading music
provider in China and owned by ten Set. And so
I'm able to join that basically digital disco and listen
to her music and her set, catch the set of
other DJs, catch the comments from people, catch videos, upload pictures,
(11:15):
and then suddenly I'm able to do sports at home,
eat at home, hang out with friends at home, be
able to enjoy music and play at home. So it's
starting to change everything dramatically. And I don't feel guilty
now for spending so much time on my phone or
on my laptop, because that's just what you can do,
that's the way things are.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
We just totally dig into all of this because all
of the things you're saying are so fascinating, right, like
this idea that people are like going to.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
I think that the term that someone said was cloud clubbing.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
So I think a lot of these services, whether it's
cloud clubbing or exercise get at home by numerous digital platforms,
has been out there for a while and it's been
slowly growing. As you know, electronic gaming is huge groups.
But once you're unable to go out and meet with
friends and there's a very clear restriction, then these opportunities
(12:07):
go from fun and nice to have to essential. So
for me, it was really nice. I could say, Wow,
I'm going to have this really awesome experience. I'm not
going to be isolated. I'm going to hear these really
cool DJs. I'm able to pop in comments, read the
comments from other people, upload videos or pictures be part
of this community. I can click people that have comments
(12:28):
that I like. The comments are coming in in all
different languages from all over China and all over Europe,
and so it's a pretty cool experience. Again in relationship
to me watching a video that I'm streaming, or me
just listening to music, how.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Does it actually work? Like take me, I mean, I
don't mean to kind of dig into but like, what
are you dancing at?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Like?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Right? So I think for me because it's electronic music, yeah,
there's a lot. From my perspective, I'm in a nice
comfortable chair. I'm moving my body and bobbing my head
as I'm listening to the music. So this is the
other funny thing. So I can dance or I can
jump around and take a little video, but I want
to comment to people. I want to share pictures. So
(13:15):
this is again the situation. You can sort of just
rock out if you want, but you can also interact
with other people. If you're gonna interact, you need to type.
So if you need to type, you need to sit
down or you need to be sort of standing as
we all are used to with our smartphones. So it's
a bit of a combination. I think. Also for me,
dancing by myself is phone for a couple of minutes,
but at some point I get a lot more sports,
(13:36):
as I mentioned earlier, watching a video of a plate's
instructor from New York, or yoga instructor from Hawaii, or
a hit trainer from Shanghai, So that tends to be
more my thing. I like looking out my window having
my headphones on. I can eat the snacks that I
want to have, I can hang out. I can also
invite friends to come and do this with me. Then
it's more of a dance. When I'm here with my
(13:59):
girlfriend Bag, then we can dance together. Then it's more fun,
but it's sort of dancing by myself. I prefer to
sort of sit in chair and sway and enjoy the
beats and type to people and share things digitally while
I'm enjoying the music.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
And have you noticed more of your friends doing a
lot of this since the coronavirus, since a lot of
this stuff started happening.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, of course. And I think what you're always doing
is you're looking for ways to share fun stuff with
your friends. So when I heard about this concert of course,
I share it with my friends. I shared it with
our mutual friend in New York, so he really got
into the idea. And so you're always looking for fun
things to share. It's like things to have a conversation
about online. So when I meet with people in real life,
(14:40):
we chat about what we're up to, what we're doing.
So I've got to find those similar things so be
able to join these kinds of events, and the events
provide a lot of cool images which you can download.
It becomes a nice conversation topic. I can then share
tunes from one of the DJs I heard about and
listen to them afterwards, so it's a nice way of
integrating your life. But the crazy thing is that this
cloud clib being experience I have is occurring about fifteen
(15:04):
twenty feet from where I sit and do my work,
so I haven't stopped working, and actually I've been working
pretty efficiently. So the place where I'm doing conference calls
and writing documents and editing and brainstorming, et cetera, is
also the space where I'm doing my sports, where I'm
grooving out to my favorite DJs, or where I'm chatting
with people. So things start to float together and I
(15:27):
like to view out my window because it reminds me
of exactly where I am. But these kinds of separations
between work and play and sports and sleep start to
melt together. And I've enjoyed that, but I'm not sure
that's always necessarily helpful for all people. And I've heard
that from friends. Some of them are able to work
even more efficiently at home, and other people are having
more issues getting motivated.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Okay, we've got to take a quick break to hear
from our sponsors more as my guests after the break.
(16:11):
So you've kind of described like how play has changed
for you. I mean, it just sounds like it's just
not around other people to a degree.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Do you miss human connection?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Like do you miss being at a dance club and
dancing with other people?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Do you miss that?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah? No, I totally do. And that's the eerie thing
is that it doesn't feel the same. It feels different.
It feels good. I mean, it's really nice to be connected.
It's great to have a super productive conference call with
your client because everybody's totally focused on the call because
there will be no fiscal meeting, not between you and
the client and not between the client and the other
members of the team, So real decisions have to be
(16:49):
made so you can listen to people much more carefully.
People are taking your documents more shares. We've got to
make a decision on this call. You know, we're on zoom,
we're sharing documents. This has to come to something that's
a good feeling. But it's not the same feeling of
seeing that reaction on somebody's face.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, I mean, I kind of read the message I
got tweeted. Cloud clubbing clubbing from your living room. During
virus restrictions, an extension of peloton to DJs and going
out with nightclubs closed and music events canceled for the
foreseeable future, a number of DJs and clubs in China
turning to cloud clubbing.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Cloud clubbing is where people.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Can go watch live DJ sets and send in messages
to give them the feeling that they're in the club.
The cloud clubbing events usually take place in apps, you know,
like China's TikTok. I mean, it's fascinating to me, you know,
just that the culture change that is likely happening because
of that, and the almost it feels like with what
you're discussing and what you're talking about so casually just
(17:41):
feels like an alternative universe.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Does that make.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Sense, Yeah, no, it does. I mean it's you're isolating.
So just imagine if you couldn't meet with your friends,
you couldn't go out to public prices, you had to
do everything on your own. So one of the great
things for people that are traditionally people that have physical issues,
people that have issues with their way, people that are
(18:06):
scared of crowds. There's a large number of people that
are already extremely isolated in our society, so things like
social media, things like digital worlds allow them a alternative
to the classic social lives that we need. In places
like Japan, these kinds of trends have already gone to extremes.
There are people who are already very seldom leave their
(18:27):
rooms or their homes, and I think there are a
lot of negative sides to all of this. However, it's
an interesting experiment, and I think that Beijing and Shanghai,
and obviously cities like Wuhan and Guangzhou that are much
more affected by the virus are excellent, excellent laboratories for
people to see what's happened. And I hope that researchers
(18:50):
and reporters spend time when this is all over because
it will most likely end, and to check out what happens.
What happens when people aren't able to congregate in traditional
patterns are then positive and negative issues. I don't know
what happens in a place like New York when there's
a blackout and people shouldn't go outside, but very often
those kinds of situations, the technology also doesn't work. The
(19:11):
interesting situation here is that all of the digital networks
are working perfectly, all the systems are working perfectly. The
only issue is this unseen virus which is out there
encouraging to stay inside. So again, I think if especially
if you have somebody to stay with or a small
group of people that you can see on a periodic basis,
it's kind of an interesting world.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I love how you describe it as like an experiment,
Like when all this is over, like what experiment did
we just do? Like what do you think this moment
represents for technology? Because this has always been out there,
like this idea of like kind of you know, we've
had second life in the past, We've had this idea,
and people in tech are talking about augmented reality, virtual reality,
living in these virtual worlds like peloton right, Like this
(19:54):
idea of even working out with people and you know,
and having people in the background and you're kind of
virtually we're out with other folks, Like this is not
you know, this idea of personal tech, like this isn't new.
But something about this and something about this world that
you're painting for us, and this picture that you're describing
of your life right now as you sit there kind
of isolated from other people. It certainly seems like an
(20:18):
interesting experiment as to where we could be going and
where some of these trends are, and like, I don't
know where we go, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, I think if you take off the parental guidance
of your teenager, your child who just loves to chattel
day with their friends and spend time on their laptop.
What if you just let them go for a week
and they never left their room and you brought them food.
It would change everything. And I think this is also
we spend time trying to control ourselves. No, don't go
(20:49):
out with your friends and look at your phone the
entire time. We try to control the encroachment of digital technologies.
In our life. But when this quarantine happen and suddenly
you stop doing that, so you're just like, okay, I'm
in the digital world now. I no longer say to myself, Shapiro,
put down your phone and go outside, like hey, go
(21:09):
meet with your friends. So it's all of a sudden
that's all gone. So there's no longer an excuse or
a push or rationalization to take yourself out of the tech,
so you just fall into it. You say, well, this
is my life right now, So I don't have to
go down the hall and talk with Lily or with
Leang or the other members of my team. I can
just chat with them. So all of a sudden, all
(21:31):
those physical means that we normally use to interact with people,
to have experiences to go out and explore are gone.
So we use the digital alternatives. We take them much
more seriously, We carefully look at it. So suddenly I
started to explore apps that I said, do I really
need another app? Do I really need more digital in
my life? Now It's like, hell, yeah, give me more digital.
(21:53):
I've got to find more fun things to do. I've
got to find new ways to communicate with my friends
and my clients show something which I tried to keep
till three or four hours a day. Boom is eight
hours a day. I think it's an interesting experiment, and
I think again, instead of just fearing it, people need
to sort of imagine an experiment with what would happen
if they didn't go out for a week, they didn't
(22:16):
interact with their friends. What are the positives and the negatives,
and how they can manage a better because there's obviously
a dark side to it. There are people that can
completely disconnect or have largely disconnected from society, and without
that push or that feeling that this isn't really a
good thing, that there are side effects, it becomes a difficulty.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I had to take this to you right, Like we're
speaking so broadly about this, Like what about you. You're
spending more and more time online as you talk about
in this isolation state. You are the experiment right now,
you are living the experiment. What's the negative impact for you?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah? I think the negative impact for me is that
I stop really planning ahead, I stop questioning. I really
like a flow lifestyle. I tend to work towards that anyway,
dealing with issues as they come. I'm extremely critical. It's
part of my job doing strategy to constant question things.
(23:13):
But I start doing it' had a much much higher rate,
And I've also stopped filtering as much. So when I
see information that I really like digitally, I comment right away,
now this is really great. Wow, this is awesome. Thanks
for sharing. And when I see things that are superficial
or that I feel to be ill informed. When I
catch friends in the States making fun of the coronavirus
(23:34):
or silly jokes, I start defriending them. So all of
a sudden, I start taking a lot of the things
on social media and digitally a lot more serious, and
I start pulling them apart more because it's becomes so
much more important, and I'm in the past I would say,
well that was just silly. Let it slide. Somebody's just
posting something dumb on social media. People don't think on
a regular basis that person's not very critical. They're just
(23:57):
cutting and pasting because they feel they need to make
a post. Now, all of a sudden, I'm like, no,
it's not okay to post useless, superficial or hurtful things.
And I don't want to flame this person. I don't
even want them on my stream anymore. So it's interesting
I've started to disconnect myself from people that I feel
don't post quality things, don't know how to write a
(24:18):
proper message, aren't really dealing with things. And then I've
seen other people who have responded, whether it's in the
US or here in China, who have been very very thoughtful,
who have reached out in very constructive, intelligent ways. And
I'm starting now because I'm so dependent on this stream
to edit out anything that isn't of a certain quality level,
and I think that's obviously going to affect my diversity.
(24:39):
It's made me much more critical and focused, and I think,
to some extent more extreme digitally. When it becomes such
an important aspect of my life.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
It's almost like, you know, we're having this conversation about
technology and how we really need to moderate our use
and take a step back from it, and it's almost
like you just like swallow the red pill, right, Like
you just like went all the way in and this
is kind of your mechanism to survive this moment.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I used to go out and do sports all the time.
Now I don't go out and do sports, so I
do everything in my living room. There's so much stuff
online for sports, It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
What do you do, Like can you just like paint
a picture? Like can you give us like a visual
image of what your day looks like in your home?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Right? So the most important thing is when you're in
the sort of cocoon phase, is to jump start your morning. Right,
So I get out of bed, got to sing a
little song to myself, jump in the down baking noises,
got to say, okay, now the day is starting to
throw up all the curtains. I've been doing a lot
of plates and yoga first thing in the morning, which
I never did before. So I hate the morning. I
don't want to get out of bed. I'm not going
(25:42):
to go to the gym first thing in the morning.
But Brigita and I wake up, we drink our coffee.
We try to do yoga or plates right away. Because
yoga and plates are made for an apartment. So the
videos and the sports that we can do have to
be carefully made for a space which fits in with
our living. We have open up the shades, we look outside,
(26:02):
we can open up the windows, but we get into that.
We can do an hour, we can do ninety minutes,
we can do two or three different videos. We like
to find people that have funny accents. So we found
this woman who's a plate's instructor in Australia and she
Ali says noise, you know. And we have a guy
in New York who's motivating us to get going. There's
(26:23):
people from Japan, there's people from China who are talking
and helping you through. There's an old yoga instructor named
Rodny who does a yoga class on top of a
hill in Hawaii. It's a very very very different experience. Then,
of course you've got to take your shower and then
slide checking your phone after you've turned it off because
you're working out. All of a sudden, there's messages, clients
(26:45):
want to speak for you. You have to organize phone calls,
you have to organize meetings, you have to look at work.
And then that goes into that flow, and then somehow
we figure when it is time for lunch, when our
flow digital information calms down and we both find a
good spot, we can then turn our phones off and
try to enjoy a lunch. But of course then suddenly
the phone little buzz is So this issue of your
(27:07):
free time, talking with your partner, enjoying your meals, enjoying
your spare time. All flows together. So I'm answering messages
from friends, from colleagues, from clients, from strangers who are
contacting me through other friends who want to know how
I'm doing, who are asking me questions. All very very
elegantly flows together. And I think that's the scary part
(27:28):
is that the day goes by really fast, right, So
there's almost no period of time when I'm like super bored.
There's not a period of time where there's something missing,
so it just all flows together. And then suddenly it
goes from being nine in the morning when I start working,
or nine thirty or ten to one o'clock and then
having some lunch which slows things down, and then boom,
(27:49):
it's suddenly six or seven, and then we stop for dinner.
We can go out for a walk, play some frisbee outside,
but again it's just the two of us. When we
come back. We can spend time looking at entertainment together,
listening to music together, but it all flows to it
and day goes by really really quickly. So digital time
for me, especially if you're doing something interesting, it's much
much faster, so some to days have flown by.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
What do you think about this term isolation technology?
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yeah it is. I mean I am isolated. I am
isolated with other people. I'm in a bubble, but I'm
not going out and talking to people, So I'm isolated
here in my apartment. I don't receive visitors. If somebody
brings me a package, the package has to be left
at the door. I'm not allowed to interact with people.
I don't really think the delivery guy like I used to.
(28:36):
I don't chat with him like I used to. So
it's me and my bubble, requesting things, looking at things,
interacting with things. But there's no people. Like I said,
even the guards who I used to chat with and
who I adore have masks on, are giving me distance.
So there's warmth and interaction, but it's all digital, so
it changes everything. And so as you know, digital technologies
(28:57):
are always a watered down or disrupted version of our
real So a real conversation is much more impactive than
a digital conversation. So there's all these multiple flows of
much softer, much less impactful conversation. So it creates this
very dreamlike flow in your life and there's not as
much ups and downs as you would have in the
(29:17):
real life, where expressions or tastes or interactions are much
more powerful. So here suddenly things are much softer, Things
are much more gliding together. If something doesn't work, I
can quickly slide into something else. I can ask things
I'm not really looking at time the same way I'm
looking at more in terms of blocks, not really in
terms of a larger concept. Everything is relatively easy to do.
(29:39):
I can quickly establish a call, I can quickly order food.
But the level of impact and effectiveness or the amount
of emotions I feel with each experience as much life,
But it's just a lot more.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Okay, we've got to take a quick break to hear
from our sponsors more as my guests after the break.
Do you worry that in some of this like cloud
(30:15):
clubbing or I think someone used the term peloton disco
tech or something.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Can you describe that really quick for us?
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah? I think for me, having the sort of peloton
disco tech concept of life where you're just having these
experiences with other individuals from far flung locations, creates this
feeling that the world is like your digital concierge. Should
bring you things. The more you pay, the higher level
of service you have. The more you pay, the more
(30:46):
features you get. And why not have music services brought
to you bi Peloton? Why not have other social interactions?
So this is always the dream, and I suppose is
justifying evaluations, is the Peloton screen should do more for
me right now? After staying at home. I want the
videos and the experiences I pull from YouTube. I want more.
What if I want to pay for somebody to provide
(31:09):
a service to me via that video screen as Peloton is,
I want to upgrade it. I wanted to go into
other areas. And I think that's the scary point, you know,
Why go out and listen and experience or take up
a one on one class or a lesson with somebody
when I can have many more experiences digitally so well,
that time spen traveling and all the rest disappears. I mean,
(31:29):
for me, it was a real shock that Peloton was
so successful after soul Cycle and all these other locations
were showing such a strong growth as well. Why would
somebody who's successful and wealthy want to sit in their
living room and spin when they could go to a
really cool class downtown but now I don't know why.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I mean, you understand it now in a new way.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
You think, Yeah, no, I totally do. So I get
to do more lower quality things. So I can't imagine
that being on a peloton is better than going to
a kick soul cycle class. I mean, I've tried both,
and I'd rather be in a soul cycle class. But
what I do appreciate now is the ability to get
out of my bed, go into the living room, do
(32:10):
an amazing workout. I can then get through. I can
then have the kinds of beverages and the food that's
super healthy, slide right into work and it's all super seamless. Now,
if I have to get up, I have to go
out to the gym, right, I'm gonna go to the gym.
I'm going to have this intense tym experience. But then
I'm probably gonna go out and eat it a restaurant afterwards.
It probably not gonna eat as healthy. The entire experience
(32:31):
is probably gonna be four hours five hours. If I
had kept it all at home, it'd probably all be
about two hours. So I can do much more by
never leaving my house. Now, if I have the resources
and the finances and the knowledge that I have.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
I mean, so the relationship with time changes, your relationship
with people change. What do you think is the biggest
thing that's getting lost during this whole digital experiment that
you seem to be swimming in.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah, I think I'm obviously losing time just by myself.
So even though I'm isolated, I'm constantly connected. So that
walk that I take now by myself or with Berget
is really important because I get to disconnect and not
constantly react, which I think is really important, just the
(33:17):
need to just do nothing. So even though I'm isolated,
I'm not doing nothing. I'm constantly playing with devices. I've
gotten to this digital world totally, and it's really important
to turn off. So I've lost a lot of that
turnoff time, which I thought would have happened more it is.
And I think it's important periodically to be a bit bored,
to just see what happens, to stumble into things. And
(33:38):
I think now our digital words are so algorithm that
we don't really just stumble upon things anymore. We hear
about things from friends, we search for things in our
searches are pushed and pulled in different directions, so that
ability to sort of like go through a flea market
and see what happens. Walk down the street and randomly
things jump out at you as a kid, and there's
(33:59):
a stranger, there's an old ladies singing. That's all gone.
So everything feels very very much put inside of an
algorithm driven channel for me where things are organized by
other people, and that kind of spontaneity doesn't exist online anymore,
doesn't exist digitally anymore. People know my patterns. I can
see it now. So it's just the more and more
you spend, the more and more your devices learn, the
(34:20):
more and more you lean into them, you just start
flowing into these patterns of behavior which are really scary.
I mean, they're nice, it's like fast food, but it's
really really you find yourself just taking these easier digital
paths instead of exploring these things.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
I can't help but think.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
We had Professor Moran Surf on First Contact an episode
called like Hacking your Brain to order Dreams on demand,
and it was a fascinating episode, and you know, I
asked him, what do you think is the single most
important ethical issue coming down the pipeline?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
And he said, young people as they grow up.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
He's like people are going to stop having I think
he said something along the lines of like aren't going
to have sexual relationships anymore. People are gonna stop connecting
in like a sexual way. And so I guess I
think about this from what you're talking about with the
rise of isolation tech. You talk about having a girlfriend,
and it sounds like you're lucky that you have a
(35:12):
girlfriend during this and that you guys can spend a
lot of time together and what seems like a very isolating, scary,
lonely time in China. But we talk about cloud clubbing, right,
this weird concept, but it sounds like millions and if
you look at some of the stats, and there's been
some writing on this, millions of people are showing up
in these virtual clubs to spend time with one another
(35:33):
on comment, but no one's touching, like, no one's talking, no.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
One's making out right, Like I mean, you.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Know, physical connection is the thing that seems to be
lost in some of this digital overdose. So do you
worry that as we you know, and hopefully we will
get through this scary time, but do you worry that
with the rise of this and this is kind of
like this microcosm for this moment of digital and what's
(36:03):
kind of coming down the pipeline. And maybe this is
just putting this out there in a bigger way, but like,
do you worry that that maybe as we see this
trend happening, like we're all going to be spending time
with one another but not being with each other and
having intimacy.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
No, I totally agree, and I think it's already happening.
So if you look at as I mentioned before, countries
like Japan, even here in China and the US, rates
of just having sex are going down. People are no
longer as intimate as they used to be. With the
whole met too movement in the States, I can also
assume that these kinds of sexual interactions are becoming much
(36:41):
more fraud It's just easier not to do it. And
now with all the digital alternatives through pornography or other
forms of sexual expression digitally, it's going to push it
even farther. So this is again for me, extremely frightening.
I mean, I grew up in the seventies and I'm
used to as much physical contact as I can possibly
(37:03):
muster with the people that I adore, and playing sports
like basketball in New York that's all going away and
it's going to continue, and in this situation with the
coronavirus just exacerbates it. I think what's interesting again is
that we still always joke when I was growing up
that there's always one day of the year when you're
an alcoholic where you're not an alcoholic anymore, and that's
of course, on New Year's Eve. There are a lot
(37:25):
of people that just don't find it comfortable or easy
to be with other people, that don't find it comfortable
to be social, and right now, for them, it's like
New Year's Eve. They have no stigma there. It can
stay at home the whole day, they can have no
physical interaction. I've also heard over the years that i've
been here where people know colleagues that don't really want
to go to rooms or talk with people. They're messaging
(37:48):
people that are in a cubicle twenty feet away from
them having intense conversations, which I've seen. So I think
that isolation trend is already going on now. For me,
it's horrifying. But the question is, is you know for
another Jeed generation if they prefer to live in isolation. Yeah,
it's scary for me and it's sad, but I see
it really as an inevitability. And what's crazy here in
(38:10):
China is that people didn't suddenly were bold teenagers. Weren't saying, yeah,
let's just create our own underground club. Fuck the rules,
just go out and have fun. They didn't do that.
You know. People were much more critical about how the
virus was being handled. But people were okay with staying
at home. People were okay with not going to work,
people were okay with ordering all their food and home
(38:31):
or cooking at home. People seem to be able to
manage it. There wasn't a huge amount of unrest. There
wasn't a huge amount of reactions to this as it were,
for example, to Hong Kong, to other political issues. So
it's kind of scary, but I think that this is
just another example of how this direction will continue. I mean,
we're not going to get less digital. I think the
(38:51):
other fascinating thing is that simpler is better. So the
technologies people are turning to are not more and more complicated.
They're just using those simple, fast, easy flowing to technologies
more and more. And maybe that's one of the reason
why peloton works well, because it's so easy to use.
You don't have to learn a new piece of software,
you don't have complicated formulas to fill out. And most
of the technologies that are taking off here, and the
(39:12):
delivery services that are working well are those same old
classical services. So a Facebook or an Instagram or a
snap are just going to grow. So here, JD dot
COM's the delivery online retailer for food and for most essentials.
It's the biggest distributor of food related items. Had a
tremendous quarter. There's stock skyrocketed yesterday. So I don't see
(39:34):
that stop, you know.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
And also, we're facing so much uncertainty in the world
right now. It's wildfires one place, you've got coronavirus, it's
political unrest, and so I can't help but think there's
this other trend that we're seeing online and that there's
just there's something there and people connecting, I don't know,
and people kind of retreating in some capacity.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
I don't think it's random.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
I think there's certainly something about this moment that feels
very uncertain.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, but the cloud disco Go is there for you. You know,
it says don't worry about it, you know, come to
the peloton discothech. It's cool man. So it's all crazy
out there, But hey, stay at home. You don't have
to go out. You don't even have to. You know,
you can engage in politics, just do it all digitally,
like you can do your sports. You can do everything.
Why bother going outside or why even bother starting a
physical relationship with one person when you could have hundreds
(40:24):
of superficial digital relationships. I mean, this is the thing
that shocked me when I first came to Asia was
going out to really cool, totally lit up disco with
amazing DJs. And some of the discos in Beijing or
in Shining Hot or in Tokyo have some amazing visual effects,
or in Soul and you see a table full of
twenty somethings, super good looking and really well dressed, anywhere
(40:48):
from eight to twelve of them, all around the table
with big bottles of alcohol, and they're all looking at
their phones all the time. There's a really nice CJ going,
nobody's dancing. So how far away is it from this?
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Did we just write a black Mirror episode together? Or
are we living in one?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
I think the crazy thing is that the Black Mirror
episode is happening in slow motion relatively speaking, So we're
sliding into it. So this is the question, like, it's
gonna happen, right, We're going to get us into a
situation where people are living more and more via social media,
as if we already weren't. Right, you know, there's all
(41:26):
the joke about oh, what happens if you lose your phone?
What happens to your life? Yeah, and we joke about it,
but should we really be joking about it? So the
last chance to pull people back from this digital bubble
is now. If we wole all do it now, it's gone. Right,
there's going to be a moment where you're going to
go into one hundred percent digital state for a period
of time because of a version of a Corona or
(41:47):
some kind of a disaster, and you're going to see
and if you like it, there is no reason for
you to come back. The stigma is going to slowly disappear.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
From the guy who's currently living in digital bubble land, right, Right.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
But I was already here. I mean that's the thing.
When I go back to New York, there's a lot
more interaction, right, I don't have the same kind of
initiative asking my friends to put the phone down or
watching the groups. So it is still a much more
of a go out and enjoy things. It's already slid
into that direction. I just have a feeling that it's
not going to stop.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Do you feel like you're in the matrix?
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Oh yeah, yeah. I think the thing is that the
matrix is there for everybody. It's just that are you
in the matrix one hundred percent or fifty percent? You know?
Are you in the matrix four hours a day or
eight hours a day? And everybody has their own matrix.
So I think that's the thing too, the sort of
belief that there's sort of one big matrix out there,
role in it. Everybody's got their own matrix. I wish
(42:40):
a lot of the digital services knew me better and
woul stopped sending me advertising our information that I had
absolutely no interest in. So my matrix consists of my clients.
It's consists of the people that I love. It's my family.
It's I build my matrix. And now that I'm in
it more and more, I'm grooming it more. I'm kicking
people out and information out and apps out and putting
(43:01):
other ones in because hey, wait, this is my world. Now,
so I'm taking much better care of it, which is
good and bad too, because what it does is I'm
sort of creating a matrix that has less resistance, that
has higher quality, which in turn then meets my needs
more and pushes me further in So I think the
important part is at some point to just not turn
(43:22):
it down the volume of my matures, but literally turn
it off. And I think that's something that I'm beginning
to realize and trying to do more and more, is
literally leave all the devices at home, go outside for
a walk. Have things happen to you in a random fashion.
Because things in the digital world are controlled, and they're
controlled by you, and they're repetitive and they're easy and
(43:43):
they're comforting. And that's a problem. If I want to
really challenge myself and see new things, if I want
spontaneous things to happen, I got to go outside. Algorithms
are not spontaneous.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
My last question for you, Dander, are you afraid?
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Oh yeah, I'm afraid of all the time. I like fear.
I mean, fear for me is really important. That's one
of the things that I hate when I go back
to those dates is that people aren't really critical. You know,
people don't want to be scared of things. People hate, conflict,
these are all really important things. So yeah, I'm totally scared.
I think the interesting about coronavirus is reminds me that
the most dangerous thing on the planet is other people.
(44:21):
When I look at politics, either in China or the US, again,
it's people. So I get really scared of people. I
get scared of what people are able to do. I
get scared of what people are able to believe. I
get scared of how quickly people are willing to do
without things as you had mentioned, like physical contact or sex.
They're willing to give that up for me is frightening.
At the same time, the compassion and the warmth that
(44:42):
I've experienced from people, and when I take good care
of my digital networks, how many amazing conversations and experiences
I can have just sitting down and carefully writing texts
between another intelligent person. I know for a while how
good that can be. Writing letters back and forth basically
to friends, or hearing their voices, or talking more now
to my mom, which I haven't done enough. And this
(45:02):
isolation is allowing me to reach out more and do
some of those things calmly in an appropriate state of
mind that I want is really really hopeful. But yeah,
I mean it is frightened. It is very very scary
to imagine a world where people just don't touch each
other anymore.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Well, I think it's a good way to end it.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Maybe also a good reminder to call our parents or
tell someone we love them. So thank you for that,
and we'll be thinking about you, and maybe I'll see
you in a cloud club one day or maybe in
real life, hopefully in real life, have a wonderful one,
and take care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Okay, Okay, thank you.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Okay, guys, So if you're sitting at home and listening
to this by yourself, I'm assuming you're feeling a little
bit weird. That obviously gave it gave me a lot
to think about. I don't know about you, but I
would love to hear from you. What do you want
to hear more of? How did that make you feel?
I'm trying out this new community number so you can
text me, and I swear this actually goes directly.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
To my phone.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
The number is nine one seven five four zero three
four one zero, So text me and here's a personal request.
If you like the show, leave us a review on
the Apple podcast app or wherever you listen to your podcasts,
and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. You can
follow me I am at Lori Siegel on Twitter and Instagram,
and the show is at First Contact Podcast. On Instagram
(46:32):
and on Twitter, you can find us We're at First
Contact Pod. First Contact is a production of Dot dot
Dot Media. Executive produced by Lori Siegel and Derek Dodge,
and this episode was produced and edited by Sabine Jansen
and Jack Reagan. Original theme music by Xander Singh. First
(46:52):
Contact with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot dot
Dot Media and iHeartRadio
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