March 4, 2026 • 48 mins
If you're a close listener of Off the Cupp, you will have picked up on one of the themes running through a lot of S.E.'s conversations — midlife. S.E. has talked with guests from Wings' Steven Weber to comedian Sherri Shepherd, to The West Wing's Janel Maloney about this moment in life where you start to take stock of your life and career, often fighting or leaning into this feeling of upheaval. But why is this period so tumultuous and how can we make it work for us? On this episode of Off the Cupp, S.E. dives into these questions with someone exploring them and this topic deeply. Author and journalist Stacey Lindsay shares the insights she learned writing her forthcoming book, Being 40: The Decade of Letting Go — and Embracing Who We Are (pre-order now). There's lots to learn about the emotional, physical, and sometimes existential tenor of this decade — whether you’re past it, in it, or looking down the 40s pipeline.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
We don't want to have to step out the door
every day and just justify our choices and our non choices,
you know, but just justify our life. No one should
have to do that.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to Off the Cup, my personal anti anxiety antidote.
This podcast has been so great, so fun.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
We're not ending. I'm looking back, okay.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Because I've loved talking to, you know, the actors and
the artists and the writers and the musicians about their
career arcs and their trials and their successes and their heartbreaks.
I've loved talking to Josh Gadd and Huey Lewis and
Sally Jesse Raphael and Charloia Mane the God and Jim's
v Vanderbeek and so many other people. They've lived incredible
(00:44):
lives and the journalist in me loves exploring that.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
But really, at.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Its core, Off the Cup began and has remained a
kind of mental health podcast. We may not address mental
health health directly every episode, but I have intentionally created
a space because it was important to me where a
conversation about mental health could come up naturally.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Because again that was important to me.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I wanted to create that space because, as you know,
I've struggled with my own mental health, my journey and
struggle with anxiety.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
It's why this pot exists.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
And it's been just as helpful to me as I
hope it's been to others to hear people giving language
to our battles. Whether it's me talking about it, or
Mark Duplas or Brie Nestin Green or Jenny Garth.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
What I always say is when you talk.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
About mental health, it makes it easier to talk about
mental health, and that is so so crucial. That's the
ethos of this podcast. So the celebs are fun, we
love that. But all of that is to say that
this week's guest is truly an extension of this ethos,
where we're making it okay to talk about things that
(02:00):
people might be uncomfortable talking about or.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Don't know how to talk about. And I'm really really.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Excited about it because this person's talking about things we've
talked about here too, things that I've shared with you
that can feel scary or maybe even too intimate. But
not today, not today. We're going there today. Stacy Lindsay
has worked as a journalist and editor for years. She's
interviewed so many fascinating people. Fascinating women, especially like Lisa
(02:28):
Ling and Julianne Anderson and Aaron Brockovich and Savannah Guthrie
and Elan Hildebrand and Anna Quinlinn. I mean, it goes
on and on, and she's got a new book coming
out in May called Being Forty, The Decade of Letting
Go and Embracing who we are.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I love this topic. I'm in my forties, just at.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
A birthday yesterday in fact, and so much changed for
me in this decade. There was so much up evil,
so much self doubt, so much that was disorienting and knew,
and boy was it scary at times. So let's get
into it. Stacey Lindsay, welcome to Off the Cup.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I cannot wait to get into it with you.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Essie.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Thank you for having me. I am so excited and
I'm just so grateful too. And happy happy birthday. I
hope you're celebrating we're all celebrating you. I hope you're
celebrating you for the next month.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Oh wow, that's that feels indulgent, But thank you, and
I'm really I'm really glad you're here, because, as you know,
this is a very timely topic and there's sort of
been a like a boomlet of discussion. I think a
welcome boomlet around specifically around perimenopause, just for one example,
because that's that's not the whole focus of the book,
(03:39):
but it's something that you talk about a lot, with
people like Halle Berry and Naomi Watts really trying to
use their massive platforms to talk about some of the
things that women have to go through at this age.
It's like we're calming out of the closet or the kitchen,
whatever metaphor you want to use to talk about the
uncomfortable topic of age.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Why is it so hard for us to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I'm still figuring that out myself, it is, but I
know that when we do talk about it, and when
we lean in and we sort of broach the subject,
the floodgates open. But what's fascinating too, just to touch
on perimenopause and we'll talk about all of it purely menopause.
I didn't even know what it was until I started
writing this book a few years ago, and it still
confused me. And I'm so glad we're getting this information
(04:23):
and we're getting this awareness around it. But I'm thinking
it's this long. It differs for every woman too, but
it's this long, sort of nebulous time of things are changing,
things are getting tough, things are getting kind of cool
too in a lot of ways. It's not all doom
and gloom, but what is it? And that's the fun
thing about this conversation too, is we're starting to actually
get some clarity on these terms that we've kind of heard.
(04:44):
Yeah again, I was just learning in real time as
I was writing this book.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Well, that is the wild part of this. I was
thinking about this. I think about this a lot. But
you know, a couple of years ago, I was on
the phone with one of my girlfriends, she's one of
the girlfriends I have since I'm like sixteen. She brought
up some kind of change she was going through and
I was like, oh my god, me too.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
She's like, well, it's perimenopause. I'm like, shut the shut
the front door.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And it's like, why do I have to like have
a conversation with a girlfriend to figure stuff out that's
going on with my body? Why did I learn about
the cotton gin in school? But not like the biological
changes that half the planet is going to go through
at a certain time.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
It's so crazy to me.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
And some of the doctors I interviewed for my book,
they'll say they didn't learn about it in mid school.
Come on, they're just learning about it.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Come on.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
So women have been looked at as these vessels for procreation, right,
We've been looked at to have a certain role in society,
and one of those roles was to make babies, you know,
to marry into a family fill in the blank. And
so we're just kind of starting to come up for
air and we're just starting to learn about this, and
that's why there's this incredible swell of these amazing doctors
out there talking about all of this. It's new for
(05:58):
them too. I mean, they've known about it, but again,
they were in med school. They weren't taught about this.
They were taught about men's bodies. They were taught about
in clinical trials too. Wasn't until the early nineties that
it was mandated that women were included in clinical trials,
so that we have when it comes about to our wellness,
our health, the default has been how does it impact
a man? And then we're kind of second, it's wild, and.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
We're fury different. We don't even have the same stuff
that makes no sense.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Every single way we're different too.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
That blows my mind.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
But actually that's reassuring, like I haven't just been missing
no or ignoring this, Like it really hasn't just been
a thing until recently.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
And one of the reasons why I was so interested
in this is because I didn't have the vocabulary for
a lot of the stuff that I was experiencing. And
I'm curious of you. I'm imagining you experienced that as well. Yeah,
something I knew was different. And when I'm saying this
was kind of late thirties. Then when I entered the
decade of my forties, I thought, okay, and I'm not
talking about the Oh my god, I'm turning forty. I
(07:01):
had some angst around it. It's different for all of us,
but honestly, it was just another day. I didn't have
a big party. It was just another day. But it
was when I was in my forties, even just a
few months in, I started really looking at this and
I thought, something is feeling different. My body feels different.
Something about my mind where I'm allocating my energy feels different.
That's shifting too so much, and I wanted to look
(07:23):
at this, but it was a lack of vocabulary, and
I was hearing the term midlife, but I was like, Okay,
I want something more specific. What is it about the
decade of our forties? So there's something right now that
is different and I wanted to really unpack that.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Well, I'm glad you did too, And I completely understand
that impetus. When I was in the middle of my
sort of nervous breakdown and dealing with my anxiety struggle,
I didn't have language to describe what was happening to me.
I could get there with a therapist who knew the
questions to ask, and you know, we got there. But
I feel like anxiety is very misunderstood in the way
(07:59):
that this time of a woman's life is misunderstood, and
we just don't have a way to talk about it,
which is also why I, you know, started working on
a book about it, to give it that language, so
that like we could, we could have common stories to
share and light bulbs that go off and aha moments.
You can't do that if you're all kind of talking
(08:21):
in the shadows or just like with a girlfriend on
the phone.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Right and when we're talking about anxiety specifically too, And
I love that you share about this se because there's
still this shame in stigma around Yeah, yep, I've experienced
it myself. I feel anxious still day to day. I
have to work on it, but I have gone through
major dark times and I talk about a lot of
it in the book. But there's a link there too,
specifically for when we're in our forties as well, that
(08:46):
correlates to the chemical changes in our bodies, the fluctuations
of her hormones. That's going to exacerbate a lot of
the stuff that we're feeling as well.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So it's just like accumulation.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
It's a perfect storm of sense.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
It's a perfect yeah, freaking storm.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
First, you know, I wanted to know a little bit
more about you and your journey to Hear and why
you're writing this book.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
So tell me a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I always like to ask what kind of kid were you?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
You know, I was kind of to use kind of
cliche terms, but I was super super curious. I think
for our line of work to you kind of know
early on you're asking questions, and that's what I was doing.
I was doing the school newspaper, and then in college
I was thinking okay, something just I didn't really ever
fit in that, I didn't really go with the status
(09:40):
quo all of those things. But yeah, So I grew
up south of Boston and went to undergrad in Boston
at BU and then I transferred to Emerson actually got
my undergrad degree in film, which was a change because
I always wanted to be a journalist and then I
had I mean, I had a great career working in
film for a short while. I moved to New York
for mac only A Pictures, but it was still this
(10:01):
really tiny company. And then I got this incredible opportunity.
I see. It's so funny because it still it literally
fell in my lap where the late James Kahn was
looking for an assistant. So James conn for people who
are listening the Godfather and you know, one of the
great Yeah, so I moved to LA It worked for
him for several years, and he was I'm one of
the lucky ones too, because he was one of the
great ones. He became a dad. He was so deeply respectful.
(10:24):
He taught me so much about life, and I got
to travel the world with him. But I was still
asking all these questions I wanted to be a journalist,
and as this happens, sometimes you have a moment of
clarity when like something drastic happens in your life. My
father died really suddenly, and it was honestly. I went
back to Massachusetts. I was sitting next to him as
(10:44):
he was dying. He was in a coma in the hospital,
and I thought, I got to go back to school
for journalism. I want to do this, so kind of
shortening this long story. But then went back to grad
school study journalism and then hit the ground running from there.
I was a local reporter. And yeah, rest is kind
of history.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
You know, the journalism bug is. It's interesting because if
you have it, you don't you don't you don't get.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Rid of it.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
You ideally you find a way to use it right,
to do it, either as a journalist or in some
way asking the questions, following the stories in some kind
of capacity. But you don't get to totally ignore it.
It's relentless, it is. I mean, I you know, I
when I got bitten by it in college, there was
nothing else I was going to do nothing.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
I was asked to do reality shows.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I was asked to do all kinds of things that
I'm sure would have been fun. But it's all I
wanted to do, and it's still all I know how
to do and all I want to do with life,
which we'll get to because when you get to your forties,
sometimes for women, you get to like a career crossroads
and you start asking yourself, am I happy in this
thing that had always made me happy? And suddenly isn't
(11:55):
making me as happy anymore? Or isn't as fulfilling anymore?
So we're gonna get that. But but I just I
just want to stick with you for a minute. So
how do you decide I'm.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Going to write this book.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I'm going to write a book about this thing that's
more important than all.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
The other things I could write about.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Because you've interviewed some incredible people, You've done some incredible work.
There are issues I know that you're very passionate about
and that you've explored as a journalist really deeply.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Why this topic.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
I have to give the credit to fellow journalist Maria Shriver,
who I grew up idolizing, of course, and I've learned
so much from her. And I'm a contributed senior contributor
editor to The Sunday Paper, which she produces that she founded.
It was a conversation with her really because I started
really digging into kind of a created another sort of
(12:45):
beat for myself, which was this kind of pro aging landscape.
I started becoming really interested in it. Always been interested
in topics that impact women and people who identify as women,
but there was something specific about aging that maybe it
was the time of my life I was going through,
but these people that were starting to really kind of
push back on these societal narratives, and I thought, ah,
(13:06):
I like that talking to people like a Norma Kamali
who well into it at seventies is saying I feel
better and look better and love life more than I
ever have before. Okay, what are you doing? I want
to learn more about right. So it was that in
general that started really really interesting me and I just
started kind of peeling the back the layers of that.
But then at the same time, my own life experience,
(13:27):
I entered this decade and as we as we talked
about I was like, Okay, something's going on here, something
is different, and again I don't have the words for it,
what is it? And I find that the forties, I
think are a massive intersection for various reasons. For one reason,
our bodies are changing, as we talked about and hopefully
we can talk about more. Society always has something to
(13:48):
say about forty two. It is that weird, sticky point
age where you could argue, Okay, maybe the thirties is too,
in its own way the twenties, but there's something about
forty because those damn headlines. I go, oh, so and
so on how she looks so good at forty five
on getting married after forty Oh my gosh, you're forty.
You look so good. What is it about this decade?
Speaker 4 (14:10):
So?
Speaker 1 (14:10):
What was that? Also coming into the picture is life
gets harder. It just does the forties. This is a time,
if God willing, we still have our guardians or parents.
They're getting older. That is massively on our minds. If
we have children, that is obviously massively on our minds.
I don't have children, but everyone in my life does.
I've God children, And it's just a reality of life. Mortgages, rent,
(14:35):
you know, the world we live in. Yeah, especially right
now too. I mean this disloyalty to the constitution, just
to name one thing. So there's this like intersection of
all these things. And then though there's this really cool
thing that happens that I think we lean into what
really matters. I think we do start as women, whether
(14:55):
we realize it or not. I think we start reallocating
our energy toward what we really want to. We start
shifting our minds to the things that we always wanted
to put our minds toward. We start we really know
ourselves too.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
And so that confluence of things, I thought, I want
to know about this more. And then what really led
me to this book. I started asking women about it.
And I use the term floodgates. They just opened every
time I asked a woman about something related to the forties,
growing older, beauty ideals, Oh my gosh. Yeah, we couldn't
stop talking about it. And so that led to this
(15:31):
book ultimately, and the forties are in anchor for the book.
But at the same time, I really think this book
is just about being a woman today.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Yeah, right, and.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Everything we face.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah no, I get that sense as well. So I
just turned forty seven. I remember when I was approaching
my forties. I wasn't scared of getting old. I was
scared of getting irrelevant. And that's partly my bit the business.
I'm in my business has a way of sort of
sutt lyast sidelining women in their forties, And I've watched
it over and over and over again. You know, a
(16:05):
colleague of mine, a star journalist, or you know, she's
got a hit news show, and suddenly they're no longer
getting the plumb assignment, or they're no longer on the
big night, their show's taken away, and eventually they're just
kind of nowhere. And obviously that doesn't happen to everyone,
but I feel like a woman in her forties in
this business starts asking am I done?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Here? Is this business done with me?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
And that's existentially very disorienting and alarming. And I imagine
that's not just the case in my business, right is
there something about being forty in whatever career you're in
where you start wondering am I going to be left
behind here? Or sort of the converse, do I want
to get out of this?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I think that's a shared feeling between all of us.
I really do, And of course we can only talk
about our own lived experience, but from the women I
interviewed for this book and for the women who aren't
in the book, where just anecdotally can kind of call
from their stories. Yes, I think it is the beginning
of the book. I talk about Janis Adams, who's this
prolific historian and journalist. She calls it a push out year.
(17:12):
She's seen it, and she's older than us, and she's
seen it for decades. That forty is for whatever reason,
but it is again that year that industries are tough
on women. They start getting pushed out. And I want
to think it's changing, but it's still a reality. So
I think it no matter what industry. But if you're
in an industry where your currency, so much of it too,
(17:33):
is how you present to the world, you know, your looks,
your beauty, whatever you want to call it. That's you know,
that's even a bigger.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
It's another layer on top of it. It's another layer.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
It just is it's so tough. And then also I
think we start really paying attention to what's lighting us
up and what's not lighting us up anymore. To you,
that and career is such a fascinating conversation to have
because we do all the right things we can really do.
If we're lucky, we can follow our passions. You've done that,
(18:05):
I've done that, and still at the same time, we
can change our hearts, can change, our minds can change.
We can start to kind of feel as creative fire
too that maybe we want to put our creativity toward
other things that does or does not bring us money.
So work is a really interesting way to kind of
as a microcosm of so many other things that are
going on for a woman, and it can particularly for
(18:26):
this time.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Well, and let's dig in a little bit.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And I know not everyone listening is a woman who works.
That's fine, We're going to get to the other things too.
But we do talk a lot about career arcs on
this podcast. And I thought, I thought, coming into my forties,
I believed very sincerely that my work, my job was
the thing that get like defined me the most, even
more than motherhood, which is more important to me. But
(18:52):
I felt it defined me less. And I feel like
you were getting at this. We get into our forties
and we start thinking about our priorities. Yes, we start
thinking about our value and self worth and what is
it really attached to. Is it attached to our kids,
is it attached to our jobs, Is it attached to
our family, our husband, our partner. That seems to be
(19:14):
kind of an existential question we start asking ourselves in
our forties, and asking it can be really scary, really.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Scary, yeah, of course, because we feel like, are we
pulling out the threads of kind of this quilt that
we've been working so hard.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
To a and of everything we've known about ourselves, everything
we've known about ourselves.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
And again, this should talk about a should work is
a should You should do this in this way by
this time, you should accomplish these things according to this
totally made up, totally fabricated, arbitrary calendar. But still, even
though it's completely constructed by this larger system, it's there
and we pay attention to it. So when we start
kind of thinking about, oh wow, when we start looking
(19:56):
around for a second and wondering how I'm spend my time,
how im spending my energy?
Speaker 4 (20:02):
Too?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
We talk so much about time is finite, but energy
is finite. And I don't know about you, but energy
is much more finite for me these days. Oh for sure,
I like a good nine o'clock you know, bedtime too,
but it's all I'm.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Eight o'clock, nine o'clock.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
That's lovely. Oh my gosh, it's great, But it's it's
totally what's the word, It's kind of an unraveling a
little bit, and also quite beautiful, not to be Pollyanna
about it. I mean the beauty is when we really
look at this and think, Okay, what do I really
hold so tightly that I think is always going to
(20:37):
be there for me my career when necessarily it's not.
What is going to be there for me? You know?
And what do I really want to work for? My health,
my worse, my family, my friends, the feeling I have
when I'm with myself alone to.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yes, and who am I without that? Totally, it's a
very scary but important question.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yes, I think the journey that we're on in our
forties is how does my interiority match my extrateriority? You know,
how does my inside kind of align with how I'm presenting?
And work can bring up a lot of that, and
for me, for so long in work too, I was hustling,
I was putting on the smile again. I liked, I
(21:20):
have liked, and I continue to like what I'm doing,
But a lot of times too, it was quite abusive.
I was not getting paid well, I was working myself
to the bone, and I know you have done that
as well. At the end of the day, I was
going to bed quite lonely, exhausted, depleted, and I'm thinking, Okay,
my career that I have quote unquote built is not
giving me back what it should be. It's taking so
(21:41):
much more that I'm giving it. And that's not sustainable,
that's not tenable. And it's also really critical no matter
what line of work we're in, is it taking more
from us than we're giving to it? And that's the
question to really.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Have it is And those are the questions that don't
come up in your twenties and thirties. You know, I
worked very hard in my twenties and thirties and made
a lot of sacrifices. I you know, was juggling a
full time job, a book tour, grad school speeches, travel,
all the things, and I really I burned myself out.
(22:15):
But I thought, well, I'll do it now so that
when I have a family, or when I'm in my forties,
I can take a step back. And I mean I
could do that a little around motherhood, to like settle
into motherhood, but that didn't last. And now, actually, I
think because of so much change in my business and
(22:35):
in politics. Like I'm working as hard now as I
did in my twenties. I'm not thrilled about it, Stacy,
I'm not. I wouldn't choose this, okay, but this is
just where I have to be. And I'm not the
same person I was in my twenties and thirties. My
body's changed, my energy level is different, what I want
is different. So it's really tough to work like I'm
(22:59):
in my twenties while I'm in my forties.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, it's really tough. It's really tough. And I see
you and I see what you're doing, and I know
that's a fraction of what you are ultimately doing too
in your professional in your personal life. But I think
that's part of it though. When you really do care
and then you're doing you're doing something that also people
want you to show up too. When you have a
public based role too, people are expecting you, they want
(23:22):
to see you. You're feeding them. That's that's huge.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
It's a lot.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
And I know you talk a lot about empathy and
you're an EmPATH. I am too, and that is definitely
that definitely makes this job harder. You know, there's so
many times I look at colleagues who are just like.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
I don't care. I'm just I'm just here to do
the job.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
And then i go home and live my life, and
I'm so jealous, so jealous.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
So jealous.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
But I've really had to teach myself through like you know,
my my work on my mental health, to separate what
I'm covering from you know, what I'm living and what's
important inside my home and my family. But that's a
really hard thing, Like to peel those two things apart
is really hard because a I feel attached to the
(24:07):
things that are happening in the world. Be it feels
very like almost too privileged to remove yourself, like, well,
some people don't get to do that, why do I?
And through that third thing you said, people are expecting
me to talk about, you know, all this stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
And.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Sometimes I don't want to. Sometimes I can't. Sometimes I
don't have the words for it. Sometimes it's overwhelming. And
so in my forties is when I started when I
stopped just compartmentalizing everything and pushing through and saying I'll
deal with that later.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
I'll deal with that later. Because my body turned on me.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
My body shut down, and I had a nervous breakdown
and I, you know, my body was basically like, you
can't keep.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Doing this on repeat.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
You're overdosing on anxiety and you've really got to deal
with it. And I just imagine that's harder to do
in your forties than it would be in your twenties
and thirties if you were really keeping a better eye
on your mental health.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Absolutely, and you can't ignore your body. You just can't,
you know, and especially to this is the time when
we absolutely have to double down on taking care of ourselves.
However that looks, and however we're able to do that,
but we have to double down on it. But how
can we make the shifts there? How can we really
start talking about this in a way where it's not
(25:25):
these kind of macro terms of oh, you know, take
better care of yourself, step away, just I mean, that's
again all great, but how can we really start sharing practice, yeah,
you know, practical ways that we can be there for
each other, but ultimately for ourselves to start really caring
for ourselves, to start really listening too to that kind
of discomfort we're feeling and the confusion in our careers.
(25:46):
We're not going to find the answer tomorrow, but we
can start doing small things I think, to again genuinely
care for ourselves. It can be the smallest thing I see,
like I have such a guardrail up on emails. Well,
I really do tell people can't do it in their jobs,
but it's like I after six, I don't. I don't
unless there's a small window. And again, I'm in a
(26:08):
position right now that I can do that, right, So
it's different for everybody. I want to know. I used
to work the night shift as an anchor. I couldn't
do that and was working until midnight. But that shift
and I really honor it too. And I don't open
my email until after seven in the morning. I mean
I used to just kind of reach for my phone
and instantly look at everything that's going on. And I
noticed that actually was really really impacting my nervous system.
(26:31):
But it can be a small thing like that that
not saying okay, go quit your job. But there are
shifts that we can do, I think to allow us
a little bit more space to just be more compassionate too, Yeah,
be more a compassionate to ourselves. That again, things are changing,
as you said, it's just different. We're working differently than
as we did when we were in our twenties and thirties.
It's just different.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
And I think we also start feeling permission to ask
for things, and like things I definitely wouldn't have asked
for in my thirties and twenties, both at work and
at home. Right, Like whether you're setting boundaries or you're
just trying.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
To make your life a little easier.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
I think that's sort of the upside of getting older,
is at least for me, I'll just speak for me.
I started sort of questioning the things I wasn't supposed
to do, the asks I wasn't supposed to make, and like, well,
why why can't I make that ask? What's going to
(27:33):
happen if I make this ask at work or at
home to make life easier for me?
Speaker 3 (27:39):
What's going to happen if I do that.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
There's something that happens in your forties that you're like,
maybe it's you just have like fewer f's to give.
I don't know, but you just start self advocating in
a way that you know, I wish you could you
could start doing in your twenties and thirties, But it's
almost not even like it would be counterproductive to do
it in your twenties and thirties because you have a
arrived at the place where you're justified yet in making
(28:03):
those those you know.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Asks right, and again, it's I think it's because we
know ourselves so much better at this time, right, We're
really rapidly getting to know ourselves every year or two.
And it's just the default too. That's that's where the
systemic storytelling comes into play too. It is the default,
I think, and I think this is very gendered. I
think for women especially. You know what I've observed in
(28:27):
my work and my interviews. We're taught to go with
the status quo. We're taught to grin and bear it.
You know, we even totally our mothers and our aunts
and our grandmothers when it comes to going through menopause.
Oh you know what, what was that? You just grin
and bear it.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
We're taught that.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
So it is really cool that we start asking for things.
There's this awareness, it's like swell of awareness, and we
start realizing again too, oh my gosh, what's going to
happen if I ask for that thing, If I advocate
for myself, if I advocate for my time and my family.
Oh I'll get it. That's what's going to happen. I
get it right, right. The world's not going to fall apart, No, paid,
(29:05):
the patriarchy wants us to think that that's the case.
You know, don't ruffle any feathers you're.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeah, because you think, like, what are they going to
think of me?
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Right? Right?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
There's this discussion there's a lot of discussion right now online.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
I don't know how online you are, but about women
in their forties.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
So our generation, which is like Gen X and millennials
cusp that we look better than a lot.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Of girls in their twenties. Have you seen that?
Speaker 4 (29:46):
No?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Yeah, Yeah, there's this thing on.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Like TikTok where like people are saying maybe it's because
young girls are having work done earlier and or whatever
or growing up in the age of social media whatever
it is. Pople are saying that women in their forties today,
so millennials and Gen X look better than younger generations
(30:09):
do before us.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Wow, Yeah, that's wild. I wonder what that is. I
wonder what better means.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
To I know, I know it is conjected, but like
more natural, Yeah, which I can see too, because again,
like growing up in the age of social media, which
we didn't.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Luckily, we weren't as performative.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
And yes we had seventeen magazine and supermodels, but we
weren't expected to compete with them in photographs.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Our photographs went into a photo album that lived under
our bed or in our hope jest.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Right, we weren't living a life.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Where we were taking pictures trying to compete with all
the famous people and then posting them for everyone to judge. Like,
I can't imagine growing up like this. I'm wondering what
you think girls in their twenties today will be like
in their forties in twenty years from now.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
What concerns me the most in this entire conversation, but
specifically when it comes to this, is critical thinking. I
think about that. I think about our critical thinking right
now is so suppressed. But particularly I think for a
lot of one young women, particularly when it comes to
what they're going to wear, what they're going to look like,
their makeup, all of that. So going back to seventy Magazine,
(31:24):
all those magazines, we would get that if we're lucky
once a month and it was exciting, and we would
read it. We would open up, but I would pull
out pages. I would dog your pages, all of that,
but it was contained right, It was darling, and we
put it on the coffee table and then went and
lived our lives and went and got dirty or went
and talked about lip gloss or whatever. You know, as
we got older with their girlfriends, every single thing that
we do, and for all of us, no matter our age,
(31:44):
but decisions are sort of made for us all the time.
You have to wear jeans that look like this right now,
you have to contour your face a certain way. You
have to stop your eyes from crinkling after you know
this age or whatever it is. But it concerns me too.
I am so pro a woman doing what she wants.
(32:05):
I could be more pro with your body, with your makeup,
with your look, with your sexuality, with your dating, whatever
it is. But I am not pro us always satisfying
these narratives, and the narratives are just totally surrounding other
younger women in ways I don't think they really realize.
And I think it's really cool and important that older
(32:26):
generations are talking about it. So maybe they're starting to
see because they're brilliant too. Younger women are brilliant and
smart and motivated. I think they're going to change the
world all of that, But when it comes to particularly beauty,
it does concern me a little because how do you
know what you really like too? How do you know
what you really want to wear? How do you know
there's no more going to limited to or yeah forever
twenty one or whatever, and kind of splurging on a
(32:48):
couple of tops and thinking, oh, I think I look
good in this color. No, it's this is the color
that we're supposed to wear. This is what the influencers
are doing. So critical thinking is something I want us to,
like start Critical Thinking book club or something.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
There's also a big discussion online now around having kids
or not having kids, and I really hate this conversation because,
like everything else, that's becoming us versus them, like a
political statement pitting women against each other. I'm also pro
do what you want, but you know, whichever side of
it you're on, and I hate.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
That there are sides, but there are you know, there's
sort of superiority.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Complex that I have kids and so should you, or
I'm not having kids and why are why are you?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
And I'm sort of doing the on the better path.
I just hate that. And why do we as women.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Either create those binary conflicts with each other or allow
them to be created and then we fulfill them, right, Like,
I just watch this happen over the past few years
around kids, and I just hate the conversation because it's
I hate that there are a great conversations to have
around whether or not to have children, but it's not
the ones I'm seeing most most often.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
And I hate it too because it is so binaried.
And I think most things that are binary just miss
all the nuance of being alive and being a person.
So I mean, you just can't unless you're talking literally
about if you're going to have chocolate ice cream or
ventilazed bright right, that's a binary decision, but at nothing
when it comes to the complexity of just being alive.
Nothing is h for something that is so intimate and
(34:28):
just so deeply personal but also cultural about motherhood in general,
it is so so so disheartening. And the other thing is,
I do think it's larger forces at play and that
when we sort of reinforce it, because yes, we know
that women can be quite mean to other women unfortunately,
but when you look at the bigger picture, it's induced
by fear, it's induced by these systemic stories. It's something
(34:51):
larger than us that's perpetuating this. I'm not justifying anybody's
bad behavior. I really think we need to just give
each other a break, be more compassionate online and offline,
of course. But one of the beautiful conversations I had
with a woman in the book named Sarah, and she
talked about she is a mother, she has a daughter,
and she said, I have a lot of friends who
don't have kids, and they're kind of wrestling with this.
(35:13):
But there is hardship with either situation. There just is, Yeah,
so why can't we talk more about that also too?
I chose not to have kids, see, and I still
have a ton of grief around it. Not regret, but
I have a lot of grief around it. And I
can't just answer, you know, when people have asked me,
you gotta have kids? Do you want kids? Why don't
(35:34):
you have kids? It's not a neat easy answer. It's
just not. It's multifaceted, it is messy, It is confusing
still for me. There's grief, there's loss, there's relief in
it too, and I just again, I think that's a
microcosm of life, and so it really saddens me that
(35:55):
there's this binary and it really fills me with hope
that you're bringing it up right now, because that's what
we need to do.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Well.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Unfortunately, it's you know, it's in the world that I cover, right,
it's become politicized, and you know, you've got the sort
of trad wife movement on the far right, you know
that has sort of this moral imperative to have children,
and you're a bad person if you don't.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
And why aren't you populating the planet?
Speaker 2 (36:21):
I mean, I won't say that's crazy, but like, that's
certainly not something I would ever inflict on a group
of people, Like you must be like this or you're
somehow less than But I also like, I am a mom.
It's the thing I'm the most proud of.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
I love.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I can't imagine my life not being a mom. You
can't imagine your life with children because you don't have
them yet. We should be having more conversations with each
other so you understand me and I understand you, rather
than pitting us against each other where we don't talk,
we just udge each other. That's the worst thing we
(37:02):
could possibly do in a situation around an issue that
is incredibly intimate, incredibly personal.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
It's beautiful. Both choices are beautiful.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Both choices bring unwanted issues and anxieties.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
But like, we're just humans.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Can't we just talk about being human and the human
experience and condition without saying you need to be more
like this?
Speaker 3 (37:24):
It's crazy to me.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
And I think again it's fear based. I really really
do too, because I can get really angry sometimes, and
I have been at the brunt of massive judgment and
unfortunately from some women, not as much but from some women,
but to society, a search to not as much now
that I'm moving deeper into my forties, you know, but
I used to get the questions all the time when
(37:45):
you get to have kids, you don't have kids? What's
going on? All of that constantly then? And I wasn't
married for I did and get married until I was
forty three? What was wrong with me?
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Then? Like?
Speaker 3 (37:57):
What do you do?
Speaker 4 (37:58):
Right?
Speaker 1 (37:59):
It's but it's so much of it I think is fear.
I do and I think when I have felt that
anger or that oh, I just want to defend myself.
I don't want to prove myself. I don't want to
feel like I'm always in the game of proving myself.
We're justifying my life. That's the thing too. Something at
step out the door every day and just justify our
(38:20):
choices and are non choices, you know, but just justify
our life. No one should have to do that. But
I look at it as again, that's something that is manufactured,
that's bigger than us, and it really impacts us differently.
And for the people I think that kind of choose
sides and judge, I think it's probably pushed on their
hearts a little bit more. Maybe it's made their life
a little bit harder, maybe it's just but again it's
(38:40):
induced more fear in them. And so I try try.
I'm not always successful. Yeah, to have compassion and think, okay,
what's going on in your life that you feel that
you need to judge me, or to feel that you're
superior because you're walking this path and I'm walking this path.
There's no one path.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
For a life. No, no, of course not no, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
I don't have a neon sign, but I think if
I ever were to have one, I would probably say
something like that, there's a little bit paths I.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
Love that I have a neon sign.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
What is it? Say it?
Speaker 3 (39:16):
It was a gift from my husband. I love it.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
That's a good gift.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
It's a good it's a good sam all right, Well,
this was a great conversation. I want to thank you
for coming on off the cup. We like to end
with a lightning round. It's meant to be fun. If
you're game, I'm game.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
What's your favorite movie?
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Oh, my gosh, singles. I want to singles?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Yes, through such a generational poll.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I love it. It is Cameron Crow. Yeah, you got
Pearl jam, you got Chris Cornell, you got all of it.
You got Seattle Singles.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Oh totally.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
I haven't thought about that movie in a really long time.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
That's a great one. Uh okay, what's the perfect date
night for you and her husband?
Speaker 1 (40:01):
I love live music and I don't have enough of
it in my life, So if we can get some
live music in, ideally on the early side. I think
you were talking about this with Heather Dubrow recently too,
like can we have an early concert? Right? You were so,
I can't really do the nine pm concerts anymore. Maybe
there's a one off in the summertime, But so I
think that's probably why it's hard to find live music.
(40:23):
It is because I want it on the earlier side.
But I love to go out live jazz dinner, Yeah,
night by nine.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Yep, that's like girl, but yeah, sure, yep with you too. Okay,
what was your worst vacation?
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Oh gosh, I mean, you know, I'm probably I know
I'm not alone in saying this. It was a trip
I took with a guy that I should not have
gone on a trip with this guy. And the funny
thing is, too, I have a dear friend from high school.
He is still to this day one of my dearests.
He's a guy he's always been there for me. We've
always had this amazing platonic relationship. He came and rescued
me in Chicago. He drove from Boston out to Chicago
(41:04):
to sort of intercept and he came up with some
excuse too. So basically, the trip with this guy turned
into kind of a threesome of all of us, and
he took some of the pressure off. It was pretty great.
It makes for a great story.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
We I interviewed the late James Vanderbeek and he told
a similar story of going on a vacation with a
girl who wasn't meant to be with and they were
on this like remote island and they get to the island,
he's like, I cannot stay here with you right now,
and like got the boat that drove him over and
like took him back to the mainland. Like, oh, being
(41:41):
with someone you know you're not meant to be with
is like stifling.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Stifling is the perfect word for it.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Your draft, totally, it is. But yeah, you know you
can laugh about it later on that turned and turned
into a fun time for you.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Could you ever see yourself living in a foreign country
and where would that be?
Speaker 3 (41:59):
I could?
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Oh? Many, absolutely, I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yet you too, Oh yeah, I want to turn to
fantasize about it all the time.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Where do you fantasize?
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Well, we spent some time in Belgium. We really love
Belgium for many reasons. The food is fantastic, it's super safe,
it's clean, it's beautiful, it's well positioned for other kinds
of travel.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
It's great.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
But like, I could live in Italy, I could live
in France, I could live I'm very curious about Japan
seems super safe and very good for my anxiety. I
would love to go there, you know, I think we
think about it all the time.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Where would you go? Have you been to Norway?
Speaker 3 (42:33):
I haven't. I would love.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
You're gonna want to end today, it seems so that's
my answer for you. I love Argentina. I don't think
that I would choose that though as a second home.
I mean, there's so many places I'm privileged to say
that I've been to that I love. But if I
had to choose one place right now, Norway.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
God, that seems good for my anxiety as well.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Oh my gosh, everything about it. It is so clean,
it's so friendly, it is so efficient, well run, it's
so safe. It is stunning. It's so good for the
nervous system too. We need to start. Maybe we'll have
a retreat or something for women in the forties and
we go to Norway, because everything about that country just
put me at ease.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Court This is what I need, and is Falbard in Norway.
Hobbard is like the northernmost town. I don't know that
populated town. I think it's Norway. And okay, it's like
in twenty three hours of darkness half the year, twenty
three hours of something half the air. It sounds amazing,
like just this little capsule of community that I think
(43:30):
would do really well for my anxiety.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
But to add to that, though, we started in Oslo,
which is a massive city, and there was something about
that city that still was peaceful and safe in cam
being in a metropolitan city. And then you know, you
go across the country, you go to Bergen, and you go,
it's just fantastic. I can't wait for you to.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Go, Okay, I'm going, okay, what's the right room temperature
in an office?
Speaker 3 (43:53):
And who should set it?
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Oh? Man, you are really asking, you're going for.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Converts to sleep.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
My mind went to sleep because I like it. I
like it cool. I like it mid.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Sixties you're supposed to for sleep, but for a sleep.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
For an office, that's it. It's funny. I would say seventy.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Well, that's the perfect temperature.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (44:20):
I'm looking at you answer. I think seventy is right.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
And but I'm always curious about, like who sets these
office temperatures because it feels like men because it's always freezing.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
It's always freezing.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Well, I mean, do we have another hour to keep
talking to because talk about the work world too. I mean,
how men have created, talk about manufacturing something, How the
whole entire workday has been aligned for a man, for men, rhythm,
for their biology, everything, their hormones, How their hormones kind
of fluctuate so differently than ours. Everything is set up.
We have different creative peaks, we have different times we're
(44:55):
on off. It's so fascinating. So that's so the office
temperature is probably it's like the leal mind.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
As the least. Okay, who's a woman you admire.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Right now? I have to say Maria Shreiver because we
talked about her already and she was a massive inspiration
for this book. Sure, yeah, and I'm really grateful to
say I know her. My mind goes to fellow journalists.
My mind goes to the women who do our work.
I think of Sharon ol Fonci and I was lucky
to intern with her, and I see what she's doing
(45:31):
now in her work, in the story she covers. So
I'm just in awe because again, the work you do, Essie,
I mean, it is emotionally mentally taxing every day. So
I just again want to thank you for doing what
you do. So I think about women journalists when I
think about women. I admire me too.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Love that.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Okay, last question is very important to me. We ask
it at the end of every podcast. When is it
iced coffee season? You better get this right, girl?
Speaker 1 (45:57):
I love this radically indulgent, random of me. A unique question.
I just have to say. I love it so much.
So when is the right time?
Speaker 3 (46:05):
When is it iced coffee season season?
Speaker 2 (46:08):
It might be a trick question, but as a as
a masshole, you'd better get this right.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
See, I'm gonna say it's always iced coffee season. Yeah,
then can I add to that though things? Yes, I
am a coffee girl. The reason why I go to
bed at night is to wake up to have coffee. Now,
I like my hot, I wait for hot. I love
coffee so much.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Say that again.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
The reason I go to bed early is so I
can get up and have coffee.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
I mean, and make that to me sign that's.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Fantastic, or I'll put that on a casual sweater or something.
I'm grateful to say that. I love my life, I
love my husband, I love my friends. I am working.
I have not arrived yet. We'll see when I have.
But things, I'm feeling good because I'm pushing against all
these things and feeling good. But the last thing I
think about is coffee at night. I love my dog.
(46:59):
I don't think about my dog and I I think
about coffee. So I'm a fun betty girl. This is
a whole another and I know this is You're super
passionate about this. I'm talking about coffee, so I'm a
hot coffee girl. I appreciate ice coffee. I know not
as much as you do it, Okay, but I think
that the season is always And I'm waiting for our
(47:20):
dunkin Donuts commercial. I think Dunkin Donuts should hire you.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
Well, me too, obviously, You and it.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Yeah, you and me, We're doing the next Duncan commercial.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
Stacy Lindsay. This was so much fun.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
The new book is being forty the decade of letting
go and embracing who we are.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
You can pre order it now, right, yes, yeah, go
pre order it. And it was just great talking to
you and I love what you're working on. We'll have
to keep in touch, we will.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
This was so fun. This was so enlivening. Thank you
loved it.
Speaker 3 (47:47):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as
part of the Reason Choice Network.
Speaker 3 (47:54):
If you want more, check out the.
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Other Reason Choice Podcasts Politics with Jamel Hill and Nay
of Land Pod. For Off the Cup, I am your
host se Cup. Editing and sound design by Derek Clements.
Our executive producers are me Se Cup, Lauren Hanson, and
Lindsay Hoffman.
Speaker 3 (48:10):
Rate and review wherever you
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Get your podcasts, follow or subscribe for new episodes every Wednesday.
We don't want to have to step out the door
every day and just justify our choices and our non choices,
you know, but just justify our life. No one should
have to do that.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to Off the Cup, my personal anti anxiety antidote.
This podcast has been so great, so fun.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
We're not ending. I'm looking back, okay.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Because I've loved talking to, you know, the actors and
the artists and the writers and the musicians about their
career arcs and their trials and their successes and their heartbreaks.
I've loved talking to Josh Gadd and Huey Lewis and
Sally Jesse Raphael and Charloia Mane the God and Jim's
v Vanderbeek and so many other people. They've lived incredible
(00:44):
lives and the journalist in me loves exploring that.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
But really, at.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Its core, Off the Cup began and has remained a
kind of mental health podcast. We may not address mental
health health directly every episode, but I have intentionally created
a space because it was important to me where a
conversation about mental health could come up naturally.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Because again that was important to me.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I wanted to create that space because, as you know,
I've struggled with my own mental health, my journey and
struggle with anxiety.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
It's why this pot exists.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
And it's been just as helpful to me as I
hope it's been to others to hear people giving language
to our battles. Whether it's me talking about it, or
Mark Duplas or Brie Nestin Green or Jenny Garth.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
What I always say is when you talk.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
About mental health, it makes it easier to talk about
mental health, and that is so so crucial. That's the
ethos of this podcast. So the celebs are fun, we
love that. But all of that is to say that
this week's guest is truly an extension of this ethos,
where we're making it okay to talk about things that
(02:00):
people might be uncomfortable talking about or.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Don't know how to talk about. And I'm really really.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Excited about it because this person's talking about things we've
talked about here too, things that I've shared with you
that can feel scary or maybe even too intimate. But
not today, not today. We're going there today. Stacy Lindsay
has worked as a journalist and editor for years. She's
interviewed so many fascinating people. Fascinating women, especially like Lisa
(02:28):
Ling and Julianne Anderson and Aaron Brockovich and Savannah Guthrie
and Elan Hildebrand and Anna Quinlinn. I mean, it goes
on and on, and she's got a new book coming
out in May called Being Forty, The Decade of Letting
Go and Embracing who we are.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I love this topic. I'm in my forties, just at.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
A birthday yesterday in fact, and so much changed for
me in this decade. There was so much up evil,
so much self doubt, so much that was disorienting and knew,
and boy was it scary at times. So let's get
into it. Stacey Lindsay, welcome to Off the Cup.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I cannot wait to get into it with you.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Essie.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Thank you for having me. I am so excited and
I'm just so grateful too. And happy happy birthday. I
hope you're celebrating we're all celebrating you. I hope you're
celebrating you for the next month.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Oh wow, that's that feels indulgent, But thank you, and
I'm really I'm really glad you're here, because, as you know,
this is a very timely topic and there's sort of
been a like a boomlet of discussion. I think a
welcome boomlet around specifically around perimenopause, just for one example,
because that's that's not the whole focus of the book,
(03:39):
but it's something that you talk about a lot, with
people like Halle Berry and Naomi Watts really trying to
use their massive platforms to talk about some of the
things that women have to go through at this age.
It's like we're calming out of the closet or the kitchen,
whatever metaphor you want to use to talk about the
uncomfortable topic of age.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Why is it so hard for us to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I'm still figuring that out myself, it is, but I
know that when we do talk about it, and when
we lean in and we sort of broach the subject,
the floodgates open. But what's fascinating too, just to touch
on perimenopause and we'll talk about all of it purely menopause.
I didn't even know what it was until I started
writing this book a few years ago, and it still
confused me. And I'm so glad we're getting this information
(04:23):
and we're getting this awareness around it. But I'm thinking
it's this long. It differs for every woman too, but
it's this long, sort of nebulous time of things are changing,
things are getting tough, things are getting kind of cool
too in a lot of ways. It's not all doom
and gloom, but what is it? And that's the fun
thing about this conversation too, is we're starting to actually
get some clarity on these terms that we've kind of heard.
(04:44):
Yeah again, I was just learning in real time as
I was writing this book.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Well, that is the wild part of this. I was
thinking about this. I think about this a lot. But
you know, a couple of years ago, I was on
the phone with one of my girlfriends, she's one of
the girlfriends I have since I'm like sixteen. She brought
up some kind of change she was going through and
I was like, oh my god, me too.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
She's like, well, it's perimenopause. I'm like, shut the shut
the front door.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And it's like, why do I have to like have
a conversation with a girlfriend to figure stuff out that's
going on with my body? Why did I learn about
the cotton gin in school? But not like the biological
changes that half the planet is going to go through
at a certain time.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
It's so crazy to me.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
And some of the doctors I interviewed for my book,
they'll say they didn't learn about it in mid school.
Come on, they're just learning about it.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Come on.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
So women have been looked at as these vessels for procreation, right,
We've been looked at to have a certain role in society,
and one of those roles was to make babies, you know,
to marry into a family fill in the blank. And
so we're just kind of starting to come up for
air and we're just starting to learn about this, and
that's why there's this incredible swell of these amazing doctors
out there talking about all of this. It's new for
(05:58):
them too. I mean, they've known about it, but again,
they were in med school. They weren't taught about this.
They were taught about men's bodies. They were taught about
in clinical trials too. Wasn't until the early nineties that
it was mandated that women were included in clinical trials,
so that we have when it comes about to our wellness,
our health, the default has been how does it impact
a man? And then we're kind of second, it's wild, and.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
We're fury different. We don't even have the same stuff
that makes no sense.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Every single way we're different too.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
That blows my mind.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
But actually that's reassuring, like I haven't just been missing
no or ignoring this, Like it really hasn't just been
a thing until recently.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
And one of the reasons why I was so interested
in this is because I didn't have the vocabulary for
a lot of the stuff that I was experiencing. And
I'm curious of you. I'm imagining you experienced that as well. Yeah,
something I knew was different. And when I'm saying this
was kind of late thirties. Then when I entered the
decade of my forties, I thought, okay, and I'm not
talking about the Oh my god, I'm turning forty. I
(07:01):
had some angst around it. It's different for all of us,
but honestly, it was just another day. I didn't have
a big party. It was just another day. But it
was when I was in my forties, even just a
few months in, I started really looking at this and
I thought, something is feeling different. My body feels different.
Something about my mind where I'm allocating my energy feels different.
That's shifting too so much, and I wanted to look
(07:23):
at this, but it was a lack of vocabulary, and
I was hearing the term midlife, but I was like, Okay,
I want something more specific. What is it about the
decade of our forties? So there's something right now that
is different and I wanted to really unpack that.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Well, I'm glad you did too, And I completely understand
that impetus. When I was in the middle of my
sort of nervous breakdown and dealing with my anxiety struggle,
I didn't have language to describe what was happening to me.
I could get there with a therapist who knew the
questions to ask, and you know, we got there. But
I feel like anxiety is very misunderstood in the way
(07:59):
that this time of a woman's life is misunderstood, and
we just don't have a way to talk about it,
which is also why I, you know, started working on
a book about it, to give it that language, so
that like we could, we could have common stories to
share and light bulbs that go off and aha moments.
You can't do that if you're all kind of talking
(08:21):
in the shadows or just like with a girlfriend on
the phone.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Right and when we're talking about anxiety specifically too, And
I love that you share about this se because there's
still this shame in stigma around Yeah, yep, I've experienced
it myself. I feel anxious still day to day. I
have to work on it, but I have gone through
major dark times and I talk about a lot of
it in the book. But there's a link there too,
specifically for when we're in our forties as well, that
(08:46):
correlates to the chemical changes in our bodies, the fluctuations
of her hormones. That's going to exacerbate a lot of
the stuff that we're feeling as well.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So it's just like accumulation.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
It's a perfect storm of sense.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
It's a perfect yeah, freaking storm.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
First, you know, I wanted to know a little bit
more about you and your journey to Hear and why
you're writing this book.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
So tell me a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I always like to ask what kind of kid were you?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
You know, I was kind of to use kind of
cliche terms, but I was super super curious. I think
for our line of work to you kind of know
early on you're asking questions, and that's what I was doing.
I was doing the school newspaper, and then in college
I was thinking okay, something just I didn't really ever
fit in that, I didn't really go with the status
(09:40):
quo all of those things. But yeah, So I grew
up south of Boston and went to undergrad in Boston
at BU and then I transferred to Emerson actually got
my undergrad degree in film, which was a change because
I always wanted to be a journalist and then I
had I mean, I had a great career working in
film for a short while. I moved to New York
for mac only A Pictures, but it was still this
(10:01):
really tiny company. And then I got this incredible opportunity.
I see. It's so funny because it still it literally
fell in my lap where the late James Kahn was
looking for an assistant. So James conn for people who
are listening the Godfather and you know, one of the
great Yeah, so I moved to LA It worked for
him for several years, and he was I'm one of
the lucky ones too, because he was one of the
great ones. He became a dad. He was so deeply respectful.
(10:24):
He taught me so much about life, and I got
to travel the world with him. But I was still
asking all these questions I wanted to be a journalist,
and as this happens, sometimes you have a moment of
clarity when like something drastic happens in your life. My
father died really suddenly, and it was honestly. I went
back to Massachusetts. I was sitting next to him as
(10:44):
he was dying. He was in a coma in the hospital,
and I thought, I got to go back to school
for journalism. I want to do this, so kind of
shortening this long story. But then went back to grad
school study journalism and then hit the ground running from there.
I was a local reporter. And yeah, rest is kind
of history.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
You know, the journalism bug is. It's interesting because if
you have it, you don't you don't you don't get.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Rid of it.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
You ideally you find a way to use it right,
to do it, either as a journalist or in some
way asking the questions, following the stories in some kind
of capacity. But you don't get to totally ignore it.
It's relentless, it is. I mean, I you know, I
when I got bitten by it in college, there was
nothing else I was going to do nothing.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
I was asked to do reality shows.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I was asked to do all kinds of things that
I'm sure would have been fun. But it's all I
wanted to do, and it's still all I know how
to do and all I want to do with life,
which we'll get to because when you get to your forties,
sometimes for women, you get to like a career crossroads
and you start asking yourself, am I happy in this
thing that had always made me happy? And suddenly isn't
(11:55):
making me as happy anymore? Or isn't as fulfilling anymore?
So we're gonna get that. But but I just I
just want to stick with you for a minute. So
how do you decide I'm.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Going to write this book.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I'm going to write a book about this thing that's
more important than all.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
The other things I could write about.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Because you've interviewed some incredible people, You've done some incredible work.
There are issues I know that you're very passionate about
and that you've explored as a journalist really deeply.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Why this topic.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
I have to give the credit to fellow journalist Maria Shriver,
who I grew up idolizing, of course, and I've learned
so much from her. And I'm a contributed senior contributor
editor to The Sunday Paper, which she produces that she founded.
It was a conversation with her really because I started
really digging into kind of a created another sort of
(12:45):
beat for myself, which was this kind of pro aging landscape.
I started becoming really interested in it. Always been interested
in topics that impact women and people who identify as women,
but there was something specific about aging that maybe it
was the time of my life I was going through,
but these people that were starting to really kind of
push back on these societal narratives, and I thought, ah,
(13:06):
I like that talking to people like a Norma Kamali
who well into it at seventies is saying I feel
better and look better and love life more than I
ever have before. Okay, what are you doing? I want
to learn more about right. So it was that in
general that started really really interesting me and I just
started kind of peeling the back the layers of that.
But then at the same time, my own life experience,
(13:27):
I entered this decade and as we as we talked
about I was like, Okay, something's going on here, something
is different, and again I don't have the words for it,
what is it? And I find that the forties, I
think are a massive intersection for various reasons. For one reason,
our bodies are changing, as we talked about and hopefully
we can talk about more. Society always has something to
(13:48):
say about forty two. It is that weird, sticky point
age where you could argue, Okay, maybe the thirties is too,
in its own way the twenties, but there's something about
forty because those damn headlines. I go, oh, so and
so on how she looks so good at forty five
on getting married after forty Oh my gosh, you're forty.
You look so good. What is it about this decade?
Speaker 4 (14:10):
So?
Speaker 1 (14:10):
What was that? Also coming into the picture is life
gets harder. It just does the forties. This is a time,
if God willing, we still have our guardians or parents.
They're getting older. That is massively on our minds. If
we have children, that is obviously massively on our minds.
I don't have children, but everyone in my life does.
I've God children, And it's just a reality of life. Mortgages, rent,
(14:35):
you know, the world we live in. Yeah, especially right
now too. I mean this disloyalty to the constitution, just
to name one thing. So there's this like intersection of
all these things. And then though there's this really cool
thing that happens that I think we lean into what
really matters. I think we do start as women, whether
(14:55):
we realize it or not. I think we start reallocating
our energy toward what we really want to. We start
shifting our minds to the things that we always wanted
to put our minds toward. We start we really know
ourselves too.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
And so that confluence of things, I thought, I want
to know about this more. And then what really led
me to this book. I started asking women about it.
And I use the term floodgates. They just opened every
time I asked a woman about something related to the forties,
growing older, beauty ideals, Oh my gosh. Yeah, we couldn't
stop talking about it. And so that led to this
(15:31):
book ultimately, and the forties are in anchor for the book.
But at the same time, I really think this book
is just about being a woman today.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Yeah, right, and.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Everything we face.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah no, I get that sense as well. So I
just turned forty seven. I remember when I was approaching
my forties. I wasn't scared of getting old. I was
scared of getting irrelevant. And that's partly my bit the business.
I'm in my business has a way of sort of
sutt lyast sidelining women in their forties, And I've watched
it over and over and over again. You know, a
(16:05):
colleague of mine, a star journalist, or you know, she's
got a hit news show, and suddenly they're no longer
getting the plumb assignment, or they're no longer on the
big night, their show's taken away, and eventually they're just
kind of nowhere. And obviously that doesn't happen to everyone,
but I feel like a woman in her forties in
this business starts asking am I done?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Here? Is this business done with me?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
And that's existentially very disorienting and alarming. And I imagine
that's not just the case in my business, right is
there something about being forty in whatever career you're in
where you start wondering am I going to be left
behind here? Or sort of the converse, do I want
to get out of this?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I think that's a shared feeling between all of us.
I really do, And of course we can only talk
about our own lived experience, but from the women I
interviewed for this book and for the women who aren't
in the book, where just anecdotally can kind of call
from their stories. Yes, I think it is the beginning
of the book. I talk about Janis Adams, who's this
prolific historian and journalist. She calls it a push out year.
(17:12):
She's seen it, and she's older than us, and she's
seen it for decades. That forty is for whatever reason,
but it is again that year that industries are tough
on women. They start getting pushed out. And I want
to think it's changing, but it's still a reality. So
I think it no matter what industry. But if you're
in an industry where your currency, so much of it too,
(17:33):
is how you present to the world, you know, your looks,
your beauty, whatever you want to call it. That's you know,
that's even a bigger.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
It's another layer on top of it. It's another layer.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
It just is it's so tough. And then also I
think we start really paying attention to what's lighting us
up and what's not lighting us up anymore. To you,
that and career is such a fascinating conversation to have
because we do all the right things we can really do.
If we're lucky, we can follow our passions. You've done that,
(18:05):
I've done that, and still at the same time, we
can change our hearts, can change, our minds can change.
We can start to kind of feel as creative fire
too that maybe we want to put our creativity toward
other things that does or does not bring us money.
So work is a really interesting way to kind of
as a microcosm of so many other things that are
going on for a woman, and it can particularly for
(18:26):
this time.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Well, and let's dig in a little bit.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And I know not everyone listening is a woman who works.
That's fine, We're going to get to the other things too.
But we do talk a lot about career arcs on
this podcast. And I thought, I thought, coming into my forties,
I believed very sincerely that my work, my job was
the thing that get like defined me the most, even
more than motherhood, which is more important to me. But
(18:52):
I felt it defined me less. And I feel like
you were getting at this. We get into our forties
and we start thinking about our priorities. Yes, we start
thinking about our value and self worth and what is
it really attached to. Is it attached to our kids,
is it attached to our jobs, Is it attached to
our family, our husband, our partner. That seems to be
(19:14):
kind of an existential question we start asking ourselves in
our forties, and asking it can be really scary, really.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Scary, yeah, of course, because we feel like, are we
pulling out the threads of kind of this quilt that
we've been working so hard.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
To a and of everything we've known about ourselves, everything
we've known about ourselves.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
And again, this should talk about a should work is
a should You should do this in this way by
this time, you should accomplish these things according to this
totally made up, totally fabricated, arbitrary calendar. But still, even
though it's completely constructed by this larger system, it's there
and we pay attention to it. So when we start
kind of thinking about, oh wow, when we start looking
(19:56):
around for a second and wondering how I'm spend my time,
how im spending my energy?
Speaker 4 (20:02):
Too?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
We talk so much about time is finite, but energy
is finite. And I don't know about you, but energy
is much more finite for me these days. Oh for sure,
I like a good nine o'clock you know, bedtime too,
but it's all I'm.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Eight o'clock, nine o'clock.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
That's lovely. Oh my gosh, it's great, But it's it's
totally what's the word, It's kind of an unraveling a
little bit, and also quite beautiful, not to be Pollyanna
about it. I mean the beauty is when we really
look at this and think, Okay, what do I really
hold so tightly that I think is always going to
(20:37):
be there for me my career when necessarily it's not.
What is going to be there for me? You know?
And what do I really want to work for? My health,
my worse, my family, my friends, the feeling I have
when I'm with myself alone to.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yes, and who am I without that? Totally, it's a
very scary but important question.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yes, I think the journey that we're on in our
forties is how does my interiority match my extrateriority? You know,
how does my inside kind of align with how I'm presenting?
And work can bring up a lot of that, and
for me, for so long in work too, I was hustling,
I was putting on the smile again. I liked, I
(21:20):
have liked, and I continue to like what I'm doing,
But a lot of times too, it was quite abusive.
I was not getting paid well, I was working myself
to the bone, and I know you have done that
as well. At the end of the day, I was
going to bed quite lonely, exhausted, depleted, and I'm thinking, Okay,
my career that I have quote unquote built is not
giving me back what it should be. It's taking so
(21:41):
much more that I'm giving it. And that's not sustainable,
that's not tenable. And it's also really critical no matter
what line of work we're in, is it taking more
from us than we're giving to it? And that's the
question to really.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Have it is And those are the questions that don't
come up in your twenties and thirties. You know, I
worked very hard in my twenties and thirties and made
a lot of sacrifices. I you know, was juggling a
full time job, a book tour, grad school speeches, travel,
all the things, and I really I burned myself out.
(22:15):
But I thought, well, I'll do it now so that
when I have a family, or when I'm in my forties,
I can take a step back. And I mean I
could do that a little around motherhood, to like settle
into motherhood, but that didn't last. And now, actually, I
think because of so much change in my business and
(22:35):
in politics. Like I'm working as hard now as I
did in my twenties. I'm not thrilled about it, Stacy,
I'm not. I wouldn't choose this, okay, but this is
just where I have to be. And I'm not the
same person I was in my twenties and thirties. My
body's changed, my energy level is different, what I want
is different. So it's really tough to work like I'm
(22:59):
in my twenties while I'm in my forties.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, it's really tough. It's really tough. And I see
you and I see what you're doing, and I know
that's a fraction of what you are ultimately doing too
in your professional in your personal life. But I think
that's part of it though. When you really do care
and then you're doing you're doing something that also people
want you to show up too. When you have a
public based role too, people are expecting you, they want
(23:22):
to see you. You're feeding them. That's that's huge.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
It's a lot.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
And I know you talk a lot about empathy and
you're an EmPATH. I am too, and that is definitely
that definitely makes this job harder. You know, there's so
many times I look at colleagues who are just like.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
I don't care. I'm just I'm just here to do
the job.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
And then i go home and live my life, and
I'm so jealous, so jealous.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
So jealous.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
But I've really had to teach myself through like you know,
my my work on my mental health, to separate what
I'm covering from you know, what I'm living and what's
important inside my home and my family. But that's a
really hard thing, Like to peel those two things apart
is really hard because a I feel attached to the
(24:07):
things that are happening in the world. Be it feels
very like almost too privileged to remove yourself, like, well,
some people don't get to do that, why do I?
And through that third thing you said, people are expecting
me to talk about, you know, all this stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
And.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Sometimes I don't want to. Sometimes I can't. Sometimes I
don't have the words for it. Sometimes it's overwhelming. And
so in my forties is when I started when I
stopped just compartmentalizing everything and pushing through and saying I'll
deal with that later.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
I'll deal with that later. Because my body turned on me.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
My body shut down, and I had a nervous breakdown
and I, you know, my body was basically like, you
can't keep.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Doing this on repeat.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
You're overdosing on anxiety and you've really got to deal
with it. And I just imagine that's harder to do
in your forties than it would be in your twenties
and thirties if you were really keeping a better eye
on your mental health.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Absolutely, and you can't ignore your body. You just can't,
you know, and especially to this is the time when
we absolutely have to double down on taking care of ourselves.
However that looks, and however we're able to do that,
but we have to double down on it. But how
can we make the shifts there? How can we really
start talking about this in a way where it's not
(25:25):
these kind of macro terms of oh, you know, take
better care of yourself, step away, just I mean, that's
again all great, but how can we really start sharing practice, yeah,
you know, practical ways that we can be there for
each other, but ultimately for ourselves to start really caring
for ourselves, to start really listening too to that kind
of discomfort we're feeling and the confusion in our careers.
(25:46):
We're not going to find the answer tomorrow, but we
can start doing small things I think, to again genuinely
care for ourselves. It can be the smallest thing I see,
like I have such a guardrail up on emails. Well,
I really do tell people can't do it in their jobs,
but it's like I after six, I don't. I don't
unless there's a small window. And again, I'm in a
(26:08):
position right now that I can do that, right, So
it's different for everybody. I want to know. I used
to work the night shift as an anchor. I couldn't
do that and was working until midnight. But that shift
and I really honor it too. And I don't open
my email until after seven in the morning. I mean
I used to just kind of reach for my phone
and instantly look at everything that's going on. And I
noticed that actually was really really impacting my nervous system.
(26:31):
But it can be a small thing like that that
not saying okay, go quit your job. But there are
shifts that we can do, I think to allow us
a little bit more space to just be more compassionate too, Yeah,
be more a compassionate to ourselves. That again, things are changing,
as you said, it's just different. We're working differently than
as we did when we were in our twenties and thirties.
It's just different.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
And I think we also start feeling permission to ask
for things, and like things I definitely wouldn't have asked
for in my thirties and twenties, both at work and
at home. Right, Like whether you're setting boundaries or you're
just trying.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
To make your life a little easier.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
I think that's sort of the upside of getting older,
is at least for me, I'll just speak for me.
I started sort of questioning the things I wasn't supposed
to do, the asks I wasn't supposed to make, and like, well,
why why can't I make that ask? What's going to
(27:33):
happen if I make this ask at work or at
home to make life easier for me?
Speaker 3 (27:39):
What's going to happen if I do that.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
There's something that happens in your forties that you're like,
maybe it's you just have like fewer f's to give.
I don't know, but you just start self advocating in
a way that you know, I wish you could you
could start doing in your twenties and thirties, But it's
almost not even like it would be counterproductive to do
it in your twenties and thirties because you have a
arrived at the place where you're justified yet in making
(28:03):
those those you know.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Asks right, and again, it's I think it's because we
know ourselves so much better at this time, right, We're
really rapidly getting to know ourselves every year or two.
And it's just the default too. That's that's where the
systemic storytelling comes into play too. It is the default,
I think, and I think this is very gendered. I
think for women especially. You know what I've observed in
(28:27):
my work and my interviews. We're taught to go with
the status quo. We're taught to grin and bear it.
You know, we even totally our mothers and our aunts
and our grandmothers when it comes to going through menopause.
Oh you know what, what was that? You just grin
and bear it.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
We're taught that.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
So it is really cool that we start asking for things.
There's this awareness, it's like swell of awareness, and we
start realizing again too, oh my gosh, what's going to
happen if I ask for that thing, If I advocate
for myself, if I advocate for my time and my family.
Oh I'll get it. That's what's going to happen. I
get it right, right. The world's not going to fall apart, No, paid,
(29:05):
the patriarchy wants us to think that that's the case.
You know, don't ruffle any feathers you're.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeah, because you think, like, what are they going to
think of me?
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Right? Right?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
There's this discussion there's a lot of discussion right now online.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
I don't know how online you are, but about women
in their forties.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
So our generation, which is like Gen X and millennials
cusp that we look better than a lot.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Of girls in their twenties. Have you seen that?
Speaker 4 (29:46):
No?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Yeah, Yeah, there's this thing on.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Like TikTok where like people are saying maybe it's because
young girls are having work done earlier and or whatever
or growing up in the age of social media whatever
it is. Pople are saying that women in their forties today,
so millennials and Gen X look better than younger generations
(30:09):
do before us.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Wow, Yeah, that's wild. I wonder what that is. I
wonder what better means.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
To I know, I know it is conjected, but like
more natural, Yeah, which I can see too, because again,
like growing up in the age of social media, which
we didn't.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Luckily, we weren't as performative.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
And yes we had seventeen magazine and supermodels, but we
weren't expected to compete with them in photographs.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Our photographs went into a photo album that lived under
our bed or in our hope jest.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Right, we weren't living a life.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Where we were taking pictures trying to compete with all
the famous people and then posting them for everyone to judge. Like,
I can't imagine growing up like this. I'm wondering what
you think girls in their twenties today will be like
in their forties in twenty years from now.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
What concerns me the most in this entire conversation, but
specifically when it comes to this, is critical thinking. I
think about that. I think about our critical thinking right
now is so suppressed. But particularly I think for a
lot of one young women, particularly when it comes to
what they're going to wear, what they're going to look like,
their makeup, all of that. So going back to seventy Magazine,
(31:24):
all those magazines, we would get that if we're lucky
once a month and it was exciting, and we would
read it. We would open up, but I would pull
out pages. I would dog your pages, all of that,
but it was contained right, It was darling, and we
put it on the coffee table and then went and
lived our lives and went and got dirty or went
and talked about lip gloss or whatever. You know, as
we got older with their girlfriends, every single thing that
we do, and for all of us, no matter our age,
(31:44):
but decisions are sort of made for us all the time.
You have to wear jeans that look like this right now,
you have to contour your face a certain way. You
have to stop your eyes from crinkling after you know
this age or whatever it is. But it concerns me too.
I am so pro a woman doing what she wants.
(32:05):
I could be more pro with your body, with your makeup,
with your look, with your sexuality, with your dating, whatever
it is. But I am not pro us always satisfying
these narratives, and the narratives are just totally surrounding other
younger women in ways I don't think they really realize.
And I think it's really cool and important that older
(32:26):
generations are talking about it. So maybe they're starting to
see because they're brilliant too. Younger women are brilliant and
smart and motivated. I think they're going to change the
world all of that, But when it comes to particularly beauty,
it does concern me a little because how do you
know what you really like too? How do you know
what you really want to wear? How do you know
there's no more going to limited to or yeah forever
twenty one or whatever, and kind of splurging on a
(32:48):
couple of tops and thinking, oh, I think I look
good in this color. No, it's this is the color
that we're supposed to wear. This is what the influencers
are doing. So critical thinking is something I want us to,
like start Critical Thinking book club or something.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
There's also a big discussion online now around having kids
or not having kids, and I really hate this conversation because,
like everything else, that's becoming us versus them, like a
political statement pitting women against each other. I'm also pro
do what you want, but you know, whichever side of
it you're on, and I hate.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
That there are sides, but there are you know, there's
sort of superiority.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Complex that I have kids and so should you, or
I'm not having kids and why are why are you?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
And I'm sort of doing the on the better path.
I just hate that. And why do we as women.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Either create those binary conflicts with each other or allow
them to be created and then we fulfill them, right, Like,
I just watch this happen over the past few years
around kids, and I just hate the conversation because it's
I hate that there are a great conversations to have
around whether or not to have children, but it's not
the ones I'm seeing most most often.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
And I hate it too because it is so binaried.
And I think most things that are binary just miss
all the nuance of being alive and being a person.
So I mean, you just can't unless you're talking literally
about if you're going to have chocolate ice cream or
ventilazed bright right, that's a binary decision, but at nothing
when it comes to the complexity of just being alive.
Nothing is h for something that is so intimate and
(34:28):
just so deeply personal but also cultural about motherhood in general,
it is so so so disheartening. And the other thing is,
I do think it's larger forces at play and that
when we sort of reinforce it, because yes, we know
that women can be quite mean to other women unfortunately,
but when you look at the bigger picture, it's induced
by fear, it's induced by these systemic stories. It's something
(34:51):
larger than us that's perpetuating this. I'm not justifying anybody's
bad behavior. I really think we need to just give
each other a break, be more compassionate online and offline,
of course. But one of the beautiful conversations I had
with a woman in the book named Sarah, and she
talked about she is a mother, she has a daughter,
and she said, I have a lot of friends who
don't have kids, and they're kind of wrestling with this.
(35:13):
But there is hardship with either situation. There just is, Yeah,
so why can't we talk more about that also too?
I chose not to have kids, see, and I still
have a ton of grief around it. Not regret, but
I have a lot of grief around it. And I
can't just answer, you know, when people have asked me,
you gotta have kids? Do you want kids? Why don't
(35:34):
you have kids? It's not a neat easy answer. It's
just not. It's multifaceted, it is messy, It is confusing
still for me. There's grief, there's loss, there's relief in
it too, and I just again, I think that's a
microcosm of life, and so it really saddens me that
(35:55):
there's this binary and it really fills me with hope
that you're bringing it up right now, because that's what
we need to do.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Well.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Unfortunately, it's you know, it's in the world that I cover, right,
it's become politicized, and you know, you've got the sort
of trad wife movement on the far right, you know
that has sort of this moral imperative to have children,
and you're a bad person if you don't.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
And why aren't you populating the planet?
Speaker 2 (36:21):
I mean, I won't say that's crazy, but like, that's
certainly not something I would ever inflict on a group
of people, Like you must be like this or you're
somehow less than But I also like, I am a mom.
It's the thing I'm the most proud of.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
I love.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I can't imagine my life not being a mom. You
can't imagine your life with children because you don't have
them yet. We should be having more conversations with each
other so you understand me and I understand you, rather
than pitting us against each other where we don't talk,
we just udge each other. That's the worst thing we
(37:02):
could possibly do in a situation around an issue that
is incredibly intimate, incredibly personal.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
It's beautiful. Both choices are beautiful.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Both choices bring unwanted issues and anxieties.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
But like, we're just humans.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Can't we just talk about being human and the human
experience and condition without saying you need to be more
like this?
Speaker 3 (37:24):
It's crazy to me.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
And I think again it's fear based. I really really
do too, because I can get really angry sometimes, and
I have been at the brunt of massive judgment and
unfortunately from some women, not as much but from some women,
but to society, a search to not as much now
that I'm moving deeper into my forties, you know, but
I used to get the questions all the time when
(37:45):
you get to have kids, you don't have kids? What's
going on? All of that constantly then? And I wasn't
married for I did and get married until I was
forty three? What was wrong with me?
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Then? Like?
Speaker 3 (37:57):
What do you do?
Speaker 4 (37:58):
Right?
Speaker 1 (37:59):
It's but it's so much of it I think is fear.
I do and I think when I have felt that
anger or that oh, I just want to defend myself.
I don't want to prove myself. I don't want to
feel like I'm always in the game of proving myself.
We're justifying my life. That's the thing too. Something at
step out the door every day and just justify our
(38:20):
choices and are non choices, you know, but just justify
our life. No one should have to do that. But
I look at it as again, that's something that is manufactured,
that's bigger than us, and it really impacts us differently.
And for the people I think that kind of choose
sides and judge, I think it's probably pushed on their
hearts a little bit more. Maybe it's made their life
a little bit harder, maybe it's just but again it's
(38:40):
induced more fear in them. And so I try try.
I'm not always successful. Yeah, to have compassion and think, okay,
what's going on in your life that you feel that
you need to judge me, or to feel that you're
superior because you're walking this path and I'm walking this path.
There's no one path.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
For a life. No, no, of course not no, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
I don't have a neon sign, but I think if
I ever were to have one, I would probably say
something like that, there's a little bit paths I.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
Love that I have a neon sign.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
What is it? Say it?
Speaker 3 (39:16):
It was a gift from my husband. I love it.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
That's a good gift.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
It's a good it's a good sam all right, Well,
this was a great conversation. I want to thank you
for coming on off the cup. We like to end
with a lightning round. It's meant to be fun. If
you're game, I'm game.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
What's your favorite movie?
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Oh, my gosh, singles. I want to singles?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Yes, through such a generational poll.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I love it. It is Cameron Crow. Yeah, you got
Pearl jam, you got Chris Cornell, you got all of it.
You got Seattle Singles.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Oh totally.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
I haven't thought about that movie in a really long time.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
That's a great one. Uh okay, what's the perfect date
night for you and her husband?
Speaker 1 (40:01):
I love live music and I don't have enough of
it in my life, So if we can get some
live music in, ideally on the early side. I think
you were talking about this with Heather Dubrow recently too,
like can we have an early concert? Right? You were so,
I can't really do the nine pm concerts anymore. Maybe
there's a one off in the summertime, But so I
think that's probably why it's hard to find live music.
(40:23):
It is because I want it on the earlier side.
But I love to go out live jazz dinner, Yeah,
night by nine.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Yep, that's like girl, but yeah, sure, yep with you too. Okay,
what was your worst vacation?
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Oh gosh, I mean, you know, I'm probably I know
I'm not alone in saying this. It was a trip
I took with a guy that I should not have
gone on a trip with this guy. And the funny
thing is, too, I have a dear friend from high school.
He is still to this day one of my dearests.
He's a guy he's always been there for me. We've
always had this amazing platonic relationship. He came and rescued
me in Chicago. He drove from Boston out to Chicago
(41:04):
to sort of intercept and he came up with some
excuse too. So basically, the trip with this guy turned
into kind of a threesome of all of us, and
he took some of the pressure off. It was pretty great.
It makes for a great story.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
We I interviewed the late James Vanderbeek and he told
a similar story of going on a vacation with a
girl who wasn't meant to be with and they were
on this like remote island and they get to the island,
he's like, I cannot stay here with you right now,
and like got the boat that drove him over and
like took him back to the mainland. Like, oh, being
(41:41):
with someone you know you're not meant to be with
is like stifling.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Stifling is the perfect word for it.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Your draft, totally, it is. But yeah, you know you
can laugh about it later on that turned and turned
into a fun time for you.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Could you ever see yourself living in a foreign country
and where would that be?
Speaker 3 (41:59):
I could?
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Oh? Many, absolutely, I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yet you too, Oh yeah, I want to turn to
fantasize about it all the time.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Where do you fantasize?
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Well, we spent some time in Belgium. We really love
Belgium for many reasons. The food is fantastic, it's super safe,
it's clean, it's beautiful, it's well positioned for other kinds
of travel.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
It's great.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
But like, I could live in Italy, I could live
in France, I could live I'm very curious about Japan
seems super safe and very good for my anxiety. I
would love to go there, you know, I think we
think about it all the time.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Where would you go? Have you been to Norway?
Speaker 3 (42:33):
I haven't. I would love.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
You're gonna want to end today, it seems so that's
my answer for you. I love Argentina. I don't think
that I would choose that though as a second home.
I mean, there's so many places I'm privileged to say
that I've been to that I love. But if I
had to choose one place right now, Norway.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
God, that seems good for my anxiety as well.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Oh my gosh, everything about it. It is so clean,
it's so friendly, it is so efficient, well run, it's
so safe. It is stunning. It's so good for the
nervous system too. We need to start. Maybe we'll have
a retreat or something for women in the forties and
we go to Norway, because everything about that country just
put me at ease.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Court This is what I need, and is Falbard in Norway.
Hobbard is like the northernmost town. I don't know that
populated town. I think it's Norway. And okay, it's like
in twenty three hours of darkness half the year, twenty
three hours of something half the air. It sounds amazing,
like just this little capsule of community that I think
(43:30):
would do really well for my anxiety.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
But to add to that, though, we started in Oslo,
which is a massive city, and there was something about
that city that still was peaceful and safe in cam
being in a metropolitan city. And then you know, you
go across the country, you go to Bergen, and you go,
it's just fantastic. I can't wait for you to.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Go, Okay, I'm going, okay, what's the right room temperature
in an office?
Speaker 3 (43:53):
And who should set it?
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Oh? Man, you are really asking, you're going for.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Converts to sleep.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
My mind went to sleep because I like it. I
like it cool. I like it mid.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Sixties you're supposed to for sleep, but for a sleep.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
For an office, that's it. It's funny. I would say seventy.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Well, that's the perfect temperature.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (44:20):
I'm looking at you answer. I think seventy is right.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
And but I'm always curious about, like who sets these
office temperatures because it feels like men because it's always freezing.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
It's always freezing.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Well, I mean, do we have another hour to keep
talking to because talk about the work world too. I mean,
how men have created, talk about manufacturing something, How the
whole entire workday has been aligned for a man, for men, rhythm,
for their biology, everything, their hormones, How their hormones kind
of fluctuate so differently than ours. Everything is set up.
We have different creative peaks, we have different times we're
(44:55):
on off. It's so fascinating. So that's so the office
temperature is probably it's like the leal mind.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
As the least. Okay, who's a woman you admire.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Right now? I have to say Maria Shreiver because we
talked about her already and she was a massive inspiration
for this book. Sure, yeah, and I'm really grateful to
say I know her. My mind goes to fellow journalists.
My mind goes to the women who do our work.
I think of Sharon ol Fonci and I was lucky
to intern with her, and I see what she's doing
(45:31):
now in her work, in the story she covers. So
I'm just in awe because again, the work you do, Essie,
I mean, it is emotionally mentally taxing every day. So
I just again want to thank you for doing what
you do. So I think about women journalists when I
think about women. I admire me too.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Love that.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Okay, last question is very important to me. We ask
it at the end of every podcast. When is it
iced coffee season? You better get this right, girl?
Speaker 1 (45:57):
I love this radically indulgent, random of me. A unique question.
I just have to say. I love it so much.
So when is the right time?
Speaker 3 (46:05):
When is it iced coffee season season?
Speaker 2 (46:08):
It might be a trick question, but as a as
a masshole, you'd better get this right.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
See, I'm gonna say it's always iced coffee season. Yeah,
then can I add to that though things? Yes, I
am a coffee girl. The reason why I go to
bed at night is to wake up to have coffee. Now,
I like my hot, I wait for hot. I love
coffee so much.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Say that again.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
The reason I go to bed early is so I
can get up and have coffee.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
I mean, and make that to me sign that's.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Fantastic, or I'll put that on a casual sweater or something.
I'm grateful to say that. I love my life, I
love my husband, I love my friends. I am working.
I have not arrived yet. We'll see when I have.
But things, I'm feeling good because I'm pushing against all
these things and feeling good. But the last thing I
think about is coffee at night. I love my dog.
(46:59):
I don't think about my dog and I I think
about coffee. So I'm a fun betty girl. This is
a whole another and I know this is You're super
passionate about this. I'm talking about coffee, so I'm a
hot coffee girl. I appreciate ice coffee. I know not
as much as you do it, Okay, but I think
that the season is always And I'm waiting for our
(47:20):
dunkin Donuts commercial. I think Dunkin Donuts should hire you.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
Well, me too, obviously, You and it.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Yeah, you and me, We're doing the next Duncan commercial.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
Stacy Lindsay. This was so much fun.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
The new book is being forty the decade of letting
go and embracing who we are.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
You can pre order it now, right, yes, yeah, go
pre order it. And it was just great talking to
you and I love what you're working on. We'll have
to keep in touch, we will.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
This was so fun. This was so enlivening. Thank you
loved it.
Speaker 3 (47:47):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as
part of the Reason Choice Network.
Speaker 3 (47:54):
If you want more, check out the.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Other Reason Choice Podcasts Politics with Jamel Hill and Nay
of Land Pod. For Off the Cup, I am your
host se Cup. Editing and sound design by Derek Clements.
Our executive producers are me Se Cup, Lauren Hanson, and
Lindsay Hoffman.
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