November 26, 2025 • 36 mins
Why do men have so much trouble finding everyday items in their own homes? It’s a common sitcom trope, but is there actually something to it. This week, for the sake of the women in our lives, we dig into the research to find out if “male refrigerator blindness” is real, explore if it dates all the way back to our hunter-gatherer roots, and find out what we can do about it.
Our guest this week is Dr. Albert Postma, leader of the Memory & Space Lab at Utrecht University.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm manny, and this is no such thing to show
where were subtle r dumb arguments and yours by actually
doing the research this week, where the hell is the
damn ketchup? No, there's no no such thing.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Touch, thank touch, thank.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Touch Touch.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
This week is very kind of U you know, sitcom
coded episode, very King of Queen's style. It's about, I think,
a common trope that men can't find things, you know,
in their own home, where presumably they would have some
sense of where the condiments are, spices or other everyday items.
Do you guys relate to this?
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Yes, but I will I'll add in a dandum here
that like, I've only run into this when I've lived
with my partner. So like before, when I lived by myself,
it was fine because there's only so many places a
thing could be. But these days, yeah, there's like a
learning curve a little bit when you move in with
someone who does things a little bit differently me.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I'm I'm easy.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
I'll adapt to your style, but you know it might
take me some time.
Speaker 5 (01:19):
Okay, So you're you're basically did you have this issue
with roommates?
Speaker 6 (01:26):
Are there men that you lived with?
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Not that I can remember, no, but would you be
sharing less of things? Yeah, that's what I really is about,
I think.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
But you and your wife now have lived in two
separate places where you both moved into these places together. Right,
So yeah, to some degree, you're setting up these places collaboratively.
It's not like she moved into your apartment.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yes, or you move We both went into these places.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
Okay, let's just remember that for later in the episode. Okay, Wait,
what are certain things that you like are looking for
that you can't find?
Speaker 6 (01:57):
Give us an example, you.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Know what, it's really a problem when I'm putting stuff away,
then I just put it to finding things, so I
relate to unloading the dishwasher.
Speaker 6 (02:05):
You put things in the wrong spots, or I'll.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Be like, where does this thing go? That I never
fucking use? So can I be held accountable for not
knowing where it goes? Sometimes I feel like I don't
use the thing, you know, give me, cut me some slack.
Speaker 6 (02:16):
But so you don't cook as often?
Speaker 4 (02:18):
I mean yeah, not as often for sure. But she
drinks a lot of coffee and tea and has all
these like dow hickeys that I just never use.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
You don't know where to put feminine devices.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Tea. Hey I didn't say it, but not not really
in case you're listening to this, honey, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Mean I'm trying to think what specific things definitely, like
I set it up, like spices and kind of small
items that aren't in everyday use. It could be in
one of two places and you know, maybe we have
run out of the coriander, you know, outside of the kitchen.
Other things like where a certain type of towel is
(02:59):
or anything like that, or cleaning agents. Yeah, yeah, it'll
be little things like that where it could be Okay,
it could be in the bathroom under the sink. It
could be in the kind of storage closet, it could
be in the office closet. Like you know, there's you know,
our apartments not that big, but there's just so there's
like three or four places where everything is crammed in.
And then because of that, it is kind of an
(03:21):
ordeal if you have to like move things out of
the way. So that's where I think maybe a lot
of the frustration stems from where now it's like all
right now I need to dig in here. That said,
I think some OF's this tripe comes up in a
way where it's like, well, maybe I'm asking where it
is so we can get to the answer quicker than
me digging around, maybe making a mess. And you know
(03:43):
when again, when it's not an everyday use item, it
might just be easier to have communication.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
But it's like asking my friend what time is the
Lakers game versus googling it. Like if I'm right next
to my friend, he might know the answer.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
Okay, But to stand out for the women in your
life is kind of annoying. And we talk about this
all the time when people ask you shit that they
should know or they can google.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Themselves, weaponize some competency.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
Yes, I've heard this term.
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Yes, So like if you, for example, Noah, You're like, dammit,
I need some Lifesol wipes?
Speaker 6 (04:14):
Where do we put that?
Speaker 5 (04:16):
All right, this one time you're looking for it, you
don't know. You know it could be in one of
three places. You find them, use them, you put them back.
Three months from now you're thinking about where the Lifesol
wipes are? Does that stick in your brain?
Speaker 6 (04:29):
You now know?
Speaker 5 (04:29):
Okay, I've I've was looking for the Lefsol wipes at
one time. I know it's in Yeah, i'mder the sink
or do you are you like a goldfish?
Speaker 6 (04:36):
You got start over?
Speaker 5 (04:36):
You're like, I know it's in one of these three
places I remember where if.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Everything is in order, hopefully then I typically I think
I do remember. That's okay, okay, But I think this
is also where you know, you can easily get into
a you know, teach a man to fish situation where okay,
if I actually then go and get it myself, I
will know, yes.
Speaker 6 (04:53):
Versus if you're told. If I'm told or you know,
go get.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
It grabbing for you then given to me, then maybe
I put them back, but not connecting the same way.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Yeah, just to concede a little bit here. There are
times when I'll get the answer and I think that
makes me forget about where it was, Like my my
problem that I was having was solved.
Speaker 6 (05:12):
Yeah, and so you don't even have to remember to.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
Go so like next time, I'm like, damn, I didn't
ingest that answer.
Speaker 6 (05:21):
Yeah, in one air out the other.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
But I do think some you know, many times I
think I like this, like we are remembering I think
the times we ask where the thing goes, but of
course you don't remember the times we don't ask. There
are I know true. I know all the things you do,
know where the bread is, where the cereal of the time,
(05:48):
not asking where something goes. It's those moments where I
don't know that are more memorable.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
I think, how long do you think you're going to
need until you're able to not have to ask?
Speaker 6 (05:57):
Well, I just think you're ever reached that day? Or
is it just like.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Surely over time?
Speaker 6 (06:02):
But I guess some of it.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
I don't think about it as like an assignment that
needs to.
Speaker 6 (06:06):
Be so it's not something you're striving towards.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
No, it's relatively not important in my life. Okay, other now,
you know I do want to be helpful.
Speaker 5 (06:17):
Yeah, it's not so you're not embarrassed or like concerned
that every once in a while you don't know where
something goes.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, I'm confident enough in myself that I'm able to
ask for help. Yeah, you know it's a man.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
You're confident enough of your man wife.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yes, I'm able to say, babe, I need I need
help right now? Where the hell is the catcher?
Speaker 6 (06:37):
Please?
Speaker 1 (06:38):
The eggs are getting cold, crying the eggs get it's
been six hours.
Speaker 6 (06:44):
What the help?
Speaker 1 (06:45):
I've looked everywhere?
Speaker 5 (06:53):
You know, I'm an investigative journalists here on the pod.
So I didn't want to just take what both Menny
and Noah said about their home lives and how good
they are at finding things. So I, you know, hopped
in the group chat that I have with the girls
secret we have a secret one. So I'm gonna play
some soundbites starting with Mia about how well does many
(07:17):
do in a house at finding things?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Be interested to hear this.
Speaker 7 (07:28):
I think that he's like, doesn't quite have eyes for
the kitchen, you know, keeps it sort of organized and stuff,
but it's just like when it comes to like where
things go, I'm like, oh, this is so funny that
I kind of thought that we had organized the kitchen together.
And then sometimes I'll just be looking for something and.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I'm like, aware, enough.
Speaker 7 (07:46):
Could that possibly be? And I'll find it in a
completely different place and I'm like, oh, I wouldn't have
thought to put it there when I hurt my back recently.
So then Money was in charge of like doing everything
in the kitchen, cooking, cleaning, like putting stuff away, and
I'd be sat there next to him, like at the
(08:07):
bar on a bar stool, watching him try to navigate
some of this stuff, and it was so funny where
he's like holding up a measuring cup being like I
know where this goes, but like just remind me where's
his go and I'm like, in that cupboard. The other day,
he was like putting a blender away, and he was
(08:28):
going to put it with all of the canned goods
like where we have like beans and crushed tomato sauce.
And I was like, oh, no, that doesn't go there.
That just that goes in the next cupboard. So then
he was gonna put it below with all the vinegar.
I was like, no, no, try again.
Speaker 6 (08:46):
It goes in.
Speaker 7 (08:47):
Another cupboard, and eventually he found the cupboard where we
keep appliances, and I was like, wow, that's that's so
interesting that in my mind I just kind of like
know where everything goes. But I was like, maybe he
comes into the kitchen every day and it's like what
new adventures away? Where could this go? If I thought
about it fresh?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
This is libel.
Speaker 6 (09:16):
Did you know where the blender goes?
Speaker 4 (09:18):
No?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Because I don't fucking use the blender.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
I don't use this shit, so I need your help.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
I don't put that shit anywhere.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
But I think generally ninety nine percent of the things
I can't remember where they go. It's stuff I don't use,
I will.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Say, to give me any credit, you were talking about
people don't remember when you do.
Speaker 6 (09:40):
Find things exactly. We do have an example here.
Speaker 7 (09:44):
I was surprised to learn that he does know where
we keep the like bulk salt because we have like
a what do you call it, like a little jar
with salt in it, and we refill it with this
big salt thing that's kind of hidden in the back
of the car cupboard. And I like had realized that
I was the one that you should refilled it. So
(10:05):
I was like, I wonder, like, I'm guessing he probably
doesn't know where it is. And then the other day
he refilled it, and I was like, you know what,
maybe I'm wrong, Maybe he does know where these things are.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
She's talking about me like a like a chimpion learn
how to use tools.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
A shocking new development. Surprise, you knew where the salt is?
Speaker 6 (10:24):
All right? No, yeah, you're up next.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
I know she's been waiting for this episode.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
I will say you you were marked safe in terms
of most things in the kitchen. Yeah, not a lot
of examples there you're pretty good about that.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
But Noah's issue is laundry. Mmmm.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Oh well, it's not my laundry.
Speaker 6 (10:47):
Okay, let's play it.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I'll take the many the many defense. Let's hear it.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Noah cannot discern where my clothing goes at all in
a way that's like really should be studied, Like the
sports bras are going with like the sleep clothes and
the T shirts are going in the underwear drawer, and
like every time we talk about it, he's just like, right,
but your system is hard, Like your system's hard, and
there's something about it that just truly does not compute
(11:18):
for him. Like I think if he could put it
away right, he would, but every time he does it wrong,
and every time I say, oh, that would be fine
if you did it wrong, because then you would learn,
But it's like completely unknowable to him. I will try
to explain the difference between an AARSM top and a
sports bra.
Speaker 8 (11:32):
Really hard for him to get his head around.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
And I just feel like that's related in some way
to just like complete inability to pick up on details
that feel so fundamental to like an art item's properties
to me.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
I'll explain my system, Okay, Yeah, there's pants in one drawer. Yeah,
there's like sweatshirts and sweatpants in another drawer. Above those,
I've got socks one drawer.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Same, I've got a lot, way too many draws to
it's it's more of a box, uh drawer thing, probably
not a big drawer.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Like okay, so boys, and then underwear and like athletic shorts.
Speaker 6 (12:14):
Okay, those are in the same. Yeah, my socks were
in my underwear.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
That makes sense. If I if I didn't have so many.
Speaker 6 (12:19):
Socks, you have less socks, maybe you could get it.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
And then above that T shirts one drawer and then
another one for like basically polos and kind of some
miscellaneous shirts that aren't like.
Speaker 6 (12:29):
Yeah, not a straight T shirt.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
But that's my six drawers six that's my system. Yeah,
her she is six drawers as well. It's just incomprehensible
because the workout clothes seem like sleep clothes to me.
Speaker 6 (12:43):
But they're different.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
Apparently you don't know the difference between a sports.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
And then there then there's like and then it's like socks.
It's it just to me, it seems like a jumpoint.
Every time I opened them. I'm looking and one of
her drawers doesn't really it'll open or won't close. That's
a whole over the level of frustration. Now where I'm now,
I'm really messing this thing up.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
Okay, So let me ask you. Is it what's confusing
to you? You don't know where things go, or you
can't discern what the.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I can't discern what when I open the drawer, it's
hard to tell what.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
Which is which?
Speaker 1 (13:17):
What category should be in here? It is the issue.
Speaker 5 (13:21):
Now, let's be honest here. How much of this do
you actually really care about? Like how much of this
is like if you actually put your mind to it,
could you do it?
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I mean it depends what you mean by put my
mind to it. I mean do I care about it?
Speaker 6 (13:32):
No?
Speaker 5 (13:32):
Yeah, you know, I mean like part of it is
like whatever, It's like, this is your stuff. Like if
I put something in slightly the wrong drawer, it's not
that big of a deal.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
That's more or less.
Speaker 6 (13:41):
You think that's more of it, or.
Speaker 5 (13:42):
You think it's like you're like fuck every week, I
am like trying my hardest to do this and it's
just not clicked. I mean I could yeah, I could
got a hard closed blindness or something.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I could try harder. I think it is a little
bit of closed blindness, where like I'm not just throwing
stuff in. Yeah, you're trying a little bit, but my
system is a lot simpler, I think, even though I've sick.
Speaker 6 (14:00):
Wow, guy, there are a lot simpler.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
You've got like three categories.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
Well, let me play this because Julia also said this
in her voice memo, and I think this rings tree
to me.
Speaker 8 (14:14):
Obviously, I know that's not about finding things, but I
feel like, as I'm sure you all get into, so
much of this is like dumbass, like mental load shit
of like living in partnership with anyone where one person
is going to be better at something than others. But
like the home is considered the woman's domain, whether I
want it to be or not, like whether I agree
or not, and whether the people coming into my home
(14:36):
agree or not. Ultimately, in my mind, I've been raised
with like this is my responsibility. You haven't been raised
that way, and I feel like that's obviously part of it. Okay,
you haven't been raised to really take not responsibility for this,
but like you don't see it as at all related
to who you are as a person or like a
value about you it's not as important to you to
(14:57):
know where things go because it's keeping an organized is
not a value judgment on you as a person, in
your capability to exist in the world in general. And
so like then being met with obviously wanting to be
a good partner and wanting to be helpful, then being
intently bad at something like that like feels bad. So
then it's kind of futile.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
You think that rings true to you that like you
just don't view it as like, well, you don't see
it as a reflection.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
I don't think it's you. I think there are worse
character flaws for someone to have. And you know, I
think in a perfect world we would all be able
to mess up where things are, you know, And it's
it's sad that this is what society has done to
our queens, my queen specifically.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
Yeah, people are dying.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
This is like they're big There are bigger issues in
a worried about the war is not top of the list.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
And if I can't, I can't distinguish the unicule tops
like have you seen the news?
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Yeah, because in the White House, speaking in a group chat,
I want to make it clear both of them are like, oh,
this isn't really that big of a deal in our relationship.
Speaker 6 (16:05):
But I was.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
I was listening to what she was saying about, like
what you're expected to do, or like what the home
is a reflection on. But I kind of agree with
no where we're like, yeah, it should be the case
that they're allowed to make more mistakes, not the case
that I should be perfect at putting stuff away.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
I like what Julia says about like it doesn't matter
kind of what we think, because it's like, yeah, if
someone shows up to your house and your home is
a mess, yeah, they're not going to say oh God,
damn manny or no, or I'm like, oh, what are
Julian and mea doing?
Speaker 6 (16:32):
Like this place is a it's a hell hole.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
You know, nothing's organized, it's all over the place, right,
So it is a reflection of the women.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
I don't know about if I agree with that so much.
If someone's apartment was dirty, I'd be like, it's the
guy doing this, they're.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Dirty, or but yes, you would think it'd be like, wow,
I can't believe she puts up with that.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
Yes, you would think it's a want like she is,
because guys are expected to be dirty and the women
are supposed to counter.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
It, honestly, genuinely speaking, probably like the war of feminism
in the past, like fifty sixty years has allowed these
kind of uffs to be on equal a little closer
to equal standing today than like in the fifties or
sixties or seventies. Of course, if there was a dirty house,
it'd be like who the hell did you marry?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Who's this woman?
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Yeah, Now it's more expected that men should help out
a bit in the home, but it's cenerally still not
you know, it's not fifty to fifty, but it is
is less like, you know, guy goes to work, shows
up at home and does absolutely nothing right, like they're
I feel like guys get like shirtain chores now and
like yeah, ahead of or own household.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So there's been a couple of theories on this one
that I think is largely debunked is that this goes
back to our you know, hunter gatherer yeah, cavement. The
theory is like, because men would go out to hunt,
mm hm, we'd be we'd be looking for you know,
animals moving holding like a bow and arrow or a spear,
I guess, so you're looking for things that are moving
(17:56):
out in the land.
Speaker 6 (17:57):
Things that are stationary.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yeah, things that are stationary, we're blotting that out. It
doesn't matter because we're not going after that, you know,
we're looking for the will to beast or whatever. That's incredible.
And then people were also saying that, like, uh, men's
peripheral vision is worse because we're laser focused on what's
in front of us, which also explains why men will
(18:19):
get caught looking at you know, pretty woman because the
woman is you know, us hunk comes by, she can
just look at the peripherals. It's not gonna be clocked
versus you know.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Do I think that's true? Probably not, But it's a
clever idea that someone came up with.
Speaker 9 (18:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I want to look at some you know, proper studies
on you know, object location memory and see if there's
any credence to this. Maybe there is a gender difference
going on biologically, and I want to find out if
there's a way we can combat this and reverse the cursor,
maybe get better. Can we do better for our wives?
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Yeah, out there who are just desperately in need of help.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, So that's that's what we'll do.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
After the break.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
All right, we are back I'm Annie, I'm Noah Devin.
So I set out to find out why men are
worse than women at finding things in their own home.
I looked into a lot of research over the decades,
and I spoke to a man who co authored a
meta analysis on gender differences in object location memory. Oh,
so seems like maybe an answer, yeah exists.
Speaker 9 (19:33):
I'm Albert Posma. I'm professor in europe psychology in Utrecht
University in the Netherlands, and my research is in the
so called memory and space lab. So we study how
human memory works and also spatial memory works, and also
how it can fail, what can go wrong.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
So this paper of his was published in two thousand
and seven. It looked at dozens of different studies to
see how gender impacts object location memory. So I asked
what a typical experiment looks like for this sort of thing.
But first, we're going to do it right now ourselves
a little surprise.
Speaker 6 (20:11):
Dude, did you hide some surprise experiment?
Speaker 1 (20:15):
So a classical one is a sheet of paper with
a number of drawings of objects on it.
Speaker 6 (20:19):
I feel like this is like the Trump presidential test.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Yeah, basically, amster dog, You've got to remember.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
It you study it for a time, and then you
get a second sheet of paper and you have to
mark which drawings have moved positions, put it cross through
any items that are new. Ready, oh go.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
So I also if there's on location, I'm looking to
my dumb as I have been thinking about.
Speaker 6 (20:40):
What the exs you actually are are.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
There's also versions of this on a computer where you
have to place the objects back to their original place.
And there's natural environment tests where you study a room
and have to memorize the object locations in a similar fashion.
So that's more realistic to kind of what we're actually
talking about, where you would kind of have a room
set up, kind of like an I spy. Yeah, we
put it to the test. My wife and I did
it this morning, and now it's your return.
Speaker 6 (21:04):
And I'm looking at mine.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I'm not looking at shit. I'm looking at my paper,
all right and time. As for the results of our
budget version of the experiment, Devin and many actually overperformed
for men. Congrats boys. If you want to take the
test yourself or just see what it looks like, you
can check out our newsletter in the show notes below.
(21:25):
Now let's get to the actual science. So having done this,
I want to know kind of what are the actual
outcomes in the studies, the ones that have done this
more professionally than we have here are men worse than
women at finding things? So first, doctor Postma made a
(21:48):
caveat that often these differences are over exaggerated. There are
more similarities than differences. But while men are better at
some spatial cognition tests like being able to do mental
rotation of objects, women have shown to be better overall
at tests of object location memory. Because there's so many
different factors that make it hard to pin down, but
there is kind of a measurable effect size difference for
(22:11):
this one and kind of overall in this meta analysis
they did, there is a mean way to effect size
in favor of women of zero point two sixty nine
across the eighty six total effects sizes. So, by and large,
women do show superiority in object location memory.
Speaker 6 (22:31):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, the rumors are true. They're just better validated. I
was hoping that would be like a percentage, it's not. Yeah.
And then there's also all this stuff once you kind
of get into the fine prints of like if it's
masculine coded objects, men are better versus feminine coded ones
and neutral, which is funny.
Speaker 6 (22:50):
You know what's funny.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
I think I connected with some of the what people
say that feminine code because I was like ironing board.
Speaker 6 (22:56):
I know's I love ironing boards. I remember where that
is my tea.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
I got two different teapots, so I know exactly where
those were there, you go, I knew where the flowers were.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 6 (23:06):
None in the maskless stuff stood out to me.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
I misplaced the dumbo. Yeah, I need to hit the gym.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
But I ask why he thinks this is so. Some
of the thoughts behind this are exposure. So if you
do these exercises like searching for ketchup in the fridge,
you'll get better at it. And others expectations.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
And I know there have been studies that if you
label them as a spatial cognition test, you get larger
differences between men and women. Then if you don't label them,
it could be that that women think, oh, this is
spatial thinking, I'm not good in this. Then they do
slightly worse than men.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
And then still there might be some hardwiring due to
the fact that effect sizes remain stable over many studies
over decades. And here's another note which explains some other
studies that show men are better at navigating space, so
like using roadmap, et cetera. So this is doctor Postma
talking about relative location versus exact location.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
So women are slightly better in memorizing where things are.
One important reason, if I can explain this, could be
that in memorizing the locations of objects, it often is
not the exact position that's so important, but it's the
(24:27):
global position that's important. You can try to memorize where
you've left your headphones. They could be on the table,
but the exact position on the table is not that important.
It's the relative location. So it's knowing in which container
(24:47):
location items can be found that's enough.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
In the studies say this where men will be better
at being like, Okay, I know that mug moved six
inches over that way, but women are better at knowing okay,
the mug is to the left of the pot or whatever.
So those relative things versus like precision, Yeah, which is interesting.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Which like to be fairer to women. The precision thing
is way less important.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Well yeah it doesn't like it doesn't help me, yeah
at all. If you're practicing these things by going into
the cabinets or the fridge, et cetera. Naturally you're gonna
need to know where items are. So if women are
typically cooking more, then they're going to be navigating those
items much more than someone who isn't. And maybe the
man is going to be better at finding the tools
(25:38):
in the garage.
Speaker 6 (25:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, So it's just the roles that you're playing, Yeah,
and it makes sense, you know, and all these things.
Of course, the studies say like it changes by population
and individual. I'm always kind of hesitant to even do
episodes like this because it is like, yeah, men be
like this, and you know women aren't. You know, women
know where the spices are yea. But that said they do,
(26:02):
err yeah yeah. And then going into that kind of
idea of is there a hardwired difference? You know, we
mentioned the intro, there's theories that this goes back to
hunter gatherer days, that sort of stuff, where maybe there
is an eventually some sort of genetic position. Yeah, so
I asked about that, and that comes up in the
studies too, where people do have this theory and they're
actually looking into it.
Speaker 6 (26:23):
You know.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Of course, it is impossible to do an experiment on
this given we don't have time machines.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
I like the basic idea that there was some deficion
of labor in or ancestor societies and over many generations
that could be have led to a sort of hard
to wire difference in the brains. But again, most of
I think is that there was joined labor in many things.
(26:53):
So men have to gather also vegetables that could be eaten,
and women also had to do loom, distance estimations or
certain things. So again it could be a small driving force,
but not too much.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
It's not as black and white as like men never
had to look for things that were still you know,
advice versa. Yeah, so it would be a very lazy
excuse for me to say.
Speaker 6 (27:23):
That's why I can't back in the day, What do.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
You expect me to do? I'm out walking around the
world and hunting. You know. Always important to note that.
Speaker 6 (27:31):
So we can't completely discount it.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yeah, it's not like totally garbage, but you know, you
can't necessarily wait it so heavily because we can't prove it.
Speaker 6 (27:41):
You know.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
It's more like here's maybe a possible factor into it,
along with current environmental things and all that. Just like
roles that we have in our own house or outside
of it. That sort of thing makes sense. Yeah, and
then I ask, you know, how can we improve Believe
it or not, there's no simple It's a matter of
being intentional and systematic. So if you don't have some
(28:04):
organizational system, or we don't have one that you know yet,
you should learn it. So okay, you write spices on
the left, green spaces on the right, et cetera. And
just being intentional when you put things back or take
the things, and it's basically just practice and eventually you
will learn this.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:21):
Like, for example, if you say you're in a kitchen
and you're like, all right, this is where we put
all the appliances. So then the only thing you need
to remember is if there's an appliance, it's going to
be in this general area.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (28:32):
You don't need to know the exact location of it. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:34):
So if you have a blender, maybe you don't put
it with the beans.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah exactly. Yeah, you know when we talk about it
like this, exactly, it is common sense.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
It's the thing too where like all right, So for
this experiment, we were asked to intentionally put some effort
in remembering where these things were and then at the
end we did pretty well and remembering where they were.
And that's essentially what a lot of women are asking
their partners to do, which is just to put some
effort into it. Yeah, it's not a biological disadvantage that
(29:07):
we have. It's really about like, okay, if you look
at this for one minute.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Really think about it, and we can do better. That said,
I knew what the experiment was going into it, and
still when I was staring at the that first page
trying to memorize, I was like, I cannot I know,
I couldn't like us, and you know, I was just nervous.
And then I get to page two, I was like,
no clue. All right, folks, that's the end of the
(29:32):
main show. We're always trying new things out here at
NST Headquarters.
Speaker 6 (29:37):
So stick around after the.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Break to hear a bonus hot take from Devin.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
So my hot take, and this happened to me. I'm
not just talking about it, I'm about that life.
Speaker 6 (29:58):
Okay. I went to Caba last week. Love Cava.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Tell the people what is tava?
Speaker 5 (30:04):
Is Mediterranean bowl similar to everybody calls it Chipotle of
blah blah blah. It's Mediterranean bowls. You make your own
bowl delicious. They give you a lot of food, good portions, A.
Speaker 6 (30:17):
Great lunch option. Uh, if you work out a corporate job.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
And I was eating my bowl delicious bowl and it
was a long piece of hair in it. Oh, my
hot takes. Is not that big a deal to have
hair in your food? Yeah, I almost people get hairing
the food and they want to burn the restaurant down.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Oh yeah, it's hair.
Speaker 5 (30:40):
It's not I get it's a little bit roast, especially
if you don't see it ahead of time and it's
in your mouth and you're like, oh, this is someone
else's hair.
Speaker 6 (30:49):
It was long.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
It was a long I knew first of all. And
it wasn't my hair. Yeah, the very distinct you know.
It was a straight blonde piece of hair, and it
was like it was in there good, you know, like
it got mixed in it was it was curled up nicely,
and I just took it aside and continued.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
How far into your meal were you This was towards
the end. Yeah, so you might have been chopping.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Oh I could have been. They could have been a mouthful.
It wasn't like I saw it on top and stopped
I was in there. I may have eaten some here already.
But my thing is like, it's not that big of
a deal. And I think people get upset about it
because it reminds them that someone else made their food,
you know.
Speaker 6 (31:30):
I think people don't like the idea.
Speaker 5 (31:33):
They like the idea of the food being in front
of them, right, they like the idea of the food
being made fresh, and they like of not having to
make that food. I think the hair is a reminder
that someone else had to do labor interesting to make
your food.
Speaker 6 (31:47):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (31:48):
And because I don't think it's that if there was
a piece of hair that got into your mouth just randomly,
you wouldn't react in the same way that you do
that as oh yeah when it's in your food.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
Well, I certainly think people behave out of character when
it comes to like food service. People like yeah, especially
a fast casual. Yeah, like they're kind of people think
they're kind of below them.
Speaker 6 (32:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Remember the Chipotle saw people then going filming the Chipotle
things so they'd get bigger portions. Yeah yeah, yeah, the
saddest people in the world. And you know, I used
to be.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
A food service worker, thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Yea, And yeah I used to get like people.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
Who would come in and just like find anything to
complain about to either get a discount or in many
cases weren't even looking for a discount, just like needed someone.
Speaker 6 (32:37):
To yell at beat the outlet for today.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
Yeah, so I could see that. I could see that.
I think when I find hair in my and my food,
I think there's a good argument, like if you wanted
to be like, hey I found you go up to them, Hey,
I found some hair in my foe?
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Can I get a new one?
Speaker 6 (32:53):
I don't think it's I think that's fair to fair.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
But the reason I'm not doing that is largely out
of convenience.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I think I just can be fucking It doesn't disturb Yeah,
to your point, it doesn't disturb me that much anyway. Yeah,
if it was like, Okay, I'm noticing now there's multiple here,
like it seems like there's really something going on, but like, yeah,
it's an honest mistake. It's not even a mistake.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
Yeah, it's just that's what happened on your head. On
your head, it falls off sometimes that's it. Yesterday I
was watching a video where this guy had he went
to some place and got like some pancakes with some syrup,
and he opens up his container when he gets home
and there's literally bugs scroll around.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
Okay, in this instance fair multiple bugs skip.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
That local franchise and go straight to corporate.
Speaker 6 (33:44):
At that point.
Speaker 5 (33:46):
The funny thing is he took it back and the
lady was like, what do you want me to do
about it?
Speaker 6 (33:49):
You want me to make you another one.
Speaker 5 (33:51):
He's like, I don't want another one.
Speaker 6 (33:54):
Give me my money back.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I think you should shut the whole place so.
Speaker 6 (33:57):
That you know that is fair if you're being nagliged.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Hit, Yeah, something is actually dirty, you know, obviously bugs.
Speaker 6 (34:03):
If there's a bug in my food, all right.
Speaker 5 (34:06):
That's kind of a problem. Yeah, you put a band
aid in my food, all right? Come on, that's kind
of a problem.
Speaker 6 (34:13):
Yellow piece of hair.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Even with the hair, like the hair, I'm truly not
that bothered by it is of course more disturbing when
you when you're pulling out when you have already consumed.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, yeah, and it's like, oh that's rough.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
It kind of can't even eat the rest of the
bowl because I think there's more hair in there.
Speaker 6 (34:32):
I just not me.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, I'm turned off.
Speaker 6 (34:34):
Couldn't be me, I mean that thing.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
I mean it more now I might go get seconds
finished the whole thing, like, hey, there was some hearing that,
so I'm going.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
That was delicious.
Speaker 6 (34:46):
You know whose hair was that? Yeah? You know. You
come in and they do those like pranks like who
made this great job? Whose hair is this?
Speaker 1 (35:01):
No such thing as a production of collot dam No
such thing as a production of kaleidoscope content. Our executive
producers are Kate Osborne and man Gesh hot Tikidur. The
show is created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, That's me
and Devin Joseph. The man credit song by Manny. Mixing
is by Steve Bone. Additional reporting by Lauren Wilson. Our
guest this week was doctor Albert Postma from Utrek to University.
(35:23):
For more, including some of the research discussed, and to
do your own version of the object location test, subscribe
to our newsletter at No Such thing dot show. If
you have feedback for us or our question. Our email
is Manny no A Devin at gmail dot com. If
you're in the US, you can also leave us a
voicemail by calling the number in the show notes. Please
leave us a five star rating and write a nice
review if you can, and if you're a Spotify listener,
(35:44):
make sure you tap that bell but and so you
get notified for new episodes, don't miss up. Thanks and
we'll be back next week with a new episode. Bye,
Hell's Hells, Hells, Hells, no such thing.
I'm manny, and this is no such thing to show
where were subtle r dumb arguments and yours by actually
doing the research this week, where the hell is the
damn ketchup? No, there's no no such thing.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Touch, thank touch, thank.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Touch Touch.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
This week is very kind of U you know, sitcom
coded episode, very King of Queen's style. It's about, I think,
a common trope that men can't find things, you know,
in their own home, where presumably they would have some
sense of where the condiments are, spices or other everyday items.
Do you guys relate to this?
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Yes, but I will I'll add in a dandum here
that like, I've only run into this when I've lived
with my partner. So like before, when I lived by myself,
it was fine because there's only so many places a
thing could be. But these days, yeah, there's like a
learning curve a little bit when you move in with
someone who does things a little bit differently me.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I'm I'm easy.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
I'll adapt to your style, but you know it might
take me some time.
Speaker 5 (01:19):
Okay, So you're you're basically did you have this issue
with roommates?
Speaker 6 (01:26):
Are there men that you lived with?
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Not that I can remember, no, but would you be
sharing less of things? Yeah, that's what I really is about,
I think.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
But you and your wife now have lived in two
separate places where you both moved into these places together. Right,
So yeah, to some degree, you're setting up these places collaboratively.
It's not like she moved into your apartment.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yes, or you move We both went into these places.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
Okay, let's just remember that for later in the episode. Okay, Wait,
what are certain things that you like are looking for
that you can't find?
Speaker 6 (01:57):
Give us an example, you.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Know what, it's really a problem when I'm putting stuff away,
then I just put it to finding things, so I
relate to unloading the dishwasher.
Speaker 6 (02:05):
You put things in the wrong spots, or I'll.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Be like, where does this thing go? That I never
fucking use? So can I be held accountable for not
knowing where it goes? Sometimes I feel like I don't
use the thing, you know, give me, cut me some slack.
Speaker 6 (02:16):
But so you don't cook as often?
Speaker 4 (02:18):
I mean yeah, not as often for sure. But she
drinks a lot of coffee and tea and has all
these like dow hickeys that I just never use.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
You don't know where to put feminine devices.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Tea. Hey I didn't say it, but not not really
in case you're listening to this, honey, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Mean I'm trying to think what specific things definitely, like
I set it up, like spices and kind of small
items that aren't in everyday use. It could be in
one of two places and you know, maybe we have
run out of the coriander, you know, outside of the kitchen.
Other things like where a certain type of towel is
(02:59):
or anything like that, or cleaning agents. Yeah, yeah, it'll
be little things like that where it could be Okay,
it could be in the bathroom under the sink. It
could be in the kind of storage closet, it could
be in the office closet. Like you know, there's you know,
our apartments not that big, but there's just so there's
like three or four places where everything is crammed in.
And then because of that, it is kind of an
(03:21):
ordeal if you have to like move things out of
the way. So that's where I think maybe a lot
of the frustration stems from where now it's like all
right now I need to dig in here. That said,
I think some OF's this tripe comes up in a
way where it's like, well, maybe I'm asking where it
is so we can get to the answer quicker than
me digging around, maybe making a mess. And you know
(03:43):
when again, when it's not an everyday use item, it
might just be easier to have communication.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
But it's like asking my friend what time is the
Lakers game versus googling it. Like if I'm right next
to my friend, he might know the answer.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
Okay, But to stand out for the women in your
life is kind of annoying. And we talk about this
all the time when people ask you shit that they
should know or they can google.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Themselves, weaponize some competency.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
Yes, I've heard this term.
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Yes, So like if you, for example, Noah, You're like, dammit,
I need some Lifesol wipes?
Speaker 6 (04:14):
Where do we put that?
Speaker 5 (04:16):
All right, this one time you're looking for it, you
don't know. You know it could be in one of
three places. You find them, use them, you put them back.
Three months from now you're thinking about where the Lifesol
wipes are? Does that stick in your brain?
Speaker 6 (04:29):
You now know?
Speaker 5 (04:29):
Okay, I've I've was looking for the Lefsol wipes at
one time. I know it's in Yeah, i'mder the sink
or do you are you like a goldfish?
Speaker 6 (04:36):
You got start over?
Speaker 5 (04:36):
You're like, I know it's in one of these three
places I remember where if.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Everything is in order, hopefully then I typically I think
I do remember. That's okay, okay, But I think this
is also where you know, you can easily get into
a you know, teach a man to fish situation where okay,
if I actually then go and get it myself, I
will know, yes.
Speaker 6 (04:53):
Versus if you're told. If I'm told or you know,
go get.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
It grabbing for you then given to me, then maybe
I put them back, but not connecting the same way.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Yeah, just to concede a little bit here. There are
times when I'll get the answer and I think that
makes me forget about where it was, Like my my
problem that I was having was solved.
Speaker 6 (05:12):
Yeah, and so you don't even have to remember to.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
Go so like next time, I'm like, damn, I didn't
ingest that answer.
Speaker 6 (05:21):
Yeah, in one air out the other.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
But I do think some you know, many times I
think I like this, like we are remembering I think
the times we ask where the thing goes, but of
course you don't remember the times we don't ask. There
are I know true. I know all the things you do,
know where the bread is, where the cereal of the time,
(05:48):
not asking where something goes. It's those moments where I
don't know that are more memorable.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
I think, how long do you think you're going to
need until you're able to not have to ask?
Speaker 6 (05:57):
Well, I just think you're ever reached that day? Or
is it just like.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Surely over time?
Speaker 6 (06:02):
But I guess some of it.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
I don't think about it as like an assignment that
needs to.
Speaker 6 (06:06):
Be so it's not something you're striving towards.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
No, it's relatively not important in my life. Okay, other now,
you know I do want to be helpful.
Speaker 5 (06:17):
Yeah, it's not so you're not embarrassed or like concerned
that every once in a while you don't know where
something goes.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, I'm confident enough in myself that I'm able to
ask for help. Yeah, you know it's a man.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
You're confident enough of your man wife.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yes, I'm able to say, babe, I need I need
help right now? Where the hell is the catcher?
Speaker 6 (06:37):
Please?
Speaker 1 (06:38):
The eggs are getting cold, crying the eggs get it's
been six hours.
Speaker 6 (06:44):
What the help?
Speaker 1 (06:45):
I've looked everywhere?
Speaker 5 (06:53):
You know, I'm an investigative journalists here on the pod.
So I didn't want to just take what both Menny
and Noah said about their home lives and how good
they are at finding things. So I, you know, hopped
in the group chat that I have with the girls
secret we have a secret one. So I'm gonna play
some soundbites starting with Mia about how well does many
(07:17):
do in a house at finding things?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Be interested to hear this.
Speaker 7 (07:28):
I think that he's like, doesn't quite have eyes for
the kitchen, you know, keeps it sort of organized and stuff,
but it's just like when it comes to like where
things go, I'm like, oh, this is so funny that
I kind of thought that we had organized the kitchen together.
And then sometimes I'll just be looking for something and.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I'm like, aware, enough.
Speaker 7 (07:46):
Could that possibly be? And I'll find it in a
completely different place and I'm like, oh, I wouldn't have
thought to put it there when I hurt my back recently.
So then Money was in charge of like doing everything
in the kitchen, cooking, cleaning, like putting stuff away, and
I'd be sat there next to him, like at the
(08:07):
bar on a bar stool, watching him try to navigate
some of this stuff, and it was so funny where
he's like holding up a measuring cup being like I
know where this goes, but like just remind me where's
his go and I'm like, in that cupboard. The other day,
he was like putting a blender away, and he was
(08:28):
going to put it with all of the canned goods
like where we have like beans and crushed tomato sauce.
And I was like, oh, no, that doesn't go there.
That just that goes in the next cupboard. So then
he was gonna put it below with all the vinegar.
I was like, no, no, try again.
Speaker 6 (08:46):
It goes in.
Speaker 7 (08:47):
Another cupboard, and eventually he found the cupboard where we
keep appliances, and I was like, wow, that's that's so
interesting that in my mind I just kind of like
know where everything goes. But I was like, maybe he
comes into the kitchen every day and it's like what
new adventures away? Where could this go? If I thought
about it fresh?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
This is libel.
Speaker 6 (09:16):
Did you know where the blender goes?
Speaker 4 (09:18):
No?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Because I don't fucking use the blender.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
I don't use this shit, so I need your help.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
I don't put that shit anywhere.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
But I think generally ninety nine percent of the things
I can't remember where they go. It's stuff I don't use,
I will.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Say, to give me any credit, you were talking about
people don't remember when you do.
Speaker 6 (09:40):
Find things exactly. We do have an example here.
Speaker 7 (09:44):
I was surprised to learn that he does know where
we keep the like bulk salt because we have like
a what do you call it, like a little jar
with salt in it, and we refill it with this
big salt thing that's kind of hidden in the back
of the car cupboard. And I like had realized that
I was the one that you should refilled it. So
(10:05):
I was like, I wonder, like, I'm guessing he probably
doesn't know where it is. And then the other day
he refilled it, and I was like, you know what,
maybe I'm wrong, Maybe he does know where these things are.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
She's talking about me like a like a chimpion learn
how to use tools.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
A shocking new development. Surprise, you knew where the salt is?
Speaker 6 (10:24):
All right? No, yeah, you're up next.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
I know she's been waiting for this episode.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
I will say you you were marked safe in terms
of most things in the kitchen. Yeah, not a lot
of examples there you're pretty good about that.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
But Noah's issue is laundry. Mmmm.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Oh well, it's not my laundry.
Speaker 6 (10:47):
Okay, let's play it.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I'll take the many the many defense. Let's hear it.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Noah cannot discern where my clothing goes at all in
a way that's like really should be studied, Like the
sports bras are going with like the sleep clothes and
the T shirts are going in the underwear drawer, and
like every time we talk about it, he's just like, right,
but your system is hard, Like your system's hard, and
there's something about it that just truly does not compute
(11:18):
for him. Like I think if he could put it
away right, he would, but every time he does it wrong,
and every time I say, oh, that would be fine
if you did it wrong, because then you would learn,
But it's like completely unknowable to him. I will try
to explain the difference between an AARSM top and a
sports bra.
Speaker 8 (11:32):
Really hard for him to get his head around.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
And I just feel like that's related in some way
to just like complete inability to pick up on details
that feel so fundamental to like an art item's properties
to me.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
I'll explain my system, Okay, Yeah, there's pants in one drawer. Yeah,
there's like sweatshirts and sweatpants in another drawer. Above those,
I've got socks one drawer.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Same, I've got a lot, way too many draws to
it's it's more of a box, uh drawer thing, probably
not a big drawer.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Like okay, so boys, and then underwear and like athletic shorts.
Speaker 6 (12:14):
Okay, those are in the same. Yeah, my socks were
in my underwear.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
That makes sense. If I if I didn't have so many.
Speaker 6 (12:19):
Socks, you have less socks, maybe you could get it.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
And then above that T shirts one drawer and then
another one for like basically polos and kind of some
miscellaneous shirts that aren't like.
Speaker 6 (12:29):
Yeah, not a straight T shirt.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
But that's my six drawers six that's my system. Yeah,
her she is six drawers as well. It's just incomprehensible
because the workout clothes seem like sleep clothes to me.
Speaker 6 (12:43):
But they're different.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
Apparently you don't know the difference between a sports.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
And then there then there's like and then it's like socks.
It's it just to me, it seems like a jumpoint.
Every time I opened them. I'm looking and one of
her drawers doesn't really it'll open or won't close. That's
a whole over the level of frustration. Now where I'm now,
I'm really messing this thing up.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
Okay, So let me ask you. Is it what's confusing
to you? You don't know where things go, or you
can't discern what the.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I can't discern what when I open the drawer, it's
hard to tell what.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
Which is which?
Speaker 1 (13:17):
What category should be in here? It is the issue.
Speaker 5 (13:21):
Now, let's be honest here. How much of this do
you actually really care about? Like how much of this
is like if you actually put your mind to it,
could you do it?
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I mean it depends what you mean by put my
mind to it. I mean do I care about it?
Speaker 6 (13:32):
No?
Speaker 5 (13:32):
Yeah, you know, I mean like part of it is
like whatever, It's like, this is your stuff. Like if
I put something in slightly the wrong drawer, it's not
that big of a deal.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
That's more or less.
Speaker 6 (13:41):
You think that's more of it, or.
Speaker 5 (13:42):
You think it's like you're like fuck every week, I
am like trying my hardest to do this and it's
just not clicked. I mean I could yeah, I could
got a hard closed blindness or something.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I could try harder. I think it is a little
bit of closed blindness, where like I'm not just throwing
stuff in. Yeah, you're trying a little bit, but my
system is a lot simpler, I think, even though I've sick.
Speaker 6 (14:00):
Wow, guy, there are a lot simpler.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
You've got like three categories.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
Well, let me play this because Julia also said this
in her voice memo, and I think this rings tree
to me.
Speaker 8 (14:14):
Obviously, I know that's not about finding things, but I
feel like, as I'm sure you all get into, so
much of this is like dumbass, like mental load shit
of like living in partnership with anyone where one person
is going to be better at something than others. But
like the home is considered the woman's domain, whether I
want it to be or not, like whether I agree
or not, and whether the people coming into my home
(14:36):
agree or not. Ultimately, in my mind, I've been raised
with like this is my responsibility. You haven't been raised
that way, and I feel like that's obviously part of it. Okay,
you haven't been raised to really take not responsibility for this,
but like you don't see it as at all related
to who you are as a person or like a
value about you it's not as important to you to
(14:57):
know where things go because it's keeping an organized is
not a value judgment on you as a person, in
your capability to exist in the world in general. And
so like then being met with obviously wanting to be
a good partner and wanting to be helpful, then being
intently bad at something like that like feels bad. So
then it's kind of futile.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
You think that rings true to you that like you
just don't view it as like, well, you don't see
it as a reflection.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
I don't think it's you. I think there are worse
character flaws for someone to have. And you know, I
think in a perfect world we would all be able
to mess up where things are, you know, And it's
it's sad that this is what society has done to
our queens, my queen specifically.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
Yeah, people are dying.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
This is like they're big There are bigger issues in
a worried about the war is not top of the list.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
And if I can't, I can't distinguish the unicule tops
like have you seen the news?
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Yeah, because in the White House, speaking in a group chat,
I want to make it clear both of them are like, oh,
this isn't really that big of a deal in our relationship.
Speaker 6 (16:05):
But I was.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
I was listening to what she was saying about, like
what you're expected to do, or like what the home
is a reflection on. But I kind of agree with
no where we're like, yeah, it should be the case
that they're allowed to make more mistakes, not the case
that I should be perfect at putting stuff away.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
I like what Julia says about like it doesn't matter
kind of what we think, because it's like, yeah, if
someone shows up to your house and your home is
a mess, yeah, they're not going to say oh God,
damn manny or no, or I'm like, oh, what are
Julian and mea doing?
Speaker 6 (16:32):
Like this place is a it's a hell hole.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
You know, nothing's organized, it's all over the place, right,
So it is a reflection of the women.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
I don't know about if I agree with that so much.
If someone's apartment was dirty, I'd be like, it's the
guy doing this, they're.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Dirty, or but yes, you would think it'd be like, wow,
I can't believe she puts up with that.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
Yes, you would think it's a want like she is,
because guys are expected to be dirty and the women
are supposed to counter.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
It, honestly, genuinely speaking, probably like the war of feminism
in the past, like fifty sixty years has allowed these
kind of uffs to be on equal a little closer
to equal standing today than like in the fifties or
sixties or seventies. Of course, if there was a dirty house,
it'd be like who the hell did you marry?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Who's this woman?
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Yeah, Now it's more expected that men should help out
a bit in the home, but it's cenerally still not
you know, it's not fifty to fifty, but it is
is less like, you know, guy goes to work, shows
up at home and does absolutely nothing right, like they're
I feel like guys get like shirtain chores now and
like yeah, ahead of or own household.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So there's been a couple of theories on this one
that I think is largely debunked is that this goes
back to our you know, hunter gatherer yeah, cavement. The
theory is like, because men would go out to hunt,
mm hm, we'd be we'd be looking for you know,
animals moving holding like a bow and arrow or a spear,
I guess, so you're looking for things that are moving
(17:56):
out in the land.
Speaker 6 (17:57):
Things that are stationary.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yeah, things that are stationary, we're blotting that out. It
doesn't matter because we're not going after that, you know,
we're looking for the will to beast or whatever. That's incredible.
And then people were also saying that, like, uh, men's
peripheral vision is worse because we're laser focused on what's
in front of us, which also explains why men will
(18:19):
get caught looking at you know, pretty woman because the
woman is you know, us hunk comes by, she can
just look at the peripherals. It's not gonna be clocked
versus you know.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Do I think that's true? Probably not, But it's a
clever idea that someone came up with.
Speaker 9 (18:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I want to look at some you know, proper studies
on you know, object location memory and see if there's
any credence to this. Maybe there is a gender difference
going on biologically, and I want to find out if
there's a way we can combat this and reverse the cursor,
maybe get better. Can we do better for our wives?
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Yeah, out there who are just desperately in need of help.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, So that's that's what we'll do.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
After the break.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
All right, we are back I'm Annie, I'm Noah Devin.
So I set out to find out why men are
worse than women at finding things in their own home.
I looked into a lot of research over the decades,
and I spoke to a man who co authored a
meta analysis on gender differences in object location memory. Oh,
so seems like maybe an answer, yeah exists.
Speaker 9 (19:33):
I'm Albert Posma. I'm professor in europe psychology in Utrecht
University in the Netherlands, and my research is in the
so called memory and space lab. So we study how
human memory works and also spatial memory works, and also
how it can fail, what can go wrong.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
So this paper of his was published in two thousand
and seven. It looked at dozens of different studies to
see how gender impacts object location memory. So I asked
what a typical experiment looks like for this sort of thing.
But first, we're going to do it right now ourselves
a little surprise.
Speaker 6 (20:11):
Dude, did you hide some surprise experiment?
Speaker 1 (20:15):
So a classical one is a sheet of paper with
a number of drawings of objects on it.
Speaker 6 (20:19):
I feel like this is like the Trump presidential test.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Yeah, basically, amster dog, You've got to remember.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
It you study it for a time, and then you
get a second sheet of paper and you have to
mark which drawings have moved positions, put it cross through
any items that are new. Ready, oh go.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
So I also if there's on location, I'm looking to
my dumb as I have been thinking about.
Speaker 6 (20:40):
What the exs you actually are are.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
There's also versions of this on a computer where you
have to place the objects back to their original place.
And there's natural environment tests where you study a room
and have to memorize the object locations in a similar fashion.
So that's more realistic to kind of what we're actually
talking about, where you would kind of have a room
set up, kind of like an I spy. Yeah, we
put it to the test. My wife and I did
it this morning, and now it's your return.
Speaker 6 (21:04):
And I'm looking at mine.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I'm not looking at shit. I'm looking at my paper,
all right and time. As for the results of our
budget version of the experiment, Devin and many actually overperformed
for men. Congrats boys. If you want to take the
test yourself or just see what it looks like, you
can check out our newsletter in the show notes below.
(21:25):
Now let's get to the actual science. So having done this,
I want to know kind of what are the actual
outcomes in the studies, the ones that have done this
more professionally than we have here are men worse than
women at finding things? So first, doctor Postma made a
(21:48):
caveat that often these differences are over exaggerated. There are
more similarities than differences. But while men are better at
some spatial cognition tests like being able to do mental
rotation of objects, women have shown to be better overall
at tests of object location memory. Because there's so many
different factors that make it hard to pin down, but
there is kind of a measurable effect size difference for
(22:11):
this one and kind of overall in this meta analysis
they did, there is a mean way to effect size
in favor of women of zero point two sixty nine
across the eighty six total effects sizes. So, by and large,
women do show superiority in object location memory.
Speaker 6 (22:31):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, the rumors are true. They're just better validated. I
was hoping that would be like a percentage, it's not. Yeah.
And then there's also all this stuff once you kind
of get into the fine prints of like if it's
masculine coded objects, men are better versus feminine coded ones
and neutral, which is funny.
Speaker 6 (22:50):
You know what's funny.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
I think I connected with some of the what people
say that feminine code because I was like ironing board.
Speaker 6 (22:56):
I know's I love ironing boards. I remember where that
is my tea.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
I got two different teapots, so I know exactly where
those were there, you go, I knew where the flowers were.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 6 (23:06):
None in the maskless stuff stood out to me.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
I misplaced the dumbo. Yeah, I need to hit the gym.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
But I ask why he thinks this is so. Some
of the thoughts behind this are exposure. So if you
do these exercises like searching for ketchup in the fridge,
you'll get better at it. And others expectations.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
And I know there have been studies that if you
label them as a spatial cognition test, you get larger
differences between men and women. Then if you don't label them,
it could be that that women think, oh, this is
spatial thinking, I'm not good in this. Then they do
slightly worse than men.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
And then still there might be some hardwiring due to
the fact that effect sizes remain stable over many studies
over decades. And here's another note which explains some other
studies that show men are better at navigating space, so
like using roadmap, et cetera. So this is doctor Postma
talking about relative location versus exact location.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
So women are slightly better in memorizing where things are.
One important reason, if I can explain this, could be
that in memorizing the locations of objects, it often is
not the exact position that's so important, but it's the
(24:27):
global position that's important. You can try to memorize where
you've left your headphones. They could be on the table,
but the exact position on the table is not that important.
It's the relative location. So it's knowing in which container
(24:47):
location items can be found that's enough.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
In the studies say this where men will be better
at being like, Okay, I know that mug moved six
inches over that way, but women are better at knowing okay,
the mug is to the left of the pot or whatever.
So those relative things versus like precision, Yeah, which is interesting.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Which like to be fairer to women. The precision thing
is way less important.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Well yeah it doesn't like it doesn't help me, yeah
at all. If you're practicing these things by going into
the cabinets or the fridge, et cetera. Naturally you're gonna
need to know where items are. So if women are
typically cooking more, then they're going to be navigating those
items much more than someone who isn't. And maybe the
man is going to be better at finding the tools
(25:38):
in the garage.
Speaker 6 (25:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, So it's just the roles that you're playing, Yeah,
and it makes sense, you know, and all these things.
Of course, the studies say like it changes by population
and individual. I'm always kind of hesitant to even do
episodes like this because it is like, yeah, men be
like this, and you know women aren't. You know, women
know where the spices are yea. But that said they do,
(26:02):
err yeah yeah. And then going into that kind of
idea of is there a hardwired difference? You know, we
mentioned the intro, there's theories that this goes back to
hunter gatherer days, that sort of stuff, where maybe there
is an eventually some sort of genetic position. Yeah, so
I asked about that, and that comes up in the
studies too, where people do have this theory and they're
actually looking into it.
Speaker 6 (26:23):
You know.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Of course, it is impossible to do an experiment on
this given we don't have time machines.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
I like the basic idea that there was some deficion
of labor in or ancestor societies and over many generations
that could be have led to a sort of hard
to wire difference in the brains. But again, most of
I think is that there was joined labor in many things.
(26:53):
So men have to gather also vegetables that could be eaten,
and women also had to do loom, distance estimations or
certain things. So again it could be a small driving force,
but not too much.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
It's not as black and white as like men never
had to look for things that were still you know,
advice versa. Yeah, so it would be a very lazy
excuse for me to say.
Speaker 6 (27:23):
That's why I can't back in the day, What do.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
You expect me to do? I'm out walking around the
world and hunting. You know. Always important to note that.
Speaker 6 (27:31):
So we can't completely discount it.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yeah, it's not like totally garbage, but you know, you
can't necessarily wait it so heavily because we can't prove it.
Speaker 6 (27:41):
You know.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
It's more like here's maybe a possible factor into it,
along with current environmental things and all that. Just like
roles that we have in our own house or outside
of it. That sort of thing makes sense. Yeah, and
then I ask, you know, how can we improve Believe
it or not, there's no simple It's a matter of
being intentional and systematic. So if you don't have some
(28:04):
organizational system, or we don't have one that you know yet,
you should learn it. So okay, you write spices on
the left, green spaces on the right, et cetera. And
just being intentional when you put things back or take
the things, and it's basically just practice and eventually you
will learn this.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:21):
Like, for example, if you say you're in a kitchen
and you're like, all right, this is where we put
all the appliances. So then the only thing you need
to remember is if there's an appliance, it's going to
be in this general area.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (28:32):
You don't need to know the exact location of it. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:34):
So if you have a blender, maybe you don't put
it with the beans.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah exactly. Yeah, you know when we talk about it
like this, exactly, it is common sense.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
It's the thing too where like all right, So for
this experiment, we were asked to intentionally put some effort
in remembering where these things were and then at the
end we did pretty well and remembering where they were.
And that's essentially what a lot of women are asking
their partners to do, which is just to put some
effort into it. Yeah, it's not a biological disadvantage that
(29:07):
we have. It's really about like, okay, if you look
at this for one minute.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Really think about it, and we can do better. That said,
I knew what the experiment was going into it, and
still when I was staring at the that first page
trying to memorize, I was like, I cannot I know,
I couldn't like us, and you know, I was just nervous.
And then I get to page two, I was like,
no clue. All right, folks, that's the end of the
(29:32):
main show. We're always trying new things out here at
NST Headquarters.
Speaker 6 (29:37):
So stick around after the.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Break to hear a bonus hot take from Devin.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
So my hot take, and this happened to me. I'm
not just talking about it, I'm about that life.
Speaker 6 (29:58):
Okay. I went to Caba last week. Love Cava.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Tell the people what is tava?
Speaker 5 (30:04):
Is Mediterranean bowl similar to everybody calls it Chipotle of
blah blah blah. It's Mediterranean bowls. You make your own
bowl delicious. They give you a lot of food, good portions, A.
Speaker 6 (30:17):
Great lunch option. Uh, if you work out a corporate job.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
And I was eating my bowl delicious bowl and it
was a long piece of hair in it. Oh, my
hot takes. Is not that big a deal to have
hair in your food? Yeah, I almost people get hairing
the food and they want to burn the restaurant down.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Oh yeah, it's hair.
Speaker 5 (30:40):
It's not I get it's a little bit roast, especially
if you don't see it ahead of time and it's
in your mouth and you're like, oh, this is someone
else's hair.
Speaker 6 (30:49):
It was long.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
It was a long I knew first of all. And
it wasn't my hair. Yeah, the very distinct you know.
It was a straight blonde piece of hair, and it
was like it was in there good, you know, like
it got mixed in it was it was curled up nicely,
and I just took it aside and continued.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
How far into your meal were you This was towards
the end. Yeah, so you might have been chopping.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Oh I could have been. They could have been a mouthful.
It wasn't like I saw it on top and stopped
I was in there. I may have eaten some here already.
But my thing is like, it's not that big of
a deal. And I think people get upset about it
because it reminds them that someone else made their food,
you know.
Speaker 6 (31:30):
I think people don't like the idea.
Speaker 5 (31:33):
They like the idea of the food being in front
of them, right, they like the idea of the food
being made fresh, and they like of not having to
make that food. I think the hair is a reminder
that someone else had to do labor interesting to make
your food.
Speaker 6 (31:47):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (31:48):
And because I don't think it's that if there was
a piece of hair that got into your mouth just randomly,
you wouldn't react in the same way that you do
that as oh yeah when it's in your food.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
Well, I certainly think people behave out of character when
it comes to like food service. People like yeah, especially
a fast casual. Yeah, like they're kind of people think
they're kind of below them.
Speaker 6 (32:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Remember the Chipotle saw people then going filming the Chipotle
things so they'd get bigger portions. Yeah yeah, yeah, the
saddest people in the world. And you know, I used
to be.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
A food service worker, thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Yea, And yeah I used to get like people.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
Who would come in and just like find anything to
complain about to either get a discount or in many
cases weren't even looking for a discount, just like needed someone.
Speaker 6 (32:37):
To yell at beat the outlet for today.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
Yeah, so I could see that. I could see that.
I think when I find hair in my and my food,
I think there's a good argument, like if you wanted
to be like, hey I found you go up to them, Hey,
I found some hair in my foe?
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Can I get a new one?
Speaker 6 (32:53):
I don't think it's I think that's fair to fair.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
But the reason I'm not doing that is largely out
of convenience.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I think I just can be fucking It doesn't disturb Yeah,
to your point, it doesn't disturb me that much anyway. Yeah,
if it was like, Okay, I'm noticing now there's multiple here,
like it seems like there's really something going on, but like, yeah,
it's an honest mistake. It's not even a mistake.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
Yeah, it's just that's what happened on your head. On
your head, it falls off sometimes that's it. Yesterday I
was watching a video where this guy had he went
to some place and got like some pancakes with some syrup,
and he opens up his container when he gets home
and there's literally bugs scroll around.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
Okay, in this instance fair multiple bugs skip.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
That local franchise and go straight to corporate.
Speaker 6 (33:44):
At that point.
Speaker 5 (33:46):
The funny thing is he took it back and the
lady was like, what do you want me to do
about it?
Speaker 6 (33:49):
You want me to make you another one.
Speaker 5 (33:51):
He's like, I don't want another one.
Speaker 6 (33:54):
Give me my money back.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I think you should shut the whole place so.
Speaker 6 (33:57):
That you know that is fair if you're being nagliged.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Hit, Yeah, something is actually dirty, you know, obviously bugs.
Speaker 6 (34:03):
If there's a bug in my food, all right.
Speaker 5 (34:06):
That's kind of a problem. Yeah, you put a band
aid in my food, all right? Come on, that's kind
of a problem.
Speaker 6 (34:13):
Yellow piece of hair.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Even with the hair, like the hair, I'm truly not
that bothered by it is of course more disturbing when
you when you're pulling out when you have already consumed.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, yeah, and it's like, oh that's rough.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
It kind of can't even eat the rest of the
bowl because I think there's more hair in there.
Speaker 6 (34:32):
I just not me.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, I'm turned off.
Speaker 6 (34:34):
Couldn't be me, I mean that thing.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
I mean it more now I might go get seconds
finished the whole thing, like, hey, there was some hearing that,
so I'm going.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
That was delicious.
Speaker 6 (34:46):
You know whose hair was that? Yeah? You know. You
come in and they do those like pranks like who
made this great job? Whose hair is this?
Speaker 1 (35:01):
No such thing as a production of collot dam No
such thing as a production of kaleidoscope content. Our executive
producers are Kate Osborne and man Gesh hot Tikidur. The
show is created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, That's me
and Devin Joseph. The man credit song by Manny. Mixing
is by Steve Bone. Additional reporting by Lauren Wilson. Our
guest this week was doctor Albert Postma from Utrek to University.
(35:23):
For more, including some of the research discussed, and to
do your own version of the object location test, subscribe
to our newsletter at No Such thing dot show. If
you have feedback for us or our question. Our email
is Manny no A Devin at gmail dot com. If
you're in the US, you can also leave us a
voicemail by calling the number in the show notes. Please
leave us a five star rating and write a nice
review if you can, and if you're a Spotify listener,
(35:44):
make sure you tap that bell but and so you
get notified for new episodes, don't miss up. Thanks and
we'll be back next week with a new episode. Bye,
Hell's Hells, Hells, Hells, no such thing.
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