Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 101: Live At The Majestic Theatre in Dallas - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:18):
Hello and welcome Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
This is a show where we step into the past
through our old episodes, and you emerge from the other
side with brand new feelings and case updates.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
Today we're rewinding the episode one oh one, which we
named live at the Majestic Theater in Dallas.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Creativity Never ends.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
This episode originally came out on December twenty eighth, twenty seventeen.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
A million years ago.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Just to go back for one moment, Oh my god,
let's listen to the intro of episode one oh one.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
M what's that Dallas? Wow, I'm pretty sure I saw
UFO up there. Yeah, did you see that? It's an
assortment of lights. A lot going on. There's so much.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Oh, I knew, it's so exciting. This is our third
and best show in Dallas.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yes, Oh I ruined it. My pockets out. I ruined it.
It's no longer the best show. Let's let's start over. Yeah,
damn it. Take it from the top.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
This shirt needs to be burned. Let's just say that. Yeah.
I didn't even give a passover. No, I love it.
There's hair, there's the tears, sweat of others, and myself combined,
I realized all the clothes I brought uh to Texas

(02:07):
smell like barbecue.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
And I haven't even been in a barbecue restaurant. It's
not like I've been in a restaurant. It's even things
backstage and in the hotel room.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, and yet.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
And also where was the picture that you sent me today?

Speaker 3 (02:27):
I sent her a photo of a troth of mac
and cheese close up, very close up. It was a
close up that was actually just Whole foods. But I
just thought it would be a good photo because we
didn't like text that morning. We didn't text it all day,
and I was like, this will be a funny thing
just to send some one RANDOMLNTA. But then after that,

(02:49):
fuck you guys. Okay, did you just say fuck you?

Speaker 1 (02:52):
Guys? Said Dallas.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
They am I mad at you?

Speaker 1 (02:58):
No fuck comment you guys? Okay?

Speaker 3 (03:02):
No, Because all right, I love I love La. However
I had to move somewhere. It would be a place
that has a really fucking good barbecue in a gas station.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
Would that gas station be our friend Bucky's gas station? Yeah,
that's right, we know the lingo. Now we can fucking
speak your language. Yep. Bucky Nuggets one thousand.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, I hate those two today?

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Oh so good? How can you not? I mean, it's
like cotton candy in your mouth.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
But beavers, but beaver's don't stop this. This is supposed
to be the best show.

Speaker 4 (03:47):
Was it really?

Speaker 1 (03:47):
At the gas station?

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yeah, there's a fucking just whatever gas station and then
there's a barbecue place.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
On a drive through.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
In the gas station, and it was like, really good barbecue.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
We're you used to a sleep?

Speaker 3 (04:01):
And then I took it back to the hotel room
and sat and ate barbecue in the hotel room. Yeah,
and well Vince watched football and I was just like, this.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
Is my life. Then I loved my life. This is
the life.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Free glass of rose from the hotel the downstairs hotel area.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Oh did you go mingle? I know, I fucking grab
a glass of one up there to eat my barbecue
in peace.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
You're like, do you have any pictures or large containers?

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Maybe a flower vase that I could take with me.
I don't want to mix with these beanfu.

Speaker 3 (04:31):
And did really disappoint me in our marriage though, because no.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
And like this is you know, he's amazing.

Speaker 3 (04:38):
But I went to the They're like they pour you
glasses like rose it's like two to six rose hour,
whatever the fuck. And then the guy goes to pour
two glasses and he goes, oh, no, just one, I
don't want one, And I was like.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
No, dude, you get a second glass for me. Team
playing yeah at all times. But it probably was a
sign of your drinking too much. Do you think he
was quietly judging you?

Speaker 3 (05:00):
Now he would not.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Now with counterpoint, Vince, you just just talk massive ship
on him and then I'd like hand the microphone over. Well,
that's interesting. I have nothing to say about it.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Maybe Vince does. Finally on the ground.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
There he's down in the he's down in a little
opera spot where you call for your line down in
the old This is an old theater reference.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
I'm making.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Only certain people understand. I want to know what I did. Yes,
I got a massage in the hotel and fancy right,
it's amazing. It's so much easier to communicate with you.
And we have this crab like clasp on each over

(05:48):
intensity of that. Yes, it's a conduit. So I called down.
I look, this is brilliant. If you have a business
that has offered two things that don't go together put
them on the same menu, because as I was ordering breakfast,
I was like, oh, massages. It was right fucking there,

(06:08):
which I've never seen before. And I'm so smart. I
was like, I want oatmeal. Oh, and I want someone
to rub my back.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
And at this place they have four hand massage, which
means two people massage you at one time.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
I feel like that, that's a creepy way to say that.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Fourhand massage.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
What isn't a creepy way to explain what that might be?

Speaker 1 (06:33):
I feel like, hey, two people massage you at the
same time.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
Okay, four hands from who.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Knows where, coming up out of in the ground. They're
all strangely silver and gray. Don't worry about it. Your
face down.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
Yeah, what species of hands are we talking about? But
two people?

Speaker 2 (06:54):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Interesting? You say that monkey hands.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
That's when you read this small branch monkey and raccoon hands.
So one's too small and one's too strong and.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
Could kill you.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
That'd be pretty cute, sweet until you die.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Right. I am so catholic.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
I could not order the forehand massage. I was like,
that's not right. I can't I can't ask for that.
That's too much enjoyment. In this life. Who am I?

Speaker 3 (07:27):
I think that's the perfect way though, to like treat
yourself without guilt is always have one thing that's too much.
So like even if you want, like, well, I'm not
going to get a Lexis, I'll just get a what's
one step down from Lexus?

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Oh, clearly it's it's a Dodge charger.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yes, but what you really wanted was the Dodge charger
to begin with.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Oh, you've inside your mind you're doing all of this,
or someone on the street to yourself, okay, writing it
on paper, or just this is a mental situation.

Speaker 3 (07:56):
Can your Jewish friend tell you that you're worth it
and you deserve it?

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Come on, because that's how we are.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
That's our new thing. That's our new campaign. Everyone get
a Jewish friend because she'll.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
Say, you know, I think I can.

Speaker 3 (08:10):
I can justify any purchase for anyone in a way
that makes you like proud, Like, yeah, you're right, I
should get that, Alexa. I don't know, right, I should
get a raccoon palmisan.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
I deserve deserve it. She's right.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
I work hard, imagine because you've seen raccoons wash their
food right, and it's so thorough and fast.

Speaker 3 (08:35):
A little.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
They do that a little, but it's on your shoulder.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
And they stare at you. Did ever tell you about
that time?

Speaker 1 (08:46):
I thought? This was right before I.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Got my dog George, and I was here. I was
by myself in my house, and I would hear shit
every night and just be like, here we go.

Speaker 4 (08:54):
This is it.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
I knew it. Here we go every fucking night.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
That's when I started sleep in front of the TV,
because anytime I would go into my bed there would
be some weird noise. I'd be like, great dead, I
had that party tomorrow, but now I'm going to be murdered.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
So but I always knew I was.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
You know that it was probably just all that shit
they say, the house settling, or a man living in
your attic, or whatever.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
The things people tell you.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, but this one night I hear a sound that
I swear to God.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
This sound.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
What I pictured in my mind when I heard it
was someone through an old fashioned word processor against the
back wall of my house.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
I don't know why, but that's exactly what. It sounded like,
a huge crash, a crash.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
With plastic involved, like an outdated electronic machine crash.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
It was like one of the guys from office space instead.

Speaker 1 (09:51):
Of this, they were like this. It was that feel
that's scary. It fucking scared the shit at me.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Right, so, oh to check, and we had we used
to have a cat m I never talk about him.
His name is Angus, don't mention it to me, my
cat Angus, who was fairal awful, long hair, which is
the fucking worst, and a pet of any breed. Mean

(10:22):
he I watched him almost scratch off.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
I've told you that story where he's hiding.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
There was like something leaned against the wall, and my
eighteen month old niece went and was like, let's stay
over here, and right as she leaned down the cat,
Paul was like this with all nails out toward face.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
Yeah, and that's.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
What Pete Rana just picked her up really fast. So
it was oh, it was like one of those like
who it was a matrixy this but she wasn't leaning.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
It was just guys. Anyway.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
I can't remember the story I was telling. Oh, because
so we had this built in cat door. Oh no,
don't do that right, So in my mind I'm like, well,
someone with the longest arm ever reached through it, and
it's like that's already.

Speaker 3 (11:05):
What I was thinking, was it, Yes, soone whilse someone
with an art long arm could just help come in
and lock it.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
The long arm bandit. It's coming.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
It's a it's a raccoon that grew up in your
nuclear test facility.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
That's not his faulty has those long arms. One long arm,
just the one. So there's a crazy limp. Yeah, the
fastest hands. Okay.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
So I get over there, and of course I think
it's someone trying to like physically break into the back door.
And when I get to the back door, I flip
the porch light on and there's a raccoon who is
just coming back out of the cat door, so like
he had gone. He had gone I think, halfway into
it and then come back out really fast. He must

(11:55):
have heard a noise or something.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, And so when I'm standing.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
There, he flicked the light on, and the raccoon is
like trying to figure out a way to go back,
like reapproach it. And when the light flicks on, he
goes like this, he goes and then just fucking stares
me down, like oh you're up and yeah, like I
thought you were away. He's like staring at me, and

(12:23):
so I kick the door because of course, at this point,
I'm so angry and scared and feel so.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Stupid that that assholes way.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
I thought it was gonna murder me. So I kicked
the door so he'll go away. And he just goes
like this. He pulls these little hands and he sits
back on his haun. She's like, okay, lady, let's take
it easy.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
He's like, huh, okay, that's a stride.

Speaker 2 (12:47):
That's why she's not gonna let me have the garbage.
And I have to get it a different way.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
I want, I want. You want a raccoon? So you
want your own raccoon? Dude? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (13:00):
Short arms are long arms, surprise me. Okay, Christmas is
right around the corner.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
Everybody, so's honkah, Hey shitt.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
That's why you need a Jewish friend.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
You never think about honkah honkah sooner, it's more pressing.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
Got your Hanukah shopping done now? Texas? Uh, this is
my favorite murder. This is a murdered the podcast. That's
Karen Kiligera.

Speaker 3 (13:30):
This is Georgia Hartstark. Can we tell real quick we've
had some wardrobe issues. Oh yeah, I thought you.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
Were appointing at our feet.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
No, No, I'm just now I'm just doing things with
my body. I'm not I'm so I don't know what's
going on anymore. I'm so tired. And last night somebody
posted a great picture from the show, which was very sweet,
and they.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
People love to show us pictures of ourselves.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
I personally, but I understand, I understand it's not about me,
and whoever it was, it was somebody that was up
in this balcony.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
We see it because he is that the Queen of Spain. God,
they're right there.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
That's so funny. It might have been up one or
is there No, it's just that one. It seemed very high.
It could have been a bird's picture.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
But my I didn't die my roots before I left
for this trip because I was like, I'm just sticking
out a little bit right there. I look like I'm
balding just on my part, have tons of hair everywhere else.
But then that's sad, just only on the part.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
It's like, fucking, I don't.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
This is why you're not on Instagram and shouldn't be.
It's just you just are like, there's that problem area.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
What about the time we were in Australia, and I
showed Georgia a picture of myself and I was like,
because she's always like, give me take a picture.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
And I'm like no, But I stopped asking. She had to.
She had to think. How we worked.

Speaker 4 (15:09):
I to holdout this thing.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
It'd be so cute. Put her on her let's hold.

Speaker 4 (15:11):
Can I take a photo with this?

Speaker 1 (15:12):
No?

Speaker 2 (15:13):
Never so cute, not so cute. I'm almost fifty. I
shouldn't be here.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
What do you mean by hair on earth? No? No,
that's not true. It's what a great time we're all having.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
But I took this picture of myself and because I
was facing the window and it was like morning light,
there was this odd combination of things where it actually
was this fucking majestic picture of me that I ran
next door to your hotel room and I was like,
oh my god, look I actually took a good picture.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
It was like it was really weird.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
My hair is back and I didn't only make up
on but it somehow worked, and Georgia goes amazing, and
then she goes like does.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
And goes di do do do do do do.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
And puts all these filters on it. And then it
looked fucking incredible, And I go, what did you just do?

Speaker 1 (16:00):
And she's like, you don't know about filters. That's why
I don't like Instagram.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
I didn't like Instagram is because I didn't know everyone's
fucking cheating on there all the time.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
We're all cheating, My cats are cheating. Everything is cheating.
Didn't know fucking sunset.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
You're like, oh, I did, I guess I didn't see
that sunset tonight. It's gonna do nothing like that.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
It's even that so fucking asshole put a bunch of
filters on it.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
You mean all those gorgeous dinners that people have been
taking pictures of.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Have you seen unfiltered food?

Speaker 3 (16:34):
Ohone, no post photos of food unless you know how
to filter the shit out of those things.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
What a revelation. I'm just saying that for the other
people in the crowd who might not know that you
can fix your fucking face.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
It's such good news. It's such good news.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
Oh also, yeah, my god, should we sit down?

Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, we really should.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
Let's give the We're never going to have chairs like
these again, Let's give them a moment to shine. This
chair was made when Robert Wadlow, the tallest man in
the world. Got an office job at IBM, and he
demanded an aerogonomic chair.

Speaker 3 (17:19):
To sit in, you know, for when you want to
pretend like you work in a giant office.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yep, there you go.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
Who made this?

Speaker 3 (17:31):
I've never in my life I need it. Yeah, it's okay.
So then we climb in.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, all right, you got it. You got it.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
And now the pull inky and that's how you sit down.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
Oh in America just roke Karen.

Speaker 3 (18:04):
We had last night at the second show. The hometown
was like someone's mom, which was like always fun.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
I'm here with my fifteen year old daughter. She was
like the cutest thing, the best, the best, cutest.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
We always thought moms are mad at us. They're not
such good news.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
She was a Bible teacher in prison and she's like,
and then I found out what one of my favorite
students did and it was bad.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
She was the one who it was the girl who
hit the homeless man on the freeway. He got stuck
in her windshield and she drove home with him.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Remember that whole story. She taught her the Bible too late, right.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, you need to skip straight to the fucking repent
part because you're done.

Speaker 3 (18:48):
Yeah, you're done. No, So Karen stole her red black.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
She came up and she was like, we made these
and I was like, well that's mine now.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
I was like, you can make another one, right because
I can't. So thank you. Oh put it in our water?
Oh is this wrong?

Speaker 3 (19:15):
And we are back Hello, we're back here in good
old twenty twenty six.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
The thing I was talking about at the beginning of
that where I see a UFO. Do you remember the
inside of that theater? Yeah, so it's like it went
up so high because.

Speaker 3 (19:30):
Didn't the ceiling retract and it could be an indoor outdoor.

Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yeah, theater.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
So I think it just looked like there were like
almost like opera boxes that they went up ten stories.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
It was like fancy. It was big and it was fancy. Yeah.
I thought they were going to kick us out, but no, no,
they wanted us there. They did. Yeah, this is the
same place.

Speaker 3 (19:49):
And I think we talked about it before where the
driver picked up the wrong two girls at the hotel.
Our driver who was supposed to pick us up and
take us to the venue. These two girls were standing outside,
these two like girls who were going to the show. Yeah,
and he's so he says to them like, oh, you guys,
must you know, get in, I'll take you.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yeah, you're going over to the show? Yeah, it does
like hell yeah. And then halfway there they're like, wait,
it's so good not.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
I mean, the best misunderstanding did we how did we
meet them?

Speaker 3 (20:17):
Was it?

Speaker 1 (20:18):
Because we were still standing there waiting, We were like,
where the fuck are they? And they get out cracking up.
They clearly had a couple drinks already. It was. They
were just delightful and so funny.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
That's so Also, there were so many of those Texas
shows that I remember because stuff like that, it just
felt like there was more. I shouldn't compare it. We
always have amazing experiences, but for some reason, it's always
just like, wait, what.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
Surprise for us coastal elites out here in California. The
fact that Southern people listen to us is still shocking to.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Us shocking, it's thrilling.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
I Also, I love this where I shame Vince for
not saying yes to another glass of white like that.
To me, that's like such a relationship thing.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Mm hm.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
He thankfully does it now, but this was like almost
ten years ago. He didn't know yet, Like yeah, say
yes and then I'll pour it into mind.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
Give it to me.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
I was like, you have to perform tonight. Why don't
you not have two glasses of wine?

Speaker 2 (21:14):
I just need two small cups? Please please just let
me have them.

Speaker 3 (21:18):
Also, oh, the forehand massage. Oh my god, the first
time I'd ever heard that phrase. I still find it
like a really weird way to say.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
I got massaged by two people at the same time.
Just the hands, Like did the person have for it?
I still don't, I still can't.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
It was just the hands, which makes me laugh so hard.
The thing of what kind of hands? Yeah, raccoon hand.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
It's so cute stuff, so funny.

Speaker 2 (21:43):
What else I've actually since that time, I have gotten
a four handed massage and it was very presented in
a very like almost like it was spiritual.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
And this was like, oh, like like what's it called
when they like put their energy in yeah kind of
a thing.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yes, like like a healing was a healing I was
at a fancy place and they were it was a
healing vibe. But it was just almost like I felt
like for me, it felt like the most efficient way
to get super relaxed as quickly as possible and it
didn't feel as kind of like luxurious indulgent. Yeah, I'm

(22:18):
crazy as I was imagining.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
Well, twenty seventeen Karen wouldn't do a lot of things
that twenty twenty six Karen would do.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
Probably twenty seventeen Karen had just gotten out.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Of uh ye.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
Close foreclosure. Yeah right, I literally by the skin of
my teeth. Yeah, So there was a lot of things
that seemed crazy and indulgent at the time.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Like free wine at the hotel.

Speaker 3 (22:43):
Yeah, like we'd stay the kind of hotel that was
definitely in our era of like I'll do this, but
I've kind of stay at a nice hotel.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
You got to give me free wine at four pm
or whatever it is that they're going to offer a
massage or something, I'll take it.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
Oh and I just I'm.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Really proud because this is just proof that I've always
been talking about the world's time.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
This man Robert Wadlough.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah, from the beginning, it's like that thing of like
I like them first, you know, you sound like a
stuck up band guy, but stan him, I stand giants
and I always have.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
It's not a new part of my personality. And here's
the proof. Here's the proof.

Speaker 3 (23:14):
Thank god for this podcast, or people would call you
a poser when it comes to tall, giant people, right.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
The thing that doesn't exist really in our culture anymore,
that absolutely ruled our culture. Well, I mean that idea
of yeah, if you will not get clout yourself for
calling another person opposer.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
Right, Oh, I thought you meant giants that didn't exist. Oh,
we've gotten rid of almost all of them. Really, we've
really what's it called out?

Speaker 2 (23:41):
We worked him out, yeah, cycled him out.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
Cycled him out, agens.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
I'm very excited because this story that I told it
this life show is one of my favorite really true
crime stories ever.

Speaker 3 (23:52):
Yeah, oh my god, that's amazing. Let's get into it.
Let's listen to Karen's story about Terry Hoffman.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Okay, okay, I'm first this evening.

Speaker 3 (24:05):
Okay, okay, let's do this. This is a true crime
comedy podcast. It all you, all you strangers, thank you,
all you. And Steven's not here.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
Sorry, Yes, it's so disappointing.

Speaker 3 (24:20):
I know he's sending me photos of my cats, and
there was one photo that he sent it in I
said to myself.

Speaker 1 (24:27):
They look hungry. It was such an asshole. They look hungry.
They look hungry. She was like, don't they look hungry
in this picture? And I was like, mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
Started make us since they look hungry. It's hard to tell,
he said, yeah, hard to tell.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
The consummate politician. Well, could be, it couldn't be. Okay,
once again this story, and it seems like we're underwritten
by the magazine Texas Monthly, but we're not not being
paid by them in any way, but we get so
many amazing.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
Stories from them. For real. It didn't.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
It dawned on me the first night we were here
when I was looking up one of my stories and
there's a lot of people obviously that write for that magazine,
but there is a guy named Skip Hollandsworth that writes
tons of great It's always that guy.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
I just found out today when I was looking at
my story and used his also used his information that
he wrote a book.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
What's it about?

Speaker 3 (25:29):
It's about a serial killer in Austin, like the first
serial killer in Austin.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
Shit, oh, is it the Servant Girl Annihilator?

Speaker 3 (25:36):
I don't know. I just I did that one audible
and it's there. Okay, we're gonna I'm getting everyone downloaded
now let's blow the wi fi ut.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Okay, sorry, So this is another one that I found
searching Texas Monthly because you can go in. They have
like articles from back in the eighties. It's amazing. They
also somebody has done that thing where they make a
Google book out of the old magazine. So while I
was reading the article for this story, there were these
ads coming up on the side that were fuck. They

(26:07):
were from nineteen.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
Eighty two and they were amazing.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
What were they It was just a bunch of blonde
people being thin and rich all over all over the
Dallas Fort Worth area. Just you know, it's like always
that one lady with gold earrings and like kind of
a weird blonde haircut.

Speaker 4 (26:24):
That was like, I fucking love oil.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
No, they just drank oil at that point.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
It was just there's a lot of you know how
sometimes it's like beef, it's what for It's what's for dinner.
There's just there's commercials for things that is not a company.
It's just a concept.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Oh yeah, like milk or whatever. Yeah, yeah, milk, milk,
it's good for you. Bones. Okay. That Tom Kenny who
was on Mystery Show with me. It's one of.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
Hels he's also the voice of SpongeBob is one of
the most.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
His biggest His biggest thing was being on with you.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
That's right, right, It's what I meant first, because I'm
in it. But he's so brilliant and hilarious and he's
just standing in his stand upback where he pretended that
he was also hired by all those companies like the
Milk Board and the Beef Association or whatever, the Farmer's Association,
and so he would do alternative jingles for all of

(27:21):
those things, and that was like it was like milk
it's good for your bones, but singing it like a
rock star. And he also did one there's a restaurant
in La called Rosco's Chicken and Waffles.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
That's amazing, and he would go b School's Chicken and Waffles.
He's your chicken and a wabble connection sidebar Nations.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
I don't think you're allowed to do other people's acts
during your show.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
He doesn't need it.

Speaker 3 (27:54):
He's got all that SpongeBob money.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, that's right, he doesn't even know. You can assume
me your rich bastard.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Okay, Anyhow, the article I got almost everything, uh from
what I'm about to tell you, I'm essentially rereading you
this article and it is so fucking crazy and long
that I it's like, by the end, I was like scanning,
scrolling really fast. I'm like, don't look at the ads,
don't look at the people that are, you know, drinking

(28:21):
by a window.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
Just focus on the article.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
But it was called The Curse of the Black Lords
by Peter Elkind. There was also an article that I
looked at for a magazine called d Magazine.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Ask me too, because you look at that one. I
use both of those magazines too, so good.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
And that article is called the Rise and Fall of
a North Dallas Cult.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
By George Rodrige.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
And this, my friends, is the story of Terry Hoffman
and the conscious development cult.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Cults celts, celts, colp.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
This is one of the fucking craziest things I've ever
read about. And I can't wait to read more, Like
I want to read a whole book on this, because
this is straight up nutso and I cannot believe in
all the years, of all the twenty twenties and things
that we've all been watching for years and years, I've
never seen anything about this lot. It nutso Okay, So

(29:20):
we start now, yeah, crack that beer because this is
going to be long.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
I actually I want to start. I wonder if this
is the first picture. I wonder. Let's see.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
Uh, Okay, it wasn't shit, dye it?

Speaker 2 (29:41):
Okay, Here's how this article starts. And here it's such
a brilliant way to get into this story because it's
not at the beginning, which is always a good again
left turn. But this is basically how the cops found
out about this cult. It's Thanksgiving in nineteen eighty nine.
Didn't put yourself there. I'm fare so much hairs Oh
my god, all of it is. That's Aussie what do

(30:03):
you call it? Products?

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, that purple hairspray? Got it.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
It starts with the smell in an East Dallas neighborhood
of Lake Highlands.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
They love smells.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
They love the smell. Uh, it's so bad that the
neighbors call the cops. Firemen of their first on the scene.
They kick down the door, take a step into.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
The house, walk back out, and throw up on the
front lawn.

Speaker 3 (30:28):
Oh they always do that, but don't taint the crime scene.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
And or here's a tip to killers and bad people.
Walk outside. Just put that knife right there. On the
lawn right in the barfing arc.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yick. So then they have to put on.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
Their scott Air packs and which is like the masks
for firemen, and go into the house. The house is
filled with flies. Uh oh, clouds of flies. Oh oh,
the red flag.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
So far this house wet the bed. We'd know something bad.
What's happening In the back of the house.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Uh, they find former Southern Methodist University business professor David
Goodman and his wife Glinda, both forty eight. They have
both been shot with the gun directly against their skulls.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
So and they've been dead for over a month.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
Whoa uh, you guys mind your business here, Like nobody's
like that's right?

Speaker 1 (31:42):
How it fucking takes so bad?

Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (31:46):
Property, I respect it. Yeah, the property. Something goes down.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
Don't worry about it. We're raising flies. That's our choice.
It's what we get to do. I bought this property.
I paid taxes on it. There's a shooting gallery in
one corner of the room, which is a metal stand
with the paper targets. There's guns on the coffee table
and there's pellet guns leaned up against a wall.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Sounds chill. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
Uh, it was like a rumpus room man cave.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
So also there is an alarm clock at their feet.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Uh. Police and medical examiners conclude it's a murder suicide
or some kind of a you know, consensual double death. Jeez,
which is the name of my new band. I'm sorry, sorry.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
That's good. No, no, that's not no, no, no, no no,
there's my part up there.

Speaker 4 (32:43):
You guys.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
Uh, thanks, thank you, next thing you like scalp okay okay.
So so he was an investment advisor who owned his
own company.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
She kept his books.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
He'd been married three times, she'd been married once, and
friends and families said that they were deeply in love.
They were ecstatic in each other's company, which is the
nicest sentence.

Speaker 1 (33:12):
No suicide note of any kind.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Two dogs had been left in the backyard the whole time,
but they were alive, pacing, pacing, angry, and the second
eight food. They would forget about everything that happened to them.

Speaker 3 (33:26):
Some neighbor was just fucking throwing a handful of kiddle
over the back like I just.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah, that's that's nice. That's a good thought.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
And angry yet like caring neighbors, like here's a pork
chop these stupid ships. Okay, but then police find two
handwritten journals and they find out that they have been
planning their death for months. God told them to do it,
and God's spokesperson was the leader of a spiritual group

(33:57):
that they belonged to called Conscious Developant of Body, Mind
and Soul.

Speaker 3 (34:01):
Like if anyone didn't know that was a cult immediately by.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
That name anytime.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
It's like kind of vague words that suggest a slight
idea but won't get specific. Get out, get away, Okay,
they had been They had been advised to stay away
from family and friends because of their negative energy.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
Absolutely, and they also.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
Stipulated in their will that they were giving the leader
of Conscious Development of Body Mind and Soul half of
all their future earnings, which must have meant that their
company was doing really well and one hundred thousand dollars
like what they had in the bank, which was one
hundred thousand dollars. And the leader of Conscious Development of Body,
Mind and Soul was a woman named Terry Hoffman.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
Let's take a look. Oh God, damn it. She is
hey crazy, hey.

Speaker 3 (35:04):
Hey.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
That's such a good voice. So she sounds like hey, hey,
hey hey.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
Eye contact don't look away from my eyes. Don't look
away from my eyes. Y, would you like some juice?

Speaker 1 (35:21):
Do you want a fourhand massage?

Speaker 2 (35:35):
I bet you that was like a secret fear somewhere
deep inside where it's like, yeah, you're gonna get on
a table and the four hand massage is gonna start.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Boom. You're giving someone one hundred thousand dollars and you're dead.
You're in a fucking coult. You're in a cult and
you can't get out.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
And you're like, I love her, I love Terry, and
I want a shirt.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
Just like hers. There we go, thank you. Okay.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
So after they find this death reports of patterns of
deaths like these in the Conscious Development group, they don't
call it a called start up, and so police start
an investigation that year, and they find out that eight
members of this spiritual group had died prematurely eight and

(36:26):
three of them were sudden accidents, and five had committed suicide,
and two of the suicides had been Terry's husbands.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
Oh no, so they're like.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
It doesn't seem like a coincidence to us. And all
of the dead people had named Terry Hoffman as the
sole beneficiary of their estates.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
All of them.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
So Terry, of course it gets talked to by the police.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
And her explanation is very simple and clear.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
The people who joined her group, which was basically what
she said, is, you know, it is a kind of
a new age meditation group. They were all emotionally troubled
and invariably prone to take their own lives.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
You know how people are, you know, you just attract
a certain type.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yeah, meditation, new age suicide.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
It's very common. Yeah, be careful.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
So and she said they had left her their money
in the in exactly the same way that other people
leave their money to traditional churches.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
So what's the problem.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
And the cops were like, great, see you later now.
Very soon after the police investigation started, Terry's two step
children filed a lawsuit against her, saying that she had
con contributed to all those deaths through hypnosis, behavior modification,

(37:54):
mind control, and emotional manipulation.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
Aka Terry was the leader of her own death. Wa Yeah, okay,
seems so innocent.

Speaker 5 (38:03):
I know.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
Should we look at her again? Look at her again? Okay,
I don't see it. I don't see it. Okay.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
So we'll talk about Terry Hoffman's background. She was born
into a poor family. Her mother died of tuberculosis and
she was sent to an orphanage when she was nine
years old. So there she realized at the orphanage at
age nine that she was the reincarnation of Saint Teresa
of a Villa, who, as we all know, all the

(38:36):
good Catholics in the audience know that Saint Teresa was
a sixteenth century Spanish noun.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
I had no idea of any of this.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
I was like, shit, and they teach you guys a lot,
and we memorize it and we take it with us
during our lives. Saint Teresa was a Spanish nun who
had visions of the Holy Trinity.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
That's the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I know that one.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
Okay, So it's it's Monty Python, God.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
Pctical testicles, wallet watch.

Speaker 3 (39:05):
But.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
Spect you don't knows while I watch? Is this what
JS say about Catholics when we're not around?

Speaker 1 (39:15):
Is that from airplane? I think it's what Austin powers.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
No, it's all I'm glad I don't know that reference.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Then I got taught that at a young age. Okay,
I think my dad taught me.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
My Okay, good to know. I was much more concerned
but do you know the Holy Trinity? Because I was
trying to buck in, Terry Hoffman, you into my cults,
which is Catholicism.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
If you just have five minutes, I can tell you
about the Good Word. Okay.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
But Saint Teresa had these visions. She believed that she
was visited by the Holy Trinity. She also believed that
you could visit the Kingdom of Heaven like rooms in
a castle. So she would basically kind of like astral
project into heaven and she told everybody about it.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
So Terry is like me too.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
When she was eleven, she was adopted, but she ran
away four years later to Durrant or Durant, Oklahoma.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Durant, Oklahoma has been.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
Representing so fucking hard at our shows.

Speaker 1 (40:24):
Hi guys, okay, Hi, we had no idea. I had
no idea. Thanks for being here, thank you.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
So she runs away to marry an eighteen year old
truck diver named John Wilder.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
It's a truck diver. Will I say truck diver? Oh,
you've never heard of that.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
They drive trucks off of peers and then and in
the truck they go fishing.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
It's okay, I did the addict addicts which every show
this weekend.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
This is the weekend that we find out that we
have several speech impedimiles, and we're proud of that. Who
GIRs So Terry, now that she's a married old fifteen
year old, drops out of high school because bucket, and
she has a daughter in nineteen fifty four. She has
a son in nineteen fifty eight, another daughter in nineteen

(41:14):
sixty three. They all live on a farm in South
Dallas County. So her, of course, her husband, her eighteen
year old husband, goes away on these long haul trucker trips,
and so Terry begins to dabble in the occult.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
She reads books about Edgar Casey.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
And she takes classes in hypnotism. By the late sixties,
they'd moved to Farmer's Branch and good times like, ooh,
we're just yet small houses there were big we'll talk
about it later. So once they get there, she starts

(41:53):
leading meditation classes at her house. And this is basically
when conscious development started.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
So for it's on the level, yes everyone in La. Yeah,
for fuck's sake.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
Oh that's the thing I forgot to tell you when
I went over my when I actually got I just
stuck with a romatherapy massage, and I was like, that's
what people get. Be normal like other people. Yeah, while
you get a massage. I love aroeumatic oils.

Speaker 1 (42:19):
Telling it.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
But the woman goes, is there any particular areas that
you want me to focus on or any problems you're having?
And I just go no, I'm just trying to get
back into my body.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
And then we both just stood there staring at each other.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
And then I was like, I'm not in la. You're
not supposed to say things like that. God, it's so embarrassing.
Get back in my body. What don't you trying to
get back in my body? What does that mean? It's deep?

Speaker 1 (42:47):
It sounds deep.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
It just came out, and I thought she'd understand, and
she is just like, okay, you can.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
Put the robe over there.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
She just pretended like it never happened. I'm going to
use that didn't work. I'm in my fucking body tonight.
Let me tell you what she must have understood me.
I've been getting back.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
It's nice to be here, okay.

Speaker 3 (43:09):
And so.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
It was basically just a talking meditation class. So she
also she would write up and sell lessons like a
little pamphlets herself, and this was the first lesson. It
was first degree lesson one. That's how it starts. This
is your first lesson. It is yours in a special way,
since the knowledge contained within it is sacred, secret and mysterious.

(43:35):
It's fucking on the page. It's none of those things.
This information has been treasured and carefully guarded since ancient times,
for knowledge gives its possessor power.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
That's true.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
This sounds like a really long fortune cookie.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
By being exposed to the teachings of the Masters, you
will not only become aware of the truth, which others
rarely possess. Yay, but you will also learn how to
use and control energies few have mastered.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
I'm already out you don't like Harry Potter, Okay.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
So it turns out the Masters are, according to Terry Hoffman,
twelve wise spirit guides who would visit earth to give
advice or warnings to mankind. Only a few people could,
very rare few could communicate with them.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Of course, Terry was one of those people, and she
said that.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
The twelve Masters included Jesus Christ himself and a guy
named Marcus.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
So I'm in one hundred.

Speaker 3 (44:44):
I bet Jesus Christ is stoked. He made the fucking grain. Yeah,
he made the list.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
She's like, great, I have so much to tell you. Sorry,
Marcus is talking. You're gonna have to hold on.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
Okay. So, according to.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Terry, the Master's first appear to her when she was
four years old, and they told her that she could
have anything she wanted if she tried hard enough.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
It might be true. I mean, depends on what you
want true.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
Yeah, let's think about it first. Okay, I'm here, let's
do it.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
She also said that the problems that you have in
your life are coming up because you're paying for bad
behavior from your past lives. So it's like, Terry, that's karma.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
You didn't make that up. That's Hindu.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
Stop it, Terry.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
I wish I was Terry's friend.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
I could just be there when she was writing up
this pamphlet and be like, Terry.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
You're lying. Stop it. Stop typing about Marcus. That's a
fucking lie.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
Terry a negative energy, Karen. That's why she had to
get rid of all the negative energies, because it was
Karen telling her, Yeah, because I'm trying to copy it
it her bullshit.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
Just be like like you can't put you can't pretend
you made up karma. People will catch you, okay. She
also preached there's no difference between life and death, as quote,
you will become conscious of the continuity of life. Death
then will not exist in reality because your existence is
not dependent on the mere existence.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
Of the physical body.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
What what you can't just put the word existence in
a sentence seven times and be like, I'm.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
I talk to God. Well, apparently you can. I mean
you can and she did. Okay.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
So most of her ideas were borrowed from the usual
text that inspired New Age the New Age movement, except
her doctrine that offered forgiveness for sin and was very
pro sex, like have it as much as you want
and can Jews, yay?

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Is that what you guys are homes ours?

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Well, yeah, that's your cham particularly no but yes, yes, yeah.
So people were super into this concept basically because they
were like, oh, I went to I thought I was
going to yoga class, but it turns out I should
fuck way more. Is kind of what happened. And people
are like, I got to go back to my class.
I might start taking it two.

Speaker 4 (47:14):
Days a week.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
So as the people who are as old as I
am know. The eighties were a time of great materialism
in this country, great expansion of materialism, and of.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Course Dallas was a hotbed for it.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
There's tons of rich people here because of the oil
industry and of.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
The TV showed Dallas. I don't know I making up, but.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
I mean it was everywhere obviously, But it was the
thing that always happens with materialism, where it creates an
empty hole and people are like, but I bought an
eighty thousand dollars car and I'm still upset now. I'm
really freaked out what's going to happen to me? And
normal religion wasn't helping most people with this feeling, and
they were turning to new age options. There were a

(48:01):
lot of people became spiritual seekers, and.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
So h Terry's meditation classes.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
She acted she was the wise guru, She had all
the answers, She had a fucking direct line to Jesus
and Marcus. And as her students sat cross legged on
the floor, she sat there lecturing, this is straight from
the article, lecturing everyone on anything from personal finance to

(48:30):
sect to ghosts.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
Yes, all right, I A don't know.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
I'm in that class like sorry, how do you balance
your check book?

Speaker 1 (48:40):
Again? What's haunted? And meditate?

Speaker 2 (48:47):
But then after that lecture part, then she would speak
in a softer voice, and she would lead the group
in a trance like state, and then the evening ended
with a round of prayer, which I think is really fascinating.
She studied hypnotism when she was younger, and then she
kind of like, I think they're insinuating that she practiced

(49:08):
it with these groups of people. So, and for an
additional fee, she would give people individual consultations on their
show about their checkbook. Yeah, she'd be like, Mmm, you
have too much money.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
I need some.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
So when her husband, John, the truck driver, confronted her
about taking her leading a meditation group thing too far,
she claimed that he was impeding her spiritual growth, and
she divorced him, and soon after he and her adoptive
mother actually had her committed to a psychiatric hospital for
examination because it was she was going crazy or she

(49:48):
was just a woman in the early eighties. But she
did end up losing custody of her children when the
divorce was finalized in March of nineteen seventy one.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
Three months later, she.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Married Conscious Development member Glenn Cooley, who was a student
at North Texas State University. Yeah, after they got married,
he dropped out of school.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Boo, kind of right, and.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
He went to work full time at Conscious Development. He
was twenty years old. She was thirty three. Okay, so
she was bollin. Then she gets this great idea that
she introduces the concept of crystals and precious gems to
the group and she starts to implore her followers to

(50:39):
start using electrically charged crystals and gems because they had
protective and healing qualities.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
And luckily, she made jewelry with just those very crystals
and gems. Beautiful.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
Her and the twenty year old made jewelry together, and
so she urged her followers to buy it. And she
said the more expensive the pieces were, the more they protected.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
That's not how religion works. It's not.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
It feels like it has been working that way for
a long time.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
Well, I'm here to tell you. Oh no, Marcus. Oh
can we see the picture of the whole group? Oh? Yes,
is that is that? Okay? Yes? In fact check this
shit out. Wow, Okay, which.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
One do you think terry is at this point? Because
this is the late seventies.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
Okay, the one with the beard, No, terry, she's a woman.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
That was the one in the middle, now the one
it's old floral shirt over there on the side, yes,
and her husband it's over here in the karate outfit.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yes, wait, I asked she I asked Stephen if he
would zoom in. This is from a little bit later
on in the relays, but not that much later.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
She's not thirty three.

Speaker 3 (52:00):
Ooh no, that's a rough thirty three, right, This.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Is like ten years later. Still, that's not forty three.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
Ei looks Sometimes when your boobs are big, they take
up all this space and then you're like, I don't
want to wear this fucking bra anymore.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
So you're like, fuck it, I have my own cult.
I'm not wearing a bra anymore.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
And also I'm gonna wear this tablecloth as a dress.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
Here's your husband. Ah shit, y'all, did you know.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
That's where Matthew McConaughey got a start.

Speaker 3 (52:37):
We can we real quick though, go back? Sure, Okay,
can you guess wait which one Steven is.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
When you see it?

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Oh wait, in the very middle, the middle, because there's
also a secret Stephen over on the left.

Speaker 6 (52:58):
Oh shit, Yeah, they're all Steven, you were a whole
cult you I did then know it.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
So they're deeply in love and.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Okay, So there's a person in this group and uh
it was Her name was Sandy Cleaver, and she had
all the jewelry she was she bought into this whole
concept hook line and sinker, and she had a family trust.
She came from a lot of money, so she had
the time and resources to dedicate herself to conscious development.

(53:41):
And she, like of course many people, she had a
life marked with tragedy. Or mother had been in and
out of mental hospitals. Her teenage sister died in a
car accident, and her father had died in a plane crash.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
So she was a seeker.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
She was looking for some kind of spiritual answers and
she had she had been in this group since the beginning,
and she really believed that Terry was all the things
that she said and was really helping her. Terry begins
to prescribe holistic medicines to her followers, just Rando pills

(54:20):
that she had literally driven up in a truck from Mexico.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
Oh don't take those, you guys.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Yeah, and it was like these are crushed up crystals,
eat them. No, no, no, I mean that's what I imagine.
Why would you It's like, this is a bunch of
I'm like Kumin, right, but it's magic. It's kind of
I can give you powers or whatever. That's why I
don't have a cult. So she also convinced. She begins

(54:48):
to convince her followers that she can heal, she can
she can diagnose people's problems telepathically and then prescribe them
these holistic medicines.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
And this is basically how.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
She sells her believers these medicines, so they will give
the medicines to their family members. Oh and Sandy Cleaver.
She Terry basically says, your five year old daughter is
very sick and needs these medicines, and so Sandy's.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
Like, let's let's do it.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
When Sandy filed for divorce a month after Terry filed
for a divorce, she told her husband it was because
he was blocking her spiritual.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
Development, and they they got in.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
He sued for custody because he could tell that she
was going off the deep end with this meditation group
that she was in, and he testified at their uh
at the hearing that Sandy was giving their five year
old daughter one hundred and ten pills a day, Yeah, one.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
Hundred and tunds.

Speaker 3 (55:51):
Yes, I can't even take six vitamins. I know that,
poor baby.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
I know it's super nuts.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
But he ends up letting Sandy have have a custody
of their daughter. Their daughter's name is Devereux. If you
weren't sure if they were really rich, they're super fucking rich.
Because have you ever even heard that name before? Okay?
He was so afraid that Sandy was going to because

(56:20):
he knew that Sandy was studying this thing that said
there's no difference between life and death and it's just
another realm and it's just a different place to travel to.
That he was he was afraid if you tried to
take Devereux away, she would kill her. So he let
her have custody. But they actually put a special provision
in the divorce decree saying that Sandy was only allowed

(56:42):
to take Devereux to licensed physicians.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
Okay, which is an insane demand, right, No, just kidding, Okay.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
So Sandy becomes once she gets a divorce, she becomes
Terry's full time unpaid assistant, oh interns, And when the
company gets incorporated she becomes the secret Terry treasurer. She's like,
you know, yeah, she's there front line. She continually leaves

(57:13):
Devereaux with their elderly housekeeper and goes to meetings, weekend retreat.
She's never around. When she took in a member of
a group that was homeless, her ex husband's like, sorry,
what are you doing. I'm a child in the house,
and she said his.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
Negative energy was making Devereux sick.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
So, as the group grows larger, Terry then tells twenty
five hand selected special people, now, this is the group,
but you are my teachers.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
And so.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
They got sworn to secrecy, and she told them something
that could be never be spoken outside of their small group.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
And she said that was that they're all.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Members of what's called a white brotherhood and that they
were chosen by the masters to destroy the forces of evil,
which was a group called the Black Lords. The wording
of this is very problematic and uncomfortable. I want to
assume she was just doing that as a like a
color thing, but she absolutely could have been racist. We

(58:15):
don't fucking know what this woman's deal was. She thought
she was saying, Teresa, the good news is the evil
force had only existed on the astral and mental planes. Oh,
so that's you had to fight them there. Okay, So
to kill them you had to take them to the
pits of Hell, where their soul and lower bodies would

(58:36):
be dissolved. But the Black Overlords could not be destroyed
in the pits of Hell. They must be destroyed in
the electromagnetic dissolving cave.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
Jesus, I already made a fucking nap.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Like when I got to this part of the story,
I started getting that weird stomach ache where it's like
when you're little and you get left alone for too
long and there's no adults in the room, and you're
like there's too much kid talking and like kid pretending,
where you're like you.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
Need to shut up for a while.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
Everybody turn the TV on, like I don't want to
hear your weird story anymore.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
That's what this is.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
This is a woman with no filter and no editor
who's just like, I have another idea, No.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
Let it marinate.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
Okay, Because also there are also garbonds what obeans? No,
there were things called garbonds.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
I didn't hear that. I get it.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
This is how unfucking creative this woman was that she's
like literally finished as a salad, and she's like, there's
also an evil force calls called a garbond zobeine. Garbonds
Obeans were six feet tall, covered in slime, house like
garbonzo beans, exactly like that. They had long beats, they

(59:54):
looked like gargoyles, and they were known to cross into
the physical and touch you and leaves.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
So if that happened to you, and if after thirty
seconds your hand tingled or shakes, that's a garbond stuck
to it and you have to use your imagination wrap
it in barbed wire, stab it and kill it, and
then imagine the dead garbonds spinning straight up and dissolving
into the universe.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
Someone stopped taking their meds someone a while.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
I guess this.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Is like when you do a ton of coke with
a stranger. You're just like, I don't want to talk.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
To you anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Oh my god, can I have two more cigarettes?

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
And I'm going to leave? Okay, So I go way faster. Sorry, Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
So she said that these teachers needed to arm themselves
with magic symbols, a rod, a sword, a cup, and
a cloth bag containing a cup of dirt, my god.

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
She said that they had to wear headbands of gold
or silver, the protective jewelry, and and she said they
had to wear robes because quote, a properly made robe
can give you up to fifteen times more power.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
This isn't a fucking video game. What is happening.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
It's You're in the worst fucking after school theater class
you've ever accidentally joined. So they would sit in circles
and they would battle the overlords for hours mentally with
their imagination. And then they would call Terry and give
her the body count. We killed two hundred and sixty
dark lords but no, I mean black lords, but no overlords. Yes,

(01:01:34):
And Terry would be like, I would do that with you,
but your negative family is making me sick, and I
have to fight.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
I have to fight my home garbon zo be.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
I mean I was there when you know, when we're meditating. Great,
but now that all is homework.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
In my head? Yeah, like over it, And she there's
this whole part.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
I mean, you guys have to read these articles because
there's so much I'm leaving out and it's so dense.
But they would she describe or the author, sorry, describes
them having to fight these these black lords where there
they could use as a as a rod or I
mean as a sword. It didn't have to be a sword,
it could just be a pen or a letter opener.

(01:02:14):
So they would be like going like sitting there and
going like this to kill the garbonzobeans.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Wow okay.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
Basically, and they listed the kind of people that were
in this group. A college professor and advertise, an agency executive,
a counselor.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
For the Dallas School District.

Speaker 6 (01:02:36):
Ooh yeah, all off their meds.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
So she made them.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
Everything she told them was making them more and more paranoid.
No one could be trusted outside the group, especially the
people who had been and were like, hey, I'm not
into the Garbonds thing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
I have to go. Okay. There were people who were
like goodbye, Yeah, okay, good way, goodbye.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
But then on February twenty, February second, nineteen seventy seven,
her husband, Glenn Cooley was found dead karate kid, the
karate king. Okay, so they'd been married for six years
at this point. He worked for the jewelry business. But
basically when he started hearing about this black lord's thing,

(01:03:21):
he wanted out and he'd actually told his family, like,
this whole thing has gone a little crazy and I
need to get away. So they separated in September of
nineteen seventy six, but he still worked for CD Gems,
which was the name of their corporation.

Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
Thems CD gems. Okay, like Cdjems, like CD Gems.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
She wasn't a smart woman, So the divorce goes through
in January of nineteen seventy seven. Five days later, he
goes to spend the weekend at his parents' cabin in
Lake Grapevine and the next day she says she finds
a handwritten will in her safe. U huh, the most

(01:04:02):
convenient place to leave something. And in the will he
left everything to Terry. And so there's actually a line
in the will that says, I will ask that this
last will of mine will not.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
Be contested in any way. Oh, that's convenient, it's written in.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
So she says when she saw that the will he
put in a safe, she got two of her teachers
drove to that cabin and when they got there, they
found her twenty five year old ex husband dead in
bed with a strange ooze coming out of his mouth,
and they found a can of beer and some capsules,
and when the toscology report came back, it was valium
and librium in his system. So she Terry tells the

(01:04:44):
authorities he was despondent over the divorce and.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
She told him not to go off alone.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
But he was basically suicidal, and his death was uncontested
for thirteen years. Everyone just took her story at face value.
So then we get into the part where she starts
losing followers because she said.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
The proof of his his death was proof.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
That the black Lords were winning, and the overlords were winning,
and so now they need to introduce the next level
of protections blood lighting.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
Oh fuck uh huh. So basically she tells.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
The teachers the black Lords have the power to poison
the blood, and so the blood needed to be drained,
and it was fine if it's just like a syringe.
You just take out a syringe of blood every day.
And all these people are just like, you know what,
I've been here for the crystals and the gem. He said,
I've bought your bullshit. I'm taking pill after pill for you.

(01:05:39):
So people start bailing, even in the inner circle, but
Sandy Clearer stays in and then Terry starts to tell
her that her fourteen year old daughter, Deveux is now fourteen,
and Terry says she's been infected.

Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
By the Black Lords.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
Oh so in December seventy eighth, and Sandy was never home,
never went to Devro's games, she played basketball, she was,
you know, in high school and doing all this stuff.
And Sandy was completely negligent. But then then she comes
to her daughter and says, I want to take you
on a trip to Hawaii. So of course Deva's so
happy and excited, and Sandy's fiance at the time went

(01:06:18):
with them, and they went to this area that was
basically it was like a certain beach, and they took
this blue raft out into the water and then they
don't come back, and so Sandy's fiance calls the cops
and they end up finding Sandy bloody and stranded on

(01:06:39):
this coral reef. And her story is they were out
on this thing and a huge wave hit them and
they got washed up onto this coral reef and she
couldn't find Devereaux, and they ended up finding Devereux's body.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
Like four hours later.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
So when Chuck, the Sandy's ex husband in Devro's dad,
he finds out that they call him when.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
She's still missing and they haven't found the body yet.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
So he hustles it up and takes a flight the
next flight to Hawaii, and we get when he gets there,
Terry's already in Sandy's hospital room. So Sandy's been beaten
up on these rocks or whatever. Terry's already there. And
back home in Dallas, somebody had called Chuck's house and

(01:07:25):
a family friend answered the phone, and they said, we
have a document that you need to see. And it
was Devereaux's will, a fourteen year old well and in
it her one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars trust
that she'd gotten from her mom was left to Terry
and so, and in it also there was the line

(01:07:47):
that said they specifically asking not to have the will
be contested. So two months later, Sandy takes out a
three hundred thousand dollars life insurance policy on herself, which
was twice the limit. The insurance agent's like, you don't
need that much, and she's like, no, I ensist seventeen rings,
No I need to, And in it Terry is the

(01:08:10):
sole beneficiary, and then she transfers the deed to her
home or the title of her home to Terry, and
then begins paying Terry rent to live in her home.

Speaker 3 (01:08:21):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
Yeah, So in September of nineteen eighty one, Sandy persuades Louise,
the old housekeeper that basically raised Devereux herself.

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
She's like, we need to go on a trip to Colorado.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
The Conscious Development has bought this plot of land for
a retreat that we're going to build one day, and
we should go look at the land. And the seventy
seven year old housekeeper's like, fuck off, I'm putting my
feet up. But she basically made her go and they
fly out, and it was in an area near Cripple
Creek and in near on this mountain and they are

(01:08:57):
in the station wagon. They drive up the road to
the mountain and fucking off that mountain. Yeah, the cops
say there were no break there were no skid marks,
there were no break marks or anything. It was she
just drove off the mountain and killed them both. And
then they find Terry shows up in Colorado to claim
the bodies, and she's carrying both women's wills. Oh no,

(01:09:22):
everything is left to Terry. And the housekeeper didn't even
know Terry and she left everything in her will. Yes,
So Sandy Cleaver's brother takes Terry to court and she's like,
He's like, this is all a crazy cult and this
is like mind control and crazy bullshit, and they end

(01:09:45):
up because it's it is a document. I don't know
what happened, but she has to pay and she immediately
cashed that three hundred thousand dollars check from a life
insurance policy, so she has to pay him back half
of that money. And then they split the rest of
Sandy's estate, so she got half of it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
Yeah. Wow, let's see.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
So then there's still a couple followers left after that.
The Goodman's, who are the people we talked about at
the very beginning. They're still in and they were they
were kind of like late adopters, and David Goodman had
testified at Terry's trial saying that Conscious Development was a
discussion group that fosters good vibrations and.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
Fucking beating boys or some ship.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
Four other group members also testified on Terry's behalf at
that at that trial, and three of those people would
end up killing themselves.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
Eventually Terry came out with her own perfume.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
My guy it's called Good Vibrations.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
And also an acupressure massage therapy course that she's wants.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
Finally, a criminal.

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
Investigation was launched by the Dallas District Attorney's office in
January of nineteen ninety Yeah, and they the problem was
that it's so difficult to determine. If mind control can
be determined, it can be cited as a cause of
death because it's hard to prove. They of course deny

(01:11:20):
any wrongdoing that Terry Hoffman's lawyer said, this is a
witch hunt, and she's a great person.

Speaker 3 (01:11:28):
She's a witch, Yeah, but a bad witch.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
They can't find evidence linking Terry Hoffman to any of
the deaths, so she doesn't ever go to jail for
any of them. But she does file for bankruptcy in
October of nineteen ninety one, as she's sentenced to sixteen
months in prison for bankruptcy fraud.

Speaker 1 (01:11:49):
In May of nineteen ninety four.

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
She only served a year, and in nineteen ninety five,
Unsolved Mysteries did an episode on the disappearance of the
Terry Hoffins follower, Charles Southern. She she ended up marrying
five men altogether, and they at the end they wrote

(01:12:12):
a book. I'm really mad at myself because I took
a picture of this thing that I wanted to write
in the end, but I fucking forgot to write it down.
The book they wrote was called I think it's called
something like Money Colors, and it's basically like how to
attract money to yourself through wearing different book in your clothes.

(01:12:33):
That's something my mom would have read in the eighties.

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
A lot of people read it. In the end, they
were like, have you gotten your money Colors done?

Speaker 3 (01:12:41):
I only eat grape freaking cottage cheese, and I wear
purple for the money.

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
Because the purple symbolizes five hundred dollars. Anyway, she died
in nineteen ninety seven and that's the end of that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
I'm sorry that was so long.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
I've never I've never had a murder that was less
fucking skippable. Like normally, when we're reading these, you're like,
this isn't important. That's that's a strange detail. Yeah, every
every thing is not.

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):
So no, I'm down. I'm here for the murder. Thank you.
I appreciate it. All right.

Speaker 2 (01:13:19):
Wait oh this is okay. This is the illustration. How
awesome is this? This was the fucking illustration. Now I'm
not going to be able to get back to page one.
This is the illustration that was in God bless It
Texas Monthly magazine.

Speaker 3 (01:13:35):
Yes, that is a tattoo for the ages.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
Look how brand.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
Wait and the guy that drew its name was Joel
Peter Johnson.

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
How amazing?

Speaker 3 (01:13:48):
That is glorious? We need prayer candles. Bad image, Oh
good idea.

Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
And it sucks because I had to do the thing.
I made Stephen edit that for me, because I had
to do the like the control shift for a thing
where I had to take a picture on my screen
because you can't drag and drop and her little feet
are dangling down, she's floating in the air.

Speaker 3 (01:14:11):
Yeah, awesome, okay, and we're back. Great job, Karen, Thank you.
Twenty seventeen, way back. When do you have any updates?

Speaker 1 (01:14:22):
There are two updates. One of them is so this
is weird.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
I said in that show that Terry Hoffman died in
nineteen ninety seven, but according to Wikipedia, which we know
is an iron cloud source, Wikipedia says that Terry Hoffman
died at age seventy seven and twenty fifteen. That's not
attributed to any source, but that same fact is repeated
other places. So Maren looked it up and she can't

(01:14:49):
find anything refuting it. But it's almost like that kind
of thing when this single source is Wikipedia itself.

Speaker 1 (01:14:54):
So not sure, right, that's weird.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
There is an article in d magazine said that she
was alive in twenty fourteen, and so I think a
part of this is that she remarried after the investigations
to a man named Roger Kanneely and changed her name
to Terry Lila Conneely. So that might be why no
one knew interesting when she died, or it didn't go

(01:15:18):
out like the same way.

Speaker 1 (01:15:19):
Wow. Yeah, that was such a good fucking story. So crazy,
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
Okay, so let's get into your story now. This is
Georgia's story about Sandra Bridewell.

Speaker 3 (01:15:35):
Put the flag over here, get the flag ready, This
out of the way, all right, My murder, you guys
is again all the information from the same place. Is
Sandra Bridewell, the black widow of Dallas. I love a
black widow. I know you love a black widow.

Speaker 1 (01:15:54):
I just love it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:56):
This is a weird story, all right. So let's talk
about Sandra. Let's see a picture of her, Okay, hot,
that's her. She's gorgeous.

Speaker 1 (01:16:03):
Yeah, beautiful. That was an inappropriate reaction, you guys. She's
a gorgeous woman. She you want to see them, yes, please, Well,
but just because look at her friends. They're also pretty. Yeah,
they're all really rich.

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
They're having the best fucking Halloween ever because they're really rich.

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
Because they're rich. Okay, let me talk. Let's talk about her. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:16:26):
Sandra is born April fourth, nineteen forty four, in a
little town of uh Setalia, Missouri. Okay, Sidelia, Yeah, Missouri,
thank you. Anne was adopted as an infant to parents
and according to parents, I guess that's weird, right because
I cut out their names and okay, yeah. According to reports,

(01:16:50):
by the age of three, her adoptive mother, Camille, was
killed in an auto accident and her father, Arthur, who
managed and ran a doctor Pepper bottling plant, and they
relocated to Oak Cliff, Texas.

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
You guys are rich. No, I'm kidding. No, that's not
a rich flight. That's later when she's older. Now they're mad.

Speaker 2 (01:17:15):
Can I just say that I had a doctor pepper
today and it was so goddamn delicious?

Speaker 3 (01:17:21):
Is it?

Speaker 2 (01:17:21):
The mini bar, and I was like, I always just
drink automatically drink diet coke. And I was like, hey,
I'm in fucking Texas. I get to have a doctor
pepper if I want.

Speaker 1 (01:17:31):
You guys really know how to live.

Speaker 3 (01:17:32):
Okay, apologies to oak Cliff because you're not rich.

Speaker 1 (01:17:37):
I guess all right, it's all kinds of problems. Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:17:41):
There he uh worked as a cemetery plot salesman, which
sounds fun. Sandra and her new stepmom they fought all
the time. Apparently she was real mean to Sandra that
she said her stepmother regularly locked her in the closet,
told her nobody wanted her, and then one time was like,
we're gonna throw you a big birthday party. Ready for
your birthday party, it's today, And then she's like, JK,

(01:18:04):
didn't send out any of the invitations.

Speaker 1 (01:18:06):
Nobody likes you.

Speaker 2 (01:18:09):
Wow, I know what's that lady's problem.

Speaker 3 (01:18:13):
After graduating from high school where she really didn't date much,
she was just kind of a quiet girl, she began
dating lots of dudes and it was kind of in
her mind that she was like, I'm going to be
a fucking housewife to a very rich person.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
That's my goal.

Speaker 2 (01:18:27):
Nice was like, okay, get it, your old dude, get it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:29):
Whatever, do it. We all have different goals in life.
I love it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:33):
And every dude became smitten with her because she was beautiful.
And then her friends said that she would do a
thing called the lady like poor helpless me routine. After
one year of college, she drops out, and she apparently
is like a right. She lies all the time, telling
people that her adoptive parents had been killed, that her
fit her parents were aristocrats, all this bullshit.

Speaker 1 (01:18:55):
The aristicats.

Speaker 3 (01:18:56):
Yeah, then she It's a man named David and Steegal.
He's a fancy dentist.

Speaker 1 (01:19:04):
He'd gone to.

Speaker 2 (01:19:04):
School, Yeah, lots of pinky rings and stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:19:09):
He's fancy as fuck. He's a high falutint dentist, you
know what I mean. Yes, Like, he's like, I'm not
gonna fucking give you a drill your teeth. I'm gonna
like do plastic surgery like fancy shit. Oh okay, stuff
that isn't covered by insurance, that costs a lot of
money for high fucking society.

Speaker 1 (01:19:25):
You know what I mean? Yes, got it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
We're just like, hey, do you want me to give
you a dent in your chin. I can do that
for you, right, I'm a fancy dentist. What was your
childhood dentist's name?

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
Oh god, I don't remember the dentist. You don't know,
do you? Yeah, of course I do. That's why I
asked the question of you remember your childhood. We're just
asking security questions. That's your mother's maiden name? What's that?
I didn't hear you.

Speaker 3 (01:19:56):
Have you seen the ones that it's like who's your
favorite niece or nephew?

Speaker 1 (01:20:00):
It's just like, mean one is that true? I've never
seen that one?

Speaker 2 (01:20:04):
Okay, I just know that every single one where they're like,
what's your first car? And then I'll be like, you know,
whatever the answer is, And then the next time I
go there, I'm like, well there was that other one. Yeah,
Like my mom sometimes let.

Speaker 1 (01:20:14):
Me drive the Volvo. I was like, I can't ever
get into anything, no, I.

Speaker 3 (01:20:21):
Okay. So she meets fancy dentists. David They he had
gone to school in Los Angeles and had Hollywood caliber clients,
but in the Dallas.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
Fucking richie rich set, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (01:20:31):
So this is like the mid sixties, everyone's richest fucking Dallas, sure,
and he had a thing for fancy stuff, big cadillacs
and houses and pretty women. They get married in nineteen
sixty seven. They have three children, and they're raising their
family in an upscale Dallas neighborhood. But despite his salary

(01:20:51):
and his like high falutint reputation, he couldn't keep up
with Sandra's spending. She was like worth spending at all
because I because.

Speaker 1 (01:21:00):
Because I said so, Yeah, you didn't really need a reason.

Speaker 3 (01:21:02):
Okay, So she had she had lavish tastes. She loved
buying art and expensive furniture. And by nineteen seventy four,
the family is in severe debt.

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):
Oh no, so.

Speaker 3 (01:21:14):
He's forced to borrow money from his family to pay
their bills. And in nineteen seventy five, this situation and
the marriage is falling apart. It had gotten so bad
that David tried to kill himself. And by Sandra's story
is that she told she found him in a closet
with a gun pointed to his head, called his coworker
like his business owner was like business owner, no, you know,

(01:21:36):
his business partner, Yeah, thank you. He comes and they
talk him out of killing himself. But a few weeks later,
he is found lying in bed with both of his
wrist slashed and a gunshot wound to his head.

Speaker 1 (01:21:53):
Oh yeah, that's a bit overkilled.

Speaker 3 (01:21:55):
Yeah, seems like well then, I you know, and when
I found all these like random articles and read it stuff,
and it's like and it said that the gunshot wound
was first, you know, so like, clearly he didn't do that,
But I didn't find that corroborated anywhere, so I'm not
saying it.

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):
Good use of the word corroborated, though, thank you. This
is a true crime. Thought, that's right. I know word,
I know words, some of them, not most of them.

Speaker 3 (01:22:24):
Okay, So here that was her. Nope, that's someone else.
That's her, all right. So after his death, she collects
the insurance on her husband's life and sells his practice,
and then she begins to eating wealthy men again, which
is like, man, her husband just killed herself, Like, go
get yours, honey, poor thing, Like that sucks, right unless

(01:22:46):
she kill him.

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
Right, Okay, it's hard to know who's side to be
on it. Probably not the black widows, I would assume.

Speaker 1 (01:22:55):
So she kind of was.

Speaker 3 (01:22:57):
Men were spelled by her by her block law and
then a little more than you know, she's.

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):
Hot, she had a really hot blobbery blah blah blah
blah blah blah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:06):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:23:08):
So a little more than three years after her husband dies,
she marries a well known Dallas hotel guy, an investor hotelier.
But that's right, Bobby Bridewell. So that's her new her
second husband. He adopts Santra's three three daughters. They moved
to upscale neighborhood of Highland Park.

Speaker 1 (01:23:27):
So she could have she could have been in the
cult maybe. Oh that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):
She was right around the corner, yeah, sharpening her fingernails.

Speaker 3 (01:23:37):
But in nineteen eighty Bobby is diagnosed with cancer. So
he while he is recovering from radiation and is trying
to get better, she is having the entire home remodeled.

Speaker 2 (01:23:52):
Yes, because you have to cleanse, clap the corners, sage
the house. Yes, get new Italian furniture.

Speaker 3 (01:24:02):
Paper, shag carpeting the end. Very important. So she's having
it remodeled. And then she says to like her neighbor,
you know I'm getting this done today. Can you take
him in your house for a week and let him
live there?

Speaker 1 (01:24:16):
Her dying husband.

Speaker 3 (01:24:18):
Huh, So she moves in with the neighbors. He never
returns to his home. Two years after his diagnosis, and
a couple of weeks after this, he dies. So she
Sandra becomes friends with her late husband's oncologists, doctor John Bagwell,
and his wife Betsy. They become buddies, and so Betsy

(01:24:41):
is the quintessential Highland Park housewife and mother. She's fucking
Highland Park High School cheerleader.

Speaker 1 (01:24:48):
She was not. She wasn't as an adult. That would
be weird.

Speaker 2 (01:24:53):
You kind of said that, like, Yoda, I know, cheerleader
she was.

Speaker 1 (01:25:01):
I get it, I get what I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:25:03):
Yeah, she but but you know she's like, you know,
she's the ship. She's she's a hard working lady, Shakespeare
Festival Junior League, active in the Presbyterian Church, taught Bible
class for children in her home while raising two around children.

Speaker 1 (01:25:17):
So the couple was like, great, we love this ship.

Speaker 3 (01:25:19):
She's our friend, Sandra, awesome, wonderful, But then she starts
becoming really like obsessive with them and fucking totally what
about Bob's one of their vacations and shows up unannounced
in New Mexico, where they were vacationing. Yes, she fucking
what about Bob's that ship?

Speaker 1 (01:25:35):
What are you guys doing in New Mexico?

Speaker 3 (01:25:40):
I think we have a photo of her, So that's
her and her. That's her third.

Speaker 1 (01:25:44):
Husband, Stephen. That's not him either.

Speaker 3 (01:25:47):
I thought we had a phone that was it. That's
Betsy that well okay, wait, sorry, that's the that's the
wood woman.

Speaker 1 (01:25:55):
Yeah. Then one was just trying to go on vacation. Yeah, okay,
So she's like surprise, New Mexico.

Speaker 3 (01:26:02):
And then they're like, we need to distance ourselves from
this woman at that point, so they are trying to
break ties with her, but she's still really insistent with
hanging out with them, even though they try not to
get her letter in their lives.

Speaker 1 (01:26:16):
But then in early.

Speaker 3 (01:26:17):
June eighty two, Sandra calls Betsy and is like, Hey,
I need to ride to the airport. My car won't
start some bullshit about that, so Betsy goes to help her,
takes her to the airport, and when they go to
the lot where Sandra's car is parked to get her
because she had forgotten her driver's license. It's some convoluted
bullshit story. So then four hours later, after Sandra I

(01:26:43):
being the last person to see Betsy. June sixteenth, nineteen
eighty two, Betsy's Betsy, forty year old.

Speaker 1 (01:26:50):
She's found dead in her Mercedes in the airport parking
lot where they had been.

Speaker 3 (01:26:56):
She'd been shot in the head, and her death was
ruled a suicide.

Speaker 1 (01:27:01):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:27:02):
No, So Sandra being the last person to see Bagweb alive,
all these questions of core surface and there's no evidence.
There's not a suicide. Note she'd been living a happy life.
Everyone who knew her was like, hell fucking no, there's
no way she would.

Speaker 1 (01:27:18):
Have done that.

Speaker 3 (01:27:18):
Yeah, but John Bagwell, the husband, hires a private investigator,
but police closed the case and refused to open it.
So let's see. So, when Sandra has the funeral for
her husband who died of cancer, Bobby, she got about
fifty thousand dollars as like memorial funds.

Speaker 1 (01:27:39):
I guess people just like give you money.

Speaker 2 (01:27:41):
I don't know, that's not usually how it works.

Speaker 3 (01:27:46):
Well, she didn't really spend any money on his funeral.
She got like the cheapest casket and all this stuff,
and it kissed everyone off.

Speaker 4 (01:27:56):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:27:57):
June nineteen eighty four, she meets a guy named Alan
Rare a rearig. He's a good looking.

Speaker 3 (01:28:02):
Twenty nine year old just moved to Dallas, a former
college basketball star from Oklahoma. He was going to hit
it rich in real estate and he's so he's like,
I'm gonna I want to be rich. And he's driving
around a highland park. He's like, this is the rich neighborhood.
Sometimes people who live in these big houses will rent
out their back house for people like me.

Speaker 1 (01:28:22):
So he's driving around.

Speaker 3 (01:28:23):
She's a hot woman on her fancy lawn and gets
out and is like asks her.

Speaker 1 (01:28:28):
Turns out it's our friend Sandra.

Speaker 3 (01:28:30):
Uh oh, and they and she's like, I don't but
I'll help you. And of course they fucking fall madly
in love with each other, which is like the creepiest
way to meet someone, right.

Speaker 2 (01:28:39):
No, I love it in a rich neighborhood on a lawn,
come on.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
Croquet style. Yeah, these are the.

Speaker 3 (01:28:49):
Seventies people, Okay. So within weeks they're inseparable. Then in
the fall of eighty four, she says that she's pregnant.
She tells them she's pregnant, but unbeknownst to him, seven
years earlier, she had had a hysterectomy. So she's fucking lying.

Speaker 1 (01:29:06):
That's a lie.

Speaker 3 (01:29:07):
Then, yeah, and she also told him she was thirty six,
but she was really forty one.

Speaker 1 (01:29:12):
Girl, that's got a full years. They were really bad
at that one.

Speaker 3 (01:29:17):
Do not lie about your age in Texas. So he
didn't doubt her though he had no reason to. So
they got married in December nineteen eighty four. And then
she was like, oh shit, I can't like lie about
this for a couple of years.

Speaker 1 (01:29:33):
So she says she has a miscarriage.

Speaker 2 (01:29:36):
And so I'm just still worried about lying. If you
lie that you're five years younger than you.

Speaker 1 (01:29:43):
Are, yeah, you look like shit.

Speaker 2 (01:29:45):
I mean, dude, Yeah, it is a certain point. It all
just starts falling apart. Yaues, I was personally a test.
You're just like, I'm thirty two.

Speaker 1 (01:29:54):
Everybody I want to lie up.

Speaker 3 (01:29:58):
She'll be like, damn, you look good for forty exactly right.
I look really good for forty one seven.

Speaker 1 (01:30:05):
So it doesn't.

Speaker 3 (01:30:07):
I'm so disappointed. Sorry, Okay, Then okay, loses the baby.

Speaker 2 (01:30:15):
They know there's no baby, right, loses imaginary baby, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:30:22):
So he quickly realizes that Sandra loves money.

Speaker 1 (01:30:25):
Who amongst us though I'm going to go ahead and
be fair to her.

Speaker 2 (01:30:31):
Stop casting stones. This goes to super Bible really fast.

Speaker 1 (01:30:37):
So she's like pushing him to make more money.

Speaker 3 (01:30:40):
She takes out a big life insurance policy on him.

Speaker 2 (01:30:47):
Dang, he tells, yes, they should do something at Like
when you're in all State and someone comes in and
they're just like, yeah, hello, I'm just kind of forty five,
and I don't know, I feel like looking into a
humongous life insurance policy and the people are like, hold.

Speaker 1 (01:31:04):
On nine one one, what's your emergency. I don't know
what the emergency is yet, but it's gonna be bad.
You can call. Uh, there's like a future crimes hotline. Yes, hey, hello,
minority Report. Who's this? That's what I was trying to
think up. But I was going to say the matrix.
It's not so I didn't do it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:26):
Hello, the matrix may help you. Oh no, no, no,
you want to call minority Report?

Speaker 1 (01:31:31):
Okay, good luck? Phone bits? Why haven't we been doing
them all along? It was a great idea.

Speaker 2 (01:31:40):
Also, the oldest phone we could be using this is
the iPhone ten.

Speaker 1 (01:31:45):
Hello, Well what do they do now?

Speaker 3 (01:31:47):
This?

Speaker 1 (01:31:47):
Yeah? Hello? Hello, that's stupid. Oh it's just stupid.

Speaker 2 (01:31:51):
It's this why didn't you text me? Okay, well we're
not friends anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:31:57):
Okay, we're not friends anymore. Now I have three huge
zits right here. Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:32:07):
Oh, he tells his friends that Sandras guess how much
money she spends a month.

Speaker 1 (01:32:11):
On clothes, food, and travel. Guess how much closed food
and travel. I guess how much a month she spends
a month?

Speaker 2 (01:32:19):
Okay, Well, let's let's talk about how much I spend
a month on clothes.

Speaker 3 (01:32:24):
Zero Karen, as Jewish friend, I need to tell you
you just start spending more money on clothes.

Speaker 2 (01:32:31):
I have Catholic permission to buy more clothes, I'm going
to say. And it's the eighties, right, m m five
dollars twenty thousand?

Speaker 1 (01:32:40):
What the fuck? But how fun of a month would
that be if we could do that? You guys, if
we just had.

Speaker 3 (01:32:47):
One month where we could do that, we would have
the best fucking month.

Speaker 2 (01:32:50):
But we're would she doing like go into New Mexico
four times?

Speaker 1 (01:32:54):
Like what not? Oh? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:32:57):
It's the thing of when people buy expensive clothes, because
we're like, how that's a lot of clothes up forever
twenty one?

Speaker 1 (01:33:02):
Yeah, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 3 (01:33:05):
People shop at adults, shop at real places.

Speaker 1 (01:33:07):
That's right. Forty one year old shop at reel stores.

Speaker 2 (01:33:10):
Yeah, that's so many shirts that are gonna pull apart
in three days.

Speaker 1 (01:33:13):
And why would she waste that money?

Speaker 3 (01:33:16):
Right, So she could have bought like two power suits
and that's it, you know, And that's how much they were.

Speaker 1 (01:33:22):
We don't know, Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:33:25):
In November nineteen eighty five, the couple separates because of
all this the money problems and.

Speaker 1 (01:33:31):
She's a crazy liar. So he moves.

Speaker 3 (01:33:36):
In with a friend and they didn't see each other
for several weeks, and then in December nineteen eighty five,
Sandra calls him and is like, let's meet at the
storage facility we rent because we need to get this stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:33:47):
Out of No, thank you. No, never meet anyone at
a storage facility. Why not say meet me in the
middle of the desert, bring your own shovel.

Speaker 6 (01:33:58):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:34:01):
I met my dad at a storage facility once. But
I met my dad at a storage facility once, but
I survived. It was really depressing because we helped. I
helped him clean his storage facility out, So that's just
as bad.

Speaker 1 (01:34:13):
But They're like, it's such a.

Speaker 2 (01:34:15):
Strange, like desert of nothing miss and weird secrets that
people have behind some garage door.

Speaker 1 (01:34:21):
I would have not met anyone else I know at
a storage facility. No, I'm so mad at him.

Speaker 3 (01:34:29):
Yeah, okay, he kept trying to make me take things home.

Speaker 1 (01:34:33):
Do you want this?

Speaker 3 (01:34:33):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:34:34):
I don't want that.

Speaker 3 (01:34:34):
Du away it's gonna be okay, just a.

Speaker 1 (01:34:37):
Weird old mug from McDonald's.

Speaker 3 (01:34:41):
Okay, so they're gonna meet at the storage facility and
he doesn't show up, right, Oh, so she says, next
thing we know, he is found slumped over in his
Bronco in Oklahoma. He had been killed by gunshots to
the head and chest, and it was apparent that his

(01:35:02):
body had been driven to Oklahoma in that car.

Speaker 1 (01:35:05):
Oh. I don't know how they knew that, but that's
the story. I want to say what I think it is,
but it's inappropriate. What don't tell me? I won't tell me.
Just his hair was blown back. You made me say it,
and now I'm.

Speaker 5 (01:35:23):
The fucking bad guy.

Speaker 1 (01:35:28):
It's not. It's sad, but.

Speaker 2 (01:35:33):
Within sad things, that's when my mind starts going. Isn't
there something funny about this? Sad thing that we could say.

Speaker 3 (01:35:40):
And that's when you laugh at a woman who just
told you her sister's die.

Speaker 1 (01:35:45):
That's how the world works.

Speaker 3 (01:35:46):
That's yeah, how you doing?

Speaker 1 (01:35:52):
I'm all right? Are you warm? You're hot? You're warm? Hot? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:35:56):
Okay, okay, so he So Santra's a suspect, but she's
totally uncooperative. She won't speak to anyone and let and
she won't let anyone speak to her her daughters who
are older now, and that this time she becomes known
as the Black widow and Dallas in the high society,
and Dallas starts talking Matt shit about her all the time,

(01:36:16):
and like, do.

Speaker 1 (01:36:16):
You know about this thing? You know this thing she did,
and everyone's like, oh fuck, this woman's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:36:20):
There were probably parties planned specifically to talk shit about her,
because that's the third husband she that's died, right, yeah,
within in their purview, right, you'd be like, by the cannipas,
we have shit to talk about.

Speaker 1 (01:36:36):
Over break out the caviar. Everybody, get a scuba caviar
and sit down. I'm going to tell you something exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:36:45):
So Also, which is highly unusual, the FBI fucking gets
in onto the murder probe and they're like.

Speaker 1 (01:36:50):
Oh, I thought you meant the gossip FBI, guess what
I heard. Sorry, she's of course a suspect.

Speaker 3 (01:37:03):
And when they get a phone call from an anonymous
woman called the Highland Park deep Throat, which is like
troublesome on so many levels. It's not creative. First of all,
it makes everyone think of jfk oh, someone's dad here tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:37:21):
I mean absolutely at least four of them.

Speaker 3 (01:37:26):
And then she scrimps again on funeral expenses, least expensive casket,
convince his friend to cover the burial bills because she
forgot her wallet at the funeral.

Speaker 2 (01:37:36):
Okay, okay, bitch, no, but like you're going to.

Speaker 3 (01:37:40):
A funeral, you're not going to be like, let me
grab my wallet, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:37:44):
No, yes, you are. Your wallet's in your purse.

Speaker 2 (01:37:47):
You're not a man. You didn't forget it on the counter.
It's all in that one satchel that women have carried
since the dawn of time. Okay, so go ahead and
throw that on your shoulder every time you leave the house,
and that would never happened to you.

Speaker 1 (01:38:00):
You're right.

Speaker 2 (01:38:01):
You don't imagine walking into a funeral free hand like that.
Just like, Hey, I'm grieving. Where do I put my hands?
It makes no sense.

Speaker 3 (01:38:12):
It's that friend who always goes out with that and
didn't want to carry her purse, and so you have
to pay for her dinner, except you have to pay
for her husband's funeral.

Speaker 2 (01:38:21):
God, that's like high society scumbag action right there.

Speaker 1 (01:38:26):
Okay. And she was late for the services of her
own husband's funeral. Yeah, she doesn't give a shit.

Speaker 3 (01:38:36):
No, she arrived at the very last minute dressed to
the nines in a fucking mink coat.

Speaker 1 (01:38:44):
No, no, no shite.

Speaker 2 (01:38:49):
She rolled up like ludicrous at that funerals.

Speaker 1 (01:38:52):
She's just like hey, She's like, what's up?

Speaker 2 (01:39:02):
Call me?

Speaker 1 (01:39:04):
That's oh my god, huh Jesus.

Speaker 3 (01:39:10):
And by this by this time she had gotten the
two hundred and twenty thousand dollars from the life insurance
less than a year after his death. She gets the
fuck out of Dallas for good, because I think everyone
is just talking so much shit.

Speaker 1 (01:39:23):
Just like, sorry, let me light this tourch real quick.

Speaker 2 (01:39:26):
Just knna.

Speaker 1 (01:39:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:39:29):
Relocates to Marin County.

Speaker 2 (01:39:32):
Oh that's in the North Bay of California. Yeah, right
near you, kind of near me, Okay, Marin County is
the richest county in California, I believe she Yeah, and
my county Wasnoma County, which we had the most chickens.

Speaker 1 (01:39:51):
Proud, proud fact impressive. Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:39:56):
So then, of course she's still fucking hot and beautiful,
and no one knows she changes her name, no one
knows her past. And so one man loans her twenty
three thousand dollars. There, another man loans her seventy thousand dollars.

Speaker 1 (01:40:09):
The dude she's cooking up with.

Speaker 3 (01:40:11):
Neither of them saw a penny of it back, and
even though they have both brought her to court, so
she moves around a lot from there, using social Security
numbers of other people, takes out credit cards and other
people's names, including.

Speaker 1 (01:40:25):
Her three kids.

Speaker 3 (01:40:25):
Of course, who fucking credit she destroyed, which like, oh,
I always hate those stories.

Speaker 2 (01:40:30):
That's her least favorite part of the story.

Speaker 1 (01:40:33):
Credit is so important. Good credit.

Speaker 3 (01:40:37):
In two thousand and six, she resurfaces in North Carolina
and began using the name Camille Camille Bowers, and she
tells everyone that she is not a nun, but like
a religious person, I guess, and she does like. She
goes to India to take care of children and build
houses and stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:40:57):
Way is this the Mother Teresa's story. Yeah, this is
how mother Teresa started. So she's telling all these people that.

Speaker 3 (01:41:06):
And so she moved in with a woman named Sue Moseley.
She's a seventy seven year old woman who lived in
a million dollar home on the Carolina Coast. She's incredibly wealthy,
and she was basically going to live in the house
and take care of the housework, and she'd get free
room and board, which is like, that's fucking sweet, sign
me up. So then of course she sets to work

(01:41:30):
taking over this woman's finances. She collected tax records, rerooted
her Social Security payments to a new account, took money
off the mortgage, siphoned off the mortgage money. She'd like
intercept the money and they were and then she'd get
the mail every day and it was like your house
is going to get foreclosed on, and she'd be like.

Speaker 1 (01:41:46):
Shred, you know, yes, that's how I do everything.

Speaker 3 (01:41:51):
So she just fucking uses all this woman's money. She
goes to it, she's like, oh, go look you at
the bank. Sure, let's run an erran and then like
meets the teller. So they'd like know her, and she's like,
I'm with care whatever. So then her son, Jim Mosley
gets really suspicious and in early two thousand and seven,
he comes across a lengthy newspaper report in the Dallas

(01:42:13):
Observer chronicling Sandra's life. Oh and the reason she left
Marin is because in the d magazine Fucking Our Friends
skips Holland Warth wrote like a tell all about her
and like people saw it Marin and she was like,
getta get out of here.

Speaker 1 (01:42:30):
Are you serious? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:42:31):
So finally that with working with police, there's with Jim.
There's a sting, please sting, which sounds fun. And on
March second, two thousand and seven, she's arrested in Charlotte,
North Carolina, and she's charged with identity theft, thraud.

Speaker 1 (01:42:46):
Fraud, sucking. Throd is so much worse than fraud, you guys,
theft and theft and fraud. Yeah, fraud, theft and throat.

Speaker 3 (01:42:56):
Make this easier quicker thrad male that thief, theft and
social security fraud.

Speaker 2 (01:43:04):
They wait, sorry, but can you imagine You're like, there's like, oh,
my elderly mom has a new young roommate who really
has an interest in her life and the bank, and
then you pick up a magazine that has an entire
article about this woman and.

Speaker 3 (01:43:19):
How she maybe killed husbands and a woman. Yeah, yeah,
murders people maybe fucking nuts. Okay, So because of that
they knew interest in the death of Allan Rarek is renewed.
Oklahoma City Police put new resources and manpower into the investigation.
On February two thousand and eight, Sandra Camill Powers pleaded

(01:43:42):
guilty to one count of identity theft, and at her
fucking trial, the mother of Allan is in the fucking
audience just being like, yeah, bitch, I'm going to come out.

Speaker 1 (01:43:51):
She wears a pin with her son's face on it,
just so she could. She said, I.

Speaker 3 (01:43:55):
Wanted her to see his face and know that I'm
fucking not giving up on this.

Speaker 1 (01:44:00):
So yeah, fucking mom's damn. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:44:06):
So she's in prison and they are looking into the
death and they're not giving up on it.

Speaker 1 (01:44:11):
Nice. That is your black widow, Sandra Bridewell, You.

Speaker 2 (01:44:15):
Guys, that was amazing. You know what I think would
be fun? Huh? We should ask Stephen, because you know,
Stephen puts that we find those pictures and then he
puts them on those immortises. Basically, we should tell him
put up one one random picture at the end, because

(01:44:37):
for some reason, I just want to press this button
one more time. But there's nothing. There's Betsy.

Speaker 1 (01:44:41):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:44:43):
Oh my god, I pulled the lights. I just put
us into a vacuum. Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:44:50):
Well, that's her with that's Alan right there with her
her children.

Speaker 1 (01:44:55):
Look how cutious?

Speaker 5 (01:44:56):
Wait?

Speaker 1 (01:44:56):
And so is that is that hers? Yeah? She looks
different in every picture, like I don't hurt the other
one wasn't. No, No, I know that. But then that's
her there with him too, as right, But.

Speaker 2 (01:45:09):
That doesn't look like the lady's laying sideways with her
weird eighties hair.

Speaker 3 (01:45:13):
To me, I think that's fair. Do you think it's
a bunch of different women.

Speaker 2 (01:45:19):
Yeah, finally I get to say my theory.

Speaker 1 (01:45:22):
We solve it. It's quadruplets. Okay, we're back. Are there
any updates for that story?

Speaker 3 (01:45:32):
There are some updates. No one has ever been charged
in the death of Alan Rerigg. In twenty twenty four,
true crime author John Leek released the book The Meaning
of Malice on the Trail of the Black Widow of
Highland Park. It tells a story of Sandra Bridewell and
presents new evidence and exposes how she evaded scrutiny.

Speaker 1 (01:45:50):
By law enforcement. So check that out.

Speaker 3 (01:45:53):
And the podcast Fatal Beauty also does a deep dive
on Sandra, so check that out as well.

Speaker 2 (01:45:58):
And then let's go back and listen to the hometown
that we got at this live show.

Speaker 1 (01:46:06):
Okay, do we have time, Yeah, let's do atown murder
you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:46:13):
It's just like under that thing I was like in
that table big time.

Speaker 1 (01:46:18):
Okay, the rules, Okay, listen, this.

Speaker 2 (01:46:21):
Is the hometown murder part where we want somebody to
come up here and tell us your hometown murder.

Speaker 1 (01:46:26):
We'd love it if it was local, we love it
if it was short.

Speaker 2 (01:46:28):
You're not allowed to read off paper, and you can't
be so drunk that you can't follow your own line
of thinking. You have to be able to tell your
story concisely.

Speaker 1 (01:46:38):
Can we get Oh god, oh my god, this is
I'm panicking. Everyone looks so nice now about you and this? Yeah,
you in the front.

Speaker 2 (01:46:50):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (01:46:50):
She made a face like all right.

Speaker 2 (01:46:52):
That's gonna be good. And that's a good sign. There's Vince.

Speaker 1 (01:47:04):
Him.

Speaker 2 (01:47:06):
Angela, Hi, Angela, Hi, Angela, Hi, Come get any stand
in the middle.

Speaker 1 (01:47:11):
Come here, okay, here cool? Sure? Yeah? Where are you from?
Fort Worth? Fort Worth? Yeah? Really bright?

Speaker 3 (01:47:21):
I know it's bright or you have to see all
the people and it's scary, so you just have.

Speaker 5 (01:47:25):
To go to Blight's Okay. So I went to high
school with the killer, hung out together. Oh he was
a jerk, though he made fun of me for being fat.

Speaker 1 (01:47:35):
Fuck damn.

Speaker 5 (01:47:38):
Yeah, So y'all didn't cover anything fort Worth. But we
had a serial killer in the eighties.

Speaker 2 (01:47:44):
But well, did you come up here to admonish us
because you'll get fucking kicked.

Speaker 1 (01:47:50):
Off this stick? Oh mind's really good. Don't kick me off?
Please don't Okay okay.

Speaker 5 (01:47:58):
So September noineteen eighty four, there was a girl named
Ginger Hayden and her mother found her murdered in her
apartment bedroom.

Speaker 4 (01:48:07):
She had been stabbed fifty seven times.

Speaker 5 (01:48:09):
Foo and I went to high school with Ginger and
she was hanging out with all the same people I
hung out with. But for whatever reason that summer I
didn't hang out with them. So I didn't know Ginger well.
But it was a cold case. I do remember. I
went to her funeral and that was one of the
saddest things ever. Yeah, but so for years they didn't

(01:48:31):
know who did it. They for twenty six years they
didn't know, but they thought it was either the boyfriend,
the neighbor, or there was actually a rapist who lived
to the apartments too, like pick one true, great, a.

Speaker 4 (01:48:44):
COMPLX, great complex food just there.

Speaker 2 (01:48:47):
Later they're like, interesting, stuff's happening over there, ginger lived
over there.

Speaker 5 (01:48:58):
But yeah, twenty six years later, DNA showed that this guy,
she who we all actually knew he did it, and
he kind of freaked out six months later after the
murder and left.

Speaker 4 (01:49:07):
He said, you guys thought I think I did it.

Speaker 5 (01:49:09):
And he left and they never saw him again, which
is one of those Okay, instantly you know he's the one.

Speaker 4 (01:49:16):
But yeah, so now he's serving a life sentence in prison.

Speaker 1 (01:49:20):
Yeah that's great. So he was one of the kids
who hung out in the group, and was he her
boyfriend or he's.

Speaker 4 (01:49:29):
He was in love with her, but she was with
somebody else, and.

Speaker 1 (01:49:32):
They didn't look into him. They never suspected him.

Speaker 4 (01:49:35):
Oh they did, they just couldn't.

Speaker 3 (01:49:36):
P Yeah, and the good old DNA, our friend DNA. Yeah,
oh my god, that's amazing.

Speaker 5 (01:49:42):
Yeah, it was really weird because when the when the
trial starts happening, Okay, there was a few of us
girls who always kind of kept up with it, and
we kept writing through the reporters, going are you going
to cover it?

Speaker 4 (01:49:51):
Well?

Speaker 5 (01:49:51):
When it came about the judge wouldn't let the reporters in.
He would not let them have Chevy cameras. So most
of the local news didn't really cover it. But this
one reporter wrote about it, and she quoted me saying
we never forgot her. That was not me saying I
was her friend, because that would be disrespectful because I
didn't know her that well. But all of a sudden,

(01:50:13):
forty eight hours is calling me, and different reporters are
calling me, and I'm.

Speaker 4 (01:50:16):
Like, no, I can't put on. But it was so funny.
The guy from forty eight hours.

Speaker 5 (01:50:22):
Was like, you went to high school with my uncle,
and I was like, dude, you hadn't get forty eight hours.

Speaker 4 (01:50:33):
I did not let myself get interviewed.

Speaker 5 (01:50:35):
Okay, nobody else would either, because they were afraid if
he was found not guilty, come actress.

Speaker 1 (01:50:41):
But he's guilty and he's away for hours. Yeah, oh good,
Oh my god. That was amazing job. Here, yes, here,
you get the red one Angela.

Speaker 4 (01:50:56):
And by the way, my niece is with me. He
had to be ip to meet her.

Speaker 5 (01:51:00):
Oh great, her husband's family knew the eyeball killer.

Speaker 1 (01:51:05):
Wow. Oh honey, where'd you go to see her? Where
she's laying on the floor. Let's hear for Angela, everybody.
That was amazing cream. Oh my god, what a perfect ending,
What a perfect ending.

Speaker 2 (01:51:28):
Okay, we're back, George. You want to give any updates
for that hometown?

Speaker 3 (01:51:32):
Sure, there are no updates, but Shane Absalom remains in
prison serving a life sentence for Ginger Hayden's murder.

Speaker 2 (01:51:39):
All right, well, let's move on to the title. Then.
This episode was originally titled Live at the Majestic Theater
in Dallas, but there's some suggestions for what we could
name it today.

Speaker 1 (01:51:49):
Let's name it a trough of mac and Cheese.

Speaker 2 (01:51:52):
I want that right now, So aka, everything I ate
on tour for five years.

Speaker 1 (01:51:57):
Surely, and then I deserve wreck UNEs for sure, you do.

Speaker 2 (01:52:02):
We all do a fourhand massage with raccoons. There's also cults. Cults, cults,
which is you talking about? Basically, both of our stories
are kind of culty.

Speaker 1 (01:52:12):
Yeah, and then the barfing arc.

Speaker 2 (01:52:14):
Well, that's rewind. This is what this show is. We've
done it, you did it, and we're actually going to
say goodbye. From way back in twenty seventeen Dallas, these
shows have been so fucking incredible. We knew it was
going to be good because you guys, from the beginning
of this podcast have had this area in Houston, sorry,

(01:52:37):
both places have had the highest number of listeners for our.

Speaker 1 (01:52:41):
Podcasts from kind of Ball across the board.

Speaker 3 (01:52:46):
Yeah, you guys have been so supportive of us, and
we appreciate it so much. Everyone we've met this weekend
has been so kind and every show has been so
much fun and supportive.

Speaker 1 (01:52:56):
And fucking loud. You guys are so awesome. It really.

Speaker 2 (01:53:03):
It sounds super cheesy, but we really mean it. The
fact that this is what we get to do for
a fucking living now is the funnest and most exciting thing,
and it's.

Speaker 1 (01:53:11):
Because of your support.

Speaker 2 (01:53:13):
Thank you so much for being here, Thank you so
much for listening, and of course, as always, stay sexy and.

Speaker 1 (01:53:24):
Bye you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:53:26):
Thank you

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Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 101: Live At The Majestic Theatre in Dallas

Episode Transcript

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Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

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