April 13, 2020 • 46 mins
All around the world, people are now living in isolation. Many of us are confronting this experience alone. Physical interaction is now a liability. What does this mean for one of humanity’s most important forms of connection — sex? And how can we continue to meet our fundamental need for intimacy during these times? Laurie looks at what all this on-screen interaction will mean for the future of sex. Could tech eventually replace human touch? Will people develop relationships with machines? From teledildonics to virtual girlfriends, sextech expert Bryony Cole talks sex in isolation and the future of love.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
First Contact with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot
Dot Dot Media and iHeartRadio. When it comes to the
future of intimacy, there's so much fear I think now
around physical touch. Will we see technology built specifically to
replace human touch?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yeah. Gatebox is kind of this virtual assistant, similar to
Siri or Google Home. It turns on the lights in
your home, controls the temperature, but also sends emotional text
messages saying I miss you and I can't wait for
you to get home. And this businessman returns home and
explains how you know, it's such a relief to come
home to someone, insinuating that this technology is actually someone.
(00:45):
So it does enter this really gray area where technology
is once sort of this thing to support us, and
now as.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Like, yeah, are we going to completely just replace it.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
It's April twenty twenty and much of the world's population
is now locked down in their homes to avoid spreading coronavirus.
We are living in isolation, many of us confronting this alone.
And that's because maybe one of the hardest parts of
this is physical interaction is actually a liability. So what
(01:28):
does this mean for one of humanity's most important forms
of expression sex. Physical intimacy is a form of communication.
It's a human need that goes beyond sexual desire. It's
about human connection. So how can we continue to meet
that desire and need for intimacy during these times? Could
(01:49):
there be tech that helps us combat loneliness and strengthens intimacy.
But we've also got to be careful. Remember we've already
developed these intimate relationships with our devices, and now we're
relying on them even more for human connection. Could we
go too far? And where will we draw the line?
My guest Briany Cole, has been talking about how sexuality
(02:12):
and technology are changing intimacy and relationships for a long time.
She's been asking questions like, could immersive technology enable you
to really feel your partner even if they're not close by?
What if virtual reality could teach you about consent? Could
a virtual assistant become a replacement for a boyfriend or
girlfriend sending you emotional messages throughout the day. I know
(02:36):
it sounds strange, but let's be honest, It's twenty twenty
and I've heard weirder. So ask yourself what platforms will
be built in this era around intimacy. Will these innovations
become mainstream change the fabric of our society or what
it means to be human. So let's talk about sex.
(02:57):
I'm Lorie Siegel and this is first Contact Briany Cole.
You are a leading voice when it comes to the
future of technology and sex, and you're the host of
the Future of Sex Podcasts, which is super fascinating and
I think everyone should listen to it. And you're also
(03:17):
the founder of the International Sex Tech Hakathon, which we
are most certainly going to talk about. But I want
to start with like a basic question, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
What's the right thing to say these days? You know,
I think, yeah, there's a bomb that could be let
off with anyone saying how are they doing in such circumstances.
For me, I'm waking up in Australia where things are
pretty great, so I don't really have that much to
complain about. If the mandate is to stay home and
watch Netflix. Everyone here is healthy and well on my side.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
You know, I was interested before in a lot of
your work and talking about tech and not just like
you know, we'll get into what like sex tech is,
but you know, talking about the future of technology and intimacy,
which I think is such an interesting topic, but I
think it's even more relevant now, Like we're all sitting
(04:12):
here in self isolation and our means of human connection
is through a computer, through a device, So technology is
enabling intimacy in all these different types of ways. So
I feel like your work is so interesting. It was
always interesting, and it's now it's super relevant, and that
maybe the rest of the world caught up to the
conversation that you were having about sex and technology for
(04:36):
a really long time. Sure, So to start, just what
is it about sex and technology that fascinates you?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, technology fascinates me in general, just in the way
it's impacted human behavior and how much it's changed my
own life and growing up and you know, growing up
pre internet to having Internet. So I've always been so
fascinated by the way technology sort of changes human behavior,
maybe with a little bit of lag, a little bit
(05:02):
of cultural lag, and how that all intersects together. And
that's sort of my background, being at tech companies and
working for governments and doing all sorts of different things,
always tech related, but with that sort of sociology angle.
And so for me, the biggest one that we weren't
talking about was sex. You know, sex is still so
taboo and such a stigmatized topic because it's often relegated
(05:26):
to this like dark, sleazy corner of the Internet or
the side of a highway or somewhere you know, in
our minds. But in fact, you know, we all got here,
presumably by someone having sex, and we all are sexual.
You know, the way we walk in the world, the
way we go about in the world is our sexuality.
So I really was fascinated by the way these two
(05:49):
you know, forces in our life intersect. And I think
you're so right, Lauran, that today we're facing even more
this sort of confronting part of technology being the gateway
to connection and intimacy and what does that mean? And
for me in terms of where that's led my work,
I think what's been really interesting is the questions I
(06:12):
used to get before about were exhaustive on the topic
of like robots and virtual girlfriends, right, and we can
talk a lot more about what sex tech is beyond that,
But I found that people were so hung up about
are we going to be replaced by you know, virtual
boyfriends and girlfriends? And what an interesting time to be
(06:33):
living through where many people are stuck at home and
their boyfriend or girlfriend is somewhere else on the planet
or even down the street right now that they can't see.
And also how much we're realizing we need connection, like
we actually do need human connection and it probably can't
be replaced by a robot and physical touch and all
(06:54):
these things that now we're kind of, you know, realizing
if we didn't have the recent search before, I think
now where we have the proof that intimacy is so
important and that probably can't be replaced. But the great
thing about technologies it can enhance and solve for these
needs sometimes.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And so kind of taking a step back, how do
you define sex tech? Like this is a term we
throw around, and I thought it was interesting what you
said about like when people think of like sex tech,
they think of like VR porn and robot sex and
what your work does, which is really interesting. Is it
just kind of is like, Okay, there's so much more,
you know. So how do you define sex tech?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, So the definition I use is sex tech is
any technology designed to enhance intimacy. And when I talk
about sex tech in that way, what I'm really talking
about is not just sex. The physical act, but sexuality,
so this big umbrella topic that encompasses everything that we
think about when we think about sexuality, education, health, crime
and violence, reporting, medicine, gender identity. These are things as
(07:59):
well as of course intimacy and relationships and actually having sex,
that encompass the sex side of sex. Tech. And then
on the technology side, you know, all the sexy stuff
like the robots and virtual reality, but also so the
fairly mundane technology that we already use that we don't
(08:19):
even think is technology that could be our hands. It
could be the you know, stone dildo that was found
in a cave thirty five thousand years ago in Germany,
which was the first discovery of a dildo. But yeah,
just thinking about this in a broader sense. So when
we think about technology and how that intersex with sexuality,
then we start to get some really interesting results, even
(08:40):
if it's just like apps or chatbots for sex education
or interesting new products for painful sex. I think we
often go, oh, sex is all about like pleasure and hedonism,
but sometimes there's things like what about a sci problem
globally or you know, issues with painful sex or premature ejaculate.
Those issues can also benefit from interesting technologies that may
(09:05):
be able to help sult them.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
So I've been covering tech for a minute, right, and
we both know it's like a predominantly male industry. It
must have been interesting being you and being in the
rooms like you worked at places like Microsoft, right, like
you worked in all these different places, you know, with
this point of view on sex and technology and kind
of the future.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, I mean, I'd always had an interest in technology.
I find it fascinating to be on the edge of
things and had always sort of been that kid that
was like looking at the new thing, or if people like, well,
what's the new app coming out, they'd always be like, oh,
Brian would know that. So that sort of is the
common I think theme in my work life was always
looking at future focused things really. But underneath all of that,
(09:50):
I think was this feeling that you know, growing up
having a fairly sort of average childhood, fantastic childhood, the
average shout in Australia, but we don't really talk about
sex in much detail. Right. You go to school and
you get somewhat of an anatomy lesson sex education, I
think we can agree is pretty crappy everywhere in the
world anyway, so I didn't have any language to describe
(10:13):
my sexuality. And at the same time, I had an
experience where again I think is fairly common for women,
is growing up. I remember being just so excited. I
was in grade six, so must have been twelve eleven
or twelve years old, and I was going to Target
with my mum to buy my first bra, and I
was so excited. I just had this sense that something
(10:36):
big was happening. You know, when you're a kid, so
you're not fully developed mentally, but I was physically developing,
and so I was just like, this is this big occasion.
And I came home and I was just elated. I
was like, Mom and Dad, you have to take photos
of me in this bra. This is amazing. And to
their credit, they were like, yeah, this is great, Like
(10:57):
let's celebrate. You're joining them, you know. And the same
thing happened when I got my period and they cracked
a bottle of champagne, like they've just been really positive
about that. And what I noticed was that was the
only positive message I got about being a woman. In fact,
when I went to school and then onto university and work,
(11:18):
a lot of the messages were more about being small
and you know, making my voice small, but also being
physically small. I always felt like I didn't really understand,
especially as a twelve year old, why something was a
bit wrong about what was happening to me. But I
always felt like I had to be smaller. So that
(11:38):
was sort of the thread I think that really led
me when I found sex tech and I thought, hey,
I know how to talk about technology and sexuality has
been such a silent influence in my life in the
way I've matured as a woman. I think this is
really important. And if I could go back in time
and tell that twelve year old girl, you know, being
(11:58):
a woman, that's going to be part of your strength,
and that's going to lead you on too all these
other things. I think I would have gone a lot
further in the work world and you know, in studies
and everything faster if I'd embraced my womanhood. So I
got involved in this through some research on the Nightlife
Project and found these guys talking about virtual reality, you know,
(12:20):
simulations with models in hot tubs and sort of the cliche.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
You were working with absolute right, and you had to
go around and you wanted to look at the future
of like nightclubs. So you went and actually interviewed a
bunch of different executives about it, and this is what
you heard.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, And so I found I guess what I thought,
what I thought I would find about sex tech is
I found, you know, these guys designing virtual reality scent releases.
And you know, when I asked them, what's the craziest
thing you're working on, they said, Oh, we're designing scent
releases so we can simulate being in a hot tub
with three supermodels on a Saturday night. And to me
that was kind of like, oh, man, no, no, that
(12:56):
can't be true. You know, that's every sci fi film
whereever se of like the dudes in their garage making
their virtual girlfriends. And it really prompted me to think about,
how do I turn this research into something else that's
much more focused in on sex and with this this
story underneath of like, I think this is really important,
like this is something I've been missing, which evolved into
(13:18):
the future of sex podcast. And what I had found
after the first few episodes is there is a whole
community of women working in sex tech which I had
no idea.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
About, which is super interesting, right because if you even
like look at like products and a lot of like
the sex stores, they seem seedy and dark and this
and that. And I remember interviewing a woman named Polly
from Unbound like years ago who was saying, like, there's
like a huge market for sex toys that women actually want,
and you know, and something that is created by women
(13:50):
that feels different, that has a different feel to it.
So I think it seems like an opportunity to some degree.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, I think it was, and you know, I think
there's an even bigger opportunity now, I think. And so
since I started the podcast, I've noticed this growing interest
and excitement with female entrepreneurs entering the space designing something
for themselves and designing something that aesthetically looks beautiful that
can live on your bedside table and not hidden away
(14:18):
and shameful, and also works for their bodies. What I
think is interesting now looking to the future is I
think there's going to be a more inclusive wave where
we're designing for all different bodies, including men. Right because
male sex toys that's still very taboo. But I think
there's going to be new opportunities opening up there after
(14:39):
this sort of wave of female led innovation.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Okay, we've got to take a quick break to hear
from our sponsors more as my guests.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
After the break, I want to go.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
To this moment because this moment is so specific that
you know, we're in this moment where in many cases
it's actually dangerous to touch each other. Like what role
will technology play and redefining intimacy in the COVID era.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, So if we think about intimacy, touch is sort
of the first thing that comes to mind. It's such
a big dimension of intimacy. But I think what technology
is doing today and enabling outside of touch is these
other dimensions to intimacy, emotional intimacy, intellectual intimacy, and like
(15:46):
shared experiences, whether that's spiritual or like share connections or
doing things online. So physicals are really tough one unless
you're you know, got haptic technology or you've got teledildonics,
which you know, I think that's becoming increasingly interesting. And
for those that have never heard of tellidialdonics before, teleidealdonics
(16:07):
are sex toys enabled by a Wi Fi or Bluetooth
connection so that you could say, have sex whatever your
definition of sex is, but use them with your partner
wherever they are in the world. So I think that's
kind of helping with the physical touch aspect of intimacy.
But really what technology is facilitating is conversations and connections,
(16:29):
so emotional connections and being able to understand that and
also understand yourself, you know, not only through zoom calls,
but through learning, right like Esther Perel's doing amazing webinars
at the moment. There's so many resources online that are
coming to the fore now, whether that's O dot School,
which is kind of like your Netflix for sex education,
for adult sex education, or omges or more sort of
(16:52):
adult like Kenneth play dot com who has his sex
Hacker series. So there's all these ways that's opening up
conversations around sex, around how you're feeling, and also these
intellectual conversations I think as well. I think people are
looking for guidance and they're also looking for play. If
they can't do that with the person that's in the
(17:13):
same room, how does that happen through the Internet. I
think people are going to be a lot better at
phone sex based time sex out of necessity.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
It'll be interesting you talk about like haptic technology too,
Like do you think we'll see platforms built on this moment.
Like people have been talking about haptic technology for a
while because we can't physically be with each other and
there's going to be a lot of fear for a while,
maybe until they find like a vaccine for this. So
especially for folks who are a single. Will we see
tech companies in trying out new technology more haptic technology
(17:45):
or that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, So haptic technology essentially is transmitting the sense of touch,
and I think there's some really interesting players that are
starting to do it that probably as you're saying this,
I'm thinking they're definitely speeding up their innovation and time
to market to get these things out, whether that's gloves
that you're putting on that will be able to transmit
(18:07):
the sense of touch to connected sex toys and sex
toys that have that haptic technology. So I do I
think that will happen. I haven't heard of anyone coming
out yet, but we're still very early saying we're going
this direction. What I do know is that people are
buying sex toys like they're buying food and alcohol right now,
(18:27):
so it's becoming a somewhat essential item.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Well, it was the New York Health Department. Their guidelines
said the safest sex is sex with yourself. So I
mean it's been written, and it's interesting that you've talked
a little bit about a kissinger.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Is that what it mean?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I think it's a good example of haptic technology for
folks who don't understand, right, Like I always like to
go a teeny bit black mirror, but not too much
black mirror, and like what could the world look like?
But can you explain what kissinger is? Is that how
you even say it? Is that?
Speaker 5 (18:59):
Right?
Speaker 1 (18:59):
All right?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
The kissinger had left my mind. I don't have one,
but maybe I should get one right now to like
give my mom a kiss on the cheeks. So the
kissinger was developed in Singapore, I believe, and it transmits
your kiss. It looks very much like almost like a
phone charger, like a smartphone charger, DOC that you would
like a little cot that you would put your phone in,
(19:22):
but instead it's sort of fitted with these senses around
the phone that you can kiss. Almost looks like it
doesn't look like lips. It looks like something you'd put
your lips on. And that transmits the kiss to the
other person who you know, who has the kissinger who's
holding it up to their mouth too. So I thought
that it was such an interesting product in that it
(19:42):
wasn't also talking about intimacy, which I think is true
now of intimacy between partners, but intimacy between family members
and also of course between you know you in a
celebrity or perhaps more like camsite, those sorts of things
where we're already seeing teledoplonyx being used. It's like, what
would it mean to be able to kiss brad Pit?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yeah, I mean it's like these technologies that we all
thought were kind of weird and a little bit strange,
something like this happens and there's a use case, right,
Like we're using haptic technology that feels a little far out,
But then you think about the fact that maybe you
have a boyfriend somewhere else around the world, or you
have your family back in another place and you can't
physically go be around them. I mean, it actually creates
(20:28):
an interesting use case for this type of stuff. I
think it'll be interesting to see.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, I do. And then the other one that's less sexual,
but it's kind of cute, is the heartbeat pillow, where
you know you have the heartbeat you have a little
bracelet on that tracks your heartbeat, and it transmits it
to something you can put under your pillow on the
other end, so you can hear you love it's heartbeat,
which kind of sounds soothing.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, I mean, especially in these times. Right, you've talked
a little bit about teenagers losing their FaceTime virginity, children
accessing porn as young as something like five years old,
loneliness on the rise. The journalist in me looks at
this era of coronavirus and says, like, all of these
things that you've talked about could only be magnified right
(21:11):
by increased usage of online activity being home loneliness, you know,
walk us through that, like and first of all, talk
to us a little bit about you talk about teens
losing their FaceTime virginity. What are you talking about? And
then also, is this a moment do we need to
be really careful right now that as we've gone all
in that you know, we don't go too far.
Speaker 6 (21:33):
Yeah, I mean to that last bit, I just feel
so strongly that people are really craving connection in a
human sense now that I feel like people are getting
the sense that, oh yeah, like we don't want to
just live on the internet after this especially, that's my sense.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
But for FaceTime virginity, when we're talking about that, that's
something totally I had no idea about till six months ago.
But kids talk about losing their FaceTime virginity the same
way we used to talk about our first kiss, and
that is really like, oh, who do you you lose
your face time virginity too, meaning who did you have?
You know, FaceTime like sex on FaceTime, masturbate on FaceTime
(22:12):
with And that seems to be a trend in anecdotally
who I talk to, which are young kids about sex
and you know how they're using technology. The other thing
I've noticed, because my partner is a teacher and is
doing all his classes remotely now, is that kids are
really sad. But kids really miss their friends. So I
(22:35):
wonder if they will also realize that physical touch is
actually really much more important than sex on FaceTime.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
I go back to there's like a group of people
in Japan. I don't know if you've heard of them,
that millions of them have like socially withdrawn its called hikamori,
and they live a full on digital existence. This was
all before coronavirus and they've been linked to depression and
psychiatric conditions and all sorts of stuff, and the cure
for them is physical connection and being around people and whatnot.
(23:04):
And so I worry that we're going all in digitally,
you know, do like, what do we need to keep
in mind?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
I think about that too. I mean, I think there's
going to be, you know, three types of people that
emerge from this, the people that are just ready to
get out as soon as you know, things are lifted
and life sort of seems to return to being able
to go outside and socialize. Then there'll be the people
that are a little bit hesitant that won't be going
to the football game still everything's good, and they're delayed
(23:34):
like that longer pause. And then as you say, will
there be people that think I'm not coming out of isolation,
I'm thriving in isolation. And we think whatever happened to Melissa?
Where'd she go? Which is also an interesting setting for
a sci fi book, But it's life right now, and
(23:55):
I think it's so it's so early to know. We
see a lot of stuff now, you know, on the
internet saying you know, make sure you know, turn off
the screens and move for thirty minutes and all these
sort of recipes for success in isolation. But the truth is,
I don't think anyone really knows.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yet, right what do you think intimacy will look like
in the virtual world. You've done a lot of work
on VR and what the future will look like. I
don't know if we'll all have headsets by the time
this is over, But what do you think it'll look like?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, in the VR world, you know, it still feels
in the sex space kind of clunky. I have so
many hopes and aspirations for VR because it's such an
intimate and interactive, immersive experience. When it's great, like when
you've done amazing things in VR, it's sort of like
(24:46):
your brain's changing. You're just like I can imagine all
the possibilities, And for me, they came out of thinking
about education because it is such a global issue, such
a problem. I think such an opportunity right now as well,
especially with rents at home being able to kind of
monitor their kids somewhat or understand how much they're using technology.
(25:07):
I think, Wow, wouldn't it be amazing if we had
VR sex education. I think that will come soon, as
it has for like other subjects like history and science
in VR. Why not have something like education and because
it's so personal to you know, going back to that
version of yourself that's twelve or thirteen years old and
all these things happening to your body being able to
ask someone in the privacy of VR, but also that
(25:30):
immersive experience or you know, talk to someone about STIs
and really have that you know, practice even you know,
we talked previously about these sex education apps in VR
that are being trialed, you know, games that allow you
to go through nightclubs and practice saying no.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
That's so interesting, like what does that even look like?
I mean, by the way, like may everyone learn more
about consent? But this idea of consent and VR is
such an interesting concept.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, I think you know, people are really trying to
crack the consent code, Like how do we teach something
that is always ongoing, you know, like it's always ongoing
and so it's so nuanced. And people have tried sex
tech before for consent in the blockchain. I don't know
if you saw that at all, but didn't work right
(26:22):
because it's not like you can sign a contract and
you've got consent. But the idea of practically learning about
consent by going through scenarios in VR to allow you
to practice saying no, well, asking for consent is actually
a really great idea, and so there's been a couple
of games developed. We had one developed at the last
HACKATHONI in Melbourne. There's a couple of years ago. There
(26:44):
was one developed in the States as well. That one
was really interesting. It was geared towards college aged women
going through a nightclub and practicing saying no. The idea
being once you get out into the real world, it's
a lot easier if you've practiced being an un comfortable
situation to go there again, just like your practice were
like a job interview. So I thought that was really
(27:06):
neat and it's inevitable right that these sort of educational
practical learnings should appear in VR as soon as we
all catch up, which maybe is.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Now, okay, we've got to take a quick break to
hear from our sponsors more with my guest after the break. God,
(27:39):
I remember doing an interview with a woman. We did
it in the virtual world, like in VR. We did
the interview about she said she was sexually harassed in
the virtual world. Someone kept touching her and it was
his real voice and she could hear him, but she
couldn't there was no button in the game for her
to push him away. And it was such a fascinating concept.
(28:01):
And she said she had been sexually harassed in the
real world and it gave her the same feeling, because
the idea of VR is it's supposed to make you
feel like it's real, and then we'll add haptics one
day and it will feel real, right, So like, it
was this really interesting ethical conversation around like what does
even consent to actually look like in the virtual world
and gaming too, and a lot of it is, you know,
(28:22):
these games weren't necessarily built by women who will be
experiencing some of this.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Yeah, it is often an afterthought. And I thought her
experience was so fascinating and kind of mirrors what we
would think about today with revenge porn and other ways
that technology is being used to harass people, and how
terrible it even feels. If you've ever received a creepy
email or a creepy DM or dick pics, all those
(28:49):
sorts of things are often an afterthought or just the
unintended consequence of developing this technology, and so Yeah, an
ethical committee for sex tech globally? Is that what we need?
Speaker 1 (29:03):
You heard it here first. I mean, especially as the
world goes I think more digital and even I think
this moment will be interesting because people will be experimenting
more with intimacy over zoom. I mean, my god, don't
take your clothes off on zoom.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Like.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
There's so many hacking issues, you know, I mean things
that people I don't even think this could lead to
a rise in revenge porn. I don't think people even
have really thought too far ahead. So it's just things
you begin to think about when we're looking at it
through this current lens of this pandemic.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Absolutely, I think there's a whole story there to be
told around safe sex virtually. You know, what does that
even look like that we haven't even touched yet?
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, what does that look like? You're my sex expert?
What is safe sex and the virtual pandemic era look like?
We know that they said the safest sex is with yourself,
But what is safe sex and the virtual pandemic hacking
world look like?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah? Maybe like turn off zoom, you know, or removing
all the metadata from your sex photos. You know, there's
so many different things that we're the majority of us
are not aware of how to sext safely or have
sex safely online. To your point about zoom or like
what platform is really safe? I think the safest thing
is not to be on video online, but that's not realistic,
(30:20):
especially in this time, so it's realizing. Yeah, well, if
you will do that, maybe you want to remove your
head completely from that experience so that you know you're
not doing it. Maybe you're comfortable, maybe you're using another tool,
But I don't have the knowledge to know which is
the safest one. But I actually think it's a great
idea for someone, for an entrepreneur that's out there, to
(30:41):
think about creating a comprehensive education program around how to
do this all safely. You know, we have such troubles
even like with online predators with children now as well. Sorry,
I don't have a more comprehensive answer for you.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
No, but I think it's interesting though, and even speaking
of entrepreneurs, like when it comes to the future of intimacy,
there's so much fear I think now around physical touch.
Will we see technology built specifically to replace human touch?
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Don't break my heart, it could happen. I know I
just really hope not. I mean, I saw this interesting
art installation, thank goodness. It wasn't like a real product yet.
But it's called the End of Life Machine. Have you
seen this? So it was developed in Asia, and it's
(31:36):
a soothing, calming robot for when your family can't be
there at the end of your life, which in these
days is so sad that that's a reality. And the
robot strokes you. So it strokes you on the arm
or wherever you want to be touched and speaks to
you in a coming voice and tells you it's going
(31:56):
to be okay, and that your family love you and
that you know you're going to be fine. I'll send
you the video. Anyone can look it up on YouTube,
the end of Life care Machine. And then once the
person has passed, all the life support equipment is turned
off and then the robot tells them like, yeah, well
they've gone now, and you know it's done. This person
(32:19):
is dead at this time. So those sorts of things
are replacing touch at a time when it, you know,
is that is such an intimate, critical moment, if not
the most right at your time of death, when you
want to be comforted. Perhaps it will become more than
an art project. Perhaps that is something that will need
to be developed.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah, God, I can't even I mean it just that
feels so raw right now with you know, one of
the most visceral things about this moment is people who
have loved ones who are dying and they're not able
to be there with them. The idea of dying alone
without physically being around people, it's just heartbreaking. I wonder
(33:02):
if this is a weird one, but I promise I'm
going to go somewhere with this. We you know, we're
all spending more and more time at home, and we
were already attached to our devices, and technology was already
getting more human. Do you worry that people will start
developing relationships with machines? Or maybe let me put it
(33:26):
this in, do you worry that people will start developing
feelings for machines?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
There's a lot of memes going around where people are
and they're relating to it, right you know, like day
thirteen of Quarantine and they're talking back to Siri or
you know, getting into a relationship with machines. Perhaps, you know,
our tendency is to anthropomorphize things that almost look like
it and behave like humans but aren't quite humans. I
(33:51):
don't worry about it right now, but you know, talk
to me in a month and maybe I will. But
right now what I'm seeing is people going, I need
so much more than than this. Like I'm realizing that
technology is not the answer to everything. And you know
there's zoom fatigue and hangovers using technology and people going, yeah,
well what else can I do?
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Well, it's interesting. We had a woman on who has
a company called Replica, which I don't know if you're
part of. It's like they do companion bots, so like
bots on your phone that are almost like your friend
or could be you know, Replica for a relationship if
you want. And you know, they have many, many users.
(34:33):
And I was speaking to her today and people can,
you know, say anything they want to these bots. They
can say, oh, I'm afraid I love you. There were
bots respond with lots of empathy. They're trained by psychologists
and so obviously this is a very high stress moment.
And she was telling me that something like people used
to send about fifty five messages or something per day
(34:53):
and now they're sitting up to eighty messages per day
since coronavirus stuff more and more people are paying for
pre me and bot features. I just you know, it
makes me wonder if, because you've talked a lot about loneliness,
if people will be looking to technology in a way,
you know, to try to fill a void. I know
(35:15):
you've talked about I think gate Box, which was an
interesting example of this too.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Yeah, it sounds like people are looking for relief more
than reliance after this, you know, one would hope, but
it's so interesting thinking We can chat about gate Box too,
but just thinking about the chat bots and the relief
that they're providing in this time is so interesting and
that have been developed. I'm not sure if we've talked
(35:41):
or you've talked before about mend, which was the chatbot
for heartbreak. So I think chatbots are doing interesting things
like support and relief in the sex tech world. Outside
gate Box, the other one is slap bot, which is
the robot that you can sext with, so you can
learn how to sext using slatbot, and she texts you
back or he texts you back, depending on what you
(36:03):
want so.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
And teaches you how to sex. Does that, that's what
it does.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Yeah, which is great because like who really you know,
not a lot of people know how to sext well,
I think, and like it's really fun, you know in
terms of like finding new ideas, but also like getting
consent and doing it in a really fun way. I
think now we're more and more relying on all this
technology to date and to go through those early stages
(36:27):
of relationships where usually we'd be able to like kiss
or something. So now people, from what I've heard, are
turning to sexting really fast. My friend's like, I'm getting
way too many dick pics for, you know, having just
met this guy. So slapbots this chatbot that you can
practice sexting with and she'll sex back, or you can
make it a guy and he'll sex back. So I
(36:49):
thought that was really cool. And then yeah, gate Box
is kind of this further version down the line which
leans into less sex and more like intimacy. We think
think about intimacy. Yes, there's the physical aspect, but this
emotional aspect is so interesting, and where you were talking
about with Replica and that idea that can can that
(37:10):
be replaced that emotional support and Gatebox is similar to
Siri or Google Home. It's sort of this virtual assistant
turns on the lights in your home controls the temperature,
but also sends emotional text messages saying I miss you
and I can't wait for you to get home. And
you know the ads if you google them for Gateboxer
kind of eerie. You know, this businessman returns home and
(37:33):
explains how you know, it's such a relief to come
home to someone, insinuating that this technology is actually someone
and it's marketed as a replacement girlfriend. So it does
enter this really gray area where technology is once sort
of this thing to support us, and now it's.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Like, yeah, are we going to completely just replace it?
Which goes totally against what I just originally said.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
In all fairness, I will say if like Alexa like, oh,
I don't want to say it too largeal here, if
I forget we're doing this from my home like everything,
you know, if she if she just made sure everything
was warm all the time and then sent me nice messages,
I'd probably be like, oh, I'm down, I get it,
You're amazing, I love you. Yeah. If she made sure
I like, I like the heat all the way up
(38:20):
at my apartment. So if she just kept my place
warm and said like really nice things to be over
tax messages. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Yeah, I see it, but for some reason, I've always
saw that. But it's not sure. We have cases where
people are marrying gate box, right, but it seems to
me that role being fulfilled is more like, yeah, an assistant, right,
like a virtual assistant rather than a virtual lover.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Right. I just wonder what gets lost there, right, and
like what we had to be so careful about, like
you know what gets lost when you lose human connection?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
And yeah, this is what we're all finding out now.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Yeah, I mean, and so take me to some of
the hackathons you do, because you have so much interesting
innovation that comes out of these. So tell us about
these events that you throw on them, some of the
stuff that's come out of them.
Speaker 6 (39:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I think the sex Tex hakathons are so interesting because
you're not just pulling together people from the tech world,
which typically is what hackathons do, right. You know, you
come together for a weekend and you hack on a project.
With the Sextec cackathons, they're largely geared towards people that
don't have that much familiarity with technology. So we'll see
(39:35):
you know, educators came mums, designers, just people from all
different parts of professions and backgrounds. Students usually between the
ages of like twenty years old and forty years old.
One hundred people together under the one roof, and we
give them challenges associated with sexuality to solve through technology.
The other interesting thing about the.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Hackthons like what kind of challenges?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
So, how do you xx education more accessible for teenage boys,
or how do you make condoms cool, or how do
you provide more sexual expression for people living with disabilities
or disabled persons, depending on how you like to phrase that.
So issue these challenges around sexuality and then invite people
(40:22):
to form teams and build whatever you know they think
is going to be the solution. So at the end
of that, you're seeing things that maybe teledaldonics, maybe interesting vibraidors.
You know, we had a sex voice activated vibrator for
people in wheelchairs, which was really cool. Out of the
Sydney hackathon, We've also done them in Singapore, New York,
(40:44):
and we just most recently did one in February in Melbourne,
and the winning team there developed a game for kids.
It was a team of mothers and also you know, entrepreneurs.
But I think the mother part was relevant because they're
all struggling with talking to their kids. It's about sex,
and they developed this game. And that's sort of the
great you know innovations that come out of this is
(41:06):
people come because they have an interest, they're curious, and
they probably have a need already for something in their
life that they're really passionate about that they want to change,
whether that's a conversation with their kids, a relationship issue,
sexual health problem. And it's great to see that sort
of grassroots innovation when so much of the industry has
(41:26):
been driven by, you know, access to capital and like
the tech industry, mostly male, it's interesting to gather a
lot of non males in a room and see.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
What comes of it. Right, So you've created a game,
talk a little bit about it and what's the idea
behind it.
Speaker 5 (41:45):
Yeah, So we created wheel of four Play really to
give people a space to play which wasn't so focused
on technology but was focused on themselves.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
And we started this with the intention of it just
being for couples, and now we're moving into it being
for singles and for people that they're dating as well.
But if you go to wheelerfourplay dot com you'll see it.
It's basically a modern version of a spin the wheel
type game that offers you different ideas and inspiration around
what you might like to do with your partner. If
(42:16):
you're at home with your partner, I think everyone's fearful
of like is my marriage going to last through this?
Or like, how can we still have sex in a
fun way? I really just wanted to find a fun
thing to do. I think, other than all the guidance
and the knowledge and the tools that are out there
dealing with this emotional side of intimacy and everything that
we're going, is there a lighthearted way for us to
(42:40):
be able to connect with one another? And that is
what Wheell of four play is.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I mean, what do you think the future of sex
tech looks like?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
I think it's for me. Whenever I ask this question
to people in the podcast, the resounding answer is something
similar to what I would say, and that it's a
future that looks more open, more accessible, shame free, less judgment,
probably non gendered if we can go there. But that's
all sort of encapsulates this cultural social message or conversation
(43:14):
rather than an actual technology. You know, I think when
I think about the future, it's not actually all to
do with technology in the latest innovation. It's actually like
how a our attitudes changing and how is technology changing
our attitudes? And that's what I hope for when I
talk about the future of sex is less focus on
like this cool technology is going to change the way
(43:35):
we have sex, but actually, like no, our attitudes are
going to be much more open to this, and sex
and sexuality is going to be normalized and from their
amazing things will happen.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Do you think that this pandemic will be net positive
for technology and intimacy or net negative.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
I'm forever an optimist, So for me, I really feel
strongly that people are going to find interesting ways to
adapt in their relationships and that will be a positive,
whether that results in end of some relationships that just
weren't healthy to you know, people finding love over the
(44:12):
internet or in unexpected relationships. For me, I think this
is actually a great moment for us to pause and
adapt the way we think about intimacy.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Okay, guys, that's it for this week's show. Now, I
know these are strange times. If you're sitting at home
and listening to this, I'd love to hear from you.
How are you doing, What do you want to hear
more of reach out to me. You can text me
at nine one seven five four zero three four one zero.
Throughout the crisis, we'll be hosting zoom town halls on
(44:55):
a variety of issues like mental health, love, sex, leadership,
productivity with guests that I think are interesting and relevant
to this moment. So follow along on our social media
to join us for some human ish contact. I'm at
Lori Siegel on Twitter and Instagram and the show is
at First Contact podcast on Instagram on Twitter, We're at
(45:17):
First Contact pot. First Contact is a production of Dot
dot dot Media, executive produced by Lori Siegel and Derek Dodge.
I will say we're being creative and executive producing this
from home at the moment. This episode was produced and
edited by Sabine Jansen and Jack Reagan. The original theme
music is by Xander Singh. I'm sending my thoughts to
(45:38):
each and every one of you, and so was our
whole First Contact crew during this time. I hope that
everyone is staying home, staying healthy, and staying human. First
Contact is a production of dot dot dot Media and iHeartRadio.
(45:58):
First Contact with Lori c Goal is a production of
Dot dot dot Media and iHeartRadio,
First Contact with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot
Dot Dot Media and iHeartRadio. When it comes to the
future of intimacy, there's so much fear I think now
around physical touch. Will we see technology built specifically to
replace human touch?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yeah. Gatebox is kind of this virtual assistant, similar to
Siri or Google Home. It turns on the lights in
your home, controls the temperature, but also sends emotional text
messages saying I miss you and I can't wait for
you to get home. And this businessman returns home and
explains how you know, it's such a relief to come
home to someone, insinuating that this technology is actually someone.
(00:45):
So it does enter this really gray area where technology
is once sort of this thing to support us, and
now as.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Like, yeah, are we going to completely just replace it.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
It's April twenty twenty and much of the world's population
is now locked down in their homes to avoid spreading coronavirus.
We are living in isolation, many of us confronting this alone.
And that's because maybe one of the hardest parts of
this is physical interaction is actually a liability. So what
(01:28):
does this mean for one of humanity's most important forms
of expression sex. Physical intimacy is a form of communication.
It's a human need that goes beyond sexual desire. It's
about human connection. So how can we continue to meet
that desire and need for intimacy during these times? Could
(01:49):
there be tech that helps us combat loneliness and strengthens intimacy.
But we've also got to be careful. Remember we've already
developed these intimate relationships with our devices, and now we're
relying on them even more for human connection. Could we
go too far? And where will we draw the line?
My guest Briany Cole, has been talking about how sexuality
(02:12):
and technology are changing intimacy and relationships for a long time.
She's been asking questions like, could immersive technology enable you
to really feel your partner even if they're not close by?
What if virtual reality could teach you about consent? Could
a virtual assistant become a replacement for a boyfriend or
girlfriend sending you emotional messages throughout the day. I know
(02:36):
it sounds strange, but let's be honest, It's twenty twenty
and I've heard weirder. So ask yourself what platforms will
be built in this era around intimacy. Will these innovations
become mainstream change the fabric of our society or what
it means to be human. So let's talk about sex.
(02:57):
I'm Lorie Siegel and this is first Contact Briany Cole.
You are a leading voice when it comes to the
future of technology and sex, and you're the host of
the Future of Sex Podcasts, which is super fascinating and
I think everyone should listen to it. And you're also
(03:17):
the founder of the International Sex Tech Hakathon, which we
are most certainly going to talk about. But I want
to start with like a basic question, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
What's the right thing to say these days? You know,
I think, yeah, there's a bomb that could be let
off with anyone saying how are they doing in such circumstances.
For me, I'm waking up in Australia where things are
pretty great, so I don't really have that much to
complain about. If the mandate is to stay home and
watch Netflix. Everyone here is healthy and well on my side.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
You know, I was interested before in a lot of
your work and talking about tech and not just like
you know, we'll get into what like sex tech is,
but you know, talking about the future of technology and intimacy,
which I think is such an interesting topic, but I
think it's even more relevant now, Like we're all sitting
(04:12):
here in self isolation and our means of human connection
is through a computer, through a device, So technology is
enabling intimacy in all these different types of ways. So
I feel like your work is so interesting. It was
always interesting, and it's now it's super relevant, and that
maybe the rest of the world caught up to the
conversation that you were having about sex and technology for
(04:36):
a really long time. Sure, So to start, just what
is it about sex and technology that fascinates you?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, technology fascinates me in general, just in the way
it's impacted human behavior and how much it's changed my
own life and growing up and you know, growing up
pre internet to having Internet. So I've always been so
fascinated by the way technology sort of changes human behavior,
maybe with a little bit of lag, a little bit
(05:02):
of cultural lag, and how that all intersects together. And
that's sort of my background, being at tech companies and
working for governments and doing all sorts of different things,
always tech related, but with that sort of sociology angle.
And so for me, the biggest one that we weren't
talking about was sex. You know, sex is still so
taboo and such a stigmatized topic because it's often relegated
(05:26):
to this like dark, sleazy corner of the Internet or
the side of a highway or somewhere you know, in
our minds. But in fact, you know, we all got here,
presumably by someone having sex, and we all are sexual.
You know, the way we walk in the world, the
way we go about in the world is our sexuality.
So I really was fascinated by the way these two
(05:49):
you know, forces in our life intersect. And I think
you're so right, Lauran, that today we're facing even more
this sort of confronting part of technology being the gateway
to connection and intimacy and what does that mean? And
for me in terms of where that's led my work,
I think what's been really interesting is the questions I
(06:12):
used to get before about were exhaustive on the topic
of like robots and virtual girlfriends, right, and we can
talk a lot more about what sex tech is beyond that,
But I found that people were so hung up about
are we going to be replaced by you know, virtual
boyfriends and girlfriends? And what an interesting time to be
(06:33):
living through where many people are stuck at home and
their boyfriend or girlfriend is somewhere else on the planet
or even down the street right now that they can't see.
And also how much we're realizing we need connection, like
we actually do need human connection and it probably can't
be replaced by a robot and physical touch and all
(06:54):
these things that now we're kind of, you know, realizing
if we didn't have the recent search before, I think
now where we have the proof that intimacy is so
important and that probably can't be replaced. But the great
thing about technologies it can enhance and solve for these
needs sometimes.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And so kind of taking a step back, how do
you define sex tech? Like this is a term we
throw around, and I thought it was interesting what you
said about like when people think of like sex tech,
they think of like VR porn and robot sex and
what your work does, which is really interesting. Is it
just kind of is like, Okay, there's so much more,
you know. So how do you define sex tech?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, So the definition I use is sex tech is
any technology designed to enhance intimacy. And when I talk
about sex tech in that way, what I'm really talking
about is not just sex. The physical act, but sexuality,
so this big umbrella topic that encompasses everything that we
think about when we think about sexuality, education, health, crime
and violence, reporting, medicine, gender identity. These are things as
(07:59):
well as of course intimacy and relationships and actually having sex,
that encompass the sex side of sex. Tech. And then
on the technology side, you know, all the sexy stuff
like the robots and virtual reality, but also so the
fairly mundane technology that we already use that we don't
(08:19):
even think is technology that could be our hands. It
could be the you know, stone dildo that was found
in a cave thirty five thousand years ago in Germany,
which was the first discovery of a dildo. But yeah,
just thinking about this in a broader sense. So when
we think about technology and how that intersex with sexuality,
then we start to get some really interesting results, even
(08:40):
if it's just like apps or chatbots for sex education
or interesting new products for painful sex. I think we
often go, oh, sex is all about like pleasure and hedonism,
but sometimes there's things like what about a sci problem
globally or you know, issues with painful sex or premature ejaculate.
Those issues can also benefit from interesting technologies that may
(09:05):
be able to help sult them.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
So I've been covering tech for a minute, right, and
we both know it's like a predominantly male industry. It
must have been interesting being you and being in the
rooms like you worked at places like Microsoft, right, like
you worked in all these different places, you know, with
this point of view on sex and technology and kind
of the future.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, I mean, I'd always had an interest in technology.
I find it fascinating to be on the edge of
things and had always sort of been that kid that
was like looking at the new thing, or if people like, well,
what's the new app coming out, they'd always be like, oh,
Brian would know that. So that sort of is the
common I think theme in my work life was always
looking at future focused things really. But underneath all of that,
(09:50):
I think was this feeling that you know, growing up
having a fairly sort of average childhood, fantastic childhood, the
average shout in Australia, but we don't really talk about
sex in much detail. Right. You go to school and
you get somewhat of an anatomy lesson sex education, I
think we can agree is pretty crappy everywhere in the
world anyway, so I didn't have any language to describe
(10:13):
my sexuality. And at the same time, I had an
experience where again I think is fairly common for women,
is growing up. I remember being just so excited. I
was in grade six, so must have been twelve eleven
or twelve years old, and I was going to Target
with my mum to buy my first bra, and I
was so excited. I just had this sense that something
(10:36):
big was happening. You know, when you're a kid, so
you're not fully developed mentally, but I was physically developing,
and so I was just like, this is this big occasion.
And I came home and I was just elated. I
was like, Mom and Dad, you have to take photos
of me in this bra. This is amazing. And to
their credit, they were like, yeah, this is great, Like
(10:57):
let's celebrate. You're joining them, you know. And the same
thing happened when I got my period and they cracked
a bottle of champagne, like they've just been really positive
about that. And what I noticed was that was the
only positive message I got about being a woman. In fact,
when I went to school and then onto university and work,
(11:18):
a lot of the messages were more about being small
and you know, making my voice small, but also being
physically small. I always felt like I didn't really understand,
especially as a twelve year old, why something was a
bit wrong about what was happening to me. But I
always felt like I had to be smaller. So that
(11:38):
was sort of the thread I think that really led
me when I found sex tech and I thought, hey,
I know how to talk about technology and sexuality has
been such a silent influence in my life in the
way I've matured as a woman. I think this is
really important. And if I could go back in time
and tell that twelve year old girl, you know, being
(11:58):
a woman, that's going to be part of your strength,
and that's going to lead you on too all these
other things. I think I would have gone a lot
further in the work world and you know, in studies
and everything faster if I'd embraced my womanhood. So I
got involved in this through some research on the Nightlife
Project and found these guys talking about virtual reality, you know,
(12:20):
simulations with models in hot tubs and sort of the cliche.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
You were working with absolute right, and you had to
go around and you wanted to look at the future
of like nightclubs. So you went and actually interviewed a
bunch of different executives about it, and this is what
you heard.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, And so I found I guess what I thought,
what I thought I would find about sex tech is
I found, you know, these guys designing virtual reality scent releases.
And you know, when I asked them, what's the craziest
thing you're working on, they said, Oh, we're designing scent
releases so we can simulate being in a hot tub
with three supermodels on a Saturday night. And to me
that was kind of like, oh, man, no, no, that
(12:56):
can't be true. You know, that's every sci fi film
whereever se of like the dudes in their garage making
their virtual girlfriends. And it really prompted me to think about,
how do I turn this research into something else that's
much more focused in on sex and with this this
story underneath of like, I think this is really important,
like this is something I've been missing, which evolved into
(13:18):
the future of sex podcast. And what I had found
after the first few episodes is there is a whole
community of women working in sex tech which I had
no idea.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
About, which is super interesting, right because if you even
like look at like products and a lot of like
the sex stores, they seem seedy and dark and this
and that. And I remember interviewing a woman named Polly
from Unbound like years ago who was saying, like, there's
like a huge market for sex toys that women actually want,
and you know, and something that is created by women
(13:50):
that feels different, that has a different feel to it.
So I think it seems like an opportunity to some degree.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, I think it was, and you know, I think
there's an even bigger opportunity now, I think. And so
since I started the podcast, I've noticed this growing interest
and excitement with female entrepreneurs entering the space designing something
for themselves and designing something that aesthetically looks beautiful that
can live on your bedside table and not hidden away
(14:18):
and shameful, and also works for their bodies. What I
think is interesting now looking to the future is I
think there's going to be a more inclusive wave where
we're designing for all different bodies, including men. Right because
male sex toys that's still very taboo. But I think
there's going to be new opportunities opening up there after
(14:39):
this sort of wave of female led innovation.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Okay, we've got to take a quick break to hear
from our sponsors more as my guests.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
After the break, I want to go.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
To this moment because this moment is so specific that
you know, we're in this moment where in many cases
it's actually dangerous to touch each other. Like what role
will technology play and redefining intimacy in the COVID era.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, So if we think about intimacy, touch is sort
of the first thing that comes to mind. It's such
a big dimension of intimacy. But I think what technology
is doing today and enabling outside of touch is these
other dimensions to intimacy, emotional intimacy, intellectual intimacy, and like
(15:46):
shared experiences, whether that's spiritual or like share connections or
doing things online. So physicals are really tough one unless
you're you know, got haptic technology or you've got teledildonics,
which you know, I think that's becoming increasingly interesting. And
for those that have never heard of tellidialdonics before, teleidealdonics
(16:07):
are sex toys enabled by a Wi Fi or Bluetooth
connection so that you could say, have sex whatever your
definition of sex is, but use them with your partner
wherever they are in the world. So I think that's
kind of helping with the physical touch aspect of intimacy.
But really what technology is facilitating is conversations and connections,
(16:29):
so emotional connections and being able to understand that and
also understand yourself, you know, not only through zoom calls,
but through learning, right like Esther Perel's doing amazing webinars
at the moment. There's so many resources online that are
coming to the fore now, whether that's O dot School,
which is kind of like your Netflix for sex education,
for adult sex education, or omges or more sort of
(16:52):
adult like Kenneth play dot com who has his sex
Hacker series. So there's all these ways that's opening up
conversations around sex, around how you're feeling, and also these
intellectual conversations I think as well. I think people are
looking for guidance and they're also looking for play. If
they can't do that with the person that's in the
(17:13):
same room, how does that happen through the Internet. I
think people are going to be a lot better at
phone sex based time sex out of necessity.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
It'll be interesting you talk about like haptic technology too,
Like do you think we'll see platforms built on this moment.
Like people have been talking about haptic technology for a
while because we can't physically be with each other and
there's going to be a lot of fear for a while,
maybe until they find like a vaccine for this. So
especially for folks who are a single. Will we see
tech companies in trying out new technology more haptic technology
(17:45):
or that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, So haptic technology essentially is transmitting the sense of touch,
and I think there's some really interesting players that are
starting to do it that probably as you're saying this,
I'm thinking they're definitely speeding up their innovation and time
to market to get these things out, whether that's gloves
that you're putting on that will be able to transmit
(18:07):
the sense of touch to connected sex toys and sex
toys that have that haptic technology. So I do I
think that will happen. I haven't heard of anyone coming
out yet, but we're still very early saying we're going
this direction. What I do know is that people are
buying sex toys like they're buying food and alcohol right now,
(18:27):
so it's becoming a somewhat essential item.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Well, it was the New York Health Department. Their guidelines
said the safest sex is sex with yourself. So I
mean it's been written, and it's interesting that you've talked
a little bit about a kissinger.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Is that what it mean?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I think it's a good example of haptic technology for
folks who don't understand, right, Like I always like to
go a teeny bit black mirror, but not too much
black mirror, and like what could the world look like?
But can you explain what kissinger is? Is that how
you even say it? Is that?
Speaker 5 (18:59):
Right?
Speaker 1 (18:59):
All right?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
The kissinger had left my mind. I don't have one,
but maybe I should get one right now to like
give my mom a kiss on the cheeks. So the
kissinger was developed in Singapore, I believe, and it transmits
your kiss. It looks very much like almost like a
phone charger, like a smartphone charger, DOC that you would
like a little cot that you would put your phone in,
(19:22):
but instead it's sort of fitted with these senses around
the phone that you can kiss. Almost looks like it
doesn't look like lips. It looks like something you'd put
your lips on. And that transmits the kiss to the
other person who you know, who has the kissinger who's
holding it up to their mouth too. So I thought
that it was such an interesting product in that it
(19:42):
wasn't also talking about intimacy, which I think is true
now of intimacy between partners, but intimacy between family members
and also of course between you know you in a
celebrity or perhaps more like camsite, those sorts of things
where we're already seeing teledoplonyx being used. It's like, what
would it mean to be able to kiss brad Pit?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yeah, I mean it's like these technologies that we all
thought were kind of weird and a little bit strange,
something like this happens and there's a use case, right,
Like we're using haptic technology that feels a little far out,
But then you think about the fact that maybe you
have a boyfriend somewhere else around the world, or you
have your family back in another place and you can't
physically go be around them. I mean, it actually creates
(20:28):
an interesting use case for this type of stuff. I
think it'll be interesting to see.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, I do. And then the other one that's less sexual,
but it's kind of cute, is the heartbeat pillow, where
you know you have the heartbeat you have a little
bracelet on that tracks your heartbeat, and it transmits it
to something you can put under your pillow on the
other end, so you can hear you love it's heartbeat,
which kind of sounds soothing.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, I mean, especially in these times. Right, you've talked
a little bit about teenagers losing their FaceTime virginity, children
accessing porn as young as something like five years old,
loneliness on the rise. The journalist in me looks at
this era of coronavirus and says, like, all of these
things that you've talked about could only be magnified right
(21:11):
by increased usage of online activity being home loneliness, you know,
walk us through that, like and first of all, talk
to us a little bit about you talk about teens
losing their FaceTime virginity. What are you talking about? And
then also, is this a moment do we need to
be really careful right now that as we've gone all
in that you know, we don't go too far.
Speaker 6 (21:33):
Yeah, I mean to that last bit, I just feel
so strongly that people are really craving connection in a
human sense now that I feel like people are getting
the sense that, oh yeah, like we don't want to
just live on the internet after this especially, that's my sense.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
But for FaceTime virginity, when we're talking about that, that's
something totally I had no idea about till six months ago.
But kids talk about losing their FaceTime virginity the same
way we used to talk about our first kiss, and
that is really like, oh, who do you you lose
your face time virginity too, meaning who did you have?
You know, FaceTime like sex on FaceTime, masturbate on FaceTime
(22:12):
with And that seems to be a trend in anecdotally
who I talk to, which are young kids about sex
and you know how they're using technology. The other thing
I've noticed, because my partner is a teacher and is
doing all his classes remotely now, is that kids are
really sad. But kids really miss their friends. So I
(22:35):
wonder if they will also realize that physical touch is
actually really much more important than sex on FaceTime.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
I go back to there's like a group of people
in Japan. I don't know if you've heard of them,
that millions of them have like socially withdrawn its called hikamori,
and they live a full on digital existence. This was
all before coronavirus and they've been linked to depression and
psychiatric conditions and all sorts of stuff, and the cure
for them is physical connection and being around people and whatnot.
(23:04):
And so I worry that we're going all in digitally,
you know, do like, what do we need to keep
in mind?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
I think about that too. I mean, I think there's
going to be, you know, three types of people that
emerge from this, the people that are just ready to
get out as soon as you know, things are lifted
and life sort of seems to return to being able
to go outside and socialize. Then there'll be the people
that are a little bit hesitant that won't be going
to the football game still everything's good, and they're delayed
(23:34):
like that longer pause. And then as you say, will
there be people that think I'm not coming out of isolation,
I'm thriving in isolation. And we think whatever happened to Melissa?
Where'd she go? Which is also an interesting setting for
a sci fi book, But it's life right now, and
(23:55):
I think it's so it's so early to know. We
see a lot of stuff now, you know, on the
internet saying you know, make sure you know, turn off
the screens and move for thirty minutes and all these
sort of recipes for success in isolation. But the truth is,
I don't think anyone really knows.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yet, right what do you think intimacy will look like
in the virtual world. You've done a lot of work
on VR and what the future will look like. I
don't know if we'll all have headsets by the time
this is over, But what do you think it'll look like?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, in the VR world, you know, it still feels
in the sex space kind of clunky. I have so
many hopes and aspirations for VR because it's such an
intimate and interactive, immersive experience. When it's great, like when
you've done amazing things in VR, it's sort of like
(24:46):
your brain's changing. You're just like I can imagine all
the possibilities, And for me, they came out of thinking
about education because it is such a global issue, such
a problem. I think such an opportunity right now as well,
especially with rents at home being able to kind of
monitor their kids somewhat or understand how much they're using technology.
(25:07):
I think, Wow, wouldn't it be amazing if we had
VR sex education. I think that will come soon, as
it has for like other subjects like history and science
in VR. Why not have something like education and because
it's so personal to you know, going back to that
version of yourself that's twelve or thirteen years old and
all these things happening to your body being able to
ask someone in the privacy of VR, but also that
(25:30):
immersive experience or you know, talk to someone about STIs
and really have that you know, practice even you know,
we talked previously about these sex education apps in VR
that are being trialed, you know, games that allow you
to go through nightclubs and practice saying no.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
That's so interesting, like what does that even look like?
I mean, by the way, like may everyone learn more
about consent? But this idea of consent and VR is
such an interesting concept.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, I think you know, people are really trying to
crack the consent code, Like how do we teach something
that is always ongoing, you know, like it's always ongoing
and so it's so nuanced. And people have tried sex
tech before for consent in the blockchain. I don't know
if you saw that at all, but didn't work right
(26:22):
because it's not like you can sign a contract and
you've got consent. But the idea of practically learning about
consent by going through scenarios in VR to allow you
to practice saying no, well, asking for consent is actually
a really great idea, and so there's been a couple
of games developed. We had one developed at the last
HACKATHONI in Melbourne. There's a couple of years ago. There
(26:44):
was one developed in the States as well. That one
was really interesting. It was geared towards college aged women
going through a nightclub and practicing saying no. The idea
being once you get out into the real world, it's
a lot easier if you've practiced being an un comfortable
situation to go there again, just like your practice were
like a job interview. So I thought that was really
(27:06):
neat and it's inevitable right that these sort of educational
practical learnings should appear in VR as soon as we
all catch up, which maybe is.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Now, okay, we've got to take a quick break to
hear from our sponsors more with my guest after the break. God,
(27:39):
I remember doing an interview with a woman. We did
it in the virtual world, like in VR. We did
the interview about she said she was sexually harassed in
the virtual world. Someone kept touching her and it was
his real voice and she could hear him, but she
couldn't there was no button in the game for her
to push him away. And it was such a fascinating concept.
(28:01):
And she said she had been sexually harassed in the
real world and it gave her the same feeling, because
the idea of VR is it's supposed to make you
feel like it's real, and then we'll add haptics one
day and it will feel real, right, So like, it
was this really interesting ethical conversation around like what does
even consent to actually look like in the virtual world
and gaming too, and a lot of it is, you know,
(28:22):
these games weren't necessarily built by women who will be
experiencing some of this.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Yeah, it is often an afterthought. And I thought her
experience was so fascinating and kind of mirrors what we
would think about today with revenge porn and other ways
that technology is being used to harass people, and how
terrible it even feels. If you've ever received a creepy
email or a creepy DM or dick pics, all those
(28:49):
sorts of things are often an afterthought or just the
unintended consequence of developing this technology, and so Yeah, an
ethical committee for sex tech globally? Is that what we need?
Speaker 1 (29:03):
You heard it here first. I mean, especially as the
world goes I think more digital and even I think
this moment will be interesting because people will be experimenting
more with intimacy over zoom. I mean, my god, don't
take your clothes off on zoom.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Like.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
There's so many hacking issues, you know, I mean things
that people I don't even think this could lead to
a rise in revenge porn. I don't think people even
have really thought too far ahead. So it's just things
you begin to think about when we're looking at it
through this current lens of this pandemic.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Absolutely, I think there's a whole story there to be
told around safe sex virtually. You know, what does that
even look like that we haven't even touched yet?
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, what does that look like? You're my sex expert?
What is safe sex and the virtual pandemic era look like?
We know that they said the safest sex is with yourself,
But what is safe sex and the virtual pandemic hacking
world look like?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah? Maybe like turn off zoom, you know, or removing
all the metadata from your sex photos. You know, there's
so many different things that we're the majority of us
are not aware of how to sext safely or have
sex safely online. To your point about zoom or like
what platform is really safe? I think the safest thing
is not to be on video online, but that's not realistic,
(30:20):
especially in this time, so it's realizing. Yeah, well, if
you will do that, maybe you want to remove your
head completely from that experience so that you know you're
not doing it. Maybe you're comfortable, maybe you're using another tool,
But I don't have the knowledge to know which is
the safest one. But I actually think it's a great
idea for someone, for an entrepreneur that's out there, to
(30:41):
think about creating a comprehensive education program around how to
do this all safely. You know, we have such troubles
even like with online predators with children now as well. Sorry,
I don't have a more comprehensive answer for you.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
No, but I think it's interesting though, and even speaking
of entrepreneurs, like when it comes to the future of intimacy,
there's so much fear I think now around physical touch.
Will we see technology built specifically to replace human touch?
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Don't break my heart, it could happen. I know I
just really hope not. I mean, I saw this interesting
art installation, thank goodness. It wasn't like a real product yet.
But it's called the End of Life Machine. Have you
seen this? So it was developed in Asia, and it's
(31:36):
a soothing, calming robot for when your family can't be
there at the end of your life, which in these
days is so sad that that's a reality. And the
robot strokes you. So it strokes you on the arm
or wherever you want to be touched and speaks to
you in a coming voice and tells you it's going
(31:56):
to be okay, and that your family love you and
that you know you're going to be fine. I'll send
you the video. Anyone can look it up on YouTube,
the end of Life care Machine. And then once the
person has passed, all the life support equipment is turned
off and then the robot tells them like, yeah, well
they've gone now, and you know it's done. This person
(32:19):
is dead at this time. So those sorts of things
are replacing touch at a time when it, you know,
is that is such an intimate, critical moment, if not
the most right at your time of death, when you
want to be comforted. Perhaps it will become more than
an art project. Perhaps that is something that will need
to be developed.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah, God, I can't even I mean it just that
feels so raw right now with you know, one of
the most visceral things about this moment is people who
have loved ones who are dying and they're not able
to be there with them. The idea of dying alone
without physically being around people, it's just heartbreaking. I wonder
(33:02):
if this is a weird one, but I promise I'm
going to go somewhere with this. We you know, we're
all spending more and more time at home, and we
were already attached to our devices, and technology was already
getting more human. Do you worry that people will start
developing relationships with machines? Or maybe let me put it
(33:26):
this in, do you worry that people will start developing
feelings for machines?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
There's a lot of memes going around where people are
and they're relating to it, right you know, like day
thirteen of Quarantine and they're talking back to Siri or
you know, getting into a relationship with machines. Perhaps, you know,
our tendency is to anthropomorphize things that almost look like
it and behave like humans but aren't quite humans. I
(33:51):
don't worry about it right now, but you know, talk
to me in a month and maybe I will. But
right now what I'm seeing is people going, I need
so much more than than this. Like I'm realizing that
technology is not the answer to everything. And you know
there's zoom fatigue and hangovers using technology and people going, yeah,
well what else can I do?
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Well, it's interesting. We had a woman on who has
a company called Replica, which I don't know if you're
part of. It's like they do companion bots, so like
bots on your phone that are almost like your friend
or could be you know, Replica for a relationship if
you want. And you know, they have many, many users.
(34:33):
And I was speaking to her today and people can,
you know, say anything they want to these bots. They
can say, oh, I'm afraid I love you. There were
bots respond with lots of empathy. They're trained by psychologists
and so obviously this is a very high stress moment.
And she was telling me that something like people used
to send about fifty five messages or something per day
(34:53):
and now they're sitting up to eighty messages per day
since coronavirus stuff more and more people are paying for
pre me and bot features. I just you know, it
makes me wonder if, because you've talked a lot about loneliness,
if people will be looking to technology in a way,
you know, to try to fill a void. I know
(35:15):
you've talked about I think gate Box, which was an
interesting example of this too.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Yeah, it sounds like people are looking for relief more
than reliance after this, you know, one would hope, but
it's so interesting thinking We can chat about gate Box too,
but just thinking about the chat bots and the relief
that they're providing in this time is so interesting and
that have been developed. I'm not sure if we've talked
(35:41):
or you've talked before about mend, which was the chatbot
for heartbreak. So I think chatbots are doing interesting things
like support and relief in the sex tech world. Outside
gate Box, the other one is slap bot, which is
the robot that you can sext with, so you can
learn how to sext using slatbot, and she texts you
back or he texts you back, depending on what you
(36:03):
want so.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
And teaches you how to sex. Does that, that's what
it does.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Yeah, which is great because like who really you know,
not a lot of people know how to sext well,
I think, and like it's really fun, you know in
terms of like finding new ideas, but also like getting
consent and doing it in a really fun way. I
think now we're more and more relying on all this
technology to date and to go through those early stages
(36:27):
of relationships where usually we'd be able to like kiss
or something. So now people, from what I've heard, are
turning to sexting really fast. My friend's like, I'm getting
way too many dick pics for, you know, having just
met this guy. So slapbots this chatbot that you can
practice sexting with and she'll sex back, or you can
make it a guy and he'll sex back. So I
(36:49):
thought that was really cool. And then yeah, gate Box
is kind of this further version down the line which
leans into less sex and more like intimacy. We think
think about intimacy. Yes, there's the physical aspect, but this
emotional aspect is so interesting, and where you were talking
about with Replica and that idea that can can that
(37:10):
be replaced that emotional support and Gatebox is similar to
Siri or Google Home. It's sort of this virtual assistant
turns on the lights in your home controls the temperature,
but also sends emotional text messages saying I miss you
and I can't wait for you to get home. And
you know the ads if you google them for Gateboxer
kind of eerie. You know, this businessman returns home and
(37:33):
explains how you know, it's such a relief to come
home to someone, insinuating that this technology is actually someone
and it's marketed as a replacement girlfriend. So it does
enter this really gray area where technology is once sort
of this thing to support us, and now it's.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Like, yeah, are we going to completely just replace it?
Which goes totally against what I just originally said.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
In all fairness, I will say if like Alexa like, oh,
I don't want to say it too largeal here, if
I forget we're doing this from my home like everything,
you know, if she if she just made sure everything
was warm all the time and then sent me nice messages,
I'd probably be like, oh, I'm down, I get it,
You're amazing, I love you. Yeah. If she made sure
I like, I like the heat all the way up
(38:20):
at my apartment. So if she just kept my place
warm and said like really nice things to be over
tax messages. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Yeah, I see it, but for some reason, I've always
saw that. But it's not sure. We have cases where
people are marrying gate box, right, but it seems to
me that role being fulfilled is more like, yeah, an assistant, right,
like a virtual assistant rather than a virtual lover.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Right. I just wonder what gets lost there, right, and
like what we had to be so careful about, like
you know what gets lost when you lose human connection?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
And yeah, this is what we're all finding out now.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Yeah, I mean, and so take me to some of
the hackathons you do, because you have so much interesting
innovation that comes out of these. So tell us about
these events that you throw on them, some of the
stuff that's come out of them.
Speaker 6 (39:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I think the sex Tex hakathons are so interesting because
you're not just pulling together people from the tech world,
which typically is what hackathons do, right. You know, you
come together for a weekend and you hack on a project.
With the Sextec cackathons, they're largely geared towards people that
don't have that much familiarity with technology. So we'll see
(39:35):
you know, educators came mums, designers, just people from all
different parts of professions and backgrounds. Students usually between the
ages of like twenty years old and forty years old.
One hundred people together under the one roof, and we
give them challenges associated with sexuality to solve through technology.
The other interesting thing about the.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Hackthons like what kind of challenges?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
So, how do you xx education more accessible for teenage boys,
or how do you make condoms cool, or how do
you provide more sexual expression for people living with disabilities
or disabled persons, depending on how you like to phrase that.
So issue these challenges around sexuality and then invite people
(40:22):
to form teams and build whatever you know they think
is going to be the solution. So at the end
of that, you're seeing things that maybe teledaldonics, maybe interesting vibraidors.
You know, we had a sex voice activated vibrator for
people in wheelchairs, which was really cool. Out of the
Sydney hackathon, We've also done them in Singapore, New York,
(40:44):
and we just most recently did one in February in Melbourne,
and the winning team there developed a game for kids.
It was a team of mothers and also you know, entrepreneurs.
But I think the mother part was relevant because they're
all struggling with talking to their kids. It's about sex,
and they developed this game. And that's sort of the
great you know innovations that come out of this is
(41:06):
people come because they have an interest, they're curious, and
they probably have a need already for something in their
life that they're really passionate about that they want to change,
whether that's a conversation with their kids, a relationship issue,
sexual health problem. And it's great to see that sort
of grassroots innovation when so much of the industry has
(41:26):
been driven by, you know, access to capital and like
the tech industry, mostly male, it's interesting to gather a
lot of non males in a room and see.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
What comes of it. Right, So you've created a game,
talk a little bit about it and what's the idea
behind it.
Speaker 5 (41:45):
Yeah, So we created wheel of four Play really to
give people a space to play which wasn't so focused
on technology but was focused on themselves.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
And we started this with the intention of it just
being for couples, and now we're moving into it being
for singles and for people that they're dating as well.
But if you go to wheelerfourplay dot com you'll see it.
It's basically a modern version of a spin the wheel
type game that offers you different ideas and inspiration around
what you might like to do with your partner. If
(42:16):
you're at home with your partner, I think everyone's fearful
of like is my marriage going to last through this?
Or like, how can we still have sex in a
fun way? I really just wanted to find a fun
thing to do. I think, other than all the guidance
and the knowledge and the tools that are out there
dealing with this emotional side of intimacy and everything that
we're going, is there a lighthearted way for us to
(42:40):
be able to connect with one another? And that is
what Wheell of four play is.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I mean, what do you think the future of sex
tech looks like?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
I think it's for me. Whenever I ask this question
to people in the podcast, the resounding answer is something
similar to what I would say, and that it's a
future that looks more open, more accessible, shame free, less judgment,
probably non gendered if we can go there. But that's
all sort of encapsulates this cultural social message or conversation
(43:14):
rather than an actual technology. You know, I think when
I think about the future, it's not actually all to
do with technology in the latest innovation. It's actually like
how a our attitudes changing and how is technology changing
our attitudes? And that's what I hope for when I
talk about the future of sex is less focus on
like this cool technology is going to change the way
(43:35):
we have sex, but actually, like no, our attitudes are
going to be much more open to this, and sex
and sexuality is going to be normalized and from their
amazing things will happen.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Do you think that this pandemic will be net positive
for technology and intimacy or net negative.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
I'm forever an optimist, So for me, I really feel
strongly that people are going to find interesting ways to
adapt in their relationships and that will be a positive,
whether that results in end of some relationships that just
weren't healthy to you know, people finding love over the
(44:12):
internet or in unexpected relationships. For me, I think this
is actually a great moment for us to pause and
adapt the way we think about intimacy.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Okay, guys, that's it for this week's show. Now, I
know these are strange times. If you're sitting at home
and listening to this, I'd love to hear from you.
How are you doing, What do you want to hear
more of reach out to me. You can text me
at nine one seven five four zero three four one zero.
Throughout the crisis, we'll be hosting zoom town halls on
(44:55):
a variety of issues like mental health, love, sex, leadership,
productivity with guests that I think are interesting and relevant
to this moment. So follow along on our social media
to join us for some human ish contact. I'm at
Lori Siegel on Twitter and Instagram and the show is
at First Contact podcast on Instagram on Twitter, We're at
(45:17):
First Contact pot. First Contact is a production of Dot
dot dot Media, executive produced by Lori Siegel and Derek Dodge.
I will say we're being creative and executive producing this
from home at the moment. This episode was produced and
edited by Sabine Jansen and Jack Reagan. The original theme
music is by Xander Singh. I'm sending my thoughts to
(45:38):
each and every one of you, and so was our
whole First Contact crew during this time. I hope that
everyone is staying home, staying healthy, and staying human. First
Contact is a production of dot dot dot Media and iHeartRadio.
(45:58):
First Contact with Lori c Goal is a production of
Dot dot dot Media and iHeartRadio,
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