April 7, 2026 • 48 mins
Bozoma Saint John is a glass-ceiling-shattering force of nature — the marketing powerhouse behind the world’s biggest brands, and now a breakout star of The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills who is rewriting what it means to be seen on reality TV.
In this powerful conversation with hosts Martin Luther King III, Arndrea Waters King, Marc Kielburger, and Craig Kielburger, Boz is joined by her plus one — her mother, Mama Aba, a two-time cancer survivor and the woman who gave her the foundation to walk into any room and refuse to be anything less than herself. Together, they explore how confidence, vulnerability, and a mother's unshakeable pride can shape a life of extraordinary impact.
They reveal how:
- True confidence isn't arrogance; it's having the knowledge of your own excellence
- Grief can teach you urgency, and urgency is how you truly start living
- Vulnerability isn't weakness
- Showing up unapologetically changes the stories the world gets to tell
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What I had to then learn was to be okay
with other people feeling uncomfortable and with other people questioning
why I'm so confident.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Bozam a Saint John has shattered glass ceilings as one
of the most powerful marketing executives of her generation, leading
brands at Pepsi, Apple, Endeavor, and Netflix, and named the
number one most influential CMO in the world by force.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
And walked into that board. What I told them first
was that my widow of three months, I am scared
the past is going to pull me under. I believe
that that day I didn't just win over employees, I
won an army.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Now she's forging a new chapter, finding a second chance
at love and shattering stereotypes on reality TV.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Now why would you do that? Let's change this narrative
that women of this age don't know how to do
anything else but fight with each other and have conflict
in ways that are silly and petty.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
And she's brought along the woman who taught her to
never shrink her mother.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
When I walk into rooms and people wonder why it
is that I don't tower, or or how it is
that I'm able to speak so strongly.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Join hosts Martin Luther King the Third, Andrea Waters, King,
Mark Kilberger and Craig Kilberger for a masterclass in confidence,
vulnerability and what it means to walk into any room
and refuse to be anyone but yourself.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
So, what is the biggest lie that people believe about
success that often keeps them from becoming their greatest badass?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I often tell people that.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Welcome to my Legacy. Today's guest is bose them as
Saint John, a woman who has redefined what it means
to be a marketing executive, a CEO, a mother, a
reality show star, TV host, and a force of nature.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Bows.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
We are so thrilled to have you here, and as
always on My Legacy, our guest brings along someone who
has played an incredibly meaningful role in their lives. Bows,
would you do us the honor of introducing us to
your plus one?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Oh? Well, thank you so much for having me. It's
really quite an honor to be in this conversation. Even
before we've begun, I'm excited, but I am even more
excited because it's rare when I get an opportunity to
have these type of conversations with my plus one. My
plus one is my mother, who is the matriarch of
(02:23):
our family, the one who raised four incredible daughters, if
I do say so myself, but has had a lifetime
of entrepreneurship and family creating, family raising, and just a
real sense of self. You know, people often ask me
where I get my confidence from, and I would say
(02:45):
that it is almost entirely hers, you know, in the
way that she has walked through the world and has
raised children in a country that is not hers, but
has raised us with the belief that we below anywhere
in the world. And so when I walk into rooms
and people wonder why it is that I don't cower,
(03:07):
or how it is that I'm able to speak so strongly,
is because I remember in seventh grade when my mom would,
you know, nudge me and say speak louder, you know,
use your full voice. And also never let us forget
our Ghanian heritage. So my plus one is a is
a bid one.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Beautiful, amazing Mama Abba. You were born in Liberia to
Ghanaian parents, and when Bozma was twelve years old, you
finally settled in the United States. Can you share a
story of young Bosma that captured who she was?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Well?
Speaker 6 (03:43):
When we came Bosma. Of course, she was born here,
and we left and came back, left and came back again.
And so when we eventually came, she was twelve. She
was good in Ghana anyway, so she was going to
do well wherever you know, she was at, and so
(04:04):
it didn't take care that long. Of course, we moved
into Colorado Springs, which was predominantly white Caucasian families, and
we were very minority, especially coming from Africa, where the
only four Ghanian family that was there. So you know,
(04:26):
she she did to me, she she did very.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Very well.
Speaker 6 (04:29):
But also I was there to support, you know, in
any way that each one of them, and also with
her being the oldest, of course, she took up you know,
the responsibility of her doing well so that her sisters
would also follow her full steps. So she's always been
a leader, she's always had a voice, she's always set
(04:50):
her opinion, and she's always done well. So I knew
she had some good stuff ahead of her.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
So it's so interesting. We both are the oldest of
four girls, so I kind of breaking through for everybody
that's that's coming after after you and the family and Bozma.
You've talked about growing up as the child of immigrants,
(05:17):
and how the kids made you feel othered by making
fun of your hair, your your face, your skin. Can
you talk a little bit about that struggle and how
you built confidence despite that.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I think we can all identify because remember when you
were twelve and how you felt. None of us wanted
to be different from our classmates or our friends. I
think I speak for many people when you say you
when you were twelve, you were a little awkward, and
so for me that was very much the same. I
(05:51):
didn't want to be different from my classmates. I wanted,
you know, to identify with them their still, their skin color,
their hair texture, the way that what they ate at home,
and all of those things. But my parents were very
proudly gone in. I had finally made it into the
(06:14):
cool girls group, you know, that infamous group of girls
who are the coolest in the school, and they're the
ones who everybody listens to and dresses like and wants
to sit next to at lunchtime. And they had finally
decided that I was worthy of being one of their number.
And when I was invited to one of their homes
(06:37):
with the group, I was very impressed by you know,
the array of snacks and drinks and you know TV
shows and the music we were listening to. I mean,
I was fascinated by all of it. I loved it.
And so then they became my turn to host them
at my house. And so I went to my mother
and I told her the things that they had had
(06:59):
it there homes. You have the pizza and the Cheetos
and the you know, sodas and every manner of snack
leg Americana classic that I could tell her. And I
said I wanted those things, yes, so they would feel
comfortable when they came to our home. And she turned
(07:20):
to me, you know, very sternly, lovingly, but sternly, and said, no,
they're not going to have that. When they come to
our house. They will eat the food we eat. And
mind you, I was already self conscious, and so I thought, gosh,
you know, they're gonna come over here and they're not
going to know the names of these foods. They've never
(07:40):
eaten this before, and now I'm gonna feel even more othered,
you know, when I have just broken in to being accepted,
and she had made some plaisson you know fish which
has you know, some tomatoes and onions and all manner
of seasonings on it, and I saw their little cheeks
(08:01):
get inflamed, okay, because it was pepper on it. I
was thinking, this is gonna be terrible. However, I can
confirm that my one of my best friends from that
time summer, who sounds exactly as her name describes, you know,
blonde with the green eyes and the whole thing, is
(08:23):
still one of my closest and dearest friends. Is She
came to visit at the end of last year and
she still asked for my mom's contomering as soon as
she walked in the door. Wow. And so while feeling
othered could have been something that made me feel less
than and certainly as a twelve year old, I didn't
(08:45):
have the information to know any better about not feeling
badly about that. But my mother's resilience, her steadiness, her steelness,
her own pride, you know, and where we came from
gave me something that I could not have articulated then.
(09:06):
But it is why when I'm in a boardroom and
I'm making decisions that are influenced and you know, impacted
by where I come from or my blackness, you know
that I don't cower because I know that my contribution
(09:27):
is as important as anybody else's.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Well, that was such a powerful moment. I want to
have us back the mic drop.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
No question.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
I love hearing that story because we get to meet
you again, like the world knows you as this incredible
icon in television and marketing. But the reason why shamelessly
I love this podcast is because we get to meet
the hero behind the hero, and I love what that
story tells about this incredible woman. You're plus one who
shaped who you are, and so you know, I'm going
(09:59):
back to you. Bosma has talked about how you raised
four daughters with the expectation that excellence is a baseline,
but she also wrote that you taught them about forgiveness.
How did you teach your daughters to be focused on
excellence with help being too hard on themselves?
Speaker 6 (10:15):
They were raising their family in a Christian home, so
as as Christians, you know, the basic thing is forgiveness.
That you forgive you love, and so that has always
been you know something that I've always modeled even now
(10:36):
that if you don't forgive to me, if you don't forgive,
you are holding yourself hostage to you know, whatever feelings
you have towards the other person, whereas when you forgive,
you become free, you know, to do what you need
to do for yourself.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
Your daughter also had to walk in these boardrooms right where,
and bows know that you said earlier in your career
that you had to learn to take credit for your
work without apology. And that's something that so many women
struggle with. And was there a specific moment when you
had to decide am I going to shrink or am
(11:16):
I going to speak up?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Hmmm? Oh gosh. There were so many moments along the
way where I have felt the tension, you know, between
not wanting to appear arrogant. Yeah, because you can be
named arrogant when you take a you know, credit for
the work that you do. Because a lot of times
(11:41):
in corporate spaces you're taught to use we instead of I.
You know, we accomplished this, we made this, we concepted this,
we analyzed this, instead of I did this and I
analyzed that. And my opinion is yo, And so I
had to learn that lesson many times along the way.
(12:03):
And I think, just going back to the point that
Craig also made about excellence being the baseline, I think
that has actually been the thread, you know, that allowed
me to take credit for my own work. And so
as I developed in my career, the tension that I
was feeling wasn't born for me. It was born externally,
(12:27):
you know, that tension of being afraid to take credit
for the work because I'd been raised to take credit
for my work. I've been raised to be proud of
my excellence, and so it made other people feel uncomfortable
when I appeared that way, you know, even at twenty two,
twenty three, you know, my first jobs, I think there
(12:48):
were a lot of people who wondered why the lowest
person on the totem pole felt that she was excellent,
you know, But I never questioned that. And so the
the tension that I felt was from other people's uncomfortability
with my own knowledge of my excellence. It wasn't my
own tension. And so what I had to then learn
(13:12):
was to be okay with other people feeling uncomfortable and
with other people questioning why I'm so confident and so
comfortable in my excellence. So I think that, you know,
the bar that was set at such an early age
for excellence just became a part of my DNA and Therefore,
(13:33):
it wasn't anything that was strange for me once I
walked into rooms where other people expected me to bow
my head and be quote unquote humble. I know exactly
what I'm good at, and I'm okay with my excellence.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
And are you passing that same thing onto your daughter?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Right? Is it such a complicated question because I think
for all of us as parents, while there are many
things said, I'm like, oh, my parents were so great
at X, Y and Z, ving, you become your own
type of parent, you know, and there's some things that
you do differently. I think the baseline for me is
(14:12):
the expectation of excellence for my daughter as well, you know,
in that she doesn't have to have the same type
of mastery of topics or interests that I do. You know,
even when she was little and I was you know,
she's now sixteen. But I remember, you know, when I
won an award from Billboard as the Executive of the
(14:36):
Year and she came to the award ceremony. It was
in this you know, huge room, hundreds of people in
the audience and lights and cameras, and the camera would
pan to her, you know, and she was probably six
or yeah, I think she was six years old. And
afterwards we were in you know, getting interviewed, and the
(14:57):
journalist asked her, oh, do you want to be like
your mom when you grow up? And I blenched at
the question, you know, because I was like, wait, hold on,
I don't want her to feel like she has to
live up to what I have done, you know, And
you know I won't. I won't even look at Martin
when I when I say that, yeah, Mark, expectation is high,
(15:22):
you know. And so I do raise her with the
expectation of excellence, but not at comparison to myself.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
There is this powerful quote. I wrote it down. I
just want to let all of our listeners and viewers
sit in it for a second. Other people were uncomfortable
with the fact that I had the knowledge of my excellence.
It's true people can be intimidated by that. To have
the knowledge of who you are, the fact that your
mom raised you and your parents raised you to have
that knowledge is just deeply powerful. And I love that
(15:59):
you're modeling that for others. In fact, for all of
our listeners and viewers who aren't a where a Harvard
Business school published a case study a but your career
called leading with authenticity and urgency and then I love this.
You taught a program at Harvard called the Anatomy of
a Badass Like what a great name? Like just putting
that out there, and I feel like people hear you,
(16:21):
and they hear people who as a successful you and
a lot of our listeners of course to know the
young aspire, but there's that voice, a voice that kind
of holds them back a little bit. So what is
the biggest lie that people believe about success that often
keeps them from becoming their greatest badass self?
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yes? Oh well, Craig. First, first of all, let me
tell you that there was quite a conversation at Harvard
when I submitted that. I imagine, yeah, it was. It was.
It was real tense there for a second. You know.
They were like, we don't know that we can actually
put this in the syllabus, and I said, why not?
What it was? The problem? You know, I often tell
(17:01):
people that regardless of where you are in your career,
however it is that you are behaving now, is how
you'll behave when you reach whatever pinnacle it is that
you're deciding to go to powerful that if you are
you know, trying to crowd please, and you are just
trying to get along, and you are you know, trying
(17:25):
to remain sort of under the radar just so that
you can quote unquote make it without causing too much
ruffled feathers. You will be that kind of leader when
you get to the top. You know, you're not going
to be the disruptive one. You're not going to be
the one that changes history and the world. You're not
(17:46):
going to be that person because you're not practiced at it.
And if you think it gets easier as you become
more successful, who I have some terrible news for you.
You know, it just becomes harder. The spotlight is bigger,
the expectations are so much much stricter, and so however
it is that you are behaving today is how you
(18:06):
will behave in success. And so I think it's actually
really important that people practice success. You know that if
you feel like you're not successful right now, will choose
a goal that feels closer to where you are right
now and achieve it and feel the success in it,
and then practice to get to the next level of success,
(18:30):
and then the next level of success, and then next
level of success. If the idea of success to you
is miles down the road. If it is a mountaintop,
that is, you know you've got to climb everest, then
you may not ever feel like you reach it, and
you'll just be plodding along trying to make something of
(18:50):
yourself without being practiced in success. So I think that's
really the misunderstanding that people have a success is that
it is not overnight, and you have to practice it
before you get there. Practice success.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
I like that Bose. You've you've had, you know, so
so much success, but you've also had incredible loss. I
want to talk a little bit about Peter, your first husband,
who passed away from cancer when your daughter was only
four years old. His obituary said, Peter and Bozeman's love
(19:27):
was one for the ages. What did those final months
with Peter teach you and how did it change the
way you live now?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
M M, my goodness it. You know, I've I've inherited
the spirit of spontaneity from my dad, who you know
oftentimes and my mother has better stories than I do
about this, but oftentimes we make decisions that felt like
(20:00):
he just woke up one day and decided to go
do this thing. And you're like, wait, that changes our
whole life, you know. And for a long time I
didn't like that inheritance, you know. I wanted to be
more thoughtful, more steadied. My mother makes decisions and she
(20:23):
plans and then executes. I want to be more like that.
But I found that often I'd wake up and then
it was like it was almost uncontrollable. It's like I
want to do this thing right now, and then I
go and do it without much thought, you know, sometimes
with some success and a lot of times to failure.
(20:44):
But it was during those last months with Peter that
I started to really understand what spontaneity means for long
term happiness and joy in your life. But I will
tell you that it was such a gift to be
able to know the end was coming and to be
urgent about life because we knew the end was coming.
(21:07):
Wouldn't it just be a miracle if all of us
understood that and therefore actually lived our lives like that?
That the urgency in my life is not built out
of a morbid and sad tale. It's built out of
this practice that Peter and I had in those final
(21:28):
months to do everything that we could. You know when
I was standing in the receiving line at his funeral,
lay out, sometimes in my arms, sometimes wrapped around my legs,
and a person after person after person, you know, shook
my hand or gave me a hug and said, I'm
(21:50):
so sorry. You know, he died so young. He died
four days before his forty fourth birthday. And while I
that he died too young, it also made me pause
about what living means, or what it looks like and
(22:11):
how we can do it, yo, that his death didn't
make me afraid of death. It made me more appreciative
of living. And what I learned in those months leading
up to his death and then the months following it
and the years following it has been that none of
us know when we're gonna go right, None of us do. However,
(22:32):
shouldn't we be inspired by that to actually live life
right now? Yo? That we say things like, oh, you know,
I'll get to that in six months. Well, Peter died
within six months of learning of his disease, So why
would you wait? Yo? And so what I have learned
in that time that taught me urgency in life, helped
(22:56):
me appreciate the spontaneity of my spirit is that regardless
of when it is that I go, I want people
to look at my life and be like, wow, that
girl lived. My God, she had a life. Whoo she
did some things, didn't she? You know? Because I may
not accomplish everything that I want to, because I believe
(23:20):
that I'll be that ninety six year old who still
has a list of things that she wants to do. However,
if I go sometime before then, I still want people
to look at my daughter, looked at the loved ones
I leave behind, and say, who that woman, what a
life she lived?
Speaker 5 (23:38):
Powerful Mama Alba as a mother, how did you help
your daughter through that heartbreaking loss?
Speaker 6 (23:48):
So I moved to New Jersey and then you know,
we both actually got sick around the same time, and
so I was very close by. And what I said,
and I still say, is that if I wasn't there,
what would I have done being so far away? But
it was so good to be really close by Jesse,
(24:11):
New Jersey, and.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
So I kept on.
Speaker 6 (24:13):
In fact, when he took his last breath, I was
there with Bosma and his parents and his sister Elua.
So I was able to be there, you know, just
just a stone through a way to be there the
whole time, so that that was very comforting, you know,
for me, and also to know that I really was
(24:35):
there to be able to hold her hands, to give
a hug, you know, whenever she needed it or so
that's that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I was close. I was very very close by.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
And you said that you were sick at the same
time as well. Yes, so, Bowls, you were dealing with
both your husband and your mom at the same time.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, my mom was diagnosed with her cancer first and
had started treatment, and then about three months later, Peter
was diagnosed with his cancer, and so I was running
between Memorials Slone Kettering, which is in New York, and
the hospital my mom was getting treated in in New Jersey,
(25:22):
while also holding down my full time job at PepsiCo
and also mothering my four year old daughter. And it
was a challenging time to say the least. Yes, I'm
sure you're looking at me and saying, how did you
even manage it? How did you do it? But there's
so many of us who are juggling responsibilities and grief
(25:45):
and oh the stress of it all. And I hope
that part of what people see when they look at
me now is a walking testimony the other so that
it is possible, it is absolutely possible to have all
of these things happen to you, to feel like a
victim in your life. Ye, Because let me tell you,
(26:09):
I'll be honest, there were many times when I looked
up to the heavens and I said, God, like, really, like,
why why does this have to be happening to me? Yeah? Yo?
But although God and I argued many times in that
I do live in such gratitude, you know, for the
(26:32):
experiences that have both been devastating and one those have
been uplifting, because I really do hope that my life
is a walking testimony the people will look at me
and say, oh, it's possible to still live a fulfilled life,
to still have a successful life, to still be happy
in it, even when you faced such hardship.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Might I say the answer to that is a strong affirmative.
And you know, it's interesting. We were with miss Sheila
Johnson last week. She's the first black well maybe not
the first, but black female billionaire. But her company is Salamander,
her hotels and her and she chose that because that
(27:21):
is the only animal that can walk through fire and survive.
And so what I am seeing with both of you
are two beautiful, bold salamanders. And now let's talk about
walking through fire. I'm gonna jump to the Real Housewives.
(27:43):
I don't know how to make competitorans, but I know
that you've talked about how meaningful it is to show
single black motherhood on Real Housewives franchise. Yes, what has
your daughter taught you?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Because she was four when Peter died. I was looking
at the years ahead with complete fear right and this
feeling overwhelmed, like, how am I going to do this
by myself. I didn't sign up to be a single parent.
I don't know how to do this. And at the
same time, my career was taking off like a rocket ship,
(28:22):
you know. I moved us from New York to Los
Angeles at that time. Peter had been dead about three
months four months when we moved to become the head
of marketing for Beats, which was of course created by
doctor dre and Jimmy Iving. Four months after I arrived
at Beats, we got acquired by Apple, and then I
(28:45):
became the head of marketing for iTunes and started to
build Apple Music. It was just a chaotic time you know,
while also dealing with the first year anniversaries of all
of the things, you know, the first without Peter, the
first Father's here, the first Mother's Day without Peter. You know,
it was like this hit after hit after hit while
(29:08):
trying to achieve. And there was one very poignant night where,
you know, she climbed into my bed. I was sitting
up stressed, couldn't sleep, and I looked over at her
and she was so soundly asleep, you know, and I
was so terrified, and I woke her up. You know,
(29:29):
this is like a big parenting fail, right, never wake
a sleeping child. But I woke her up, you know,
and I looked at her and it was like desperation
that I was just like, I was like, I don't
know what to do. So I don't know how to
raise you. I don't know how to do by myself.
I don't know why I said that to her, but
she just looked at me with her little sleepy eyes
(29:52):
and she just said okay, she said okay, you know,
and I think I tell that story because I didn't
know why I needed to do that, but her okay
was Oh. It was like a release. I felt like
(30:13):
I had been given permission to not know how to
do this, to not be perfect. And so in the
months following that, I mean when I tell you, it
was a big sigh of relief, like okay, okay, you
went to sleep. And so I changed from trying to
(30:33):
manage her in my life to managing with her in
my life.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
So I'm very curious, Like, you had this phenomenal career
in the c suite, what made you say yes to
a reality show?
Speaker 6 (30:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Well, you know. So here's the thing. When I was
in the corporate jobs, people were always you know, admiring
that I was one of one or one of few,
or you know, the first black woman to do this,
and the first, I mean it was it became a
little overwhelming because it was like, Okay, I get it,
I understand, you know enough. And while I don't mean
(31:12):
that to be flippant, because it wasn't easy to break
those glass ceilings and you know, be first in rooms,
I knew that when I was done with that corporate life,
I was done. You know, that I had achieved what
I needed to achieve. There's nothing left to prove to anybody.
And as I looked at the landscape of TV and film.
(31:36):
You know, I'm not one of those people that pretend
they don't watch TV. I love TV. I love storytelling.
You know, that is why I'm a marketer and why
I love to tell stories. I know how influential those
stories are. I know how they change politics, and how
they change society, and how they change your own self understanding.
You know, stories are so important, And as I looked around,
(31:59):
some of the most power stories that are told today
are in reality You know that we believe we're seeing unscripted, uh,
unscripted stories of people. You know, it's because when you
watch a film or you watch you know, scandal or something,
(32:19):
you know that somebody wrote it and it's not real.
But if you're looking at reality TV, you're looking at
people and saying, oh, okay, this is what this type
of person does. And when I looked at the landscape
and I was approached by NBCU and Bravo to join
the Housewives, I looked at that landscape and I said,
I don't see myself. You know, I don't see that.
(32:41):
I don't see the story of the corporate battie. I
don't I don't see the self made black woman you
know who, Yes, I love fashion and you don't say
love I love a good shop like the next month,
all right, But also the complexity of this life. You know.
(33:04):
It's like, yes, I've been successful in business, I have
made my own money, you know, And so where are
those women represented in that story, not just that you're
married into it, but that you made it, you know.
And again it's like no shade and no down to
anybody who's married into it, But where are we represented?
Speaker 3 (33:23):
You know?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
And then the all other complexity, which I think is
something that people don't give you enough credit to, is
that women who are in their forties and fifties are
such a unique time in life, you know, where it's
like you're dealing with the complexities of sometimes long relationships
that may be faltering, or you know, growing children who
(33:47):
are at injunctions in their life, inflection points, aging parents,
you know, and then you're dealing with your girlfriends. There's
a lot on on and so.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Ohhones don't and your daughter's hormones at the same.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Time, hormone everybody's home, every everyone was going off. But
I really did feel like, you know, a lot of
times in my career when people have said, oh, why
did you go do that job. Yeah, well, because I
was the only one who would go do it, you know.
And then after I was successful, people be like, oh,
of course that makes it. That have total sense, you know.
(34:27):
And so now it's like I joined Housewives and at
first people are like, man, why would you do that?
You want to go on TV and fight with women?
And I was like, why do I have to do that?
What do you mean? I don't have to do that,
you know, I can. I can represent myself, represent conflicts
resolution very well, you know, and tell the story of
women who are like me. And on top of that,
(34:48):
now that I've been successful at doing that, and I'm
in my second season and people are excited to see
me as a quote unquote breath of fresh air, I'm like, well,
of course we can so bring more, you know, let's see,
let's see more women like that, and let's change this
narrative that women of this age don't know how to
(35:11):
do anything else but fight with each other and have
conflict in ways that are silly and petty.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
For everything that you've done in this world and for
standing so boldly in your excellence and brilliance, but particularly
as a woman and as a black woman who are
Society teach us all too often to shrink and to
stay small, and so the fact the forging that path
(35:41):
of being bold and brilliant and unapologetic in that thank you, Scrolling.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Won't change your life, but subscribing just might tap that
button and stay connected to conversations.
Speaker 6 (35:53):
That kept.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Bose.
Speaker 5 (35:57):
You know, you've recently announced your engagement to k watched
the congratulations.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Thank you, Thank You.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
You've talked about dating as an alpha female and how
that comes with its own challenges. What were you looking
for in a partner and how did you know Keeley
was the one?
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Mmmm? Yeah, Well I haven't always you know, obviously had
the success I have, you know, in my in my
first marriage, I met Peter when I was twenty three.
We got married when I was twenty six, and so
I was just at the beginnings of my career. Now
I would argue that I've always been an alpha woman,
(36:39):
but I didn't yet have the the badges and the receipts,
and now I do, so I'm a little Yeah, there's
a big difference. It's a big difference when you feel
like you're alpha and then you can prove it, you know,
And I think there's a couple of challenges, you know,
for me in dating when you know, especially after Peter
(37:03):
died one. You know, I think for anyone who's a
widow or widower, you know that, you know, once your
partner goes, they become a saint in your eyes. You
know they're up here. You forget that they never picked
up their socks so that you yelled at them for
you know, any little thing that annoyed you, you know,
all of a sudden, now they is untouchable. Peter became
(37:23):
that for me. You know, all I remembered were the
good things, the things that he did that were just
woof above the cut, and so it became difficult for
a mortal man to live up to those expectations. Being
on top of that, I have a very impressionable daughter
(37:43):
who I don't want to, you know, see any relationship
with her mother that is not also of the highest caliber.
But those expectations and that kind of boundary made me
a very lonely woman, you know, and I think I
(38:05):
reached the point in my life where I just realized,
I was like, you know what, like I I don't
want to actually spend the rest of my life without
romantic love. You know, I have plenty of platonic love.
I have love of my mother, I have love of
my daughter, I have love of great friends. But I
also wanted romantic love. And I knew at the same
(38:26):
time that I couldn't also change my makeup, you know,
to be anything other than myself. And so I prayed
a lot about who God would bring into my life.
Who could celebrate me where I am and where I've been.
Who could encourage me to where I'm going, because oh,
(38:48):
I'm not even yet done. Who could contribute to not
just my life but my daughter's life. Who would pray
with me, you know? Who would love my parents the
way I I love my parents. Who would love my
culture the way I love my culture? And Kily Watson
came along, you know, and for many reasons I said yes,
(39:12):
But I will say that the main things were that one,
he loves my daughter very much, you know, calls my
mom mom, calls my dad dad. He became a Ganian
citizen mm hm. And I think you know, the part
about the career and being alpha, because that's usually where
(39:33):
you know you're described, is that he doesn't compete with me.
You know, he is very successful in his own lane,
but he encourages and he supports and he champions and
that perhaps is the biggest difference maker for me, is
a man who's willing to champion me and not compete
(39:55):
with me. Hm.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
Wow, Well may have was the moment that Kiley won you.
Speaker 6 (40:02):
Over when when he came to Ghana on his third date.
I met him for the first time, not here, but
in Ghana told me about him and she said he
was coming, and then he he came, So I knew
(40:25):
you were serious and he just adapted to everything around
him and uh yeah, So that that.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Was great early on that was third date.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Exactly, we had had two dates and he said, you know,
you want to go out again and I said, well,
I'm going to be in in Ghana, you know, for
about a month. And he was like, why can't the
date being Ghana? Well then come on then, and he did.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
I know that you've been open to Bowls about your
fertility struggles on the show and that you and Keighley
look into expanding your family, and that's such a deeply
personal thing to share. What made you decide to let
the camera into that part of your lives and what
do you hope that other women take from watching it?
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yes, well I will tell you that again. You know,
this goes back to what we were talking about before
about being practiced. You know, I've had a lot of
practice in the last fifteen years of being in the
corporate spotlight, you know, on sharing my personal you know,
because I think a lot of times what happens is
(41:37):
that leaders believe that they should have the wall up,
you know, so that they seem perfect. But that's not
what wins people to your side. You know. I think
many times people follow leaders because they have empathy for
the leader, you know, not just fear. And so I
have been very open for a long time about all
(41:59):
aspects of my life, and you know, I think sometimes
people will be like, oh, well, you shouldn't overshare, and
I'm like, but why.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
You know.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
What happens is that if people don't know what is
going on with you, then how can they help you.
And so many of us are afraid to look weak
because we need help. And perhaps I mean that's really
where the strength is, is the ability to ask for help.
And so even going back to when Peter died, you know,
and I walked into that boardroom of beats the very
(42:28):
first time, and it was overcrowded with you know, the
new members of my team and other hangers on who
want to see who this person was. I was coming
to take over, and what I told them first was that,
you know, I'm a widow of three months and I
am scared that the past is going to pull me under.
(42:49):
And so part of the reason I was there and
in that room and taking this big leap of faith
was to fight for something in the future that I
could hang onto that would pull me forward. And I
believe that that day I didn't just went over employees.
I won an army you know of people who would
go to battle for me because they knew that they
(43:11):
had to keep me uplifted in order for me to
keep going. And many of those people are still friends today,
you know, still people who call me to this day
to check up momy or to wish me happy birthday.
And so coming onto the housewives, I was not afraid
to share the very vulnerable, very personal things, because people
(43:33):
will judge you, people will talk about you. You know,
even in this fertility journey. You know, I've had the
critics who have said, ah, but you're too old, you know,
shouldn't you just sit down somewhere and like, ah, yeah,
if you only knew the number of people who have,
you know, slid into my dms and who've commented on posts,
(43:56):
who have said thank you so much for sharing. I'm
in the same position, or I'm you know, in my
early forties and I'm starting and I wasn't sure that
I could make it, but watching you tell it, you know,
and I'm given the good, the bad, and the ugly.
You know, I'm like, I'm bloated, I'm irritable. Okay, you
know you probably don't want to talk to me on
(44:18):
certain days. But I feel like the importance again of
storytelling is that we are honest in our human experience.
You know, They're so there are far many more people
who will identify with you if they know who you
are as a human. You know, and this also, you know,
hearkens back to when I was twelve and moved to
(44:39):
the US, is that, you know, we think that because
of our differences, we can't get along, you know, or
that we don't have anything to talk about. But the
most interesting thing is that we as human beings are
so curious about each other, and so the more that
we share. The more that you have people who are
interested in who you are, the more that they're interested
in who you are, the better to get to know you.
(45:00):
The better to get to know you, the better they
can advocate for you and love you. And so it
is a practice of being more human. So I'm not
afraid of my own vulnerability as a human because that's
the way that I connect to other people.
Speaker 5 (45:15):
Mama Abba, you turned seventy four in October, and you
want a mission to see all seven continents? Yes, as
a two time cancer survivor what do you want your
daughters to know about how to live a full life
at every age?
Speaker 6 (45:35):
Well, I think they see me, you know, do it,
and so I'm there for them. They encourage me. In fact,
one thing was much to ask me all the time
is that not only don't I look at but I
don't act like it either. So I don't know whether
it's a compliment or it's not, but I take it
as a compliment.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
And so I love to.
Speaker 6 (45:58):
Travel and I want to see other places, see other people.
To me, this is God's world and as much as
I can see, the better for me. So that's why
I want. I want to see those places and I
have the energy for it. So I'm going for it
(46:19):
and I'm ready to go to Antarctica. Whoever wants to
come with me too.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Bosma, thank you for this just deeply honest and personal
conversation and to some of the words that left with
me here. His death made me not afraid of dying,
but made me more appreciative of living. Life is a
walking testimony. And I want people to say, Wow, what
(46:46):
a life she lived. And I think all of us,
but every listener and viewer is in wow, what a
life she lived, and so blah blah blah. Thank you
for giving this extraordinary foundation of excellence and things and strength,
and you survive cancer twice and at seventy four you're
still showing your daughters what it means to live so fully.
(47:08):
And Bozma, thank you for this incredible example about resilience
and about what you choose to do. It's you know,
we often say that life is about resilience, but the
truth is, at times it is about breaking and about
what you choose to do after breaking, and to love
again and to teach all people to take up space.
(47:29):
And I love this to embrace their bad assness. No
matter what, however, might think, that is the most awesome title.
And so thank you both for your courage, your grace,
and as we say on this show, for living your
legacies every single day.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Thank you, thank you. This has really been such an honor.
I mean, I just I was so excited when the
opportunity presented itself, And as I said before, I don't
often get a chance to share this kind of space
with my mom and have her voice also heard, So
I am deeply thankful this is This is probably one
(48:07):
of the most heart filled conversations that I've had, and
I will treasure it. So thank you so much for
that gift. Thank Lily, appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you
for having me.
Speaker 6 (48:19):
I appreciate you.
Speaker 5 (48:21):
You're extraordinary too.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
New episodes drop every Tuesday. Don't forget to subscribe so
you never miss a moment.
What I had to then learn was to be okay
with other people feeling uncomfortable and with other people questioning
why I'm so confident.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Bozam a Saint John has shattered glass ceilings as one
of the most powerful marketing executives of her generation, leading
brands at Pepsi, Apple, Endeavor, and Netflix, and named the
number one most influential CMO in the world by force.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
And walked into that board. What I told them first
was that my widow of three months, I am scared
the past is going to pull me under. I believe
that that day I didn't just win over employees, I
won an army.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Now she's forging a new chapter, finding a second chance
at love and shattering stereotypes on reality TV.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Now why would you do that? Let's change this narrative
that women of this age don't know how to do
anything else but fight with each other and have conflict
in ways that are silly and petty.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
And she's brought along the woman who taught her to
never shrink her mother.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
When I walk into rooms and people wonder why it
is that I don't tower, or or how it is
that I'm able to speak so strongly.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Join hosts Martin Luther King the Third, Andrea Waters, King,
Mark Kilberger and Craig Kilberger for a masterclass in confidence,
vulnerability and what it means to walk into any room
and refuse to be anyone but yourself.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
So, what is the biggest lie that people believe about
success that often keeps them from becoming their greatest badass?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I often tell people that.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Welcome to my Legacy. Today's guest is bose them as
Saint John, a woman who has redefined what it means
to be a marketing executive, a CEO, a mother, a
reality show star, TV host, and a force of nature.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Bows.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
We are so thrilled to have you here, and as
always on My Legacy, our guest brings along someone who
has played an incredibly meaningful role in their lives. Bows,
would you do us the honor of introducing us to
your plus one?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Oh? Well, thank you so much for having me. It's
really quite an honor to be in this conversation. Even
before we've begun, I'm excited, but I am even more
excited because it's rare when I get an opportunity to
have these type of conversations with my plus one. My
plus one is my mother, who is the matriarch of
(02:23):
our family, the one who raised four incredible daughters, if
I do say so myself, but has had a lifetime
of entrepreneurship and family creating, family raising, and just a
real sense of self. You know, people often ask me
where I get my confidence from, and I would say
(02:45):
that it is almost entirely hers, you know, in the
way that she has walked through the world and has
raised children in a country that is not hers, but
has raised us with the belief that we below anywhere
in the world. And so when I walk into rooms
and people wonder why it is that I don't cower,
(03:07):
or how it is that I'm able to speak so strongly,
is because I remember in seventh grade when my mom would,
you know, nudge me and say speak louder, you know,
use your full voice. And also never let us forget
our Ghanian heritage. So my plus one is a is
a bid one.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Beautiful, amazing Mama Abba. You were born in Liberia to
Ghanaian parents, and when Bozma was twelve years old, you
finally settled in the United States. Can you share a
story of young Bosma that captured who she was?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Well?
Speaker 6 (03:43):
When we came Bosma. Of course, she was born here,
and we left and came back, left and came back again.
And so when we eventually came, she was twelve. She
was good in Ghana anyway, so she was going to
do well wherever you know, she was at, and so
(04:04):
it didn't take care that long. Of course, we moved
into Colorado Springs, which was predominantly white Caucasian families, and
we were very minority, especially coming from Africa, where the
only four Ghanian family that was there. So you know,
(04:26):
she she did to me, she she did very.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Very well.
Speaker 6 (04:29):
But also I was there to support, you know, in
any way that each one of them, and also with
her being the oldest, of course, she took up you know,
the responsibility of her doing well so that her sisters
would also follow her full steps. So she's always been
a leader, she's always had a voice, she's always set
(04:50):
her opinion, and she's always done well. So I knew
she had some good stuff ahead of her.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
So it's so interesting. We both are the oldest of
four girls, so I kind of breaking through for everybody
that's that's coming after after you and the family and Bozma.
You've talked about growing up as the child of immigrants,
(05:17):
and how the kids made you feel othered by making
fun of your hair, your your face, your skin. Can
you talk a little bit about that struggle and how
you built confidence despite that.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I think we can all identify because remember when you
were twelve and how you felt. None of us wanted
to be different from our classmates or our friends. I
think I speak for many people when you say you
when you were twelve, you were a little awkward, and
so for me that was very much the same. I
(05:51):
didn't want to be different from my classmates. I wanted,
you know, to identify with them their still, their skin color,
their hair texture, the way that what they ate at home,
and all of those things. But my parents were very
proudly gone in. I had finally made it into the
(06:14):
cool girls group, you know, that infamous group of girls
who are the coolest in the school, and they're the
ones who everybody listens to and dresses like and wants
to sit next to at lunchtime. And they had finally
decided that I was worthy of being one of their number.
And when I was invited to one of their homes
(06:37):
with the group, I was very impressed by you know,
the array of snacks and drinks and you know TV
shows and the music we were listening to. I mean,
I was fascinated by all of it. I loved it.
And so then they became my turn to host them
at my house. And so I went to my mother
and I told her the things that they had had
(06:59):
it there homes. You have the pizza and the Cheetos
and the you know, sodas and every manner of snack
leg Americana classic that I could tell her. And I
said I wanted those things, yes, so they would feel
comfortable when they came to our home. And she turned
(07:20):
to me, you know, very sternly, lovingly, but sternly, and said, no,
they're not going to have that. When they come to
our house. They will eat the food we eat. And
mind you, I was already self conscious, and so I thought, gosh,
you know, they're gonna come over here and they're not
going to know the names of these foods. They've never
(07:40):
eaten this before, and now I'm gonna feel even more othered,
you know, when I have just broken in to being accepted,
and she had made some plaisson you know fish which
has you know, some tomatoes and onions and all manner
of seasonings on it, and I saw their little cheeks
(08:01):
get inflamed, okay, because it was pepper on it. I
was thinking, this is gonna be terrible. However, I can
confirm that my one of my best friends from that
time summer, who sounds exactly as her name describes, you know,
blonde with the green eyes and the whole thing, is
(08:23):
still one of my closest and dearest friends. Is She
came to visit at the end of last year and
she still asked for my mom's contomering as soon as
she walked in the door. Wow. And so while feeling
othered could have been something that made me feel less
than and certainly as a twelve year old, I didn't
(08:45):
have the information to know any better about not feeling
badly about that. But my mother's resilience, her steadiness, her steelness,
her own pride, you know, and where we came from
gave me something that I could not have articulated then.
(09:06):
But it is why when I'm in a boardroom and
I'm making decisions that are influenced and you know, impacted
by where I come from or my blackness, you know
that I don't cower because I know that my contribution
(09:27):
is as important as anybody else's.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Well, that was such a powerful moment. I want to
have us back the mic drop.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
No question.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
I love hearing that story because we get to meet
you again, like the world knows you as this incredible
icon in television and marketing. But the reason why shamelessly
I love this podcast is because we get to meet
the hero behind the hero, and I love what that
story tells about this incredible woman. You're plus one who
shaped who you are, and so you know, I'm going
(09:59):
back to you. Bosma has talked about how you raised
four daughters with the expectation that excellence is a baseline,
but she also wrote that you taught them about forgiveness.
How did you teach your daughters to be focused on
excellence with help being too hard on themselves?
Speaker 6 (10:15):
They were raising their family in a Christian home, so
as as Christians, you know, the basic thing is forgiveness.
That you forgive you love, and so that has always
been you know something that I've always modeled even now
(10:36):
that if you don't forgive to me, if you don't forgive,
you are holding yourself hostage to you know, whatever feelings
you have towards the other person, whereas when you forgive,
you become free, you know, to do what you need
to do for yourself.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
Your daughter also had to walk in these boardrooms right where,
and bows know that you said earlier in your career
that you had to learn to take credit for your
work without apology. And that's something that so many women
struggle with. And was there a specific moment when you
had to decide am I going to shrink or am
(11:16):
I going to speak up?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Hmmm? Oh gosh. There were so many moments along the
way where I have felt the tension, you know, between
not wanting to appear arrogant. Yeah, because you can be
named arrogant when you take a you know, credit for
the work that you do. Because a lot of times
(11:41):
in corporate spaces you're taught to use we instead of I.
You know, we accomplished this, we made this, we concepted this,
we analyzed this, instead of I did this and I
analyzed that. And my opinion is yo, And so I
had to learn that lesson many times along the way.
(12:03):
And I think, just going back to the point that
Craig also made about excellence being the baseline, I think
that has actually been the thread, you know, that allowed
me to take credit for my own work. And so
as I developed in my career, the tension that I
was feeling wasn't born for me. It was born externally,
(12:27):
you know, that tension of being afraid to take credit
for the work because I'd been raised to take credit
for my work. I've been raised to be proud of
my excellence, and so it made other people feel uncomfortable
when I appeared that way, you know, even at twenty two,
twenty three, you know, my first jobs, I think there
(12:48):
were a lot of people who wondered why the lowest
person on the totem pole felt that she was excellent,
you know, But I never questioned that. And so the
the tension that I felt was from other people's uncomfortability
with my own knowledge of my excellence. It wasn't my
own tension. And so what I had to then learn
(13:12):
was to be okay with other people feeling uncomfortable and
with other people questioning why I'm so confident and so
comfortable in my excellence. So I think that, you know,
the bar that was set at such an early age
for excellence just became a part of my DNA and Therefore,
(13:33):
it wasn't anything that was strange for me once I
walked into rooms where other people expected me to bow
my head and be quote unquote humble. I know exactly
what I'm good at, and I'm okay with my excellence.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
And are you passing that same thing onto your daughter?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Right? Is it such a complicated question because I think
for all of us as parents, while there are many
things said, I'm like, oh, my parents were so great
at X, Y and Z, ving, you become your own
type of parent, you know, and there's some things that
you do differently. I think the baseline for me is
(14:12):
the expectation of excellence for my daughter as well, you know,
in that she doesn't have to have the same type
of mastery of topics or interests that I do. You know,
even when she was little and I was you know,
she's now sixteen. But I remember, you know, when I
won an award from Billboard as the Executive of the
(14:36):
Year and she came to the award ceremony. It was
in this you know, huge room, hundreds of people in
the audience and lights and cameras, and the camera would
pan to her, you know, and she was probably six
or yeah, I think she was six years old. And
afterwards we were in you know, getting interviewed, and the
(14:57):
journalist asked her, oh, do you want to be like
your mom when you grow up? And I blenched at
the question, you know, because I was like, wait, hold on,
I don't want her to feel like she has to
live up to what I have done, you know, And
you know I won't. I won't even look at Martin
when I when I say that, yeah, Mark, expectation is high,
(15:22):
you know. And so I do raise her with the
expectation of excellence, but not at comparison to myself.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
There is this powerful quote. I wrote it down. I
just want to let all of our listeners and viewers
sit in it for a second. Other people were uncomfortable
with the fact that I had the knowledge of my excellence.
It's true people can be intimidated by that. To have
the knowledge of who you are, the fact that your
mom raised you and your parents raised you to have
that knowledge is just deeply powerful. And I love that
(15:59):
you're modeling that for others. In fact, for all of
our listeners and viewers who aren't a where a Harvard
Business school published a case study a but your career
called leading with authenticity and urgency and then I love this.
You taught a program at Harvard called the Anatomy of
a Badass Like what a great name? Like just putting
that out there, and I feel like people hear you,
(16:21):
and they hear people who as a successful you and
a lot of our listeners of course to know the
young aspire, but there's that voice, a voice that kind
of holds them back a little bit. So what is
the biggest lie that people believe about success that often
keeps them from becoming their greatest badass self?
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yes? Oh well, Craig. First, first of all, let me
tell you that there was quite a conversation at Harvard
when I submitted that. I imagine, yeah, it was. It was.
It was real tense there for a second. You know.
They were like, we don't know that we can actually
put this in the syllabus, and I said, why not?
What it was? The problem? You know, I often tell
(17:01):
people that regardless of where you are in your career,
however it is that you are behaving now, is how
you'll behave when you reach whatever pinnacle it is that
you're deciding to go to powerful that if you are
you know, trying to crowd please, and you are just
trying to get along, and you are you know, trying
(17:25):
to remain sort of under the radar just so that
you can quote unquote make it without causing too much
ruffled feathers. You will be that kind of leader when
you get to the top. You know, you're not going
to be the disruptive one. You're not going to be
the one that changes history and the world. You're not
(17:46):
going to be that person because you're not practiced at it.
And if you think it gets easier as you become
more successful, who I have some terrible news for you.
You know, it just becomes harder. The spotlight is bigger,
the expectations are so much much stricter, and so however
it is that you are behaving today is how you
(18:06):
will behave in success. And so I think it's actually
really important that people practice success. You know that if
you feel like you're not successful right now, will choose
a goal that feels closer to where you are right
now and achieve it and feel the success in it,
and then practice to get to the next level of success,
(18:30):
and then the next level of success, and then next
level of success. If the idea of success to you
is miles down the road. If it is a mountaintop,
that is, you know you've got to climb everest, then
you may not ever feel like you reach it, and
you'll just be plodding along trying to make something of
(18:50):
yourself without being practiced in success. So I think that's
really the misunderstanding that people have a success is that
it is not overnight, and you have to practice it
before you get there. Practice success.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
I like that Bose. You've you've had, you know, so
so much success, but you've also had incredible loss. I
want to talk a little bit about Peter, your first husband,
who passed away from cancer when your daughter was only
four years old. His obituary said, Peter and Bozeman's love
(19:27):
was one for the ages. What did those final months
with Peter teach you and how did it change the
way you live now?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
M M, my goodness it. You know, I've I've inherited
the spirit of spontaneity from my dad, who you know
oftentimes and my mother has better stories than I do
about this, but oftentimes we make decisions that felt like
(20:00):
he just woke up one day and decided to go
do this thing. And you're like, wait, that changes our
whole life, you know. And for a long time I
didn't like that inheritance, you know. I wanted to be
more thoughtful, more steadied. My mother makes decisions and she
(20:23):
plans and then executes. I want to be more like that.
But I found that often I'd wake up and then
it was like it was almost uncontrollable. It's like I
want to do this thing right now, and then I
go and do it without much thought, you know, sometimes
with some success and a lot of times to failure.
(20:44):
But it was during those last months with Peter that
I started to really understand what spontaneity means for long
term happiness and joy in your life. But I will
tell you that it was such a gift to be
able to know the end was coming and to be
urgent about life because we knew the end was coming.
(21:07):
Wouldn't it just be a miracle if all of us
understood that and therefore actually lived our lives like that?
That the urgency in my life is not built out
of a morbid and sad tale. It's built out of
this practice that Peter and I had in those final
(21:28):
months to do everything that we could. You know when
I was standing in the receiving line at his funeral,
lay out, sometimes in my arms, sometimes wrapped around my legs,
and a person after person after person, you know, shook
my hand or gave me a hug and said, I'm
(21:50):
so sorry. You know, he died so young. He died
four days before his forty fourth birthday. And while I
that he died too young, it also made me pause
about what living means, or what it looks like and
(22:11):
how we can do it, yo, that his death didn't
make me afraid of death. It made me more appreciative
of living. And what I learned in those months leading
up to his death and then the months following it
and the years following it has been that none of
us know when we're gonna go right, None of us do. However,
(22:32):
shouldn't we be inspired by that to actually live life
right now? Yo? That we say things like, oh, you know,
I'll get to that in six months. Well, Peter died
within six months of learning of his disease, So why
would you wait? Yo? And so what I have learned
in that time that taught me urgency in life, helped
(22:56):
me appreciate the spontaneity of my spirit is that regardless
of when it is that I go, I want people
to look at my life and be like, wow, that
girl lived. My God, she had a life. Whoo she
did some things, didn't she? You know? Because I may
not accomplish everything that I want to, because I believe
(23:20):
that I'll be that ninety six year old who still
has a list of things that she wants to do. However,
if I go sometime before then, I still want people
to look at my daughter, looked at the loved ones
I leave behind, and say, who that woman, what a
life she lived?
Speaker 5 (23:38):
Powerful Mama Alba as a mother, how did you help
your daughter through that heartbreaking loss?
Speaker 6 (23:48):
So I moved to New Jersey and then you know,
we both actually got sick around the same time, and
so I was very close by. And what I said,
and I still say, is that if I wasn't there,
what would I have done being so far away? But
it was so good to be really close by Jesse,
(24:11):
New Jersey, and.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
So I kept on.
Speaker 6 (24:13):
In fact, when he took his last breath, I was
there with Bosma and his parents and his sister Elua.
So I was able to be there, you know, just
just a stone through a way to be there the
whole time, so that that was very comforting, you know,
for me, and also to know that I really was
(24:35):
there to be able to hold her hands, to give
a hug, you know, whenever she needed it or so
that's that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I was close. I was very very close by.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
And you said that you were sick at the same
time as well. Yes, so, Bowls, you were dealing with
both your husband and your mom at the same time.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, my mom was diagnosed with her cancer first and
had started treatment, and then about three months later, Peter
was diagnosed with his cancer, and so I was running
between Memorials Slone Kettering, which is in New York, and
the hospital my mom was getting treated in in New Jersey,
(25:22):
while also holding down my full time job at PepsiCo
and also mothering my four year old daughter. And it
was a challenging time to say the least. Yes, I'm
sure you're looking at me and saying, how did you
even manage it? How did you do it? But there's
so many of us who are juggling responsibilities and grief
(25:45):
and oh the stress of it all. And I hope
that part of what people see when they look at
me now is a walking testimony the other so that
it is possible, it is absolutely possible to have all
of these things happen to you, to feel like a
victim in your life. Ye, Because let me tell you,
(26:09):
I'll be honest, there were many times when I looked
up to the heavens and I said, God, like, really, like,
why why does this have to be happening to me? Yeah? Yo?
But although God and I argued many times in that
I do live in such gratitude, you know, for the
(26:32):
experiences that have both been devastating and one those have
been uplifting, because I really do hope that my life
is a walking testimony the people will look at me
and say, oh, it's possible to still live a fulfilled life,
to still have a successful life, to still be happy
in it, even when you faced such hardship.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Might I say the answer to that is a strong affirmative.
And you know, it's interesting. We were with miss Sheila
Johnson last week. She's the first black well maybe not
the first, but black female billionaire. But her company is Salamander,
her hotels and her and she chose that because that
(27:21):
is the only animal that can walk through fire and survive.
And so what I am seeing with both of you
are two beautiful, bold salamanders. And now let's talk about
walking through fire. I'm gonna jump to the Real Housewives.
(27:43):
I don't know how to make competitorans, but I know
that you've talked about how meaningful it is to show
single black motherhood on Real Housewives franchise. Yes, what has
your daughter taught you?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Because she was four when Peter died. I was looking
at the years ahead with complete fear right and this
feeling overwhelmed, like, how am I going to do this
by myself. I didn't sign up to be a single parent.
I don't know how to do this. And at the
same time, my career was taking off like a rocket ship,
(28:22):
you know. I moved us from New York to Los
Angeles at that time. Peter had been dead about three
months four months when we moved to become the head
of marketing for Beats, which was of course created by
doctor dre and Jimmy Iving. Four months after I arrived
at Beats, we got acquired by Apple, and then I
(28:45):
became the head of marketing for iTunes and started to
build Apple Music. It was just a chaotic time you know,
while also dealing with the first year anniversaries of all
of the things, you know, the first without Peter, the
first Father's here, the first Mother's Day without Peter. You know,
it was like this hit after hit after hit while
(29:08):
trying to achieve. And there was one very poignant night where,
you know, she climbed into my bed. I was sitting
up stressed, couldn't sleep, and I looked over at her
and she was so soundly asleep, you know, and I
was so terrified, and I woke her up. You know,
(29:29):
this is like a big parenting fail, right, never wake
a sleeping child. But I woke her up, you know,
and I looked at her and it was like desperation
that I was just like, I was like, I don't
know what to do. So I don't know how to
raise you. I don't know how to do by myself.
I don't know why I said that to her, but
she just looked at me with her little sleepy eyes
(29:52):
and she just said okay, she said okay, you know,
and I think I tell that story because I didn't
know why I needed to do that, but her okay
was Oh. It was like a release. I felt like
(30:13):
I had been given permission to not know how to
do this, to not be perfect. And so in the
months following that, I mean when I tell you, it
was a big sigh of relief, like okay, okay, you
went to sleep. And so I changed from trying to
(30:33):
manage her in my life to managing with her in
my life.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
So I'm very curious, Like, you had this phenomenal career
in the c suite, what made you say yes to
a reality show?
Speaker 6 (30:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Well, you know. So here's the thing. When I was
in the corporate jobs, people were always you know, admiring
that I was one of one or one of few,
or you know, the first black woman to do this,
and the first, I mean it was it became a
little overwhelming because it was like, Okay, I get it,
I understand, you know enough. And while I don't mean
(31:12):
that to be flippant, because it wasn't easy to break
those glass ceilings and you know, be first in rooms,
I knew that when I was done with that corporate life,
I was done. You know, that I had achieved what
I needed to achieve. There's nothing left to prove to anybody.
And as I looked at the landscape of TV and film.
(31:36):
You know, I'm not one of those people that pretend
they don't watch TV. I love TV. I love storytelling.
You know, that is why I'm a marketer and why
I love to tell stories. I know how influential those
stories are. I know how they change politics, and how
they change society, and how they change your own self understanding.
You know, stories are so important, And as I looked around,
(31:59):
some of the most power stories that are told today
are in reality You know that we believe we're seeing unscripted, uh,
unscripted stories of people. You know, it's because when you
watch a film or you watch you know, scandal or something,
(32:19):
you know that somebody wrote it and it's not real.
But if you're looking at reality TV, you're looking at
people and saying, oh, okay, this is what this type
of person does. And when I looked at the landscape
and I was approached by NBCU and Bravo to join
the Housewives, I looked at that landscape and I said,
I don't see myself. You know, I don't see that.
(32:41):
I don't see the story of the corporate battie. I
don't I don't see the self made black woman you
know who, Yes, I love fashion and you don't say
love I love a good shop like the next month,
all right, But also the complexity of this life. You know.
(33:04):
It's like, yes, I've been successful in business, I have
made my own money, you know, And so where are
those women represented in that story, not just that you're
married into it, but that you made it, you know.
And again it's like no shade and no down to
anybody who's married into it, But where are we represented?
Speaker 3 (33:23):
You know?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
And then the all other complexity, which I think is
something that people don't give you enough credit to, is
that women who are in their forties and fifties are
such a unique time in life, you know, where it's
like you're dealing with the complexities of sometimes long relationships
that may be faltering, or you know, growing children who
(33:47):
are at injunctions in their life, inflection points, aging parents,
you know, and then you're dealing with your girlfriends. There's
a lot on on and so.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Ohhones don't and your daughter's hormones at the same.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Time, hormone everybody's home, every everyone was going off. But
I really did feel like, you know, a lot of
times in my career when people have said, oh, why
did you go do that job. Yeah, well, because I
was the only one who would go do it, you know.
And then after I was successful, people be like, oh,
of course that makes it. That have total sense, you know.
(34:27):
And so now it's like I joined Housewives and at
first people are like, man, why would you do that?
You want to go on TV and fight with women?
And I was like, why do I have to do that?
What do you mean? I don't have to do that,
you know, I can. I can represent myself, represent conflicts
resolution very well, you know, and tell the story of
women who are like me. And on top of that,
(34:48):
now that I've been successful at doing that, and I'm
in my second season and people are excited to see
me as a quote unquote breath of fresh air, I'm like, well,
of course we can so bring more, you know, let's see,
let's see more women like that, and let's change this
narrative that women of this age don't know how to
(35:11):
do anything else but fight with each other and have
conflict in ways that are silly and petty.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
For everything that you've done in this world and for
standing so boldly in your excellence and brilliance, but particularly
as a woman and as a black woman who are
Society teach us all too often to shrink and to
stay small, and so the fact the forging that path
(35:41):
of being bold and brilliant and unapologetic in that thank you, Scrolling.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Won't change your life, but subscribing just might tap that
button and stay connected to conversations.
Speaker 6 (35:53):
That kept.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Bose.
Speaker 5 (35:57):
You know, you've recently announced your engagement to k watched
the congratulations.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Thank you, Thank You.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
You've talked about dating as an alpha female and how
that comes with its own challenges. What were you looking
for in a partner and how did you know Keeley
was the one?
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Mmmm? Yeah, Well I haven't always you know, obviously had
the success I have, you know, in my in my
first marriage, I met Peter when I was twenty three.
We got married when I was twenty six, and so
I was just at the beginnings of my career. Now
I would argue that I've always been an alpha woman,
(36:39):
but I didn't yet have the the badges and the receipts,
and now I do, so I'm a little Yeah, there's
a big difference. It's a big difference when you feel
like you're alpha and then you can prove it, you know,
And I think there's a couple of challenges, you know,
for me in dating when you know, especially after Peter
(37:03):
died one. You know, I think for anyone who's a
widow or widower, you know that, you know, once your
partner goes, they become a saint in your eyes. You
know they're up here. You forget that they never picked
up their socks so that you yelled at them for
you know, any little thing that annoyed you, you know,
all of a sudden, now they is untouchable. Peter became
(37:23):
that for me. You know, all I remembered were the
good things, the things that he did that were just
woof above the cut, and so it became difficult for
a mortal man to live up to those expectations. Being
on top of that, I have a very impressionable daughter
(37:43):
who I don't want to, you know, see any relationship
with her mother that is not also of the highest caliber.
But those expectations and that kind of boundary made me
a very lonely woman, you know, and I think I
(38:05):
reached the point in my life where I just realized,
I was like, you know what, like I I don't
want to actually spend the rest of my life without
romantic love. You know, I have plenty of platonic love.
I have love of my mother, I have love of
my daughter, I have love of great friends. But I
also wanted romantic love. And I knew at the same
(38:26):
time that I couldn't also change my makeup, you know,
to be anything other than myself. And so I prayed
a lot about who God would bring into my life.
Who could celebrate me where I am and where I've been.
Who could encourage me to where I'm going, because oh,
(38:48):
I'm not even yet done. Who could contribute to not
just my life but my daughter's life. Who would pray
with me, you know? Who would love my parents the
way I I love my parents. Who would love my
culture the way I love my culture? And Kily Watson
came along, you know, and for many reasons I said yes,
(39:12):
But I will say that the main things were that one,
he loves my daughter very much, you know, calls my
mom mom, calls my dad dad. He became a Ganian
citizen mm hm. And I think you know, the part
about the career and being alpha, because that's usually where
(39:33):
you know you're described, is that he doesn't compete with me.
You know, he is very successful in his own lane,
but he encourages and he supports and he champions and
that perhaps is the biggest difference maker for me, is
a man who's willing to champion me and not compete
(39:55):
with me. Hm.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
Wow, Well may have was the moment that Kiley won you.
Speaker 6 (40:02):
Over when when he came to Ghana on his third date.
I met him for the first time, not here, but
in Ghana told me about him and she said he
was coming, and then he he came, So I knew
(40:25):
you were serious and he just adapted to everything around
him and uh yeah, So that that.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Was great early on that was third date.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Exactly, we had had two dates and he said, you know,
you want to go out again and I said, well,
I'm going to be in in Ghana, you know, for
about a month. And he was like, why can't the
date being Ghana? Well then come on then, and he did.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
I know that you've been open to Bowls about your
fertility struggles on the show and that you and Keighley
look into expanding your family, and that's such a deeply
personal thing to share. What made you decide to let
the camera into that part of your lives and what
do you hope that other women take from watching it?
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yes, well I will tell you that again. You know,
this goes back to what we were talking about before
about being practiced. You know, I've had a lot of
practice in the last fifteen years of being in the
corporate spotlight, you know, on sharing my personal you know,
because I think a lot of times what happens is
(41:37):
that leaders believe that they should have the wall up,
you know, so that they seem perfect. But that's not
what wins people to your side. You know. I think
many times people follow leaders because they have empathy for
the leader, you know, not just fear. And so I
have been very open for a long time about all
(41:59):
aspects of my life, and you know, I think sometimes
people will be like, oh, well, you shouldn't overshare, and
I'm like, but why.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
You know.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
What happens is that if people don't know what is
going on with you, then how can they help you.
And so many of us are afraid to look weak
because we need help. And perhaps I mean that's really
where the strength is, is the ability to ask for help.
And so even going back to when Peter died, you know,
and I walked into that boardroom of beats the very
(42:28):
first time, and it was overcrowded with you know, the
new members of my team and other hangers on who
want to see who this person was. I was coming
to take over, and what I told them first was that,
you know, I'm a widow of three months and I
am scared that the past is going to pull me under.
(42:49):
And so part of the reason I was there and
in that room and taking this big leap of faith
was to fight for something in the future that I
could hang onto that would pull me forward. And I
believe that that day I didn't just went over employees.
I won an army you know of people who would
go to battle for me because they knew that they
(43:11):
had to keep me uplifted in order for me to
keep going. And many of those people are still friends today,
you know, still people who call me to this day
to check up momy or to wish me happy birthday.
And so coming onto the housewives, I was not afraid
to share the very vulnerable, very personal things, because people
(43:33):
will judge you, people will talk about you. You know,
even in this fertility journey. You know, I've had the
critics who have said, ah, but you're too old, you know,
shouldn't you just sit down somewhere and like, ah, yeah,
if you only knew the number of people who have,
you know, slid into my dms and who've commented on posts,
(43:56):
who have said thank you so much for sharing. I'm
in the same position, or I'm you know, in my
early forties and I'm starting and I wasn't sure that
I could make it, but watching you tell it, you know,
and I'm given the good, the bad, and the ugly.
You know, I'm like, I'm bloated, I'm irritable. Okay, you
know you probably don't want to talk to me on
(44:18):
certain days. But I feel like the importance again of
storytelling is that we are honest in our human experience.
You know, They're so there are far many more people
who will identify with you if they know who you
are as a human. You know, and this also, you know,
hearkens back to when I was twelve and moved to
(44:39):
the US, is that, you know, we think that because
of our differences, we can't get along, you know, or
that we don't have anything to talk about. But the
most interesting thing is that we as human beings are
so curious about each other, and so the more that
we share. The more that you have people who are
interested in who you are, the more that they're interested
in who you are, the better to get to know you.
(45:00):
The better to get to know you, the better they
can advocate for you and love you. And so it
is a practice of being more human. So I'm not
afraid of my own vulnerability as a human because that's
the way that I connect to other people.
Speaker 5 (45:15):
Mama Abba, you turned seventy four in October, and you
want a mission to see all seven continents? Yes, as
a two time cancer survivor what do you want your
daughters to know about how to live a full life
at every age?
Speaker 6 (45:35):
Well, I think they see me, you know, do it,
and so I'm there for them. They encourage me. In fact,
one thing was much to ask me all the time
is that not only don't I look at but I
don't act like it either. So I don't know whether
it's a compliment or it's not, but I take it
as a compliment.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
And so I love to.
Speaker 6 (45:58):
Travel and I want to see other places, see other people.
To me, this is God's world and as much as
I can see, the better for me. So that's why
I want. I want to see those places and I
have the energy for it. So I'm going for it
(46:19):
and I'm ready to go to Antarctica. Whoever wants to
come with me too.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Bosma, thank you for this just deeply honest and personal
conversation and to some of the words that left with
me here. His death made me not afraid of dying,
but made me more appreciative of living. Life is a
walking testimony. And I want people to say, Wow, what
(46:46):
a life she lived. And I think all of us,
but every listener and viewer is in wow, what a
life she lived, and so blah blah blah. Thank you
for giving this extraordinary foundation of excellence and things and strength,
and you survive cancer twice and at seventy four you're
still showing your daughters what it means to live so fully.
(47:08):
And Bozma, thank you for this incredible example about resilience
and about what you choose to do. It's you know,
we often say that life is about resilience, but the
truth is, at times it is about breaking and about
what you choose to do after breaking, and to love
again and to teach all people to take up space.
(47:29):
And I love this to embrace their bad assness. No
matter what, however, might think, that is the most awesome title.
And so thank you both for your courage, your grace,
and as we say on this show, for living your
legacies every single day.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Thank you, thank you. This has really been such an honor.
I mean, I just I was so excited when the
opportunity presented itself, And as I said before, I don't
often get a chance to share this kind of space
with my mom and have her voice also heard, So
I am deeply thankful this is This is probably one
(48:07):
of the most heart filled conversations that I've had, and
I will treasure it. So thank you so much for
that gift. Thank Lily, appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you
for having me.
Speaker 6 (48:19):
I appreciate you.
Speaker 5 (48:21):
You're extraordinary too.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
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Hosts And Creators
Craig Kielburger
Marc Kielburger
Martin Luther King III
Arndrea Waters King
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