Dating Expert Sabrina Zohar: You’re Not Confused, You’re Ignoring the Signs (THIS Mindset Shift Will End the “What If” Loop for Good)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
When you're with somebody, I don't want you to focus
on how do they feel about me? I want you
to focus on how do I feel in my body
when I'm with this person. We're so focused on are
they choosing me? Are they going to pick me, that
we end up self abandoning and say my wants, needs
and desires don't matter. I need you to like me.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, everyone, welcome back to on Purpose, the place you
come to become a happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's
guest is someone that I'm a huge fan of. I've
been following her online for quite a bit now, and
I'm so excited to introduce you to her. I'm sitting
down with Sabrina Zoha, creator, podcast host and one of
the most viral voices in modern dating. If you've ever

(00:38):
found yourself chasing people who don't choose you, mistaking chaos
for chemistry, or wondering why love feels so hard, this
episode is going to hit home. Sabrina and I are
going to dive into the patterns that keep you stuck,
the boundaries that set you free, and the self worth
you need to finally date with clarity, confidence and intention.

(01:00):
And I love her nobs approach. Please welcome to On Purpose,
Sabrina Zoha, Sabrina. It's great to have you here.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
Jay, I am so excited to be here. Thank you
for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, I'm I Honestly, when I've been following your content
and watching your videos, I was like, I need to
sit down with this one. She's got amazing insights. I
love how practically is, how real it is. But let's
dive to write in. I think the challenge today is,
or at least what I feel people struggling with, is
almost like the old challenge of sitting there with a
flower and going they love me, they love me not?

(01:29):
They love me, they love me not? And I don't
know when that was invented, but I feel like we're ruminating,
we're overthinking, we're procrastinating. How do you know if someone's
actually into you.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
It's so funny. Thank you for reminding me about the flower, because,
as you said, I was like, oh, my childhood. I
think what we're really looking for for me. I'm a
big on effort, eagles interest, and I think we're getting
in a time where that effort is starting to get muddied.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
We're looking at it as Are they texting me every day?
Are they contacting me? And we're looking at these dopamine
hits as opposed to actually connecting with people, and so
I think, for me, are you feeling safe, seen and
secure with this person? Now that might not happen after
one date, but is this somebody that is reciprocal? Are
they intentional? Are they consistent? Are they showing up for you?
And that doesn't just mean that they don't text you

(02:13):
for a day, but is this person making plans? Are
they actually progressing the relationship? And I think for me,
you know, I'll be honest, like I have ADHD, so
my cadence, my speech, I'm a totally different the way
that my brain works, So I might show up differently
and be super keen on somebody, whereas my partner super
avoidant and he's not in the texting, and his way
of showing up is I'm going to spend time with you.

(02:34):
And so I think it's really important when we're actually
trying to assess if somebody likes you. I want to
see one, how does your nervous system feel? Are we
constantly in this hypo arousal hyper arousal? Are we high?
Are we low, But I really think it goes back
to the old school way of doing it. Can you
have an open conversation with them, and at the end
of the day, can you just ask them, Hey, how
are you feeling about this and what are your intentions

(02:56):
with where we're going. I know it sounds like, oh,
we all want to trick and we all want to
like something that we can look at. But I found
really most people are pretty apt to having a conversation
if we approach it in the right way.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, And I think you're right. I think the challenge
is that a lot of us still believe that love
has to be earned and love has to be one
and so we love the idea of chasing and pursuing someone,
and they become more attractive the more they avoid us,
and they become more exciting, the more elusive they are,
and them not messaging back for three days almost makes

(03:30):
us think like they must be really busy and cool
and interesting, and so I've really got to work harder
only for us to feel let down because all of
those were just signs that I'm not into you. So
why is it that we chase people who are disinterested
or showing disconnect, not doing all the things you just said.
They're not consistent. They don't make you feel safe. They

(03:52):
actually make you feel insecure because you're constantly wondering whether
they like you or not? Why do we keep chasing them?
And what should we do instead?

Speaker 1 (04:00):
The number one question I ask is if you're chasing somebody,
if you're going into the ruminating and the spiral ing,
I want you to check in with how old do
you feel? And where did I learn this from? Because
those are the two questions, two things in general that
changed my life. Now why do we do it? It's interesting
because when we ask why questions, and not that we're
not going to answer it, but ourselves. Why don't they
like me? Why don't they why aren't they ent to me?

(04:20):
That's intellectualizing, And when we're intellectualizing, that's our way of saying,
if I can understand it intellectually, I don't have to
feel it. And for a lot of us, at least me,
I grew up in a very chaotic household. I grew
up with no safety. Really, there wasn't a presence of
joy or love, and so for me it felt familiar.
My nervous system understand, oh, you're not into me similar

(04:41):
to my dad. Then let me make you, let me
earn it. And then there's the term repetition compulsion. Have
you heard of it?

Speaker 2 (04:46):
Okay, no, I've no, Actually yeah, So.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Repetition compulsion is a Freudian term, and essentially what it
means is you're going to date the parts of you
that haven't been healed.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
And so it's say that again, that is so good.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, So repetition compulsion means you're going to date the
parts of you that haven't been here. So for me,
I had a narcissistic father. Every man I dated was
incredibly narcissistic. Why because my nervous systems homeostasis was you
need to earn it. You're not enough. There's something wrong
with you that gets wired into us before words can
even be said out of our mouths. That is wired
in based on how your caregivers are tuned to your needs,

(05:17):
how are they showing up for you? And I want
to preface as well, no one's villainizing anybody's parents. This
isn't about you are the worst parents. You had a
big ta trauma. Oftentimes it could be those small little
paper cuts that start to add up. Maybe you had
a parent that was really busy and they just didn't
make eye contact with you. And so now you feel
that I need to get somebody. And oftentimes we're self
abandoning because if I can get you to like me,

(05:37):
well then my dad was wrong and everybody in the
past was wrong. But what happens then it reaffirms my
core belief. See, I knew there was something wrong with me.
That person doesn't want me, I couldn't change them. That's
where I ask when I start to chase somebody, how
old do I feel? Do I feel like a kid?
Do I feel like man? I feel like I'm seven
years old talking to my dad. So then we're not
actually present, We're not in this present moment. We're not
coming from the adult. We're coming from the little wounded

(05:59):
kid that just needs to be seen, heard, loved, and understood.
Then what I would say is I start to look
and say, what are my choices? If you can't access
your choice, then that means we need to regulate. And
so this is something that actually blew my mind. My
friend's a brilliant neuroscientist. His name is doctor Chris Lee,
and he taught me your state determines your story determines

(06:19):
your strategy.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Tell me about what that state means.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
So the state being are you, what is your nervous system?

Speaker 3 (06:24):
State?

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Are you regulated? Meaning I can access my prefrontal cortex,
I can access choice. Right now, I feel safe, both
of us are here. But if somebody came in with
a knife, we would get disregulated. You might bolt, I
might freeze, right, our nervous system will change.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Yeah, I would just leave you right.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, But everybody handles it differently. Right, you might fight.
Everybody is going to come out depending on what feels
safe and in the moment. But oftentimes the problem is
that there's no tiger, there's no threat. It's just our
nervous system is perceiving it because our brain wants to
save space. And if our brain says it's easier for
me to go, this always happens. Then I don't have
to turn my proferntal court text on it access that

(07:01):
place of choice. So when we look at your state,
think about it in if I'm super disregulated, my state
is going to determine the story. I'm not safe. I
need this person to answer me there's something wrong with me,
I'm not good enough, which will then determine my strategy.
I'll text them again. I'll get them to like me
as opposed to I need to learn to sit in
the discomfort I have to allow myself because when we

(07:22):
can sit in the discomfort and expand our window of tolerance,
which essentially means how long we can stay in our
ventral state versus going up and down. When you expand
your window of tolerance, you can handle more things. Then
it's not as scary. Right the person that doesn't call you,
it's that's okay. Maybe they're going through something. I don't
need to make it about me. But oftentimes the reason
we go after these emotionally unavailable people is because they're familiar.

(07:44):
They're familiar, they're safe, and it's a baseline because if
that's all you've known, then that's all you're going to do.
You can't do better until you know better.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Do you take perfect clients? There's many people want to
introduce you to. Now. I'm so excited that you're here.
I couldn't agree with you more. And that's that's sat
so deeply and resonated so strongly for me. Right now
as you're saying it, is this such a thing as
immediate red flags? Are there things that people can say
and do that you consider it to be immediate red flags?

Speaker 1 (08:12):
One hundred percent? I have a few that come to mind.
The first one is my favorite question to ask on
a first date is how did your last relationship end?
And what did it teach you about yourself? I don't
care about your ex I really I could give a shit.
What I care about is what did you learn from it?
Are you growth minded? Do you take accountability and ownership?
For instance, the biggest thing that narcissists will say is
all my exes are crazy. Okay, well, if all of

(08:33):
your exes are crazy, what's your accountability in it? Do
you have any empathy for their experience? That off the
bat shows us no thank you. Another thing that I
always suggest to run is when somebody tries to say
you deserve better, Because when someone says you deserve better,
what they're saying is I'm not going to become the
version of what you need me to be, so you
should find somebody else. We also want to look what
happens when you say no, that doesn't work for me.

(08:55):
Do they respect your boundaries? Are they pushing back? I've
had that right when I dated if somebody said I
want to go out at ten o'clock, I would say,
oh no, I go to bed by nine thirty. I
apologize it doesn't work for me. Why don't we do six?
Oh wow? What is there something wrong? Or is your
babysit or not going to let you unmatch immediately because
you didn't respect what I had to say. So then
what are we leading towards? If off the bat, you're

(09:15):
making fun of me for setting a boundary. So I
think what's important is we're so focused on are they
choosing me? Are they going to pick me? That we
end up self abandoning and say my wants, needs and
desires don't matter. I need you to like me. And
so we then overlook all the red flags of well
are they showing, are they holding any space for you?
Do they use eye statements? Or do they blame you

(09:36):
for everything?

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Right?

Speaker 1 (09:37):
These are the little things that we overlook, and not
because there's anything wrong with us, but because maybe we
weren't taught any better. And I know I wasn't. I
used to think grandiosity and the charm. Butterflies, those are
my favorite thing, until I found out butterflies are actually
your nervous system's a way of telling you that you
might need to run because if that person wasn't as attractive,
you probably wouldn't be as interested.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
That's exactly what I find. We're willing to tolerate so
so much poor treatment because we find someone attractive, interesting,
or fascinating in whatever way, whether it's their mind, their body,
their face, their charm, and someone who doesn't have those
features that we subjectively are attracted to, even if they

(10:18):
did all the other things, we just pushed them away.
But again, it comes back down to what you're saying
that those butterflies that we trust as a sign of
excitement and chemistry and desire are usually a sign of please.
You're feeding all this, but don't ignore all of this.
And the natural thing is it just hijacks that mindset

(10:39):
and it takes away all of the sense that we
have and we've all had that feeling, right you meet
someone and you're so enthralled and impressed by them that
you completely ignored all of these things. How do we
feel a sense of spark in chemistry with someone but
not forget our head?

Speaker 1 (10:53):
So that's really goes back to that regulating because here's
the fallacy that I think a lot of people may
not understand about a healthy and secure relationship is if
you're having high highs and low lows, then that is
inherently not healthy and secure because what we have is
intermittent reinforcement. Are they giving me a little? Okay, I'm waiting, waiting, waiting. Oh,
I come crashing down, then they give me a little
We're high low high low. A healthy and secure relationship

(11:16):
for me, at least, was a lot less exciting. It was, Oh,
when I communicate with you, you validate what I just said,
so I don't have to argue with you. I don't
have to prove my worth. And for a lot of
us that can feel really scary. I know when the
first time I said a boundary, I was terrified. I
was so scared. I'm like, he's gonna leave me, He's
not gonna like me, he's gonna think I'm too much.
And that was how I thought of myself, and that's

(11:36):
what I was projecting onto him. Now did people in
the past do that one hundred percent? But I have
met my fair share. I'm a heterosexual woman, so I'm
gonna speak in those norms where I've gone on dates
with men that are. I'll tell you a story. I
had a date that was written in the stars, right.
I remember, I was like sweating sitting next to this guy.
People were like, you guys have been together for years now.
It's our first date and we're together for five hours

(11:56):
and we make out at the bar. It's a whole thing.
And I was supposed to see me again. Didn't end
up seeing each other years later. This was an on
and off, on and off thing, and he kept getting
a girlfriend and on and off. Years later, I'm getting
I'm in an appointment. I didn't want to give it
away by saying where I was. Years later, I'm in
an appointment. I'm telling the girl this story, and all
of a sudden, she stops and goes what was his name?
And I said his name and she turned white and

(12:18):
she started shaking, and she's like, that's my narcissistic ex
who literally ruined me. And she was hyperventilating and I
had to hold her and I was like, oh my god,
I'm so sorry, and she was like, he was abusive,
he was doing all of these things to me. I
finally got out, You're so lucky you didn't go down
that road. And in the moment. She was right because
I completely overlooked the fact that he lied to me
a bunch of times. He never took accountability. He was

(12:41):
constantly deflecting. There was zero depth. Right. He didn't want
to have the conversations. Now, that's different than if he
wanted to he would, That's not what I'm talking about.
He didn't have the capacity. And so I think what
we're looking for is when you're with somebody, I don't
want you to focus on how do they feel about me?
I really don't care. I want you to focus on
how do I feel in my body when I'm with
this person? Do I feel secure? Do I feel confident

(13:03):
that I could say what I need? Or am I
scared that everything I say I don't know how they're
going to react. You can be excited, but my mama
has said to me, anytime you're excited, you need to
add something at the end of the sentence. For now,
and everything was. I had a great date for now.
I really liked this guy for now because what it
allows us to do is be in the present moment.
For now. I really like this, But I'm not projecting
on the future. I'm not putting that I'm only safe

(13:24):
if I have this person, Because when we put someone
in a pedestal, we're saying they're above us. I have
to have them. But really what we're looking for is
two equals. Right, I give eighty percent one day, maybe
you give eighty percent, and we're balancing and we're going
back and forth. But the presence of safety and a
healthy and secure relationship actually means that it's going to
be a lot less up and down, and it's going
to be a lot more consistent. And for people like

(13:45):
me that grew up in chaos, that felt really scary
because I didn't understand it.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah, about what about someone? I've heard this a lot lately,
and that's what I'm asking you from people i'm coaching
and working with. What happens when someone shows you all
the right things for four to six weeks, So they
text back, they're consistent, they show up when they say
they will, and then all of a sudden, after six
weeks of spending nearly every other day together or seeing
each other multiple times a week, they change. Now they're inconsistent.

(14:14):
Now they message back after three days. Now they don't
have time to see you. Something's come up in their life,
and then you're waiting around only for three months in
they go, yeah, this is not working out. That comes
with such a shock to people. Now. Love bombings one version,
but that often feels like it's one person just trying
to win you and show you and kind of, you know,

(14:35):
kind of give you this perspection that they love you.
But this is more like, no, we're just both being adults.
We're connecting. There seems to be regulation, there seems to
be consistency. I'm seeing all the good signs, but then
two months in you're a totally different person. How have
you seen people deal with that in a good way
or in a healthy way.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
It's jarring, right, It would never I'll never discredit one's
experience that when you think everything's good, but even you
said something in the beginning that was really important. If
they spend every other day together, it's like, that's intensity,
and that's the thing. And that's why I can feel
really scary and really because there's a lot of people,
depending on the attachment style that they have, where they
go and they operate from feeling's minusphere, and so for

(15:13):
some people they'll go in one hundred percent of I
feel really good now I feel really good now because
they're not taking a minute to say, hey, is this
actually what I want? What does this person have are
their qualities? For a lot of people, they might enter
it in in excitement. Look they're there, I'm here, and
we're excited. We're excited, we're excited, and then the novelty
is off because the person is consistent because they're not
playing games, they're not being activated in the same way.

(15:34):
And that's usually when you'll start to see the pull away.
For me, so I'm a big proponent of going slow.
Going slow isn't an excuse for bad behavior. Going slow
just means you're not expediting the stages of the relationship
quicker than they need to be. And so what that
could even look like is saying, I sorry, I have
plans this week. I can only see you once or
twice because I'm maintaining my life. You haven't earned a
place in my life yet. And I see that a

(15:55):
lot of the times. And I used to be her.
I would meet a guy. I saw this terrible dating advice.
She said, always have your dates on Thursday, because if
it goes well, you can make plans for Saturday. And
I said, oh, absolutely not, no, ma'am, because then I'm
too accessible. Then what I'm telling this person is I
have nothing going on, what do you want to do?
And instead they're an addition to my life non instead
of And so if I'm welcoming you into my life,

(16:15):
you have to earn that place into my life. And
so I would say this, if it's happened, the best
thing to do is want not take it personally, because
we have to ask how could it be you?

Speaker 3 (16:24):
Now?

Speaker 1 (16:24):
If you can remove yourself and say, Yike's okay? I
text them three hundred times yesterday I called them a bunch,
I started accusing them. Great, if you can be self
aware enough to remove yourself and understand it. But a
lot of the times we have to say, what's the
story and the narrative that you've created about the situation,
because that's usually what's hurting more. It's less about of course, right,
But if you knew this person for a month and
a half, do you really know anything about them? Or

(16:46):
is it the idea of them the scarcity mindset? I
might never meet anybody else. They were the best I've met.
I haven't met anyone like this, So then we're already
putting them in a place that they haven't earned, because
if they were so amazing, then they would have stuck
around and instead of thinking about what if, we have
to look at what is, and what is is that
this person didn't show up in the ways that I need.
That doesn't work for me.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yeah, I can't wait to send that to so many
people to listen to because sadly it seems to be
the reality. And I agree with you completely that it's
all about that regulation because when we like something, we
want to fall in love and we want it to
be real, and we want to speed it up, and
we want to spend every night with that person, because

(17:25):
that's what the movie showed us, and that's what the
music talked about, and that's what we believed was love.
Not only to realize that you are just making your
access weaker, you're giving away all of yourself with not
even knowing whether this person deserves it or has the
values for it, or has the character for it. And
you can see it in hindsight, but then you go
make the same mistake because we all just want to

(17:46):
be wanted so bad. We all want to be needed
so bad. We want to be loved so bad that
we're willing to give away our energy, our presence, our
body freely because it just feels so good to be wanted.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
Course, who doesn't want to be wanted? But here's my question,
who do you want to be wanted by them? Or you?
More often than not, when we're I need them, I
need them. Your littles aren't scared that they're going to
leave you. You're little just scared that you're going to
leave them, because that's what's always happened to them. If
growing up, even for me, my experience was my father
was very abusive to us and he was not Father

(18:20):
of the Year by any means, and so for me,
it was please come back for me, Please come back
for me. And I didn't realize that in my dating life,
I was doing to her what my dad did to me.
I was doing to her and saying you don't matter
to me, get away your too much. So if I'm
shaming and blaming myself, how am I going to grow?
If I show myself compassion, I can actually do that,
and I understand the need and desire to be wanted.

(18:41):
But if we my mom again will say, if you
got to love yourself, more than the need to be
loved by other people. It's not that I can't love
you if you don't love yourself. That's a fallacy. Money
of people can love you if you don't love yourself.
But if I need you in my life versus want
you in my life, it's going to be very dangerous.
And I found that out when my dog passed away.
I used to joke when he was alive, I'd be like, Oh,
he's never going to die. Oh he's never going to die.

(19:03):
And then he did, and it happened within ten days,
and it was the hardest thing I've ever experienced. And
I lost everything in that moment. And that's when I
realized I can't be so beholden to an external because
I lost myself. I was a shell of a human.
But I started my career at the same time, and
I made that promise to myself, I will never and
so even in my partnership now, I love my partner.

(19:24):
I think he is one of the most amazing people
I've met. But I also know that if today we
decided it wasn't going to work, I'd move on with
my life, not because I don't love him, and not
because I don't think that we could have a beautiful
life together. But I also know that my life goes
on and I can't be holding onto somebody else hoping
that they're going to validate and choose me for me
to live that life.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
I'm so sorry for your loss. What was your dog's name?

Speaker 1 (19:45):
His name was Clem. I've got him. He was my
best friend and he was my object permanence. He was
with me for ten years and he saw every heartbreak,
he saw everything, and I think at the end of
the day, what he taught me was that there are
things in people that can love you for who you are.
Like I know, I know I'm a big personal I
know I talk fast, and I have a different cadence
and I come out of the bat and I know
that a lot of people might not like that. But

(20:06):
if I hate that about myself, how am I going
to be with someone that loves that about me? Because
I'm constantly going to be trying to change that. Yeah,
and so my dog really taught me this really unconditional
love and what that means. And he also taught me
that I don't need to be for everybody and that's okay.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, well said beautiful lessons. I feel like right now
everyone is exhausted with dating apps, setting up dates, figuring
out who's going to pay for it, where you're going
to meet, Where do you start? If you're exhausted with
dating but you want to find love.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
I think what's really important is we have to look
at what's exhausting us. I used to get exhausted from
dating because I was putting so much pressure. I was
putting all I would match with a guy and be
checking my phone hype like every three seconds. Where are they?
Have they answered me? Because what was I saying? They're
going to make my life better? This is what I'm
waiting for, this is what it is. And if I'm again,
if I'm not focused on what is right now, then

(20:59):
I'm thinking of all of these other things it could be.
And so I would say, if you're tired from dating,
then we have to start taking a break where they need.
And that just means again, let's talk about state story strategy.
If your state is burnout and exhaustion and you are
just completely done, then your story is going to be
there's no one for me. I'm so tired, I'm never
going to meet anybody. I want this to be done.

(21:21):
So what's your strategy going to be. You're going to
constantly go after the wrong people. You'll hold onto people
because you're scared to let them go. And I think,
here's the thing. What I've learned and why people are
so tired of dating is because they haven't learned to grieve.
Because when you hold onto everything and you haven't learned
how to grieve the ending of things, it's going to
be very difficult for you to move on and go
to the next and go to the next. Because the

(21:42):
reality is my partner always says, think of the stupidest
person you know, and remember that the population is about
forty nine percent stupider, right, Like, there are a lot
of duds. There's amazing people out there. But that's what
dating is. And dating is that you go out and
you see not just are you choosing me? But do
I choose you? Do you work with my life? But
I can't do that unless I learn to grief. And
so I think a lot of the fatigue we need

(22:03):
to look at and say where is that coming from?
And then ask what are my choices do I have
to engage in that? Now I met my partner on
an app. You don't have to meet your partner in
an app. But if your answer is I don't want
to do dating apps, are you okay getting rejected in person?
Are you okay going up to someone and saying I
love that sweater and they go, I have a girlfriend,
no worries. Thank you so much for asking for that,
my brother, But thank you for telling me right, you've

(22:24):
got to be okay and be really grounded in yourself.
Apps are easier because you're and so I think it's
the expectations that we have and we have to remember.
Apps are a dopamine addiction loop, and so is your
cell phone. That's why I'm a big fan of don't
text a lot, because what happens when you meet somebody
and you start texting a ton You're creating a dopamine
addiction loop. And so your brain is going, I need more,

(22:45):
I need more, I need more, because it's trying to baseline.
And then when you're stressed, all of your nerve transmitters
are being depleted, and then here we are where you're
a hot mess because the person didn't text you back
in twenty minutes. And so I think the exhaustion and
fatigue really comes from what are we thinking that these
people are going to give to us? And then how
can I live that life now? So that when I
meet someone, I say, I'm allowing you in my life
because you're not going to mess with what I have.

(23:06):
And that's how it was. When I met my partner,
I was a shell of a human. I lost cleam,
my company, I was I was supposed to be in
Shirk tank and it didn't work. It was a whole thing.
But I remember thinking in my head, I can't afford
to lose myself. And so when I met him, I said, hey,
ILL looked him in the eyes. I'll be honest with you.
I slept with my partner in the first date, and
I looked him in the eyes when we left after
we went to dinner, and I said, I had a
really great time with you, and if this is all

(23:27):
it was, thank you so much. I really needed tonight.
But if not, and you're gonna call me again, don't
waste my fucking time. You better call me because you're intentional.
And he was like, he thought that was so sexy.
He was like, man, and he said it you weren't
afraid to lose me. He was like, you were more
afraid to lose yourself. And that made it very sexy
because he knew that me wanting him in my life
wasn't me trying to hold on to him.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
I was choosing him. I love that. That's so cool.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, it's a different energy. Yeah, and that's I think.
And I'll be honest, I didn't wake up like this.
I used to be so I created my career because
I was so anxious. I couldn't sit still. I would
oh my god, Jay, you don't want to know. In
my heyday, I would text a guy and say like
I would text him, hey, do you want to hang out?
Twenty minutes would go by it, and you're back. I'd write, Okay,
guess not. And then I'd get a textrom him like hey,

(24:10):
I actually did want to hang out with you, but
not anymore. And it's like they're right. It's so right
because they could pick up on I need you, and
nobody wants to feel that when you just met somebody.
It's a very overwhelming feeling. I don't care what your
attachment style is.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah, but I think that's the challenge, right, that we
are scared of being ourselves because ourselves? Is that right now?
Where our natural gut reaction is to message someone hey
do you want to hang out? Hey? Are you sure
you don't want to hang out? Like you know? And
that's who we are because we are coming from a
place of insecurity and not feeling safe, as you said earlier,

(24:46):
from our past wounds, and so being ourselves doesn't help
either because being and so then we block being ourselves.
So we say, oh, you know what, I'm going to
be mature, I'm going to send one message and I'm
going to wait. But the real you is stressing over
the fact that you want to send an now the message.
And so how do you live between those two worlds,
between wanting to become your higher, more evolved, emotionally intelligent self.

(25:08):
But really you're stuck being insecure, insecure, confused, and chaotic.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
So that's not the only thing I'll challenge you on
is who says that who you are?

Speaker 2 (25:15):
Who says that?

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Who says that who you are?

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Right? I mean, not who you are at the core now,
but who you are right now? That's your base level.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
We totally then I would go back and say where
did I learn that from? Because if we're if we're
going to date from lack and we're going to date
from I'm insecure. I don't believe in myself. It's going
to be really difficult to let someone love you in
the ways that you deserve because the reality is, and
you know this, you're married, your partner's going to trigger you.
You are going to be triggered. Your partner's going to
piss you off. They're going to say things and you're like,
oh no, m but you don't because you care about

(25:43):
this person and you love them. But part of being
a human is you're going to get triggered. And so
I think what I see, especially with a lot of people,
when we have that insecurity, is for me, I would say, okay,
is that who you are? Is that what you were taught?
Because if that's what I was taught, then that means
that who I authentically am. I authentically am someone who
has a lot of light, who's excited, who's passionate, who's gregarious,

(26:04):
who's vivacious, who's a big personality. I'm not insecure. I'm
not those things, but I do identify as that, and
I think that's very human. So I would say what
we want to start to do is look at I
would never suggest somebody date if they're in such a
place of lack, I would not. It's the same as
anything else, like I wouldn't suggest somebody go and run
a marathon if they've never gotten off the couch. It's
like we want to move in steps because like New

(26:25):
Year's resolutions, your nervous system is going to go I
can't do this way too overwhelming, So we want to
go smaller and have bite sized kind of steps. And
so maybe that means that if you want to be
the really evolved person that only sends what text and
you are hell in a handbasket, then maybe that means
that we put one minute one minute, because what we're
trying to do is we're trying to take the stimulus

(26:45):
and put space between reaction and response. And so maybe
that's it for one day you say, okay, I waited
the minute and then I sent the text. But then
the next day maybe it's you waited two minutes, you
waited three minutes. What we have to look at is
what are my choices? Sure we can keep showing up
in those ways, or we can say, wait a minute,
I need to regulate my nervous system. I need to
break this loop. I need to go for a walk.
I need to get myself back into a place where

(27:06):
I can access choice. Then I can decide if I
want a text this person. We can have all those tools,
but then we have to look and say, but am
I identifying with something right? I'm sure you hear this
all the time. I am anxious attachment. No, no, no,
you're not that you have that. I am not ADHD.
I have ADHD. If I self identify and I fuse
with the parts, it's going to be very difficult for
me to see myself in any other light. And so

(27:27):
I think if we have insecurities, we're all human. I do.
I think every day there's something wrong with me because
I'm a person. But what I do is I then
stop and say, what did my little need to hear?
What did little Sabrina need to hear when she said, oh,
this must be why there's something wrong with me. She
needs someone to come and say no, that has nothing
to do with them. I think you're amazing. I think
you're really cool, and I'd like to hear what you
want because we haven't. We have to hold the space

(27:49):
in a way that we weren't held when we were there.
That's how we'll start to be able to build through
the insecurities date from a more regulated space. But without that,
or put makeup on a pig right, they'll like, oh,
send him this text to get this. It's like I've
gotten inappropriate photos. It does not work, like I've gotten
my fair share where I'm like, that's not what I expected.
Because you can't manipulate and control other people. You can

(28:10):
only control yourself.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah, I don't love that advice. I don't think it works.
It doesn't and it's just gamified and it's not you,
and it's a technique and it's a strategy that ends up.
You know, it's like strategies of like business and projects,
not for people. And you know, when it comes to people,
you want to be able to be authentic, be yourself
and connect with someone on a real perspective rather than

(28:33):
having some perfect AI script out your perfect text message.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
We've gotten a few profiles where I look and I'm like,
that was chattebt that wrote it. I actually had a
client once and he I would talk to him and
I was saying, you know what if they said this,
and he was writing it and taking the exact so
he had all this depth on his profile, and then
he would say, I don't understand. Why am I not kidding?
Why are these girls not wanting to meet me? I said,
can I see the match?

Speaker 2 (28:53):
Like?

Speaker 1 (28:53):
Can I see the conversations?

Speaker 2 (28:55):
Hey?

Speaker 1 (28:56):
You look pretty? And then one girl even said, but
your profile is so deep? What is this? And I
was like, you can't pretend for How long are you
going to pretend for? That's going to be really exhausting.
That's going to lead you to burnout. Versus You're right,
people aren't going to like me, and that's okay because
I have to be My mom has always said, you
can please some of the people all the time, but
you can't please all the people all the time, and
you've got to be okay to disappoint people with who

(29:17):
you are.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
You talk about setting a foundation in dating. I want
to hear about that, because I think when people are dating,
we almost see it as just like, Okay, well this
person messing me back, I'm now talking to them. Now
we're going to go on a date maybe this other.
But I don't think we have a system. I don't
think we have a foundation. I don't believe we have
non negotiables that we create and craft to keep us
on track. What would you say are the foundations of

(29:56):
dating and what are the non negotiables that allow us
to make that experient it's more effective for us.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
For me, my number one non egosh goal was you
have to be done with your ex. Like, I am
so tired of hearing, Oh, my ex wants to get
back together. I'm not over my ex. It's like, then,
please don't get back into the dating world. If you
don't feel like you can be present with somebody else.
It's okay that you might still be hurting, but then
please don't go back out there. I think for me,
I want to see are you growth minded? My partner
always asked questions, and the one question he asked was

(30:22):
what is something you changed your mind about recently and
what prompted the change. I want to see are you
rigid or are you flexible?

Speaker 2 (30:28):
Right?

Speaker 1 (30:28):
We want to start to understand that what happens when
I say no, what happens when I set a boundary?
How do they treat waiters? I want to see somebody
when they're disregulated, because then I want to see did
you just yell at that person because he didn't get
your car at the time that you wanted no, thank you,
I have no interest in this. And so what we're
trying to look and see is that, first of all,
is like, does this person treat other people well? Is

(30:48):
it somewhere where I can feel comfortable? Are they using
eye statements or are they saying you never call me,
you never do this? Okay, so we're using all in never.
Those are not really fair terms. But I think when
we're talking about a solid foundation that's going slow comes
into play because what we're doing is we're saying, every
single time I see you, it's first date, just to
see if I want to have a second, second, just
to see if I want to have a third. But

(31:09):
oftentimes we go on a first date and say Prince Charming,
and the thing is Disney lied to us because Disney
told us what happened Happily ever After. They didn't tell
us did Prince Eric have a drinking problem?

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Right?

Speaker 1 (31:18):
Like did Beauty and the Beat? Did did Belle not
get out of the house again? Was she dealing with that?
We don't know what comes after it. We just see
happily ever After? And so what we're really looking for
is what does that look like to you? And I
think for me, I was so focused on but if
you like me, I like me, instead of saying no,
I actually don't enjoy that and holding the space to
say I don't like that, and if you don't either,

(31:39):
that's okay. But I think the solid foundation comes when
you can have a space where you can trust, and
that includes hard conversations because I think a lot of
people and I'm sure I'm curious if you hear this
as well. I hear it every day. If I don't want
to be too much, I don't want to push them away.
If I ask that they're gonna think I'm too much,
then good fuck, go find less. If you think I'm
too much, I'd encourage you to go find less because

(31:59):
that doesn't make me too much. What that means is
that I want to see if you are okay for me,
And that's why I'm big on If somebody says something
that hurts you, hey, can I share something with you?
What's going on? I really didn't love the way you
said that. It really made me feel small. I felt
very dismissed and discredited. Moving forward, can we have a
different way of saying it? If your partner absolutely, thank
you so much for telling me, great, move on, go in,

(32:20):
you pass, go collect two hundred dollars. But if you
can't even have the rupture, the regulate and then the repair,
you're not going to be able to move forward with
these people. And so I think from the beginning, that's
why I told my partner that after first date, I
could have left and gone play cool. Oh my god,
don't say anything. What did I have to lose? I
hit myself and that was way too high of a price.
And so I'm a big fan of don't trauma dump. Please,

(32:41):
don't trauma dump on a first date. Please please. We
don't need to start talking about like how your father
hit you when you're a kid. Your date does not
need to know that. We have to be really cognizant
that we don't know who these people are and we
don't know what information they could take and put in
their back pocket and use against us. Trust is conditional.
I give you a little, I see what you.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
Do with it.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
I give you more. Absolutely, that's the fact I want
people to build, which is I trust myself because no
matter what, I have my back, and if you don't,
that's okay, I do because I'll speak my voice now
needs to be heard and it never was. And I
think that's part of the foundations is having your non
negotiables mean I'm not playing small anymore. This doesn't mean
I need to overreact, but I'm not going to place more.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
One of your greatest skills, Sobrina, as I'm hearing you
talk about this is your ability to advocate for yourself.
And that's what encouraging people to do is to actually
advocate for yourself your beliefs, your thoughts, your values. And
I think that's a skill that no one really has
or is trained in in that there's nowhere in life
that teaches you to advocate for yourself, Like school never

(33:37):
taught you that, your parents rarely tell you that, and
when you're young, you just ask for stuff. You're not advocating, right,
You're like saying, oh, I want this for Christmas or
I want this for whatever. But you're not advocating, like
you're not presenting an argument or sharing a value because
you've been treated a certain way. And we struggle to
do it at work. People struggle to do with their colleagues,
their bosses, their managers, everyone. So as I'm listening to them, like, okay,

(33:58):
Advocating for ourselves is one of the biggest skills, and
I remember talking about foundations for dating or being clear
and advocating. I remember when me and Ridley first started dating.
One of the first things I said to her was
I was like, I'm not the kind of guy that
wants to go to the cinema on the weekend and
then go to a furniture store. And then like, that's
just not who I am. And I'm the kind of

(34:20):
guy who has a purpose and this is what I
do on my weekends and this is my priority. And
I just want you to know that that's not because
I think this is less than this is just who
I am. And I just wanted her to be clear
on what she was getting involved in where I was like, hey,
if there's a clash between something that's a family event
of yours or me, And at the time I was
doing like per five person events in London, I was like,

(34:42):
if I've got an event, I'm always going to prottesze
my event because I'm doing that on my weekends and
it's really big for me. But if it's something that
you really want me to come to, then it's a conversation,
but more likely than not, I'm going to advocate for
wanting to go to this thing. And I did that
not to be douchey or to be self righteous or
to be better. I did it because that that's just
who I am, and luckily rather at the time would

(35:03):
be like, yeah, totally get them. By the way, if
you want me to be at that and I have this,
I'm probably going to go to this because as much
as I want to support you, this is a priority
for me, and our relationship is continue to be that
way up until this point. And to me, I've just
seen as a great strength that I was able to
advocate and she was able to advocate for herself. Now
had I not advocated for myself. And I think often

(35:24):
what we do is we try to advocate for what
the other person should do. So hey, when I do this,
can you come and join me? Rather than like this
is a priority for me and I'm going to make
it a priority for myself, teach us the skill of
advocating for ourselves, because most of us just want to
let it go because we don't want to be too
much enough or crazy.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
I think where it started from as a memory that
comes very vividly when I was a kid. My dad,
like I had mentioned, was not a very kind man
at times. And my sister and I got into a
fight and I ran into my room and I remember
he said, open the door. I promise you I'm not
going to hate you. And I said, no, you are.
And I remember I had a little suitcase. And I
only know this because I had to go back and
see her. And I kept asking myself, where did I

(36:06):
learn that I couldn't speak up? And it was because
I said, Dad, do you promise? And I opened the
door and he punched me in the face and I
was bleeding everywhere and he left and he left us
for three weeks, and I remember my brother on the
couch saying, how am I going to be the man
of the house. I'm only fourteen and I was seven,
and so I knew in that moment, you're not safe.
And I also learned in that moment is you can't
speak up. You got to keep your mouth shut, girl,

(36:26):
because if you open it up, you're going to have
this again. You almost lost your father for your family.
And I carried that with me and it wasn't until
I started to do the work where I said, where
did I learn that from and I went back and
I literally I opened the door for her and I
told him get out of my face, and I spoke
to my father as the version now, and I took
her and I said, we're out of here. You don't

(36:48):
have to live here anymore. And I have done that
every single day, because whether she be in the attic,
whether she'd be back in that room, it doesn't matter
where she is. For anybody that's listening. You might not
have that journey, you might have it be something completely different.
But if you want to advocate for yourself, you got
to learn where you learn that that wasn't safe. And
I have to give myself permission to advocate for myself.

(37:08):
And then what I also have to do is no
people are going to not be like okay with that.
We have to remember if you've never set boundaries, and
then all of a sudden you start setting boundaries with
someone and they push back, well, yeah, because they benefited
from the version of you that didn't have any and
so now when you start to show up differently, you're
going to have to grieve that people are going to leave.
But then what you also do is you get to
choose who gets to come into your life because what

(37:29):
you did with Roddy was beautiful. Hey, here's where I'm at.
And she says, okay, here's where I'm at, and you're
both going That works for me, and you're making a
choice because you're both able to make choices. And that's
the problem is when we think I don't have a choice, Well,
they didn't call me. I don't know what to do.
You're not six years old waiting for your mom or
dad to let you out of that room. You get
to choose now. That took a lot of work, That

(37:50):
took a lot of tears, that took meditation, That took
me years of having to really sit and say I'm
okay with this. And I would be lying to you
if I said that. I wake up every morning like that.
I have to advocate for myself online. You know the
Internet as well as I do. It's a terrible place
to be. And when I get trolls or attacked, I'm
the one that has to say I don't appreciate this,
get out of my ecosystem. Because if I don't stand

(38:12):
for something, I fall for everything. And if I don't
have my own back, who is going to and I
learned that the hard way in childhood, when no one
had my back, when who was there? And so now
really the way to start to advocate for yourself is
to understand where did I learn that I couldn't and
to reparent that version of us, to be able to
even close your eyes, hand on your stomach, hand and
your belly and just say I feel like I'm six

(38:32):
right now, and that's okay, that Sabrina is really scared,
but I want her to know that she has me
and that Dad's no longer here and I got rid
of him. Now, that didn't make it magically okay, But
what I did was I showed myself compassion and I
was able to close the loop in my brain that
it's safe for me to do that, and then I
deal with what comes up. And so I think, if
you want to advocate for yourself, we have to learn
where you learn that that wasn't safe, and then we
have to go back, even into meditation therapy. It doesn't

(38:54):
matter where you could do this, however you want to
do with clients. We all do it in different ways,
but we have to be able to go back to
those parts and tell these versions it wasn't you, because
what happens I don't know if you're familiar with egocentric age.
And so essentially what that saying in psychology is from
zer to seven deer to ten, depending on the school thought,
is that we are narcissistic as children.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
You have to be.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
That's how you learn, like, oh I fell, Okay, I
could get back up, but we attuned to our caregivers.
And so during that phase, if at six years old
your father keeps leaving, of course you're going, oh, it's me. Oh,
there must be something wrong, because if you didn't have
an adult to come and say, hey, they're unstable, this
isn't you. You didn't do anything wrong. Their way of
dealing with this doesn't mean anything about you who had

(39:32):
those parents, right, very few of us. Then that's where
we create these core beliefs, and then the core beliefs
become our stories, and then they become our cognitive dissonances,
and then that's how we start to move through the world.
And so it really starts with where did I learn
this from? And then what did I need them that
I have to give myself now? And that was me
having a voice and being okay that my voice is
going to hurt people, but it's also going to help people.

Speaker 2 (39:52):
Thank you for sharing that difficult examples. I hope that
helps a lot of people because just hearing how connected
they are, and of course how traumatic and difficult that
moment is, but at the same time, how much resilience
it brings and how much strength it brings in this
moment now because of your actions then and because of
your ability then, and I hope that gives everyone else

(40:16):
permission to really do that work. Doing the work isn't
all the fancy buzzwords, and it's what you just shared
so openly and so grateful for your vulnerability, because I
really believe you're giving everyone who's listening permission to do
that same work. Before we just walk into another relationship
and walk into another situation, what we don't advocate for ourselves.

(40:40):
Two years go by, we know we've been suppressing advocating
for ourselves, and then that person leaves us because we
never advocate and we never said what we wanted, and
then they left.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
Anyway, I would argue to anybody that's scared, right, what
would if they leave me? Or what if I'm alone?
It's like, but aren't you already, aren't you already alone?
If I've been in relations where I couldn't be my
authentic self, and I would cry myself to sleep because
I felt more trapped in my own body. Right, I
couldn't be myself, I couldn't be authentic. And I think
the biggest thing that I learned along the way was

(41:12):
that it's really important to thank your little because I
am so grateful that my little sab learned these coping mechanisms.
I'm not grateful she had to, but I'm grateful she
did because she did keep me safe. I'm here right now,
I'm alive, I'm breathing, I'm well. And think that's things
to her. And I think a lot of us look
at is like, I want to get rid of that part.
I don't want to look at them. That's what got

(41:32):
me into trouble. But the more we resist that, the
more it's going to persist, and then they're going to
keep coming out and saying, hey, remember me, I'm still hurting.
So if we can turn to those parts, and that's
really why a lot of people don't want to do
the work, it's really painful. It's hard to look back
and say, oh wow, yeah, that's what I went through.
And I look at photos of little me. That's like
a great way to reconnect with your little and I
cry every time I see it because I can't fathom

(41:52):
why anybody would hurt her. But what I do know
is I'm not going to hurt her ever again. And
I'm not going to let anyone get next to her.
And that includes anyone I did. That includes relationships, that
includes colleagues, that includes everything in my life. And I
know that if I do and something happens, I'm the
adult and I have my back and I will protect
her in a way that no one did.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
That's so powerful. I love hearing that, so so thankful
to hear your strength and courage through it all. It's
really inspiring. And I hope, I really hope everyone's listening
and watching right now. We know it's tough to do
the work and it you know, it's heartbreaking sometimes to
do the work, But breaking it open is far more
likely to create a breakthrough right now than avoiding it.

(42:34):
What are the signs of an emotionally unavailable person.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
Somebody who's emotionally unavailable is going to consistently booey conversations
back to shallow. So it noticed that you're interesting. I
can't seem to have any depth with them. They just
keep bringing it back to that. That's the first thing
with an emotionally an available person. The second thing they
shy away from any conversations of commitment. If you even ask,
like do you want to do something on Saturday, they
really struggle. They struggle to let you in. And so

(43:01):
that's where we say everything is shallow. There's a lot
of like mh and so really what I see is
like one of my friends is dating a guy and
it's so classic, right, they'll hook up, they have a
great night, she won't hear from him for days, and
the minute she brings anything up to him, it's just
got to go. Can't talk about this. Sorry, I don't
want to do that. I'm uncomfortable. Now. A lot of
people would look and say, well, if you wanted to
would he must just not want her bad enough. But

(43:22):
what we have to look at is capacity, because in
our brain, want and do are two different parts of
our brain. So I can want a lot of things.
I'm gonna be a millionaire. I'm not is up because
I don't want to bad enough. No, there's other things
along the way. But somebody that's emotionally an available, what
we have to look and say is it doesn't mean
they're a bad person, but what that means is that
they can only meet you as deeply as they've met themselves.
And if that person is saying emotions are scary, I

(43:45):
don't want to be vulnerable. That makes me uncomfortable, then
how do you think they're gonna hold your space? How
do you think they're going to be able to show up?
Because a lot of people look and say, oh, come,
I it's just a relationship, why won't you commit to me?

Speaker 2 (43:55):
Well, well, it.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
Comes with commitment. Commitment comes with having to be accountable
to somebody else's emotion and feelings. Were both at You're married,
I'm in a relationship. You know, being committed to somebody
is more than just you go to the movies or
you go to the park together. That's holding space, that's
learning to regulate, that's learning to co exist with somebody else.
And if somebody's not in that space. My partner he
lost a sister of three years ago before we met.

(44:17):
She took her own life, unfortunately, and he really struggled
for that year to open up to anybody because he
was in so much pain. Now is that because he
didn't want to? Absolutely not, But he was emotionally unavailable
because he couldn't hold the capacity for his own emotions,
how is he going to hold it for anybody else.
That's why they're shallow and they don't really go deep
because it feels very scary. And for a lot of

(44:38):
people that are emotionally unavailable, it doesn't really matter the
attachment style. Here's the thing that people hate. A lot
of people like to say that the avoidance are the
emotionally unavailable. And while they might be, so are the anxious.
Anxious people are also emotionally unavailable because they're not actually
understanding what's coming up for them. They're focused on the
other person. So when we outsource, then we're are we
being in touch with our own emotions? Are we able

(44:58):
to say I feel this and this is how this
impacted me? For most people, they can't. And so I
think what we have to look at is is there
a discomfort with depth, with emotionality and with going there.
That's the first step that you're going to tell And
my suggestion would be, please don't try to change them.
That is something that that person will do when they're
ready and they have the capacity to do it, But

(45:19):
you coming into their life isn't going to be what
changes it. And that's the reality.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
And I think that's almost what upsets us more sometimes
because we go, wait, they have the potential for it,
they just don't have the capacity for me. So I'm
going to be the one to open up that capacity
or if they really like me, they'll get that capacity,
And it annoys us more so. It's frustrating because when
someone just when we believe that someone just isn't that person,

(45:46):
it's okay, But when we believe they are that person,
they have the ability, but they don't have the capacity. Right,
If someone doesn't have the ability to be empathetic or understanding,
we're like, okay, they don't have the ability. But when
you're like it's a capacity issue, like oh I love
me enough, they'll have it. What do you do?

Speaker 1 (46:01):
Then you accept that they might not. And that's the reality.
If there's somebody that's growth minded and says like my
partner and I were in therapy because he is a
thousand percent in of like I want to work through this.
I don't want to be emotionally unavailable. I don't want
to be avoid and he's like, I want to be secure.
I want to show up for you as the man
you deserve. I didn't change. I didn't make him do that.
I told him from the beginning, if you don't let

(46:23):
me in, I can't continue doing this. And I set boundaries.
And that's what's important. Is if you meet somebody and
they're saying, like I had a one guy and he said, oh,
you know, I'm emotionally unavailable, and I said, yeah, so
get out of my house. I was done with him,
done because every time i'd go and say, hey, I
need to hold you accountable. You said you were going
to do this and you didn't. God, don't you have
your own life. Why are you deflecting this on to me.
You're not taking accountability for what you did.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
Now.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
I could have sat and said maybe one day, maybe
one day. I'm not betting on potential because my dad
never changed, so it makes me think these people will.
Didn't matter how much I loved my father, didn't matter
how much I showed up for him. It didn't matter
how much my mother didn't matter what she did for him.
It didn't change who he was, because that's how this work.
And so I would say, if you're dating somebody emotionally
and available who is growth minded and saying I'm willing
to do the work chef's kiss, continue on and see

(47:07):
if favor the capacity, and they might not. That's a
very real reality. They could do all this work and
you can still say, but I need more. But oftentimes
it's not that I need more than you. I need
more of you. And that's a really big discerning distinction,
because if I need more than you, I'm shit out
of luck. But if I need more of you, we
have something that we can work with if they're willing
to do the same.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
So good. Yeah, I love that. You can't love someone
into change. You can only love them as they change.
And I think that's the mix up where we think
if I love this person enough, they will change. No,
they won't. They will stay exactly the same. You can
only love them as they decide to change if they
want to, and chances are if they're not showing you.

(47:48):
And by the way, most people are telling us the truth. Yeah,
most people are already saying, like, you know what, I'm like,
you know, I'm not ready for a relationship. You know,
I don't really think that way. You know, I'm not
into this. People are already telling us, but we ignore it.
We just don't want to believe them because we secretly
are wishing, waiting, hoping that something will miraculously, or we

(48:11):
think we see a spark of it within them. We
think we see a glimpse of it within them because
they show it to us once every nighty days and
we hold onto that once every nighty days ago. But
that's who they really are.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
It's like situationships, right when everybody people in situationships, It's like,
so which one are you out of the buntry, the
one with commitment issues or the one that's insecure, because well,
how do we get into that dynamic? How do we
get into the emotionally unavailable dynamic with people? Because we're
not taking up space because one person is saying, I'm
gonna play the cool guy or girl, I'm not gonna
have any knees. I'll be the two dimensional And that's
why the nice guy and the nice girl finish last,

(48:44):
because that's all they have for me. I find it
so sexy when someone tells me no and not on
the like, just to say it. I find it really
sexy if I say I really like this and they oh,
I actually don't, right, and you're like, tell me more,
what don't you love about it? What was your experience?
How did that land on you? Versus whatever you like?
I like? And that's just not really a place that
you want to be. But I think when we're talking

(49:05):
emotionally and available to your point, people are pretty honest.
And I think I'll say this, I used to date
the emotionally unavailable people because that was my baseline. I
knew how to keep myself safe. I knew how to perform,
I knew how to try to be the fixer. I
knew how to put to project onto them all the
things that I wanted them to be. And that's why
my mama would say, what if or what is right?
What are we looking at here? Now that I'm in
a healthy relationship, I got to say, you know, when

(49:28):
someone's into you, when they like you, this person is
going to call you, They're going to have conversations. If
you come to them with something, they work with you
through it. Because it's not about like I'm not a
fan of the don't go to bed angry, go to
bed angry with a plan to talk in the morning,
because we need to have the rupture, but regulate to
have the repair. And I find that with the emotionally

(49:48):
unavailable and then with the other dynamic, because if you're secure,
you don't entertain emotionally unavailable because you know you deserve more,
and if you don't demand it, who's going to Versus
if you're insecure and you're like, this is all I
can get, there's nothing else, and you're convincing yourself and
you're translating crumbs into a meal when you deserve the
entire loaf, not just a morsel of what they're giving.
And like you said, you can't love someone into changing,

(50:09):
and that's the reality. Love isn't enough. I wish, oh boy,
I wish you. I wish all we had to do
is just love somebody. But if that was the case,
my mother would have changed my father, she did everything.
She literally would have morphed herself into a pretzel. And
he still said, you're not baked enough for me. Because
when someone just doesn't have that, nothing I do will
change that except walking away, because that's for me, and

(50:30):
I'm not a fan of walk away. No matter what
I think we're in a time where everything is I
don't like this, so leave. I don't like that you
say this. I'm going to go. You don't say what
I want, so I'm going to leave. No, no, no, no, that's
just rigidity. But what I am saying is if I'm
not seeing progress, and if I'm not seeing that this
person has any kind of depth that we can get there,
I'm not going to continue to waste my time. It
didn't work in childhood, it's not going to work now.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
And an awareness themselves without your help and to you
as well. I think that's what you're really seeing as well.
That isn't rigidity. Is Oh, I'm willing to change too.
I can see my part in this. I can see
my little trauma, a big trauma coming through. I can
see my past coming through, and I see how that
triggers that person. But then I also see I think

(51:13):
that's where we're missing, where both people have to hold
their hands up and go, I'm accountable. I remember I
came from a relationship my mom when my birthdays were
really important, and I look forward to that because my
mum always made my birthday feel really valuable. And when
I met my wife, which I only discovered afterwards, was

(51:34):
in her family, birthdays were not important. It was always
about quality time, no matter what day it was. So
we come from two totally different worlds and this sounds
like a really basic thing, but they're so hardwired. And
so when it was my birthday and she wouldn't make
a big deal out of it, I would see that
as you don't love me, And her take was like,

(51:54):
but we spent so much quality time together all the time,
why would I have to make a big deal on
your birthday? And it sounds like, again, it sounds so
so insignificant. But it took two things. One was me
recognizing that the only reason, going back to your example,
the only reason that I think my birthday is important
because that's how my mum loved me. It's not because

(52:14):
I came up with that or I really think birthdays
are that important. And at the same time for her
to realize that maybe she's never thought about whether her
birthdays are important or not, and maybe if her partner
wants it, then maybe there's some truth in that. But
she's just accepting the world she comes from. And I
think we often end up in a relationship with someone else,
only continuing to live in a world that made someone

(52:35):
else made for us. And so now you're in a
new world, living in your old world, designed by a
parent or a friend, or a sibling or a caretaker
who you didn't even question what world they were building
for you, and you're still holding onto it because it
feels so familiar.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
Your lived experiences, and everyone else's right, and that's what
you're saying, And it's funny. Birthdays mean a lot to
me for the exact opposite, because no one made them
important for me. My mom was the only thing. God
I remember. This is just to show you, like how
little things can add up. I was nine and this
was when my dad he would not buy us anything.
He used money as a means of control, and so

(53:12):
he would have his girlfriends that he had and they
would come and go, oh, your dad didn't buy you this,
and I would just cry, being like no, my father
won't give me like anything to go buy at school.
So no, he didn't buy me that. And my mom
saved up money and she took me to Ross and
she said, you can buy anything you want. And I
remember going through the aisles and making all these things

(53:33):
and then she was behind me putting things back because
she knew she couldn't afford it, but she never let
me know that. And so when we got to the
register and she bought me like a pink dress I
really wanted, and I remember when we left, she said,
just don't tell your siblings, I bought this for you.
And I didn't understand it at the time, and now
I understand what she had to go through to save

(53:53):
up money. For like two months, every time my dad
would give her a couple she would put in her
pocket because she knew I deserved something in that day.
And she took me to Ross. She spent twenty dollars
on a dress. But that made me feel like a
million bucks. And so when I met my partner and
I would say, this means a lot to me. When
he dismissed it, that was triggering for me. And to

(54:13):
your point, how is he going to know if I
don't expect him to read my mind. I don't need
him to just anticipate my needs. There's no one on
the planet that's going to do that, not even yourself.
But when I communicated that and then we talked about it.
Now every year he makes sure it's special for me,
even though he doesn't care about it. But that's part
of that is that I can meet and you can meet,

(54:33):
and we go and we talk and we converse and
we share. But what's the real root of that is
being vulnerable. And people are scared to be vulnerable because
if I'm vulnerable with you, you could reject me. And if
you reject me, that's the same wound I'm running away from.
But that's the key to a beautiful and healthy relationship
is you have to have the vulnerability to be able
to say, well, this means something to me, and can

(54:54):
I tell you why? Because how would he know if
I didn't share the story of my mom why this
means so much to me? Or to you your point,
if you didn't tell Rady about your mom, she would
have no idea and just think rise it being so dramatic.
But it's a beautiful way to let someone into your life.
And that's emotional availability. Is when somebody wants you to
understand where they're coming from, that's them trying to welcome
you in their life. Boundaries and communication don't keep them out.

(55:16):
They're actually trying to keep you in their life. And
we have to be able to read that and understand
other people's lived experience.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
So I'm so thankful that you've done so much work
because I'm just listening to you, going wow, like there's
there's so much depth in everything you're saying, and I
can see now that it comes from such a deep
lived experience. And also not letting that become your paint
brush for the future, but almost washing the paint brush

(55:44):
before you start painting. That's kind of like the feeling.
It's like if you only paint with the paintbrush that
is your past, you only have those colors to paint with,
and then it's limited. And when I'm listening to you
and thinking about my own experience as well, I'm thinking, yeah,
we're just washing that paint brush off, choosing the colors
you want to choose.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
You guys, wouldn't I would imagine you would not be
this far in your marriage if that didn't come with
tons of conversations, hard conversations. I've had conversations with Ryan
where I'm like, is this it? Like, are we did
we get to the end of the road, and you're no, no,
we didn't keep going. But it's necessary because I for me,
if we're not growing and evolving. What's the point. What

(56:21):
is the point? What's the point of both of us
having a podcast If we're not helping people grow. You
can change, you can evolve, but God Dave, you gotta
do some work and you have got to commit. What's
the difference between me, you, and anybody that's listening. The
choices we make. That is the only difference. I came
from nothing, you came from that. We both come from nothing.
No one has a silver spoon in their hands. Okay,
now go off in the world. But the choices we

(56:42):
make are what's going to change that. And you can
either have the life you want or you can live
the life you have. You get to choose, and it
is a choice. It's the same with I can't move
on from them. I they're the love of my life.
I don't know how. No, you're choosing to stay stuck
own that, and then you can because when you take
radical accountability of your life. And I had to do that. Now,
I'm not saying you take accountability of everything that happens

(57:03):
in your life. Right if someone treats you poorly, it's
not about oh there's something wrong with me, but it's
about saying, but what did I allow? Because you start
to look. I want you to look at anybody that's listening.
Look at your friends, look at your family, look at
your partners, look at everyone in your life. And if
you don't like any of them, that starts and stops
with you because you're allowing them in your life. They
didn't force their way in there. And now you get
to choose who stays.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
And it starts. Then that's a great reflection. Everyone can
do that right now and get really really clear on that. Serena,

(57:44):
do you believe in right person, wrong time?

Speaker 1 (57:46):
I don't. I think what makes someone right is that
they're in your life at the right time, Because for me,
I believe that there are people in your life that
maybe you met them at a time that didn't work
for you. But I don't believe in holding on to
people just because of timing. Now, I think timing is
incredibly important. I think timing and proximity meaning way more
than love, because if I'm not at the right place
at the right time, it's going to be hard. But

(58:08):
I don't believe in holding on to people. If they're
right for you, they'll come back organically and naturally. But
you don't need to hold on to it. And I
think when we say that, we grip on and say,
but that's the person for me, and then you miss
out on all the doors that are opening because you're
staring at the window that's that's closed.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
I'm with you on that. I don't challenge you either, right.
I just think like you can meet someone that you
like a lot at the wrong time, that isn't that's
the definition of they're not the right person. And so
it's not that you won't meet someone who's amazing or
you're in a bad point in your life or the
opposite where you're in a great point in your life
ready for the most amazing person and they're not ready,

(58:44):
and that doesn't make them the right person. And like
you said, it doesn't mean they can't be the right
person one day. But yeah, it isn't It isn't the
thing right now. But I think sometimes we tell these
things to ourselves because they make us feel special and better.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
And we love bumper stick or slogans. Our brain loves them.
That's why if they like youly know, if not, you'll
be confused. Now dating's really confusing. I don't know who
said that right dating is really weird. There's a lot
of confusion if you wanted to hear what we already
went over that same right person, wrong time, because what
happens is when you chalk people up to one hundred
and forty characters or less, you just slap a bumper
sticker and call it a day. But we are such

(59:17):
nuanced creatures, we are so complex. We can't be chalked
up to just as saying, because then that's insinuating all
of us are the same, and I'm fairly certain a
lot of us are different. And so I think what
makes somebody that they're right? If I ad met Ryan
when his sister passed, we would never have been together. Now,
that doesn't mean that in the past, like I'm sure
you and I have gone on probably dates that that

(59:37):
are not your wife, not your partner, that you're like, man,
that was amazing. That doesn't discredit the connection that you
have And that doesn't mean that your partner is not
it's a different connection. And we have to be okay
to know that you're right if this person's not for me,
and not to mention what makes us want them even
more is that usually they don't want us, because that
is going to go into I have to prove it,
let me earn it, I can get them, and we
go right back into the wounds instead of saying thank you.

(59:59):
So I'm going to move on with my life. When
I did, I held on to a guy I met
my partner four months later after I let him go
because I said, you right person, wrong time, You're just
not for me. I'm glad I didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
Yeah, talking about dating being confusing, I want to talk
about texting dating because this is your pro at this.

Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
That's my thing.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
The techniques to now seduce people or get people, but
the reality of being really clear about it. So texting
etiquette when dating. I have a few questions for you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Talk to me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
If you've only been out with someone one time, is
it okay to ghost?

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
It's not my favorite thing to ghost, but I would
say we have to depersonalize it. If you've been out
with this person once, nobody owes anything.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
I know people are going to scream and say, but
it's your time and it's this. I would love it
if you tell somebody, hey, I'm not interested. But I've
seen the other side of the coin. I've seen people
lose their marbles. I've seen people attack. I've had men
show up at my house because they somehow figured out
where I lived and were upset that I didn't want
to see them again. So I would say this, It
would be nice if you said that you don't want
to see somebody, but if it doesn't happen, don't take

(01:01:01):
it personal. Welcome to dating.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Okay. They tell you they don't like texting during the
day because they're busy at work, but you still get
anxious when you don't hear from them. How does someone
push through that?

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Oh, that that's our nervous system. That has nothing to
do with them. That person clearly communicated they told you
they don't want to text. They let you know that
they have a life and they're doing other things, and
not everybody. I'm so tired of the saying we all
have our phone in our hands. It takes ten seconds.
First of all, it's never just one text. Second. Of all,
that requires bandwidth. I could be on social media scrolling
and watching dog videos, which I love to do all day,

(01:01:34):
and I have twenty five text messages. I don't have
the bandwidth. I will deal with you later. That's not
and that doesn't mean that I'm not interested in you.
That doesn't mean I don't like you. But what happens
is we go into black and white thinking if they
do this, it's good. If they do this, it's bad.
And what we're trying to do is understand the gray.
I think, if you're getting anxious because somebody hasn't text
you back, we need to look at the state and
the story that you're in as opposed to that they're

(01:01:54):
the problem, because how else are they showing up?

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
Great? Take? Okay, I like this one. You're always here's
the one starting the conversation. Is that a sign you
care more? Or just different communication stars?

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
That might be a sign that you're not giving them
space to step in. I've seen that often. Now, if
you give the space and you don't hear from this person,
you have your answer right there. You were carrying this along.
But oftentimes I've had plenty of men contact me and say,
this girl texts me every single morning. I don't even
get a chance to reach out to her. Distance creates desire.
It's okay to let that go for a day, and
if you can't sit still, that's what we need to

(01:02:27):
work on, not the texting etiquette.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Someone says they're a bad text Does someone's texting behavior
actually indicate their interest.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
In you to a certain extent? I think if we
see where it starts to show is when they come
in at one hundred. My mom always says, where else
are you going to go? When they come in texting
every day, calling you all the time, super super, super communicative,
and then you get the crickets and the go well,
then yes there's a shift in behavior. Something is up.
But intrinsically, instinctually, is their texting behavior and gauge of

(01:02:55):
their interest. Absolutely not. My partner texts me every other
day just to confirm or hey, help you have a
great day, talk to you later. We did not engage.
We're three years later and here we are. I don't
need to text him every day because we have a
beautiful relationship. So we need to start to look at
what else is there? And if all you have is texting,
you don't have a relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
Yeah. My wife never messages me, does she to this day?
I have to call her. She's a call person. If
I call her, she'll pick up immediately say with her.
She's happy to talk. If I text her, I'll be
waiting for hours and hours and hours, and I'm just
aware of that at this point, and she's like, yeah,
just call me. She goes, I'll pick up the phone.
If I see her name, I'll pick up the phone.
But if you're messaging me, she's the same, She's like,

(01:03:34):
and it's so funny. She sent me a screenshot of
some conversations she was having the other day and I said,
it's this seven hundred and thirty three hundred messages for me,
Like I was like, I just noticed that at the
top and I was cracking out and she was cracking up.
But it's just it's just yeah, it's like, that's how
she likes to get and she's told me that many times. Now,
I like texting because I don't have time for a call,

(01:03:54):
so I'm the one trying to do that. But then
I'm like, but no, she's told me how to get
through to it, and she does. She picks up every
single tomic coil it no matter where she is, what
time it is, wherever it is, she will pick up Yeah,
and it's yeah, so I can agree more.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Where we have The issue is the story and the
narrative that's being created right otherwise there's no issue. But
we've put texting is a dopamine addiction fuel, the same
as a slot machine. We're waiting, so dopamine is released
in anticipation of not when you get the reward. That's
why waiting for the text. Where is it? Where is it?
Where is it? And we're like feeding for a fix
because that's a drug versus then when you get it,

(01:04:27):
you get the serotonin bump, but then you need more
because then there's another text, and they wait it and
we start to get hypervigilant. They put ten seconds, what
they put a period. They didn't put a smiley face.
We try to decode and at the end of the
day we're disconnecting. We're not actually connecting because, like you said,
pick up the phone and have a conversation and if
the person goes, what do you talking about it, I'm
literally on the subway, dude. I couldn't text you a
I created a narrative that's on me versus Hey, thanks

(01:04:49):
for calling. Actually there is something I'd like to talk
to you about. And you're like, okay, yeah, I said something.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
Yeah, absolutely, and we observe it wrong, like I think
sometimes and I talked about it. By the way, this
works with colleagues and teams too. Sometimes of teams going
through an email exchange with someone and I'm like, I
just pick up the phone and just close it, like
I promise you will get done so much quicker. Ye.
And I've realized that with not just riding with other
people on my team, where I'm like and I'm like
this sumtips. I don't like making big decisions over a

(01:05:16):
text message because I feel like it's over committing without context,
and so I'd rather pick up the phone and say, hey,
this is these are the three things I'm thinking about.
What are you thinking? Oh, these are three things I'm think. Okay,
let's make this decision together, and it feels more real,
whereas saying yes or no one a text it just
feels like high pressure to me because I feel like
I'm not giving any context of whether I want to
do that or not.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
Text has no tone. We create, so especially in dating, well,
if we're gonna even talk, you don't know this person,
you match with them on a n app, you are creating
their tonality. You are creating how they say it, what
they say, and oftentimes we do that and how we
would do it So if someone text, you're like, oh
Y has time? My day is versus the guys just
send out an automated text to thirty women that morning

(01:05:58):
and we create this whole fantasy basis on a screen,
and then we wonder why we're so upset.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
Yeah, yeah, that was so good. Definitely all right, And
now I've got some scenario based questions. So if someone
says they don't want anything serious but keep treating you
like a partner, what's really going on?

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
That's why I hate actions speak loud on the words.
That's the epitome that they don't, because what that person
is saying is I told you I don't want a relationship,
You're still giving me access, so I'm going to take
what I have. You have to tell them that you're
not willing to allow that, otherwise they will keep taking it.
Why wouldn't they?

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
Well said, I like it all right. You've been in
countless situationships, none lasting longer than a couple months, and
have yet to move into a serious, committed relationship. What
could be happening?

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
You're not using your voice if you're in countless situationships
and you're acknowledging that you're in situationships. You're not communicating,
because what is the situationship. It's a relationship without boundaries,
without clear communication, and without asking for your needs to
be mad. Start asking for your needs to be it,
start taking up space, and then you'll start to see
your relationships change.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
Okay, you went on a date that felt amazing, everything aligned,
They said, let's do this again soon, and then silence.
What's going on there?

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
It's entirely possible that in the moment they did like you,
and then they went home and went, actually, you know,
and like, I will to say it as if I
haven't done it. I've done that, I've been out on
the date, going this person's great. Then you go home
going wait a minute, did he actually say what I
thought he said? Are No, I'm actually don't really like this,
and you just decide that's why we're dating. And I
think what I'm seeing now, really big, is that we

(01:07:24):
want certainty. I need to know that before I've gone
out with you, that you want to date, meet, you
want to be in a relationship, you want to get married.
Because we don't trust ourselves. If you trust yourself that
no matter what, you'll be Okay, you'll ask the right questions,
you'll vet them properly and you'll decide if this works
for you. That's what we need to focus on.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
Got it Okay? You went on a date with someone
who is perfect on paper, but there's zero spark. Is
there such a thing as the spark? And should you
give it another chance?

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
I would have to argue and say, what are you
looking for? Because if you're chasing a feeling, you can't
be surprised when you don't find it. When you're chasing
something that is just momentary, then you're left with a
human after And so if they're perfect on paper, then
I think what we need to look and say is
what are you actually looking for and what is it
that Because that's a cognitive dissonance. I say I want this,
and then these are the people that I date. There's
a disconnect. So then I would say, well, then you're

(01:08:09):
chasing a feeling because the spark, as we spoke about earlier,
is usually your nervous system trying to tell you to
run and sending blood to your falangy so you could
get out of there. But they're attractive. If you don't
have the spark, that doesn't mean it's bad. What I
would look at is are you interested in topics that
they talk about? Do you like what they have to say?
Are you intrigued and interested in talking to them? If
that's the answer, doesn't matter about the spark. You don't

(01:08:30):
like the person. And that's the differential.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
They keep saying, I'm just not good at relationships. Should
you take that as honesty or a red flag? Both?

Speaker 1 (01:08:38):
It is an honest red flag. If somebody is openly
telling you I'm not good at relationships. My next question
would say what does that mean? And I would say, no,
thank you, because I am.

Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
It's so interesting as well that I feel like, I
think we all want to feel safe, but it's also
making space for others to feel safe enough to be
themselves exactly. And a lot of the time, I think
in the guys of trying to keep ourselves safe, we
actually make the other person feel very unsafe because we're like,
I don't like when someone does this, I don't like
it when someone does that, I don't enjoy this, I

(01:09:10):
don't want this. And then that person goes, Okay, well,
I'm not going to do any of those things now,
because if I tell you that, then you're gonna because
you haven't given me the opportunity for us to get
to know each other, to even deal with that level
of space. Does that make sense? It's like it's like
I don't even have the space to tell you that
I'm struggling with X, Y, and Z, because you've just
told me that you want someone who's already done the work,
who already does therapy, who's healed. Who's this? And someone's

(01:09:32):
like what I was about to tell you that I'm
like dealing with you know, this challenge over here and
I'm in therapy for it, or I've been seeking a
therapist and now they're just scared to tell you and
they're like, yeah, okay, cool, got it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
Oh I see it all the time of like I
want a healed person, no more unhealed who first of all,
who is ever healed? I know there is a journey
for life. If this is it for me, this is boring,
right Like if this is it, if I reached my
peak for me too, that's it, right, Like I'd love more.
But we have to stop looking at myopically of either
healed or un We're looking for growth minded because if

(01:10:02):
somebody is saying I want to do the work, I
want to invest, I just need help. Great, then we
can support each other through that. But if somebody isn't
going to at least take accountability and ownership of their
part in the dynamic and some mood point.

Speaker 2 (01:10:13):
Yeah, okay, a few more scenarios. Let's go. You're in
the gray area, not officially dating, but not casually there.
How do you have the what are we? Conversation?

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
You don't ask somebody what it is that you are.
You tell them what you want, you see if it aligns. So,
if you're in the gray area, you say, hey, i'd
love to share something with you. I don't know what's
happening here. I really like you. I'd love to delete
the apps and just focus on you, but I wanted
to see how are you feeling about that. Most people
won't do that because they're scared of the answer. But
if you genuinely want to know, you got to ask.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
I love the idea of everything in life, of going
into it with clearly what you want from it, and
then you're so it's so easy to figure out where
the other person lands, whereas you're like, hey, let's kind
of figure out where this is going and what you
want and they're like, yeah, well what are you thinking?
Like I like the way it is right now, and
your point's like, oh well I don't. But then you
don't know what to offer and what to say, and

(01:11:00):
then you get suck there. Go oh I like it too,
I'll go with the flow. Yeah it works for me.
It's in every area of life.

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
Yeah, go with the flow is the worst dating advice. Yes,
where's the flow going? Is there an end game? Like
do we have snacks on the way?

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):
Like?

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Where are we going? Because there is no endgame? And
so I need clarity, not the fluidity, because when people
say they're going with the flow, what they're really saying
is like, I'm not going to commit.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
Yeah, okay, you were dating someone. This has happened too
many people. I know you were dating someone who said
they weren't ready, and six months later they're in a
full relationship with someone else. How do you stop internalizing
that I wasn't enough.

Speaker 1 (01:11:34):
That's projection, because then what's happening is we're putting our
core beliefs. What we have to look and say is
maybe they found a partner that was better suited for them.
Maybe that person didn't trigger the nervous system. Maybe that
person was a safer experience. Maybe you were really like
their dad growing up and that just made them and
rubbed them the wrong way. Maybe you guys had completely
opposing political beliefs. What we have to do is we
have to look and say, what are the facts? Because

(01:11:55):
if I say I wasn't enough, I'm not good enough,
I could all but guarantee if I talked to the
other person, they would say, oh, this is nothing to
do with that. It's X, Y, and Z. So what
I do is what are the facts to back this
thought up? And if I don't have any, okay, then
where did I learn this from? Because if it's my insecurity,
that's what's really coming up. It has nothing to do
with them.

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
Yeah, your state story strategy piece applies to all of this,
because yeah, we start going so even if we look
for the facts, and most people can't think of facts
because the hard part about relationships is that everything's so subjective.
So you just go to, oh, maybe if I didn't
ask for so much, Maybe if I wasn't always needing
so much. Maybe if I didn't always then then they'd

(01:12:33):
still be here. And what you're really just saying is
I'm not comfortable with what my actual needs are because
you asked for them in the past because you believed
you deserve them, and now you're questioning whether you deserve
them again, And so it's coming from a place of
you feeling you don't deserve those things, when the reality is,
even if you got back with them, you'd still want
those things in three months time, nothing change. Even if

(01:12:53):
you got them back, nothing changed.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
Nothing changed. But it's really important when we're talking about this.
That's why it's like, if you're scared to add ask
for your needs to be met and have this conversation,
then what we're seeing is that person probably doesn't have
the bandwidth to begin with, and maybe they do when
they just haven't had the conversation with them. But if
we're going to look back and say they have something
I don't, well, then all we're doing is we're projecting
our insecurities. So that has nothing to do with the person.
It has everything to do with the story that you

(01:13:15):
created about why they didn't want you. The good news
is you can control that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:36):
You've brought a bandwidth so many times in this conversation
and capacity, and I think it's such an interesting point
because our black and white thinking goes to, if they
don't want to do this for me, that means they
don't love me enough or don't care about me enough.
And what you're saying is someone could care, or could love,
or could have certain feelings, but they may not have

(01:13:56):
the bandwidth, whether that's emotional capacity or time, more energy,
or whatever it may be. But on mind goes to, well, no,
that's a sign that you don't love me, because the
right person would have the bandwidth, which in effect is true.
The right person will have the bandwidth.

Speaker 1 (01:14:11):
The right person will for sure, but it doesn't mean
that they don't care about you. And that's the nuance.
I think what I really learned what healing was Healing
doesn't mean you get rid of the emotions. Healing doesn't
mean that you just never feel sad or anxious or anything.
What it means is that you learn to live with it.
You expand that window of tolerance so you have the
capacity to handle it. So it's not every single time
there's an inconvenience you're getting either you're freaking out or
you're crying or you're shutting down. It's like, okay, well,

(01:14:32):
then that we don't have the emotional capacity to be
able to hold things. But that's also part of holding
two conflicting thoughts. I can miss someone and also know
they're not right for me. I can think you're amazing
and also say this isn't the right relationship for me.
I can say that you're limited and also say, but
I think that we can make it through. If we
can hold the two conflicting thoughts, then what we're actually
doing is we're turning our prefrontal cortex on. And oftentimes

(01:14:53):
in dating, when we go from X equals Y equals z,
that's because your brain is trying to actually close the
loop by a shortcut. And it's like, I love neuroscience.
I think it's fascinating. The more we repeat something, the
deeper those neural pathways become. And I found out something fascinating.
It takes three hundred repetitions for your body to remember
a moove, So I need to do squats three hundred

(01:15:13):
times for my body to go, Okay, this.

Speaker 2 (01:15:14):
Is what I have to do.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
It takes three thousand repetitions to create a new neural
pathway that you would go down organically.

Speaker 2 (01:15:21):
Why I didn't know that that's a lot. That's cool.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
So let this be two nine hundred and ninety nine
left to go of I deserve, I'm worthy. I believe
in myself even if you don't. But we got to
start somewhere by creating these new neural pathways to be
able to hold that space and capacity. Otherwise you're just
going to keep going. This means this and that myopic
black and white. The other fun fact I learned.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
That's so good.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
I love neuroscience. The other fun fact I learned is
when we get triggered and just regulated, you're amygdala, it
takes about ten milliseconds to turn on. It's almost instant.
Your prefrontal cortex takes ten times longer, so two hundred
and thirty five milliseconds to turn on into the second.
That's why people will go straight. They don't like me,
they don't want me. They don't do this to your point.
For us to turn the prefrontal cortex on and go,

(01:16:05):
what are my facts? Can I challenge this? That requires
a lot of work, so most people go no energy,
save this happened. This means this. Your brain is a
predictive machine. It wants to keep you safe. It's not
trying to help you grow we have to rink the system.

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
Yeah, wow, I love this. I've never had either of
those and that's so helpful, and only a need to
practice more repetition. And it's interesting you said that. It's
you said you need three thousand neural repetitions, and I
was thinking three thousand means if you did something once
a day per year, that would take ten years to change.
And that's why it makes sense that so many real

(01:16:39):
changes take so much longer than like thirty days and
ninety days. And it's like, unless unless you were saying
it to yourself a thousand times a day, which is right, unlikely, and.

Speaker 1 (01:16:48):
It's unlikely you'll believe it because your nervous system is
like you're gaslighting me. That's not real. So we have
to push through that. Like it's very uncomfortable doing the work.
That's why most people don't want to do it. But
if you're here, because you are, just know that there
are a people that are, you don't need to have
the you don't need to have the bandwidthin capacity if
somebody isn't.

Speaker 2 (01:17:05):
Yeah, yeah, all right, last scenario before we do a
little rapid fire. So the last scenario is you're dating
someone who avoids conflict or shuts down when things get tough.
How do you determine whether that's workable or a long
term incompatibility.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
It's having the conversation with them of what are they
going to do about it? That's a really reality because
if somebody is consistently shutting down, they don't have that
there's their rupture, but there's no repair. Well, then we
have to say, in first ball and seat, do they
take accountability of that? Are they trying to do anything
about that? Or are they saying, well, that's who I
am and this is it? Because you can absolutely work
through that. Maybe they didn't. Maybe they learned it in childhood.

(01:17:41):
That confrontation means that they're bad until they shut down,
and maybe that means that. So that means that they
need to go to therapy. They need to understand what
came up for them. They have to learn how to
be present. I think what we need to learn is
we have to look and see if I show up
as me, how are they showing up as them? And
does that work for me? Because for a lot of people,
they're used to being abandoned, to having people go, well,
you don't do what I want and I'm out, But

(01:18:02):
maybe they're not used to someone that says, well, I'm
here by your side, and if you're willing to do
the work, I'll walk the journey with you. And I
think that's a really beautiful place to be in growth
and expansion. But two people have to be doing that.
And if one person is going to gaslight, deflect, shut down,
walk out, do this and go well, no, I'm not
going to talk about it, I don't know what you're
hoping is going to change.

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
Yeah, it's so interesting how we just forget the word
mutual like it exists for a reason. It's like all
good relationships are mutual. We have mutual understanding, we have
mutual respect, we have mutual awareness. The word mutual makes
everything so simple. And whenever I'm trying to figure out
whether I should invest in a relationship with someone or

(01:18:41):
engage with it or where we stand, it's just whether
it's mutual or not, and that over time is much
more evident. Clearly it may not be in the beginning
for sure, but over time you get really clear on
whether there's a mutual level of desire to invest and
connect and build.

Speaker 1 (01:18:58):
That's why as you do the work, circle a bit
smaller because you start to realize you're here because I benefit,
You're here because you need something, You're here because you're bored.
You're here for whatever the reasons are. And that's why
grief is so large, because if I don't grieve the
ending of things, then I'm not going to people to
also create new If we just constantly try to hold
onto somebody all of our lives and say I'm only

(01:19:18):
okay if I have them, you're never going to actually
be able to grow anything else because you're keeping just
that plot of land. And even if the flowers are dying.
I always use the example if a house burns down,
you can't rebuild it with the ashes. You have to
be the phoenix that rises and rebuild it with something
more solid and more concrete. And it's okay to let
it come crashing down.

Speaker 2 (01:19:36):
You get to choose, Sabrina, we're going to end with
this rapid fire. So these have to be answered in
one sentence. Maximum. These are a list of some popular cliches.
Some of it you've mentioned already, but we do them
again some of them, and so I want your first
response and take to these. Do you believe if he
wanted to, he would.

Speaker 1 (01:19:54):
Got I hate that saying it is my epic. It
is not understanding human relationships and it is keeping people
single longer than they need to be, want and do
or two different parts of the brain instead of projecting
onto them. Because I'll say this, if you wanted to,
you would will move on and you're not. So it
takes two.

Speaker 2 (01:20:11):
Okay, second cliche, So do you agree with there's no
good men out there?

Speaker 1 (01:20:17):
That is the salience network at play, and the salience network.
If I went outside and looked for a green car,
all I'm going to see is that if you don't
believe that there are good men, then I could say
there's also not good women or not good things. There
are amazing people, but if you're not finding them, then
we need to start to change the state, the story
and the strategy so that you can have different people
enter your life and you can allow different people in
your life.

Speaker 2 (01:20:36):
I agree, one hundred percent agree. The frequency illusion is
one of my favorite ideas and how the brain works,
and it's fascinating to me how we think. It's positive
and negative thinking and it's just noticing. It's just the
ability to notice. And if you only think there's bad
men out there. You will notice every bad guy out there,
and you will forget because your brain has selective attention

(01:20:58):
and can only focus on a few things at the
same time, and it will ignore the person who opened
the door, It will ignore the person who said thank you,
and ignore the person who smiled because you're focused on
all the bad guys out there or bad people. Okay,
agree or disagree when you know you know.

Speaker 1 (01:21:15):
I will disagree. And the only reason I say that
is I think for some people one hundred percent when
they know, and for other people it's a bit longer
for a journey because some people need time to open
up and it might take a minute for you to
be able to explore that. But I think when you
know that you don't want that, please listen to that.
When you know that you do, please listen to it.
But I don't necessarily think everyone has the same journey.

Speaker 2 (01:21:33):
Agree or disagree. Once a cheeta, always a cheat.

Speaker 1 (01:21:35):
To completely disagree, I think people can grow and evolve.
I think once a cheater, if you don't take accountability,
you will continue to cheat because we need to understand
what led you to do that to begin with.

Speaker 2 (01:21:44):
Yeah, and I think so much of that is also
you as the individual. Like, if you believe that someone's
a cheata and will always be a cheata and you
can't get over that, then that relationship naturally will't work.
And you're fully entitled to that because you've been through it,
and you've been through the pain and the hurt, and
so you don't need to lie to yourself. I think
that's the problem with that. That's where that becomes a challenge,

(01:22:05):
where you start saying to yourself, that's how I really feel, like,
I don't think i'll ever trust this person again, but
I think the right thing to do is give them
another chance. And then that gets complicated.

Speaker 1 (01:22:15):
If you're going to give somebody another chance after they
cheated on you, you have got to make the commitment
that you're going to move on, because it's not fear
to hold it over their head every time they do
something you don't believe them. You're checking their phone, you're
seeing where their location is. If you don't have trust
in your relationship, and that's okay. If they broke that trust,
you don't have to give it back. But if you're
making the choice to stay in the commitment, then please

(01:22:36):
make the choice together that you're staying in the commitment.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
Yeah, And I think that's the challenge for that person
because you're so conflicted. It's so hard to go through
in fidelity because you're thinking, well, I do love them,
and I do believe them, and I know who they are,
and then at the same time there's this massive, you know,
lack of loyalty and you know, a breaking of your

(01:22:58):
trust and everything else that it's it's hard to recommit.
But yes, you're right if you are going to then
go all in. Agree or disagree. Men are intimidated by
strong women.

Speaker 1 (01:23:08):
I will disagree. I think there are some men that are,
and then there are men like my partner that find
strong women to be sexy because he was raised by them.
So I think we need to stop keeping it as
if everybody is one thing and start to understand that
one person's lived experience is not everybody else's.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
M h okay, A couple more agree or disagree. If
it's not a hell yes, it's a no again.

Speaker 1 (01:23:29):
I disagree because it's back to it has to be
good or this. I'll be honest. It took me six
months to be a yes with my partner, and he
was a hell yes, month one, It's okay to take time.
What I will say is if it doesn't get to
a hell yes, then please take it as a now.

Speaker 2 (01:23:43):
Okay, agree or disagree. You'll meet someone when you stop.

Speaker 1 (01:23:46):
Looking that I actually agree. And here's what I mean
by that interest.

Speaker 2 (01:23:49):
I don't think you were going to go there all right?

Speaker 1 (01:23:51):
No, No, let me tell you why. The reason I
think it'll happen it's not when it happens when you
least expect it. It happens when you release control to
the outcome and you surrender. That's when I believe it
will when you least expect it is kind of saying, oh,
I was at the grocery store. There they were. I
don't think it's that accidental. But I do believe that
when you control, release control of the outcome, and you
show up saying well, if this works out, cool and

(01:24:12):
if not not, you have a higher propensity for it
to work out because you're not trying to make something
it's not. And that's to me, the biggest difference. When
I see people, one person that's moved on after a
breakup and the other one's stuck on it, it's because
the person that's moved on, has acknowledged what it was,
and they're not trying to create something it wasn't versus
the other person that's holding onto this fantasy and narrative
that very clearly didn't exist. So I think there's nuance

(01:24:34):
to it. But I do believe that when you release
control and say hey, if I'm gonna go out and
if it doesn't work out, that's okay, that more than
when you least expect it, because then that means you're
not being intentional and you're not putting in the energy.

Speaker 2 (01:24:44):
That's a great recalibration. Because I was going to challenge
you on that, but your recalibration is effective, and I
agree with that version of it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:53):
These nuts.

Speaker 2 (01:24:54):
Yeah, the nuance, The nuance works because yeah, when I
hear you'll meet someone, you stop looking, I'm like, all right, well,
if you stop looking, then you're never going to meet someone.
But your point of let me actually go out there,
be myself, not put pressure on this, allow it to
be what it is that potentially is going to be
better for you and reveal more of that person than yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:25:16):
Especially when you go out, like I remember my days,
you go out to a club or club Hulu. What
am I twenty? You go out to something and you're
the whole place. You're turning every stone. Are they single?
Are they single? Are they single? That's the pressure that
we got to release, so the least expected. You know
what I'm saying, But it's more about if I can
go out and just enjoy and be present. You never
know who you'll meet, and it might not be obvious.

(01:25:37):
It could be I meant you who has a cousin
who has a brother who's single, and somehow we connected,
or you posted a friend in that person. That's what
happened to my friend. Our friend posted a guy saying
he's single and never been together for two years. It
happens when we release that control and we say I'm
showing up for me and I'm excited to see who.

Speaker 2 (01:25:53):
Else is here? Yes? All right? Last one? I agree
or disagree. It should feel effortless with the right person.

Speaker 1 (01:25:59):
Wildly disagree. And what I stand is this, it shouldn't
be a fight, but what doesn't take work. That's like
saying starting a business should be effortless and just flow.
You have so many issues. What I want to see
is is there a flow? And are we going somewhere
as opposed to it should be effortless. And I think
what happens is we lie to people by telling them
that relationships should be easy and there should be no issues.

(01:26:21):
Relationships are not easy. They take a lot of work,
but they're also rewarding. And I look at as a
bank account. Am I in the green grate keep going?
If I'm in the red, my needs aren't mad, I'm
constantly depleted. This isn't going anywhere. Well, then that's the issue.
It's not that it should be easy, Sabrina.

Speaker 2 (01:26:36):
Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you
wish I did, or anything that you wanted to share
that I didn't give you an opportunity.

Speaker 1 (01:26:43):
To No, I think you did a pretty dang good job.
I think just at the end of the day, for
anybody that's listening, the main message here is not that
you're never going to find anybody, or that you're never
going to be happy, or it's going to take all
of this work. But it's really about when you come
back home to yourself, then you can show up differently.
And the world needs more light and we have so
many people. Everyone's trying to dim somebody else's or turn

(01:27:04):
someone else's on. But I need to make sure that
my light is shining as bright as it can so
that I can welcome everybody in so that they also
feel seen. And I really hope that people could do that,
to step into their power to know who they are
and how amazing they are as a human being, and
that anybody would be lucky to have the opportunity with them.
And if you don't believe that, go back to square
one and let's work on where you learn that from.

Speaker 2 (01:27:26):
So Brina, I'm going to personally send this episode to
so many people. I usually put out on Instagram and
YouTube and social media, but there's very few times where
I'm like, this is the episode I'm going to be
setting to so many people in my life because I
think you're spot on with so many of these things.
I feel like you speak to in a way that
really goes to the root of what people are really
struggling with and what's beneath all of this. And I genuinely, genuinely,

(01:27:49):
genuinely appreciate your own vulnerability with your own story and background,
because I do believe that people have avoided that or
their memory is protect them from some of those things.
Not realizing how much it's tripping them up today, and
you going there gives them permission to go there. And
so everyone has been listening and watching, whether you're walking

(01:28:10):
your dog, whether you're cooking, whether you're driving to or
from work. Please share this episode with a friend who's
struggling with dating, who's maybe just been broken up with,
or maybe he's just trying to figure out this confusing landscape,
and share on TikTok and Instagram what resonated with you?
Tag both me and Sabrina. We'd love to see what
really connected with you. I love knowing what each and

(01:28:31):
every one of you take away from these episodes. And
if you don't already follow Sabrina, make sure you follow
her across social media. I'll be tagging on all my platforms.
Thank you for listening and watching, Sabrina. Thank you so
much for all your insight, wisdom and work. And I
can't wait to have you back on the show.

Speaker 1 (01:28:44):
Thank you, Jay.

Speaker 2 (01:28:45):
Likewise, thank you. If you love this episode, you're going
to love my conversation with Matthew Hussey on how to
get over your ex and find true love in your relationships.

Speaker 3 (01:28:56):
People should be compassionate to themselves that extend that compassion
to your future self, because truly extending your compassion to
your future self is doing something that gives him or
her a shot at a happy and a peaceful life.

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Host

Jay Shetty

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