July 2, 2025 • 53 mins
One of the core values of Buzz Knight Media Productions is supporting the great work of charitable organizations. We love the work of Home Base here in Boston which supports veterans and their families and General Jack Hammond and Dr. Ron Hirshberg do amazing work along with their team. Their podcast is called Home Base Nation and on this episode, the great singer songwriter Mary Gauthier.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Music Saved Me.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hey there, amln Hoffman, host of the Music Saved Me podcast,
and from time to time we like to recommend and
share other podcasts we love with you. We really love
the great work of all the wonderful people at Home
Based Nation in Boston and all the great work they
do to support our heroes, the veterans and their families,
and we invite you to check out this episode of
(00:23):
Home Based Nation featuring a past guest that we had
on this podcast, the great singer songwriter Force of Nature
Mary Goshet.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Revels and rules would be.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Behold to.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Juney Wecord moreing Jeans revels Rules, it would be.
Speaker 5 (01:01):
The song you're listening to is called Rifles and Rosary
Beats on the album with the same title that was
Grammy nominated for Best Folk Album in twenty eighteen. It
was written by two people, Mary Gosche and Iraq veteran
Joe Costello. Mary was introduced to co writing with veterans
through the organization's Songwriting with Soldiers. She says this type
(01:23):
of work is all about agency, creating a place for
the service member to transition from being the story to
becoming the storyteller, and she writes in her recent book,
Saved by a Song, this is what songs do best.
They show our insides on the outside. On Home Based
Nation Today, a conversation with songwriter, author, and military family
(01:47):
member Mary Gosche. I'm your host, Ron Hershberg, Thanks for
tuning in. A New Orleans native, Mary had a revelation
in July nineteen ninety while listening on her car radio
to the song Strange Fire by the Indigo Girls. The
song ended, she clenched the steering wheel and cried, and
(02:09):
she tells me I was in pain, a pain of
living in unlived life. She may have been showing success
on paper at the time, a head chef and owner
of the thriving restaurant Dixie Kitchen in Boston, but her
life was spiraling downward with addiction, alcohol, failed relationships mixed
with sadness.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Yeah, I remember banging my hands against the steering wheel
and crying. I was miserable. I was successful, but I
didn't I wasn't sober, and I wasn't happy.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
A few months later, she was pulled over for drunk
driving and things started to change for the better, and
she has remained sober since for thirty two years. Through songs,
she discovered that she could express things that she was
not able to express in other ways. She gained confidence
in writing and performing.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, I look at it as it's magic. You take
some of the darkest days of your life and write
about it in a song, and you make something beautiful
out of it. I mean, that's alchemy. And here's the catch.
You're not going to outrun it. You can't outrun it.
It's with you. It's in you, it's in your body,
(03:19):
it's in your brain, it's in your soul, it's in
your emotional makeup. You're not going to outrun it. And
so for me, the answer was to stop running and
start slowly walking towards it and trying to alchemize it
with music and song. I didn't know that's what I
was doing. Of course, this is all in retrospect.
Speaker 5 (03:35):
She wrote about early childhood trauma and both the pain
and blessings of being adopted at eleven months of age.
She wrote about family alcoholism, and her three wars growing
up Vietnam, her parents war with each other, and the
war between she and her father. Mary's dad served in
the Korean War, and her cousin was killed in Vietnam
(03:58):
at the age of twenty three. So the military family
service runs deep and Mary and these days, she continues
to serve others through her songs. For veterans, they can
heal personal wounds and offer something simple but essential, being seen.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
When I start to discuss what I've been able to
do with the veterans, what we've been able to do
with the veterans, the way I look at it is
we're giving agency. You go from being the story to
being the story teller. The storyteller has agency. The storyteller
is able to make choices and to decide how the
(04:35):
story ends.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
When Mary talks about her sessions with songwriting with soldiers,
you can almost hear the phrase in the room, me too, brother,
me too, when she describes service members sharing each other's songs.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
They're all scared. They're scared of being rejected, but the
opposite happens. They are embraced and empathy occurs. Everyone in
the room empathizes, and in that moment they're no longer alone.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
Along with songwriter Beth Nielson Chapman, she wrote with a
group of spouses of EOD or Explosive Ordinance disposal officers
called the War after the War about the challenge of
family reintegration. It's opening line, who's going to care for
the ones who care for the ones who went to war?
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Being married to bomb expert whose job every day is
to dismantle bombs built to kill them, that's just a
crazy marriage to me. That's just that's the most intensity
I've ever heard. It sounds like a pressure cooker every
single day. And they're young people and they have kids,
and their husbands come home different. They come home eventually,
and they come home different. And so that led to
(05:42):
this notion that there's a war after the war and
we don't really talk about it.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
This song, incidentally, was named Song of the Year in
twenty eighteen on NPR by the New Yorkers Malcolm Gladwell.
And just the other day, Mary released her brand new
and eleventh album, Dark Enough to See the Stars, and
we are honored to share a little preview with you,
so stick around for that. Mary joined us from her
Nashville home and on our wall hung two flags, one
(06:11):
for Ukraine and the other a large rainbow American flag,
highlighted by sparkling lights, creating a glow in an interview
in twenty nineteen with the Love to All Project, Mary said,
I am the first openly queer person to play the
Grand Old Opry. I work in a musical genre where
most often I am the only gay person. I don't
(06:32):
let that stop me. I am so much more than
just queer in my work. I focus on what connects
people and it works out well. It's Pride Month, and
this word pride has powerful meaning when having the privilege
of sitting with Mary Gachet. Mary shares with us the
pride of being a supporter of our veterans and military
families and the pride of being a savior of so
(06:54):
many with her songs. Thanks so much for joining us momb.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Down School homes kids in the street.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Long Mary go'she Hello, good to see you.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
Great to see you. I am so happy to have
you on the zoom as they say together, gosh. We
met a few years ago at City Winery in the
back room, the green room, and we met with Mary Judd,
and there was a veteran that you that you had
co written with or was on the songwriting with Soldiers team,
(07:35):
and that was a great moment. I'll get to it
in a little bit. But to sort of see where
you were in your career at that moment, and then
learning more about you and now listening to your book
this past couple of weeks, Wow, the journey was It
just started for me when I got to know you
(07:55):
like three years ago, four years ago. But knowing what
you've pomplished before that time, to me is just it's great.
It's great to talk with you now.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
It's been a it's been a journey, you know, it's
been a journey. I really do believe that music and
song has been integral in my in my recovery, and
in my transformation from a human disaster area and a
functional being.
Speaker 5 (08:27):
Into a functional being. Not only quite functional, but you
know someone who not only wrote this great book saved
by a song, and then went into the studio and
read it and spoke spoken word. So one of the
things you started off in the book, I think it
was near the beginning you said you like to go
for walks, and that's when you kind of breathe think
(08:50):
about ideas.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, yeah, I did that for a decade and it's
actually pivoted now. I swim, okay, I swim a mile
a day, but it's the same process. I'm in another zone.
Ideas come or I sort out stuff without consciously trying
to while I'm just counting my strokes.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
In that sort of state of flow. You know. I
mentioned that, Mary, because I've been going on walks, uh,
and I've been actually doing some running, trying to get
back in shape, and I was I walked and ran
to your book over seven hours in the last couple
of weeks.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Oh wow, so we're we're we're acquainted now.
Speaker 5 (09:35):
Yeah, so you've been hanging out. You didn't know it, Mary,
but you've been hanging out with me for a while,
and we've been like, you know, going down the block,
We've gone around the track. I've had some moments where
I've stopped in my tracks and need to pull over.
And I know that's kind of what you One of
the one of the big parts of your journey was, uh,
(09:58):
was pulling over that pulling over when you heard that
Indigo Girls song Strange Fire.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, there was some message in the bottle for me,
but I didn't know what it was. I didn't know
what it was for quite a while, and it took
it took quite a while to make sense of that feeling.
It was more than just a song. It was there
was so much in that sound and I had no
(10:24):
idea what it was trying to tell me, but it was.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
And you look back on that and I think you
told Amy Ray, who interviewed you, you had the pain
of an unlived life. Can you that's right? Can we
dive into that?
Speaker 1 (10:36):
We can? It's hard to you know, we are really
complex beings and there's so much about that that's hard
to express in language. But I think that drugs and
alcohol blocked me from what I would have done otherwise.
(10:59):
Of course I didn't know that's what was going on.
So I ended up doing what I could, and I did,
you know, pretty well. I found investors. I was able
to be part owner of a couple of restaurants in Boston.
The first one was a little placed on the bottom
of Beacon Hill called Lunch Break across from Mesh General
and we did that successfully for years. And then opened
(11:23):
up Dixie, the Dixie Kitchen, which we did for over
a decade, the Louisiana style food in Boston. And I
had a little clamshack on the beach in Dorchester by
the Salvon Hill Yacht Club Salvn Hill, and I was
able to do that kind of work. But what my
soul was interested in was music and song. And I
(11:49):
hadn't even tried because I didn't think I could. And
when I heard the sound of the Indigo Girl voices,
that just opened a like a I called it a trapdoor,
and I just fell through it. And it was like,
(12:10):
oh my god, what is this feeling? It feels horrible.
I love the song, I loved the sound, but the
feeling felt horrible.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
That's when you pulled over.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, I remember banging my hands against the steering wheel
and crying. I was miserable. I was successful, but I
didn't I wasn't sober, and I wasn't happy, and I
was going down the wrong road fast, like metaphorically, I
was sinking in addictions. And you know, not too long
(12:43):
after that, I got arrested for drunk driving. And that
was the best thing that ever happened to me, because
I got sober. That was July nineteen ninety And.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
You're I think you're thirty two years Can I do
the math?
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Thirty two years clean and sober?
Speaker 5 (12:55):
Yeah, congratulations, my friend.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
And so my early recovery was about trying to make
sense of that feeling about wondering and asking what am
I supposed to be doing? What would I do if
I could do anything? And the answer slowly started to
become you'd be a songwriter.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
It took getting pulled over by a cop and arrested
for drunk driving. But then again, it sounds like when
you were sober was really when the magic happened.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Right right after I got sober, I started to develop
emotionally and spiritually. And you know, anybody addicted to drugs
and alcohol is not developing in any way completely stuck
as a human being in many ways developmentally, I was
(13:50):
fourteen when I got sober at twenty seven.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
You were fourteen when you got sober at twenty seven.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Emotionally, spiritually, yeah, so.
Speaker 5 (14:00):
And when you look at that time, was it the
opportunity to get into music and explore You talk a
lot about your book, how you know, getting getting on
that stage, whether it's club passim or another writer's round
where it's terrifying. But was it the anticipation of the
(14:22):
music that that drove you or was were you actually
feeling that you could write songs and perform and thus
that gave you more drive? It was a chicken of
the egg.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I had no idea what I was doing. I just
knew that that it was compelling to me to do
it and to get better at it. And I was
like everyone in the very beginning, I wasn't good at it,
so I had to learn how to do it. I
remember for quite some time, maybe years, on stage, just praying,
please help me to be as good at this as
(14:54):
I am at making gumbo and jambalaya. You know, it's
just that's all I'm asking Lord, Just get me there.
As you know, as I learned to be in the kitchen,
I knew I could learn to be on stage, but
I had to. I had to go through it in
real time in front of people, and that's humbling. And
(15:14):
I don't know why I was willing to do that.
Awful lot of people are not. I think it's because
I was sober, and I knew that whatever happened after
I got sober, it was all just a gift, because really,
if there were justice and fairness, I should have been dead.
So this was all kind of bonus. I'm still I'm
(15:37):
living in this bonus time. I got these bonus rounds,
and so that kind of round freed me to do
crazy things like get on stage when I knew that
I was not good at it.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
So you went into this new culture, build yourself up,
got some fans around you, got people to really raise
an eyebrow that you had something to say, but that
you were kind of ballsy enough to do it, frankly right.
And the book is called Saved by a Song, So
you know, you don't have to read the book to
(16:11):
make the assumption that you were saved by music and
that transition and that moment that you just talked about.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I honestly believe that to be true.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
And how how how has it saved others? And I
think is a big question. I want to get into
that a little, Mary, because you know I was just
when I said I was stopping my track, I was
thinking about you and Saint Vincent's thinking about that. Really,
you know, when you went to search for where you were,
(16:43):
where your birth, where you're a biological mom had dropped
you off at Saint Vincent's. And then the time that
you know you were struck by when HIV took its
to and and you really were kind of speaking for
(17:03):
that community that was really really not only ostracized but
lost and like not having a lot. There wasn't people
wrapping their arms around them. There weren't people wrapping around
their arms around them. And then talking about alcoholism itself
in an addiction, not to mention what of course, through
home base, we'll talk about the veteran experience. So I'm
(17:26):
throwing a lot of these in. You know, these are
chapters in your book, but there are chapters in your life,
in your life, yeah, and they're part of you.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
So I'm kind of wondering when you sort of sit
back and you think about this, what's the thread here?
What's the commonality between all of this?
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I think it doesn't make sense while you're in it,
and then you start to make sense of it. It's
in retrospect. Here's what I think. I think I grabbed
on to music and songs because my soul somehow intrinsically
new that I had to express things that I couldn't
express any other way, and those things had a lot
(18:09):
to do with my addiction. What caused me to be
an attic at age thirteen? How does that happen? How
what happens? How does a person end up that way?
And the answer is is because they're in pain and
they're playing doctor. They're medicating their own pain. Okay, why
was I in pain? And I had to start tracing
(18:30):
it back, and for me, all roads led to Saint Vincent's.
The day I was born, my mother gave me up
for adoption, and I spent a year at Saint Vincent's
before I was adopted, and in that time, my first
year on Earth, I didn't have parents and I was
(18:52):
not held enough. I was probably not fed enough, and
I ended up catatonic. And I didn't know any of
this until my almost late forties. Nobody told me that
I was catatonic when I was adopted. They didn't just sick, well, sorry,
go ahead and marriage. I didn't think it was something
I should be told, so I had to trace all
(19:15):
this myself, and using music and song as my springboard,
like I'm going to write songs about it, gave me
the courage to do it.
Speaker 5 (19:24):
Your mom said that it took a couple of weeks,
but she reversed that. You say catatonia, So you weren't
looking left right, weren't You weren't interacting with people at
eleven months old, which is obviously a tough thing. A
tough pill to swallow to someone to tell you that
that was you. But look what your mom. Look at
(19:44):
the gift that she gave you.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Absolutely that is probably, you know, the story for so
many adoptive and children that you need to attach to someone,
and without attachment, you you shrivel and and and die
as you would to live as a baby. Uh And
(20:08):
uh uh you know, the the gift of adoption uh
is one that uh uh Uh that that that I
don't take lightly and I'm always going to be grateful
for that. That said, trauma of that first year uh
and the attachment disorder it left me with uh were
(20:31):
something I had to contend with and those were mine
uh And I had to as an adult start making
sense of it right uh. And this is where music
and song came in so handy, because that's where I
was driven to write about that kind of real stuff. Uh.
And as as I worked my way through it, I
(20:55):
started getting better, and uh the hole in my soul
started closing. And at some point I was asked to
work with Darden and songwriting with Soldiers, and I had
already had a deep understanding of how transformative music and
song could be around trauma. Right from my personal story right.
Speaker 5 (21:14):
The theme really, so trauma is really kind of a
universal problem for kids, for adults, for civilians, for veterans,
and unleashing that opening that up is painful, but yet
what joy you can bring to somebody that goes through
(21:35):
that process. And actually, because you talk a lot about
how it's a translation, it's a way to talk about
things that you can't express.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Any other way. Yeah, yeah, I look at it as alchemy.
It's magic. You take some of the darkest days of
your life and write about it in a song and
you make something beautiful out of it. I mean, that's alchemy.
And here's the You're not going to outrun it. You
can't outrun it. It's with you. It's in you, it's
(22:05):
in your body, it's in your brain, it's in your soul,
it's in your emotional makeup. You're not going to outrun it.
And so for me, the answer was to stop running
and start slowly walking towards it and trying to alchemize
it with music and song. I didn't know that's what
I was doing. Of course, this is all in retrospect,
but when I start to discuss what I've been able
(22:27):
to do, with the veterans. What we've been able to
do with the veterans. The way I look at it
is we're giving agency. You go from being the story
to being the story teller. The storyteller has agency. The
storyteller is able to make choices and to decide how
the story ends.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Yeah, I mean you mentioned Darden Smith and Mary Judges
who started songwriting the Soldiers in twenty twelve. So now
we're looking at this is ten years ago, and that's
I met you know, I met Darden probably in twenty sixteen,
and like you and many, I was blown away by
the concept. It sounded like you had the resume in
a sense, because you've been there, done that, You've you've
(23:07):
been able to translate trauma. Now I'm going to read
your Rifles and Rosary Beads song if I may. Mirrors
frightened me. I don't recognize what I see. A stranger
with blood on his hands. Brother, I'm not that man.
Rifles and rosary beats, you hold tight, You hold on tight,
(23:30):
you hold on to what you need. Vic it in
morphine dreams, Rifles and rosary beats, there's a lot in
that mm hmm. In that one Stanza you wrote that
with Joe Costello veteran, right, you remember sitting down?
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I do. Yeah. Joe was withdrawn, gaunt. He wasn't interacting
with the group very much. He looked down a lot.
He clearly was in pain. And you know, he had
written a poem called Rifles and Rosary Beads, and we
talked about it, and the imagery was so powerful, the visual, uh,
(24:14):
you know, the idea of what are you holding on to?
Over there in Fallujah? You know, some guys are holding
their rifles, some guys are holding rosary beads, And so
I asked him, what were you holding on too? And
he got tears in his eyes and he said vicotin.
I said, well, I understand that we're we're on the
(24:36):
same page. There. I understand using medication, uh illegally to
to to self medicate pain and fear and grief and
sorrow and separation and loneliness. We understood each other.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Did that change the dynamic?
Speaker 1 (24:56):
It did? We built trust right then and there, right
and then he told me he didn't look in the
mirror anymore. And that's how that ended up in the song.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Now, talking about the mirror, it reminds me of the mask.
It reminds me of So we do some therapy at
home base where it's mass therapy. That's stuff they do
at well to read where you paint the inside and
you paint the outside, and the veteran can express how
they view themselves inside and how others view them outside.
And it really made me think of that when you
(25:29):
when you said the following, you know, you said, songs
are what this is what songs do best. They show
our insides on the outside.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
Humans are all in the same boat. This new vulnerability
is being witnessed and what it does, it connects that
sense of self and also to each other, so that
outside and inside. I was, you know, listening to you
talk about that. I'm hearing the songs on the album.
(26:02):
I'm thinking about the lyrics. But to hear you describe
what they do, I think pulls it all together and
tell me about how it was when they when you
perform that song for his comrades, for his family.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Right, that's part of the Songwrity. Missildio's program is we
co write with the veteran and then we play the
song in front of the group in the early evening.
And when I started to play the song I'd written
with Joe. He was absolutely terrified because he was fixing
to be seen in a way he hadn't been seen before.
(26:39):
He was shaken. About halfway in there, he was crying.
It was all I could do not to cry. We
almost always cry. It's part of it, you know. I'm
not a therapist. I can cry if I want to,
and I cry because it's so moving and because I
know that what's about to happen is he's going to
be embraced. The deepest fear is that he's going to
(27:00):
be rejected. Of course, that's why he's scared. They're all scared.
They're scared of being rejected. But the opposite happens. They
they are embraced, and empathy occurs. Everyone in the room empathizes,
and in that moment they're no longer alone. Someone sees
them on the inside and says the magic words, me too, brother,
(27:21):
me too. You know he got you know, people putting
their arms around him, patting him on the back, saying
thank you, thank you, thank you. I know, I know
that feeling. I know I know what you're talking about.
I feel that way. It takes someone from the edge
and brings them back into the middle. It's huge mirrors.
(27:45):
Me don't recognis what else? See the stranger with blue
on his hands, Brother, I'm no that man. Raffles and
(28:06):
rolls bes. You hold on to ju need acan mo.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Fien treat raffles and roll bes refels and rules, beats
you hold on to.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
You need.
Speaker 5 (28:42):
You continue to do that. Mm hmmm, yeah, you continue
to do the retreats. You mentioned also that that great
song with Beth Nielson Chapman where you sat around with
was it mostly wives?
Speaker 1 (28:58):
We sat around with w yes by spouses EOD wives
talking about what it's like to be married to a
bomb expert And.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
Oh, I didn't know that they were all EOD.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
It's so kind of a specific world within a world.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, the high risk. It's a very high risk job
in all branches of the military explosive ordinance disposal. And
being married to bomb expert whose job every day is
to dismantle bombs built to kill them, that's just a
crazy marriage to me. That's just that's the most intensity
I've ever heard. It sounds like it sounds like a
(29:35):
pressure cooker every single day. And they're young people, and
they have kids and oh my goodness, and their husbands
come home different. They come home eventually, and they come
home different. And so that led to this notion that
there's a war after the war and we don't really
(29:57):
talk about it. And so that's the type the song.
I think you're referencing the war, the war.
Speaker 5 (30:03):
The war after the war is something that everyone in
that room could identify with, right because the struggles of
transition back and how you reintegrate back to your life
and back to your kids and your wife or your
husband or your spouse and your work. How is that
taking back to some of your other travels. I mean,
you've traveled in so many countries marry and played in
(30:26):
every state and you connect with people, they connect with you,
they come to your shows. They also talk with you
and you talk with them and you listen, tell me
about some of the stuff with rifles and rosary beads,
specifically that veteran military spouse community. What comes to mind
when you think about playing those live and talking with
(30:48):
the military families during those gigs.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, I mean I was in Texas last week. We
played outside of Wimberley, a little festival at a Texas
roadhouse on air condition ninety eight degrees, full on Texas
kind of thing, And after we played, women came up
to the table in tears and wanted to hug me
and she said, the war, after the war, that's me.
(31:11):
I get those almost every single night when I play
the songs from Rifles and Rosarypies. There's people in the
audience who have lived it. And what happens I think
is cathartic. On the surface, if you're standing there watching it,
it looks like there's sorrow, like it looks sad, But
I think it's catharsis. I think it helps people to
(31:34):
not feel alone, to help people to know that they're
going through something a lot of other people are going
through and they're not singled out. It's not unique to them,
and they're not alone. They may feel alone and they
may not even have anybody to talk to, but they're
not alone. And all they got to do is start
talking about this stuff and they'll find their community of
(31:57):
other people. It's the secrecy, secrecy in silence that kills us.
So I think of it as a catharsis and aha,
and like, well, maybe I can talk about this. I
think there's hope in it. But if you were to
look at it and not know all that. It looks
like an interaction of sadness, but it's not. It's transformative.
Speaker 5 (32:20):
That transformation can save lives. It sounds kind of a
you know, it sounds out there, of course, to say
that a song saves a life. Okay here, I'm actually
sitting in the intensive care unit right now. Is a
song going to save a life today? No, but it's
going to save and restore and bring hope and change
(32:41):
lives and save lives over time. What you've been able
to do with this collection, with your albums and with
your fans is really I was getting at before, not
only the veteran community, right, this all began years ago.
So that's a powerful thing. It is to save other lives.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
It is, and I think it's connected to purpose. And
I honestly have a theory that the ancients knew this.
I think with the advent of the music business and
the monetization of music as a product, we've collectively forgotten
what music is for. I think the gods gave us
music so we don't have to be alone. That's what
(33:25):
harmony is is in harmony together. And I think that
the ancient people's and not that long ago, knew that
we sing together to bring people home. And what are
soldiers struggling with? The inability to come all the way home?
They get here physically, but emotionally and spiritually, they can't
find their way home. And this is something that music
(33:47):
can expedite. And I've seen it in real time. And
I don't know, you know, listeners may not know this,
but we've lost more of our military to suicide than
we did in the twenty odd years that they were
fighting in Afghanistan and in Iraq. And if we have
something that can help them come home and find peace,
(34:08):
I think we should all be engaging in that and
using that as a tool to help them come home.
They served us, We got to serve them. That's how
I see it.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
You know.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
I was in Austin, like I said, outside of Wimberley,
and we stayed in Austin last week and there's a
statue of a homeless veteran on the walk by the
river and soldiers have put their dog tags on it.
So much homelessness and suffering and suicide and pain in
the community that was of service.
Speaker 5 (34:41):
Tell me, Mary, there's a lot of service going on
in your years of songwriting and connecting with people indirectly. Indirectly,
you have been saving people along the way and really
giving them an opportunity to change or to heal, not
just with this innovative, collaborative approach where you write with people,
(35:02):
but obviously your your story that resonates.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
That's why I talk about it once. I talk about
adoption as traumas. I talk about recovery from from alcohol
and drug addiction and the possibilities that opens for people.
After you get sobered, you can live the life that
you were put here to live. You don't have to
suffer from an unlived life, your whole life.
Speaker 5 (35:25):
Yeah, back to that strange fire moment. Yeah, you're from
a military family. Yeah, and I don't think a lot
of people know that.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeah, my dad served in Korea, and in the last
days of his life, when when his brain was not
functioning properly at all anymore, he kept thinking he was
testifying in some kind of military tribunal. He never talked
about being in Korea. He was in intelligence and he
(35:55):
just kept his in his you know, assisted living, saying
I need I need a yellow pad and a paper,
and you give it to him and he'd sir, No, sir,
I cannot speak to that, sir like he was. He
was a soldier. Again. It brought pears to my eyes.
He never talked about it. The only thing I knew
about my father's military service was that he wouldn't allow
(36:16):
guns in our house.
Speaker 5 (36:18):
Your mom as a spouse, when you thought when you
wrote that song with Beth, in a sense, your mom
was one of those women.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
And I didn't know it. Yeah, So much of this
is mysterious, like you're doing something that has connections that
are real and you don't see him until after. It's
so mysterious.
Speaker 5 (36:41):
Your dad, I mean, there's a I encourage please people
read this amazing book. You talk about alcoholism and you
talk about your dad, and this is a whole conversation
in and of itself. But to what extent do you
if you look back, I mean, is there a connection
there to his service? And I think so some of
his own medication, I think so.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I think he experienced some kind of trauma, Yeah, and
it damaged him. I do I believe that.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
Yeah, because Mary, I mean you mentioned something. I think
this was earlier in the book. You talk about the
Vietnam War and you talk about your cousin Philip.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, Philip died young in Vietnam.
Speaker 5 (37:22):
He was twenty three Army KIA. You talk about the
Vietnam War and I remember, you know, I'm a little
younger than you, but I remember Walter Cronkite, and he
spanned a couple, you know, several decades, and I can
hear that as well. And then you talk about your parents' war,
and then you talk about your own war with your dad. Yeah,
(37:43):
which is heavy stuff obviously, but that time in your life,
even though it was so hard and you left home early,
there was something really powerful that gave you the tools
later in life. I always think back to that. I
always wonder, you know, there's a power, There's something that
was in there that gave you the ability. It wasn't
(38:06):
just being pulled over by that cop.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
You know.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
I wish I could bottle it. I wish I could
name it, even Like, why do some people get arrested
for drunk driving and immediately when they get out of
jail start drinking again. Why do some people get sober
and some people just can't? You know? Why did some
people have this weird tenacity to go through being on
(38:31):
stage and knowing you suck, and knowing there's no way
to get better at it. You can't get better in
your living room. You got to do it in front
of people and work through the stage. Fright, Why would
I stick with it and others be unable? I don't
know what that is. I think it's constitutional. I think
(38:52):
I maybe have some just innate gifts that allowed me
to keep going and to get sober. But I also
think it's grace. I think there's some unmerited gift in
that that you don't deserve. That there's the notion of grace,
amazing grace saved a wretch like me. I mean, I
(39:14):
relate to that. I was a wretch. So it's ineffable
in so many ways. And there's no way to talk
about it without going into spiritual language, which becomes more
and more ethereal and starts to sound like some sort
of a religious pitch, and it's really not. It's quite practical,
(39:35):
and there's no theology behind it. There's just there's mystery.
Speaker 5 (39:40):
There's nothing wrong with that, I know. Yeah. I mean,
you mentioned to Amy Ray, who was gosh one of
my musical heroes. Me too. You said being terrified as
part of the agreement, Amy, you know, and I just
that hit me. I was actually what was I I
was doing the dishes the other day, you remember, or
(40:00):
what you're doing sometimes when something somebody says something so prolific. Anyway,
and then you went on to say that if going
forward is the goal, fear is going to be the emotion.
So I think that connects to what you're saying, Mary,
is that there's not without trepidation. There's fear here and
there's there's there's risks and it's not you know, I
have to say, there's there's a lot that connects to
(40:22):
service our service members. You're serving in a different way
and hats off. You know, behind you is that beautiful flag.
I'm seeing two things right now. I'm seeing a proud
military family member and a proud person that works with veterans.
And I'm seeing pride because I know Pride Month is
(40:44):
coming up. Yeah, absolutely, happy early Pride.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Thank you. Yeah, that's another thing I need to talk
about and not not not be in the shadows about it.
You know, I'm a I'm a i'm a i'm a
gay woman, and i'm i'm i'm an advocate for LGBTQ.
People and all that I think we're asking for as
respect and dignity. Uh and uh, you know, permission to
(41:12):
live our lives without being assaulted or ridiculous laws being
passed against our personhood. And you see a Ukrainian flag too,
I'm I'm definitely concerned what's going on over there in
awe of the courage of those people, uh, and the
(41:36):
absolute tenacity and commitment to their democracy. I think Americans
can learn a lot if we watch closely. What they're
doing to save their democracy is astonishing. Uh and I
fully support their effort.
Speaker 5 (41:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
So yeah, flags are powerful symbols, and yeah, you can
you can definitely make a statement with the flag.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
You know, my daughter actually is fourteen and she I
didn't know that the Pride flag was. I think it
was in the seventies that it started to be more
of a part of our culture. But things have really
changed since that time. Is over fifty years, Oh my god,
so much. So. You're right, there's been some really amazing
advancements in the openness and the understanding is probably light
(42:25):
years than it was when you started coming of age.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Oh my god. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (42:29):
But at the same time, it's not going away, and
we know that there's a lot of lack of understanding.
How does that connect to your writing? If anything.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
What's interesting to me is that when you go into
music and you start to take it seriously, and then
you take the stage and you start building a career,
you don't choose your fans, they choose you. And I figured,
you know, I probably would have a fan base that
was more or less predominantly gay lesbian, and that's just
not true. It's not my base at all. I connect
(43:02):
deeply with heterosexual men who are a lot like me.
My fan base looks more like a Guy Clark fan
base or townsman Zant fan base, or you know, Chris
Christofferson or the John Prime.
Speaker 5 (43:17):
It's those guys.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Yeah, it's those guys. Those guys. I'm kindred with them,
and my musical development was deeply influenced by them. And
the people who come to see me are people who
would go to those shows. So it really, weirdly doesn't
(43:39):
have a lot to do with music for me.
Speaker 5 (43:43):
I don't There shouldn't be an expectation that it does.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
You know, I'm the one who had it. Actually, I
thought that's what it would be, but it's not. And
I'm just grateful that I have people that come. Everybody's welcome,
you know, if you can relate to what I'm doing,
I'm so happy to have you there. Uh And and
it's really a uh, a diverse group of people that
(44:11):
that come in. Uh And I don't you know, I
don't hide who I am. But I also that's that's
not the nature of my songs. I don't. I don't
sing about being gay. I don't. I don't know how
to write songs about that. I write songs about being
a human.
Speaker 5 (44:29):
Yeah, so so beautifully said, and so and so real.
I mean, you know what's interesting is that in a sense,
you become an allies or you not an ally. You
become a conduit for all types to really, you know,
if there was ever a connection. It's really, like you said,
those guys that may normally, you know, they may listen
(44:50):
to Guy Clark and others and John Prian, but now
they're you know, part of the whole family. And it's
a great thing.
Speaker 6 (44:56):
You know.
Speaker 5 (44:57):
It's interesting. Like I don't have a question here, but
I when I was in college, it was nineteen eighty
nine and I was in Burlington, Vermont. I remember seeing
the Indigo Girls. We went, we heard about there's such
a buzz around that time, obviously, right, and here I am,
you know, straight dude, you know, eighteen years old. Mostly women.
I think there was probably like eighty percent women in
(45:19):
the audience. I'm a songwriter as well, I'm a musician.
That was transformative for me. I mean, I I I'm
scredible time.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
It was incredible time.
Speaker 5 (45:28):
I play it for my kids. You know, it's I
just the other day I was like, you know the
song secure Yourself to Heaven, Secure Yourself. I think I
was actually when I was on the one of those
walks when I was listening to your book. It probably
triggered because you know, the Indego girls you talked about.
So I put it on Spotify and I was just
sat there.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
I'm like, wow, so great.
Speaker 5 (45:47):
And there are harmonies and just so what they you
know what they did, as you said, I think to
Amy in your interview something about like blasting open the
door for other people.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
They did. They kicked there was a cultural moment. Their
music came ahead of the changes that that we were
about to go through. They blasted down the door. And
Amy shocked me when she said, but we hated ourselves
and we were in the closet. Like it didn't matter,
(46:18):
did it. It happened anyway because the music, again is
always a music and song is always ahead of the songwriter.
There's a wisdom in the art form that transcends the individuals.
And so when you know, when when like when you
reference that I've saved lives with this practice, I would
(46:41):
push back a little and say, well, I was a
midwife in the process of salvation, but music and song
saved the lives.
Speaker 5 (46:50):
Yeah, a midwife, You were the mid songwriter?
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Yes, that like that because it's not you to me.
Anybody who understands the art firm can do it, can
bear witness and help expedite that kind of experience that
pulls somebody from the edge back in.
Speaker 5 (47:10):
Well you, what did you say? Don't leave music and
songwriting up to the professionals, right? I love that?
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Well, And what I'm saying there is that if all
we focus on is monetization and bottom line and turn
it into McDonald's where everybody's having McNuggets, the experience that
I describe in the book doesn't happen because it's a
product to be sold more than more than the mystery
(47:39):
to be approached.
Speaker 5 (47:40):
With respect and more than the process.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
M h. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (47:44):
And that gets to the collaborative model, because you know
with Dardin Smith and others, we've you know, work with
You did this amazing job with us with the Frontline
songs and and and all the stuff you do with
with with veterans. It's you can write one on one
with somebody which is beautiful, like you did with Joe right,
Joe Costello and others, And there's a to me, there's
(48:07):
a certain there's a bond there that you can create
and you can well, let me ask you, what's the
difference Mary, when you are one to one with anybody,
whether they're you know, going through any type of trauma
and you versus that group and that cohesion.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
You know, the group is there to witness what happened
one on one in the workshops. So one on one
you create trust and you bear witness in non judgment,
and you take their story and turn it into their song,
and the group then is the witness and the writing
of the song is only fifty percent of the deal
(48:48):
that causes transformation. Then you have to bring it to
a group of witnesses who then bear witness and see
the inside of that person that you've written with, and
the witnesses then experience empathy and embrace that person, and
they are brought to a new place of self acceptance,
an understanding of their own humanity, that that that that
(49:13):
that they're not different than everyone else.
Speaker 5 (49:17):
I'm like you, brother, Yeah, me too, man you sister,
me too?
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Man?
Speaker 5 (49:21):
Yeah. Mary, You've been so gracious. You're on the road,
You're doing a lot of things. What's next for you?
What's what's uh? What's hot on Mary's mind? Now?
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, we're hitting the road. I got a new record
coming out June third, and so I've got tour dates
and tour dates and tour dates, and it's an exciting time.
Here we go again. Record number eleven is going eleven
to the world.
Speaker 5 (49:43):
Yes, I will not make a spinal tap reference, I promise,
but eleven beautiful. So we heard some of the music,
it's great. What do you excite? Is there a theme
to any of this album or is it sort of
purely old school a bunch of great songs.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Well, what what we've been through in the pandemic has
made its appearance there for sure. Yea, and love the
importance of love and the intensity of what we've all
been through. You know, we we've all lost a lot
of people. The numbers are staggering, and so there's grief
(50:21):
and there's loss and there's love, and so that's the
nature of it.
Speaker 5 (50:26):
And how can how can how can we all really
identify as an understatement and how can we heal with
some of that? As you're you know, you're the spiritual leader, Mary,
You're you're sort of helping us get through that every day.
So we can't wait to hear the all the whole album.
Thank you, Mary, Thank you so much for your time
and for all you do and for your you know
(50:47):
you're serving those who served and many others.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
So thank you, Thank you, Ron, thank you, Lucy. Appreciate
y'all doing this. Take care of y'all.
Speaker 6 (50:55):
It's dug enough to see dogging enough to sease s.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
That ig love, to see the.
Speaker 6 (51:09):
Light in an ocean black, indeed.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
In the middle of the night.
Speaker 4 (51:24):
As a hold on till you're love, like those lights
from up a block.
Speaker 6 (51:36):
I've drifted out, so fall it's talking enought to see
the sun. I've been carried out, so fall it's talking
enough to see.
Speaker 5 (51:56):
Sum Thank you to our guest Mary Gachet, for your talents,
your support and service over the years. For so many
Mary's books, Saved by a Song is one you should
really read or listen to on Audible. I listened to
Mary's book and was entrance with not only the storyteller
coming from her own voice, but the fact that each
(52:19):
chapter is punctuated by a unique song. These songs are
really chapters of her life with a common thread of
resilience and recovery. And of course check out the new
album dark Enough to See the Stars, which is available
right now. Speaking of songwriting with Soldiers, if you've not
listened already, we have an episode called Warrior Healer that
was released February seventeenth, twenty twenty, that highlights a song
(52:41):
co written by one of our veteran alumni at Homebase
Air Force veteran Blair Morin and James House. So lastly,
I have two podcasts to recommend with Mary Gachet we
met in twenty eighteen on a podcast I was co
hosting called Above the Basement. If you're interested in a
show that covers the lives and stories of musicians, check
out the show, produced and hosted by my Friend Chuck Clow,
(53:03):
which has over two hundred episodes in the vault. The
episode we refer to in today's conversation is number eighty
one in February twenty eighteen. Also be sure to check
out Mary's conversation on the November twenty twenty one episode
of Rick Rubin and Malcolm Gladwell's podcast Broken Record. Home
Based Nation is the official podcast for the Home Based
(53:24):
Program for veterans and military families. Follow Home Based on
social media. At Home Based Program, please listen and follow
us on Apple, iHeart, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This episode was produced, edited and engineered by Lucy Little.
I'm Ron Hirschberg. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see
you next time.
Music Saved Me.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hey there, amln Hoffman, host of the Music Saved Me podcast,
and from time to time we like to recommend and
share other podcasts we love with you. We really love
the great work of all the wonderful people at Home
Based Nation in Boston and all the great work they
do to support our heroes, the veterans and their families,
and we invite you to check out this episode of
(00:23):
Home Based Nation featuring a past guest that we had
on this podcast, the great singer songwriter Force of Nature
Mary Goshet.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Revels and rules would be.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Behold to.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Juney Wecord moreing Jeans revels Rules, it would be.
Speaker 5 (01:01):
The song you're listening to is called Rifles and Rosary
Beats on the album with the same title that was
Grammy nominated for Best Folk Album in twenty eighteen. It
was written by two people, Mary Gosche and Iraq veteran
Joe Costello. Mary was introduced to co writing with veterans
through the organization's Songwriting with Soldiers. She says this type
(01:23):
of work is all about agency, creating a place for
the service member to transition from being the story to
becoming the storyteller, and she writes in her recent book,
Saved by a Song, this is what songs do best.
They show our insides on the outside. On Home Based
Nation Today, a conversation with songwriter, author, and military family
(01:47):
member Mary Gosche. I'm your host, Ron Hershberg, Thanks for
tuning in. A New Orleans native, Mary had a revelation
in July nineteen ninety while listening on her car radio
to the song Strange Fire by the Indigo Girls. The
song ended, she clenched the steering wheel and cried, and
(02:09):
she tells me I was in pain, a pain of
living in unlived life. She may have been showing success
on paper at the time, a head chef and owner
of the thriving restaurant Dixie Kitchen in Boston, but her
life was spiraling downward with addiction, alcohol, failed relationships mixed
with sadness.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Yeah, I remember banging my hands against the steering wheel
and crying. I was miserable. I was successful, but I
didn't I wasn't sober, and I wasn't happy.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
A few months later, she was pulled over for drunk
driving and things started to change for the better, and
she has remained sober since for thirty two years. Through songs,
she discovered that she could express things that she was
not able to express in other ways. She gained confidence
in writing and performing.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, I look at it as it's magic. You take
some of the darkest days of your life and write
about it in a song, and you make something beautiful
out of it. I mean, that's alchemy. And here's the catch.
You're not going to outrun it. You can't outrun it.
It's with you. It's in you, it's in your body,
(03:19):
it's in your brain, it's in your soul, it's in
your emotional makeup. You're not going to outrun it. And
so for me, the answer was to stop running and
start slowly walking towards it and trying to alchemize it
with music and song. I didn't know that's what I
was doing. Of course, this is all in retrospect.
Speaker 5 (03:35):
She wrote about early childhood trauma and both the pain
and blessings of being adopted at eleven months of age.
She wrote about family alcoholism, and her three wars growing
up Vietnam, her parents war with each other, and the
war between she and her father. Mary's dad served in
the Korean War, and her cousin was killed in Vietnam
(03:58):
at the age of twenty three. So the military family
service runs deep and Mary and these days, she continues
to serve others through her songs. For veterans, they can
heal personal wounds and offer something simple but essential, being seen.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
When I start to discuss what I've been able to
do with the veterans, what we've been able to do
with the veterans, the way I look at it is
we're giving agency. You go from being the story to
being the story teller. The storyteller has agency. The storyteller
is able to make choices and to decide how the
(04:35):
story ends.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
When Mary talks about her sessions with songwriting with soldiers,
you can almost hear the phrase in the room, me too, brother,
me too, when she describes service members sharing each other's songs.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
They're all scared. They're scared of being rejected, but the
opposite happens. They are embraced and empathy occurs. Everyone in
the room empathizes, and in that moment they're no longer alone.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
Along with songwriter Beth Nielson Chapman, she wrote with a
group of spouses of EOD or Explosive Ordinance disposal officers
called the War after the War about the challenge of
family reintegration. It's opening line, who's going to care for
the ones who care for the ones who went to war?
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Being married to bomb expert whose job every day is
to dismantle bombs built to kill them, that's just a
crazy marriage to me. That's just that's the most intensity
I've ever heard. It sounds like a pressure cooker every
single day. And they're young people and they have kids,
and their husbands come home different. They come home eventually,
and they come home different. And so that led to
(05:42):
this notion that there's a war after the war and
we don't really talk about it.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
This song, incidentally, was named Song of the Year in
twenty eighteen on NPR by the New Yorkers Malcolm Gladwell.
And just the other day, Mary released her brand new
and eleventh album, Dark Enough to See the Stars, and
we are honored to share a little preview with you,
so stick around for that. Mary joined us from her
Nashville home and on our wall hung two flags, one
(06:11):
for Ukraine and the other a large rainbow American flag,
highlighted by sparkling lights, creating a glow in an interview
in twenty nineteen with the Love to All Project, Mary said,
I am the first openly queer person to play the
Grand Old Opry. I work in a musical genre where
most often I am the only gay person. I don't
(06:32):
let that stop me. I am so much more than
just queer in my work. I focus on what connects
people and it works out well. It's Pride Month, and
this word pride has powerful meaning when having the privilege
of sitting with Mary Gachet. Mary shares with us the
pride of being a supporter of our veterans and military
families and the pride of being a savior of so
(06:54):
many with her songs. Thanks so much for joining us momb.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Down School homes kids in the street.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Long Mary go'she Hello, good to see you.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
Great to see you. I am so happy to have
you on the zoom as they say together, gosh. We
met a few years ago at City Winery in the
back room, the green room, and we met with Mary Judd,
and there was a veteran that you that you had
co written with or was on the songwriting with Soldiers team,
(07:35):
and that was a great moment. I'll get to it
in a little bit. But to sort of see where
you were in your career at that moment, and then
learning more about you and now listening to your book
this past couple of weeks, Wow, the journey was It
just started for me when I got to know you
(07:55):
like three years ago, four years ago. But knowing what
you've pomplished before that time, to me is just it's great.
It's great to talk with you now.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
It's been a it's been a journey, you know, it's
been a journey. I really do believe that music and
song has been integral in my in my recovery, and
in my transformation from a human disaster area and a
functional being.
Speaker 5 (08:27):
Into a functional being. Not only quite functional, but you
know someone who not only wrote this great book saved
by a song, and then went into the studio and
read it and spoke spoken word. So one of the
things you started off in the book, I think it
was near the beginning you said you like to go
for walks, and that's when you kind of breathe think
(08:50):
about ideas.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, yeah, I did that for a decade and it's
actually pivoted now. I swim, okay, I swim a mile
a day, but it's the same process. I'm in another zone.
Ideas come or I sort out stuff without consciously trying
to while I'm just counting my strokes.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
In that sort of state of flow. You know. I
mentioned that, Mary, because I've been going on walks, uh,
and I've been actually doing some running, trying to get
back in shape, and I was I walked and ran
to your book over seven hours in the last couple
of weeks.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Oh wow, so we're we're we're acquainted now.
Speaker 5 (09:35):
Yeah, so you've been hanging out. You didn't know it, Mary,
but you've been hanging out with me for a while,
and we've been like, you know, going down the block,
We've gone around the track. I've had some moments where
I've stopped in my tracks and need to pull over.
And I know that's kind of what you One of
the one of the big parts of your journey was, uh,
(09:58):
was pulling over that pulling over when you heard that
Indigo Girls song Strange Fire.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, there was some message in the bottle for me,
but I didn't know what it was. I didn't know
what it was for quite a while, and it took
it took quite a while to make sense of that feeling.
It was more than just a song. It was there
was so much in that sound and I had no
(10:24):
idea what it was trying to tell me, but it was.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
And you look back on that and I think you
told Amy Ray, who interviewed you, you had the pain
of an unlived life. Can you that's right? Can we
dive into that?
Speaker 1 (10:36):
We can? It's hard to you know, we are really
complex beings and there's so much about that that's hard
to express in language. But I think that drugs and
alcohol blocked me from what I would have done otherwise.
(10:59):
Of course I didn't know that's what was going on.
So I ended up doing what I could, and I did,
you know, pretty well. I found investors. I was able
to be part owner of a couple of restaurants in Boston.
The first one was a little placed on the bottom
of Beacon Hill called Lunch Break across from Mesh General
and we did that successfully for years. And then opened
(11:23):
up Dixie, the Dixie Kitchen, which we did for over
a decade, the Louisiana style food in Boston. And I
had a little clamshack on the beach in Dorchester by
the Salvon Hill Yacht Club Salvn Hill, and I was
able to do that kind of work. But what my
soul was interested in was music and song. And I
(11:49):
hadn't even tried because I didn't think I could. And
when I heard the sound of the Indigo Girl voices,
that just opened a like a I called it a trapdoor,
and I just fell through it. And it was like,
(12:10):
oh my god, what is this feeling? It feels horrible.
I love the song, I loved the sound, but the
feeling felt horrible.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
That's when you pulled over.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, I remember banging my hands against the steering wheel
and crying. I was miserable. I was successful, but I
didn't I wasn't sober, and I wasn't happy, and I
was going down the wrong road fast, like metaphorically, I
was sinking in addictions. And you know, not too long
(12:43):
after that, I got arrested for drunk driving. And that
was the best thing that ever happened to me, because
I got sober. That was July nineteen ninety And.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
You're I think you're thirty two years Can I do
the math?
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Thirty two years clean and sober?
Speaker 5 (12:55):
Yeah, congratulations, my friend.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
And so my early recovery was about trying to make
sense of that feeling about wondering and asking what am
I supposed to be doing? What would I do if
I could do anything? And the answer slowly started to
become you'd be a songwriter.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
It took getting pulled over by a cop and arrested
for drunk driving. But then again, it sounds like when
you were sober was really when the magic happened.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Right right after I got sober, I started to develop
emotionally and spiritually. And you know, anybody addicted to drugs
and alcohol is not developing in any way completely stuck
as a human being in many ways developmentally, I was
(13:50):
fourteen when I got sober at twenty seven.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
You were fourteen when you got sober at twenty seven.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Emotionally, spiritually, yeah, so.
Speaker 5 (14:00):
And when you look at that time, was it the
opportunity to get into music and explore You talk a
lot about your book, how you know, getting getting on
that stage, whether it's club passim or another writer's round
where it's terrifying. But was it the anticipation of the
(14:22):
music that that drove you or was were you actually
feeling that you could write songs and perform and thus
that gave you more drive? It was a chicken of
the egg.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I had no idea what I was doing. I just
knew that that it was compelling to me to do
it and to get better at it. And I was
like everyone in the very beginning, I wasn't good at it,
so I had to learn how to do it. I
remember for quite some time, maybe years, on stage, just praying,
please help me to be as good at this as
(14:54):
I am at making gumbo and jambalaya. You know, it's
just that's all I'm asking Lord, Just get me there.
As you know, as I learned to be in the kitchen,
I knew I could learn to be on stage, but
I had to. I had to go through it in
real time in front of people, and that's humbling. And
(15:14):
I don't know why I was willing to do that.
Awful lot of people are not. I think it's because
I was sober, and I knew that whatever happened after
I got sober, it was all just a gift, because really,
if there were justice and fairness, I should have been dead.
So this was all kind of bonus. I'm still I'm
(15:37):
living in this bonus time. I got these bonus rounds,
and so that kind of round freed me to do
crazy things like get on stage when I knew that
I was not good at it.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
So you went into this new culture, build yourself up,
got some fans around you, got people to really raise
an eyebrow that you had something to say, but that
you were kind of ballsy enough to do it, frankly right.
And the book is called Saved by a Song, So
you know, you don't have to read the book to
(16:11):
make the assumption that you were saved by music and
that transition and that moment that you just talked about.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I honestly believe that to be true.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
And how how how has it saved others? And I
think is a big question. I want to get into
that a little, Mary, because you know I was just
when I said I was stopping my track, I was
thinking about you and Saint Vincent's thinking about that. Really,
you know, when you went to search for where you were,
(16:43):
where your birth, where you're a biological mom had dropped
you off at Saint Vincent's. And then the time that
you know you were struck by when HIV took its
to and and you really were kind of speaking for
(17:03):
that community that was really really not only ostracized but
lost and like not having a lot. There wasn't people
wrapping their arms around them. There weren't people wrapping around
their arms around them. And then talking about alcoholism itself
in an addiction, not to mention what of course, through
home base, we'll talk about the veteran experience. So I'm
(17:26):
throwing a lot of these in. You know, these are
chapters in your book, but there are chapters in your life,
in your life, yeah, and they're part of you.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
So I'm kind of wondering when you sort of sit
back and you think about this, what's the thread here?
What's the commonality between all of this?
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I think it doesn't make sense while you're in it,
and then you start to make sense of it. It's
in retrospect. Here's what I think. I think I grabbed
on to music and songs because my soul somehow intrinsically
new that I had to express things that I couldn't
express any other way, and those things had a lot
(18:09):
to do with my addiction. What caused me to be
an attic at age thirteen? How does that happen? How
what happens? How does a person end up that way?
And the answer is is because they're in pain and
they're playing doctor. They're medicating their own pain. Okay, why
was I in pain? And I had to start tracing
(18:30):
it back, and for me, all roads led to Saint Vincent's.
The day I was born, my mother gave me up
for adoption, and I spent a year at Saint Vincent's
before I was adopted, and in that time, my first
year on Earth, I didn't have parents and I was
(18:52):
not held enough. I was probably not fed enough, and
I ended up catatonic. And I didn't know any of
this until my almost late forties. Nobody told me that
I was catatonic when I was adopted. They didn't just sick, well, sorry,
go ahead and marriage. I didn't think it was something
I should be told, so I had to trace all
(19:15):
this myself, and using music and song as my springboard,
like I'm going to write songs about it, gave me
the courage to do it.
Speaker 5 (19:24):
Your mom said that it took a couple of weeks,
but she reversed that. You say catatonia, So you weren't
looking left right, weren't You weren't interacting with people at
eleven months old, which is obviously a tough thing. A
tough pill to swallow to someone to tell you that
that was you. But look what your mom. Look at
(19:44):
the gift that she gave you.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Absolutely that is probably, you know, the story for so
many adoptive and children that you need to attach to someone,
and without attachment, you you shrivel and and and die
as you would to live as a baby. Uh And
(20:08):
uh uh you know, the the gift of adoption uh
is one that uh uh Uh that that that I
don't take lightly and I'm always going to be grateful
for that. That said, trauma of that first year uh
and the attachment disorder it left me with uh were
(20:31):
something I had to contend with and those were mine
uh And I had to as an adult start making
sense of it right uh. And this is where music
and song came in so handy, because that's where I
was driven to write about that kind of real stuff. Uh.
And as as I worked my way through it, I
(20:55):
started getting better, and uh the hole in my soul
started closing. And at some point I was asked to
work with Darden and songwriting with Soldiers, and I had
already had a deep understanding of how transformative music and
song could be around trauma. Right from my personal story right.
Speaker 5 (21:14):
The theme really, so trauma is really kind of a
universal problem for kids, for adults, for civilians, for veterans,
and unleashing that opening that up is painful, but yet
what joy you can bring to somebody that goes through
(21:35):
that process. And actually, because you talk a lot about
how it's a translation, it's a way to talk about
things that you can't express.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Any other way. Yeah, yeah, I look at it as alchemy.
It's magic. You take some of the darkest days of
your life and write about it in a song and
you make something beautiful out of it. I mean, that's alchemy.
And here's the You're not going to outrun it. You
can't outrun it. It's with you. It's in you, it's
(22:05):
in your body, it's in your brain, it's in your soul,
it's in your emotional makeup. You're not going to outrun it.
And so for me, the answer was to stop running
and start slowly walking towards it and trying to alchemize
it with music and song. I didn't know that's what
I was doing. Of course, this is all in retrospect,
but when I start to discuss what I've been able
(22:27):
to do, with the veterans. What we've been able to
do with the veterans. The way I look at it
is we're giving agency. You go from being the story
to being the story teller. The storyteller has agency. The
storyteller is able to make choices and to decide how
the story ends.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Yeah, I mean you mentioned Darden Smith and Mary Judges
who started songwriting the Soldiers in twenty twelve. So now
we're looking at this is ten years ago, and that's
I met you know, I met Darden probably in twenty sixteen,
and like you and many, I was blown away by
the concept. It sounded like you had the resume in
a sense, because you've been there, done that, You've you've
(23:07):
been able to translate trauma. Now I'm going to read
your Rifles and Rosary Beads song if I may. Mirrors
frightened me. I don't recognize what I see. A stranger
with blood on his hands. Brother, I'm not that man.
Rifles and rosary beats, you hold tight, You hold on tight,
(23:30):
you hold on to what you need. Vic it in
morphine dreams, Rifles and rosary beats, there's a lot in
that mm hmm. In that one Stanza you wrote that
with Joe Costello veteran, right, you remember sitting down?
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I do. Yeah. Joe was withdrawn, gaunt. He wasn't interacting
with the group very much. He looked down a lot.
He clearly was in pain. And you know, he had
written a poem called Rifles and Rosary Beads, and we
talked about it, and the imagery was so powerful, the visual, uh,
(24:14):
you know, the idea of what are you holding on to?
Over there in Fallujah? You know, some guys are holding
their rifles, some guys are holding rosary beads, And so
I asked him, what were you holding on too? And
he got tears in his eyes and he said vicotin.
I said, well, I understand that we're we're on the
(24:36):
same page. There. I understand using medication, uh illegally to
to to self medicate pain and fear and grief and
sorrow and separation and loneliness. We understood each other.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Did that change the dynamic?
Speaker 1 (24:56):
It did? We built trust right then and there, right
and then he told me he didn't look in the
mirror anymore. And that's how that ended up in the song.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Now, talking about the mirror, it reminds me of the mask.
It reminds me of So we do some therapy at
home base where it's mass therapy. That's stuff they do
at well to read where you paint the inside and
you paint the outside, and the veteran can express how
they view themselves inside and how others view them outside.
And it really made me think of that when you
(25:29):
when you said the following, you know, you said, songs
are what this is what songs do best. They show
our insides on the outside.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
Humans are all in the same boat. This new vulnerability
is being witnessed and what it does, it connects that
sense of self and also to each other, so that
outside and inside. I was, you know, listening to you
talk about that. I'm hearing the songs on the album.
(26:02):
I'm thinking about the lyrics. But to hear you describe
what they do, I think pulls it all together and
tell me about how it was when they when you
perform that song for his comrades, for his family.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Right, that's part of the Songwrity. Missildio's program is we
co write with the veteran and then we play the
song in front of the group in the early evening.
And when I started to play the song I'd written
with Joe. He was absolutely terrified because he was fixing
to be seen in a way he hadn't been seen before.
(26:39):
He was shaken. About halfway in there, he was crying.
It was all I could do not to cry. We
almost always cry. It's part of it, you know. I'm
not a therapist. I can cry if I want to,
and I cry because it's so moving and because I
know that what's about to happen is he's going to
be embraced. The deepest fear is that he's going to
(27:00):
be rejected. Of course, that's why he's scared. They're all scared.
They're scared of being rejected. But the opposite happens. They
they are embraced, and empathy occurs. Everyone in the room empathizes,
and in that moment they're no longer alone. Someone sees
them on the inside and says the magic words, me too, brother,
(27:21):
me too. You know he got you know, people putting
their arms around him, patting him on the back, saying
thank you, thank you, thank you. I know, I know
that feeling. I know I know what you're talking about.
I feel that way. It takes someone from the edge
and brings them back into the middle. It's huge mirrors.
(27:45):
Me don't recognis what else? See the stranger with blue
on his hands, Brother, I'm no that man. Raffles and
(28:06):
rolls bes. You hold on to ju need acan mo.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Fien treat raffles and roll bes refels and rules, beats
you hold on to.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
You need.
Speaker 5 (28:42):
You continue to do that. Mm hmmm, yeah, you continue
to do the retreats. You mentioned also that that great
song with Beth Nielson Chapman where you sat around with
was it mostly wives?
Speaker 1 (28:58):
We sat around with w yes by spouses EOD wives
talking about what it's like to be married to a
bomb expert And.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
Oh, I didn't know that they were all EOD.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
It's so kind of a specific world within a world.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, the high risk. It's a very high risk job
in all branches of the military explosive ordinance disposal. And
being married to bomb expert whose job every day is
to dismantle bombs built to kill them, that's just a
crazy marriage to me. That's just that's the most intensity
I've ever heard. It sounds like it sounds like a
(29:35):
pressure cooker every single day. And they're young people, and
they have kids and oh my goodness, and their husbands
come home different. They come home eventually, and they come
home different. And so that led to this notion that
there's a war after the war and we don't really
(29:57):
talk about it. And so that's the type the song.
I think you're referencing the war, the war.
Speaker 5 (30:03):
The war after the war is something that everyone in
that room could identify with, right because the struggles of
transition back and how you reintegrate back to your life
and back to your kids and your wife or your
husband or your spouse and your work. How is that
taking back to some of your other travels. I mean,
you've traveled in so many countries marry and played in
(30:26):
every state and you connect with people, they connect with you,
they come to your shows. They also talk with you
and you talk with them and you listen, tell me
about some of the stuff with rifles and rosary beads,
specifically that veteran military spouse community. What comes to mind
when you think about playing those live and talking with
(30:48):
the military families during those gigs.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, I mean I was in Texas last week. We
played outside of Wimberley, a little festival at a Texas
roadhouse on air condition ninety eight degrees, full on Texas
kind of thing, And after we played, women came up
to the table in tears and wanted to hug me
and she said, the war, after the war, that's me.
(31:11):
I get those almost every single night when I play
the songs from Rifles and Rosarypies. There's people in the
audience who have lived it. And what happens I think
is cathartic. On the surface, if you're standing there watching it,
it looks like there's sorrow, like it looks sad, But
I think it's catharsis. I think it helps people to
(31:34):
not feel alone, to help people to know that they're
going through something a lot of other people are going
through and they're not singled out. It's not unique to them,
and they're not alone. They may feel alone and they
may not even have anybody to talk to, but they're
not alone. And all they got to do is start
talking about this stuff and they'll find their community of
(31:57):
other people. It's the secrecy, secrecy in silence that kills us.
So I think of it as a catharsis and aha,
and like, well, maybe I can talk about this. I
think there's hope in it. But if you were to
look at it and not know all that. It looks
like an interaction of sadness, but it's not. It's transformative.
Speaker 5 (32:20):
That transformation can save lives. It sounds kind of a
you know, it sounds out there, of course, to say
that a song saves a life. Okay here, I'm actually
sitting in the intensive care unit right now. Is a
song going to save a life today? No, but it's
going to save and restore and bring hope and change
(32:41):
lives and save lives over time. What you've been able
to do with this collection, with your albums and with
your fans is really I was getting at before, not
only the veteran community, right, this all began years ago.
So that's a powerful thing. It is to save other lives.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
It is, and I think it's connected to purpose. And
I honestly have a theory that the ancients knew this.
I think with the advent of the music business and
the monetization of music as a product, we've collectively forgotten
what music is for. I think the gods gave us
music so we don't have to be alone. That's what
(33:25):
harmony is is in harmony together. And I think that
the ancient people's and not that long ago, knew that
we sing together to bring people home. And what are
soldiers struggling with? The inability to come all the way home?
They get here physically, but emotionally and spiritually, they can't
find their way home. And this is something that music
(33:47):
can expedite. And I've seen it in real time. And
I don't know, you know, listeners may not know this,
but we've lost more of our military to suicide than
we did in the twenty odd years that they were
fighting in Afghanistan and in Iraq. And if we have
something that can help them come home and find peace,
(34:08):
I think we should all be engaging in that and
using that as a tool to help them come home.
They served us, We got to serve them. That's how
I see it.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
You know.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
I was in Austin, like I said, outside of Wimberley,
and we stayed in Austin last week and there's a
statue of a homeless veteran on the walk by the
river and soldiers have put their dog tags on it.
So much homelessness and suffering and suicide and pain in
the community that was of service.
Speaker 5 (34:41):
Tell me, Mary, there's a lot of service going on
in your years of songwriting and connecting with people indirectly. Indirectly,
you have been saving people along the way and really
giving them an opportunity to change or to heal, not
just with this innovative, collaborative approach where you write with people,
(35:02):
but obviously your your story that resonates.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
That's why I talk about it once. I talk about
adoption as traumas. I talk about recovery from from alcohol
and drug addiction and the possibilities that opens for people.
After you get sobered, you can live the life that
you were put here to live. You don't have to
suffer from an unlived life, your whole life.
Speaker 5 (35:25):
Yeah, back to that strange fire moment. Yeah, you're from
a military family. Yeah, and I don't think a lot
of people know that.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeah, my dad served in Korea, and in the last
days of his life, when when his brain was not
functioning properly at all anymore, he kept thinking he was
testifying in some kind of military tribunal. He never talked
about being in Korea. He was in intelligence and he
(35:55):
just kept his in his you know, assisted living, saying
I need I need a yellow pad and a paper,
and you give it to him and he'd sir, No, sir,
I cannot speak to that, sir like he was. He
was a soldier. Again. It brought pears to my eyes.
He never talked about it. The only thing I knew
about my father's military service was that he wouldn't allow
(36:16):
guns in our house.
Speaker 5 (36:18):
Your mom as a spouse, when you thought when you
wrote that song with Beth, in a sense, your mom
was one of those women.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
And I didn't know it. Yeah, So much of this
is mysterious, like you're doing something that has connections that
are real and you don't see him until after. It's
so mysterious.
Speaker 5 (36:41):
Your dad, I mean, there's a I encourage please people
read this amazing book. You talk about alcoholism and you
talk about your dad, and this is a whole conversation
in and of itself. But to what extent do you
if you look back, I mean, is there a connection
there to his service? And I think so some of
his own medication, I think so.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I think he experienced some kind of trauma, Yeah, and
it damaged him. I do I believe that.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
Yeah, because Mary, I mean you mentioned something. I think
this was earlier in the book. You talk about the
Vietnam War and you talk about your cousin Philip.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, Philip died young in Vietnam.
Speaker 5 (37:22):
He was twenty three Army KIA. You talk about the
Vietnam War and I remember, you know, I'm a little
younger than you, but I remember Walter Cronkite, and he
spanned a couple, you know, several decades, and I can
hear that as well. And then you talk about your parents' war,
and then you talk about your own war with your dad. Yeah,
(37:43):
which is heavy stuff obviously, but that time in your life,
even though it was so hard and you left home early,
there was something really powerful that gave you the tools
later in life. I always think back to that. I
always wonder, you know, there's a power, There's something that
was in there that gave you the ability. It wasn't
(38:06):
just being pulled over by that cop.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
You know.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
I wish I could bottle it. I wish I could
name it, even Like, why do some people get arrested
for drunk driving and immediately when they get out of
jail start drinking again. Why do some people get sober
and some people just can't? You know? Why did some
people have this weird tenacity to go through being on
(38:31):
stage and knowing you suck, and knowing there's no way
to get better at it. You can't get better in
your living room. You got to do it in front
of people and work through the stage. Fright, Why would
I stick with it and others be unable? I don't
know what that is. I think it's constitutional. I think
(38:52):
I maybe have some just innate gifts that allowed me
to keep going and to get sober. But I also
think it's grace. I think there's some unmerited gift in
that that you don't deserve. That there's the notion of grace,
amazing grace saved a wretch like me. I mean, I
(39:14):
relate to that. I was a wretch. So it's ineffable
in so many ways. And there's no way to talk
about it without going into spiritual language, which becomes more
and more ethereal and starts to sound like some sort
of a religious pitch, and it's really not. It's quite practical,
(39:35):
and there's no theology behind it. There's just there's mystery.
Speaker 5 (39:40):
There's nothing wrong with that, I know. Yeah. I mean,
you mentioned to Amy Ray, who was gosh one of
my musical heroes. Me too. You said being terrified as
part of the agreement, Amy, you know, and I just
that hit me. I was actually what was I I
was doing the dishes the other day, you remember, or
(40:00):
what you're doing sometimes when something somebody says something so prolific. Anyway,
and then you went on to say that if going
forward is the goal, fear is going to be the emotion.
So I think that connects to what you're saying, Mary,
is that there's not without trepidation. There's fear here and
there's there's there's risks and it's not you know, I
have to say, there's there's a lot that connects to
(40:22):
service our service members. You're serving in a different way
and hats off. You know, behind you is that beautiful flag.
I'm seeing two things right now. I'm seeing a proud
military family member and a proud person that works with veterans.
And I'm seeing pride because I know Pride Month is
(40:44):
coming up. Yeah, absolutely, happy early Pride.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Thank you. Yeah, that's another thing I need to talk
about and not not not be in the shadows about it.
You know, I'm a I'm a i'm a i'm a
gay woman, and i'm i'm i'm an advocate for LGBTQ.
People and all that I think we're asking for as
respect and dignity. Uh and uh, you know, permission to
(41:12):
live our lives without being assaulted or ridiculous laws being
passed against our personhood. And you see a Ukrainian flag too,
I'm I'm definitely concerned what's going on over there in
awe of the courage of those people, uh, and the
(41:36):
absolute tenacity and commitment to their democracy. I think Americans
can learn a lot if we watch closely. What they're
doing to save their democracy is astonishing. Uh and I
fully support their effort.
Speaker 5 (41:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
So yeah, flags are powerful symbols, and yeah, you can
you can definitely make a statement with the flag.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
You know, my daughter actually is fourteen and she I
didn't know that the Pride flag was. I think it
was in the seventies that it started to be more
of a part of our culture. But things have really
changed since that time. Is over fifty years, Oh my god,
so much. So. You're right, there's been some really amazing
advancements in the openness and the understanding is probably light
(42:25):
years than it was when you started coming of age.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Oh my god. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (42:29):
But at the same time, it's not going away, and
we know that there's a lot of lack of understanding.
How does that connect to your writing? If anything.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
What's interesting to me is that when you go into
music and you start to take it seriously, and then
you take the stage and you start building a career,
you don't choose your fans, they choose you. And I figured,
you know, I probably would have a fan base that
was more or less predominantly gay lesbian, and that's just
not true. It's not my base at all. I connect
(43:02):
deeply with heterosexual men who are a lot like me.
My fan base looks more like a Guy Clark fan
base or townsman Zant fan base, or you know, Chris
Christofferson or the John Prime.
Speaker 5 (43:17):
It's those guys.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Yeah, it's those guys. Those guys. I'm kindred with them,
and my musical development was deeply influenced by them. And
the people who come to see me are people who
would go to those shows. So it really, weirdly doesn't
(43:39):
have a lot to do with music for me.
Speaker 5 (43:43):
I don't There shouldn't be an expectation that it does.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
You know, I'm the one who had it. Actually, I
thought that's what it would be, but it's not. And
I'm just grateful that I have people that come. Everybody's welcome,
you know, if you can relate to what I'm doing,
I'm so happy to have you there. Uh And and
it's really a uh, a diverse group of people that
(44:11):
that come in. Uh And I don't you know, I
don't hide who I am. But I also that's that's
not the nature of my songs. I don't. I don't
sing about being gay. I don't. I don't know how
to write songs about that. I write songs about being
a human.
Speaker 5 (44:29):
Yeah, so so beautifully said, and so and so real.
I mean, you know what's interesting is that in a sense,
you become an allies or you not an ally. You
become a conduit for all types to really, you know,
if there was ever a connection. It's really, like you said,
those guys that may normally, you know, they may listen
(44:50):
to Guy Clark and others and John Prian, but now
they're you know, part of the whole family. And it's
a great thing.
Speaker 6 (44:56):
You know.
Speaker 5 (44:57):
It's interesting. Like I don't have a question here, but
I when I was in college, it was nineteen eighty
nine and I was in Burlington, Vermont. I remember seeing
the Indigo Girls. We went, we heard about there's such
a buzz around that time, obviously, right, and here I am,
you know, straight dude, you know, eighteen years old. Mostly women.
I think there was probably like eighty percent women in
(45:19):
the audience. I'm a songwriter as well, I'm a musician.
That was transformative for me. I mean, I I I'm
scredible time.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
It was incredible time.
Speaker 5 (45:28):
I play it for my kids. You know, it's I
just the other day I was like, you know the
song secure Yourself to Heaven, Secure Yourself. I think I
was actually when I was on the one of those
walks when I was listening to your book. It probably
triggered because you know, the Indego girls you talked about.
So I put it on Spotify and I was just
sat there.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
I'm like, wow, so great.
Speaker 5 (45:47):
And there are harmonies and just so what they you
know what they did, as you said, I think to
Amy in your interview something about like blasting open the
door for other people.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
They did. They kicked there was a cultural moment. Their
music came ahead of the changes that that we were
about to go through. They blasted down the door. And
Amy shocked me when she said, but we hated ourselves
and we were in the closet. Like it didn't matter,
(46:18):
did it. It happened anyway because the music, again is
always a music and song is always ahead of the songwriter.
There's a wisdom in the art form that transcends the individuals.
And so when you know, when when like when you
reference that I've saved lives with this practice, I would
(46:41):
push back a little and say, well, I was a
midwife in the process of salvation, but music and song
saved the lives.
Speaker 5 (46:50):
Yeah, a midwife, You were the mid songwriter?
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Yes, that like that because it's not you to me.
Anybody who understands the art firm can do it, can
bear witness and help expedite that kind of experience that
pulls somebody from the edge back in.
Speaker 5 (47:10):
Well you, what did you say? Don't leave music and
songwriting up to the professionals, right? I love that?
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Well, And what I'm saying there is that if all
we focus on is monetization and bottom line and turn
it into McDonald's where everybody's having McNuggets, the experience that
I describe in the book doesn't happen because it's a
product to be sold more than more than the mystery
(47:39):
to be approached.
Speaker 5 (47:40):
With respect and more than the process.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
M h. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (47:44):
And that gets to the collaborative model, because you know
with Dardin Smith and others, we've you know, work with
You did this amazing job with us with the Frontline
songs and and and all the stuff you do with
with with veterans. It's you can write one on one
with somebody which is beautiful, like you did with Joe right,
Joe Costello and others, And there's a to me, there's
(48:07):
a certain there's a bond there that you can create
and you can well, let me ask you, what's the
difference Mary, when you are one to one with anybody,
whether they're you know, going through any type of trauma
and you versus that group and that cohesion.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
You know, the group is there to witness what happened
one on one in the workshops. So one on one
you create trust and you bear witness in non judgment,
and you take their story and turn it into their song,
and the group then is the witness and the writing
of the song is only fifty percent of the deal
(48:48):
that causes transformation. Then you have to bring it to
a group of witnesses who then bear witness and see
the inside of that person that you've written with, and
the witnesses then experience empathy and embrace that person, and
they are brought to a new place of self acceptance,
an understanding of their own humanity, that that that that
(49:13):
that they're not different than everyone else.
Speaker 5 (49:17):
I'm like you, brother, Yeah, me too, man you sister,
me too?
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Man?
Speaker 5 (49:21):
Yeah. Mary, You've been so gracious. You're on the road,
You're doing a lot of things. What's next for you?
What's what's uh? What's hot on Mary's mind? Now?
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, we're hitting the road. I got a new record
coming out June third, and so I've got tour dates
and tour dates and tour dates, and it's an exciting time.
Here we go again. Record number eleven is going eleven
to the world.
Speaker 5 (49:43):
Yes, I will not make a spinal tap reference, I promise,
but eleven beautiful. So we heard some of the music,
it's great. What do you excite? Is there a theme
to any of this album or is it sort of
purely old school a bunch of great songs.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Well, what what we've been through in the pandemic has
made its appearance there for sure. Yea, and love the
importance of love and the intensity of what we've all
been through. You know, we we've all lost a lot
of people. The numbers are staggering, and so there's grief
(50:21):
and there's loss and there's love, and so that's the
nature of it.
Speaker 5 (50:26):
And how can how can how can we all really
identify as an understatement and how can we heal with
some of that? As you're you know, you're the spiritual leader, Mary,
You're you're sort of helping us get through that every day.
So we can't wait to hear the all the whole album.
Thank you, Mary, Thank you so much for your time
and for all you do and for your you know
(50:47):
you're serving those who served and many others.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
So thank you, Thank you, Ron, thank you, Lucy. Appreciate
y'all doing this. Take care of y'all.
Speaker 6 (50:55):
It's dug enough to see dogging enough to sease s.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
That ig love, to see the.
Speaker 6 (51:09):
Light in an ocean black, indeed.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
In the middle of the night.
Speaker 4 (51:24):
As a hold on till you're love, like those lights
from up a block.
Speaker 6 (51:36):
I've drifted out, so fall it's talking enought to see
the sun. I've been carried out, so fall it's talking
enough to see.
Speaker 5 (51:56):
Sum Thank you to our guest Mary Gachet, for your talents,
your support and service over the years. For so many
Mary's books, Saved by a Song is one you should
really read or listen to on Audible. I listened to
Mary's book and was entrance with not only the storyteller
coming from her own voice, but the fact that each
(52:19):
chapter is punctuated by a unique song. These songs are
really chapters of her life with a common thread of
resilience and recovery. And of course check out the new
album dark Enough to See the Stars, which is available
right now. Speaking of songwriting with Soldiers, if you've not
listened already, we have an episode called Warrior Healer that
was released February seventeenth, twenty twenty, that highlights a song
(52:41):
co written by one of our veteran alumni at Homebase
Air Force veteran Blair Morin and James House. So lastly,
I have two podcasts to recommend with Mary Gachet we
met in twenty eighteen on a podcast I was co
hosting called Above the Basement. If you're interested in a
show that covers the lives and stories of musicians, check
out the show, produced and hosted by my Friend Chuck Clow,
(53:03):
which has over two hundred episodes in the vault. The
episode we refer to in today's conversation is number eighty
one in February twenty eighteen. Also be sure to check
out Mary's conversation on the November twenty twenty one episode
of Rick Rubin and Malcolm Gladwell's podcast Broken Record. Home
Based Nation is the official podcast for the Home Based
(53:24):
Program for veterans and military families. Follow Home Based on
social media. At Home Based Program, please listen and follow
us on Apple, iHeart, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This episode was produced, edited and engineered by Lucy Little.
I'm Ron Hirschberg. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see
you next time.
Host
Lynn Hoffman
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