Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 108: King of Police - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello, Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.
This is that show where we look back on our
old episodes from twenty eighteen with new insights, case updates,

(00:27):
and pop culture references.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Today we're rewinding to episode one oh eight, which we
named King of Police.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
This episode originally came out February fifteenth, twenty eighteen, so.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Let's listen to the intro of episode one oh eight.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Hello, Hi, and welcome to my favorite im mirror deior
podcast that tells you it's just things, fucking tons of random,
terrible things.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Right without curse words. That's right. This is a This
is an all.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Christian podcast, child friendly, a child friendly, religious based.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
We've got fucking railroad or what are they called trains
going by in the background.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Coast trains. We don't believe in evolution. Everything you could
want in a podcast. Wow, that train's loud.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Do you know. I got into an uber the other
day and like there was this rock music playing and
I was like, okay, rock music great, and.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
Then it was like the lyrics were like.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Oh fuck, you're trying to sell me hard on Jesus
age Christ and you.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
Were like, haa nogila I've had that a couple of
times in ubers, where I feel like people are like
they're trying to work, they're trying to make a dollar,
but they're also like, well, I could kill tubers with
one stone and be spreading the word of our Lord.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
I wonder if there's like a cult of you know,
Jesus people who are like, this is how we're going
to get people on as We're going to uh yeah
uber and play.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
Pretty good rock? Me is it pretty good? Passable? It's
so funny.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
I did Dave Holmes Friday forty last Friday, christ Fairbanks
of do you need to ride?

Speaker 3 (02:11):
And he said it's first I can't remember how it
came up.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
But he goes, have you ever had that thing where
you you start to hear a song, you really like it,
and then you realize it's Christian.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
Then you realize you're like a hypocrite for not liking
I know what happened.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Well, I don't want to hear about how he lifts
you up and you raise your your kid.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
Does in the air.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
He lifts you like dirty dancing style like Pasture Swayze.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
No one puts Jesus in a corner boom and the
podcast Boom good, lie out. Fuck all y'all? Hey, can
I do? Can I read this?

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Because fine, I've been exposed as being obsessed with bowling.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Fine, I don't care anymore. Why are we bowled yet?
You know we've had at least two days.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
So someone sent us a picture of the bowling socks
I was talking about last on the minnesot the minuisode.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
Exactly as I described.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
Three bowling pins, a red bowling ball and what looks
like puffs of air at the bottom. Do you think
that's the speed of the ball hitting those because.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
It's like it's like the it's almost like a bombs
goes off.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yes, on your ankles. Yeah, And there these ones It
says this is for a hard stark.

Speaker 3 (03:27):
That's you, Georgia. Think o.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Because this is Instagram Stephen Ray Morris. My favorite murder
I believe I got the mission bowling Club is that
in San Francisco. It is Gray Wing. This is from
Gray Wing on Instagram San Francisco.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
Ps. My grandmother is in the Bowling Hall of Fame.
What I'm so proud of your grandma? Who is she?

Speaker 1 (03:50):
We've please send us some more instrumental Gray Wang g R. E.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
Y W I G.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
San Francisco, California. If you could please send us a
very con sis book report three to five paragraphs about
your grandmother.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
With photographs from when she was playing bowling and as
an elderly woman.

Speaker 3 (04:10):
What if it's both. Oh my god, she started young
and went all the way into her to modern day.
I want to know what she carried in her purse
on a regular basis.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Hall of fame though, that's She's not just a great bowler,
she is of the greatest bowlers. And you know San Francisco,
I mean it's where that's where my people are from.

Speaker 3 (04:29):
Yah.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
That's why I'm so passionate about bowling. It's not like
they have a shortage of good bowler. So that means
she was really fucking good.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
That's right, It's what everyone's like up there. It matters.
We're gonna go bowling soon. Oh, today's Valentine's Day.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
Oh yeah, Happy Valentine's Day, everybody, thank you well, yesterday
was Valentine's Day.

Speaker 3 (04:49):
Based on the when this podcast is going.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
Am based on the reality you people live in, right,
not the one that we truly are stocking.

Speaker 3 (04:57):
We're currently drinking coffee and whiskey in that's right, We're
having such a Valentine's Day party.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
Steven's drinking coffee out of a cat mug, which is
his lifelong dream. Right, I'm drinking a coffee out of
an FBI mug.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
No sorry, La.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
County Corner mug, which is my dream. Georgia's having some
nice whiskey on ice out of a vintage fucking tumbler mug,
tumbler glass.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, it looks like something that would absolutely have been
left on my grandmother's nightstand, definitely. And then in the
background there is a train that has not There hasn't
been a train that's come by here in twenty five years.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Really in our lives.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
I wanted to tell you that after a twenty year hiatus,
I am again reading stranger beside me.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
Oh really yeah, what brought you back to us? Zach Effron, Well,
people want to hear people want us to talk about that.
We have talked about it, I.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Know, but they want to say, there's more photos now, okay,
and as now that I'm reading it and like in it,
I see the phone is and like, I know when
that was like supposed to have happened, and.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
When when did Ted Bundy go through a weightlifting phase.
That's the question I have because the first photo, I
really think he's too cut. He's insanely cut for from
what I in my limited, as we all know, extremely
limited research, he Ted Bundy always seemed like kind of
a skinny, little professorial type.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
I think it's like a skinny, but like, what is it?
You know, like a tennis.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Player sinewy sinewy, He's this is why you wanted Gary Sinisey.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
Maybe we just happened to Is it snise or you're
just saying that because he is.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
There's someone you said he wanted to play him before
this whole Efron was not Gary?

Speaker 3 (06:46):
Who was it?

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yep?

Speaker 1 (06:47):
Stephen, Come on, you can't put your hands up like
you don't work here, you son of a bitch, Steven Stephen,
you had one job.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Job memorize.

Speaker 4 (06:58):
I say, it's not Garry City, No, it's it's Oh,
he's someone who lives like that Ted Bundy.

Speaker 3 (07:08):
Who would you want to play? Let's let's go, let's
start over. Who do you think she played? Ted Bundy?
Not Zac Efron.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Let me stroke my minorly invisible beard.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
Uh, it's forget it. Edit this out.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
No, this is this is Steven's like you don't desire
It looks like Bill Pullman.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
Okay, I remember this, and I remember when it hit me.
I was like, I am a fucking casting genius.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
You were.

Speaker 3 (07:40):
And he's in the movie. It's not Chris Pine, is he?

Speaker 2 (07:44):
No?

Speaker 3 (07:44):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Is he in the movie with Jack Nicholson? When Jack
Nicholson is Greg. There are people who have been screaming
at their.

Speaker 3 (07:56):
Machine. Gary and Greg so similar. You were right there
with that G.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
I mean with the four letter word and the G
Greg kinnear Is that with dark hair?

Speaker 3 (08:07):
Because his eyes are little.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
He's good looking classically, but his eyes are just enough
close together that you are suspicious of his.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
Agenda. Is this train circling the apartment? I think the
train is coming for us?

Speaker 3 (08:21):
Can you hear it? Steven?

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Okay, good, it's we're tight on the track right now.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
We haven't been our rent.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Stephen is twirling his mustache as he watches us tied
to the track.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
Oh good, Buster Keaton's here.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Oh great, you know I'm having now of course, I'm
having Ted Bundy nightmares.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
And because you're in that book and I keep saying
stop reading this Storgia. Stop reading this Storgia, and I
can't put it down. It's so good, it's so good,
and it's also so dated.

Speaker 3 (08:50):
And Anne rule like she should never have died because
she just needs to keep updating this book.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
It's the idea, like when she tells that story, the
idea that she was this single mother who was trying,
who was working for the police department, but it was
also trying to be a freelance writer.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
And she's like, what are the fucking chances?

Speaker 1 (09:09):
The chances, and she's but she's also volunteering at night,
like what a badass, and then she volunteers next to
pretty much wanted second.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
Only to like Ed Gaen or Dahmer like the.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
Most maybe Dahmer Gacy, but like, yeah, no, I think everyone.
I think Ted Bundy was relatable to everyone because he
was hot.

Speaker 3 (09:31):
Yes, he was so tricky.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
He was the ultimate like wolf in Sheep's clothes, totally,
he was He's she doesn't even.

Speaker 3 (09:38):
Believe that he could have done it for sure, so
I believe it.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
When it was like it's we've found a man in
a gold Volkswagen Bud, she called her.

Speaker 3 (09:47):
Friends of the detective agency and was like, just look
into my friend. I know this is weird. Like she
even turned him in and she was like, I don't
it can't be it can't be him.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
But could you look because she was like, I can't
deny stacking up facts, but still it's not him.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
I know it's not him, and I'll yeah, Uh.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
That's the classic sociopathic or psycho.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
But we didn't know it at the well we I
wasn't boring.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Uh they you know, they didn't know it at the time,
that that was a thing that even though someone doesn't
look like a fucking murderer or act.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
Like it, no one those people don't act like murderers.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, well now we know what. Well, so the movie
is coming out with Zac Effron. I hope he kills it.
I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 3 (10:33):
I think he will.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
I think he looks like him enough. And the other
thing that she keeps talking about is that, uh, he
was like a shape shifter, that he looked different all
the time, which is why it was so hard to
pin down. Is that he kind of always changed his look.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
In fact, you can if you look it up online,
and I'm sure everyone that's most of the people listening
have already seen this, but there is a collage of
his mugshots and you can see how the way they
couldn't like when he went from Seattle to Utah.

Speaker 3 (11:02):
And it's not even like a beard or not a beard.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
It's just this look in his face. It's so different
and that's the spookiest part.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, and then by the time he gets to Florida,
he's just a fucking maniac.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
She Zafron. Man, what a fucking roll? Yeah, I can
do it? What a dream. Well, so there's this, there's
this doctor Jentry. Can I just say this? He can't.
I hope he knows.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
And if they're still shooting and he can, hear me,
don't smile with your eyes, because that's it. You gotta
go dead zone totally with those crazy eyes. Totally because
zach Efron's a big like he's like. One of the
reasons he's like a Disney star is because he's one
of those twelve year old boys that would wink at
a grown woman. It's a specific he's a he's a Ryan.

Speaker 3 (11:50):
Let's do this again. Oh my god, he's a Ryan.
Let's do it some more. One everyone loves I don't
like him. Stephen Seacrest.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
No, are you fucking kidding me, Stevid.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
He's the one, you know, the blonde one who was
in Drive Drive right, Yes, he's a gosling. You were
almost fired. Oh he's a gosling Seacrest. God damn it.
Stephen out.

Speaker 3 (12:20):
Of a job.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
That's how you fire Stephen if that's how Ryan Seacrest
fires people. Joanne out of accounting, Oh, Joanne, Joanne, she
did her best.

Speaker 3 (12:29):
She tried.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
But someone knows Something. Season four started h loving it.
David Riggan.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
I love something, someone knows something. He's so good. This
new one is about I love something something something. This
new one is.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
About this dude who gets sent this bomb explodes in
his fucking hands. Dies still hasn't been solved. It was
like nineteen ninety six. What goes back to fucking figure
out what happened. It's super good, all right, And I'm
really angry because they didn't drop all the episodes at once.
Oh you to wait, which is so.

Speaker 3 (13:01):
Smart, but there's nothing more than having to wait. But
I hate it. That's great. Yeah, it's good. Does he
does he crunch down any country lanes?

Speaker 2 (13:09):
He fucking does his signature crunching to the towards the
door from his car.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
Beautiful he does. It's his thing, it's his signature.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
I see him in my mind as I listen to
him do that, and it's such a delightful and yet
also incredibly upsetting movie.

Speaker 3 (13:25):
Only he can get away with that.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
Yeah, because it's such a documentary filmmaker thing to do.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's so exciting that that there's
another season.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Okay, that's all I have to say. And we are.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
Back so much Jesus, so much Christian talk.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
We love it, we really do. When was the last
time you went bowling?

Speaker 1 (13:50):
Oh recently? It's a thing I do when I go
home a lot.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Okay, I love bowling.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
I do too until I get like halfway through, and
then I'm like, this is because I'm not good at it.
So like once you know, you're not gonna get over
a hundred ever, Yeah right, you know.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
But those shoes are so cute.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
I think it's like just a repetitive action of something
to do that keeps you from like standing around making
awkward small talk.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
I always kind of love that.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
That's a good point and it usually turns into something else,
Like in my you know in that town where it's like,
now we're going to go to the Buckhorn.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
Yeah, that makes total sense.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
I'll always go bowling if someone asked me to go,
It's like, yeah, it's so fun.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
I was just talking about that.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
How I love I really want to do a weekly
thing that repeats every week, no matter what where.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
It's like a thing you can always do that. People
will always be there where, whether it's like majong or bowling,
or just like a dinner or something where you're just
kind of like it's just the the gathering itself is
kind of like the practice. Yeah, that's such an old
lady thing to say.

Speaker 3 (14:58):
No, you've always liked that, the like game. I you know, yes, exactly,
nothing right, I never do a shit like that.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
I know a book club.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
I'm always threatening to fucking start a book club, but.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
The book club is like homework club, Like you can't
tell me what to do, even though I agree to it.
And maybe it was my idea of the first place.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
How dare you?

Speaker 2 (15:18):
I've never I've never been to a book club in
my life. I've only seen them on the screen.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
I think it's really funny. I've never been invited to
a book.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
I don't think they exist. I don't think they exist
in real life. I think people are fucking lying now us.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
I don't think they exist. For girls like you and me,
I think that's what it is. They're just like, oh
maybe next time.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, we're reading something way above your pay grade. A
lot of people who will do the reading, not buy
about the book in the group, not get drunk first,
not yell at people during the book, not.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
Tell them they're wrong. No, that's a very good point.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
I only say that because in the nineties we started
like a se a cold reading kind of scene class
and it was just a bunch of comics who didn't
want to be so bad at auditioning. But the majority
of us would just get super drunk during the class,
and then the people who started it got really bad.
Oh my god, we were trying to work here.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
We're like, we're having fun. It's our class now, bitch.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Oh just remember when everything with someone knows something.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
I love someone knows something. It's so comforting.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
And he's got eight seasons out now, Yeah, that's amazing.

Speaker 3 (16:26):
He's Canadian, right, Yeah, yeah, it's CBC.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
You can rely on the Canadians to come through.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
Yeah, it turns out they have a lot of true crime.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
You guys, we think they're all innocent and like, you know,
like light the preppy cousin of us.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
But no, they've got some shit on their shoes, not
all maple syrup and pie. How are you? They don't
say that, don't they? All? Right, Well, so should we
get into your story? You're crazy? Oh, you're crazy? Story
that's so bad?

Speaker 2 (16:54):
All right, let's listen to Karen's story about Matthew Hoffman
and the twenty ten tree murders.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
Okay, so this was a story that I wanted to
do when we were in Columbus.

Speaker 3 (17:12):
Okay, but it's too awful. Oh good, So I'm going
to go back.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
I know that these days I've been doing lots of
slightly off kilter, lighter whatever types of stories. I've gone
all the way back to the ridge. This is a
fucking awful, awful and recent murder.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
And you can't tell them why you can't do it
at live shows?

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Well, in live shows, well, first of all, we have
to have stuff that we can talk about and riff
about and like and connect over and kind of go like, wait,
what did you just say or whatever? And when it's
a especially if it's a recent murder, if children are involved,
if it's unsolved, if it's you know, just if it's

(17:57):
if it's just relentless horror, if it hits too close
to home, Yeah, you just don't want to it's horrible.

Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
And also I think everyone together, I mean, we've had
times where we've talked about really hard stuff but then
but it can't just be that way the whole time.
So but when I was looking this up, I was
on I was like, I think it might be worth it,
because there's an element to this that is so fascinating.
It's it kind of transcends the horror of what happened.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Well, I think we should do whatever we want when
it's you and I. Yeah, right, and they're Steven. But
at live shows it's hard to do really horrifically.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah yeah, just like look, I mean there is an
interesting element to like grieving with two thousand people at
a time.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
But not when they're mad at you.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, Okay, it's just hard. But so I can just
tell you this and then tell me it can listen.
I'm just gonna tell you no one else is listening. Steven,
please put those headphones on more so, this is this
happened in Mount Vernon, Ohio. Last note November, holy like
as in four months ago, four months ago.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
November December, January. Oh shit, four fucking months ago. Happy
twenty eighteen. By the way, can we even say that
it's Valentine's Day?

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Happy Valentine's Day and an upcoming President's Day. So on
November tenth of last year, when Tina Herman didn't show
up for work at Dairy Queen, her boss goes over
to her house to check and see what's going on,
and when he gets there, he finds it littered with
beer cans and covered in blood. It was actually described

(19:32):
as looking like a horror movie inside the house. Oh god,
So of course he immediately calls the police. Tina's not
in the house, her thirteen year old daughter's not in
the house, her eleven year old son's not in the house,
and her friend, whose car is in the driveway is
not in the house. So immediately the police start a

(19:54):
massive manhunt. There's people walking around on foot, it's in
the air like. The whole area goes crazy. The next night,
Tina Herman's pickup truck is found near the Canyon College campus.
They actually when they found the pickup truck, they did
a lockdown on the school because they thought maybe the
guy was nearby. The police interview people that are walking

(20:16):
around the area. They don't find anything suspicious. Back at
Tina Herman's house, the police that are processing the scene
find Walmart bags with a receipt. A Walmart bag with
a receipt inside, and the receipt shows purchasing of garbage
bags and a large heavy duty tarp.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
Never good.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Not all.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
The police are like, you know what, I remember this
chapter in school, bad fucking news. So they go to
that Walmart that's on the receipt. They check their surveillance
video the time the receipt, and on it it clearly
shows a very a young not very young, but a young,
brown haired man probably in his early thirties, buying these

(20:58):
items at the store. And on the video they can
also see when he leaves, they see him drive by
in his Yarus Yaris.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
I was not expecting that. That's right.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
There are a lot of people drive Yaruses proudly, and
this guy was one of them.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
So he it's all like right there on the table.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
So the cops go to the DMV they search the records,
they cross check whatever yruses, they go to. All the
Yarris owners check yards. They arrest all of them for
bad taste. I'm joking, Oh my god, onslaught of yards.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
I know it's a good car, Daarrey.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
I bought this with my own money, although I had
to tell you my friend Tsha and I we bought.
I bought my Honda Fit at the same time she
bought her Yarus and she was trying to dide between
the two, and I was always like, you gotta go
with this Honda Fit, and she was like, Nope, I
think I'm gonna go with the RS. And I was
just like, I felt so like it was like smug

(21:54):
UCLA versus USC. It's just like goodbye, Yeah, you're not
We're not on the same team anymore.

Speaker 3 (22:00):
Wow. I haven't spoken to her since Holy Ship. That's
how deep this Yara shit goes with me.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Okay, So they find out through the DMV records and
his driver's license, this man is Matthew Hoffman. He's a
thirty year old unemployed tree tremor. Then once they see
the pictures, one of the officers goes, I fucking talk
to that guy. Up at the college when we found
the truck, like one of the people, he questioned, Yep,
he was right nearby. So they're like, call everybody, we're

(22:31):
doing the right circle. The circle of wagons is what
most cops say when they think they.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
Have a person. Gather the gather the wagons, circle the troops.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
Gather our friends and let us go out together and
fight crime. Yes, so they fucking send the swat team
to this guy's house. And uh so this is this
basically takes four days. So four days after the family's
found missing, the cops kick his foot. I don't know
how it happened. It the cops kick down the fucking door.

(23:03):
Matthew Hoffman is sleeping on the couch inside in the
living room, and.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
Are you ready? No, your face looks unhappy.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
Well, it's just it's not horrifying, But it's this. They
find The entire living room is filled with leaves. What
huge pile of leaves? Leaves, leaves piled so high that
the police feared bodies might be buried underneath them.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
What the fuck?

Speaker 1 (23:33):
So many fucking leaves. Mount Vernon police detective Craig Feeney
told the Columbus Dispatch, so much runs through your mind.
What if somebody's hiding under that pile, or in this case, I.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
Thought, what if that's where he's hiding the bodies?

Speaker 1 (23:47):
What the fuck leave leaves? They walk down the hall
to the bathroom.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
No, don't do it. You want to pull up these
pictures I brought you. No, uh huh.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
This is how I found the story. And it stopped
me so cold. I was just like, what in the
fuck are we doing?

Speaker 3 (24:03):
Oh my god, Oh my god. So this is the bathroom. No, no,
I'm showing you the picture.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
The walls of the bathroom are lined with plastic shopping
bags filled with leaves, and it looks insulated, like when it.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
Looks like insulation, like before you put on the dry wall,
you put bags of saves, camar and thank you, thank you,
thank you, and of like perfectly filled bags of leaves,
perfectly spaced, perfectly hung, each one right up the same,
with the same depth of you know, it's not.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
Like sloppy bags of leaves hung on the wall, the
piles of leaves hung the ground.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
I never heard of this, because it just happened. I think, Oh,
and so that's you.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, so it's it's not even like it's just leaves, legitimate,
it's not dirt and it's not gravel.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
It's just leaves.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
And isn't that something that's absolutely from.

Speaker 3 (24:59):
Like a David Finn. Yeah, because it's one.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
Of those things where it's like it doesn't mean anything,
but it's so creepy.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
Yes, as it is.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
It just like the moths and signs of the lamp
right where you're like, it's just moths.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
It's just a deal. People collect insects, I guess.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
I mean, you know, a bit the touch. Yeah, but
when that moth lands next to her and when.

Speaker 3 (25:20):
She's like, maw, here's your phone please.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
I always have to get one of those in there. Okay,
so love it. Finally they go down into the basement.
The basement, there's a door closed and it's barricaded with
this big sewing machine cabinet thing. When they break down
the door they get inside, they find Tina, herman's thirteen
year old.

Speaker 3 (25:40):
Daughter, alive.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
She's bound and gagged and she's laying on a makeshift
bed of leaves.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
Dude loves leaves.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
I mean, it's so fun and it's this dank, creepy basement.
Obviously she's been raped and she was wearing a plastic
bag with holes cut it for legs like a diaper.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
So creepy. Oh my gosh, he's arrested to take an eddica.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
How the fuck did I not see this? I don't know.
Twitter's algorithms are really disappointing me.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
I mean, I was so like, this was one of
those ones where I was just like, I don't know.
I think it's where I think this is the kind
of thing that people that are interested in your crime
when you hear a story where you're like, sorry, what
are we doing? Like what is this?

Speaker 2 (26:23):
But like I was in Columbus with you, and I
was like looking up Columbus murders to do for the show,
and I didn't fucking.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
See this, right, Okay, going, I mean I feel like
it was breaking news. Most of the articles that I
found to tell you about this were they were waiting
for like basically, once they found the girl, they still
didn't know where the family was and they still didn't
know They were like, we still have three people missing.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Thank god she's well and they and just so you.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Guys know, they they did print her name when they
first reported on the story. Then when they realized she
was a sexual assault victim. They stopped printing her name,
so that's why I'm not saying her name. So they're
questioning Matthew Hoffman. He's not saying anything. They said that
this reporter that was writing this, So these stories are

(27:08):
from the Columbus Dispatch and also from the Denver Post.
But they say there's hours of footage of police trying
to question him and him just not saying a word.
And then finally he tells the police that he wants
to confess because he has a bad dream about being
at a food processing plant. Oh no, so he tells

(27:30):
police he opened up in the dream, he opened up
a trash bag at the food processing plant, and he
saw cut up body parts and he got a nod
in his stomach, and it all quote unquote came back
to him. And so finally he confesses to the murder
of Tina Herman, her eleven year old son Cody, and
her friend Stephanie Sprang, whose car was in her driveway.

(27:51):
He tells police that he waited in the woods across
the street from Tina Herman's house the night before. He
was up in a tree leaves on a employed tree trimmer.
He's got a tree issue. He's up in a tree.
He watches the house all night. At nine in the morning,
he sees Tina herman leave the house, so he thinks

(28:11):
the house is empty and the garage door doesn't go
down all the way, so he sees his this is
his chance to slip in.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
He goes into the house. He's he held police. Do
we know how is this going to come up? Like
how he knew who they were? He just it was
just a random.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
Well, he had already been arrested once before for burglarizing
a house by slipping it into an open garage door. Okay,
So when he told police he actually had only gone
in to burglarize the house, they believed that it was
basically an interrupted burglary because he had done it once
before and only burgled the house. Okay, And there's other

(28:49):
actenuating circumstances in his life that are different on this one.
But basically, Tina and her friend Stephanie came back to
the house and interrupted him an hour after he broke in,
and so he stabbed them.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
Both to death. Holy shit.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yes, And then he's dismembering their bodies and the kids
come home from school, so he stabs the eleven year
old boy to death in the doorway. The thirteen year
old daughter runs to her room, He grabs her, he
ties her up with an electric fan cord, and he

(29:29):
puts her in his truck or in his can't. It's
really weird because he did this thing where he had
a jeep, but then he also used Tina's truck and
that's why he's the one that left it at the college.
And he had gone on foot back somewhere and he
was walking back to drive the truck back to her house,

(29:50):
and that's when the cops started talking to him.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
So he had this whole plate cool, they didn't even
suspect him.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
Yeah, so something is fucking wrong with this dude.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
That's the old psychopath. They don't get nervous. They don't
They can look somebody in the eye and be like, yeah,
I'm just here on the bike path chilling out.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
So what had happened is he put these dismembered bodies
and the little girl. They don't think that the girl
saw the house, like maybe she was blindfolded or something,
because she didn't know anything about her.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
No, she didn't know. She just knew she was kidnapped.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
Baby so he dropped her off at his house, put
her in that basement, then left. He drove to the
Cocoasing I'm sure I'm saying it wrong, the Cocosing wildlife area,
which was apparently he was a big outdoorsman, and he
uh like, went there a lot and camped out a

(30:47):
lot and you know, liked trees a lot. He with
a rope and pulley system. He pulled their body parts
up and put them into a sixty foot hollow tree.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
And hid them there. So holy shit, that like when
we've cross my mind.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yes, no, no, no, no, it's like it's it's beyond
the perfect and most like obscure hiding place.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
The police were like, if we didn't make the deal.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
Because he said, I'll tell you where the bodies are
if you don't give me the death penalty, the police
were like, if we didn't do that, we would have.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
Never found these. That was my mind, because I have this,
you know, this in mind of like what.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Like where are all the bodies Like there are over
the whole globe, there are bodies hidden in crazy forests
and weird places.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
And yeah, that wouldn't even fucking cross my mind. Now
I have a whole nother fucking thing to worry about.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
Well, and also because it's up so high that like
it's all this premeditation, it's this plan, it's this like
everything about it. And then it also makes me go like, oh,
who put Bella in the witch ell? Yeah, it's that weird,
Like the tree thing, it's real.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
Oh God, now I have a whole nother thing to
worry about. Yeah, it's so crazy.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
We're gonna lump it right into just the forest issue
that we always.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
Do pilot under that. Yeah, it's just not going to
be buried this time.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
Basically, he planned to then once he went and picked
that truck up, he was going to take it back
to her house, burn the house down, and like get
rid of all the evidence. That was his plan, and
then he told police that he also planned to. He
said he was really nice to the daughter and that
he planned.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
To just keep her for a little while.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
He was going to they played video games, they read books,
they watched movies. He gave her hamburgers, blah blah blah,
and then he was just gonna let her eventually let
her run away. She'd be home by Christmas. This is
what he told the fucking police, like he had this
whole fantasy that he was actually really he was a
good guy and he.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
Was want to do these things, but he was putting
this what.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
A fucking dick well and also just mental illness gone
beyond rampit, like just untreated, terrible, you know whatever. So essentially,
so they have of course, these newspapers have interviewed the neighbors,
and this guy has so many neighbors it's amazing, and

(33:14):
they all have something to say. One of the neighbors said,
there's only two trees near this guy's house, so she's
neighbor Jeanette Columber said he can't have possibly got that
many leaves from that tree. So he asked, all leaves
in here from somewhere, Do we know what the deal
with the leaves are? I mean, he's just obsessed with them. Yes,

(33:35):
it's like there was a they did interview, and I
think this is from the Columbus Dispatch.

Speaker 3 (33:40):
They interviewed a guy named doctor N. G.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Beryl, who is the director of the New York Center
for Neuropsychology and Forensic Behavioral Science. So that guy says,
you would have to talk to this guy to understand
what the connection is. But it's clear that this guy
is mentally ill beyond what we associate with normal serial
killers or murderers or psychopaths, because normally serial killers are

(34:05):
not technically mentally ill. They have these character disturbances, but
they know what's happening, and they know that they're doing wrong.
They like it, and that's part of the reason they're
doing They get pleasure and gratification from how the terrible
things they're doing and the torture that they are inflicting
on other people. He thinks that this guy had some

(34:25):
other thing happening and there was like obviously lots of
other issues at hand.

Speaker 3 (34:31):
God, it's so fucking nuts.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
So the neighbor, let's see, so Jeannette said, I don't
know those leaves could have filmed from because there's no
trees around here. Then a neighbor named Henderson Butcher says
that Matthew Hoffen was friendly but used to play around
the trees a lot around there a lot.

Speaker 3 (34:52):
He'd throw ropes up in the trees and had like
a hammock up in there.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
So in some part of the neighborhood that did have trees,
he would go.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
In and be in them all the time.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
Okay, fine, right, don fine, then fine, that's fine, just
go do that.

Speaker 3 (35:08):
A lot of people like trees.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
Donna, Davis, daw Na my favorite spelling of Donna ever,
it's all the good seventies names combined into one name.
She was another next door neighbor, and she said that
she told her children to stay indoors when Matthew Hoffman.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
Was outside, that's chill. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
And she said that he had moved in alone a
year before, and that his girlfriend had lived with them temporarily,
and then she moved out a month before the murders.
And she said this is what she said to the
Denver Post. He'd sit up and listen to us up
in a tree. He had a hammock and he would

(35:47):
just sit there and listen to us. She was just different.
He was very different.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
She said that he walked to Foundation Park almost every
day and was a quote your person who collected leaves.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
So I guess Foundation Park.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Was the park nearby that the other neighbors talking about,
and he would just go up in there. Also, his
house was in foreclosure and it had been uh it
started in January, so he was I think at the
end of like a serious, probably psychotic break. He makes
that huge confession and oh he also killed the fucking

(36:28):
family dog.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
So once he makes the confession and he said he
asked the investigator if I write down the location of
the bodies. He hadn't given a given away the location yet,
and he said, if I write these down, well, can
I then make a fake attempt to escape.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
And you shoot me?

Speaker 4 (36:49):
Ah?

Speaker 1 (36:51):
And the and the cop was like, no, We're not
going to do it that way. And so then he
wouldn't talk. He wouldn't tell them where they the bodies
were two full days and then he finally he finally
told him that whole story that I just told you.
And the police, of course when they saw were just like, yeah,
we had to we had to make this deal with

(37:11):
him because we would have never known sure. So in
the end, Matthew Hoffmann pled guilty to ten felonies, including
aggravated murder and rape, and he was given a life
sentence without the possibility of parole, and the Knox County
Prosecutor John Thatcher said that this Knox County has never

(37:33):
seen a case like this before. It has to rank
in Ohio history as one of the worst homicide cases.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
Ever my favorite murder history too. I mean, dude, so.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
Like I thought those leaves would like have something about
like the he buried the bodies and had to put
the leave somewhere. Well, yeah, directly, it's just he's But
that psychiatrist that they talked to you said, you know,
obviously this is all it's he has some kind of
a delusion and some kind of an obsession, so in

(38:05):
his mind, somewhere in his mind, and he would be
the only person I'd be able to explain.

Speaker 3 (38:09):
What that connection is.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
But right now there's nobody that can say, oh, he
did trees because murdered because a tree isn't. But like
just coming upon a picture of a living room filled
with fucking leaves.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
The bathroom is more troubling to me. Of just perfect
bags lined up and like whatever.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
Stapled to the wall.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
It's almost like inverted hoarders, like the same feeling I
had the first time I saw hoarders, but it's organized
and only leaves.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
Yeah, and on the wall. And then you've got to
be like, what happened? What's going on me? Everything? Now?

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Yes, Meanwhile, it's a grown man that climbs and plays
in trees.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
So like what was able to buy a house and
have a girlfriend and like how I don't it's so
crazy and plan the bose love bodies in a really
smart way.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
Yes, well yes, because once he was in it, it
was like that is the truth. Like that that psychologist
that gave it or psychiatrist whatever it was that gave
the difference. It's like, yes, he was mentally ill, clearly,
but he also knew what he did was wrong covered
it up, like, yes, he he had there was something
going on, but you can't keep it's the insanity defense

(39:26):
I don't think could apply, because he did he covered
up and hid those bodies and hit a girl, yeah,
and right to fucking girl, Like you know, this wasn't
some kind of like I went all over the place.
This isn't like Richard Chase that yeah, Sacramento Vampire where
you're like, what the fuck are you doing?

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Dude? Yeah, god damn it.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
Anyway, that's the Matthew Hoffman case of Mount Vernon.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
Jesus, I don't know how I would erect it on
stage to this well, I mean it would have felt
like that, like we're just like ugh, oh man, well
mine isn't much happier okay, but it's but it's interesting.

Speaker 3 (40:04):
Okay, good, all right, that's all.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, that's all we need from you people. You're not
what what this is our job?

Speaker 3 (40:11):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (40:16):
Oh that's a dark one. We are back, Karen. Do
you have any updates?

Speaker 1 (40:20):
Only that Matthew Hoffman is still serving his life sentence
at Toledo Correctional Institution and he remains ineligible for parole.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
And that's it. Wow.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, all right, this is an episode where we both
just do terrible stories.

Speaker 3 (40:34):
That's right, Let's go right into Georgia's.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
It's the story about little Gregory.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
All right, Well, this is one I hadn't ever heard of,
even though it's basically the like the French gen MAInet.
Oh have you heard of this one, Madeline McCann. No,
it's the French Madeline McCann. Oh, okay, French citizen.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
That's English, right, it's the Madeline McCann Jean Benet in France,
got it front bread France dressing with a side of France.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
This isle affair Depetite Gregory or the case of Little Gregory. Yeah, okay,
already awful. It's one of France's most high profile murders.
So in nineteen eighty one, in the small village of
near Vollon in eastern France, twenty six year old Jean

(41:35):
Marie Villeman is promoted to foreman at the.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
Car parts factory where he works.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
So after his promotion, he, Jean Marie and his wife Christine,
who's twenty four, like so young, right, start receiving threatening
anonymous phone calls from a person who knows a shit
hunt about their family, and he calls himself the raven.

(42:03):
Oh no, yeah, what yeah, So this person is calling
threatening he has this person's a hoarse voice, or it's
a woman disguising her voice. I listened to one of
the recordings from way back when, and it sounds like
a fucking woman to me for sure.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
Was it super creepy?

Speaker 2 (42:19):
Yeah, it's not even creepy. They're having a conversation. Oh no,
all right, So the person is angry with Jean Marie.
Once Jean Marie had been promoted. They think he's putting
on airs, he's got a lot of money, he's not
joining the union. And so a lot of the articles
about this, and like every video is in French. Sure,

(42:41):
so it's really hard to get information. I had to
do a lot of Google translation bullshit, so some of
it might be off, like the raven thing it's called
the crow and a lot of different like translations.

Speaker 3 (42:53):
Which is a totally different horrible death. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, so always ask me for French stuff because I
took I took all the way up through French too.

Speaker 3 (43:02):
So Belogne, Belange is blange, it's vlanges. Right, there's some
fucked up things here, Okay, Okay, So they're pissed off
at Jean Marie the Villamins. They alert the police and
they begin recording the phone calls, and so at that

(43:22):
point the phone calls stop and instead threatening letters start coming.
Do you think the raven knew the phone calls were
being recorded?

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah, okay, because it sounds like someone who was close
to the family. Oh so maybe even new like a mole. Yeah,
that's totally am So these threatening letters start coming in.
They are these rambling letters written in quote, long handed,
low class slang.

Speaker 3 (43:45):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
The letters are signed the Raven and say such things
as I'll have all your hides and I hate you.

Speaker 3 (43:51):
So much the day you die, I will spit on
your grave.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
And it's sent to the whole family, like you know,
the grandparents and all these things. God, So a window
of the house is broken in the villman house while
Christine is at home alone with the couple's young son
named Gregory. And also all the tires are slashed on
the family cars, so someone is threatening them, and it's
a small town and the person knows a lot about them.

(44:18):
The harassment goes on for three years without the villains
or the police having any idea who was behind it.
And then on October sixteenth, nineteen eighty four, at around
five thirty pm, Christine, who's inside doing some ironing, goes
out to bring Gregory in. He's four years old at

(44:39):
this point and she had left him outside to play
in the sand beside their house and he's not there.

Speaker 3 (44:44):
Oh god, no, get's worse.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
She gets in her car to drive around the small
town looking for him, thinking maybe he just wandered off.
But at that point, Jean Marie's brother receives a call
at work from an unidentified person telling him I have
taken the boy. Oh so a search begins, but by
nine to three that same night, Gregory is found in

(45:08):
the Vallon River, four miles from his home. Oh god, yeah,
so this is like I think there's so many similarities
to Jambonet case in this so little Gregory, he's this
sweet boy. There's this photo of him in the same
way that the photo of Jean Benet looking all smiley
and beautiful is known to us for ages. This photo

(45:29):
of Gregory is the same thing. He's sweet, smiling boy
with messy curly hair, little four year old. He's found
bound hand and foot. He's fully dressed. There's a photo
taken at the scene by a journalist. It's a roped
firefighter holding in his arms and like taking Gregory out
of the river. He's fully dressed in his blue anorak,

(45:54):
dark green velvet trousers and his like beanie still.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
On his head.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
Oh and it's published in the press the next day
and it traumatizes all of friends and everyone becomes obsessed
with this case.

Speaker 3 (46:08):
Yeah, so, uh he's dead? Did I say that? Yeah? Yeah,
you figure? Okay.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
The next day, Christine and Jean Marie receive an anonymous
letter that says to Jean Marie, addressed to him, I
hope you die of grief.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
Boss. Your money can't give you back your son. Here
is my revenge, you stupid bastard. Holy fuck in the
same way that the Gaenbrenet fucking letter was. It's so similar, right,
Oh remember, yes, but that was a ransom, a fake
ransom letter. Right, but it was like your money can't
help you.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
Yeah, oh that's true. You know that's right, Like I'm
jealous of your riches.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
Okay, so the investigation doesn't fucking start. Well.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
The lead investigator put on the case. He's the only
investigating magistrate in the district. He's thirty two year old
Jean Michel Lambert's. This is a very first investigation. No,
thirty two, can you I wouldn't trust a thirty two
year old to watch my fucking purse for five minutes.

Speaker 3 (47:07):
Dude, Sorry, Steven, how do you thirty?

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Wait a second, my wallet's gone state it. Uh no,
that's too young, too young. You need experienced people. Yeah,
it's a big fucking different. You need people when it's
an important thing.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
People have to know what they're doing.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
They have to have experience. They can't be in a
state of I need to prove myself.

Speaker 3 (47:31):
That's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
That's it's less like I don't know what I'm doing.
Then I don't know what I'm doing, and I need
to act like I know what I'm doing, Yes, so
I'm going to fucking overdo it.

Speaker 3 (47:41):
I can't listen. That's exactly what happens. You can't help me.
Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
Well, it's the same thing with the Jen Benet when
they sent the young inexperienced cops on Christmas fucking Day,
aram so thirty two year old Jean Michelle Lambert first investigation.
First of all, he fails to secure the crime scene,
and he also doesn't or a full autopsy. So the
autopsy has been criticized forever because it was incomplete and sloppy,

(48:06):
so they don't know. There's no bruises on the body.
Pathologists attribute the death to drowning and contact with the
cold water. They're not totally sure. They disagree whether he
had been drowned in the river or in tap water
because the lung the water and his lungs contain none
of the microscopic organisms that one would find in the river.
Oh that's so awful, I know, but they didn't do it.

(48:29):
But Lambert was like kind of trying to spare the
parents by not making them over autopsy.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
Poor Gregory.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
It doesn't work away, No, unfortunately, I mean, ultimately, yeah, So.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
From the beginning, suspicion falls on the family of Jean Marie.
The father, his parents, brothers, aunts and uncles and cousins
all lived nearby. And when jean Marie is promoted to
foreman way back when, some of the family members had been.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
Unhappy about it.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
So they think that the person who was writing the
letters the raven and the killer might be part of
his family out of jealousy. Yeah, basically, and he has
a big family that all lives in this area. So
police force hundreds of one hundred and forty members of
the Villaman family to take handwriting and dictation tests to

(49:17):
compare them to the letters and phone calls that have
been going on.

Speaker 3 (49:20):
Wow, one hundred and forty. Wow.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
They copied pages of the writing, including the text of
the last message from the raven, and after a month
after Gregory's murder, the fifteen year old sister in law
of jean Marie's cousin. So Jean Marie the dad of Gregory,
his cousin whose name is Bernard Laroche, his cousin's sister

(49:44):
in law who's fifteen years old, So she's just like nerdy,
redheaded fifteen year old totally early eighties, like not much.
Maybe a durand aand shirt on, but like no makeup.
She's not like yeah crock or whatever.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
Jacket, yeah, a comb holding one side of her hair, yeah, but.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
Like really nerdy comb.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, a math cone you know, yeah, yeah it's a ruler.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
Uh huh. So she's fifteen year old.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Fifteen years old, she comes forward and tells investigators that
the cousin, her brother in law who's married to her sister,
twenty nine year old Bernard Laroche, is the murderer.

Speaker 3 (50:21):
Oh fuck.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
She tells them that the day Gregory was killed, she
had been picked up by Bernard from high school and
taken to the villaman's house. They picked up Gregory and
headed for the river, and then they parked, and Bernard
went off with him and came back alone. So she's
fucking pinning it on her sister's husband.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
Is this like smiley, big boisterous looking, mustachioed, messy eighties
hair dude? Okay, played by like a young what's Roseanne's
husband on?

Speaker 3 (50:55):
Roseanne? John Goodman? Like a young John Goodman?

Speaker 1 (50:57):
I was thinking Vincentinofrio. No, okay, more jovial looking, Okay,
got it?

Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, good a good time guy, totally got it.

Speaker 3 (51:07):
But like, why are you smiling inappropriately in this photograph?

Speaker 2 (51:09):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (51:10):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Yeah, there's a photograph of the three of the cousin,
his wife and his wife's and the young Muriel her
name is Muriel Boyle. There's a photograph of the three
of them, and I just want to know if it's
taken before or after the murder, because it's inappropriately smiling
and creepy.

Speaker 3 (51:26):
Okay, you know what I mean? Yes, like there's something
about it.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
French people are screaming, they're what they think about really happened,
and I want to.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
Know they're like Julie was supposed to smile, legs.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
His way, right, so why are you smiling?

Speaker 3 (51:39):
Okay? I knew.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
I used to work with an over smiler who actually
I'm positive was ass.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
Because they don't know when it's appropriate, so they just
do it the whole time, right.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
And they it's this thing of it's almost like that
weird hypnosis kind of thing where it's just like, yes,
everything's fine, Like they're trying to control you with their mouth, right,
with their teeth.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
They learn that people, they learn that people mimic things,
so they just fucking do it.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
Like here this is friends friends friend see yeah, see,
which is like someone always trying to show you that
they're happy and smiling. Right, they're covering something.

Speaker 3 (52:16):
And you know inherently, but you're like, but they seem
so happy.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
Yeah, I have to mimic what they're doing because they're
setting this state. This, they're setting the tone.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
Of the room, which is we love everything.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
And then when you get older and stop giving a
shit about anything, you realize, like, you don't have to
do that, like when I stop, when I stop being
that way, which I am inherently like a person who
will mimic a person's happiness because I'm just uncomfortable that way. Yeah,
and I don't do it. Then I'm like, oh, this
isn't right. Yeah, I don't want to be here.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
It's well because it's like, what is why is this
person trying to control me this hard?

Speaker 2 (52:48):
Like?

Speaker 3 (52:48):
What is what do they not want me to be
paying attention to? Right? I mean this is that.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
Photograph in a nutshell from the eighties Okay with a
mustache Stephen?

Speaker 3 (53:02):
M Wait are you French? Stephen?

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Okay, So she says that blah blah blah, and then okay,
so Bernard the Sky, Bernard the cousin, and jean Marie
had played together as children, so they're from the same clan.
It's like a clan more than a family. It's almost
like Fargo that second season when they're like the big
crime fighter criming family, big crime family.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
They didn't fight crime, big crimed.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
But they had grown apart over the years, and Bernard
was an unkempt, often profane man with a mustache, and
he and his wife they also had a four year
old child, but he was had a learning disability. Okay,
so they both had four year old children. But Gregory
was this beautiful, smiling, happy baby that everyone loved, and
jean Marie had been promoted, he was getting all this money,

(53:53):
his dad was in charge of the plant. Well, meanwhile,
Bernard seemed to have a shitty fucking life, so they
didn't socialize anymore with jean Marie and Christine. But so
he wouldn't have known about the family a lot enough
to write these raven letters. But one of jean Marie's
brothers was good friends with Laurussia. He would have known

(54:16):
he didn't like the villaman's.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
Blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Okay, sot so this chick mural is like, my fucking
brother in law did it?

Speaker 3 (54:26):
I'm fifteen. What's up?

Speaker 2 (54:28):
At the spot where Muriel said they had stopped, the
investigators find a it's a vial of insulin and a
syringe they find on the ground. They make the investigators
think that Gregory had been put into a hypoglycemic coma

(54:48):
before being.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
Thrown into the river.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
Okay, so that made him unable to so he unable
to do anything right, and he was also tied up. Yeah,
but but there had been no toxicology report because the
autopsy wasn't done correctly, so they didn't know. They didn't
look for needle marks or anything like that. And so
Muriel says she wasn't aware of what her uncle was doing.

(55:12):
She had just been sitting in the car. But it
turns out that Muriel's mother, Janine, was a diabetic and
that Muriel was her insulin injector. Oh, so she might
have been more involved than she said she was, because
she would know how to do it right, or she.

Speaker 3 (55:26):
Would even have provided them with it.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
But then why would she fucking go to the cops
and say he did it, Like, if she's involved.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
That's a great question. So why would she do it? No, true,
why would she do it? Anyways, there's a lot of
questions here. Well, yeah, I mean that's the first and
she's fifteena.

Speaker 2 (55:42):
Feels as an adult and knows there's right and wrong
and your fucking bullshit fights with families don't matter.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
Yeah, because that's such a huge it's such a stretch
from I hate my rich cousin who gets everything, to
I'm going to kill.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
A child, Like not even kill your cousin, but to
take away the child is such a I want you.

Speaker 3 (56:04):
To suffer specifically, Yes, the most crazy. It's so awful, right.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
So, um, they test Bernard's handwriting, and experts say he
had written two of the poison pen letters, including the
one sent the day after the murder. So they say,
it's it's Bernard. It matches, it matches him.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
And this is in the time where they knew nothing
about handwriting analysis, Like that's back in these zodiac times
where they're like, no, it's not him.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
It's almost like it's in a time when they thought
they knew everything about handwriting analysis, and now we know
that they know nothing about hand running, you know what
I mean. It's like the opposite where they're like, you
can tell everything from that, and yeah, they're like no, no, no, no,
you can't do that.

Speaker 3 (56:40):
Right, you're making all kinds of insane assumption exactly, and
you sound really fucking smart. Yeah. Right.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
So Bernard is arrested and then Muriel gets the fifteen
year old gets sent back to her family's house and
a couple days later retracts her entire statement. What everyone
is like, Muriel like was bullied by her family into
retracting that statement.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
Oh everyone thinks that, Okay, how dare you turn on
the family? How dare you on the brother in law? This?

Speaker 2 (57:13):
You know, there's like insane like family like going back
probably hundreds of years within this small community with this
family or these families.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
And against the prosecutor's advice, Lambert the police investigating thirty
one year old dude. So the police investigator, even though
the public prosecutors like, don't fucking do this, they let
Bernard go because she retracts her statement, and they're like, well,

(57:44):
then let's let her go.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
But then that's it.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
Wow, there's because then there's no evidence that he's involved well,
they were saying, there's other evidence, right, so why wasn't
he held?

Speaker 3 (57:54):
Oh yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
On the day of his release, Jean Marie, Gregory's dad,
in front of a bunch of journalists, vows that he
would kill his cousin Bernard. Of course he did, right.
He vows to kill Bernard. Two journalists, two journalists.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
The Laroche family tries to get police protection, but the
police are like nope, oh no, nope, you can't have it.
H and so true to his fucking words. On March
twenty ninth, Jean Marie waits outside his cousin's house and
when he gets home, pulls up. He fucking approaches his cousin,

(58:33):
Bernard and shoots him with a hunting rifle. Oh fuck,
Bernard dies. Oh my god, my cousin dies.

Speaker 3 (58:41):
Goodbye, John Goodman, he's out of the picture. Jean Goodman,
Jean Goodman, Jean Gouband is dead.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
It's like it fucking John Ramsey had shot you know
his bo It's just insane.

Speaker 3 (58:55):
Yes, these steps people are taking.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
Also, it seems like reverse police work where it's like
let them go, don't investigate, like don't get details going.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
Yeah, like everything is it feels like.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
Arrest someone now quickly and let them go and then
try this and it's just like panaamping everyone up.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
Yes, and especially small town like anywhere in the world
like Boulder. Yeah, you know, exactly small town life where
everyone knows everyone's business and there's gossip and they're pressure exactly.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
So, uh, Bernard dies, Jean Marie immediately turns himself in
and he sentenced to five years for the killing.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
Whoa yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Meanwhile, Lambert, the police dude, is like, I know who
fucking did this. I'll tell you who fucking did this,
and he starts to build a case against Gregory's mother, Christine,
whoa uh, for the murder of her son. At this point,
she's six months pregnant too. Let's add that in for fun,

(59:59):
because this is a fun Lifetime movie.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Yeah, he's saying that the mother killed her son.

Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
Uh huh.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
Okay, this thirty three year old fucking press or investigator.

Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
He's been thirty one, thirty two, thirty three, They're all
the same. Everyone knows well.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Time is passing actually right, Okay, So three locals who
worked with Christine swore that they saw her at the
post office on the date before Gregory's death when the
revenge letter had been posted, which is like, I don't
think it was true.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
But also, who gives a fucking shit, you know, like
they're saying they saw her mail the revenge letter.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
They're saying they saw her the day the mail the
revenge letter was mailed at the post office.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Okay, all right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
Graphologists argued that there was an eighty percent chance that
she was the letter's author. So again with the fucking
Jambinet ransom letter. And we're all like, right, but then
they'd already said that he right the sign that they said, yeah, yeah,
they already said that the cousin was right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
If they're just changing it per thet ok go hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
And string that was identical to what was used to
tie up Gregory is found in the cellar of the
villaman's home.

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
Oh no, but it's like, I don't know who knows bag.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
I could have taken it there. That's the one string
they sell in this village.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
Also, in the Raven's letters, he accuses Christine of killing Gregory.
So they start to believe what the fucking raven is
saying because Gregory had been conceived.

Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
So they're saying Christine.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
Had been knocked up with Gregory in an extramarital affair,
and that's why she killed her son, which ultimately wasn't true,
proven to be untrue.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
That's fucked up, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
Because then they're just floating salacious shit that people love
to repeat.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
And keep in mind this whole time, if you were
alive during the Jambonet Ramsey investigation, it is the fucking
media is going out of their bucking minds.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Yeah, you know, front page glossy bullshit in every grocery store.
I don't know what they have in France that's equivalent
to that. It's going on. Everyone is eating it up,
and all these crazy theories are being, you know, just
thrown about.

Speaker 3 (01:02:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
I think it's a They have one big magazine called
Peris Match, and it just pictures of people smoking and
then terrible.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
Stories like that. That's what it is. Yeah, it's there.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Yeah, Christine is Christine ends up getting charged with the
murder of her son.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
No fucking way, Oh, because it's this guy's idea. Yeah,
and he's the Lambert say, the king of police.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
He's a French king of police. He is the king.
So the king of police. Lambert charges Christine.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
With this murder of her son based on this evidence
places her in a pre trialed attention in July of
nineteen eighty five. In protest, she goes on a fucking
eleven day hunger strike and is released and it isn't
until sorry, that works, I guess she's pregnant. Oh no, Yeah,
so she's released and it isn't intel. But they also,

(01:03:07):
I think, didn't have any like anything to hold her on. Right,
cut to nineteen ninety three. It is until nineteen ninety
three when the case is taken over by another investigating judge,
finally someone who's hopefully over fifty. Maurice Simon for real
that she's cleared. So between nineteen eighty five and nineteen
eighty three, people are speculating whether or not it's her,
oh constantly, and he and Maurice Simon is like, does

(01:03:31):
some fucking, you know, judgey magic thing sprinkle something on
her that's like she's never allowed to be fucking tried
for this again? Like, oh good, makes it so she
can never be brought up as a suspect again.

Speaker 3 (01:03:41):
Yeah's just pretty amazing. That's like, isn't that double jeopardy? No,
because she had never been brought to trial. Oh oh,
but he was just saying, like this is now put
to rest. Yeah, you can't break her up as a
fucking suspect again.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Sounds pretty decent. Yeah, the mother of the dead child, right, yeah,
Like photos of her man like at this time are heartbreaking.
There's a lot of photos.

Speaker 3 (01:04:04):
Going on in it's so eighties and so sad. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
And then in two thousand, the year two thousand, you've
heard of it, the case is reopened when Christiane's family
demands that DNA tests are carried out on the fucking
stamps that are in.

Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
The fucking letters.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
Yes, yeah, yes, unfortunately, and there's hundreds of these letters.
Three separate traces of DNA are found, but none of
them are identified.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
What for some reason none of these fucking.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
Okay, not much happens until this past June of twenty seventeen. Whoa, yeah, okay,
so we're both fucking we're all about twenty seven.

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
Currenting this fucking episode. I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
So in June, thirty two years after Gregory's murder, thirty
two years, no one has been taken into custody for
the murder since nineteen eighty five, when his mother was
fucking taken into custody. No one has even been a suspect.
Three people in connection with the case are taken into custody.

Speaker 3 (01:05:06):
Whoa, okay, you ready for this? Yes? So okay. The
aunt and uncle of Jean Marie Gregory's father, Anne Bernard,
the dead cousin, Jacqueline Jacob, she's seventy two, and her husband,
Marcel is seventy one, are arrested. No fucking way, fucking
old pupil. They were like in their forties at the time.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Thirty yeah, eighties, nineties, third yeah, forties. So okay, it's
so fucking confusing. So Marcel Jacob, the husband, the dude
is one of the younger brothers of Okay, it's basically
jean Marie's dad married Marcel's sister.

Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
Okay, it's Gregory's great aunt and uncle, got it. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
They're charged with kidnapping and confinement, but not the murder,
saying they were responsible for the murder Gregory since he
would not have died unless he had first been kidnapped.
So they think, fucking this chick, Jacqueline, who's now seventy two,
was the fucking mastermind and this whole entire thing and
made Bernard made was the letter writer and the woman

(01:06:15):
it sounds like a woman.

Speaker 3 (01:06:16):
She's the raven. Yeah, she's the raven. But they're all
involved in all hate this family and the day of
Bernard actually did the murder, but she was like the
distraction and the mastermind.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Whoa, this is like the second season of Fargo. Yeah,
I mean totally, like it really is. Because also it's
just that like what for what are you doing? Like
what is this plan?

Speaker 3 (01:06:43):
Totally and why the kid? Yeah, it's such a sick.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
It's like to hurt as much as possible. Also questioned
are Albert and Monique Villman, the parental grandparents of Gregory
eighty six and eighty five years old. So Gregory's fucking
grandparents on his father side, on John miy Shechell's side
are questioned as well. Okay, like everyone hated John Marie
and we're in on.

Speaker 3 (01:07:06):
This, even his own parents. I mean they're questioned. Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
So the charges against the great Ann and uncle follow
a modern handwriting and a modern thank God handwriting and
linguistic analysis of some two thousand letters of the Raven
letters and voice recordings that lead police to conclude that
the authors.

Speaker 3 (01:07:26):
Are a man and a woman.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
Okay, more than one hundred witnesses are also interviewed. Some
twelve thousand pieces of evidence run through an advanced artificial
intelligence program called ana crime, which sounds fucking so cool
that locates potential suspects at given moments and uncovers inconsistencies
and statements and alibis.

Speaker 3 (01:07:47):
How I think it's basically like this.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Person says I was there, and this person said you're, like,
it's and the pings are from here, and puts them
all together and it's like whatever they're saying isn't true.

Speaker 3 (01:07:56):
There's no way they could have been there.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
Because it's basically based on like how we're digitally and
kind of in some way recorded at all times.

Speaker 3 (01:08:03):
I don't even think that at that point.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
I think it's just based on statements who said you
were here, Who said you were there, You said you
were here. Oh that makes sense because there's they're talking
to so many people, but it's like them all together
and they're like, this person wasn't where they said they
were based on everyone's testimony.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
And the scary part, the scariest part about anti crime
is that there are also those robots that can open
doors now, did you see that video today? Yes, there's
that bothered me so much. It bothered me all day long.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
I didn't I didn't watch more than him walking because
it looked like a spider.

Speaker 3 (01:08:36):
It looks like a spider.

Speaker 1 (01:08:37):
And then there was a part where it turns before
it opens the door with a creepy g long vacuum
cleaner tube. No, and it does this like click click
where it moves really fast to one side and it's
so unnatural, like it looks very animal like. And then
it goes click click, and you're like, oh, what do
we I don't even know what this is.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
It's like, we want the end days to come. Yeah,
we're forcing it quick. Yeah, it's like we're begging it,
creating the end days.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
Yeah. It's like some some really smart guy that loves
robots and computers also watched The Terminator too many times
and he's like, we got to make this happen.

Speaker 3 (01:09:10):
But he never saw the beginning of the Terminator, like
the first scene in.

Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
The boardroom, right, He's like, this all looks great, and
he didn't watch the romantic parts because I argue that
the Terminator, the first one is one of the most
romantic movies of all time?

Speaker 3 (01:09:23):
Pretty beautiful? Yeah, God, And he goes to see his
wife and sees her gardening. Is that the right movie?
I think yes?

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
When he goes and he walks by before he knows,
like he's.

Speaker 3 (01:09:32):
Sees something and he's like that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
Also, just you gotta love a guy that keeps a
picture with him of the girl that he loves.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
Can I just tell you that I don't know a
year it came out, but it was way too early
for me to watch it. And that scene in the
boardroom in the beginning with the terminator just kills everyone
was so traumatic for me.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
I bet, yeah, No, that's it's It's just horrifing amazing movie.

Speaker 3 (01:09:58):
So good though.

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
Can I tell you how quick can I to do
a quick sidebar of Valentine's Day?

Speaker 3 (01:10:02):
Always Valentine's Day?

Speaker 1 (01:10:03):
That just reminded me. The picture things just reminded me.
We have family friends named the Malkenes. My one of
my dad's best friends is Kevin Gary and his sister,
Marilyn Mulkeen is the woman. Remember that high school picture
I showed you where I'm leaning against a ladder and
I have almost.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
A unibrows where you look like one of Kelly Bundy's
best friends. You look like Kelly Bundy's like, why Kelly
Bundy got into trouble.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
That's right, I'm her smoking friends. Yes, So Marilyn Mulkeen
was also because it's so small town. She also lived
next door to my best friend, Christine Good, and so
she took Christine's senior portrait, she took mine, she took everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
She's like a really great photographer. And when we were
I can't remember where we were.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
One time she told me the story of how her
and her husband Tom got together.

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
They were like childhood.

Speaker 1 (01:10:51):
He was friends with her, with Kevin and with the
boys and their in the Gary family. They were all
on vacation at the Russian River. I think the boys
he's worth like fourteen or thirteen, and she was like
eleven or twelve. And I tell the story because Marilyn
died in November of cancer, and it makes me super

(01:11:12):
sad because I hadn't seen her in a long time,
and she's truly one of the coolest. She was like
one of those cool people of your parents' friends where
were like, Oh, I want to talk to her.

Speaker 3 (01:11:20):
She's like, I'm going to tell you how it is
because no one else is.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
Yes, like she really was a legit rad lady. And
I'm very sad that she's passed away, but I still
have this story and I love it so much. So
she is a twelve year old girl is watching these
boys play in rough house and they all grabbed Tom
and who is like, you know, her older brother's cute friend.

(01:11:46):
And they're about to throw him into the Russian river,
and so he pulls his wallet out of his back
pocket and he tosses it to Marilyn. He goes hold
that for me as they throw him into the water,
and she catches it and it falls open in her hands,
and he has a picture of her in his and
they were married for fifty one years. And that is
my favorite. That's just a little sidebar Valentine's Day story.

(01:12:08):
It's my favorite love story of like when you are
a twelve year old girl and they're like a boy.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
Idea that a boy would.

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
Have your school picture in his wallet, like you're the girl,
I like love and then actually they actually end up married.

Speaker 3 (01:12:20):
Crush, the crush you have at twelve years old, well
never it just never.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
It never burns that break never again because it's so innocent,
and it's also so like idealistic, like you you know,
it's like when you're twelve, you don't pick bad boys.
You pick like it's like, oh he's nice, or like
he said something nice to me.

Speaker 3 (01:12:42):
Or he has freckles or some stupid.

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
Some dumb shit, or he's just in the living room.
Sometimes it's that. But I love I mean to me
like my brother, Oh that's my favorite Valentine's story. And
I just sidebarred you so hard. Sorry, but that was beautiful.

Speaker 3 (01:12:56):
Okay, good, good, I love it. Let's get back. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
The Jacob alibi, so the ANA crime's like beetpoop op,
I'm machine and the old folks the Jacob's alibi or
quote unconfirmed and unsubstantiated. So anacrime is like hell, fucking
no ooh, you're lying, the fucking liars. We need anna
crime Ana crime when you were in your forties, you're

(01:13:20):
fucking lying. Also arrested is fucking Muriel Bowl, remember her,
the fucking little redhead, fifteen year old. She's arrested at
this point for complicity and murder and non report of
a crime. So they're like, you knew more than you
were saying at the time, and we're finally.

Speaker 3 (01:13:38):
Getting down to cases.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
However, so she goes on a hunger strike again for
a few days whatever, a month after they're arrested.

Speaker 3 (01:13:49):
Let's go back.

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
Remember, remember Jean Michel Lambert, the thirty whatever the fuck
year old investigator who had got taken off of the
case in July twenty seventeen, just few months ago. He's
sixty five years old. He's found dead in his apartment
from suicide. What a plastic bag over his head. By

(01:14:10):
nineteen eighty seven, he had been replaced by Maurice, as
we said, and Maurice wrote at the time in his
personal notebooks that Lambert had an intellectual disorder, and he said,
I am in the midst of a miscarriage of justice
and all its horror about the accusations against Gregory's mother.

(01:14:32):
In his suicide note Lambert proclaims his certainty about the
innocence of Bernard, but he says he no longer has
the strength to fight. So at this point he still
thinks that I don't know if the mother is responsible
or whatever, whatever, who whatever, He thinks that Bernard is
not not guilty.

Speaker 1 (01:14:54):
He can't let go of his own first instinctule theory.

Speaker 3 (01:14:58):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
Yeah, we also have learned several other letters have been
sent since the restart of the investigation in June. A
prosecutor has been threatened with death by the raven. What
the Raven's back letters are still being fucking written?

Speaker 3 (01:15:12):
Holy shit.

Speaker 2 (01:15:14):
By twenty fourteen, nearly three thousand press articles, about fifty
you know, papers, a TV movie, and fifteen books have
been made about this case. And it's still ongoing. And
so we will update you when we find out that
God is the case of Petite, the Affair of the

(01:15:35):
Petit Gregory, the case of Little Gregory.

Speaker 3 (01:15:38):
That is so heavy. How have we never heard of that?
I've never heard any of that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
I must have seen it late night in one of
those listy things that you've never heard of, and saw
this photo of the sweet little boy that this he's
so French and cute and sweet, messy little hair and horrible.

Speaker 3 (01:15:58):
It's just awful.

Speaker 1 (01:15:59):
Well, and also just that it sounds like things are
so bad, so entrenched, that people have just went insane,
like they were surrounded by their family and their competition
and their small town bullshit.

Speaker 3 (01:16:11):
Well, it's like you look at this story and you're like,
how could this have happened?

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
And then this happened and it's so insane, and you're like, well,
the same thing happened with Jean Benet, And I'm still
fucking casting aspersions and being like it was the brother,
of course, it was this, or it was that, And
then the mom dies of cancer, and I'm still like,
maybe she had something to do with it, or her letter.
The letter looked like her handwriting, and we're doing the
exact same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:16:31):
Because you want some fucking clarity. You just want someone
to step forward and go, yes, all this other shit
has happened. It's the same with Jack the Ripper, but
you just want someone to come and go, we finally
have the one. Who here's the answer, the answer clean clear,
you know, not involving seventeen relatives or whatever, just like
who fucking whose plan was this?

Speaker 3 (01:16:52):
And who did it?

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
Well? I think and fucking French people, please let me
know what everyone thinks, because I have no way of knowing.

Speaker 3 (01:16:57):
If everyone's like, no, what.

Speaker 2 (01:16:59):
Are you talking about? Everyone knew this person wasn't involved.
That I'm saying is guilty. I have no ida. You know,
I can't give my opinion because I can't fucking understand
any of it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:09):
Videos. I don't understand what's going off of it. Like
literally there's like five.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
Articles in English and like two videos that you can
put subtitles on. Yeah, but faster, but at speed of
a hundred of asking. They're all like, I don't understand
any of it, but I want to know.

Speaker 3 (01:17:34):
I know so well.

Speaker 1 (01:17:35):
That would be amazing if people actually have the like
insider scoop of.

Speaker 3 (01:17:39):
Here's what we think.

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
Yeah, I think what everyone thinks is that that this
great aunt and uncle. The great aunt especially is like
the tvous fucking matriarch of the family who planned the
whole thing, including Alibis and Bernard.

Speaker 3 (01:17:53):
Did it fuck but your own family?

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
It's just dark, I mean yeah, I think it's just
like this anger jealousy situation. Oh you ending this was
showing me those bowling socks again because everything is sad
and awful and it's the only light we have in
our lives.

Speaker 3 (01:18:13):
What if I hold up.

Speaker 1 (01:18:14):
A bowling sock every time things go so so dark
into the human existence of.

Speaker 3 (01:18:19):
That's all I want is a bowling sock.

Speaker 1 (01:18:21):
Even look at it, Steve On, like a is a
bowling songet Stephen was really bent over. He's really bent
over just now. Horror feeling those French feelings and.

Speaker 3 (01:18:30):
We just have to remember these bowling songs. French feelings
are stronger than regular feelings. Oh God, damn, that's awful.

Speaker 2 (01:18:38):
I know.

Speaker 1 (01:18:43):
Okay, we're back. Are there updates for this story?

Speaker 3 (01:18:46):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
So. In twenty seventeen, charges filed against Jacqueline and Marcel
Jacob and Muriel Bowl were dropped within a year due
to legal technicalities. In June of twenty seventeen, Muriel's cousin
Patrick Favor told police that in night Time eighty four,
her family had physically abused Mauriel to get her to
recant her testimony against Bernard. Mariel has denied this and

(01:19:08):
accused Patrick of lying. In twenty eighteen, she published Breaking
the Silence, a book detailing her involvement in the case.
In it, she maintains her innocence and doubles down that
the police coerced her into implicating Bernard.

Speaker 3 (01:19:21):
In January twenty.

Speaker 2 (01:19:22):
Twenty, a French appeals court declared Mariel's nineteen eighty four
detention by police to be unconstitutional, and because of this statements,
Mariel had made while in custody had to be removed
from the case file. Statements she made while not in custody, however,
like her initial allegations against Bernard, remain in it. In
April twenty twenty, Monique Villeman, Gregory's grandmother, died from COVID nineteen.

Speaker 3 (01:19:43):
She was eighty eight.

Speaker 2 (01:19:45):
During the twenty seventeen investigation, investigators alleged that Monique was
the author of the threatening letter sent to Judge Maurice
Simon in nineteen ninety.

Speaker 3 (01:19:54):
In October twenty.

Speaker 2 (01:19:54):
Twenty five, Jacqueline, under mounting police suspicion that she too
authored some of the anonymous letters, was formally indicted on
related conspiracy charges, and as of the latest reporting, a
French appeals court is expected to decide this month July
twenty twenty six, whether these charges should be dismissed over
statute limitations, concerns and Among the documentaries on this case

(01:20:16):
are twenty eighteen's The Curse of the Volange, which is French,
and a twenty nineteen documentary Who Killed Little Gregory from Netflix,
and a dramatization of the case aired as a six
episode French mini series in twenty twenty one. Entitled a
fair Francis or a French case. All right, let's get
into recommendations corner.

Speaker 3 (01:20:37):
That's new. That is new.

Speaker 1 (01:20:38):
We were trying to change it up a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:20:46):
Okay, so we're going to end this differently right now, Right,
you and I were talking about how I just don't
want to keep fucking we end the episode with things
that makes us happy, and I'm just going to keep
saying my cats or that my back doesn't hurt, and
I'm fucking sick of myself. Right, So like we're gonna
save this for like what were we gonna either read
a thing or well.

Speaker 3 (01:21:06):
I brought a thing. I have a thing.

Speaker 2 (01:21:07):
Okay, great, I tried to actually do something great and
I have a recommendation that made that makes me really happy.
So like, after this episode, go watch this thing I'm
going to tell you about because this is the worst
so great.

Speaker 3 (01:21:18):
So this is all new. We're getting it a shot.

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):
It's basically we take the beginning and we're putting it
at the end. Yeah, because we decided we front loaded.
We frontload everything with all everything we love and are
excited about, and then we drain ourselves with horror.

Speaker 3 (01:21:30):
And then it's like what do you like? Well, and
then we're staring at each other going, what why haven't
you gone to the movies? Don't you guys understand?

Speaker 2 (01:21:36):
I don't know that half the time at the end,
when we have to say a thing we're happy about,
we have to make Steven cut out ten minutes of
us going I don't know, suit Ka, I don't know
because it's just so depressing.

Speaker 3 (01:21:49):
It's depressing.

Speaker 1 (01:21:50):
But also I think that we are afraid to overlea plan.
We just want to have this be it the most
natural conversation possible. I don't like the planning planny of life.
Anytime I come with something in my pocket, it feels
fake and clunky. Yeah, so I always think, like, when
we get there, something's gonna pop into my head that
makes you.

Speaker 3 (01:22:09):
Know what I love.

Speaker 2 (01:22:10):
And then but then you're like I love Hash Browns.
You're like, I just talked about a dead kid. It
feels terrible.

Speaker 3 (01:22:15):
It's not enough. It's never enough. No.

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):
This is why Elvis meo is at the end of
every episode is because when we did an episode once
and we were like, how do we end this? I
was like, oh shit, let's do like, let's have Elvis
meal yes.

Speaker 3 (01:22:29):
Let's just start talking about something else entirely. Let's have something.

Speaker 2 (01:22:32):
Okay, So that's what we're gonna do. Mine is if
you want me to go first. Sure, it's not that great,
do it. It's just a good thing that I like.
That's great.

Speaker 3 (01:22:38):
Same with mine and Fluffy. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:22:40):
There's this Netflix show movie. It's a Netflix movie. It's
a horror comedy about vampire roommates called What We Do
in the Shadow?

Speaker 3 (01:22:52):
Yes, girl, do you know it? Yes? Oh it's the greatest.
It is so good. I have had the hardest time
not talking to you about it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:01):
It's Jamaine from fucking Flight of the Concord Jamane Clement
and is it taiky wa tiki?

Speaker 1 (01:23:07):
I don't know how to pronounce that guy's name. I
panic when I see it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:10):
Even look is stealing in You're hired again at a
lower rate, at a lower rate. It is so perfect amazing.
It's basically just like, oh my, it's perfection. Reese Darby
has a hilarious where were Wolves not swear Wolves?

Speaker 3 (01:23:32):
It's just so good. I want to cry, Rees Darby.

Speaker 1 (01:23:35):
I actually one day was sitting staring at my TV
like I cannot look at one more true crime anything
like I really hit a wall.

Speaker 3 (01:23:42):
And then I went.

Speaker 1 (01:23:44):
Randomly my DVR recorded Flight of the Concords, which is
almost never rerun, and.

Speaker 2 (01:23:50):
Like, all you need to do is binge watch Flight
of the Concords and you'll be happy.

Speaker 1 (01:23:53):
I went straight to iTunes and bought both seasons or
four seasons, whatever it is, because I was like, oh,
wait a second, I'm going to watch this over and
over for the rest of my life.

Speaker 3 (01:24:02):
And be happy. The best show ever. I'm the hip hopopotamus.
Rhymes are bottomless and then nothing. It's the best. There's
nothing better, there's nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:24:11):
Maybe he did maybe he did what he maybe did,
maybe did what he maybe did he maybe.

Speaker 3 (01:24:18):
Did, maybe did.

Speaker 1 (01:24:18):
Also those posters behind Reestarby in the New Zealand office
and Ambassadors off of the River there are the best.

Speaker 2 (01:24:26):
It's perfection. It's movie in the shadows. Is A is
A is an extension of that? Yes, and I think
they're going to bring it to this place we call
America and remake it here. Yes, but it's going to
be Jemaine and Taika, who's so cute. The other thing
is I want to live in there because they're all hot.

(01:24:46):
They're so hot all the vampires except for the really
old one.

Speaker 3 (01:24:50):
Please go watch it. It's the best show you've a
movie you've ever seen in your fucking life.

Speaker 1 (01:24:55):
Yeah, if you haven't, it's so's goddamned delakay.

Speaker 3 (01:24:58):
So that made me really fucking have amazing over and over.

Speaker 1 (01:25:01):
I told you at the time I got to meet
the Flight of the Concords I opened now that when
I very first started stand up again after I hadn't
done it for five years, one of my very first
sets was opening for the Flight of the Concords in Denver.

Speaker 3 (01:25:14):
While they were like in the in their like the
shit the it was the height. I mean the show
was still on. Yeah. I think it was like maybe
their last night. They were like touring a ship. I
ate it in a way, or that we're doing music?
What were you doing music? No, no, no.

Speaker 1 (01:25:29):
I was trying to put a comedy set back together
and one of the main problems was that the microphone
was the mic cord was twisted around the mic stand
probably one hundred and fifty times, Like there was no
way I was getting the mic off the mic stand.
So I had to stand there like working Stephen Wright
and deliver not set up punch jokes like conversational shit.

Speaker 3 (01:25:52):
It was awful. I got a terrible review.

Speaker 1 (01:25:56):
In one of their like local weekly papers, where they said,
it's just it should have been Kristen Schahl because she's
on the show and she's a Denver.

Speaker 2 (01:26:05):
It's like local. Yeah, it was a horror show, but
all that aside horrible Kristin shall love you. That's horrible.

Speaker 1 (01:26:13):
Look, I did it because I wanted to be around
those guys and meet them.

Speaker 3 (01:26:17):
Oh, there's a reason why you shouldn't have done it.
But except for that, I didn't have an act.

Speaker 1 (01:26:22):
But they were so lovely and Jamaine Clement, like, in
my opinion, we don't have to go on and on
about this, and we certainly don't have to debate it.

Speaker 3 (01:26:33):
But Jamaine's hotter than what you're say.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
I think Brett mackenzie is the hottest. Technically, yes, but
then but we like a big guy.

Speaker 3 (01:26:41):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:26:41):
Also, when Jamaine Clement walks towards you to say hello,
thank you for opening the show for us, a wind
kicks up indoors and his hair blue back. There was
a thing that happened where I was standing there, like,
what in the living fuck is coming toward me right now.

Speaker 3 (01:26:59):
I was, he's a vampire.

Speaker 2 (01:27:01):
Also like he's love seen his David Bowie impressions. Yes,
you'll just never there's nobody ever. It's listen, Vince doesn't
listen to this podcast. Look and listen. My husband is
ellis in this podcast. So it's fine, so let her fly.
And there was Books and I were watching it together
and I kept want to go. I kept almost saying
because the guy that they turned into.

Speaker 1 (01:27:23):
I kept yes, that's like amazing, They're so hot.

Speaker 3 (01:27:26):
Yeah, I couldn't do that. It's weird too.

Speaker 1 (01:27:28):
It's weird as American girls, I think, to see hot
guys that are acting like sweet and innocent. It's such
a strange, not of my era anyway.

Speaker 3 (01:27:36):
Combination.

Speaker 2 (01:27:37):
And then they had like I'm just gonna keep talking
about they had like they had special effects that it
was this low budget movie and then these insane special
vampire effects.

Speaker 3 (01:27:48):
Yes, I'm going to watch it tonighter. They just did
it perfectly.

Speaker 1 (01:27:51):
It was like a realistic docu series almost, but I
know it's so perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:27:56):
It's called I wrote down The People Who Eat Darkness.
That's not it.

Speaker 2 (01:28:00):
That is actually a really good book about a Japanese
serial killer go listen to that.

Speaker 3 (01:28:04):
But it's actually called what We Do in.

Speaker 1 (01:28:05):
The Shadows, that's right, A different thing, yes, a bit similar. Okay,
well my thing is I love it now, that's my
thing too. That's that's great. I'm support I see lotion
in your hands. Well, because we were given oh yeah,
when we went to I believe this was in either
Atlanta or Nashville. So this was a couple of trips ago.
So I'm sorry that I don't as I always say.

(01:28:27):
Someone pointed out to me on Twitter that I'm always like, sorry,
I don't remember your name. Sorry, I don't whatever it was, Kim,
But I'm trying to look on here because I bet
you it'll tell me.

Speaker 3 (01:28:35):
Nashville, Tennessee. Great.

Speaker 1 (01:28:37):
We were given a little gift bag from some people
and I lost to fucking car.

Speaker 3 (01:28:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:43):
But it's from a company called Love Heels Thistle Farm.

Speaker 3 (01:28:46):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:47):
And so this is a company that's in Nashville, Tennessee
where they make hand lotions and soaps and all this stuff.
It's I think it's a lot of lip bomb lip
We got lip bomb handlows. This amazing, Like I can't
stop using it, body butter, could.

Speaker 2 (01:29:05):
It Everyone listen, because there's there's a thing and you
and I started crying when you read that, like literally
crying in the Greener room when we saw this.

Speaker 1 (01:29:11):
All of the products from Love Heels, the Soul Farms
are made by women survivors. So these are women who
These are women who get these jobs because they have
been either they just get out of jail or they
were they are how to.

Speaker 2 (01:29:28):
Leave their homes because they are domestic violence issues. So
they're going to live at this place and they get
this career and.

Speaker 1 (01:29:34):
They get a job, and they get and they make
these amazing beautiful products.

Speaker 3 (01:29:39):
My hands are always dry there.

Speaker 1 (01:29:41):
I have a ritual before every show, I put on
hand lotion, and if I don't do it, I get
I get a little bit weirded out.

Speaker 3 (01:29:47):
Oh every once in a while.

Speaker 2 (01:29:48):
And a mint in your mouth, A mint in my mouth,
A mint in the mouth, and a lunch and on
your handlam hand lotion.

Speaker 3 (01:29:53):
This is my new hand lotion.

Speaker 1 (01:29:55):
It's the best because it's not greasy and it and
it's it's curing all of my super I cutical it's amazing.
So it's actually an amazing product that like smells good
and really really works and Also, when you buy it,
you're supporting these people who are trying to get out
of a bad situation.

Speaker 2 (01:30:12):
You don't just want to go Yeah, like they're Yeah,
they feel like they have a purpose.

Speaker 1 (01:30:17):
Yeah, that's beautiful, and it's they're making They're making a
product that could be in fucking Sephora.

Speaker 2 (01:30:23):
I like, I like this so much better than the
fact that Mimi, who's sitting right here, truly does make
me happy. But I don't need to repeat that every
fucking episode.

Speaker 3 (01:30:32):
Look, sometimes it's has that's hard. I love that. Okay,
let's do that from now on. That's a good one. Well.

Speaker 1 (01:30:38):
Also, we get so many and you guys, we talk
when we meet you and you get into us, we
talk to you about it. But we are inundated with amazing,
beautiful gifts, incredible, thoughtful, hilarious.

Speaker 3 (01:30:51):
Brilliant, creative, artistic. It's so fun and delicious.

Speaker 2 (01:30:55):
It's hard to We're all traveling, so the we're shoving
stuff in bag.

Speaker 3 (01:31:00):
Like I looked around my house.

Speaker 1 (01:31:02):
Because I had actually the card that that described in detailed.

Speaker 3 (01:31:05):
About thistle farms.

Speaker 1 (01:31:07):
Yeah, I'm just a sloppy mess. So I'm like I
finally grabbed up this thing where I'm like, well, at
least this is in my person.

Speaker 3 (01:31:13):
I have this information.

Speaker 2 (01:31:14):
We're so lucky. People have been so kind to us,
and we're so fucking lucky. Yeah, thank you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:31:19):
Yeah, and so be kind to these people. We will post.

Speaker 1 (01:31:23):
I will find that thing, and then we'll have Stephen
post the Thistle Farms because it truly, aside from anything else,
it's a great product.

Speaker 3 (01:31:30):
We should have a Okay, we'll talk about it later.
Make some plans all the show. We should make some plants.
I love that. This is so much better.

Speaker 2 (01:31:38):
Yeah, okay, great, Yeah, yeah, it just takes five minutes
of thinking.

Speaker 3 (01:31:42):
That's all we need to do. It's so exhausting. We're
going to get there someday.

Speaker 2 (01:31:47):
We should.

Speaker 3 (01:31:47):
We should make a podcast about it. We should.

Speaker 2 (01:31:52):
We should hire a team of secretaries. No offense, Stephen.

Speaker 3 (01:32:03):
And we're back.

Speaker 1 (01:32:04):
Okay, So renaming this episode. It was originally titled King
of Police, a great name in and of itself, but
if we were renaming it today, what would we call it?

Speaker 2 (01:32:15):
Onslaught of Yaris, I mean love and Ryan mcbuff.

Speaker 3 (01:32:20):
We gotta do Ryan.

Speaker 1 (01:32:21):
McBryan mcbuff is so good. It's so hilarious. But then
so does nobody put Jesus in the corner.

Speaker 3 (01:32:29):
So good French feelings are stronger, of course.

Speaker 1 (01:32:32):
That's purpose.

Speaker 3 (01:32:33):
Were good. Okay, that was this week's episode of rewind.
We're going to say goodbye from the pod loft in
twenty eighteen.

Speaker 2 (01:32:42):
But thank you all for listening. Yes, you guys are
fucking angels. Thanks for being outfield in the endfield, and
we appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:32:52):
You guys are like ghost baseball players in a cornfield.

Speaker 3 (01:32:55):
We built it. We look outside and you can. Georgia
write us. She said, we built it. She pushed your
boobs together.

Speaker 4 (01:33:04):
We built here.

Speaker 2 (01:33:05):
I love grabbing my tts. Thank you, guys, Stay sexy
and don't get murdered.

Speaker 3 (01:33:11):
Good Bye, Elvis Lore Quickie

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Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 108: King of Police

Episode Transcript

Hosts And Creators

Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

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