Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 98: Grasp It - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
This is a show where we recap our early episodes
with new case info and lots of old feelings.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Today we're rewinding to episode ninety eight, which we named
grasp It. Why did we do that?

Speaker 2 (00:32):
I wonder we're about to find out. This episode originally
was released on December seventh, twenty seventeen.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
All right, let's get into the intro of episode ninety eight.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
Should we do some coffee steps for the ASMR people?
Oh wait, oh god. Welcome to my favorite Murder the
Coffee episode.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Recording at around four o'clock in the afternoon the.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
Sooty skies of Los Angeles, California. It's just everything is burning.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
The world is burning down, and right in the center
of it, we're here to help you enjoy Murder Karen.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
The soothing voice of Karen Kilgarreth.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
And Georgia heart Stark over to my left, and of
course the big Sipper himself, Stephen Ray Morris. Yeah, did
you do a nice loud one? Could you hear yourself? No,
you got to take the hit for the show, all right.
He took another big SIPs like I'm making him chug

(01:38):
it like he's joining a frat.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Let's pause and chug coffee and then let's get back
on and talk.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
And just start screaming like we can't talk because our
mouths are burned. That's a that's a subset of ASMR videos.
What burned mouth ASMR videos?

Speaker 3 (01:52):
Do you know what I watch? I repeat for like
that wasn't true? What were you about to say? Oh,
I just watched this video.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
There's there's the sn instagram called like burn it, and
they just fucking burn things. I think it's like an
ASMR for your eyeballs.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
Is that a thing?

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yes, it's called and they especially if you're an narsonist.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
What's it called, Stephen? Do you know? No, it's what
liking things burning down is.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, like watching things burn so the poor acid on
like soap, and you just watch it and sometimes you
could hear it bubbling, or they'll just torch like a
fucking like a little toy, plastic child's toy, Oh, child's toy.
But I watched them melting a tube of lipstick over
and over, so satisfying.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
What did they use to melt it? Like a fire?
Like a lighter? Wow? It was so soothing and satisfying.
I bet did it all did?

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Like the liquid, like the lipstick itself melt and then
the plastic melt afterwards.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
It's the lipstick they did. No, I'm just saying, yeah,
they didn't the order of melting to me. They only
put it on to the lipstick and the lipstick melted.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
Oh not the that was it. Elvis has joined us.
By Elvis, let's talk about murder.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
I have an update from the Amish murders that I
talked about a couple of weeks ago. This email says
Karen Gjor just even and all the animals lost my
shit listening to you tell the little Boy Blue murder.
My friends made fun of me, so it would be
ideal if you could read this on the podcast, so
they feel Hella dumb in your fucking face.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
I grew up farm you, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
I'll read it.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
Who doesn't.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
I grew up on a farm around the area where
the body was found. But I had to let you
know that you miss the uplifting gives you hope in
the whole fucked up story ending. The people of Chester
population two hundred and twenty five, raised money to bury
the unidentified boy under the name of Matthew, which means
gift from God. The memorial service was packed with four

(03:54):
hundred people, almost double the population of the entire town.

Speaker 3 (03:57):
People still visit his grave.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
And leave to and flowers, and they maintain his memorial,
even rebuilding it after a tornado. I grew up there
about a decade later, and I still heard the story
and my parents pointed out the memorial every time we
drove by. The town completely adopted the little boy Blue,
and even now feel so strongly about honoring his memory.
Just thought you might like to know that even though

(04:20):
there are crazy assholes who murder their wives, roommates, and children,
there are also tiny Nebraska towns who open.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
Their hearts to show a lot of love.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
SSDGM can't wait to catch you in Saint Louis in
a couple of weeks, Kayleie, I love it Nebraska. I
love a I mean always let us know if there's
an uplifting ending we've missed.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
Please, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
Can someone email us right now and tell me about
my story this week's uplifting ending because I couldn't find it.

Speaker 3 (04:50):
Oh it's a bummer, yeah, I okay, okay, you were
gonna tell me about a show that you watch that
you really like called Woar. It's a movie, Okay, it's
a documentary.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
So it's an author named Gayta Leise, who was very
famous for doing kind of like expose type of s, say,
long reads in the seventies. I've never I made most
of that up based on what I saw briefly in
this documentary.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
I've always started his name.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
I've never read him, but anyway, he's clearly brilliant and
has been doing it forever. And he got contacted by
a man. I'll just do this the lightest version possible,
so there's no spoilers. He was contacted by a man
who had a thirty year secret, and the secret is
because obviously the name of the movie's voy year. The
man owned a motel that he set up so that

(05:43):
he could go watch people through the vents in the
ceilings in every room.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
Oh my god. But he didn't record it on video.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
He just would go up there watch them and then
recorded in minute detail what he saw, like into a
tape recorder, into a journal, and then he basically gave
Gates Leaves these writings.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Oh can you imagine how happy he she was?

Speaker 2 (06:07):
You have to see it because at first I'm like,
this is so weird and disgusting.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
This guy is such a pervert, but.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
No one's acting like that at the beginning, and it's
just a fascinating I just highly recommend.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
I'm going to watch that.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
Do you think you've ever been like watched illegally, you
know what I mean, like in a hotel room?

Speaker 3 (06:26):
Odds are yes. God, I think I would think.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
All the gross things I've done, and I hope it
wasn't then in a hotel room.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
Man, Well, I think that's the appeal of hotel room.
You're supposed to It's like this weird kind of neutral
space where you get to do things you would never do.

Speaker 3 (06:41):
At home, right, And so that's kind of.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Like he he was already a voyeur and then he
bought the it's a motel, he bought it with that
in mind. It's crazy because he knew that would be
the perfect place.

Speaker 3 (06:52):
Why am I like, well, at least he didn't videotape them.
It's like that's not better, I know.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
But these days we're all just trying to go like
is the worst thing ever? We're trying to like, can
we hold back a little judgment? But I think that's
what this documentary is kind of about, is the way
we all do that in lots of different ways.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
I love it. It's good. I highly recommend it.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
I want to recommend this show that I found that
I had to watch three times on Amazon. It's a pilot.
I don't know if it's got I don't think it's
gotten picked up yet. It's called c Oak and it's
so fucking weird and good. It's like a dark comedy. Okay,
it's Glenn Close. There's this like boring old woman who
lives with her like niece and nephew. Niece's a nephew,

(07:33):
and it's fucking crazy and gets really dark.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
Okay, I want to say.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
This essentially essentially, and I'm kind of spoiling it, but
this is what the p okay Glenn Close, Jack Quaid,
he's like the boy in it, and he's like the
cutest little thing you've ever seen.

Speaker 3 (07:48):
He's like a guy. He's like a grown man. Is
he Dennis Quaid's relative?

Speaker 1 (07:51):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
Is it c Oak like the Ocean s E A
s E A Oak. It's like and I think it
takes place in a like dystopian future A kind of Okay,
it's really good. I want to watch more episodes. I
hope they make more now. I really want to watch it.
Can I do one more? Because it just did. I
didn't talk about Godless last week?

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Did I.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
It's a western that's on Netflix, and apparently I tweeted
about it how bad ass it is because it's great
and Merrett Weaver is one of the stars and.

Speaker 3 (08:23):
She was from Nurse Jackie. She's one of my very
favorite actresses.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
She's the one who gave that Emmy speech by walking
up and going thanks and leaving, and I was like,
I've never loved anyone more.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
She's the best. Oh it's good.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
But she's also such a great, great, great actress. But anyway,
it's this. It's basically this town in this town, a
western town and I think it's New Mexico.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
I can't remember.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
They're just besieged by bad guys and what happens to
the town. There's a little history before, there's a certain circumstance.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
Is it a western?

Speaker 2 (08:55):
It's a Western? And but Lady Mary from Downton Abbey
is in it. Michelle Dockery, this amazing actor, British actor
named Jack somebody who is just like hot as can be,
and then Jeff Daniels plays.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
The bad guy. Oh I think Vince and I started
watching this.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
It's very slow at first because it's a Western, and
it's like they're doing it just like Westerns get done.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
I cannot tell you how much Westerns bore me, and
I know, like I know I'm going to get shipped
for that, but.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
It's like, well, it's your opinion. They're so slow, well
not all of them. And sometimes it's I feel like
this knew what it was doing, so it had it
did a thing at the beginning that was so crazy.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
Also, Sam h the one from Law and Order who
I love, Oh yeah with the uh yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
Anyway, there's a beginning that goes you just are like
what the fuck is this? And then and then it
goes into really unfolding. But there's an interesting thing. Someone
sent me a link that said I got bummed out
about that show after I read this article, and it
was an article that was like trying to be a takedown,
saying people are saying this is the feminist Western we've

(10:05):
all been waiting for, and here's how it's not. But
I would just encourage people because I know sometimes people
write those things, and I understand it's kind of trying
to say, like, don't label things the thing that you
say it is if it's not going to do a
B and.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
C, especially if the person who made it that wasn't
their intention.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
I don't think it was their intention, but I will
argue that you see women in this series doing things
you have never seen them in any modern or otherwise
kind of show before, and this is the Old West,
so it should it like.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
Has more meaning. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
I just thought it was really brilliantly written and acted.
So anyway, just in case somebody's gotten a hold of
a bad article, I would just say, test the waters
first for at least a.

Speaker 3 (10:50):
Couple episodes, because it's I think it's really good.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Stephen just gave me a printed up Instagram Apparently this
is what you kids spend all your time on on
this Instagram. I don't go on there, but it was
from Colleen Elizabeth. Colleen's her name was Colleen.

Speaker 3 (11:10):
What'd you say?

Speaker 2 (11:11):
God, damn it, Clarissa explains it all everything, she replied.
She sent a picture of what she gave me and
drawing that we talked about last week.

Speaker 3 (11:23):
The beautiful horizon drawing.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah she yeah, so she said. I gave a painting
to mfm's Cercle Garriff at the Minneapolis show. I was
too broke to buy good tickets, so my friend and
I bought cheap ones and I left the painting with
a girl sitting at the VIP table. I was pretty
sure it would never make it to her. The shout
out on the pod was more than I ever expected,
and the outpouring of support is overwhelming. My shop is

(11:47):
empty thanks to a few Murderinos who bought things. New
work is coming soon thanks to you guys. I'm humbled
by the support. Also, my frames are made by my
incredible boyfriend at mn of Woodcraft. He's an amazing woodworker
and the best frame maker I've never paid. And I
specifically mentioned the frame because it's the coolest.

Speaker 3 (12:08):
It's like it's floating inside a frame.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
I went on her site because we posted. You can
see the photo on Instagram, my favorite murder Instagram. I
went on her site and I'm like, fucking gonna buy
something when she reposts they're so there's so many and
they're so beautiful.

Speaker 3 (12:20):
Oh good, I look at a I've When I first
put it up.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
I put it in a weird spot and then I
realized I want to put it in a spot I
passed constantly.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
It's that like soothing to me. It's so nice. I
love it. Yeah, and thanks you guys for supporting her.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
Everyone you've murderingos are fucking good people. Thank you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
So, who's going first this week? Based on our new algorithm?
How's your how's your murder?

Speaker 2 (12:46):
I don't believe in the new algorithm. Okay, it doesn't
work that way. Okay, I mean you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, I went, Well, how about I went first last week? Yeah,
I'll do it right, Yes.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Steven, God damn, it's one of the twenty ninth things.
You have to have twenty nine thousand things to do,
and you can't do this one.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
Definitely went to check. I don't even need it notes.
So yeah, yeah, because Karen went last last time. Yeah,
I went first last night? Oh last last You went
last last time?

Speaker 2 (13:17):
What I mean?

Speaker 3 (13:18):
You just say okay.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
And we're back. Do you remember those ASMR melting lipstick videos?

Speaker 1 (13:28):
I did not remember them, and tell this episode, I
was like, oh yeah, I was really into that. Why
isn't my algorithm showing me that anymore.

Speaker 3 (13:33):
Is that just out it's just not hip anymore?

Speaker 1 (13:36):
I think it is, but I think it's bigger on
TikTok and I'm on Instagram.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Maybe maybe. Also I watched an electrolysis video for so.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
Long the other night. Yes, oh god, that's satisfying.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
I've been fed those. It's like, oh, you like gross stuff,
here's this or like plucking. Oh my god, it's so satisfying.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
It's so but it's not as gross as Doctor Pimple Popper,
which is also very satisfying. But sometimes it takes it
turned totally like you see and you can't unsee it.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
I've also started being fed like lash grooming videos of
people who do like lash filler and now you just
like they just video it super close up. Lash is
being calmed out, Lash is being glued. It's just like
this calm focused Lash thing. Yeah, and it's it's really

(14:23):
fucking satisfying. Oh and then I completely forgot about the
Boyers Motel, that documentary.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
I know, which is a great documentary and then also
not real.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Totally so irritating. Yeah, what happened.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
It was like they found out that the guy never
actually owned it like that he was basically kind of
a confabulator, and so part of the story of him
doing that at the motel was also a story, and
so that he was the only source of it improvable
and he didn't even own it. So the odds that
he was kind of just you know, yeah, basically lying

(14:58):
for fun, which it was such a hilarious that should
be a new documentary. That's amazing people who Yeah, for sure,
you're going to go tell an incredibly famous writer journalist
your story that's fascinating and not ever go this might
be a bad idea.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
I just met the guy who created the documentary Tickled.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
Oh yeah, David Ferrier.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
David Ferrier. I met him, and the new one he's
doing is something really interesting too. Let me try to
remember it off the top of my head.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Is it about the church?

Speaker 1 (15:28):
No, it's something else now.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
Because of Tickled, I'm a huge David Ferrier fan and
I followed him for years on Twitter, and then one
day I pulled up to work here and he was
standing outside the building and immediately I immediately recognized him,
and then I freaked out, and then I had to
look up to make sure I was right, and I was.

Speaker 3 (15:48):
So I got out of the car and.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
I was getting ready to be like, Hi, are you
waiting to go inside or whatever, And right as I
got out of the car, someone opened the door and
brought him inside.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
And I never met him.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
Oh no, he was at your aunt literally, or I
bet he was there for trust Me.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
He was on trust Me. So go back to their
January episodes and look up David Ferrier. He basically had
a hand in kind of breaking up this mega church
that was really you have to listen to it. But
he basically kind of like started this campaign of like
taking down the person that ran this church, and it
was mostly on social media, just like asking for people

(16:26):
to tell him stories of first hand accounts of having
to get out of the church and stuff.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
He's an agitator.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
He's a real deal.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
I did a show with him with for Jonahray's new
stand up show, and he is so funny and charming
and like, you know, news from New Zealand. So you
can say anything you want.

Speaker 3 (16:44):
It's charming and they he can say anything he wants.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
It's great.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
Oh sorry, that's what you were saying. I thought you
mean you could be led to him like hey, go
fuck yourself there. He'd be like, that's wonderful.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
No, I was too nervous to say anything.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah, he's nerves. I stand by my godless recommendation because
it's Merit Weaver, who has since I think, won a
bunch of Emmys. But then it's also Michelle Dockery and
Jack O'Connell, who was the vampire in Sinners. It's like
a you gotta go see that TV show.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
I haven't seen it. I don't think I ever did it,
like one all these emmys and stuff.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
So yeah, it's a great Western story about women who
have to take over a town.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Hell yeah, it's real good, you guys. Let's bring it
back from twenty seventeen. It's vintage now like this podcast.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
So that's right, a vintage godless wreck.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
Okay, should we do it. Let's do it a right.
Let's get into Karen's story about Marcel Petois.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
Well, then, let me tell you a little something about
a man.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
And you may have heard of him.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Uh. He's an evil doctor during World War two named
Marcel Petois.

Speaker 3 (17:56):
Oh my god, I think that's how you say his name.
That sounds beautiful.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
I've watched a documentary about him. I've done a couple
of things.

Speaker 3 (18:04):
I still can't remember how to pronounce his name sounds
bele p e t io t patula.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
I mean, I took French for two years, so I'm
expretty much a citizen.

Speaker 3 (18:17):
Yeah, okay, all right.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
So Marcel Patois was born January seventh, eighteen ninety seven.

Speaker 3 (18:22):
At what did you write? It's the eighth word, and
I'm stopped cold.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
No, it's axair, I believe, or ozaire maybe aux e
r r e. You know what I might do for
the rest of this story is replace French words with
American ones. So he was born January seventeenth, eighteen ninety seven,
at Austin, France, one hundred miles south of Paris. His

(18:51):
neighbors allege that he enjoyed torturing animals from an early age,
and they say his first arrest.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
And a lot of people say that this is stuff that.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Came up after his most famous arrest, and that it
was just neighbors talking and making stuff up. But it
doesn't seem out of the bounds of any story we've
ever told before. His first arrest was after he made
sexual advances toward a male classmate then fired his father's
gun inside a classroom.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
He was eleven. Whoa shit, I was like, great in college.
That's fine. If you shoot a gun in college, it's expected.
It's like Van Wilder. Shit.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
So then between nineteen oh seven nineteen oh nine, when
he was between ten and twelve years old, his parents
told doctors that he was prone to convulsions and sleepwalking,
and he habitually wet his trousers and beds.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Don't want your trousers, doc means head injury, probably right.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
Head injury, and maybe that he was like a psychopath,
maybe from or some serious organic brainish. It's taking place.
Classic shit, so classic, let's get a swing in there.

Speaker 3 (20:07):
Sorry, So they came her belching away from that. I
just don't ever want to know that. She just keeps
like you keep throwing, like kind.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
Of throwing yourself back onto the couch to belch and
then coming back forward and just belching.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
It's like a little hiccup, just doing a No, it
was a full that was a full on belch of good.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
Okay, this is a this is a real ASMR episode
in the bad way.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
So his mother dies in nineteen twelve, his daughter, his
father takes a job fifteen miles away, he has to
stay with his aunt. Him and his brother go to
live with his aunt, and while he's between, when he's
staying with her, he gets expelled from one school, he
gets sent back with his dad. He gets expelled from
another school, all from quote over excitement end quote, unruly behavior.

(20:49):
So he's just he's out of his mind. And then
he finishes his education in a special academy in Paris
in July of nineteen fifteen. So then when he's a teenager,
he gets into the petty crime standard fair. He robs
a mailbox, but in court he's found not guilty because
of mental illness. So he said a pattern starts to

(21:12):
set up pretty early. Of he does fucked up shit,
he claims insanity or gives them he tells them about
stuff and they go, oh, no, he doesn't have to
go to jail.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
He's crazy.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
And then he gets out and just keeps on doing stuff,
which I think is could be a theory the psychopath
learned early that if you say I have these things,
then you never have to kind of pay for your crimes.

Speaker 3 (21:36):
You just do whatever you want.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
It's kind of what it seems like, so in nineteen sixteen,
he's drafted into the French infantry to fight in World
War One. I typed World War One Jay, So I
don't know if that was a side project. You know,
remember when World War One started and then it was

(22:00):
it was a through.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
Before.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
Maybe what you're doing is you try to make an
emoji have a smiley face. You know when someone does
that and they don't have an iPhone and it's just
a j maybe maybe it's World War smiley face.

Speaker 3 (22:13):
Oh my god, it was.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
World War One is like have you ever watched like
a movie that's like a true to life World War
One story where it's like.

Speaker 3 (22:22):
It's the horrifying, is horrifying and horrifying.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
It's like everything was up close, like bayonet style, but
then some mustard gas and they would go through.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
It went on and on.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
Everything's millions of people. It's snowing. You don't have an
you don't have fucking boots for snow. No, it's barbaros
mud filled with water and rats.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
It's like they went to a mudfield and we're like,
let's settle it here.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
And then they just kept sending people.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
The soldiers will come out and they would have to
go to rest homes because they would have shell shock
and they would just get sent back out over and
over and over. Crazy, just a nightmare town. So picture
and everyone put yourself there.

Speaker 3 (23:00):
Let's go there now.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
In a town called Aisne, he had been gassed, he
was wounded, and then he exhibited signs of a mental breakdown. Now,
of course it would make perfect sense that he would
be doing that anyway, but he also could have been
trying to get out of sure going there, I would too.

(23:24):
He went to what they called them clinics and rest homes.
So he got sent to a couple where he was
arrested for stealing army blankets. Where are you going to
go with that blanket?

Speaker 3 (23:33):
Marcel?

Speaker 4 (23:34):
What?

Speaker 3 (23:35):
Marsa? How many do you even need?

Speaker 2 (23:36):
I mean, you can't march with them. You're going to
get caught by the guy that yells okay. He's jailed
for that, and then they put him back onto the front.
In June of nineteen eighteen, like three weeks later, he
shoots himself in the foot. Literally, Yeah, that's what I
would have done. And that's the thing that they It
used to be that they would people would do that

(23:58):
or put their hand up movie. Really guy puts his
hand up and gets his hand shot off, and then
he's what is that cowardice? They court martial you for that.
Anyway he does that, he gets diagnosed with amnesia, sleepwalking, depression,
and suicidal tendencies, and he ends up getting discharged with

(24:18):
a forty percent disability pension. Then in September of nineteen twenty,
his case gets reviewed and they up the rating to
one hundred percent. Oh my god, it would be very fascinating.
I want to there's so much in this story. It's crazy.
I honestly do. I say it all the time, but
I really do want to read a book about this
one because to figure.

Speaker 3 (24:38):
Out or to read about was it him learning the
system and gaining it or was he fucking bananas? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (24:44):
And did the bananas build into what his crimes that
came later?

Speaker 1 (24:48):
The bananas the bananas build no whole banana tree?

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Uh okay.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
So the person that reviewed that and said he should
have one hundred percent disability also suggested that he'd be
committed to an asylum, But he had already entered a
mental hospital, not as a patient. He had gone through
an accelerated education program for war veterans and he'd gone
to in eight months he finished medical school and he

(25:17):
was serving a two year psychiatric internship.

Speaker 3 (25:20):
See he's putting it on, writing the whole thing on.
He knows I couldn't do that, and I have a
fucking sound that well.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
Well, because he's a I mean he's from what they say,
he was a super genius.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
This is part. That's part. He's like a super villain
me too, true true.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
So anyway, he so now he's like they it's like
the patients are running me a sound anyway, so fascinating.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
I wish I could just see, Like all I want
is like a ten second video clip of him. I
know it does it doesn't exist, and it's impossible, but
wouldn't have be cool.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Well I'll tell you this if you want to think
about him while I tell you the story. He has
kind of crazy ron Lanch hair that doesn't help many
people who are listening. Sorry, he had well you know
what he has kind of Stephen here, he's got he's
got hair that it looks like he throws it back
and forth in every direction across his head all the time.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
Because it's like bloofy.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah, Well there's love body and some curl and he
also has a mustache.

Speaker 3 (26:19):
What then, are you a time traveler?

Speaker 2 (26:21):
Here's the difference, though, and we're going to keep our
eye on you, Steven. One of his eyes is way
bigger than the other. So there's a picture of him
that kept coming up when I was trying to find
like videos on YouTube, and it looks like a cartoon
of a surprised person. But that's what his face looked like.

Speaker 3 (26:39):
Surprise, I'm a psychopath. Surprise, my eyes look graz though.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
He Yeah, he gets his degree on December fifteenth, nineteen
twenty one from.

Speaker 3 (26:51):
Mid Islandery. That was great, thank you. I got super
scared in the middle.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
And then he becomes a full on doctor, full fledged
on the paper because I got and pasted it. So
so then he starts a practice in Villeneuev's syon, I mean,
and he's getting paid not by his patients who come
to see him. And then he's also still getting a

(27:18):
government assistance and he's on tons of drugs. So he's
one of those doctors it's like, you know, popping pills
the whole time.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
They're all on drugs, right, I mean, what did you?

Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (27:30):
Because also you have to know how drugs work. You
have to take them a little bit.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, you have to kind of educate yourself, right, But
then also you just have them around.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
Yeah, freebies. It's like me with those fucking pen and
M and ms.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
I can't keep my hand out of that thing anyhow,
Oh you okay. So they believe his first victim is
a woman named Louise de la Vaux, and she is
the daughter of one of his elderly patients. He starts
having an affair with her in nineteen twenty six, and
soon after that affair starts, their home is burglarized and

(28:07):
set on fire, and.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
They they suspect him, Marcel Petua, and then Louise disappears
May nineteen twenty. Woman he's having a fair disappears, that's right, okay.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
So it's like they're dating. It's all going off. She's like,
he might be the one. Say she was elderly, her
relative was elderly, who went It's almost like the young
girl brought the old grandma to the doctor. And then
he's like, well, hello, hello to you, young lady, and
hello to you.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
So the neighbors say that they saw a Petois load
a big trunk into his car, and then.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
Weeks later one is fished.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
Out of a river that looks very similar to the
one that they saw him loading into his car, and
when they fish it out of the river, it's filled
with dismembered, composed remains of a young woman who's never identified,
and the police, after learning all of the that soe
whole setup, decide that she's a runaway.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
So no, yeah, you know those fucking nineteen twenties French runaways.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
They've thrown their beret and they're fucking out of there.
Get the fuck out of there.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
You can kind of get a bag at anywhere, so
you could be on the road for as long as
you want.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
It true back in the day, later days or a
wan motherfucker.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
That's right, bring that red lipstick girl, or just throw
in your pocket and smoke. Okay, the same year. Now
it's gonna seem like I'm changing the subject to a
different podcast. He runs for mayor.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
What the thing where You're like, yeah, you oops, I
was doing another paper on something else and I combined
the two.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yeah, I'm like, what Wikipedia article is this that I'm
cutting and pasting Now?

Speaker 3 (29:52):
No, guy is all over the place.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
He's he's got a ton of energy, he's got wild
eyes because he has all the mens he needs.

Speaker 3 (30:00):
See, I bet he's just taking coke pills for real,
and I have a coke pill please. I mean, here's
here's a downside.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
We are actually talking about this the other night because
I was telling somebody one of my speed in the
nineties resulting in seizure stories, and I.

Speaker 3 (30:15):
Was like, everybody thinks you do this.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
You go through this thing and you're like twenties and
thirties where you're like, I could just kind of do whatever,
and then it's like your late thirties and early forties
is when you find out you absolutely can't. Like there's
going to be a bottom dropping out of this kind
of casual adderall phase that everyone goes through, which God
bless no judgment, but like, you can't do it forever,
and you got to make a plan for when you stop,

(30:38):
because it's bad for you, like your heart valves and shit.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Oh no, be careful.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
As for someone who is on fucking permanent seizure medication,
let me just tell you from the other side of that,
it's not pretty and it hasn't happened yet. It's going
to be like the new like mesothelium ads that are
on TV.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
Do you think I'm going to be like fuction anyway?
How much do you take? Have you ever had a
heart attack?

Speaker 1 (31:02):
Not yet?

Speaker 3 (31:03):
I do it right now. Well, let's just keep our
eye on that.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
I mean, listen, everybody's doing what they need to do,
you know what I mean these days especially so Okay,
so he's out leading the people.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
All right, the mayor thing.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, we have to get back into the story. That
doesn't make any sense with what I have been telling
you about. Okay, can he lay low? No, he's a psychopath.
He's like, he's got it, He's got the world on
a string.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
So he hires an accomplice.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
The reason he won is because he hired an accomplice
to disrupt a political debate with his opponent. So he
wins like he basically fucked with his opponent.

Speaker 3 (31:40):
And then one.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Then he once he's in office, embezzles from the town es.

Speaker 3 (31:47):
Dude living his life. He's just you know what.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
It is, I feel like and this does remind me
of being on speed. It's that thing of when you're
in the moment you're like fuck it, yes or fuck
it like you just decide to grasp it while you can.

Speaker 3 (32:00):
Yeah, and do all of the crazies do it all.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Just pretend like nothing's going to happen in an hour
or a day.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
Just go for it. Okay, Okay.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
In nineteen twenty seven, he marries a woman named Georgette blah.

Speaker 5 (32:13):
Blah, Oh it's all the keys blah blah blah blah,
Georgette blah blahe ohete.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
And they have a son named Gearhart. Sorry okay. Local
authorities received numerous complaints about his theft and shady financial
dealings as he's the mayor, and he's eventually suspended in
August of nineteen thirty one, and he and resigns the
village council also resigned in sympathy. I don't know what

(32:48):
a village council is, but it sounded like he had
manipulated people in the town so much and gotten them
convinced that, like, no, he's the best. That when they
were like, you can't be the mayor anymore, they were like,
we're going to oh my god.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
Five weeks later, on October eighteenth, he's elected as a
councilor for the Yon District Yo Yo en any it's
like Yvonne with NOV unless something happened.

Speaker 3 (33:14):
Unmost there wasn't. Unless it is maybe the.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
V dropped off the page when I wasn't paying attention
to Yvonne France.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
She wears so much perfume.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
In nineteen thirty two, he's accused of stealing electric power
from the village near that's a quaint point. He's like,
looking some shit up. Yeah, He's like, what, it's just
for my RV. But he'd moved it by the time
they figured that out. They were like, you're off the council.
And he had already moved to Paris, so it didn't matter.

(33:45):
And while he's there, he sets up a new practice
and he makes up all these credentials and all these
people are like, oh my god, you heard this guy.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
He's the new doctor in town. You can't google it
exactly right, and linked in him. It's all word of mouth.
He probably got the one lunchial person made him love him,
gave him a coke pills, that's right.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
But while outwardly charming popular with most of his patients,
he secretly enrolled them for state medical assistance, thereby ensuring
that he was paid twice for each treatment, So he's
like a medicare scammer from Jump the Original.

Speaker 3 (34:22):
And he favored addictive.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
Narcotics in his prescription, so he was giving people booked
up shit.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
When one pharmacist complained of the near fatal dose that
he prescribed for a child, his reply was, what.

Speaker 3 (34:36):
Difference does it make to you?

Speaker 2 (34:39):
He did, isn't it better to do away with this
kid who's not doing anything in the world but pestering
its mother?

Speaker 3 (34:47):
So not a lot of compassion.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
I mean, it doesn't feel like that's his angle or
filter online.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
If this kid who's not doing anything, he just kind
of sick, just needs a little bit of help from
a doc. And then I did, what do kids do?
I mean, I guess back then they worked in the
coal mines and.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
Ship they were like, oh I'd love some speed, Yeah,
thank you, thank you, but the mother has to intervene, okay.
And then in nineteen thirty sixties appointed the mendicin Deta
Seville with authority so he can now write death certificates.
They just keep going, you're really fucked up. Here's a

(35:26):
little bit more responsibility. Can you take over this project?

Speaker 3 (35:29):
We just want to help you kill people a little yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, so and that same year he's institutionalized for kleptomania.
Uh huh. So after the so then World War two
breaks out. Okay, all right, and you mean World War
K Jak world or one K. Roman numerals were gone

(35:53):
into the Roman worlds of the world wars, so France
falls and uh he's of course now he's just taking
advantage he's doing. He's giving people weird fake certificates saying
people are sick when they're not to get out of shit,
and he's like running kind of a black marketing situation.
Any he's convicted in nineteen forty two of over prescribing narcotics.

(36:17):
But he's going to go to court and there's two
addicts that we're going to testify against him.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
The cops got them to.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
Flip on him. They disappeared, so he would end up
just being fined, but they're in the addict twenty four addict.
They're in the addicts addict. Yes, so he's fine twenty
four hundred francs, and they're just like, great, please don't
do it anymore.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
Oops, this guy's disappeared, so you're off the hook.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yeah, he brags to anyone who listened, that he's developing
secret weapons that can kill Germans without leaving forensic evidence,
that he's having high level meetings with Allied commanders, that
he's fighting for this resistance group and that resistance group
all over town. He's talking telling stories about that he's

(37:01):
planting booby traps around Paris.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
All this shit booby traps.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
He even says that he works with a group of
anti fascist Spaniards. Turns out that group never existed, Oh
my god, nor did many of the things that he
talked about. But the thing that he stumbled upon that
made him the most money and started off, the reason
he eventually became famous, is he started his own false

(37:25):
escape route out of occupied France.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
Explain that to me called fi fly talk.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
So basically, the Germans invade Paris and they take over,
and then they start saying, you Jews can only live
in this area and you can only go to the Oh.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
Get on the train.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
So of course everyone's trying to get out of France,
and he's like, I can get you out. All you
need is twenty five thousand Francs come to my house.

Speaker 3 (37:50):
He's one of those let's do this thing. Yeah, So.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
His code name is doctor Eugene. I think he made
that up. Well that's not really like cunning, it's not
cool sounding. So all it took was if you had
the money and he's and he basically said he could
arrange safe passage to Argentina or somewhere else in South
America through Portugal. So he got people to come to

(38:17):
his office or his this apartment, and he told them
that the Argentinian officials needed them to be inoculated, so
that he had to give them a shot. No, and
then he gave them a shot that was cyanide.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
Killed them, took all of.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
Their belongings and their money, and disposed of their bodies.
And oh no they were and all the people that
heard about him and went to him in secret to
get out of France were never seen again. Oh no.
So at first he dumped the bodies in the sun,
but he later destroyed them by submerging them in quickline

(38:55):
or burning.

Speaker 3 (38:56):
Them in this basement.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
So in nineteen forty one he buys a house at
twenty one Rue Lesseur, and what he fails to do
is again keep a low profile. So the Gestapo finds
out that there's this dude, doctor Eugene, that's getting Jews
and resistance fighters and all these people. Whoever has twenty
five thousand dollars out of France Franks, So they send

(39:25):
like a spy named Robert Dodkin. Oh sorry, an agent,
a Gestapo agent named Robert Jodkin makes for a prisoner
named Ivon. Dreyfuss says, you have to go be a spy.
Go contact this guy. Say you're trying to get out
of Germany. He disappears. Oh no, so then now the

(39:45):
Nazis are are onto him.

Speaker 3 (39:49):
So then okay. So on March sixth.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Nineteen forty four, this is get a good part because
this is fucking crazy. And this is where I stumbled
upon a doctor documentary about this, and this is where
the documentary starts, and it was amazing.

Speaker 3 (40:04):
I watched like a third of it.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
It was incredible. I thought I hit record. I had
to go leave to do something else, came back, didn't
record it. Can't find it, can't find it on you,
I can't find it anywhere, of course, but it started here,
and the way they told it was so good that
I was like, this is the best story. So March
six nineteen forty four, there's smoke coming from the chimney,
the chimney of that house, and it smells so bad

(40:30):
and it's burning and burning and burning. So the neighbors
complain and five days later they a group go to
the police and they're just like, someone's got to do
something about the smell coming out of his house and
the smoke coming out of this house. So when they
all go down to the front door on March eleventh,
they find a note on the door that says I'll
be back in a month. So they find out that

(40:56):
he also lives in that other house. He has two houses,
so the police call that house. It's two miles away.
They call that house and the pittois answers the phone
and says, have you gone inside yet? And the police
are like no, and he goes, okay, don't do anything.
I'll be there in fifteen minutes, and they're like okay,

(41:16):
And then he never shows up. So half an hour later,
it's now fully engulfed fire and they have to call
the fire department so that the other buildings nearby don't
burn down. And when the fire department breaks into the
second story window, they come upon a scene that's just
bodies and body parts everywhere they look. So then Pittois

(41:37):
arrives and when the police are like, what the fuck
is going on in your house, he's like, I'm a
member of the French resistance and I've been luring Germans
and Nazis to that.

Speaker 3 (41:47):
Apartment and killing them.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
And of course everyone, all the French people were like, great,
this is perfect, Yeah, don't worry about this, And so
they didn't arrest him because everyone was like, well, he's
part of the resistance, let's keep it up, yeah, or.

Speaker 3 (42:04):
Talk about it.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
But then they search the garage and that's when they
find a pit filled with quicklime with human remains still
in it. Then on the staircase there's a canvas sack
with human remains inside and enough body parts for at
least ten complete bodies ten And then the basement had

(42:26):
sinks that were large enough for draining corpses of their blood.
And there's a soundproof octagonal chamber with wall mounted shackles
and a people in the center of the door.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
Oh my god, what's great. Yeah, so they're not.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
This isn't just like trick a spy and to come
into your basement and kill them. There's something else going on,
and so, but they don't know if he truly is
a member of the resistance or if he's a German
like being like a double agent or whatever. And so
as the the a veteran Paris police commissioner Georges Victor Marseu,

(43:03):
I'm gonna stop doing that. I'm sorry, he runs the investigation.
And while he's they're investigating this crime scene, it's one
thirty in the morning, they get a telegram from police
Paris police headquarters from the Germans that the occupying I
mean that they keep saying Germans in this murder Pedia.
There's like, you know, seven articles on murder Pedia. They

(43:24):
keep saying Germans. But I think Germans and occupied France
were Nazis. I don't right, that's saying I would think,
so let me know when I'm wrong America.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
So they get a.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Telegram from the Nazis saying, quote order from German authorities
arrests Petois dangerous lunatic.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
So then they're like, okay, he's not a German. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
So in his other apartment they find it abandoned, but
they find large amounts of chloroform, digitalis and other poisons,
in addition to large amounts of unusual medical remedies. So
they find a man who had gone to him to

(44:11):
Patois to escape but had ended up changing his mind,
and he said Patois had offered him passage to South
America for twenty five thousand dollars. So then while they're
going through that basement with all the body parts, they
find the remains of the two drug addicts that we're
going to testify against him in that narcotics case. And
now they know there's it's the proof that those witnesses

(44:34):
were murdered and that this guy was not being a
noble Frenchman that was trying to cite their assistance. Then
they get his brother, Maurice, and Maurice immediately cracks and
is like, yep, we delivered quick climb to this apartment.

Speaker 3 (44:49):
We also.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
His wife, Georgette was arrested on suspicion of aiding him,
and his accomplices Nesodetch and Albert and Simon Neuhausen confess
that they helped remove up to forty suitcases from the house.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Why does anyone need forty suitcases is what they should
have asked.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
If you have fifty bodies, you're gonna need at least
forty suitcases. So then the investigation comes to a halt
because the invasion of Normandy happens. So everyone's like, sorry
about this insane, like multiple murderer, We've got to go.
So for seven months, Patois hides with his friends.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
He grows a beard, changes.

Speaker 2 (45:36):
His appearance, he has all these different aliases.

Speaker 3 (45:40):
Friends.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
Well, I mean, but he told the friends that he
was fighting for the Front Resistance I believe. Yeah, so
they were like, yeah, hide him here, and you know,
it was that whole story. The Paris police rose up
against and the and the citizens and the resistant rose
up against the German troops in Paris and Nazis occupying France.
That's when Petois changes his name to Anri Valerie and

(46:05):
he joins the French forces of the Interior, becomes a
captain in charge of counter espionage and prisoner interrogations, and
basically is in the mix with the resistance for real.

Speaker 3 (46:19):
Yeah. So then somewhere in that time, his defense.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Lawyer for that narcotics trial that he got off on
gets that lawyer gets a letter from Petois saying that
there was an article in a newspaper called Resistance that
was all about Patois and what he.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
Did, and he so he took the time to send.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
His lawyer, his old lawyer, a letter saying, look, that
article is all lies. So now the police know he's
still in France. So there's a man hunt across France
to find him, or across Paris, i should say. But
he ends up participating in the manhunt for himself as
Entre Valerie.

Speaker 3 (47:01):
Oh my god, which is fucking rade.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
Okay, so's he's recognized finally at the Paris metro station
on October thirty first, and he's arrested. Among his possessions
were a pistol he had over thirty thousand francs on him,
and fifty sets of identity documents, which were a lot
of them probably victims obviously suitcasicity. It was like those

(47:27):
families at Lax are just stacking them up, like where
are you going and what are you fucking bringing?

Speaker 3 (47:32):
You're a bad packer.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
You can buy anything anywhere. There's a CVS on the
remotest island. What are you doing? Yes, okay, he's put
on death row. He says he's innocent, and then he's
a great fighter for the resistance, and he also says
that he found the pile of bodies at that apartment
in February of nineteen forty four. He assumed that they

(47:57):
were all collaborators that the members of his network had killed.

Speaker 3 (48:02):
So he was just like, well, there's leave him there then, Yeah,
that's only right, that's not my problem.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
Well, the police look into all his stories about his
time with the resistance and all the freedom fighting that
he did, found out he had no friends in any
of the major resistance groups. There was no proof of
any of the exploits that he claimed, like booby trapping
all of Paris.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
And.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Most of the groups that he named never existed in
the first place. So the anti fascist Spaniards he was
talking about all made up. So they eventually charged him
with twenty seven murders for profit, and he basically took
these people for an estimated two hundred million francs. So

(48:44):
he goes on trial March nineteenth, nineteen forty six. He's
facing one hundred and thirty five criminal charges altogether, and
his lawyer, Rene.

Speaker 3 (48:54):
I'm trying to bug myself, is.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
Up against a prosecution team that's the state prosecut plus
twelve civil lawyers, all hired by the relatives of.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
The victims that are just like, go fucking get.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Him, and he he basically tried to stay in court
that the victims were collaborators or double agents, like they
deserve to die, or that they were living in South
America under new names, and that they're all fools whatever.
He did admit to killing nineteen of the twenty seven
victims in his house, but he claimed they were Germans

(49:29):
and collaborators. His lawyer attempted to make him look like
a resistance hero, but nobody, the judge, the jury, nobody
bought it. He's so he ended up being convicted of
twenty six council murders, sentenced to death, and on May
twenty fifth, after a stay of a few days because
there was a problem with the mechanism in the guillotine,

(49:51):
he was beheaded. Oh my god, that's our guy, Marcel Petois.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
I want to see a photo of him. Wow.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
That was great.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
Thank you me, Kim.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
Okay, we're back, Karen. Any updates.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
We don't have any updates, but we did get a
really interesting email in twenty nineteen. The subject line of
the email was episode ninety eight info about Marcel Petois,
German versus Nazi and thank you, okay, And it says
Karen Georgia and Livestock. This is a little bit long,
but it's kind of worth it. It says, I'm writing

(50:31):
about episode ninety eight, in which Karen covered French doctor
and serial killer Marcel Patois. In preparing for a family
trip to Paris. In twenty seventeen, I became an avid
researcher of the best places to visit. For a history
and architecture lover like myself, I came across a book
in my local library called Death in the City of Light,
the serial killer of Nazi occupied Paris. What a dark,

(50:54):
twisted tale and man. The book provided location maps in Paris,
including the house that neighbors were burning, which led to
Petois being found out and arrested. The book also covers
his meetings with specific victims and how he manipulated them
to come to his home in the first place. It
also covers the trial of Petois, which was one of
the most frustrating reads I've ever had to get through.

(51:16):
He was absolutely nuts and tried to dominate the courtroom throughout.
Though through his own words and statements one sees what
a controller and a lunatic he actually was in its day.
The trial was very much like paparazzi frenzied trials of
notorious or famous people. For today, it was a gawker's
paradise and he was at the center of all of it,
enjoying the limelight. Karen mentioned a documentary about the case,

(51:38):
but that she had never been able to find it,
so I wanted to share the book title for anyone
who wants to know more. And as an aside, there
was a question raised in this episode about whether it
was correct to say France was occupied by Germany or Nazis.
The German state was Nazi led during World War Two,
it would be correct to say German occupied, as Germany
was led and represented by the Nazi Party, which carried

(52:00):
out the horrific Nazi agenda we all know today. Sad
for the German people, but there is a huge cautionary
tale for the world about extremism, gullibility and nationalism that
we shouldn't water down.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
And then they say this is not a correction of
what Karen said, just in a reminder that the people
of a country, no matter if they agree with the
controlling party in their government or not, share the responsibility
for what their leaders do. We are experiencing that in
this country right now. This is from twenty nineteen.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
That's crazy.

Speaker 3 (52:29):
We're experiencing that in this country right now with the
immigrant camps being set up to house women and children
trying to come to America. These are American immigrant camps,
and as such, we are all responsible for what is
happening in those places in our name at the hands
of our current leaders. No less was true for the
German state during World War Two. Thank you guys for

(52:50):
doing your thing. Really enjoy it.

Speaker 1 (52:51):
Wow, I get that's from twenty nineteen.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
I mean, what a nightmare.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
You know, there's now a children's detention center in Texas
just for immigrant children by themselves. A nightmare idea. And
there's been a bunch of people that have like dedicated
you know, their time and their voices to like trying
to get it shut down. But it's like this, this
government that we are living under, people, this is what

(53:16):
fascism is.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
It's such a good point of like, yeah, you know,
I would have been like, well, it's not too occupied,
but yeah, it's German occupied. And this is why you
have to vote, is because whatever represents us represents the entirety.
That's right. You can't just do the Red States.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
This is like everybody has to let go of those
old Chevy commercials that used to make us feel so
good in the summertime because this is not baseball, hotdogs,
apple pie, and Chevrolet anymore. This shit is ugly and
it's bad, and it's getting worse by the day.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
It's evil. It's evil.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
It's so bad.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
Well, that's what this podcast is for. That's what we're
here for.

Speaker 3 (53:53):
That's what the rewind is here for.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Because we've been since this fucking podcast started, We've been
talking about this.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
Yeah, well all right, it's time to get into Georgia's
story right now.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
It's true crime.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
What choice?

Speaker 3 (54:07):
Where do you want to look? Right now?

Speaker 1 (54:08):
You quick play on a podcast called My Favorite Murder.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
So yeah, you're in it for the long haul. This
is Georgia's story about the murder of Peggy het Trick.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
Over back from a little break And when I was peeing,
I looked it up and the instagram with the melting
lovestick is called watch It Melt Sweet Check.

Speaker 3 (54:31):
That's like the whole account.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
Uh huh, yes, yeah, it's pretty great. Okay, So we
talked about this recently. This is the story of the
murder of Peggy Hettrick, remember her, let's you will, okay.
In the morning of February eleventh, nineteen eighty seven, a
bicyclist is investigates what he thinks as a mannequin laying

(54:53):
the field in Fort Collins, Colorado. What it actually is
is the bob of thirty seven year old Peggy Hettrick.
And she said her purse is still slung around her shoulder,
belongings are inside. There's a half smoked cigarette and a
pool of blood nearby. There's a trail of blood one

(55:14):
hundred feet from her body to the small pool on
the curb. Her braw blouse and black coat had been
pushed up above her breasts, and her underwear and jeans
are pulled down to her knees.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
I remember you know this conversation now, yes, yes, yes, wow, okay.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Yeah. At the scene, investigators collect two hairs they're not
her hair, and thirteen fingerprints from her person aren't hers,
and they they also.

Speaker 3 (55:44):
Okay, so they theorized that Peggy's killer.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
They think that they stabbed her as she was walking
along the road right by where next to the field,
you know, because she had been killed with one stab
wound and then picked her up and perhaps by the
wrists and dragged her into the field.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
That's what they think happened.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
They also there was also twenty eight footprints going around
and they poured. They took photos of all of them,
but they only plastered eight of them. So according to
the corner, she died from a single stab wound in
the upper left back. Wasn't that crazy, Like one stab wound,
she like died pretty quickly from it. Yeah, It's almost
like he knew where to stab you someone to kill them.

(56:26):
She likely died early in the morning. Her body had
been sexually mutilated.

Speaker 3 (56:31):
Here we go.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
There's a precise, a precise removal of her nipple and areola,
as well as a female circumcision, including what one doctor
described as a partial volvectomy. Oh no, yeah, a procedure
that requires high skill and quality surgical equipment to perform.
So the knife she was stabbed with is not the

(56:54):
same tool that was used to sexually mutilate her. Jesus Christ,
I know, God, I feel like I'm numb to this
shit now A little bit.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
Well, it seems to happen a lot. Yeah, I mean
it's not. I think that's part of it. It happens
all the time, and people pretend like it's some kind
of distant, creepy crazy thing, and it's like no, pretty
much happens.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
All the time, all the time. Yeah's horrifying.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
Yeah, so there's neat cuts. It's all like that. Blah blah. Okay,
So let's talk about Peggy. She's a small woman, about
one hundred and fifteen pounds, flaming red hair, really pretty woman.
She worked at a department store and described by friends
as fun, loving, artistic. She was kind of an Annie
Hall type, and she was working on her a novel

(57:39):
in her free time about diamond smugglers.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
So it's fiction. Sounds fucking fun. I wish I could
read that.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
So after leaving work at around nine pm the night
before February tenth, nineteen eighty seven, she is locked out
of her apartment because her friend who she is letting
stay there, fell the fuck asleep and she couldn't wake
her up, and so she goes to a couple local
bars and she by about twelve thirty she's at the
Prime Minister Pub and grill, and she runs into her

(58:10):
sometimes boyfriend, Matt Zohner. He's a local color salesman. He's
there with another woman, but they hug and kiss and talk.
He offers her a ride home, but she ends up
leaving by herself at one point fifteen in the morning.
So six hours and less than five hundred yards later,
her body is found.

Speaker 3 (58:29):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
Yeah, So then the investigators are canvassing the area.

Speaker 3 (58:34):
There's some houses nearby, there's some trailers.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
They're talking to people saying if they saw anything, especially
the people whose windows face the field, and they they
talk to the father of a fifteen year old high
school student named Timothy Masters because he and the father
says that he watched his son leave for school that
morning and deviate from his usual path across the field
and stop at something and then keep.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
Walking to his normal his normal root.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
So they live in a mobile home about one hundred
feet from where Peggy's body had been found. So tim
Timothy's pulled out a class and the lieutenant Jim Roderick,
he's running the show. He's like in charge of the investigation.
They interrogate fifteen year old Timmy the for ten hours.

Speaker 3 (59:19):
He's alone. He said that the reason he didn't call
the police.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
He had seen the body that morning, but he thought
it was a mannequin, he thought, And then later he
was like, that was weird. There's something wrong with someone
playing a prank on me. Like he didn't get it. Yeah,
you know, it was just fifteen fifteen, can you And
it's like that's the thing of like your brain doesn't
want it to be a mannequin.

Speaker 3 (59:43):
So like, or to be a body. So But throughout
the day.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
It seems like he was kind of figuring out what
was going on in his mind.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
And if you came upon a dead body of a
mutilated not just a stabbed woman, but like a terribly
mutilated woman, I think that would put you into what
kind of trauma state?

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
Yeah, shock mode?

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
Yeah, where you would And also this wasn't the time
of cell phone, since it was a while ago. Yeah,
so he would have to keep walking to school to
tell anybody. Yeah, and then maybe by the time he
got there, he was like, couldn't deal with Like, I couldn't.

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
Talk about it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
And I saw a photo of the crime scene. She
kind of does look like a mannequin, Like she's so pale,
her red hair. You know, it's just like and the guy,
you know, the adults who ended up calling the police.
The bicyclist thought it was a mannequin too, and he's
an adult, so you know, it's not out of the
romal possibility. But he says he's innocent as fuck. They

(01:00:39):
administer a lie detector test.

Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
The results were inconclusive, of course, but he is on
the top of the suspect list because he just because
he didn't tell police about the body, right, So they
search his home.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
They searched the sinks for blood, they searched the school locker,
they search the his clothes, the sleeper's blood and anything.
And instead they fine and confiscate twenty two hundred pages
of writing and violent art work.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
That Timothy had in his bedroom that he saved. He
was kind of like a metipiculous saver and saved all
of his journals and shit. And they let's see in
his bedroom, backpack in school locker, and he has a
knife collection and pornography and this is the eighties and
that's not okay. Yeah, so there's no trace of Peggy's

(01:01:31):
blooder hair at all anywhere, including on his clothes and
the knife collection.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
But police are convinced it's him and these drawings. I'm
sure you've seen them. They're like fifteen year old metal
head nineteen eighty seven boy drawings, and they're fucked.

Speaker 3 (01:01:45):
Up for sure. Yes, they're definitely fucked up.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
Yes, I've seen like there's a some kind of a
twenty twenty type of thing. Yeah, you show you all
of them, But it's also that thing where so is
like metal art. Yes, fucked up was like Eddie from
the Iron Maiden album covers. It's one of the scary
I remember seeing that album cover for the first time
at the.

Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
Record store and shitting a brick.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
It was like it's a skeleton with long white haired
It's like long fingernails coming at you.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
It was part of that part of it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
Yes, you're supposed to be like it's fucked up and scary,
and you know, I'm brave.

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
And he's just like, you know, he's like this kind
of loner, skinny kid, like long messy hair, not a
lot of friends. His mom had died four years earlier,
lived in a trailer with his dad, so he sounded
like he was kind of a drifter cut type of kid.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Probably got bullied and beaten, had getting the shit beaten
out of him constantly.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Right, So this shit he was drying, you know, skeletons
with knives and like and a lot of like shit
against women too, Like it's not pretty for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
Yeah, it would just be interesting if they like searched
all the lockers and pulled out art. It's all the
boy art, right finding it's there's not a draw me
like one of your French lady's situation happening in high school. Yeah,
when you're your most like fucked up and unhappy and
uncomfortable totally.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
Yeah, So okay, So acquaintance of Peggy said that she
uh that Peggy had recently been concerned over someone she
had been dating. They ruled out her ex, her sometimes
boyfriend that she had seen the night before because a
woman said that, you know, she had gone home with him.
But this dude, Broderick, Jim Broderick, the fucking lieutenant, is

(01:03:31):
laser focus on. He is like convinced, even though there's
a lot of other investigators that are like, well, we don't,
they don't think it's him, but he is like doesn't
really look into anyone else, so Timothy masters, but they
don't have enough to arrest him, so he grows up,
he joins the Navy, sales around the world, becomes an
aircraft mechanic. He never has any discipline or problems or

(01:03:53):
violent offenses. He's honorably discharged from the Navy. Okay, then
the fast forward to nineteen eighty six. This detective Jim
Broderick asks a forensic psychologist in San Diego named Read
Maloy to study Timothy Master's you know, fifteen year old
fucked up artwork. Yeah, and he'd kind of had a

(01:04:15):
weird reputation. This guy, Read Malloy, he is an expert
witness on sexual homicides. He thinks that you can read
a person's personality into this artwork, which is kind of
debated in the field. And he even disclosed that he
was himself had sexually sadistic fantasies.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
Oh oh, so this guy's problematic hold on a second, Yeah,
that's that's not good.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
No, Well, but maybe he was saying that like it's
human that kind of goes against what his thing is
because it's like, well, basically are you is the argument
that everybody has them? Or like it's self expression, because
then you can't like focus in and be like this.

Speaker 3 (01:04:54):
That's like he wouldn't understand it unless you had it too. Yes, yeah,
but also it's art.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
Self expression is you know, that's what art is for, right,
and you really need to especially when you don't.

Speaker 3 (01:05:08):
Think anyone else is going to see it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
Yes, it's private and you're like, you're trying to work
some shit out.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
Yeah, well I don't know anyway. Fuck man, No, it's
sucked up.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
So this dude, read Malloy, analyzes the writing and artwork
extensively and concludes without ever having spoken to him to
Timothy and Master says that he that some of the
drawings represented Masters reliving the crime. So he was like,
see this drawing where it looks kind of like they're

(01:05:38):
dragging a body, that's him reliving the crime. And then
there's this one there's like it's this weird triangle with
a stab wound in it, and it looks it looks
like a stab wound for sure, but this dude is like, oh,
it's a vagina and he's cutting into it and it
matches perfectly with the actual crime of Peggy's vagina getting mutilated.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
So they think that he went to school, then went
home and immediately started scribbling in tons and tons of notebooks.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
No, they think some of the drawings are from after
the murder, before they got the notebooks, but most of
them are before.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
But these ones, like the fantasy right, okay, right, so
the strangle one was from before, but this other one
was from after.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
It doesn't make sense, okay. And it's funny too, because I.

Speaker 1 (01:06:28):
Watched I watched the Cold Case episode about this and
it's before.

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
So this dude is like, it's totally him, He's the killer.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
And in August nineteen, Andy Age, based on this Jim
Brodder goes to California and arrests twenty seven year old
Jim Masters for the murder murder of Peggy Hettrick based
solely on this evidence and circumstantial evidence. And twelve years later, yeah,
Jesus can over a thousand pages of Timothy Master's violent
artwork or admitted to evidence, including the vagina drawing, and

(01:06:59):
so so at the end of the.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
Trial they held up like a close up photo of Peggy's.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
Wounds on her vagina next to a blown up photo
of this triangle drawing and said it's chilling. They're the
same thing, and even the like, it's just so creepy
and then they also show it's the thing of like
I think in some cases, I mean, I've heard about
you can't show that many horrifying photos.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
Of the body at the trial because it brings an
emotional response to the jury.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
So instead of you know, thinking about the facts, or
they're seeing these photos and you know, so they had
like photo after a photo of what happened are so.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Then they're just like they it doesn't matter if it's
him or not. They just want this right, well, they
want to get this like solved and out.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
Of their right or it's almost like and I think
this happened too where it was like some people think
where it was like.

Speaker 3 (01:07:54):
They weren't sure he did it, but they saw this stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:07:57):
Over and over again and they were like, well, what
if it is and we we know what happened, we
can't let them go right. So so those sum jurors
had doubts about his guilt. His drawings and writings were
cited by the jury members as compelling evidence against him,
and he is he has found guilty and sentenced to

(01:08:17):
life in prison.

Speaker 3 (01:08:18):
Okay, blah blah blah blah blah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
In two thousand and four cuts two thousand and four
that's ninety nine. Two thousand and four, Timothy Masters mounts
an appeal on the grounds of ineffection and effective council
and that he gets a new defense team. They begin
investigating case, and they discover that evidence, including the hair
that was found on het Trick that wasn't his, that
wasn't Timothy's hair, and photographs of the fingerprints found in

(01:08:44):
her purse were all missing and they had never been
turned over to the defense or no, no, they're missing now.

Speaker 3 (01:08:49):
Yes. So during the two thousand.

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
And blah blah blah blah, so they allege the prosecutors
withheld evidence about links to another case that happened in
the Fort Collins area about doctor Richard Hammond, who was
a potentially a suspect. Let's fucking talk about doctor Richard Hammond,
Everyone's favorite. So and let's go back to nineteen ninety five,
seven years after the murder of Peggy. Doctor Richard Hammond

(01:09:14):
is an ise surgeon in the Fort Collins area. He's
arrested for secretly filming women's genitalia I copied and paste
that obviously including his patients, and in his own home
through fake ventilation grates in his downstairs bathroom, so he
put fucking video in the toilet, and they said video

(01:09:36):
after video, there were these highly calibrated shots zooming into
the vaginal area of women in his toilet. They were
extreme close ups and they were almost microscopic. Investigators also
found that Hammond kept thousands of dollars worth of pornography
hidden in a locked office and a storage shed in town,
indicating an obsession with female genitalia. He also had a

(01:09:57):
secret bank account, secret apartment, and a secret identity, and
as a surgeon, he of course had the skills and
equipment to perform the precision mutilation that was found on
her body, so it was it could have been a
exact o knife or a razor blade. And in nineteen
eighty seven, Hammond's bedroom window overlooked the location of where

(01:10:20):
Peggy Hettrick's body was discovered, and he was home the
morning after the murder, despite his usually scheduled surgeries on
that day of the week, So that was out a
character for him then, but no follow up investigation was
ever done after that because he committed suicide several days
after his arrests and Jim Broderick didn't look into it,

(01:10:42):
didn't look at a connection. Maybe you know he maybe
Peggy had been a client or a patient of his,
who knows. And another weird twist, two weeks after Peggy's murder,
a woman who was red haired and kind of looked
like Peggy who worked at the Prime Minister bar where
Peggy had last been seen. She's out front of the
bar selling tickets and here's someone behind her and a

(01:11:04):
man with quote a bodybuilder for Seke was glaring at her.
He pulled an icicle from behind his back and made
several stabbing motions in the air. What and she said
he had a bodybuilder physique. Doctor Hammond was a bodybuilder.

Speaker 3 (01:11:18):
Sorry, he an icicle from where I don't know, I
guess the roof Jesus, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
Yeah. So it was argued that it couldn't actually have
been done the mutilation because it was so precise in
the middle of a field in the dark like that,
So it actually maybe happen somewhere else.

Speaker 3 (01:11:35):
And then there was no way a fifteen year old
could perform that surgical procedure.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):
Okay, you'd think that that would be even though you're
saying that the lead detective was like on you know
only which I know that happens.

Speaker 3 (01:11:50):
But there's those kinds of things where it's still like
a logic problem. Yeah, a lot of it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
Yes, this is a person that's like doing violent art
and doing upsettingly violent art where there's an there's clearly
a problem that has not been addressed in any way.
But then you're just adding all this like fifteen is
like he can't drive yet, and he's the skinny little kid.
He like, carrying a person's body on his own isn't

(01:12:17):
doesn't make any sense. There's no blood evidence anywhere on him.
It's like the circumstantial evidence does not stand up to
the fucking evidence that it's not him except for and
again it's what you're saying is the effect of like
pictures on people and what you can read into pictures
and what pictures make you feel, and how the power

(01:12:37):
of that and then attributing what that power is and saying,
I know what you meant when you drew this.

Speaker 1 (01:12:43):
It makes sense in your head. Well, so I watched
the Cold Case Files episode, so his case is going
to get overturned, but before they make the Cold Case episode,
as if when he gets sent to jail he did it.
The end period, Cold Case over so the cold case
isn't up to date. You don't mean cold case.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
The TV shows are blonde actress Cold Case Files. Okay, okay, sorry,
I wasn't to know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
I'm glad you said that. And I'm like, I based
this all off of Cold Case Files, Cold Case. So
they're so they actually the prosecutors are interviewed in this
because they're like, yeah, look what we did.

Speaker 3 (01:13:18):
We solved it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
And and the one woman who is the prosecutor was like,
I saw the drawings and I thought I got it.
You know, it's like I got a chill and I
knew he did it. It's that ship yes of being
able to watch that from a place of knowing he
did it is fucking creepy because it's like it's totally
in her gut.

Speaker 2 (01:13:36):
She thinks he did it based on those looking at
those photos, based on surface things. And that's which is
how so much crime gets prosecuted or ignored, because then
if you're also a clean cut, rich guy, then you're not.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
You're not. It's not considered total.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
That's beyond the imagination because we all know who looks right,
and we know who's responsible for things in societ and
then who's who does bad things, and that's you needed
to keep it that simple, yea, to not freak out
every day.

Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
This is bad, this is good in your little world
that makes total sense, and that's not like that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:11):
Nuance is a man.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
If anything else, if nothing else, I mean, let this
podcast be the place where we say psychopaths are real
good at dressing up like the good guy.

Speaker 3 (01:14:20):
That's the whole idea.

Speaker 1 (01:14:22):
Yeah, and path you're not going to see crazy on
the surface and someone who's really fucking good at it
and smart shit. Okay, but but so oh and also,
her body appeared really clean, and an expert later told
the legal team that a spongeline appeared to run down
the side of her body like she had been sponged off.

Speaker 3 (01:14:40):
Oh, because there's like no blood on her body, even
though she'd been stabbed in the back and with that stub.

Speaker 1 (01:14:47):
I think there was blood on her, you know, in
the back, but no blood on the front of her body.

Speaker 3 (01:14:52):
No blood on our genitals. Yeah wow, So well then
it would have had to have been cleaned up.

Speaker 1 (01:14:57):
Yeah, So they say that her body must have been washed.
And they also tried to drag a woman the same
size as Peggy threw the field, and it just can't
be done with one person the size of Timothy, the.

Speaker 3 (01:15:12):
Size of a freshman in high school or sophomore.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
Yeah, but he's a skinny little kid, Okay, okay, So
the arrest, so the arrest of doctor Hammond and his
subsiquent suicide is information that's withheld from the dude who
was reading who thinks he could fucking tell by the drawing,
this doctor Malloy, So he was never told about any

(01:15:35):
of the circumstances around, right, So that's withheld from him
and other experts. And the FBI was non informed of
this case either to reconsider their profiling of Masters from
nineteen eighty seven, so they were never told that there
could be another suspect.

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
And so this doctor Malloy's fucking pissed.

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):
At them for that, and he's like, I wouldn't have
testified against I wouldn't have testified for you guys if
I'd known this. So in January two thousand and eight,
advanced DNA testing is done in Europe on the clothes
of Peggy, and scientists found DNA on the cuffs of
her blouse and on the waistment of her underwear. That
didn't match Timothy Masters and some of the genetic material,

(01:16:16):
all of.

Speaker 3 (01:16:17):
It left by skin cells. So it's a new touch.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
DNA craziness is match to Peggy's a long time on again,
off again boyfriend, the dude she was at sough at
the bar, which might be kissing him. Yeah, so it
might have been, but it just would have made it
that he's the focus, not Timothy, but of course, but
he has it doesn't sound like a really tight alibi,
but he has.

Speaker 3 (01:16:40):
An alibi, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:16:41):
So on January twenty second, two thousand and eight, a
Colorado judge vacates Timothy Master's conviction and orders him released immediately.
And in June twenty eleven, he says he's no longer
no longer a suspect in the murder, and he's completely exonerated.

Speaker 3 (01:16:57):
And how old is he now?

Speaker 1 (01:16:58):
I don't know how old he is, but he he
spent ten years in jail, so he was arrested when
he was twenty seven, so he's, you know, fuck almost
ten years, like nine and a half years of jail,
I know. So the prosecutors are disciplined in the case,
and fucking Lieutenant Jim Broderick is like getting some crazy.

(01:17:20):
He's indicted on eight counts of felony first degree perjury
for material of false statements he made with the arresting conviction,
but the fucking three year statute of limitations for perjury
is gone. So even though this kid spent ten fucking
years and you can't get that back, his statute of limitations.

Speaker 3 (01:17:38):
I hate statue of limitations. Okay, but then he's indicted again.

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
They're like, no, dude, nine counts this time, but those
charges are also dismissed.

Speaker 3 (01:17:48):
But he resigns, I would hope.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
Yeah, So the county settles with Timothy Masters for Initially,
he basically gets almost ten million.

Speaker 3 (01:17:59):
Dollar holy yeah, million dollars a year for going to jail. Yeah, fuck,
take it or leave it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:05):
No no, no, no, no, no no no. In your voice,
it almost sounded like that's easy. Well I think that
was passing through my head. But I mean, obviously, no
fucking way.

Speaker 3 (01:18:16):
Of course. It's a living hell, of course. So I
don't know anyone that would.

Speaker 4 (01:18:21):
No, there's nobody, right, I mean unless people have been
like no, I like, my cousins are all on the inside,
and I'll be fine if you had some kind of
guarantee of protection you were the head of some jail
gang or some shit like that, or like you know
those all those stories of like the when like the
the Mafia guys go to jail and.

Speaker 3 (01:18:39):
They have like their own you know, they have their
own lazy boy chair, and either I don't even have
a lazy boy chair. I'm not in jail.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
I must be thinking of like, oh, good Fellows where
they're like making making pasta and.

Speaker 3 (01:18:50):
Stuff like that. I mean, I bet it's like that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:53):
For some people, but I bet it's a real It
really drops off if you.

Speaker 3 (01:18:57):
Don't have that on your three you're like, how this
might have been a mistake. I could have maybe made
money like the lottery. Yeah, But which is also why
we all have.

Speaker 2 (01:19:06):
To remember there's a lot of things going on in
the world, so this isn't This is nobody's priority right now.
But for profit jails is the most evil concept it
and they have to be they have to be gotten
rid of. Like that idea is what's going to drive
us into a dystopian future, the idea that they would
make money of keeping people in jail, which is already

(01:19:29):
hellish for most people, and already there are so many
people in jail that like this guy, how many stories
are this of black men?

Speaker 1 (01:19:38):
Yeah, and you're completely right about sucking just the basic
conflict of interest that you make money, the more people
are in jail.

Speaker 3 (01:19:46):
The more people aren't. It's so wrong. You can't get
past that. There's no argument past that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:51):
I actually won a fight with my uncle at dinner
one time because we started talking about it and he's like, no,
I think, and then I was just like this and this,
we're just like you simply it's already happened in a
lot of cases, you know where obviously where people are
like it's either people are on the take or they
know that, you know, they get certain cases through where
it's like, don't even listen.

Speaker 3 (01:20:11):
They don't have right representation or whatever. In Boom boom boom.

Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
It's just a nightmare. If you ever get a chance
to vote against four. Yeah, just educate yourself on that. Yeah,
because God, please.

Speaker 1 (01:20:24):
God know, it's a nightmare. It doesn't make any sense. Oh,
this whole world. Yeah, it's a fucking mess anyway. Yeah,
so he got all that money, but we still don't
know who killed Kenny.

Speaker 3 (01:20:36):
It's a cold case.

Speaker 1 (01:20:38):
And they said they're looking into it, but I haven't
been able to find any updated articles, any fucking information.

Speaker 3 (01:20:45):
I think.

Speaker 2 (01:20:46):
When you and I talked about this, we also talked
about comparing it to the movie The River's Edge, which
is a movie from the late eighties.

Speaker 3 (01:20:52):
I believe, Yeah, I think so, and.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
It's one of the most disturbed. When I saw it,
I was like a teenager and it was so disturbing.

Speaker 3 (01:20:59):
But it was that was like.

Speaker 2 (01:21:01):
This that kind of era where it was like, teens
today are becoming very disaffected and no one cares and
there's an apathy. And it's not that that movie is
trying to say that specifically, but it was almost like
this that was a cultural thing in that Tipper Gore
era of like your music is bad and your rap
music and all.

Speaker 1 (01:21:19):
These kind of people, Yeah, actually satanists, these teenagers are.

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):
Yeah, the satanic panic whole thing. And so instead of
these days where we're slowly learning that it's like a
trauma response, whereas like it's something like that happens to
you as a child, you would never know how to
deal with it and you could completely be in shock,
literal physical shock for days. On top of the fact

(01:21:44):
that boys are taught especially if he was being raised
only by his father. You're not allowed to have feelings.
He couldn't go to school and start crying. He couldn't,
you know what I mean, Like he's supposed to either
man up, you know, like his choices were so limited
in dealing.

Speaker 3 (01:22:00):
With that problem.

Speaker 1 (01:22:01):
And from what I could see when he's talking about
why he didn't call the police and what he thought
it was a mannequin, is that throughout the morning he
is slowly starting.

Speaker 3 (01:22:11):
To realize what it was.

Speaker 1 (01:22:14):
It's like he needs to get there, so maybe he
would have called the police later in the day. YEA
once he kind of dawned on him because he was
like contemplating, is like I got on the bus and
I was like, is someone playing a trick on me?
That looked like a man and someone trying to prank me?
Like he didn't understand.

Speaker 3 (01:22:28):
What it was.

Speaker 1 (01:22:29):
And I think that that's I think your Yeah, your
brain won't say there's a dead body. It says there's
a mannequin, Which is why we're always like, it's not
a mannequin. It's because we can't fucking even deal with
the fact that something might be a dead body. Your
brain is our immediately, mannequin, it's not real.

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
To explain this away so that this panic doesn't rise
in me, all of my systems go berserve, right for sure.
And also then once some some that piece of information
does go it like like if he did see her genitals,
that would have that would have trottized him so terribly totally.
It doesn't matter what fucking some kid draws in a notebook,

(01:23:05):
the real thing is totally different. And if you listen
to heavy metal and you're trying to be a tough guy,
that's one thing. Or like if you're expressing your rage
for whatever reason, that's one thing. But seeing it in
real life must have been horrifying for this kid.

Speaker 1 (01:23:20):
Right, And the saddest part is that this whole charade
and this whole insane you know, laser focus on this
kid and these thirty fucking years of this case and
there's no but there's nobody held responsible for Peggy's murder,
and it's almost it's just not the focus anymore of

(01:23:41):
the case. Right, So if that hadn't been the case,
then maybe her murder would have been solved.

Speaker 3 (01:23:48):
Well, yeah, that's the problem with the ego coming into it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:53):
Yeah, but yeah, I think that's just I think like
they're learning better and better and faster and faster as
these things come up where it's like, well, it used
to be for years and hundreds of years, it was
all theory and it was whoever could kind of like,
you know, boss the situation the best they could and
make everybody feel safe again, because that's a lot of

(01:24:14):
it too. And then it's just like but now it's like,
here's a proof that didn't happen. Here's the proof that
you know, it's not that way and everyone has to
adapt and like, you know, it's the same thing of
cops not cooperating across county lines, where it's like, okay,
so you'd prefer to go unsolved then to have help.

Speaker 1 (01:24:33):
Well, it's like and everyone did that, including the prosecutors,
and one of the women female prosecutors, said that she
was embarrassed that she hadn't didn't have more info or
something like that. It's just, yeah, you can't, you can't
do that. And I think this is one of those
cases of like that they use as an example of
why you can't. You can't make the evidence fit your suspects.

Speaker 3 (01:24:58):
Yes, it has to be the other way around.

Speaker 2 (01:25:00):
Totally yeah, exactly right, which sorry because I know a
lot of people like went the other direction in after
a while. But that's the Stephen averything. There's no fucking
evidence that any of the stuff that Brendan Dassy was
like led to say.

Speaker 3 (01:25:14):
Yeah, they couldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
Find a drop of fucking blood in that in his
house where the one witness who got him convicted said
it happened. It didn't happen that way. Now, it could
have happened a different way, or something else could have
happened that nobody's been like talked about. But that one
thing didn't happen that convicted him.

Speaker 3 (01:25:36):
That's what's fucked up. Totally. Booh, it's all fucked Okay,
we're back. Are there any updates?

Speaker 1 (01:25:46):
There are?

Speaker 3 (01:25:46):
So.

Speaker 1 (01:25:46):
Timothy Masters wrote a book detailing his experience being tried, jailed,
and exonerated for Peggy's murder, titled Drawn to Injustice The
Wrongful Conviction of Timothy Masters. Peggy's brother, Tom Hetrick, has
remained vocal about his sister's case, making public appeals that
he hopes will reignite interest, and the Colorado's District Attorney's

(01:26:07):
office declared the case close and said that it would
require a full confession from the perpetrator to change that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:15):
Wow, well, now it's time for us to get into
good things.

Speaker 1 (01:26:17):
Of the week? Are there any I think? So? Okay?

Speaker 3 (01:26:20):
Good? Is this our ninety ninth episode? Is it eight ninety?
Thank god?

Speaker 1 (01:26:29):
So we have two weeks to find a fucking person
to have on the show or just think of a theme.

Speaker 2 (01:26:34):
Yeah, let's not add that on to the show.

Speaker 3 (01:26:38):
I was going to say, we're like, no, we have
to do something now, I know. I don't know why
I thought of that.

Speaker 1 (01:26:42):
What if we just don't do one hundred episode and
we just go right to one?

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):
Yeah, it's like the thirteenth floor, Yeah, the thirteenth Flora
Waistside School episode. What if we just didn't do one
hundred episode? Whatever you want, I don't care a shit.
I mean, I've already bought your present, but that's fine.

Speaker 1 (01:27:00):
Did you buy me something?

Speaker 3 (01:27:00):
No, you're excited. I got the joy on your face.
You have to get me something. Yes, now we have
to get each other something. Okay, ship, I guess I'm
part of that. I don't even think. Oh wait, I god,
I should give me a Lando Lakes trade back. I'm
saving nope. Ud Like fuck, it's already been on social media.
It is a gift that's been given to get you.

Speaker 2 (01:27:22):
Also, you have to one up Land of Lakes because
Land of Lakes was a rando I love you and
I love this reference gift.

Speaker 3 (01:27:30):
What did I get you in another specific Lando Lakes track?
Second late trade you can't have one tray active too.
I'm gonna go. I'm gonna find that lady.

Speaker 2 (01:27:40):
From whatever from the Florida City and get that lady
buck some jewelry box back.

Speaker 3 (01:27:46):
I'm gonna buy it for double the price I love it,
which is like nothing. That's a good one.

Speaker 1 (01:27:52):
Damn it.

Speaker 3 (01:27:53):
Thirty dollars. What am I gonna do? Yeah, we got it?
This is fun.

Speaker 2 (01:27:57):
This is uh. We have now have two weeks to
give one hundred one hundredth episode gifts. Okay, and it
has to be it would have to please a Martha
Stewart okay, and it would have to please somebody else
that would be on the other I guess a Snoop Dogg.
That's the other end of that.

Speaker 3 (01:28:14):
Sure, everyone has to okay.

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
And please all that comes. It would have to please,
got it, It would have to and we have to
use every word. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:28:25):
Can we leave some outes? Just too many?

Speaker 2 (01:28:27):
Can't I drop four words and change the meaning of
the sentence I'm saying?

Speaker 3 (01:28:30):
And have you follow along? What do you What made
you happy this week? Do you know I forgot it?
Was it your hangover?

Speaker 1 (01:28:38):
Not having a hangover? Well, I guess it didn't make
me happy. It made me cry, But I really liked it.
The thing I liked this week?

Speaker 3 (01:28:46):
You liked to cry? No, can I tell you what
I liked this week?

Speaker 1 (01:28:49):
That's what I want to hear. Okay, yeah, this week? Okay,
my therapist told me about a podcast that I need
to listen to, and now I'm fucking obsessed with it.

Speaker 3 (01:28:59):
Oh yes, that's right, My god, that's right. And it
made me sit in my car and ball and like,
listen to the end of one of the episodes. It's
called Where Should We Begin?

Speaker 1 (01:29:09):
And it's this therapist named Esther Perel and she it's
an anonymous couples therapy session that she records and you
and kind of she talks you through it too, and
it's like so beautiful and so well done, and even
if it's like a couple that you don't relate to,
it's these themes that make you kind of understand things

(01:29:30):
more and I like did one like vincid I went
to therapy this week. I was like, I heard this
and I want to do this, Like can we try this?
This is what I want? Like and it really it
was really beautiful and there. So there's an episode that
I fucking the one I cried from is called It's
called Trauma Doesn't Like to Be Touched, And it's just
such a beautiful episode. I think everyone should listen to it.

Speaker 2 (01:29:53):
I want to that you sent that one to me, right, Yeah,
you have to. I'm gonna listen to it, but I
keep going. Do I feel like bawling right now? No?

Speaker 3 (01:30:00):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:30:00):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:30:01):
Actually, I'm gonna save it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:03):
It's hard to be like you're going to cry your
eyes out and be really sad and moved.

Speaker 3 (01:30:07):
Yeah. I sometimes I like that, Yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (01:30:09):
It has to like you know what's good, that's good
for on a plane. I love to just do a
weird cry next to somebody on a plane because something
about that happens to me a lot when I travel,
something about taking off and landing, I just start crying,
like I'll start thinking about like, either I'm landing back
into my life and it's this, this and this, or
when I'm taking off, I'm like whatever, it's very transitional

(01:30:32):
maybe and it gets me emotional, and then I'll just
sit there like slowly wiping through while the person next
to me is like.

Speaker 3 (01:30:40):
Say anything, do you want pretzels? The lady's offering pretzels?
All right, what's yours?

Speaker 2 (01:30:47):
Did I already tell you about going to Hamilton? Did
I talk about it on the show Around to Hamton Bish?
I went to Hamilton when my friend this was like
two weeks ago, probably my friend and tell me my friend, Oh,
that's right, because okay, uh, my friend Stephanie, who we've
talked about a lot on this podcast, but she email

(01:31:09):
or texted me and was like, would if I got
Hamilton tickets? Would you want to go? And I was like,
I absolutely would love to. I just would never do
it on my own. So we went pantageous. Oh my god,
uh we were. I realized this is unfortunate. I realized
as I was sitting there, I needed one stronger glasses
prescription because I can't see in the glasses that I

(01:31:30):
have anymore far enough away, which was a bummer because
I was like squinting like a lunatic the whole time.

Speaker 3 (01:31:36):
But it was so fucking good.

Speaker 2 (01:31:39):
Now, how dumb am I to be saying that out
loud nine years after the fact. But when things like
that come out, I'm always the one that's like, I
bet it's not I bet I know better, I bet
I have a superior taste whatever, which is a lame
habit that I'm it's just left over Kurt Cobain issues.

Speaker 3 (01:31:56):
That I have from the nineties that I have to
let go of. But it really you reminded me how
much I love to be a fan. I love to
be a fan. It makes me feel so good.

Speaker 2 (01:32:05):
And when you watch something that is better than the hype,
and there's no there's nothing that's more hyped than Hamilton,
and it absolutely doesn't just live up to it, it
goes beyond it. And there was a Moment's people, this
is the oldest thing I could be saying, But there's
a moment in one of the lines in the musical

(01:32:26):
is immigrants get Things done. And there's so many people
in the theater that have already seen it at least once,
just for that part. They explode with cheers and then
immediately stop because they know they don't want to block
everybody's enjoyment of the rest.

Speaker 3 (01:32:38):
Oh my god, that's awesome. And it made me burst
into tears. It was like, immigrants get things done. It's
like and then it just stops. And it was like
and I went, yeah, I am too. I'm like you
generation away, I'm immigrants, that's me.

Speaker 2 (01:32:53):
It was the fucking coolest, best thing, best lyrics, coolest music,
best story, everything I'm going.

Speaker 3 (01:33:01):
Can I get? Is it hard to get tickets? It's
impossible to get tickets. I'm not going, but I would
love it. It just is so worth it.

Speaker 2 (01:33:08):
And you know, and there are people who are like
I think there are people who are trying to insinuate Oh,
if it's in LA, it's not gonna be as good
of a cast, right, yes? Or that well, those people
are high as kites. Because the people that I saw
at the Pantages, I don't know. I'm sure Linn Manuel
Moretta was amazing in it. I wouldn't have replaced any
of those people with anybody else. They were incredible. And

(01:33:30):
when people can sing in a theater, that's.

Speaker 3 (01:33:33):
Being my god, I just it is so much talent.
I love it so much. They fill up the whole room.
What an incredible skill. Yeah, that I'll never have I know.
Oh wait, we do that? Wait what we do that?
We just don't sing.

Speaker 2 (01:33:47):
That's right, that's the difference. It's a big fucking difference.
I'll tell you. You know what. You're right, so you know great,
just like groundbreaking revelation, Hamilton is good.

Speaker 3 (01:33:59):
Karen with the fucking update.

Speaker 1 (01:34:05):
Okay, we're back.

Speaker 2 (01:34:06):
Okay, So the title of this episode was grasp It,
of course, but if we had to rename it, we
could call it. Here's some pitches for a new name,
like the Big Sipper Himself, which is something I accused
Stephen of being while he was doing his coffee bit.

Speaker 1 (01:34:22):
That's clever. How about Surprise I'm a Psychopath?

Speaker 3 (01:34:27):
Or Austin France.

Speaker 1 (01:34:28):
How about au Revoir Motherfuckers.

Speaker 2 (01:34:32):
And the Remotest Island, which is when you were living
you're a bad packer, you can buy anything anywhere.

Speaker 1 (01:34:41):
Yeah, you're on the remotest Island. All right, well I
think we did it.

Speaker 2 (01:34:45):
That's so many choices. Okay, that was this week's episode
of rewind.

Speaker 1 (01:34:49):
Let's go back to the pod loft and let Dottie
say goodbye from twenty seventeen. Thanks for listening you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:35:00):
Thank you, Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Bye bye, Dottie.
What cookie?

Speaker 1 (01:35:09):
What cookie?

Speaker 3 (01:35:12):
Hm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:35:14):
Dotty Wait a second, that's time we've lot like guys
are getting another one.

Speaker 3 (01:35:21):
I know, I know, my angel

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Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 98: Grasp It

Episode Transcript

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Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

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