Pod Meets Twirl'd: Surviving the Challenges with Myles Nye

One of the guys’ favorite parts of Survivor is the challenges, no matter how many coconuts are required! So Will and Rider are talking to the one of the masterminds BEHIND the games, challenge creator Myles Nye!

Myles reveals how he landed the greatest job on TV, but why he and Rider go WAY back!

We also hear about some of Myles’ favorite all-time games, and some failed experiments that will never see the light of day.

So join us in the puzzle lab and learn how your favorite challenges are created, right here on Pod Meets Twirl’d: Seeking Immunity!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to Bud meets Twirled, a podcast that once chronicled
two guys who had never seen Dance with the Stars,
but we watched a season and walked away experts. From there,
we ventured into Traders, a show I'd never seen but
Will swore he could win. And now we turned to
Survivor Season fifty, the big One. This time the roles
are reversed. Will has seen exactly one season, the first one. Meanwhile,

(00:30):
I've watched for years. We are Wilfred Ll, who prefers
his wilderness with room service, and Right or Strong, who
will hike any mountain but hates the beach. Two best friends,
one devoted to the comforts of civilization, one who would
never leave the woods if he could. Both reality competition
scholars join us as we dive into alliances, Blindside's fire making,
sand related and misery, and twenty five years of television

(00:52):
history culminating in a single massive season. This is pod
meets Twirld seeking immunity.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
I get chills, I know every time chills. Every time
with the intro, I get chills.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
I think our intro maybe is more exciting than season fifty.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
I don't know, but you got my immunity, idol, boomerang,
and that's all I gotta say.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
All right, Well, so today we have a very special
guest special episode because I mentioned on one of our
previous episodes that I had a connection to a guy
who had made Survivor challenges before designed them, tested them.
I didn't really know what I was talking about because
I had not seen this person in years, maybe since

(01:35):
I was a teenager. I cannot remember the yes. So
here's the story. This is Miles Nye, who is now
going to be on our show because he actually reached
out and you know, contacted me and said, hey, thanks
for the shout out. I would love to come on
your show and tell you about what I've done for Survivor.
And I'm so excited to see this guy.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
I have not.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
So this is going back to acting class in Berkeley
when I was I think twelve years old.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
This was. If you remember, my first manager slash acting
coach was Bruce Decott when I was cast on Boy
Meets World.

Speaker 4 (02:09):
He was still my manager and he would he would.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
The way I met him was he ran acting classes
in Berkeley and they were just really good acting classes.
So the word got out so as I started, you know,
doing theater and stuff. By the time I was ten
or eleven, I got invited to join Bruce's acting class.
We would drive all the way down to Berkeley, which
is like an hour from where I grew up, an
hour and a half from where I grew up, and
on Sundays we would do these four hour acting classes,

(02:33):
and Miles was in one of my classes. I actually
think it might have been later, because I would go
back and take classes even when Boy.

Speaker 4 (02:40):
Mets World was going on. I would still go to
classes in Berkeley.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
So I might have been thirteen fourteen, But realistically I
think I was between the ages of ten and thirteen,
and Miles was the funniest improviser in the class. H yes,
and you know, this is a class that was most
we've seen work. But we would do improv sketches or
improv work, and he killed and I just remembered him

(03:06):
being the most funny, inventive, very smart guys. It makes
perfect sense to me to predict that Miles has become
a professional improviser and professional game designer. That makes perfect sense.
So I can't wait to see him again. I may
have run into him, I think I might have run
into him in my twenties. Well, i'll ask him if he.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
How do we know? How did you know he started
doing this?

Speaker 1 (03:27):
Because it was a Facebook connection, Like we reconnected over
online at some point, and I saw that he had
done the Survivor things, and maybe we sent emails back
and forth back then or whatever. But I remember just
being like, that's so cool because I've just got into Survivor.
But I think and then I think, yeah, we might
have run into I'll ask him. But but anyway, I'm
just so thrilled that, you know, this connection that I
had with a fellow acting class attendee as a teenager

(03:51):
has resulted in our latest guest. Please welcome Miles nine Miles.
You look exactly the same except facial hair.

Speaker 5 (04:03):
I'm exactly the same. You look exactly the same.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
Oh, it's so good to see you again.

Speaker 5 (04:07):
Man, this is wild.

Speaker 3 (04:08):
I imagine you look the same, but this is the
first time I'm seeing you, so I don't know.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
So I was trying. I was in your intro. I
gave no intro to any of your official credits because
I actually don't know many of them. So we're going
to talk about that. But what I did tell everybody
listening and Will is that we go all the way
back to acting class. And I can't remember what year
it was, but I was definitely a teenager.

Speaker 4 (04:29):
We were like, what thirteen? Maybe most do you remember?

Speaker 5 (04:33):
Yeah, I was trying. I was asking myself the same
question because like, I don't care if we never get
to the episode of Survivor, I want to do the
lore of me and Writer because I remember you. And
it was a listener, one of your listeners, who is
Jessica Frey, who is like a pillar of the Survivor

(04:55):
podcast community, like she's the best of us, and and
she was the one who reached out to me and said,
they said your name on the show. And of course
I remember being in class with you, Writer. I remember
a lot from those days, but the fact that you
remembered me really tickled me, and oh yeah made me

(05:19):
feel all warm and fuzzy.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
And dude, we bonded back then. I was telling Will,
you were the funniest, best improviser in the entire class.
And I remember looking up to you because I you know,
I did scene work, but I was never a good
improviser and that was like not my skill set. And
you were one of the first kids because we were kids.
I remember being like, oh god, he's as good as
the people that are on Like what was the one
improv show that we had?

Speaker 5 (05:43):
Whose line is it?

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Anyway?

Speaker 1 (05:44):
Whose line is it? Anyway? That was the only access
we had to watch an improv back then. And I
remember him being like, Miles is like he can really
do this.

Speaker 5 (05:51):
So like I.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
And also I just remember getting along with you and
thinking you were so cool.

Speaker 5 (05:55):
So I thought you were so cool and so kind.
And it was such a treat to get to watch
you do work because we were doing scenes. Our teacher
was Bruce Ducott and he had sides from the Wizard.
Uh and uh and and so you know, I got

(06:16):
to I got to see you, you know, do signs
and do monologues, and it was such a treat. And
I remember your brother, I remember Shiloh, and I remember
all this stuff about you, and I, you know, have
been you know, rooting for your career and your work
and and uh. I went to go see Cavin Fever
in theater's way back and say like I felt like

(06:36):
ownership of writer because you were such you were such
a good guy, our you know, such a good guy,
and we were all, you know, when we had a
break and we'd step out through the doors of the
Julia Morgan Theater and go across the street to the
little market and like spend some pocket money on candy.
You know, you were there, and Larissa Alaynik was there, right,

(06:58):
Alex Mack, Yeah, and you guys were TV stars, but
together we were just kids getting candy at the store, right,
and you know, having you there as a you know,
as an emblem of success, it made all of us
excited to work with Bruce and keep you know, keep
doing work totally.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
Okay, So that's what I was trying to I was like, yeah,
I think it was actually wild, blowing me to world
that already started. So I was older, okay, Yeah, we
were closer to like fifteen sixteen then, okay, cool. Yeah's
so that's how I remember it. I was like, but
we was up in Berkeley, so why was I I
must have it must have been off season of the show.
I don't know, but yeah, it was, it's crazy, okay, cool.

Speaker 5 (07:36):
Yeah, yeah, I think you were commuting and even you know,
I saw you on the Julie Andrews sitcom like way
back in the day. Yeah. I watched that because I
was like, it's it's writer's show, you know.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
Okay, so so cool.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Okay, so let's hear let's hear your your your post
acting class life? You went to UCLA.

Speaker 5 (07:56):
Yeah, but first I have at least one more question, well,
probably more. Do you remember the lemon drop scene from
Bruce's classes?

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Want a lemon drop?

Speaker 5 (08:07):
Sure?

Speaker 4 (08:07):
Yeah? The generic scene?

Speaker 5 (08:09):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (08:10):
Oh got wait what is the lemon drop scene?

Speaker 1 (08:12):
You're looking dot dot dot?

Speaker 4 (08:14):
Well or right? That was like one of the last.

Speaker 5 (08:16):
Sorry I can't say the same for you. That's the life. Yes, yeah, Hi, hello,
want a lemon drop? What? What a lemon drop? Yeah?
I remember this that? Yes?

Speaker 1 (08:26):
Will you might have done this too, because well because
Bruce actually taught classes out of my loft in downtown
LA when we were older, when we were like seventeen
or eighteen. So what he would do is he would
have a generic scene, which is literally just a one
page scene where you like, it was just that, like
literally the dialogue, Hi, Hi, how are you good? Want
a lemon dropped it?

Speaker 4 (08:46):
And so the whole point was can you make a
scene out of this by making choices?

Speaker 3 (08:50):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Interesting, I think we must have done it.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, I think we did, because it's one of those
like standard Bruce, like day one of classing makes everyone
do this and were you all memorize the scene because
you have to watch everybody go up in pairs and
do it and try and make a different but not
change a single word. I love that.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Lemon drop scene.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Okay. I also remember he used to do we'd have
to do an improv scene where we would each only
be able to say one word.

Speaker 4 (09:16):
Remember the words that hard ark and lug wrench.

Speaker 5 (09:18):
Of course, it's so fun.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
I still use that like I've used those too, Like
I've done that where I'm like, we're, you know, teaching
kids or whatever, and I'm doing and I'll say hard
vark and lugrens. Those are right two go toos.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Oh, I love that good time. I want a lemon
drop with an artwork.

Speaker 5 (09:37):
Don't forget your lug wrench.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
You gotta go get your lug rench.

Speaker 5 (09:40):
Never forget.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Okay, So you stayed, you stayed in theater acting world.

Speaker 5 (09:45):
Yes, I went to u C. L A. And I
was in the Ray Bouldry Musical Theater program there and
I trained to be a stage actor and so I
stuck around in l A and did the working actor
thing for a bit and auditioned and was I worked
and the and I got involved in this other kind
of work, and I stepped away from acting completely and

(10:08):
I went into business, except that I kept my hand.
I did keep my hand in improv because it is
a big part of just my essence, like totally.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
And so much yeah and so much fun.

Speaker 5 (10:20):
Yeah. So I played with the Comedy Sports team in
LA for like seventeen years, and then I play with
the San Jose team since I moved back to Berkeley.
Eight were jumping around. But eight years ago we moved
to Berkeley and my wife, doctor Laurel, was pregnant with
our second child. We wanted to have children in the
Bay Area, that's where I grew up with At the

(10:41):
time that writer and I were in class, I was
living in the Oakland Hills. I was in LA for
almost twenty years. But you know, my parents are here,
my wife's parents are here. We wanted our children to
have a Bay Area childhood and not an LA childhood.
That that was important to us. I get it so
doing improv. But then just since it's it's so funny
that we reconnected that you remembered back in those days,

(11:04):
Like yes, when I was very new to things like
the short form games, the viola spowl and games, the
who's lines in anyway games, there was an affinity there, right,
Like that was a key in a lock for me.
And that's that's always been the case. So just since
January of this year, I've joined two new teams in
Berkeley and in Oakland, and I'm doing improv on stage

(11:25):
in my hometown. Yeah, for the first time since I
was at the Julia Morgan with you. Wow. So it's
just so funny, that so cool here we are talking
talking on your podcast today.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, it's so crazy to me how improv Like, you know,
back when we were doing it, like it was like
an exercise side thing, but like now it's like the
central thing that actors need to be able to do
to come up as an actor, like if you like,
it's basically the training grounds for everybody nowadays. It's like
that's the that's how you become known as an actors
by doing improv.

Speaker 4 (11:56):
It's so I think it's great.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
You know, because like I don't feel like I ever
got comfortable enough with it to like like I would
never do it now, like I would never go I
got asked to do it once and I was the monologuist,
you know where I just went up and like took
a suggestion and then just monologue and even that, like
after I did three and they had you know, the
team had then done improvs based on my monologues. I
was sitting backstage. I was like, I have to do

(12:18):
a fourth one. Oh God, and I was like I
can't do it. And then luckily the show ended. I
was like, thank God, because if I had to go
out there and like do it again, I think I
would have just died. I just I just was like,
this is it. I'm gonna die. I'm just gonna walk
out and scry tell them I can't do it. I
have a panic attack. So I don't know.

Speaker 4 (12:34):
I've never done real improv before.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
But I'm so glad that you stuck with it and
that you you still do it. Man, that's so great.
I want to come see you. I want to.

Speaker 5 (12:42):
Yeah, I'm in a show Saturday night in Berkeley, and
then I'm I'm first Sunday of every month in Oakland
is my musical team. We're doing songs and.

Speaker 4 (12:53):
Oh my God, you do musical stuff, dude, that's great. Okay,
So I'm sorry, did.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
You say you moved up there? Because is your wife's name,
doctor Laura?

Speaker 5 (13:02):
Is there, doctor Laurel?

Speaker 2 (13:05):
I was like, okay, did he marry doctor Laura? Okay?

Speaker 5 (13:09):
I don't know her?

Speaker 4 (13:12):
Okay, So then how what is the survivor connection and
how did this all come about?

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (13:16):
So the business that I alluded to is actually not
far afield from my affinity for theater while I was
at UCLA and really like, you know, indulging in the artist,
you know, undergrad you know, non conservatory experience, liberal arts
and the right. Yeah, I got really interested because you know,

(13:38):
this affinity for improv games and the kind of work
that was interesting in UCLA involved games and playful theater.
Today we'd call it immersive, but this was actually before
that was a buzzword. But the kind of program where
participant and spectator is not so clearly delineated. I got
a job on Craigslist posting with a technology based company

(14:00):
in San Francisco called The Go Game that was selling
scavenger hunt experiences to corporate groups in c and I
worked as an in game personality. But they got to
know me and they had me host their programs, and
in time I was running all the events in southern California.
After a certain point of learning with that business, I

(14:21):
went into business for myself with a friend of mine, Greg,
and that was my first time going to business. My company,
Wise Guys Events, is still what I do full time
to this day. We create that awesome, playful experiences for professionals,
so companies hire us for an off site retreat. I

(14:41):
do run team building programs, but I like to tell
people I've been in business since two thousand and nine
and never done a single trust fall. I was gonna say, yeah,
if you want to believe me, believe me. I know
that when I show up to the forced Fun event,
the people there go, uh, oh is this going to be?
But my specialty is new games people haven't seen before,

(15:06):
and they're interesting enough that I get past that apprehension
that it's gonna be cheesy. I leverage the spirit of competition.
There's a wittiness and a sense of humor to the
work that also draws people in. And you know, I'm
not always the host, we have other people doing the work.
But having that showmanship as well as the games being interesting.

(15:28):
That's kind of part of our secret sauce. So I've
been doing game design work since the two thousands, and
I was a big fan of Survivor in its first summer,
and I, like a lot of people, had like a
group of friends that we watch the show with every
week and we don't know who's gonna win, but it's
not gonna be Richard hash haha.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Right.

Speaker 5 (15:47):
I was a big fan of the show, and I
really enjoyed the challenges because there were a year. You know,
we saw so many different challenge types. Will you're we
were mostly accustomed to the new era. When the challenges
are you're seeing less of the well, it's all new
to you.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
I'd get I did that first season, that was it.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
I did nake a guy, and I think part of
second season when the guy fell on the fire and
that was all.

Speaker 5 (16:14):
And if you were to rewatch those episodes, what you
would notice is the challenges would have things like the
relay race through the woods, but the starting line and
finish line was a piece of driftwood that they'll just
put their foot on and said, ready, set go. When
you watch the episodes, now, the pageantry and the bunting
and the spectacle of the challenges. I like it. I

(16:35):
liked that there's that much of the money on the screen.
But at the time, what was interesting to me was
the variety of game play that I saw on Survivor,
and I would like, stare into space. You know, I
was doing game design work, and I was like, huh,
I wonder what I would do if I were riffing
on the challenges and I sent a cold call email

(16:58):
to the Challenge. Now, this man, John Kerroffer, gave me
my first job designing games for television and changed my life,
and not just mine. If you go to the official
CBS Instagram account, it should still be up. They recently
posted a day that they captured on the set of
Survivor fifty where John, who has in common with Jeff

(17:20):
Probst and no one else that they were there season one,
episode one in Borneo and are still working on the
show today. And Jeff's job has changed. He started as
the host, he grew into showrunner. Her Offer was the
challenge captain on the first day, and he has overseen

(17:41):
every reward and every show and every episode. No one
in television has done what he's done. There are people
who work on prices right, who have seen and you
know those games. It's a dependable bag of tricks. But
there's not a day one professional who shaped the show
from the outside. And he didn't have a passport when

(18:03):
he got the job on Survivor's season one, no one
knew it was and he had to get a passport
in order to go. So on this instagram that I
watched recently, there were fifty just the numbers, just a coincidence,
fifty people on the crew who got their start working
for John on the Dream Team, which we can talk
about it as the young people who practice the challenges,

(18:24):
but not just that. They assist the art department. They
are hands on working. Is it is. It's in some
ways it's like a PA job, but it's like nothing else.
It's the Dream teamers. They report to John. He is
their honest, hardworking captain who they all look up to
and want to impress, and many of them have gone
on to work in TV on Survivor, on other shows.

(18:46):
There are segment producers and people, you know, topline people
who got their start working for John on the Dream Team,
and fifty of them gathered to give him his flowers
and recognize everything he's done for the debt. I watched that.
Now I was watching the screen, I was like, it's
not just people on the beach. There are a lot
of people who owe their start to Kerhoffer, and I'm

(19:07):
one of them. When I look back on the people
like Bruce, our acting teacher, and John Kerhoffer, people who
looked at me, who gave me a chance, who said
I think if we give this guy some space, he
can really bring some pleasure and some delight. And I
get chills talking about the influence that they've had on me.
So I can never thank John enough. He's become a

(19:28):
personal friend. He's met my children, we've dined together, and
you know, I'll get it. So but it all began
with a cold call email that I said, and I said,
I'm a big fan of the show. I have some
ideas about challenges. I'm in LA. Could we get a
cup of coffee or I don't think I even said that,
you know, I said I'd love to talk sometime. And

(19:50):
he called me and he said, hello, Miles, is John Keroffer.
I got your email. I don't understand. Do you want
a job? Was like, is that on the table.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
Is that a thing? I wanted a meal?

Speaker 5 (20:06):
But I went in and I interviewed, and I pitched
some ideas and some idea that there was one idea
that I pitched when I walked in the room that
was on the next season of Survivor. They went after that.
The first season that I had challenges on was season
fifteen Survivor China was when the first show that had
my work, and then season sixteen, which was Fans Versus Favorites,

(20:31):
and the first episode of that season had a challenge
that I had pitched the first time I walked in
the room. So they hired me as a consult What
was it?

Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah, I'm so curious, how you is it?

Speaker 5 (20:41):
Like?

Speaker 2 (20:41):
All right, so there's this big ball rolling down the face?

Speaker 5 (20:45):
Say that again?

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Oh no, is that what it was?

Speaker 5 (20:49):
That's gold? You've got the goods. It was not a
big rolling ball, but it was so okay. The A
lot of this just comes back to improv because I
think the gift, as you know, of improv, the gift
we give each other is that we yes and and
we take the idea and we draw it out and

(21:10):
we iterate it and go, if this is true, what
else is true. So Survivor episodes that I watched as
purely a fan before I worked on the show had
a gag called Crystal Ladder where the rungs of the
ladder are different shapes on each side and they only
fit in the vertical pieces one way. So it's a

(21:30):
ladder that's a puzzle, a practical prop that's a puzzle.
So you build the ladder rung by rung. With each
piece you place, you've got one fewer wrong rung to
choose from around the ragamuffin riz God reacted and so

(21:54):
they did that in several seasons, and then in I
think season thirteen, they did puzzle boats. There were these
big wooden pontoons and three shapes that they had to
interlock and then get on them and row okay, and
I had this kind of aha moment, Oh, crystal ladder.
I didn't know what it was called that at the time,

(22:14):
but I was like, the ladder with the puzzle rungs
isn't a one off, It's a category practical props you
can make into puzzles. And then I pretended it was
a list and I, yes, handed if one is ladder
and two his boat, what could three be and I
was like, how about wagon wheels? And the idea I

(22:35):
pitched was that they would put together wagon wheels and
they would form four wheels, push them onto a cart,
push the cart through the jungle, and then take the
puzzle pieces apart and use them to put together a
winch that they would turn and crank a thing, so
like the props had utility in more than one station.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Oh that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Cool, thank you, and you're hired. Wow, that's great. So
you pitch, you pitch that, and like a bunch of
others and I.

Speaker 5 (23:11):
Just, you know, I tried to, you know, I dropped
a lot of like I was a big survivor nerd.
I still am, you know, in terms of like, oh,
I'll quote who was from what hometown and what their
profession was, and you know, all the the kind of
thing where there are plenty of people walking around who
can tell you, you know, the starting lineup for the
Cardinals from nineteen seventy one, and nobody's like, oh that.

(23:33):
I mean, I guess that would be pretty deep. But like,
you know, we all know some sports nerds who can
quote chapter and verse, and I'm kind of I'm a
bit I'm rather like that with Survivor, and so I
dropped references in my interview that made it clear that like,
I'm a big fan and you know, in the room,

(23:54):
again the improv skills come into play. You know, I
riff and I you know, I'm pretty, I'm a good interviewed.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah, you're good in the room.

Speaker 5 (24:01):
Yeah, I'm good in the room. I'm easy to get
along with, you know. So, so John hired me as
a consultant and for years he's drawn from different backgrounds
and he puts together like kind of a small writer's room.
Work I do is in pre production and is stateside.
John is responsible for every aspect, so he goes on

(24:25):
location early and is supervising and play testing and is
responsible for a lot of things. But what's so great
about the consulting work is I just come in with
ideas and go, oh, what if we built an enormous bowl,
and I don't have to do it right. So that's
that's what I That's one of the things I really

(24:47):
like about it. But getting together in the room, it's
like any writer's room with a dry erase board and
no pens that work, and you know, we there's cards
on the wall just like you've seen any writer's room
or like shows set behind the scenes. We've got the
number of episodes and we've got to fill a grid

(25:07):
with reward and immunity challenges based on number of tribes
and number of players.

Speaker 4 (25:13):
Wow, are there other considerations?

Speaker 1 (25:29):
Like I'm sure there's a ton, but like, are there
parameters that you kind of go into a given season with,
Like we need to be more puzzle based, we need
to be more physical, we need to be I don't know,
more water less water. I mean, are there those kinds
of things happening? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (25:44):
Yeah, pretty much every one of those. There are. Sometimes
it's kind of reactive, like, oh, this fluky thing happened
in the like there was there was one spelling challenge
in season seven where they played kind of uh.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
Oh god, I'd be kicked off the island right away.
I l LA and island.

Speaker 5 (26:06):
Yeah, they played some kind of it was like spelling
the game, and they awarded the immunity to a guy
and then they all left. And then this was in
the episode because this is before I worked for the show.
They brought everybody back. They had adjudicated wrong a word
he'd spelled wrong. They had counted as right, And so
after that they were like, that's it, no more spelling challenges.
I was like, guys, you can have the official Scrabble

(26:29):
players Dictionary with you on site, and like you don't
show this on camera, but just go if it's not
in here, it's not a word. And they were like,
there's an official Scrabble Player's dictionary. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm a nerd. But things like yeah, more water less water.
So much depends, you know, on the in Fiji where
there's taping season fifty, they've been for years and years.

(26:51):
When they used to go to different locations, they go,
we've got this lagoon, it's got crystal clear water. We
have to do last gasp. It's this classic immunity challenge,
but you can't do it if there's more than the
tiniest bit of surf. Meanwhile, we've got a challenge where
they're on these floating dog houses that are anchored to

(27:11):
the ocean floor, and we want big breakers because it's
a balanced challenge that happens in the middle of the ocean.
So the location team and the art team and the
safety team and the aquatic team all work hand in
hand to support the challenge team, all of which is
really there to support the drama, you know, the challenge department.

(27:34):
It's kind of like sometimes I think about a delicious
sausage pizza, which I absolutely love, but you're right, a
good slice of sausage pizza, that sausage itself is like
a big piece of work and then it just gets
chopped up and it's put on the pizza with the
cheese and the tomato, and it's part of the whole,
part of the whole thing. The challenges are there to

(27:55):
make the contestants fight. That's what's supposed to happen, right,
the challenges, So we make the whole grid is a
beautiful sausage, but that sausage is an ingredient on the pizza,
and the pizza is the drama of the reality show.
So when I say when I design games for reality TV,
I make things that are gonna make people fight. But

(28:18):
when I design games for corporate groups, I want games
that make people work together. No, well, we'll that's the wrong.
It was an easy one. We'll just know. And to.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Welcome everybody from Smith Klein this weekend. By the time
you leave, you're gonna hate each other.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
It's a different type of corporate retreat, just like turn
everybody into the animals. I want to go the Lord
of the flyes, corporate.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
Person standing corporate retreat.

Speaker 5 (28:49):
People jump to those conclusions when you say, you know,
they never make a show or a movie about a
game master who isn't causing deaths.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
Well, yeah, it's like hunger games.

Speaker 5 (29:01):
The Hunger games. Willy Wonka, Like, uh, you know, the
game master is always player one, game player one. Why
can't it be you know, why why why can't there
be a benevolent game master who's a hippie from Berkeley?

Speaker 3 (29:15):
You know, like, you know, because even the benevolent game
master is designing games that make people fight.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
That's the Butt's the point, and.

Speaker 5 (29:23):
The people who fight. And I think about this a
lot because I'm a big fan of Survivor. But like,
has it on the whole been a good thing for society.
I don't know that if I'm qualified to comment, But
the important thing is that, yes, we're making them fight
and putting them in these difficult circumstances. But they came willingly.
Everybody who's playing Survivor consented to come to a game

(29:43):
with treachery and sometimes being humiliated. They consented. The people
who came on the work retreat work for a company
and they will be there. They were strongly compelled to
be there, and I want them to leave, and they're like,
this is it's a job. I mean, they their job.
It sucks.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
I've never been on anything like that, but I can't
imagine it. Yeah, So, I mean, this is something I
wanted to ask about when you're talking about doing like
the scavenger ons and stuff too. But I imagine your answer
will probably come from one of these corporate retreats. What
is like, who has been the worst participant you've ever read?

Speaker 5 (30:19):
Like?

Speaker 1 (30:19):
Have you had somebody who just just just just wrote
I'm done, I'm done?

Speaker 5 (30:24):
What is it?

Speaker 1 (30:24):
What did they do?

Speaker 5 (30:25):
And I don't even have to think twice? Oh?

Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yes, good story.

Speaker 5 (30:31):
This was a nobody's listening to this, right, I'm just kidding.
It was a hospitality group and this was some years ago.
And when I went there, I said, you know, the
person who had hired me, who had been my contact
on the phone. They said, hello, Miles, it's so good
to see you. And I said, hello Sam, And this

(30:52):
is Susie and this is mister Jones and mister Jones
was the boss, and everybody else went by first name,
but mister Jones was called mister Jones. And then we
did a I had been hired actually to teach a
improvisation for professionals workshop where I not to get people
to do We didn't. We don't play party quirks when

(31:14):
I teach this workshop to corporate groups. But we focus
on skills like the yes and toolbox, getting on the
same page in a hurry, and why that would be
important in the workplace. So this is another way that
my playfulness in the professional world is how I ply
my trade. Okay, So I was doing an improv workshop
and we're doing a warm up game called wad Ball.

(31:36):
I love this game. So I start and I take
a brown paper shopping bag and I crumple it up
and I wrap painter's tape around it. And it's this lumpy, unattractive,
uneven ball, but it is bespoke and it is an artifact.
And I tell the players, like it's sentimental of me,
but like this group only is doing this this one

(31:56):
time with this one ball, and it's just a piece
of junk, but it's special. The object of the game
is to hit the ball with an open hand, keep
it from hitting the ground, and say the first letter
of the alphabet will A. That is correct. Okay, so
Will's off the blocks. The next person to hit the ball.
It can't be the same person two times in a row.

(32:18):
They open hand, hit it up and say B. And
the object of the game is to get to.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Z without the ball dropping.

Speaker 5 (32:24):
If the ball hits the foot, you've got it exactly right. Will.
You're off the blocks now you're really picking up ahead
of steam. If the ball hits the ground, you start
over again with A. And what usually happens is the
group tries something for a while, and then usually people
will go something like, hey we're too spread out, or
hey we need to spread out more, or hey can

(32:45):
we plan to pass it around? And talking to each
other and planning is not just allowed, it's the real
reason the play. Right. So this is where it's actually
really fun for me, as the benevolent game master who's
a HITPI from Berkeley. I have taught them the rules.
I step back and I close my mouth, and they
succeed or fail, and whether they get to Z or not,

(33:09):
it's something that we debrief. That's the whole point of
the way. So something that commonly happens is that instead
of just the person hitting the ball saying the letter,
everybody kind of chance, it's not required, but especially if
it's getting well and you hear the volume, and yeah,

(33:35):
that picture this group of hospitality professionals and this is
not the first game we did. We uh, this is
a chanting group. And I think that's great. There's absolutely
it's it's good to see. It means that they're locked in, right,
and everybody's chanting a B C, but not mister Jones.
He's chanting with them, but he's saying one, two, three,

(33:59):
and everyone else in the room is saying the alphabet.
But mister Jones, who's a big brain, has intuitive that
it's really no different than counting from one to twenty six.
So rather than fit in with everyone else on his team, ah,
he's just marching to the beat of his own drum.
And I will say that during the debrief I comment

(34:22):
on this. I always start the debrief by giving a
lot of space and saying what did you see? What
did you notice? It's the most important.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Oh you didn't call out mister Jones, did you?

Speaker 5 (34:30):
Miles not from the jump but I did call out
mister Jones, and I said things we noticed and observed.
I couldn't help but notice it. Everyone in the room
was saying ABC, and mister Jones, you were saying one, two, three,
And he said exactly what I thought he'd say, which
is like, well, it's really no different than counting from
one to twenty six. And I said, well no, but

(34:51):
I noticed that everybody else was on the same page. Now,
this client did bring me back for repeat engagement, and
I kept notes, so I knew, even though it had
been some months, I knew which games I had done
and which I had not done. And so I came
back with a new roster of games and I greeted
everybody and I said good afternoon, mister Jones, and he said,
you can call me dan Ah. It works.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
Is awesome.

Speaker 5 (35:18):
I fixed that company.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
Thank you very much.

Speaker 5 (35:23):
It works out. It was dan Enron Jones.

Speaker 3 (35:29):
Okay, so I have one of the things that writer
is telling me as I'm trying to get into Survivor,
and we've all agreed that I'm coming in on a
season that isn't perfect for somebody who doesn't know Survivor already.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
So that's on me. I get that, I totally understand.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
But one of the things that I do like, and
it's one of the things that writers specifically pointed out,
is that all the challenges seem to be geared towards
It takes the whole team, so you know, so you
don't just have to be strong, you don't just have
to be smart. You need kind of people that can
do every little bit. Like writer said, Hey, if I
was going to go on Survivor, the thing I would
do is just untie knots all day and figure out

(36:04):
keys and.

Speaker 4 (36:04):
Locks, keys and locks and knots.

Speaker 3 (36:06):
So did you notice when you started as a consultant
working for them in season fifteen, did you notice a
change in the games from kind of pure strength or
endurance to more of the kind of cunning and it
takes a village way of finishing or I mean, have
you seen kind of the evolution of the game as

(36:28):
the game has gone on or is it just kind
of business as usual as you're as you're deciding what
to do every week.

Speaker 5 (36:35):
There have definitely been eras and changes. There used to
be a lot more challenge There was a time where
there were a lot of challenges that were just brawn
and they'd be these one on one duels. So you know,
they have this floating arena on the water and they
give them these American gladiator cushions. Yes, and you put

(36:59):
up your you put Jonathan, you put up Joe. They're
going to go in the ring and they're going to
try to push each other into the drink.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
That's great.

Speaker 5 (37:05):
Oh yeah, they they did it and did it, and
you know, from a design perspective, I wasn't as interested
in the combat challenges. But there was a guy, Dan
Mundy who worked in the art department and survivor for
many years and came up with great challenges. And he
was somebody who you know, inspired me to do my

(37:27):
best work because he seemed very effortlessly to come up
with terrific ideas a challenge he did that had its
heyday and then fell out of favor because it was
physical combat was called kicking and screaming. So will you
and I are on opposite tribes, and three people from
my tribe, no, one person from your tribe hugs a pole,

(37:48):
and one person from my tribe hugs a pole, and
then two people from the opposing tribe try to pull
you off the pole and drag you.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Oh god, so it's like human capture the flag.

Speaker 5 (37:59):
And if I wriggle, I could run back to my
pole and hug it again.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
Are you allowed to kick and thrash and throw punches essentially?

Speaker 5 (38:08):
So throwing punches no, and choking no. What Jeff would
say is, here's what's against the rules. But also, you
are playing with these people ultimately to reward you for
a million dollars. So how do you want to get
when it comes to scrapping? Should that should influence your thing?

Speaker 2 (38:28):
I want to see that season.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
It's got brutal. That was one of the I remember
telling you Will that there were times when it used
to just be like, oh my god, you're just.

Speaker 4 (38:35):
Watching people like fight.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah, basically like drag each other through the sand or
drag each other through the water, and it gets really
for me. I was less interested. I'm like you, Miles, like,
I like it when there's like a distributed a distribution
of skills, and no, I like that. I don't know something, Yeah,
because it just was it's just kind of brutal. You're
just like, yeah, these are people gonna they'll do anything
to get that one to survive.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
It's almost like that was the title of the show.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
Right, So I guess to you to you know, to
your point will as far as like, if you because
you like the show to be more brutal, you like
the show to.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
Be a little I don't brutal is not the right word,
because again I also think that is would be unfair
for you know, a very slight man or some of
the smaller women, where it's just like, hey, we're going to.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
Fight and see who wins.

Speaker 3 (39:19):
That that doesn't seem like that's particularly sporting or fair.

Speaker 5 (39:22):
Right.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
That's why I do like the balance of the of
the games nowadays. I like how it's one of the
things I've enjoyed is Okay, you know, you might need
Jonathan to throw you up this wall, but once you
get up there, you then have to do something very
precise with keys or throw a hook or something that
takes everybody. So I like the idea that they all
have to work together as a team. But I would
also like to see the earlier seasons where there is

(39:43):
some some of that kind of I think it's more
about the surviving of the And again I talked about
this last week with Rob where it was He's like, yeah, people,
the true fans of the show, they've seen that. It's
kind of been there, dumb, which is what you were
saying right or to where it's like we've seen people fish,
we've seen people's gale the fish and make the fire
and tend the fire and all the's like we kind
of did that, and the real Survivor fans stuck with

(40:05):
the show, so we're past that now. They just want
to see the cattiness and the backstabbing and what they
call gameplay, which to me is I call high school cafeteria.
So yeah, I mean I get it, but no, I
do like the balance of the games that I think
it's interesting to see the whole team.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
I have a question, Miles, and this is kind of
a weird one, but like I'm curious about, you know
how like there's a there's a particular style to the game,
so to the challenges like the you know what objects
are allowed, like metals allowed would but like so I'm
wondering do you guys have just like a bible or
discussion about that. I was sort of like thinking out

(40:54):
how it's like how fantasy, like high fantasy is defined
by like we don't allow gun tops, right, Like that's
kind of like the limit of technology, and if you
have gunpowder or oil then it's like that, it's so what,
how do you guys figure that out or do you
have like a definition or is it just a by
feel well.

Speaker 5 (41:14):
I mean that's what's so amazing about having Kerhoffer as
like the Wizard of the Department because to the extent, yeah,
there are like guidelines you'll never see an external mechanism
causing a part of the game to move. Anything in
a challenge that moves is human operated or gravity operating, right.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
Oh, yeah, of course, because even I'm thinking there's like
the pinball one where they have to keep the balls
going through the thing, but it's they put it in there. Yeah,
it's always right.

Speaker 5 (41:44):
Human powered or gravity powered. And for years they had
a rule where you never see a ball. There's never
a Survivor challenge where people score points by throwing a
ball because a ball doesn't fit into the Survivor world.
And then you know, like season twelve they had a
ball game. They were excited to play and then they
were like, oh yeah, now you can get a ball

(42:05):
in service.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
Alls are cool.

Speaker 5 (42:06):
Alls are cool.

Speaker 6 (42:07):
Will you you really dialed in, and I'm actually really
happy to hear that you really dialed into a core
design principle, which is the element of the equalizer, and
that sometimes takes the form of dexterity.

Speaker 5 (42:21):
Like you said, the keys, the ropes, the puzzle can
be the.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Mental and all fairness.

Speaker 3 (42:25):
Rider pointed it out to me because again I didn't
have anything to compare it to.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
So he's the one where I was like.

Speaker 3 (42:31):
Why aren't they just you know, throwing punches in it?
And he's like, hell, because it takes everybody.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
They kind of So yeah, he's the one who fully
pointed that out to me. But now is there so
you've seen did you? How how long did you work
on the show?

Speaker 5 (42:43):
So my first season that I worked on was season fifteen,
and then John has hired me back as a consultant
for just about every season since then. He's really good
at what he does, and there are years where he,
uh will mix up the names at the table, which
I'm always a fan of, like giving more people an
opportunity to come up. But he also there are some

(43:06):
shortcuts to working with some old vets because we kind
of know what are the things that have been pitched
a hundred times and are never going to move forward
to the extent that there are these semiotics, like you
see aesthetics of coconuts in some seasons, and in early
seasons there would be skulls in the seasons where there
if we were in a region where they didn't have coconuts, right,

(43:28):
And you see a lot of Hessian, which is like
Muslim cargo netting. You know, there's a shipwreck aesthetic to
Challenge beach and a lot of this stuff looks like
even though it's painted these bright colors for TV, like
it could have just been found on the beach. Right.

Speaker 3 (43:48):
Okay, so what do you think for all the seasons
you've been there, what do you think is the single
best challenge you've ever seen?

Speaker 5 (43:55):
Well? Best for different definitions. Do I have to present
company excluded or can I talk about my own great work?

Speaker 2 (44:05):
Start with your own great work and then go from there.

Speaker 5 (44:07):
I think my favorite challenge, single challenge that I had
on the show, and it changes, you know, But I
have a real funness for Snare the Drum. This. It'll
be interesting to see if I can describe it and
if it sounds interesting. Because it's on YouTube, you can
watch like any challenge, just about it for any season.
And it turns out they all have names. You never
know it because they don't get they're never spoken out

(44:29):
loud on the show. The only one that sometimes gets
named is you were describing a writer's emotion. The ball
drop one. Okay, that's like the mousetrap kind of operation.
But they all have names. And Kerhoffer and I in
some ways there are some ways in which were different,
in some ways in which were the same. We both

(44:49):
like a growner. We're fans of the dad joke. So
most of the challenges have a punny name. And Kerhoffer
is also a classic rock fan. He loves Oh my Gosh,
Kiss and Journey and Blue Oyster Cult and so yeah.

(45:11):
So the names of the challenges will frequently shout out.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
It'll be like, don't fear the Sleeper, stuff like that, gotcha.

Speaker 5 (45:20):
Ramball On was one that involved carrying a ball on
a very long pole. It was like it was the
vertical version of the one you saw in this week episode.
It's funny that they shouted out boom mic operators because
that's exactly where the inspiration came from. Because they've done
ramble on a bunch of times, and it's similar, but
it's it's it's vertical, so so similar, Like you know,

(45:43):
the riffing is a great skill for any you know,
aspiring challenge designers out there. They said later they said
boats you come in and go wagon wheels. They said,
a thing with a ball on it that's like this,
And you're like, well, what about a thing on a
ball on it that's like this. So that ability to
hilt and reframe and to translate is a great skill

(46:04):
for I believe any creative industry to translate, to take
Romeo and Juliet and set it in West Side story.
You know, I think it's a it's a way to
keep your creat because nobody's gonna do the combo the
way you'd do it, but it's a way to get
yourself to that next creative breakthrough. So so my challenge

(46:25):
that I like, Snare the Drum, and you might know
that why it's called that I pitched something else. I
don't remember what the name I pitched it with, and
and John changes to Snare the Drum because I think
that's a rock reference. So it was an endurance challenge,
but it was an endurance challenge where they were in
constant motion. The things about most of the endurance challenges,

(46:46):
like we saw two this week, one more Stephanie had
an arm in the air called wind Rains and one
with the boom boom, and they have to stay absolutely still.
So in my challenge, this is when we're kind of
like sumo and see each tribe puts up one player
and you're gonna step onto the field. There are three
circles on the sand and they are a good distance

(47:09):
apart from each other. Think like you know home plate
and two you know, you're running from home plate to
first base and the second base and then.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
Back like ninety feet.

Speaker 5 (47:18):
Yeah. Inside the rings there are two drums, your tribe's
drum and the other tribe's drum. It's like a big
flat drum like you hit like this, and your tribe
logo is painted on one side of the drum and
the other side has a big X on it. So
just a recap. You've got three stations. In each station
is a pair of drums. At the start, every drum

(47:40):
has the X side facing up. The object of the
game is to get all three of your tribe's drums
with the logo side face up. All at the same time,
but you're gonna run to a station and flip your
opponent's drum over. So the X is facing up. If
you get to the station and your opponent's drum is up,
you flip it down, and if if yours is down,

(48:01):
you're gonna flip it up. Meanwhile, your opponent is over
at third base doing the same thing in reverse. So
who gets gassed out first or who loses their concentration
because a lot of the points that were scored in
this round were scored by somebody running to a station
and unthinkingly flipping over both drums when they should have

(48:25):
just flipped over their own, right, and they score a
point for the other team. Oh ah, yees. Okay, so
that's what I liked about it. It ran people around
until they lost track of what they were supposed to do.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
Wow man, okay, So another question, how how often have
you come up with a game in the room that
then you give to the team to build or whatever,
and they come back and they're just like, this is
logistically impossible. We can't we can't do the thing you
guys just asked us to do.

Speaker 5 (48:54):
I'm sure it happens all the time. It's kind of this, uh,
after the consulting session is over and we put cards
on the wall, that board with the cards on it
goes in one of the shipping containers to Fiji. They
set up their office when they get there, then they
begin building and play testing and doing stuff for camera.
And at that point things change enormously. And I never

(49:16):
know what's gonna happen until I see the episode air
and I'll go like, oh, I remember that idea in
the room. It's changed so much, or like, wow, that
thing we were all really excited about. I wonder where
it went because it was never heard from again.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
Okay, wow.

Speaker 5 (49:32):
So sometimes I hear the stories, you know, they're like, oh, yeah,
we tested it and it was super unfair. The big
strong guys won every time, and the what we thought
was going to be the catch up element just didn't work.
We tried it. It was really unsafe. It turned out
that like if there's even the slightest bit of water
then people could fall, like catch their necks on these ropes.

(49:53):
Or we tried it and it wasn't fun. You know,
there was no come from behind. The person who got
the lead first kept it the whole time and it
wasn't compelling so or you know, I hate to say,
but like if somebody like you know, if somebody like
skipped breakfast and it has a crappy rehearsal, they might
be like, hey, I never want to see this challenge

(50:14):
again and I hate it. Right, just like any any
TV show, things can get killed for good reasons or
no reasons or weak reasons. Right, but you know, there's
a production schedule to meet. So I think one of
the reasons that John is so good at his job
is you know, he he is an executive producer, and

(50:35):
he has seniority, and he's got a place at the table,
and he'll push for ideas. But if the decision is
made it's not this, we need something new. He gets
to work and he has something new. Like he is,
he's he's the guy you want in a lifeboat for sure.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
Wow, as long as you didn't just build the lifeboat
out of coconut.

Speaker 5 (50:55):
I say that he's got a big body, but I
would still I would. I would make room for him
in the life book because he John won't let you down.
He's set. I don't say this about a lot of
people in that like he he is such a good
guy and he goes to church, which is wild, but
he you know, he's he's like Christ like instead of
like telling you about the Bible and what it says,

(51:16):
and like John. And another thing we have in common
is we like to walk and be creative, like while
getting steps, like fresh air, like going for a walk.
And when you go for a walk with John, he
says hello to everybody, and not just like he says
a lord of the day, laborers in the yard and
up on the roof because he tarred roofs. He was

(51:39):
a blue collar guy, he likes to say. Before he
started in TV. He goes, I was a CPA, a
car parking attendant. That one's a John Kerroffer classic. You
know you won't. You won't escape a party with him
without hearing that one at least twice.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
Oh my god.

Speaker 5 (51:56):
And so he you know, he's not too high and
mighty to greet an be courteous and gentlemanly to absolutely
everybody in the neighborhood. And it's it's inspiring in many
cool So I was.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
Going to ask you if you have a favorite, uh
one that didn't make it onto the show, but you
probably have hundreds.

Speaker 5 (52:17):
I thought of this recently. I was like, what if someday,
like if Survivors off the air, because everything that I
send them they own. But if I end up taking
something and doing my own version with it, for wise guys,
nobody notices and nobody.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
Cares unless you talk about it on a podcast.

Speaker 5 (52:32):
Would you guys are recording this? I noticed there's a
dirty trick writer. We go way back, we go way
way back, and this is how you do me? This
is it on CBS.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
I just tried to give you eleven drop. What's happening.

Speaker 5 (52:49):
Taking back the five star rating I gave your podcast
and changing it because I think, yes, there's lots of
ideas that I was excited about that I'm sure many
of them that I was excited about. It's a good
thing that they never saw the light of day. But
I was like, oh, I should get art for these
and make a coffee table book like here is you know, god,
you know, eighteen years of challenges. You know, ideas pitched

(53:13):
at various times to Survivor. Here's photos of the one
that actually went on the show and how it changed.
And here's one that I'm glad never made it on
the show because now I've realized that it's really stupid.

Speaker 4 (53:24):
It's actually a great idea for a book.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
Dude, Seriously, that would be a cool coffee table book
to just like see, like even if to have, like
if you got a hold of the original sketches for
some of the stuff and then photographs just like the
challenges as a as a book would be really cool
to flip through. I'd love that.

Speaker 5 (53:41):
Well. I have to root for Survivor to go off
the air because I feel like once that happens, that
that clears the runway for me to publish my book
and not get any quick claims.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
Do you have an infamous fail, like one that you
just came up that really didn't work?

Speaker 5 (54:10):
Yeah, and that made it on the air too, And
that's good for when I'm feeling, you know, a little
too high on my own supply to remind myself of
the story of Game of throw Ins, which is a
great name and a great pitch. So I've said lots

(54:31):
of nice things about John, and mostly everything I have
to say about John is nice and I won't say,
but I'll say, and you have to know, kind of
like we were talking about, if somebody has an had lunch,
you have to know what time of day to pitch,
which ideas forctly having been like an old vent in
the room. I've seen young guys come in the room
and they shoot all their ideas like first thing, and

(54:52):
then it's like, well it's going to be you know,
quite a week or like, you know, try to pitch
a complex idea that requires is a detailed visual, but
maybe they don't have any art And it's like right
after lunch when food coma is the most present. So
one of the advantages of being something of an old
vet is tuning the pitch to the time of day.

(55:14):
So I pitched a game for food coma time that
I knew count. I've returned to this design principle and
again and again the you know, take two things that
exist and combine them in a way that hasn't been
done before. I said, what if we took a basketball
hoop and put in the center of a maze. You
can shoot the ball from anywhere in the maze. So
if you're standing really far back, you're farther but could

(55:36):
get lucky and hit it. But if it rebounds, you
have to search the maze for your ball before you
can throw it again. And the name of the game
is Game of throw Ins. Okay, And so it was like,
we know what a basketball hoop is, we know what
a maze is. These are two things that we know
of work. We're going to combine them. So will you

(55:58):
do you know who the MLB person John Rocker is? Okay?
Did you know that John Rocker played Survivor?

Speaker 2 (56:08):
I did not.

Speaker 5 (56:09):
They put him and a woman he was dating at
the time, not very much before and not very much after.
They put John Rocker and his girlfriend Julie on a
season of Survivor that was Blood versus Water where they
had like father daughter, and they had twin sister twin sister,
and they had John Rocker and woman he'd been dating

(56:31):
for a little while. So it sounds interesting, gotcha not
blood technically water, I guess. But I think somebody really
wanted John Rocker on the show. They're like, hey, what
if he's a piece of shit? And as we talked about,
since the challenges are supposed to make the contestants fight.
From that perspective, Game of Thrones was not a failure

(56:54):
right for the elegance of design that I was going
for for the like origami, like simplicity of basketball hoop
in maze. But the problem was that we had two
teams of two enter the maze, each with their own ball,
and on go they could enter, they could throw if
they love. They were linked together kind of almost three

(57:14):
legged race style, so that if they were chasing the ball,
they had to work together as a team. But once
John Rocker entered the arena, he would check the other team,
and then once he started doing it, everybody started doing it,
and it just like you were talking about challenges where
they fight.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
Yeah, this was just too much.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
It just became a melee.

Speaker 5 (57:36):
It became a melee. And I told you that. Nowadays
when you watch challenges, there's lots of bunting and fanfare
and art everywhere. And this was during that time. And
the challenge is over and Jeff is doing the like
Matt chat where he talks to them after declaring the
winner and sending them back to their beach, and the

(57:57):
trash talk is just continuing, and John Rocker looks at
Natalie Anderson and says, if you were a guy, I'd
knock your teeth down your throat, and she says, come
at me, bro, I don't care that I'm not a
guy come at me, and he John Rocker, in reaction
to that, spits on the ground, looks around with the

(58:19):
contemptuous eye at the art departments, bunting and fanfare, and
he goes take all this stuff down and let's fight.
And I was like, well, oh.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
My god, that's a successful challenge in my piness.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
Perfectly named.

Speaker 3 (58:33):
Nobody was nice in Game of Thrones, even the nice people.

Speaker 5 (58:36):
I never thought of that this whole time, but yeah,
they're not nice to each other on Game of Thrones.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
No, it's perfectly named. Oh my god, that's so funny.

Speaker 3 (58:44):
But is this one of the more famous kind of
moments in survivor history.

Speaker 5 (58:48):
Well, it is to me because that was my challenge
and I was like, this is going to be an
all star. They're going to bring this one back again
and again. And that is not what happened that Usually.
There have been several challenges. Game of Thrones is one.
Snare the drumas another where I was like, this is
going to be an instant classic. You're going to see
this again and again. Now I am happy to say

(59:10):
and fortunate and full of gratitude that I have had
challenges that became mainstays. There's one called Idle Hands, where
again this is from an era where two people enter
the arena and you're both balancing a little idol on
a little platform, and the object of the game is
to get the other person's idle to hit the ground

(59:30):
before yours. So it's kind of like, I keep my
arm extended way over here, and I'm kind of cat paw,
oh geez, looting at you. And people did engagement with
They played that one the way they were supposed to.
It didn't get ugly. It was actually a battle of wits.
People tried different gambits. They did it more than once,

(59:53):
and in fact, I once and you may have had
experiences like this with your television work being on display
in a public space, but I once walked into Costco
and all the widescreen TVs in the entrance section we're
playing them doing my challenge.

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
One of those that Rider and I experienced together was
we were sitting in a hash bar in Amsterdam when
we heard our voices and we looked up and Boy
Meets World was playing in the hash bar. That was
one of the cooler ones that happened, at least we
both thought we heard.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
It don't remember this, So you don't You've got to
be kidding me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
We were freaking out. Yeah, We're at the Bulldog in Amsterdam.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
I mean, I've definitely had that experience multiple times. The
worst is in airports. I've been like, oh God, happening
right now because you're stuck in the rating room. You
can't go anywhere.

Speaker 4 (01:00:46):
I was like, I'm just someone's gonna notice this eventually.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Oh god, that's so funny, Oh Riders.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
Should our new goal of this podcast be that you
and I together invent to challenge that makes it onto Survivor.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
So we could pitch Miles and then Miles pitches it
in the.

Speaker 3 (01:01:06):
Right and then he can say it could be the
writer and will challenge Survivor challenge.

Speaker 5 (01:01:11):
It can't be worse than the pitch I got. And
I love it when people pitch challenges to me. So
I am full throatedly excited about this idea. And it's
really interesting how people view your job, whatever your job
may be, and they it's not even necessarily. I mean,
you definitely encounter people who think they know how to

(01:01:31):
do your job better than you do, but unfortunately, like
that's definitely the case. Planning events for corporate groups, but
usually like when you run into people and there's Survivor
fans and it comes up, or sometimes I like wear
a Survivor shirt and they go, well, you are on
the show. I go, well, not exactly, and I tell
them what I do. And this waiter at a great
restaurant in Chicago that I don't know if it's there anymore,

(01:01:54):
called Orange. She said, oh, I'm so glad I met you.
I have a great idea for a Survivor challenge. And
I said, hit me, I'm listening. And she said they
have to make a pizza and I didn't say anything.
And she said they would make the dough like they
you know, raise the grain, and they have to like

(01:02:15):
harvest the tomatoes like every they make the cheese and
all the ingredients they make, and then tasting the pizza
determines the winner. And I at this point I felt
like I had to say something and I said, wow, well,
I feel like that would take, you know, longer than
the challenges usually go on for. And she said, well,

(01:02:37):
it could be the final challenge.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
So do they need cows then to actually get the milk?

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Also, people that are starving having to deal with food
just seems like the worst idea ever, because they will
either just eat everything or not be allowed to, in
which case you're truly torturing them.

Speaker 5 (01:02:55):
Everything you're saying is correct, but not nearly sufficient, because
who tastes the pizza? Is it Jeff? Does Jeff eat
the final three contestants pizzas and go.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
To bring on Michelin star pizza Chef.

Speaker 5 (01:03:11):
You know, I would have said that could never happen.
But then suddenly Zach Brown was on an episode of Survivor.
I find myself thinking I was so excited when you know, writer,
you called my name and Jessica put us together, and
I was like, I can go be the Zach Brown
of Boy, of Podmeats Twirled. I'll be the guy no

(01:03:31):
one asked for. And then and then last week when
Rob Cesternino was on your podcast, I.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
Was like, oh, oh great.

Speaker 5 (01:03:39):
So not only am I the Zach Brown, I'm going
to reheat the podcast King's Nachos. What But I've got something.
I've got something they haven't got, which is writer. And
I can do the lemon drop scene. Yes, so don't
mind if I do.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
You're looking good.

Speaker 5 (01:03:58):
Sorry, I can't say the same for you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
Amazing. Oh my god, myles, thank you so much for
coming on. And we are going to follow up. We're
going to we're gonna hit you up with some design ideas. Yeah,
I love this idea. It would be yeah, sure you back.
We'll bring you back by the end of the season,
and we'll pitch you a bunch.

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Of five or fifty one.

Speaker 5 (01:04:19):
Don't lose my number. Crowdsource it to the listeners. Let
them pitch you, and then you can take credit for
their great ideas.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
That's a good idea, good idea, It's less work for us.
I love it.

Speaker 5 (01:04:30):
Do I have to let you go? Or can I
ask a boy meets World question or world questions? Okay,
so this was so fun when when Jessica, the listener,
the keystone of the podcast community, was like, they said
your name on Writer Strong's podcast. And I tell this
story to my wife, doctor Laurel, and she goes, well,
I definitely I called it forgive me. I called it

(01:04:54):
Writer Strong's podcast. I know it's called pod meats World,
and I know that without will there's nothing. Let me
have this moment, I and she I said it was
Writer Strong and I told the story of acting class
and Bruce Dukott, and she got this look on her
face and she was like, well, I definitely know who
writer Strong is, but I kind of forgot that you

(01:05:14):
know him, and my wife is really slick, but and
I'm not great at reading faces. But she was a
big Boy Meets World watcher and she didn't have to
say anything, and I knew that she was one of writers,
many many fans. I'm watching the show and I get
a little of the stolen valor because I'm like, well,

(01:05:35):
I'm gonna go podcast with him, sweetheart. I knew him
when he was buying Mars bars on College Avenue.

Speaker 4 (01:05:42):
Jean Lemon drop scenes, Lemon scenes.

Speaker 5 (01:05:45):
And I said, do you want me to ask him
anything in particular? And she said, well, since they've podcasted
all of Boy Meets World, this has probably been covered.
But as somebody who watched the show when it was on,
I actually do have a question. And she you, maybe
you've covered this wall to wall, so I apologize, but
she said, there's an episode where Daniella's character to Penga

(01:06:08):
cuts her hair.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
Hair goon tomorrow, okay, season four.

Speaker 5 (01:06:14):
She wanted to know did that come just from the
writer's room and They're like, you're doing this to yourself
and then your look is going to change. Did she
come to them? Okay, will you tell all this story
so I can tell my wife she cut her hair.
Since she's been Danielle had never had a hair.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Cut, so she was just one of these people with
the super long and then that summer she just decided.

Speaker 4 (01:06:35):
I want to cut my hair, and.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
She was It was, you know, a teenage moment of
standing up for herself and saying, I'm so sick of
having this much hair.

Speaker 4 (01:06:43):
I'm going to cut it, and the producer saying.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
No, no, no, don't. It's a big part of your character.
And then they were like, actually, we'll write an episode
about it. Let me write and we'll let you cut
your hair.

Speaker 4 (01:06:53):
So they worked it around her desire to finally cut
her hair.

Speaker 5 (01:06:56):
Yeah, that was Doctor Laurel's. She was like, it's it's
too much to just have it come for the writers.
I was like, well, they told Colonel Tye on Battlestar
Galactica you've lost an eye now, and she's like, he
didn't lose an actual eye.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
He didn't have to actually go carve out an eye.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
Danielle still has the hair.

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
She sting the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Okay, kept it in a bag, kept it in a bag.
Still got it.

Speaker 5 (01:07:30):
She asked me this question. She did a good job
telling me the story of the episode and the context,
and she explained why this was a question, which I'm
sure you know it is available on the internet, but
she thought I could just go you to like right
to a second degree. And we talked about it more
and I was like, yeah, well, if whether it came
from that or whether it was her choice, and the
fact that the producer told her no, you can't, it

(01:07:52):
plays in so perfectly. I was like, you know, I
have to imagine that being young and on TV when
part of your celebrity hinge is around your looks, can't
have been all good new.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
No, that's a That's a big theme of our other podcast,
Meets World, which oh yeah, we've we we've cried many
a tear and uh you know discovered you know, especially
in the season seven that we're covering right now, when
weight gain was openly discussed on the show in regards

(01:08:27):
to Will and Danielle, which is just so disturbing when
you know, talking about teenagers bodies, like yeah, it was, Yeah,
there was a lot of great that came from Boy
Meets World, But you know, like any childhood, it's it
brings with it its own baggage that we're still we're
still unpacking, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:08:43):
Still unpacking, but just mad props to you for taking
it into your hands and using your power and asking
yourself these hard questions and doing it for the listeners
and doing that shadow work. Like good good on you
for all.

Speaker 4 (01:08:58):
Yeah, I know we've been so like, I mean, yeah,
this has been the greatest.

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
Like we never thought when we started our little podcast,
we were like, is this the thing that anybody cares about?
And now we're like, man, not only do people care
about it, it has been so healing for all of us,
Like it's actually been like, yeah, it's been the greatest
midlife crisis. So we're yeah, that's great. All right, Well,
thank you so much, Miles. Maybe in time, let me
hit me up when you're in la Ever man, I

(01:09:24):
really I mean that, hit me up and let's you know,
grab coffee and actually catch up in person.

Speaker 5 (01:09:28):
I will take you off of that. I would love
to hear about your well, yes, I could talk to
you about books. We could talk about kids. Yeah, we
talk about the whole kitten kaboodle.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
I'm so down, all right, and I'll and if I'm
in Oakland, Berkeley, you know I still have friends up there.
I will definitely try and come and see a show
because that sounds I would be so fun to see
you doing your magic and being like, yeah, I knew
him when he was just as good an I provate
fourteen as he is now. I love it.

Speaker 5 (01:09:54):
I have the biggest smile on my face. Thank you
for letting me be your Zach Brown, thank you for
welcoming me onto your eye and awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:10:01):
All right, we'll talk to see them dude right by.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
All right, So here's my first idea for a challenge.

Speaker 5 (01:10:06):
Let's go.

Speaker 3 (01:10:07):
Every contestant has to sit there and watch themselves grow
up on television.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
Yeah, I about this? How about this? You lose a
contact on the sand and they're just searching for contact.
What are like the worst beach experience? You just have
to put sunscreen lotion. You have to put sunscreen on
and find a spot on a crowded beach. That would
be hell for me.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Bury your coals.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
You have to find a place to park your car.
You can't have alcohol. Halfway through They're like, whoa, my,
go have that there?

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
You've been listening to Pod meets Twirl. The torches may
be snuffed, but our questionable analysis burns on.

Speaker 4 (01:10:47):
We'll see you next time at Tribal Trap.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
You're smoking

Speaker 5 (01:11:01):
H