June 8, 2020 • 43 mins
It's no secret to anyone: Tech has a major diversity problem. And it's not getting better. How do we finally start making the necessary changes to fix the glaring inequity in Silicon Valley? How do we change the makeup of board members, make companies more diverse, and start putting our money where our mouth is? Venture Capitalist Sarah Kunst is someone who’s not afraid to speak out. She’s been leading a discussion on minorities in tech for a long time. She's made it her life’s work to change things for the better. These are times of listening and learning. We all have to do a better job of informing ourselves, listening to others, and changing our behavior. So let’s listen to Sarah Kunst.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
First contact with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot
Dot Dot Media and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
We don't travel anymore. And it seemed impossible if you'd
told anybody on February first that you will not be
on a plane from March fifteenth until god knows when,
people would have said that's impossible, that's impossible, possible. The
impossible has become possible, right, So we know how quickly
things can change, but you have to have the will
to do it. So I think that what these companies
(00:29):
and what these powerful people to your point, who are
disproportionately white and male, are going to have to grapple
with is this isn't working. And our employees are telling
us it's not working. The press ishilliness, it's not working,
the protests are telling it's not working. Right, this isn't working.
They realize that the time is passed where they can say,
do we think we should act? And the answer is
(00:51):
we have to act. There is a business imperative, and
I think that there is a moral imperative. And I
think that Silicon Valley can't sit this out any longer.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I love technology, I love Silicon Valley. I've spent my
career covering it. I'm also frustrated sometimes it feels like
we're asking the same questions over and over and over again.
I've known Sarah Kunst as a person who will say
things that other people won't say, who will call out
inappropriate behavior. She's quick to speak, not just tweet. She's
(01:33):
been leading a discussion on the unforst situations for minorities
in tech for a long time. She's been a big
supporter of funding women, and I know her as someone
who's made it her life's work to change those things
for the better. My question right now that I want
to ask everyone in tech, while there is momentum, how
do we make sure we finally start making the necessary
(01:55):
changes in the tech industry that it's not just about
changing our profile photos, but it's about changing the makeup
of the boards, making companies more diverse, changing legislation, and
putting our money where our mouth is. I know these
are times of listening and learning. We all have to
do a better job of informing ourselves and listening to
others and changing our behaviors. So let's listen to Sarah Kunst.
(02:19):
I'm Laur Siegel, and this is first contact. First of all,
it is so nice to see. I know, it's so
nice to see your fake goodness. So I wanted to
start by just talking about our first contact. Right, So
first of all, for folks listening, like, we've known each
other for a really long time, especially in tech years,
(02:42):
Like do you remember our first contact.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
We've known each other I think for two recessions now,
which is quite a long time.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Oh when you say it like that, it sounds so
so long, it sounds so long.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, I mean I remember, you know, back when we
were both living in New York and we were sort
of young, young people just starting out in the tech industry.
And you know, it's one of those things where the
tech industry there at the time was so small that
you know, if you went to three parties in two bars,
you knew everybody, and so it was a fun time
because it really did feel like a community.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yeah, and I remember meeting you it actually that it's
such an interesting thing. You brought up the recession. We've
talked about this in prior episodes, Like there was a
lot of innovation happening and coming out of the recession, right,
there were a lot of really interesting companies that were
coming out of it. And there was this movement in
New York because people always think San Francisco tech, but
(03:37):
there was this movement in New York tech and you
had a lot of founders just going and coding different
apps and being creative and doing all sorts of stuff.
And there was a very small group of people. And
I remember meeting you then and it was that was
our first content. I think it was at a party
in Soho, not to be specific. So that was cool.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
The only place to meet anybody in twenty ten was
a party in Soho.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Right right, and by the way, like those seem like
happy times. And I've been wanting to have you on
for a while because you've done so much work I
think as an entrepreneur and as an investor too, and
talking about a lot of issues and something I've always
liked about you, Sarah, and to give I always like
to kind of paint a picture of the people I
(04:20):
interview for our listeners, Like you're the person that says
the unpopular thing or not the unpopular thing. You're just
like the person who says things out loud. You will
say things when other people won't. You will call people out.
You know, we talk about us, you know, being in
tech back in the day, like you have said things
to investors who have behaved inappropriately. You have been talking
(04:44):
about how things are unfair for minorities and tech for
a very long time, and so it seems appropriate for
me to have you on now, but I should have
had you on before. So I'm really happy to be
speaking to you right now because what an extraordinary moment
we're in. Yeah, thank you with everything going on. First
of all, how are you feeling about everything? How are
you doing?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
You're in San Francisco, I mean San Francisco, Yeah, I
mean it. You know, it has been an absolutely insane
couple of weeks on top of an insane you know,
a couple of months, and when it comes to, you know,
issues around racism in America, and on top of it,
on top of an insane you know, four hundred years right, So,
on one hand, what's happening right now feels unbelievable. And
(05:25):
on the other hand, do you remember that America is
a country that started out with you know, started out
with genocide and then moved to slavery. And you're like, actually,
I guess these protests kind of makes sense, right. It's
probably more a question of certainly, you know, we saw
some of this stuff in the nineteen sixties, but it's
probably more of a question of why did it take
so long instead of why is it happening now?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, And I mean I've always looked at things through
the lens of tech, and like I had this moment
where I was looking at all these venture capitalists we
know and a lot of people we know who are
you know, talking about black Lives matter? And I'm so
happy to see people out there and post and voicing
their support. But my question to you would be, you know,
there's so many issues and tech right, and there are
(06:07):
so many larger issues around this. The numbers and tech
are pretty terrible for minorities. I think I was looking
and doing research for this. Someone from Upfront Ventures posted
blacks are underrepresented in the executive ranks of startups by
eighty two percent. More than seventy five percent of all
rounds raised go to all white founding teams. So, you know,
(06:29):
my first reaction as I was watching this whole movement
happening in tech and watching a lot of the people
I know changing some of their profiles and posting a
lot of stuff, was this is great change your profile,
but also change your boards, change all these other things.
And so how are you feeling about I mean, what
do you think about stuff happening in your own backyard?
(06:50):
Do you think things will change because of this?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You know, I've been drawing a lot of comparisons to
the Me Too movement and what happened in tech then,
and you know, having been very involved in that, It's
one of those things where, you know, the Reverend Jesse
Jackson likes to say that in moments like this, they're
kind of tree shakers and jelly makers, right. So there
are people who shake the tree, the people out protesting,
(07:13):
the people who are saying this is absolutely like, this
is We're done. Right, It's been four hundred years, we
are not doing this anymore. This is done, and this
being you know, racism and the systemic discrimination against people
of color, particularly obviously black people. Right. So those are
the people who are out there shaking the trees. And
then the jelly makers are the people who aren't necessarily
(07:33):
always on the front lines protesting, but who are sitting
there saying, you know, what can we do to change legislation,
What can we do to change hiring practices? What can
we do to make our boards murdivers, to make the
companies we invest in more diverse, to make the investor
based mortiverse.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
And we know from research that whatever your investor demographics
look like, your investments tend to look like.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So if funds hire women, then they invest in more women.
And I think almost no funds, no large scale funds,
have a mandate when they hire a woman, saying, of
course you're supposed to invest in women. It's just that
we tend to gravitate towards what we know. So, you know,
we know that that works. And we know that there
are certain groups in tech that are incredibly underrepresented, right.
Black people incredibly underrepresented, you know, Hispanic people incredibly underrepresented, right.
(08:19):
Native Americans are underrepresented to the point where they barely
exist in tech, right. And so we know that these
groups are underrepresented, and we also know from data that
if we have more of them around the investing table, right,
that will invest in more of them because there's not
really a lot. There's certainly not a lack of talent,
and maybe five ten years ago there is a lack
of founders in these demographics because they were very reasonably
(08:43):
looking at you know, the inability to get funded and
saying maybe I don't want to start a company, right,
maybe I should be a lawyer, doctor, whatever. Now we're
seeing something different, and we're seeing that there are a
lot of founders of these demographics who are brilliant, amazing.
They're coming from top schools, they're coming out of top companies.
You know, they are ready to go. They just deeply
struggle to get money raised.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, I mean, I guess I think about it, and
I think about the circles that we've been in in
Silicon Valley, and I think about the rooms that we've
had the privilege of being in and.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Sometimes misfortune of being in.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
But yes, right right, I mean, actually we should also
we can have that whole conversation. I mean, you're you
are one of the women that called out an investor
for bad behavior and harassment and this started like a whole,
a whole thing where a lot of other women spoke
out against it. So yes, that that as well. But yeah,
(09:38):
we we have access to the room. But you're a
woman of color. I mean, there are not a lot
of people, you know that look like you in the
room all the time, you know, And so I wonder,
like it is a boys club. And so while there's
this momentum right now and this feels different hopefully, I mean, god,
(09:58):
I want there to be changed, like, you know, specifically
in Silicon Valley. You know, I get frustrated, right, like
how many times have we heard the company line? And
even as you know, as someone of privilege and as
someone in the media, and I have a responsibility too,
like what can we actually do to just not hear
(10:19):
the company line over and over again so we can
get more more people actually getting funded, more companies from
diverse perspectives. You know, what do you think specifically, are
like some action items that we could do?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, you know the great thing is right that that's
easy and it's easy, but it doesn't mean that it
is simple, right, and so it's easy and that I
love to use the example of crypto, right, I was
really early in bitcoin, and you know, I love to
use as an example. Where before bitcoin was invented right
by whoever Satoshi is, it didn't exist. And then now
(10:54):
a decade later, almost every big fund has a crypto
expert on staff, has invested in crypto companies, has made
a bunch of money, right, And so black people have
certainly existed right far longer than bitcoin. And so the
idea that you can't go out and find a source
of viewpoints, right worldview and voices that you haven't already
had in your fund or in your company, and that
(11:16):
you can't bring them in and that you can't empower
them to do great work and give them real capital
is demonstrably false, because we've seen people do that in
crypto right. People woke up in maybe twenty thirteen and said, Hey,
crypto's a real thing. We're going to go out, We're
going to you know, do some listening. We're going to
learn about it, we're going to talk to experts, we're
going to get to know people in this space. We're
going to make some small bets, and then we're going
(11:37):
to make some large bets, and we're going to bring
people in to do this full time. And they did
it right. Within a year or two and twenty twelve,
almost no major fund at a crypto investor, and now,
you know, sit by twenty eighteen, almost every fund did.
So if you can make that kind of change in
that short amount of time, take that playbook right that
you just ran. This wasn't twenty years ago. This was
five years ago, three years ago, and go and do
(11:59):
it around diversity. And we saw some of this post
me too, where companies said, oh, should we hire women?
The answer is well, yes, right, because there's really only
two answers to this. You either fundamentally truly believe that
only white men are capable of greatness, in which case
you're probably not listening to this podcast and please stop
listening to this podcast, or you are acknowledging that if
(12:23):
you're only working with white men, but there's greatness everywhere,
and there's talent everywhere, that you're leaving money on the table. Right, Like,
I'm a venture capitalist. I'm not a full time activist, right.
I am a venture capitalist. It is my job to
take capital and make more money with it. And so
if I am leaving money on the table, I'm not
doing my job.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Okay, we've got to take a quick break to hear
from our sponsors more with my guest after the break.
I look at even the controversy of Facebook right now.
(13:07):
I look at this idea that there's this controversial decision
over free speech and decision that Zuckerberg made, and a
lot of people are talking about it and saying a
lot of employees are beginning to speak out against it.
But what's interesting, and I think it was reported that
that decision was made and there was only one person
of color in the room, So there's a lack of
(13:28):
diversity of perspective. And you know, I guess, like this
isn't a news story. And the time that we've had
our quote first contact, Like how many times have we
had this conversation? But I guess that maybe is the point, right,
how many times do we have to have this conversation
because now there's real world impact and we're seeing it
(13:48):
trickle out in these ways that are in many cases
unhealthy for society. And so you know, what are you
hearing you talk to people? I feel like you're kind
of everyone's confessional and like everyone tells you kind of
like their war stories. I have all the tea, I
have all Yeah, you have like all the tea, Like, like,
(14:09):
what are you hearing like from people within these companies?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
That's the thing, right, Like my like probably starting like
like Friday Saturday last week when you know this happened,
George Floyd was murdered, you know, like, oh my god,
like less than two weeks ago, and it feels like
a thousand years ago, right, and since then that has
just you know, the the amount of phone calls, texts inbounds,
(14:33):
you know, emails and ask for what do we do?
What do we say?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Right?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I spent the weekend helping portfolio companies and my investors,
you know, craft their statements and you know, what do
we say? Who do we donate to? What do we do?
And the great news is there are things that people
can do right now, in this moment that make massive differences.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
If you donate to the Bail project, you are literally
bailing out a protester who is out there saying, you
know what, black lives matter, but they can't afford the
bail right, and so you're like helping in the moment.
And that is so important right when you say you know, hey,
black lives matter right on your Twitter account, your Instagram
or and your emails to your companies and in externally. Yes,
(15:12):
at some point it feels like every company is just
saying it to check the box. But let me be
very clear that that's an important box to check, right,
because you need to say, when we live in a
world where it is not inherently obvious to every human,
that black lives matter, right, that my life matters as
much as your life and as much as anyone else's life. Right,
then we need to say that. But that's the bare minimum.
(15:32):
That's where you start. And I'm glad that people are
donating and glad that people are like really honestly truly
saving lives and helping to fund policy changes in real time.
But that's a beginning point. That's not an end point, right,
because the policy changes need to happen. But on the
other hand, you know, there's a lot we can do
without policy. I work and venture capital, it's private equity, right,
we don't really interact with the government much. So what
(15:54):
the government's doing doesn't have a ton of impact on
our industry. It's what we choose to do with the money.
And so you know, I've getting a lot of inbounds
from people are saying what do we do? And I say,
you know, think about your hiring, right, think about your
companies hiring. Think about the board seats right that you
have and that you control. You know, what are you
doing to explicitly go out and look for this and
(16:15):
bring it in and support it? Right? And there's tons
of great organizations already, you know, on the education side,
like Code twenty forty and Black Girls Code, and you
know there are organizations like Black Women Talk Tech and
you know Black v See. There's not a lack of
these things, right, These people are not hard to find.
My LinkedIn inbox, you know, has been overflowing all week
(16:37):
as I've been having these conversations with various media outlets.
People can find you, right, People can find you, and
there's also endless resources online about how to do this.
But at the end of the day, if you're a
venture fund or you know, an elite tech company and
you are like, we only really recruit from Stanford, MIT
and Harvard, great news, Stanford, MIT and Harvard have incredibly
(16:57):
diverse student bases right both at the undergrad and grad
student level. You can go find these people. And so
it's not that it's you know, I'm sure you remember
around me too. And even before that, right, there is
this whole sort of conversation nationally about where do we
find women, Like, buddy, women are over fifty percent of
the population. Where can she find women? Right? And so
(17:18):
like that's really the frustration is if you care about this,
go do this. If you don't care about this one
like I'll pray for you, but two then like just
just you know, get out of the way and let
people who do care do the work. And so, you know,
I'm cautiously optimistic that some of the conversations that we've
seen in the last week and a half will turn
(17:38):
into you know, real changes in capital allocation, will turn
into real changes at who's on boards and who's hired
and also candidly who's fired. Because as we learned with
me too, it wasn't enough to say we're going to
bring more women in. You also have to have really
honest conversations with yourself and say, if I work at
a fund that has you know, one hundred people across
the investment and platforms, and I've never fired anybody for
(18:01):
being sexist and racist, right, but my team is incredibly undiverse,
Like you have to ask yourself, are you sure that
you understand what's really going on at your firm? Right?
If you work at a huge tech company and you've
never fired anybody for being sexist and racist, then we
definitely know right that you probably are not being you know,
vigilant enough about it. Because you have to create an
(18:24):
environment where not only do you get people to come
work with you or to come, you know, let you
invest in their companies, but where you also are supporting
them so that if there are people on your teams
who aren't making it welcome, who are doing, you know,
things that are incredibly painful to those people, that you're
weeding them out. It's sort of like when you paint
(18:45):
your house, right, you would never go to an old,
dirty house and just put a new code of paint
on it. You have to clean it off and you
have to like scrape it off and get the old
gross stuff off and then you can start fresh.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
How do we like scrape off the paint in Silicon Valley?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I mean, that is a great question. The thing to remember, right,
is that Silicon Valley is not very old, like venture is.
An asset class is younger than our parents by far.
And so when you think about the fact that the
asset class itself is barely fifty years old, and that
these companies, right name a huge tech company and it
is younger than we are, right, most tech companies are
(19:22):
not old enough to drive yet, right, And so when
you think of it from that perspective, if new tech
companies can become unicorns, you know, in five years and
go from not existing, right. You and I remember when
we met in New York. Uber didn't really exist in
New York, right, and now it's like, you know, ten
thousand pound gorilla in the room. So if that can
happen in the span of one decade, then why not
(19:44):
make a conscious effort to say, I'm going to fund
a more diverse range of incredible founders so that the
next Uber doesn't you know, have one the same problems
that the first uber has had, but two that it
doesn't you know, have a lack of diversity, because we
know diversity drives better business returns and drives better business decisions.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, I keep thinking, you know, I love technology. I
love Silicon Valley. You know this was this is my career, right,
this is when we met. You know, I've spent my
career covering it. I am also disappointed in many ways
to oftentimes have to ask the same questions over and
(20:29):
over again. Like you can hear sirens outside my place
right now, because people are protesting on the street and
they are frustrated, and there are questions about free speech
that there are questions about whether these tech companies are
doing the right things, but most importantly, there are questions
about you know, like racism and the deep rooted pain
(20:49):
this country is in and you want and so I've
always looked at it, and this is my way into
it to saying, Okay, well, what I know best is
is Silicon Valley and a lot of these powerful, yeah,
mostly truthfully white men at the top. Right, what are
the questions, as someone who's been in a room with
a lot of these people too, what are the questions
(21:10):
we need to ask those people right now?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah? I mean, you know, I have a call later
today with a CEO of a Silicon Valley Unicorn because I,
you know, use the product. I know the product well.
And I noticed that they hadn't said anything about what's
going on, and they had, you know, they were promoting
multiple webinars that they had coming up in the zoom age, right,
and they were all white men, and like, one, it's
(21:33):
twenty twenty, we don't do that anymore, and two, like
this week, we're really not doing that this week? Right,
So I reached out and I was like, what's happening?
And you know, it's going to be an interesting conversation,
but my general guidance is we don't do this anymore.
And when you don't do something anymore, then you just
stop and then you start to think about what we
do do right, So, like we don't travel anymore. Right now,
(21:54):
we don't travel. And it seemed impossible if you'd told
anybody on February first that you will not be on
a plane from March fifteenth until god knows when, people
would have said that's impossible, that's impossible, possible. The impossible
has become possible, right so we know how quickly things
can change, but you have to have the will to
do it right. And so I think that what these
companies and what these powerful people to your point, who
(22:17):
are disproportionately white and male, are going to have to
grapple with it's far past time they grapple with it.
But I think what they're going to have to grapple
with is, Okay, this isn't working. And our employees are
telling us it's not working. The press is highness, it's
not working. The protests are telling it's not working. This
isn't working. And candidly, you know, even if they're not
out there protesting, they're feeling the pain too, and that
(22:39):
like most of the country right now in major cities
can't leave their homes at night. We are under curfews
in a way that like, this isn't something that I
think very many people at all are comfortable with having
happened in our countries. So when you think about it
that way, this is impacting you as well. Right, we
can hear sirens on one of our ends in the
background right now, So I think, sorry, everybody, Yeah, but
(23:01):
that's the thing, right, like, is it is not working right,
It's not working for this podcast, it's not working for us.
And so I hope that as that becomes apparent to them,
they realize that the time is passed where they can say,
do we think we should act? And the answer is
we have to act right. Our customers are not letting
us not act. The things that I've heard from various
(23:23):
reporters and friends, you know, like you said, I'm the
confessional booth of Silicon Valley. I've heard so much unrested
going on inside of companies. It doesn't hit the news
where people are just mad. And the problem is when
you have an entire workforce, it's remote and they're just mad.
They don't really have to pretend to be working right.
They don't really have to put on their A game.
(23:43):
They just oh, sorry, I missed the email at noon
on Friday. What are you going to do? You can't
walk over to their desk. And so I think that
there is a business imperative, and I think that there
is a moral imperative, and I think that Silicon Valley
can't sit this out any longer.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
You know. It's interesting. I heard from a friend of
mine who works out one of the big tech companies,
and I won't say which one, but she is a
woman and a minority and had to in this reapply
for her job, you know. And some of the men
in her unit did not have to, but the women
of color did.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
She did.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And also this week of all weeks in New York,
you know, and she had to do an interview over
zoom and and with with people on the other end
just saying, hey, how are you.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
And it just seems like, you know, and it just
seems like sometimes there's this this disconnect between Silicon Valley
and the idea that we can do good and that
we are changing the world for the best and we
are going to have the good outcome. And then, you know,
maybe I sit here passionately talking about it because you
can hear it outside and you can see it, and
I have, you know, even the privilege of being inside
(24:53):
at the current moment talking to you. But you know,
there's still that that disconnect that I hope that but
you know that things really that really do change in
some capacity, that this is a sea change for that
kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, yeah, And that's the thing, right, it needs to be,
because I mean, you know, that woman's experience sounds horrific,
but the thing is that people around her are seeing
that as well. A friend works at a company, actually
a startup in New York, and it's a big startup,
very well funded. They're doing very well, and they talk
about you know, the values that they have on their
posters right on their wall, or you know, about equality
(25:30):
and freedom and all these things. And they hadn't spoken
up on this issue and they hadn't done anything about it.
And the founders, you know, are very successful, and so
you know, one of the engineers, a white man, right,
went to their slack channel and messaged the entire company
and said, like, are we not going to talk about this?
Are we going to pretend like this isn't happening, and
it's spurred action right within a day. Immediately the founder said, hey, actually,
(25:52):
you know we're working out. Of course, we're working on it, right,
You're just you caught us a couple of minutes beforehand.
We're working on it. They had to release a statement internally,
they did their extra statement. They're doing fund matching, they're
doing donations, they're elevating advices of color. So you know,
and that's just one one guy writing candidly. The fact
that it was a white guy who did it is probably,
you know, one of the more powerful things you can do. Right, So,
(26:14):
if you're listening to this and you have a ton
of privilege, and you know, you're like, how do I
spend it? Like yes, donate, Yes, you know, go out
and protest if that's if that's what works for you.
You know, talk on social media, be incredibly clear, have
conversations with your friends, right when somebody makes a joke
or says a thing like shut them down and make
it clear that this is not okay, this is not welcome.
But you can also do that in your workplace, right
(26:35):
And you mentioned Facebook, and if change comes to Facebook
from this, it's likely going to be because a bunch
of very highly paid white guys say, you know what, No,
this isn't going to work. We are done.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Well. You know what's really interesting about if you look
at the petition or some of these employees who are
talking about whether you agree with whether they're saying or
not about the company's stance on free speech. But there's
a lot of unrest at the company right now and
a lot of that. You know, if you look at
some of the you know, it's like the head designer
for portal, the white man. Yeah, you know, the guy
who resigned white man, you know, I mean, and by
the way, the company. You know, there are diversity issues
(27:10):
at every major teach company. So it is interesting to
see that some of the people speaking out around this
moment in Silicon Valley are exactly kind of how you described.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yeah yeah, And that that I think matters because it
shows you know, that this isn't a siloed thing. One
if you don't feel like there's enough of an imperative
to care about people's lives just because it's not you.
I mean, you as a Jewish woman, understand this, you know,
very deeply, right, it's not okay to say that group
of people you know, can be treated this way because
(27:41):
it's not me. That isn't okay. But even more than
that is it's not just impacting that group of people.
We're all under curfews, right. There are people at these
companies who are speaking out who candidly you know, they
don't they don't need to for their own survival. But
that isn't you know where they're coming from. They're coming
from a place of humanity of isn't okay. And I
think for these big tech companies, I think for these
(28:03):
big funds, as that happens, they're going to realize that
they have to reckon with it, and not even because
it's the right thing to do, but because it's very
hard to run a tech company if all your senior
and best people are quitting.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yeah, listen, I very much hope that like all of
this comes true. Yeah, you know, I just think it's
time the world as a whole and then where I
look at the through the lens like in tech, because
I think tech products influence the world. Like we're at
a moment where all of us are having to move
online in these different ways, there will be even more
(28:36):
issues with the haves and the have nots and people
having access to online education. And if we don't have
a diverse group of perspectives in these tech companies that
are going to be leading the charge into what a
post pandemic world looks like, we're going to have even
more issues that are going to disproportionately impact minorities. And
I think when I look at that, I think, well,
(28:58):
that's terrifying, and so we've got to start thinking about
that kind of thing as well.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, exactly. I mean, the thing is the world doesn't
work right, Like if you look at COVID, and there
were a lot of countries where there were crazy outbreaks
of COVID, and it was traced back to the fact
that you know, in certain places, and certainly this happens
in the US as well, right, And this is partially
why you saw crazy outbreaks of COVID around like ski
resorts and stuff. Is if you work in an industry,
(29:24):
a service industry job where you are in very close
proximity to everybody else in your service industry job. Right.
So the examples were, you know, places where all of
the weight staff or all of the service staff you know,
is maybe bunked together, right in like kind of dorm style. Well, okay,
so you are you know, probably somebody who doesn't have
as much money, and you are maybe disproportionally somebody who
(29:47):
is a person of color. On top of that, guess
who weight staff serves, right, And so you'd see these
things where people are coming back from the Swiss Olts
dying of COVID because they're an incredibly privileged you know,
once star, I don't have all the details top of mind,
but like I remember reading one story about a group
of like three or four guy friends, right white men
in their fifties, who had gone to like the Alps
(30:08):
to go skiing and great fun. I love to go, right,
And then they got back and they all got sick
and one of them died. So the fact that, you know,
if you're not taking care of the most vulnerable populations,
it's not just them, right, and and one it's more
than enough if it is just them, Like people are
people and people deserve to live. But it's also going
(30:28):
to impact you. And so you know that I think
is a real wake up call for people to realize. Like,
you know, there's a famous quote that I think is
an African proverb that like Hillary Clinton of all people
I think repopularized in the nineties. Right, there's no such
thing as other people's children, There's no such thing as
other people's anything. Right. You know, a virus that started
halfway across the world has killed over one hundred thousand Americans, right,
(30:50):
And everything is global. And until you understand that, like
what's hurts somebody somewhere hurts everybody everywhere. You know, we're
going to keep having these these deeply equal outcomes, but
they're going to hurt you too. And so that I
think is hopefully something that you know, people are seeing
with COVID, that people are seeing with these protests, that
(31:10):
that people remember and don't forget. Right, if you don't
care about black lives, like, that's on you. But if
you care about your own life and you you want
to be able to leave your house at nine pm
at night in the next few months, then like you
might want to get on board.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
That's such a powerful statement. And I do think like, man,
if this doesn't make you care about all of this,
I don't know what well, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
I don't know what that is, Yes, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
I really like this is boss level, Like I just
don't know what well at the pdpoint, Okay, we've got
to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors
more with my guests. After the break, you created Cleo Capital,
(32:03):
Like at the time, it's been so cool to watch
you throughout the years be very vocal about women, minorities
and kind of breaking into the boys club in Silicon
Valley and fighting for certain causes and saying, hey, we've
got a problem, and even by the way, in your
own personal life, having at one point an investor doing
something inappropriate to you and you saying, you know what,
(32:23):
like I'm just not gonna sit her and take this,
and you spoke out publicly, and so you know, it's
been interesting to watch throughout the years and you really
not develop You've always had that voice. Yeah, when was
it that you launched Cleo It was twenty eighteen or
twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yep, so twenty eighteen and we've been going strong for
about a year and a half now.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So take me to the idea behind CLEO, because I
remember when you I feel like I gave you that
whole backstory to kind of give little pieces about like
this didn't just come out of like, oh, I think
I want to help women or you know, I just
feel like it was always in your DNA that you
were going to do something like launch an investment fund
to help different types of people, you know, not the
(33:09):
typical Silicon Valley dynamic get funding. So so take me
to the thought process behind it and why you launched
and what it is. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
So you know, Cleo Capital is a precede venture fund
and we don't have a mandate around race or gender
in terms of diversity investing. We just invested incredibly smart people.
And turns out that the women and minorities and members
of the LGBTQ community and people from all over the
country right not just Silicon Valley or New York, are
incredibly smart and they're building incredible companies. And so you know,
(33:39):
for us, that is easy because to your point, that's
in our DNA, that's what we believe, and that's in
those people flock to us, and that's what we do.
In terms of the fund. You know, I had been
at a large venture capital fund years ago and then
left and went and started a company and raised venture
capital for that and saw all the challenges that there
is in doing that period much less you know, as
(34:00):
a woman, as a black woman and it was really interesting,
eye opening experience. And you know, I then was tapped
by two sort of very different but very interesting opportunities.
One was I was on a board at Michigan State
University where I went to college, and I was on
a board to help them do their LP investing, so
to help them allocate into you know, venture funch, hedge funds,
(34:20):
all of that, and so I learned a lot about
that side of the equation, which is often kind of
a mystery even to very experienced fund managers. So I
got to sit in that seat. And then I also
on the other side, you know, as a scout for Sequoia,
and was seeing you know, how scouting works, which scout
investing basically is when a bigger fund says, hey, you know,
(34:43):
we know all these smart, brilliant people on our networks
who aren't personally liquid yet they can't actually angel invest
or they can't angel invest why don't we fund their
angel investing. You know, they'll find us amazing deals and
that we might end up wanting to put money into
as well, and then we'll split the proceeds. And so
that's scout investing. I was a scout at Sequoia. You know,
(35:03):
my company had run out of money. I was winding
it down, kind of thinking about what I wanted to
do next, and I was really bothered that, you know,
I was scout investing. So I'd call my female founder
friends and because they're you know, my closest friends, and
I would say, hey, you know, I'm angel investing. Now,
I'm scout investing. You know, can you send me deal flow?
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Right?
Speaker 2 (35:20):
What are you investing? And these are brilliant women, many
of whom you're friends with as well, who've been in
this industry for a long time. They're you know, super smart,
they've had success, some success, but they all said, oh,
we don't angel invest I'm like why, Like, they're not
personally liquid, right, because they're raising so much less money
at lower valuations, it's harder to take money off the table.
They're less likely, you know, to be getting hired into
(35:40):
these big tech companies to begin with and getting those
big paydays. They're less likely to be made advisors at companies,
so that then when they are excess that they're getting
some of that free cash flow that funds most of
the angel investing in Silicon Valley. So they weren't really
angel investing. I was like, okay, that makes sense, but
then why aren't you scout investing? And all of them
looked at me and said, what's a scout? And so
I started doing some digging, and I found out that
(36:01):
you know that there are about five ish firms at
any given time that have Scout programs in Silicon Valley,
and all of them have by far predominantly men, and
they're also relatively you know, pretty and diverse. Right, so
I was shocked to hear this. I shouldn't be shocked
that sometimes, you know, we still get shocked by the
things that are probably obvious at this point. And so
(36:23):
I was really bothered that I knew all these amazing,
brilliant women who are insanely well connected, and you know,
they weren't able to angel invest. And so my thought,
what I said, was, you know, why not give them
the opportunity to angel invest? Why not give them money?
And I was thinking about joining larger funds, and even
post me too, I wasn't wildly impressed by what I
(36:46):
was seeing at the bigger funds in terms of their
their commitments to diversity, how they were treating diverse audiences.
All of that, so you know, I decided to launch
my own fund, and you know, we invest in anyone.
I invest in anyone. My Scout's invest in anyone. But
my Scouts are an amazing group of women who are
female founders. They've raised between five and fifty million themselves.
(37:07):
They're backed by top funds, they co invest with top funds,
and it's working. The two best performing investments in our
fund right now, one is two female founders, one of
whom is a woman of color, and the other is
you know, two male founders, but they are you know,
they're both immigrants and one is a man of color,
and so it works, right. And we didn't do those
(37:29):
deals because of that. We did those deals because they're
great deals. And we have top tier investors who followed
us into both of those deals and they're you know,
they're doing incredibly well because these people, like, the talent
is out there and it doesn't need training, It is ready.
It just needs capital, and it's awesome to be a
part of doing that.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Yeah. And you I think, as when all of this
happened with coronavirus, you put out a program for folks
who were laid off. You know, can you tell us
a little bit about that. I feel like that could
be a good resource for folks.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, so that was something that we put together very quickly.
And you know, investors generally say, actually, the last business
trip I took before COVID really shut things down was
to New York. So I was in New York in
early March, the first week of March, and I was
on a panel and investor panel talking about how you know,
someone said, you know what about downturns, and I said,
(38:20):
I'm a preseed investor. Right, Historically, downturns are a great
time to start a company because talent is cheaper, the
opportunity cost of starting a company is cheaper. Even AD
rates right on Facebook and Instagram, as we've seen during coronavirus,
are cheaper because there's less capital, there's less competition. And
so you know, Uber, Airbnb, all of these companies. Right
(38:41):
if Airbnb, if those guys had had well paid jobs
in that moment, Airbnb would never exist because it never
would have occurred to them to run out their beds. Right,
So we know this to be true. But now this
downturn hit, and it hit incredibly suddenly and incredibly hard,
and within two weeks, thirty thousand plus tech workers had
been laid off, proportionally female, disproportionately people of color. And
(39:03):
what we were seeing is that all these investors were saying,
you know, time to build, go build stuff, This is
a great time to start a company, but they weren't
giving them any instruction on how to do it, or
any resources or any help. And so my thought was,
you know, I know I've started companies. I know how
to do that. I'm a preseed investor. I work with
founders at the earliest stages. I write checks before there's
(39:24):
anything beyond a person I believe in who has an idea.
So I said, well, why not just do that? And
so we launched a program called Chrysalis, because you know,
it's when when the caterpillar thinks it's life is over,
it turns into a butterfly. And so we launched this
program with a really simple mandate, which was, you know,
we put up an application page, and tech Crunch, you know,
wrote about it, and we reached out to some people,
(39:46):
amazing people we knew had been laid off, and we
started to get hundreds and hundreds of applications, right, and
so we launched the program it's a six week program,
and there are people who've been laid off, and they
are people who are brilliant. They come out of top
tech companies. You know, we have ex PhDs, we have
cxos of publicly traded companies and everything in between. An
incredibly diverse group of people and they're building, right. They
(40:07):
all came together and they started getting to know each other,
trading company ideas, and you know, from there they were
able to say, okay, great, you know, let's go out
and start working on stuff. And so we're in week
four and we have about fifteen companies that people are
working on now. And they're pretty viable, right, they're good ideas,
(40:28):
they're incredibly talented founders with great experience, and they're building
and they're working, and you know, we're really bullish that
that this is going to result in some real companies
from people who two months ago, if you told them, hey,
you're going to be launching a company before fourth of July,
they would have said, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Wow? And also so appropriate that it's like seven o'clock
here in New York and that like people are cheering
outside for the healthcare workers, so like as you're talking
about that, like people are cheering.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Good.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
I feel I've had it's been a range of we've
had this, sirens, We've had people cheering, well, you know,
to rap, I would love What about this is personal
to you? I mean all of it is personal.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Yes, I'd rather not die because people are racist, So
it's very personal, yes, and and like I laugh, but
it's also true and it's insane that that you have
to say that, right, So, so of course it's personal.
But to me, you know, the thing that I think
about all the time is like, you know, I'm in
my thirties, Like I want to have kids someday, and
like I can't, Like I hope that the world has
(41:31):
changed by the time my kids are old enough to
have questions about this, But I certainly can't, you know,
with any moral authority, right bring kids into the world
and then have to tell them when they ask why
is the world like this? I can't say I don't know,
and I didn't do anything to change it, right, And
I see, you know, so many of my friends, because
of my age, right, are are having babies and they're
(41:51):
they're really thinking about that. They're saying, like I'm going
to raise this human in this world, and it can't
keep looking like this, right, It can't keep looking like
this for women, for people of color, for LGBTQ people
like we can't you know, for immigrants, it can't keep
looking like this. And I think that's really an amazing
kind of north star that if we focus on that,
and if we say, am I comfortable right with the
(42:15):
fact that in twenty five thirty years I might be
having a daughter, right who's a black woman who's graduated
college and has headed off to work in Silicon Valley?
And if she calls me and says, hey, Mom, you
know I'm getting sexually harassed. Hey, people are being you know, racist,
I can't say, oh, yeah, sorry, that's just how it is,
because it doesn't need to be how it is.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
First Contact is a production of Dot Dot Dot Media,
executive produced by Laurie Siegel and Derek Dodge. This episode
was produced and edited by Sabine Jansen and Jack Reagan.
The original theme music is by Xander Singh. First Contact
with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot Dot Dot
Media and iHeartRadio.
First contact with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot
Dot Dot Media and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
We don't travel anymore. And it seemed impossible if you'd
told anybody on February first that you will not be
on a plane from March fifteenth until god knows when,
people would have said that's impossible, that's impossible, possible. The
impossible has become possible, right, So we know how quickly
things can change, but you have to have the will
to do it. So I think that what these companies
(00:29):
and what these powerful people to your point, who are
disproportionately white and male, are going to have to grapple
with is this isn't working. And our employees are telling
us it's not working. The press ishilliness, it's not working,
the protests are telling it's not working. Right, this isn't working.
They realize that the time is passed where they can say,
do we think we should act? And the answer is
(00:51):
we have to act. There is a business imperative, and
I think that there is a moral imperative. And I
think that Silicon Valley can't sit this out any longer.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I love technology, I love Silicon Valley. I've spent my
career covering it. I'm also frustrated sometimes it feels like
we're asking the same questions over and over and over again.
I've known Sarah Kunst as a person who will say
things that other people won't say, who will call out
inappropriate behavior. She's quick to speak, not just tweet. She's
(01:33):
been leading a discussion on the unforst situations for minorities
in tech for a long time. She's been a big
supporter of funding women, and I know her as someone
who's made it her life's work to change those things
for the better. My question right now that I want
to ask everyone in tech, while there is momentum, how
do we make sure we finally start making the necessary
(01:55):
changes in the tech industry that it's not just about
changing our profile photos, but it's about changing the makeup
of the boards, making companies more diverse, changing legislation, and
putting our money where our mouth is. I know these
are times of listening and learning. We all have to
do a better job of informing ourselves and listening to
others and changing our behaviors. So let's listen to Sarah Kunst.
(02:19):
I'm Laur Siegel, and this is first contact. First of all,
it is so nice to see. I know, it's so
nice to see your fake goodness. So I wanted to
start by just talking about our first contact. Right, So
first of all, for folks listening, like, we've known each
other for a really long time, especially in tech years,
(02:42):
Like do you remember our first contact.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
We've known each other I think for two recessions now,
which is quite a long time.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Oh when you say it like that, it sounds so
so long, it sounds so long.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, I mean I remember, you know, back when we
were both living in New York and we were sort
of young, young people just starting out in the tech industry.
And you know, it's one of those things where the
tech industry there at the time was so small that
you know, if you went to three parties in two bars,
you knew everybody, and so it was a fun time
because it really did feel like a community.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yeah, and I remember meeting you it actually that it's
such an interesting thing. You brought up the recession. We've
talked about this in prior episodes, Like there was a
lot of innovation happening and coming out of the recession, right,
there were a lot of really interesting companies that were
coming out of it. And there was this movement in
New York because people always think San Francisco tech, but
(03:37):
there was this movement in New York tech and you
had a lot of founders just going and coding different
apps and being creative and doing all sorts of stuff.
And there was a very small group of people. And
I remember meeting you then and it was that was
our first content. I think it was at a party
in Soho, not to be specific. So that was cool.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
The only place to meet anybody in twenty ten was
a party in Soho.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Right right, and by the way, like those seem like
happy times. And I've been wanting to have you on
for a while because you've done so much work I
think as an entrepreneur and as an investor too, and
talking about a lot of issues and something I've always
liked about you, Sarah, and to give I always like
to kind of paint a picture of the people I
(04:20):
interview for our listeners, Like you're the person that says
the unpopular thing or not the unpopular thing. You're just
like the person who says things out loud. You will
say things when other people won't. You will call people out.
You know, we talk about us, you know, being in
tech back in the day, like you have said things
to investors who have behaved inappropriately. You have been talking
(04:44):
about how things are unfair for minorities and tech for
a very long time, and so it seems appropriate for
me to have you on now, but I should have
had you on before. So I'm really happy to be
speaking to you right now because what an extraordinary moment
we're in. Yeah, thank you with everything going on. First
of all, how are you feeling about everything? How are
you doing?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
You're in San Francisco, I mean San Francisco, Yeah, I
mean it. You know, it has been an absolutely insane
couple of weeks on top of an insane you know,
a couple of months, and when it comes to, you know,
issues around racism in America, and on top of it,
on top of an insane you know, four hundred years right, So,
on one hand, what's happening right now feels unbelievable. And
(05:25):
on the other hand, do you remember that America is
a country that started out with you know, started out
with genocide and then moved to slavery. And you're like, actually,
I guess these protests kind of makes sense, right. It's
probably more a question of certainly, you know, we saw
some of this stuff in the nineteen sixties, but it's
probably more of a question of why did it take
so long instead of why is it happening now?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, And I mean I've always looked at things through
the lens of tech, and like I had this moment
where I was looking at all these venture capitalists we
know and a lot of people we know who are
you know, talking about black Lives matter? And I'm so
happy to see people out there and post and voicing
their support. But my question to you would be, you know,
there's so many issues and tech right, and there are
(06:07):
so many larger issues around this. The numbers and tech
are pretty terrible for minorities. I think I was looking
and doing research for this. Someone from Upfront Ventures posted
blacks are underrepresented in the executive ranks of startups by
eighty two percent. More than seventy five percent of all
rounds raised go to all white founding teams. So, you know,
(06:29):
my first reaction as I was watching this whole movement
happening in tech and watching a lot of the people
I know changing some of their profiles and posting a
lot of stuff, was this is great change your profile,
but also change your boards, change all these other things.
And so how are you feeling about I mean, what
do you think about stuff happening in your own backyard?
(06:50):
Do you think things will change because of this?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You know, I've been drawing a lot of comparisons to
the Me Too movement and what happened in tech then,
and you know, having been very involved in that, It's
one of those things where, you know, the Reverend Jesse
Jackson likes to say that in moments like this, they're
kind of tree shakers and jelly makers, right. So there
are people who shake the tree, the people out protesting,
(07:13):
the people who are saying this is absolutely like, this
is We're done. Right, It's been four hundred years, we
are not doing this anymore. This is done, and this
being you know, racism and the systemic discrimination against people
of color, particularly obviously black people. Right. So those are
the people who are out there shaking the trees. And
then the jelly makers are the people who aren't necessarily
(07:33):
always on the front lines protesting, but who are sitting
there saying, you know, what can we do to change legislation,
What can we do to change hiring practices? What can
we do to make our boards murdivers, to make the
companies we invest in more diverse, to make the investor
based mortiverse.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
And we know from research that whatever your investor demographics
look like, your investments tend to look like.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So if funds hire women, then they invest in more women.
And I think almost no funds, no large scale funds,
have a mandate when they hire a woman, saying, of
course you're supposed to invest in women. It's just that
we tend to gravitate towards what we know. So, you know,
we know that that works. And we know that there
are certain groups in tech that are incredibly underrepresented, right.
Black people incredibly underrepresented, you know, Hispanic people incredibly underrepresented, right.
(08:19):
Native Americans are underrepresented to the point where they barely
exist in tech, right. And so we know that these
groups are underrepresented, and we also know from data that
if we have more of them around the investing table, right,
that will invest in more of them because there's not
really a lot. There's certainly not a lack of talent,
and maybe five ten years ago there is a lack
of founders in these demographics because they were very reasonably
(08:43):
looking at you know, the inability to get funded and
saying maybe I don't want to start a company, right,
maybe I should be a lawyer, doctor, whatever. Now we're
seeing something different, and we're seeing that there are a
lot of founders of these demographics who are brilliant, amazing.
They're coming from top schools, they're coming out of top companies.
You know, they are ready to go. They just deeply
struggle to get money raised.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, I mean, I guess I think about it, and
I think about the circles that we've been in in
Silicon Valley, and I think about the rooms that we've
had the privilege of being in and.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Sometimes misfortune of being in.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
But yes, right right, I mean, actually we should also
we can have that whole conversation. I mean, you're you
are one of the women that called out an investor
for bad behavior and harassment and this started like a whole,
a whole thing where a lot of other women spoke
out against it. So yes, that that as well. But yeah,
(09:38):
we we have access to the room. But you're a
woman of color. I mean, there are not a lot
of people, you know that look like you in the
room all the time, you know, And so I wonder,
like it is a boys club. And so while there's
this momentum right now and this feels different hopefully, I mean, god,
(09:58):
I want there to be changed, like, you know, specifically
in Silicon Valley. You know, I get frustrated, right, like
how many times have we heard the company line? And
even as you know, as someone of privilege and as
someone in the media, and I have a responsibility too,
like what can we actually do to just not hear
(10:19):
the company line over and over again so we can
get more more people actually getting funded, more companies from
diverse perspectives. You know, what do you think specifically, are
like some action items that we could do?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, you know the great thing is right that that's
easy and it's easy, but it doesn't mean that it
is simple, right, and so it's easy and that I
love to use the example of crypto, right, I was
really early in bitcoin, and you know, I love to
use as an example. Where before bitcoin was invented right
by whoever Satoshi is, it didn't exist. And then now
(10:54):
a decade later, almost every big fund has a crypto
expert on staff, has invested in crypto companies, has made
a bunch of money, right, And so black people have
certainly existed right far longer than bitcoin. And so the
idea that you can't go out and find a source
of viewpoints, right worldview and voices that you haven't already
had in your fund or in your company, and that
(11:16):
you can't bring them in and that you can't empower
them to do great work and give them real capital
is demonstrably false, because we've seen people do that in
crypto right. People woke up in maybe twenty thirteen and said, Hey,
crypto's a real thing. We're going to go out, We're
going to you know, do some listening. We're going to
learn about it, we're going to talk to experts, we're
going to get to know people in this space. We're
going to make some small bets, and then we're going
(11:37):
to make some large bets, and we're going to bring
people in to do this full time. And they did
it right. Within a year or two and twenty twelve,
almost no major fund at a crypto investor, and now,
you know, sit by twenty eighteen, almost every fund did.
So if you can make that kind of change in
that short amount of time, take that playbook right that
you just ran. This wasn't twenty years ago. This was
five years ago, three years ago, and go and do
(11:59):
it around diversity. And we saw some of this post
me too, where companies said, oh, should we hire women?
The answer is well, yes, right, because there's really only
two answers to this. You either fundamentally truly believe that
only white men are capable of greatness, in which case
you're probably not listening to this podcast and please stop
listening to this podcast, or you are acknowledging that if
(12:23):
you're only working with white men, but there's greatness everywhere,
and there's talent everywhere, that you're leaving money on the table. Right, Like,
I'm a venture capitalist. I'm not a full time activist, right.
I am a venture capitalist. It is my job to
take capital and make more money with it. And so
if I am leaving money on the table, I'm not
doing my job.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Okay, we've got to take a quick break to hear
from our sponsors more with my guest after the break.
I look at even the controversy of Facebook right now.
(13:07):
I look at this idea that there's this controversial decision
over free speech and decision that Zuckerberg made, and a
lot of people are talking about it and saying a
lot of employees are beginning to speak out against it.
But what's interesting, and I think it was reported that
that decision was made and there was only one person
of color in the room, So there's a lack of
(13:28):
diversity of perspective. And you know, I guess, like this
isn't a news story. And the time that we've had
our quote first contact, Like how many times have we
had this conversation? But I guess that maybe is the point, right,
how many times do we have to have this conversation
because now there's real world impact and we're seeing it
(13:48):
trickle out in these ways that are in many cases
unhealthy for society. And so you know, what are you
hearing you talk to people? I feel like you're kind
of everyone's confessional and like everyone tells you kind of
like their war stories. I have all the tea, I
have all Yeah, you have like all the tea, Like, like,
(14:09):
what are you hearing like from people within these companies?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
That's the thing, right, Like my like probably starting like
like Friday Saturday last week when you know this happened,
George Floyd was murdered, you know, like, oh my god,
like less than two weeks ago, and it feels like
a thousand years ago, right, and since then that has
just you know, the the amount of phone calls, texts inbounds,
(14:33):
you know, emails and ask for what do we do?
What do we say?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Right?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I spent the weekend helping portfolio companies and my investors,
you know, craft their statements and you know, what do
we say? Who do we donate to? What do we do?
And the great news is there are things that people
can do right now, in this moment that make massive differences.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
If you donate to the Bail project, you are literally
bailing out a protester who is out there saying, you
know what, black lives matter, but they can't afford the
bail right, and so you're like helping in the moment.
And that is so important right when you say you know, hey,
black lives matter right on your Twitter account, your Instagram
or and your emails to your companies and in externally. Yes,
(15:12):
at some point it feels like every company is just
saying it to check the box. But let me be
very clear that that's an important box to check, right,
because you need to say, when we live in a
world where it is not inherently obvious to every human,
that black lives matter, right, that my life matters as
much as your life and as much as anyone else's life. Right,
then we need to say that. But that's the bare minimum.
(15:32):
That's where you start. And I'm glad that people are
donating and glad that people are like really honestly truly
saving lives and helping to fund policy changes in real time.
But that's a beginning point. That's not an end point, right,
because the policy changes need to happen. But on the
other hand, you know, there's a lot we can do
without policy. I work and venture capital, it's private equity, right,
we don't really interact with the government much. So what
(15:54):
the government's doing doesn't have a ton of impact on
our industry. It's what we choose to do with the money.
And so you know, I've getting a lot of inbounds
from people are saying what do we do? And I say,
you know, think about your hiring, right, think about your
companies hiring. Think about the board seats right that you
have and that you control. You know, what are you
doing to explicitly go out and look for this and
(16:15):
bring it in and support it? Right? And there's tons
of great organizations already, you know, on the education side,
like Code twenty forty and Black Girls Code, and you
know there are organizations like Black Women Talk Tech and
you know Black v See. There's not a lack of
these things, right, These people are not hard to find.
My LinkedIn inbox, you know, has been overflowing all week
(16:37):
as I've been having these conversations with various media outlets.
People can find you, right, People can find you, and
there's also endless resources online about how to do this.
But at the end of the day, if you're a
venture fund or you know, an elite tech company and
you are like, we only really recruit from Stanford, MIT
and Harvard, great news, Stanford, MIT and Harvard have incredibly
(16:57):
diverse student bases right both at the undergrad and grad
student level. You can go find these people. And so
it's not that it's you know, I'm sure you remember
around me too. And even before that, right, there is
this whole sort of conversation nationally about where do we
find women, Like, buddy, women are over fifty percent of
the population. Where can she find women? Right? And so
(17:18):
like that's really the frustration is if you care about this,
go do this. If you don't care about this one
like I'll pray for you, but two then like just
just you know, get out of the way and let
people who do care do the work. And so, you know,
I'm cautiously optimistic that some of the conversations that we've
seen in the last week and a half will turn
(17:38):
into you know, real changes in capital allocation, will turn
into real changes at who's on boards and who's hired
and also candidly who's fired. Because as we learned with
me too, it wasn't enough to say we're going to
bring more women in. You also have to have really
honest conversations with yourself and say, if I work at
a fund that has you know, one hundred people across
the investment and platforms, and I've never fired anybody for
(18:01):
being sexist and racist, right, but my team is incredibly undiverse,
Like you have to ask yourself, are you sure that
you understand what's really going on at your firm? Right?
If you work at a huge tech company and you've
never fired anybody for being sexist and racist, then we
definitely know right that you probably are not being you know,
vigilant enough about it. Because you have to create an
(18:24):
environment where not only do you get people to come
work with you or to come, you know, let you
invest in their companies, but where you also are supporting
them so that if there are people on your teams
who aren't making it welcome, who are doing, you know,
things that are incredibly painful to those people, that you're
weeding them out. It's sort of like when you paint
(18:45):
your house, right, you would never go to an old,
dirty house and just put a new code of paint
on it. You have to clean it off and you
have to like scrape it off and get the old
gross stuff off and then you can start fresh.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
How do we like scrape off the paint in Silicon Valley?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I mean, that is a great question. The thing to remember, right,
is that Silicon Valley is not very old, like venture is.
An asset class is younger than our parents by far.
And so when you think about the fact that the
asset class itself is barely fifty years old, and that
these companies, right name a huge tech company and it
is younger than we are, right, most tech companies are
(19:22):
not old enough to drive yet, right, And so when
you think of it from that perspective, if new tech
companies can become unicorns, you know, in five years and
go from not existing, right. You and I remember when
we met in New York. Uber didn't really exist in
New York, right, and now it's like, you know, ten
thousand pound gorilla in the room. So if that can
happen in the span of one decade, then why not
(19:44):
make a conscious effort to say, I'm going to fund
a more diverse range of incredible founders so that the
next Uber doesn't you know, have one the same problems
that the first uber has had, but two that it
doesn't you know, have a lack of diversity, because we
know diversity drives better business returns and drives better business decisions.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, I keep thinking, you know, I love technology. I
love Silicon Valley. You know this was this is my career, right,
this is when we met. You know, I've spent my
career covering it. I am also disappointed in many ways
to oftentimes have to ask the same questions over and
(20:29):
over again. Like you can hear sirens outside my place
right now, because people are protesting on the street and
they are frustrated, and there are questions about free speech
that there are questions about whether these tech companies are
doing the right things, but most importantly, there are questions
about you know, like racism and the deep rooted pain
(20:49):
this country is in and you want and so I've
always looked at it, and this is my way into
it to saying, Okay, well, what I know best is
is Silicon Valley and a lot of these powerful, yeah,
mostly truthfully white men at the top. Right, what are
the questions, as someone who's been in a room with
a lot of these people too, what are the questions
(21:10):
we need to ask those people right now?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah? I mean, you know, I have a call later
today with a CEO of a Silicon Valley Unicorn because I,
you know, use the product. I know the product well.
And I noticed that they hadn't said anything about what's
going on, and they had, you know, they were promoting
multiple webinars that they had coming up in the zoom age, right,
and they were all white men, and like, one, it's
(21:33):
twenty twenty, we don't do that anymore, and two, like
this week, we're really not doing that this week? Right,
So I reached out and I was like, what's happening?
And you know, it's going to be an interesting conversation,
but my general guidance is we don't do this anymore.
And when you don't do something anymore, then you just
stop and then you start to think about what we
do do right, So, like we don't travel anymore. Right now,
(21:54):
we don't travel. And it seemed impossible if you'd told
anybody on February first that you will not be on
a plane from March fifteenth until god knows when, people
would have said that's impossible, that's impossible, possible. The impossible
has become possible, right so we know how quickly things
can change, but you have to have the will to
do it right. And so I think that what these
companies and what these powerful people to your point, who
(22:17):
are disproportionately white and male, are going to have to
grapple with it's far past time they grapple with it.
But I think what they're going to have to grapple
with is, Okay, this isn't working. And our employees are
telling us it's not working. The press is highness, it's
not working. The protests are telling it's not working. This
isn't working. And candidly, you know, even if they're not
out there protesting, they're feeling the pain too, and that
(22:39):
like most of the country right now in major cities
can't leave their homes at night. We are under curfews
in a way that like, this isn't something that I
think very many people at all are comfortable with having
happened in our countries. So when you think about it
that way, this is impacting you as well. Right, we
can hear sirens on one of our ends in the
background right now, So I think, sorry, everybody, Yeah, but
(23:01):
that's the thing, right, like, is it is not working right,
It's not working for this podcast, it's not working for us.
And so I hope that as that becomes apparent to them,
they realize that the time is passed where they can say,
do we think we should act? And the answer is
we have to act right. Our customers are not letting
us not act. The things that I've heard from various
(23:23):
reporters and friends, you know, like you said, I'm the
confessional booth of Silicon Valley. I've heard so much unrested
going on inside of companies. It doesn't hit the news
where people are just mad. And the problem is when
you have an entire workforce, it's remote and they're just mad.
They don't really have to pretend to be working right.
They don't really have to put on their A game.
(23:43):
They just oh, sorry, I missed the email at noon
on Friday. What are you going to do? You can't
walk over to their desk. And so I think that
there is a business imperative, and I think that there
is a moral imperative, and I think that Silicon Valley
can't sit this out any longer.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
You know. It's interesting. I heard from a friend of
mine who works out one of the big tech companies,
and I won't say which one, but she is a
woman and a minority and had to in this reapply
for her job, you know. And some of the men
in her unit did not have to, but the women
of color did.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
She did.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And also this week of all weeks in New York,
you know, and she had to do an interview over
zoom and and with with people on the other end
just saying, hey, how are you.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
And it just seems like, you know, and it just
seems like sometimes there's this this disconnect between Silicon Valley
and the idea that we can do good and that
we are changing the world for the best and we
are going to have the good outcome. And then, you know,
maybe I sit here passionately talking about it because you
can hear it outside and you can see it, and
I have, you know, even the privilege of being inside
(24:53):
at the current moment talking to you. But you know,
there's still that that disconnect that I hope that but
you know that things really that really do change in
some capacity, that this is a sea change for that
kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, yeah, And that's the thing, right, it needs to be,
because I mean, you know, that woman's experience sounds horrific,
but the thing is that people around her are seeing
that as well. A friend works at a company, actually
a startup in New York, and it's a big startup,
very well funded. They're doing very well, and they talk
about you know, the values that they have on their
posters right on their wall, or you know, about equality
(25:30):
and freedom and all these things. And they hadn't spoken
up on this issue and they hadn't done anything about it.
And the founders, you know, are very successful, and so
you know, one of the engineers, a white man, right,
went to their slack channel and messaged the entire company
and said, like, are we not going to talk about this?
Are we going to pretend like this isn't happening, and
it's spurred action right within a day. Immediately the founder said, hey, actually,
(25:52):
you know we're working out. Of course, we're working on it, right,
You're just you caught us a couple of minutes beforehand.
We're working on it. They had to release a statement internally,
they did their extra statement. They're doing fund matching, they're
doing donations, they're elevating advices of color. So you know,
and that's just one one guy writing candidly. The fact
that it was a white guy who did it is probably,
you know, one of the more powerful things you can do. Right, So,
(26:14):
if you're listening to this and you have a ton
of privilege, and you know, you're like, how do I
spend it? Like yes, donate, Yes, you know, go out
and protest if that's if that's what works for you.
You know, talk on social media, be incredibly clear, have
conversations with your friends, right when somebody makes a joke
or says a thing like shut them down and make
it clear that this is not okay, this is not welcome.
But you can also do that in your workplace, right
(26:35):
And you mentioned Facebook, and if change comes to Facebook
from this, it's likely going to be because a bunch
of very highly paid white guys say, you know what, No,
this isn't going to work. We are done.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Well. You know what's really interesting about if you look
at the petition or some of these employees who are
talking about whether you agree with whether they're saying or
not about the company's stance on free speech. But there's
a lot of unrest at the company right now and
a lot of that. You know, if you look at
some of the you know, it's like the head designer
for portal, the white man. Yeah, you know, the guy
who resigned white man, you know, I mean, and by
the way, the company. You know, there are diversity issues
(27:10):
at every major teach company. So it is interesting to
see that some of the people speaking out around this
moment in Silicon Valley are exactly kind of how you described.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yeah yeah, And that that I think matters because it
shows you know, that this isn't a siloed thing. One
if you don't feel like there's enough of an imperative
to care about people's lives just because it's not you.
I mean, you as a Jewish woman, understand this, you know,
very deeply, right, it's not okay to say that group
of people you know, can be treated this way because
(27:41):
it's not me. That isn't okay. But even more than
that is it's not just impacting that group of people.
We're all under curfews, right. There are people at these
companies who are speaking out who candidly you know, they
don't they don't need to for their own survival. But
that isn't you know where they're coming from. They're coming
from a place of humanity of isn't okay. And I
think for these big tech companies, I think for these
(28:03):
big funds, as that happens, they're going to realize that
they have to reckon with it, and not even because
it's the right thing to do, but because it's very
hard to run a tech company if all your senior
and best people are quitting.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yeah, listen, I very much hope that like all of
this comes true. Yeah, you know, I just think it's
time the world as a whole and then where I
look at the through the lens like in tech, because
I think tech products influence the world. Like we're at
a moment where all of us are having to move
online in these different ways, there will be even more
(28:36):
issues with the haves and the have nots and people
having access to online education. And if we don't have
a diverse group of perspectives in these tech companies that
are going to be leading the charge into what a
post pandemic world looks like, we're going to have even
more issues that are going to disproportionately impact minorities. And
I think when I look at that, I think, well,
(28:58):
that's terrifying, and so we've got to start thinking about
that kind of thing as well.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, exactly. I mean, the thing is the world doesn't
work right, Like if you look at COVID, and there
were a lot of countries where there were crazy outbreaks
of COVID, and it was traced back to the fact
that you know, in certain places, and certainly this happens
in the US as well, right, And this is partially
why you saw crazy outbreaks of COVID around like ski
resorts and stuff. Is if you work in an industry,
(29:24):
a service industry job where you are in very close
proximity to everybody else in your service industry job. Right.
So the examples were, you know, places where all of
the weight staff or all of the service staff you know,
is maybe bunked together, right in like kind of dorm style. Well, okay,
so you are you know, probably somebody who doesn't have
as much money, and you are maybe disproportionally somebody who
(29:47):
is a person of color. On top of that, guess
who weight staff serves, right, And so you'd see these
things where people are coming back from the Swiss Olts
dying of COVID because they're an incredibly privileged you know,
once star, I don't have all the details top of mind,
but like I remember reading one story about a group
of like three or four guy friends, right white men
in their fifties, who had gone to like the Alps
(30:08):
to go skiing and great fun. I love to go, right,
And then they got back and they all got sick
and one of them died. So the fact that, you know,
if you're not taking care of the most vulnerable populations,
it's not just them, right, and and one it's more
than enough if it is just them, Like people are
people and people deserve to live. But it's also going
(30:28):
to impact you. And so you know that I think
is a real wake up call for people to realize. Like,
you know, there's a famous quote that I think is
an African proverb that like Hillary Clinton of all people
I think repopularized in the nineties. Right, there's no such
thing as other people's children, There's no such thing as
other people's anything. Right. You know, a virus that started
halfway across the world has killed over one hundred thousand Americans, right,
(30:50):
And everything is global. And until you understand that, like
what's hurts somebody somewhere hurts everybody everywhere. You know, we're
going to keep having these these deeply equal outcomes, but
they're going to hurt you too. And so that I
think is hopefully something that you know, people are seeing
with COVID, that people are seeing with these protests, that
(31:10):
that people remember and don't forget. Right, if you don't
care about black lives, like, that's on you. But if
you care about your own life and you you want
to be able to leave your house at nine pm
at night in the next few months, then like you
might want to get on board.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
That's such a powerful statement. And I do think like, man,
if this doesn't make you care about all of this,
I don't know what well, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
I don't know what that is, Yes, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
I really like this is boss level, Like I just
don't know what well at the pdpoint, Okay, we've got
to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors
more with my guests. After the break, you created Cleo Capital,
(32:03):
Like at the time, it's been so cool to watch
you throughout the years be very vocal about women, minorities
and kind of breaking into the boys club in Silicon
Valley and fighting for certain causes and saying, hey, we've
got a problem, and even by the way, in your
own personal life, having at one point an investor doing
something inappropriate to you and you saying, you know what,
(32:23):
like I'm just not gonna sit her and take this,
and you spoke out publicly, and so you know, it's
been interesting to watch throughout the years and you really
not develop You've always had that voice. Yeah, when was
it that you launched Cleo It was twenty eighteen or
twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yep, so twenty eighteen and we've been going strong for
about a year and a half now.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So take me to the idea behind CLEO, because I
remember when you I feel like I gave you that
whole backstory to kind of give little pieces about like
this didn't just come out of like, oh, I think
I want to help women or you know, I just
feel like it was always in your DNA that you
were going to do something like launch an investment fund
to help different types of people, you know, not the
(33:09):
typical Silicon Valley dynamic get funding. So so take me
to the thought process behind it and why you launched
and what it is. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
So you know, Cleo Capital is a precede venture fund
and we don't have a mandate around race or gender
in terms of diversity investing. We just invested incredibly smart people.
And turns out that the women and minorities and members
of the LGBTQ community and people from all over the
country right not just Silicon Valley or New York, are
incredibly smart and they're building incredible companies. And so you know,
(33:39):
for us, that is easy because to your point, that's
in our DNA, that's what we believe, and that's in
those people flock to us, and that's what we do.
In terms of the fund. You know, I had been
at a large venture capital fund years ago and then
left and went and started a company and raised venture
capital for that and saw all the challenges that there
is in doing that period much less you know, as
(34:00):
a woman, as a black woman and it was really interesting,
eye opening experience. And you know, I then was tapped
by two sort of very different but very interesting opportunities.
One was I was on a board at Michigan State
University where I went to college, and I was on
a board to help them do their LP investing, so
to help them allocate into you know, venture funch, hedge funds,
(34:20):
all of that, and so I learned a lot about
that side of the equation, which is often kind of
a mystery even to very experienced fund managers. So I
got to sit in that seat. And then I also
on the other side, you know, as a scout for Sequoia,
and was seeing you know, how scouting works, which scout
investing basically is when a bigger fund says, hey, you know,
(34:43):
we know all these smart, brilliant people on our networks
who aren't personally liquid yet they can't actually angel invest
or they can't angel invest why don't we fund their
angel investing. You know, they'll find us amazing deals and
that we might end up wanting to put money into
as well, and then we'll split the proceeds. And so
that's scout investing. I was a scout at Sequoia. You know,
(35:03):
my company had run out of money. I was winding
it down, kind of thinking about what I wanted to
do next, and I was really bothered that, you know,
I was scout investing. So I'd call my female founder
friends and because they're you know, my closest friends, and
I would say, hey, you know, I'm angel investing. Now,
I'm scout investing. You know, can you send me deal flow?
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Right?
Speaker 2 (35:20):
What are you investing? And these are brilliant women, many
of whom you're friends with as well, who've been in
this industry for a long time. They're you know, super smart,
they've had success, some success, but they all said, oh,
we don't angel invest I'm like why, Like, they're not
personally liquid, right, because they're raising so much less money
at lower valuations, it's harder to take money off the table.
They're less likely, you know, to be getting hired into
(35:40):
these big tech companies to begin with and getting those
big paydays. They're less likely to be made advisors at companies,
so that then when they are excess that they're getting
some of that free cash flow that funds most of
the angel investing in Silicon Valley. So they weren't really
angel investing. I was like, okay, that makes sense, but
then why aren't you scout investing? And all of them
looked at me and said, what's a scout? And so
I started doing some digging, and I found out that
(36:01):
you know that there are about five ish firms at
any given time that have Scout programs in Silicon Valley,
and all of them have by far predominantly men, and
they're also relatively you know, pretty and diverse. Right, so
I was shocked to hear this. I shouldn't be shocked
that sometimes, you know, we still get shocked by the
things that are probably obvious at this point. And so
(36:23):
I was really bothered that I knew all these amazing,
brilliant women who are insanely well connected, and you know,
they weren't able to angel invest. And so my thought,
what I said, was, you know, why not give them
the opportunity to angel invest? Why not give them money?
And I was thinking about joining larger funds, and even
post me too, I wasn't wildly impressed by what I
(36:46):
was seeing at the bigger funds in terms of their
their commitments to diversity, how they were treating diverse audiences.
All of that, so you know, I decided to launch
my own fund, and you know, we invest in anyone.
I invest in anyone. My Scout's invest in anyone. But
my Scouts are an amazing group of women who are
female founders. They've raised between five and fifty million themselves.
(37:07):
They're backed by top funds, they co invest with top funds,
and it's working. The two best performing investments in our
fund right now, one is two female founders, one of
whom is a woman of color, and the other is
you know, two male founders, but they are you know,
they're both immigrants and one is a man of color,
and so it works, right. And we didn't do those
(37:29):
deals because of that. We did those deals because they're
great deals. And we have top tier investors who followed
us into both of those deals and they're you know,
they're doing incredibly well because these people, like, the talent
is out there and it doesn't need training, It is ready.
It just needs capital, and it's awesome to be a
part of doing that.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Yeah. And you I think, as when all of this
happened with coronavirus, you put out a program for folks
who were laid off. You know, can you tell us
a little bit about that. I feel like that could
be a good resource for folks.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, so that was something that we put together very quickly.
And you know, investors generally say, actually, the last business
trip I took before COVID really shut things down was
to New York. So I was in New York in
early March, the first week of March, and I was
on a panel and investor panel talking about how you know,
someone said, you know what about downturns, and I said,
(38:20):
I'm a preseed investor. Right, Historically, downturns are a great
time to start a company because talent is cheaper, the
opportunity cost of starting a company is cheaper. Even AD
rates right on Facebook and Instagram, as we've seen during coronavirus,
are cheaper because there's less capital, there's less competition. And
so you know, Uber, Airbnb, all of these companies. Right
(38:41):
if Airbnb, if those guys had had well paid jobs
in that moment, Airbnb would never exist because it never
would have occurred to them to run out their beds. Right,
So we know this to be true. But now this
downturn hit, and it hit incredibly suddenly and incredibly hard,
and within two weeks, thirty thousand plus tech workers had
been laid off, proportionally female, disproportionately people of color. And
(39:03):
what we were seeing is that all these investors were saying,
you know, time to build, go build stuff, This is
a great time to start a company, but they weren't
giving them any instruction on how to do it, or
any resources or any help. And so my thought was,
you know, I know I've started companies. I know how
to do that. I'm a preseed investor. I work with
founders at the earliest stages. I write checks before there's
(39:24):
anything beyond a person I believe in who has an idea.
So I said, well, why not just do that? And
so we launched a program called Chrysalis, because you know,
it's when when the caterpillar thinks it's life is over,
it turns into a butterfly. And so we launched this
program with a really simple mandate, which was, you know,
we put up an application page, and tech Crunch, you know,
wrote about it, and we reached out to some people,
(39:46):
amazing people we knew had been laid off, and we
started to get hundreds and hundreds of applications, right, and
so we launched the program it's a six week program,
and there are people who've been laid off, and they
are people who are brilliant. They come out of top
tech companies. You know, we have ex PhDs, we have
cxos of publicly traded companies and everything in between. An
incredibly diverse group of people and they're building, right. They
(40:07):
all came together and they started getting to know each other,
trading company ideas, and you know, from there they were
able to say, okay, great, you know, let's go out
and start working on stuff. And so we're in week
four and we have about fifteen companies that people are
working on now. And they're pretty viable, right, they're good ideas,
(40:28):
they're incredibly talented founders with great experience, and they're building
and they're working, and you know, we're really bullish that
that this is going to result in some real companies
from people who two months ago, if you told them, hey,
you're going to be launching a company before fourth of July,
they would have said, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Wow? And also so appropriate that it's like seven o'clock
here in New York and that like people are cheering
outside for the healthcare workers, so like as you're talking
about that, like people are cheering.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Good.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
I feel I've had it's been a range of we've
had this, sirens, We've had people cheering, well, you know,
to rap, I would love What about this is personal
to you? I mean all of it is personal.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Yes, I'd rather not die because people are racist, So
it's very personal, yes, and and like I laugh, but
it's also true and it's insane that that you have
to say that, right, So, so of course it's personal.
But to me, you know, the thing that I think
about all the time is like, you know, I'm in
my thirties, Like I want to have kids someday, and
like I can't, Like I hope that the world has
(41:31):
changed by the time my kids are old enough to
have questions about this, But I certainly can't, you know,
with any moral authority, right bring kids into the world
and then have to tell them when they ask why
is the world like this? I can't say I don't know,
and I didn't do anything to change it, right, And
I see, you know, so many of my friends, because
of my age, right, are are having babies and they're
(41:51):
they're really thinking about that. They're saying, like I'm going
to raise this human in this world, and it can't
keep looking like this, right, It can't keep looking like
this for women, for people of color, for LGBTQ people
like we can't you know, for immigrants, it can't keep
looking like this. And I think that's really an amazing
kind of north star that if we focus on that,
and if we say, am I comfortable right with the
(42:15):
fact that in twenty five thirty years I might be
having a daughter, right who's a black woman who's graduated
college and has headed off to work in Silicon Valley?
And if she calls me and says, hey, Mom, you
know I'm getting sexually harassed. Hey, people are being you know, racist,
I can't say, oh, yeah, sorry, that's just how it is,
because it doesn't need to be how it is.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
First Contact is a production of Dot Dot Dot Media,
executive produced by Laurie Siegel and Derek Dodge. This episode
was produced and edited by Sabine Jansen and Jack Reagan.
The original theme music is by Xander Singh. First Contact
with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot Dot Dot
Media and iHeartRadio.
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