May 6, 2026 • 43 mins
These days, conversations about women in motorsports are never complete without mentions of Susie Wolff. Susie is the last woman to participate in an official Formula 1 race weekend more than a decade ago, and now runs F1 Academy, the highly visible Formula 1 support series. She's long been held up as a paragon of motorsports girlbossdom, but is there more to her story?
In this bonus episode, Lily and her pal Indiah Porter go over Susie's new memoir 'Driven,' which came out in the U.S. in late April, to unpack more of her background as both a racing driver and a business executive. But as they soon find, what Susie doesn't say in her book ends up being just as important — and much more interesting — as what she does.
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Episode Transcript
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Lily Herman (00:01):
So, as promised, welcome to our book Club bonus episode
where we are discussing racing driver turned Formula one Academy
managing director Susie Wolf's memoir Driven. And as I said
in our Kaptain like episode, yes, this is the second
time we have a media property called Driven. It came
out in the UK in the fall of twenty twenty five,
(00:21):
but it did just come out here in the States
in late April.
Lily Herman 2 (00:25):
So if you are.
Lily Herman (00:26):
Listening to this episode without having turned on our previous
episode with racing driver Catherine leg I would highly recommend it.
Lily Herman 2 (00:32):
It's a great companion.
Lily Herman (00:33):
Conversation about the Formula one Academy, about women in motorsports
at large, and about what's missing right, like why don't
we see a lot of women in motorsports and particularly
in Formula one. But I also think it is worth
noting because I know anytime we talk about a piece
of media, some people are like, eh, spoilers, like should
I read or watch or whatever? You know beforehand, you
do not have to have read this book to listen
(00:54):
to this episode. I feel like memoirs, there's not often
not much to spoil in memoirs person, but especially in
a book like this, It's not really about revelations, right,
It's more Susie giving her thoughts on what we I
think as a public generally already know about her or know,
you know, things that transpired in her life. So if
you're curious about her career or her background and maybe
(01:16):
know a little bit about her, but haven't ever really
heard too much, you know that goes in deep.
Lily Herman 2 (01:20):
I think this will give you the gist.
Indiah Porter (01:23):
I have your water bottle, I have my Oh yes.
Lily Herman 2 (01:26):
You have your cuddel.
Lily Herman (01:29):
Today though, I'm excited to have Formula one fan and
Lewis Hamilton enthusiast India Porter here to discuss the book.
Lily Herman 2 (01:35):
She actually got this.
Lily Herman (01:37):
Memoir when it was first released in the UK and
was the person who originally texted me saying, hey, this
actually is worth reading. Like, there are things in this book.
It's not just sort of a vanity memoir that doesn't
give you anything. So India welcome. Thank you so much
for doing this. We are going to have so much fun.
Indiah Porter (01:53):
Hi, Lily, thank you so much for having me here.
I'm so excited to talk with you.
Lily Herman (01:56):
Do you remember how we first met?
Indiah Porter (01:59):
I actually remember we met at the Montreal Grand Prix.
Oh gosh, I don't even remember how many years ago
it was, but I remember quite literally bumping into you
after leaving one of the free practices and going you
look familiar. Would you like to go hang out with
some other friends tonight? And we hung out and have
(02:21):
been friends ever again.
Lily Herman 2 (02:22):
I got to love the Canadian Grand Prix.
Lily Herman (02:24):
But anyway, onto what we are actually here to talk
about today. When you think of Susie Wolf, what are
you thinking of? Off the bat?
Indiah Porter (02:31):
Oh? When I think of Susie Wolf, I think of
a Scottish girl boss who wants to be accepted by
a lot of people and loved and wants to have
women both at the table with men, but also wants
to build a table for women. And she's interesting, all right.
Lily Herman (02:54):
So let's dipe into the first part of the book,
which is all about Susie's upbringing in the early part
of her motor sports career.
Lily Herman 2 (03:01):
There's a lot going on there.
Lily Herman (03:03):
It's sort of mixed as far as like I have,
like to use the very American phrase like picked myself
up by the bootstraps and like made this work.
Lily Herman 2 (03:10):
And yet also I am.
Lily Herman (03:11):
This like powerful woman who also has like deep connections
to f one, including being married to a guy who's
very important to the sport of f one. But you know,
that's kind of another complicating factor of her like existence
in the paddock. But I guess to dive into the
basics of Susie Wolf as we as we begin this journey.
(03:34):
So Susie Wolf, as you said, is Scottish. She was
born and raised in the Scottish Highlands, which I will
admit I read a lot of romance novels, historical romances
that take place in the Scottis Highlands. It's kind of
a subgenre of the subgenre of historical so that is
the extent of my Scotland knowledge. And her parents they
(03:55):
owned I think it's like a it's like a motorbike
dealership or something.
Indiah Porter (03:59):
Yes, her parents owned a motorbikes shop and they sold
German and British motorbikes. Yeah, and that's how she started
getting into racing motorbikes and motocross.
Lily Herman (04:12):
And I think the other thing too that she mentions
is that while all of that's going on, her mother
also I believe, runs a boutique with her grandma or
something to that effect. She's sowing the seeds of this
like dichotomy of like, you know, a woman who loves
racing but also glothes like and how do those two
worlds exist.
Indiah Porter (04:28):
Yes, it's trying to be relatable to the average.
Lily Herman 2 (04:31):
Girl, Yeah for sure.
Lily Herman (04:32):
And also she notes at this point that a lot
of her racing gear and kits and whatnot are pink,
and it's a theme that comes.
Lily Herman 2 (04:39):
Back throughout the book.
Lily Herman (04:41):
So ideally we play parts of Susie's actual audiobooks, you
could hear her tell the story of her life in
her beautiful Scottish accent. But since we'd really like to
not get sued, we can't do that. Luckily, we have
the next best thing that's definitely a perfect substitute, and
that is our executive producer, Max Miller, stepping in and
reading these passages in his sturdy American accent. You definitely
(05:03):
will not be able to tell the difference whatsoever.
Producer Max Miller (05:06):
Mom and Dad had custom wetsuits made for us by
a local company. What thrilled me most wasn't the practicality,
but the fact that I got to choose the colors.
At last, I could be like my prized ocean Snorkel
Barbie with her pink and light blue wetsuit just like
her I adored anything pink, So.
Lily Herman (05:25):
Susie Wolf her family, they're like a very tight family unit.
That's also like something that she really tries to hammer
home very early on in her book. She eventually makes
her way to actual karting at the age of eight,
and then is eventually named the British Woman kart Racing
Driver of the Year in nineteen ninety six. However, she
(05:46):
has these little anecdotes of like early misogyny and sexism
that she experiences even as an older kid into her
early adolescence.
Indiah Porter (05:55):
Yes, throughout her whole life she has painted herself as
an underdog when it comes to doing motocross and then
eventually switching into karting being the only girl there and
then next Also when she would do things such as swimming,
she was always either chosen last or not picked. This
(06:15):
kind of frames the story as heard being the David
going up against Goliath.
Lily Herman 2 (06:21):
Yeah, it's artfully done.
Lily Herman (06:22):
Like she kind of starts sprinkling in where things start
to go from Oh, I'm just having fun with like
a bunch of other kids, and they all happen to
be boys too. You know, older boys are starting to
make odd comments that are sexist or commenting on her body,
or parents are literally saying to their young boys like
you need to beat the girl, or she's getting hit
more when she's out karting. During races.
Producer Max Miller (06:43):
Some dads couldn't resist having a go at their sons
when I beat them, saying things like I can't believe
you let.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
A girl beat you.
Producer Max Miller (06:49):
You could see the frustration on their faces, and it
only made the boys push harder. Those comments were like
throwing petrol on a fire.
Lily Herman (06:57):
She starts to slowly realize like, oh, I might be
on a different path than everyone else who's racing at
this point. And this is going on when she's only
a child, or like very early in her preteens or
early teens, and she's already kind of experiencing that her
path is probably going to be a little bit different
than everyone else's.
Producer Max Miller (07:17):
I ditched the pink and bought a blue and white
suit with a sparkling silver stripe. The silver maybe was
the smallest nod to femininity, like a whisper of who
I was, but mostly it was blue. With my helmet on,
I could be easily mistaken for a boy. This was
more than a change of clothes. It was a metamorphosis.
I had to become one of them. Like Barbie. My
(07:40):
pink ray suit was packed in a storage box and
tucked away in the loft.
Lily Herman (07:45):
Something I find very interesting about this book is, Yes,
total Wolf. Her eventual husband comes in the back half,
and he's talked about a lot, and their story is
very much written as a romance novel, which I of
course love. But the other character who appears from literally
Toto Wolf's forward for this book and then very early
on in Susie's story, is a certain Lewis Hamilton begins
(08:05):
to appear.
Indiah Porter (08:06):
Yes, the undisfeted although sometimes disputed, goat of Formula one.
Lily Herman (08:12):
And also importantly he is the only black driver who's
ever been in the sport. Yes, also a fashion icon.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
Then came the Champagne.
Producer Max Miller (08:21):
Lewis, already well versed in celebrations with eight podium finishes
and five wins in that season, had to help me
open the bottle before I could join in. It was
a small thing, but it summed up where I was
just starting to find my place.
Lily Herman (08:35):
But I bring it up only because Lewis and Susie
probably have more in common as far as being othered
on any grid that they were on, more so than
probably most people there. And also if you compare for instance,
our pal Lancetroll and his socioeconomic upbringing compared to Lewis's
and then also Susie's, like Lewis and Susie have a
lot more in common. And I think it also makes
(08:56):
it all the more miraculous in some ways that Lewis
did in fact get on the grid. Like everything is
at the end of the day, like it's money, but
it's also a little bit of luck and like if
the correct person happens to be there at the right time,
Like how many things wouldn't have gone a certain way
if one one guy hadn't shown up to a race
and being.
Lily Herman 2 (09:12):
Like that kid's pretty good, like or same for Susie too.
Lily Herman (09:15):
But you know, it's it's just interesting to me because
from the get go he is kind of threaded throughout
the story in various ways.
Indiah Porter (09:22):
He is And this, honestly was probably my favorite part
of the book, is when she is talking about her
upbringing and these run ends with Lewis, because I think
it is the most relatable party thing for a lot
of young people, especially for myself as black woman. Fun fact, y'all.
I used to play ice hockey and I also rode,
and those are both predominantly white sports, especially white male
(09:46):
dominated sports. And the team I played ice hockey with
was predominantly black and Latino kids in Philadelphia. So I
know what it's like when we would show up at
other ranks and you would even have the refs and
the parents go, oh, like, this is the team we're
playing against. So I definitely can relate to Susie and
(10:08):
Lewis and this part of the book when they're thinking, oh,
I'm definitely being hothered both by the people I'm supposed
to be against, the people who are supposed to be
refereeing or calling the sport, or even the parents who
are supposed to be the moral overlords of everything as well.
(10:29):
So again, the first third of the book I think
was definitely the strongest slash, best slash, I think, most
relatable part for a lot of people.
Lily Herman (10:40):
I do think that she does a better job than
most in other motorsports memoirs and whatnot that I've read.
I'm kind of explaining yet, like the little ways that
sexism or inequality really comes in very early on.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
I suddenly heard my name over the loudspeaker. Susi started
to the podium ceremony.
Producer Max Miller (10:56):
Confused, I ran to the main stage. First place, second,
and third trophies were handed out. Then I was called
up top female driver in the world. My face burned
with embarrassment.
Lily Herman (11:09):
Even parents making comments where yes, we know that there
are crappy parents out there and parents who are way
too intense about sports and who have always been too
intense about sports.
Lily Herman 2 (11:16):
But it's like, man, you're.
Lily Herman (11:17):
Doing like like very like entry level karting, and you've
already got parents who are telling their kids to like
smash their carts into hers, to like run her off,
and these are like ten eleven year olds, and so yeah,
it's just looking back, you're like, oh my god.
Lily Herman 2 (11:32):
Yeah, so Susie.
Lily Herman (11:33):
From this point, the other thing that comes up very
early on is money, especially when she decides she wants
to make a career of this. She feels called to,
you know, be a racing driver. I think she also
does a good job in here of explaining how much money.
I think we all know the stats of like you
need one hundred thousand dollars per karting season, or these
things that kind of come up if you kind of
partake in like F one media of any sort of
(11:55):
those numbers pop up. But she really lays down just
how hard it is to raise that type of money.
But you also kind of need to raise the right
type of money with the right kinds of people and
also be like networking along the way. And again, these
are like literal children who have to do that kind
of thing.
Indiah Porter (12:11):
I just think about how many skills they have to
develop at such a young age, from so social skills
to learning accounting skills, fundraising, grant writing, all of that.
Lily Herman (12:25):
Yeah, there were definitely some parts of that which I
had not thought about. Yeah, like how she's talking about
writing to all these people and to all these grants
and all these different associations just to get essentially pennies
from them. And also you can see too in this
larger question that people ask of, like you know, how
come there are women in F one. It's like, well,
pipeline guys, like starting with Karden, you can see how
many young girls and their families would be dissuaded from
(12:46):
continuing just based on how cost prohibitive this is. But
then on top of that, if you're already fighting just
to like have the money to race, you don't want
to go to the a circuit, like a local circuit
and deal with.
Lily Herman 2 (12:58):
Like sexist bs, you know, like on your weekends.
Lily Herman (13:01):
And she's talking about like going and racing on weekends,
coming in like that morning at six am and immediately
going to school on Mondays and trying to make that work.
Lily Herman 2 (13:09):
So that's just already going to drop a lot of people.
Indiah Porter (13:11):
Oh yeah, absolutely, we'll be right back after a quick break.
Lily Herman (13:19):
Okay, we are back and discussing Susie Wolfe's memoir Driven.
Susie eventually makes her way through karting, is very successful,
does make a lot of the correct, so to speak,
moves that she needs to, and starts racing in single
seaters in the early two thousands. She competes in a
couple of different series, but she had like Formula Reno
UK for a few seasons, she had like a failed
(13:41):
to race stint for British Formula three. But again is
already talking about issues with funding and just the culture
is kind of weird, and she's also at this point
trying to figure out do I want to do this
post high school? What does it look like if I'm
not kind of following more traditional markers of success like
going to college, graduating from college and whatnot. But I
(14:02):
think the big turn for her at this point is
she's like, I'm out of money. I'm like working multiple
jobs just to make ends meet and maybe get some
time on a sim and like just just do like
the basics. And she ends up through some really good
networking on her part, right place, right time, but also
obviously being an impressive driver, she ends up racing in
a motorsports series called DTM.
Lily Herman 2 (14:23):
Yeah, largely German.
Lily Herman (14:25):
Based motorsports series, and there's a lot of overlap of
F one drivers or people who are in the Formula
pipeline moving over to DTM. So Alex Alban actually in
the middle of when he was a Red Bull driver.
Then they're like, you're no longer a Red Bull driver.
Lily Herman 2 (14:38):
But we own you. He did a season of DTM.
Lily Herman (14:40):
Like it's one of those series that along with even
like a lot of endurance racing or other stuff where
you kind of hear of F one drivers moving in
and out of those series, either like right before they
enter F one or right after. But she actually does
find a ton of success in DTM as far as
like she's on you know teams that have partnerships with Mercedes.
She's there for six seasons until twenty eleven. But yeah,
(15:01):
do you remember India what she was saying during those chapters.
And I think this again is just a good example
of what women are up against. Why she felt like
she was stalling when she was in that series.
Indiah Porter (15:10):
She was up against a lot and it definitely goes
back to decisions that she had to make when she
was a teenager. For example, in school, when she was
designing between should she take French or German, her family
was saying you should take German because of all of
the auto manufacturers being German.
Producer Max Miller (15:27):
German was a hard language and I most definitely wasn't
naturally gifted, But my teacher, mister Stewart, was patient. He
acknowledged my effort. Even if my grasp of grammar wasn't perfect.
My color coded, immaculate notes might not have made me fluent,
but they showed I was trying.
Indiah Porter (15:44):
And of course that pays off for her because of
Mercedes being a German manufacturer. Then when it comes to
the actual car, they're saying, you might need a weight advantage,
so let's make the car twenty kilograms lighter, and her
saying very strongly, I don't need a weight advantage. I'm
going to be on the same playing field as all
of the men that I'm going to be up against them,
(16:06):
asking if she wants an extra neck guard, but her
saying no, I can't look weak in front of the men.
She is being faced at the assumption that because she's
a woman, and because she's a woman driver, that she
needs the car to be lighter or cushion softer, and
(16:27):
all of these things that the malee colleagues would not
be asked for.
Lily Herman 2 (16:31):
Yeah.
Lily Herman (16:31):
And what's also interesting at the same time, is it Yeah,
it does become this question of like, hey, you are
anatomically maybe a little different than your competitors, Like it's
okay sometimes to factor that in, but she obviously is
worried about doing that.
Producer Max Miller (16:44):
I walked into the garage, helmet in hand, standing still
for a moment as the activity buzzed around me, A
sea of men, all chatting in German, working well. I
stood there as the lone woman. It wasn't something I
often thought about, but right then I couldn't help but
feel it. They sized me up, glancing at me. Not
a bad way more like they were trying to figure
(17:05):
out how to be around me, and at the.
Lily Herman (17:08):
Same time too, she's having to prove herself. She's still
getting comments obviously from men, from random other people in
the paddock. There is a interestingly, one of her teammates
is Mattias Lauda. His father Niki Lauda. We actually talked
about it in a different episode of this show, and
he's very much like he's like leading a strike in
that episode and is like a comrade for the people
(17:29):
and the workers. So it's funny that in this anecdote
she has of him, he's like kind of a mildly
misogynistic jerk to her, and where he makes a comment
about her to his son, fully knowing she's standing next
to them and can hear them.
Producer Max Miller (17:42):
Nicki entered with his trademark briskness, giving the team a
quick nod before stopping in front of his son. Nicki
cast me a brief glance, then turned to Mattias. The
most important thing beat her, she.
Lily Herman (17:54):
Does say later on, years later, she tells in the
story and he apologizes.
Producer Max Miller (17:58):
Years later, I reminded Nikki of it, recounting how rude
he had been.
Speaker 5 (18:02):
He didn't deny it.
Producer Max Miller (18:03):
You're right, he admitted that really wasn't nice and I'm sorry,
but I didn't know you were going to be so quick.
Lily Herman (18:10):
It's interesting first of all, that we all contain multitudes,
including Niki Lauda, but also that on the one hand,
she's like, I want to be just like the guys
and like I want to prove myself and you know,
be seen as tough. But then also even if she
does all of that, still is coming up against all
of these different barriers, which again, like.
Indiah Porter (18:28):
That's a lot, it is a lot.
Lily Herman (18:31):
The other thing too, that I think does become clear
about her is she is a stellar networker, like she
seems to or at least how she paints herself, which
again another skill that like a lot of people don't have.
And maybe if you have the money it doesn't really matter,
but if you don't, you really have to be like
charming and understand the internal politics of teams and drivers
in these different organizations, So that that does really come
(18:52):
into play for her, again having to do it in
German because they're all you know, otherwise they don't really
socialize with you at that level. I know, YOHI and
our executive producer Max were excited. We do have to
talk about Toto because it is around this time that
Toto Wolf enters the picture, and I think also complicates the.
Lily Herman 2 (19:11):
Picture, Oh Toto. So yeah, that's how you sold me.
Lily Herman (19:14):
Quite frankly, a lot of motorsports memoirs are not great
or don't really have anything interesting to say, which is
mind boggling considering you'd think all these people would live
really wild lives. But the thing that sold me was
you had texted me a few photos of passages and
you were like, this is literally a romance novel.
Producer Max Miller (19:31):
Yes, I didn't know who he was, but he had
a certain aura about him. He was tall, dark, and
incredibly handsome. He moved from table to table talking to people,
and I found myself completely distracted watching him.
Lily Herman (19:47):
Speaking of Niki laudas Son Mattias, he is actually present
with the first time that Susie Wolf ever lays eyes
on Toto. So Susie and Mattias are like sitting, you know,
hanging out, eating, drinking, doing whatever, and Total kind of
comes into this room and immediately grabs Susie's attention, and so.
Producer Max Miller (20:06):
She writes, Mattias noticed turning to see what or who
had caught my attention. When he turned back, he said, Susie,
you're looking at him. I immediately flushed red caught off guard.
You like him, Mattias said, grinning as he leaned back
in his chair. Who is he, I asked, Mattias smirked.
He's Austrian, works in finance. His name's Toto Wolf, and
(20:28):
he added, with a dramatic pause. You have absolutely no
chance he's dating this Austria.
Indiah Porter (20:34):
Incredible. I was reading that in Scotland. There's rain happening
in the background, it's kind of foggy. I'm there with
a cup of tea. I'm crawled up with the blanket
and I'm there just kicking my seat and giggling.
Yochai Maital (20:49):
Susie likes the challenge.
Lily Herman (20:51):
Yeah, I will say, tis loud. I know nothing about
him other than what was in this book. What a
menace like his father's like, You're never no chance in
Helle dating this Austria. Incredible line that is that is
straight up like the end of a chapter that you
would see in fact, in a work of romantic fiction. Yes,
so Toto does write a reflection for this book, and
(21:12):
in the way he talks about Susie, he seems like
he is very much equally enamored. He wrote, just I
picked I picked out one of many many quotes in here.
He said, from the first conversation it was a oh,
I don't know this French word coude foodrey hmm. Anyway,
that moment when someone steps into your thoughts and doesn't leave.
She saw me clearly, and I saw her. Our connection
(21:33):
was instinctive. We were soulmates from the beginning.
Lily Herman 2 (21:35):
I mean, a real yearner.
Lily Herman (21:38):
It's like at such odds with what what I think
of as total wolf right in the paddock. Right, he's
in the garage, he's got his arms crossed, he's so
big and imposing.
Indiah Porter (21:46):
He's taking headphones and just smashing them against the table.
Lily Herman (21:49):
Yeah, and yelling like, no, Michael, No, that's what I
that's what I think of. And then you get him
in this book being like, this is the love of
my life, my soulmate. And then and then she owing
the also wrote sometimes I think she was made for me,
though perhaps the truth is we were made for each other.
Indiah Porter (22:05):
And the book he also talks about when he proposed
to her, that he bought the engagement ring six weeks
after they.
Lily Herman (22:11):
Met, like I just incredible, also incredible for Toto's image.
Lily Herman 2 (22:15):
I will say this book, yes, Joahi is like is
speechless when you know, you know, yeah, there you go.
Lily Herman (22:20):
I am not partnered at the moment, so like I'm like,
that's great, happy for everyone, I guess. So I will
say though that the total of it all and the
reason we bring him up, I do think these quotes
are like fabulous and lovely. Though is that there is
this added complication with him which she doesn't really know
how to contend with as she's talking about it in
the book, This idea of her trying to be like, yeah,
(22:41):
he's super rich, and that definitely opened some doors. But
also like I'm good at networking. I have to at
the end of the day, like still be like good
at racing things to be even considered no matter how
rich my boyfriend turned fiance turned husband is. And I
do understand some of the arguments that someone likes U
shouldn't have to justify her place as an executive or
(23:02):
a business person in motorsports simply because of who her
husband is. But to me, it's also hard to overlook
the fact that like this isn't just some random rich
dude or a very minor player in the motorsports world.
He is the team principal, CEO and part owner of
one of the most successful Formula one teams in history,
particularly of the twenty first century. So that kind of
(23:24):
thing does in fact matter and should factor in.
Indiah Porter (23:26):
Yes, And the team that you're involved with is also,
of course connected to your boyfriend turned fiance turned husband
and everything that you're learning about how to become a
Formula A team principal, and then eventually as we go
into ATHLN academy, you're all learning that from him. Of course,
(23:48):
she is probably the best stated woman for the job.
But what those opportunities have happened if she didn't have
an enormous backing from her husband and the financial as well.
Lily Herman (24:00):
Yeah, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
All right, we are back the big I think, like
thrust and like climax of Susie's racing career is she
does get sick of DTM after a while, She's stuck
(24:21):
in a very mid car. She feels like there's no
real mobility for her. Everyone's selling her. Yeah, you're gonna
need to raise a lot more money or get all
these other sponsorship opportunities other things just to keep going,
and she just decides it's really not worth it. There's
some other stops and starts as far as her trying
to get other opportunities going and all of this to say. Eventually, though,
(24:41):
she does get in touch with the Williams Formula One team,
and long story short, in twenty fourteen, she becomes the
first woman since nineteen ninety two to participate in a
Formula one race weekend, which is, if you think about
it, it is wild. But if you are aged thirty four
or younger, Susie Wolf is the only woman in your
(25:02):
lifetime who has driven an actual F one car as
part of an actual race weekend, that.
Indiah Porter (25:08):
Is actually wild to think about. Yeah, like wild and incredible.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Yeah.
Producer Max Miller (25:12):
I ended the session just point two seconds off Felipe
Masa in the other Williams car. It was the proudest
moment of my career, not just because I had taken
to the track under the weight of so much expectation,
knowing I couldn't crash, knowing I had to hand the
car back intact, but because I had proved something real.
A woman could be competitive in Formula.
Lily Herman (25:33):
One, and there hasn't been another woman since then, And
I also add to that, someone's gonna be like, but
this woman drove the car again. There's been women who
have Cutton to drive like retrofitted cars that are basically
like old F one cars, but not during race weekends.
They were like exhibition sort of things. This was during
like a free practice, a scheduled free practice in the
sport during a weekend. So and she got to do
(25:53):
it again, I believe in in twenty fifteen. But yeah,
but that kind of is the end of the road they,
you know. I think also something that I was thinking
about a lot here and then also it kind of
leads back to some of the issues that I think
Susie faces now being on the business and operation side,
is she runs in the issue of people are kind
of like, yeah, we'll let you be like a development
driver in F one or like a sim driver or
(26:16):
something like that. But she finds very quickly that no
one is going to really give her a true shot,
and instead she could easily be sort of tokenized and
used to be marketed as like, oh, we do employ
a woman, like look, how cool and progressive, but there's
no actual path for her to drive these cars.
Indiah Porter (26:33):
Seriously, which is so unfortunate because if that is happening
to someone who is the wife of a team principal
of one of the most successful teams in Formula one
and someone who was a powerhouse for basically a decade almost,
then let's think about what's happening to basically any other
woman who is trying to get into motorsports, who is
(26:55):
in motorsports or trying to also carve that path back
into F one.
Lily Herman (27:00):
It's really depressing and also depressing that like everyone's like,
no she could.
Lily Herman 2 (27:05):
It's like they wouldn't even do.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
It for her.
Yochai Maital (27:08):
Yeah, I don't really understand it.
Lily Herman (27:11):
Sexism yo, hi, yeah, thank you. Okay, So as we
see this path, I'm not surprised because other other women
in motorsports made a similar transition as she did, where
she is like, Okay, you know what, I think, I'm
at the end of the line for a professional racing career.
I'm going to transition more to like the business side,
(27:31):
the operations side. And she also does some like like
nonprofity stuff, right, she has that that org called like
dare to be different to get women involved in motorsports
at like all parts of the sport.
Lily Herman 2 (27:42):
Or like in every series.
Lily Herman (27:43):
And stuff like that, Okay, questionable how effective it is.
But she also, as you were saying India, she does
become team principal and later CEO of the Formula E
team Venturi Racing. She does help them, over the course
of several seasons, become more and more successful. And that
she was also employing a third of her team were women,
which some might say, like a third that's still less
(28:05):
than like parody, but like compared to other motorsports teams,
both in Formula E and F one in any other series,
like that's that's unheard of in most spaces. And then she,
starting with the twenty twenty three season, becomes the managing
director of a support series in Formula One called F
(28:27):
one Academy.
Indiah Porter (28:28):
Ah. I remember before the F one Academy, we had
the W series, which was the all female series, which
was dominated by the driver Jamie Chadwick, and she won
basically every single year that they had until she said,
this is not sustainable and I cannot do this anymore.
(28:49):
I need something to help me go to the next level,
to go to another series, to do something. So they
and by they I mean F one Slash the FIA
got red of it, it came back and rebranded as
F one Academy.
Lily Herman (29:06):
The Jamie Chadwick of it all, I think is perfect
very important because I think she represents this, this next
generation below Susie and how they are dealing with the
exact same bs that like Susie had to deal with
and women before her had to deal with.
Lily Herman 2 (29:18):
So it does show this, like.
Lily Herman (29:20):
Again not to sound too much like a freshman seminar
on feminism in college, you could see the generations of
like sexism, misogyny, and obstacles that keep these women out.
And if we zoom in on the W series specifically,
since it was a precursor to the F one Academy
as a women's centric, lower level racing championship, it had
a lot of issues, like a lot of issues. One, Yeah,
(29:42):
there was no buy in financially from F one, so
all of their funding had to come from outside external sources.
So already a weird cell and F one was just like, yeah,
we'll let you race as a support So for people
who've never been to an F one race weekend, or
maybe don't pay attention to other series other than Formula One,
if you go during a race weekend, there are several
(30:02):
junior races happening in the hours before an F one
race or before qualifying, so you could see anything, right like,
So W series is one of many different types of
support series. They all don't race at every single race
during the F one season on the calendar, but it's
just like a good way to see up and coming drivers.
Lily Herman 2 (30:17):
It's fun, it's entertaining. I remember one.
Lily Herman (30:19):
Year at one of the Canadian Grand Prix years i went,
there was just like it was just like raining like
the entire like the entire weekend, and so you're just
watching these like teenagers who are doing you know, like
like very very junior level racing, just like wiping out
everywhere and likely no one was harmed, but it was
very entertaining and it was sort of like goody. So
W Series is one of these But yeah, as you
(30:41):
were saying, they run into many issues. The first problem
they find is that there are so few women who
can afford to be in this series and are also
at a certain caliber of driver. So you have this
driver Jamie Chadwick, who wins all three years that this
series is in existence. And that's in the large part
because there's not a ton of competition for her. She's
just by far and away much more talented, has maybe
(31:03):
had more resourcing than even just other women. And so
the series really runs the gamut as far as the
experience and skill level, more so than you'd find in
you know, F two, F three, even when you factor
in like rich kids who just kind of got a
seat kind of thing. On top of that, it is
fronted by a bunch of people where you're like, I
don't know if this is the best person to like
represent like women in motorsports, Like the former driver David Colthard,
(31:27):
who Yo, how you can find the clip of this
He's he's made comments about women that are not the
best and has also never like said sorry for them him,
like commenting on like a female presenter's nipples.
Yochai Maital (31:36):
You've been practicing with that pit lane speedlimited.
Indiah Porter (31:39):
Yeah, I have. I've just been imagining Asian nipples, so
I'm being a bit more gentle with it when I
take my finger off at the end of the pitlane.
Yochai Maital (31:45):
Very much, Yes, yeah, thanks very much indeed for that one, David,
That's that's fantastic.
Lily Herman (31:51):
So like not the guy you want to be one
of the figureheads of the women's only racing series not
a great look. And then yeah, on top of that,
because there was no real buy in coming from F
one as an organization or any of the teams, it
was always kind of treated as this redheaded step child
in the support series family.
Lily Herman 2 (32:12):
There was nowhere for these drivers to go right.
Lily Herman (32:14):
Even if you're Jamie Chadwick and you won it, that
didn't really mean anything. It didn't lead to anything. So
this series eventually does fold. It doesn't even finish its
third full season. It actually just has to stop a
couple of races before the end, which is also depressing.
People were outraged. Susie does talk about this, but of
course she puts her own spin on it. All this
information I just said is very much left out or
is kind of washed over and how she discusses her
(32:35):
in her book for obvious reasons. But what they come
up with is we want to have this new women's
racing series F one Academy. It's going to have buy
in from both F one, the overarching organization, as well
as all then ten teams on the grid.
Lily Herman 2 (32:49):
It's going to be a.
Lily Herman (32:50):
Formula four level women's only racing series. They really try
to hammer home kind of what level of drivers should
be in here. And they also are like, we're going
to bring in external sponsors, particularly those that maybe haven't
felt the most welcome or aren't really a focus in
F one, so for instance, beauty brands. And we'll get
to why this also becomes thorny in a second. But
again Susie's version doesn't mention a few key things like,
(33:11):
for instance, while Formula one subsidizes the cost of each car,
Formula one Academy drivers still need to contribute one hundred
thousand euros of their own money or from their side
for this, so obviously very cost prohibitive.
Indiah Porter (33:25):
Many many people just a casual one hundred thousand I
have lying around.
Lily Herman (33:30):
I don't care if it's euros, dollars, pounds, the Canadian dollar,
Like that's a lot of money I do not possess
personally to just spend.
Indiah Porter (33:39):
They say, get to Western Union and make sure the
wire goes.
Lily Herman 2 (33:41):
Through literally literally.
Lily Herman (33:45):
And also I will say I've heard behind the scenes
like this idea of like the ten teams are also
supportive of this. I've heard some things behind the scenes
where there's a again, depending on the team and the leadership,
some eye rolling of like, yeah, we have to support
this like women thing, but of course publicly everyone's no,
women are great, we love women.
Lily Herman 2 (34:02):
I have a daughter, like this is important.
Indiah Porter (34:04):
You know.
Lily Herman (34:05):
Another thing that starts to come up, which is President
Susie's book, and it's interesting again to watch her talk
about this in the early chapters and then kind of
skirt around it or put a real nice shine to
it at the end is sponsorship. And how for one thing,
you do have sponsors like Charlotte Tilbury entering F one
Academy when I've never seen Charlotte Tilbury set foot in
(34:26):
the Formula one paddock. You do have Tommy Hill figure
which is at the time was a Mercedes sponsor. It
does ask a lot of questions though about fashion and
beauty sponsorships because they used to be such a rarity
enough one, and I feel like there's only recently, in
the past few years been a huge increase in the
number that we see in the sport. So like a
couple of years ago it felt revolutionary when Alex Albon
(34:48):
did a few sponsored Sera V videos with his then
girlfriend now fiance Lily He And now we have Charlott
Clair joining Carlo Science as a Laurel Paris ambassador. And
then on top of that, people have pointed out like, hey,
it seems like certain drivers that maybe fit more traditional
beauty standards are the ones getting these opportunities, are the
(35:10):
ones getting profiled in magazines over maybe some of the
more much more successful drivers. And isn't that like a
very awkward, tenuous situation for all involved?
Indiah Porter (35:19):
Yeah, if the F one Academy wants to be the
force in this space, that's fighting against the idea that
women are meek and women are small, and women you
don't have to be the stereotypical blonde barbie and look
this way and you know, can rough house it and
be right there with the men. Then is bring in
a sponsor like Charlotte Tilberry and then putting the driver
(35:44):
who maybe has the most followers or fits a certain
vibe the best message that you want to be sending.
Lily Herman 2 (35:50):
Yeah, I was going to say too.
Lily Herman (35:51):
The other thing that comes up, there was one season
where this was like all over the place if you
were in the very online corners of the F one
Internet was the fact that there was a race where
it was it was in Miami, and you had all
of these big celebrities obviously at F one and in
the F one pattic and out, you know, in all
corners of the F one space. And then you just
had a bunch of Formula one wags show. So wives
(36:13):
and girlfriends show up to F one Academy to cheer
them all, and everyone's like, this is very weird that
like y'all were able to get like legit celebrities some
of the biggest names we have, like Brad Pitt or
Tom Cruiser whoever to F one, But no one you
couldn't like pay or get anyone to come over to
F one Academy. And it's like a weird look when
it's like the girlfriends are here to cheer them all.
You know, it was just like a very a very
(36:36):
strange series of events.
Indiah Porter (36:39):
Yeah, it is weird, because why can't you encourage the
drivers to come over or the driver stutter corresponding with
your team to come over.
Lily Herman (36:48):
I think they eventually got the message and started doing that.
But of course, which driver was the first to come
over to Susie Wolfe's UH Racing series and show his support?
Indiah Porter (36:56):
King Louis Hamilton.
Lily Herman (36:58):
He said, we have been like friends since we were
not going to know each other on carts and I'm
here to support, and then he would show up with
like Kendall Jenner. Of course this is made ironic now
that he is, as of this recording, potentially being seen
with Kim Kardashian, the Kardashian Jenner's. But so all this
to say, Susie Wolf still the managing director of F
(37:19):
one Academy as of this recording, or when it comes out,
it will be in its fourth season. So I'm interested
to see though, because the pressure is on them. The
first couple of years, there's some grace, you know, as
they're figuring it out and trying to figure out broadcasting
and sponsorship deals and which drivers they have and how
they advance. But I think now that there's been a
couple of years, people are now asking the big question of, well,
(37:40):
what happened all these women now that they go through
this series. Is anyone actually advancing in part because of it?
Is anyone crediting it for any success or are we
just seeing a lot of women have this nice little
moment for a season or two and then going back
to whatever they were doing before, In many cases that
being a whole lot of nothing. As far as racing
is concerned, which we know it's not their fault, but
(38:01):
that's just the predicament they're in.
Indiah Porter (38:03):
And then it's one of those things where you're asking yourself,
what would it look like for the teams to be
more involved in their drivers even after the contract ends,
or what does it look like to actually go and
support them and to have them do were outreach and
to actually be wholly involved in their driver's lives and
what they do after the F one Academy.
Lily Herman (38:24):
Yeah, Dorian Pan who just won last season of F
one Academy is now technically a development driver I believe
at Mercedes, But like, what does that mean? How does
that get her into an F one car during a
race weekend? It's not her currently?
Lily Herman 2 (38:36):
Like when will it? Will it be her or or
someone like her?
Indiah Porter (38:39):
I mean, Mick Schumacher was a development driver.
Lily Herman (38:43):
He got in that car and then he got in
that hospital two seasons and he just kept beIN in it.
He saw every wall on that grid and not in
a good way.
Indiah Porter (38:51):
Yeah.
Lily Herman (38:53):
But yeah, I'm I'm at a loss and I'm depressed,
and I am happy though, as I said that Susie
wrote this book and if even if at the end Americ,
it's a little too like don't what's the word I
looking for it? It just yeah, it definitely gleazes over
a lot of issues. But I see, given her current
position and background, why she wouldn't want to jeopardize certain
(39:14):
relationships or things by maybe telling the truth a little
more in that part. But I did appreciate that she
was pretty honest about especially the earlier part of her life,
just how she ended up even not being a racer
after a certain point.
Lily Herman 2 (39:27):
So I do appreciate that, Susy Wolf.
Indiah Porter (39:29):
If you ever want to talk to Lily and I
of her a class of you know someonean bloc and
you just really want to spill it, We're here for you.
Lily Herman 2 (39:39):
On all the gossip. I want all the TV. I
want to know all the names. I want full names.
I want a full government name.
Indiah Porter (39:45):
We'll sign an NDA.
Lily Herman 2 (39:47):
I will happily sign an NDA for that.
Lily Herman (39:50):
A huge thank you to India Porter for coming on
today to chat about this book and for even suggesting
that I read it. And again, if you haven't listened
to our conversation about women in Motorsports with riber Catherine Legg,
I highly highly recommend it. She is rerutally honest, and
I really appreciated her insights seeing as, unlike me.
Lily Herman 2 (40:07):
She has actually driven a race car. YOHI we have
now wrapped.
Lily Herman (40:11):
Up two episodes about women in motorsports, which sounds like
the perfect time for you to jump in.
Lily Herman 2 (40:16):
Any thoughts, any remaining concluding ideas.
Yochai Maital (40:20):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I did. I read through the
book and I enjoyed reading it, I have to say,
And I was even more like enriched by your conversation
with India, Like I felt like I had another layer
and I listened after the recording, so that was actually
kind of cool. Honestly, I feel like it's kind of
a cross. The book is a bit of a cross
between a self help book and a memoir.
Lily Herman 2 (40:42):
Yeah.
Yochai Maital (40:42):
Some of the quotes there from the book are straight
out of like a Tony Robbins book.
Indiah Porter (40:46):
You know.
Yochai Maital (40:46):
It's like for me, anyone who puts themselves in the ring,
whatever they whether they win or lose, deserves respect the
real challenges in doing and taking that risk, you know.
Or my favorite cheesey quote there, it was a hard
earned lesson. Here, I have it written down. It was
a hard earned lesson. When the going gets tough, the
(41:07):
tough get going.
Lily Herman (41:09):
I take it you read some Tony Robbins in your day,
given that you're like, you're pulling these quotes.
Lily Herman 2 (41:14):
Out, man, don't help me.
Yochai Maital (41:16):
Don't help me now, really, come on, come on, man.
Lily Herman 2 (41:19):
I agree though, So that was.
Yochai Maital (41:21):
One one slight criticism and then the other criticism. I
don't know if you're going to make me cut this
or not, but I have done my share of parenting
in life, and maybe, as some of our listeners can imagine,
being like a podcaster living in New York, my wife
is the main breadwinner of our family, and I do
a lot of child rearing, and it was a little
hard for me to hear Susie bitch about parenting while
(41:45):
having like.
Lily Herman (41:45):
A private jet, access to a lot of things private.
Yochai Maital (41:49):
Jet and a nanny there at her Beckham call and
like one kid.
Indiah Porter (41:53):
It's like, do me a faith.
Lily Herman (41:57):
I am not a parent, so obviously I cannot comment
from a parentingtive. I do have a real gaggle of
nephews around me, but so I see what the people
are about.
Yochai Maital (42:05):
And my biggest personal takeaway from the book is that
I am just really really waiting to read Toto's book.
Lily Herman (42:14):
Well, thank you Yohi for doing what needed to be
done aka being a man who gave insights on a
women's career, life and trajectory.
Yochai Maital (42:22):
Always here to man explain Lily whenever you need an
explanation about anything.
Lily Herman 2 (42:27):
I'll keep that in mind. That's our show.
Lily Herman (42:30):
Our next episode will come out on May twentieth, ahead
of the Canadian Grand Prix, and we're going to dive
into a topic I've been wanting to cover for a while,
and that is what on Earth is the Cadillac.
Lily Herman 2 (42:42):
Formula One team?
Yochai Maital (42:43):
There is a Cadillac team.
Lily Herman (42:44):
No Grip is hosted by me Lily Herman and produced,
edited and sound designed by Johai Metal. Max Miller is
our executive producer. We get additional production support from Poldu
Special thanks to Ben Riskin at Room Tone at iHeart
shant Tone is executive producer, and thank you to Liam
Bahar for additional research and help on this episode. Be
sure to give this show a five star rating and review.
(43:06):
Wherever you're listening, you can follow me at Lily K
Herman on Instagram and follow us at No Grip Podcast
on Instagram and TikTok
So, as promised, welcome to our book Club bonus episode
where we are discussing racing driver turned Formula one Academy
managing director Susie Wolf's memoir Driven. And as I said
in our Kaptain like episode, yes, this is the second
time we have a media property called Driven. It came
out in the UK in the fall of twenty twenty five,
(00:21):
but it did just come out here in the States
in late April.
Lily Herman 2 (00:25):
So if you are.
Lily Herman (00:26):
Listening to this episode without having turned on our previous
episode with racing driver Catherine leg I would highly recommend it.
Lily Herman 2 (00:32):
It's a great companion.
Lily Herman (00:33):
Conversation about the Formula one Academy, about women in motorsports
at large, and about what's missing right, like why don't
we see a lot of women in motorsports and particularly
in Formula one. But I also think it is worth
noting because I know anytime we talk about a piece
of media, some people are like, eh, spoilers, like should
I read or watch or whatever? You know beforehand, you
do not have to have read this book to listen
(00:54):
to this episode. I feel like memoirs, there's not often
not much to spoil in memoirs person, but especially in
a book like this, It's not really about revelations, right,
It's more Susie giving her thoughts on what we I
think as a public generally already know about her or know,
you know, things that transpired in her life. So if
you're curious about her career or her background and maybe
(01:16):
know a little bit about her, but haven't ever really
heard too much, you know that goes in deep.
Lily Herman 2 (01:20):
I think this will give you the gist.
Indiah Porter (01:23):
I have your water bottle, I have my Oh yes.
Lily Herman 2 (01:26):
You have your cuddel.
Lily Herman (01:29):
Today though, I'm excited to have Formula one fan and
Lewis Hamilton enthusiast India Porter here to discuss the book.
Lily Herman 2 (01:35):
She actually got this.
Lily Herman (01:37):
Memoir when it was first released in the UK and
was the person who originally texted me saying, hey, this
actually is worth reading. Like, there are things in this book.
It's not just sort of a vanity memoir that doesn't
give you anything. So India welcome. Thank you so much
for doing this. We are going to have so much fun.
Indiah Porter (01:53):
Hi, Lily, thank you so much for having me here.
I'm so excited to talk with you.
Lily Herman (01:56):
Do you remember how we first met?
Indiah Porter (01:59):
I actually remember we met at the Montreal Grand Prix.
Oh gosh, I don't even remember how many years ago
it was, but I remember quite literally bumping into you
after leaving one of the free practices and going you
look familiar. Would you like to go hang out with
some other friends tonight? And we hung out and have
(02:21):
been friends ever again.
Lily Herman 2 (02:22):
I got to love the Canadian Grand Prix.
Lily Herman (02:24):
But anyway, onto what we are actually here to talk
about today. When you think of Susie Wolf, what are
you thinking of? Off the bat?
Indiah Porter (02:31):
Oh? When I think of Susie Wolf, I think of
a Scottish girl boss who wants to be accepted by
a lot of people and loved and wants to have
women both at the table with men, but also wants
to build a table for women. And she's interesting, all right.
Lily Herman (02:54):
So let's dipe into the first part of the book,
which is all about Susie's upbringing in the early part
of her motor sports career.
Lily Herman 2 (03:01):
There's a lot going on there.
Lily Herman (03:03):
It's sort of mixed as far as like I have,
like to use the very American phrase like picked myself
up by the bootstraps and like made this work.
Lily Herman 2 (03:10):
And yet also I am.
Lily Herman (03:11):
This like powerful woman who also has like deep connections
to f one, including being married to a guy who's
very important to the sport of f one. But you know,
that's kind of another complicating factor of her like existence
in the paddock. But I guess to dive into the
basics of Susie Wolf as we as we begin this journey.
(03:34):
So Susie Wolf, as you said, is Scottish. She was
born and raised in the Scottish Highlands, which I will
admit I read a lot of romance novels, historical romances
that take place in the Scottis Highlands. It's kind of
a subgenre of the subgenre of historical so that is
the extent of my Scotland knowledge. And her parents they
(03:55):
owned I think it's like a it's like a motorbike
dealership or something.
Indiah Porter (03:59):
Yes, her parents owned a motorbikes shop and they sold
German and British motorbikes. Yeah, and that's how she started
getting into racing motorbikes and motocross.
Lily Herman (04:12):
And I think the other thing too that she mentions
is that while all of that's going on, her mother
also I believe, runs a boutique with her grandma or
something to that effect. She's sowing the seeds of this
like dichotomy of like, you know, a woman who loves
racing but also glothes like and how do those two
worlds exist.
Indiah Porter (04:28):
Yes, it's trying to be relatable to the average.
Lily Herman 2 (04:31):
Girl, Yeah for sure.
Lily Herman (04:32):
And also she notes at this point that a lot
of her racing gear and kits and whatnot are pink,
and it's a theme that comes.
Lily Herman 2 (04:39):
Back throughout the book.
Lily Herman (04:41):
So ideally we play parts of Susie's actual audiobooks, you
could hear her tell the story of her life in
her beautiful Scottish accent. But since we'd really like to
not get sued, we can't do that. Luckily, we have
the next best thing that's definitely a perfect substitute, and
that is our executive producer, Max Miller, stepping in and
reading these passages in his sturdy American accent. You definitely
(05:03):
will not be able to tell the difference whatsoever.
Producer Max Miller (05:06):
Mom and Dad had custom wetsuits made for us by
a local company. What thrilled me most wasn't the practicality,
but the fact that I got to choose the colors.
At last, I could be like my prized ocean Snorkel
Barbie with her pink and light blue wetsuit just like
her I adored anything pink, So.
Lily Herman (05:25):
Susie Wolf her family, they're like a very tight family unit.
That's also like something that she really tries to hammer
home very early on in her book. She eventually makes
her way to actual karting at the age of eight,
and then is eventually named the British Woman kart Racing
Driver of the Year in nineteen ninety six. However, she
(05:46):
has these little anecdotes of like early misogyny and sexism
that she experiences even as an older kid into her
early adolescence.
Indiah Porter (05:55):
Yes, throughout her whole life she has painted herself as
an underdog when it comes to doing motocross and then
eventually switching into karting being the only girl there and
then next Also when she would do things such as swimming,
she was always either chosen last or not picked. This
(06:15):
kind of frames the story as heard being the David
going up against Goliath.
Lily Herman 2 (06:21):
Yeah, it's artfully done.
Lily Herman (06:22):
Like she kind of starts sprinkling in where things start
to go from Oh, I'm just having fun with like
a bunch of other kids, and they all happen to
be boys too. You know, older boys are starting to
make odd comments that are sexist or commenting on her body,
or parents are literally saying to their young boys like
you need to beat the girl, or she's getting hit
more when she's out karting. During races.
Producer Max Miller (06:43):
Some dads couldn't resist having a go at their sons
when I beat them, saying things like I can't believe
you let.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
A girl beat you.
Producer Max Miller (06:49):
You could see the frustration on their faces, and it
only made the boys push harder. Those comments were like
throwing petrol on a fire.
Lily Herman (06:57):
She starts to slowly realize like, oh, I might be
on a different path than everyone else who's racing at
this point. And this is going on when she's only
a child, or like very early in her preteens or
early teens, and she's already kind of experiencing that her
path is probably going to be a little bit different
than everyone else's.
Producer Max Miller (07:17):
I ditched the pink and bought a blue and white
suit with a sparkling silver stripe. The silver maybe was
the smallest nod to femininity, like a whisper of who
I was, but mostly it was blue. With my helmet on,
I could be easily mistaken for a boy. This was
more than a change of clothes. It was a metamorphosis.
I had to become one of them. Like Barbie. My
(07:40):
pink ray suit was packed in a storage box and
tucked away in the loft.
Lily Herman (07:45):
Something I find very interesting about this book is, Yes,
total Wolf. Her eventual husband comes in the back half,
and he's talked about a lot, and their story is
very much written as a romance novel, which I of
course love. But the other character who appears from literally
Toto Wolf's forward for this book and then very early
on in Susie's story, is a certain Lewis Hamilton begins
(08:05):
to appear.
Indiah Porter (08:06):
Yes, the undisfeted although sometimes disputed, goat of Formula one.
Lily Herman (08:12):
And also importantly he is the only black driver who's
ever been in the sport. Yes, also a fashion icon.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
Then came the Champagne.
Producer Max Miller (08:21):
Lewis, already well versed in celebrations with eight podium finishes
and five wins in that season, had to help me
open the bottle before I could join in. It was
a small thing, but it summed up where I was
just starting to find my place.
Lily Herman (08:35):
But I bring it up only because Lewis and Susie
probably have more in common as far as being othered
on any grid that they were on, more so than
probably most people there. And also if you compare for instance,
our pal Lancetroll and his socioeconomic upbringing compared to Lewis's
and then also Susie's, like Lewis and Susie have a
lot more in common. And I think it also makes
(08:56):
it all the more miraculous in some ways that Lewis
did in fact get on the grid. Like everything is
at the end of the day, like it's money, but
it's also a little bit of luck and like if
the correct person happens to be there at the right time,
Like how many things wouldn't have gone a certain way
if one one guy hadn't shown up to a race
and being.
Lily Herman 2 (09:12):
Like that kid's pretty good, like or same for Susie too.
Lily Herman (09:15):
But you know, it's it's just interesting to me because
from the get go he is kind of threaded throughout
the story in various ways.
Indiah Porter (09:22):
He is And this, honestly was probably my favorite part
of the book, is when she is talking about her
upbringing and these run ends with Lewis, because I think
it is the most relatable party thing for a lot
of young people, especially for myself as black woman. Fun fact, y'all.
I used to play ice hockey and I also rode,
and those are both predominantly white sports, especially white male
(09:46):
dominated sports. And the team I played ice hockey with
was predominantly black and Latino kids in Philadelphia. So I
know what it's like when we would show up at
other ranks and you would even have the refs and
the parents go, oh, like, this is the team we're
playing against. So I definitely can relate to Susie and
(10:08):
Lewis and this part of the book when they're thinking, oh,
I'm definitely being hothered both by the people I'm supposed
to be against, the people who are supposed to be
refereeing or calling the sport, or even the parents who
are supposed to be the moral overlords of everything as well.
(10:29):
So again, the first third of the book I think
was definitely the strongest slash, best slash, I think, most
relatable part for a lot of people.
Lily Herman (10:40):
I do think that she does a better job than
most in other motorsports memoirs and whatnot that I've read.
I'm kind of explaining yet, like the little ways that
sexism or inequality really comes in very early on.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
I suddenly heard my name over the loudspeaker. Susi started
to the podium ceremony.
Producer Max Miller (10:56):
Confused, I ran to the main stage. First place, second,
and third trophies were handed out. Then I was called
up top female driver in the world. My face burned
with embarrassment.
Lily Herman (11:09):
Even parents making comments where yes, we know that there
are crappy parents out there and parents who are way
too intense about sports and who have always been too
intense about sports.
Lily Herman 2 (11:16):
But it's like, man, you're.
Lily Herman (11:17):
Doing like like very like entry level karting, and you've
already got parents who are telling their kids to like
smash their carts into hers, to like run her off,
and these are like ten eleven year olds, and so yeah,
it's just looking back, you're like, oh my god.
Lily Herman 2 (11:32):
Yeah, so Susie.
Lily Herman (11:33):
From this point, the other thing that comes up very
early on is money, especially when she decides she wants
to make a career of this. She feels called to,
you know, be a racing driver. I think she also
does a good job in here of explaining how much money.
I think we all know the stats of like you
need one hundred thousand dollars per karting season, or these
things that kind of come up if you kind of
partake in like F one media of any sort of
(11:55):
those numbers pop up. But she really lays down just
how hard it is to raise that type of money.
But you also kind of need to raise the right
type of money with the right kinds of people and
also be like networking along the way. And again, these
are like literal children who have to do that kind
of thing.
Indiah Porter (12:11):
I just think about how many skills they have to
develop at such a young age, from so social skills
to learning accounting skills, fundraising, grant writing, all of that.
Lily Herman (12:25):
Yeah, there were definitely some parts of that which I
had not thought about. Yeah, like how she's talking about
writing to all these people and to all these grants
and all these different associations just to get essentially pennies
from them. And also you can see too in this
larger question that people ask of, like you know, how
come there are women in F one. It's like, well,
pipeline guys, like starting with Karden, you can see how
many young girls and their families would be dissuaded from
(12:46):
continuing just based on how cost prohibitive this is. But
then on top of that, if you're already fighting just
to like have the money to race, you don't want
to go to the a circuit, like a local circuit
and deal with.
Lily Herman 2 (12:58):
Like sexist bs, you know, like on your weekends.
Lily Herman (13:01):
And she's talking about like going and racing on weekends,
coming in like that morning at six am and immediately
going to school on Mondays and trying to make that work.
Lily Herman 2 (13:09):
So that's just already going to drop a lot of people.
Indiah Porter (13:11):
Oh yeah, absolutely, we'll be right back after a quick break.
Lily Herman (13:19):
Okay, we are back and discussing Susie Wolfe's memoir Driven.
Susie eventually makes her way through karting, is very successful,
does make a lot of the correct, so to speak,
moves that she needs to, and starts racing in single
seaters in the early two thousands. She competes in a
couple of different series, but she had like Formula Reno
UK for a few seasons, she had like a failed
(13:41):
to race stint for British Formula three. But again is
already talking about issues with funding and just the culture
is kind of weird, and she's also at this point
trying to figure out do I want to do this
post high school? What does it look like if I'm
not kind of following more traditional markers of success like
going to college, graduating from college and whatnot. But I
(14:02):
think the big turn for her at this point is
she's like, I'm out of money. I'm like working multiple
jobs just to make ends meet and maybe get some
time on a sim and like just just do like
the basics. And she ends up through some really good
networking on her part, right place, right time, but also
obviously being an impressive driver, she ends up racing in
a motorsports series called DTM.
Lily Herman 2 (14:23):
Yeah, largely German.
Lily Herman (14:25):
Based motorsports series, and there's a lot of overlap of
F one drivers or people who are in the Formula
pipeline moving over to DTM. So Alex Alban actually in
the middle of when he was a Red Bull driver.
Then they're like, you're no longer a Red Bull driver.
Lily Herman 2 (14:38):
But we own you. He did a season of DTM.
Lily Herman (14:40):
Like it's one of those series that along with even
like a lot of endurance racing or other stuff where
you kind of hear of F one drivers moving in
and out of those series, either like right before they
enter F one or right after. But she actually does
find a ton of success in DTM as far as
like she's on you know teams that have partnerships with Mercedes.
She's there for six seasons until twenty eleven. But yeah,
(15:01):
do you remember India what she was saying during those chapters.
And I think this again is just a good example
of what women are up against. Why she felt like
she was stalling when she was in that series.
Indiah Porter (15:10):
She was up against a lot and it definitely goes
back to decisions that she had to make when she
was a teenager. For example, in school, when she was
designing between should she take French or German, her family
was saying you should take German because of all of
the auto manufacturers being German.
Producer Max Miller (15:27):
German was a hard language and I most definitely wasn't
naturally gifted, But my teacher, mister Stewart, was patient. He
acknowledged my effort. Even if my grasp of grammar wasn't perfect.
My color coded, immaculate notes might not have made me fluent,
but they showed I was trying.
Indiah Porter (15:44):
And of course that pays off for her because of
Mercedes being a German manufacturer. Then when it comes to
the actual car, they're saying, you might need a weight advantage,
so let's make the car twenty kilograms lighter, and her
saying very strongly, I don't need a weight advantage. I'm
going to be on the same playing field as all
of the men that I'm going to be up against them,
(16:06):
asking if she wants an extra neck guard, but her
saying no, I can't look weak in front of the men.
She is being faced at the assumption that because she's
a woman, and because she's a woman driver, that she
needs the car to be lighter or cushion softer, and
(16:27):
all of these things that the malee colleagues would not
be asked for.
Lily Herman 2 (16:31):
Yeah.
Lily Herman (16:31):
And what's also interesting at the same time, is it Yeah,
it does become this question of like, hey, you are
anatomically maybe a little different than your competitors, Like it's
okay sometimes to factor that in, but she obviously is
worried about doing that.
Producer Max Miller (16:44):
I walked into the garage, helmet in hand, standing still
for a moment as the activity buzzed around me, A
sea of men, all chatting in German, working well. I
stood there as the lone woman. It wasn't something I
often thought about, but right then I couldn't help but
feel it. They sized me up, glancing at me. Not
a bad way more like they were trying to figure
(17:05):
out how to be around me, and at the.
Lily Herman (17:08):
Same time too, she's having to prove herself. She's still
getting comments obviously from men, from random other people in
the paddock. There is a interestingly, one of her teammates
is Mattias Lauda. His father Niki Lauda. We actually talked
about it in a different episode of this show, and
he's very much like he's like leading a strike in
that episode and is like a comrade for the people
(17:29):
and the workers. So it's funny that in this anecdote
she has of him, he's like kind of a mildly
misogynistic jerk to her, and where he makes a comment
about her to his son, fully knowing she's standing next
to them and can hear them.
Producer Max Miller (17:42):
Nicki entered with his trademark briskness, giving the team a
quick nod before stopping in front of his son. Nicki
cast me a brief glance, then turned to Mattias. The
most important thing beat her, she.
Lily Herman (17:54):
Does say later on, years later, she tells in the
story and he apologizes.
Producer Max Miller (17:58):
Years later, I reminded Nikki of it, recounting how rude
he had been.
Speaker 5 (18:02):
He didn't deny it.
Producer Max Miller (18:03):
You're right, he admitted that really wasn't nice and I'm sorry,
but I didn't know you were going to be so quick.
Lily Herman (18:10):
It's interesting first of all, that we all contain multitudes,
including Niki Lauda, but also that on the one hand,
she's like, I want to be just like the guys
and like I want to prove myself and you know,
be seen as tough. But then also even if she
does all of that, still is coming up against all
of these different barriers, which again, like.
Indiah Porter (18:28):
That's a lot, it is a lot.
Lily Herman (18:31):
The other thing too, that I think does become clear
about her is she is a stellar networker, like she
seems to or at least how she paints herself, which
again another skill that like a lot of people don't have.
And maybe if you have the money it doesn't really matter,
but if you don't, you really have to be like
charming and understand the internal politics of teams and drivers
in these different organizations, So that that does really come
(18:52):
into play for her, again having to do it in
German because they're all you know, otherwise they don't really
socialize with you at that level. I know, YOHI and
our executive producer Max were excited. We do have to
talk about Toto because it is around this time that
Toto Wolf enters the picture, and I think also complicates the.
Lily Herman 2 (19:11):
Picture, Oh Toto. So yeah, that's how you sold me.
Lily Herman (19:14):
Quite frankly, a lot of motorsports memoirs are not great
or don't really have anything interesting to say, which is
mind boggling considering you'd think all these people would live
really wild lives. But the thing that sold me was
you had texted me a few photos of passages and
you were like, this is literally a romance novel.
Producer Max Miller (19:31):
Yes, I didn't know who he was, but he had
a certain aura about him. He was tall, dark, and
incredibly handsome. He moved from table to table talking to people,
and I found myself completely distracted watching him.
Lily Herman (19:47):
Speaking of Niki laudas Son Mattias, he is actually present
with the first time that Susie Wolf ever lays eyes
on Toto. So Susie and Mattias are like sitting, you know,
hanging out, eating, drinking, doing whatever, and Total kind of
comes into this room and immediately grabs Susie's attention, and so.
Producer Max Miller (20:06):
She writes, Mattias noticed turning to see what or who
had caught my attention. When he turned back, he said, Susie,
you're looking at him. I immediately flushed red caught off guard.
You like him, Mattias said, grinning as he leaned back
in his chair. Who is he, I asked, Mattias smirked.
He's Austrian, works in finance. His name's Toto Wolf, and
(20:28):
he added, with a dramatic pause. You have absolutely no
chance he's dating this Austria.
Indiah Porter (20:34):
Incredible. I was reading that in Scotland. There's rain happening
in the background, it's kind of foggy. I'm there with
a cup of tea. I'm crawled up with the blanket
and I'm there just kicking my seat and giggling.
Yochai Maital (20:49):
Susie likes the challenge.
Lily Herman (20:51):
Yeah, I will say, tis loud. I know nothing about
him other than what was in this book. What a
menace like his father's like, You're never no chance in
Helle dating this Austria. Incredible line that is that is
straight up like the end of a chapter that you
would see in fact, in a work of romantic fiction. Yes,
so Toto does write a reflection for this book, and
(21:12):
in the way he talks about Susie, he seems like
he is very much equally enamored. He wrote, just I
picked I picked out one of many many quotes in here.
He said, from the first conversation it was a oh,
I don't know this French word coude foodrey hmm. Anyway,
that moment when someone steps into your thoughts and doesn't leave.
She saw me clearly, and I saw her. Our connection
(21:33):
was instinctive. We were soulmates from the beginning.
Lily Herman 2 (21:35):
I mean, a real yearner.
Lily Herman (21:38):
It's like at such odds with what what I think
of as total wolf right in the paddock. Right, he's
in the garage, he's got his arms crossed, he's so
big and imposing.
Indiah Porter (21:46):
He's taking headphones and just smashing them against the table.
Lily Herman (21:49):
Yeah, and yelling like, no, Michael, No, that's what I
that's what I think of. And then you get him
in this book being like, this is the love of
my life, my soulmate. And then and then she owing
the also wrote sometimes I think she was made for me,
though perhaps the truth is we were made for each other.
Indiah Porter (22:05):
And the book he also talks about when he proposed
to her, that he bought the engagement ring six weeks
after they.
Lily Herman (22:11):
Met, like I just incredible, also incredible for Toto's image.
Lily Herman 2 (22:15):
I will say this book, yes, Joahi is like is
speechless when you know, you know, yeah, there you go.
Lily Herman (22:20):
I am not partnered at the moment, so like I'm like,
that's great, happy for everyone, I guess. So I will
say though that the total of it all and the
reason we bring him up, I do think these quotes
are like fabulous and lovely. Though is that there is
this added complication with him which she doesn't really know
how to contend with as she's talking about it in
the book, This idea of her trying to be like, yeah,
(22:41):
he's super rich, and that definitely opened some doors. But
also like I'm good at networking. I have to at
the end of the day, like still be like good
at racing things to be even considered no matter how
rich my boyfriend turned fiance turned husband is. And I
do understand some of the arguments that someone likes U
shouldn't have to justify her place as an executive or
(23:02):
a business person in motorsports simply because of who her
husband is. But to me, it's also hard to overlook
the fact that like this isn't just some random rich
dude or a very minor player in the motorsports world.
He is the team principal, CEO and part owner of
one of the most successful Formula one teams in history,
particularly of the twenty first century. So that kind of
(23:24):
thing does in fact matter and should factor in.
Indiah Porter (23:26):
Yes, And the team that you're involved with is also,
of course connected to your boyfriend turned fiance turned husband
and everything that you're learning about how to become a
Formula A team principal, and then eventually as we go
into ATHLN academy, you're all learning that from him. Of course,
(23:48):
she is probably the best stated woman for the job.
But what those opportunities have happened if she didn't have
an enormous backing from her husband and the financial as well.
Lily Herman (24:00):
Yeah, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
All right, we are back the big I think, like
thrust and like climax of Susie's racing career is she
does get sick of DTM after a while, She's stuck
(24:21):
in a very mid car. She feels like there's no
real mobility for her. Everyone's selling her. Yeah, you're gonna
need to raise a lot more money or get all
these other sponsorship opportunities other things just to keep going,
and she just decides it's really not worth it. There's
some other stops and starts as far as her trying
to get other opportunities going and all of this to say. Eventually, though,
(24:41):
she does get in touch with the Williams Formula One team,
and long story short, in twenty fourteen, she becomes the
first woman since nineteen ninety two to participate in a
Formula one race weekend, which is, if you think about
it, it is wild. But if you are aged thirty four
or younger, Susie Wolf is the only woman in your
(25:02):
lifetime who has driven an actual F one car as
part of an actual race weekend, that.
Indiah Porter (25:08):
Is actually wild to think about. Yeah, like wild and incredible.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Yeah.
Producer Max Miller (25:12):
I ended the session just point two seconds off Felipe
Masa in the other Williams car. It was the proudest
moment of my career, not just because I had taken
to the track under the weight of so much expectation,
knowing I couldn't crash, knowing I had to hand the
car back intact, but because I had proved something real.
A woman could be competitive in Formula.
Lily Herman (25:33):
One, and there hasn't been another woman since then, And
I also add to that, someone's gonna be like, but
this woman drove the car again. There's been women who
have Cutton to drive like retrofitted cars that are basically
like old F one cars, but not during race weekends.
They were like exhibition sort of things. This was during
like a free practice, a scheduled free practice in the
sport during a weekend. So and she got to do
(25:53):
it again, I believe in in twenty fifteen. But yeah,
but that kind of is the end of the road they,
you know. I think also something that I was thinking
about a lot here and then also it kind of
leads back to some of the issues that I think
Susie faces now being on the business and operation side,
is she runs in the issue of people are kind
of like, yeah, we'll let you be like a development
driver in F one or like a sim driver or
(26:16):
something like that. But she finds very quickly that no
one is going to really give her a true shot,
and instead she could easily be sort of tokenized and
used to be marketed as like, oh, we do employ
a woman, like look, how cool and progressive, but there's
no actual path for her to drive these cars.
Indiah Porter (26:33):
Seriously, which is so unfortunate because if that is happening
to someone who is the wife of a team principal
of one of the most successful teams in Formula one
and someone who was a powerhouse for basically a decade almost,
then let's think about what's happening to basically any other
woman who is trying to get into motorsports, who is
(26:55):
in motorsports or trying to also carve that path back
into F one.
Lily Herman (27:00):
It's really depressing and also depressing that like everyone's like,
no she could.
Lily Herman 2 (27:05):
It's like they wouldn't even do.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
It for her.
Yochai Maital (27:08):
Yeah, I don't really understand it.
Lily Herman (27:11):
Sexism yo, hi, yeah, thank you. Okay, So as we
see this path, I'm not surprised because other other women
in motorsports made a similar transition as she did, where
she is like, Okay, you know what, I think, I'm
at the end of the line for a professional racing career.
I'm going to transition more to like the business side,
(27:31):
the operations side. And she also does some like like
nonprofity stuff, right, she has that that org called like
dare to be different to get women involved in motorsports
at like all parts of the sport.
Lily Herman 2 (27:42):
Or like in every series.
Lily Herman (27:43):
And stuff like that, Okay, questionable how effective it is.
But she also, as you were saying India, she does
become team principal and later CEO of the Formula E
team Venturi Racing. She does help them, over the course
of several seasons, become more and more successful. And that
she was also employing a third of her team were women,
which some might say, like a third that's still less
(28:05):
than like parody, but like compared to other motorsports teams,
both in Formula E and F one in any other series,
like that's that's unheard of in most spaces. And then she,
starting with the twenty twenty three season, becomes the managing
director of a support series in Formula One called F
(28:27):
one Academy.
Indiah Porter (28:28):
Ah. I remember before the F one Academy, we had
the W series, which was the all female series, which
was dominated by the driver Jamie Chadwick, and she won
basically every single year that they had until she said,
this is not sustainable and I cannot do this anymore.
(28:49):
I need something to help me go to the next level,
to go to another series, to do something. So they
and by they I mean F one Slash the FIA
got red of it, it came back and rebranded as
F one Academy.
Lily Herman (29:06):
The Jamie Chadwick of it all, I think is perfect
very important because I think she represents this, this next
generation below Susie and how they are dealing with the
exact same bs that like Susie had to deal with
and women before her had to deal with.
Lily Herman 2 (29:18):
So it does show this, like.
Lily Herman (29:20):
Again not to sound too much like a freshman seminar
on feminism in college, you could see the generations of
like sexism, misogyny, and obstacles that keep these women out.
And if we zoom in on the W series specifically,
since it was a precursor to the F one Academy
as a women's centric, lower level racing championship, it had
a lot of issues, like a lot of issues. One, Yeah,
(29:42):
there was no buy in financially from F one, so
all of their funding had to come from outside external sources.
So already a weird cell and F one was just like, yeah,
we'll let you race as a support So for people
who've never been to an F one race weekend, or
maybe don't pay attention to other series other than Formula One,
if you go during a race weekend, there are several
(30:02):
junior races happening in the hours before an F one
race or before qualifying, so you could see anything, right like,
So W series is one of many different types of
support series. They all don't race at every single race
during the F one season on the calendar, but it's
just like a good way to see up and coming drivers.
Lily Herman 2 (30:17):
It's fun, it's entertaining. I remember one.
Lily Herman (30:19):
Year at one of the Canadian Grand Prix years i went,
there was just like it was just like raining like
the entire like the entire weekend, and so you're just
watching these like teenagers who are doing you know, like
like very very junior level racing, just like wiping out
everywhere and likely no one was harmed, but it was
very entertaining and it was sort of like goody. So
W Series is one of these But yeah, as you
(30:41):
were saying, they run into many issues. The first problem
they find is that there are so few women who
can afford to be in this series and are also
at a certain caliber of driver. So you have this
driver Jamie Chadwick, who wins all three years that this
series is in existence. And that's in the large part
because there's not a ton of competition for her. She's
just by far and away much more talented, has maybe
(31:03):
had more resourcing than even just other women. And so
the series really runs the gamut as far as the
experience and skill level, more so than you'd find in
you know, F two, F three, even when you factor
in like rich kids who just kind of got a
seat kind of thing. On top of that, it is
fronted by a bunch of people where you're like, I
don't know if this is the best person to like
represent like women in motorsports, Like the former driver David Colthard,
(31:27):
who Yo, how you can find the clip of this
He's he's made comments about women that are not the
best and has also never like said sorry for them him,
like commenting on like a female presenter's nipples.
Yochai Maital (31:36):
You've been practicing with that pit lane speedlimited.
Indiah Porter (31:39):
Yeah, I have. I've just been imagining Asian nipples, so
I'm being a bit more gentle with it when I
take my finger off at the end of the pitlane.
Yochai Maital (31:45):
Very much, Yes, yeah, thanks very much indeed for that one, David,
That's that's fantastic.
Lily Herman (31:51):
So like not the guy you want to be one
of the figureheads of the women's only racing series not
a great look. And then yeah, on top of that,
because there was no real buy in coming from F
one as an organization or any of the teams, it
was always kind of treated as this redheaded step child
in the support series family.
Lily Herman 2 (32:12):
There was nowhere for these drivers to go right.
Lily Herman (32:14):
Even if you're Jamie Chadwick and you won it, that
didn't really mean anything. It didn't lead to anything. So
this series eventually does fold. It doesn't even finish its
third full season. It actually just has to stop a
couple of races before the end, which is also depressing.
People were outraged. Susie does talk about this, but of
course she puts her own spin on it. All this
information I just said is very much left out or
is kind of washed over and how she discusses her
(32:35):
in her book for obvious reasons. But what they come
up with is we want to have this new women's
racing series F one Academy. It's going to have buy
in from both F one, the overarching organization, as well
as all then ten teams on the grid.
Lily Herman 2 (32:49):
It's going to be a.
Lily Herman (32:50):
Formula four level women's only racing series. They really try
to hammer home kind of what level of drivers should
be in here. And they also are like, we're going
to bring in external sponsors, particularly those that maybe haven't
felt the most welcome or aren't really a focus in
F one, so for instance, beauty brands. And we'll get
to why this also becomes thorny in a second. But
again Susie's version doesn't mention a few key things like,
(33:11):
for instance, while Formula one subsidizes the cost of each car,
Formula one Academy drivers still need to contribute one hundred
thousand euros of their own money or from their side
for this, so obviously very cost prohibitive.
Indiah Porter (33:25):
Many many people just a casual one hundred thousand I
have lying around.
Lily Herman (33:30):
I don't care if it's euros, dollars, pounds, the Canadian dollar,
Like that's a lot of money I do not possess
personally to just spend.
Indiah Porter (33:39):
They say, get to Western Union and make sure the
wire goes.
Lily Herman 2 (33:41):
Through literally literally.
Lily Herman (33:45):
And also I will say I've heard behind the scenes
like this idea of like the ten teams are also
supportive of this. I've heard some things behind the scenes
where there's a again, depending on the team and the leadership,
some eye rolling of like, yeah, we have to support
this like women thing, but of course publicly everyone's no,
women are great, we love women.
Lily Herman 2 (34:02):
I have a daughter, like this is important.
Indiah Porter (34:04):
You know.
Lily Herman (34:05):
Another thing that starts to come up, which is President
Susie's book, and it's interesting again to watch her talk
about this in the early chapters and then kind of
skirt around it or put a real nice shine to
it at the end is sponsorship. And how for one thing,
you do have sponsors like Charlotte Tilbury entering F one
Academy when I've never seen Charlotte Tilbury set foot in
(34:26):
the Formula one paddock. You do have Tommy Hill figure
which is at the time was a Mercedes sponsor. It
does ask a lot of questions though about fashion and
beauty sponsorships because they used to be such a rarity
enough one, and I feel like there's only recently, in
the past few years been a huge increase in the
number that we see in the sport. So like a
couple of years ago it felt revolutionary when Alex Albon
(34:48):
did a few sponsored Sera V videos with his then
girlfriend now fiance Lily He And now we have Charlott
Clair joining Carlo Science as a Laurel Paris ambassador. And
then on top of that, people have pointed out like, hey,
it seems like certain drivers that maybe fit more traditional
beauty standards are the ones getting these opportunities, are the
(35:10):
ones getting profiled in magazines over maybe some of the
more much more successful drivers. And isn't that like a
very awkward, tenuous situation for all involved?
Indiah Porter (35:19):
Yeah, if the F one Academy wants to be the
force in this space, that's fighting against the idea that
women are meek and women are small, and women you
don't have to be the stereotypical blonde barbie and look
this way and you know, can rough house it and
be right there with the men. Then is bring in
a sponsor like Charlotte Tilberry and then putting the driver
(35:44):
who maybe has the most followers or fits a certain
vibe the best message that you want to be sending.
Lily Herman 2 (35:50):
Yeah, I was going to say too.
Lily Herman (35:51):
The other thing that comes up, there was one season
where this was like all over the place if you
were in the very online corners of the F one
Internet was the fact that there was a race where
it was it was in Miami, and you had all
of these big celebrities obviously at F one and in
the F one pattic and out, you know, in all
corners of the F one space. And then you just
had a bunch of Formula one wags show. So wives
(36:13):
and girlfriends show up to F one Academy to cheer
them all, and everyone's like, this is very weird that
like y'all were able to get like legit celebrities some
of the biggest names we have, like Brad Pitt or
Tom Cruiser whoever to F one, But no one you
couldn't like pay or get anyone to come over to
F one Academy. And it's like a weird look when
it's like the girlfriends are here to cheer them all.
You know, it was just like a very a very
(36:36):
strange series of events.
Indiah Porter (36:39):
Yeah, it is weird, because why can't you encourage the
drivers to come over or the driver stutter corresponding with
your team to come over.
Lily Herman (36:48):
I think they eventually got the message and started doing that.
But of course, which driver was the first to come
over to Susie Wolfe's UH Racing series and show his support?
Indiah Porter (36:56):
King Louis Hamilton.
Lily Herman (36:58):
He said, we have been like friends since we were
not going to know each other on carts and I'm
here to support, and then he would show up with
like Kendall Jenner. Of course this is made ironic now
that he is, as of this recording, potentially being seen
with Kim Kardashian, the Kardashian Jenner's. But so all this
to say, Susie Wolf still the managing director of F
(37:19):
one Academy as of this recording, or when it comes out,
it will be in its fourth season. So I'm interested
to see though, because the pressure is on them. The
first couple of years, there's some grace, you know, as
they're figuring it out and trying to figure out broadcasting
and sponsorship deals and which drivers they have and how
they advance. But I think now that there's been a
couple of years, people are now asking the big question of, well,
(37:40):
what happened all these women now that they go through
this series. Is anyone actually advancing in part because of it?
Is anyone crediting it for any success or are we
just seeing a lot of women have this nice little
moment for a season or two and then going back
to whatever they were doing before, In many cases that
being a whole lot of nothing. As far as racing
is concerned, which we know it's not their fault, but
(38:01):
that's just the predicament they're in.
Indiah Porter (38:03):
And then it's one of those things where you're asking yourself,
what would it look like for the teams to be
more involved in their drivers even after the contract ends,
or what does it look like to actually go and
support them and to have them do were outreach and
to actually be wholly involved in their driver's lives and
what they do after the F one Academy.
Lily Herman (38:24):
Yeah, Dorian Pan who just won last season of F
one Academy is now technically a development driver I believe
at Mercedes, But like, what does that mean? How does
that get her into an F one car during a
race weekend? It's not her currently?
Lily Herman 2 (38:36):
Like when will it? Will it be her or or
someone like her?
Indiah Porter (38:39):
I mean, Mick Schumacher was a development driver.
Lily Herman (38:43):
He got in that car and then he got in
that hospital two seasons and he just kept beIN in it.
He saw every wall on that grid and not in
a good way.
Indiah Porter (38:51):
Yeah.
Lily Herman (38:53):
But yeah, I'm I'm at a loss and I'm depressed,
and I am happy though, as I said that Susie
wrote this book and if even if at the end Americ,
it's a little too like don't what's the word I
looking for it? It just yeah, it definitely gleazes over
a lot of issues. But I see, given her current
position and background, why she wouldn't want to jeopardize certain
(39:14):
relationships or things by maybe telling the truth a little
more in that part. But I did appreciate that she
was pretty honest about especially the earlier part of her life,
just how she ended up even not being a racer
after a certain point.
Lily Herman 2 (39:27):
So I do appreciate that, Susy Wolf.
Indiah Porter (39:29):
If you ever want to talk to Lily and I
of her a class of you know someonean bloc and
you just really want to spill it, We're here for you.
Lily Herman 2 (39:39):
On all the gossip. I want all the TV. I
want to know all the names. I want full names.
I want a full government name.
Indiah Porter (39:45):
We'll sign an NDA.
Lily Herman 2 (39:47):
I will happily sign an NDA for that.
Lily Herman (39:50):
A huge thank you to India Porter for coming on
today to chat about this book and for even suggesting
that I read it. And again, if you haven't listened
to our conversation about women in Motorsports with riber Catherine Legg,
I highly highly recommend it. She is rerutally honest, and
I really appreciated her insights seeing as, unlike me.
Lily Herman 2 (40:07):
She has actually driven a race car. YOHI we have
now wrapped.
Lily Herman (40:11):
Up two episodes about women in motorsports, which sounds like
the perfect time for you to jump in.
Lily Herman 2 (40:16):
Any thoughts, any remaining concluding ideas.
Yochai Maital (40:20):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I did. I read through the
book and I enjoyed reading it, I have to say,
And I was even more like enriched by your conversation
with India, Like I felt like I had another layer
and I listened after the recording, so that was actually
kind of cool. Honestly, I feel like it's kind of
a cross. The book is a bit of a cross
between a self help book and a memoir.
Lily Herman 2 (40:42):
Yeah.
Yochai Maital (40:42):
Some of the quotes there from the book are straight
out of like a Tony Robbins book.
Indiah Porter (40:46):
You know.
Yochai Maital (40:46):
It's like for me, anyone who puts themselves in the ring,
whatever they whether they win or lose, deserves respect the
real challenges in doing and taking that risk, you know.
Or my favorite cheesey quote there, it was a hard
earned lesson. Here, I have it written down. It was
a hard earned lesson. When the going gets tough, the
(41:07):
tough get going.
Lily Herman (41:09):
I take it you read some Tony Robbins in your day,
given that you're like, you're pulling these quotes.
Lily Herman 2 (41:14):
Out, man, don't help me.
Yochai Maital (41:16):
Don't help me now, really, come on, come on, man.
Lily Herman 2 (41:19):
I agree though, So that was.
Yochai Maital (41:21):
One one slight criticism and then the other criticism. I
don't know if you're going to make me cut this
or not, but I have done my share of parenting
in life, and maybe, as some of our listeners can imagine,
being like a podcaster living in New York, my wife
is the main breadwinner of our family, and I do
a lot of child rearing, and it was a little
hard for me to hear Susie bitch about parenting while
(41:45):
having like.
Lily Herman (41:45):
A private jet, access to a lot of things private.
Yochai Maital (41:49):
Jet and a nanny there at her Beckham call and
like one kid.
Indiah Porter (41:53):
It's like, do me a faith.
Lily Herman (41:57):
I am not a parent, so obviously I cannot comment
from a parentingtive. I do have a real gaggle of
nephews around me, but so I see what the people
are about.
Yochai Maital (42:05):
And my biggest personal takeaway from the book is that
I am just really really waiting to read Toto's book.
Lily Herman (42:14):
Well, thank you Yohi for doing what needed to be
done aka being a man who gave insights on a
women's career, life and trajectory.
Yochai Maital (42:22):
Always here to man explain Lily whenever you need an
explanation about anything.
Lily Herman 2 (42:27):
I'll keep that in mind. That's our show.
Lily Herman (42:30):
Our next episode will come out on May twentieth, ahead
of the Canadian Grand Prix, and we're going to dive
into a topic I've been wanting to cover for a while,
and that is what on Earth is the Cadillac.
Lily Herman 2 (42:42):
Formula One team?
Yochai Maital (42:43):
There is a Cadillac team.
Lily Herman (42:44):
No Grip is hosted by me Lily Herman and produced,
edited and sound designed by Johai Metal. Max Miller is
our executive producer. We get additional production support from Poldu
Special thanks to Ben Riskin at Room Tone at iHeart
shant Tone is executive producer, and thank you to Liam
Bahar for additional research and help on this episode. Be
sure to give this show a five star rating and review.
(43:06):
Wherever you're listening, you can follow me at Lily K
Herman on Instagram and follow us at No Grip Podcast
on Instagram and TikTok
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