Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 99: Shin Kick - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
This is a show where we unlock the diary of
our old episodes with the key of our current feelings
plus case up.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
That was amazing, right, that's exactly what we're doing. Well,
that's the work of Alison Augusta. Oh, it's written right there.
It's written on this piece. I thought you just fucking
just blew that out of your brain.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Well that's good writing. But it's already there and it
sounds real natural.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Good acting. Okay, today, it's good reading. Today we're rewinding
episode ninety nine, which we named Shinkick shin kick. I
wonder why. Let's find out.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
This episode originally came out on December seventh, twenty seventeen.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
So let's get into the intro of episode ninety nine.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yes, do you hear the sounds of the podcast train
of the ghost podcast train?

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Oh yeah, hasn't been a ghost podcast train and five
of yours.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
That voice has gone totally into a southern bell area
that where it doesn't belong.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
I love it there. I want to stay there.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
It was supposed to be an old a minor forty
nine er. Yeah, but no, I've changed the scene.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
I don't care. I love it there great, Thank you
for your support. Welcome to my favorite murder. Yes, that's
Georgia hard start, that's Karen Kilgarriff, and we heard it.
Talk to you about a couple things called crimes and
true truthness.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
We love truthiness, we also enjoy talking about crimes.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
We'll never lie to you, well, well not get things right, yes,
not intentionally right, you're right, but we won't lie. But
there will be times when we deeply mislead you, uh huh.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
And we'll get you to say the wrong thing to
your friends and coworkers in a braggy voice.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
But they'll believe you because of your tone right and
your delivery. What we're telling you is it's all about
tone in in incantation.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
It's all about incantations, and it's all about spells, and
it's about having short term jobs that you don't have
to go back and see the same people after like
two weeks because you've lied to them so much.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
God, you meet one person in the in the eight
jobs you've had as a temp that's like you're the
best person you've.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Met, then they you will go on to marry that person,
right this is our guarantee to you. Look around the
office right now, is your eighth person, your future spouse
sitting near you? Pick them? You have fifteen seconds kick them,
pick them, kick them. I'd rather you kick them.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Kicking them is a great way to start the flirting.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
If you take it from me, seven year old Karen Kilgariff,
A good shin kick is There's no better way.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
To say I love you.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Karen has stuck with her flirting technique and she'll never
let it go.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
And we like your tenacity. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
I feel like it, like having a big butt is
gonna come into fashion.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
I just have to wait it out.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
There was a time where I thought no, kicking people
and shins would never come into fashion in terms of flirting, but.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
So many things have. Kicking in the shin's going to
be the only way we let anyone know.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
You to break through to say hey, you matter to me,
So prep yourself before you wreck your shins.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Do you have a really quick shout out to the
two ladies, please do the too fucking So. We just
finished our last weekend tour of twenty seventeen ye in
Saint Louis and Kansas City. It was a fucking amazing
fun weekend. Thanks you, guys, Thank you. We meet a
bunch of awesome people after the show at the meet
and greet, and everyone, like every fourth person comes up

(03:52):
in a shirt a homemade my favorite murder shirt that's
just funny and weird and shit that we don't remember
saying or is like something they drew with. It's always funny.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
There was two girls that had uh, stay sexy, don't
get murdered in wingedings?

Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yes that I And I was like, do people oh no,
it was yeah SSDGM wing edings yes, And I was like,
does anyone is anyone able to read wing ings off
the dome and then know what that says?

Speaker 1 (04:19):
And they were like not yet the best. That was great.
And then there were two other ladies and they had
shirts that just said promo code murder and I was
just like, you fucking subtle as fuck, badass bitches.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
That is so hard, Like it never even crossed our
minds that that was like a funny thing.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
The wing dings also included a bomb, yeah, because I
don't get I think a murdered must be bomb right, Well,
there was a bomb at the end, like the little
like cartoon.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
Bomb, but I thought those things only represented the letter.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, oh, so it wouldn't be murdered.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
But I just thought it was coincidental that a bomb
would be in there because it was s I think
it was the d was a bomb.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
I don't know, something in there. It doesn't matter. It
was still great. It was the bomb. It was great
and great looking. It was the bomb. Also someone in
Kansas City.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
By the time it got back to us, we got
so many nice presents and thanks to you guys, we
got tons of stuff. Backstage, there's a lot of people
that were worried, saying, we gave you something and then
they took it.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
Away from us. The shit you guys bring the theater
is like, you cannot bring that in here.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
You can't bring the severed head of Ted Bundy into
our theater.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Please don't. But it's actually a cake. Sorry you can't.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, so we got a whole table full. It was
like Christmas backstage for us. Somebody made a plastic baggy
filled with the best chocolate chip cookies I've ever had.
I think there was either rice crispies or cornflakes in them,
so they were really small and crispy. Whoever did that,
God bless you. I ate maybe six of them just
standing there talking.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
We got a full cheesecake. Oh my god, people went
crazy for that cheesecake. We got a haunted, scary clown.
The doll it's over there. Yeah. So these these lovely women,
these two women brought I don't know where the fuck
they must have found it, Like I think they set
a secondhand shop. Yeah, and they were like somehow they
sounded were like Karen and Georgia need this, Like what

(06:11):
does that say about us? It was like a raggedy
ann homemade clown doll from the seventies, knitted knitted that
like clearly whatever child got it was terrified of it
because it didn't look like it had been touched. No,
because one side of the clown's face, one side of
the clown was a happy clown. And then you turned
it over and we're going to post it, and it

(06:33):
was the most terrifying clown sad face you've ever seen, Yes,
with silver tears knitted onto the face. Steven, You're gonna
have to post it, okay. It is so upsetting.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
And also the best part was the way the girl
this was in Saint Louis.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
The way the girl walked up, holy it or a woman? Sorry,
I always do that. She held it like she was
also a ghost like. She walked up really weird and
stiff and kind of like really slowly, like.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
She had been looking forward to giving this to us
for two months and she was like, finally it's here.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yes, it was so good. Everything about the presentation, she
said to me. She goes turn it over. Yeah, and
then it was horror show. Yeah, so anyway you guys
will see it.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
Steven, I was going to say, wing Dings, the bomb
is m.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yep, all right, okay perfect? So am it just happens
to be a bomb. Look at that. It's so perfect
for us too. Wing Dings was made for us.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
Oh my god, wing dans ing things is like my
personal I didn't know I loved, like because I've loved
a lot of fonts m hm, mostly Times New Roman,
but wing Dings, you know, I only.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Use Georgia faon I know. But from here on out,
I'm doing my fucking bullet journal only in wing Dings
from now. Goodbye.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Oh it's so perfect, okay bye bye?

Speaker 1 (07:50):
Uh oh what do you have?

Speaker 2 (07:52):
I was gonna say a couple things about My Sweet Adrena,
because I was talking about it over the weekend with people.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
At the live show care because I don't.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
I really care so much, and I know that there
are people who like sped through reading it, and there
are people who responded of like I thought we were
going to do a when.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
We were doing a thing and then we were like nope, goodbye,
Just like if you're not if this is episode ninety nine,
if you don't know that by now, yeah, flake Garu.
Except for I really do.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
It's just taking me forever to read it because this book,
I've been taking it on two fronts, which is I
have the hard bound copy next to my bed like
an old widow, and then I eat out a box
of chocolates as I read it. And then I also
have the audio book, so I was listening to it
on the plane and I just would like to read.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
A couples that makes me so happy.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
Oh and also so many people have said, you have
to listen to teen Creeps because they have this great
episode on this, but I don't want to listen to
that until I'm done reading this book, so it doesn't
influence what I'm saying in any way sure, if that
makes sense. Okay, So I will definitely do that because
so many people have recommended it, even our own Steven.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
They did an episode of uh what episode was it?

Speaker 3 (08:59):
Like, Well, they've done my seater, Gina. But I was
just gonna say, I've been on the podcast twice and
it's been really fun.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
Lindsay and Kelly are really sweet and they they I mean,
the fact that they read a book every week to
do this podcast is incredible.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
What Oh, but it's it's mostly ya.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yeah, it's all like arl Stein and oh Christopher Pipe.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
Still this shit's yeah. Still, that's two hundred pages. How
do they do it? Read me a thing? Okay, we
have to write a book. Report. They have to read
a book.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
They have to read a book and talk about report
and report it.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
So I'm now in the part where she meets no,
I don't have his name written here, old, boring old Audrina.
She we're boring old. Second best, nobody likes you, Adrina.
You're not the dead one, therefore you're not as good, Audrina.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
Calm down.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
A second best. Second place is first loser versus the worst.
Second is the worst or second is worserr. She goes
into the forest, which she's constantly forbidden to go into.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
It's stupid.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
We've told you by her family how many times she's nine.
A quick reminder for people, she's nine years old. Then
she goes into the forest. There's a home in the
forest where and of course I'm picturing it full on
gingerbread house. And in the house is a boy I
think his name is Auden, and then his mother lives
there too, And she hides behind a tree and watches

(10:25):
him break the yard. And in the book it's talking
about like how he has a hot ass, and shit,
he's twelve years old.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
I swear to god, you see, Andrew.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
I mean, I think she's just laying out a lot
of like let's let's just break all these taboos.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
Then she gets caught being in the woods peeping, being
a peeping hog. Yeah, a nine year old stalker.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
And so her father comes storming in grabs her.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Every interaction with her.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
And her father, I get so nervous it's going to
boil over into incest. Every time they talk or have
breakfast or whatever. There's so much inappropriate in like intensity. Yeah,
but at one point he starts he says to her,
common people will will drain your specialness.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
And I had to write it down.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Because she's saying he's saying, like, you're too good to
talk to those people in the woods.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Oh you Audrina, who were making you the creepiest, creeping
creep though, Yeah, don't talk to common people.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
They're fucking yeah. She's like, take my specialness, please, I'm
so sick of this specialness. But she's she like, quick reminder,
she's a nine year old and her hair is all
colors and her eyes are all colored.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
What the fuck was that?

Speaker 2 (11:38):
It's it's like it's like she's a calico child and
that's part of her specialness. Oh. Also the description of
when Vera gets spanked by daddy. Oh yeah, and it's
down to like her ass burning through her thin underwear.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
Like it gets into a detail where I'm like, no,
this is I think we need to talk to VC Andrews.
We need available I don't know, we need to have
a little fucking quickie convo with her.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
I mean, loo, look it really it just right, It
goes right up to the edge and then and then
scatters back.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
And then kicks it. In the show.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
Oh and then I said this at the show the
other night. But my favorite, I'm assuming it's a misprint.
It's she describes somebody, and I'm pretty sure it's cousin
Vera coming down the hall clumsily clumbering, which I'm like,
I'm almost positive clumbering isn't a word.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Clumbering makes so much sense, though it.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Makes more sense, but you can't if you're gonna say
clumbering and.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
Not lumbering, I don't need clumsy as well.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
Get clumsy out of there and get a different adjective
without the cl at the beginning, because now you're clumsily
clumbering is your borderline? Like Rod Dull, why don't you
just start singing a song opah opa style.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
And it's like, okay, stop tripping over your own fucking feet. Yeah,
you know, who Vera. Everyone should make fucking clumber it's
the girl. Okay. Speaking of books about children, I have
one to talk about. Okay, but this is a bad one.
I mean not this is a badder. This is a
real one. Okay. So last week we got in the

(13:10):
in r PO box a couple books from a woman
who lives in Ohio and gave us two like Ohio
true crime books. You took one and I kept the
other and started reading it, and I am halfway through
and not fucking obsessed with it, and it's so good.
This is a woman named Karen sent these to us,
and it's this one's called Amy My Search for Her Killer. Here,

(13:33):
I'll show it to you because she's this is a
true crime one. Her name's Amy Mahalovic. She's from a
Cleveland suburb and she disappeared on in October of nineteen
eighty nine. And this dude, James Renner, who's the author,
who's like he like pitched it to his like newspaper
in town and he was working on and now this

(13:54):
whole book is written by him trying to find out
and going through fucking each suspect and talking to the
you know, the co the main investigator of the FBI
agent's the fucking family. And it's written so well. And
he inserts himself in the book in a way that
doesn't suck, because he was the same age as she
was when she disappeared in a town over and like
so it's part of him and the way that we

(14:15):
didn't understand, right, yeah, the way that we remember growing
up and seeing this person's face and how much it
meant to us, and it's it is such a fucking
good book, amazing, and I can't wait to finish it.
So it's a it's it's called Amy A Search for
My Search for Her Killer by James Renner, and I'm
totally obsessed with it.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
And in case you can't find it because it looks pretty,
it's called It's a published by Gray and Company Publishers
www dot GRAYC dot com. G R E Y g
R sorry g R A Y. So if you can't
find it in normal ways, it's on GRAYC dot com.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
It's written so well James Renner. You can, like you
can tell how much it means to him when he's
writing it, and it makes the book so heartfelt and
interesting and wonderful and I really love it. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah,
he's got a good face, he does. Yeah, you really
don't tell a lot of that. Yeah, dang girl. All
weekend I've been reading that good girl, I know, instead

(15:17):
of drinking, kind of like, I can't drink too much
because I want to read this book. King's James, you
fucking cured my alcohol is.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah, that's right, James, James, you should send him a
Starbucks card. Oh that, I swear to God that wasn't
an intentional segue.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
But I would like to thank Live Nation. Yes, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
I went to Starbucks the other night in Glendale because
just running errands, and it was the night before I
get so weird before we leave, when we travel and
I have to buy things that I want to make
sure are there when I get back, I get real
OCD weird.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
Tell us you like, you're like black dress, I need
a black dress and all that.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
No, nothing I actually need. I do things like I
need coffee, so I have coffee here when I.

Speaker 1 (16:04):
Get back, like weird. No, I wonder what that means.
It's just like.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
It's part of my not wanting to leave the house
in the first place. So I start telling myself, like
if I go, I won't be ready.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, there's a lot. I have a real stocking problem. Huh.
But I went with Audrina is the second and worst shitty,
are creepiest and pepist. Audrina the creepiest, babiest stockist ever,
nine year old behind a rain tree with a twelve
year old. But Adrina, there's like a.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
Whole picnic scene where I'm like nine year olds and
twelve year olds don't go on picnics.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
Twelve year olds are one hundred years apart. Yes, nobody wants.
No twelve year old wants to talk to a nine
year old unless she has hair that's purple, gold, yellow, orange,
and red.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
Okay, So I went to the I went to the
the Starbucks closest to the designer shoe warehouse, and uh
and I went in and the only coffee they had
out were was Christmas Blend. So I asked the girl
behind the counter if they had Italian. That's my kind.
She says, hold on, I'll get my coworker to go

(17:06):
look for it. Are you fascist a little bit? Ok yeah,
I only I like Italy, just from like nineteen thirty
five to write around forty three.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
Fair enough.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
The girl comes out of the back holding like the
one bag of Italian, and when she the doors fly open.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
She's like, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
And then I was like hey, I was like, that's
for me, and she's like, okay, I love your podcast.
And then that's my favorite reaction when people seem genuinely bummed,
like they don't want.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
To say it, but they've already acted weird. Yeah, and
it was super cute.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Anyway, long story short, she didn't act weird that that
sounds just metal. She was very sweet and seemed happy
and surprised. And then she gave me a free pound
of coffee. And I was like, wait, hold on, I
don't want you to pay for my coffee. And then she's like, no,
we get a free pound every week.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
It was like her pound she would have had at
home with her roommates.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
That's right, I'd like to take that away from her, right,
So thank you too. Thank you to Mariah at the
Glendale Starbucks. You front and me your friends and family coffee,
as that's what she said.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Anyway, friends and fascist coffee. Thank you, Mariah. My Mussolini SIPs.
I love it. I love Italians. I love the way
they make coffee. Did you come home from your trip
happy that you had coffee? Yes, pre ground already in
the thing.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
Come on, because the mistake I always make is then
oh forget, I'll just get the whole bean at the
grocery store.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Now, no, no, never, terrible listen.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
Creates Look, it creates garbage on your counter. Don't want that,
can't have it.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Steven's got one. Stephen's pointing at a thing. Oh good, okay,
Stephen almost deleted this entire episode. The magic, the magic
that just happened.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
You wouldn't, I mean, you heard it? How could any
of that get recaptured? I love thinking of people who
start this podcast this late on, and the way we
start this thing is like a word puzzle, like, who
the fuck would know what was going on?

Speaker 1 (19:00):
Why are they talking about in my sweet Audrina and
kicking people in the shins? Oh it's the first time
of Hanukah. Oh yeah, a hanna Ka miracle happened today?
What was it? So? My think, my thing that I'm
looking I'm happy about this week. At the end of
the episode was going to be that my mom and
I are going to therapy on Thursday. She's coming with
me to therapy. Wow, we're gonna sit in therapy together

(19:22):
and work out why she's such a fucking stupid bitch.
No no, no, no, no, no no no no. We're
gonna work some shit out and work it out because
we're fighting right now. I'm not speaking. But here's what happened.
I accidentally told her it was Tuesday, our therapy appointment,
so she called me. I was like, where the fuck
are you not? She was like, where are you? And
so I made her come meet Vince and I for

(19:43):
lunch and we work some shit out. Oh that's good.
Really well yeah, oh that's good. So everything's good. Now
are you still going to go? She can't she has
to work on Thursday. Yeah, so it's not it wouldn't
have happened, like it wouldn't have happened because I fucked
it up. But we talked and argued, and Vince being
there made it really great because he's such a good
mediator and everything. So everything's fine. Now that's fine, everything's

(20:06):
you know, human, now are you?

Speaker 2 (20:09):
But are you going to get her to go? Or
you think that that window is closed?

Speaker 1 (20:13):
No, No, she'll come. She's been offering it for years
and I've always been like, that's fucking condescending. Fuck you
think that like coming to therapy and so you can
tell me what's wrong with you know I've been. But
does she go to therapy? Oh? Yeah, we all go
to therapy. Oh okay, everyone in my family goes to
fucking therapy. Got it. Yeah? So that was a hanic americle. Amazing.
Yeah that you got to do it out of the office, right, yeah.

(20:36):
That it's still we still were able to talk about
what happened. Her mean text me so thank you yahweh yes,
and the angel Gabriel uh huh and the first since
first and best Audrina.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
That's all thank you, that's all her. She had white hair,
I believe white.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah. It was in fucking changey colory like a fucking
she was addlefish. Please elements, what's the little uh? Oh,
my god, Jesus, what's the one? Tiny Tim? It's a
happy Christmas? Everyone is that it is that? It no

(21:24):
like you.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
You just revealed that you've been like a spy, a
Russian spy, deep deep state, Russian spy, scrooge, Happy Christmas.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
I said, it was a Honka miracle. Alvi fucking this
insane Siamese cat screamed, and then I said, it's a
happy Christmas everyone. Sorry. That just reminded me.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
My favorite shirt of the weekend was the woman who
was wearing a shirt that said make Paul Onions Proud.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
I almost lost my mind. I don't.

Speaker 2 (21:59):
It's wine is with you people, It's the best best
people ever has best.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Who wants to go first? I went first at the
at the Insane City Show that'll never be posted. That
is one of my favorite shows. So sometimes you guys
will have, well, like if we sell out a show
really really quickly, our amazing, wonderful tour agent Joe Schwartz

(22:25):
will be like you guys at a late show, and
we'll be like, okay, and then we're like, why did
we do that? It's it's really hard to do. It's
pretty hard the second show, and so we get on
there and we're fucking hopped up on diet coke and
fucking coffee and cocaine like many TwixT bars, and we
go up and it's fucking bananas and this one was

(22:46):
especially bananas.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
I you say that yours was great, you saved it.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
Here's the thing, it just is like such a roll
of the dice were.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
We're doing a thing that you probably should not do
for a lot show, which is we don't know what
the other person's going to talk about, which makes it
really fun and is the best part. But then like
on that one with mine, I felt like I was
in a car sliding on ice, like skidding into a
brick wall.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
I went first last time, so I'll go first, okay,
and we're back. That's right, we're back. We are back
back in good old twenty twenty six, twenty six, thank you.
Here's the thing, it's like.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Back then, we were on the road a lot, and
we were at the hardest version of us being on
the road, which was three cities a weekend, multiple cities
a weekend, yeah, vnce driving us in a mini van
from city to.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
City to city. I think we knew we could say
no to anything. No. We kind of couldn't we kind of, yeah,
And I mean it paid off, Yes it did. We're
here today and we had a real good time. We
had a great time. I mean, we ate so many
egg bites from Starbucks that we neither of us can
eat them anymore.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
The amount to bad eating I did while going. I
have to stop eating like this. But there was literally
I shouldn't say literally, but almost no choice.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
Because the nighttime menu for room service. But I'm not
complaining about room service. I will never complain about rooms.
We're so privileged.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
And you could get chicken strips, mac and cheese and
the caesar salad and mac and cheese.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, and that's it, and that's it. We did that,
so we did it over and over again.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
This is where we tried to start the My Sweet
Audrina book club and it doesn't work.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Oh, this is the first of our just many terrible
book clubs.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Well, you know what's funny is like, we should have
a book club, but we can't figure out how to
do it in a way that would be effective as
a weekly podcast, because we're interesting. I certainly cannot read
a book, not only in a week, and I'd say
three months. I can't get that homework done.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
I can listen to a book in three days. Yeah,
but then I've neglected everything else in my life.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, except for like vacuuming or things you can do
while you're listening to.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
A book my nails. Okay, So no real big update
on Amy Mahalovic's murder the book I read of James Renner's.
It remains unsolved as of today. Investigators have continued pursuing
new DNA and forensic genealogy testing in the case, and
James Renner, who's our friend now, has remained active in

(25:17):
the in true crime media and cold case advocacy work
through books, podcasts, and forensic genealogy work. Amazing. Yeah, love
his work.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
We also almost deleted this episode famously, which is crazy
that I do that so easy, breezy. With the delivery
of these episodes.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
To this day, the thought of I'm not recording still
gives me chills, like the thought of, like did I
hit record? Have we have done it? I think in COVID,
I did it one time. Yeah, I did it once,
and I think you've done it once.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
I think for like full episodes where we get to
the end, we're like, ha ha ha, what a good
time we had.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
We need to make promo code murder merch. We've never
done that. Oh, that's a really good idea. Thank you.
I just came up with it. That's not true, it's
from it's.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
It's from ten years ago. But we'll we're going to
do it now. Nicole and Vanessa. We would pull them
in and get this done.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
It's not all me making our merch anymore. No, that's
right on. Fucking cut and paste from a cood. Murder
would be really Kat would be very hurt to hear
you say that. Okay, oh no, you de decorate it, Kat.
Then I have to like pick out the blanks and up.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
Oh no, no, no, you did it all, didn't You started
our merch economy. It's incredible. Thank god you did it.
You pulled my house out of foreclosure. You had to
do all those things, and then show me the piece
of paper that said here's how much we made this.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Week, handwritten scribbled. Yeah, okay, anything else? Oh? Oh oh oh?
This is the episode where we are given the haunted doll.
Can we show pictures? You don't remember? Oh my god,
it's the doll with two faces? Can we see the
other side? Happy? Oh no, it's the scariest like homemade,

(27:00):
raggedy ann knitted.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
This was given to us in twenty seventeen at our
Saint Louis stop. Okay, a legendary show, so we talk
about often. But somebody came backstage and was like, I
got this and on now you're going to have it.
And we kept it for as long as we could
and then you took it back out onto the road
and gave it away.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
Am I right?

Speaker 2 (27:20):
No?

Speaker 1 (27:20):
You know what I think I did. Also, first of all,
this is the first gift or curse o.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
Aka, And it's very clear what the answer said, no gifts.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
I think we packed it into mail. I think we
were sending a listener something and we put it in
the box and sent it with it that's mean and
made them take it, made them have it. Who is
that person?

Speaker 2 (27:44):
Right us?

Speaker 1 (27:44):
We're sorry. Are you still alive or did this doll
kill you? Yes? Jesus Christ, who has this doll?

Speaker 2 (27:51):
We would love for you to reach out so we
can bring you back into the fold and talk about
how your life has either improved or fallen apart. So
we sent you this doll probably deprove. What if it
deproved terribly and it's all our fault.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
Well, the point was that she had to then give
it to someone unwittingly, like it just has to go
on and on, like we got it unwittingly. She got
it unwittingly. There's a chain letter of a doll of
a haunted right. It's like a hot potato, but with
a terrifying doll. You know why.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
It's the knitter someone's great aunt who put this thing
together decided that when they were going to do the
sad face, they were just going to do white yarn,
whereas the happy face has a nice flush to it.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
And somehow that blew their eyes look like they're bleeding.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, there's a lot of that's like a doll that
the person died in an ice storm. That's the feeling
I get.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
The soul of the person who diagnized rooms in that doll.
It's it's so scary. All right, let's stop talking. Let's
get into caring. Story about Jennifer Pan.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Now this story, uh uh. Guy Brandham told me to
do this a while ago when we were doing shows
in Toronto, but I said no.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
It's when he told me about it.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
I read it up a little bit and then I
was like, oh, it's too singular, it's too like, doesn't
have enough I don't know, bells and whistles or whatever.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Body and then body body. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
But then I read it and that's not the case,
and I knew it was a good story because for me,
it this story causes me more and more and more
anxiety as I read it. So I'll tell you about
this is this is the story of Jennifer Pan. Oh

(29:45):
you know this one, yes, okay, And I love it.
So I realized in reading these articles, what I found
was that the real like mother like the source of
this story that yeah, exactly, that you were regional yeast
doe of this story was from an article written by
a woman named Karen k Hoe, a name I'll remember

(30:07):
for the rest of my life. For I guess a
magazine called Toronto Life because this girl knew Jennifer Pan
and grew up with her, so was kind of giving
a different, like a different view of how of the
whole thing.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
I feel like it's always different when the person who's
writing the story knows what the town was like where
they're from, you know what I mean, like, because it
can be like any fucking small town or suburb or
whatever when you know what it's like, Yeah, and what
the person what the high school is like, and what
the curriculum and what the person's expectations are. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
The context because context and this one, yes, and like
it's the family context, especially in this story, because this
is one of those stories about what they call the
dragon parents.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
So there's tiger.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
Moms are one thing, but then there's another term that
they were using in all these articles, and it was
dragging dragon parents or dragonfather.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
So I think it's the ones that are way more intense.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
It's not just like, it's the kind that are insanely
restrictive and insanely strict and tough with really high expectations,
where there's kind of you have no choice.

Speaker 1 (31:17):
There's failure is not an option. Okay.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
So on November eighth, twenty ten, at around nine thirty pm,
Jennifer Pan locked the front door of her family's home
in Markham, Ontario, which was a suburb outside of Toronto,
and went to bed. Shortly afterwards, three men entered her
home with guns. They ransacked the home. It was a

(31:42):
home invasion looking for money. They grabbed Jennifer's parents. Han
is her father and Bick is her mother. They took
them down into the basement. Basically, they had TV roomed
down in their basement. Brought them down in the basement.
They were demanding money. They looked all through the master bedroom.

(32:05):
They tore up the whole master bedroom to find money.
To kept demanding money. We're being invaded. Han, Jennifer's father,
told them that he had money in his wallet. He
was trying to think of other places that he could
give them money from. And they end up shooting Han

(32:27):
in the shoulder and then in the right eye, and
then as Vic Jennifer's mother is screaming, they shoot her
three times and kill her. Han survives getting shot in
the eye.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
Dad, Yes, how does that happen? I don't know. It
broke his orbital bone.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
The bullet and it grazed the vein that goes down
your throat.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
I guess it's is it your jugular or one of
those you know, the vane the eye vein. It is
big here ducked.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
It basically went through his eye, but then, like I think,
out the side and he survived. Upstairs, Jennifer, they tied
Jennifer to the staircase.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
Staircase banisters. Thank you to the banister thing you stick
your head through and get stuck. How old is she again? Sixteen?

Speaker 2 (33:23):
She no, at the time, she is twenty six. Okay,
oh wow, but she looks sixteen.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
She lives at home, Yes, she lives at home with
her very strict parents. So they tie her with shoelaces
to the banister and they shoot the parents and then
they all leave with whatever the cash that they've taken.
I think it's it ended up being like through around
three thousand dollars or something. Jennifer gets out of she

(33:51):
loosens out of the shoelaces. She calls nine one one.
She's freaking out. The cops arrive, Hank comes out of
the basement.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
He's able to get up and walk outside.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
A neighbor's the first one to find him, and he
gets loaded into an ambulance. Jennifer gets loaded into an ambulance.
She has a younger brother who is half an hour
away at college, and and they all get taken. She
gets met by crisis workers at the hospital. They tell

(34:22):
her her father's and surgery and that her mother is dead.

Speaker 1 (34:28):
She's at the hospital for a really long time.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
Eventually they realize that that there's not even wounds like
there theres aren't even red marks on her wrist from
those shoelaces, so she is uninjured and she ends up.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
They take her. Once she's out of the hospital, they
take her back to the police.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
Station and the detectives question her and basically just kind
of start asking her questions.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
What happened? Just can you describe these people? They make
her go through it once.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
Then they do another technique where they make her and
I got also got a lot of those from case
one of our favorite case file.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
That's what that's the episode I listened to.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
Of This's I mean, that guy just does such amazing research.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
It's just so dramatic.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yes, yeah, he was also pronouncing the mom's name Bica,
but I only ever saw it written that it was
pronounced bick, So I'm.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Well, yeah, and he's Australian. He's Australian.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
I don't know what he's doing. He's doing something with
his voice, so anyway, okay. So basically she goes and
the cops are like, tell me the story your way, now,
tell it from above, like just and then see what
you can remember.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
So like, it's so weird. Can you imagine having to
do that, Yeah, especially a traumatic event. Yeah, telling the
story over and over. It's like, as you see the
people acting it out, that's so weird. It's so crazy.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
But then that second way does help her to remember,
and she's able to describe the guys better in more detail.
She remembers them, the names that they called each other, yea,
different things that they talked about with the money, whatever,
so it's a little bit effective. Then right before she leaves,
the guy says, oh, we need to check your phone

(36:10):
because if these guys met, we think you know, her
mom had just come home from line dancing class, so
they're like, well, maybe somebody followed her. More like it's
she was targeted somehow, So if it wasn't her, then
we want to see if it was you, if you
were being.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
Targeted, so we need to know who you've been talking to.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
And then in this interview, because on the case file
thing that he has all the interview tapes, so they
it starts with the nine to one one tape where
I was on the freeway did she listen on the
way over? And I grabbed that phone so fast? It
was just because she is freaking out into the phone,
and of course, you know, screaming, But then in the

(36:46):
police interview tapes, she's really she's crying, she's really upset.
And then at one point he says, you need to
sign this thing so we can look into your phone,
and then she's like so, and all of a sudden,
she has a bunch of questions about how they're looking
into her phone and what that might mean, and he's
basically going, it's fine because if you're not lying to us,
it's just us looking at your phone. And then if

(37:07):
you are lying to us, we're going to find out
like who you've been talking to and if it's information
we need to know. And that's when like the temperature
changes a little bit, because up until that point she
was the victim. She was, you know, like the one
of two survivors of a terrible home invasion murder robbery,
so that, you know, it changes a tiny bit there.

(37:28):
And then they start looking into her past and the
people that she's been talking to, and it turns out
that Jennifer Pan might not be the person that she
has been presenting herself to be. Okay, So basically, her father,
Han had been a Tiger dad. Well, we'll start at
the beginning. They her parents were both born and raised

(37:53):
in Vietnam, and they moved to Canada's political refugees in
nineteen seventy nine, and they got married in Toronto, and
then they lived in Scarborough Neighborhood for a while, and
that's where they had Jennifer in nineteen eighty seven and
then her brother Felix in nineteen eighty nine. Scarborough Neighborhood
apparently was kind of rough at the time that they
lived there. They both Han and Bick worked at Magna

(38:18):
International car parts manufacturer.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
And they worked really hard.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
So by two thousand and four they'd saved enough money
to buy a large house, the two card.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
Garage in Markham.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
So Markham was a quiet suburb north of Toronto, predominantly
Asian families and very it's just kind of like.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
Where people went. It was really just quiet, low key.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
And now bick Is driving Alexis Hans driving a Mercedes
like they're doing very well, and they have.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
It's reported they had two hundred grand in the bank.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
So they were totally dedicated to their kids and getting
their kids into cos, getting there, making their kids as successful,
you know Canadians as they can. So they didn't allow
Jennifer they had. Jennifer was playing piano from the age
of four. She won all these awards. She had like
a room full of awards for how good she wasn't

(39:15):
playing the piano. Then she got into ice skating when
she's a little older. When she was a little older,
and she did it every single day and she wanted
to go. She was like in training and she had
set her sights on being in the twenty ten Winter
Olympics in Vancouver. Then she tears a ligament in her
knee and basically that dream ends for her. When she

(39:39):
was graduating eighth grade, she thought she was going to
be the valedictorian and she basically found out she was
getting no academic awards, and she was not the valedictorian,
and that's like, all of a sudden, she was just like,
I'm the point, I'm not who I'm supposed to be.
And she kind of she had been working her ass
off up to that point, so she wasn't she didn't

(40:00):
a mark, and she was shocked and couldn't believe it,
and that's totally unacceptable in her family. Like her family
was like, all A's all you do is like these
extracurricular activities We've chosen for you very specifically, and then
you're gonna be like, you're gonna get a four point
eight GPA essentially, So no, Jesus has to do the impossible, essentially.

(40:25):
So some nights in elementary school, she'd come home from
ice skating at ten, then do homework till midnight, and
then go to bed in elementary school, and in an
elementary school, she started cutting herself because the pressure was
so intense to be successful and all these different things

(40:46):
she was doing.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
So she was doing little horizontal cuts on her forearms. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
So then once she went to mary Ward Catholic Secondary School,
ice skating was over for her. Started playing flute in
the school band, but every day after school. Her parents
were there to pick her up when when band practice
was over so she could go home and study. But
her grades, in for the way their family considered it,

(41:13):
were failing because she was only getting bees.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
God, I would have paid for a read back then
with my cello, my shitty cello playing.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
I mean, I don't understand why I got any of
the grades I got because I never tried, and I
would get just a full variety from it, from A
to D.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
Oh. It was just like, why try. Yeah, I don't
learn that early. It's very random. Yeah, why try? Why try?
Just have a good time.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
So when she got her first bad, you know, all
bees report card freshman year, she took some old report cards,
some scissor, some glue, a photocopier, and she made herself
a brand new fake report card worth straight.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
As all a's. Yep, that's how you get all a's.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
And in her mind she said, universities don't consider marks
from grade nine Canadian grade nine in Canadian grade ten.
So she's in her mind it wasn't a big deal.
It didn't matter, and I'm sure she was thinking, I'm
buying myself a little time.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
Here's these a's and.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
I'll work back up to as and it'll all work out.
She was not allowed to have a boyfriend. She was
not allowed to go to dances. She was not allowed
to go to parties. She was not allowed to spend
the night at friends' houses. It was all about school
and getting her school work.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
In the spring. All her hard work and dedication paid off.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
She graduated from high school and won early acceptance to
Ryerson University in Toronto.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Her parents were happy.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
They wanted her to go to the University of Toronto,
but Ryerson University was still great for them.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
Here's the problem.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
Jennifer Pan had early acceptance to Ryerson University, but then
that got canceled when she flunked out of calculus when
she was a senior, so she that early acceptance was rescented.
Now she's not in any college, so she starts doing
what many people do. You pretend you're going to college

(43:10):
every morning. Yeah, so this is like, yeah, now we're
into me when I live in Sacramento and I am
flunking out of college, but my parents don't know. So
I'm doing the thing where I go home for the
summer and every day get up and run to the mailbox,
like I'm a child excited for the mail, trying to
get the mail the report card before my.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Parents do because you can see it. No, you're not going.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, my report card was like a point eight three
or something like I was only going to theater classes.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
I mean, you're literally going. It was insane.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
No, So she's doing the same thing, but she's kind
of doing it in reverse. So she's saying she's going
to school, getting up every morning, taking the train, and
then just chilling out at cafes. She got a part
time job waitressing to pizza place, and she was hanging
out with her secret high school boyfriend, Daniel Wong.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
Daniel Wong, So she had been dating.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
Daniel Wong since they went on a European in high
school bands they went on a trip to Europe, and
she had only been friends with up up until that point.
And she I think the story was that she had
an asthma attack in a smoke filled bar and.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
Like thought that she was going to die because she
couldn't breathe, and Daniel came to her rescue.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
And Daniel came to her rescue and like talked her down,
and then they.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
Became secret lovever.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
Yeah, I was trying to hold my breath's sake and
finish that.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
It was so amazing, but I couldn't parents. Oh my god, Daniel, they.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
Were secret lovers, so that hadn't been going on. Also,
she had she'd had a bunch of plates spinning at once,
Jennifer pan, so sometimes she would go over to his house.
She finally convinced her parents that she needed to move
in with her friend Topaz, who lived close to college
and had an amazing name and had.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
The best name. Was she a stripper? We'll never know,
it doesn't matter. That's what I'm.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
Picturing in my head. Topaz in the apartment had the
poll to practice on.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
I mean, that's hard. Have you seen this is like
some crazy ab work.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
Dude, that's like incredible dedication, strength, stamina, stamina. I just
fall asleep as I'm talking, so okay, So basically that
becomes part of it. She's also telling her father that
her grades are so good, she's getting like three thousand
dollars tuition scholarships. So she it just lies upon lies

(45:43):
online so because it's better than having to tell your
parents that you're just like a normal human being, right,
which made me so sad.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
It's just just to be like, I'm just average. We
want it. Just to enjoy my life as a normal
human is not acceptable.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
Right, And there is apparently there's a couple of times
in this article that bick her mom would be like,
let her be herself or she's okay as she is,
and tried to like take the heat off a little bit,
but she was also Jennifer's the oldest. Yeah, and there's
just so you know, there was so much pressure. It's
that it's it's the same kind of pressure in like

(46:20):
I will I can equate it in the way of
like in our family Irish immigrants, like they call them
lace lace curtain Irish where they make sure everything looks
really good because they think everybody thinks they're a scomebag.
So they're like, here's our beautiful lace, Like how well
we're doing. Everything's ironed and everyone we have nine kids,
but everyone's clothes are perfectly ironed.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
Because well, it's a thing of like immigrant parents, where
it's like I didn't fucking I didn't go through what
I went through. For you to work in an office
like a boring office or in a pizza place, or
as you know, even as an exotic dancer, like, which
is all acceptable fucking job. It's what everybody does that's
not will not accept it. I didn't come here from

(47:02):
Vietnam to fucking raise a child. To not be a superstar,
you have to have like your own law firm.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
You have to Yeah, you have to do everything perfectly
and never trip once, which is not only impossible, yeah,
but also that's not how you get good at things.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
Thank god. My parents had no expectations whatsoever, aside from
I mean, aside from nothing. My parents, my.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Dad used to love to tell the story that they
used to bring home their report cards to my grandpa,
who they said, des ands and des and f's meant
doing fine, And he didn't.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
He dropped out of school when he was a kid.
He was like doing good, everybody Jesus correct.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
And they all became civil servants and plumbers and things
that you know, and that back then you could make
money by doing that. It's not like that anymore anyway.
I'm sorry, going no, no, no, no, but there it's
just funny how there there there are these pressures.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
In some way.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
It's like in some culture it's academic pressure. In some cultures,
it's like you have to.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Get married and have a family immediately. Pressure. It just
depends but or being used to be religious.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
Yeah yeah, stay in the click totally, stay in the
fam totally.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
So Jennifer is she's under the gun and now she's
twenty two years old, and she has been lying to
her parents consistently since like eighth grade essentially, and being
having like a double life, which is kind of amazing.
She's but she's never gone to a party, she's never
gone to a club, she's never gotten drunk, and her

(48:36):
one relationship is her secret relationship with Daniel Wong.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
So basically, she then.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
Tells them that she it was her father's dream for
her to go to pharmacology school and become a pharmacist.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
So she's like, guess what, everybody I got accepted? Like
she just makes a thing up.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
Yeah, she she lies.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
She tells them that she got in. They're thrilled she hadn't.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
But she starts buying used books and bringing home like
pharmacology books and when she would leave for school every day.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
It's stressing you out, in Stephen.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
It just reminds me of the woman who did that
for Stamford and pretend to be in Stamford for like
two years, same thing.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
Because her family thought she had so she lived in
like Pollowen.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
She would and she would like sleep in like if
a door, like if a dorm, like a roommate dropped out,
she'd be like, oh, I'm the new roommate, and she
would sleep in people's dorms and stuff, pretending that she
was a student, faking her grades all the same stuff.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Yeah, they kind of should get an honorary doctorate for
getting away with it, for like faking it for sore
tend to be successful. You're saying you have so much
further to fall, Yes, And also it's take that take
that initial hit of like I fucked up.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
Let the chips fall. They can only yell for so long. Yeah,
and take the and take the initiative to lie and
use that towards something better, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
Like you're a really good liar, Like go get a
job somewhere cool, right and build yourself up to management.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
Take that lie your way to manage it.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
But just like you clearly are not stupid if you're
able to fucking trick all these people for two years,
get into sales get into fucking sell houses, sell houses,
sell mobile phones on Hollywood Boulevard, right out on the
sidewalk right.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Pharmaceuticals start right around the corner on the hour. Oh
my dad sold fucking gin soon ives at a fucking
hallmart Oh, yes, do it. Those things can cut a
coke can and he showed you how at a Walmart.
My day, Marty, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
So she instead goes for it in a major way.
She majors in line and tells her that she's going
to pharmacology school, which I just can't. It's almost like
she's not even lying and going like I you know what,
I got a job in California, I'll see you or anything.
She's not busting out. She's just like continuing to try
to make it.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Work, like I still have to live here.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Yeah, and I have to make these people happy and
I don't know how, So I'm just going to do
it the way they demand. So she's buying fake textbooks,
and not fake textbooks, use textbooks like oh the old Pharmacology,
And then she's going to the library and watching videos
and reading books on it and taking notes so that
when she goes home she has dreams of notes, so
it looks like she's really doing work.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
She could have actually been going to school this whole
time doing that probably if she wasn't to be students,
she could have That was rude.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
So so then she asked, she asked if she can
stay at Topaz's house during the week, because it's a
way better commute.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
Her mom's like.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
Super empathetic and like, let's let her, it'll be so
much better. Well, she's, of course not staying at Topaz's house.
She's staying at Daniel Wong's house. Danny his parents. She
was lying to his parents and saying it was okay
with her parents, she was staying at their house. And
then so basically there was no one she wasn't lying

(52:06):
to except Daniel Wall. So basically, when it was theoretically
time for her to graduate from the University of Toronto
pharmacology program, they Daniel and helped her find someone online
to create a fake transcript with all a's in it.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
And then she.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
Told her parents when it was the graduation ceremony that
it was an extra large class and all there weren't
enough seats. All the students only got one ticket, and
she'd already given it to a friend because she didn't
think one parent would want to go without the other parent. Yeah,
I think that's when it might have started to stink
a little bit to the parents. But then when Jennifer

(52:50):
told them that she was volunteering at Toronto's prestigious hospital
for sick children, they noticed that she didn't have any ID,
no uniform, there was nothing.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
To prove that she she officially worked there.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
So one day, Han they drop her off or they
insist upon driving her to work, and so then she
gets out a car and runs into the hospital and
then Han tells Bick go in after her and.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
Follow her in.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
So she ends up going and running and like hiding
for hours in the emergency room or in the waiting room,
and basically Bick comes back out and like doesn't find her,
and basically she waits them out until they leave. And
then early the next morning they called Topaz to say, hey,

(53:38):
we need to talk to Jennifer, and Topaz who just
wakes up as like she's.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Not here, Yeah, isn't in on it.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
It doesn't know what's going on. And basically they find
out that Jennifer was at Daniel's house and the whole
lie comes down, So basically she has to confess she
never volunteered at the Hospital for Sick Children. She didn't,
she wasn't in the pharmacology program, and that she had
been saying at Daniel's house. She actually didn't mention that

(54:05):
she had never graduated from high school and that her
time at Ryerson University was faked. So she didn't admit
to any of that. She only she got out what
she could. Of course, Han lost his fucking shit. The
dad went crazy. Bick had to convince him to let
her remain in the house, and they basically said, it's him,

(54:28):
it's Daniel Wannger, it's us, and if you go with.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
Him, you can never come back to this house again.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
So then she basically had to break up with Daniel
Wong because she didn't know where to go or what
to do.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
So and they take away her cell.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Phone and her laptop for two weeks, and then after
that they tell her we're going to check your messages anytime.
We want to make sure you're not interacting with him.
She's an adult now, she's like twenty five. Oh my god,
so she's yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
Not it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
So she finishes up just that she takes a calculus class,
finish gets her high school like ged or whatever. She
so basically her parents encourage her to apply for college
for real. She makes money as being a piano teacher
part time and basically she can't go anywhere except for

(55:24):
university or piano lessons.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
So she's twenty four. I said that.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
So when she breaks up with Daniel this time, says,
I can't see you anymore because I'll get kicked out forever.
He's like, I find like I can't take it anymore anyway,
He starts dating somebody else and they fall in love.
Oh no, And of course Jennifer doesn't handle it well.
She falls into a deep depression. She attempts suicide, and

(55:52):
at one point she tells Daniel that some men had
home invaded their house and had gang raped her. And
then she tells him that his new girlfriend mailed a
bullet to her as a as a.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
Warning to stay away.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
But she basically insinuated that the new girlfriend this was
all her plan, yeah, to attack Jennifer. So somehow that
story works okay because they end up getting back together.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Well, she a really good liar at this point.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
I think she must be in the like that nine
one one call is so believable. I would have never
doubted her, and I'm sure in a way she was
really I mean her parents were just attacked, right, So
I don't think she's a completely cold like sociopath or psychopath.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
But but she's been lying for fucking fifteen years. She
has to be good at it and used to it,
and it's a normal It's not keeping her up at night, Yeah,
it's not. And it's like it's like a normal way
to live your life is to start by trying to
lie about something.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
Yeah, that like if you're if you're not getting what
you want, get that manipulation going, because you can't ever
get anything kind.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
Of the direct what default is to tell some tell
a person what they want to hear.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
Yes or like, or really play a huge card so
that people go like holy shit, stop everything.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Why would why? Yeah? Exactly.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
So basically Daniel and Daniel himself is a bit of
a he's he has been kicked out of schools. He
he's a little you know, he got caught dealing pot
when he went to that Catholic school that they went
to together.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
He's a little you know, living on the edge, a
little bit himself.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
So when they get back together, basically together, they figure
out that her parents' life insurance policies would pay out
half a million dollars and that she's the beneficiary, and
so Daniel starts helping her make a plan to have
them killed. Buck yes, so he says that he knows
a guy named Lenford Crawford, the worst name of all time,

(58:00):
a borderline V c Andrews name, Lenford Crawford.

Speaker 1 (58:04):
Daniel calls him homeboy. Uh.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
They start setting up a thing where like she can,
she has a separate SIM card and iPhone so she
can talk to him and make this plan. Nobody finds out,
and basically the plan is, when you're done, like watching
TV for the night, unlock the front door. So she
so she actually left the front door unlock. Then she
went upstairs to her room. She flicked the lights in

(58:29):
the study to give them the signal that it was time.
Her mom had come home from line dancing, was watching TV.
Her dad was watching the news in a different room,
and basically these men came in and the men that
home invaded and basically attempted to kill her father and

(58:52):
killed her mother. It was all her doing and completely
her setup.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
Yeah, so, which, you know, it felt like we were
getting to that.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
It's not the biggest reveal man world, but it's so sad, it's.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
So fucking crazy and over the top. And then basically
the third time they bring her, so the cops the
first time they think they're just getting the story from
her the first interview. The second interview, they're kind of like,
let's talk about this again and.

Speaker 1 (59:17):
Go over to detailing app almost yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
And it's always, you know, it's like the family is what's.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
Looked at first. Always, Thus the dad was supposed to die? Yeah, right, yes,
so the dad was supposed to die. Was the mom
supposed to die? Yes? They both were, Okay, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
So essentially the third time they they interrogate her and
they use something I think it was called I didn't
I didn't write it here, but basically a guy named
Jeremy Grimaldi is a journalist. In twenty sixteen, he published
a true crime book about Jennifer called A Daughter's Deadly

(59:53):
Deception The Jennifer Pants Story, and in that he talks
about they used this interrogation technique that might not and
have been above board, where they basically trick you into
trusting them, and then waterboard and then like it's almost
like one guy is good cop and bad cop, oh
waterboard you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
And then they just waterboard you. Wait, so the guy
is like, you trust me, you trust me to trust me.
Now I'm angry, and you need to make me not
angry anymore because i'm your friend.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Yes, Like they lull her into a sense of kind
of like she's being talked to, like, yes, you're a
victim too, and I bet it was really hard.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Your dad was really.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Mean and strict and whatever, and then just boom and
they like it's like that kind of shock and aw thing.
I didn't read the whole thing of but you can
read this book where it talks all about that how
that interview might not have been totally fair.

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
Oops. But at the end of the day, she is.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
The person who hired those people, and essentially at the trial,
her own father took the stand and told the story
of what happened. That was March nineteenth, twenty fourteen. He based,
they had to get up on the stand and tell
everybody how these men came in and he survived. When

(01:01:06):
he woke up after getting shot into the eye, he
woke up to his dead wife laying there next to him,
and then got out of the house thinking that everyone
had been killed.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
Yeah, like, where is my daughter? Is she okay?

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
Worried about her too, probably of.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Course, and then slowly finds out that she's the one
behind it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Horrible. So after ten months of this trial, Jennifer.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
Pan, Daniel Wong, homeboy, homeboy, Lenford Crawford, and uh, this
guy's name was David milvaganam man. There's a bunch of
mil vgana maam mil veganman. They all got uh, they

(01:01:49):
were all convicted for murder and attempted murder and each
received a life sentence with no chance of parol for
twenty five years. And then the third guy, Eric Cardy,
who is the one that tied her to the banister,
He's tried separately.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
So there's Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
So basically read Karen Kahoe's article in Toronto Life magazine,
Jennifer Pan's Revenge, The inside story of a Golden Child,
the killers she hired and the parents she wanted dead.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
That's the article you're gonna want.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
To really get into because there are pieces of this
article and every other article like, yeah, that's what everyone's
basing it on. Karen k You'll never understand unless you
have like been raised in a family like that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Yeah, but there's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
It's like so strict, but then there's people that have
had terrible parents.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
They don't have their parents killed. It's just that weird.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Turn of like, yeah, it just stresses me out so bad.
It's like I've done that exact thing where you're like, Okay,
that fucked up. Now I'm going to make up a
new thing that's going to get fucked up, and I'm
gonna do that dumb thing and like the more complicated
you make it, the more the worse you're making.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
It for yourself. Yeah, for sure, that's a good one.
On dude, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
Job.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
Thanks, that's that was Banana's. Yeah, Vince had a friend.
She was a comedian from Michigan and they went to
New York and her name was Juwan and she came
from that kind of family where she had been lying
to her family. They all thought she was going to
school to be a dentist and she was actually a

(01:03:23):
comedian and didn't tell any of them, and then out
of nowhere, she fucking jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge. Yeah,
and killed herself. I remember hearing about that. It's just
so sad, like she just couldn't tell them that she
was doing what she actually wanted to do in life. Yeah,
it's horrible. It's just like such a sad thing to me.
I can't imagine. And I bet so sad for the family.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
Yeah, I think they're applying pressure and just the right
way to or or whatever. They're doing what they know, right,
and I'm sure never in a million years is that
the result they're looking for.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
I'd rather have their daughter as a comedian that you know,
and not what they wanted her to be, then what
they wanted her to be. And so slid right of course,
always made me so sad, even though I didn't know her.
It's so tragic.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Yeah, I remember a lot of I mean a lot
of people I know knew her, and yeah, it was
they're really upset about it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
Yeah, Okay, we're back, Karen. You have updates, Yes I do.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
In twenty twenty four, Netflix released a documentary called What
Jennifer Did About This Case. It includes interviews with police
officers and people who were in Jennifer's life, and footage
from her police interviews. In twenty twenty three, the Ontario
Court of Appeals overturned the first degree murder convictions in
the killing and ruled the original trial judge didn't allow

(01:04:45):
the jury to consider whether Han was the only intended
target of the murders.

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Then in April twenty twenty five, the Supreme Court ruled
that there should be new first degree murder trials for
all four people accused in this case, but affirmed the
convictions of attempted murder. Jennifer then pled guilty to manslaughter
in her mother's death in March of twenty twenty six,
So just a couple of months ago. I mean, it's
just been ongoing and she got a life sentence, but

(01:05:13):
now she's eligible for parole because she's already it's time served.
And then Lenford Crawford is the only one who's been
convicted to apply for parole. He was denied last year.
Eric Cardy, who has tried separately from everybody else, was
sentenced to eighteen years in prison, although he did die
in prison under mysterious circumstances. And then Kate Winkler Dawson

(01:05:37):
actually did an episode of Wicked Words from August ninth,
twenty twenty one about this called Karen k Hoe Jennifer
Pan's Revenge, where Kate interviewed Karen kay Hoe, the woman
who grew up with Jennifer Pan and wrote the article
for The Toronto Life.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
About this case.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
So if you want to go listen to Kate Winkler Dawson,
who's a great interview. You were talked to Karen Kahoe
about this, you can go listen to that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
Wow, amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
Yeah, and now it's time to get into Georgia's story
from this episode about the murder of Irene Garza.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
Yeah, okay, here's my turn. This is a timely story
because it's a cult case that finally, hopefully this is
the end came last week. Huh. But this is a
story that I've been interested in. It's at one of

(01:06:34):
the forty eight hours. You know, we've all watched it.
It's really interesting. Texas Monthly. I got a lot of
this information from the Texas Monthly, which we love Texas Monthly.
The best article called Unholy Act by Pamela Coloff co
l l o Ff. This is the story of fucking
priest John Fight. Oh, a murder of Irene Garza.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
Oh, I don't know, oh honey, oh shit, fucking buckle
the fuck up. Buckle down, baby, settle in, Buckle up.
Hit your foot on the coffee table, the coffee tables.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
Kick the coffee table like you have a crush on it. Okay,
here we go, okay. So Irene Garza is born in
nineteen thirty four. She's this dark haired Hispanic beauty from McAllen, Texas.
It's an agricultural agricultur real nope area, agricultural agricultural area

(01:07:38):
south of Texas in the Rio Grande Valley, five miles
from the US Mexico border. In high school, Irene had
been crowned Miss All South Texas Sweetheart shit and McAllen
High School where you know everyone's fucking white. Back then
she had been the first Hispanic twirler and head drum
Majorrette Wow. So she was like fucking bust down borders.

(01:08:01):
She's this beautiful beauty queen, but she's Hispanic. So it's
you know, a sense of pride, that's it's you know,
she's she's sting down borders. Yes she's not. I mean Texas.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
That's like bit blonde, big teeth, blue wise that's like
usually what you're going to get out of a Texas
beauty queen.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
Right, and she is you know, she's not that. And
she's the first in her family to graduate from college,
which is a super big deal, huge accomplishment. So, at
twenty five years old, she worked as a teacher for
disadvantaged children, which she took a great pride in. Some
of her students were so poor and came from the
neighborhood where she had come from and had been able

(01:08:43):
to get out of that they came to school barefoot,
and Irene spent her first paycheck on buying those children
clothes and books.

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
Yeah, so it happens to this very day, right, even
worse than exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
So she's this really big hearted, kind person. She is gorgeous,
which isn't a reason why she shouldn't be a victim,
But there's just this warmth coming from her. And you know,
she had a huge future that that she earned. That's
what I'm saying. Yeah, listen, look, look and listen. Stop it.
At the center of her life, though, is her devout

(01:09:20):
Catholic faith. That's like her fucking thing. On April sixteenth,
nineteen sixty, the day before fucking Easter Sunday, oh Okay, Saturday, Easter.
Saturday called a thing. It's like, chill out Saturday. Don't
sound like dog. It is palm. I don't know. Chill

(01:09:41):
the fuck out Saturday for Easter.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
Well, go ahead, Well, good Friday, Good Friday.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
Good Friday.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
Is when he went up on that cross. Okay, it
might be the ascension.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
I don't know. He chilled out on Saturday.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
He got rolled on up and then that tomb. Yeah,
and then he was reisen on Sunday.

Speaker 1 (01:10:02):
Yeah, but Saturday he just hung out. Well, Saturday was
all up in that tomb. Yeah. People thinking he's dead,
it's over, and he was like, you know what, I'm
gonna hut Okay, I'm not gonna get sack religious here
we already. Yeah, it's real mad at me.

Speaker 2 (01:10:13):
It's so sad because I've had this shit drummed into
my head. But then of course, well it would be impressive.
I can't pull it out.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
But here's the thing, and today's the first time of Hannakha.
We rebelled again against it because we hated it so much.
So everyone was drumed in her head. We're like, fuck you,
I'm not remembering this. Yeah, and now we just don't
know thing now. Just the guilt remains.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
The guilt and the uh ignorance and the really good songs.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
Oh yeah, I got a bunch of those pieces flowing
like a river. Anytime you want me to sing it too,
I will. Okay, okay, but reha ta, let's fucking do
this man a prayer? Okay, okay. So on April sixteenth,
fucking lazy Saturday, nineteen sixty, Irene Burrows. She's twenty five.

(01:11:00):
She borrows her family car to drive to their church,
Sacred Heart Church, where she plans to go to confession.
She leaves around six point thirty that evening. She's like,
mom will be back, and a bunch of witnesses see
her get to church. Everyone's in line for confession. She
gets in line as well, but no one sees her
leave that church that day. She never came home that night,

(01:11:21):
and the next morning, Easter Sunday. That's right, as you know,
he is truly risen. He rises and her car is
still parked down the street from Sacred Heart. The first
clue comes two days later, when one of Irene's high
heeled shoes is spotted by the side of the road
and three hundred yards from there was her purse. It
looks as if someone had like thrown it out the

(01:11:43):
window of a passing car. There's no fingerprints on it.
It's crazy. Huge search ensues, including they dragged irrigation canals.
They go house to house through the town. Border patrol
planes go fucking circling. Sixty five National garns are called
out to assist what became at the time the most

(01:12:03):
extensive investigation in valley history. Wow. But it's not till
four days later after she disappeared that Irene's body is
found floating in a nearby irrigation canal. She's fully dressed
except for her shoes and underwear are missing. The right
side of her face is badly bruised. She had two

(01:12:24):
black eyes, and the autopsy reveals that she had been
beaten with a hard object and suffocated. The state of
decomposition suggests that she'd been dead for fewer than four days,
So maybe she had been kept somewhere for a day
or so and she had been raped while and conscious. Yeah,

(01:12:44):
the local newspapers go fucking nuts with rumors and speculation.
Everyone is like being fucking targeted or fingered, including this
prominent local citizen who had died of a heart attack
days after she'd disappeared, you know, or that had been transience,
or someone had crush on her because she was so beautiful,
but she was also you know, not she was dating

(01:13:05):
but not you know, she was Catholic, you know what
I mean. Sure, detectives question more than five hundred people
in the weeks following the murder, But behind the scenes, detectives,
they don't talk about this in public, and the newspapers
don't really talk about this. They are focusing on a
twenty seven year old priest named.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
John Fight what yeah, a priest Okay, Fight It's fit
had recently finished his seminary training in San Antonio, and
his name kept turning up in their investigations.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
So he had recently come into town. He was a
bright and well he was bright and well mannered. He
had dark hair and hornbordn glasses. He looked like he'd
be in Weezer, you know what I'm saying. Yes, he
struck parishioners, though, as aloof and a bit of a loner,
and seemed ambivalent about his vocation. When he was asked

(01:13:59):
why he had joined the priesthood, he said, I just
want to give it a try.

Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
I'm sorry, but if God isn't in that sentence or
Jesus or some fucking you can't say that out loud.

Speaker 1 (01:14:14):
Was he new to Catholicism, You got you got to
like be in it to women, Like, if anyone asks
either of us why we want to do a true
crime podcast, it would be like a passionate plea of
how interested in fucking crime we are? That's right, and we're.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
Not and talking talking to God, right, mostly talking, but.

Speaker 1 (01:14:31):
Also like to not.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
It's almost that very glib, flippant thing of like it's
here's my funny joke, and like, really, it's none of
your business.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
Right, is what he's saying, right, which is like to say,
anyone who's asking you is like being earnest and being like,
tell me, I want to connect to you.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
You're a priest. I'm looking for some fucking guidance and
some wisdom. Can I get a fucking amen?

Speaker 1 (01:14:54):
Please? There you go. On the night of Ien's disappearance,
father of Fight had heard confessions and taken part in
a midnight mass. He'd also admitted to his superiors that
he had met privately with Irene in the church. Rectory,
and I wrote in parentheses the house because I didn't

(01:15:15):
know what a rectory was. I thought it was in office,
the church's office.

Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
I thought it was you know where he went and
wrote out his I thought it was an office.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
Well, it's a house, right, I didn't know.

Speaker 2 (01:15:26):
That it's the priest house, that's but it's connected to
the church, so it kind of is like an office.

Speaker 1 (01:15:30):
Do all the priests live there or just the one,
like head priest. It's it's kind of like case by case.
Like in my hometown, Saint Vincent's, they live at the rectory,
but you can also go there, Like at my mom's funeral,
we went to talk to the priest in the rectory
like in a downstairs office. Doesn't rectory sound like it

(01:15:51):
should be like a side room office. Well, it sounds
like factory.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
It's where they're just churning out Jesus' statues all day
and night. But I mean, I think it's like it's basically,
you know, the church hall is where people like have
their you know, Sunday coffee clatches or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
The rectory is where you'd go and you're like, we
need to plan a funeral, We need to plan a wedding.
This is some serious shit happening here.

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
This is the business, and then upstairs the priests live,
and then it's the busy bodies next door making second.

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
I was gonna say Coogle, but they don't know Coogl. No,
they actually they ban Coogle long ago. All right, I
get it. So the rectory is okay, and that was
viewed by other priests as really inappropriate to take anyone,
especially a fucking hot twenty five year old lovely woman.
All right, So well yeah, because unless she has called,

(01:16:42):
like if it was a parish business, she would have
called like the lady, the lady that runs the office,
and then like I need to make it an appoint
But this was for confession specifically. Oh yeah, no, you
do that in the confession booth. There's a there's a
booth that is titled for the thing she was doing.

Speaker 2 (01:16:59):
They had people build it right into the church so
people specifically you can sit there and pray and then
look at people get in confession. Uh huh, that's the
whole idea of confession. Well he took her to the rectory,
gross pass.

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
Okay, Yeah, it's it's problematic. Yes, it is also several
churchgoers who stood in his confession line, which had fuck
installed out because he fucking picked her out and took
her to the rectory as a doc oh that night
told detectives that he seemed to have been absent from
the sanctuary for long periods of time, and another priest's father,
John O'Brien, reported seeing scratches on his hands when they

(01:17:36):
drank coffee together at midnight mass. Then detectives learned that
on March twenty third, so that's three weeks before Irene
Irene disappeared and her body was found, that a woman
had been attacked at a Catholic church twelve miles from
that church, the one where Irene went to. Twelve miles away,

(01:17:57):
twenty year old college student Marine America Guerrera had visited
Sacred Heart Church in Edinburgh and noticed a young man
with dark hair and hornroom glasses. We are sitting alone
in one of the back pews, and in her mind
she was like that. I think she had an immediate
reaction to him. He made me nervous, but she was like,
calm down, Maria, you're in the church. You're in the

(01:18:21):
fucking house of God. Nothing can go wrong, you know.
She let her guard down, Yeah, which is totally understandable
in a church, of course, in a church. Yeah, And
when she went to the altar and knelt at the
communion rail, a man grabbed her from behind and tried
to put a rag over her mouth. Holy shit. Yeah,
she fucking fought the shit out of him, and when
he put his hand back over her mouth to silence

(01:18:42):
her because she was screaming, she bit the shit out
of his fingers until he drew blood. She drew blood, Yes,
that's you know what I'm saying. She ran out the
side door of the church. She escaped, and in her
sworn statement, she said that she thought her attacker was
a priest. That was the first feeling she got. Wow,
which was very controversial. Yeah, you know what I'm saying,
I bet because this is the fifties or the sixties.

(01:19:03):
This is like, this is nineteen sixties, so we're technically
still in the fifties. So I wrote about this that
this is this is a long time before the sexual
allegations against priests started to come out, and people believed, Yeah,
this wasn't until the nineties that these allegations came out
against priests sexually amounting children and it wasn't even until
way later that people believed them. Well.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
And of course horrible document I mean, oh, amazing documentary.

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
I wrote this down. There is it the It's deliver
Us from Evil.

Speaker 2 (01:19:33):
And there's a guy in it that talks about when
he got molested by a priest, being driven into police
the priest's car because they he didn't have a dad,
and so he's like, I'll take him out to ice
cream or whatever, gets molested in the priest car. The
priest drops him off, he walks into the house says
to the mom, what just happened. The mother slaps him
across the face and says, how dare you ever say that?

(01:19:54):
And then the priest continues visiting their house for years
to come.

Speaker 1 (01:19:58):
It's the most upsetting.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
It's just children against adults, and there's no everyone's like,
no fucking way. It's not even children against adults. It's
children against God's chosen people. And these I highly religious people,
which I don't completely understand, which is why I was
excited to talk to you about this because you were
raised Catholic.

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
They're infallible. They are infallible, and you talking badly against
a priest is talking badly against Jesus fucking.

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
Christ, that's right, right' it's like pre Vatican two shit,
where it's like it's old like when the popes used
to control everybody and they were the richest people and
they fuck anything they wanted and it was just all
about power and money and basically these Yeah, this is
why people who were pedophiles went into the priest and

(01:20:51):
they went in with carte blanche.

Speaker 1 (01:20:53):
And we're not saying that Catholicism is bad religion, that
priests are bad people, that any you know, I'm not
talking shit on any of this. It's just this reality
of a really bad period that happened that we need
to acknowledge.

Speaker 2 (01:21:06):
Well, yeah, and I mean I think at this point
it's so been acknowledged. Most of the people that I
know that are good Catholics and that are faith based, like,
they don't they still believe in they have a relationship
with God and spirituality.

Speaker 1 (01:21:19):
But most of the adults.

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
That I know because of the stuff that's happened in
the Catholic Church are incredible. And I don't just mean
like people my age, I mean like people my parents'.

Speaker 1 (01:21:28):
Age that are just so.

Speaker 2 (01:21:31):
It's like you can't look at that power structure and go,
this should continue. This is this is going great. They've
handled stuff great and it should continue.

Speaker 1 (01:21:40):
There's there are very few people that feel that way
because it's just so what a horrible thing. But you
can't give people absolute power like that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:48):
No, no, not at all, especially that access, that access
to families.

Speaker 1 (01:21:54):
But I have to say this too, like, there are priests.

Speaker 2 (01:21:58):
In my in sat instance that are some of the
best people I've ever met.

Speaker 1 (01:22:01):
Absolutely, and it's just that kind of like it's almost
like the bad ones steal the good the goodwill from
the good ones, definitely, because those ones, that's like, what
what a great effect they have on people's lives. Yes,
that's how it all works, definitely. So okay, So yeah,
so this is way before any of these things came

(01:22:23):
to light. So at Sunday Mass after Irene's funeral, just
to show you how protected priests were, the priest told
the congregation that he knew there were rumors that a
priest was involved in Irene's murder, and he said, quote,
it is impossible that a priest would commit a crime
like this. Don't speak of it, don't even let yourself
think it. He said that himself at to the congregation.

(01:22:47):
Uh huh yeah right. In late April, detectives drained the
irrigation canal where they had found Irene's body and on
the bottom was a light green Eastman codea slide view
with a long black cord, So like a.

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):
Slide viewer, yeah, picture viewer, like one of these, yeah,
but like to the wall.

Speaker 1 (01:23:11):
Oh okay, like a slide show.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
Yeah thing, yeah go, we call those code slide viewers
at our house.

Speaker 1 (01:23:19):
You know, there is a photo of it online if
you look it up, I mean, like of the actual one,
so that it's long cord on it. It's at the
bottom of the irrigation canal where they think her body
was thrown in. Really Clostopher it was. And they also
find a candelabra that belonged to the church. John Fight
is like, oh yeah, I bought that code slide thing
last summer. He like is like, oh yeah, that was mine.

(01:23:41):
And those candelabra, that kind of libra belongs to the church.
So what he probably strangled her with and what he
probably hare with a fucking head with is at the
bottom of the fucking canal. And he raises his fucking
hand and it's like that's mine.

Speaker 2 (01:23:53):
Wow, yeah, because kind of in the confidence of knowing
no one can do anything about it.

Speaker 1 (01:23:57):
Who fucking yeah, maybe who knows mm mm hmm. So
finally the priest sits down with the detectives in early May.
He provides, a, of course meticulous account of his actions
on Easter weekend. He says that he had counseled Irene
in the Sacred Heart Rectory. He said, yeah, I totally
did that because she had some information she wanted to
give me that was private, so I brought her. That's
why I brought her in there.

Speaker 2 (01:24:18):
He had because of the confession booth, which is a
muffled closet.

Speaker 1 (01:24:23):
That no one can hear the from the outside of,
wasn't private enough.

Speaker 2 (01:24:27):
She could only scream her confession as the problems it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:30):
No. He saw her leave though at whatever time, and
then he had these like dumb excuses for why he
had cuts on his hand and he's like and goodbye.
Polygraph tests implicate him in both Irene's murder and the
attack on Maria Guerrera a couple weeks earlier, and in August,
father Fight is indicted for assault with intent to rape

(01:24:53):
Maria Guerrera. Oh shit. Yeah. The jury though, motherfucking deadlocks
and the proceedings ended mistrial. And so rather than face
a second trial in nineteen sixty two, Father Fight pleads
no contest to reduce charges of aggravated assault, gets fined
five hundred dollars. And that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:17):
Takes that right out of the goodbye. He takes it
right out of the church, the bucket what do they
call it? The collection place? Oh, not losing all of
my terminology. I mean Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 (01:25:31):
That's the guys. Jesus Christ, like.

Speaker 2 (01:25:34):
Jesus can see and hear you if you're trying to
raise people in church, clearly, yeah, you fucking lunative.

Speaker 1 (01:25:40):
Yeah. So it's now alleged that the district attorney, that
the district attorney at the time and church leaders cut
a deal to stop the investigation into John Fight to
protect the reputation of the church. Also most elected officials
at the time, and it's the Hilda Hill, Hildego County
where cass click mostly elected leaders.

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):
Yeah, and it was at a time when none other
than fucking Senator John F. Kennedy is running for the
present for president that year, who is a fucking Catholic.
That's right, it's he's the only He's there's never been
a Catholic president before. He's the there's only one other
Catholic that had ever been a nominee for president in

(01:26:22):
one of the major parties.

Speaker 1 (01:26:23):
He had lost, so and An was doing I don't remember.
I didn't even write it down.

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
That wasn't don't think I wouldn't have known.

Speaker 1 (01:26:34):
And anti Catholic prejudice is fucking big time. So they're like,
we need Kennedy to win. We're all fucking Catholics, and
let's not give them a reason to hate Catholics.

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):
Oh okay, So like political for political cos yeahing JFK
being fucking elected. Wow, And like you know, it's Texas.
It's a big fucking place. God, that's so funny to think.
I just always said, it's just my own weird bias.
Like I I used to think everyone was Catholic when
I was a kid, that I just assumed everyone was Catholic.

Speaker 1 (01:27:05):
Was there a lot of well you went to a
Catholic school.

Speaker 2 (01:27:09):
I went Catholic school, but also our town was just
small and mostly Christian, Although then later on I learned
that there was a big bunch of Pedalma was like
one of the biggest receivers of of immigrants after World
War two of Jewish people who are running from the

(01:27:33):
war refugees.

Speaker 1 (01:27:36):
Thank you. Where do they live now? They still live there.

Speaker 2 (01:27:40):
There's Jewish there's a couple of temples in pedal Yeah,
because I think one or two of the families had
like chicken farms, so they're like, everybody, go out and
work on go work on the chicken ramps.

Speaker 1 (01:27:50):
Very cool. Yeah, yeah, interesting. That could be a lie. No, no,
you said it. No, I believe it.

Speaker 2 (01:27:58):
I'm almost positive. I read that it's true. It feels
so true, it feels really good in my heart. Great, Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:28:05):
So basically that means no murder charges are ever filed
against father. Fight and shortly after the killing, the church
transfers him to a far away monastery. So in the
sixties he spent some time at a treatment center for
troubled priests in New Mexico and at monasteries in multiple states.
Hold the phone, please, I will not I want to

(01:28:28):
go to a treatment center for troubled priests and kick
them all in the deck. Right. The horror movie that
needs to be written out of that. I mean, like
the children come and attack and kill them all. Oh
my god, it's like the corn. But add a fucking
monastery for troubled quote troubled trouble priests, where it's revenge,
the children come out of the fields. It's called in

(01:28:50):
troubled priests. You're in trouble. You're in trouble. I heard
what you did this past summer, right, said Jesus, said
Jesus to the lord that's fucked up whom Everyone in
that neighborhood where that place was, it was just like
move away. Well remember when we watched what was the

(01:29:11):
really great documentary on Netflix over the summer, Keepers, Yeah,
and they and he went and visited the house where
all the priests had gotten sent to and they lived
in their were own child molusters and shit. Yeah. Keepers
is still fucking great. Everyone should watch it. It's so good. Listen.
If you want to have a binge weekend of terrible shit,
you should watch deliver Us from Evil, which you you

(01:29:34):
need to watch. It's historical information that you need to
know about. It's just fucking life lessons and you just
need to like calm your pessimism a little bit optimism
I's gonna say.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
Well it also there's it's that thing of it feels
like a very new cultural thing where it's like everybody's
got to get real with the fact that that true
sociopas and psychopaths move in this world in exactly these
unexpected ways. They are baseball coaches, they are priests, They move.

Speaker 1 (01:30:06):
Into their they manipulate, and they're good at it. They're
good at it. They're not And you need to get
okay with that. Yes, you got you got to if
you are a single parent, you got to keep your
eye double peeled, you got to triple check all the people.

Speaker 2 (01:30:18):
That want to be in your childhood life, all that stuff,
which we're saying that to people who know it by heart.
I mean like that's yeah, but.

Speaker 1 (01:30:25):
You forget that shit, man, Like when it's you and
your people and this you know, a guy you're dating. Yeah,
of course it's fine. You know what I mean. It's like,
of course you don't think about it in terms of
your own life. You think about it outside of you.

Speaker 2 (01:30:37):
Yes, it's just so it's I remember reading that Sports
Illustrated thing about how many baseball coaches, like little league coaches,
were pedophiles and it's just the most frightening and insane thing.
I want to read that. You got to read it.
It's it's insane. I'm pretty sure was the cover Sports
Illustrated like ten years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:30:57):
Oh my god, I need to read that. It's so
crazy because it's and they're they're in the lives. They're
right there all the sports and everything's dude in sports
and couldn't be safer in games, and we need to
go to this and.

Speaker 2 (01:31:07):
Practices and then they then that's how they select the
ones who don't have anybody that's going to come and
beat the shit out of them if they do anything
to the kid. They like, that's how they spot vulnerable
children and people who are I mean, it's just the
most fucked up thing.

Speaker 1 (01:31:21):
Very awful.

Speaker 2 (01:31:24):
Also, Okay, also the movie Spotlight, which came out recently amazing,
is about that too. So watch so have a nice
binge weekend and then watch bobs Burgers and Big Mouths
God to get yourself to feel better.

Speaker 1 (01:31:37):
Yes, big mouth is amazing. Big Mouths so good. Okay,
New Mexico Monasteries. Oh, here's fun at one point, here's fun.
Here's here's fun. Here's fun at one point, He served
as a supervisor charged with clearing priests for assignments to churches.
So the priests who got sent to the fucking you're

(01:31:57):
you're a terrible person. Get out of this town. They're
going to fucking murder you. Yeah, the attempted rapist priest,
uh huh they sent into this these places and his monasteries,
and our fucking friend John Fight was on the fucking clearing.

Speaker 2 (01:32:08):
House to let them go back into the goddamn world. Good,
this motherfucker healthy. Yeah, just good decisions all around.

Speaker 1 (01:32:15):
Yeah, being made everybody at every level. We have one
open seat. Who should we fill with? John Fight? Wait?
Is the devil not available? Okay? Then right. So one
of the men that he held clear for parish was
James Porter, who isn't the guy from deliver Us from
Evil but could be a child molester convicted of assaulting

(01:32:36):
more than a hundred victims, who was a priest. He
was like, get them back in there. Yeah, you're in
the game. Yeah, fucking dick. Okay. John Fight left the
priest had in nineteen seventy two and moved to Phoenix,
worked as an insurance salesman, got married, had kids and grandkids,
lives a fucking normal, goddamn life.

Speaker 2 (01:32:55):
WHOA.

Speaker 1 (01:32:56):
Meanwhile, Irene's parents, Nick and Josephine Garza, they both passed
away in the nineties without ever seeing anyone prosecuted for
Irene's murder. But they were assured by people in the
church that father Fight, who they always fucking suspected, would
be punished by the church if they found out anything
had been had been done, and they were assured that

(01:33:20):
this was a bigger sentence handed than any court could
hand down. And so they're like, okay, great, because they
still fucking believe in the Catholic Church because they were
fucking Catholics. Well yeah, so April two thousand and two,
let's jump ahead, okay, all right, forty two years after
the murder of Irene Garza, a former monk named Dale Tashni,
who had left the priesthood more than thirty years earlier

(01:33:42):
to marry, suddenly he gets a fucking conscience. He says
that in the summer of nineteen sixty three, he was
asked to counsel John Fight while while John stayed at
the monastery where this guy Dale was a fucking priest monk.
During their six months of counseling. John Fight told Tashni

(01:34:05):
of the night that Irene died. This guy called the
fucking investigator and was like, let me tell you something.
He told him that father Fight had asked her to
come to the church rectory and had heard her confession.
And after the confession he had restrained Irene, maybe bound
and gagged her. He had fondled her breasts, and before

(01:34:27):
he returned to the sanctuary to hear confessions, he had
moved her to the rectory basement, and later that evening
he moved her to another location. Then on Easter Sunday,
so she's still alive. Then on Easter Sunday he put
Irene in a bathtub and placed a bag over her head,
and as he was leaving the bathroom, he heard her say,

(01:34:48):
I can't breathe, I can't breathe. And then Tashni said,
when he came back later on that day or early evening,
he found her dead in the bathtub. And then that
night he put her in a car and took her
and dropped her affel along a roadside where there was
a canal. Tashi had kept it to himself out of

(01:35:13):
a sense of a religious obligation. For more than four decades.
He didn't tell anyone.

Speaker 2 (01:35:18):
It's like he confessed to him, and you can't the
in terms of being a priest, that hears confession, you're
not allowed to repeat it.

Speaker 1 (01:35:27):
I mean, I feel so grateful that he came forward
and said stuff. But at the same time, it's like someone,
this person, this man murdered this woman. It doesn't that's
then that's not a priest. Then that's not a priest anymore.
The man who murdered someone is not doesn't get to
have that No, but everybody gets it. It's not just

(01:35:48):
for priests.

Speaker 2 (01:35:49):
It's that's the that's like they're talking to God through
you and you don't get to intervene.

Speaker 1 (01:35:54):
Yeah, because they're asking for forgiveness.

Speaker 2 (01:35:56):
And so you have to be that no matter what
somebody says to you as a priest, do you have
to say you're forgiven. He was counseling him, so it
wasn't confession. I mean, I don't know if technically yeah,
well I bet you they'd say it was just for
the protection, right. But the other thing is, wasn't she
found brutally beaten?

Speaker 1 (01:36:13):
Yeah? So that's bullshit. I was beaten and raped while unconscious,
so clearly he left some shit out or they just
tell you everything in this article. Yeah, that's too much.

Speaker 2 (01:36:22):
But I would bet you that. Like he's basically saying, well,
I just did.

Speaker 1 (01:36:27):
A couple away and she died, and then she's so,
I mean, it's unfortunate.

Speaker 2 (01:36:32):
Like he's basically telling the story to this other priest like,
too bad that happened, as opposed to you finally fucking
attack this woman.

Speaker 1 (01:36:39):
Well, one of the things that Tashne said was he
didn't show what I would consider to be compunction or
sorrow or grief or anything like that. So he had
kept it too himself. And then he at this point
in two thousand and two, weeys in his seventies and
he had a change of heart and he was like
I'll fucking testify, like let's do it. Wow Wow, which

(01:37:00):
is incredible. So Texas Rangers then begin to reinvestigate the case.
When he's contacted, Fight, who's now sixty nine year olds,
says that man doesn't exist anymore and he won't say
anything else.

Speaker 2 (01:37:13):
Like the man who raped and murdered a woman. Uh huh,
Yeah he does, dude, Yeah he does. Sorry, he's in you.

Speaker 1 (01:37:19):
So Rangers also interviewed father O'Brien, who back then was like,
I saw scratches on his hands. And he tells the
rangers that a few months after the murder fight, he
had confronted fight about whether he had killed Irene, and
the priest had told him everything. So he too was like, yep,
I know everything. I'll fucking testify. Oh shit, and yeah,

(01:37:41):
he'll tell everything. So and I would say this too.
This was back I think that people very rarely broke that.
Like if I'm telling you, if I'm giving you confession,
you're like, basically you have to forgive me the end.
You don't get to say anything that's in like you know,
police TV show true anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:38:00):
Well, no, I'm saying I think back then, no one
would ever break it, whereas nowadays, I think it's like
now everyone's seeing the reason that that rule was put
into place maybe not have been for the best reason, right,
or that there were many more people that would exploit
it than anyone would explact.

Speaker 1 (01:38:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 (01:38:20):
So even Catholic defensive. Sorry, that's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:38:25):
So then in July two thousand and two, the Brownsville
Herald ran a front page story on Irene's murder and
the suspicion about John to fight, and so Hildego County
District Attorney Renee Guerrera was asked if he planned to
pursue an indictment in the case, because they were like,
we have all this fucking evidence now, including two people
who he told murdered Irene, and they're willing to testify.

(01:38:47):
And this guy Renee was like, can it said quote,
can it be solved? Well, I guess if people leave
that pigs can fly anything as possible. And then he said,
why would anyone be haunted by her death? She died,
her killer got away. So he fucking flippantly who is
this guy, this guy Renee Guerrera, He's a fucking Hildigo.
No wait, he'll hidalgo, thank you. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:39:11):
I only say that because of the movie starring Vigo
Mortenson about him and his horse.

Speaker 1 (01:39:16):
He'll Hidalgo, Hidalgo, Yeah, thank you Jesus m Yeah. So
at the time, so then he got all this negative
publicity and he's like, okay, fine, uh sorry he was
the prosecutor, though he was the district attorney. Oh okay, okay,
So he got all this negative publicity because her fucking
family's still alive. Her parents aren't, but the rest of
her family's like, we fucking care that she died. Yeah,

(01:39:37):
so he in two thousand and four, he asked he
has two of his prosecutors present the evidence to a
grand jury to indict John Fight, but they don't fucking
call either of those priests to testify, the ones who
he told that he killed them. And so, of course,
in two thousand and four, the jury declined to indict
him and no build the case. So that was the
chance to fucking finally before John Fight dies, to get

(01:40:01):
him held responsible for the murder of Irene. And those
two priests had said that they would testify, they wanted to,
They were waiting by the fucking phone to be called
up to testify, and they just didn't do it. They
didn't call them. And it turns out, of course, Rene
Guerrera was Catholic. Yeah right, Yeah, So ten fucking years later,
in twenty fourteen, there's a district attorney's race in Hidalgo

(01:40:26):
County and finally Rene gets fucking beat by Ricardo Rodriguez.
And in his race, he promised he would re examine
the case of elected Oh, so fucking Ricardo is elected. Wow. Great.
They spent a year and two months re examining the
case and all the evidence, and more than fifty seven
fucking years after the murder of Irene Garza, eighty three

(01:40:50):
year old John Fight is finally fucking arrested in Arizona
for first degree murder. Former monk Dale fucking Tashne eighty
eight years old testified eighty eight years old.

Speaker 2 (01:41:03):
Now when you say monk, does it say anything else
about that him being a monk.

Speaker 1 (01:41:08):
There's just a photo of him with that hair, you
know what I'm saying. He's got the robes and the hair,
and you're like, oh, honey, you must have been dedicated,
because my god, he looks like he's on spaceballs. I'm
just I'm just trying to figure out what that is.

Speaker 2 (01:41:24):
If he's like a Christian brother, what like his specific
deal was.

Speaker 1 (01:41:28):
I'm sure it's very involved, but I don't understand. Okay,
I just knew that it was like a monk, but
he was like but it was like priests were hanging
out with him. Yep. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:41:39):
He's just in a different kind of like set up
Catholic thing. Yeah, Okay, maybe he made wine.

Speaker 1 (01:41:46):
The hair though. Yep, my god. So Dale, what's up?
Eighty eight year old Dale testifies against him December eighth?
What's the date today? The twelfth? Yes, December fucking eighth,
twenty seventeen, and four days ago. Oh shit. Yeah. After
a six day trial in the Hidalgo County Courthouse in Edinburgh,

(01:42:07):
a jury fucking convicted John fight whoa now eighty five
year old ex priest, of murdering Irene Garza, and he
receives a life sentence in prison. Oh my god, Yeah,
this just fucking came out. That's incredible. Nineteen sixty has
when happened in fucking what are we? Twenty seventeen? Yeah,

(01:42:29):
she was still alive today. Irene would be eighty three
years old. In a letter written to a friend right
before she died, she stated that she's happier than she's
ever been and said to her friend, I remember the
last time we talked, I told you I was afraid
of death. Well I think I'm cured. You see, I've
been going to communion in mass daily and you can't
imagine the courage and faith and happiness it's given me.

(01:42:52):
Oh and uh, that's the story of the murder of
Irene Garza by motherfucker or John Fight.

Speaker 2 (01:43:01):
Wow, I can't believe that ended. Well, I know, right,
it never happens in the Catholic Church. Every time it's
a Catholic Church story. Yeah, it frustrates you. It discuss
you cold cases too, goes crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:43:16):
Yeah. So she's like in one of those walkers in
court that are also chairs. Yeah you know that, you see, Yeah,
trying to look all old. And he a couple of
things he said when he got arrested were like, I
don't understand this has happened in nineteen sixty Like his excuse,
I don't understand this was happening now, this was so
long ago. And this woman says to him, there's no
statute of limitations on murder. Like he's trying to play

(01:43:38):
it off like this was so long ago. Yeah, why
are you guys making a big deal about it?

Speaker 2 (01:43:42):
Yeah, exactly, he's acting like a confused old man. Yeah,
when he's a fucking sexual predator and murderer. Well, also,
it doesn't matter how old he is. It doesn't matter
how old he is, It doesn't matter what his opinion
about is a grandpa or or hikes for that shion
is not relevant. You already were confused. That's why you're
like this. So your opinion about it and how you

(01:44:03):
see it is not valid because according to you, no
one's life matters, and any woman is a woman gets
the grass sixty who cares. No, No, A lot of
people care. A lot of people care, and a lot
of people are tired of people like that guy exploiting
positions of not just power, but automatic trust.

Speaker 1 (01:44:25):
Yeah, it's that thing that's what's so gross.

Speaker 2 (01:44:28):
Can you imagine going into a church or like, I
can't imagine going into a church and getting a creepy
vibe of like, oh no, the guy that works here
is scaring me. Yeah, that's the exact opposite of how
churches are supposed to work.

Speaker 1 (01:44:42):
Well, there should be no such thing as automatic trust. Yeah,
I mean it sucks, but even you know, you're fucking
pediatrician or you're fucking you know, you're what's it called anything,
There's just there's no such thing anymore, right, and there
never was. We just let it happen, right, Yeah, it's

(01:45:02):
okay to be.

Speaker 2 (01:45:04):
Just be aware, be careful, and thank God for the
Internet and checkie checkie, checkie check everyone's fucking everything record.

Speaker 1 (01:45:12):
Yeah, wow, that's amazing. Yeah, such a good story. Thank you,
Hi Hi. Tenth episode.

Speaker 2 (01:45:23):
I know, yeah, there's there's a lot of feelings.

Speaker 1 (01:45:30):
Okay, we're back. What are the updates for this case?
John Fate was incarcerated at the wj Estelle unit in Huntsville,
Texas and died of natural causes on February twelfth, twenty
twenty so pretty recently actually on Buried Bombs. Also, Kate
and Paul cover the murder of Irene Garza on their
episode called Sacred Heart.

Speaker 2 (01:45:52):
So a lot of Kate Winkler Boston getting in there
and being professional. Yeah. Well it's a Texas story, so
it's probably one that would be closer to her heart. Okay,
well it's time to get into good things of the week.
Then let's do it.

Speaker 1 (01:46:07):
Anything good this week for you.

Speaker 2 (01:46:10):
I guess it was so fun to do those live
shows we had. I had such a good time I
did to speaking for you. But like, it's just such a.

Speaker 1 (01:46:19):
Joy to have that be a job. It's insane because
I'm always prepared.

Speaker 2 (01:46:24):
Like I really hate leaving my house and I hate
leaving my dogs, and I get a little stressy for that,
but it's always just that we have so much fun,
and then there's people that just like give us really
nice presents and say really nice things. One thing that
I guess gets me is a lot of people talk
to me about my mom.

Speaker 1 (01:46:42):
Yeah, and it's like's brought up a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:46:44):
It gets brought up a lot of like it's a
young women who are like, I'm a psych nurse or
my minding to be a nurse. But there's a lot
of my mom passed away recently too, and you really
helped me.

Speaker 1 (01:46:55):
Yeah, just by talking about it. Yeah, exactly. It's it's
I don't know, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:47:01):
You know, it's cool when we get to go out
and hear from people about like the meaning of things,
because to us it's like I just go, oh, well,
I just did a very interesting murder case in a
mediocre manner in our way, and then we talked about
a bunch of bullshit. It's like, I don't know, it

(01:47:22):
just is very meaningful. It's just like such a nice feeling. Yeah,
you know, we have like lots of friends.

Speaker 1 (01:47:27):
We don't know. As we say at the end of
every show, it's like we thank you guys for letting
us do this. As a job. The two of us
are fucking blown away by the fact that our lives
have turned into this incredible thing because of this podcast
that we started on a fucking whim.

Speaker 2 (01:47:44):
It's super weird. It's super weird. It is and fun.
We didn't expect this. We are in awe of all
of you guys who are like these incredible people and.

Speaker 1 (01:47:56):
Like showing up.

Speaker 2 (01:47:57):
Like I barely leave my house to do anything, so
when I stand there and like, it's like a theater
full of people like went and bought tickets and showed
up and some have signs and some have uh, it's
just crazy funny shirts they made, yeah, cookies and crafts
and mugs.

Speaker 1 (01:48:15):
Yeah, it's just really I just feel super lucky. Every
time we come home from a trip or anytime we
go on a fucking trip for the show. It's it's
mind boggling. Yeah, it's so fun and uh yeah, so
I think we're about to end the year with one
hundred episode. Yes, so I guess maybe it's just thank
you guys for letting us do this incredible thing. This

(01:48:35):
year has been fucking bananas an awesome and we're honored.

Speaker 2 (01:48:39):
It's incredible. It's beautiful. We fucking appreciate it so much,
we really do. And thank you, thanks for I don't know,
thanks for being thanks for thanks for liking it. Yeah,
it's weird. It is, what's your thing, that's the same things.
I'm gonna go Sama. Are we gonna do sharess? We're
gonna shame, shame it. We're gonna shame.

Speaker 1 (01:49:00):
We're a shame share shame share Okay, cool, I love it.
I do show. Okay, we're back, we are back. I
think it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:49:12):
I know you have a different opinion than me about
the live shows. So is that because I'm just my
good thing of the week is I'm grateful that I
get to do live shows.

Speaker 1 (01:49:20):
I love the live shows. I don't like the travel
touring part. Oh oh gosh. Actually, and that's not even
true because Vince gets to come. So it's great, like
we've fine tuned it now we have, it's gotten much better.

Speaker 2 (01:49:33):
But it was really fun when it was the three
of us on this adventure.

Speaker 1 (01:49:37):
It's totally fun.

Speaker 2 (01:49:38):
It's just got exhausting to come home, then have two
or three days getting ready to leave again, and then
another crazy five days of traveling and working and you know,
and it kept going like it wasn't. We would plan
like a three month tour and then it would get
tacked on and tacked on. So we started really becoming
I hate to say it, road dogs.

Speaker 1 (01:50:00):
I hate to say it. You'd love to say it.
I did love to say it, and I love to
do it. It's I don't know what point we were like, hey,
maybe we should stop looking for the cheapest hotels and
actually stay somewhere that we are excited about, like give
us something to look forward to.

Speaker 2 (01:50:14):
Yes, it was the hotel near the airport in Palm
Beach that the entire hotel smelled like chlorine. And that's
when you said it first, because I wanted to say it,
but I was like, well, I'm I will spend money
like and you go, We're never we're always going to
stay in nice hotels now, because that's too makes it
too hard.

Speaker 1 (01:50:32):
I became a diva about it. I was like, if
we're going to do this, I want there to be
this like little shining part of it that we're excited
about where there's not a strong smell that keeps you
up at night. Yeah, and like shining fucking bones in
the hallway. That place was legendary. Yeah, it was great.
It was just a pool. We were hallucinating. We're just

(01:50:54):
sleeping in a pool.

Speaker 2 (01:50:56):
Okay, So this episode we entitled shin Kick, but today
if we were naming it, we could call it, of course,
Sounds of the Podcast Train, which is how we started
being the podcast that hilarious, The Sounds of the podcast Train,
clumsily clumbering, legendary. Also, wing Dings was made for us,

(01:51:19):
was very true, of course, all up in that tomb
where I'm describing to you.

Speaker 1 (01:51:24):
About Easter, has that ever been said all up in
the history of history about Jesus? I mean, I don't
think so.

Speaker 2 (01:51:32):
It's possible that maybe some Christian rappers did it in
the nineties.

Speaker 1 (01:51:36):
Sure could be. I'm ripping them off. Yeah, all right,
Well that's it, right, I think that's this week's episode
of rewind. We have done it. Let's say goodbye, and
let Elvis say goodbye from the podloft in twenty seventeen. Well,
then stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye bye, Elvis.

(01:52:00):
My cookie. That was a definitive yess my cookie. Cookie
f

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Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 99: Shin Kick

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Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

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