Performance Psychologist: Why Your Brain Quits Before Your Body Does

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Performance psychology is about getting to the next level of
whatever it is you want to improve in your lives.
There's some study out there that shows that we're capable
of pushing ourselves forty percent more than we think. I
call it the MVP process. The M standing for mindfulness,
the V stands for visualization, and the P stands for
that positive coaching. I love evolutionary psychology. So much of

(00:23):
what we do is rooted in the dawn of human civilization.
The way we bonded with each other was by walking together,
by running together, by traveling together, moving side by side together.
When you're running, it allows you to access a part
of yourself below conscious awareness. Hypnosis is extremely powerful tool

(00:46):
that we have inside of us.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
When a lot of people hear the term hypnosis, they
think woo woo.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
So what do people get wrong about hypnosis?

Speaker 1 (00:53):
You are always in control.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Hi guys, it's your host, Kate Max and welcome back
to post run High. We have a really special guest today,
my mother in law, doctor Dana Libo, who has been
a psychologist and performance coach for over thirty years. Dana
is also a marathon runner. She started running marathons at
fifty five years old and has since run over eighteen marathons. Now,

(01:22):
I just want to take a moment before we get
into today's episode to say thank you guys so much
for listening to our show.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
It really means.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
The world to us, and your listening ship and support
helps us continue bringing you inspiring conversations.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
All we want is to add.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
Value to your lives, and I really think this episode
with Dana is going.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
To do just that.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
Without further ado, we're going to take a short break
and get into our episode with doctor Dana Libo.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
What is up, guys, Welcome back to Post Run High.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
I am sitting here today with my mother in law,
doctor Dana Libo. She is a psychologist that has been
practicing for over thirty years.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
Dana, how are you. I'm doing great, Kate, and I'm
so thrilled and honored to be here. I've been watching
you for well a little less than thirty years, but
just always before I go to bed at night, I
watch Post Run High just a few minutes. It's kind
of my ritual now and I am definitely one of

(02:28):
your biggest fans.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Well, I am so excited to have you on Post
Run High. We've had you on our Running Interview Show
quite a bit. So those of you that watch our
Running Interview Show are definitely familiar with Dana and her story,
and today we just have the opportunity to go a
little bit deeper with you, which I'm super excited about.
So we are doing a little bit of an extended
post run High episode, and that is because we ran yesterday.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
We kind of did a run walk, if I'm being honest.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
But we did a run walk yesterday and it was
eighty four degrees. It was eighty four degrees. We're here
in California on a family trip. But now a few
hours later we are sitting down for our post rind
High episode. So how are you feeling.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
I'm feeling great, Yeah, yeah, after my morning coffee and
sitting here with you ready to go.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, the coffee is important, It sure is. So, Dana,
the last time we saw you, or my audience saw you,
was at the New York City Marathon where you fell
around mile twelve and broke your arm. Can you talk
to us a little bit about what happened during the
race and then what happened after.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Well, it was a point Kate where the roads kind
of converged there was a lot more people kind of
crammed together on a narrower road, and I was running
with this wonderful pacing group and trying to make sure
not to lose the head pacer. And one guy was
running around encouraging everybody, and he put his arm around

(03:57):
my shoulder while we were running, and he's like, you're
doing great, keep going. Just threw me off balance a little.
And I don't know if it was a pothole or what.
The ground was uneven. We were packed in like sardines
and just happened so quickly. I went flying, and I remember,
thank God for my arm because that's what stopped me

(04:20):
from hitting my head on the ground. And the thing is,
though I knew something was wrong, but what went through
my head immediately was You've got to finish the race.
You've got to finish the race. And here I'm lying
on the road. I think a couple people had stopped
to prevent me from being trampled, but I just lucked out.
I lucked out because there was a volunteer on the

(04:41):
side of the road. She brought me to the med
tent and it was only like half a mile away.
I mean, I fell at a great spot for support
and help. And there were two sports medicine doctors. I
knew it was bad when a couple things. They said,
when you get to the er, if they offer you morphine,

(05:02):
take it. And and they also said, in response to
my pushing to can I go? Can I go? I
want to? I want to. I wanted to meet you
guys at mile sixteen and I wanted to cross that
finish line. I think that's what goes through any marathon
runner's head. I mean, you're there to finish that race,

(05:23):
come hell or high water. And they said, look, you
could die if you keep running, and then explained, you know,
they didn't know how badly the bones were broken that
anyway I could have cut into a vein or something
with a jagabut. I mean, too much information, I know,

(05:44):
but they they convinced me that it was not safe
to keep going. So they were wonderful though, put me
in aneuver to the er, and I was just blown away.
I know, you and Jeremy came and you took pictures
of those X rays, and then my daughters pickleball partners.

(06:06):
Brother in law was a top hand surgeon and Maryland
and he's seeing the X rays that you took pictures
of just a few minutes later, and then they are
being sent to someone at Duke University who was his
best friend as a resident years ago, and he was
a top hand surgeon in North Carolina where we live.
I just lucked out. Within a couple of days, I

(06:27):
was in surgery and as you could see, cast is off.
Even though I do have to wear it. I have
to wear it when I run and just to be safe.
So yeah, I was able to do the Turkey trop
and even though the hand surgeon said to me, don't

(06:48):
try to win the race overall, don't try to get
a PR, I did win my age group. And then
a couple weeks later I ran another race. The Turkey
Trot was five miles. This one was a ten k,
and I won my age group. There. I guess when
you get older the competition does than a little. But
I was able to run more slowly and still win,

(07:08):
so that feels good. I needed to cross the finish
line again, and so I've been able to do that
a couple times since the fall.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Think runners are definitely built different. It's like something goes wrong,
something happens and all us runners want to do is
get back out there and be able to.

Speaker 3 (07:25):
Go for a run again.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
And I've been in similar situations where I've been injured,
where I've had knee injuries, where I have to wait
and wait and wait to get back out there and
go for a run, And there really is nothing like it.
And I feel like going through these types of injuries
makes you appreciate having a healthy body and being able
to run so much more.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
Absolutely, Yeah, And I think that's it right there, Kate.
You don't realize how much we take for granted when
we're fully healthy and you know everything is working. But
when something goes wrong, you know, it just makes us
appreciate how we've got to take care of it. And

(08:03):
you know, I think there's a lot of runners who
there's always something, especially as you get older. There's always
something that is bothering you. Whether it's the achilles or
the calf muscle, or you know, a hip has just
a few months left before it needs to be replaced.

(08:23):
There's always something.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
There's always something.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
And I liked what you said when you were talking
about what happened during the race. You said, come hell
or high water as a marathon runner. You want to
finish that race. And obviously this was a unique situation.
You fell, you broke your arm. You had to get
a couple screws and metal plates put into your arm,
so this was a serious injury. But I'm sure there's
been times in your eighteen plus marathons that you've had

(08:48):
leg cramps or things that happened that made you want
to stop, and you've been able to push yourself through.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah. I think you're getting at Kate what
every on our faces, whether you're long distance running or
even if you're running a five k or ten k,
whatever it is, I think you reach a point or
at some point in the race where you hit a wall.
Walls are famous in marathons. They usually happen around mile

(09:16):
twenty one or something. I've had the wall hit me
at mile eleven and you just are running, thinking every
bone in my body, every ten in every muscle is
screaming stop and you just want to curl up on
the side of the road fetal position. But you've got

(09:37):
to psych yourself in that moment. And I know you've
been through it too. I've seen your documentary and you
just I think it's a combination of I call it
the MVP process. I mean we all think of MVP,
you know, it's a famous acronym. But I like to

(09:58):
think of the M stand for mindfulness, which just kind
of take a few deep breaths. The V stands for visualization.
You visualize something that keeps you going, and it's different
for everybody. You could have like fifteen or twenty things
that you might visualize that psyche you up in that moment.
And the piece stands for that positive coaching that you,

(10:20):
you know, kind of stand outside yourself and coach yourself.
You've got this, stay in it. You know you can
do it. You know you can push through this, just
keep going. And so combination of those three things, everybody
can kind of tailor it to themselves. I mean, I
for the mindfulness piece, I kind of look around and

(10:40):
remind myself to enjoy what I'm doing, to take in
the sounds of the roaring crowds, to feel the rhythm
of the run, the pace, the beat of even my heart.
As I'm running, you kind of get into a music.
And so that's the M for mindfuls. And then the

(11:01):
I visualize, I mean I have so many things I visualize.
Sometimes I'll visualize someone I know who's not doing so well,
and you know, maybe is ill or has an injury,
and I think I'm running for you. You know, I'll
imagine that I'm carrying them with me, and that really

(11:21):
gets me going, just to think I can. I'm still vertical,
I can keep running, and so you know, for some people,
it might be visualizing even the finish line. There's actually
been studies that show that runners who think about the
finish line visualize it as the running It actually helps
them speed up and keep going. So i might be

(11:44):
at mile sixteen and I'm imagining that finish line and
what it's going to feel like when I cross over it,
so that that gives me that little boost. And then
just kind of the things I say to myself, Dana,
you've been here before. You know it's hard, but you
know your body can do it. There's some study out
there that shows that we're capable of pushing ourselves forty

(12:07):
percent more than we think. And I just tell myself that,
you know you've gone ten miles and you feel you're
at your limit, you can go four more at least.
And I coach myself as if I'm my own coach,
you know, and it gets me through. It gets me through.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
MVP, MVP, And you know, I think the hardest thing
about sometimes being a psychologist and just being a human
being is we're all capable of giving other people advice
and helping coach other people. But sometimes the hardest job
is when we have to coach ourselves. Right, But you've
been capable of coaching yourself. And if you don't mind
me saying, you know, you've only been running since you

(12:48):
were fifty years old.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
Right, Well, yeah, I mean I jogged a lot to
stay in shape up to that point. I mean I
did run when the kids were little. I had a
single jogging stroller, double jogging stroller, and then, believe it
or not, before jogging strollers were even popular, my husband
and I managed to find a triple jogging stroller. So

(13:11):
we would be running on the side of the road
with our triple jogging stroller at a time when no
one even thought about using strollers for jogging, and people
we would stop traffic couldn't believe that we had three
little ones strapped in running along. So yeah, I ran
just to stay in shape. But I never thought that

(13:31):
I could run distance. I mean, I remember thinking, marathon,
that's unbelievable. And my husband started running them, and a
couple times I would meet him with maybe eleven fifteen
miles left for him to go, and I know it's
not good, but I would get on there and just
kind of run bandit with him. And I know that's

(13:52):
you know, we're not supposed to do that.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
But what do you mean by run band it?

Speaker 1 (13:55):
Well, I wasn't registered, I didn't have a BIB. I
just would kind of get on the course and run
with him. And these were local, informal marathons, and I
would notice running the last ten miles. I did that
with my daughter. Also that there were a lot of
people walking, and I thought, oh, I didn't know you

(14:16):
were allowed to walk, So why can't I do that.
I'll try running a marathon and if I get tired, heck,
I'll just walk. And so we signed up for a
I think it was the All American Marathon near Fort
Bragg in North Carolina, and my god, I remember passing

(14:39):
the ten mile mark and thinking, wow, I feel really good.
I was fifty five years old at the time and
looking around, I don't know where my husband went, and
so I just kept going, and I think at mile
sixteen I hit a wall, and I don't know what
a wall was at that time. I just felt like, I, okay,
if you're going to walk, walk now. But what I

(15:00):
did instead was I remember calling up my daughter and
she had her whole family around her, and I said
to her, Sandra, I feel like I'm going to die.
What do I do? And she said, Mom, just keep going,
and she said, we'll call you every like, you know,

(15:22):
five ten minutes, just to give you a boost, and
she did. She called me. The whole family was cheering
for me on the phone, and I remember just drinking
in that energy from them and thinking of my grandson
at the time and granddaughter and just seeing their little

(15:44):
faces smiling, hearing them cheer for me, and it kept
me going. And I'll tell you too, At that particular marathon,
there was a mile where they had flags of fallen soldiers,
and I remember running through that mile just so overwhelmed
by emotion. I was crying. I don't think I've ever

(16:07):
cried while running, but I just remember the tears and
so impacted by the thought of, you know, the lives
that they gave for their country. And it pushed me
that you know, we can still run and we can

(16:30):
still move forward, and that they would want us to
run and to keep going and to impact the world
in some positive way. So that that really empowered me too.
And you know, I was thinking a member of our
family was very sick at that time. M that helped.

(16:53):
I thought of him.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
And the member of your family that was sick was
your son, right.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, yeah, sorry. That kept me going. He kept going.
He was sick, but he kept going, and he was
an inspiration for all of us. He ran triathlons and
races and open water swims and he was his skin

(17:20):
was gray. He was so sick, but he kept going
and that just inspired me. And so all these thoughts
I think go through the marathon runner's head. You know,
we can run because we can. We can run because
we can, And so when you hit that wall, that's

(17:41):
what you think about. And suddenly the finish line is
there within sight, and there's nothing like crossing over it
and then knowing too, even though it's the finish line,
there'll be another start soon. There's all always another run,

(18:01):
no matter what race that you decide to join. And
I'll tell you even at the New York City Marathon
when I fell, you know, I realized that we all
get tripped up on the way to a finish line.
And so then we've got three choices. We can either

(18:22):
push through, crawl, you know, scramble, do whatever we can
to still get to that finish line. If it's against
medical advice, we might need to listen. We could also
postpone the finish We always have that option. There's always
another race, you know, just put it off and take

(18:46):
the time that we need to heal. And then two,
we can reroute. We can change the story. We don't
have to cross that finish line. There's other finish lines.
We can change the story. And I think that's what
I did. I met so many wonderful people getting hurt.

(19:08):
I have a different story. Haven't quite crossed the New
York City Marathon finish line, but I've crossed others.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
Well, you have crossed the New York City Marathon finish
line well a couple times before.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
But I mean, you know, there's always next year.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
Yeah, there's always next year.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
And I think the beautiful thing about running is even
if you know whether you're doing a race or going
out for a three mile run on your own. It's
never guaranteed that it's going to be a good run,
and I think that's what keeps people going also, Right,
it's the ability to say, Okay, this challenged me, and
now I want to come back and do it again

(19:45):
and do it and be stronger this time.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
Right.

Speaker 3 (19:47):
And that goes for running or just working out in general.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Right, there's always those times where the workout and the
practice of doing it is going to challenge you, and
that's where the mental toughness comes in.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, Kate, it is a little different
when you're older. I'll be honest.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
You know you did say that too. I have to
shout this out.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
So Dana and I we did a video for where
we were picking you out a raised day out there.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
You're actually wearing one of the shirts.

Speaker 1 (20:16):
That I bought you. I am this was the shirt
I fell in.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
Yeah, this was the shirt that you fall in. And
for our listeners, she's wearing a light blue Viry long
sleeve top. It's go Carolina.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
I know you got it because you wanted to be
wrapping your Carolina blue, which is where you live in
North Carolina and where Jeremy, my husband went to you
and see your son. But when we were filming, you
said something along along the lines of you don't know
if a bone's going to break or a hamstring is
going to give out, because at sixty five years old,
just anything can happen.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
So yeah, yeah, and I got to tell you there
are a lot of runners out there that are much
older than sixty five. There's nothing more inspiring to than
should be running a marathon and seeing someone who's like
eighty two years old just pushing along and once step
after another. I think that, you know, we can stay

(21:04):
in as good as shape as possible kit as we
get older. Yet you know, there's also reality that we're
not young spring chickens anymore. I mean, we don't have
the same BODI as we did when we were twenty
four years old. So it's hard, you know, it's hard
to honor what our bodies are telling us sometimes. And

(21:25):
I mean, I know I have run through injuries trying
to ignore what my body's saying. And yeah, I know
you said that we don't necessarily practice what we preach
or walk the talk or I know, right after my
surgery the next day, I was back to work, you know,

(21:46):
with all the pain and everything right, and you know,
some of the team was teasing me, like doctor Liebo.
You know here you're telling everybody else to take the
time to rest and recover, but you're back here without
giving yourself that time. And so I think, you know,
sometimes as we get older, we think there's not as

(22:09):
much time ahead as we've had behind, and so maybe
there's renewed urgency or something. And it doesn't have to
be running. It could be anything to still keep some passion,
still keep something going in our lives that we love
that gives us meaning and purpose. I mean, running is
just one piece of life. There's so many others as well.
And you know, as you get older, you get better

(22:34):
better in so many ways. I mean, I know we
were talking earlier about how some people actually run better,
improve their times as they get older, and I know
I certainly have. I don't have much comparison from when
I was younger. I just jogged, but you know I
found myself for some years getting better and better each year.

(22:54):
And there's that, I guess, exhilaration that we don't have
to let age defiaus or deny us. I mean, there's
so many athletes out there Olympians who have shown us
that hey, I'm thirty six years old and I can
still win the fifty yard dash or something, or you know,

(23:16):
sprint in the water. And I mean that are just
modeling to the world that we don't have to give up.
There's so many there's so much more we could do
as we get older and wiser.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
A couple of weeks ago on the podcast, we interviewed
Nicholas Thompson, who's the CEO of the Atlantic and he's
also in the age group over forty five, but he
holds the world record for the fastest fifty k for
men over forty five, which is about thirty miles, and
he was saying that in his thirties, he was consistently
running a specific marathon time, was a fast marathon time,

(24:01):
like he was in the sub three hour category, right,
so he's running a fast marathon, but he got stuck
at this one time and he couldn't break out of it.
And then finally he describes it as a psychological breakthrough,
and all of a sudden, in his forties he was
able to significantly drop his time by about ten minutes,
where he's now running a two hour.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
And twenty eight minute marathon. Wow, what do.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
You think happened to cause a psychological breakthrough that allows
him to go faster?

Speaker 1 (24:31):
You know, it's interesting you ask that question. And I
don't know if it's just for runners. I think it's
for an athlete in any sport. I honestly believe it
has something to do with being fully in the present moment.
You know, you're just being grounded in what you see
and hear and feel and smell as you're moving, you know,

(24:54):
and you're just so at one with kind of that
in the zone force, nothing hampers you. Your mind doesn't
get in the way. You're just free. I think it's
a freeing process. And there's a love, there's a passion.
You're feeling it in the moment. You know. It's you know,

(25:15):
so we let our minds get in our way so often.
But I imagine he was just fully at one with
just running in the zone, you know, just fully absorbed
in it and nothing, you know that, no, nothing in
his head was in the way or worries, concerns. He

(25:35):
just let all that go and broke through that barrier.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:40):
And the way he described it too, was that he had.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Cancer in his early thirties, and he before having cancer
he was running a fast marathon time, and then when
he got back into running post having cancer, he was
just obsessed with being able to be as fast as
he was pre cancer. And then all of a sudden,
the psychological breakthrough came. As soon as he realized, why

(26:02):
am I being so hell bent on running the same
path at the same time that.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
I did pre cancer?

Speaker 2 (26:09):
And as soon as he left that behind him and
kind of focused on what you're saying, which is the
present moment, he was able to break through and not
holds himself to that one time.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah. Yeah, because he we evolved. He evolved, He evolved
to a different person, you know, and let go. It
sounds like he finally let go, And in so many
ways that's freeing when you can just let go and
be in the moment and just therilled that we're alive
right now. Right.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
So, you're a psychologist that's been practicing for over thirty years,
and during that pre marathon viewery run that we did
getting you your outfit, you also said something interesting that
was people hit the wall in marathons, And of course
when we're talking running, it makes a lot of sense
to use hit the wall as an example, but people
hit the wall in life as well well. And you

(27:01):
also described yourself as a performance coach, so can you
talk to us about that?

Speaker 1 (27:07):
Well, I think, Kate, we all have things in our
lives that we want to improve in, and performance psychology
is about getting to the next level of whatever it
is you want to improve in your life. It could
be a skill, it could be a behavior, it could
be a mindset, even a mood. And so you know

(27:29):
what happens between where we are with whatever that skill
is we want to get better at, or behavior or
mood or mindset, whatever it is, and between where we
want to get And I'm sorry my arm is still
a little shaking a little from the whole time. This

(27:50):
is my arm that I okay.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
For our listeners.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Dana's currently using her broken arm, so that most people
are just listening, So you can just relax that arm and.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
I I need to gesture. So we're here with whatever
we want to improve at. We want to get there.
So the question is, you know, not where we are
where we want to be. It's more about that gap
in between. If we can tackle one thing in that
gap that can help us get from here to there.

(28:20):
That's how we get through that wall. And so when
I say tackle one thing, it could be something about
ourselves that gets in the way, you know, like hey,
I'm too impatient, or I procrastinate, or I'm not focused,
or I mean you name it fill in the blank, X,
Y or Z. It could be something we want to
build on, like I'm working on stamina and I need

(28:45):
to get forty percent better. Or it could be something even
about the situation where in that we want to change.
But there's usually something in the way between here and
there that we need to tackle, and it's something specific
and we know what it is. You know, if we
are uncertain what it is, we could ask the people
who know us, love us around us every day. They'll

(29:08):
tell us what it is. But there's usually one thing
or other things too, but one thing that if we
tackle that, it's going to help everything else. And so
I think as a performance psychologist, certainly makes my work
easier to focus on that one thing, whether it's for
an athlete or someone in the workplace, or you know,

(29:28):
someone who's started a foundation and hitting a wall and
fundraising whatever it is, you know, if you could tackle
that one thing and get it to the next level.
It can help everything else. And so that's I think,
you know, we've all heard the expression less is more,
and so just one thing. What's that one thing between

(29:51):
here and there that's either holding you back or you
can build on that will make all the difference. And
I think that's performance psychology can help with. You know,
there is such a vast amount of research out there
that shows us what the cutting edge techniques are, what
the best practices are, what the most effective approaches are

(30:14):
to help anything we want to get better at. You know,
now we've got AI. I mean, we could ask chat GBT,
but there's always some approaches, methods, treatments out there that
are just best in class. And if we can find
those and customize them apply them to whatever the person's

(30:37):
trying to improve, there's going to be some results.

Speaker 3 (30:41):
What have you found to be the most effective treatments?

Speaker 1 (30:44):
Well, I mean, it depends on what we're trying to tackle,
you know, if I'll be honest, you know, if someone's
been through some intensive trauma something like that earlier in
life or recently. I mean I know a lot of
athletes who might have fallen also or have some injury

(31:06):
and it's hard to get the confidence back. So there
are wonderful experiential approaches. And I believe in experiential therapy.
I mean, we could talk all we want about getting
better at something, but I believe you need to set
the stage to actually experience it again, to reframe it,

(31:27):
or to reconstruct the experience in a way that you
know it's new and different and you can face it differently.
So let's say, you know, with my I'll give the
example of my arm. I knew that I needed to
get back on the road again, running again, and so

(31:50):
I found the first safe way I could do that.
You know, my hand surgeon had a cast made for
me that went halfway up my arm, and so that
helped me feel even if I do fall, this thing
is like turning me into the bionic woman, so I'll
be okay. And also I love self hypnosis. I know

(32:15):
sometimes people get freaked out at the thought of hypnosis
because they've been to you know, a show or something
where someone's up there on stage making people, you know,
flap their arms like chickens or something. But hypnosis is
extremely powerful tool that we have inside of us. It's
I mean, many times a day we go into that

(32:37):
in the zone absorbed state, whether we're reading a good
book or driving a car, or if we are watching
a movie that has us on the edge of our seat,
we can create that in the zone experience ourselves. And
if there's an experience that has thrown us off course,

(32:57):
we can go into ourselves and revision it in a
way that is more fruitful productive. Here's how I would
have liked the outcome to have been different. And I
always have a chance in life to make that happen.
I could reroute the finish line that kind of thing.
So even in the hospital, Kate, and I know you
were You and Jeremy were so sweet to come and

(33:20):
see me in the er. They had to do what
was called a reduction on my arm and kind of
you know, change, pull.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
It out and.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
Align and realign the bones. And I knew it was
gonna hurt, and so I said, my God, Danna, if
you have ever learned to do hypnosis with others, do
it on yourself right now. And I imagined a beach
in Hawaii and the palm trees swaying in the breeze,
and the waves lapping on the shore, and the warm

(33:53):
sun on my skin, and that's where I was when
they did the reduction, and it was before they got
the morphiine in me. So it was self hypnosis. And
so you can apply hypnosis to so many things to
help people get in a state of full absorption and
to revision how they want to whether it's a problem,

(34:17):
a challenge, or a new opportunity they're facing. They can
see that for themselves in a hypnotic trance. I also
like EMDR, which is another approach eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing.
I like to integrate that with hypnosis. I mean, we
could go on forever about these mind body experiential approaches

(34:40):
to treatment that help a person be in the experience
so they can change it. Even if we're sitting on
the couch right now, we could float back to any
experience and revision it in a way that's more fruitful
and productive that we could keep going with it, even
change the course of history. You know, if I, for example,
had a trauma that I based in the past, I

(35:01):
can reconstruct it in a way that helps me move forward,
and experiential therapies like hypnosis or MDR and others help
me do that.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
And there's not that many psychologists that use hypnosis in
their practices, right.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
Well, I like to think that we can get that
number growing, and I'm going to do my best to
try to bring in more psychologists or therapists, you know,
clinical social workers, counselors who can learn hypnosis because it
is so powerful.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
When did you discover hypnosis?

Speaker 1 (35:46):
I realized that we go into kind of a trance
like state so many times a day without even thinking
about it, when we're fully absorbed in what we're doing.
And you know, whether again like I was saying before,
whether we're reading.

Speaker 3 (36:05):
A book or needle pointing or needle.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
Pointing exactly, you're in the zone. And I remember thinking,
you know, gosh, this is such a focused state of
attention where we're fully absorbed, you know, imagine we can
train ourselves to do this, and you know, in moments
where we want to solve a problem or shift our
mindset or mood. And and so I happened to live

(36:31):
in New Jersey at the time, and they had a
very active New Jersey Society of Clinical Hypnosis, and I
went to a meeting to see what it was about,
and they hooked me. They were teaching Ericsonian style hypnosis,
and I as soon as I could, got trained in
it and then became certified. I went through the training

(36:56):
and education with the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis to
become a clinical hypnotherapist, and then I became a consultant
as well. And I'm actually the president elect for the
American Society of Clinical Hypnosis right now. I just found
out a couple of weeks ago that I was elected

(37:17):
to be that. So I feel like, you know, I
hope that with the team working with me, we can
use or train more people who are out there, more
therapists to learn hypnosis and to use it with their
clients because it actually, in some cases it's a form

(37:38):
of brief therapy. I mean, you don't need fifty sessions
to change your behavior or to improve your performance. One
or two can even do the trick. And it's a
wonderful approach that can be integrated with other therapies as well.
If you're in a hypnotic trance, you can visualize more clearly,

(37:58):
you can learn more deeply, you could see things in
your mind's eye better, and it's just it's a way
to be more in tune with yourself and you can
integrate that with cognitive behavioral therapy or you know other
therapies that are out there that even talk therapy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
So, say you're on a run, right, because I feel
like running also as a time. We have a lot
of runners that listen to this show and you're work
and you're you know, say you're on a long run
and you're in a bit of a trance state, right,
because I feel like when you're long distance running, you're
in a trans Yes.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
So, now if you want to.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
Break through something on your own and kind of really
use that trance state to get in your own thoughts
and work through an issue that you're having, how do
you do that?

Speaker 3 (38:50):
Like what's the first step and then second step and third?

Speaker 1 (38:53):
Okay, well I've already answered that question. MVP process it's
another name for hidden I mean, hypnosis is an integration
of you know, being in a calm, absorbed state, you know, grounded.
That's the mindfulness piece.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
So the first step is recognizing it, yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
Recognizing Okay, I'm hitting my wall. I need to do
something here to keep pushing through.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Or you're not hitting your wall and you're just in
that trance state, right, Because I kind of want to
talk about it in the sense of, like, you know,
you're going out for a run and you have something
on your mind that you want to use that run,
yes to focus on, And that doesn't always mean you're
hitting a wall, like sometimes it's an enjoyable run.

Speaker 3 (39:38):
Like for me, I'm mostly going on enjoyable runs, let's
be real.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
Yeah. Yeah, So as you run, you just start to
kind of pay attention to your breathing, the cadence of
your steps, the almost the rhythm of your pace, and
you just kind of get into that flow. And they
say that, you know, once you're running or doing anything

(40:02):
for fifteen minutes, you can get into that flow state,
ease into it, and then you're just going and you know,
you might hear your heart beating and you're just fully
grounded in the moment, one step after the other, and
then whatever the problem is, I mean, your mind is

(40:24):
thinking more clearly and believe it or not as we run,
because we have to pay attention to where we're going.
They call that cognitive load. I mean you have to
kind of where's my next step. I don't want to
you know, fall into a crevice or anything. You're paying
attention without realizing it to keep going. And because you're

(40:48):
kind of in the zone, absorbed in the run, you're
not overthinking things. You're not ruminating, as the term is.
You know, we all talk about, Oh gosh, I overthink.
You know, I wake up in the morning and my
mind is trying to solve all the problems of the world,
and I just want to go to sleep. When you're running,
you know, that kind of goes away, and it allows

(41:11):
you to access as part of yourself below conscious awareness,
and things just bubble up to the surface. You know,
ideas that maybe had been suppressed, or thoughts, insights, sensations,
they just come to mind. And I think that is
why when you do your running interviews, people are more vulnerable,

(41:31):
able to open up more, you know, or be comfortable
with their vulnerability. You're not looking at them eye to
eye like we are. Now you're side by side, so
they feel comfortable and let's feace it. I mean, I
love evolutionary psychology. So much of what we do is
rooted in, you know, the dawn of human civilization. You know,

(41:51):
when we were living in keeves with with saber tooth
tigers oring outside. I mean, the way we bonded with
each other was by walking together, by running together, by
traveling together, moving side by side together. So there's hunting exactly,
you know, So it brings out that that primal bonding

(42:13):
I think, and you know, I always think of why
are those running interviews so powerful? I mean, why are
running groups taking off by storm? Why are they you know,
even if they're decades old, like I think of the
New York road Runners. I mean, they have just multiplied
exponentially in recent years. It's because when we run, we

(42:37):
can bond with whoever's next to us and talk about
I mean, surprise ourselves by how much we open up,
even with strangers. And so there's something about running, the dopamine,
the serotonin, you know, just the blood flow, even that
that loosens us up and we're in flow. And when

(43:00):
you're in flow, you're not overthinking things, they're just letting go.
And so it's very powerful. I think you're onto something, Kate.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
Yeah, And you know, I've been doing the Running Interview
show for almost three years now, and I have definitely noticed,
with not only guests but myself that you see these
psychological breakthroughs that happen when people are moving their bodies
and It's funny, but when I show up sometimes to
when I wake up, sometimes for a day, right because
I'm doing some often six interviews at a week, and

(43:30):
there's days where I wake up and I'm just like,
I don't really want to go for a run right now.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
And not only do I not want to go for
a run, but I don't want.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
To have to do it with somebody else and guide
the conversation and make sure they're feeling great.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
Right, because that is what a lot of what I do. Right.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
I show up for people while running, and I listen
to their story. But what I've found with the act
of running, for myself and also for my guests, is
by doing it, I actually automatically my energy shifts and
I get into a great state of mind. And even

(44:04):
if I wake up and I'm not feeling it that morning,
as soon as I start running, in the act of running,
my mood shifts and my energy shifts.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
Yeah yeah, and I mean yeah, there's the dopamine surge
and serotonin. I mean, we're calmer, We're just more at
peace with ourselves, and it feels good to move. We
are meant to move. We've got two legs, two arms,
We're meant to move, We're not meant to sit all day.

(44:36):
And I mean, they say, I don't know so much
about running, but walking alone is at one study that
said if you go for a walk and we're trying
to you know, process or sort through some problem you're facing,
it can be just as effective as cognitive behavioral therapy
or art therapy or just taking a walk. Imagine running, Yeah,

(45:00):
you know where, you're speeding things up a little bit
and there's nothing more freeing, liberating than than moving.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
One of the most common things that people say to
me after a run doing one of my running interviews
is are you sure we got it all? And I
think it's so funny because as somebody that's interviewing them,
I know kind of everything that they said during the interview,
and I'm thinking to myself, well, we just ran for
an hour, like, trust me, we got the full story.
But I think it's so funny because it is one
of the most common commonality things that people say to

(45:33):
me after a run. And I think it's because exactly
what you're saying. It's people almost forget what they say
during a run, and of course I know as the
interviewer we got the full story. Well, what is that phenomenon?
Why do people forget what they say?

Speaker 1 (45:44):
It's precisely what we've been talking about, Kate. We're in
the zone. And when you're in the zone, and I
like to bring it back to hypnosis, that is an
example of a trance like state. We are speaking from
that level of awareness below consciousness. It's just bubbling up
from deep within. We forget what we say. We're not

(46:09):
you know, calculating what we say. It just flows. The
words are flowing out, just like we're flowing in the
zone as we run. And and so I imagine that
you know, just like me, the people that you interview,
I'm going to forget what I'm saying. I don't know
what I've said. I'll be probably surprised when I watch

(46:31):
later and they're feeling that too, that what did I
I mean? It just flows out, And you know that
you are locked into a conversation, that you are in
the zone. When you're not calculating the words, You're not
you know what do I say next? It just comes
and and you can tell just by you know, the look,

(46:56):
the ease with which you're conversing, and and how new
topics come up. You know, you're pulling from the thread
of the previous one. It just flows. We can be
in the zone in a conversation, just as we can
be in the zone, you know, if we're a tennis
player serving the ball. That's why hypnosis is so powerful,

(47:20):
because we can access that state anytime we want and
use it in those moments that would be helpful, Like
if I have an anger management problem, if I learn
self hypnosis, the next time I feel like flying off
the handle, or I can't beat that impulse to lose
control and shout at my little kids and scare them

(47:42):
or whatever. You know, I think parents always have those
moments at times, and great if they don't, you know,
learning self hypnosis or you know, these experiential or experiential
approaches to therapy can help someone in that moment to

(48:02):
respond differently to anger or impatience or whatever it is.
So so I don't know if that answer did I
answer that question?

Speaker 2 (48:12):
You know?

Speaker 3 (48:12):
And I it does answer my question.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
And I also want to say, you know, when I
hear the term term hypnosis, and when a lot of
people hear the term hypnosis, they think woo woo.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
Like what is that?

Speaker 2 (48:25):
You know?

Speaker 3 (48:25):
Crazy town. So what do people get wrong about hypnosis?

Speaker 1 (48:38):
Hypnosis is a natural state that we we go in
multiple times a day, and it is not something you
know from left field. Maybe we should change the name.
That's why I like MVP. You know, the MVP process.
I mean, that's really what it is. It's a combination

(48:59):
of mindfulness visualization. And when I say the visualization doesn't
have to be just seeing things, it could be you
know the smell of your mom's brownies when you were
twelve years old, how that always made you feel like, Oh,
I mean, it could be any kind of sensation. And
also positive self talk coaching, setting expectations for yourself, you know,

(49:20):
to respond differently in a new pattern that is more
productive and effective. And you know that that makes sense
or can be adapted to you know, where you are
today in a more productive way.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
So, now, what are we seeing when we're on a
cruise ship and there's a hypnotist.

Speaker 3 (49:39):
On stage right or whatever wherever we are When.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
We see a hypnist still on stage, maybe in middle
school or you know, when they bring in bring in
somebody like that, what are we seeing when people become
a car on stage? Do you believe that could you currently,
could you right now hypnotize me to make me become
a car? And you know, look like I'm driving the
wheel and saying room, room, like, what are we seeing?

Speaker 1 (50:00):
If we had time, I maybe I could, but I won't.
I think it depends. There are some stage hypnotists who
really know what they're doing. But then hypnosis is used
for entertainment. You know, you're just unlocking something within a
person that helps free their inhibitions. And but keep in

(50:23):
mind that person is always in control. Hypnosis does not
take control away from people. And I think that's the
biggest fallacy about it, that if I am hypnotized, I'm
going to lose control. That is not correct. You are
always in control, and so my hunches. There might be
a lot of stage hypnotists who have actors or actresses

(50:45):
plant in the audience. I mean we see movies about
that all the time. You know that like their daughters
out there and raises her hand to volunteer, and those
you know, has a whole act planned once she gets
up on that stage. But you know, hypnosis does not
rob people of control. It's just a natural a state

(51:06):
that we can all go into to access, you know,
our deeper, higher inner selves. As woo wo as that sounds,
I mean, isn't that though, you know, one of the
goals in life to understand ourselves more clearly.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
Yeah, And you know, I've interviewed a handful of professional athletes.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
I've interviewed Gabby Thomas and Ny McLaughlin, Grant.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
Halloway, those are all tracks, you know, gold medalist Olympians
that are are runners. And one of the things that
they all talk about is visualization. And I know you've
talked about visualization as it comes to hypnosis and you know,
getting into trans like state when you're running. So explain
to us what visualization is in terms of performance for

(51:52):
people at that level. And then also, I know you
work with retired athletes and CEOs executives, right, and I'm
sure there's things that they get wrong about visualization that
you have to recoach. So talk to us about visualization
and what people get wrong about it.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Well, I guess the first thing that comes to mind
is what people get can get right about visualization. You know,
I find that I could work with a golfer and
even though I myself am not a golfer. Okay, what's
that movie with the happy place. Yeah, happy Gilmore or

(52:33):
what is it an Adam Sandler the Happy Guildmore in
part two just came out and you know, so everybody's like, oh, well,
I'm going to use hypnosis to go to my happy place.
And that's awesome. You know, if we could all, whether
we're a CEO of a big company or just running
a mile, you know, if we are going through a

(52:56):
tough period, if we can shift to what our happy places,
certainly gonna help shift our mood. I mean, if you
can visualize, you know, a place that's comfortable, safe, peaceful, secure,
that's gonna impact your mood. And mood impacts behavior. Behavior
impacts mood and impacts what we think. It's all related.

(53:19):
You know, you can you can shift in the moment
to be more effective, more productive. So that's something you
know that hypnosis can do for whether you're an executive
or an athlete, you can change shift how you are
in the moment, you know, to be more productive.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
Yeah, and to help yourself get through hard things, right,
Because when I talked to Gabby Thomas, She's like, when
I was compete, I forget her race. But when she was,
you know, running in the Olympics and got her gold medal.
The only thing she was thinking about was crossing that
finish line.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
Right, which, so that's another point that I want to
make Kate. One of the most power powerful things we
could do with visualization is to imagine the impact of
what we're trying to accomplish. So if I'm a tennis player,
you know, it's not going to help me much to
This is where visualization can get can be wrong. Like

(54:16):
if I'm thinking, okay, I want to visualize my muscles
relaxing inside me, or I want to visualize that you know,
I'm standing in that perfect ninety degree angle or whatever
with my feet in the that kind of visualization is
not going to help as much as especially for elite athletes,
as much as imagining the outcome or the impact of

(54:39):
what we're doing. So if I'm a tennis player and
I'm serving, I want to see where that ball is
going to land. I want to visualize the trajectory of
the ball through space, you know, I want to imagine
the sound of that ball hitting that tennis racket in
just the right place. That kind of visualization is going

(54:59):
to free up my body to do what it knows
how to do.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
And I like that you said to do what it
knows how to do, because another commonality that I found
with every single professional athlete that I have done an
interview with, a running interview show video with is that
they don't get nervous for the race because they know
that that's the cherry on top, Right's They've put in.

Speaker 3 (55:21):
The work and now they're ready to compete.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Yeah, yeah, and that's it. That that's the mean theme.
I think, free up your body to do what it
knows how to do, and the way to do that
is to visualize the outcome. That's why imagining that finish
line freeze up the runner, to allow the body to
just go at a pace even faster than you thought

(55:45):
you could handle. That's why a golfer, I mean even
yesterday we have that little miniature golf thing outside. I
don't know how to golf, but if I stand there
and I visualize the alignment of that of you know,
where I'm hitting the ball, seeing that ball go in
the hole. Sometimes I get a hole in one and

(56:06):
I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm just visualizing
the ball going into the hole and being aligned with
that trajectory that kind of visualization seeing the outcome of
what you're doing is so powerful, and you could apply
it to even you know, I know you keep saying,
what about CEOs, what do they have in common with
athletes or anybody in the workplace. If you're standing up

(56:28):
there trying to present your ideas to the board or
you know, to the people sitting at the table at
a meeting, if you can think of a visualize the
impact you want to have, you know, with what you're saying,
the value of what you're saying, If you want to
see smiles on their faces, or you want to see
them lean in and you know, open their eyes wide,

(56:51):
or curious to hear what you have to offer. If
you're visualizing that impact, those words are going to flow
out and you're going to find that you're smiling, you're
leaning in, you're curious about what's going to come out
of your mouth too, and you're all mirroring each other.
So that visualizing the impact is I think the most

(57:14):
powerful lesson whether you're an athlete or a leader in
the workplace, or a school teacher, whatever, visualizing the results
of what you're doing. Seeing that it helps you even
in the moment to get there right.

Speaker 3 (57:33):
So this podcast is called post frind high.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
It's all about the phenomena of what happens after we
work out right and after we move our bodies. And
most people think that post frind high is just the
endorphins that our body is feeling and experiencing. But is
that actually true or is something else happening.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
I think there's dopamine surges, there's endorphins, there's all so.
I mean the calmness, the piece of we just ran,
we just finished something meaningful, we just moved. I think we.

Speaker 3 (58:09):
Did something hard.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
We did something hard, And I think that's another reason
why you know, the running interviews before works so well,
because you're both facing kind of adversity together. You're pushing yourselves.
There's there's that kind of bond too. So we just
did it, you know, It's like we just crawled across
the finish line together. Now we're sitting down on enjoying,

(58:31):
reaping the joy of finishing something connected together. I think
that's supposed to run high too.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
There are a lot of drugs that can emulate that
post run high, that dopamine and that endorphin rush feeling.

Speaker 3 (58:48):
What are your thoughts on those types of medications.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Okay, that's a that's a big question. I have some
mentors for the years, psychologists who are master clinicians, and
they've impacted me pretty strongly. Uh. You know, one in
particular has a mantraus skills not pills, So no, Adall, Well,

(59:17):
hold on, I mean, Kate, I really believe that, you know,
medication has saved lives, no doubt. If I were severely
depressed and had a hard time getting out of bed
each day, you know, and and my psychiatrist is able
to prescribe something that will prevent suicidal thoughts or you know,

(59:40):
help me feel hope again. Okay, Uh, those are kind
of severe, you know, more extreme situations. I think in
normal life that the first thing to do is to develop,
to develop the skills to manage shifting our moods, or
to manage overthinking, or to manage you know, anger or

(01:00:02):
whatever it is. I mean, we're human beings, and we
always have that capacity to build the skills first. Pills
as a last resort. So I believe if honestly we
go into a doctor's office and say, oh, I'm feeling
low or down or anxious, and that doctor pulls out

(01:00:24):
a prescription pad before asking, hey, do you exercise? Do
you you know, move around? You know, what do you
do in life that gives you meaning and purpose? And
you know if that doctor is prescribing pills Before asking
those essential questions. There's so much research out there to

(01:00:47):
show that, you know, running or other exercise alone is
just as effective, if not more so, than any anti
anxiety or anti in any anti anxiety medication or anti
depressed on the marketplace. So it's so important to try
to build the skills first and to get the help

(01:01:09):
to do that, because that's what performance psychology is all about.
There are best practices, there are cutting edge techniques. There,
there's so much research to show how to build every
skill under the sun, and to try that first, unless,
of course, you know you're in a severe extreme distress,

(01:01:31):
then okay, then medication can save lives.

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
So self medicate first and then think about, well, what
comes by building the skills to do that?

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
Yes, and we can all learn. That's why I love
hypnosis so much. We can learn self hypnosis. We can
learn how to manage a reduction in an er in
wherever I was, I don't know, somewhere in New York
City mile twelve. You know, out the morphine.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
You know, say a twelve year old or thirteen year
old goes to a psychiatrist and they're struggling, struggling with
depression or ADHD. What are you saying to their parents
that they should do first? Right, And let's start with
depression because that's one of the most common things that
adolescents struggle with.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
You know, I think every every kid's different. And uh,
you know, if I talk to the parents, I would
first ask them, what have you tried so far? You know,
I try to understand, you know, tell me what you've
done so far to help with this challenge you're facing.
What is your kid done? And I would explore you know, uh,

(01:02:49):
what is that kid doing to move in their life?
You know, I again, We're meant to move, We're meant
to walk, We're meant to run, We're meant to get
outside un with nature. Nature is one of the things
that uplifts our spirits. What's the What about the kids'
social connections? Does he have friends? What are the things

(01:03:13):
that child is doing to channel their energy? Do they
have some hobby or passion or something they enjoy that
gets them moving? That gets them connected to other people,
that helps them feel meaning and purpose in life. I
would want to explore that first, you know, and that's huge.

(01:03:34):
That is huge that a child even can play, can
connect with friends, can move around, can explore, can be curious,
can discover the world. That's what childhood is all about,
to learn and grow. I would want to make sure
that the child has those outlets.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
And it's interesting that it all comes back to move, right,
whether it's physical, mental, or social, just the act of moving.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Yeah, I can't remember what country it is, like maybe Denmark.
They would not allow kids to have standardized tests until
they were thirteen years old and instead, you know, spend
so much of school time out in the playground. You know,
we learn by exploring, by doing, by moving, by being

(01:04:26):
connected to whether it's nature or you know, something that
we could play with and explore. And that's that's how
we learn and grow. And if that's taken away from
us or we're locked into you know, cell phones and
computers and and believe me, I know they have their

(01:04:47):
purpose too. I mean, we can do so many things
with the power of you know, digital technology, certainly, and however,
if we use it too much, Yeah, it's affecting our brains,
it's changing our personalities and and and it's it's preventing
all the ways. You know, I mentioned evolutionary psychology before.

(01:05:11):
Our bodies were meant to move and and and if
we don't do that, we're going to be depressed. I
know that if if if I go a couple of
days without moving, and I've had knee surgery too, and
you know sometimes you feel it. You feel it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
Yeah. And there's also there's something interesting to me about
social media where it's almost like you are socially connecting, right,
because you go on your phone and you scroll and
you see all these people doing all sorts of things, right,
and social media tends to make them look glamorous, are
so fun or you know, makes you have that fomo.

Speaker 3 (01:05:51):
Fear of missing out right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
As a psychologist, you know that understands the importance of.

Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
Being social and knowing and seeing what people are up to.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:06:02):
How is that kind.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
Of over communication and over seeing people doing different things
while we're scrolling on our phones affecting us?

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
Well, I mean it affects us in a number of
different ways, you know. One, I think seeing what everyone
else is doing and you know, feeling that our self
worth is determined by how many likes we get, not
to mention the dopamine surge we get every time we
see the number of likes growing. It's addictive. It's addictive,

(01:06:38):
and I mean, I know we have apps in our
phone to show us how much screen time we're we're
using in a in a typical week. It's kind of
scary sometimes when you see, you know, just the hours
and hours that that people are spending on their phones,
and it is addictive.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
Yeah, And I think about it a lot for younger kids, right,
because it's I mean, I've been in middle school, I've
been in high school. It was hard enough pre social media,
being in middle school saying oh, so and so are
friends and they're doing all these things after school and
I'm not part of it, right, And then it's a
whole other thing where then you're scrolling on Instagram as
a thirteen year old and you're seeing all these people
again doing things that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:22):
You're not a part of, you know. So it's like
it's already happening naturally, right. You see it in school.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
There's that comparison, there's that feeling of being left out
and that's the thing that's happened for years in generations,
but then social media amplifies it in such a big way, you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
Know, And I think it kind of circles back to
what we were just saying, Kate, that you know, we
we you know, especially if you're young, and you know,
without all those years of experience and trial and error
and learning from mistakes.

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
And understanding that it's okay to be left out right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
Exactly comfortable in your own skin, you don't realize that,
you know, yet when it's happening for the first few
times and you start to, you know, define who you
are based on what you're seeing on social media and
defining self worth and yeah, I have to be like
that in order for people to love me or like me,

(01:08:18):
or to be accepted in this world. And a lot
of times, I mean, perfection is not attainable. We are
human and perfect at best, and yet what we see
on social media looks so perfect, and so there's this
sort of mirage that you know, kids might be reaching

(01:08:39):
for that is elusive. And yeah, I honestly feel that
as hard as it is, because it is addictive. I mean,
you can't help it. We check our emails no matter
how old we are. You know, once you get connected
to a phone, if you leave the house without it,
it's like you left your arm behind or something. Everybody's

(01:09:02):
had that kind of experience, but it's freeing, and I've
heard a lot of families sometimes do this, to put
the phone in a box under a bed or something
for the weekend and just to live life without it,
you know, to go outside and run, to hike in

(01:09:22):
the woods, to absorb nature, to feel the simple pleasures
of living, of being grounded in the moment without succumbing
to the urge to see, you know, what the next
post is, or how many likes, or getting that dopamine
surge from a little box. We can get that from

(01:09:43):
so many other sources.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
As somebody that's been practicing for over thirty years as
a psychologist, you've seen life pre social media and during
social media, right, So you've seen cases of people now
kind of coming in probably because.

Speaker 3 (01:10:08):
Of the effects largely of the phone, especially young.

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
Kids, would be yeah, yeah, So what is.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
The biggest change that you've seen since the rise of
social media as far as like what people.

Speaker 3 (01:10:18):
Are coming into you for help with.

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
Well, I think it's the same issues you know, anxiety, depression, trauma,
you know, some experiences that may still live with them
and haunt them in some way that they want to
process or sort through so they can move on in life.
And I think that in so many ways, social media,

(01:10:47):
the phone can numb ourselves. We can numb ourselves to
dealing with those issues. I mean, it's not. One of
my mentors says, it's not depression that happens to us,
it's life that happens to us. And if we're spending
life scrolling, you know, how are we going to build

(01:11:08):
the skills to deal with problems and challenges that occur
every day? And yeah, life is hard, it is rough,
and god, you know, Kate, when I think of people
living in war torn countries and how lucky we are.
You know that we can go outside and chances are

(01:11:31):
you know we're gonna be okay. I mean, if we
can just get out and enjoy nature, enjoy connecting with friends,
enjoy having conversations, enjoy solving problems without the help of

(01:11:51):
you know, a computer, just to feel the satisfaction of
figuring out things on our own. We have the capacity
to do that. Our minds, bodies can work together to
help us get the results and feel that incredible satisfaction
and high from having crossed the finish line on our own.

(01:12:12):
I cannot cross the finish line scrolling on my phone.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
Yeah, And you know what's kind of funny, But I
had somebody say this to me the other day, one
of our family members. They said that they enjoy going
camping in the mountains because it reminds them of how
insignificant they are, right, just because you're this small speck
of a person in this vast mountain range, right, and
there's so much nature and life going on around you.

(01:12:38):
And while I don't want to be reminded that we're insignificant,
because of course our lives are significant, I think it
is so important to be put into that perspective sometimes
of being like, you know, my problems feel so big, right,
and then you get into the world and you realize,
I'm my problems aren't that big, right?

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
Nature bigger than us, and there's something you know, no
matter what religion you might be or you know, whether
you believe in God or not, we all have those
moments where there's a force bigger than us moving through us.
And I think you feel that in nature nature's a
force or outdoors. You know, that's how we began outside

(01:13:24):
under the starry night, you know, with whatever the equivalent
of crickets chirpping, where feeling the breeze, the seeing the clouds.
I mean, there's something about that, Keith that no drug
can give us. That's how we began and to return
to that. We have the power to do that every day,

(01:13:45):
to go out there. I mean even there's all this
research on you know, how cities need parks. We need
those parks. We need to commune with nature, we need
to see trees. There's research on how if we're in
a hospital room, you know, recovering from something, if there's
a window in that room and there's a much more
than a window, but a tree outside in the courtyard,

(01:14:09):
the days that we're in the hospital are reduced. You know,
there is something about connection with nature and connection with
people that is far more powerful than any medication. And
so when you are out there camping, yes, we are
just part of something bigger than us. I don't know

(01:14:31):
if that means we're insignificant, but you know it's it's
it's but I.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
Liked hearing that because it was almost like it's kind
of like art moves you write, words can move you.
And I liked when he said that because I'm like, yeah,
and as much as I again, we are not insignificant,
but I do like how you rewarded it as But
nature is so much bigger than us, right, And sometimes
it's important to step into those settings because I think,
you know, there's so many just different instances where you

(01:14:57):
can feel like your problems are so big and there's
all these things weighing you down.

Speaker 3 (01:15:03):
And then it's like you go into the world and
you realize.

Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
You know, I'm somebody that lives in New York City, right,
there's people that are in war what did you say, war?

Speaker 1 (01:15:11):
War torn countries.

Speaker 3 (01:15:12):
We're torn countries, right. It's like our problems could be worse.
Get outside, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
And my favorite thing about talking to you is as
a psychologist that sees and hears about such a vast
range of issues that people are having, right from extremely
traumatizing situations, people passing away, dealing with extreme levels of grief,
extreme levels of depression, anxiety. Like, there's so many issues

(01:15:37):
that we can face mentally, but just by getting outside
and moving your body and connecting with people and connecting
with people and yourself in a deeper way that can
cure you.

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):
Absolutely, yeah, Kate, And I think you know, it helps
us to circle back to where we began. You know,
we were talking about running, being in the zone. That
is when there's a force bigger than us going through us.
And we can make that happen anytime we want by
doing what we love, whether it's painting or writing, or running,

(01:16:13):
or playing tennis or standing up in front of a crowd,
you know, pouring our hearts out about what we're passionate
about and feel has meaning or purpose, you know, connecting
with people, building communities. We are in the zone in
those moments and if we you know, people can find

(01:16:33):
those moments in their lives and you know, we can't
help it. It's part of being human, you know. But
just to you know, have two moments like that in
the morning, two moments like that in the afternoon, two
moments like that in the evening. That is a meaningful,
purposeful life. Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
Yeah, And if it was easy, it wouldn't be worth it, right,
And I wanted to circle back as we kind of
wrap up here, but you know, you you broke your
arm and to get surgery during your last New York
City Marathon, and about two weeks later you were already
talking about all the races that you were signing up for, right,
So I also think it's just while it's important to
get outside and move your body, as simple as that
may be, it's also important to challenge yourself to.

Speaker 3 (01:17:13):
Do hard things.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
And you now have coming up in the next several months,
you're going to be doing the Berlin Marathon, maybe the Chicago.

Speaker 1 (01:17:20):
Marathis to the Chicago Marathon and the New York Marathon.
Everybody keeps telling me I got a redemption journey to
New York again. I'll be honest, I don't know if
my legs are capable of doing three America three marathons,
then I think it's five or six weeks the way
they fall schedule wise. But I'm going to do the

(01:17:41):
first one and go all out. That's Berlin, and then
see how I feel for Chicago, and if I have
to walk half of it, I'll walk half of it,
and then two weeks later is New York again. As
you get older, legs aren't what they used to be.
But if I have to walk the New York Marathon,
I will I just want to be a part of
the experience and to feel what it's like to cross

(01:18:03):
that finish line that I didn't get to this year. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
One of the things that I want to ask you
as your daughter in law is, you know, I know
you've lived a pretty interesting life. Right in high school,
you lived in Brazil for a bit, you speak like
six languages. What made you want to go into psychology?

Speaker 1 (01:18:20):
I think everything boils down to what motivates people across cultures.
Everything boils down to why do we behave as we do?
And I just wanted to help learn how to help
people help themselves, you know. I think living overseas, learning
from other cultures, seeing the United States from across the oceans,

(01:18:43):
you know, kind of looking at our own country and
cultures from a different angle, it just really inspired me
to learn how people push through adversity, how they face it,
you know. And you know your ad is different from
my adversity, but that's really what we're all going through

(01:19:04):
in life. Life is not easy, you know, and and
learning from other people, other cultures how you face adversity,
it inspired me to be a psychologist so I could
help people help themselves. And I find that. You know,
no matter who I'm working with, I learn just as much,
if not more, from them than they could ever learn

(01:19:26):
from me. I think it's just you know, partly establishing
that connection, you know, finding that place where they can
help themselves and feel meaning purpose. That's it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:38):
So you had a very we talked about social media.
You had a very viral clip that went off two
years ago when you were running the New York City
Marathon where you ran over to Jeremy, my husband, your son,
and you said, Jeremy, how does my lipstick look?

Speaker 3 (01:19:50):
My nabling super staymadic? Is it still on? And I
think that was at the twenty two mile mark, and
guys trust that that lipstick was still on. It really
doesn't come off even after your.

Speaker 2 (01:19:59):
Show or any all the things it could make if
you're probably an entire week.

Speaker 3 (01:20:03):
That's how much lipsticks.

Speaker 1 (01:20:05):
More than one marathon for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:20:06):
But what was it like for you as a psychologist
seeing that reaction? Like, what did that show to you
about the positive side of social media?

Speaker 1 (01:20:16):
You know, I was blown away, Kate. I think it
was humbling to you know, I have I like to think,
you know, as any other person, we all have our
share of accomplishments in life, and then to see that
that like two second thing reached more people than anything
I've ever done. That I like to think maybe has

(01:20:39):
more meaning than wearing lipstick. I was blown away.

Speaker 3 (01:20:43):
More meaning than wearing lipstick or being in a viral
clip online. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:20:46):
Yeah, I just was blown away by how some two
second thing can have such an impact on the power
of social media. I think I didn't realize until that
that viral clip how powerful it is. And I started
reading through some of the comments and there there were,
my god, there were a couple that made me cry.

(01:21:06):
I just couldn't believe that like two seconds can impact
someone I've never met. I mean, one guy I think
commented about when Jeremy screamed mom, mom, how it reminded
him of when his mother was being buried and they
were putting her coffin into the ground and he was
screaming mom, mom, with the same tone, the same intensity.

(01:21:28):
I just burst into tears. I couldn't believe how some
two second thing with you know, was still fresh, my
lipstick is still still going strong, you know, and Jeremy's
screaming mom mom, how that could touch people in so
many different ways was an education for me.

Speaker 3 (01:21:48):
Yeah, and even even you know that was two years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:21:51):
But even this past marathon, we had posted obviously, we
posted a video about you, you know, after the marathon
to say, you know, you didn't you didn't finish this
marathon where you fell at mile twelve, you got hurt,
but you're already talking about the next marathons that you're
gonna run, So you're gonna come back stronger or walk,
and you know what, that's that's a common experience that
so many athletes have, right Like I tore my When

(01:22:11):
I tore my ACL, I had to go through a
year of basically not even being able to walk or run,
and all I could think about was coming back stronger, Right,
So I think that just shows the grit that people
have and uh, the urge to come back stronger and
be able to do what they wants did. And obviously
there's people that get injured and can't do what they
want did and they come back mentally stronger in a
different way.

Speaker 1 (01:22:31):
That's when you reroute and change the finish line and
it's a different story.

Speaker 2 (01:22:34):
It's a different story. And Jordan Litz, the guy that
we just had on you were talking about a dcent fit.

Speaker 3 (01:22:41):
But you know that was interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:22:44):
Too, because you touched people there in a way that
you know, I had the people. I had the people
at the medical tent that were messaging on Instagram saying,
oh my gosh, like that was your mother in law,
like I can't believe it, Like I was the one
that helped her at the medical tent, or I was
the one that read her out of the race. So
it is interesting how these micro interactions can really affect

(01:23:05):
people in a bigger way, and then you use social
media to amplify it, and all of a sudden, you know,
we had Megan reach out right and ye.

Speaker 1 (01:23:11):
The story of Megan, who now we're best buddies emailing
each other. She got hurt at mile twelve too, she
was further away from a medical tent, so her story
was a little more excruciatingly painful and longer. But we're
we're gonna both run the Berlin Marathon next door. I haven't.
We've talked with each other on the phone, and you

(01:23:31):
know we're already. I'm gonna tell her what hotel we're
staying at. So I'd made a new friend from this.

Speaker 2 (01:23:36):
Let's tell the story of Megan really quickly, so we
post a video of Dana running the New York City Marathon,
getting injured at mile twelve, then being at the hospital.

Speaker 3 (01:23:43):
Afterwards and having to get surgery.

Speaker 2 (01:23:44):
I then get an email the next day from a
woman named Megan who reaches out and says, Kate, I'm
so sorry to hear about your mother in law.

Speaker 3 (01:23:54):
Funny story, but.

Speaker 2 (01:23:55):
I actually also got injured during the New York City
Marathon around mile twelve and have had you know more
about what happened to her medically than I do. But
she was like, the crazy coincidence here is that you know,
during the spring last spring, I was running the Boston
Marathon with my daughter and Dana, your mother in law,
actually happened to be right next to us during the

(01:24:17):
Boston Marathon, and we have a picture to show it.
And the picture is you in front of her, her
daughter and her running running the Boston Marathon. And she
actually has that photo framed in her house. And it
was just crazy, a crazy coincidence that you know, X
months later, at the New York City Marathon the same
year you and her got injured at that same spot.

Speaker 3 (01:24:38):
So it's this weird kismet that happened.

Speaker 2 (01:24:40):
That I did an injury, but you two both have
that same mentality of coming back stronger. And she was
talking about all the marathons that she's now signing up for.
And now you guys are running the Berlin Marathon together
and I'm sure not together, but you're both running it
and I'm sure you'll meet up.

Speaker 1 (01:24:53):
Oh absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:24:55):
But it also just went to show that it puts
things into perspective, right, because it also put things into
perspective when we were at the hospital with you and
you it literally felt like a graz Anatomy episode where
all these people are being rolled into the hospital on
stretchers with bandages on their head and there, you know,
their race bibs on their stomachs mile twelve.

Speaker 1 (01:25:16):
I hope they, you know, do something about mile twelve
next year because it got a lot of people, not
just mile.

Speaker 3 (01:25:23):
Twelve, right, it's the entire marathon.

Speaker 2 (01:25:25):
And it just goes to show that, like, you're not
alone in the experiences that you're having.

Speaker 3 (01:25:29):
Even if you feel like the worst thing.

Speaker 2 (01:25:31):
Ever has happened to you, just know that there's other
people experiencing maybe the exact same.

Speaker 1 (01:25:36):
Thing, right, Absolutely, Kate yes, yes, we're not alone.

Speaker 3 (01:25:41):
We're not alone.

Speaker 1 (01:25:41):
We are never alone.

Speaker 3 (01:25:42):
And was that nice for you to be able to
connect with Megan?

Speaker 1 (01:25:45):
Oh gosh, yes, yeah, and we've done countless emails back
and forth since then, phone call and yeah, yeah, talked
on the phone. I can hardly wait to meet her
in person. But and maybe it'll be at the Berlin Marathon.
We'll see. But just amazing how connections can arise from social.

Speaker 3 (01:26:05):
Media and mysterious ways.

Speaker 1 (01:26:08):
Oh yes, yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:26:10):
Well let's leave everybody with one final piece of advice
from you, psychologist, doctor Dana Libo, performance coach, give us
one piece of advice that you want everybody to to.

Speaker 3 (01:26:20):
Take away from this episode.

Speaker 1 (01:26:22):
Well, I you know, I said this even in the
running interview we did. I do believe in KFG, you know,
keep again whatever you want the f to stand.

Speaker 3 (01:26:31):
You can curse on this podcast, Okay, keep fucking going.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
Uh just just that's one piece. And when you need
to press the pause button, unrest and recover, allow yourself
that as well, you know, but don't be two mired
in one and not the other. Find that sweet spot,

(01:26:56):
you know, keep going, rest, recover, keep going, rest, recover,
but find your sweet spot. And also, you know everyone
has meaning purpose. Keep running towards that, you know, whatever
it is for you, find your meaning, find your purpose

(01:27:17):
if you don't have it already, but you probably do
and know what that is. Keep going, keep going for that.

Speaker 3 (01:27:24):
Yeah, just keep moving.

Speaker 2 (01:27:25):
And you know, I ask people like you said, I
ask people in every single one of my running interviews,
what is a quoter model that.

Speaker 3 (01:27:31):
You live by?

Speaker 2 (01:27:32):
And some people think it's catchy and you know, they're
catchy whatever the word is. And some people think it's,
you know, maybe like a lame question, but I actually
love the question because you never know what people are
going to say, and it's always the short quotes that
always stand out to me. It's not the elaborate quotes,
although you know, you get a lot of people that
quote the man in the Arenal quote.

Speaker 3 (01:27:52):
Which I always do love.

Speaker 2 (01:27:55):
But things like KFG, these simple mantras that we can
replan our head are the important ones, right, And it's
the ones that stick with us in those hard moments,
And the ones that have always stood out to me
are ones like you said, KFG, keep fucking going. There's
another one, Nicholas Thompson. We mentioned him in this episode,
but his is right foot, left foot, right foot left,
Oh simple. And then the one that I always think

(01:28:15):
about is you can't be one hundred percent all of
the time. And a big time runner said that to me,
and that's always been my favorite quote because I think
as athletes and as runners and as people that value
working out, we hate those moments where we have to
turn it off right and the foot can't be on
the gas right the gas pedal the entire time. But
it's important to remember that you can't be one hundred

(01:28:37):
percent all of the time, and you have to have
moments where you reset. But then you have to have
moments too where you decide, Okay, I've reset, and now
I have to just keep moving.

Speaker 1 (01:28:47):
Yeah, yeah, you said it, Keate, So keep keep moving
and whatever you can do to help the world keep moving.
I'm one hundred percent behind you, and we all are.

Speaker 2 (01:29:01):
Well. Thank you so much Data for being on our
podcast today.

Speaker 3 (01:29:04):
I'm feeling good.

Speaker 2 (01:29:05):
I hope your post run high absolutely has kicked into
full gear by.

Speaker 1 (01:29:09):
Now, definitely, and I think it's gonna it's gonna last
for some time.

Speaker 3 (01:29:13):
Kate.

Speaker 1 (01:29:14):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:29:15):
We are currently in Palm Springs, California. We are just
wrapping up a family Christmas trip that we've been on
for four days. Here we come out to calib We've
been coming out to Palm Springs for a few years now,
and then the next year might be a different location,
who knows. But as a reminder, Jeremy and I are
in California for the next you know, several weeks. We're

(01:29:36):
gonna be here till the end of February, and then
we're going to be in Austin, Texas for a week
filming with some other really cool guests like Dana. But
if you guys have questions for Dana, she might be
visiting California in the next couple of months while we're
out here.

Speaker 1 (01:29:50):
Again, give me an excuse to come back.

Speaker 3 (01:29:53):
Kate.

Speaker 1 (01:29:53):
I'm so again honored that I've was invited included in
all this, and you know, the whole family first of all,
so thrilled to have you a part of our family now,
and I know it's still new, and we're just so
excited that you're a part of this clan and whatever
we can do to support you along the way, we're
here for you, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:30:12):
Well, you know one of the things that we can
do to support is. Guys.

Speaker 2 (01:30:15):
If you have any questions for Dana coming out of
this episode that we did not answer, please dm me
on Post Run High. We're at Kate Max and we
will write all of your questions down and the next
time we are sitting down with Dana, we will be
sure to answer them. I'm sure there's a lot of
questions that came up to you, and I apologize if
I didn't scratch that itch for you during this episode,

(01:30:36):
but we'll do it next time.

Speaker 1 (01:30:37):
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation Kate.

Speaker 2 (01:30:41):
Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode
with Doctor Dana Libo. I hope you enjoyed our conversation
as much as I know our team did. If you
guys are getting a lot of value out of Post
Run High, please make sure to follow this podcast and
share this episode with somebody who could learn a decent
bit from it. We love you, guys and appreciate you

(01:31:03):
so much, and we will see you next week on
Post Run High. As always, our dms are open. Any
follow up questions that you have for doctor Dana Libo
please slide into our dms and ask them, and we're
always open to guest requests, so keep us posted on
what you're thinking and who you'd like to learn from next.

(01:31:27):
Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode
with doctor Dana Libo. I hope you enjoyed our conversation
as much as I know our team did. If you
guys are getting a lot of value out of Post
Run High, please make sure to follow this podcast and
share this episode with somebody who could learn a decent
bit from it. We love you, guys and appreciate you

(01:31:50):
so much, and we will see you next week on
Post Run High. As always, our dms are open. Any
follow up questions that you have for doctor Dana Libo
please slide into our dms and ask them, and we're
always open to guest requests, so keep us posted on
what you're thinking and who you'd like to learn from next.

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Host

Kate Mackz

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