NOAH KAHAN: Imposter Syndrome, Anxiety & The Pressure of Success (What He’s Never Shared Before)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's easy to look at somebody and be like, your
life must be so sick. Man, you have no clue
talking about the mental illness stuff. It used to be
this thing that I was ashamed of. I'm just now
trying to unwind this idea that I have to be
unhealthy physically or in pain in some emotional way in
my life to create good music. If someone says that

(00:21):
I did a good job, I'm like, yeah, I'm good.
Someone says that I suck, I'm like, guys, suck. Getting
to talk about this is not common for me. Right now,
I need it more than ever.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you
come to become a happier, healthier and more healed Today.
On on Purpose, I'm joined by singer songwriter Noah Khan.
Noah's highly anticipated new album, The Great Divide is out
April twenty fourth, alongside his brand new Netflix documentary noahkhn
Out of Body, out April thirteenth. Please welcome to On Purpose,

(00:56):
Noah Khan. Noah, it's great to finally meet you.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Thank you for having me. I'm a huge fan and
this is awesome, so thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
I have to say I'm a huge fan, thank you
for sending your documentary in advance. I was I'm actually
really looking forward to people seeing it because it was
so real, It was so vulnerable, super real. I felt
like I got to know you before I got to
know you today, and then when we're sitting down before
the interview today, I'm like, oh wait, this is I
feel like I've already got very familiar with you.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
It's so weird, like to know it's going to be
out in the world. Like it was almost like I
was able to compartmentalize the process of making it with
like not thinking about anyone seeing it, so that I
was able to kind of be more myself interesting. And
then a lot of ways it was like really therapeutic
to film and to watch back. It's like a very
heavy experience, like watching yourself and getting to see your family.

(01:43):
But like my family and I were talking, were like,
we're actually so lucky that we got to be a
part of this, because how rare is it to get
to see how you all interact with each other in
a natural way, and like how you can kind of
take into perspective like what it would look like from
an outside angle, and like watching it back, I think
my whole family was like we are really good to
each other, and like we all are funny and love
each other, and so it was a really amazing like

(02:04):
ability like chance to see who we are and through
the eyes of someone else and through the artistic lens
of like a director and and hopefully soon the audience,
which is it's just a special thing. So I appreciate
you watching it. It's like my first time talking about
it right now, so I'm still like learning how to
talk about it and learning how to like express my

(02:26):
feelings on it because I'm still kind of finding out
what they are. But ultimately, like, I just hope that
people that watch it feel connected to their families, to
their lives, to their own insecurities through you know, me
talking about mine. And it was hard and was scary,
but I think ultimately like those are the things that
move people and can make people take stock of who

(02:48):
they are. So making it, there was moments where I
was like should I talk about this? Should I say this?
Like should I really say what I'm feelings? I have
this like hyper active ability to like know how it's
going to be perceived and just trying to put away
like my concerns about how people would perceive me and
just try to be myself was like a fun challenge
and I think helped me in like my own life. Now.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, well, I really hope this conversation is as much
a discovery and exploration for you as it is for us.
And yeah, so then I hope that I hope that
it helps you in the journey of what you're trying
to do in the mission and the purpose that's behind it.
We see so much of your childhood in it. You
talk about it, like, what's a childhood memory that stands
out to you that still defines who you are today.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
My dad and I in the documentary play father and
Son at the end, which is like the first song
I learned to sing and one of the first songs
I learned to play guitar on with my dad, And
so I think playing that song at this senior citizens
home in Hannover was like really defining because it was
like my first time performing and it was my first
time realizing that like I wasn't as good as I

(03:47):
thought I was. I think I thought it was really good,
and then I went and did that performance, I'm like, oh,
like this is really hard. And also like the song
itself was about like a lot of it's about like
aging and kind of like the discrepancy between youth and
and people that are getting old, and like the youth
feeling like old people don't understand and we're literally doing
it in an old folks like these people are probably, Yeah,
the dad character is way more correct in the song character.

(04:08):
But that was like a defining moment for me, and
also the only time my dad and I've ever performed
like for anyone besides our family until we did the documentary.
So I always remember that like a really special moment
in my childhood.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
That is special, that's sooner special. What were you like
as a kid, Like, how would you describe yourself growing up?

Speaker 1 (04:23):
I was one of four, like kind of like middle child,
Like it's my older brother, my older sister than me,
and my younger brother. So I was kind of like
in my own world a little bit. I think, very creative,
very like aspirational to do something creative with my life,
even from a very young age, but also like very distracted, distracting,
just kind of trying to be heard, even just around

(04:45):
the dinner table or in school, just like trying to
make my voice the loudest one to get like a
chance to say what I had to say, And.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
What was your method? Just raising your woe, just yelling and.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
Like, yeah, just being like an asshole basically, I think,
but just trying to be heard and trying to like
get the attention that I wanted, just kind of be
in the middle and trying to just have my voice
the one that people can hear. I was not a
great student. I love, I think I was pretty smart,
but didn't really care much for school because I always
always always wanted to be a musician, and truly like

(05:13):
every year of school for me felt like just one
more year of me not getting to go be a singer.
So I was just looking forward to being done with
school and going to write songs and going to play
music and going to do open mic. So very like
I don't know, kind of just like itching and a
little anxious to get out as a kid from whatever
situation wasn't like gonna achieve my dreams.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
What do you think your vision was for life? If
if this hadn't happened, like this incredible success and journey
that you're on right now, Like, what did you envision?

Speaker 1 (05:41):
I literally never ever thought about it like I've never
thought about anything else besides being a musician. In sixth grade,
you wrote a letter to yourself that you would open
when you graduate high school, and like my letter.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Was just that's a great exercise.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, it was actually really cool and like kind of
sets you up for like sadness a lot of ways, like, oh, man,
I haven't done any of that shit. But for me,
it was like, I want to have a record deal
by the time I graduate high school, and I want
to make It was basically like you'd better still be
making music. You better still be like writing and like
thinking about music. And when I graduate high school, I
had a record deal and I opened up the letter.

(06:14):
I'm like, this is cool. I think I made my
child with itself pretty proud there. And so I remember
writing that and actually, like throughout high school, I was
like thinking about, like, man, I gotta get that record
dealer sixth grade. Noah was going to beat me up,
but yeah, that was always my life plan. I think
if people do ask me all the time about what
I would do if I wasn't and music, but it's
always with the context of already being in music. I
think music is so my job feels so me focused

(06:37):
all the time, and like so centered on who I
am and marketing me and marketing my vulnerability and whatever.
And so I think just something that would be focused
on other people and focused on like helping other people
and extending myself to help others spotlight themselves. Just something
that wasn't so Noah all the time.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean you've talked about
how like writing as a teenager was an outlet for
feeling different and your anxiety. Like what was that feeling
different than that music was an outlet for and what
was the anxiety back then?

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yeah, it was interesting, said, I was always trying to
fit in and always and like had lots of friends,
and but I always kind of felt like I was
hiding this part of myself that was like really vulnerable
and sad and going through a lot of like mental
health stuff, even at a really early age. And I
think that created this like disconnect in my life where
like I was going to school or hanging out with

(07:30):
my friends and like really putting on to be who
I thought would be like accepted, and then going home
and feeling like really just disconnected from like this presentation
of myself all the time, and so writing music was
like my own special little thing, And for a long
time I really missed that too, Like when it was
just my special, my special little buddy, you know, just
going home and writing a song and like having this

(07:52):
other like Hannah Montana thing that I did, where like
I would go home and write music and then go
to school and just be like, you know, a class
clown and be annoying at school and then go home
and like just kind of access to other side of myself.
So writing music was always a way for me to
to kind of have something that made me feel like
I belonged in who I like and who I really was.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, do you miss that because you don't feel you
get to do that anymore in the same way.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Like I just feel like everything I do, even like
internally on my own, like I just always am thinking
about it from like a how is this going to
move my career forward? How do we market this? Like
I don't know. When you like start to be sentient
to like who you are and what your music can
represent to people, it can affect like the intention. And
so sometimes I worry that I'm not being I'm not

(08:34):
saying things that I feel I'm just saying things that
sound like deep or sad or whatever. And I like
to think that the music that I put out is
all stuff that I connect to, But it's just in
the writing process and like thinking about, like, how do
we market your vulnerability in the next album, how do
we like show people this other sad thing, And when
it's like I feel like there's all this shit that's

(08:54):
up for grabs and up for like everything that I
have is going out and being taken in and being
absorbed or being sold. And I missed when it was
just me and the guitar and like the only person
in the world I was going to hear that song
was maybe my mom and then my my notebook or whatever. Yeah,
so yeah, I missed that, And I miss having music
be just this special thing that wasn't like adulterated by

(09:19):
the other side of music, which is not as much
fun for me.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
But what I'm hearing from you is that in your
writing process, you're almost using that awareness that you have
to go, oh no, I want to write with intention
and I want to write with my real feeling, And
it almost feels like you're using as a filter, which
I guess you're saying in the past that filter didn't exist,
you didn't need to. Now you almost have to filter
it through that.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, And in a lot of ways, it's nice because
seeing people respond and not even talking about like marketing
or charts or whatever like selling, shows that it's just
watching people like in the crowd hearing the music, and
like watching a girl and her dad or frat guys
or grown men like out there like feeling the music. Yes,
that helps me, like it inspires me to be vulnerable.

(10:02):
It's just a matter of like towing the line between
being vulnerable and trying to achieve what people think vulnerability
looks like, and sometimes realizing that sometimes some things don't
fit into a box. They don't fit into a three
and a half minute songs. Sometimes the conversation is much larger,
and being okay with not being able to say everything
you want all the time, and just yeah, even like
as I talk about the documentary, just like I'm still

(10:24):
figuring out how to talk about these feelings that I express,
Like I don't have a thousand foot view of like
what I went through, and so learning how to like
express myself without feeling like I'm giving myself away. Is
something that I've been grappling with a lot.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's this. I mean, just for whatever
it's worth. When I was watching the documentary, my wife
randomly was walking through the room and she stopped. She
didn't even know what I was watching. She just thought
I was on my laptop and I'm watching it. And
she walked in on the moment where you're singing for
the little wonderful girl who has cancer, and my wife
just stopped and was like she heard it, and she
was so mesmerized. She came over and she just saw

(10:59):
the little g on She was just crist and it
was like that was just your music and that moment,
and she had no clue what I was getting. Yeah,
she didn't know, And it had an impact in like
this very passive way of even experiencing it. And I
think that says a lot about what you're channeling and
putting through.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
That's the most wonderful compliment that somebody that I'm sure
your wife has a very different background than I do,
like or maybe she was from my hometown, I don't know,
but just like somebody that's not in the in my
world or in my body or in my experience like
finding a connection within themselves or like an interest in something.
I think that's like what mental health. The conversation about

(11:37):
mental health for me has been so cool. Was like
understanding that where I came from is my own and
I grew up with privilege and with access and like
that people that didn't have that are still connecting to
the feelings there and it brings us together and it
kind of helps equalize our differences into this like larger
similarity of just going through something mentally.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, I listened to you, and I'm like, wait, was I?

Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Why does this still my soul? Like you know, I'm
not just saying that to fly you. I'm like, as
I'm like, wait a minute, why does this like why
does this hit so deep? You know? And it's such
a beautiful thing of like connecting to strangers or people
from different walks of life and different backgrounds. But I
find it fascinating that you talk about, you know, almost
missing this old experience. But then in the documentary you

(12:23):
kind of start it with like this line of I'm
so afraid of losing this special thing and it might
go away, And so it's almost like there's there's something
beautiful about what's happening now too.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, it's it's I think I'm just constantly in like
a grass is Greener mindset and constantly trying to go backwards.
I worked with this songwriter in Nashville, and he's this
older guy, started when he was in his forties. His
name's Tom Douglas. Great writer. He said, songwriting is all
about trying to go back and and just somewhere simpler
and somewhere easier. And I think that's how I live

(12:55):
all out of my life. And I'm very actively, like
hyperactively aware of moments as they're there, and I'm not
able to be inside of the moment because I'm so
worried about when it's gone and i know one'll ever
be able to go back to it. And so in
the documentary you see a lot of me being like
this imposter syndrome of like I might not get this
ever again, this might all go away. And for having
worked for so long for like nine eight or nine

(13:17):
years before I had that kind of moment that allowed
me into those big venues and that like more kind
of like global success, I guess I'm so aware of
how fleeting and how hard it can be to rEFInd it,
and so I think I spent so much time worrying
about not being able to get it again that a
lot of those moments I wasn't able to fully live in.
So when there were moments like Famway Park in the documentary,

(13:38):
as you see in the movie, like that I'm able
to fully be in. Those are so special to me.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
And you felt you were like that was one of
the one of the.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Few times that I felt like I was just there
and like looking out and I just felt like so
with everybody else in that moment and not thinking about
before or after. And you know, that's why that show
was so special to me, Like the fans all being there,
the venue amazing, but like for me self, it was
just like, oh, I'm here, this is awesome. I am
right where you guys are right now. And I felt
like the same for a little while.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
I mean, I feel like I love watching that genuine
kind of present yet anxious feeling we all experience, like
that shot of you lying on the lawn at Venuay,
like lying on the ground and texting right at the beginning.
H yeah, and it's like You're like, I can't believe
I'm here. It's surreal. Yeah, but then you're like, but
I'm anxious, And when I watched it, I'm like, but
that's so real. Like that is the most present way,

(14:27):
in one sense, to experience anything. Is that that's the
human experience?

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Right, It's like I always am so jealous of like,
and maybe there's no one exists that can do this,
but someone that's just like fully living in the moment,
like fully like just accepting things as they come, being
right there, experiencing everything and not thinking about the context
or the future.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
It's possible.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, yeah, oh, that'll be so sick. If you have
a guy in la that you could help me up with,
like this, implant something in my brains.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
I only know the meditative way to that. I don't
know the technological way to even meditation.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
Bro. I'll be meditating and I'll be like, man, I
don't think I'm meditating good enough. I meditated so much
better when I was young. And it's hard meditation, Like
it's so it's powerful, but it's so difficult to like, go,
it's hard, it is, and you it takes a while,
Like it's the consistency is is key for meditation, I think.
But I'd like to learn more about that from you
some day.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
Of course, right, of course, I love how you talk
about though this. I think what I what I'm getting
at is there's I just feel like you're really honest
about how we all feel. I think it's very easy
to art. It's to be like, or I had this success,
you know, six season was insane, like the next thing's
going to be as big or bigger. And the reality is,
I think anyone who's had any success, you're always scared
of your next thing. Oh Like that's just such a

(15:36):
normal human emotion. And so you talk about this idea
of being scared and sad for the next album. How
does that bleed into your creativity and how do you
use it rather than be controlled by it.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
That's a great question. I'm still learning. I mean when
I was sixteen years old, no record deal, nobody knew
I was like making music or anything. Uh. I remember
still feeling that way. Like I wrote a song called
Sink when I was a kid, and I like, love
this song, and then the next day I was crying,
So I like, I'll never make anything as good as
that again. So there's no stakes at all for me
at that point in my life. But that feeling has

(16:08):
chased me around throughout my entire career and was incredibly
difficult coming off of Stick Season, just because I kept
on raising like the stakes emotionally for myself to have
to follow it up, and for the first like year
after being on tour for three years a Stick season,
I was just kind of lost in how to fight
that feeling. I had a conversation with a few different artists.

(16:30):
I don't necessarily want to name them, just because I
don't want to put them on the spot, but they
had gone through this themselves, like burnout and major success
and needing to follow things up, and the advice was just,
like the best advice I got was like, it's just
not going to be the same process and you can't
control you can't control it, you can't like try to
make it perfect, and it's just going to be what
it is. So I had to just kind of let

(16:51):
go of this idea of like the follow up and
just make music for that same you know, eight year
old to pick up the guitar the first time and
just make music because it's what I'm supposed to do.

Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, it's beautiful to hear that you actually reached out
to other arts who've gone through similar things, and you
have you felt that support in that community because I
think there are so many more artists now who are
talking about their mental health and are talking about the
creative process and everything else. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Absolutely, yeah, I feel like people really want to talk
about themselves, I think, and sometimes just getting that conversation started.
It's funny because like creativity and its intersection with self
worth is so difficult for people to navigate.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
You know, so well said to explain that for me,
that's yeah, just.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
I think a lot of times, as creative people, as writers, actors, whatever, podcasts,
you feel like what you do is who you are,
and when you're talking one, what your job is is
expressing yourself. You feel like when you can express yourself,
you're not good at your job and you're not good
at satisfying this need to let yourself out, and so
it becomes very lonely because you feel like admitting that

(17:56):
to somebody is not just admitting that you're strugging in
your means, you're struggling with yourself, and that can be
really really difficult to say to somebody, especially somebody that
you look up to that you think has it all together,
So like talking to these people was really hard, Like
my voice shakes in the phone, being like, I just
don't think I can write songs anymore, and I don't
think I can do this, and like having to open

(18:17):
yourself up to somebody like that and be like and
be afraid that they're gonna say, well, that sucks, you know,
and to hear someone say I get it and I
went through that too, or I have my own version
of that in my life. It just makes the world
feel brighter. It makes like the clouds over your head
just for a second go away, and you're like, at least,
even if it's not fixed yet, at least you've been

(18:38):
here before and there's a path out. So I'd like
unbelievably grateful to those artists, to my family, to my wife,
to the people that like sat with me in those
feelings and like observed how I was handling it and
recognized that I needed some help. So I'm really grateful
to the people that helped me. And if you're listening
to the podcast, like, thank you so much. And this

(18:58):
album would not have happened with it out without them.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
So everything you just said was so well articulated. I
hope you listened back to because it was just everything
you just said about creativity and self worth just resonated
so strongly.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
Thank you. Yeah, it's hard to describe, and it's hard
to describe it really well. I was like, you literally
just summed up the essence of when I was a kid.
I was like, even because even when I was going
through this stuff as a kid, like writer's block and
stuff like that, I would just look up artists with
writer's block and hope that I could see a quote
from somebody that would just like unlock everything. And I
found a few. But like, I tried to make avow

(19:32):
to myself to like talk about creative struggle because it's
really isolating and really lonely, and it just feels like
you get stripped of who you are, and it's it
just feels like you're drowning. So I always want to
try my best to share what I've gone through just
so people can can maybe hear it and be understood
for a sec.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, not not to compare, but to
reflect my own experience. I spent the last from when
I started the process, I spent the last twelve months
trying to figure out just what the topic of my
next book was going to be. And it was the
most excruciating twelve months of my life because I wrote
I've ever read in two books. This was my third
book that I'm writing, and I wrote chapters, threw them away.

(20:12):
I wrote chapters that I thought were quite good, and
then I read them back and they weren't. And I
was overthinking, ruminating and everything else. And then twelve months
later I was like, I'm going to write a book
about overthinking.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yeah, that sort of just done for twelve months totally
that experience, that's sort of.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
My actual experience rather than you know, writing from a
place of knowing I'm going to write, write from the
place of what I'm struggling with and.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
It just reaches people.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, but it took me a year to like even
come to that conclusion.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
Where and did you feel like when you kind of
made that choice internally, like did it feel easier? And
did it feel like the words flowed? And like so
much more.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
But it was because before I was trying to technically
figure out like, yeah, I had this really good book,
it did really well, and what was good about it?
Like how would I repeat that? And what would that
chapter structure look like if it matches that structure, And
people said they loved that chapter from that book, so
let me And it's like this mathematical process, which is
not how I wrote that first book. No, it's never
a second Yeah, And so then I'm like, wait, why

(21:06):
am I trying to be a mathematician?

Speaker 1 (21:08):
You can only go through what you're going through, like
you can't, yes, you can't like change the feelings you have,
even if they're feelings that you don't think are going
to be marketable or as successful. And then you kind
of realize, like that's actually more compelling than listening to
you pretend to be going through something and pretend to
have a perspective on something, like people relate to that.
That's awesome, dude, I'm pumped that you went through that too,

(21:30):
Like oh yeah, no, no, no, I'm not pumped that you
went through it, but I'm pumped that you got through
it and that we're able to talk about it with
like the perspective.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
No, I'm pumped. And now I'm pumped I went through
it too, because for that year, you just feel like
you're pulling your hair out. Good totally, what are we
doing here?

Speaker 1 (21:43):
I wonder if the next time that you and I
have to do something new, Like I always wonder are
we going to be able to like is this going
to help us the next time? I'm always like, am
I just going to be back to zero? Do we
just forget? Do we just get amnesia and like start again,
or like I hope that this experience for me and
that experience for you, like lets you have a little
bit of like confidence for the next time. Yes, Yes,
that's like what I'm trying to Like, I'm trying to

(22:04):
tell myself, like I just went through this hard thing creatively,
and I'm gonna have to be more creative in my life.
Like let's hope that these lessons actually help me instead
of like just forgetting about them and getting lost in
the sauce.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah, I feel like writing down these lessons protects them
from me personally, Like I'm like, I need to journal
about that. I need to write about it. I need
to cement what you just said, like this idea, this
moment where we're having this interaction and be like, no,
I said to me, I hope you don't forget these things.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
I do the same thing. I write whenever I like
I used to write a good song or a song
that I thought was good, and then I would put
in my notes up like everything I did to get
that good song. And it's funny because when I'm going
through something hard to look back and then I'm like, Okay,
I'm trying and it's not working. So yeah, it's complicated.
Creativity is so annoying because it like it makes you
start from scratch every time, and it makes you it

(22:53):
forces you to like use that muscle memory and it's
you know, it's just a fucking mind. Yeah, it's a mine. Man.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah. I remember like mc rubin was here like maybe
two years ago now, and like and then you get
Rick's sitting there just going like, yeah, don't make anything
for anyone, like just make it for yourself. And I'm like, yeah,
like I wish, yeah, but it's hard. It's like, you know, it's.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
Everyone's journey is so different and like yeah, everyone's like
creative process is so different that it could be so
hard to like find the bridge between two people. It's difficult.
I mean again, like I'm jealous of people that just
like can write every day and love what they're making
and like not have to worry about how it's being
perceived or I feel like writer's block. It's so closely
tied to like anxiety and like the self fulfilling prophecy

(23:38):
that you have, Like if you worry about something so much,
it's going to happen, and then you worry about worrying,
and then you're worrying about worrying, and then it's like
it's here, you know, like there you you did it, dude,
You're like Ngrat's like, I hope that I learned in
the in the process before I get to that place,
like to recognize what is happening internally and like question
it instead of just letting it flow and going to

(24:00):
this shitty spot.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
It's almost like we trust every thought totally. And that's
such an interesting idea. It's like if you trusted everything
you've read on social media and believed it to be
true without checking it. But we do that in our
mind all day, all the time, and any thought doesn't
get any evidence checked. There's no proof needed true, there's no.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Robutl it's like a weird arrogance that everything you think
has to be correct, But.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
Like then you're anxious about that roance. Maybe is the
way to think about it.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
Oh my god. I know it's a little bit of
like this ego thing where it's like, oh, well, I've
been especially because we all are really doing this in
one way or another from since we were children. Yea,
I think like expressing ourselves creatively, so it's tied up
in your inner self and this like you don't want
to betray this like process that you've cultivated, but like
I never questioned that maybe that process actually wasn't very healthy.
And there's a real way that I can make good

(24:45):
music without having to suffer all the time for it.
And we look at people like Van goh And and
these famous artists that like battered themselves to create, and
we think that's has to be how it is. And
I subscribe to that theory for a long time. And
I'm just now like trying to unwind this idea that
I have to be unhealthy physically or in pain in

(25:06):
some emotional way in my life to create good music,
Like there has to be a way to access it
without living it all the time.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
To call you almost didn't make let me ask you something, honestly,
have you ever almost made a phone call and then
decided not to Maybe you picked up your phone and
thought about calling someone. It might have been someone you
had not spoken to in a long time. It might
have been someone you wanted to thank, or maybe it
was someone you needed to apologize to. But then you hesitated.

(25:39):
You might have told yourself that it was not the
right time. You might have thought they were probably busy,
or maybe you convinced yourself that sending a quick text
would be easier, so you put down the phone. Most
of us do this more often than we realize. We
underestimate the power of a simple phone call, But when
you really think about it, some of the most memorable
moments in our lives begin with someone deciding to reach out.

(26:01):
They begin with someone deciding that the conversation was worth having.
For more than one hundred and fifty years, phone calls
have helped people bridge distance and stay connected with the
people who matter most in their lives. However, the real
magic of a phone call has never been the technology itself.
The real magic lies in the intention behind it. A

(26:21):
call is a moment when someone chooses to say, in
the simplest way possible, you matter enough for me to call.
Think about the last time someone called you unexpectedly just
to check in it probably meant more than you expected.
Hearing someone's voice reminds us that we're not just another
notification or message. We're a person someone cares about. So

(26:42):
today I want to challenge you to do something simple.
Think about the call you almost made recently. Instead of
waiting for the perfect moment, create the moment, call the person,
say the thing you've been meaning to say, because sometimes
the call you almost didn't make becomes the moment someone
remembers forever. This moment was sponsored by AT and T

(27:03):
Connecting changes everything. Did you believe that if you healed
too much it would reduce your creativity?

Speaker 1 (27:19):
One under you used to believe that. I used to
believe that for sure, Like I was, like, I mean,
it came into the conversation with when I started taking
medication for my anxiety when I was in high school
an OCD diagnosis more recently, Like, these problems were really
hard for me, and we're disrupting my ability to wake
up in the morning and to just be a human being.
But I was holding off on getting the help that

(27:40):
I really needed for a long time because I was
so afraid of it dolling my creativity. And then I
would look at my creativity and be like, well this
is not pretty very good either, like that I'm not
making anything good right now. I can barely put my
pen to the paper. I can barely even process a
single thought. And I was like, I don't want to
get help because I'm worried that I'll be happy and
I won't care about making something and I won't feel
pain and it won't be painful enough for my audience,

(28:02):
and it won't be scared, I won't the feelings won't
be real enough for my audience. And it just took
like kind of just saying, well, I don't want to
live like this anymore. And if it means that I
write a happy song, then like I need to get
up in the morning. And and I found that I
was still sad in a way that felt more manageable,
and I still had feelings and deep thoughts about things,

(28:23):
but I wasn't getting sidebarred by rabbit holes of obsession
and rabbit holes of anxiety anymore. And it really was
a turning point for me. Making this record was just
like taking the step off of the cliffs, so to speak,
into the unknown and not again it's a control thing,
Like I can't control this and it sucked. But when
I let go is when I like found it again. Yeah,

(28:44):
I was in Joshua Tree, and I like, I have
never been to Dashua Tree. I'm not even like particularly
a huge like desert guy kind of scares me. But
I was like, I'm struggling a lot in my life.
I need to go to Joshua Tree and like find
myself and make music. And I had just gotten diagnosed
with OCD. It's something I'd suspected for a long time.
And there's so many varying kind of branches of this problem,
and so I never really knew where I fit into

(29:05):
the conversation. So I didn't want to like get the
diagnosis and be like I have OCD. Now. I was
kind of scared. But I just got diagnosed with OCD,
and I was in Joshua Tree and I was feeling
so miserable when this beautiful airbnb, like I'm in the desert,
Like this isn't making me feel connected. Oh shit, And
I was like so lost in that and so being
somewhere beautiful and realizing that the problem was like beyond

(29:28):
where I was or where I put myself or how
nice the studio or the collaborators were like, realizing that
I just wasn't gonna be able to do it on
my own was like that Joshua Trade trip was like horrible,
but also incredibly enlightening because I was like, all right,
that was my last try. It just like hoping life
fixes this for me.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean, like I imagine it's also
one of the things you address in the documentary is
that it's challenging because you don't want to like a
your family's laud and you know, it's like this a
lot of what you write about is your family and
is your upbringing. And talk to me about how hard
it is when it's like what you're writing from easier
family and you love obviously it's obvious in your dog,
but you will love each other. Then you have a

(30:04):
supportive relationship. But at the same time it's hard to
do that.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
It's complicated, man. I think actually, like one of my
biggest regrets is not knowing how to communicate how I
was feeling and choosing to do it through the songs
that were then marketed to millions of people and heard
by millions of people without having that conversation. First of
saying hey, Mom and dad, like, this is what I'm
feeling about, you know, your guys, divorce or or whatever

(30:28):
is going on in our lives. My dad's you know,
brain injury and these things that like I never really
knew how to talk to them about. I'm much better
at saying it in songs. It's I don't want to
say cowardly, but it's just I'm afraid of that conflict sometimes,
and so I'm like, I go back to this like, Okay, well,
I'm gonna write it down like ngtten, like I'm gonna
go like write it down. But like when you're writing

(30:48):
things down in a journal versus when you're sending them
to every streaming platform and every marketing thing in the world,
the effect that I feel like it could have on
people is that they feel blindsided. And my mom has
always told me like she was happy that I was
getting those feelings out. She's been so supportive my dad
as well, But I still felt like this regret of
being like I wish I had talked to you guys

(31:09):
about this first, because it would have been so much healthier.
It would have been more fair to you, it would
have been probably more helpful for me, and it's hard
to like, like you said, air the dirty laundry in
a way that's fair to everybody, and I don't think
I did that and my last album, so I'd been
really trying to be intentional about making sure I communicate
what I'm saying and why I'm saying it to my parents,

(31:29):
my family and this next album, and making sure they
have a fair shake to say, hey, maybe that makes
me feel unomfortable, like please don't do that in the
documentary is like another huge extension of that, like allowing
these people into my home and my parents' homes, into
their marriage, and to my dad's injury and to my
issues with my body and things that you know will

(31:50):
be seen in the documentary. It's been really important to
be communicaive with each other about what people are comfortable with,
why we're doing it, why it's important to have hard
moments in there, and how it can be helpful for people.
Like I had a conversation with my sister and I'm
like always checking in to make sure they're okay with this,
and like it's been this big anxiety thing for me
of like I'm so worried that you guys feel like

(32:11):
I'm using you or like trying to exploit our pain
or our experiences for my own gain. My sister said
it best. She's just like, is it painful to see
dad from an outside angle like this? Yes, But like
she's like, I really think someone who's going through this
in their own way with their parents or their friend
or family or partner is going to be helped by it,

(32:33):
and so there's like a greater good to those like
just uncomfortable, vulnerable feelings. And that made me feel better,
like hearing them be supportive of it and not be
like mad at me or scared or it's helped me
kind of grapple with my own anxiety about about all
of it and about showing the world my family and
my life.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that conversation. And your sister, I
didn't know that. When was the first time you kind
of talked to your parents about this and what was
that interaction?

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Like it was hard because, like started the documentary, I
don't think I was fully aware of like where it
was going to go. And I think obviously that's kind
of how all good documentaries are, Like it starts out
with something that feels small or controlled, and then it
becomes something I don't know, more universal and deeper, and
so you know, I'm just like, Eah, they're coming to
film some stuff. And then suddenly, you know, my dad
and I are like having this really intimate moment on

(33:19):
the porch or the conversation in the yard. And I
think the best way that I've always done been able
to be vulnerable is like conversations like this where you're
not like, here are the things that you have to say,
like it just kind of happens naturally. But I think
we were kind of just like, Yeah, they're just gonna
come film some stuff and I'll probably play the acoustic guitar.
I'll leave, and then it kind of like developed into
this more intimate, like vulnerable piece. So I think they

(33:42):
learned with me as things were happening what it was
going to be like. And man, like the first time
watching the documentary, because you see it all get made around,
you're kind of able to like pretend it's not happening.
And I think we all were kind of like, let's
think about that later. But like when it finally was
time to watch, it was like one of the most
stressful days of my entire life. Yeah, it was.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
I kind of have you waked through with the whole
family yet?

Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, So it was it was I got it first,
and I one of the most poorly timed edibles of
my entire life. I was literally I was like coming
up on this like weed edible and the documentary get
sent to my inbox and like they're gonna I'm gonna
send it to my family, but I really want to
watch this first. And so watching this two hour long,

(34:25):
hour and a half long movie about myself was like, oh,
you're right, God, yeah, And I'd never seen all the
pieces together and how like emotional it was. And my
family and I talked to each other like honestly and
emotionally all the time, but like we kind of are like, no,
let's have a drink and I'll see you tomorrow, like
you don't have to think about it again. So like
knowing that this was just like there for everyone to
watch and that I was not to send it to
my mom and brother and sister who were really right

(34:46):
down the road was really scary. And so I sent
it to them and like I think that their response,
like I guess I was hoping that they'd be like,
this is amazing, great send it off the Hollywood. I
think for them it was an emotional experience as well,
and it was like challenging in a lot of ways
to watch I think beautiful at the same time, but
challenging them to see not just like seeing yourself on camera,

(35:08):
which is been weird, yeah, and like not human, but
just seeing how the themes came together and like kind
of reminded us of this painful thing that we've had
to go through as a family. And so it was
like a lot of conversations at first about how we
felt about it, if we wanted to do it or not.
I was ready and willing to be like this, let's
not do it. Then if you guys are feeling any

(35:28):
type of way about it, let's not do it. It's fine.
You know. When we all watched it together as a family,
we found ourselves laughing, crying, hugging, and like being so
excited because it brought us all a lot closer and
it helped us kind of like actually visualize what it's
like for my dad, what it's like for my mom,
what it's like for all of us in our own way,

(35:49):
and like I remember this feeling of just like this
golden weak Afterwards, where like we all just felt super
connected to each other and we felt this gratitude and
it really has brought my dad and I a lot
closer in a lot of ways. There are things that
I said in that documentary that I knew someday he
was going to hear, but I don't think I ever
could have said myself because I wasn't brave enough or
something else too scared. And so like having this vehicle

(36:11):
to like tell my dad what I was feeling and
tell them how sorry I was for like my impatience
with him and how sad I felt about what he
had gone through, And it created this connection that I
think we never really got to have, and it was
really really special and powerful, And like I said at
the beginning, like I wish every single family could have
a chance to watch the way they interact with each other.

(36:33):
And I have to get to see what it looks
like to love each other and to be a son
and a daughter, a father and mother on screen, because
it really helped us.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
It's fascinating when that process becomes therapy and healing. Almost
did it make your parents readdress any of the things
you brought up? Like, did it start new conversations that
hadn't happened before where they said or when you said
this or when you felt this, like this is what
was going through our life.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
Yeah, it did, It did, and you know, I'm, like
I said, I'm still learning how to talk about it,
but I do feel like it helped us address why
our reservations were there, and a lot of times reservations
are are like fears were not even about like what's
actually being shown. It's about us grappling with it being
out for sure. You know, like I remember thinking about

(37:19):
this thing of my dad, or I'm like, oh, I
don't want anybody to like see my dad as vulnerable
or like going through this hard thing. And I think
the truth was that I was grappling with my own
like shame or whatever about it and my own like
embarrassment for having my own vulnerabilities or and so it
wasn't even about like what's on screen. It was about

(37:39):
my own internal dialogue about it. And so I think
that was really important that it opened up a lot
of conversations about like, my dad loves this movie, he's
seen it. This isn't about him even in this moment.
This is about my own shit and so I need
to work through this and stop being like projecting my
own fears onto these other people in my life, which
was really important and a hard thing to to accept.

(38:00):
But I think a lot of us had that realization
and that was really healthy. I think to kind of
express that to each other, and you know, painful things
like we don't always want to talk about them all
the time, and with people living all the country and
people being in different walks of life and my family
and my life, like, it was nice to have to
kind of force ourselves to confront some of these feelings,

(38:22):
and it was really healthy.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
Yeah, it's I'm only sharing this because it's reminiscent of
a conversation had a couple of months ago with Chris Emswith,
who made a documentary about his father's Alzheimer's. Oh wow,
and so it's about his dad's journey and he's forgetting
details and he felt the same way as you did,
where it was like, am I like putting my dad's
story out there like this? Like yeah? And then what

(38:45):
he said was when he watched it, it was really
emotional for him and his dad to watch it, but
it was actually most amazing to watch his sons watch
it because they watched it and they were like, we
want to spend more time with Grandpa. That's amazing, like
and he was like that was you know, and it's
it's that kind of thing where I'm listening to you
going like this is something that your family has come
closer together over it. Yeah, which is why you're saying,

(39:06):
like you wish every person could almost make a mini
doc about their life and not even share it publicly,
like it sounds like a healing experience.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
Honestly, it'd be a cool, like a family therapy thing
to do. It's not a be very expensive, but no, totally,
And like so much of what we feel other people
are going through is really just a projection of how
we are experiencing our own pain. I think, like, my
dad is the fucking man. Uh. He is happy doing
his thing, He loves his life. Their struggles like in

(39:37):
any person's life, and he has you know, he's has
had a struggle through this injury. But a lot of
it was just me worrying about him and like making
it seem like it was his for some reason, his
responsibility to feel that same worry that I had, And
it's not people experienced the pain differently, and I learned
a really good lesson through making this documentary that like

(39:57):
my view of the world and view of people trauma
isn't always accurate, and it's not fair to like suggest
that they're going through what I think they're going through
all the time.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
I mean, that's huge. Yeah, if there was any lesson
we could all learn totally, that's that's huge. You like
to be able to actually go, oh wait, the way
I process stuff isn't the way people process stuff, And
just because I'm judging this thing, doesn't it. I mean,
that's that's huge and totally what a great lesson to
gain from.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
It's helped me like the using the word selfish my therapist,
like you say self focused, you know, but like a
lot of times we think we're helping people or we
think we're speaking some truth into the air, and it's
like that's not at all what's going on with this person.
And so getting to see that up close and getting
you know, my thing is I were my family and
I are like, oh my god, we have to send

(40:41):
this to Dad, like he has to watch this, Like
we're all so nervous that I was gonna feel I
said to my dad. He's like, I love it very simply,
like that's great, buddy, love it. Like wow, that was
like not what I expected you to say, Like it
takes this huge weight off my shoulders and like makes
me happy that he's like, no, I know, I know
what's going on. Like you know, it wasn't like this
like kid's gloves he dead just to say you look.

(41:02):
He was like, oh, hell yeah, I look cool.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
And you haven't even had the premiere yet, So I
can't imagine how proud he's good.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
I mean, I know that.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
Moment on the porch, I mean seeing him choke up
and I kind of be like, all right, we just
gonna you know, yeah, I mean that's he's so proud.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
Like, man, that's one of the most like I mean
I remember tell me by that moment, yeah, I mean
I remember. It's hard for my I think for me
and my dad sometimes like address these things, and so
it's hard to get emotional about it, and not so
much of me like wants to have that conversation and
to like hear him say that he gets it. And
I just felt like that was the closest we got

(41:41):
and the fact that it was able to happen for
the documentary is amazing, but just for me, that moment
was really important, just like seeing him kind of be like,
I know it's complicated and it's hard, and just to
feel to see his pride in me and to see
his love for me in that moment, even after I'm
sitting there like critiquing his ability to play the song,
which I can regret though I just feel like such

(42:01):
a dick, But I was like, it's like, you know,
and your dad, you'd become a little kid again and
you're just like, oh, Dade, just play the right thing.
But just seeing him like get emotional, but just I
could see in his eyes like this this conversation that
we haven't really had, but I could see like it
happened like between us in that moment, like telepathically almost,

(42:21):
and that was like just really really really special for me. Yeah. Yeah,
that was something that I really really will never forget.
And I'm really grateful to people that helped me this
documentary for like pushing in a way, like us to
these moments into these interactions because it's so easy just
to drift away and drift through life and just like
go to home for Thanksgiving or go home and go

(42:44):
out to dinner and a season. Zari had a great
bit about like going to see your parents and like
how it's the same thing every time, and you leave
and you're like you're happy to leave, but you feel guilty.
And I felt that a lot, just like I feel
like I came here and just didn't We didn't solve
or work through anything. We just like work together. That
can be beautiful, but sometimes you want more. And like
that those moments with my family like allowed us to

(43:05):
confront a lot of things and allowed us to have
like moments that will remember forever.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
It's beautiful, man, Thank you, I can tell him it's emotional.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
Yeah, it makes me emotional, man. Yeah. I just could
love my family so much, dude, and like getting to
be close to them in this way. And this journey
has been incredibly complicated for everybody, Like you know, having
my family be really exposed to the world, even just
without this documentary, just through my album and through promotion

(43:33):
of it and through people coming into connection with where
we're from and who we are has been really challenging.
And this just felt like a platform for us to
kind of like grapple with that together and even after
and like the editing and the conversation with what we
wanted to be in the movie. It just allowed us
to like heal a little bit, I think, and like

(43:53):
just allowed me to find like peace with a lot
of it. And yeah, it's it's crazy, man.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
You've talked so much about today, like kind of we've
been weaving this idea of mental health and just how
important is to you the documentary you speak about it
quite openly. Has success made mental health harder in some ways?
Or has it made it better in some ways?

Speaker 1 (44:17):
It's so hard to say, Like, my mental health challenges
weren't going anywhere, whether I became a musician that like
a touring like professional musician or whatever I am, they
weren't going anywhere. I would have been interested to see
how they manifested. I think it's introduced this lifestyle and
this like level of like like I said, this like
self focused kind of business lifestyle has created a lot

(44:38):
of mental health challenges for me, but also has kind
of allowed me to confront them in a way that
maybe like if I went to college and went and
got a job in an office or somewhere, I could
probably more easily not ever deal.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
With it interesting.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, So in a lot of ways, I think it's
helped me, but it's also introduced a lot of different
challenges into my life that you see the documentary, but
also just wouldn't be there without music and and creative
struggle and just all the things that go along with
being in this like weird and industry.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, what's your what's your most daily or regular experience
from a mental health point of view that you that
you that you go through.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
I think a lot of it is just like self image,
and that like extends to like physical image, but also
like mental image. Like I worry that I've just wasted
so much time, like hating who I am, uh, and
just like being aware of this thing that's happening to
me that like is like feels like it's grinding me
down sometimes and like and knowing that I have this
thing and that knowing that it could be better but

(45:34):
it's not right now. Like that's probably my most Like
I wake up and I'm like, why do I feel
like shit? Like I'm pissed. It's a beautiful morning. The
birds are and chirping, it's beautiful outside. I've you know,
career success aside I have like I have this like
lovely little life, and I wish I could wake up
and not be like miserable for no reason. It feels
like sometimes and being aware of like those moments that

(45:56):
I just can't feel connected. Uh, it's really lonely. And
I think that's probably my like daily It's like that's
my daily driver. That feeling. I think I kind of
that feeling escalates and escalates and it comes to like
these bigger, more intense like episodes for me of mental health.
But that's what is kind of the backdrop to my
day is like darn, I feel like shit, this sucks

(46:19):
and I have to just like wade through it every
day and it gets easier and there's days that are
better and worse, but like generally I just kind of
am feeling like I wish I didn't feel depressed. You know.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
Yeah, I felt it was really brave for you to
address the bodied dysmorphia image approach. I wasn't expecting that,
and I think you kind of really went there. It
felt so courageous in one sense to do that, and
of course, honest.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, I feel like I don't know, and I say
it in the documentary just like I don't know where
I fit into like the world of this thing I'm
going through. I'm never really confronted in a way that's like,
and this is how I feel about my body. It's
like it's just this thing that lives in the back
of my brain that is like more prominent than other times.
And it really came out the documentary and like watching

(47:05):
that back is like even I mean, man, even my
mom was just like I had no idea, Like like
she knew I had something like that, but she didn't
know like how much it was affecting me. And even
just seeing myself, I'm like, I don't feel like that
right now, but like I do feel like that a lot.
And it's like it's hard when the thing that you
really compartmentalize and you lock away like is now there.
And so it's scary for me even to talk to
you about it because I don't want to say the

(47:27):
wrong thing and I don't want to I know how
much of an issue this is for people and how
it can ruin lives and how hard it is for
people's mental health that I'm always so afraid that I'm
like I don't want to represent an issue because I'm
afraid of like saying the wrong thing or giving advice
or like I don't know of like making it feel

(47:47):
like I know what I'm talking about because I have
no idea. It's just this thing that is there within me.
And yeah, really really difficult concept because it's so tied
up in who you are and the feelings you've had
since you were a kid that like it's hard to describe,
like the body dysmorphia problems succinctly, and I even as
you can hear right now, struggling, I struggle to do it.

(48:08):
But it's complicated, man. And it was easy. I think
it's easy to say, like I want to talk about that,
but when it comes down to talk about it, like
I don't feel eloquent at all. I don't feel articulate.
I feel like it's just just like dreamlike stance that
I that I have to fall into. It's weird.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
Yeah, I think it's a strange challenge that we put
on ourselves and other people to properly articulate these extremely nuanced, daily,
regular feelings that are that don't always make sense, Like
in one sense, we're trying to finally package up some
perfect words around something that changes how we feel about
it daily. Yeah, and it's almost it's almost an impossible

(48:44):
task totally, because you're absolutely right that you can feel
something one day, people feel it differently. I just feel
like you don't see a lot of men, especially being
able to say that publicly, and so I think it's
gonna help a lot of men and just even come
into terms with it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
I remember, like I have this song called The Shape
in My Shadow, which was weirdly one of those like
our moments where I like felt really aware and understanding
of my struggle with it and like it goes away,
but in that moment, I wrote this song and played
it live on World Mental Health Day in Florida a
few years ago, and was like hearing it being heard

(49:22):
for the first time and then walking off stage and
like having people in my in my crew and people
in my life come up to me and be like, dude,
like man especially be like I I go through that too. Wow,
Like that was fucking cool that you did that, bro,
Like I feel that one and like people that I
wouldn't expect. I think you think like body dysmorphia and
like you're looking like you're like physically looking at somebody
and like how do you look like is this person

(49:44):
look overweight, then they'll probably connect with her. Is this person
look really scared? They'll probably not How it is man Like,
it's almost not even about your body at all. Yeah,
it's for me, it's not even it. I don't think
it's even about Like what I actually appear to be
is how we think of ourselves. So these people coming
up and saying that to me was like this is
like important, Like this this is something really really difficult

(50:05):
to articulate and to talk about. And like the fact
that I just had three people that probably wouldn't have
said anything to me if I never played that song
come up and say like hey, dude, like thank you
or like I get that, And that's huge. It was
really special man, in eye opening and it like makes
you feel like more sensitive to people and like you
just never fucking know what someone's going through, man.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Like you really don't you do.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
And uh, it's easy to like look at somebody and
be like your life must be so sick and then
be like, man, you have no clue.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
Yeah, yeah, and you assume that, right if someone's like
put together or looks a certain way, or maybe they're
making a decent living or whatever. Maybe it's like we
just go, well, okay, well you don't have any real problems, so.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
You know, yeah, such a good point, man. I always
whenever I come to LA and do like anything like this,
I'm always like, oh yeah, like I get driven here
in the black suv and I'm gonna come here and
complain about my shit. Like people in the world right
now going through so much, and it does feel like
there's a push and pull of like how do I
talk about what I'm going through without like being insensitive

(51:03):
to like people were struggling in much more significant I
are just different but significant ways well, also not discrediting
what I've gone through. At the same time, It's been
a real challenge for me to talk about. I hope
that in the documentary people can see that through line
through everybody's life, that regardless of sex, pre class, gender, identity, race,

(51:25):
that people can like find things that connect us, like
these feelings that are painful. I like to think everybody's
experiencing something similar in some way, and maybe that's not true,
but that's like my hope is that there's like world peace,
but like we all can have a conversation no matter
where we're from about our mental health and how it's
affecting us, and like we can hear similarities in some things.

(51:47):
And that's what I hope is true. Because with everything
you know that that's going on in the world right now,
like how you know divided the world is and how
awful people are being treated right now, that we can
find ways to be brought together through vulnerability and through
being honest with each other. But how we feel, So is.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
That how you think about making an impact on the
world with everything you see? Is that?

Speaker 1 (52:09):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (52:09):
Where you focus?

Speaker 1 (52:11):
I think just trying to be like completely honest about
how I feel like whenever I can, because then it
doesn't feel like you have to perform. And I was
talking to somebody last night at this like weird party thing, uh,
and I was just like, dude, if you start making
music like trying to sound like somebody, then when the
time comes to like you want to be yourself, it's

(52:31):
going to feel like you're lying. Yeah, So like if
you can just be as honest as you can and
like accept whatever that does for you socially, career wise, emotionally,
like live and die by that, because then you never
have to change and you never have to adjust your presentation.
All you have to do is reach within, which you've
been doing forever anyway.

Speaker 2 (52:49):
So yeah, yeah, that's well said. Yeah yeah, and that's
I think that's the different sources between act as and musicians.
Like you know, an actor does have to pretend to
be someone and yeah, that does affect their personality and
it does affect their self image, and it can deeply
affect everything from the way they speak to the way
they look.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
Or have you done acting?

Speaker 2 (53:06):
I have not in any Yeah, not in any maje.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
I always wonder how you bring I wonder if the
best actors bring in, like they bring in more themselves
in a way to this different character so that it
like creates something relatable.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
Yes, yeah, so I think there's I forget what the
technique's called from some studies that I've done in the
space with some clients that I have who are actors,
and they talk about that where it's like, if you
can't pretend to have an emotion, You've got to find
the emotion or the experience within yourself to to bring
it out. But at the same time, I think a
lot of people if you're especially if you're doing a biopic, right,

(53:38):
you can find the emotion within yourself, but ultimately you're
still becoming someone else to some degree.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
Is there a part of you that feels that way?
And like how do you get comfortable approaching that? It
almost reminds me of the music and the documentary of
just like how do you go back into this space
over and over again? Like it's painful, dude, It's got
to be painful because we all have like smaller I
think some people have bigger parts of that kind of
character than others do. But like, well, I think we
all have like cynical parts of us and like sure

(54:06):
and like angry parts of us, but like some people
just don't have as much access or don't have as
big of an angry bone inside of them. But like
it's got to be hard to have to like live
in that moment.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
I think that's actually where real compassion comes from. Like
when you can look at your own heart and notice
that it has all of these abilities and has aspects
of all of these things that you may not live
on a daily basis, but you start seeing it and
you go, oh, I see how that comes out for
someone else, Because I've seen that in me. I know,

(54:37):
even if it's tiny, if that makes.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
It totally man, it's I always think like the goal
is to be like a perfect person at all. Like
the goal is to understand the parts of you that
make you happy and like try to access those. But
it's also important to dip into the stuff that like
you don't like and to question it and to approach
it and look at it. In the documentary, I say like,
I'm finally looking at the same thing like it used

(54:59):
to be. I think I'm you know, talking about body
is more of your just mental the mental illness stuff.
Like it used to be this thing that I was
like ashamed of in such a big way that I
wouldn't even want to look at it, Like I would
just like sprint past the door where the thing was inside.
And now I'm like finally like just like brushing it
with my hand, you know, and being like all right,
like this thing is in there. I'm getting better at
approaching and I'm getting better at like understanding that it

(55:21):
is there and not being so afraid of it. Yeah,
it's that's that journey has been has been helpful for me.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
Yeah, it's almost like the monster under the bed, Like
if you pretend that it's not there. You know it,
you're scared.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
It just gets bigger.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
Yeah, it just gets bigger and you've gotta gotta go
and check and it' say, oh, okay, brush the party.
You know, it's so important, and I think for so long, like,
of course we want to be in the light, we
want to do good work, but you can't avoid the
darkness and those elements that exist, as you said, out
of shaming, Gil.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
Yeah you can, and like it does find other ways
to manifest, and I think it's much healthier to like,
in my opinion, like sitting down with the therapist is
like the most important thing you can do with these feelings.
It's like expressing them in a safe, unbiased place where
like you could say whatever you want and not feel
like you're gonna be judged for it, because if you don't.
I do feel like we have to find a way
to cope, and we have to find a way to

(56:11):
keep not feeling it. And like addiction, you know, for me,
eating binge, eating not eating is how I deal with
a lot of stuff. And I'm realizing that it's because
I don't talk about it enough and so I keep
wanting it to go away and go away and go away.
But then I find myself engaging in these engaging and
these behaviors that really make me unhappy and make me
feel even worse. It's this horrible cycle of just like

(56:31):
the thing you think you're doing to help is actually
making it harder. And then it just kind of repeats
itself and repeats itself, and you do it for soap
and long that the grooves in your brain there's a
little train going through your head that only knows one path,
and like it gets deeper and deeper and deeper, and
it never has a way to go anywhere else because
you just have lived this one routine for so long.

(56:52):
And so, you know, going to therapy, which I've been
doing my whole life, but I feel like I wasn't
really doing in a real way until like five or
six years ago, where I started to really like go
into it.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
What was the difference between going to therapy and then
doing their.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
Yeah, So, like I said, I like my mom and
my dad were always so supportive of me, like and
my siblings going to get help and going to talk
about our feelings. We've all kind of gone through a
lot of similar mental health struggles. Thanks Mom and dad, No,
and they've been so supportive and like always in it's
a therapist. But I think like for a while, I
was just immature and like didn't want to talk to somebody.

(57:45):
And also it's hard when you're a kid and like
to be like, oh, this forty eight year old dude
is like here to ask you about all this stuff,
and like obviously you're like I don't want to talk
about it, and you can kind of live your life
for a long time, like saying the right thing, but
not actually like really letting anyone hear anything, and saying
things that sound like you're being emotionally vulnerable or picking

(58:07):
and choosing different things that you'll talk about and certain
things that you won't talk about. And it's all connected.
So when you start doing that, you're actually not really
touching the whole thing, which is it's all connected to
like one larger mental health thing. Then sound very eloquent,
but I guess what I'm trying to say is like, yeah,
is I didn't really commit myself to getting better because

(58:28):
I wanted to selfishly, self centeredly do it on my
own and only like express certain fears and emotions to
people because I was still afraid of talking about them,
and I think when I started seeing this new therapist,
and so much of it is about the person you see,
because I've had bad experiences with therapists, and like, once
you open up to somebody and they like they don't
respect that, it becomes really hard to go talk to

(58:49):
somebody else. Like it's like you open up to a
friend and like a break up, yeah, and then someone
like uses that against you, or they laugh at you,
or they like make you feel crazy. It's not like Okay,
I'll try it to the next person. It's like, no,
I'm never touching that again. Yeah, you're it's like a breakup,
like you hurt me, and like I'm not opening myself
up again. So it was kind of being willing to
open up again finding the right person and then like

(59:11):
feeling safe and then slowly just like realizing how much
more there was than the kind of headlines of what
I thought my feelings and issues were, and like being
asked questions that maybe dig a little deeper, and like
being willing to cry and say I don't want to
talk about this. And what was really complicated for me,
and what's still complicated is like, and I do say

(59:32):
this in the documentaries, is being a mental health advocate,
you know, like having this mental health charity which like
we're also proud of you, present thank you, and presenting
myself as someone that has an answer or has like
a focus and like my is going to be really
open and emotionally vulnerable all the time, and then not
feeling like I was really practicing that in my personal life.
It makes it hard and therapy to like accept that

(59:54):
I don't have all the answers and it kind of
creates this feeling like you're not being honest about who
you are and that was really difficult.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
What's the what's the best question your therapist ever asked you?

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
I think it's like do you want this to be?
What's happening to you? And I know in some ways,
like is it so much easier for you to cause
yourself pain and to hurt yourself? And is that actually
something that you're is bringing you comfort? Like is this
like in pain that you're inflicting on yourself emotionally occasionally physically,
Like is it actually something that you have become comfortable with?

(01:00:28):
It's like, is it this long time friend of yours
that you don't want to leave because you feel like
you're betraying something and like betraying this childhood pain or
whatever it is. That was a great question and made
me think about it because I think I've always been
like I hate this same thing, like I want to
get rid of this, but like no, sometimes like no,
I don't yeah, like and she's like, I don't know
if you. I don't know if you do, Like do you?

(01:00:49):
Because it feels like you want the comfort of this
thing you've had for a long time and it's become
such a big part of your life that you don't
know who you are without it, and it's scarier to
be someone that's but not not familiar with something then
to be unhappy but feel like you're in the safety
of your own unhappiness. Oh that was that sounded great,

(01:01:15):
But that was like the most important thing. I think
she's asked me, and she's asked me she's just so wonderful.
I don't I hope my therapist isn't watching this. But
thank you so much. But that question really helped me
understand the context of what I was, what I was
really feeling.

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think a lot
of people would get a lot from asking that question
to themselves or hopefully going through that with their therapist.
I think you said after in the twenty twenty four
Grammy party you were like talking about parties earlier. You
were saying you felt like the least cool guy there,
and it was like that was the feeling you were
having at that time, and that goes back to that
image and grappling with that emotion and is there a

(01:01:51):
bit more peace now because that was your first time
being there? Right, it was like you're yeah, nominated, Like
do you think that is natural when you're doing something
new and first time and then it goes away?

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
What really?

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
Yeah? Absolutely? I think like I think I really like
wanted the experience to be what I'd always dreamed of
because I always dream of that experience, and so like
I got in there and the vision of like what
I thought I was gonna feel and what I thought
it was gonna look like like just wasn't what it was.
And I just kind of felt like outside of all
of it, and it wasn't anyone's fault. It was really
just me not having the confidence to like engage with

(01:02:22):
this new experience and wanted to be comfortable, and so
I felt really isolated. And then my mom is like
talking to everybody and she everyone loves her, and like
I'm like, damn, Mom's so cool. When I'm just sitting here,
my mom and Brandy Carlisle are talking and like my
mom loves Brandy and and like I just kind of
felt like the kid in the cafeteria that like didn't
have anyone to sit with, and just knowing that like

(01:02:46):
the end of the night, the only measure of success
I was I was putting into the night was if
I won this Grammy or not, because I had built
this thing up to be so important to me, and
so it kind of made me feel like I had
no purpose in the room. I felt like my purpose
was was no longer needed and that was no one's
fault and it was on me for putting all the
stock into this award. But I didn't feel cool. And

(01:03:09):
then I lost, along with you know, many others who
like I'm always curious to see how they would deal
with it, because I was so sad, and I was
like obviously happy for the person that won, truly and
like grateful that I was even nominated, and like just
like walking into a room full of people who, like
I was so worried, We're gonna be like disappointed and
like not mad at me, but like almost like their

(01:03:30):
experience was that they wanted me to win. Like I
was projecting how I thought everyone wanted this night to go,
and so like walking into the room with like my
family and my friends, my wife, like all these people
my team would work so hard, and like just feeling
the disappointment like just really made me feel like I
was on an island and that I like had let
everybody down in my life. And I feel like I
let my fans down. I was like I wanted this

(01:03:51):
so bad, Like sorry, guys, Yeah, yeah, they I think
they did. Man, I know that's not the case. But
this time it's like I feel like I've gone through
so much since then and like reevaluating what I care
about and like realizing that what I care most about
is a story that I can tell with my music
and the music that I can make, and that no

(01:04:11):
one can can take it away from me, no one
can vote on it, and no one else can have it,
and like nurturing this thing and so coming back, you know,
having a new album, feeling like I'm really excited about it,
really proud of it, proud of the journey that I
went on to get to making this album, which was
really difficult, and and like that's where my confidence is
coming from right now, not from whether I have good

(01:04:32):
songs or not, but just knowing that I went through
something and I'm on the other side now. When I
was at the twenty four Grammys, I was like scrapping
with all this creative insecurity and this is security about
where my career was going to go. And I thought
that a Grammy was gonna like like it's like that
like thing on the image youcy on, like like a
meme or whatever, like the guy puts like one piece
of duct tape on the giant exploding water tank. Like

(01:04:53):
I think that was what I was hoping the Grammy
would be for me.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
That's good, that's really good.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
And like it was never gonna be that anyways, And
so like knowing that now makes me more like at
peace with just like being able to be in this conversation,
being able to be amongst the peers that I have
that are incredible musicians, And yeah, I feel I don't
feel cooler, but I feel more comfortable in my own
skin and my own presence.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
Yeah, I really appreciate the way you processed that for us,
because I think ninety nine percent of us are always dealing
with situations where we felt like we lost or failed
or But it's it seems like you've addressed a really
powerful pattern that I think has come up a few
times in that when you're watching the documentary with your father,
you're like, wait, what's his experience of it? And even
now when you talk about being at the Grammars, you're like,
what's everyone else's expectation experience of it? And it seems

(01:05:39):
like you've really addressed like a really powerful pattern of
something that seems to come up for you, which is
always projecting what you think all the people's experiences. And
that's really powerful that you can see that as being
a sign of whenever you're doing something big or incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
Bro, it's projection is like so difficult because it's it
forces you to question like everything you've thought about other
people's perception of you. And also like, as my career
has like grown, like there's I mean, you saw it today,
I'm most lovely people around me in the world.

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
They wonderful.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
Yeah, every single person that I get to work with,
like is awesome, and that's very rare, you know, especially
in the music industry where you have people that are
like there for the wrong reasons whatever. But like wheneverywhere
you go, you have style and hair and pr and
management and label and whatever agent and all these people
around you, like you kind of feel like they're like

(01:06:31):
they need it to go well, like that's the projection.
And so you start like being like, are you guys
having fun? Like are you guys doing this? Are you
guys enjoying this? Like that I do good enough for you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Guys kid energy at the same time, totally, dude.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
I think it like it all ties back to like
that being around the dinner table and like wanting to
be heard and wanting to be accepted and and wanting
people to think that you have value. And when you
can't find that in here in your heart or your
and your your brain, like you need to be provided
by other people. And I'm struggling with that right now,
like just with my album coming out and just like

(01:07:04):
how I'm going to like take in responses to it,
good and bad. I think like every good comment and
every bad comment like have a similar have a similar
reaction from me. Actually, like they move me so much.
You know, like if I said someone says that I
did a good job, I'm like, yeah, I'm good. Someone
says that I suck, I'm like I suck. Like I
want to find somewhere in the middle where like I

(01:07:25):
can literally have my own belief on myself. Equilibrium is
a great way to put it. I would love to
find more of that in my life.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
Yeah, And it's such a hard place to live because
we are so used to being really pumped up with
the highs, and I always feel like the more pumped
up you get with the highs, the more pull down
you get with the lows. And that's the experience we
all have. And all I can say is, honestly, I
don't even if I'm allowed to say this with your
team listening, but I listened to what you did send
us with the team with my team, oh, because everyone's

(01:07:50):
fun and everyone loved it, and I was just like,
this is like, you know exactly, just yeah, And it
was it was genuinely that experience where we were listening
to it, and because as we were I was thinking
about the interview, I was thinking about, like I know,
no one's really thinking about this. I mean, for whatever
it's worth, and I think that equilibrium is what we
all need to rise for. It's something I pursued deeply
and focus on, and I found it was only when

(01:08:14):
I could detach equally from the good and the bad totally.
And it was like, if I kept letting the good
pump me up, the bad was always going to hit me.
And so I had to find it and it wasn't
rejecting the good because that also didn't work, because for
a while I tried to like reject good, like how
do you do it? Yeah? If someone was like, well,
I'm still working on it too. I haven't fully figured
it out, but I feel like I'm getting closer all

(01:08:35):
the time. So in the beginning, I was like, same
as what you're saying, someone says something good, amazing, If
someone said something bad, I feel sad. Then I did
the opposite. I was rejecting both. So if someone said
something good, I'd be like, oh whatever, like I don't
need to know, And if someone says something bad, I'd
be like I don't need to know.

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
That's where that's the part I'm at now.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
Yeah, And I was like that doesn't work either, because
now and then and then what I started to realize
was I allowed the good to go in deeper, and
I allowed the bad to almost be filtered more clearer.
And what I mean by that is instead of the
good going to my head and my ego and my
that that kind of like arrogance, it was going to

(01:09:12):
my heart as fuel for like, this is why I
do what I do. So if someone said to me, like, hey,
your work, you know which which you've like your work
helped me to save my marriage or not commit suicide
or whatever it is, I was like, Oh, let me
really access that, Like, don't just take it as like
this yeah buzz yeah, it's like take it, take it
where it lands. And then when you get back, when

(01:09:32):
you get feedback or you get the bad, it's like, oh,
let me not take that to my heart and let
me actually allow that to be like, let me get
the clarity of what could I improve or what could
I work on. So complicated man, but so smart.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
It's subtle.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
It's very subtle, but it's helping. At least I'm not
saying it's the end. I think there's multiple layers to it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
Of course, like letting the good in and I totally
feel that because I think I started to do that
as well. It's like this isn't just like a dopa
meat hit, Like I'm not putting the zin in my
mouth right now. This is like there's something there that's
important that like I have to internalize to help me
do it again and do more of it and like
to kind of like hone in on that specific thing.
But how when someone says something hurtful to you or

(01:10:13):
like I guess it's like hate first criticism or two
different conversations, but like when someone says something hurtful to you,
like how are you taking that in? How do you
let that ink sit just like it can like sit
in my stomach and like makes me feel like shit.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
Oh yeah, I can relate? Is the worst. I think
what I've tried to do is to try and separate
if possible, and not everything is right. It's like if
you've got muddy water, there's mud and water, and my
job is to get the water and remove the mud

(01:10:45):
so that I can give drinking water myself and the
people I love. Yeah, And so my job is to
be a sieve or a filter to be able to
go all right, let me take the mud out, which
is the sting, the pain, the the ego, arrogance, and
see if there's any water left for me to hold right.
And if there is, then that water will actually rest
quite beautifully and perfectly. And now I don't have to

(01:11:07):
take it in. It's something I just have to hold
and make space for. But I'm not gonna hold onto
the mud and the sting and the arrow because that's
the part that pierces through us and breaks us down.

Speaker 1 (01:11:18):
That's really really beautiful, man.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
Yeah, and it takes practice. Like I'm not saying I
do it all the time, and I'm not saying I
don't fail at this all the time, but it's like,
I think that practice has been really helpful because accepting
both didn't work. Rejecting both didn't work. And the Buddha
always talked about the middle path, and it's always like,
if you're gonna hold something, don't hold it too tight,
But then you can't hold it too loosely, So it's like,
how do you hold something just beautifully? It's almost like

(01:11:41):
how you'd hold your wife's hand.

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
I don't want to go from a buddha to golf,
but golf it's like this, So you want to have
like a bird in your hand that you're not going
to crush. We won't get away. That's a Buddha and
that's actually that's fun. Yeah, we got to get you
on the.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
But dude, like if you hold your wife's hand, yeah,
you're not gonna squish it, whereas like she never wants
like you're like, oh, you're never gonna leave, but you're
never gonna hold it softly where you don't have any affection.
It's like, how would I feel like holding my wife's
hand is like a good.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
That's a really good knowledge. I mean, that's a really
brilliant way to do it. I have like really struggled
to accept criticism and like, and I mean any like
hate or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
Dude, me too. And I think there is a difference.
I think you have to.

Speaker 1 (01:12:19):
There's some shit that's just like oh yeah like that.
But even criticism can be hard, like for take it
so hard and like, and I.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
Think it's hard because we don't deeply receive in the
heart the good. Yeah, it's kind of because it's just
the dopamine. Yeah, so it's like we deeply receive the pad.

Speaker 1 (01:12:35):
That's so true. Actually feel right. I think that's why
we like sometimes I watch like these horror movies and
I'm like, oh, man, I hate the part where they're
all like happy in the beginning, and like get to
the part where they're all getting chopped up, you know,
cause that's like what, that's this thing inside of us
that like that feels more like for some people and
for me, it feels more like that's the stuff that
reaches you more because it's painful and scary. Yes I'm

(01:12:57):
not a psycho, but dude, that's really really eye opening
for me. Like, and I want so bad to work
on that and work on accepting the good too. And
I'm like I'm a rejector of the good a lot
of the times because it's like the superstition of like
if I let any good in then like then it'll
all go away. Because I need to be, like I said,
like I need to be in pain. But there's got

(01:13:18):
to be a way, like you said, to like to
take it without it killing me, but with with also
like in a way that I can take the lesson
away from it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:26):
Man.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
No, You've been amazing today, Like truly, I thank you.
I feel like you're the easiest guy to talk to.
You're like so much fun to hang with. Like I'm like,
I hope we get to do this off line, but uh,
me too. We end every episode with a couple of
segments that I want to take you through. These are
fun because you're such a fun loving guy. So now
before you.

Speaker 1 (01:13:58):
Go, I want to say thank you, man, because like
getting to talk about this kind of stuff in this way,
like it's not common for me, and so it really
means a lot, Like and listening to you care about
the questions you're asking the responses. Just for me, it's
been like really cool. And you know, I've listened to
your show and everyone says like this dude's demand and
like you are awesome, and like your intention like into

(01:14:21):
the world for what you're doing is really really special
and right now I need it more than ever. So
thank you, dude, Like for real, you're the ship. Like
I would say this off camera, I'll say it on camera,
like you are awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:14:30):
Bro, thank you mind that that really touched my heart.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
I mean it, dude, I'm proxed.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
I'm practicing what I said earlier, which is really allowing that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
And I'll say something shitty to you.

Speaker 2 (01:14:40):
Yeah, and then I'm gonna try and figure that hot man.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
Thank you, bro. It's no that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:45):
Honestly, that means the word for me coming from you.
And and this is like this hasn't even felt like
an interview for like no, just like honestly, like those
are my favorite conversations where yeah, we've just been talking
and I just talked to you another few hours. I
was like, I know it's over, keep going. I just
want to be mindful of you. These are some fun
segments because you're such a fun loving guy to end with.
And I was like, yeah, this guy's music is so deep,

(01:15:06):
but he's just such a good time.

Speaker 1 (01:15:08):
It's so all right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
These these are two little games that we got and
then we have a final five that we do with
every guest. If you've listened, you'd know, uh, this is
called would you rather all right wave back at someone
who wasn't waving at you? Or tell your server at
a restaurant you too after they tell you enjoy your meal.

Speaker 1 (01:15:25):
Dude. There's nothing in the world worse than waving at
someone that doesn't wave back. He bro, it's got to
be the server one, because they walk right away. The
wave one. They're like they're gonna see that for a
few seconds as they pass you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
That's worse. Oh yeah, oh yeah, Okay, trip and fall
on stage at one of your concerts, or forget the
lyrics to your song while performing on national TV.

Speaker 1 (01:15:43):
I've tripped and falled so many times, tripped and fall
on so many times that people are like almost expecting it.
So I'd say trip tripping and fallowing forgetting worse done.

Speaker 2 (01:15:50):
You just pop right back up. You just got to
get back up and go, dude, that's amazing. Be extremely
self aware or completely oblivious.

Speaker 1 (01:15:58):
When you're just talking about this. Ooh, I want to
say be completely oblivious, but like it would kind of
like spit in the face the conversation. We just I'd
say be completely self aware because there's always room to
You can make yourself a little bit more oblivious if
you want to.

Speaker 2 (01:16:12):
Yeah, send a text by accident to the person you're
talking about, or accidentally like a really old photo was
they're stalking them on Instagram.

Speaker 1 (01:16:20):
Oh it's so tough because the text one could be
terrible depending on what you're saying. But like in the
old photo is like crazy, Like I've had that happen
to me obviously, and like people, dude, what are you
doing the amount of times you must have scrolled to
get to that photo? I think sending a text by accident.
But those are both bad things about that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
Yeah, your dog can talk and has a very strong
personality that clashes with yours. Or your dog can't talk,
but they don't really like you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:43):
That's what I already have, dude, I have German shepherds
who look at me there just like, yeah, you're gonna
play video games again? Another spliff? Great, Like I think
probably dogs that don't like me, because I can convince
myself that they're just like, look, mean, I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
Play around with tiger woods, but you accident hit him
with the ball on the very first hole, Or play
the best game of your life at a fancy country
club but you're alone and can never tell a soul
how good your game was.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
Oh dude, these are really hard, very hard. I think
I would probably curl up a new ball and die
if I hit tiger Woods of the golf ball. I
think I'd have to just play by myself and play well,
which doesn't happen to me anyway. So perfect, so it's.

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
Not really a choice. Yeah, all right, so this game
is called gut reaction. Noah, just complete the sentence. My
favorite compliment to receive is.

Speaker 1 (01:17:29):
I love your shoes. I love getting cup one of
my shoes.

Speaker 2 (01:17:31):
I was actually going to ask you where your shoes
are from when you walked in today, and I waited
because I was like, I need a parent that's happening.

Speaker 1 (01:17:38):
I was genuinely gonna I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
I've been working for shoes with those laces for a while.

Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
Yeah, these are nice.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
Yeah, I want, I want. Yeah, all right, we'll talk
about shoes later. My guilty pleasure artist or a song.

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
Is oh sem me on my way Rusted Route.

Speaker 2 (01:17:52):
Okay, all right. Uh. The most unhinged thought I've had
this week was.

Speaker 1 (01:17:56):
Oh, dude, I was driving and I was had his
untrusive thought where I was like, it's probably like some
most d shit, but I was like I could just
like swerve into that lane and just like everything up. Bro,
Like that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
Thought before isn't crazy. It's so crazy. And then he's like,
wait a minute, why did my brain goes.

Speaker 1 (01:18:10):
You're like, oh Jesus Christ. Then I'm like I'm like,
I'm like rearranging my hands to make sure I'm like
very much staying in my own lane. But that's probably
my craziest one. The hill I will die on for
no reason is mac and cheese is just like not
very good. I think it's like a pretty creatively boring dish,
like literally just wheat and cheese melted. Like I feel
like a caveman probably was the first person made back

(01:18:31):
at cheese, And I think people go a little too
crazy for it. People get too excited. They may get
in such large quantities as well.

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
You and my wife would have a big debate over that.
People really don't like when I say that, Yeah, you
and my wife would. Uh. The weirdest place I've written
a song.

Speaker 1 (01:18:43):
Is I wrote a song in the bathroom of JFK
one time, which was crazy. Yeah, Like it's like I
think I was hungover and I just it just came
to me, and I was like, this would be a
fun story to tell if I finished the song and
I wrote a whole song on my phone. It hasn't
come out, but if it ever does, that'll be a
phone one to tell. Okay, So it's not yeah, yeah,
all right, So taking a ship brother, That's what Scott's
what's gonna be called.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
One thing my wife makes fun of me for is
uh uh.

Speaker 1 (01:19:10):
I like to just sit there and we get these
big bags of a totsiroll and Mini Toots thrill pops,
and I'll sit there in one bite just crunch the
entire thing. I'll do like fifty in a row. She
calls it crunch time, and uh, it's just hilarious because
you just hear my teeth like shattering against the lollipops
and she's like, I think she doesn't. I think she
just hates it. I don't think she makes fun of
it as much. But that's a weird thing that I
do around my wife.

Speaker 2 (01:19:29):
Do you do on purpose? Now?

Speaker 1 (01:19:30):
I just love it, dude, I can't. I'm not the
patient like lick it or whatever. I'm just like, like
my teeth, my incisors do they just destroy that thing?

Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
That's amazing? All right? Which fellow music style would you
call to help you bury a dead buddy?

Speaker 1 (01:19:44):
I'm calling my buddy Nile Horn. I think he I
think he would do it with me.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
Nice. Yeah, but that's a good That's that was quick.
You're like, I know and I would do it. And
the last one of these forgot reaction. First artist you'd
want next to you on a long bus tour ride.

Speaker 1 (01:19:59):
Ooh, oh my god, my buddy Corey Harper. Awesome singer, songwriter,
one of my best friends in the world. And it's
like the funniest man alive.

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
Yeah, amazing, God. Reaction. You were good. That's great.

Speaker 1 (01:20:10):
Yeah, that was fun.

Speaker 2 (01:20:12):
You were really impressive. All right. Final five. We asked
this to every guest who's ever been on the show.
These have to be answered in one word to one sentence, okay,
usually one sentence. First question, what is the best advice
you've ever heard or received?

Speaker 1 (01:20:24):
Beer or your feet are great?

Speaker 2 (01:20:26):
Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard
or received?

Speaker 1 (01:20:30):
Played safe?

Speaker 2 (01:20:31):
Yeah? Question number three, what's something you used to value
that you don't anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:20:36):
I don't value like my physical appearance as much as
I used to.

Speaker 2 (01:20:40):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:20:40):
Yeah, which I could expand.

Speaker 2 (01:20:42):
Yeah, please, oh I can sentence no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
I want you to like I took me a long
time to be comfortable the way I looked, like my face,
the way I look and well, I want to be
healthy and I want to have a better body image.
I don't like need people to think I'm attractive and
that's been the cool thing, just kind of going to
be myself.

Speaker 2 (01:20:57):
That sounds really freeing.

Speaker 1 (01:20:58):
Yeah, it's dope.

Speaker 2 (01:20:59):
That's awesome, man, I love hearing that. A question and before,
what's something that you didn't value that you value now?

Speaker 1 (01:21:06):
My time? I think I was. I value my time
more than I I found my time more than I
ever have. I always wanted to grind so hard and
like be the dog that just like works as hard
or harder than anybody else. And now I'm like so
much like this is my time. I'm gonna do what
makes me feel good in this moment instead of like
feel like I need to be doing a million things.

Speaker 2 (01:21:25):
I love that. And fifth and final question we asked
this every guest on the show. If you could create
one law that everyone in the world had to follow,
what would it be.

Speaker 1 (01:21:33):
That's a great that is a great question. I was
gonna say using your blinker when you turn, but that's
actually already a law and people just don't follow it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:40):
Uh, that's a great answer.

Speaker 1 (01:21:42):
If I could create one law, you are not legally
allowed to post videos of fireworks, Like I'm so tired
of seeing people post videos of like Fourth of July.
I'm like, dude, that looks horrible. No one sees what
you're trying to look at. You're laughing, your hands are shaking, Like,
just enjoy the fireworks, dude, that's hilaris. We've never had
that in the history of the show. That's a great

(01:22:04):
It's like I might actually like that. I might need
to like start petitioning for that to become a real loss.

Speaker 2 (01:22:08):
I love it. No, are you such a good time?
I hope you. I hope you genuinely felt seen and
heard today on the show. I hope you felt you
got to share in a safe space what you're going
through and really did me you know, and I long
may discontinue. I hope you'll come back. I hope you'll
do a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:22:22):
More of this, dude totally. And yeah, let's go play
pickleball or something some time. I love to hang out
the outside of it. And I appreciate being on the show.
It's really really cool experience and very helpful. And hopefully
people hear this and uh yeah, like we both want
feel heard. So thank you man, thank you man, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
If this is the year that you're trying to get creative,
you're trying to build more. I need you to listen
to this episode with Rick.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
Rubin, follow your own inner guide. It directs us. It
might not make it might not make sense to us,
might not make sense anyone else.

Speaker 2 (01:22:53):
Certainly won't make sense anyone else.

Speaker 1 (01:22:55):
And that's okay. It's fine.

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Jay Shetty

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