January 23, 2026 • 25 mins
Parents of young Black men and boys are familiar with “the talk,” the conversation about how to survive encounters with law enforcement. It’s an unfortunate necessity.
ICE is now indiscriminately asking Black folks for their papers and detaining them. We got a question from one of YOU about how this new reality affects “the talk.” The answer is much the same as it's always been BUT we appreciate the reminder that it is a good time to refresh our kids on “the talk.”
ALSO we got an update from one of our viewers on the political situation in Tanzania.
Join our hosts Angela Rye, Andrew Gillum, and Bakari Sellers for this week’s MiniPod!
If you’d like to submit a question, check out our tutorial video: http://www.instagram.com/reel/C5j_oBXLIg0/ and send to @nativelandpod.
Welcome home y’all!
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Native Land Pod is brought to you by Reasoned Choice Media.
Thank you to the Native Land Pod team:
Angela Rye as host, executive producer, and cofounder of Reasoned Choice Media; Andrew Gillum as host and producer, Bakari Sellers as host and producer, and Lauren Hansen as executive producer; LoLo Mychael is our research producer, and Nikolas Harter is our editor and producer. Special thanks to Chris Morrow and Lenard McKelvey, co-founders of Reasoned Choice Media.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Native Lad Pod is a production of iHeart Radio in
partnership with Reason Choice Media. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome,
Welcome home, everybody. This is this week's mini pod.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I know y'all are dying to hear what.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Were talking about, uh before we actually get into the
topic for this week, If it's okay with my co
host again, I'm Andrew Gillum. I'm joined here by some
other people.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I think that is that.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I don't know who that dude is, but his title
on my computer says that's Bacari Sellers.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome Bakari to this episode. I'm messing with y'all.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Y'all. We wanted to get into some questions. One in particular, actually,
and that is around does the talk still work? And
when we say the talk, we're talking about what probably
all of us can reflect on from our childhood, at
least certainly people of color and and and black boys
in particular, when your parents or someone meetingful in your
(01:01):
life sat you down and said this is what you do,
this is what you don't do, particularly as it relates
to law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Our talk was broader a little bit broader than just.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
The police it was also adults period.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
It was also about people who touch you.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
It was also about how you scream out for help,
what was appropriate, what was right, what wasn't. So we
want to we want to delve into that. But before
we do, we've got a really important update from a
topic that you know. Frankly, depending on where you each
your news, some of us have heard from, others have not,
but we all need to know.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Take a listen.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Hello, Nady Bland. My name is Gloria al So. Tanzania
was in the news a lot towards the end of
last year. There were questions surrounding the election, which kept
sama has sign in power, and reports of protests being
met with heavy state response. Human rights groups and independent
observers documented loss of life. Two weeks later, President Hassan
announced the creation of a Commission of Inquiry to investigate
(01:59):
those who lost their lives, which does confirm that people
in fact lost their lives. Now some have questioned this commission,
wondering if Samya should have been involved in selecting those
who will be investigating. And we're still waiting on the
results of that inquiry.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
By the way.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Then, on Tanzania's Independence Day, which was December ninth, the
streets were quiet, public gatherings were limited. Even social media
accounts of some activists rallying people to protests were taken down. However,
the government and its supporters have said that reports of
repression are exaggerated and driven by foreign influence. And only
a few days ago President Hassan apologized for the internet
(02:35):
shutdown that happened after the election, saying it was a
necessary step to protect national order. But what makes this
moment so significance is not just what happened, but how
Tanzanians are responding. On one side, citizens are defending the state.
On the other side are those who do want to speak,
but they feel unsafe doing so, and because the people
are divided, they cannot collectively demand good governance. It is
(02:57):
what happens anywhere when power is no longer a question. Well,
thank you so much Native Land for having me and
for creating space for Africa in this conversation.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Love that, you know, I just angela, Yeah, I just
wanted to shout out really quickly. We started following what
was going on in Tanzania around the elections, you know,
before the end of the year in twenty twenty five,
and I learned a lot. Was just completely immersed in
what was happening. Had some experts come on, including a
woman who is a Kenyan observer. I went over to
(03:28):
Tanzania to watch what happened in the elections and nearly
lost her life. I wanted to shout out Gloria for
giving us that update. I think it's so important for us.
We say native lampod and welcome home, y'all. We want
to create a virtual space for all of us of
African descent throughout the diaspora to share what's happening, to
keep us informed and absolutely to let us know if
there are things that we can do differently to uplift
(03:50):
and support the work that you all are doing. So
thank you, Gloria.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Well done, well done, well done, We'll done.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
That was educational to me. I mean I got to
go back and do my research on Tanzania. Sometimes I
get the news of the day that's right here. I
mean we got here at home, measles out and breaking
South Carolina like it's hard. Sometimes you get blinded and
realize that as a part of the dia ask where,
if nothing else, you should read some shit so you're
at least knowledgeable about the pain that others are suffering
and going through.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
So thank you for that. That's fair. That's fair.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well, y'all, we'll move just real quickly into this into
this other question about the talk.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I said a little bit about what.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
The talk was for me and our household and our family.
Bakari Angela. I know, Angela to you, but also you
you got an older your your baby sister to an
older brother and so and a dad and mom activists,
so we could be more broadened in y'all's household too.
Butkar what was it like for you?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
What was the talk?
Speaker 5 (04:43):
Well, it's not just the talk, I mean, it's it's
also just others, like we don't like I don't buy
my kids toy guns. They don't have they don't have
the NERF guns or anything like that. My parents didn't
buy it for me. It was always this feeling that, no,
we didn't want any miss interpretations. We don't want any
accidents happening to black children because we don't get the
(05:03):
benefit of our youth. You know, Donald Trump Junior and
what's the other one, Donald Trump Eric?
Speaker 2 (05:10):
They are they are.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Something other than eminently punishable.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
Well, I said that one time he got sued by kids.
I can't say that no more, but they are. I
said a kid had a punchable face, and they sued me.
But let's let's actually let's actually roll roll a question
so people can see where this came from.
Speaker 6 (05:29):
What's up, Native Land? Welcome home? This is Craig and Brooklyn.
I guess my question has to do with, you know,
the talk that you always have fathers and sons, specifically
black fathers and sons always have to have about what
to do when they encounter law enforcement. Well, the stakes
(05:54):
have gone significant, are significantly uh higher. Now I can't
make Hesit tells what's going on and so many things
coming at us from day to day. So specifically, put
the guys on the panel.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
What would you suggest.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
How we modify that discussion that we have. I mean,
I have a fifteen year old myself, so yeah, I
would love.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Some suggestions on what's gotta tell you?
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Man?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Thanks now, good to see you, Craig. Greg got off
the stoop. I think the last time we saw him
he was sitting on the steps.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Craig, let me say something that is somewhat the antithesis
to this podcast, the antithesis to our upbringing and the
antithesis to what we echo a lot of times in
our rabble rousing Matthew chair flipping over shaking, the kind
of orbit that we live in, and my conversations with
my children, as I would advise anybody to have, are
(06:58):
very very selfish when dealing with law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Your number one priorities should be to come home. Period.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
I am overly focused on my children and having interactions
with law enforcement number one that allows them safety to
come home, and number two transparency. I know a lot
of times when people interact with law enforcement, the first
they didn't want to say is fuck you. I'm an American,
this is wrong, this is unconstitutional. You know you're already
(07:29):
agitating the situation, you're escalating. Ain't nothing about this de escalation.
Don't get your hands on me. I'm an American. Blah
blah blah blah blah. And I know that people find
some level of disappointment in these remarks because what we're
seeing in our streets right now is anything but saying,
is anything but sanctified, is anything but constitutional. But I'm
(07:51):
very selfish when it comes to my children, and I
tell them all the time my number one priority is
them For them to come home. The best advice my
dad ever gave me was when the police get behind you.
This is a very South Carolina thing. It's not necessarily
applies in big cities, but it may. We have a
lot of dark roads, you know. I was driving a
Chrysler three hundred, and you know, every time you get
(08:12):
on a dark road, police get behind you. My dad said,
call nine one one immediately. So I would call nine
one one. I would let them know that I'm driving,
you have an officer behind me, and I'm going to
a welled area, and I would pull up at a
gas station or something like that. One, so they knew
I wasn't fleeing. Two, so they knew I wasn't a
problem in three, so that I could do the number
one goal, a priority that my parents taught me, which
(08:35):
was to come home. I think there's a place for protests.
I think there's a place for coming home.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
You know that piece, that last piece you mentioned on
the on the dark roads. My parents said the same thing,
and it was except they said slow down to a
slow that is still moving and turn your hazard lights
on so that they know you're not trying to flee,
that you're not trying to escape you and go somewhere.
(09:00):
And but Kari, I don't think you are out of
the normal. When you say your expectation is selfish, Craig,
asking this question is asking for selfish reasons. Anything that
I say in offering would be from a selfish perspective.
In fact, I was going to say, first off, Craig,
he has kid, you know, has a son who he
(09:21):
ought to be teaching us the lessons of what he said.
You know, when he said fifteen year old, I almost
shuddered because I'm thinking, godly, I got an eleven year
old boy and girl, and I don't want them to
be fifteen yet, you know, And I'm looking down the
pipe and knowing that that's coming. And for me, all
of these talks, this one and then the range of
others are always being balanced around not trying to rob
(09:46):
them of their kid ears, their youth, the stuff that
white kids get without question, right, they can play with
toy guns and water guns and all those kind of things.
But I'm like you, we don't have them in our house.
And if you bring one, you you know something, just
like you don't bring white barbies to my daughter forgets.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Oh please, God, so.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I get most frustrated by the world we live in
when I think about all of the innocence that get
stripped from our babies, from our kids. I take my
kids to the park on the weekends a lot. We
just was there this weekend at the park and again
on MLK Day, and I'm remembering distinctly this one neighborhood park.
(10:36):
It's a great part, very wonderfully tried, and that's something
you look for when you outside in the summer time
in Florida. But it's also populated by a lot of
white families and older white folks who walk in the area.
And I remember showing up. We were clearly not of
the neighborhood. We had come into the neighborhood driven and
(10:56):
kids get out of the car, and as we're walking
up to the park, you know, people start to pause
and they turn and for different reasons, they're looking at us, obviously,
and these two white women who were walking, they come
to a stop and they lean down and they are
asking my kids their names and where do they want
to do when they grow up, and obviously these cute
and oh she's just adorable, and all this kind of thing,
(11:17):
and all I could think during that interaction was they're
a durable now, and I'm just curious in your mind,
when do they become a threat?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
When do you cross the street? Which or purse?
Speaker 1 (11:27):
When do you lock your door when you see them
on approach?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
And I got it angry.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I sort of had into indignantness, and I think it
probably showed in my interaction then with the two women afterwards,
says all I kept thinking about was when do my
beautiful boys become.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
A threat to you?
Speaker 1 (11:44):
When do you call the police on them because they're
in the wrong place, in the wrong neighborhood. They don't
live here and they're loitering. When do they stop being
the kids who are just here for play and now
they are a dangerous element to society at least through
your life ends? And I cried so hard in the car,
(12:05):
you know, they started playing ball and I kind of
went back and I can still see them, but I
was really angry by it because and this was stuff
was going on in the country as well, and I
think that further animated me around, like, right, they're beautiful boys,
and they're going to be beautiful boys when they're eleven
and when they're fifteen, and when they're on their way
(12:28):
into adulthood and so on and so forth. But I
also know that society is going to at some point
determine that their lives aren't worth what yours are, that
they are, by their very presence, a danger, and it
terrifies me. I know where we live, I know the
neighborhood we live in, I know what I say to
(12:50):
my kids about beating dark home. In fact, they don't
even live our street to play with nobody and those
kinds of protective things. They're not yet at the age
where I've gotten to have a real, real uh sit
down on some on a couple of issue areas around
law enforcement and racism, really racism, the structure of it
(13:13):
and how it shows up, because I've been battling with
preserving a certain set of innocence that for just a
little longer, and I hope and I don't think it's
in a debilitating way, but it is in a way
that is like, yeah, I do have to make sure
my kid comes home and that they say that they're safe,
(13:34):
and my wife and I do those things to try
to curate that for them.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
But I also want my.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Kids to still believe that their interactions with in certain
ways and in places. Is is as innocent is? I
think it is at the moment, but that I also
know will change.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
When we were doing State of the People, met the
mother of a slain black man at the hands of police.
Her name is Paulina Bryan, and Paulina started to idate
around creating an app when her son continued to be
pulled over by law enforcement or some system, and in
(14:20):
twenty sixteen her son was killed by law enforcement, and
she continued to develop what is now called Life Lawyer app.
Meeting her at State of the People was a game
changer for me because you realize just how often black
folks have to turn tragedy into some type of prevention
(14:41):
mechanism for others, for our other folks. And I think
now what I'm wrestling with, honestly, y'all, is as an
attorney watching constitutional right after constitutional right being violated and
trampled on by ice. You know, we talk about does
the talk still work? Yes, you should still have to talk.
We have to also brace our family members for me,
(15:03):
my godsends, for you, all your children, and my god daughter.
We have to brace them for the fact that you
can say all the right things have the right tone,
you know, approach correctly, and still have issue. You can
use technology to your benefit in your favor to record
the thing. You can be an off duty police officer
and they slap your phone out of your hand as
(15:25):
we as we heard in our main episode. But we
also have to not just take law and the law
into our own hands, but we also have to rely
on our elected representatives to have our backs. Corey Booker
recently introduced two measures, and I want to roll this
clip because this may be the only thing that keeps
us alive in interactions with ICs.
Speaker 7 (15:47):
We must do more. The tragic death of Renee Good
has brought into clear spotlights so many of the things
that Trump administration is doing to make our communities less safe.
But one of the most alarming crises are issues of
training and accountability standards for ice officers. The Trump administration
(16:08):
has cut the training down from five months to about
a month and a half. They have eliminated age requirements
and are hiring recruits as young as eighteen years old.
They're putting people into training before their background checks are
even complete, and so when you see people cut corners,
people die. I'm continuing to lead new legislation that will
(16:29):
bring further high professional standards and accountability to ice officials.
We must also set minimum training standards. We must ban
the hiring of anyone affiliated with hate groups. We must
hold agency leaders accountable. We must require every federal officer
to wear a body worn camera during public facing enforcement actions,
(16:51):
and require that footage be preserved so that the truth
can't be hidden or destroyed. What Donald Trump is doing
is undercutting the stre of our law enforcement. He is
diminishing and diluting standards. He is taking actions that are
wholly unacceptable to the safety of our nation.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
So this might be one of the only things that
we have to rely upon. We have to hope that
both of these bills, the FLESH Act Federal Law Enforcement
Standards and Accountability Act and Focus Federal Officer Camera Usage
for Safety Act, can get to the center.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Face stuff is in there too, the masks.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
And yeah well, and as we know, Jasmine Crockett introduced
the Clear Act for that. But we have to hope
that the Senate will take up these measures, and then
the House will take up these measures, and then that
the President finds it in his heart to sign these
measures since he is now acknowledging that ICE has made mistakes,
but the question remains what parts of the talk are enforceable?
(17:51):
Right We have always had rogue officers completely disregard when
we are asserting our rights, relying on you know, goods
legal doctrine in these interactions. But there are people all
the time who abuse their power, and so we have
to figure out what is our way around that, And
I don't know the answer. I think we can raise
(18:12):
legal funds till we're blowing the face, but these we
still have to rely on people operating from goodwill and
in integrity to do the right thing. And that is
a tall order right now, given their limited training, given
the the you know, the visceral response that people who
look different than them, who are other than them, the
fact that the Proud Boys founder could be affiliated with
(18:33):
Owl's ICE, the fact that some January six ers are
part of our part of ICE, and the fact that
border patrol anywhere near the border in Minnesota. Like I just,
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
I agree with all of that, And I appreciate Corey
for talking about the legislative action that must be taken.
He's right about that, but I mean, people are being
drug out of their houses right now. People are being
brutalized right now. And as you eloquently pointed out, kind
of the conjunction junction of this what's your function Angela,
(19:07):
like you talked about the legislative process of this happening,
we're talking about we're talking about that level of accountability
coming in maybe two years if at all, like Donald
Trump's gonna sign it. I think that one of the
things that Corey Booker is also highlighting though, which I
take from that is the import of one local elected officials,
(19:27):
Mary Mariotti, who is the district attorney out there, employing
her local police to arrest these individuals who they seek
doing wrong, committing crimes. And two elections in November matter
more than these may be the most I mean, we
say it all the time, Andrew. What do people hate
when we say when we talk about elections, this is
the most important.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
It is what The states keep getting higher, The states
keep getting higher, and you know what Ice is about
you with their budgetary expansion through Trump's and the Republic
looks big, beautiful bill become the largest law enforcement agency
in domestic territory in the United States collectively. We already
(20:10):
know right now in Minnesota, they are three times the
size of all of the municipal law enforcement agencies that
cover these areas combined three times, and unfortunately that three
times is not an expansion on the law enforcement presence
of that area. They now have become the problem to
(20:30):
local law enforcement. Law enforcement having to respond to scenes
of havoc that have been created by other law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I'm not a.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Big abolished person, and I won't use that language here,
but as we know it ICE agents and the agency
right now that has been developed under the Homeland security model,
the Homeland Secretary after nine to eleven does not work.
(21:05):
This is one of those examples of where the wheel
has to be broken. I am not saying that there
should not be immigration enforcement in the country, but it
has to be reimagined because what has happened in this case,
this is not an exception. That's seven out of ten
of their interactions and then they're taken into custody. Are
(21:26):
people who are legally here, who are not criminals. If
seven out of ten is a fail, then yo, goddamn
whole thing is a fail. You don't pass the class
with a thirty percent, you don't. So if it which
tells me that this then is not the exception.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
This is the rule for that department, this.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Institution, and so the institution is a failure and it
must be leveled. We can be inventive about what immigration
enforcement within our borders looks like. We can be hash
standards and be tough on all those things and follow
the process and have a great old bill that gets
to that. But this agency does not work for the
(22:17):
American people. Seven eras out of ten attempts is problematic,
and that is systematic. That is not an exception. That
no longer is the exception. The exception for ICE agents
and their record. The exception is getting it right. If
(22:37):
they get it right, that is the exception. And that's
that's too big a problem.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
No, I agree with you, and I know, I know
we about to get out of here in a minute.
But I would just say I'm glad you couch it
the way you did, because all three of us are four,
you know, making sure that we have some sembilance of
order within our borders and not having open borders and
all of those things and having immigration enforcement. I do
want to hear somebody say that one of money has
said it. I think it was, Uh, what's what's my
(23:03):
friend's name with the black name from Illinois? The congressman,
what she got the black name?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Is she black? She white? Oh? From Chicago?
Speaker 5 (23:15):
Anyway, what I what I what I'm saying is that
we should, uh, we should make sure that we impeach Christie.
Now That's all I wanted to say on the way out.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, yeah, I think impeachment of NOME is symbolically a thing.
But I just I want to admonish our Congress and
the Democrats who I hope will be in charge very soon.
That first of all, if if that Hefa is still around,
then it's already been way.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Too long, all right. So this is this is a
this is a this is.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
A in your dreams while you sleeping and on your
break thing.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
To do get rid of her.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
But the problem is getting rid of her does not
abolish the problem.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
That does not get rid of the problem.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
The problem, as has been exposed for everybody to see,
is that the agency as it is now established and
is operating does not work for the American people's interests.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
And it must be leveled.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
And we will go anew and think of create a
new around an agency that is in service to our
interests to protect our borders, to enforce our immigration laws,
and to serve the interests of the American people. But
as it is established right now, it does not work.
It has to go. Anything less than that is not
(24:36):
a capitulation. It is a complete and total surrender on
law and order in America.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Has to go.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
So what I'm saying now, we gotta go. Yeah. So
thanks for hanging in there with us, Craig, Thanks again
for the question. You see, you set us up for
other things, and so apologies in advance that we tear
it along and tear it off.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
But thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
It's a meaningful one and I hope people are thinking
meaningfully about it in their own homes and families and
can share your experiences share them with us. We'd love
to play your videos back around what you're doing, what
the talk looks like, and whether or not you think.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
It still works in today's day and age. Welcome out, y'all.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Native Lampard is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership with
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iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows,
Native Lad Pod is a production of iHeart Radio in
partnership with Reason Choice Media. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome,
Welcome home, everybody. This is this week's mini pod.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I know y'all are dying to hear what.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Were talking about, uh before we actually get into the
topic for this week, If it's okay with my co
host again, I'm Andrew Gillum. I'm joined here by some
other people.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I think that is that.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I don't know who that dude is, but his title
on my computer says that's Bacari Sellers.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome Bakari to this episode. I'm messing with y'all.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Y'all. We wanted to get into some questions. One in particular, actually,
and that is around does the talk still work? And
when we say the talk, we're talking about what probably
all of us can reflect on from our childhood, at
least certainly people of color and and and black boys
in particular, when your parents or someone meetingful in your
(01:01):
life sat you down and said this is what you do,
this is what you don't do, particularly as it relates
to law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Our talk was broader a little bit broader than just.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
The police it was also adults period.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
It was also about people who touch you.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
It was also about how you scream out for help,
what was appropriate, what was right, what wasn't. So we
want to we want to delve into that. But before
we do, we've got a really important update from a
topic that you know. Frankly, depending on where you each
your news, some of us have heard from, others have not,
but we all need to know.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Take a listen.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Hello, Nady Bland. My name is Gloria al So. Tanzania
was in the news a lot towards the end of
last year. There were questions surrounding the election, which kept
sama has sign in power, and reports of protests being
met with heavy state response. Human rights groups and independent
observers documented loss of life. Two weeks later, President Hassan
announced the creation of a Commission of Inquiry to investigate
(01:59):
those who lost their lives, which does confirm that people
in fact lost their lives. Now some have questioned this commission,
wondering if Samya should have been involved in selecting those
who will be investigating. And we're still waiting on the
results of that inquiry.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
By the way.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Then, on Tanzania's Independence Day, which was December ninth, the
streets were quiet, public gatherings were limited. Even social media
accounts of some activists rallying people to protests were taken down. However,
the government and its supporters have said that reports of
repression are exaggerated and driven by foreign influence. And only
a few days ago President Hassan apologized for the internet
(02:35):
shutdown that happened after the election, saying it was a
necessary step to protect national order. But what makes this
moment so significance is not just what happened, but how
Tanzanians are responding. On one side, citizens are defending the state.
On the other side are those who do want to speak,
but they feel unsafe doing so, and because the people
are divided, they cannot collectively demand good governance. It is
(02:57):
what happens anywhere when power is no longer a question. Well,
thank you so much Native Land for having me and
for creating space for Africa in this conversation.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Love that, you know, I just angela, Yeah, I just
wanted to shout out really quickly. We started following what
was going on in Tanzania around the elections, you know,
before the end of the year in twenty twenty five,
and I learned a lot. Was just completely immersed in
what was happening. Had some experts come on, including a
woman who is a Kenyan observer. I went over to
(03:28):
Tanzania to watch what happened in the elections and nearly
lost her life. I wanted to shout out Gloria for
giving us that update. I think it's so important for us.
We say native lampod and welcome home, y'all. We want
to create a virtual space for all of us of
African descent throughout the diaspora to share what's happening, to
keep us informed and absolutely to let us know if
there are things that we can do differently to uplift
(03:50):
and support the work that you all are doing. So
thank you, Gloria.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Well done, well done, well done, We'll done.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
That was educational to me. I mean I got to
go back and do my research on Tanzania. Sometimes I
get the news of the day that's right here. I
mean we got here at home, measles out and breaking
South Carolina like it's hard. Sometimes you get blinded and
realize that as a part of the dia ask where,
if nothing else, you should read some shit so you're
at least knowledgeable about the pain that others are suffering
and going through.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
So thank you for that. That's fair. That's fair.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well, y'all, we'll move just real quickly into this into
this other question about the talk.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I said a little bit about what.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
The talk was for me and our household and our family.
Bakari Angela. I know, Angela to you, but also you
you got an older your your baby sister to an
older brother and so and a dad and mom activists,
so we could be more broadened in y'all's household too.
Butkar what was it like for you?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
What was the talk?
Speaker 5 (04:43):
Well, it's not just the talk, I mean, it's it's
also just others, like we don't like I don't buy
my kids toy guns. They don't have they don't have
the NERF guns or anything like that. My parents didn't
buy it for me. It was always this feeling that, no,
we didn't want any miss interpretations. We don't want any
accidents happening to black children because we don't get the
(05:03):
benefit of our youth. You know, Donald Trump Junior and
what's the other one, Donald Trump Eric?
Speaker 2 (05:10):
They are they are.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Something other than eminently punishable.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
Well, I said that one time he got sued by kids.
I can't say that no more, but they are. I
said a kid had a punchable face, and they sued me.
But let's let's actually let's actually roll roll a question
so people can see where this came from.
Speaker 6 (05:29):
What's up, Native Land? Welcome home? This is Craig and Brooklyn.
I guess my question has to do with, you know,
the talk that you always have fathers and sons, specifically
black fathers and sons always have to have about what
to do when they encounter law enforcement. Well, the stakes
(05:54):
have gone significant, are significantly uh higher. Now I can't
make Hesit tells what's going on and so many things
coming at us from day to day. So specifically, put
the guys on the panel.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
What would you suggest.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
How we modify that discussion that we have. I mean,
I have a fifteen year old myself, so yeah, I
would love.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Some suggestions on what's gotta tell you?
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Man?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Thanks now, good to see you, Craig. Greg got off
the stoop. I think the last time we saw him
he was sitting on the steps.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Craig, let me say something that is somewhat the antithesis
to this podcast, the antithesis to our upbringing and the
antithesis to what we echo a lot of times in
our rabble rousing Matthew chair flipping over shaking, the kind
of orbit that we live in, and my conversations with
my children, as I would advise anybody to have, are
(06:58):
very very selfish when dealing with law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Your number one priorities should be to come home. Period.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
I am overly focused on my children and having interactions
with law enforcement number one that allows them safety to
come home, and number two transparency. I know a lot
of times when people interact with law enforcement, the first
they didn't want to say is fuck you. I'm an American,
this is wrong, this is unconstitutional. You know you're already
(07:29):
agitating the situation, you're escalating. Ain't nothing about this de escalation.
Don't get your hands on me. I'm an American. Blah
blah blah blah blah. And I know that people find
some level of disappointment in these remarks because what we're
seeing in our streets right now is anything but saying,
is anything but sanctified, is anything but constitutional. But I'm
(07:51):
very selfish when it comes to my children, and I
tell them all the time my number one priority is
them For them to come home. The best advice my
dad ever gave me was when the police get behind you.
This is a very South Carolina thing. It's not necessarily
applies in big cities, but it may. We have a
lot of dark roads, you know. I was driving a
Chrysler three hundred, and you know, every time you get
(08:12):
on a dark road, police get behind you. My dad said,
call nine one one immediately. So I would call nine
one one. I would let them know that I'm driving,
you have an officer behind me, and I'm going to
a welled area, and I would pull up at a
gas station or something like that. One, so they knew
I wasn't fleeing. Two, so they knew I wasn't a
problem in three, so that I could do the number
one goal, a priority that my parents taught me, which
(08:35):
was to come home. I think there's a place for protests.
I think there's a place for coming home.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
You know that piece, that last piece you mentioned on
the on the dark roads. My parents said the same thing,
and it was except they said slow down to a
slow that is still moving and turn your hazard lights
on so that they know you're not trying to flee,
that you're not trying to escape you and go somewhere.
(09:00):
And but Kari, I don't think you are out of
the normal. When you say your expectation is selfish, Craig,
asking this question is asking for selfish reasons. Anything that
I say in offering would be from a selfish perspective.
In fact, I was going to say, first off, Craig,
he has kid, you know, has a son who he
(09:21):
ought to be teaching us the lessons of what he said.
You know, when he said fifteen year old, I almost
shuddered because I'm thinking, godly, I got an eleven year
old boy and girl, and I don't want them to
be fifteen yet, you know, And I'm looking down the
pipe and knowing that that's coming. And for me, all
of these talks, this one and then the range of
others are always being balanced around not trying to rob
(09:46):
them of their kid ears, their youth, the stuff that
white kids get without question, right, they can play with
toy guns and water guns and all those kind of things.
But I'm like you, we don't have them in our house.
And if you bring one, you you know something, just
like you don't bring white barbies to my daughter forgets.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Oh please, God, so.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I get most frustrated by the world we live in
when I think about all of the innocence that get
stripped from our babies, from our kids. I take my
kids to the park on the weekends a lot. We
just was there this weekend at the park and again
on MLK Day, and I'm remembering distinctly this one neighborhood park.
(10:36):
It's a great part, very wonderfully tried, and that's something
you look for when you outside in the summer time
in Florida. But it's also populated by a lot of
white families and older white folks who walk in the area.
And I remember showing up. We were clearly not of
the neighborhood. We had come into the neighborhood driven and
(10:56):
kids get out of the car, and as we're walking
up to the park, you know, people start to pause
and they turn and for different reasons, they're looking at us, obviously,
and these two white women who were walking, they come
to a stop and they lean down and they are
asking my kids their names and where do they want
to do when they grow up, and obviously these cute
and oh she's just adorable, and all this kind of thing,
(11:17):
and all I could think during that interaction was they're
a durable now, and I'm just curious in your mind,
when do they become a threat?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
When do you cross the street? Which or purse?
Speaker 1 (11:27):
When do you lock your door when you see them
on approach?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
And I got it angry.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I sort of had into indignantness, and I think it
probably showed in my interaction then with the two women afterwards,
says all I kept thinking about was when do my
beautiful boys become.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
A threat to you?
Speaker 1 (11:44):
When do you call the police on them because they're
in the wrong place, in the wrong neighborhood. They don't
live here and they're loitering. When do they stop being
the kids who are just here for play and now
they are a dangerous element to society at least through
your life ends? And I cried so hard in the car,
(12:05):
you know, they started playing ball and I kind of
went back and I can still see them, but I
was really angry by it because and this was stuff
was going on in the country as well, and I
think that further animated me around, like, right, they're beautiful boys,
and they're going to be beautiful boys when they're eleven
and when they're fifteen, and when they're on their way
(12:28):
into adulthood and so on and so forth. But I
also know that society is going to at some point
determine that their lives aren't worth what yours are, that
they are, by their very presence, a danger, and it
terrifies me. I know where we live, I know the
neighborhood we live in, I know what I say to
(12:50):
my kids about beating dark home. In fact, they don't
even live our street to play with nobody and those
kinds of protective things. They're not yet at the age
where I've gotten to have a real, real uh sit
down on some on a couple of issue areas around
law enforcement and racism, really racism, the structure of it
(13:13):
and how it shows up, because I've been battling with
preserving a certain set of innocence that for just a
little longer, and I hope and I don't think it's
in a debilitating way, but it is in a way
that is like, yeah, I do have to make sure
my kid comes home and that they say that they're safe,
(13:34):
and my wife and I do those things to try
to curate that for them.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
But I also want my.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Kids to still believe that their interactions with in certain
ways and in places. Is is as innocent is? I
think it is at the moment, but that I also
know will change.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
When we were doing State of the People, met the
mother of a slain black man at the hands of police.
Her name is Paulina Bryan, and Paulina started to idate
around creating an app when her son continued to be
pulled over by law enforcement or some system, and in
(14:20):
twenty sixteen her son was killed by law enforcement, and
she continued to develop what is now called Life Lawyer app.
Meeting her at State of the People was a game
changer for me because you realize just how often black
folks have to turn tragedy into some type of prevention
(14:41):
mechanism for others, for our other folks. And I think
now what I'm wrestling with, honestly, y'all, is as an
attorney watching constitutional right after constitutional right being violated and
trampled on by ice. You know, we talk about does
the talk still work? Yes, you should still have to talk.
We have to also brace our family members for me,
(15:03):
my godsends, for you, all your children, and my god daughter.
We have to brace them for the fact that you
can say all the right things have the right tone,
you know, approach correctly, and still have issue. You can
use technology to your benefit in your favor to record
the thing. You can be an off duty police officer
and they slap your phone out of your hand as
(15:25):
we as we heard in our main episode. But we
also have to not just take law and the law
into our own hands, but we also have to rely
on our elected representatives to have our backs. Corey Booker
recently introduced two measures, and I want to roll this
clip because this may be the only thing that keeps
us alive in interactions with ICs.
Speaker 7 (15:47):
We must do more. The tragic death of Renee Good
has brought into clear spotlights so many of the things
that Trump administration is doing to make our communities less safe.
But one of the most alarming crises are issues of
training and accountability standards for ice officers. The Trump administration
(16:08):
has cut the training down from five months to about
a month and a half. They have eliminated age requirements
and are hiring recruits as young as eighteen years old.
They're putting people into training before their background checks are
even complete, and so when you see people cut corners,
people die. I'm continuing to lead new legislation that will
(16:29):
bring further high professional standards and accountability to ice officials.
We must also set minimum training standards. We must ban
the hiring of anyone affiliated with hate groups. We must
hold agency leaders accountable. We must require every federal officer
to wear a body worn camera during public facing enforcement actions,
(16:51):
and require that footage be preserved so that the truth
can't be hidden or destroyed. What Donald Trump is doing
is undercutting the stre of our law enforcement. He is
diminishing and diluting standards. He is taking actions that are
wholly unacceptable to the safety of our nation.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
So this might be one of the only things that
we have to rely upon. We have to hope that
both of these bills, the FLESH Act Federal Law Enforcement
Standards and Accountability Act and Focus Federal Officer Camera Usage
for Safety Act, can get to the center.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Face stuff is in there too, the masks.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
And yeah well, and as we know, Jasmine Crockett introduced
the Clear Act for that. But we have to hope
that the Senate will take up these measures, and then
the House will take up these measures, and then that
the President finds it in his heart to sign these
measures since he is now acknowledging that ICE has made mistakes,
but the question remains what parts of the talk are enforceable?
(17:51):
Right We have always had rogue officers completely disregard when
we are asserting our rights, relying on you know, goods
legal doctrine in these interactions. But there are people all
the time who abuse their power, and so we have
to figure out what is our way around that, And
I don't know the answer. I think we can raise
(18:12):
legal funds till we're blowing the face, but these we
still have to rely on people operating from goodwill and
in integrity to do the right thing. And that is
a tall order right now, given their limited training, given
the the you know, the visceral response that people who
look different than them, who are other than them, the
fact that the Proud Boys founder could be affiliated with
(18:33):
Owl's ICE, the fact that some January six ers are
part of our part of ICE, and the fact that
border patrol anywhere near the border in Minnesota. Like I just,
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
I agree with all of that, And I appreciate Corey
for talking about the legislative action that must be taken.
He's right about that, but I mean, people are being
drug out of their houses right now. People are being
brutalized right now. And as you eloquently pointed out, kind
of the conjunction junction of this what's your function Angela,
(19:07):
like you talked about the legislative process of this happening,
we're talking about we're talking about that level of accountability
coming in maybe two years if at all, like Donald
Trump's gonna sign it. I think that one of the
things that Corey Booker is also highlighting though, which I
take from that is the import of one local elected officials,
(19:27):
Mary Mariotti, who is the district attorney out there, employing
her local police to arrest these individuals who they seek
doing wrong, committing crimes. And two elections in November matter
more than these may be the most I mean, we
say it all the time, Andrew. What do people hate
when we say when we talk about elections, this is
the most important.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
It is what The states keep getting higher, The states
keep getting higher, and you know what Ice is about
you with their budgetary expansion through Trump's and the Republic
looks big, beautiful bill become the largest law enforcement agency
in domestic territory in the United States collectively. We already
(20:10):
know right now in Minnesota, they are three times the
size of all of the municipal law enforcement agencies that
cover these areas combined three times, and unfortunately that three
times is not an expansion on the law enforcement presence
of that area. They now have become the problem to
(20:30):
local law enforcement. Law enforcement having to respond to scenes
of havoc that have been created by other law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I'm not a.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Big abolished person, and I won't use that language here,
but as we know it ICE agents and the agency
right now that has been developed under the Homeland security model,
the Homeland Secretary after nine to eleven does not work.
(21:05):
This is one of those examples of where the wheel
has to be broken. I am not saying that there
should not be immigration enforcement in the country, but it
has to be reimagined because what has happened in this case,
this is not an exception. That's seven out of ten
of their interactions and then they're taken into custody. Are
(21:26):
people who are legally here, who are not criminals. If
seven out of ten is a fail, then yo, goddamn
whole thing is a fail. You don't pass the class
with a thirty percent, you don't. So if it which
tells me that this then is not the exception.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
This is the rule for that department, this.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Institution, and so the institution is a failure and it
must be leveled. We can be inventive about what immigration
enforcement within our borders looks like. We can be hash
standards and be tough on all those things and follow
the process and have a great old bill that gets
to that. But this agency does not work for the
(22:17):
American people. Seven eras out of ten attempts is problematic,
and that is systematic. That is not an exception. That
no longer is the exception. The exception for ICE agents
and their record. The exception is getting it right. If
(22:37):
they get it right, that is the exception. And that's
that's too big a problem.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
No, I agree with you, and I know, I know
we about to get out of here in a minute.
But I would just say I'm glad you couch it
the way you did, because all three of us are four,
you know, making sure that we have some sembilance of
order within our borders and not having open borders and
all of those things and having immigration enforcement. I do
want to hear somebody say that one of money has
said it. I think it was, Uh, what's what's my
(23:03):
friend's name with the black name from Illinois? The congressman,
what she got the black name?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Is she black? She white? Oh? From Chicago?
Speaker 5 (23:15):
Anyway, what I what I what I'm saying is that
we should, uh, we should make sure that we impeach Christie.
Now That's all I wanted to say on the way out.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, yeah, I think impeachment of NOME is symbolically a thing.
But I just I want to admonish our Congress and
the Democrats who I hope will be in charge very soon.
That first of all, if if that Hefa is still around,
then it's already been way.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Too long, all right. So this is this is a
this is a this is.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
A in your dreams while you sleeping and on your
break thing.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
To do get rid of her.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
But the problem is getting rid of her does not
abolish the problem.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
That does not get rid of the problem.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
The problem, as has been exposed for everybody to see,
is that the agency as it is now established and
is operating does not work for the American people's interests.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
And it must be leveled.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
And we will go anew and think of create a
new around an agency that is in service to our
interests to protect our borders, to enforce our immigration laws,
and to serve the interests of the American people. But
as it is established right now, it does not work.
It has to go. Anything less than that is not
(24:36):
a capitulation. It is a complete and total surrender on
law and order in America.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Has to go.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
So what I'm saying now, we gotta go. Yeah. So
thanks for hanging in there with us, Craig, Thanks again
for the question. You see, you set us up for
other things, and so apologies in advance that we tear
it along and tear it off.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
But thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
It's a meaningful one and I hope people are thinking
meaningfully about it in their own homes and families and
can share your experiences share them with us. We'd love
to play your videos back around what you're doing, what
the talk looks like, and whether or not you think.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
It still works in today's day and age. Welcome out, y'all.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
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