January 27, 2026 • 23 mins
Clay Cane is a bestselling author of The Grift, a history of Black Republicans. His next novel, Burn Down Master’s House, is inspired by long-buried stories of enslaved people who fought back. He has some time
Join host Angela Rye for this inspiring conversation with author Clay Cane. You can buy his new book here:
https://bookshop.org/p/books/burn-down-master-s-house-a-novel-clay-cane/3b5e5df179f72150
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Native Lampard is a production of iHeart Radio in partnership
with Reason Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome. Ours into.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Remembering is indeed an act of resistance. This is Angela
Riot's Native Lampid. It's the solo pod day on Tuesday, y'all,
and I am thrilled to be joined today by someone
who's a dear brother, a gifted writer and author, a
New York Times bestselling author in fact of the grift.
He has just released a novel called Burn Down Master's House.
(00:58):
And y'all know that this is so timely. It is
my privilege and honor to bring to Native Lampid my
dear friend Clay Caine.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
What's up. It's such an honor to be here. Thank you.
I love Native Lampod and Angela, thank you for doing
this on this pub day release date means so much
to me. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Oh, I'm so thrilled to do it.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
So first of all, can we talk about how this
book is prophetic, Like the fact that I don't know
if you were thinking of all this when you wrote
it or when you started, but I'd love to know
when you started and how much of this that we're
experiencing now, this and I'm saying this, I'm in Minnesota
right now.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, So how much of this were.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
We experiencing when you started writing this incredible novel?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Well, I began writing it when I was in college,
like twenty four years ago. So I began writing versions
of it. But you know how publishing is, Angela, you
know how media is. People said, no, that's not going
to work, that's not you know, no one wants to
read that. So when The Griff came out, I was
able to have some aton me of what what I
could do next, and some folks wanted me to do
(02:03):
like The Griff Part two. I said, no, no, no, no,
I want to do something different. Because I went to Rutgers.
My major was Black Studies and I was so inspired
by historical fiction books. It helped me to learn better,
to digest this knowledge better. So when I was writing it,
though in full last year, Trump had just won and
(02:25):
I just felt like I could see what was happening.
Because I know our history, the history rhymes. I knew
at some point people would would rise up, and it
pretty much happened immediately. And then I'm thinking about what's
happening right now in Minnesota. And this book ultimately is
about the people who rise up against their government that's
(02:48):
enacting hell on them. They're called the terrorists, enslaved people
who fought back, they were called the domestic terrorists. They
were called unpatriotic, they said, they were called animals. Right,
So all of this kind of rhymes. It all kind
of connects. There's a connectivity there. And the thing is
(03:10):
is what I've learned from these characters, based on real
people who have been erased in our history, is if
they lead you to believe there's no point in fighting back,
you won't even try. If they convince you that resisting
is futile, you're going to give up. So in these people,
in the worst of circumstances, they found radical hope, They
(03:32):
found a light. And I think that there's so many
blueprints throughout history. These people that I unearthed from the archives.
I think they represent that we have to believe that
we could fight. It starts here in our mind. How
we're going to burn down Master's House today. Master's House
is these tech bros, the billionaire CEOs, these rich guys
(03:57):
at the top. That's Master House right now. And what
can we do to burn it down, to reinvent it,
to start from the ashes? So it all made sense,
and you're right in this moment, it's just hitting me.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
You know, I'm curious because you have on that trailer
remembering is resistance is a form of resistance, And I'm
curious to know your thoughts on you know, young people especially,
you'll say like, I'm not my ancestors, and.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
We like you really not like we see that one way.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
They see it a completely different way that like they're like,
run up on me if you want to, and we're like,
you can run up on them either. So I want
to know for like the young folks who would feel like, oh,
I'm not inspired by you know, a narrative about an
ensulaved person. It makes me feel like, you know, I
can't ever overcome. What do you say to that narrative,
especially because a lot of that comes from the grifters. Yeah,
(04:54):
what do you say? What do you say to that?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Well, you know, listen, that's intentional them to think that way.
And I'm going to tell you something. I'm forty eight
years old. When I was a young kid in West Philly,
I thought the same thing. You know, why because nobody
taught me anything else. I didn't know about these people.
Everybody in the world should know who Charity Butler is,
who's in this book, who Josephine Webb is, who's in
(05:19):
this book. We should know who these people are. So
they think that because they've been taught to think that
white supremacy begins in the home, solidified in the school,
and etched and stone immedia, you got people on CNN
fitness influencers babbling about slavery like she knows something. So
(05:40):
it don't surprise me that some people think I am
not because you don't know your ancestors. My family was
enslaved in Gooshland, Virginia. The book begins in Gooshland as
a tribute to my family. That's where my family was enslaved,
and I learn so much about me. So my hope
is with this book is that you will know who
your ancestors are. It wasn't and you know, we love
(06:02):
Nat Turner and Denmark VC, but it wasn't just them,
that's right. It was every day fighting back. So that's
what I say to that you think that because you
don't know, and you've been taught to not know, you know,
you know, we grown Angela. When I was younger, there
was no Google, there was no Internet, you know what
I mean. I didn't know a lot of stuff until
(06:22):
I went to until I went to college at Rutgers University,
and that changed my life. So then, when you know,
remembering is an act of resistance, and that's one of
the themes in the book. The other theme in the book
is a lie that all the characters say. Don't let
them take what they can't touch. Don't let them take
what they can't touch. There are certain things they can't
(06:43):
touch when you remember. When you know, maybe a nonfiction
book is too much for you to read. But this
here through storytelling, which is very ancestral. Using storytelling to teach, right,
I think it can liberate you. I think it can
make you say things through a different lens. And speaking
of grifters, I do have a black Enslaver in this book.
(07:05):
And let me just say there's some similarities into Congress.
There are some similarities there. So there's layers in this.
There's always been a grift, there's always been a hustle,
even in the worst of times. So I think people
think that and I thought that once because I just
didn't know. And I hope this historical fiction does that
(07:25):
work to teach for the.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
People who, especially in this era right now, are feeling
hopeless like Okay, well I went out to vote in
my circumstances didn't change, or they never changed. I didn't
go to vote this time, and now they're way worse.
And no matter what, inspite of all of it, my
ad prices are still too high. When you said, when
you think about what it means, like the fabric of
(07:51):
who we are, the tapestry of who we are, don't
let them take what they can't touch. What are some
examples of that without giving you know too much away,
what are some examples of the things that we hold
that they can't touch? Besides our truths, because you know,
it's the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary this year of
the Declaration of independence, So we hold these truths, but
(08:11):
our truths look a little different.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So with us, can they.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Well, one of the things I explain how one flame,
one spark can light a thousand flop fires. So a
caller on my Serious XM show said this, that knowledge
manages terror, seem I'm outraged by what's going on. I'm
sure you are as well, Angela. But my knowledge manages
(08:39):
my anxiety and manages my terror. I'm able to see
the similarities. You know, we know how reconstruction ended, right,
we know the backlash to the civil rights movement. But
what I say to people who are upset about, well,
I voted and it didn't work out. First voting is
a long game. Just to be clear. You know, when
(09:01):
I was in Congress, when I'm sorry, when I was
a kid, there was no Jasmine Crockett, you know, I mean,
you have backseat waters in there, but she was few
and far in between. There was no Ayata Presley, there
was no ilhan Omar. So there is some progress there.
But you know, what I tell people is that there
is the long game and believing that things are a
(09:22):
journey and they kind of come back and forth, right,
But you also have to not let them believe that
we're never going to get out of this. It just
we can't go from there. I get the frustration, but
the idea that we're never going to get out or
they've got all this lockdown. The only reason why the
(09:44):
Civil War ends isn't because good white folks got a
conscience woke up. It's because black folks said no more.
The reason why we have a civil rights movement isn't
because linthe By Johnson was a great guy. He was
a fucking racist. Black folks said no, we're going to
hold you a acountable a Philip Randolph by ourd rustin.
They said no more. The reason why white women got
(10:07):
the right to vote through the suffrage movement is because
white women said no more. Right, So it's it's about us.
It's not the rich guy at the top. There's always
gonna be somebody pushing back. There's always gonna be somebody
uh uh saying this, this isn't gonna work. And the
other thing too, is then we have our internal fissures.
(10:31):
We have our internal divisions that really tear us apart.
You saw that with Kamala Harris. I don't got to
get into all the identity bullshit that went down in
this book. And this is gonna piss some people off.
I do have characters in here who we would now
say are gay or queer, right, And I guess some
(10:52):
folks think gay folks has popped up when Dinah Ross
had their first hit song. I don't know, but you
know what I'm saying, but there are gay people in
these in these story what we would now call gay,
and that's important to see, like you said, the tapestry
of who we are. So I think if we lean
into all that and not get caught up in these
fissures and these divisions that divide us, I think that
(11:14):
can bring us a lot more, a lot more hope,
that can spark us.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
You know the other thing that came to mind.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
When just thinking about burning down Master's house, which is
figure TOI yeah, in this day and age, because you
know that's the meta with the insurrection. So I would
just say, when you think about actual burning down, I'm
sure we had ancestors who rebelled and took their power
back in that way. But where I have heard about
(11:56):
the burning down of things more often is from the
bullies from the insurrection. It's the actual domestic terrorists, which
are you know, slaveholders and the people who were poor
and white who aided and embedded slaveholders. Of course, there
were some black folks who did that too, but it's
few and far between. So I'm curious, you know, how
do we in this era where we have the opportunity
(12:18):
to burn something down and by that we mean, take
something apart that is not serving citizens period, not just
black folks, but citizens period, and to rebuild and reimagine
and redevelop and reconstruct something that feels like it is
more in service to us.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
It's like the thing that's the top of mind is
my good brother Damio Solomon Simmons is represented the Tulsa
survivors for a long time and their descendants. And of course,
you know, we just lost mother Fletcher, so there is
one remaining survivor. They burned that place up, burned it down,
(13:00):
and we've said that you want to have your own space,
no problem, we'll create our own space. That isn't sufficient either, culaid.
So we burn whatever this is down and we go
to rebuild and reconstruct and reimagine for us. How do
we preserve it this time? I feel like that's part
of the lesson. Our folks would want us to inherit,
(13:20):
you know, and like do something different with.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
You know, it's funny. We I feel like we had
less power than after the Civil War before the Civil
War during reconstruction and used our power more. I feel
like we have more power now and use our power less. Yeah,
(13:47):
So how can we maintain these things. I think it's
about knowing your power, even in the margins. I always
get this stab. In eighteen sixty eight, and this is
before the fourteenth and fifteenth amendments, but there was reconstruction
acts that allowed some black folks to vote in the
former Confederacy only black men. Sadly, we had eighty percent
(14:11):
black voter turnout. Yes, can you imagine that? Eighty percent
black in Mississippi, in Louisiana, eighty percent black voter churnout.
That completely reinvents the South locally locally now. So one
of the things when I tell people like you were
saying earlier that things never changed, I said, but we're
(14:33):
not using our full capacity. We're not even using it
to the margins. Yeah, right, we're not even So there's
that element of using our full capacity once you get
the power. Some people have described the era of Barack
Obama being a reconstruction type era. You know, I get that,
(14:55):
But if you believe in that, were you using your
full capacity during that time? I mean, it's kind of
hard to fully was he was he using his full capacity?
Was Eric Holder using his full capacity right during that
And if they're not, how are you going to hold
them accountable. So I think the way the reason why
(15:16):
reconstruction fails isn't because you know, black folks were incompetent,
of course not. It's because there were powers that be
that wanted to pull back. And I believe we have
a better infrastructure now where we can uphold that. And
this may feel like too much work, whether it's a
city council meeting, a town hall meeting, your local nonprofit.
(15:38):
Nonprofits are everything. When I was a kid, I have
my first HIV test at Planned Parenthood in Philadelphia. These
things being as involved in our communities as possible, whatever
way you could do it. You know, for me, this
book is an act of literary resistance, but I understand
for other people it could be something else. You got
to find out what your superpower is. Yes, and listen,
(16:01):
that don't mean there's going to be casualties. There's going
to be losses. This country is going to be different.
But as Sweet Honey in the Rock says, if you
want change in your life, you got to walk in
the storm. If you make it out through the other side,
you're going to be different. Right, So it's all of that,
and listen, it doesn't mean if we get things back
(16:23):
to you know, progress, that it's going to stay that
way forever. I think one of the things that messes
me up, Angela is that a lot changed during COVID
and we were and I think I heard Kamala Harris
say this. One of the steps that we're doing is
some folks are trying to go back to what it
(16:43):
was like before COVID, and I'm like, no, I want
to be innovative. I want to be different, I want
to move forward. So now we're packing everybody back in
the office again, knowing that you shouldn't have to drive
an hour and a half to work and lose time
with your family and your kids. We're trying to just
make it how it was before. All I want to
do is progress. That's why I always say conservatism, what
(17:06):
are we trying to conserve? How can we progress forward?
So it's it's so many things there. It's for us
to work collectively. This book is not one point of view.
It's a collective of people. And lastly, I'll say as
far as that, as far as how do we maintain it,
we have to have radical hope. I know what may
(17:28):
sound cheesier and easier, said than done. But that is truth.
We got to have radical hope. Man, We can't we
how can you? It's like jumping into a relationship. You're like, well,
this shit ain't gonna work out, and then it falls
apart in six months. Well, obviously you doomed it from
the start. We got to have radical hope. And I
know it's hard, and I have friends who are struggling.
(17:49):
I have friends who've lost access to medication. It's definitely hard,
and you should more and be able to grieve and
go through that process. But where you're going to find
your hope, Where you're going to find community? Where are
you going to find that? So it's a collective.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
You mentioned one of your communities a few times in Philadelphia,
and of course, just this past weekend we saw I
don't know who these white men were, but they were
authorized allegedly to take down this these plaques that communicate
(18:26):
the story of the enslaved people who George Washington owned,
and a number of other stories related to the Transatlantic
slave trade and the horrors of slavery. Your book basically
spits in the eye of the work that they were
(18:46):
doing to destroy and dismantle our history. I want you
to talk to the authors who would be scared right
now to write their conscience right, to really tell the
stories that we know need to be told for us,
hold on to that kind of hope that you just
talked about. They're like, oh, well, if I do this,
my book is going to be banned. They may come
(19:07):
after me. I may be black or blacklisted. Maybe they'll
deport media Uganda. They want to get me out of here,
which you know, it could happen. Crazier things, Crazier things
have happened. But what do you say to those folks
who are like, how can I lean into that type
of resistance in writing on paper, especially in this hour
when it is needed so much.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Well, you have to know your craft. You have to
know your work. You have to know your history. If
you're going to lean into this kind of writing, or
whether it's writing about apartheid or whether it's about the Holocaust,
you have to know your shit. To be frank, you
got to know what you're doing. You got to do
your research. You know, I'm a Black studies major. I've
been writing about culture and history for a very very
(19:48):
long time. I have a radio show, So there's that
you got to know how to sing in tune and
know what I'm saying, Like, if you're going to try
to hit some notes, you got to know what you're doing.
So there's that. There's being able, there's knowing and being informed.
So you know your shit and you're on it. And
if anybody tries to, you know, clap back at you,
you know what you're talking about. So there's that. You
(20:09):
got to have a passion in the feel for it.
You know. I love this quote by James Baldwin. You
have to go the way your blood boils. And if
you go the way your blood boils, man, then everything
else will come, an audience will come, and you got
to be unapologetic about it. There was a fire in
me with this book, partly because my best friend was
(20:32):
dying of lupus when I was writing this book and
she was editing the book. She was an amazing editor.
She was an English lip major and she was editing
this book in her hospital bed. And this book is
out now, and although I'm a New York Times bestseller
and I have some good credentials, I'm not getting the
(20:53):
kind of media press that I should get, right because
of what you just said, Angela, there are people who
are afraid of the story, right, But in the name
of my dear friend Alexemonios, I am going to fight
for this story. I'm going to push this story. Her blood,
(21:14):
her soil, her root is in this story. And so
once I go on that path, and if you're an
author out there or any kind of creator, then I
just can't go wrong. I just can't go wrong because
they're always going to find a reason to come after you.
They're always going to find a reason to be angry
unless you're tap dance and then you're good. But eventually
that expires. Look at Kanye West, he's apologizing. Now, Nicki Minajs,
(21:36):
that's you. In a few years, it's coming, Nikki. You
see what Kanye just did. You might might be like
six months and six days, right, Oh, I changed my mind.
But yeah, so when I'm with that, I just feel unstoppable,
preight up covered. And like I said, this book is
(21:58):
based on real people, but all the secondary characters are
named after my ancestors in Gooselin, Virginia, So there is
something in there. So if you want to do this work,
it's a risk. A lot of folks wanted. Like I
said before the Griff Part two from me. I didn't
want to do that, but you gotta go the way
your blood boils. Any other way it'll be inauthentic. Any
(22:22):
other way, it won't even be real. So that's what
I say to that, and go for it.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I love this. I love it, Clay.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I got to tell you that one I'm going to
speak into existence that this is going to be a
Golden Globe winning Oscar winning film. Ryan Coogler holler at us.
I want to be the connector of these things, like,
come on, like we might have to rename.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
It so they can get it out from distribution, but we'll.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Know that it is inspired by right, right right, and
you're an incredible editor, and we know that the spirit,
her spirit is going to take you right through.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And if there's anything we can do.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Press y'all better pick him up because you're gonna feel
bad when he's on this New York Times best sellers
list next week and you missed it. So come on,
come on, press for y'all at and in the meantime,
we're gonna definitely lift it up on our page. I
love this trailer. If y'all miss it. At the top
of this Live stream. Please check it out. This is
my dear brother friend Play Caine, and he is talking
(23:21):
about burning down Master's house.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
That is his new book.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
It is a novel, It is timely, it is prophetic.
Y'all gotta check it out. And in the meantime, we
gotta hold on the hope. Play gotta get out of
here because you gotta sell some books. Until next time,
Welcome home, y'all. Native Lampard is a production of iHeart
(23:49):
Radio and partnership with Reising Choice Media. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Native Lampard is a production of iHeart Radio in partnership
with Reason Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome. Ours into.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Remembering is indeed an act of resistance. This is Angela
Riot's Native Lampid. It's the solo pod day on Tuesday, y'all,
and I am thrilled to be joined today by someone
who's a dear brother, a gifted writer and author, a
New York Times bestselling author in fact of the grift.
He has just released a novel called Burn Down Master's House.
(00:58):
And y'all know that this is so timely. It is
my privilege and honor to bring to Native Lampid my
dear friend Clay Caine.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
What's up. It's such an honor to be here. Thank you.
I love Native Lampod and Angela, thank you for doing
this on this pub day release date means so much
to me. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Oh, I'm so thrilled to do it.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
So first of all, can we talk about how this
book is prophetic, Like the fact that I don't know
if you were thinking of all this when you wrote
it or when you started, but I'd love to know
when you started and how much of this that we're
experiencing now, this and I'm saying this, I'm in Minnesota
right now.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, So how much of this were.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
We experiencing when you started writing this incredible novel?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Well, I began writing it when I was in college,
like twenty four years ago. So I began writing versions
of it. But you know how publishing is, Angela, you
know how media is. People said, no, that's not going
to work, that's not you know, no one wants to
read that. So when The Griff came out, I was
able to have some aton me of what what I
could do next, and some folks wanted me to do
(02:03):
like The Griff Part two. I said, no, no, no, no,
I want to do something different. Because I went to Rutgers.
My major was Black Studies and I was so inspired
by historical fiction books. It helped me to learn better,
to digest this knowledge better. So when I was writing it,
though in full last year, Trump had just won and
(02:25):
I just felt like I could see what was happening.
Because I know our history, the history rhymes. I knew
at some point people would would rise up, and it
pretty much happened immediately. And then I'm thinking about what's
happening right now in Minnesota. And this book ultimately is
about the people who rise up against their government that's
(02:48):
enacting hell on them. They're called the terrorists, enslaved people
who fought back, they were called the domestic terrorists. They
were called unpatriotic, they said, they were called animals. Right,
So all of this kind of rhymes. It all kind
of connects. There's a connectivity there. And the thing is
(03:10):
is what I've learned from these characters, based on real
people who have been erased in our history, is if
they lead you to believe there's no point in fighting back,
you won't even try. If they convince you that resisting
is futile, you're going to give up. So in these people,
in the worst of circumstances, they found radical hope, They
(03:32):
found a light. And I think that there's so many
blueprints throughout history. These people that I unearthed from the archives.
I think they represent that we have to believe that
we could fight. It starts here in our mind. How
we're going to burn down Master's House today. Master's House
is these tech bros, the billionaire CEOs, these rich guys
(03:57):
at the top. That's Master House right now. And what
can we do to burn it down, to reinvent it,
to start from the ashes? So it all made sense,
and you're right in this moment, it's just hitting me.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
You know, I'm curious because you have on that trailer
remembering is resistance is a form of resistance, And I'm
curious to know your thoughts on you know, young people especially,
you'll say like, I'm not my ancestors, and.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
We like you really not like we see that one way.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
They see it a completely different way that like they're like,
run up on me if you want to, and we're like,
you can run up on them either. So I want
to know for like the young folks who would feel like, oh,
I'm not inspired by you know, a narrative about an
ensulaved person. It makes me feel like, you know, I
can't ever overcome. What do you say to that narrative,
especially because a lot of that comes from the grifters. Yeah,
(04:54):
what do you say? What do you say to that?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Well, you know, listen, that's intentional them to think that way.
And I'm going to tell you something. I'm forty eight
years old. When I was a young kid in West Philly,
I thought the same thing. You know, why because nobody
taught me anything else. I didn't know about these people.
Everybody in the world should know who Charity Butler is,
who's in this book, who Josephine Webb is, who's in
(05:19):
this book. We should know who these people are. So
they think that because they've been taught to think that
white supremacy begins in the home, solidified in the school,
and etched and stone immedia, you got people on CNN
fitness influencers babbling about slavery like she knows something. So
(05:40):
it don't surprise me that some people think I am
not because you don't know your ancestors. My family was
enslaved in Gooshland, Virginia. The book begins in Gooshland as
a tribute to my family. That's where my family was enslaved,
and I learn so much about me. So my hope
is with this book is that you will know who
your ancestors are. It wasn't and you know, we love
(06:02):
Nat Turner and Denmark VC, but it wasn't just them,
that's right. It was every day fighting back. So that's
what I say to that you think that because you
don't know, and you've been taught to not know, you know,
you know, we grown Angela. When I was younger, there
was no Google, there was no Internet, you know what
I mean. I didn't know a lot of stuff until
(06:22):
I went to until I went to college at Rutgers University,
and that changed my life. So then, when you know,
remembering is an act of resistance, and that's one of
the themes in the book. The other theme in the book
is a lie that all the characters say. Don't let
them take what they can't touch. Don't let them take
what they can't touch. There are certain things they can't
(06:43):
touch when you remember. When you know, maybe a nonfiction
book is too much for you to read. But this
here through storytelling, which is very ancestral. Using storytelling to teach, right,
I think it can liberate you. I think it can
make you say things through a different lens. And speaking
of grifters, I do have a black Enslaver in this book.
(07:05):
And let me just say there's some similarities into Congress.
There are some similarities there. So there's layers in this.
There's always been a grift, there's always been a hustle,
even in the worst of times. So I think people
think that and I thought that once because I just
didn't know. And I hope this historical fiction does that
(07:25):
work to teach for the.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
People who, especially in this era right now, are feeling
hopeless like Okay, well I went out to vote in
my circumstances didn't change, or they never changed. I didn't
go to vote this time, and now they're way worse.
And no matter what, inspite of all of it, my
ad prices are still too high. When you said, when
you think about what it means, like the fabric of
(07:51):
who we are, the tapestry of who we are, don't
let them take what they can't touch. What are some
examples of that without giving you know too much away,
what are some examples of the things that we hold
that they can't touch? Besides our truths, because you know,
it's the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary this year of
the Declaration of independence, So we hold these truths, but
(08:11):
our truths look a little different.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So with us, can they.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Well, one of the things I explain how one flame,
one spark can light a thousand flop fires. So a
caller on my Serious XM show said this, that knowledge
manages terror, seem I'm outraged by what's going on. I'm
sure you are as well, Angela. But my knowledge manages
(08:39):
my anxiety and manages my terror. I'm able to see
the similarities. You know, we know how reconstruction ended, right,
we know the backlash to the civil rights movement. But
what I say to people who are upset about, well,
I voted and it didn't work out. First voting is
a long game. Just to be clear. You know, when
(09:01):
I was in Congress, when I'm sorry, when I was
a kid, there was no Jasmine Crockett, you know, I mean,
you have backseat waters in there, but she was few
and far in between. There was no Ayata Presley, there
was no ilhan Omar. So there is some progress there.
But you know, what I tell people is that there
is the long game and believing that things are a
(09:22):
journey and they kind of come back and forth, right,
But you also have to not let them believe that
we're never going to get out of this. It just
we can't go from there. I get the frustration, but
the idea that we're never going to get out or
they've got all this lockdown. The only reason why the
(09:44):
Civil War ends isn't because good white folks got a
conscience woke up. It's because black folks said no more.
The reason why we have a civil rights movement isn't
because linthe By Johnson was a great guy. He was
a fucking racist. Black folks said no, we're going to
hold you a acountable a Philip Randolph by ourd rustin.
They said no more. The reason why white women got
(10:07):
the right to vote through the suffrage movement is because
white women said no more. Right, So it's it's about us.
It's not the rich guy at the top. There's always
gonna be somebody pushing back. There's always gonna be somebody
uh uh saying this, this isn't gonna work. And the
other thing too, is then we have our internal fissures.
(10:31):
We have our internal divisions that really tear us apart.
You saw that with Kamala Harris. I don't got to
get into all the identity bullshit that went down in
this book. And this is gonna piss some people off.
I do have characters in here who we would now
say are gay or queer, right, And I guess some
(10:52):
folks think gay folks has popped up when Dinah Ross
had their first hit song. I don't know, but you
know what I'm saying, but there are gay people in
these in these story what we would now call gay,
and that's important to see, like you said, the tapestry
of who we are. So I think if we lean
into all that and not get caught up in these
fissures and these divisions that divide us, I think that
(11:14):
can bring us a lot more, a lot more hope,
that can spark us.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
You know the other thing that came to mind.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
When just thinking about burning down Master's house, which is
figure TOI yeah, in this day and age, because you
know that's the meta with the insurrection. So I would
just say, when you think about actual burning down, I'm
sure we had ancestors who rebelled and took their power
back in that way. But where I have heard about
(11:56):
the burning down of things more often is from the
bullies from the insurrection. It's the actual domestic terrorists, which
are you know, slaveholders and the people who were poor
and white who aided and embedded slaveholders. Of course, there
were some black folks who did that too, but it's
few and far between. So I'm curious, you know, how
do we in this era where we have the opportunity
(12:18):
to burn something down and by that we mean, take
something apart that is not serving citizens period, not just
black folks, but citizens period, and to rebuild and reimagine
and redevelop and reconstruct something that feels like it is
more in service to us.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
It's like the thing that's the top of mind is
my good brother Damio Solomon Simmons is represented the Tulsa
survivors for a long time and their descendants. And of course,
you know, we just lost mother Fletcher, so there is
one remaining survivor. They burned that place up, burned it down,
(13:00):
and we've said that you want to have your own space,
no problem, we'll create our own space. That isn't sufficient either, culaid.
So we burn whatever this is down and we go
to rebuild and reconstruct and reimagine for us. How do
we preserve it this time? I feel like that's part
of the lesson. Our folks would want us to inherit,
(13:20):
you know, and like do something different with.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
You know, it's funny. We I feel like we had
less power than after the Civil War before the Civil
War during reconstruction and used our power more. I feel
like we have more power now and use our power less. Yeah,
(13:47):
So how can we maintain these things. I think it's
about knowing your power, even in the margins. I always
get this stab. In eighteen sixty eight, and this is
before the fourteenth and fifteenth amendments, but there was reconstruction
acts that allowed some black folks to vote in the
former Confederacy only black men. Sadly, we had eighty percent
(14:11):
black voter turnout. Yes, can you imagine that? Eighty percent
black in Mississippi, in Louisiana, eighty percent black voter churnout.
That completely reinvents the South locally locally now. So one
of the things when I tell people like you were
saying earlier that things never changed, I said, but we're
(14:33):
not using our full capacity. We're not even using it
to the margins. Yeah, right, we're not even So there's
that element of using our full capacity once you get
the power. Some people have described the era of Barack
Obama being a reconstruction type era. You know, I get that,
(14:55):
But if you believe in that, were you using your
full capacity during that time? I mean, it's kind of
hard to fully was he was he using his full capacity?
Was Eric Holder using his full capacity right during that
And if they're not, how are you going to hold
them accountable. So I think the way the reason why
(15:16):
reconstruction fails isn't because you know, black folks were incompetent,
of course not. It's because there were powers that be
that wanted to pull back. And I believe we have
a better infrastructure now where we can uphold that. And
this may feel like too much work, whether it's a
city council meeting, a town hall meeting, your local nonprofit.
(15:38):
Nonprofits are everything. When I was a kid, I have
my first HIV test at Planned Parenthood in Philadelphia. These
things being as involved in our communities as possible, whatever
way you could do it. You know, for me, this
book is an act of literary resistance, but I understand
for other people it could be something else. You got
to find out what your superpower is. Yes, and listen,
(16:01):
that don't mean there's going to be casualties. There's going
to be losses. This country is going to be different.
But as Sweet Honey in the Rock says, if you
want change in your life, you got to walk in
the storm. If you make it out through the other side,
you're going to be different. Right, So it's all of that,
and listen, it doesn't mean if we get things back
(16:23):
to you know, progress, that it's going to stay that
way forever. I think one of the things that messes
me up, Angela is that a lot changed during COVID
and we were and I think I heard Kamala Harris
say this. One of the steps that we're doing is
some folks are trying to go back to what it
(16:43):
was like before COVID, and I'm like, no, I want
to be innovative. I want to be different, I want
to move forward. So now we're packing everybody back in
the office again, knowing that you shouldn't have to drive
an hour and a half to work and lose time
with your family and your kids. We're trying to just
make it how it was before. All I want to
do is progress. That's why I always say conservatism, what
(17:06):
are we trying to conserve? How can we progress forward?
So it's it's so many things there. It's for us
to work collectively. This book is not one point of view.
It's a collective of people. And lastly, I'll say as
far as that, as far as how do we maintain it,
we have to have radical hope. I know what may
(17:28):
sound cheesier and easier, said than done. But that is truth.
We got to have radical hope. Man, We can't we
how can you? It's like jumping into a relationship. You're like, well,
this shit ain't gonna work out, and then it falls
apart in six months. Well, obviously you doomed it from
the start. We got to have radical hope. And I
know it's hard, and I have friends who are struggling.
(17:49):
I have friends who've lost access to medication. It's definitely hard,
and you should more and be able to grieve and
go through that process. But where you're going to find
your hope, Where you're going to find community? Where are
you going to find that? So it's a collective.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
You mentioned one of your communities a few times in Philadelphia,
and of course, just this past weekend we saw I
don't know who these white men were, but they were
authorized allegedly to take down this these plaques that communicate
(18:26):
the story of the enslaved people who George Washington owned,
and a number of other stories related to the Transatlantic
slave trade and the horrors of slavery. Your book basically
spits in the eye of the work that they were
(18:46):
doing to destroy and dismantle our history. I want you
to talk to the authors who would be scared right
now to write their conscience right, to really tell the
stories that we know need to be told for us,
hold on to that kind of hope that you just
talked about. They're like, oh, well, if I do this,
my book is going to be banned. They may come
(19:07):
after me. I may be black or blacklisted. Maybe they'll
deport media Uganda. They want to get me out of here,
which you know, it could happen. Crazier things, Crazier things
have happened. But what do you say to those folks
who are like, how can I lean into that type
of resistance in writing on paper, especially in this hour
when it is needed so much.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Well, you have to know your craft. You have to
know your work. You have to know your history. If
you're going to lean into this kind of writing, or
whether it's writing about apartheid or whether it's about the Holocaust,
you have to know your shit. To be frank, you
got to know what you're doing. You got to do
your research. You know, I'm a Black studies major. I've
been writing about culture and history for a very very
(19:48):
long time. I have a radio show, So there's that
you got to know how to sing in tune and
know what I'm saying, Like, if you're going to try
to hit some notes, you got to know what you're doing.
So there's that. There's being able, there's knowing and being informed.
So you know your shit and you're on it. And
if anybody tries to, you know, clap back at you,
you know what you're talking about. So there's that. You
(20:09):
got to have a passion in the feel for it.
You know. I love this quote by James Baldwin. You
have to go the way your blood boils. And if
you go the way your blood boils, man, then everything
else will come, an audience will come, and you got
to be unapologetic about it. There was a fire in
me with this book, partly because my best friend was
(20:32):
dying of lupus when I was writing this book and
she was editing the book. She was an amazing editor.
She was an English lip major and she was editing
this book in her hospital bed. And this book is
out now, and although I'm a New York Times bestseller
and I have some good credentials, I'm not getting the
(20:53):
kind of media press that I should get, right because
of what you just said, Angela, there are people who
are afraid of the story, right, But in the name
of my dear friend Alexemonios, I am going to fight
for this story. I'm going to push this story. Her blood,
(21:14):
her soil, her root is in this story. And so
once I go on that path, and if you're an
author out there or any kind of creator, then I
just can't go wrong. I just can't go wrong because
they're always going to find a reason to come after you.
They're always going to find a reason to be angry
unless you're tap dance and then you're good. But eventually
that expires. Look at Kanye West, he's apologizing. Now, Nicki Minajs,
(21:36):
that's you. In a few years, it's coming, Nikki. You
see what Kanye just did. You might might be like
six months and six days, right, Oh, I changed my mind.
But yeah, so when I'm with that, I just feel unstoppable,
preight up covered. And like I said, this book is
(21:58):
based on real people, but all the secondary characters are
named after my ancestors in Gooselin, Virginia, So there is
something in there. So if you want to do this work,
it's a risk. A lot of folks wanted. Like I
said before the Griff Part two from me. I didn't
want to do that, but you gotta go the way
your blood boils. Any other way it'll be inauthentic. Any
(22:22):
other way, it won't even be real. So that's what
I say to that, and go for it.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I love this. I love it, Clay.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I got to tell you that one I'm going to
speak into existence that this is going to be a
Golden Globe winning Oscar winning film. Ryan Coogler holler at us.
I want to be the connector of these things, like,
come on, like we might have to rename.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
It so they can get it out from distribution, but we'll.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Know that it is inspired by right, right right, and
you're an incredible editor, and we know that the spirit,
her spirit is going to take you right through.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And if there's anything we can do.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Press y'all better pick him up because you're gonna feel
bad when he's on this New York Times best sellers
list next week and you missed it. So come on,
come on, press for y'all at and in the meantime,
we're gonna definitely lift it up on our page. I
love this trailer. If y'all miss it. At the top
of this Live stream. Please check it out. This is
my dear brother friend Play Caine, and he is talking
(23:21):
about burning down Master's house.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
That is his new book.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
It is a novel, It is timely, it is prophetic.
Y'all gotta check it out. And in the meantime, we
gotta hold on the hope. Play gotta get out of
here because you gotta sell some books. Until next time,
Welcome home, y'all. Native Lampard is a production of iHeart
(23:49):
Radio and partnership with Reising Choice Media. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Tiffany Cross
Andrew Gillum
Angela Rye
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