The System High Performers Use to Win in Every Area of Life | Kent Yoshimura

Kent Yoshimura is a true multi-hyphenate performer — founder of Neuro, competitive Muay Thai fighter, ultra-marathon runner, and artist — and this conversation is about the system behind how he operates at a high level across everything.

We talk about how discipline compounds across different areas of life, why creativity is an edge in business, and how that mindset helped him build Neuro into one of the fastest-growing brands on TikTok Shop.

Kent shares what training in Thailand taught him about humility, how running has become his most powerful tool for clarity, and why suffering isn’t a reason to quit — it’s a signal to break through.

This episode is for anyone who feels pulled in multiple directions, and wants to understand how to turn that into an advantage — not a weakness — by building a more complete version of themselves.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
All great things were built by people no more capable
than your actively learning and pushing yourself every single day.
There is no problem. I don't think any human being
in the world can solve. Ken Tiyoshimira is a co
founder of Neuro.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
A competitive Muay Thai fighter, ultra marathon runner, and mirroralist.
This episode is about how someone operates at a high
level across every domain and the system underneath all of it.
Suffering is not a reason to quit, it's a reason
to break through.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
I think most people quit too early. Whatever you dive
into is almost a stress test system into what makes
you a comprehensive individual. All the different fields that I've
entered into and tried to be somewhat good at, they've
all built on each other to create me more comprehensively.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
You said that fighting teaches you not just how to react,
but how to respond.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
If you're reacting to everything in life, you're going to
be absolutely paralyzed. If you don't cheat on training, training
will never cheat on you. I think that idea of
creativity or artistic thinking, everyone has it. It's just how
is it built into the system. How do you apply
it to everything else that you do? In your life.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Hi guys, Kate here, thank you so much for tuning
into today's conversation. Please do us a favor and follow
the show wherever you're listening. It helps us continue bringing
you inspiring conversations. We'll be right back with our conversation
after this shortbreak, Kent. For our viewers listening today, what

(01:30):
is the reason you think it's important for them to
stay and what is it that you've spent your life
figuring out that actually matters to them.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
I think humans are such complex creatures that we all
have the capability to do more than, you know, just
one thing. And for myself, I truly believe that in
all the different fields that I've entered into and you know,
tried to be somewhat good at, they've all built on

(01:59):
each other to create me more comprehensively, rather than what
some might say is a lack of focus.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
And in twenty twenty four, Neuro your company was the
fastest growing brand on TikTok shop, But long before that
was a company. As you're saying, it seems like you
were building something else entirely, which is a system for
how to perform. So let's dive in. Tell us about
your journey and what led you to building neuro and
kind of all the things that you just mentioned.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
Okay, I mean how far back should we go? Because
you know, even when I was young, my you know,
both my parents were working, so daycare for me was karate,
and martial arts became such a big part of my
life because and my identity frankly, because it was where
you know, I mean, I had a father figure, but
he wasn't really around because she was just so busy,

(02:51):
Like I never really knew my dad until I was thirteen,
So that martial arts environment became the place where I
was able to find I guess that like some sort
of masculinity that I could attach myself to. And in
that process, I think developing all the ideologies of martial

(03:11):
arts and embedding that into the way I prosed school,
the way I approached other sports that I did, the
way I continue to pursue it, and then eventually got
into neuroscience because I wanted to learn how cognitive performance
matches up with physical performance. It leaned the groundwork out
for ultimately where I am now, which is, you know,
a business owner that's constantly thinking about system building, constantly

(03:34):
thinking about processes, and you know, even prior to that
post college, post fighting career, because I didn't want to
get punched in the face anymore. I went into the
arts because it was something that I realized I could
push myself more further mentally and went to uSell a

(03:55):
film school, dropped out because I was shooting a documentary
with my friend Najib that didn't get produced and financed
because one of our executive producers passed away. It was
so Stephan Scarbeck was a producer for Amy Winehouse, and
there's a possibility that Amy Winehouse wasn't going to come

(04:15):
in and be an executive producer for a film, but
shinded up passing away that same year. So it kind
of took me down this entire different path of Okay,
what's something I can control, and that was art illustration.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Then eventually murals that's so interesting that you had both
the creative background and the athletic background, because you know,
it's kind of like what you said at the beginning
of the episode, where sometimes people feel like certain things
don't mix. But I love knowing that you had this
deep interest in athletics and that expressed itself through martial arts.
And you know, I know, you also run out your
marathons and you do a lot of other things athletically too,

(04:47):
But it started out with martial arts, and then post
college it translated creatively. Did you always know you were
a creative person?

Speaker 1 (04:53):
I mean I told my mom. I was like, I'm
going to be an artist, mom, like when I was
five years old, and like any other Asian parents, she
was like, no, the hell you are not. You are
definitely not becoming an artist. But it's something that you know,
Even when I was a young age, I art wasn't
necessarily the end goal, Like the idea of like doing
art wasn't the end goal. It was really I saw

(05:14):
it as like the ultimate form of freedom, even as
a child, like when I was like drawing with crayons
or I was putting Collagius together. It was this idea
that I could create anything within the boundary, like within
my own physical boundaries, and to me that was really
interesting and eventually, you know, that let me down the
path of like, Okay, how do I apply this to
my martial arts, which obviously had the word art in it,

(05:37):
because there is physical creativity that you could do with it.
How do I apply this to my thought process with
how I even study, which is the reason I got
into neo trop pics during my own research, you know,
taking things like vasopressin so I could enhance my short
term memory before tests, so I can maximize my efficiency
to actually doing art in the former murals and painting

(06:00):
in big ways that you know, I could see a
vision and I had to actualize it in some way.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
I grew up in a very athletic household where sports
were always the focus. But I relate to you in
a big way because I also had a big artistic
background and I loved taking art classes and that was
a side of me that I didn't tap into till
after college as well, because I kind of never knew
like where could this go? Yeah, So I like knowing
and hearing you say that art can be expressed in
so many different things, whether it be in studying neuroscience

(06:30):
and how you actually study, to how you perform athletically
in a martial arts practice. I mean, I was always
a big believer that having that kind of visual mindset
and that artistic background allowed me to like see a
field differently.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, do you think you're do you think of yourself
as like more of a like a visual learner. Definitely right,
And I think like that visual learning translates a lot
into even like with martial arts, you learn forms or
you learn certain moves. You could almost place yourself because
you're a visual learner into these situations, so you can
learn how to like more efficiently run because you could

(07:03):
to apply yourself to that. And I don't know, I
think that idea of like creativity or artistic thinking, everyone
has it, it's just how is it built into the system.
How do you apply it to everything else that you
do in your life?

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, and I often find that some of the most
successful founders are really creative and can tap into that
side of themselves. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
I mean think about Steve Jobs, you know, one of
the most famous entrepreneurs ever to exist, and he's a
guy that dove deep into calligraphy, deep into design, and
that dictated how he changed the I mean, honestly he
changed like the idea of industrialization. How you take the
industrialization of computers and personalize it to people and now
we're on it for like five six hours a day.

(07:45):
These are things that we use on a daily basis
because we could almost like we feel comfortable using it
because of the design, because of the art components of it.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
You have a pretty athletic family, right Your dear sister
was Olympic level weight trainer.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, she's yeah, Olympic little weightlifting, which was like a
national level. Right now, What was.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
Going on in your household that like really pushed athletics.
Was this just something that you guys liked challenging yourself
to do.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
It's so funny because like my sister and I were
watching old videos like a few months ago, and we're
just doing like summersaults and we're like jumping on the bed,
and I think, like my mom, because my dad was
always away for work, my mom couldn't handle two kids
like just running around. So she was like, you know what,
just do your thing. We're running around, you know, we're
like both of our daycares was something athletic, you know,

(08:30):
like whether it was swimming for my sister or martial
arts for me. And then eventually my sister got really
into equestrian, but like it was a very expensive sport,
so she had to get really good at it so
that she could ride other people's horses, so that she
could you know, like she could pay for her own training,
and then she got into CrossFit, which eventually led her

(08:51):
down this path of Olympic weightlifting. And yeah, it's like
my sister is like a freak athlete. It's unbelievable. And
then for me it was just always martial arts. I
was like living in the studio, in the dojo just
all the time, Like that was like my safe haven.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
So when you went to see Si Diego, you were
balancing Moi Thai in Thailand. Yes, with a neuroscience degree. Yes,
and you Okay, so paint the picture for us what
did that actually look like in college? Like how were
you spending your time? Were you mainly in California or
were you doing online classes?

Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah? So, I mean I hinted at this a little
bit with like the vasopresant thing, but there was a
point where I knew I had to maximize my study
time and my schooling. So that's really when I started
getting into neotropics and what supplements I could take to
enhance whether it's like short term memory or you know,

(09:48):
efficiency in taking quizzes, but and tests. But Moi Thai,
I would be fighting in I would be training like
about four to six hours every single day, I would
be training in Thailand. During the summers, we would go
out to set Yotong down in Pataya and train out there,
and we always have a fight for the King's Birthday,
which happens around August. And then I would go to

(10:09):
Japan and stay at the Kochikan, which is the number
one judo university in Japan, and train there, train with
Imperial Guards, or train with the Japanese Olympic judo team
at the Codocon. And so it was a lot of traveling.
But my like San Diego has an incredible judo team,
Like the Olympic judo coach justin Flores is actually down

(10:31):
there still, and so it was almost like this space
where I was and I wasn't even thinking about it
in high school.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
You know.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
It wasn't like I'm going to San Diego because the
judo is so good down there. It's like I was
very fortunate enough to find that opportunity that I could
discover a really good community of martial artists which allowed
me to excel even further.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, and I can imagine that practicing those sports in
those places, especially my tie, I'm saying it wrong, tie, guys,
I can't talked about this. My tie is a drink
MOI sport. Hello, Okay, I could imagine that practicing Muay
Thai in Thailand is a very intense and unique experience, right, So, like,

(11:15):
what does the training look like on a day to
day I.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
Mean, it's it's intense, but it's it's almost like a
reframing of how training is here. So the facilities definitely
aren't as nice. There's more archaic ways that you're doing things.
But it's you're doing roadwork in the morning. You wake up,
you do roadwork in the morning. You know you're what
is roadwork? Oh running, So you go run like a
five k or whatever in the morning, five five k

(11:39):
to like five miles whatever in the morning, and then
you spend basically like if you go to the gym's
it's so funny and I could probably pull up some
pictures later, but they just have these giant recycled tires
all over the gym and that's where you practice, like
you're jumping and like basically your like balance work, and

(12:00):
then you like spar you do pad work. Like the
mats you could tell are like incredibly gross, you know,
because there's no way of like really cleaning them, and
these are the places that produce champions. And all these
people that you know become champions are five year old
kids whose parents put them into more Tide because that

(12:20):
was their only way of making an income. And these
are the people that you're training against. So you could
imagine that the level of people that you know have
to fight for their life are the ones that are
also your training partners. And just the it's just like
one makes you have an appreciation for a life, but
allows you to push yourself further because it's like, how

(12:43):
many more resources do we have than all these people?
Like you have to get better if I'm hanging with them, Like.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
What is it like showing up as an American university student? Right,
you know you're in the US. It's very different than
that type of environment that you're scriving, Like if that's
super gritty?

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah, I mean, well, and how do you compare? Thai
people are the nicest people in the world, and there's
no level of like I feel there's cynicism like embedded
in American culture unfortunately, But when you go to Thailand
and you're coming there as someone who's willing to experience
the culture and actually train alongside these people. They will

(13:20):
accept you with open arms as long as you can
hang out with them. And the way you can hang
with them is not giving up knowing that your place
is like to get better and having that same experience
that everyone else is experiencing. So if you're trying to
have a different experience than them, which is just like
natural in any environment they are, it's like with anything,

(13:42):
you know, like don't be an outlet, don't be acting
like the American tourist in their environment, like respect what
they're doing and go in and like learn as much
as possible, and then you take that and then you
take it back to the United States.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Did you have to learn the language while you were there?

Speaker 1 (14:00):
No, I know, like three words?

Speaker 2 (14:02):
What did you like? What would you say you learned
about yourself through being in that environment?

Speaker 1 (14:08):
I mean beyond the fact that you know, I'm incredibly
grateful that I grew up in America, it's actually after
saying these how these people live and what they do
every single day, it's you know, there's like a a
level of humility that you have to approach anything with.

(14:30):
And when you see that, there's a level of excellence
that these people push for every single day, knowing that
their life depends on it, and you're doing this almost
has a hobby relative to how they're experiencing muatai in
their own world. It's I mean, I'm so privileged, you know,
I'm so privileged to be able to even experience this

(14:52):
pay for like, you know, however much plane tickets were
to fly out there, stay out there for like two weeks,
three weeks at a time, and you know, be able
to go go back and sleep in a nice bed
once I'm back at home. It's like, it's incredible, And
so I don't know, you have to you have to
just like enjoy all these experiences and allow them to

(15:12):
just just take it and elevate who you are.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
What was the goal for you with training there? Like
did you want to be a professional fighter?

Speaker 1 (15:20):
I did? But you know, it's funny because I think
sometime in my junior year, I realized that me wanting
to be a professional fighter was me chasing my ego
more than anything. And fighting has always you know, my
original karate coach always taught me, if you don't cheat
on training, like training will never cheat on you. And

(15:42):
so I dove in headfirst and put myself into fighting,
like and it was always about like, how can I
make myself better? How can I make my It was
always about me within this environment, and I realized, especially
being in Thailand, it was so eye opening to for
It was interesting training with the professional team because you

(16:04):
start understanding what team is in a sport that's so individualistic,
and how important that is. And at some point something
clicked in my brain where I realized that that's not
really the path I wanted to go down, Like I
can push myself in a physical and mental way, but
how do I apply that to doing something bigger by
doing it with a greater group of people.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
I really liked what you said to me yesterday on
the phone. You said that fighting teaches you not just
how to react, but how to respond. So I'm curious,
from a business perspective, how does that mentality help.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, it's I don't know. There's so many things that
fighting has tomming, and there's so many things that I
feel like fighting has been detrimental because it's hard to
break away from that yeah mindset right at the competitive mindset.
And I always think that athletes are some of the
best people to work with because they have that competitive

(16:56):
mindset as long as their ego doesn't get in the way.
And I had to break away from that ego. That
ego dissolution was one of the biggest things that I
think allowed me to elevate myself in art, allow me
to elevate myself in business and everything else I do
in my life. And when you are constantly in business,
especially when you're starting a new business, and you probably

(17:18):
know this even starting a podcast, you think everything is important,
like everything you know. You think every punch that's getting
thrown at you is something that you need to react towards.
And after a certain point, it's understanding what you need
to respond to to make the most impactful hit to
change the course of an entire match. And if martial

(17:41):
arts taught me anything it's being able to understand how
do you flow? How do you find these moments that
you could you're thoughtfully responding versus reacting to everything that's
coming at you. And that that applies to obviously everything
in life, right Like, if you're reacting to everything in life,
if you're going to be absolutely paralyzed.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
When you're building a business, you really have to think
big picture because if you know you're somebody that's focused
on the font. You're never going to get through your
day by thinking about like what actually matters, you know, absolutely. Anyways,
he said it way more eloquently than me, but kind
of just maybe think of it exactly.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Then.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, when you say ego dissolution, can you break down
what that means for us?

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yes, I it's interesting because again, when I've thought about fighting,
or when I thought about art, or whenever, whenever I
think about business, like all these different things I dove into,
there was it's like this main character energy. You go
into the ring and believing that you are the main

(18:46):
character and you're always gonna win every single match because
that is what destiny set out for you to do.
Is a good ideology to have in many ways because
it builds your confidence. But that's not really the way
the world works. And to be able to navigate the
world almost as a passive observer sometimes allows you to

(19:07):
become a lot more thoughtful in the way you approach
everything and a lot more responsible in the way that
you can approach all the things that life throws at you.
And I've seen so many people, especially in the fighting world,
and you know, some of them are some of my
good friends. But you know, there's that saying of like
peaking in high school, right, It's almost like peaking in

(19:29):
high school is because that confidence and that ego was
elevated to such a degree. Elevate, I guess is like
the word of this podcast, Like that I keep saying it.
It's you've almost like made yourself so stuck in your
own ways that there there's like a difficulty in being

(19:50):
able to realize that the world is a lot bigger
than this like ecosystem that you've built for yourself. And
do know who Miyamoto Musashi is now. He wrote the
Book of Five Ranks. He's considered the greatest swordsman to
ever live in Japan, and he's a hero for a
lot of martial artists. But there was a point that
he realized, like the way of the Sword was all

(20:12):
about taking other people's lives, Like you can only become
the best you basically murder a bunch of people. And
when he reached a point where he was like, Wow,
I don't necessarily want to be the best swordsman in
the world. I want to be the best like human.
I want to be a more complete human being, he

(20:32):
basically quit everything that he did within the fighting world.
He did, quit everything he did in the swordsmanship all
he reached his best, He reached like the highest peak
and broke away to become a philosopher, and he locked
himself up in this cave and just ended up writing
how to live a better life for you and other people.

(20:55):
And I want to believe that almost every martial artist
you know, when they go through the trials and tribulations,
goes through that or not even martial artists. As a
human being, when you go through trials and tribulations and
you get humbled, you will ultimately end up on the
other side as a better human being.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
And also like when you push yourself to those extremes.
You know, It's like martial arts are it's such an
interesting sport to train at, such an interesting range of
sports to train at, right, because there's different types of
we're learning all about this, guys, there's different types of
martial arts. There's more side, there's jiu jitsu, do jiu
jitsu count in Martin all right. But it is so

(21:34):
interesting because it is something that's been around for so long,
and it is so cool just hearing that that you know,
you can learn so much about just the principles of
life through practicing such an extreme sport.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
But how are you pushing yourself constantly too? You know,
if you're getting comfortable because you became so good at
one martial arts or one skill, then like, where's the growth?

Speaker 2 (21:53):
So okay, try time to try the next one exactly and.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
How do you apply that the learnings from the previous
sport that you became so good at to the next thing.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
I liked that you said that you like working with
other athletes and a question that I love asking people is, uh,
do you like hiring athletes and do you like hiring runners?

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yes? I mean I don't specifically go out for runners,
but I probably should, you know, especially like now that
I am a much more serious runner. The athlete mentality
to not give up, I think is one of the
most critical pieces in building any business, also approaching anything
in life. And when there is a challenge in front

(22:36):
of especially myself as an athlete, I am always looking
at that challenge and be like, oh, I could take
that on, And I'm sure you feel exactly the same way.
And it's like, you know, I was listening to your
husband Jeremy's Mom's podcast episode Shoutout.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
Dana, Doctor Dana, and she deserves her own podcast.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
She really does. Like she's incredible, Like I love that
episode that you did with her, but.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
You could be the next Smele Robbins come on now.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
There was something she said that really resonated with me.
Is like everyone eventually does hit a wall when you
are pushing yourself in a long run. But it's the
I think she used MVP as the acronym. You know
what is you know, mindfulness and then visualization, yeah, and
then people like performance or something like that, but mindfulness

(23:21):
being able to forget everything else, being able to forget
that you are competing, but it is just you in
this moment, having to just exist and find the rhythm
of the run. I think it was like so beautifully said,
and when you are challenged with things that you do
not know how to tackle because it's something new to you,

(23:43):
you just have to go back to your core who
you are and just challenge it head on and just
trust the rhythm of your feet to take you through it.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
And I mean ultra runners like yourself and marathon runners.
It's like the art of the act of actually running
is one thing, but it really does teach you so
much about discipline and pushing yourself through something even when
it's hard, even when you feel like you have to stop,
and just the skills that you can learn through being
a long distance runner or being an ultra marathon or

(24:11):
being a martial artist, whatever sport it is that you're
taking to that next level, or just really doing setting
a goal for yourself and accomplishing it. It can be
applied in so many ways to your professional life. What
do you feel like running ultra, running marathons, running in general?

(24:35):
How do you feel like it's helped you in your
professional life?

Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yeah? Man, I have so many answers because, like running,
it is such a big part of my life.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
Now, how big? How much are you running?

Speaker 1 (24:47):
I mean, so in peak training, I'm running usually ten
miles a day, and then when I was training for
my ultra, I was running like a marathon every weekend.
So but you know, it wasn't even like it's interesting
because when you get into a training mode for long
distance running, which eventually I want to do once I

(25:07):
have a little bit more time, just running takes up
so much time and my wife's pregnant so I can't
just be going for like four hours every weekend, but
I don't run with headphones on. It is my time
to be able to consolidate all my thoughts, which is
very important in a day and age where there's distractions
getting thrown at you from every single angle, and there

(25:32):
is a physical rhythm within the veil of pay. Like
you know, there's this veil of pain that obviously you
deal with when you're running long distances, but underneath it all,
there is this rhythm that you start discovering in how
you should process everything. And running has allowed me to

(25:57):
almost find that thought process and how I approach everything
else in my life. And it's funny because even with
my mural partners that I paint with, the guy ran
my Ultra marathon with is my mural painting partner that
I've been painting murals with for the last like twelve years,
and both of us have discovered that, and he's a

(26:18):
full time artist. Our best thoughts can only come in
these moments where you're by yourself and not just thinking.
It's it's it's just like active meditation, where you know
your body's moving, your mind is moving, and all those
things are getting pieced together, and all that exists is is.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
You, what's the craziest idea you've come up with, well,
running that you guys have actually implemented for narrow.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Oh my gosh, there's so many.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
He's like tsing Ryan, like just give up with Ryan.
You're running right now?

Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, yeah, all right, I mean there's definite. Those moments
are like I would come back on like a Monday
and like be talking to the team about all these
like random things, and they'd be like, Okay, like maybe
I should have consolidated my thoughts a little more so
this isn't business. But there was like a period when
you know, I I was debating, this is gonna get personal,

(27:19):
but it's like I don't know if I ever really
want to get married, like especially like early on in
my life. But there was a moment when I was
running my year seventy Ultra Marathon, which was like seventy
two hundred feet elevation gain thirty eight miles, and around
like mile thirty two, like near the end of my run,
I hit this crazy runners high that where I actually

(27:41):
like couldn't stop crying. I was like running up this
hill and I couldn't stop crying, and it was. There
was never a moment where my mind was so clear
that I wanted to marry my wife, and a few
months later I proposed to her, and I feel like

(28:02):
that was one of the most important moments of my life.
So during that run was the moment that I was
able to consolidate all my feelings and thoughts and be
able to put aside this again idea of ego on
having to work through the business and having to work
so hard and think back to what was truly important
in my life, which was, you know, having a person

(28:22):
by my side that challenges me every single day but
is also also my rock.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
She's like, keep running, babe, this is greatly exactly.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
I'm going to clip that. Yeah, I always have that, Michelle.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Michelle shout out, Michelle, that's so funny.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
I'm going to have that just in case we get
into a fight, and so I can always pull it up,
just in case.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
You're ever mad at me for running long distance. Just no,
it's great for our relationship. Yesterday, when we were talking
on the phone briefing for this podcast, you said, suffering
is not a reason to quit, it's a reason to
break through. Can you explain that to us, and was
there a specific moment in your life that taught you that.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
I want to say, there are so many moments, you know,
like what is life? I don't mean this in a
negative way, like what is life without suffering? Though, like
it is, that's the competitor in you, it is. And
it's like there's again going back to the physical and
mental there's like the physical suffering and definitely the mental suffering.
I mean, I've I'll talk about my co founder later

(29:24):
on in this podcast, because he's definitely gone through both
the physical and mental suffering, and you know, he inspires
me every single day with how resilient he is. But
when we were, you know, after college, when I was
trying to find my identity after fighting, I went to
film and then I thought I found my identity there
until my film project completely fell through. And when I

(29:46):
started getting into something that I could do a lot
more independently, which was my own art career. The way
I was able to support myself was doing hospital stays
and doing clinical trials, so I would make money staying
at a hospital in Anaheim, doing Anaheim clinical trials and
making money that way, so I didn't have to pay
for rent, I could take these experiential drugs and then

(30:07):
I could work on my own business. And I remember
at that point, especially graduating from you know, I would say,
like a decent college. All my friends were working in tech,
they were enjoying their life, they were making money, and
I felt like I was just living this incredibly scrappy life,
trying to live a life I wanted to live. And

(30:28):
when I compare myself, it's interesting because it was at
that moment I was comparing myself to others and where
that competitive nature of an athlete was more detrimental to
myself versus being able to focus on the bigger picture.
Why am I going through these processes to achieve something

(30:48):
that I know will pay off? Which is the same
with training, Like why are you training and suffering in
that moment? And it is because you know there's going
to be a payoff at the end, and you know
very fortunately say you know, like Neurogum is a ten
ten year overnight success in many ways, but that suffering
and believing in the process, believing in the team, believing

(31:09):
in in the people that are supporting you in building
what you believe is making sense and bringing a contribution
in some way to the world allowed me to keep
going and eventually break through and you know, get to
a point where we do have a certain level of
accolades and a revenue number that's I guess pretty decent.

(31:31):
But you know, the journey's not over. Like the suffering,
it's less suffering now, but I think there's so much
more to go, and maybe that's you know, maybe we're
in the ultra marathon phase of the business.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Now. Do you think some people quit too early?

Speaker 1 (31:45):
Absolutely? I think most people quit too early if there's
so much If you are actively learning and pushing yourself
every single day, there is no problem. I don't think
any human being in the world world can't solve. There's
a we were talking about Steve Jobs earlier. There's a

(32:06):
great book in my own Words by Steve Jobs, and
in the four that's written by his wife, there's a
section that says, you have to believe all great I'm
misquoting it so but the trucks of it is all
great things were built by people no more capable than

(32:27):
you or I, And she's referring to obviously Steve Jobs,
who invented the entire personal computer world. Personalized computer computer world.
But all of us are capable of doing anything. It's
just how far we want to push ourselves and how
much we believe ourselves be able to do it.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
And I feel like you have to learn how to
differentiate between pain that grows you versus breaks you.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yes, I love that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Did you ever have pain that felt like it was
going to break you when you're doing your hospital stays?
Did you have any like crazy reactions to anything?

Speaker 1 (33:03):
No, not in a physical way, but I will say
in a mental way. You know, even art is not
a very lucrative career, and you know, like I love
my parents, but there was like a certain level of
pressure that they were definitely putting on me to go

(33:24):
find a real job to a certain degree, you know,
like my parents believe that if I kept pushing myself
like I would achieve something. But I think it was again,
it was more about me. And I think this is
a fault that humans just have in general, Like how

(33:44):
do you how do you feel when you compare yourself
to other people versus how do you feel when you
compare yourself against yourself and what you feel like you
could achieve? And when I was finally able to break
away from okay, you know, going out and everyone's ordering
cocktails and having a great time, and they're going on

(34:06):
these trips because they all have great tech jobs, and
you know, I'm here, Like usually I would just drink
water because I won't be able to afford a drink like.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
One.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
I appreciate my friends for, you know, like understanding my
situation and like I wouldn't make it like a big
deal by any means in that moment, but one understanding
my situation, understanding that you know, this push that I
was doing was for something that I truly believed in.
And it's really funny because like when you are truly

(34:40):
passionate about something and you are truly trying to push
through and this is this goes for anyone. People will
rally behind you if you have a belief in something,
no matter what that belief if you if you have
a belief in something, no matter what situation or what
position you may be in, people will stand behind you

(35:02):
and push you and push for that belief. And that
was probably one of the most valuable things that I've
learned in setting a vision, being able to push the team,
making decisions and striving for something.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
And at that time, had you started the idea for
neuro or was your belief at the time like I'm
going to make it as an artist.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
It was both, so, you know, just a backtrack on
my career. There was my early art days and then
neuro started actually like right when I started painting murals,
so I was probably painting murals for about a year.
And then we launched a neurogum because I realized that
I wanted to start a business that would actually be
producing capital in some way or something that was actually

(35:44):
backed monetarily. And then I started another company called Okidoki,
which is an experiential design agency, where we started building
toy stores in New York. So I shifted away from
my personal art stuff into large scale projects, whether it
was public art piece is with my murals, or building
toy stores, like there's a toy store called camp so

(36:06):
we built in New York. And then The Wonder we
built the very first iteration of that. We built a
Britney Spears experiential project, like like her experiential museum. We
did the design, the entire experiential design for the Fear
of God six six collection were so cool. Yeah, we
actually ended up doing like a lot of projects, but

(36:27):
then COVID completely chilled bad business.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
But and you were doing hospital stays all while during
this or did you start making money from these?

Speaker 1 (36:36):
So thankfully I started making money from both because I
was gonna.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Say, experiential marketing. I feel like there's even more money
in it now.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Yeah. Absolutely, But like it was, you know, those days
when I was staying in the hospital and doing making
money that way, was able to build a foundation to
do all these other things.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, you gotta get scrappy.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean I told I've never had
a W two until neurogum.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
Oh wow.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yeah. I have always just pushed myself to like and again,
it was not that I couldn't get a job, you
know with the hospital stays. It was that allowed me
to have the freedom to be able to pursue all
the things that I wanted to pursue, and I was
willing to take that, I guess like moment of suffering
to be able to do that.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Let's talk about neurogum. What products were you trying out
at the time that led you, guys into developing the
first iteration of what neuro and neurogum was.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Yeah. So in college while I was fighting, the only
things that existed were energy drinks or you know, very
very badly substantiated supplements, especially during that era, and I
got really deep into nootropics because I was reading Tim
Ferriss's Five Hour work Week book, which is very popular
at that time, and he was talking about taking me

(38:01):
dafinil and it's like, oh, human beings don't need to sleep.
You could do like the Superman cycle or the Ubermint cycle.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
And truly the wild West of something.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
It was, Oh my god, it was crazy. And I
was doing that for a while. Like I was doing
the twenty minute naps throughout the day, so I was
doing twenty minutes every four hours, and then I would
do like a two like a big two hour sleep session,
so I would only be sleeping about like four hours
a day, like throughout the day. So I did that
for like eight I want to say, like eight months
or eight eight or nine months, like not a full year,
but I did for like a majority of a year.

(38:31):
And obviously don't do that. I am like so against
not getting good sleep now. But during that time, I
was constantly thinking about how do I maximize every single
waking hour in my life. And the things I began
mixing was the rasatam so parrasstam oxy rastam and rast
tam that I would buy from Russian websites using bitcoin.

(38:52):
Like this is like I wish I just kept that bitcoin,
but you know, yeah, spending a bigcoin. This is about
fifteen years ago. Caffeine helthyenian, which eventually ended up becoming
V zero of our product, Medafinil. I'll be taking medafinil
all the time, which is the anti narcolepsy drug. So
it allowed you to stay away can be more productive.
I was playing with different dosages of caffeine, playing with

(39:15):
different dosages of even like I didn't ge't too crazy
into like the adderall dosaging, but there was definitely a
little bit of playing with that. And eventually, just when
it came down to it, I realized the tried and
true methods of having good sleep, getting a getting a
good dose caffeine healthy was the most effective way of

(39:41):
maintaining a very healthy but sustainable work ethic. And when
I met my co founder Ryan in college, he was
he was actually a runner, so he was caffin in
his cross country and tracting the show. Yeah, we got
to get yan on the show. He was one of
the fastest kids in California. Like he was he was
running like a four to twenty mile or something like,
absolutely insane. But then his sophomore year, he got in

(40:02):
a snowboarding accident that left him paralyzed from the waist down.
And these seltments that I was taking were the ones
I was giving him so that he could get back
into school and finish on time, which is absolutely crazy
to do after being an a grievous injury like being
paralyzed from the waist down, and then after college on
a scuba diving trip, which is one of the most

(40:22):
accessible things that you could do, we were exhausted and
realizing that one, you know, neither of us want to
drink coffee, like for him, drinking coffee is a little
bit difficult because of you know, his injury and like
his stomach, and realizing there has to be a more efficient, approachable,

(40:42):
accessible way of taking things, and that was gumn Mints
putting something that we could share with each other, putting
something that we could share on these like adventures that
we were taking, and that led us into starting Neurogum I.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Think what's so cool too is and I said this
to you on the run, but it's two completely different
lived experiences, right, obviously two friends coming together with this
aligned mission. But his you know, need for the product
is different than what yours was, but similar at the
same time. So I'm curious, like, what did Ryan's experience

(41:17):
with the products and kind of what they were being
used for from his perspective? How did that kind of
teach you? I guess I'm not really phrasing that right,
but like, what did that teach you about? You? Guys
were starting to owner.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
I think for Ryan, who was to live? You know,
for me it was to optimize. For ryano was to live,
which is a totally different approach and how you have
to I mean look at life, like if neurogum, neuromins,
all the supplements I was mixing and taking was to
better my own life. Ryan took it in a way,

(41:50):
was I have this injury, How am I going to
get back to at least equilibrium to live my life again?
And that's exactly what he does now, you know, And
the fact that and when you meet Ryan, it's amazing
because like you've met Ryan before, like you do not
need to stop him like physically, like nothing stops him.

(42:14):
Like he will go down an escalator, he will, you know,
we lead down like a set of stairs. If he
needs to go up a set of stairs, like I'll
just piggyback ride him and then we'll just take the
wheelchair up like it there is in all the places
I've traveled with him, he is more mobile than any
other human being with the use of two legs. And

(42:37):
the the experimentation with neurogum, the fact that we started
a business together, the fact that I feel like, for
both of us, you know, believing in something created more
meaning in our lives than anything, like more than anything,
like I feel like business and uh neurogum has created
meaning in both of our lives that has allowed us

(43:00):
to really for me, you know, optimize my life. But
for Ryan keep pushing himself in ways that I don't
think he would have been he would have found a
way like knowing Ryan, but I think it's definitely helped
him find like a reason to be more be beyond

(43:23):
his injury.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
Absolutely, It's like everybody needs purpose, and especially when you're
going through such a traumatic life event that requires you
to be resilient in a way you never thought you could.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, And resiliency is the name of the game
when it comes to anything in life, you know, especially
for him getting past his injury, especially in business. This
idea of the react versus respond Like, sometimes you do
have to react because things are getting thrown at you
from a million different directions, but you keep going, you
stay resilient.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
What do you feel like his experience taught you?

Speaker 1 (43:57):
You know, I was saying that nothing stops Ryan. And
when you think about cognitive performance, which is exactly the
reason I got into neuroscience in the first place. Physical performance,
especially when you're young and you're in your youth, you
don't even think about the brain. You just kind of

(44:17):
go because your body could keep up with everything that
you're thinking about. When I saw Ryan and saw him
go through his injury, it was the definition of what
I was and it was the archetype of what I
was chasing, which was cognitive performance at its best. When
you put your mind to something and when you realize

(44:40):
that your physical capabilities are stunted, then anything is possible.
And that's in many ways with neurogum or business or
anything I do. It's subconsciously been built in the back
of my mind.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Right, And so I know that we talked about the
scessibility with gum, right you can kind of I saw
you guys on Shark Tank talking about it, like you
can put a pack of gum in your pocket, mince.
It's very accessible, it's shareable, it's social. But I'm curious,
is there like a scientific even backing to like it
does just chewing gum or having a mentioned in your mouth,

(45:17):
does it absorbed quicker?

Speaker 1 (45:18):
Oh? Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah absolutely, And like that's one
of those things that we found out later, but I
guess I shouldn't known, like when we were starting off,
but we weren't even thinking about it.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Yeah, that's happy. That's like a lucky surprise exactly, Like.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Oh that's nice. Like we're better than even drinking energy
drinking like coffee and all these things. Yeah, the buckle
and sublingual absorption component of it, like knowing from basically
just in menstruation methods in general, from a clinical you know,
a clinical studies perspective, absorbs a lot faster, like you
absorb things faster through the glands and the glands in

(45:52):
your mouth or the glands in your tongue versus having
to digest it like you process it in your stomach.
Then you're the bile has to break it down. And yeah,
that was just like a great surprise. And also there's
all these studies that talk about just the act of
chewing gum activates your brain because of that motion. So
when you combine all those things together, the effective ingredients,

(46:15):
the act of chewing activating your brain, and then the
bukele and sublinguable George component, I honestly, it's like a
trifecta of creating a product that is efficiently working more
so than traditional traditional formats.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
Okay, let's pull up the product because we have it
on the side here, So show us this product. What
is this one that we just had?

Speaker 1 (46:36):
So this is the neuro Mints. It is a natural
caffeine forty milligrams and natural caffeine, altenene and B vitamins
in a mint format that do want?

Speaker 2 (46:46):
I do want another one? Like I'm The thing about
me is when I have a pack of ments, I e. All,
how many of these can you have a day?

Speaker 1 (46:53):
So the great thing about this is one piece is
half a cup of coffee, And there's no reason that
you know your adenasy receptors, like you're when you're taking
something like a Celsius that has three hundred milligrams of caffeine,
or even like Eventu, I think the largest right at
Starbucks that's like three hundred and sixty milligrams of caffeine.

(47:14):
And every single year Starbucks has increased the amount of
caffeine in their products because they know there is the
dopaminergic reaction to how people want more energy and more caffeine.
That is not how the human body should be operating.
You can microdose effectively, and you can control the dosage
of the caffeine that you take so that you could

(47:35):
efficiently not have the crash and keep going with your life,
like you do not need to burn yourself out, And
that is the philosophy that we live by. That is
the philosophy. Like you as a runner, also with the
running marathons, you're not supposed to burn yourself out and
like start sprinting at the starting line. You're supposed to
consistently be going through life, you know, and thoughtfully going
through life. And that's that's the reason we put in

(47:59):
as much as we did. And there's so many other
companies that you know that have tried to do something
similar to what we've done, but they always approach in
the sense of an energy drinks. It's like trying to
overload people, so they get an instant hit instead of Hey,
if we are supposed to thoughtfully live our lives and

(48:22):
be resilient and all these things we're talking about, like
to be able to continue in a sustainable way because
life is a marathon, then how can you be more
thoughtful with your dosing and be more thoughtful with the
things you put into your body? And so that was
a long way of saying, yes, you could take a
whole ten of this and it's still less caffeine then, but.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
They're awesome and they taste so good, and they are
now going to become a part of my every day
ritual and they have become a part of so many
people's everyday rituals. I saw this stat that one in
seven people knows about.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
Neuro Yeah, probably more like one in six now, but.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
It's one in six people. I mean that is wild.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
Yeah, it's pretty crazy. I mean we sell more than
five hour energy in revenue and velocity at CVS now,
so we are taking over what I think people are
more conscious of these of what they're taking now, you know,
with these energy drinks and like, gone are the days
where I mean thankfully gone are the days where you're

(49:22):
just like they used to release energy drink called cocaine
energy drink. You know that's crazy, It's like crazy.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
But I do it five hour energy or I remember every
CVS you would go into it would be like whatever
they called the little gret Like when you're kind of
checking out, it's right there, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
At the cash register at the gene lane. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
What I think, too is so cool is I feel
like we're almost living in this efficiency world now, where
whatever it is, people just want the most efficient like option.
It's like, we want effishient options for our groceries delivered
right to our door. We want an efficient workout class
if it's twenty five minutes, ten minutes, whatever we have
time for. We want to make sure we're getting a
great sweat in. I also feel like when it comes
to the products that we're using, like we want them

(49:58):
to be efficient and gum pre has done literally nothing
for us other than like hurting our teeth. Yeah, so
I feel like, what's cool about this product? Is you
at least are getting benefits out of it? Oh?

Speaker 1 (50:09):
Absolutely, yeah, And like why would you even chew regular
gum at this point?

Speaker 2 (50:14):
That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
We're looking at consumption data from our retailers, and what's
funny is people are thinking. It's great that people are
thinking that way, where there's definitely an overlap between people
that are drinking coffee or energy drinks and then also
chewing gum, you know, And we are now I think
within the top ten of even traditional gumments in general,

(50:36):
like the extra the orbits, the altoids. We are selling
more in terms of dollars per distribution point and velocity
than like the bottom six of that top ten. So
we're onto something.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
You're taking over multiple industries. It's so impressive. I liked
that you said it was a ten year business that
has become an overnight success. What in the past ten
years was the biggest turning point for you guys?

Speaker 1 (51:07):
You know, in twenty twenty we went on Shark Tank
and so that was, well, let's go back because ten
years ago when we first launched, we were in our
neotropics and we're targeting a very small group of consumers
that were into this thing called nootropis, which I bet
it's less than one in seven people in America that
I even know what that term is. What is that

(51:28):
it is basically substances that allowed you to have cognitive
benefits with minimal or no side effects. So this idea
of like adderall is not necessarily a nootropic because it
is basically math. There's a lot of side effects to it.
But the combination of natural caffeine and elthanine is considered
a base nootropic stack because the eldanine curbs a lot

(51:50):
of the side effects of caffeine, so instead of for
getting like that high peak, you know, it promotes more
of the relaxation the alpha waves to be able to
equal equalize the side effects of caffeine. So that was
the initial group of people that we were able to

(52:10):
tap into. And right when we launched, Doctor Oz and
his team actually called us, so we went on like
Doctor Oz's show, whatever you think about him as a
actual doctor or not. That put us on the national
stage in front of a specific consumer group. But it
wasn't until Shark Tank that in twenty twenty that we
were able to hit a much larger audience. And then

(52:31):
Joe Rogan talked about us almost at that exact same time,
and now all of a sudden, there was like this
national exposure happening with this product where we were creating
a new category. So to be able to tell people like, oh,
we're a gum, but we're also a supplement you know
we have We're like an energy product, but we're also
a gum. Categorically, to be to have to educate people

(52:56):
was one of our hardest things, and those big PR bombs,
whether it's with Joe Rogan or whether it's with Shark Tank,
allowed us to what they say, cross the chasm into
a larger national audience. And then in twenty twenty three,
we started experimenting with TikTok where Jonathan ha, our VP
of Growth, and I were committed to posting something every

(53:18):
single day to figure out what virality is on TikTok
and what causes virality on TikTok, And when we've got
our first video, which was a video of me reacting
to Joe Rogan talking about our product go viral, we
set in motion this like hook to conversion process that
we continue to replicate and then continue to turn into

(53:39):
an entire creator community slash Ecosystem, which is now twenty
five thousand people after three years, to really continue elevating
our business and creating almost like an impressions vehicle, Like
how do you continue to You know, if people you
could have, you could be doing the most extraordinary thing.

(54:03):
But if people don't know about it, then what's the point?

Speaker 2 (54:05):
Right?

Speaker 1 (54:06):
So how do you create that engine?

Speaker 2 (54:17):
How did Joe Rogan talking about your product compared to
you guys being on Shark Tank.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Oh my gosh, Joe Rogan is basically male oprah. So
it was like Shark Tank was one level, but Joe
Rogan just it was a level of credibility that elevated
us to a whole another level. Yeah, and then we
went back on Shark Tank two weeks ago. You know,
so we're the first company in Shark Tank history that
didn't get a deal the first time that went back

(54:42):
on Shark Tank and got a deal the second time.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Well, you said you went back two weeks ago, did
it air?

Speaker 1 (54:47):
It's just air two weeks I was from like, we
yes last.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
Year, but right, okay, got it because I saw your
Actually we might have damoned on tomorrow for the for
the walking portion of the show.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Yes, that's great, but.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
That's it. So we had Jamie simonov On, who's the
founder of Ring oh Okay. He also went on Shark
Tank and came out the first time with no deal,
and then he eventually went back on and was a shark.
And it was fun talking to him about his experience
on the show because while he walked away without a deal,
he still got so much national recognition and then saw

(55:20):
such like a spike in sales. So it was great
exposure for the brand. But it was interesting because both
him and you were kind of and at both Ring
and Neuro were kind of misses in the world of
the Sharks, like they should have taken the deal.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
But like, how does that feel. I mean, it feels
great for me, but you.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Guys looked a good impression, like they liked you on
the show.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Well, they liked us exactly, and like you know, at
the end of the day, it was when we think
about why we didn't get a deal or take any
of those deals. One Kevin O'Leary's deal was absolutely garbage,
and Robert Herzevic was de valuing our business and for
Ryan and I it was always going into the show,
we are going to stand our ground. We are going

(56:06):
to truly believe what we feel is our valuation. And
we either get that or were we're not going to
take a deal, and so we approach it with honesty
at the end of the day, you know, and we
approach it with like a sense of with no dis
like we were not disingenuous by any means, and I

(56:27):
think the sharks like that. And then eventually, through a
process of a lawsuit and reaching back out to daniel
Lebtski in this whole situation, we became incredibly close with
him and we were able to secure a deal with
with daniel Lebtski, who's the comounder of a kind bar,
who's the best shark, we could have gone all right.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
So six years later, you guys go back on the
show twenty twenty to twenty twenty six. How did the
deal terms change?

Speaker 1 (56:51):
Oh my gosh. So I think when we went in,
our valuation was around something like ten to fifteen million,
Like Robert Herdevick was trying to work is Town till
like seven point five. We wanted to meet at ten,
but we went in at a fifteen million dollar valuation.
Multiply that by over ten x the second time around,

(57:13):
like way more than ten x. Whatever the math is.
So yeah, we got a good deal.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
Were they excited to see you back?

Speaker 1 (57:19):
Oh my god, they were so excited, and it was
like it was one of those things where it was
cool because we got to bring in our partners too.
So Daniel Beski met us at a paddle club in
Austin because Andrew Schultz we just signed is a huge
paddle player.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
I love Andrew on the show. He's a paddle and
paddel whatever you call it. I used to see him
at the Dumbo Padel the Padel and Dumbo.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
Oh yeah, he's an investor in that one. Oh he is.
I didn't even know that.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
I saw him in there once and I had to
go up and say hi. I was like, I love you.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
Oh my gosh, you just have him on the show.
He's awesome. So it was him and Mitchell Hooper, who's
the World's strongest man.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
He's one of the Andrew Schultz on this show. And
we will pop an every five minutes.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
Yes, let's go, let's see him. Yeah, I'll ping him afterwards.
And then we had you key to know to f
one race car driver, and then Daniel came in to
just play like padel paddle with us.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
And that's when I'm closed better at who's better at
padel Andrew? Are you?

Speaker 1 (58:17):
Oh? Well, Andrew's a professional padel player according to him,
so I guess I have to give him the benefit
of the doubt and better.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
Okay, you referenced this before, but in twenty twenty four,
Nero became one of the fastest growing brands on TikTok shop.
What do you think, you guys, as a company recognized
worked on TikTok that maybe other brands.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Didn't incentivizing creators effectively. And it's funny because I see
all these other companies trying to reach out to creators
and be like, hey, I'll give you free product if
you talk about it. What is the incentive there for
like any person to talk about anything? You know, what
is an incentive for any person to work towards anything
and being able to take is probably comes from the

(58:58):
athlete mentality, you know, like how do you push yourself
and how do you encourage others to push themselves. We
built that in to the way we interacted with our creators,
whether it was through monetary value, whether it was through
the community that we were building amongst creators. We have
like creator houses where our creators get together and they

(59:19):
could talk, whether it's the discord channel that we built
where everyone could share their thoughts and ideas, and like
we pop in and we provide them with content. All
these different incentivization structures kept the creators excited and kept
them pushing themselves to be creating new content every single day.
And the fact that they would talk to each other
on what works and what doesn't also allowed them to

(59:41):
have this almost like efficient community, self contained, efficient community
within themselves to be able to develop what ideas work
and what didn't.

Speaker 2 (59:54):
Yeah, like literally what hooks work? Right? Yeah, it's so
funny because TikTok Shop, I feel like, I mean, I'm it,
I'm on a different side of TikTok because it's like
I'm just creating content, putting out there and hoping that
the videos do well. Obviously, we have a format that
we follow, but everybody knows that they scroll on their
for you page and every other video is like a
TikTok shop video. So I feel like people are fascinated
by it. How much can an affiliate make if they

(01:00:17):
have a video go off.

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
I mean, we've paid out over two hundred and fifty
thousand dollars a month to one of our top affiliates,
just one person, this one person, but he also made
us like millions of dollars, you know, in that month.
So the it was like a payout for that that video.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
And then I liked that you used this as an
example before. But once Joe Rogan talked about the product,
then you guys were almost stitching what he said and
creating content around it. So is that kind of a
hook that did well? And then maybe other creators now
use that hook too.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Yeah, I mean yes, that was definitely worked. But at
the core of it, it was what is the credibility
that you could build in a product that has is
a category builder? You know, like no one knows is
about again, like what gum with supplementation is. So how

(01:01:06):
do you build credibility, whether it's through a celebrity like
a Joe Rogan, whether it's through research papers, whether it's
through like a doctor talking about it, and how do
you layer that into all the attributes of the product
that eventually lead to a conversion.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Yeah, I feel like there's just so much that goes
into the it goes into distribution and marketing on these platforms.
It's so cool, and it's just so cool knowing that
you guys leaned into TikTok Shop, because I feel like
sometimes brands are slow to jump on the new things
that you hear about trending, but you guys jumped on
it pretty quickly.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
I mean, I think one of the things that would
be great for you guys is doing lives. So you
like recording these podcasts, but doing it in a live format.
People hop in and if people even tap into your live,
you are going to be refeeding them your like basically
your page on their for you page, and it continues

(01:01:57):
to build on itself and a lot of people. When
live became very uh not profitable, there was like a
period of like six months where it wasn't very profitable.
We kept doing them because we knew that there was
like a retargeting targeting funnel.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
I saw you guys were live last night when I
went to your two too.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Yeah, we're live all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
Yeah, No, it makes so much sense. So I'm curious.
You know, I back in the day, I've lived many
lives I feel like on social media. But I had
tried to start a brand, an active wear brand, and
then I started the Runing Interview Show, and I just
kind of had to weigh the pros and cons and
I realized that the Running Interview Show was going to
be more profitable through just working with brands. But I'm
curious for people that want to start a brand, what

(01:02:36):
would be your biggest distribution tip, Like, how do they
get their brand out there? What's the what do you
think are the keys to success that they have to
be thinking about?

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
So I think with I think personal brand it's very
very powerful nowadays because so many people are disillusioned by
these big companies that are trying to feed them something.
You know, that are trying to follow the trends, but
the slow, almost boring things like building your brand, building
the process, having people learn who you are and going

(01:03:07):
through that almost like interview process with your consumer allows
you to have an identity that differentiates yourself from anything else.
So are you developing yourself personally and how are you
applying it to a brand that talks to a consumer
that is just like you and a lot of people

(01:03:28):
like comfort clothes. I think they're called on TikTok. They're
Duren like ten million dollars a month or something, right,
and that started because people were able to associate themselves
effectively with the founders. There's Jim Shark is like another
example where like he tapped into this very specific type
of gim creator ecosystem and was able to create an

(01:03:50):
identity that was really built from who he was as
an individual. So in short, it's to say, how are
you creating an identity that fits into an ecosystem that
you could play into and then continue re iterating it
against the flywheel that you do create, so that exposure

(01:04:10):
against the specific audience compounds on itself. And that's how
I would create a brand.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Right. It's like, don't try to be so many things.
Try to be something to a specific group of people
and expand from there.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
Yeah, and then once you master that, you could become
the multi hyphen it, right, you could start developing yourself
into different fields.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
I feel like, we got to get your mural art
somehow into the branding for a nerve.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
I got, well, we do, so we have these like
custom edition tins and so last year we were the
largest donor to Patty aware at the Ocean Conservation Group
for the scuba diving organization Patty, and we painted like
a twenty two hundred square foot wall in San Diego.
So that design ended up going on one of our
tins that ended up raising money, and you know, we

(01:04:52):
end up raising like high six figures or something. Okay,
So there's some interplay there. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
I like that. I feel like you gotta leave it
a a little bit because your mural art, like it's incredible, guys,
oh thank you. He'll go to his Instagram and it's
just it's so impressive, right, I mean it's seriously so,
so how like how do you balance it? Do you
do you get gigs still for mural art or do
you kind of do them for fun? Now?

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
So I mean I have to, like I work with
like these two managers that typically tend to get me gigs,
and I would only do them if it really makes sense.
Like murals take so much out of me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
They take so much time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
They take so much time, Like it's hard for me,
you know, like usually I'm on the wall, like taking
phone calls and talking to the dem And as Neurro grows,
it just becomes more and more difficult, but you know,
I'm going out to Gone in like a few months
again to paint a mural out in one of the
villages that we're building with mister Beast. So you know,

(01:05:45):
if it applies to something that I feel passionate about,
or if it applies to something that's about giving back,
then that's probably where I'm going to start exploring doing
more and more murals again. But right now, it's, uh,
I would only pay murals if one if it's in
a public space that I would love to activate, or

(01:06:08):
too if it's you know, monetarily it makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
Okay. I love knowing that you guys are doing stuff
with mister Beast. Is mister Beast an investor in euro.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
He's not an investor, but Beast philanthropy is like going
to be a shareholder. So we are. You know, we
look at philanthropy as a big part of our business.
So whether it's giving back to again Patty Aware being
the biggest uh, you know donor for ocean conservation through
that timar WB, which is the largest mental the mental

(01:06:37):
health charity for veterans in the United States. It's when
we were out in Ghana and we saw what beast
philanthropy does. Like, because I was, you know, thinking of
Jimmy what like how he presents himself on YouTube. I
didn't truly believe that he was approaching charity in as
comprehensive of a way as we we're expecting it to be.

(01:07:01):
But like his mission with feastables to and like child
labor out there, and like the cocoa farms, him building
these educational centers and villages out in Ghana so that
people like actually create a system to get out of poverty,
to get out of this child labor loop that's happening.

(01:07:23):
And then Craig Kielberger, who he works with, who's the
CEO of his Psilanthry group, and what he's able to do,
Like his background really made us believe in the mission
and whatever it is that we could contribute back to
what they're doing and what we truly believe in. It
just made sense.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
Yeah, not a bad person to get involved with. Yeah,
cool stuff, Like I mean, it's a cool guy, Yeah,
really cool guy. We love our North Carolina people come
on that exactly. Obviously, Jeremy loves the North Carolina creators. Yeah,
they're great. Also, it's been one of our goals since
we started the show, but just to get to Greenville
and see the crazy production that they Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Yeah, you guy should come out, like I think I'm
gonna go out in a few months. I'll let you
guys know, Hey, let us know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
Maybe we'll bring our baby. That's right, more baby, No,
that'd be funny. But Greenville's a crazy place because Jeremy
always describes it as like what the hell is going
on in Greenville? It's like basically now like Jimmy's world
because it's like the middle of nowhere in North Carolina, right,
yare of nowhere? Kind of That's what he would describe
it as. What have you learned from working with somebody

(01:08:27):
like mister beast Jimmy? What have you learned about business?

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
I mean, it's that man does not stop. But he
also surrounds some self with people that work at the
same speed that he does. And obviously, you know, like
at least to like toxic workplace allegations. But I think
I don't know if this is an HR friendly answer,
but when you are operating at that high level and

(01:08:52):
that highest speed, you can't keep up like that culture
is not for you. And I think It's more that
than anything else, because every single person there, we were
waking up at five thirty am, and the film crew
was already up for like two hours at that point
to go three hours into this village film all day.
They get back at like nine pm, and then they
start their day all over again. And Jimmy would be

(01:09:14):
so like Jimmy would be the person driving that he
would stay out there in an excavator and sleep overnight
so that he could wake up first thing in the
morning and start filming. Like that is how devoted he is.
And he does that three hundred and sixty five days
out of the year.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
It's such a good example for your team.

Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
It's such a good example. And if you work at
that speed, people are going to work at that speed.
And same with neuro Like for Ryan and I, you know,
we talked about like the mental resilience and everything, like
how much you're pushing yourself. You can obviously set an
example that translates to everyone else and the way they
should operate in the team. But with that, you need
to be as decisive like Jimmy is very decisive and

(01:09:52):
everything he does. And that's probably one thing I learned
where we were talking on the run. It's like, when
you make a decision, the universe can spire to make
that decision come true. And as a leader, I think
that's the most important attribute that you have to have,
that is servedness making a decision, but gathering the right
evidence to make a decision that makes sense so that
everyone could could back you in that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
What's an example that you witnessed in Ghana of Jimmy
making a quick decision.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
I mean, so one of the days, so Ghana has
these crazy rainstorms out of nowhere, and even the situation
of Jimmy sleeping in the excavator is one of those
moments where he's like, we're all staying out here tonight
because it rained and we lost three hours of filming.
How are we going to start filming early tomorrow? You know,

(01:10:40):
his entire team's like all right, Like fine, we're staying
out here so we don't have to drive back to
the hotel and back. None of us are going to
shower and we're gonna get straight straight back into it.
And mind you, not showering in Ghana when it is
like seventy percent humidity and ninety degrees every single day
is absolutely nuts. But his entire team backs him in
that decision. And when were I went back to the hotel,

(01:11:01):
you know, but when we came back the next day,
like they were all back at it, and like you know,
ten year old comes in and everyone's like chewing urogum
out there, But like they were all back at it
filming because they knew that they have a short time
span to be able to do anything until they had
to jump onto their next project. And it's like, I

(01:11:22):
don't know, like I used to work at that speed
when we were working in like the Exponential Marketing Agency,
and like we were building that and building toy stores
and like you had to move at a certain pace
to the deadlines. But the fact that he's doing that
and everything, you know, I would say the only con
of working in that way is everything bottlenecks into Jimmy,
because if Jimmy slows down, the entire team slows down.

(01:11:45):
Or if Jimmy can't work one day because he's sick
or something, the entire team has that day off also.
And so with Jeff, their new CEO, I think a
lot of what they're doing and it's a big lesson
for myself as well. How do you build the systems
to build the processes so things can keep running beyond
who you are, beyond the individual. And you know, going

(01:12:06):
back to this idea of like ego dissolution, like how
do you expand? The only way that you could create
something bigger is if it extends beyond the individual, beyond
who you are as yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
Well, Kent, we covered so much today. As we wrap up,
I want you to give us one final piece of advice,
a piece of advice that you would give to your
younger self.

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):
So I always say that pressure makes diamonds. And when
you are creating this operating system called the human being
and you're exploring all these different things in life, I
truly believe that whatever you dive into is almost a
stress test system into what makes you a comprehensive individual.
So when I dive into murals and having you think

(01:12:49):
big picture, you know, and trusting the process there, or
when I think about martial arts and running and my
fitness side, and this idea of uh, we talked about pain.
You know, pain is really like thinking through final output,
like what the ultimate outcome would be. All those things
and obviously business with systems and system building all those

(01:13:13):
things are again stress testing what you are capable of
to become not just an individual on a single track path,
but someone that can look at the world comprehensively and
explore it in all this beautiful ways.

Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
Well, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Speaker 1 (01:13:36):
Yeah, I thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Thank you guys so much for making it this far
into our conversation. I hope you guys got as much
out of it as I know our team did. If
you found this episode helpful, please make sure if you
haven't already, to follow the show, share it with a friend,
and stay tuned for our weekly uploads. I'll see you
guys next week.