April 29, 2026 • 44 mins
When it debuted in 2023, the women-centric support series F1 Academy (F1A) was branded by Formula 1 and the greater racing ecosystem as a giant step forward for visibility and opportunity in motorsports for women. It even came with its own digital broadcast channels, major corporate sponsors, and attention from F1 teams. Three years later though, the promising championship has drummed up more questions than answers. Is it actually helping its participants level up in their careers long-term? Does anything about this series give these teen girls and young women the skills needed to transition to other racing series? And who's actually getting all of this corporate money?
This go-around on No Grip, Lily talks to Katherine Legge, the iconic racer and Throttle Therapy podcast host who's taken part in what feels like almost every motorsports series under the sun and has plenty to say about what's missing from conversations about F1A, sexism, visibility, and mentorship.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yo, Hi, Lily, We're going to talk about another topic
that I feel like you're going to be playing just
a tiny bit of ketchup on. We're talking about women.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Now, is this topic? I like?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
No, in all seriousness, I know you're excited about this.
I'm excited about this.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
We have an important episode today.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yeah, it's a good episode. It's important episode to set
this up for listeners. The topic of women in motorsports,
or even women in Formula one is incredibly broad, right,
so a figure given the fact that Susie Wolfe's memoir
came out this week here in the States, it makes
the most sense to use the Formula one Academy, which
(00:37):
she's in charge of, as the jumping off point. So
the Formula one Academy, it's also called F one Academy
or F one A. It is essentially a women centric
motorsports series. It's equivalent to a Formula four race. This
is kind of one of the bottom rungs of the
junior formula, and the idea is that there's a lot
of issues with the pipeline of how women come up
(00:58):
from karting and into the junior formula and make their
way up the ranks. To something like F one or
into other upper echelons of motor racing, and this is
providing a valuable opportunity for that. So I thought, Hey,
Susie's memoirs out perfect opportunity for us to talk about
the very large and very thorny topic of women in
(01:21):
Formula one and motorsports at large at this juncture.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Or lack thereof or lack thereof.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yes, a hefty topic which we're gonna solve sexism and
misogyny in like forty minutes.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Let's go, no time to lose.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I will also say too, this episode is going to
be a broader look at women in motorsports. We won't
be diving into like ultra ultraspecifics of Susie's memoir if
you really want that book club feel. I will be
breaking down Susie's memoir with my good friend India Porter
in an upcoming bonus episode, so stay tuned for that.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I'm still in the middle, So no spoilers, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
No spoilers. But first, before we get to the specifics
of Susie's book, in this bonus episode, we are going
to tackle women in motorsports. You know, one of the
big issues I've noticed when it comes to conversations about
women in F one or women in motorsports at large,
is that there is a real reticence to name some
(02:21):
of the other uncomfortable truths that come along with that,
and instead there can be sort of an opting into
like a girl Boss narrative where you know, any form
of critique is like setting women back, and that everything
like that happens to women is you know, ultimately a positive,
when again there are just some some contradictions that can
exist there. So, for instance, Susie Wolf herself, who's at
(02:43):
the top of this ladder or this series, she was
at one point an accomplished and talented racing driver in
her own right, and also her position as the managing
director of the Formula one Academy is massively helped by
the fact that she is married to Mercedes team principal
Toto Wolf Right, he has access to certain connections and
(03:04):
finances that she does not. I will also say all
three of the F one Academy's winners from its first
three seasons have gotten things like a test drive here,
and they are gotten to take part in other portions
of other motorsports series. But there hasn't really been a
meaningful progression for them up the junior formula system or
up to other big name series, Like you're not seeing
(03:26):
these women suddenly racing in the Indy five hundred or
something like that. Yo, it probably doesn't surprise you to
learn I've never stepped foot in a race car.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
I keep trying to convince you to go karting with me,
but I guess you're scared.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
I'm a girl who loves loves the speed limit. I
love to have my music on and just be cruising.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
What we call an armchair expert.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yes, I am an armchair expert. Today we have someone
who not only comes from a place of actual experience
in a race car, she's actually an icon of the sport.
And on top of all of that is a woman
with actual opinions on and what would it take to
have better female representation across all motorsports, but especially in
(04:05):
something like Formula one? And where is F one Academy?
Maybe a help versus a hindrance?
Speaker 4 (04:12):
Catherine, how are you? I'm good, babe, how are you?
I'm hanging in there on a Friday, I know right?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Enter racing driver Catherine Legg, who not only comes from
the same generation of racers as Susie Wolf, but also
has a number of evolving, nuanced thoughts on the pros
and cons of a women centric racing series like F
one Academy and what's actually needed to get women where
they want to go in motorsports, including in Formula one.
Catherine's list of accomplishments and racing series and championships and
(04:41):
all that is absurdly long, but a small sampling of
her bondifides. She holds the record for the fastest qualifying
effort for a woman in Indy five hundred history. She
actually became the first woman to win a major open
wheel race in North America, and that was all the
way back in two thousand and five. She has, yeah,
aside from F one, pretty much every racing series under
(05:03):
the sun, be it NASCAR, DTM, she did race and
some of the junior formula back in the day. Jesus, Catherine, like,
you are everywhere around the globe racing all the time.
The other thing I will note she is actually sponsored
by Elf Cosmetics, and when she signed with the company
several years ago, it was a huge deal because it
marked this major shift in how beauty brands interact with
(05:26):
motorsports at large, and it was really cool to see
her speak so much about hey, like women can contain multitudes,
and I'm a fierce racing driver. And also I do
love a good lengthening mascara, which her and I actually
discussed on her show Throttle Therapy a few weeks before
we recorded this conversation. So before we get to present day,
(05:47):
can you just talk about how you even got into
motorsports originally?
Speaker 4 (05:50):
I have to take you way way back, many years ago.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
I was a kid when I first found R I
was nine years old, and it was purely by accident
and happenstance. My family went on vacation holiday as we
would call it to Spain, and my dad and my
(06:16):
uncle had to go on the carts, you know, like
the fun cuts, not the serious carts. And I was
not tall enough or big enough, or they wouldn't let
me because I wasn't old enough. I remember being massively
upset by this, because as a kid, I was very
much a adrenaline junkie, tomboy daddy's girl. I was left
(06:39):
with my dad. I don't know of a better way
to say that, but my sister had a hernia when
she was a baby, so my mom spent a lot
of time in the hospital with her, and my dad
had to look after me. So he would do things
with me like ride on Mormo because we had a
lot of grass that needed to cut, and so he
(06:59):
would have me, as a two three year old, like
do stuff like that with him. So I think it
programmed me into a thinking he was awesome and wanting
to be just like my dad in every aspect of
my life. And also like love doing typically what's known
as boys stuff right like working on cars, riding on lawnmowers,
(07:20):
cutting down trees. I was exposed to that side rather
than playing with dollies and stuff. So nine year old
Catherine wanted to jump off the highest diving board associated
more with boys of my age than girls of my
age because I wanted to do all the cool, dangerous,
(07:40):
adrenaline junkie stuff and was devastated that I couldn't join
my dad and my uncle in the go cuts. We
get back to England and there's an advert in our
local paper for our local go cut track.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
He went along me, being daddy's girl, went with him.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Realized that I was big enough to do the kid
cart version of this nagged him incessantly for the next
gosh six months, I would say, until Christmas rolled around.
And then for my Christmas present, I found a go
kart and garage, and so he had started racing go
kartside had started racing gokuts. He lasted maybe six races
(08:21):
and then quit because he said, what if he got
hurt and there was nobody there to look after me.
And I was super fast because I weighed probably like
eighty pounds, soaking wet, and I had no fear or
anything at that age. So we both found a combined
love of this competition, in this racing. So it became
(08:43):
not only a thing that we did together, but this
entire focus of our existence and our lives, to the
detriment of my mom and my sister honestly, because we
would watch Grand PRI's and be obsessed with Formula one,
and we would go away racing every weekend and any
spare cash, Like my dad gave up smoking so that
(09:05):
he could afford to buy me new Gokut tires, which
was good for his health and good for my speed.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
That's like a reverse tobacco sponsorship.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I know.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
It was the beginning of a path in my life
that I wanted to follow and I found enjoyment from.
And I feel incredibly lucky hashtag burst that I found it,
because a lot of people don't find that thing that
makes them want to get out of bed in the
morning and that they think about and that they eat, sleep, drink, breathe,
(09:37):
whatever it may be. And I had this passion for
racing and not cars, by the way, Like I'm not
a car now at all. I'm not really that interested
in different cars. I kind of am to a certain extent.
But it's the competition. It's the competition with yourself. It's
the adrenaline. It's the fact that you never get it
perfect and you're always learning. How much of it's natural talent,
(10:00):
how much of his learned talent? Like can you study
too much and then overanalyze and then lay stuff down
because you're overthinking about it and it's all mental. And
it's like all of these things that I love about
it so much, which I guess is why I'm here
talking to you today.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Noah, it's just I mean, I feel like some of
the people I know who are the most passionate about
certain things. Yeah, they found it through a happy accident,
which I always love. Can you describe you're getting behind
the wheel of any vehicle? What is that feeling of adrenalineline? Like,
what is that like to be in control of like
this beast of a machine. And you know, I will
(10:35):
say I am not an adrenaline junkie. I will probably
never be driving fast ever in my life. So I'm
always really really curious when I get the chance to
talk to actual racers about like, what is that it
that keeps you coming back?
Speaker 4 (10:48):
I don't know that I can put it into layman terms.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
It just has this energy about it that you can't
you have to experience for yourself. It's like doing the
scariest thing that you force yourself to do because you
know that you want to do it, Like if you've
ever been skydiving, or if you've ever gone down a
slide on a roller coaster or anything like that. Like
it's that level of intense focus and anticipation.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Because I'm never scared or anything like that. It's more.
Speaker 5 (11:24):
Every bone in your body and every molecule of you,
every cell is ready. There's nothing else that you're thinking
about anything more than perfectly executing. But you also know
that you can't consciously think about it, so you have
to let your subconscious take over. Otherwise your conscious mind's
not fast enough to keep up, so your subconscious deals
(11:45):
with it. An example of this would be you drive
home and you don't remember the last ten minutes of driving.
You're like, I got home. I don't remember driving home.
Say the same kind of deal, different scales, same kind
of deal, But the nerves and the anticipation is what
really makes you hone in and makes you just laser focus,
(12:08):
and that feeling is addictive.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
It's like a happy pill.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
And did you, from a young age have a certain
championship or series that you really wanted to racing? Because
I think of like Susie Wolf in her book, for instance,
is like F one, Like whoa, But you know, I
don't know if you had something similar I did.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
I wanted to be a Formula one driver, desperately wants
to be a Formula one driver.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
That was my goal.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
My parents instilled the belief in me that you could
be anything that you wanted to be. It doesn't matter
where you came from or what the opportunities were like.
If you want something badly enough, you will find a
way to make it happen, and we weren't wealthy, so
I had to like try and persuade people to give
me drives here, there and everywhere. I did some Formula
forward stuff that we ran ourselves badly. I would take
(12:55):
any opportunity to this day that was thrown at me
to drive of a Rasca, and I desperately wanted to
make it to Formula one.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
I was misguided, like we didn't have any experience.
Speaker 5 (13:08):
All these F one drivers, like their dads are in it,
or they have these managers.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
We didn't have any of that.
Speaker 5 (13:13):
We just kind of did it on a wing and
a prayer and the belief that if you wanted something
badly enough, you could make it happen. And then I
came to America and went the champ Car route and
ended up finding IndyCar and wanting that to be my home.
And I still have a obsession with the Any five hundred.
(13:34):
But then I went and did a sports cars and
then that became an obsession. And so it changed very
quickly from I want to be an F one driver too.
I want to have a career in driving, and I
want to make a difference in that career in driving
and have people remember me in the right way. I
wanted other young girls to be able to look at
me and be proud of that. Wanted my dad to
(13:57):
look at me and be proud of that. In hindsight,
probably I could have done things a lot differently, but
I tested a Formula Wonka.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
I tested the Minati in two thousand and six.
Speaker 6 (14:08):
First, we'll have to see how she does on her test.
I have to say she has done well so far,
but obviously Formula one is completely different to what she
has done before. Physically it will be a radical change,
particularly to what a woman.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Is used to.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
And honestly, had Paul startad owned the team, I think
how itu have had a good shot.
Speaker 6 (14:28):
Catherine is sure that she will realize her goal's agenda
not being an issue.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
However, they sent it to Red Bull and Helmut Marco
was like, hell, no, we don't want her.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Oh my god, that was my f wonderings up and smoke.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
First of all, we have joked on the show about
how Helmet Marco seems to subsist on sucking the life
force out of many a young driver. So perhaps I'm
not saying that it's still a bummer, but perhaps maybe,
but a little lucky. You seem to be fully intact,
which cannot be said for some of these other drivers
who went through the junior program at Red Bull.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
But what is the.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Process of even getting that type of test right? What
are the rungs that you have to go through in general,
the hoops you have to jump through to get that.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
I think it's about momentum and perception. I was very
lucky as well, and I have the right people on
my side fight in my corner. I had the gumption
to approach Kevin Calcoven, who was in England buying Cosworth
from Ford, to give me an opportunity in Formula Atlantic,
which is now the same as Indie Lights, and I
(15:29):
went out and I won the first race from mid
pack after I'd stuck it in the wall in qualifying.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Look at her puffed the fist as she earned it.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
One of the most remarkable performances we have seen in
the history of the Toyota Atlantic Championship.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
What a day for the team, for Captain leg Ad.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
For the series.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
I think that that turned heads and people were already like, okay,
who is this girl? And then I went and won
another couple of races. I finished on the podium a bunch.
I finished that in the championship in my first year
of full time racing in a big car that I
had never experienced on tracks that I'd never driven before.
I mean it was my first street race as well,
and so everybody was like, oh, this is cool, and
(16:10):
it was positive momentum. I think it was the perception
that Okay, there could be a chick that could drive here,
and the momentum of like, keep building on those results
and keep it going. Like if your career stools, which
I feel like mine is done on a couple of
occasions now, then the perception is that you are done
(16:35):
and forgotten about. What people don't realize and are shocked
to hear and don't believe either, is eighty five percent
of the drivers the top eighty five percent of the
Top Series. They're all really really freaking good, and any
single one of those could be made into a start
(16:57):
if they have the right team, the right car, the
right engineers, and the right opportunity and sponsorship and money
and everything behind them. And it's funny because I was
having this conversation with a friend of mine the other day,
which was could you put somebody who was a really
good driver in a shitty car and have them make
the difference. And could you put a really bad driver
(17:21):
in a good car and have them make a difference?
Like where would that crossover be? And I said, the
people at the back are working so much harder than
the people at the front. And I know this because
I've driven both, right, and I've driven both at Indy
and I was given a super great car with Sam
Schmid in twenty thirteen, and I just remember thinking, this
(17:44):
is awesome, this is easy, Like I can just drive
this thing and it's easy.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
I'm not fighting it.
Speaker 5 (17:50):
And then I've driven bad cars where you're fighting for
your life just to try and get the best out
of that car. And I honestly think I think that
people don't see that the team and the car make
up for more.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
Of the results than the driver does.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
For the most part, all the drives are really really good,
and the it is the car making the difference.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
At what point.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Two do you start to notice that perhaps your path
a variety of reasons, including maybe because you're a woman,
might have to just look a little different than these
like rich guys who can just kind of come in
you know, fit in with a boy's club, have the connections?
Have you know billionaire fathers who can just bestow all
(18:33):
sorts of money upon them, Like, what does that end
up looking like for you?
Speaker 5 (18:36):
I mean, I think that's life, right. I am not
trust one baby. Unfortunately, my dad also wishes that I was,
because that means that he would be wealthy. But I
saw him work really hard and struggle and fight on
his own for his business.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
He built houses.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
He's seventy three years old and he's just doing his
last one now, Like that that's his work ethic.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
He's awesome.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
So I learned from him, as we do the people
that surround us, that not everything's equal and it's not
going to be easy, and if you want something, you
have to work harder than the next person. And also
I learn at a very early age that if everything
is handed to you on a plate like that, it
doesn't mean as much. So in a way, I feel
(19:20):
fortunate that I'm forced to work for it because every victory,
every drive that I get, every opportunity that I'm forced
to take in a shitty car. I'm sorry for the
bad language is a blessing because it means so much
more when you achieve that thing afterwards than if it's
just an easy thing to do. You know, like your
(19:41):
dad goes here, Catherine, I got your ride with McLaren
Like cool, Okay, that's awesome, But you didn't put in
the work for that. So your self worth is not
the same, oh.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
For sure, just a very I think, a very different
mentality as far as life is concerned.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
You could feel sorry for yourself and think, oh woe
with me, I don't have three Ferraris and six time
Aginis sat in the garage, or you can be like
I can get that for myself and feel feel good
about life or whatever your goals. Maybe maybe you are
from a ton of money and your goals are different
(20:18):
than winning IndyCar race.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Maybe you know you're a good person and care.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
About real world stuff and not about going really fast
and around circles.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Act.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
There's many it's a spectrum.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
One thing I've always wanted to ask a race driver
is just you know, there are different sports where you
don't need to be too intelligent. You can just kind
of be physically talented, you know, run fast or jump
very high. But from kind of like just being a
motorsports fan and listening to you now listening to drivers talk,
it seems like this is a sport where you need
(20:54):
more than just physical talent and instincts and stuff. You
need to have really high intelligence and mental capacity just
to drive these cars. Because it's not just about physical ability.
It's also you know, being able to focus on several
things simultaneously talk to your team while also you know,
being at the edge of your physical ability.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
And I think it's a mix of things.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
Especially with the hybrid systems and everything that come along,
you end up being engineers with all the bells and
whistles and knobs and everything else.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
I think it's a spectrum.
Speaker 5 (21:25):
There are some drivers who are really brave and have
a certain level of natural ability that can throw a
lop together and don't know how they did it. And
then there's the real, studied, learned drivers. And I think
the ones with natural ability that also put in the
work are the ones that are really good. And I
think the intelligent drivers are the ones that end up
doing well in certain scenarios because you're having to think
(21:48):
about more things than just the driving. You're kind of
playing chess in your mind about which lane is going
to go and you're listening to your spottery and you're thinking, okay,
but if that lane goes and here's a toya and
he's also a tootur, and so I need to hook
up with this Chevy. But this Chevy guy doesn't really
rate me. So am I better off dropping back and
doing this? And so meanwhile, like all of that's going on,
(22:09):
You're doing two hundred miles an hour and your spotter
is in your ears telling you where to place the
car and everything. So you have to be able to
control your emotions because driving is an extremely emotional sport.
And some advice given to me when I first made
the switch to sports cars was be a robot.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
That was Andy Lally, And I was like, what do
you mean be a robot?
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Because I would get I rate, I'd get pissed off,
somebody hit me, somebody did this, and I'd be on
the radio and I'd be bitching about it.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
You're a hothead on the comms.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
I what I used to be not anymore, Not anymore,
because I recognize it in myself and I am like,
this isn't getting me anywhere. It's actually like to my detriment.
So I'm not gonna let them win by having them
rile me up. I'll deal with it later. I mean
sometimes it still gets to me. I'm not perfect, but
(22:59):
for the most but you have to be smart enough
to recognize that in yourself and then again and control
your emotions. You have to be able to think, and
you also have to be able to balance the self
preservation kind of balls to the wall thing. When you're eighteen,
you're not scared of anything, and you're like, you crash
a lot more than when you're thirty, right because you
(23:23):
learn what.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
That limit of that car is and you have a
healthy respect for it.
Speaker 5 (23:27):
And so when you get a little bit of experience,
then you realize, Okay, I'm not going to push it
totally over the limit like I just did. Or it's
like a molding process where you still need to be
just as brave as you were when you're eighteen, but
you just need to be a whole lot smarter about it.
So there's so many things that go into driving, and
(23:49):
I think a lot of people think that it's so
easy because they drive their car and it's nothing like that.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I'm like, we're going to jump for a quick ad break,
but stick around because when we get back. We're going
to dive into the question of Formula one Academy and
women in motorsports.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
What it seems to have done is stunt the growth
in a competitive manner.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
And we're back with Catherine Legg to switch gears here
to the topic of like women in motorsports And I
think you know, this is an F one culture podcast,
so obviously f what Academy comes up. Something else I've
been thinking about a lot, especially this year, is it
feels like there's more and more campaigning for women to
be kind of vaguely involved in different series. But I
(24:38):
think that there's this underlying question of actual progress that
keeps coming up. As a woman who's been around for
a bit, has had a lot of success, has gotten
to see and do so much, how are you feeling
about the state of this pipeline for women at this
point and what it's morphed into over the course of
your career.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
I'm disappointed. I think it's messed up.
Speaker 5 (25:01):
I look back twenty years, which is how long, thank god,
my career has lasted so far, and I look at
when I came into it and kind of hit the
scene in two thousand and five in America, and Danika
was there before us. You had if you take it
way way back, you had Janet Guthrie, nin Sent James,
(25:22):
Sarah Fisher, Danica Me. Basically, that's really the crux of
the ones that were taken seriously, and you take it
to I don't know, the early kind of era, there
were a good six of us doing the Indy five hundred,
(25:45):
you know, racing professionally, being taken seriously as professional drivers,
regardless of gender, and that had kind of been growing
since the Janet Lynn days and company.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Well, the first lady ever qualify at Indianapolis. Gentlemen, start
your red drums.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
Janet opened the doors. Lyn crashed the ceiling down, broke
into the door.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I don't listen to people who say I can't do it.
Doesn't penetrate the ear drums.
Speaker 5 (26:22):
And then you had people like Sarah who was awesome
in certain aspects like super awesome. And obviously Danika did
very well. Danika did it, Danik away, why don't we
do seriously?
Speaker 4 (26:36):
You did the same thing in practice. You did the
same thing.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
You get out my left rear and it spends me out.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
You did the same thing.
Speaker 5 (26:43):
Then you had the Me and Simona kind of like
we were trying just to not play on the fact
that we were female and just try and be taken
seriously as race car drivers so that it wasn't a gimmick,
so that we weren't looked at differently to anybody else.
I've change my opinion on that slightly since Elf came
on board and I was able to be more authentic
(27:06):
and feminine and say, Okay, I can be a girl
and I can still be a badass, and so I
don't have to like make myself smaller and pretend that
I'm a dude.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
Not that I ever did that, but you know, you
know what I mean, like to fit into this mold.
Speaker 5 (27:19):
But I would always ask myself what would Jensen Button
do because he was the era before me, when I
saw him growing up through kating and making it to everyone,
and I wanted to kind of be like the girl
version of that. And there was a lot of female
talent knocking on the doors. They were being given opportunity
because it was still different, and I think it went
(27:40):
against us as much as it went for us. I think,
honestly nowadays it goes against us more than it goes
for us, because it's not new anymore, and it has
been turned into something that has left a bad taste
in very many people's mouths. It's kind of been forced
upon them when it's not in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
And I know this.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
I don't want this to turn into a DEI discussion
in any way, shape or form, because I think a
lot of us have got their own merit regardless of gender. However,
I think the inception of the W Series and then
Formula One kind of killing that and doing their own
thing with the F one Academy has very much limited
the women with potential in the racing world. If you
(28:25):
look at it, ten years ago, there was a handful
of us at the top level of racing. Now there
isn't and I put a lot of that down to
they got siphoned off to the shiny thing that is
the F one Academy. And let me preface this by
the way, and that I am very very pro women
(28:46):
like I have tried to do all women teams to
try and showcase talent to get them opportunities to move on.
I've always been very vocal about the fact they don't
want it to be a gimmick. I just want it
to be more visible and showcased so that other young
women may have the opportunities in good equipment. So very
this is not a knock in any way, shape or
(29:06):
form on any women. And I also love women's sports,
and I think women's sports have a place in sports
where women should be segregated because it comes down to
physical ability. Racing is not one of those sports that
we cannot compete equally as women in an immense spot.
There's no reason to segregate us. I don't think that
(29:27):
we need a women only race car series. If we did,
and it was a women's Formula one series, then that
would be a whole different ballgame to the F one Academy,
which maybe the anticipation was that it would morph into
that in some way. I don't know that I would
before that either. I mean, I'm so torn, and this
(29:50):
is why I'm squirrelling on this subject, and I apologize, Lily.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
You have to bear with me.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
You're still getting more of an opinion, like I said,
than like ninety nine percent of people I've talked to,
including those who ten have opinions on other things, but
get to this topic and then are like, oh no,
like it is uncomfortable because multiple things are true at
once and they're also uncomfortable things like and it's not
necessarily I think it's one of those those discussions it's
like important to have, but also to know that there's
(30:15):
not necessarily a singular correct answer, right, and when you
pull on one thread, like twelve more come undone.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Right.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
As you're talking, I'm thinking about the fact too that
a huge, huge part of what you're saying is there
was a lot of camaraderie around having a group of
women all kind of coming up together. And what's lost
when you kind of put all the pressure on you know,
someone like a Jamie Chadwick who won the w series,
you know the entirety of its existence, and then you know,
there's all this pressure on her to make it and
what happens when she doesn't, or you know, for any
(30:43):
number of reasons, when that dream dies with like a
singular person moving to a different series, or you know,
life happens whatever.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
Yeah, I am one of those people who's so torn
on it because they think when I was talking Toxseusy
about it early on, this is many years gay. The
miss of it was to give these girls an opportunity
and a springboard, and to a certain extent, it does that.
It increases their following, it makes them more visible, it
(31:11):
makes them more attractive to sponsors. We'll get to sponsors
in a minute. But what it seems to have also
done is stunt their growth in a competitive kind of manner.
You've got a handful maybe maybe two or three that
I look at that are doing other things at the
same time, meaning like F four or you know, some
(31:34):
European series, which I think they absolutely need to be doing.
I think if you don't race against the best, you
are never going to be the best. You can't expect
some club racer who's racing against average drivers to then
go and compete on a Formula one grid. And that's
basically what it is. Let's be honest. I think if
it was used as a springboard and they just did
a year, or they did a couple of years and
(31:56):
then that led to something else, maybe maybe not. But
what it doesn't do in any way, shape or form
is prepare them to be as good as the next
F two driver that's going to make it to F one,
And so I.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
Think they need to change that.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
And it's like, yeah, they get a lot of followers
from it, great, but do they get the skills that
they need to be able to be competitive in the
equivalent mixed series? And that's what really kind of chafes
me because I really want the next group of female
drivers to come up through and be competitive and have
that opportunity, and I don't see it. And that's what
(32:35):
we're trying to do, Like Chevrolet and GM and I
have kind of teamed up on working with a couple
of drivers on the NASCAR side at the moment and
then probably further down the line in other arenas as well.
Is to train them like they train the guys, right, like,
slightly different attitude because women are different, not denying that,
(32:55):
but same result. You know, you have to put them
through the adverse and the struggles, and that's how they
learn and that's how they get better. If they race
against the best, then there's a chance that they can
beat the best. I look at all these companies that
are signing on to the F one Academy, and the
most recent one I just saw was Sephora, and I
(33:17):
wonder whether anybody's paying attention to it enough to think, actually.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
What am I doing?
Speaker 5 (33:22):
Am I sponsoring segregation. Am I saying this is all
those girls are capable of? Or am I going to
take that girl that I'm sponsoring or whatever and then
take her into the next series and then help her
along the way. And I think that's what needs to happen.
I think they need to realize that this is the
very first step and if it's treated as such, could
be a good opportunity. If it's not, you are just
(33:45):
helping her to go racing for a couple of years
and then she's gonna live happily ever after. I don't know,
but I feel very passionate about this because I think
there's a lot of talent there that, if it was
nurtured the right way, could be But I don't see anything.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
Cost the F one Academy and some prls.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
All right, before we pause for some ads, I do
want to remind you that we are a growing show
and we need your help. Rate and review, no grip
on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, and
don't forget to click that follower subscribe button while you're
at it. Okay, see you after the break. All right,
we're back with Racing Legend. Catherine legg and we are
(34:31):
discussing the state of women in motorsports. When people talk
about the pipeline, which is always like a term everyone
loves to use. Yeah, it's at the end of the day,
a lot of these teen girls and young women are
coming in years even like decade plus or more into
a racing career, or at least a more traditional racing
career for a lot of I would say boys and men.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
So you know, there's only so much you can do if.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
You're as a as a racing driver really getting like
that first daste of experience at like twenty three, twenty four,
when other people are geting you know, the money, the connections,
all that at like age eight to ten.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
The thing is, though, Susie she knows all of this
because she lived it. Yeah right, she came up through
karting same time as me. When Ento DTM is an
awesome driver herself honestly made it to test f one car.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
She knows what you have to do to get there.
Speaker 6 (35:19):
History was made at Silverstone on Friday as Susie Wolf
became the first woman to take part in the gropery
in twenty two years.
Speaker 5 (35:25):
And so what surprises me is there is no next step.
There's just like storing out there. And yeah, it's a
great little championship by itself, but it's almost condescending to
these girls, you know, like that's what you're capable of,
and then we're gonna pat you on the head and
give you a test driver role and make you a
(35:46):
name and then send you off if she knows that
you have to support them through the other championships, and
they're probably you know, F four, F three, F two
if you plan on taking the top three and you
plan on giving them the opportunity, not giving them a
couple of years they do well, throwing them in something
that they're not ready for, but like, really invest in
(36:08):
these girls so that you can put one in Formula
one in like three to five years, because let's be honest,
it's not going to happen before that. Then I would
be all for it, but it's just being seen as
the endel and beal and let's give the girls a
hundred horsepower where the guy's got a thousand horse power.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
You know, like it's just it just leaves a bad
taste in my math.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
That's a really good point on like the machinery itself.
You know, it's like I know all these things and
when you actually think about it and take a beat
and I don't know, yeah, Like I feel similarly like
I literally had a question here and you sort of
answered this question of like, you know, is there anything
that could make F one Academy a better series? Or
is this kind of doomed at this point to be
the sort of pinkshed like corporate vanity project, which I sincerely,
(36:51):
I sincerely believe that, like Susie Wolf and Company, that
was not their intention at the outset, Like I want
to believe I want to be an optimistic person and
say like and be generous in my interpretation here. But yeah,
it's funny you mentioned before because that's also where when
I first saw that announcement, I kind of went, huh, Yeah,
it's sort of this interesting question of where do these
women go after you know, you've had some really cool winners, though,
(37:14):
what are they actually getting to do in a really
concrete capacity for their careers?
Speaker 5 (37:20):
And I am one hundred percent confident in saying I
don't know Susie anymore, but I know old Susie and
she went into it with good intentions, right, Like she
knows what it takes. She wanted to make a difference,
She wanted to bring up the next generation of female drivers.
I know that she knows what it takes. I know
that she worked with the FIA Women in motors Book Commission,
(37:41):
and I know that that was grounded in reality. Michelle
Muton is the fearless founder leader of that and is
to this day still the only woman who's won world
championship on a global scale and stage, and it will
forever be our lead and queen and how else to
(38:02):
put it, like she knows them.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
An icon't even among the icons.
Speaker 6 (38:05):
Michelle, you say that the qualities needed to drive a
car are very suited to a woman.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
And for those who don't know, Michelle Mutton is a
rally legend.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yes, sure to drive a car, what it is, It's
to be precise, to be sure, to feel very well
your car.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
This is all of woman quality, not special man quality.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
She's still heavily involved in motorsports in many capacities.
Speaker 5 (38:28):
Right, and she's she's no bullshit. She's like straight to
the point, get it done. And I know that Susi
was very much like that as well. So I don't
know whether the plan is still for that to happen,
and I'm being impatient, but I do know that any
girls that I look at personally and I think, Okay,
(38:49):
she's going to be really good, she needs to go
to do this, that and the other. Like I'm surprised
at Dorianne, right. I thought Dorianne when she was doing
the Iron Dain and stuff was going to be really
good and special and she was being groomed for it,
and then F one Academy happened, and again it's kind
of stoled out a little bit.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
I mean, I really hope I'm wrong.
Speaker 5 (39:10):
I really hope she goes to F two at some
point and gets, you know, a good car, and like
we really see what she's capable of. But these companies
need to invest the money and say, okay, I'll put
the six mel in or whatever it's going to cost
for her to get there, and see if she's ending good.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
Can she finish in the top ten? You know, does
she deserver?
Speaker 6 (39:26):
She?
Speaker 4 (39:27):
For sure?
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I mean I just wanted to say, I guess, like
a confession of sorts, I used to be a kind
of schuvenistic, toxic male basically, and I was transformed in
an instant when I had my first daughter.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Yes, you know, it's like before and after a moment
for me.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
And I'm a huge F one fan and I'm just
really really hoping that we get an F one a
female driver, because I know that there's no reason there
shouldn't be, and it's just a dream of mine.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
And I really hope it happened. So just a confession
and a statement more than a question.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
I guess, yeah, me too. I really have been my lifetime.
It happened.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yeah, I of course continued to be like, I think
it'll be great when there are twenty two seats available
and all twenty two were women, because then we will
have to achieve true equality if they could fill every seat.
But I would be really excited to see multiple women
on the grid at once. I think, to me, that's
like what I really look forward to, because, like I said,
I always worry about the pressure to be the one,
(40:27):
and like I said, Catherine, you have certainly had to
deal with that throughout your career of kind of looking
around and saying like, oh, great, you know I have
to do that. It's a great honor, but it's also
a lot of pressure.
Speaker 5 (40:38):
It was really cool when I wasn't and yeah, I
want to get back to those days, you know. I
want there to be a plethora of girls in F
two and Indy lights fighting it out for the few
seats that come available every year.
Speaker 4 (40:52):
That would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yeah, and I guess my last question for you it's
a little meta, but what keeps you going now? Had
this incredible career You've been You've been added, But what's
what's next?
Speaker 4 (41:03):
And what are you what are you excited about? I
have unfinished business.
Speaker 5 (41:08):
I feel like there are still things that I want
to achieve and do, Like I still have a bucket
list of things that I want to do, Like I
I've always wanted to do bathist and a gut car.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
I've always wanted to drive a big burly V E.
And see what that's lying.
Speaker 5 (41:21):
I mean, there's things that I probably won't get to
do that I that I have on my bucket list.
But I feel like I'm still fast and I still
want to keep raising as long as the opportunities are there,
then keep pushing for it. And then the thing that
I'm very passionate about, as you can tell from talking
(41:42):
to me for the for the last hour, is that
I want the next generation to come up and be awesome.
And I have a feeling that the lady Abuses of
the world that are training in Arca and there's a
girl Toya to girl called Jade who seems to like
really have the attention papilism, and so I would love
(42:03):
to have that happen and be like, well, I'm aut
of a job now, right, So I want to bring
up that next generation and hope that they do the
same and then it snowballs from the amen.
Speaker 6 (42:16):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
So should the F one Academy cease to exist? I
think that is a bit severe and a bit rash,
But now that the series is in its fourth season,
I think it's worth taking another look at whether or
not it's achieving its original objectives and then figuring out
what needs adjustments. So is there a way for it
to go back to its original promise of helping women
(42:44):
with the financial backing and mentorship aspects of motor racing.
Should it look at using its corporate sponsors in other ways?
Or will the F one Academy continue to sink further
into a pile of girl boss media questions?
Speaker 4 (43:01):
Question? That's our show.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Our next episode will be that special book Club episode
where we dive into Suzu Wolfe's new memoir Driven, and yes,
it is not lost on me that this is now
the second media property we are discussing on the show
with the title Driven. No Grip is hosted by me
Lily Herman and produced, edited and sound designed.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
By Johai Metal.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Max Miller is our executive producer. We get additional production
support from Poldo Special thanks to Ben Riskin at Roomtone
at iHeart Shantitone is executive producer. Be sure to give
this show a five star rating and review. Wherever you're listening.
You can follow me at Lily k Herman on Instagram
and subscribe to my f one culture newsletter at Engine
failuref one dot com. And you can follow us at
(43:47):
No Grip Podcast on Instagram and TikTok
Yo, Hi, Lily, We're going to talk about another topic
that I feel like you're going to be playing just
a tiny bit of ketchup on. We're talking about women.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Now, is this topic? I like?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
No, in all seriousness, I know you're excited about this.
I'm excited about this.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
We have an important episode today.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yeah, it's a good episode. It's important episode to set
this up for listeners. The topic of women in motorsports,
or even women in Formula one is incredibly broad, right,
so a figure given the fact that Susie Wolfe's memoir
came out this week here in the States, it makes
the most sense to use the Formula one Academy, which
(00:37):
she's in charge of, as the jumping off point. So
the Formula one Academy, it's also called F one Academy
or F one A. It is essentially a women centric
motorsports series. It's equivalent to a Formula four race. This
is kind of one of the bottom rungs of the
junior formula, and the idea is that there's a lot
of issues with the pipeline of how women come up
(00:58):
from karting and into the junior formula and make their
way up the ranks. To something like F one or
into other upper echelons of motor racing, and this is
providing a valuable opportunity for that. So I thought, Hey,
Susie's memoirs out perfect opportunity for us to talk about
the very large and very thorny topic of women in
(01:21):
Formula one and motorsports at large at this juncture.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Or lack thereof or lack thereof.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yes, a hefty topic which we're gonna solve sexism and
misogyny in like forty minutes.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Let's go, no time to lose.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I will also say too, this episode is going to
be a broader look at women in motorsports. We won't
be diving into like ultra ultraspecifics of Susie's memoir if
you really want that book club feel. I will be
breaking down Susie's memoir with my good friend India Porter
in an upcoming bonus episode, so stay tuned for that.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I'm still in the middle, So no spoilers, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
No spoilers. But first, before we get to the specifics
of Susie's book, in this bonus episode, we are going
to tackle women in motorsports. You know, one of the
big issues I've noticed when it comes to conversations about
women in F one or women in motorsports at large,
is that there is a real reticence to name some
(02:21):
of the other uncomfortable truths that come along with that,
and instead there can be sort of an opting into
like a girl Boss narrative where you know, any form
of critique is like setting women back, and that everything
like that happens to women is you know, ultimately a positive,
when again there are just some some contradictions that can
exist there. So, for instance, Susie Wolf herself, who's at
(02:43):
the top of this ladder or this series, she was
at one point an accomplished and talented racing driver in
her own right, and also her position as the managing
director of the Formula one Academy is massively helped by
the fact that she is married to Mercedes team principal
Toto Wolf Right, he has access to certain connections and
(03:04):
finances that she does not. I will also say all
three of the F one Academy's winners from its first
three seasons have gotten things like a test drive here,
and they are gotten to take part in other portions
of other motorsports series. But there hasn't really been a
meaningful progression for them up the junior formula system or
up to other big name series, Like you're not seeing
(03:26):
these women suddenly racing in the Indy five hundred or
something like that. Yo, it probably doesn't surprise you to
learn I've never stepped foot in a race car.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
I keep trying to convince you to go karting with me,
but I guess you're scared.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
I'm a girl who loves loves the speed limit. I
love to have my music on and just be cruising.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
What we call an armchair expert.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yes, I am an armchair expert. Today we have someone
who not only comes from a place of actual experience
in a race car, she's actually an icon of the sport.
And on top of all of that is a woman
with actual opinions on and what would it take to
have better female representation across all motorsports, but especially in
(04:05):
something like Formula one? And where is F one Academy?
Maybe a help versus a hindrance?
Speaker 4 (04:12):
Catherine, how are you? I'm good, babe, how are you?
I'm hanging in there on a Friday, I know right?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Enter racing driver Catherine Legg, who not only comes from
the same generation of racers as Susie Wolf, but also
has a number of evolving, nuanced thoughts on the pros
and cons of a women centric racing series like F
one Academy and what's actually needed to get women where
they want to go in motorsports, including in Formula one.
Catherine's list of accomplishments and racing series and championships and
(04:41):
all that is absurdly long, but a small sampling of
her bondifides. She holds the record for the fastest qualifying
effort for a woman in Indy five hundred history. She
actually became the first woman to win a major open
wheel race in North America, and that was all the
way back in two thousand and five. She has, yeah,
aside from F one, pretty much every racing series under
(05:03):
the sun, be it NASCAR, DTM, she did race and
some of the junior formula back in the day. Jesus, Catherine, like,
you are everywhere around the globe racing all the time.
The other thing I will note she is actually sponsored
by Elf Cosmetics, and when she signed with the company
several years ago, it was a huge deal because it
marked this major shift in how beauty brands interact with
(05:26):
motorsports at large, and it was really cool to see
her speak so much about hey, like women can contain multitudes,
and I'm a fierce racing driver. And also I do
love a good lengthening mascara, which her and I actually
discussed on her show Throttle Therapy a few weeks before
we recorded this conversation. So before we get to present day,
(05:47):
can you just talk about how you even got into
motorsports originally?
Speaker 4 (05:50):
I have to take you way way back, many years ago.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
I was a kid when I first found R I
was nine years old, and it was purely by accident
and happenstance. My family went on vacation holiday as we
would call it to Spain, and my dad and my
(06:16):
uncle had to go on the carts, you know, like
the fun cuts, not the serious carts. And I was
not tall enough or big enough, or they wouldn't let
me because I wasn't old enough. I remember being massively
upset by this, because as a kid, I was very
much a adrenaline junkie, tomboy daddy's girl. I was left
(06:39):
with my dad. I don't know of a better way
to say that, but my sister had a hernia when
she was a baby, so my mom spent a lot
of time in the hospital with her, and my dad
had to look after me. So he would do things
with me like ride on Mormo because we had a
lot of grass that needed to cut, and so he
(06:59):
would have me, as a two three year old, like
do stuff like that with him. So I think it
programmed me into a thinking he was awesome and wanting
to be just like my dad in every aspect of
my life. And also like love doing typically what's known
as boys stuff right like working on cars, riding on lawnmowers,
(07:20):
cutting down trees. I was exposed to that side rather
than playing with dollies and stuff. So nine year old
Catherine wanted to jump off the highest diving board associated
more with boys of my age than girls of my
age because I wanted to do all the cool, dangerous,
(07:40):
adrenaline junkie stuff and was devastated that I couldn't join
my dad and my uncle in the go cuts. We
get back to England and there's an advert in our
local paper for our local go cut track.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
He went along me, being daddy's girl, went with him.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Realized that I was big enough to do the kid
cart version of this nagged him incessantly for the next
gosh six months, I would say, until Christmas rolled around.
And then for my Christmas present, I found a go
kart and garage, and so he had started racing go
kartside had started racing gokuts. He lasted maybe six races
(08:21):
and then quit because he said, what if he got
hurt and there was nobody there to look after me.
And I was super fast because I weighed probably like
eighty pounds, soaking wet, and I had no fear or
anything at that age. So we both found a combined
love of this competition, in this racing. So it became
(08:43):
not only a thing that we did together, but this
entire focus of our existence and our lives, to the
detriment of my mom and my sister honestly, because we
would watch Grand PRI's and be obsessed with Formula one,
and we would go away racing every weekend and any
spare cash, Like my dad gave up smoking so that
(09:05):
he could afford to buy me new Gokut tires, which
was good for his health and good for my speed.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
That's like a reverse tobacco sponsorship.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I know.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
It was the beginning of a path in my life
that I wanted to follow and I found enjoyment from.
And I feel incredibly lucky hashtag burst that I found it,
because a lot of people don't find that thing that
makes them want to get out of bed in the
morning and that they think about and that they eat, sleep, drink, breathe,
(09:37):
whatever it may be. And I had this passion for
racing and not cars, by the way, Like I'm not
a car now at all. I'm not really that interested
in different cars. I kind of am to a certain extent.
But it's the competition. It's the competition with yourself. It's
the adrenaline. It's the fact that you never get it
perfect and you're always learning. How much of it's natural talent,
(10:00):
how much of his learned talent? Like can you study
too much and then overanalyze and then lay stuff down
because you're overthinking about it and it's all mental. And
it's like all of these things that I love about
it so much, which I guess is why I'm here
talking to you today.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Noah, it's just I mean, I feel like some of
the people I know who are the most passionate about
certain things. Yeah, they found it through a happy accident,
which I always love. Can you describe you're getting behind
the wheel of any vehicle? What is that feeling of adrenalineline? Like,
what is that like to be in control of like
this beast of a machine. And you know, I will
(10:35):
say I am not an adrenaline junkie. I will probably
never be driving fast ever in my life. So I'm
always really really curious when I get the chance to
talk to actual racers about like, what is that it
that keeps you coming back?
Speaker 4 (10:48):
I don't know that I can put it into layman terms.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
It just has this energy about it that you can't
you have to experience for yourself. It's like doing the
scariest thing that you force yourself to do because you
know that you want to do it, Like if you've
ever been skydiving, or if you've ever gone down a
slide on a roller coaster or anything like that. Like
it's that level of intense focus and anticipation.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Because I'm never scared or anything like that. It's more.
Speaker 5 (11:24):
Every bone in your body and every molecule of you,
every cell is ready. There's nothing else that you're thinking
about anything more than perfectly executing. But you also know
that you can't consciously think about it, so you have
to let your subconscious take over. Otherwise your conscious mind's
not fast enough to keep up, so your subconscious deals
(11:45):
with it. An example of this would be you drive
home and you don't remember the last ten minutes of driving.
You're like, I got home. I don't remember driving home.
Say the same kind of deal, different scales, same kind
of deal, But the nerves and the anticipation is what
really makes you hone in and makes you just laser focus,
(12:08):
and that feeling is addictive.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
It's like a happy pill.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
And did you, from a young age have a certain
championship or series that you really wanted to racing? Because
I think of like Susie Wolf in her book, for instance,
is like F one, Like whoa, But you know, I
don't know if you had something similar I did.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
I wanted to be a Formula one driver, desperately wants
to be a Formula one driver.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
That was my goal.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
My parents instilled the belief in me that you could
be anything that you wanted to be. It doesn't matter
where you came from or what the opportunities were like.
If you want something badly enough, you will find a
way to make it happen, and we weren't wealthy, so
I had to like try and persuade people to give
me drives here, there and everywhere. I did some Formula
forward stuff that we ran ourselves badly. I would take
(12:55):
any opportunity to this day that was thrown at me
to drive of a Rasca, and I desperately wanted to
make it to Formula one.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
I was misguided, like we didn't have any experience.
Speaker 5 (13:08):
All these F one drivers, like their dads are in it,
or they have these managers.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
We didn't have any of that.
Speaker 5 (13:13):
We just kind of did it on a wing and
a prayer and the belief that if you wanted something
badly enough, you could make it happen. And then I
came to America and went the champ Car route and
ended up finding IndyCar and wanting that to be my home.
And I still have a obsession with the Any five hundred.
(13:34):
But then I went and did a sports cars and
then that became an obsession. And so it changed very
quickly from I want to be an F one driver too.
I want to have a career in driving, and I
want to make a difference in that career in driving
and have people remember me in the right way. I
wanted other young girls to be able to look at
me and be proud of that. Wanted my dad to
(13:57):
look at me and be proud of that. In hindsight,
probably I could have done things a lot differently, but
I tested a Formula Wonka.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
I tested the Minati in two thousand and six.
Speaker 6 (14:08):
First, we'll have to see how she does on her test.
I have to say she has done well so far,
but obviously Formula one is completely different to what she
has done before. Physically it will be a radical change,
particularly to what a woman.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Is used to.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
And honestly, had Paul startad owned the team, I think
how itu have had a good shot.
Speaker 6 (14:28):
Catherine is sure that she will realize her goal's agenda
not being an issue.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
However, they sent it to Red Bull and Helmut Marco
was like, hell, no, we don't want her.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Oh my god, that was my f wonderings up and smoke.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
First of all, we have joked on the show about
how Helmet Marco seems to subsist on sucking the life
force out of many a young driver. So perhaps I'm
not saying that it's still a bummer, but perhaps maybe,
but a little lucky. You seem to be fully intact,
which cannot be said for some of these other drivers
who went through the junior program at Red Bull.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
But what is the.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Process of even getting that type of test right? What
are the rungs that you have to go through in general,
the hoops you have to jump through to get that.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
I think it's about momentum and perception. I was very
lucky as well, and I have the right people on
my side fight in my corner. I had the gumption
to approach Kevin Calcoven, who was in England buying Cosworth
from Ford, to give me an opportunity in Formula Atlantic,
which is now the same as Indie Lights, and I
(15:29):
went out and I won the first race from mid
pack after I'd stuck it in the wall in qualifying.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Look at her puffed the fist as she earned it.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
One of the most remarkable performances we have seen in
the history of the Toyota Atlantic Championship.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
What a day for the team, for Captain leg Ad.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
For the series.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
I think that that turned heads and people were already like, okay,
who is this girl? And then I went and won
another couple of races. I finished on the podium a bunch.
I finished that in the championship in my first year
of full time racing in a big car that I
had never experienced on tracks that I'd never driven before.
I mean it was my first street race as well,
and so everybody was like, oh, this is cool, and
(16:10):
it was positive momentum. I think it was the perception
that Okay, there could be a chick that could drive here,
and the momentum of like, keep building on those results
and keep it going. Like if your career stools, which
I feel like mine is done on a couple of
occasions now, then the perception is that you are done
(16:35):
and forgotten about. What people don't realize and are shocked
to hear and don't believe either, is eighty five percent
of the drivers the top eighty five percent of the
Top Series. They're all really really freaking good, and any
single one of those could be made into a start
(16:57):
if they have the right team, the right car, the
right engineers, and the right opportunity and sponsorship and money
and everything behind them. And it's funny because I was
having this conversation with a friend of mine the other day,
which was could you put somebody who was a really
good driver in a shitty car and have them make
the difference. And could you put a really bad driver
(17:21):
in a good car and have them make a difference?
Like where would that crossover be? And I said, the
people at the back are working so much harder than
the people at the front. And I know this because
I've driven both, right, and I've driven both at Indy
and I was given a super great car with Sam
Schmid in twenty thirteen, and I just remember thinking, this
(17:44):
is awesome, this is easy, Like I can just drive
this thing and it's easy.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
I'm not fighting it.
Speaker 5 (17:50):
And then I've driven bad cars where you're fighting for
your life just to try and get the best out
of that car. And I honestly think I think that
people don't see that the team and the car make
up for more.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
Of the results than the driver does.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
For the most part, all the drives are really really good,
and the it is the car making the difference.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
At what point.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Two do you start to notice that perhaps your path
a variety of reasons, including maybe because you're a woman,
might have to just look a little different than these
like rich guys who can just kind of come in
you know, fit in with a boy's club, have the connections?
Have you know billionaire fathers who can just bestow all
(18:33):
sorts of money upon them, Like, what does that end
up looking like for you?
Speaker 5 (18:36):
I mean, I think that's life, right. I am not
trust one baby. Unfortunately, my dad also wishes that I was,
because that means that he would be wealthy. But I
saw him work really hard and struggle and fight on
his own for his business.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
He built houses.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
He's seventy three years old and he's just doing his
last one now, Like that that's his work ethic.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
He's awesome.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
So I learned from him, as we do the people
that surround us, that not everything's equal and it's not
going to be easy, and if you want something, you
have to work harder than the next person. And also
I learn at a very early age that if everything
is handed to you on a plate like that, it
doesn't mean as much. So in a way, I feel
(19:20):
fortunate that I'm forced to work for it because every victory,
every drive that I get, every opportunity that I'm forced
to take in a shitty car. I'm sorry for the
bad language is a blessing because it means so much
more when you achieve that thing afterwards than if it's
just an easy thing to do. You know, like your
(19:41):
dad goes here, Catherine, I got your ride with McLaren
Like cool, Okay, that's awesome, But you didn't put in
the work for that. So your self worth is not
the same, oh.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
For sure, just a very I think, a very different
mentality as far as life is concerned.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
You could feel sorry for yourself and think, oh woe
with me, I don't have three Ferraris and six time
Aginis sat in the garage, or you can be like
I can get that for myself and feel feel good
about life or whatever your goals. Maybe maybe you are
from a ton of money and your goals are different
(20:18):
than winning IndyCar race.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Maybe you know you're a good person and care.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
About real world stuff and not about going really fast
and around circles.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Act.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
There's many it's a spectrum.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
One thing I've always wanted to ask a race driver
is just you know, there are different sports where you
don't need to be too intelligent. You can just kind
of be physically talented, you know, run fast or jump
very high. But from kind of like just being a
motorsports fan and listening to you now listening to drivers talk,
it seems like this is a sport where you need
(20:54):
more than just physical talent and instincts and stuff. You
need to have really high intelligence and mental capacity just
to drive these cars. Because it's not just about physical ability.
It's also you know, being able to focus on several
things simultaneously talk to your team while also you know,
being at the edge of your physical ability.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
And I think it's a mix of things.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
Especially with the hybrid systems and everything that come along,
you end up being engineers with all the bells and
whistles and knobs and everything else.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
I think it's a spectrum.
Speaker 5 (21:25):
There are some drivers who are really brave and have
a certain level of natural ability that can throw a
lop together and don't know how they did it. And
then there's the real, studied, learned drivers. And I think
the ones with natural ability that also put in the
work are the ones that are really good. And I
think the intelligent drivers are the ones that end up
doing well in certain scenarios because you're having to think
(21:48):
about more things than just the driving. You're kind of
playing chess in your mind about which lane is going
to go and you're listening to your spottery and you're thinking, okay,
but if that lane goes and here's a toya and
he's also a tootur, and so I need to hook
up with this Chevy. But this Chevy guy doesn't really
rate me. So am I better off dropping back and
doing this? And so meanwhile, like all of that's going on,
(22:09):
You're doing two hundred miles an hour and your spotter
is in your ears telling you where to place the
car and everything. So you have to be able to
control your emotions because driving is an extremely emotional sport.
And some advice given to me when I first made
the switch to sports cars was be a robot.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
That was Andy Lally, And I was like, what do
you mean be a robot?
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Because I would get I rate, I'd get pissed off,
somebody hit me, somebody did this, and I'd be on
the radio and I'd be bitching about it.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
You're a hothead on the comms.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
I what I used to be not anymore, Not anymore,
because I recognize it in myself and I am like,
this isn't getting me anywhere. It's actually like to my detriment.
So I'm not gonna let them win by having them
rile me up. I'll deal with it later. I mean
sometimes it still gets to me. I'm not perfect, but
(22:59):
for the most but you have to be smart enough
to recognize that in yourself and then again and control
your emotions. You have to be able to think, and
you also have to be able to balance the self
preservation kind of balls to the wall thing. When you're eighteen,
you're not scared of anything, and you're like, you crash
a lot more than when you're thirty, right because you
(23:23):
learn what.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
That limit of that car is and you have a
healthy respect for it.
Speaker 5 (23:27):
And so when you get a little bit of experience,
then you realize, Okay, I'm not going to push it
totally over the limit like I just did. Or it's
like a molding process where you still need to be
just as brave as you were when you're eighteen, but
you just need to be a whole lot smarter about it.
So there's so many things that go into driving, and
(23:49):
I think a lot of people think that it's so
easy because they drive their car and it's nothing like that.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I'm like, we're going to jump for a quick ad break,
but stick around because when we get back. We're going
to dive into the question of Formula one Academy and
women in motorsports.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
What it seems to have done is stunt the growth
in a competitive manner.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
And we're back with Catherine Legg to switch gears here
to the topic of like women in motorsports And I
think you know, this is an F one culture podcast,
so obviously f what Academy comes up. Something else I've
been thinking about a lot, especially this year, is it
feels like there's more and more campaigning for women to
be kind of vaguely involved in different series. But I
(24:38):
think that there's this underlying question of actual progress that
keeps coming up. As a woman who's been around for
a bit, has had a lot of success, has gotten
to see and do so much, how are you feeling
about the state of this pipeline for women at this
point and what it's morphed into over the course of
your career.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
I'm disappointed. I think it's messed up.
Speaker 5 (25:01):
I look back twenty years, which is how long, thank god,
my career has lasted so far, and I look at
when I came into it and kind of hit the
scene in two thousand and five in America, and Danika
was there before us. You had if you take it
way way back, you had Janet Guthrie, nin Sent James,
(25:22):
Sarah Fisher, Danica Me. Basically, that's really the crux of
the ones that were taken seriously, and you take it
to I don't know, the early kind of era, there
were a good six of us doing the Indy five hundred,
(25:45):
you know, racing professionally, being taken seriously as professional drivers,
regardless of gender, and that had kind of been growing
since the Janet Lynn days and company.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Well, the first lady ever qualify at Indianapolis. Gentlemen, start
your red drums.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
Janet opened the doors. Lyn crashed the ceiling down, broke
into the door.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I don't listen to people who say I can't do it.
Doesn't penetrate the ear drums.
Speaker 5 (26:22):
And then you had people like Sarah who was awesome
in certain aspects like super awesome. And obviously Danika did
very well. Danika did it, Danik away, why don't we
do seriously?
Speaker 4 (26:36):
You did the same thing in practice. You did the
same thing.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
You get out my left rear and it spends me out.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
You did the same thing.
Speaker 5 (26:43):
Then you had the Me and Simona kind of like
we were trying just to not play on the fact
that we were female and just try and be taken
seriously as race car drivers so that it wasn't a gimmick,
so that we weren't looked at differently to anybody else.
I've change my opinion on that slightly since Elf came
on board and I was able to be more authentic
(27:06):
and feminine and say, Okay, I can be a girl
and I can still be a badass, and so I
don't have to like make myself smaller and pretend that
I'm a dude.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
Not that I ever did that, but you know, you
know what I mean, like to fit into this mold.
Speaker 5 (27:19):
But I would always ask myself what would Jensen Button
do because he was the era before me, when I
saw him growing up through kating and making it to everyone,
and I wanted to kind of be like the girl
version of that. And there was a lot of female
talent knocking on the doors. They were being given opportunity
because it was still different, and I think it went
(27:40):
against us as much as it went for us. I think,
honestly nowadays it goes against us more than it goes
for us, because it's not new anymore, and it has
been turned into something that has left a bad taste
in very many people's mouths. It's kind of been forced
upon them when it's not in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
And I know this.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
I don't want this to turn into a DEI discussion
in any way, shape or form, because I think a
lot of us have got their own merit regardless of gender. However,
I think the inception of the W Series and then
Formula One kind of killing that and doing their own
thing with the F one Academy has very much limited
the women with potential in the racing world. If you
(28:25):
look at it, ten years ago, there was a handful
of us at the top level of racing. Now there
isn't and I put a lot of that down to
they got siphoned off to the shiny thing that is
the F one Academy. And let me preface this by
the way, and that I am very very pro women
(28:46):
like I have tried to do all women teams to
try and showcase talent to get them opportunities to move on.
I've always been very vocal about the fact they don't
want it to be a gimmick. I just want it
to be more visible and showcased so that other young
women may have the opportunities in good equipment. So very
this is not a knock in any way, shape or
(29:06):
form on any women. And I also love women's sports,
and I think women's sports have a place in sports
where women should be segregated because it comes down to
physical ability. Racing is not one of those sports that
we cannot compete equally as women in an immense spot.
There's no reason to segregate us. I don't think that
(29:27):
we need a women only race car series. If we did,
and it was a women's Formula one series, then that
would be a whole different ballgame to the F one Academy,
which maybe the anticipation was that it would morph into
that in some way. I don't know that I would
before that either. I mean, I'm so torn, and this
(29:50):
is why I'm squirrelling on this subject, and I apologize, Lily.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
You have to bear with me.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
You're still getting more of an opinion, like I said,
than like ninety nine percent of people I've talked to,
including those who ten have opinions on other things, but
get to this topic and then are like, oh no,
like it is uncomfortable because multiple things are true at
once and they're also uncomfortable things like and it's not
necessarily I think it's one of those those discussions it's
like important to have, but also to know that there's
(30:15):
not necessarily a singular correct answer, right, and when you
pull on one thread, like twelve more come undone.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Right.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
As you're talking, I'm thinking about the fact too that
a huge, huge part of what you're saying is there
was a lot of camaraderie around having a group of
women all kind of coming up together. And what's lost
when you kind of put all the pressure on you know,
someone like a Jamie Chadwick who won the w series,
you know the entirety of its existence, and then you know,
there's all this pressure on her to make it and
what happens when she doesn't, or you know, for any
(30:43):
number of reasons, when that dream dies with like a
singular person moving to a different series, or you know,
life happens whatever.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
Yeah, I am one of those people who's so torn
on it because they think when I was talking Toxseusy
about it early on, this is many years gay. The
miss of it was to give these girls an opportunity
and a springboard, and to a certain extent, it does that.
It increases their following, it makes them more visible, it
(31:11):
makes them more attractive to sponsors. We'll get to sponsors
in a minute. But what it seems to have also
done is stunt their growth in a competitive kind of manner.
You've got a handful maybe maybe two or three that
I look at that are doing other things at the
same time, meaning like F four or you know, some
(31:34):
European series, which I think they absolutely need to be doing.
I think if you don't race against the best, you
are never going to be the best. You can't expect
some club racer who's racing against average drivers to then
go and compete on a Formula one grid. And that's
basically what it is. Let's be honest. I think if
it was used as a springboard and they just did
a year, or they did a couple of years and
(31:56):
then that led to something else, maybe maybe not. But
what it doesn't do in any way, shape or form
is prepare them to be as good as the next
F two driver that's going to make it to F one,
And so I.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
Think they need to change that.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
And it's like, yeah, they get a lot of followers
from it, great, but do they get the skills that
they need to be able to be competitive in the
equivalent mixed series? And that's what really kind of chafes
me because I really want the next group of female
drivers to come up through and be competitive and have
that opportunity, and I don't see it. And that's what
(32:35):
we're trying to do, Like Chevrolet and GM and I
have kind of teamed up on working with a couple
of drivers on the NASCAR side at the moment and
then probably further down the line in other arenas as well.
Is to train them like they train the guys, right, like,
slightly different attitude because women are different, not denying that,
(32:55):
but same result. You know, you have to put them
through the adverse and the struggles, and that's how they
learn and that's how they get better. If they race
against the best, then there's a chance that they can
beat the best. I look at all these companies that
are signing on to the F one Academy, and the
most recent one I just saw was Sephora, and I
(33:17):
wonder whether anybody's paying attention to it enough to think, actually.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
What am I doing?
Speaker 5 (33:22):
Am I sponsoring segregation. Am I saying this is all
those girls are capable of? Or am I going to
take that girl that I'm sponsoring or whatever and then
take her into the next series and then help her
along the way. And I think that's what needs to happen.
I think they need to realize that this is the
very first step and if it's treated as such, could
be a good opportunity. If it's not, you are just
(33:45):
helping her to go racing for a couple of years
and then she's gonna live happily ever after. I don't know,
but I feel very passionate about this because I think
there's a lot of talent there that, if it was
nurtured the right way, could be But I don't see anything.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
Cost the F one Academy and some prls.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
All right, before we pause for some ads, I do
want to remind you that we are a growing show
and we need your help. Rate and review, no grip
on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, and
don't forget to click that follower subscribe button while you're
at it. Okay, see you after the break. All right,
we're back with Racing Legend. Catherine legg and we are
(34:31):
discussing the state of women in motorsports. When people talk
about the pipeline, which is always like a term everyone
loves to use. Yeah, it's at the end of the day,
a lot of these teen girls and young women are
coming in years even like decade plus or more into
a racing career, or at least a more traditional racing
career for a lot of I would say boys and men.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
So you know, there's only so much you can do if.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
You're as a as a racing driver really getting like
that first daste of experience at like twenty three, twenty four,
when other people are geting you know, the money, the connections,
all that at like age eight to ten.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
The thing is, though, Susie she knows all of this
because she lived it. Yeah right, she came up through
karting same time as me. When Ento DTM is an
awesome driver herself honestly made it to test f one car.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
She knows what you have to do to get there.
Speaker 6 (35:19):
History was made at Silverstone on Friday as Susie Wolf
became the first woman to take part in the gropery
in twenty two years.
Speaker 5 (35:25):
And so what surprises me is there is no next step.
There's just like storing out there. And yeah, it's a
great little championship by itself, but it's almost condescending to
these girls, you know, like that's what you're capable of,
and then we're gonna pat you on the head and
give you a test driver role and make you a
(35:46):
name and then send you off if she knows that
you have to support them through the other championships, and
they're probably you know, F four, F three, F two
if you plan on taking the top three and you
plan on giving them the opportunity, not giving them a
couple of years they do well, throwing them in something
that they're not ready for, but like, really invest in
(36:08):
these girls so that you can put one in Formula
one in like three to five years, because let's be honest,
it's not going to happen before that. Then I would
be all for it, but it's just being seen as
the endel and beal and let's give the girls a
hundred horsepower where the guy's got a thousand horse power.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
You know, like it's just it just leaves a bad
taste in my math.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
That's a really good point on like the machinery itself.
You know, it's like I know all these things and
when you actually think about it and take a beat
and I don't know, yeah, Like I feel similarly like
I literally had a question here and you sort of
answered this question of like, you know, is there anything
that could make F one Academy a better series? Or
is this kind of doomed at this point to be
the sort of pinkshed like corporate vanity project, which I sincerely,
(36:51):
I sincerely believe that, like Susie Wolf and Company, that
was not their intention at the outset, Like I want
to believe I want to be an optimistic person and
say like and be generous in my interpretation here. But yeah,
it's funny you mentioned before because that's also where when
I first saw that announcement, I kind of went, huh, Yeah,
it's sort of this interesting question of where do these
women go after you know, you've had some really cool winners, though,
(37:14):
what are they actually getting to do in a really
concrete capacity for their careers?
Speaker 5 (37:20):
And I am one hundred percent confident in saying I
don't know Susie anymore, but I know old Susie and
she went into it with good intentions, right, Like she
knows what it takes. She wanted to make a difference,
She wanted to bring up the next generation of female drivers.
I know that she knows what it takes. I know
that she worked with the FIA Women in motors Book Commission,
(37:41):
and I know that that was grounded in reality. Michelle
Muton is the fearless founder leader of that and is
to this day still the only woman who's won world
championship on a global scale and stage, and it will
forever be our lead and queen and how else to
(38:02):
put it, like she knows them.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
An icon't even among the icons.
Speaker 6 (38:05):
Michelle, you say that the qualities needed to drive a
car are very suited to a woman.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
And for those who don't know, Michelle Mutton is a
rally legend.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yes, sure to drive a car, what it is, It's
to be precise, to be sure, to feel very well
your car.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
This is all of woman quality, not special man quality.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
She's still heavily involved in motorsports in many capacities.
Speaker 5 (38:28):
Right, and she's she's no bullshit. She's like straight to
the point, get it done. And I know that Susi
was very much like that as well. So I don't
know whether the plan is still for that to happen,
and I'm being impatient, but I do know that any
girls that I look at personally and I think, Okay,
(38:49):
she's going to be really good, she needs to go
to do this, that and the other. Like I'm surprised
at Dorianne, right. I thought Dorianne when she was doing
the Iron Dain and stuff was going to be really
good and special and she was being groomed for it,
and then F one Academy happened, and again it's kind
of stoled out a little bit.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
I mean, I really hope I'm wrong.
Speaker 5 (39:10):
I really hope she goes to F two at some
point and gets, you know, a good car, and like
we really see what she's capable of. But these companies
need to invest the money and say, okay, I'll put
the six mel in or whatever it's going to cost
for her to get there, and see if she's ending good.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
Can she finish in the top ten? You know, does
she deserver?
Speaker 6 (39:26):
She?
Speaker 4 (39:27):
For sure?
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I mean I just wanted to say, I guess, like
a confession of sorts, I used to be a kind
of schuvenistic, toxic male basically, and I was transformed in
an instant when I had my first daughter.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Yes, you know, it's like before and after a moment
for me.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
And I'm a huge F one fan and I'm just
really really hoping that we get an F one a
female driver, because I know that there's no reason there
shouldn't be, and it's just a dream of mine.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
And I really hope it happened. So just a confession
and a statement more than a question.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
I guess, yeah, me too. I really have been my lifetime.
It happened.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yeah, I of course continued to be like, I think
it'll be great when there are twenty two seats available
and all twenty two were women, because then we will
have to achieve true equality if they could fill every seat.
But I would be really excited to see multiple women
on the grid at once. I think, to me, that's
like what I really look forward to, because, like I said,
I always worry about the pressure to be the one,
(40:27):
and like I said, Catherine, you have certainly had to
deal with that throughout your career of kind of looking
around and saying like, oh, great, you know I have
to do that. It's a great honor, but it's also
a lot of pressure.
Speaker 5 (40:38):
It was really cool when I wasn't and yeah, I
want to get back to those days, you know. I
want there to be a plethora of girls in F
two and Indy lights fighting it out for the few
seats that come available every year.
Speaker 4 (40:52):
That would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yeah, and I guess my last question for you it's
a little meta, but what keeps you going now? Had
this incredible career You've been You've been added, But what's
what's next?
Speaker 4 (41:03):
And what are you what are you excited about? I
have unfinished business.
Speaker 5 (41:08):
I feel like there are still things that I want
to achieve and do, Like I still have a bucket
list of things that I want to do, Like I
I've always wanted to do bathist and a gut car.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
I've always wanted to drive a big burly V E.
And see what that's lying.
Speaker 5 (41:21):
I mean, there's things that I probably won't get to
do that I that I have on my bucket list.
But I feel like I'm still fast and I still
want to keep raising as long as the opportunities are there,
then keep pushing for it. And then the thing that
I'm very passionate about, as you can tell from talking
(41:42):
to me for the for the last hour, is that
I want the next generation to come up and be awesome.
And I have a feeling that the lady Abuses of
the world that are training in Arca and there's a
girl Toya to girl called Jade who seems to like
really have the attention papilism, and so I would love
(42:03):
to have that happen and be like, well, I'm aut
of a job now, right, So I want to bring
up that next generation and hope that they do the
same and then it snowballs from the amen.
Speaker 6 (42:16):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
So should the F one Academy cease to exist? I
think that is a bit severe and a bit rash,
But now that the series is in its fourth season,
I think it's worth taking another look at whether or
not it's achieving its original objectives and then figuring out
what needs adjustments. So is there a way for it
to go back to its original promise of helping women
(42:44):
with the financial backing and mentorship aspects of motor racing.
Should it look at using its corporate sponsors in other ways?
Or will the F one Academy continue to sink further
into a pile of girl boss media questions?
Speaker 4 (43:01):
Question? That's our show.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Our next episode will be that special book Club episode
where we dive into Suzu Wolfe's new memoir Driven, and yes,
it is not lost on me that this is now
the second media property we are discussing on the show
with the title Driven. No Grip is hosted by me
Lily Herman and produced, edited and sound designed.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
By Johai Metal.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Max Miller is our executive producer. We get additional production
support from Poldo Special thanks to Ben Riskin at Roomtone
at iHeart Shantitone is executive producer. Be sure to give
this show a five star rating and review. Wherever you're listening.
You can follow me at Lily k Herman on Instagram
and subscribe to my f one culture newsletter at Engine
failuref one dot com. And you can follow us at
(43:47):
No Grip Podcast on Instagram and TikTok
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