May 4, 2021 • 52 mins
Today we hear from the man everybody at Dunder Mifflin loved to hate, Toby Flenderson aka Paul Lieberstein. Brian and Paul go over the moment that Michael Scott’s hatred for Toby welled up inside of him, the many ways Paul was the unheralded hero of the show, and their dreams to bring the Dwight spin-off “The Farm” to the world.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
My name is Paul Lieberstein, and I am a writer
and director and producer on the Office, and I played Toby.
I've forgotten. I constantly forget that I've played Toby. Hello
and welcome, Thank you all for being here. This is
(00:27):
the Office Deep Dive, and I am your host, Brian Baumgartner.
Today we have the quadruple maybe quintuple threat, Paul Lieberstein. Now,
despite the fact that he almost forgot about it, Paul
is probably most famous for playing dunder Mifflin's h R. Rep.
(00:51):
Toby Flenderson. Toby was a fantastic character, the character that
everybody love to hate. Well maybe they just hated. Toby
was the character that everyone just hated. But let me
be very clear, Toby was hated Paul. Nobody hated Paul.
He was one of our original writers. He was a director,
(01:14):
a producer, and he was our boss. He was the
show runner on the show from seasons five all the
way through season eight, which well, that means I had
a lot to talk to Paul about. And Paul blew
my mind with so many things I had never heard before,
multiple times during this conversation. So I am very excited
(01:38):
for you all to hear it, so without further ado,
the most soft spoken man in television, Paul Lieberstein, Bubble
and Squeak, I love it, Bubble and Squeak, Bubble and Squeaker,
(01:59):
Cookie every moon lift o from the nut people. Oh
there he is great. You've been doing a bunch. I've
(02:25):
been doing a bunch. Yes, there's no way too much
about the office, I way too much. And this is
all off the record, correct, all of it. We're not
going to record record and we're not We're literally not
recording any of it. Wow, Hi, Paul, are we rolling? Um?
(02:47):
I mean you know, we're just we're literally we're just
having a conversation. Oh you know what I'm saying. Again,
it's all off the record, nothing's recorded. Um, how are you?
How's it work? Line? So all right? Yeah it looks yeah.
Things are good. Yeah. Family, family is kid, family is good.
(03:11):
Work is sort of so so, but family is good. Yeah. No, No,
that's probably accurate. Family is great. I got a lot
of joy from family and not as much from not
as much from Okay when I hear you, alright, so
rewind back in your mind like fifteen years. Okay, we're
going back like two thousand four. What were you doing
(03:33):
in your work not with your family? I don't know
what I was doing. I mean, hell, then there was
the True Care Show, and then Bernie Mac Show, and
then Greg the Bunny. I think Greg the Bunny was
the last show that I had done. You were writing
on Greg's Bunny? And then were you unemployed at that point?
(03:54):
I think I was free? You were free? Yeah? Were
you aware? I never really think about it as unemployed,
just free because like our jobs come and go, right,
So if you think about it is unemployed, you can
hit some very big loads in their trust's just they
come and go. Yeah, so you were free. I was free. Yeah.
(04:15):
Were you aware of the British version of it? Yeah,
you are very aware. I loved it. Yeah, I was
aware way before Greg was going to adapt it. I
mean it would really hit the sweet spot of what
I loved about writing UM and what I loved about
t P. What do you love about writing UM? I
(04:39):
do like trying to catch real comedy as it seems
to exist in the world for me, and I like,
you know, situations, and it's much less people cracking jokes,
and I think there's a lot of room for people
cracking jokes, comedy, you know, and I enjoy it sometimes,
but it's not what I'm interested in writing, right, Um,
(05:02):
that was really unprofessional. I didn't silence my thing, damn it. Um.
So you know, we hear noises, we hear noises that
deal and planes that fly over it's going to stop
their car? Like, what the hell was that? Um? What
was your relationship with Greg prior to you coming to
(05:23):
work on the Office? Um? Very strong released it was
he's my brother in law, right, So you've known each
other for a while for a very long time. Yeah, yeah,
and you had worked together on King of the Hill,
so you were a big fan of the Office. You
knew it before he came on to adapt it. Were
you excited about that? Thrilled? And I was thrilled when
he asked me to be part of it. And I
(05:46):
was quite nervous taking it on. But I couldn't imagine
not taking it onto because then what am I gonna do?
Just work on something that was good? Why were you nervous? Well?
Because I loved the British. It was done at a
very high level and you know, um, you know, most
adaptations don't work. But because of your relationship with Greg.
(06:09):
You didn't know that you would be working on the show,
but you showed up for some of the filming of
the pilot. Yeah, just to hang out and see how
it was going, and just this kind of a viewer.
Did you give notes? I think I suggested a few jokes,
but you know, notes seems to be a word used
when when someone has like an official role. Right, Oh shit, Okay,
(06:33):
what are your notes? You're not interested in someone's notes.
If they have some ideas, I'd love to hear their ideas, right, Um,
So when did you find out that you would be
joining the writing staff. I guess after the pilot was
picked up. We started putting it together and called. They
also didn't have a lot of money because you know,
NBC wasn't releasing a lot of money, so he had
(06:54):
a real scout and staff. And I think I was
officially three days a week, although are did doing five
days just because it was fun and there was lots
to do. Yeah. I would not like coming in and
something happened without me. It's like, wait a second, No,
we just agreed on this, so that was better to
be part of the whole thing. What specific challenges did
(07:16):
you feel or did you feel like the writer's room
felt adapting the show that you know, critically and at
least with a core group of people with such a
huge colt amazing show. I mean, obviously we were really challenged.
Everyone there loves the British show. I think we just
(07:37):
we didn't want to just copy it, nor did we
want to abandon it. But I remember Greg saying early
on that he kind of like took apart that show
like a watch and put it back together, and he
knows exactly how it works, and so I think we
just grabbed the principles of how it worked without grabbing
(07:59):
anything else. I mean, there was definitely a mirror, like
a fuzzy mirror on the English show where you could
point to a lot of things and be like, okay,
you know American version. That's so, that's the American version
of that English nag. But it really wasn't. I mean,
Jim and Tim were incredibly different, as we're done in
Pam and and you can't even begin to compare Ricky
(08:22):
and Steve. You know, do you remember feeling a pressure
to make it our own or americanize it? No, No,
it's felt the pressure to like live up to the
quality of their show, right, um, and the potential embarrassment
that we faced. Yeah, when did you learn that you
(08:46):
were also going to be an actor on the show.
So we we had a while before we started production.
We were writing and writing, and nothing about it came up.
It never crossed our mind. But I think we had
the need for someone to come in and do one line.
And Greg had this idea that he wanted to kind
(09:08):
of break down the wall between the writers and actors,
which is like very like strong, sacred wall, this big tradition,
and he thought, let's give it a try. Let's break
this down and you know, have some writers see what
it's like to be on set and have more communication
between the writers and the actors. And so I got
(09:29):
the one line. But we were up all night writing
and and it was like four in the morning, but
we finally went home and then I kind of stumbled
onto the set the next day. I had one line.
I didn't really know it very well, and I didn't
know Steve was going to improvise at all. And I
(09:52):
was so tired when we did it that I think
that would like infused the performance quite a bit. And Steve,
you know, He wasn't the giant yet you know he was.
He was kind of another actor on set, so I mean,
I can't imagine what it had been like coming in
season four and having to act for them, right, I
(10:14):
would have been really scary. But we got to know
him as we went, so it wasn't so bad. And
you know, we had such a forgiving as you know,
filming style, you kind of couldn't make a mistake unless
you broke, which happened. Which happened, But I didn't break much.
You didn't. I would just kind of stop and wait
(10:36):
for someone else to talk, which always happened. Someone would
jump in. I feel like I remember a big break
from you when Rain got really close to your face
and asked you where the Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely broke. Yeah. Um.
(10:59):
There was a moment in uh season one. I was
barely acting, you know, I was just figuring it all out,
and we were doing a scene together and they kept
trying to make me be louder and and I was like,
I don't know why I would be louder because the
person I'm talking to is right here. Why would I
be louder? And you said to me, we're sitting next
(11:20):
to the refrigerator which is off. Imagine that it's got
a really loud hum and you have to talk a
little louder like, Oh, okay, that was the beginning of acting.
So I taught you everything you know? Yeah, well you
tell me one thing that I know? Yes, yes, Wow,
(11:43):
it could have given me a little more credit there. No,
I learned from everybody on set. Oh that's amazing. You
said it's not traditional and there's this huge wall typically
between the writing staff and the actors. How do you
think that that difference and our show changed the dynamic
it would have been. I don't think I actually would
(12:04):
have come out that way if there if there was
a strict wall. We were all on the same page
with the show writers and actors, and we became so
close with each character an actor and liked them and
liked writing for them. And that often doesn't happen when
they're so separate. The writers have one idea what the
(12:26):
show is that they want to create, and the actors
have a different, and so they're fighting each other on set,
just create without ever talking. They're fighting each other, right,
So I think, yeah, it was such a it was
such a good I need to do often that wall
is there because of the producers and the director. Now,
the director typically you know, you're not supposed to have
(12:48):
any just you're supposed to be the only person talking
to you about your performance, right, And I get that,
But at the same time, if you have, you know,
the show goes for a little while. Actors know their
roles better than the director, the writers know the characters
(13:09):
better than the director, the DP knows the show better
than the director, and the directors coming in knowing the
least about the show of anybody. And we're all supposed
to like not make the show better and just wait
for the director to catch her. It's just it doesn't
really work completely right. It's the it's the thing about TV.
(13:30):
I mean, it's a great rule for a great rule
for a movie. And I mean, you know you can
see like as a director too. And we all became directors.
You know that building someone's performance, you want to tell
them just a couple of things, you can slowly try
to push them in a direction, and you know, it
matters how you say things. And I think we all
(13:51):
generally respected that right boundary while we were building a scene.
But we all talked about the scenes beforehand and afterwards
what is going to come up the stories? And when
things weren't working, we just stopped and we just talked
to each other. Yeah, I've taken that with me into
the future. Like I always will show respect to a director,
(14:13):
but I will walk over to video village and have
a conversation with the writer or the creators on set
just about the character or or what we're going for.
I feel like I'm able to have a conversation with
them and get to the core of actually what it
is they're Yeah, yeah, which is that a director is
just more skilled at having that conversation. Yeah, Yeah, I've
(14:35):
really I'm really big it with intention. Now I'm working
on The Space Force with Greg now, so we were
doing scenes with Steve and I tell him to say
whatever he wants and just tell him the intention, right,
I mean, he's gonna say whatever he wants anyway. But right, Um,
(14:58):
did you feel like you have because of your relationship
with Greg did you feel like you had a greater
accountability to him when you started working Like, did you
feel big time? I think you know, there's always this
this I when two people are working together and related,
there there's there's this sense of nepotism, you know, and
(15:23):
I felt like I had more to prove, and I
wanted to, for both of our sakes, defend against that
by just doing more and being better, you know, right, Um,
I just want to talk a little bit about the
form of the show. We began over time to find
(15:43):
elements that we felt like worked that was going to create,
you know, the best half hour of television, meaning in
diversity day for example, like setting that episode in one day,
having you know, having all episodes were one day. Those
are most yes as a rule. As a rule, yeah,
and which I as, I think that's something we broke
(16:05):
a handful of times in two And why was that important?
When we were talking about the concept of the show.
A documentary crew had come there that day for some reason,
and everything we shot was contained in like their intention
and the I know, at least the first few times
(16:25):
we broke that rule, it was because a story lingered
to the next day, so they followed it. But it
was our feeling that they weren't there every day catching everything,
whereas I think towards the end of the show we
we said, no, maybe they just are there every day.
I have never heard this before I swear to god,
(16:47):
I've never heard this before. Yeah, why why did they come?
Because they came because they knew, Um, this person was
coming to talk to Michael about you know problem they received,
you know, the Larry movement, diversity or but there there
was always that hook, right, Were they there even if
(17:07):
it was never stated or so like, oh today it's
the Christmas party? Yeah, exactly. You can imagine some days
where nothing happened and they just didn't come. That is
Oh my god, that's so awesome. Do we have that there?
I loved that so much that do we have that?
Why wouldn't we have it? Are you just recording it's
(17:29):
this sometimes? Are they just when you feel like something
interesting happening? I'm making sure that it's clear from you.
Um okay, So what did the cold opens give us then? Um?
What did that allow us to do? Aside from that
sort of core structure as we as we began to
do those, I guess that it allowed us to take
(17:51):
on something of a much smaller scope, a pure thing
like you're bringing in Chile. It was not going to
be an episode, right, It was a small thing, simple thing.
One of the office workers brings in some food, and
here's our little he fills it and there it is right,
(18:13):
I mean side note by the way, it is by
far the thing that people talk to me about the most. Oh,
there is no question. How do you feel about that? Um?
I thought it was a beautiful moment. I never thought
it would be this. It was a humongous departure from
(18:34):
almost anything that was ever done on the show. It
was kind of controversial at the time. They were some
people who didn't want to do it. Well, it's only
one character for an extended monologue, largely played in voiceover. Yes,
that ends in that. And they had shower. I showered
and showered and scrubbed and just like throwing out dirty
(19:00):
owls out of the shower to the wardrobe people. We
filmed it, obviously at the end of the day, and
Oscar and Angela and I had a dinner that night
at Mastros. We would do this occasionally, we would go
out and have a nice dinner and just talk and
be human beings instead of accountants. And I walked in
and all I could do was smell chili all over
(19:20):
my hands. Just it just it was just in my skin. Um,
all right, enough about me, So you think about the
(19:47):
office as this place of ordinary stasis. But to me,
what Greg and you did throughout the show was constantly
change something which I think created a kinetic energy that
kept spinning through. Was that something that you were thinking
(20:09):
about at the time, like trying to keep stirring that pot? Yeah? Absolutely,
I mean I always thought putting Steve in with new
blood and a new energy was like worth six episodes
of just great comedy. Just every new person that you
(20:30):
put next to him, So like Idris Elba, Charles Minor So, yes, exactly,
you know, who's clearly not a comedy guy, hasn't done
comedy before or since. But that energy next to Steve
was amazing, you know, and he just it's what happens
to him, you know, and he becomes a different parce
(20:52):
Cathy Bates next to Steve, Holly Amy Ryan Um. How
do you feel like, in addition into those things, kind
of leaning into more of the supporting cast flashing out
those stories. How did that help keep the dynamic? Oh? Yeah,
that was the key. I think. You know, this idea
that there's five characters on the show, was this age
(21:15):
old idea. You know, sitcoms have been following that pattern
for like as long as I've been watching them sixty years,
you know, Um, but there's no reason for it. And
I'd say in the beginning, you know, it was five
plus side characters, but that didn't last long. Everyone was
(21:36):
a character and pretty equal. Um. And then taking turns
and like saying okay, and again, a lot of it was,
you know, because Steve was the comedy Michael was the
comedy driver. So picking the two, picking two characters to
then create an episode around saying, Okay, this is gonna
be Michael Kevin or a Michael Stanley you know what
(21:59):
did I study? Or we could just move that around
and kind of take turns and we would get a
completely different, new, fresh dynamic going right. How do you
feel like the different relationships we move into, kind of
the love relationships. How do you feel like that made
the show different than just a comedy because Jim and
Pam was almost always played straight. Huh yeah, well it
(22:25):
was charged you now, So I guess it always felt
straight because that's what you were paying attention to. Um. Yeah,
something like a relationship. There's just more at stake, and
that's very relatable. So I think people are I think
they could be having a comic conversation and you don't
(22:46):
even hear it sometimes, right, interesting. I mean they had
a lot of you know, they had no shortage of
like pranks on Dwight, and that was a dynamic taken
from the British at these two are going to connect
with each other over pranking Twight and I think there
was a ton of comedy and us. But what you
(23:09):
saw you didn't register his comedy, because what you really
registerious love story. Right, There's another relationship that I think
was maybe my favorite in the show. Will you play
that clip? Why are you the way that you are? Honestly,
every time I try to do something fun or exciting,
(23:30):
you make it not that way. I hate so much
about the things that you choose to be. I mean
that when was the idea for that born? It wasn't
(23:51):
born in diversity. Steve wrote that speech. Yeah, he hated
And when I was watching some of those things last night,
I mean, his face anytime he is looking at you
and angry at you in a way is completely trans
It almost looks like a different person, and he's his
energy and at one point he's like, I hate your
(24:13):
lemon head or it's just crazy, it's like I'm a
Nazi and he thinks he's doing a service to the
world by hating me. Well that, well, that's the other
famous one, right, Like if I had two bullets and
there was Hitler, Ben Laden and Toby, I would use
both bullets and kill Toby. I think it happened in
(24:36):
Meredith's birthday and we all had to sign that card.
So I just had to go in and said, oh,
can I have a card and sign something really quickly
and leave, and he would just watch me do it
the all time, take after takeing he was just standing
there watching and he told me afterwards said he felt
like the hate for me just just well up inside
(24:56):
him during these takes. So it was so from that moment.
Is that why you guys decided to write that story
in or to continue that. You know, a lot of
it he would come from Steve. I think the power
of it came from Steve, you know, and he would
always do more. Heven, starting with Diversity Day, who was
(25:18):
just supposed to say he would, you know, get out
or something like that, but he did more. He relished
the moment and played with it, and I think he
continues to do that, and really, you know, when we
had these thirty six minute cuts and had to decide
what would stay. When Steve loved something, he the performance
would be amazing. And I think that's what helped so
(25:40):
much of the Toby Michael stuff stay right, just his
pure power and just the pure power of his like, yeah,
being being there, corral genius. Right. Um, what was what's
the episode that you were most proud of writing? That's
a good question. Money was the first hour one that
(26:04):
I did and I directed it as well, and Greg
gave me total freedom. I ran the rewrite and everything.
I think that was the one where I like totally
had control every line of it, and I love doing that.
I'm really I don't know, I'm really proud of. I
got nominated for Directors guild Ward for or an Emmy
(26:25):
for directing that one. That one was a really big
deal of me because just where in my career it
fell right. What was different about your episodes? Was there
a particular strength or interest that you had? Um? I
liked setting up very simple situations where people were in
(26:46):
basic conflict and really just letting things play with very
like natural dialogue that I don't know, I think I
think that's probably a part of a lot of my episodes.
If I go back right in the writer's room, would you, um,
would you each have assignments based on what your strengths
are or that was irrelevant? Yeah, I mean I don't
(27:11):
know that. We would work on a story for a
while before it had a writer, and I guess in
the signing of a writer there was thought, too, who's
going to do this? Well, okay, well, because you ran
the show for a while. We're talking about more about
that a minute, So you were assigning the writers to
the particular right, So would you say, oh, this is
a b J episode and so b J you'd write
(27:33):
this or I'd never say it. No, we're not out loud,
But is that what you would think? Yeah, definitely. V
J was, Um, it's like one of the strongest joke
writers I've ever worked with. I mean, he does a
lot of a lot of strength. Everyone had a lot
of overall strengths, but his his sense of the joke
was extremely sharp, and certain episodes, you know, kind of
(27:56):
require that. Right. What about Mindy? You know Mindy, I
probably wouldn't have given her like an episode that had
like it was based on lots of twists and turns
and big plot things because she that was not her
interest and people would excel when they're following their interests,
you know. I mean she obviously she loved the romantic comedy,
(28:18):
but it wasn't just that she loved She wrote the Dundee's, right,
she wrote the Dundee's she wrote. I mean, she I
don't know where to begin. She was a ton of them. Yeah,
you know, when I think about Mindy wrote the Christmas
episode where you're sitting on Michael's lab, and I think
that goes to the kind of the heart of some
of the things that she did so amazingly, which was like,
(28:42):
just find something that's funny and really play it out.
And Greg loved that too, and that's one of the
reasons today were such a great team. Um. So, the
writer strike happens season four. Um do you remember anyways
specifically that the office was tied to that strike, and
(29:05):
you know, we were really having a moment in season four.
We were very well respected. There was a lot to lose,
and as it happened, the fact that Greg went out
with the writers and struck set a tone for all
the showrunners, you know, And it was because of them
(29:26):
and we could read it online and see what they
were saying. The fact that he kind of lad the
charge for shore runners to stick by the writers and
shut down the shows because technically he could have worked. Um,
I don't know that it's I mean, it was such
a weird, murky area, right. Um. You could make an
(29:50):
argument that he would have been on solid ground to
continue to produce the shows. And you could also make
an argument that you know, he had he had responsibility
too as a writer to to stop writing, because both
were possible. He had a choice to make, you know,
and a lot of show runners were very concerned about
their shows and they do the best. They had to
stockpile scripts, and I think, you know, the fact that
(30:12):
Greg was striking was a big part of Steve not
crossing the picket line, and that was what brought the
the office to stop. My bigest lesson from the strike was,
you know, I had taken notes from a lot of
(30:33):
directors as I was studying to be one. So we
were in the middle of dinner party we were about
to shoot it, and one director scattered it. It was
as as if like things were being presented to him
and he was figuring out how he was going to
shoot it, and and then we came back that event
that director was not available and Paul Fi. We got
(30:55):
Paul Fi to direct Dinner Party, and he came in
and did the exact same scatter out, but bent that place.
He came in with a vision and bent the place
to suit it. He was like, paint these walls and too,
you know. And it was then that I learned what
a scout was, how how I needed to approach a
(31:16):
scout as a director. I should fully imagine this space
working for me in every possible way I can and
say it. And I need to imagine it now in
the scout because three hours from now it's too late.
I didn't tell the people what to do. Amazing. Um,
how did you feel about when Greg decided to leave
(31:37):
and go develop parks and recreation? I know he was
never gone gone, but how did you feel? And when
did you find out that you and Jen we're going
to take the show over. Yeah? He and I just
kind of went on a walk on Satici and he
told me h and asked me if I wanted to
do jan I don't thought it was a big honor.
Did you say yes right away? Yeah, definitely right. I
(32:00):
thought it was pretty pretty amazing. Were you didn't scare you?
Definitely sure? No, of course. Um, so what how did
the writer's room change just pragmatically with with Greg and
Mike both leaving? Um, Jen and I worked together so well,
(32:23):
and we could we could kind of work together or
take turns, kind of covering for each other, and it
thinks got really late and we both liked each other's
writing so much that it just made it easy. Right.
I remember that it didn't feel to me as though
much had changed, because it wasn't like he was gone
(32:45):
gone right. It wasn't like goodbye Greg. Yeah, And I
think he really wanted to be the face of that too,
so he was. He would be on the cause of
the network. He would be at all the table reads
and the places where he would typically interact. He kept interacting.
He was definitely worried how people would view it. But
(33:09):
you know, at the same time, like Jen and I,
I loved Gregg's writing and it wasn't like you know,
and I've been on a lot of shows that you know,
when someone goes there, there could be the sad Finally
we get to do it all the way now, we're
really going to pick up this show. You know people
are gonna see the difference here. Um No, that wasn't
(33:30):
it at all. We loved Greg's writing, We had loved
what he did, and we just wanted to keep doing that,
even though he gave me authority. I wanted him to
like the show. You know, this was his show, and
after a table, if he didn't like it, I would
change it. I don't think I ever just said, well,
I like it, so we're doing it right. We would
(33:52):
always find the overlap of where we both like the show.
Do you feel like you have a different sensibility? Are
generally similar? We have a big overlap, but then we
also have Harry's what we don't overlap? What? What would
you say the biggest thing in the non overlap is
(34:13):
I don't know. It's not super clear to me, but
I know I used to definitely feel much more comfortable
going a lot darker than he would. That's exactly what
I was going to say, Yeah, I could go dark.
(34:46):
So when did you find out that Steve was not
going to come back. Did you feel confident that the
show could continue or were you not sure? I'm not sure.
I thought there was a lot of good reasons why
we could keep going ing, and you know, we had
done so much. I mean, he was seven seasons. I
just thought there wasn't a lot left so the show
(35:09):
could either find a new direction or it wouldn't work.
And we talked so much about what kind of new
directions it could be. But then ultimately I wanted to
keep going because we had a great cast. And that's
the decision not to bring in somebody else huge from
the outside and try to do a big gorilla, which
we had talked about two but we brought in James Spader,
(35:32):
we did, but he was part time and it revolved
and then we and then we did Katherine Tade for
a while in that job. I think we were we
were finding it. It was not easy in season eight
to figure out what the glue of the show was, right,
it had a strong core. Before it was there was
(35:56):
a guy who wanted more from this group than the
group could get, and almost everything came out of it right.
I had a discussion I think it was with Jenna.
I think it was her. If it wasn't her, we
can change this. But I had a discussion with somebody
who talked about one of their biggest disappointments or regrets
(36:18):
in the show was that it wasn't there wasn't enough
confidence given to the people that we had, feeling like
that we had to bring somebody else in. I think
what I said, which I can sympathize with the decision,
was that at that point, nobody who was there felt
like a boss. Yeah. And the other thing was we
(36:41):
were getting a lot of pressure from the network. So
the network, who had historically been behind us so much,
just changed hands, just changed hands to Comcast just as
Steve was leaving, and they wanted a big gorilla. They
wanted a big star to come in and take it over,
(37:02):
which we fought. How to say, like, they didn't even
know all the characters names at that point, they weren't
really following the show. I think we were just a
disappointing line item at the time. And then all of
TV was losing its ratings, all of TV, right, and
we didn't know how much of a hit we would
take with Steve going um, but we took a pretty
(37:26):
big one, and they wanted those numbers up. But at
the time, I mean, what we know now is that
was happening everywhere and people were starting everywhere happened with
if he had stayed right, Um, there was no way
to know, but that was behind a lot of the
pressure we were getting. I was kidding. Was there a
(37:50):
specific name that Comcast was wanting to take over? Um,
lots of names were floated, Julia, Louis Dreyfuss, James Candelfini,
someone we actually met with to explore it. But again,
that was going to be in the part time range
because I really did not want to put a new
(38:13):
person in the office in Michael's chair. I just thought like,
we're never going to get that right, and we should
just diffuse that thing and focus on everyone we had
interested what I was doing. And you know, even when
people came in, they weren't the focus. No, absolutely, I'm surprised.
(38:35):
I'm surprised. Yeah, Jenna's kinda I can't remember who it was,
but I'll tell you so you can get mad later.
I'm not mad, just really, really really hurt, you know. Um.
Any personal recollections from when Steve left, Oh yeah, it
was so well, we were all so tight, you know.
(38:58):
I remember like giving it like a little toast to
him and getting choked up after his last scene. Yeah,
I was gonna miss him a lot and did. Yeah,
we all did as a person, as a person, yeah,
and as the genius that he was. Yeah, but I
think it was you know, our experience of doing the
(39:20):
show was the people and the talent was you know,
there's a lot to do with the product. He was
a great guy who set a tone on you know,
I don't know that the first person to say this,
but he set this tone that it was really important
to treat people well and everyone was important. But he
was also just really fun to have her own. Yeah.
(39:41):
I think we all just were said to see him go. Yeah. Um.
So how much were you aware of what Greg's vision
for the entire series would be? Like it was I
remember hearing early on, so I know you did that
there was beginning, you know, the documentary crew comes, there
(40:04):
was a middle, and that Greg had a specific idea
for what the end would be. How early on were
you aware of that very you know, those ideas were
out really well, you know season once and two. You
these ideas, especially season one, and then and be like okay,
(40:24):
that's an idea for season eight, that's an idea for
you know that in our last season, you know, and
like breaking the fourth while on the documentary crew Um
and including that that was an idea that was early
Um that we just but we knew that was going
(40:45):
to be at the end put Away. Yeah right, we
knew it blew up the show, right, And was there
ever any talk of not doing that but being like
e Er or something where it would just keep going forever.
Was there ever any real talk of that just keep
show going forever? Yeah? Totally. Where did you fall on that?
(41:08):
I feel it was not possible to make this transition
idea to slowly bring people on and shift focus. Everyone
would have to really be on the same page for
to want that to happen, and not everybody wanted that
to happen, and Greg really wanted to finish the story,
and you can't finish the story with everybody gone, right,
(41:31):
I mean, you would not have had a satisfying ending
if after twenty if the show is still on now
and after another five ten years, we go, okay, well
now we're going to break the fourth wall. The the
kind of survivor element where we just if we are
just in season eighteen right now or whatever it would be,
(41:52):
this show wouldn't be as regarded as well as it is,
and Survivor would probably be regarded higher than it is
if it had ended after ten. Right, was there any
noticeable change in Gregg coming back full time for that
last season and your roles changing again? Well, I spent
(42:14):
that year mostly trying to get the spin off going,
writing that, casting that going, focusing on that development. So
I really wasn't a daily part of the writer's room
season nine, season nine, Yeah, yeah, there was a part
of me that was like that I had kind of
finished in a way, but you were still writing, right,
(42:35):
We're still acting in every episode and no, uh, you know,
aside from writing the Farm, that's the only episode I
wrote that year. Writing and directing the Farm I think
was the only time I directed that year too. How
disappointed were you that that that did not go forward?
Very disappoint and I think it would have been a
really big hit. Why did it not? Again, this is
(42:58):
the shift over to the the new management Comcasts. I mean,
I don't see how someone could not give the Farm
a chance, right, to not give the Dwight spin off
like a chance like maybe what if it does find itself?
You know? Interesting? So for you, it was really about
(43:20):
Comcast comes in and buys and doesn't have the seven
year history with the show is essentially coming in now
as Steve is gone, Ratings are going down and you're
finding yourself creatively, and so there hasn't been an investment
or a buy in exactly. Yeah. So really we needed
(43:43):
a Kevin Riley. Yeah, we needed a Kevin Riley to
be there at the time, to be at Comcast, someone
that saw what could happen. Yeah. Um, why do you
think that the show has become now the most watch
show in television five six years after we've shot anything?
(44:05):
Is that true? The most Yeah, fifty two something billion
minutes watched. That's a hundred thousand people watching it from
the moment they're born until they die, living an average lifes. Wow.
(44:27):
Are they doing that to some people? I think they should.
It's mean. I mean they wouldn't have a diverse life,
but potentially a happy life. Um. Do you feel that
the show in your interactions with people, that it's it's
bigger today than it was? Definitely? Definitely Yeah, and going younger. Yeah,
(44:50):
why do you think that is? Why is it connecting
with people maybe even more so now today? In a
way it was built for stream me I don't know,
there's the it's a very hard you know, there's a
phenomenon out there. It's very hard to explain. But um
streaming one you kind of pay attention, and a lot
of shows you're not given any permission to pay attention
(45:12):
because they're so forced down your throat. UM streaming is
lightly serialized, like the best of streaming is lightly serialized.
And we were, you know, with no knowledge of what
streaming was. That that was just how we thought the
show would be best. We told stories over years and
(45:35):
we we really like the mini arcs. I don't know,
as a viewer, if I'm watching something streaming and it's
it's too I have to wait too long for a conclusion,
I get really angry and I'm out. We found these
six arcs and thirteen arcs, you know that we did
a lot of three six you know, we had depending
(45:57):
on what it was. But like Michael Scott Paper Company,
you know, where he takes a journey over six episodes, right,
which is perfect for streaming. It's very satisfying to watch
six episodes in the beginning something, see the end of it,
and then you know, by the end of it, we're
back to We're back to where we were, even though
(46:18):
we're playing a giant dark with Michael Scott, you know
that takes seven years to go through about him becoming
kind of a whole person. So I think I think
we're built for this platform. We're built for today really well.
So in the last line of the show, Pam says
this line about there's beauty and ordinary things. It being
(46:41):
Greg's episode, who wrote it, I have to assume that
that's what he thought the show was about, that there
is beauty in ordinary things. What did you think it
was about? But yeah, I guess that I thought there was.
I was probably a little more focused on there's there's
comedy in ordan very things. I mean, and and I
(47:02):
know he felt both, but um, you know, the the
commedy that comes from very small, ordinary conflicts is my
favorite stuff. And uh, you know, when we hit that,
I think we were at our past. You know, right,
(47:24):
what are you most proud of? I mean, you led
almost half of the run. I'm most proud of what
we were as an aggregate. You know, it wasn't a
single moment that I'm more proud of than others. Although
I'm very proud of a talking head in which you
did not know the alphabet Lemno. Yeah, yeah, that's what
(47:46):
I mean. That's what I mean. That little glint, that
little glinting in your eye. I go, We'll here is
something I haven't I haven't ever revealed this before ever,
but I remember you saying to I mean, it was
just one of those moments about like we were getting
towards the end. We're up in your office and you
said to me, we need you because Steve is leaving,
(48:11):
only leaves us Dwight. We need someone to do the
really really dumb things. So sorry, we need somebody to
do the really really dumb things now that Michael was gone,
as Dwight is there, we need someone to do the
things that are bigger and or dumber than Dwight. No, okay,
(48:32):
thanks boss. Yeah yeah, um, but you This is sort
of a side note, but I'm most thankful for all
of the relationships that I made, and I'm thankful to
you that you trusted me and gave me an opportunity
(48:54):
to direct. It was a no brainer for me. Really,
I know you do an awesome job because I'm smarter
than everybody else. Yeah, I played dumb, but actually smart
know you you're a highly. You're highly trained actor, right,
You're very skilled and trained, and you knew a lot
about acting, and we were an actor's show, right, so
(49:18):
I thought that was a no brainer. You know, I
knew you would do it an amazing tob Well, thank you.
I look forward to the phone call to come direct
here your next show. Um, dude, I appreciate you so
much coming in. It's so fun to talk about this.
I was with Steve yesterday and some way we just
(49:40):
started talking about Michael Scott for so long on the
office days. It's fun to do. I didn't want it
for a long time. It's like, come on, put this
show to bed, um, But it feels good now I
can talk about it. Yeah. Well, I think that you
(50:00):
and I hope this doesn't sound weird. I feel like
you're the unsung hero of the show that you don't
get the credit that you deserve for your vision and
innovation that happened during the time that you were there.
So I want you to know that I appreciate you. Yeah,
no one said that. I do think you're an idiot.
(50:24):
Well yeah, it takes away some of the good feelings. Okay, Um,
but thank you for coming in. Thanks for having me here.
Oh good, there you have it. That is Paul Lieberstein.
(50:50):
Thank you Paul for sitting down with me. You know
how much I love you. And I don't know is
it too late to start to petition to revamp the farm.
I'll ask Rain if he's free. Uh. In any case,
thank you all for listening. I absolutely love sharing these
interviews with you, so I hope you're loving them. To
(51:12):
have a great week, everybody. The office. Deep Dive is
hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our
executive producer, Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,
(51:33):
our producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is
Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore.
Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great
friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth
Olansky
My name is Paul Lieberstein, and I am a writer
and director and producer on the Office, and I played Toby.
I've forgotten. I constantly forget that I've played Toby. Hello
and welcome, Thank you all for being here. This is
(00:27):
the Office Deep Dive, and I am your host, Brian Baumgartner.
Today we have the quadruple maybe quintuple threat, Paul Lieberstein. Now,
despite the fact that he almost forgot about it, Paul
is probably most famous for playing dunder Mifflin's h R. Rep.
(00:51):
Toby Flenderson. Toby was a fantastic character, the character that
everybody love to hate. Well maybe they just hated. Toby
was the character that everyone just hated. But let me
be very clear, Toby was hated Paul. Nobody hated Paul.
He was one of our original writers. He was a director,
(01:14):
a producer, and he was our boss. He was the
show runner on the show from seasons five all the
way through season eight, which well, that means I had
a lot to talk to Paul about. And Paul blew
my mind with so many things I had never heard before,
multiple times during this conversation. So I am very excited
(01:38):
for you all to hear it, so without further ado,
the most soft spoken man in television, Paul Lieberstein, Bubble
and Squeak, I love it, Bubble and Squeak, Bubble and Squeaker,
(01:59):
Cookie every moon lift o from the nut people. Oh
there he is great. You've been doing a bunch. I've
(02:25):
been doing a bunch. Yes, there's no way too much
about the office, I way too much. And this is
all off the record, correct, all of it. We're not
going to record record and we're not We're literally not
recording any of it. Wow, Hi, Paul, are we rolling? Um?
(02:47):
I mean you know, we're just we're literally we're just
having a conversation. Oh you know what I'm saying. Again,
it's all off the record, nothing's recorded. Um, how are you?
How's it work? Line? So all right? Yeah it looks yeah.
Things are good. Yeah. Family, family is kid, family is good.
(03:11):
Work is sort of so so, but family is good. Yeah. No, No,
that's probably accurate. Family is great. I got a lot
of joy from family and not as much from not
as much from Okay when I hear you, alright, so
rewind back in your mind like fifteen years. Okay, we're
going back like two thousand four. What were you doing
(03:33):
in your work not with your family? I don't know
what I was doing. I mean, hell, then there was
the True Care Show, and then Bernie Mac Show, and
then Greg the Bunny. I think Greg the Bunny was
the last show that I had done. You were writing
on Greg's Bunny? And then were you unemployed at that point?
(03:54):
I think I was free? You were free? Yeah? Were
you aware? I never really think about it as unemployed,
just free because like our jobs come and go, right,
So if you think about it is unemployed, you can
hit some very big loads in their trust's just they
come and go. Yeah, so you were free. I was free. Yeah.
(04:15):
Were you aware of the British version of it? Yeah,
you are very aware. I loved it. Yeah, I was
aware way before Greg was going to adapt it. I
mean it would really hit the sweet spot of what
I loved about writing UM and what I loved about
t P. What do you love about writing UM? I
(04:39):
do like trying to catch real comedy as it seems
to exist in the world for me, and I like,
you know, situations, and it's much less people cracking jokes,
and I think there's a lot of room for people
cracking jokes, comedy, you know, and I enjoy it sometimes,
but it's not what I'm interested in writing, right, Um,
(05:02):
that was really unprofessional. I didn't silence my thing, damn it. Um.
So you know, we hear noises, we hear noises that
deal and planes that fly over it's going to stop
their car? Like, what the hell was that? Um? What
was your relationship with Greg prior to you coming to
(05:23):
work on the Office? Um? Very strong released it was
he's my brother in law, right, So you've known each
other for a while for a very long time. Yeah, yeah,
and you had worked together on King of the Hill,
so you were a big fan of the Office. You
knew it before he came on to adapt it. Were
you excited about that? Thrilled? And I was thrilled when
he asked me to be part of it. And I
(05:46):
was quite nervous taking it on. But I couldn't imagine
not taking it onto because then what am I gonna do?
Just work on something that was good? Why were you nervous? Well?
Because I loved the British. It was done at a
very high level and you know, um, you know, most
adaptations don't work. But because of your relationship with Greg.
(06:09):
You didn't know that you would be working on the show,
but you showed up for some of the filming of
the pilot. Yeah, just to hang out and see how
it was going, and just this kind of a viewer.
Did you give notes? I think I suggested a few jokes,
but you know, notes seems to be a word used
when when someone has like an official role. Right, Oh shit, Okay,
(06:33):
what are your notes? You're not interested in someone's notes.
If they have some ideas, I'd love to hear their ideas, right, Um,
So when did you find out that you would be
joining the writing staff. I guess after the pilot was
picked up. We started putting it together and called. They
also didn't have a lot of money because you know,
NBC wasn't releasing a lot of money, so he had
(06:54):
a real scout and staff. And I think I was
officially three days a week, although are did doing five
days just because it was fun and there was lots
to do. Yeah. I would not like coming in and
something happened without me. It's like, wait a second, No,
we just agreed on this, so that was better to
be part of the whole thing. What specific challenges did
(07:16):
you feel or did you feel like the writer's room
felt adapting the show that you know, critically and at
least with a core group of people with such a
huge colt amazing show. I mean, obviously we were really challenged.
Everyone there loves the British show. I think we just
(07:37):
we didn't want to just copy it, nor did we
want to abandon it. But I remember Greg saying early
on that he kind of like took apart that show
like a watch and put it back together, and he
knows exactly how it works, and so I think we
just grabbed the principles of how it worked without grabbing
(07:59):
anything else. I mean, there was definitely a mirror, like
a fuzzy mirror on the English show where you could
point to a lot of things and be like, okay,
you know American version. That's so, that's the American version
of that English nag. But it really wasn't. I mean,
Jim and Tim were incredibly different, as we're done in
Pam and and you can't even begin to compare Ricky
(08:22):
and Steve. You know, do you remember feeling a pressure
to make it our own or americanize it? No, No,
it's felt the pressure to like live up to the
quality of their show, right, um, and the potential embarrassment
that we faced. Yeah, when did you learn that you
(08:46):
were also going to be an actor on the show.
So we we had a while before we started production.
We were writing and writing, and nothing about it came up.
It never crossed our mind. But I think we had
the need for someone to come in and do one line.
And Greg had this idea that he wanted to kind
(09:08):
of break down the wall between the writers and actors,
which is like very like strong, sacred wall, this big tradition,
and he thought, let's give it a try. Let's break
this down and you know, have some writers see what
it's like to be on set and have more communication
between the writers and the actors. And so I got
(09:29):
the one line. But we were up all night writing
and and it was like four in the morning, but
we finally went home and then I kind of stumbled
onto the set the next day. I had one line.
I didn't really know it very well, and I didn't
know Steve was going to improvise at all. And I
(09:52):
was so tired when we did it that I think
that would like infused the performance quite a bit. And Steve,
you know, He wasn't the giant yet you know he was.
He was kind of another actor on set, so I mean,
I can't imagine what it had been like coming in
season four and having to act for them, right, I
(10:14):
would have been really scary. But we got to know
him as we went, so it wasn't so bad. And
you know, we had such a forgiving as you know,
filming style, you kind of couldn't make a mistake unless
you broke, which happened. Which happened, But I didn't break much.
You didn't. I would just kind of stop and wait
(10:36):
for someone else to talk, which always happened. Someone would
jump in. I feel like I remember a big break
from you when Rain got really close to your face
and asked you where the Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely broke. Yeah. Um.
(10:59):
There was a moment in uh season one. I was
barely acting, you know, I was just figuring it all out,
and we were doing a scene together and they kept
trying to make me be louder and and I was like,
I don't know why I would be louder because the
person I'm talking to is right here. Why would I
be louder? And you said to me, we're sitting next
(11:20):
to the refrigerator which is off. Imagine that it's got
a really loud hum and you have to talk a
little louder like, Oh, okay, that was the beginning of acting.
So I taught you everything you know? Yeah, well you
tell me one thing that I know? Yes, yes, Wow,
(11:43):
it could have given me a little more credit there. No,
I learned from everybody on set. Oh that's amazing. You
said it's not traditional and there's this huge wall typically
between the writing staff and the actors. How do you
think that that difference and our show changed the dynamic
it would have been. I don't think I actually would
(12:04):
have come out that way if there if there was
a strict wall. We were all on the same page
with the show writers and actors, and we became so
close with each character an actor and liked them and
liked writing for them. And that often doesn't happen when
they're so separate. The writers have one idea what the
(12:26):
show is that they want to create, and the actors
have a different, and so they're fighting each other on set,
just create without ever talking. They're fighting each other, right,
So I think, yeah, it was such a it was
such a good I need to do often that wall
is there because of the producers and the director. Now,
the director typically you know, you're not supposed to have
(12:48):
any just you're supposed to be the only person talking
to you about your performance, right, And I get that,
But at the same time, if you have, you know,
the show goes for a little while. Actors know their
roles better than the director, the writers know the characters
(13:09):
better than the director, the DP knows the show better
than the director, and the directors coming in knowing the
least about the show of anybody. And we're all supposed
to like not make the show better and just wait
for the director to catch her. It's just it doesn't
really work completely right. It's the it's the thing about TV.
(13:30):
I mean, it's a great rule for a great rule
for a movie. And I mean, you know you can
see like as a director too. And we all became directors.
You know that building someone's performance, you want to tell
them just a couple of things, you can slowly try
to push them in a direction, and you know, it
matters how you say things. And I think we all
(13:51):
generally respected that right boundary while we were building a scene.
But we all talked about the scenes beforehand and afterwards
what is going to come up the stories? And when
things weren't working, we just stopped and we just talked
to each other. Yeah, I've taken that with me into
the future. Like I always will show respect to a director,
(14:13):
but I will walk over to video village and have
a conversation with the writer or the creators on set
just about the character or or what we're going for.
I feel like I'm able to have a conversation with
them and get to the core of actually what it
is they're Yeah, yeah, which is that a director is
just more skilled at having that conversation. Yeah, Yeah, I've
(14:35):
really I'm really big it with intention. Now I'm working
on The Space Force with Greg now, so we were
doing scenes with Steve and I tell him to say
whatever he wants and just tell him the intention, right,
I mean, he's gonna say whatever he wants anyway. But right, Um,
(14:58):
did you feel like you have because of your relationship
with Greg did you feel like you had a greater
accountability to him when you started working Like, did you
feel big time? I think you know, there's always this
this I when two people are working together and related,
there there's there's this sense of nepotism, you know, and
(15:23):
I felt like I had more to prove, and I
wanted to, for both of our sakes, defend against that
by just doing more and being better, you know, right, Um,
I just want to talk a little bit about the
form of the show. We began over time to find
(15:43):
elements that we felt like worked that was going to create,
you know, the best half hour of television, meaning in
diversity day for example, like setting that episode in one day,
having you know, having all episodes were one day. Those
are most yes as a rule. As a rule, yeah,
and which I as, I think that's something we broke
(16:05):
a handful of times in two And why was that important?
When we were talking about the concept of the show.
A documentary crew had come there that day for some reason,
and everything we shot was contained in like their intention
and the I know, at least the first few times
(16:25):
we broke that rule, it was because a story lingered
to the next day, so they followed it. But it
was our feeling that they weren't there every day catching everything,
whereas I think towards the end of the show we
we said, no, maybe they just are there every day.
I have never heard this before I swear to god,
(16:47):
I've never heard this before. Yeah, why why did they come?
Because they came because they knew, Um, this person was
coming to talk to Michael about you know problem they received,
you know, the Larry movement, diversity or but there there
was always that hook, right, Were they there even if
(17:07):
it was never stated or so like, oh today it's
the Christmas party? Yeah, exactly. You can imagine some days
where nothing happened and they just didn't come. That is
Oh my god, that's so awesome. Do we have that there?
I loved that so much that do we have that?
Why wouldn't we have it? Are you just recording it's
(17:29):
this sometimes? Are they just when you feel like something
interesting happening? I'm making sure that it's clear from you.
Um okay, So what did the cold opens give us then? Um?
What did that allow us to do? Aside from that
sort of core structure as we as we began to
do those, I guess that it allowed us to take
(17:51):
on something of a much smaller scope, a pure thing
like you're bringing in Chile. It was not going to
be an episode, right, It was a small thing, simple thing.
One of the office workers brings in some food, and
here's our little he fills it and there it is right,
(18:13):
I mean side note by the way, it is by
far the thing that people talk to me about the most. Oh,
there is no question. How do you feel about that? Um?
I thought it was a beautiful moment. I never thought
it would be this. It was a humongous departure from
(18:34):
almost anything that was ever done on the show. It
was kind of controversial at the time. They were some
people who didn't want to do it. Well, it's only
one character for an extended monologue, largely played in voiceover. Yes,
that ends in that. And they had shower. I showered
and showered and scrubbed and just like throwing out dirty
(19:00):
owls out of the shower to the wardrobe people. We
filmed it, obviously at the end of the day, and
Oscar and Angela and I had a dinner that night
at Mastros. We would do this occasionally, we would go
out and have a nice dinner and just talk and
be human beings instead of accountants. And I walked in
and all I could do was smell chili all over
(19:20):
my hands. Just it just it was just in my skin. Um,
all right, enough about me, So you think about the
(19:47):
office as this place of ordinary stasis. But to me,
what Greg and you did throughout the show was constantly
change something which I think created a kinetic energy that
kept spinning through. Was that something that you were thinking
(20:09):
about at the time, like trying to keep stirring that pot? Yeah? Absolutely,
I mean I always thought putting Steve in with new
blood and a new energy was like worth six episodes
of just great comedy. Just every new person that you
(20:30):
put next to him, So like Idris Elba, Charles Minor So, yes, exactly,
you know, who's clearly not a comedy guy, hasn't done
comedy before or since. But that energy next to Steve
was amazing, you know, and he just it's what happens
to him, you know, and he becomes a different parce
(20:52):
Cathy Bates next to Steve, Holly Amy Ryan Um. How
do you feel like, in addition into those things, kind
of leaning into more of the supporting cast flashing out
those stories. How did that help keep the dynamic? Oh? Yeah,
that was the key. I think. You know, this idea
that there's five characters on the show, was this age
(21:15):
old idea. You know, sitcoms have been following that pattern
for like as long as I've been watching them sixty years,
you know, Um, but there's no reason for it. And
I'd say in the beginning, you know, it was five
plus side characters, but that didn't last long. Everyone was
(21:36):
a character and pretty equal. Um. And then taking turns
and like saying okay, and again, a lot of it was,
you know, because Steve was the comedy Michael was the
comedy driver. So picking the two, picking two characters to
then create an episode around saying, Okay, this is gonna
be Michael Kevin or a Michael Stanley you know what
(21:59):
did I study? Or we could just move that around
and kind of take turns and we would get a
completely different, new, fresh dynamic going right. How do you
feel like the different relationships we move into, kind of
the love relationships. How do you feel like that made
the show different than just a comedy because Jim and
Pam was almost always played straight. Huh yeah, well it
(22:25):
was charged you now, So I guess it always felt
straight because that's what you were paying attention to. Um. Yeah,
something like a relationship. There's just more at stake, and
that's very relatable. So I think people are I think
they could be having a comic conversation and you don't
(22:46):
even hear it sometimes, right, interesting. I mean they had
a lot of you know, they had no shortage of
like pranks on Dwight, and that was a dynamic taken
from the British at these two are going to connect
with each other over pranking Twight and I think there
was a ton of comedy and us. But what you
(23:09):
saw you didn't register his comedy, because what you really
registerious love story. Right, There's another relationship that I think
was maybe my favorite in the show. Will you play
that clip? Why are you the way that you are? Honestly,
every time I try to do something fun or exciting,
(23:30):
you make it not that way. I hate so much
about the things that you choose to be. I mean
that when was the idea for that born? It wasn't
(23:51):
born in diversity. Steve wrote that speech. Yeah, he hated
And when I was watching some of those things last night,
I mean, his face anytime he is looking at you
and angry at you in a way is completely trans
It almost looks like a different person, and he's his
energy and at one point he's like, I hate your
(24:13):
lemon head or it's just crazy, it's like I'm a
Nazi and he thinks he's doing a service to the
world by hating me. Well that, well, that's the other
famous one, right, Like if I had two bullets and
there was Hitler, Ben Laden and Toby, I would use
both bullets and kill Toby. I think it happened in
(24:36):
Meredith's birthday and we all had to sign that card.
So I just had to go in and said, oh,
can I have a card and sign something really quickly
and leave, and he would just watch me do it
the all time, take after takeing he was just standing
there watching and he told me afterwards said he felt
like the hate for me just just well up inside
(24:56):
him during these takes. So it was so from that moment.
Is that why you guys decided to write that story
in or to continue that. You know, a lot of
it he would come from Steve. I think the power
of it came from Steve, you know, and he would
always do more. Heven, starting with Diversity Day, who was
(25:18):
just supposed to say he would, you know, get out
or something like that, but he did more. He relished
the moment and played with it, and I think he
continues to do that, and really, you know, when we
had these thirty six minute cuts and had to decide
what would stay. When Steve loved something, he the performance
would be amazing. And I think that's what helped so
(25:40):
much of the Toby Michael stuff stay right, just his
pure power and just the pure power of his like, yeah,
being being there, corral genius. Right. Um, what was what's
the episode that you were most proud of writing? That's
a good question. Money was the first hour one that
(26:04):
I did and I directed it as well, and Greg
gave me total freedom. I ran the rewrite and everything.
I think that was the one where I like totally
had control every line of it, and I love doing that.
I'm really I don't know, I'm really proud of. I
got nominated for Directors guild Ward for or an Emmy
(26:25):
for directing that one. That one was a really big
deal of me because just where in my career it
fell right. What was different about your episodes? Was there
a particular strength or interest that you had? Um? I
liked setting up very simple situations where people were in
(26:46):
basic conflict and really just letting things play with very
like natural dialogue that I don't know, I think I
think that's probably a part of a lot of my episodes.
If I go back right in the writer's room, would you, um,
would you each have assignments based on what your strengths
are or that was irrelevant? Yeah, I mean I don't
(27:11):
know that. We would work on a story for a
while before it had a writer, and I guess in
the signing of a writer there was thought, too, who's
going to do this? Well, okay, well, because you ran
the show for a while. We're talking about more about
that a minute, So you were assigning the writers to
the particular right, So would you say, oh, this is
a b J episode and so b J you'd write
(27:33):
this or I'd never say it. No, we're not out loud,
But is that what you would think? Yeah, definitely. V
J was, Um, it's like one of the strongest joke
writers I've ever worked with. I mean, he does a
lot of a lot of strength. Everyone had a lot
of overall strengths, but his his sense of the joke
was extremely sharp, and certain episodes, you know, kind of
(27:56):
require that. Right. What about Mindy? You know Mindy, I
probably wouldn't have given her like an episode that had
like it was based on lots of twists and turns
and big plot things because she that was not her
interest and people would excel when they're following their interests,
you know. I mean she obviously she loved the romantic comedy,
(28:18):
but it wasn't just that she loved She wrote the Dundee's, right,
she wrote the Dundee's she wrote. I mean, she I
don't know where to begin. She was a ton of them. Yeah,
you know, when I think about Mindy wrote the Christmas
episode where you're sitting on Michael's lab, and I think
that goes to the kind of the heart of some
of the things that she did so amazingly, which was like,
(28:42):
just find something that's funny and really play it out.
And Greg loved that too, and that's one of the
reasons today were such a great team. Um. So, the
writer strike happens season four. Um do you remember anyways
specifically that the office was tied to that strike, and
(29:05):
you know, we were really having a moment in season four.
We were very well respected. There was a lot to lose,
and as it happened, the fact that Greg went out
with the writers and struck set a tone for all
the showrunners, you know, And it was because of them
(29:26):
and we could read it online and see what they
were saying. The fact that he kind of lad the
charge for shore runners to stick by the writers and
shut down the shows because technically he could have worked. Um,
I don't know that it's I mean, it was such
a weird, murky area, right. Um. You could make an
(29:50):
argument that he would have been on solid ground to
continue to produce the shows. And you could also make
an argument that you know, he had he had responsibility
too as a writer to to stop writing, because both
were possible. He had a choice to make, you know,
and a lot of show runners were very concerned about
their shows and they do the best. They had to
stockpile scripts, and I think, you know, the fact that
(30:12):
Greg was striking was a big part of Steve not
crossing the picket line, and that was what brought the
the office to stop. My bigest lesson from the strike was,
you know, I had taken notes from a lot of
(30:33):
directors as I was studying to be one. So we
were in the middle of dinner party we were about
to shoot it, and one director scattered it. It was
as as if like things were being presented to him
and he was figuring out how he was going to
shoot it, and and then we came back that event
that director was not available and Paul Fi. We got
(30:55):
Paul Fi to direct Dinner Party, and he came in
and did the exact same scatter out, but bent that place.
He came in with a vision and bent the place
to suit it. He was like, paint these walls and too,
you know. And it was then that I learned what
a scout was, how how I needed to approach a
(31:16):
scout as a director. I should fully imagine this space
working for me in every possible way I can and
say it. And I need to imagine it now in
the scout because three hours from now it's too late.
I didn't tell the people what to do. Amazing. Um,
how did you feel about when Greg decided to leave
(31:37):
and go develop parks and recreation? I know he was
never gone gone, but how did you feel? And when
did you find out that you and Jen we're going
to take the show over. Yeah? He and I just
kind of went on a walk on Satici and he
told me h and asked me if I wanted to
do jan I don't thought it was a big honor.
Did you say yes right away? Yeah, definitely right. I
(32:00):
thought it was pretty pretty amazing. Were you didn't scare you?
Definitely sure? No, of course. Um, so what how did
the writer's room change just pragmatically with with Greg and
Mike both leaving? Um, Jen and I worked together so well,
(32:23):
and we could we could kind of work together or
take turns, kind of covering for each other, and it
thinks got really late and we both liked each other's
writing so much that it just made it easy. Right.
I remember that it didn't feel to me as though
much had changed, because it wasn't like he was gone
(32:45):
gone right. It wasn't like goodbye Greg. Yeah, And I
think he really wanted to be the face of that too,
so he was. He would be on the cause of
the network. He would be at all the table reads
and the places where he would typically interact. He kept interacting.
He was definitely worried how people would view it. But
(33:09):
you know, at the same time, like Jen and I,
I loved Gregg's writing and it wasn't like you know,
and I've been on a lot of shows that you know,
when someone goes there, there could be the sad Finally
we get to do it all the way now, we're
really going to pick up this show. You know people
are gonna see the difference here. Um No, that wasn't
(33:30):
it at all. We loved Greg's writing, We had loved
what he did, and we just wanted to keep doing that,
even though he gave me authority. I wanted him to
like the show. You know, this was his show, and
after a table, if he didn't like it, I would
change it. I don't think I ever just said, well,
I like it, so we're doing it right. We would
(33:52):
always find the overlap of where we both like the show.
Do you feel like you have a different sensibility? Are
generally similar? We have a big overlap, but then we
also have Harry's what we don't overlap? What? What would
you say the biggest thing in the non overlap is
(34:13):
I don't know. It's not super clear to me, but
I know I used to definitely feel much more comfortable
going a lot darker than he would. That's exactly what
I was going to say, Yeah, I could go dark.
(34:46):
So when did you find out that Steve was not
going to come back. Did you feel confident that the
show could continue or were you not sure? I'm not sure.
I thought there was a lot of good reasons why
we could keep going ing, and you know, we had
done so much. I mean, he was seven seasons. I
just thought there wasn't a lot left so the show
(35:09):
could either find a new direction or it wouldn't work.
And we talked so much about what kind of new
directions it could be. But then ultimately I wanted to
keep going because we had a great cast. And that's
the decision not to bring in somebody else huge from
the outside and try to do a big gorilla, which
we had talked about two but we brought in James Spader,
(35:32):
we did, but he was part time and it revolved
and then we and then we did Katherine Tade for
a while in that job. I think we were we
were finding it. It was not easy in season eight
to figure out what the glue of the show was, right,
it had a strong core. Before it was there was
(35:56):
a guy who wanted more from this group than the
group could get, and almost everything came out of it right.
I had a discussion I think it was with Jenna.
I think it was her. If it wasn't her, we
can change this. But I had a discussion with somebody
who talked about one of their biggest disappointments or regrets
(36:18):
in the show was that it wasn't there wasn't enough
confidence given to the people that we had, feeling like
that we had to bring somebody else in. I think
what I said, which I can sympathize with the decision,
was that at that point, nobody who was there felt
like a boss. Yeah. And the other thing was we
(36:41):
were getting a lot of pressure from the network. So
the network, who had historically been behind us so much,
just changed hands, just changed hands to Comcast just as
Steve was leaving, and they wanted a big gorilla. They
wanted a big star to come in and take it over,
(37:02):
which we fought. How to say, like, they didn't even
know all the characters names at that point, they weren't
really following the show. I think we were just a
disappointing line item at the time. And then all of
TV was losing its ratings, all of TV, right, and
we didn't know how much of a hit we would
take with Steve going um, but we took a pretty
(37:26):
big one, and they wanted those numbers up. But at
the time, I mean, what we know now is that
was happening everywhere and people were starting everywhere happened with
if he had stayed right, Um, there was no way
to know, but that was behind a lot of the
pressure we were getting. I was kidding. Was there a
(37:50):
specific name that Comcast was wanting to take over? Um,
lots of names were floated, Julia, Louis Dreyfuss, James Candelfini,
someone we actually met with to explore it. But again,
that was going to be in the part time range
because I really did not want to put a new
(38:13):
person in the office in Michael's chair. I just thought like,
we're never going to get that right, and we should
just diffuse that thing and focus on everyone we had
interested what I was doing. And you know, even when
people came in, they weren't the focus. No, absolutely, I'm surprised.
(38:35):
I'm surprised. Yeah, Jenna's kinda I can't remember who it was,
but I'll tell you so you can get mad later.
I'm not mad, just really, really really hurt, you know. Um.
Any personal recollections from when Steve left, Oh yeah, it
was so well, we were all so tight, you know.
(38:58):
I remember like giving it like a little toast to
him and getting choked up after his last scene. Yeah,
I was gonna miss him a lot and did. Yeah,
we all did as a person, as a person, yeah,
and as the genius that he was. Yeah, but I
think it was you know, our experience of doing the
(39:20):
show was the people and the talent was you know,
there's a lot to do with the product. He was
a great guy who set a tone on you know,
I don't know that the first person to say this,
but he set this tone that it was really important
to treat people well and everyone was important. But he
was also just really fun to have her own. Yeah.
(39:41):
I think we all just were said to see him go. Yeah. Um.
So how much were you aware of what Greg's vision
for the entire series would be? Like it was I
remember hearing early on, so I know you did that
there was beginning, you know, the documentary crew comes, there
(40:04):
was a middle, and that Greg had a specific idea
for what the end would be. How early on were
you aware of that very you know, those ideas were
out really well, you know season once and two. You
these ideas, especially season one, and then and be like okay,
(40:24):
that's an idea for season eight, that's an idea for
you know that in our last season, you know, and
like breaking the fourth while on the documentary crew Um
and including that that was an idea that was early
Um that we just but we knew that was going
(40:45):
to be at the end put Away. Yeah right, we
knew it blew up the show, right, And was there
ever any talk of not doing that but being like
e Er or something where it would just keep going forever.
Was there ever any real talk of that just keep
show going forever? Yeah? Totally. Where did you fall on that?
(41:08):
I feel it was not possible to make this transition
idea to slowly bring people on and shift focus. Everyone
would have to really be on the same page for
to want that to happen, and not everybody wanted that
to happen, and Greg really wanted to finish the story,
and you can't finish the story with everybody gone, right,
(41:31):
I mean, you would not have had a satisfying ending
if after twenty if the show is still on now
and after another five ten years, we go, okay, well
now we're going to break the fourth wall. The the
kind of survivor element where we just if we are
just in season eighteen right now or whatever it would be,
(41:52):
this show wouldn't be as regarded as well as it is,
and Survivor would probably be regarded higher than it is
if it had ended after ten. Right, was there any
noticeable change in Gregg coming back full time for that
last season and your roles changing again? Well, I spent
(42:14):
that year mostly trying to get the spin off going,
writing that, casting that going, focusing on that development. So
I really wasn't a daily part of the writer's room
season nine, season nine, Yeah, yeah, there was a part
of me that was like that I had kind of
finished in a way, but you were still writing, right,
(42:35):
We're still acting in every episode and no, uh, you know,
aside from writing the Farm, that's the only episode I
wrote that year. Writing and directing the Farm I think
was the only time I directed that year too. How
disappointed were you that that that did not go forward?
Very disappoint and I think it would have been a
really big hit. Why did it not? Again, this is
(42:58):
the shift over to the the new management Comcasts. I mean,
I don't see how someone could not give the Farm
a chance, right, to not give the Dwight spin off
like a chance like maybe what if it does find itself?
You know? Interesting? So for you, it was really about
(43:20):
Comcast comes in and buys and doesn't have the seven
year history with the show is essentially coming in now
as Steve is gone, Ratings are going down and you're
finding yourself creatively, and so there hasn't been an investment
or a buy in exactly. Yeah. So really we needed
(43:43):
a Kevin Riley. Yeah, we needed a Kevin Riley to
be there at the time, to be at Comcast, someone
that saw what could happen. Yeah. Um, why do you
think that the show has become now the most watch
show in television five six years after we've shot anything?
(44:05):
Is that true? The most Yeah, fifty two something billion
minutes watched. That's a hundred thousand people watching it from
the moment they're born until they die, living an average lifes. Wow.
(44:27):
Are they doing that to some people? I think they should.
It's mean. I mean they wouldn't have a diverse life,
but potentially a happy life. Um. Do you feel that
the show in your interactions with people, that it's it's
bigger today than it was? Definitely? Definitely Yeah, and going younger. Yeah,
(44:50):
why do you think that is? Why is it connecting
with people maybe even more so now today? In a
way it was built for stream me I don't know,
there's the it's a very hard you know, there's a
phenomenon out there. It's very hard to explain. But um
streaming one you kind of pay attention, and a lot
of shows you're not given any permission to pay attention
(45:12):
because they're so forced down your throat. UM streaming is
lightly serialized, like the best of streaming is lightly serialized.
And we were, you know, with no knowledge of what
streaming was. That that was just how we thought the
show would be best. We told stories over years and
(45:35):
we we really like the mini arcs. I don't know,
as a viewer, if I'm watching something streaming and it's
it's too I have to wait too long for a conclusion,
I get really angry and I'm out. We found these
six arcs and thirteen arcs, you know that we did
a lot of three six you know, we had depending
(45:57):
on what it was. But like Michael Scott Paper Company,
you know, where he takes a journey over six episodes, right,
which is perfect for streaming. It's very satisfying to watch
six episodes in the beginning something, see the end of it,
and then you know, by the end of it, we're
back to We're back to where we were, even though
(46:18):
we're playing a giant dark with Michael Scott, you know
that takes seven years to go through about him becoming
kind of a whole person. So I think I think
we're built for this platform. We're built for today really well.
So in the last line of the show, Pam says
this line about there's beauty and ordinary things. It being
(46:41):
Greg's episode, who wrote it, I have to assume that
that's what he thought the show was about, that there
is beauty in ordinary things. What did you think it
was about? But yeah, I guess that I thought there was.
I was probably a little more focused on there's there's
comedy in ordan very things. I mean, and and I
(47:02):
know he felt both, but um, you know, the the
commedy that comes from very small, ordinary conflicts is my
favorite stuff. And uh, you know, when we hit that,
I think we were at our past. You know, right,
(47:24):
what are you most proud of? I mean, you led
almost half of the run. I'm most proud of what
we were as an aggregate. You know, it wasn't a
single moment that I'm more proud of than others. Although
I'm very proud of a talking head in which you
did not know the alphabet Lemno. Yeah, yeah, that's what
(47:46):
I mean. That's what I mean. That little glint, that
little glinting in your eye. I go, We'll here is
something I haven't I haven't ever revealed this before ever,
but I remember you saying to I mean, it was
just one of those moments about like we were getting
towards the end. We're up in your office and you
said to me, we need you because Steve is leaving,
(48:11):
only leaves us Dwight. We need someone to do the
really really dumb things. So sorry, we need somebody to
do the really really dumb things now that Michael was gone,
as Dwight is there, we need someone to do the
things that are bigger and or dumber than Dwight. No, okay,
(48:32):
thanks boss. Yeah yeah, um, but you This is sort
of a side note, but I'm most thankful for all
of the relationships that I made, and I'm thankful to
you that you trusted me and gave me an opportunity
(48:54):
to direct. It was a no brainer for me. Really,
I know you do an awesome job because I'm smarter
than everybody else. Yeah, I played dumb, but actually smart
know you you're a highly. You're highly trained actor, right,
You're very skilled and trained, and you knew a lot
about acting, and we were an actor's show, right, so
(49:18):
I thought that was a no brainer. You know, I
knew you would do it an amazing tob Well, thank you.
I look forward to the phone call to come direct
here your next show. Um, dude, I appreciate you so
much coming in. It's so fun to talk about this.
I was with Steve yesterday and some way we just
(49:40):
started talking about Michael Scott for so long on the
office days. It's fun to do. I didn't want it
for a long time. It's like, come on, put this
show to bed, um, But it feels good now I
can talk about it. Yeah. Well, I think that you
(50:00):
and I hope this doesn't sound weird. I feel like
you're the unsung hero of the show that you don't
get the credit that you deserve for your vision and
innovation that happened during the time that you were there.
So I want you to know that I appreciate you. Yeah,
no one said that. I do think you're an idiot.
(50:24):
Well yeah, it takes away some of the good feelings. Okay, Um,
but thank you for coming in. Thanks for having me here.
Oh good, there you have it. That is Paul Lieberstein.
(50:50):
Thank you Paul for sitting down with me. You know
how much I love you. And I don't know is
it too late to start to petition to revamp the farm.
I'll ask Rain if he's free. Uh. In any case,
thank you all for listening. I absolutely love sharing these
interviews with you, so I hope you're loving them. To
(51:12):
have a great week, everybody. The office. Deep Dive is
hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our
executive producer, Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,
(51:33):
our producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is
Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore.
Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great
friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth
Olansky
Host
Brian Baumgartner
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