What the Science Actually Says About Women's Health | Dr. Andy Galpin - Post Run High

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Anybody out there listening that wants to look better, feel better,
perform better, however they are. You don't need to spend
a dollar on technology. You don't have to do a
single supplement ever to perform phenomenally well. That is one
hundred percent fact. We have the richest athletes in the world.
I coach the richest executive, We have unlimited funds, and
we still do the very basics the overwhelming majority of
the time, and it's all about can you.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Be Doctor Andy Gelpin has spent twenty years studying human performance.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
And working with gold medalists and pro athletes. In this episode,
he breaks down what really works for sleep, recovery, fat loss,
and performance. One of the biggest epidemics we're seeing right
now that nobody's paying attention to is and this almost
exclusively targets meals. If you want to be amazing at ninety,
that starts with being amazing at twenty eight.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Bad sleep is directly correlated to what.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
People that work three to eleven PM kind of thing
five to ten x increased risk of erectial dysfunction. The
biggest thing you can do for your sleep if your
overweight is to healthy people move full stop.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Hi, guys, it's your host Kate Max here. Thank you
so much for tuning into today's conversation with doctor Andy Galpin.
Your support helps us continue bringing you inspiring conversations, So
please hit that follow button wherever you're listening and we
will be right back with our conversation after this shortbreak.

(01:29):
Today we are joined by doctor Andy Galpin. Andy is
an expert in all things human performance and exercise. He's
worked with some of the top athletes in the world,
from Olympians to the MLB. Andy, you are described as
an exercise physiologist. Can you explain to us what that means?

Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, I think it's the easiest way to understand it
is it's just the science of the human body specific
to exercise. So if you can trast this to like
a medical doctor, so they have a doctorate or a
terminal degree in edicine, and so this is disease, infection, detection,
treatment management. My take on the physiology side is the

(02:07):
other in the spectrum, which is what happens when we exercise,
what happens when we try to perform at our absolute best,
and so of course there's a ven diagram. Health is
health a human body that is healthy, can live free
of disease or as close as we can to it.
They can also then perform at their best. But then
there are also certainly some fringe cases in where the

(02:29):
same exact information and the same perspective is different depending
on if you're looking at it from that disease prevention
treatment management side of the equation or my side, which
is the human performance angle.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
And how did you get into this?

Speaker 1 (02:44):
It was an easy way to not have a real job.
You know. I grew up in the country and my
parents were super supportive, and all they really ever said
was we just want you to have an easier life
than we had, And so they pushed my siblings and
I to go to college. Not that there's anything particularly
magic about college, but for us, like no one where
I'm from went to college. I didn't know any scientists,

(03:06):
I didn't know any lawyers. I never met anybody like
that ever in my life, really, And so they just
wanted us to have an easier life than them. And
so I was a pretty good athlete and high school
and I was I had the ability to play college football,
but I know it wasn't going to go anything past
that or even close, and so as a college football athlete,
I had a kind of two things in my heads,
one being I'm not good enough to just show up

(03:30):
and be better than everybody, and so I need to
figure out how to train, how to recover, how to
do all these things to be the best I can be,
because if I don't, I'm not going to play. But
I was good enough to where there was no light
at the end of the tunnel, right, So if I
wasn't so far behind the pack where it's like, hey,
no matter what you do, you're never going to play.
So I had the incentives there to just personally say,

(03:51):
like you want to be one of the few kids
ever from your school to play college football, Like you
better do everything right. And then going back to my parents,
it was how do you then find this into profession
in a career? And you know, twenty five years ago,
this field wasn't a thing. You couldn't get terminal degrees
and PhDs and this stuff really, and so I just

(04:13):
looked at the field and was like, Okay, I don't
want to be a sport coach. I don't want to
be a football coach or a baseball coach. I love
those things. And then strength and conditioning is a profession
was around and it was emerging, but it really wasn't there.
So I dabbled in that and I realized, actually, I
can't be a full time trainer. I can't be a
full time coach either, and so I just kind of figured, well,

(04:38):
I know enough about these things, but I don't know
enough about the science of it. Why does this stuff happened.
I can learn protocols and things like that, but the
science side intrigued me. And part of it was because
again I didn't know how to be that did that.
Science was such a glamorous thing where I'm from, because
we're all just a bunch of loggers and farmers and
like a scientist like, okay, that's great. But it was

(04:59):
super intimidate because everyone that I was in class with
had been through ap biology or anatomy in high school.
And I'm like, I was not a tractor in high school. Like,
I have no idea what this stuff is. So it
was very scary. But I was like, you know, let's roll,
let's roll the dice and see what can happen. And
so that story kind of ends with me looking at
the field and saying I'm not smart enough to be

(05:22):
a medical doctor. I would not have got into med school.
I would not have got through med school. And at
the same time, like I couldn't just be a full
time coach, But what if I could take a little
bit from both sides of the equation and create a
little bit of a balance here where I don't have
as much scientific knowledge as the best scientists and physiologists
in the world, I don't have as much on the
field as the practitioners, but I have a crossover. I

(05:43):
was shooting both. That puts me in a little bit
of unique spot. So I was able to craft a
career where I blended that and then coming out of
college finishing my PhD, was I was really the only
one around that kind of had that balance, and that
enabled me to really build my career, you know, twenty
plus years later into it is now.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, and it seems like your career now like everything
that you do now and help other people with at scale,
these are all things that you helped yourself with, maybe
as an athlete in.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
College, right one hundred percent?

Speaker 2 (06:13):
Okay, So what are some of the fundamental things that
you learned as a young kid that helped you become
a better athlete.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
One of the biggest lessons as a college athlete myself
was the realization that methods are many, but concepts are few,
and when you're eager in this fields, because you've got
to remember, the internet's not really around when this is
going on, and certainly in fact, I remember the first
time I ever went on YouTube. These things did not
exist and you couldn't just readily pull up podcasts and information.

(06:44):
So if you want to learn more about strength conditioning,
for example, you had to go to a clinic and
you had to wait six months and you had to
sign up, and like, there's just so little access to
this type of stuff, and so you would go to
these things. I'd be so excited. This new journal would
come out and I would magazine, you'd buy it, and
you do this thing and it's like a very specific methodology,
and then you're like, great, that's it, that's how all
the pros train. And then the next one comes out

(07:06):
and it's totally different. And then next comes out it
went and you're just like, Okay, now I'm just like
totally confusing what to do, and you start to realize
you're like, oh, I can chase this rabbit hole individual examples,
and those are fine and great and helpful, but what
is the concept, what's the central truth that's running in
all these programs if they're all working, because they look

(07:29):
wildly different on paper, and when you start to identify
those things, then I was like, Aha, here's the moment.
This is what they're all trying to accomplish, and they're
going about it in different methods millions and millions and
millions and methods that are there, but really they're only
hitting the same four, five or six concepts that changed
my life. And then another thing that changed my life

(07:51):
even back then was it's kind of cliche to say now,
but what we call or what is referred to as
first principles, right, it's like very business entrepreneurs or sort
of thing to say, But is it's a very similar
idea where it's like, let's just still this all the
way down to the bottom and say, if I challenged
all assumptions, what is really true? Do I really have
to do it this way? What if I did it

(08:12):
that way? Like, what do we really understanding? What is
just the lore that has been carried over from tradition
and what is a fundamental biological truth, and then how
do I weave that into a system that allows me
to have success in any domain? And maybe a more
tangible way to say that is I've been fortunate to
work with loads of people, tons of athletes, but far

(08:35):
more non athletes than pro athletes. We've worked with ninety
five year olds to eighteen year olds, plenty of men, women,
probably fifteen or sixteen different professional sports at this point,
fat loss, brain performance, sprinting, endurance, and I get this
all the time. It was like, how the hell do
you know all the physiology of all those sports? And

(08:58):
I don't have to. I just have to actually know physiology,
and then that can be deployed in any angle that
a human wants it to be in. Because I'm not
your skill coach, right, I'm not going to be the
one saying, hey, this is the split we want you
to run this first mile at, this is the technique
we want you to be I don't do that part
of the equation. What I would do is look at

(09:20):
the physiology and say, what's the constraint here? How can
we maximize your physiology? And you want to use that
to run better five k? Great, you want to use
that to just be able to run five days a
week and not be hurt. I actually don't really care.
That's your sport coach who's going to determine that, like
competitive decision making in tactics and technical stuff. But I

(09:41):
can just look and say, physiologically, your body is not
responding to this. I'm not judging anything. I don't know why,
I don't care, but I'm just objectively looking at it
and saying, I realize that this approach worked for the
other six hundred friendziars, but it's not working for your
body and your physiology. That was the big unlock for me.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, And I feel like sometimes people do very much
so overcomplicate it, where they feel like their unique situation
is really just unique to them and you know, not
happening to anybody else. And I think it is so
cool talking to somebody like you that works with so
many people from all different age ranges that can say, yeah,
it really comes down to these key things. You know.

(10:21):
And I'm sure you know over the past x amount
of years since you were a college athlete, you've of
course learned so much. You've seen so many different studies
come out, You've worked with so many people but if
you could think back to the key things that you
implemented as a young athlete while you were in college,
what still stands true today.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
That's a great question, and it is the exact. I'll
give you a parallel to football only because I played
that and you're asking about me. But I'm telling you
right now, we have helped people get to the top,
literally the top of Mount Everest. We've helped people. A
friend of mine, actually, Jordie, helped ned run one thousand
miles on a track. All these things are the same,

(11:01):
right So for me personally, I still work with lots
of NFL players to this day. What I did back
then that worked is the same thing that I have
my all pros doing right now. It's just the fact
that they do it twice as fast and with more
weight because they're better athletically than I am. So those
tangible things are it's basic stuff, Like if you were

(11:22):
to look at any one of our programs, ninety percent
of what you see, you'd be like, Oh, that's boring.
That's going to get zero likes on social media because
it is all the stuff you're saying. And I've argued
this my entire career. That if you literally did the
Google ten Basic Things of Human health, it would still

(11:42):
be the ninety five percent most impactful stuff any human
could ever do. You don't need to spend a dollar
on technology, you don't have to get a single red light,
you don't have to do a single supplement ever, and
you can win a world championship. I promise you that
because I've done it. I can't tell you how many
times that is one hundred percent fact. Anybody out there
listening that wants to look better, feel better, perform better,

(12:03):
however they are, you don't need to pay a single
dollar into any of those things to perform phenomenally well.
At the same time, there is some legitimate rationale to
do some of those things if you want. But I
don't want in people to ever walk away thinking the
only way that I can be a better human is
spending a ton of money. The tried and true things

(12:24):
are a damn good reason why they are tried and true.
And I'm telling you again, we have the richest athletes
in the world, I coach, the richest executives, and all
those people, we have unlimited funds for many of the
people I work with, literally unlimited and we still do
the very basics the overwhelming majority of the time, and
it's all about can you be consistent in those systems? Right,
So we have to identify and I know I'm being

(12:47):
like very high level and not giving you like tangible examples.
So maybe I'll sort of stop when we can give
some direct examples. But it really is the honest truth
that I'm saying it this way, because this is not theory.
This is what actually happens behind the curtain. For a
lot of these people tell me the con constraints. For example,
we have elite level athletes, the highest and the highest

(13:07):
sports that are alcoholics great, and they tell me the
constraint is, I'm I'm not giving up booze, all right.
I have other clients who give me all kinds of constraints.
I'm not gonna lift weights, Okay, I'm not gonna and
you fill in the blank with like things you would
think are the very basics, and they flat out say
I'm not gonna do it, whether it's because they don't

(13:27):
want to do a personal anywise, or it doesn't work
with their family schedule or whatever. We have people that
stay up late, we have people that wake up early,
in the morning, we have all we have all variables said,
that's not the stuff that matters. You tell me the constraint.
All humans, we all have some constraint. We can't do
it all. And then what we do is we work
around and say, okay, how do we either minimize the
damage of that or how do we stack the deck

(13:48):
with everything else. So if you're gonna be and you'
said like, I'm not gonna stop drinking, okay, fine, where
will you give me more consistency? Where can I push
you to do something else? Okay, you'll well, you're not
gonna give up drinking, but you'll do something in this
sleep protocol that we need or something in our other
aspect that would be probably pretty basic. But we're gonna

(14:08):
get triple quadrupled down on that, hyper consistent and focused
and dialed on that. It's not an exchange, it's not
an okay. But if that's a constraint, I'm not going
to ever be the one to show up and be
like like you got okay, you telling me what's off limits,
I'm never gonna ask about it again. And then we're
gonna go based on those limits. So I got I
know that was like super high level and maybe maybe

(14:29):
give you some individual details if if you have a
particular question. But I think you can hopefully hear the
passion of my voice here because that is I'm telling you,
that is the honest truth of what actually happens.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, And my favorite thing about listening to you as
a health expert in particular is that you're constantly repeating
that you're saying, you know, I don't want you to
come away from this conversation and think you have to
spend a bucket of money on X Y and Z
products or x Y and Z things to achieve your
highest level of health, you know. And I think that's
there's a lot of noise in the he space, and

(15:01):
I can think of so many things that have popped
up even over the last two years a year, you know.
But what I like about you is you really do
strip it away and say this is what you need
to focus on. I want to go into specific examples,
and I have one that's top of mind for me
just because we were here. We were here at the
place that we're currently filming in. We're at a company
called Wheelhouse, and there was a party here the other night.

(15:23):
NBA all Star weekend and we were hanging out with
Kevin Durant and he's widely known for being a big smoker,
right yeah, but he's also one of the top five
players in the NBA. He's an incredible athlete, and you know,
smoking joints doesn't seem to affect his playing, so that
would be a constraint for him. I know a lot
of people listening to this podcast enjoy a cigarette maybe

(15:45):
a couple times a week, or are you know weed smokers.
So I'm curious when you are dealing with that hyper
specific constraint, and guys, we're going to go into other
constraints as well that came to mind. But I just
have to ask about this one because I'm so curious
about it. When you're dealing with that type of constraint,
how do you work with that type of individual?

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Okay, so I'll give you tactics and tactics both here.
The high level answer is me personally, I'm just not
gonna bring it up again. I'm not he knows right now,
shout out Kevin Durant, former Seattle Supersonic and then they
stole our team, you pastords. I don't know, Kevin, but
we do deal with a lot of NBA teams. We

(16:28):
work with the entire Clippers down here and all that stuff.
So we deal with this a bunch in the NBA.
That is a very cultural thing. And you go into
other sports, it's not as much. They have other vices.
Typically you go to baseball, you need to see much
more drinking. You'll see a lot of painkillers, You'll see
a lot of marijuana in the NFL, NBA highly edged

(16:49):
towards marijuana. Okay, fine, so number one personality wise, I'm
not gonna bring it up again. Great, do you think
he doesn't know? Do you think Kevin Durant doesn't know that?
It's not an issues? So like, great, your professional all
the things. Fine, walk away from that. Then we're gonna
go back to these things and say, okay, the very
the primary thing we're gonna look at there is mental health. Right,

(17:09):
so with just as a checkbox there, there's emerging evidence
on that for some people marijuana is questionable for mental stability.
Doesn't mean anything about Kevin again, I have no insight
on him. Doesn't mean it's bad or all. But we're
going to run a quick evaluation on that aspect, right,
And if we see anything, we're going to have him.
We're going to offer to work with any number of

(17:31):
our cognitive enhancement tools. Are sports psychologists, our mental health specialists,
anything like that that are on my team if there's
any potential there. And I want to be clear here,
this does not mean necessarily he has anxiety or depression.
The whole world of what we'll call sports psychology or
mental performance is a very technical field, and that's not

(17:53):
mental health, and so this could There's a ton of
other stuff could be happening there, and so we could
laying into either of those areas if you want to.
He may have people on his team are ready to
do that. He may not have any issues there. So
again we're just like talking theory about somebody I don't know, right,
So no offense, Kevin at all. Let's blast past that.
The second thing we're gonna actually go to then is

(18:14):
we know that there are tangible potentials for sleep disruptions
with marijuana, and there's a conflicting science in that area.
But you have to balance, and you'll see a similar
thing for alcohol. You have to balance the legitimate exchange
between physiology and life, and classic examples of this are Okay,
if that is what he needs to do to manage

(18:35):
some of the elite stress that he's under. At some
point that becomes an exchange that is worth it for him.
Right now, we'd have to look at the data. We
would run the analytics and say, like, let's run really
detailed sleep analysis. And at this point, here's what I'd say.
If we have somebody like Kevin Durant, who's probably made

(18:56):
I don't know in the stratosphere of a billion dollars
in his career, when we want look at his sleep,
We're not going to be using a four hundred dollar
are wearable right, We're going to go all the way
to the end and say, if we want to see
something there, what is the most advanced science in the
world for sleep detection. Turns out that's my company absolute rest,
but we'll leave that one aside. We will look at that,

(19:16):
and then we would have an a local data and say, hey, Kevin,
here's the data. What do you want to do? And
he may say, look, okay, fine there, but when I
take it away, actually too much anxiety or fill in
the blank happens, and then we actually revert back. So
there's a balance there. We would look at. But my
answer to you directly is I'm not going to give
him any preaching based on papers and research. I'm going
to just show him his data. Here's how it's earlier,

(19:40):
I said, like, it's all about you and your physiology.
So if Kevin's teammate was doing the same thing and
we looked at both their data and it was affecting
one person more than the other one, then I'd tell him, hey, look,
you do whatever you want. You both probably shouldn't do
it this often, but here's your data. It's not working
for you. It's working for you. Step three for that
would be, Okay, let's assume he mental health checks out

(20:03):
and whatever else. Let's assume it is having a tangible
impact on his sleep or cognitive function or something like that.
It doesn't end right there. That doesn't the story doesn't
have to be you're done.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
No, and it's not. You know, and he operates at
a completely I'm obviously an incredibly high level while being
an avid smoker. So I think, like, what I'm what
I'm trying to understand from what you're saying is you know,
there is these you know, as you described before, there's
these ten key principles. We can think of them like that, right,
and I want to go into what those principles are.
And you know, if there's one that is a constraint

(20:34):
for you, then it's how can you optimize those other
things to make sure you're achieving the highest level of performance?

Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, because that third part of that answer would be Okay, well,
what specifically is being impacted and then what other tools
do we have that can mitigate that impact. So we
would then say, okay, great, you're gonna continue to do this.
And I'm making this up, totally made up. I don't
even know if marijuana would do this, but let's say
theoretically marijuana reduced his compact drain during his sleep or

(21:01):
stability or his fragmentation. Then we would say, okay, great,
here are three or four strategies which may offset that
a little bit. And so these are not necessarily things
that are going to offset the marijuana themselves, but it's
the impact that's having on his neurology in this particular case,
and we would try them. This could be supplementation. This
could be a wind down routine. This could be thermal regulation,

(21:22):
stress we could do, this could be a thousand different
things we could try and say, Okay, great, it's not
as good as zero. But if that's a non negotiable,
then let's again work on objective information for you so
that we're not guessing. And this has worked for me
successfully in my career because it's no longer about me.
It's not my philosophy, it's not my thing I'm selling.

(21:43):
It's his data and then a bunch of scientific evidence
on options, and we try them. Look at his data
and is it working is it not working? So when
we have those kinds of opportunities, that's exactly how we
would approach it. And so then again he's just he
would be in a and say, you make your decision.
Here's all information that my only job is to let

(22:04):
you know what's going on in your body. But you're
a grown adult, make your own choice, right.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
So let's talk about the ten principles that that you
know you highlighted before. What are those ten basic principles
to achieve your highest level of health and performance?

Speaker 1 (22:19):
Okay, I don't know if we're gonna land on ten exactly,
so we're gonna be somewhere between six and thirty, but
we're gonna we're gonna rip the top six. Yeah, we're
gonna rip through as many as we possibly can. Run
out the gates. It's very difficult to find people who
live really long, successful, healthy lives who don't have some
kind of physical practice. And I like that term over

(22:39):
exercise because this can be done a bunch of different ways.
You are obviously a runner, fantastic. We have lots of literature.
In fact, the laboratory that I came out of is
arguably one of the most decorated running research labs in
in American history. You're talking all the way back to
the original VO two max tests and Frank Shorter, the

(23:00):
original research on carbohydrates and exercise in the nineteen sixties
and seventies. Right, So I'm very versed in this field.
Great if you want running. Awesome if you look at
other research on populations that don't do any structured exercise
but they have really high levels of physical activity. These
are walking cultures, These are gardening cultures, these are farming cultures.

(23:22):
These are just like real high physical activity. You do
the inverse and you start looking at what I generally
am one more biased to you, and these are cultures
that are lifelong exercise weightlifters, strength trainers, justesce exercises. And
what's really really clear is you don't have to do
one of those things, but you've got to do something

(23:44):
in this physical activity practice to live long and live well.
You could do combinations. And this goes right back, okay,
to our methods versus concepts. There are methods of physical
activity infinite concepts. Though healthy people move full stop if

(24:04):
we can encourage people. And this is actually why when
I get these like longevity questions, this is a position
I always take on it because I'm like, look, the
worst thing we could do is discourage people who are
currently being physically active and have them think that their
practice isn't good. That's the worst thing we can do
for society that on aggregate doesn't move at all. We
need to promote all forms of physical activity and not

(24:26):
nitpicked down and discourage people who are like, dude, it's
everything out of my energy and my time, my money
to get to the gym three days a week, and
now I'm being told by this person that it doesn't
work or it's bad for me. That's a terrible, terrible
thing to have happened. There is some nuance there, but
the baseline should be as much physical activity as we
can and as many people past that. There's some details,

(24:49):
but that would be answer number one.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
What is the nuance?

Speaker 1 (24:53):
So there are different aptitudes that we get from different
styles of physical activity, and I like to differentiate activity
from structured exercise. I kind of said that, and I'll
walk you through that. Physical activity is your step count,
it's your movement, it's your standing or treadmill desk. It
is if you have a lifestyle, a job, a vocation

(25:14):
that involves movement. Some of us do, some of us don't. Write.
If you are a construction worker, like I grew up
in your building roads, I didn't need to do any
zone to cardio because my step count was forty thousand
steps a day or some absurd thing like that. So
in those particular cases, my wife spent seventeen years as
a preschool specialized teacher, like she's chasing three and four

(25:35):
year old autistic kids around all like she needs no
more baseline physical activity in her life. Others are different.
Now my lifestyle is like, of course, you're at a
desk the whole time, right, So I have to at
this point in my life when I didn't have to earlier.
I have to re engineer physical activity. I have to
get steps, I have to get movement. I have to
put that back into my life. The other bucket is

(25:58):
structured exercise, and we have done some research on lifelong exercisers.
We actually I went to Stockholm, Sweden, and we did
a study on eighty and ninety year old across country skiers.
So these were people that were world champions in nineteen
forties and fifties and they were still competing in the
boss a lotpit apologize for my mispronunciation Swede friends out there,

(26:19):
but it's like their version of the Boston Marathon. It's,
you know, the average person finishes in around four hours,
the elite are two hours and kind of change so
that they're rough equivalent there, but huge participation in numbers.
But it's the skiing version, right. So these people are
on year fifties, fifty five, sixty of consecutive competing years,
and we've compared those to age match controls back here

(26:40):
in the States, and I'm going to go through sort
of the data on that, but incredibly healthy. Obviously I
haven't done this, but other groups have done similar research
on that. Exchange for strength training individuals, people that have
been lifting weights for thirty forty, fifty to sixty years
and done really little to no structured cardiovascot exercise. My lab,

(27:00):
we've also done research on twins. I'm just saying, are
you really monozygis? What do you say, are monozygus like
identical twins?

Speaker 2 (27:08):
No?

Speaker 1 (27:09):
Okay, so then you're just you have a sister.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
Okay, I have a brother brother I don't count in
this study.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
Well, the brother would have gave it away, Okay, okay,
it would have been hard to be a monozygus brother
and sister. That'd be difficult. So monozygus means while we
ask identical is that literally means you're a clone. So
like you and your brother, you could have been born
three years apart. It wouldn't have mattered, right, You happened
more at the same time. But you don't have the
exact same genetic profile. You're quite different, right Obviously, if

(27:36):
you would have had a monozygus, this literally means the
exact same eggis split into two and you have the
replica of the DNA. Why this matters is now this
functionally tells us any difference between you and your hypothetical
monozygous sister that doesn't exist is simply due to lifestyle,
because we've controlled for genetics. Now, if there's differences in

(27:56):
your brother, I wouldn't know if that's because of any genie,
and you have inherited or lifestyle, right, I have two
confounding variables. So in our monos, like a twin study,
we found twins that had the exact same DNA but
had thirty plus years of differing exercise habits. And I'm
bringing this up because now we've got all three edge cases.
We've got the lifelong endurance exercises who don't do anything else,

(28:21):
We've got the lifelong lifters who don't do anything else.
And we've got twins here in the middle that are
very specific controlled for DNA, but difference than lifestyles. So
we can use data sets like that to start coming
up to conclusions and saying, Okay, what do we know
about people who, let's say, only do endurance exercise. Well,

(28:43):
in this particular study, we had somebody who's ninety two
years old at the time, and his view two max
was thirty eight. That's about what you'd find in an
average college man. It's really extraordinarily high, right, and in
fact officially andofficially that was a world record. We think,
we said, you know, this is many years ago, but
I've still never seen data on a ninety plus d

(29:03):
all having a veotemax at high. But when we start
looking at things like muscle strength, they weren't any different
than the age match controls. So one could say, had
those people added strength training, they might have been a
little more well rounded. But Kate, it's pretty hard for
me to argue they weren't healthy. Like they're ninety two
and running a view to access and competing in racing events.

(29:26):
So if I look at it on paper, I could say, yeah,
maybe you're missing some physiological attributes. But like the eye
test says you're ninety two years old, living by yourself
and still competing in races, Like, how much healthier does
one want to gat? You would do the same thing
on the other the spectrum. By the way, if you
look at the data on lifelong lifters, you'll see the

(29:50):
same thing. You'll see their view to maxes aren't as high,
they sometimes have a little more body fat, their lipid
profiles and like other cardiovascar metrics, resting heart rate blood
pressure aren't as good, but their muscle quality is outstanding,
their muscle power is fantastic, they're balanced, their coordination elite.
So then I can make the argument of the direction too,

(30:11):
which is like, do I really have to have my
view to maxicize as possible to live long well? No,
obviously don't have to with our models like as twins
in this particular case, and we saw almost an identical
mirror of this dructure position where the endurance training twins
had all the classic cardiovascular responses to endurance exercise, less

(30:33):
body fat, better blood lipids, resting heart rate, like all
these things were better, very low muscle power, very low
muscle quality as defined, and lots of scientifically different ways. Okay,
So I think we combine all the data and say,
here's what we can walk away from this from. If

(30:53):
you're a runner and that is your jam and your
physical activity is up and you've got no o their
deleterious health things, I think you can live a really
long healthy life, not just a long life, but a
long healthy life at as high as function as you want,
as long as you stay consistent, as long as you
stay you know, moving and hopefully progressively overloading all those things.

(31:17):
I think you can do it the opposite way too,
if you're on that lifting side of the equation, or
you like you know, the higher intensity stuff, or you
like sports, because I could give you the same sort
of data from athletes, competitors, right, surfers, things like that.
I think if you were to put me down and
say you're building an AI system that's going to automate

(31:38):
human physiology, most sciences would argue you're going to want
a combination of strength training ish kind of things and
endurance training. But again, we have data that suggests people
live really long, high functioning lives, hedging really far towards
one or the other. And so I'll go back to
a little bit ago where I said number one. The

(31:59):
first up on our journey is we cannot discourage physical activity.
I don't want to take a lifelong runner and go
if you're not lifting weights, you're catabolic, or you're like
the These are just not good approaches for the average person.
If we get to that next level of nuance, and
we can say we'd love for you to add once
maybe twice a week. Can can I get you to
give me twice a week of lifting some weights? I

(32:21):
can make a cojin argument that that might be a
little bit better for you long term, and I would
do the same for all my lifting buds. Right Like,
you're in the gym five days a week, you know
you're out of breath, tiring your shoe. I think I
can make a pretty strong argument we probably need to
beef that up. But the last bow tie I'll wrap
on this is that doesn't mean you have to do
all that right now. We love to look at health

(32:44):
and physiology over a lifelong spectrum. And so if you
came to me right now and said, hey, look I
want to go run a ten k, I'd bake sweet
and you're like, all only I have time to run
is three days a week and I can't lift weights
for six months. I'd be like great. I would never
chastise you for not lifting weights for six months. I'm like,
do we got sixty years? There's so much time to

(33:05):
lift weights. We can work on your flexib but we
can do all those things. We don't have to do
it all right now, though, And so I really encourage
people to have seasons. Right I think if again, if
your only modality of exercise is one thing forever, that's
better than zero if we can mix some things, but
those mixes don't have to literally be every day or

(33:27):
every week. We can run through seasons. It's like, maybe
you really focused on playing tennis for a while, great
lots of benefits cognitively, physically, cardiovascularly, muscle joints, tissue like,
reaction time, mobile like all this stuff. And then we
swung over and you got more into spind class dope,
and then you got like, we can play things where

(33:49):
we don't have to lock into something the entire time
and have this like optimal routine for sixty years. It
just generally doesn't last that way.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
And I really like that you have established that differentiation
because I think, you know, especially living in cities like
Los Angeles and New York, we're around so many high achievers.
Especially with social media, you see people taking whatever form
of exercise they do to the extreme. And I like
how you're saying you don't have to take it to
the extreme. You don't have to always have a perfect

(34:18):
amount of exercise variability in what you do. And I
am a big believer in just getting outside and moving
your body in whatever way feels comfortable to you. You know,
I've been a lifelong runner. That's always been my choice
of movement. But that doesn't mean that while I'm pregnant,
I'm not weaving in you know, pilates classes and strength training,
just to mix it up a little bit, because some
days in this current season of my life, I'm not

(34:40):
feeling up to a five mile run, and neither is
my ba, the baby and my belly, you know. And
I love this quote that I had a trainer say
to me once during one of my running interviews, which is,
you can't be one hundred percent all the time. She
said it in the context of running. I loved it.
You can obviously apply it to anything that you do
in life when it comes to physical activity, but I
thought that was really powerful.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, you know, you've asked about these kind of concepts.
Another one that will throw out a lot. In the
exercise science world, we'll call it periodization, but that's a
fancy way of saying that one hundred percent thing. So
we typically see better responses when we have varied times
of higher intensity and volume versus low. Now that's really

(35:19):
technical like exercise science. Where that can land in the
personal life is we will use a system that I
call the quadrant system. In fact it I got it
from a friend of mine is not very far from here,
Kenny Kane, Oak Park here in Santa Monica. So the
quadrant is I can walk you through it, but it
is a basic way of saying, you've got four areas,

(35:42):
and you got ten total points to distribute among those
four areas. How do you want to allocate your energy? Now,
what this can look like is everything from saying this
year I'm going to dive hard into pilates doesn't mean
you're doing zero of everything else. It's just this is
our primary thing. So if it comes down to schedule

(36:04):
or fill in the blank and you don't have time
to do that, you lift and your pilates, you know
you're gonna go to Ploate's because we've centralized a focus. Right.
That can be a year, that can be six months,
that can be a quarter. I generally think it's really
smart for people to give the body least twelve weeks
if you can of like a central focus, that gives

(36:25):
it time to actually build up enough, which is another
one of our core principles here what we call progressive overload.
Right in your world, this is more miles right, this
is more tempo this is more velocity or something like that, right,
depending what you're doing. But it's the same thing else, like, Okay,
maybe you go from plates twice a week and you

(36:46):
slowly build up to three times a week, and then
we realize, okay, we can't just go up forever. That's
not puritization. Purization is kind of up up down, up
up down, up up down. So we go, Okay, great,
this month, I'm gonna go twice a week. Next month, pooh,
I'm gonna go twice one week, three times the other week.

(37:07):
So all I've done is that two total sessions in
the whole month. Right, I'm not gonna go from two
sessions a week to three sessions a week because I'm
actually have given a fifty that's a fifty percent increase,
and then what am I gonna go to?

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Four? Like?

Speaker 1 (37:17):
It isn't be hard? But what that does allow people
look at it and go, boy, this month, it's gonna
be hard, and I'm gonna get after it. I'm gonna prioritize,
but I can I know when that's gonna end, because
life will get in your way, like life will win
jobs and family. But if you go no, I can't
do that why, because I gotta get my run in.
This is why competing and events is so critically helpful

(37:39):
for people. If it's a walking five k, I don't care.
Find something that has a date and that has This
is the beauty of amateur running. You sign up for
the event, you buy the program, you just follow it.
It has a progressive overload, it has easier days, it
is back off days hopefully right. It has all those
things and lead you to an event which is a

(38:02):
culmination and I go, okay, great, But you're not sitting
and thinking, I gotta run eighty miles a week the
rest of my life, which some of you wackos are
like into right totally, But many people are like, it's
too daunting because of the time. So personality wise, some
people find duration daunting, these workouts take too long. Some

(38:24):
people find intensity daunting, like I can't go that heavy,
I can't get my heart right all the way up there.
So just think about what is what is that? What's
that reason that's going to get you to not train
today and just be conscious and aware of it right,
And then there's gonna be the times when you need
to just get it done. But when you have a
plan like that, you can look at it and go, Okay,

(38:44):
I know that I have two really hard days a month,
two days a month where I go hard as and
so I really don't fill up to it today, But
I don't have to do this the next twenty five
days in a row. I just get and it's much
easier to go okay, suck it up, like fok at
this thing, because then I know tomorrow is the back
off and whatever. If you feel like every day is

(39:05):
the hardest thing you're ever going to do, then that's
when people last six weeks because motivation wanes and they're
just like, are thirty days or whatever? I've done?

Speaker 2 (39:12):
So Yeah, I really like the word daunting because I'm
thinking of it in two ways. I'm thinking of the
word daunting a just for somebody, you know, like myself
that's always lived a healthy lifestyle, enjoys getting a workout
in in a day, but sometimes my work day's super
stressful and maybe going for you know, going to a
really hard hit class is just going to add more
stress to my stress bucket. Right. But then I'm also

(39:35):
thinking about daunting in a way that you know, it's
a new year, it's twenty twenty six start of the
new year, and we have a lot of people that
set fitness goals for themselves where maybe they took a
year off of working out, and the idea of working
out in general is daunting, right, So let's talk about
how people can lower that stress around working out and
actually the importance of it.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Yeah. So, I mean, talk to anybody who is going
through or has gone through menopause. The word daunting, it's
a sledgehammer. It's like everyone's of course will field different
different times, but I mean, you can make the simplest
things incredibly daunting when your physiology is just not giving

(40:16):
you any help on those things. So this is an approach,
This is set up. This is a little bit of
grace in the realization that there is the plan on
paper and then there is your life experience. And the
first step in my equation here is don't make perfect
the enemy of good, like, just get something done so

(40:36):
that hit class is just not in the cards today
for whatever reason. And for me it's personally and you know,
probably not gonna go through peri perimenopause anytime soon, but
I will have the I sat on the tarmac for
an hour last night, Okay, Like that was my time
to train. So then I got back. There's this note.
So instead of being like I can't do my whole

(40:57):
hour and a half workout, like can I get fifteen
minutes done? Great? That's that's making good not the enemy
are perfect. Right, So my first step on all those
cadies will be that like, okay, if you can't get
the whole kinkobmodulink, can you least show up to the gym?
Can you walk? Can you like do something there? That
will have a couple of benefits. One is it eliminates

(41:17):
the I failed, I got nothing done. Some people that
is a negative spirals others it's not. But for those people,
let's check that box two you get some movement. In three,
you actually will see a however you want to define stress,
you'll often see a stress reduction in that act physiologically itself.
And so if you ask directly about how do you

(41:39):
reduce physiological stress, that would be one of them. Low
level of physical activity can be a really good way
to do it. So that that would be my honest
answer of saying that tactic right there.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
So we're talking a lot about fitness, you know, and
I think when a lot of people think about fitness
and moving their body and going to a hit class,
going to a plate's class, yoga, hiking, running, whatever it
may be, stream training, they think about the aesthetics of it. Right.
You know, I'm in my twenties, going to be in
my thirties soon. I feel like everybody's signing up for
a marathon. Everybody wants to look their best. We're all
trying these new diets, but at the same time, we're

(42:11):
talking about how you know fitness and your overall health.
It's not just for what you look like right now.
It's for how you're feeling at seventy five, eighty ninety
so that you can be that ninety two year old
doing that cross country ski race. Right. So what are
people getting wrong when it comes to esthetics and fitness?

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Big question? I like the term performance over longevity. I
have many reasons why I hate longevity, but the easiest
approach is it's not falsifiable. I have no idea what
anything you're doing is going to actually impact you seventy
years from now. I can promise you, though, we have

(42:54):
a good evidence base behind things that'll make you look
a certain way, make you feel a certain way and
physically perform a certain way right now, and those things
do not have to compromise long term health. In fact,
they can augment it. So my answer to that is,
it's let's take it from what's currently in front of
your face. If you want to be amazing at ninety,

(43:14):
that starts with being amazing at twenty eight. That's a
reality of it, right Like, let's not maximize and optimize
or tomorrow. But if there's a particular way you want
to look for esthetic reasons or don't want to look, fine,
we can engineer that. That's hard work, but it's not
a complicated scientific issue. You want to feel a certain way,

(43:36):
you want to feel more energy, you want to feel
more focused, you want to feel whatever. Again, same answer.
You want to perform a certain way. You tell me
how do you define perform? You tell me the rules
of the game, and we have a large evidence space
this says, okay, this is how we get to those things.
And the only difference now with you and my professional
athletes I have coach at the time right now, probably

(43:58):
eight professional female athletes that are probably the rough about
the same body size as you. The only different between
you and one of those girls would be at the
end of the day, they're going to get in a
cage in their underwear and punch somebody, and you're gonna
like wrestle with your kid here like pretty soon. So
we're defining performance a little bit different, but it's going
to be very very similar the entire approach to you.

(44:19):
So how we go about that is really a function
of what is performed to you and what are all
those things you want, and then we'll just go out
those individual tasks and tools. So the kind of question
was framed, We're like, what are people doing wrong about that? Well,
we're overly concerned about metrics that are just giving us
global insights. The way that we will call this all

(44:40):
the time in the field is like the thing becomes
the thing right where you're like, okay, yes, feotomac is important, Yes,
script strength is important. I mean, you could pick your
metric you want there. But let's also not get lost
in the weeds. There is no rational reason that I
could say, as a twenty whatever your old late twenties

(45:02):
you said right that if I take you from the
ninetieth percentile and your view tax to the ninety fifth percentile,
that you'll live better or differently seventy years from now.
There's no chance I could make that real lark, And
if if I did, I would say, like, you do
not understand number one, stats, number two, science number three,
like actually physiology at all. So we want to use

(45:24):
those things as information, as guiding lights and saying, hey, look,
there are some core physiological principles you need to be at.
But we don't want to let the thing become the
thing where we're like optimizing for a corelate, right, We
don't want to do that stuff. So that's why I
will go right back down to what I'm saying is
like before I'm worried about like you, and here I

(45:46):
am like coaching you right now. Sorry, but before we
were worried about you at ninety What anchors do we
have right now? Right? We have one very clear one
in front of us that we've got to get through. Right.
This is the most traumatizing event that humans will go
through as childbirth. Right. In fact, one of the biggest,
sometimes the largest cause of sleeping disorders and women is

(46:08):
previous childbirth. So we have things we look at you
and go, Okay, we know there's a bunch of hurdles
either known or likely to come with you. I'm not
worried about any of those other metrics right now, Like
I'm worried about you getting through this, your pregnancy and
birth and then post that, post mom care, all those
things that generally get very little information on that. And

(46:29):
let's get you back and let's make sure know these
things that are going to be a problem fifty years
from now don't happen right now, and then we'll worry
about those things later. Because if you skip those things
and we start worrying about you know, your grip strength
and hold on, like we got bigger fish to fry
right in front of us that are going to make
a much bigger impact on you.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
Can you quantify grip strength and how is it a
lead indicator for dementia?

Speaker 1 (47:03):
Yeah, grip strength is a favorable scientific measure because it
is easy. You have a very small device called a
hand grip dynamometer. I don't really have to explain to
you a lot of technique. I'll have to warm you up.
I don't have all these limitations. It's consistent across everywhere.
It's cheap and easy. So because of that, we have
tons and tons of data on it. There isn't anything

(47:24):
especially magical about handgrip strength. It's more of what I
just described of why you'll see it consistently as one
of the lead predictors of all cause mortality. You mentioned
dementia and Alzheimer's risk. You'll see it in that research
as well. We've published work in this area looking at
national databases and saying, hey, like, look, we're actually seeing

(47:45):
these kind of markers will predict risk of cognitive decline
more so than even things like education can do it. Right,
But again, you're looking at it more like a proxy
of overall health than anything else. One of the things
that is emerging rapidly and I probably have SA have
seen twelve to fifteen papers in the last few months

(48:06):
on this looking at things like handgrip asymmetry. So you
have not only overall weakness, but the difference between your
dominant and non dominant hand, or your right hand and
your left hand, which are subtly different. There that actually
may be more relevant than your overall strength. Now, some

(48:26):
asymmetry is normal, some of it is even advantageous, but
when it exceeds fifteen to twenty percent, and that number
is not completely dialed yet we don't. We're still working
some of the things out. But when you see these
large discrepancies and symmetry, now we're starting to see this
as potential indicators of neurological decline, and that's where you're

(48:48):
going to see that tie into things like cognitive decline, dementia, Alzheimer's,
potentially Parkinson's, and things like that. So that's an emerging
area and I would probably say, you know, I'm making
this number up, but I don't know. Ninety percent of
the research there is not causal yet, so it's simply
looking at databases saying, wow, the people that have the
worst cognitive scores or fill in the blank for bad

(49:09):
thing also had the lowest grip strength or were also
had the highest level of asymmetry. So the causal link
is there. There also have been plenty of trials that
have actually pre post test into the but the vast
majority is just simply saying, hey, there's an exchange there.
And so you have this conflation of information because you're like, well,

(49:33):
is it just the fact that if you're stronger, you
were generally healthier, did you probably engage in more high
level health exercise practices? Did you have access to better healthcare,
Like there's all those things that go into which is true,
but there's still room there for it saying okay, well,
there's also something to the fact that we know physical

(49:53):
strength training requires a bunch of neurological input, and there's
a ton of neurological adaptations that happen with strength training.
Neurology is your center servo system that is your brain,
and so we can see the neuroplasticity happening with exercise,
which is very very well demonstrated and documented. And so
I don't think that necessarily even it needs to run

(50:14):
out and like change all your exercise to do grip
strength training only. But I think as a quick prognostic,
as a cheap, high level test, I think it's a
reasonable starting place to pay attention to, again not only
the overall strength, but the level of asymmetry. And I
would also say this is just something we need to
continue to pay attention to before we get overly specific

(50:36):
about changing exercise habits based upon that score. A long.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
Okay, so yeah, so I'm pregnant. I'm five and a
half months pregnant. I'm having my baby in June. So
when you talk about some of those things that we
have to tackle right now as a pregnant woman speaking
to the pregnant women listening to this podcast, like and
future pregnant women, what do we have to do while
we're pregnant to set us up for success postpartum?

Speaker 1 (51:05):
Sure? Great question. I am not the expert in this
by far. Okay, I can give you generality, so happy
to that, or we can pump that and maybe you
can get a true expert on that one. I mean
when we were running around, one thing we did mention
kind of quickly is there's excellent research on exercise when
women can do any form of exercise during pregnancy and

(51:26):
it's healthy for mom and baby up to them. Right,
you don't have to do it. You're not a bad
mom if Like I've told these many times, but my
wife was horrendously sick for both of our kids. Exercise
was not even remotely option for her, like in either
one of them, and she still feels awful about this
day to this day. But I'm like, you've vomited all

(51:48):
day every day exercise like we were trying to eat,
Like drinking water without throwing up was like a win. Right,
So no, one. I want anyone to feel bad if
you can't do it for whatever reason, but I do
want you to know that you don't have to be
worried about it as like a bad thing for you
or baby strength training and endurance exercise, high intensity stuff.

(52:09):
Lots of evidence now those things are generally safe for
the average person, work with the EUROBI and all that stuff,
But categorically we don't have to doerally worry about those things.
And if you can do it, good good thing to do.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Yeah. No, I like your perspective on it, and I
like hearing that experience with your wife because one of
my best friends is also pregnant. She's due pretty much
any day now, and she is having the exact same
experience where she's been sick the entire time and her
biggest focus same thing that you said.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
She couldn't eat anything either. Yeah, the worst nutrition my
wife said her entire life was the two times when
she's pregnant. It's goldn't needt anything.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Then the good news if you're experiencing that is that
babies are parasitic and they are going to take from
you what they need.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
You want to know something wild, So she Natasha gonna
need anything. When she was pregnant. The second our daughter
was delivered, like the minute afterwards, all of her cravings
instantly switched back to normal. Wow, like instantly, and back
to the normal foods that smelled good and hated or whatever.
And she was like, and she had this weird thing

(53:10):
where she was getting like this crazy stomach pains from eggs.
Would never happen, right the second one back was like,
went right back to it. And then we had our son,
same exact experience.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
So she's like, babe, give me that blt right now.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
Parasite is for real.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
It is, it's real. And my friend that's pregnant, like,
she was so nervous because she was like, I can't
keep food down. And her doctor would say to her,
don't worry. Your baby's growing just fine. It's actually growing
bigger than expected at this week, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
So it's a tough gig, It's for sure.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
It is a tough gig. I would say, working out
for me during pregnancy has been more about the mental
than it is even about the physical, because as a woman,
your body's going to change. You can't help that, right,
and that's for the benefit of your baby. And your child.
But mentally, it's like just going for that walk, getting
that little bit of you know, as you said before,
physical activity practice in has been a game changer and
this is a different season of life and it will

(53:58):
be for every pregnancy. But it's kind of a fun thing.
When it comes to aesthetics, which we were talking about
a little bit before. You know, I know you kind
of mentioned female wrestlers that you work with, right, you
said something about women in the ring. Yea, So do
you work with a lot of people that are trying
to lose weight through your methodologies?

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Yes, so I would. I've never to be clear, I've
never coached any bodybuilders or fitness or figure or things.
So from the aesthetics in terms of like a professional,
that's not what I do. My partner, Dan Garner, he
does all that. So when people come to work with
us and they want that, Dan takes all those things.
But we have dealt with loads of people who need

(54:37):
to lose fat, not for those reasons, but because either
that's a personal priority, they just they want to lose fat.
Or two, because any of our athletes, male or female,
that are in weight class based sports, they have to
have a certain number on a scale, so like we
have to lose a fat in that particular case, we

(54:58):
have to lose weight to this specific ounce on a
specific day, and we have to do it in a
way that allows him to still train really really really
hard and compete, so we can't just crash diet down
them to where they feel awful. In fact, we had
one guy in our program last year and he had
come in on the program and every metric you could

(55:20):
possibly think of, from libido to every physiological market, like,
he had actual clinical anemia. This is a male, which
is like really uncommon to get because he was eating
like a thousand calories a day in a twenty minute
span on one meal a day for nine months. So
like he was hammered physiologically trying to get as lean

(55:42):
as absolute possible. Couldn't move, couldn't finish a sentence without
losing his trend, his brain like, couldn't complete a sentence,
super irritable, couldn't do anything, was just like laying around
the whole day on stimulants waiting to just get to
his twenty minute feeding window. And so we're like, okay,
you're eight percent, which is like not even that super

(56:03):
lean for a guy and like you're dying and you're
thirty five, and like we can send me the hospital
sort of thing. Right, So there are better and worse
ways to lose weight, is my point to that, And
we can't afford to do it in a way that
just crashes your whole life. It's like my point I'm
trying to get in his case physiology and his life

(56:25):
and his productivity. So yeah, I would not say that
we do the physique thing in terms of maximizing. Look
on stage, where we look at it is we have
a program called Optimum Muscle and so in this we're
looking at all those things. But we run a full
body MRI on people, and we don't do it for cancer,
and I'm not looking at torn ligaments. What we can

(56:47):
actually do is we can image one hundred and forty
individual muscles on your body and create a three D
model of you, and so we can use that and
we can look at things like symmetries. Is you're right
Vassi slaughterouse like that outside of your leg? Is that
muscle bigger smaller than the left one? Are there imbalances
front to back? Are we seeing fat infiltration in the muscle? Itself.

(57:12):
Are we seeing scar tissue with things like that. We
do that because we can also get moomental density and
total body fat and things like that. We like that
method because it gives us a much more specific sense
of not just how much fat or muscle you have,
where is it specifically being distributed, And that is much
different than what most people will use commonly, like a

(57:35):
dexa scan. We like lay lay in the bed and
it kind of tells you how much muscle you have
and fat. That's like very general. So when we have
people that come in for esthetic goals, we like that
optim muscle scan much better because now I can look
at it and go, Okay, it's not actually your shoulder,
it's this specific part of your shoulder, or it's this shoulder,
it's actually your trap that's being pulled up that's making

(57:58):
your shoulder look smaller, and of things you'll see in
the visualization the aesthetics world. It's not necessarily the muscle
per se. It can be, but it can be the
position of the joint. So another muscle is rolling your
shoulders forward for example, that makes your pecks look small. Right, Okay,
so you actually need to actually change something the posterior

(58:19):
side to actually roll it up, and the pecks themselves
would look bigger in this case, like probably not the
greatest best example for your audience, but we could do
this for any I'll give you one for the abs.
Abs are super easy for the same thing. You may
not have a big belly at all, but if the
position of the core is anteriorly tilted, then I'll make

(58:41):
the stomach poof out interesting.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
So it's almost by understanding your muscular breakdown of your
individual body, you can then focus on the aesthetics of
what you actually look like.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I remember what you're thinking about
here is like you're saying you want to look a
certain way or not look a certain way, right, because
esthetics is a two way option, and then people default
to either it's either I have to add muscle or
lose fat. But the reality is, I'm like, you want
to look us etainly right, So go in the camera,
take a camera of yourself from the side, and aren't
your your butt way back, stick your chest way up

(59:14):
in the air, like turn it. You look very different
and if I move your body position, you'd look different.
So I may not have to actually have you gain
any muscle or any fat at all. But if I
can change the way your skeleton is stacked on itself,
you will physically look different because you're pulling a certain
muscle into place and there. So the abs are the
best example. Like like when we think it's like a

(59:36):
couple of main cores of your abs right the front
kind of your six packrecto subdominus. Then you have your
transverse subdominance, which is like this belt, and then your
obliques on the side right. A lot of people will
make this mistake because if you do a bunch of
oblique stuff and those things get larger, that actually makes
your your the side of your ribs go out more.

(59:58):
And so you're like, I'm doing all this ab work
and I'm trying to get my like this, what's the
like you know the V shape thing. But you actually,
if you're hyperchasing those muscles, you're going to make it
more of a blocky, squared look. So that doesn't mean
you want to not do them, but it's it's the
appropriate understanding of where your bat and position there. So

(01:00:19):
it's all those things that go into it, which is
again really detailed way to go about it. But when
we when the question of aesthetics comes up, like that's
how we look at it, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
It is so interesting because you know, I have friends that,
like one of my friends is a is a nurse
and whenever it comes to training, and she definitely goes
goes in seasons training and losing fat and you know,
getting really lean. But it's so cool talking to her
because she leans so heavily into the physiology and the
science of it, where she's you know, weighing her food

(01:00:50):
and looking at her macros and really looking at body
composition and you know, versus me, it's like when I'm
working out, I'm kind of just like doing whatever feels
good and like going for a little run, you know,
but like I'm never measured. Never ever am I going
to measure the weight of my food and like, but
it is so cool because she's able to see results
like that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, there's the personality wise. I like
to describe athletes or clients in kind of three buckets,
but I'll just give you to bakers and cooks. Are
you familiar with the difference between baking and cooking?

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Okay, if I just asked right now.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Like like I am by like I am familiar with
it in the terms of like, okay, baking, I'm making
a cupcake, cooking, I'm making a chicken.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
Okay, okay, amazing. Yeah, So if you're making a cupcake, huh.
And I said, okay, just pull someone out of the kitchen,
go make me a cupcake, or go make yourself. Sorry,
go make yourself a cupcake. And I gave you no recipe,
no ingredients, no measure. Are you culinarily skilled enough to
go make a cupcake? Emerge?

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
Absolutely not. I would say, where is the boxed like
curtain that I'm making this cupcake out of?

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
Shit?

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
If I said, great, there's a chick in the fridge,
I could do that. You could do that. Why, baking
is chemistry. You can exchange baking soda for baking powder.
You can't exchange a tablespoon for a teaspoon. You will
not have a cupcake. You'll have a soup in the
in the thing if you cooking is not that. Cooking

(01:02:20):
is concepts, all right, put a little fat in there,
put some salt in there, you know, like put some
different Okay, great, Like it's conceptually there. So when we
think about this in terms of personality, traits. I would
say in general, if I said, here, you know what, like,
you've been so fun to hang out today, I'll put
you through a whole program for free. Now you can

(01:02:40):
do this in one of two ways. One way, I'll
meet with you like once a month, give you some ideas,
and we'll check back. In the other way, you're gonna
call and report. You're gonna weigh everything you eat, you're
gonna take a picture of it, you're gonna text it,
and every day after you text me, I'll text you
back exactly what to eat. And we're gonna do that
for a month. There's no in between. Which one would

(01:03:00):
you pick?

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
Probably the second one right for me?

Speaker 1 (01:03:03):
No, No, you personally? What would one you pick? Same
price point either way, nothing else matters. It's free either way.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
I mean, I would have to go with the one
where I'm talking to you more often, because then at
least after the first month, I could then go on
to doing it once a month on my own.

Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
Right. So what if I said, though, the second you
don't do exactly what I say, you're out of the
whole program.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
Okay, So if you're at home listening, you're you probably
know your answer already.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
If you are a baker, you like the precision. Okay,
Now the example I gave you is absurd on purpose, right, right,
But you want to know how what's my run today?
What pace am I at? What distance am I at?
What am I eating? Before? Right, I'm gonna weigh out
my nine jelly beans, I'm gonna have my three point
two ounces of what Like? You want that precision? And

(01:03:52):
if I were to not give that to you, and
if you're listening at home and I was like, okay,
I'll be your running coach and I'll be your nutrition coach,
would do it. I'll just be like, okay, gohet and
a running easy pace today. And you're like, no, no, that
that's not I'm like, no, I just want an easy
pace and like feel little bit, have a little bit
of carbs. And you forget me like that that's not
You'd hate it, right, you fire me? Said the worst
reviews on Yelp for Andy ever, Right, Because you want precision.

(01:04:16):
If you're a cook and I give you that level
of precision, it's suffocating. You're like, yo, like I can't
do this. It's too much like hmm, so I can't
coach a baker. Even if my personality trait is to
be a cook, I can't coach a baker like that
because they need the level of detail. I can't do

(01:04:39):
the opposite, say the other person either. Right, So your
friend is obviously a baker. Right, even if it didn't
matter if she ran six or five miles today, she
still wants a plan. She wants a thing that can matter.
Right where you might be like, hey, look, hey, you're
out of the program, Like you're gone, You're no longer friend.

(01:05:01):
If you don't run exactly five point two today at
at at an eight minute thirty second pace. You're like, yeah,
I just like want to go on.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
But here's the thing. Here's the thing. If I'm paying
for the program, I will be a goddamn baker. So
that's like where my perspective was. I'm like, Okay, well
you're telling me this is an out of pocket spend.
I'm gonna do whatever you tell me to do.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
So here's the funny part. The number one predictor of
successful nutrition and exercised programs adherents, right, the number one
predictor of how effective a program. It is not calories,
it is not intensity, none of those things will predict
any remote level of success. The only thing that will

(01:05:42):
significantly predict how effective any health intervention program is is adherence.
So when I go to my cook or my baker thing,
the first thing I'm trying to figure out is what
is going to be the strategy that makes you most adherent.
So even if I gave you light guidelines and you
didn't run the best running program in the world, but

(01:06:02):
you did it more, that'll be a net win over
me giving you a hyperstructured program the exact tops it
would be true for your friend. So I'll make up Yeah,
nine jelly beans, Oh my god, I had seven. Oh fuck,
we screwed up. Damn it. Oh no, like that matter right,
but like because that's what she needs to be able
to execute the plan. Right, So you need to put
people in a position to be able to be successful.

(01:06:23):
If you put a cook in that level of detail
and they can't be successful because it's too suffocating, right
back to the overall beginning right now, the number one
way to get people more adherent on their fitness habits
pay Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
So I made a good point there.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
No, you made a like this is exactly what if
you look at any any amount of research from the
psychology fields or habit setting. You have to put some
skin in the game. Right, If you were to throw
a free event, giant event, no one shows up, you
charge one thousand dollars for it, people will show up, right, Okay,

(01:07:07):
So the trick then for habit setting, for fitness stuff,
you gotta put some skin in the game. You have
to hire the coach a lot of times, Like it's
really popular now to make public declarations. Hey, audience, I'm
gonna run this for accountability, Like I'm gonna do this raise,
Like there has to be some public embarrassment, some financial
like some other commitment you made to You'll see people

(01:07:28):
do things like I'm doing this for blah blah blah
whatever the case is, right, that's why I sign up
for the event. It doesn't matter that. But like now
I have a date, So there has to be something
on there. The average person who will just kind of
like exercise whenever. If you'd like the exercise, great, you
do it. If you're not, that system will fail. That
system will fail. So I would tell that person go

(01:07:50):
buy a program. Don't get one. You know it's actually okay, Sorry,
one more thing on this. Like five years ago, most
of the companies in this, like human health space got
killed because everyone went to lllms. What is that tafa
uh chatchebt oh ai. Right, I'm not gonna pay you

(01:08:11):
a nutritionist writer program anymore. I can just get this
on chatgebet. I don't need a running coach anymore. Let's
get a program. Here's all my st And so all
these companies got killed because everyone was just going to lllms,
because they went from like why am I paying this
coach one hundred and fifty bucks a month? I could
just throw all this into the rock and get it
all for free. And now we're seeing the exact opposite

(01:08:31):
trying already people are flocking back to coaching even though
they could get the same thing. So what's that tell you?
Where was the value? It wasn't in the information. It's
not the nutrition program, it's not the running program. It's
the accountability to a coach. And so what we're seeing
is that all failed by in droves. It's not working,

(01:08:54):
and so people are going, I know, I can get that,
but like I kind of just like talking to Kate
a couple times a week, Like I like the way
she motivated me, and I like this, like how she
supported me or told me I was being lazier, like
whatever the case is, right, like I felt connected to
a human. There doesn't work for all people. I think
this the story here is if you don't have the

(01:09:16):
ability to hire a coach whatever, like you can get
some of these things done on a day. I told
you never have to spend a dollar to be healthy ideally,
But if you're the type of person who's like I'm
just sort of struggling, I'm kind of going in and
out of programs, I pick it up and then if
you can afford it, get a coach.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
Yeah, and then you know. The beautiful thing about coaching
and being part of a program I've always found is
that when you're a part of a program, like you know,
one that they would be in if they signed up
with you, is that not only are you a part
of a program that you now have this accountability partner
that is your coach, but you also have this entire
community that's also plugged into this program that you can
now tap into and use as a free resource.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
Totally. I mean, it's why cross this, why CrossFit blew
up right?

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Oh my gosh, yeah, and crossed Fit. I don't even
think of like a more micro level. But one of
the first people I interviewed on my running interview show
was the founder of West Village Athletics, which is a
small actually I think it's growing in Manhattan. But it's
basically like a cohort gym in the city where you
get assigned a group of people. It's like, say you're
a six am or seven AM or five am or
whatever it may be. You work out with that same

(01:10:21):
group of twenty five people or whatever the number is
every morning. You hold each other accountable and it's a
really real thing.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
Yeah. I mean, there's the reason why runners World and
Strava and like these things have huge numbers in Peloton. Like,
you want to even if you're doing from home, you
still want to see your friend, even if it's your
online friend or your real friend or that community totally
on board. That's one of the next biggest predictors. By
the way, a successful adherence is community. That's why these

(01:10:48):
companies work so well. And I don't know if you've
also saw the data too recently on at home gyms.
We actually we just published this, I've had a month ago.
We had a large database of resistance exercise folks. Is
it was like ten million data points or something like that,
ten year data set from a wearable device. What's really

(01:11:11):
clear in our data set? And it's actually really true
in the field. At home gyms don't work.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
I mean they don't work for me. I can't.

Speaker 1 (01:11:18):
I love it, you do. I refuse to go anywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
Else from my Okay, I can do an at home workout,
but I have to do like an app. Yeah, and
one of my favorite apps is Sodo Method. I talk
about it all the time, but it's not community driven,
but at least you feel like you're working out with
somebody totally. But if I have a treadmill in my house,
I'm never getting on it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
No nobody will. People unless you're like again.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
So you're an anomaly.

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
I love it for me, like that's the only time
I have to not engage with the world. But for
the vast majority of people, that's when they want to
engage in the world. So, yeah, at home gyms are
failing miserably and people are going way back towards in
gyms or other things like this because it is much
more effective for the average person.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
Let's talk about running.

Speaker 1 (01:12:10):
I realize wrong point number one, by.

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
The way, I know. Also, yeah, guys, we have to
circle back to the points. Do you want to go
to your next right? Well, you brought up a second
point too though, right where you're like, okay, this is point.
There's a lot okay running. You mentioned VO two max
a few times. Can you break down for us what
a VO two max is.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
Sure, Technically, it is the volume of auxygen that you
can bring in and utilize for exercise. It's got a
central and peripheral component. This is a ease waves of
fancy way of saying. Technically, the equation of it is
cardiac output multiplied VICE by avio two difference. So here's
what that means. When you bring in aucygen into your lungs,

(01:12:49):
the lungs and the bringing auction part is the central component, right,
So this is everything from how your diaphragm to your
intercostal muscles to your lung size. This will determine your
ability to pull in air into the system. Then you've
got to put that in to and circulate it through
the blood. So enter your heart. Okay, So your cardac

(01:13:13):
output is two things. It's your heart rate, how often
you can pump multiplied by what's called your stroke volume.
So stroke volume is the amount of blood that comes
out for pump. All we've said here is how much
oxygen can I bring in and then how well can
I pump that through the body. Right, that's our central
Now the peripheral port of portion of it is that

(01:13:35):
blood then goes through your circulation and needs to be exchanged.
What we call it the level of the tissue. In
other words, can we get that oxygen from the blood
into working muscle. Then can we get the waste product
CO two and others out of the tissue into the blood,
put that back into circulation, put that back into the lung,

(01:13:58):
and then exhale it. So the peripheral component of it
is determined by things like how many mitochondria you have
in your muscle, how many capillaries you have, your ability
to get blood into the actual tissue itself in exchange.
So this is all these components of it. So at
the highest level, again technically it's cardiac output multiplied by

(01:14:20):
avio two difference, which is how much blood you can
move and how effective you are getting oxygen out of
the blood and into the tissue, which is a course
determined by again how much error you can kind of
bring in. Now, what does it functionally stand for? It's
your maximum ability to produce energy aerobically, That's what it is.

(01:14:42):
So I need to be able to bring that oxygen
because anaerobic metabolism doesn't require auction. It's independent of it.
What we generally use it for, though, are things like
we've already sort of discussed quickly, it's relevance to longevity,
and we can speak more about what it does and
doesn't tell us actually about health from a sport perspective.

(01:15:02):
This came almost all from the endurance world. So if
you look at, in fact, the vast majority, or in
large part rather of the things we think about exercise
science comes from an endurance space. The first three or
four generations of scientists and laboratories were a runner of
cyclists and swimmers. This is the backbone of exercise physiology.

(01:15:24):
It's like you start off asking me what that even is.
The backbone of it is those sports. Specifically, you had
these really thing amazing things, like most people are aware
of Roger Banister breaking the for minute mile in nineteen
fifty four. You're probably not aware though, that a couple

(01:15:44):
of years later, you had the launching of things like
the American College of Sports Medicine, and you had a
bunch of research laboratories now exploding in this area of
exercise physiology. That's where all started. You then had the
running boom, the marathon boom in the nineteen sixties and seventies,
and then we finally got women allowed to run, and

(01:16:04):
then we have the female boom past that. So most
of what we actually know in exercise science is because
of that forty or fifty year window that was almost
entirely based on steady state and endurance sports are similar.
So viot max was popularized in those circles. And the
way I'll finished this is the big thing people were

(01:16:25):
trying to figure out in the nineteen seventies, led by
people like Frank Shorter and see Prefontaine. Is trying to
figure out, like why do some of these guys win,
Like how is Frank Shorter winning and beating Prefontaine or
the opposite, And they're doing it in very different ways,
and so they're trying to figure out, like which these
things predict in durance performance. VO two max is one

(01:16:47):
of the ways, but it is not the only predictor
of performance, and so we've known this for many years,
and in fact, the longer you extend the distance. If
you look at the research on endurance like ultra endurance,
ultra marathoners and things like that, they don't necessarily have
higher view two maxes because it's not the predictor of

(01:17:08):
ultra endurance performance. It doesn't determine if you can run
one hundred miles. Well, right, it's not going to make
you run those things any better. What determines if you
can run one hundred miles is a whole bunch of
other stuff, not your maximum over a capacity. You'll probably
see actually don't know if this is still true, but
you'll probably see the closest direct tie to like the
one mile run. Okay, that's that's going to be your

(01:17:29):
most equivalent thing to a VO two max test. So
people who have a higher two max are probably going
to do better at the fifteen hundred meter or like
equivalent sort of you know, four to eight minute endurance
events that are going because you've got to go fast,
like you're running really fast in those things. So technically

(01:17:51):
that's what it is. Scientifically that's what it is. And
then practically kind of how it's used in the sporting
realm is in those different ways. So we generally think
about vot max is is it's it's like a check
engine light in the sense that if you exceed a
certain number. Most sports, when you exceed that number, you

(01:18:13):
don't do any better in the sport. But if you're
below that number, it is problematic. And so what we
kind of look at is like, where's that number in
every indidle sport. Make sure you're there, and then we
don't need to go past that per se. But if
you are low, then this can become problematic. And that
same thing is actually true for health.

Speaker 2 (01:18:30):
So what is the view two max range that you
are supposed to be in.

Speaker 1 (01:18:35):
Impossible to answer because it's so you can actually look
at viet max in two ways, absolute and relative. I'll
just stay relative to simplify. So what I mean by
relative is it's the milli leaders of oxygen that you
can bring in and utilize per kilogram of body weight
per minute. So if you're a bigger person smaller person,

(01:18:56):
we try to take that into account and say, okay,
as a starting place. There was actually a some breaking
news about a week or two ago that another Norwegian
group claimed that they finally had somebody cracked the one
hundred mark. So a guy had a votemax of one
hundred and one. Now, this has happened a bunch of

(01:19:17):
times over the years and then eventually like comes out.
It's like the machine wasn't calibrated or like whatever. But
if it makes it easier to understand, think about viota
max on a scale of zero to one hundred. One
hundred is about the highest, ninety eight, ninety five like
something like that. Now, if you are a very high
level endurance athlete, you're probably in the mid sixties to eighties.

(01:19:44):
There are some k people who are in the eighties
kind of nineties. But again that's like you can win
a world championship in the marathon with the viotamaxis seventy.
You don't have to be ninety five. You can break
world records in all these sports right now, For women,
you want to you have to pull that number down
by about ten percent, So fyot max and women will
always be lower for reasons like the actual physical heart size.

(01:20:07):
So even when you equate for physical body size and
lean mass and things like that's a little bit different,
So wemen are going to be a little bit lower,
and then as you scale that down, you say, okay,
the average non athlete depending. So are the other part
of the reason why this is hard is it scales
with age, right, so you have to have like a
sex and an age specific kind of calibration there. But

(01:20:29):
if you want to just kind of have some buckets
or some kind of flags to play off of. Generally, females,
thirty five and above is like probably what we call healthy.
There is a number that you'll see commonly and we
saw this in our research too. When women get below

(01:20:50):
fifteen milli leaders per kilogriund per minute, that's what we
call the line of independence. What that means is it's
hard to live by yourself if your view to max
is ten because activities of daily living, laundry walking, they
require a VO two output of like five to eight
to nine. So now activities daily living are like you

(01:21:12):
running an eighty percent ninety percent or higher. So it
becomes very very difficult. So if we want to just
frame this as like fifteen is like the lowest number
you can be as a functioning human, above thirty five
is probably a pretty good number for kind of the
average female to be app and it would be pretty
rare to see a female above sixty five right that

(01:21:34):
those are you can has happened, Like Radcliffe was notoriously
super high. She was, you know, just an absolute monster.
But those would kind of bracket your numbers roughly, right.

Speaker 2 (01:21:46):
So it seems like VO two max is something that
you kind of have to have your finger on throughout
your whole life, because when you talk about the line
of independence, you know, as you get older, if you
want to be somebody that's strong and able to live
on your own and live in a dependent life at
seventy five eighty, you do have to be a little
bit focused on your votwo max.

Speaker 1 (01:22:05):
Depends on how you define focus. You should be aware
of it roughly. Now, you don't necessarily have to go
to a lab and get a VIEW two max test
done at a hospital. You can do this a thousand
ways for free. I mentioned earlier, but a really similar
equivalent is what's called the Cooper's test. It's a free
twelve that you just run around the track basically in

(01:22:26):
twelve minutes, look at your heart rate like cow. There's
all kinds of prediction equations to it eight to twelve
minute tests is typically and you can get it. Wearables
are not particularly good. The wearables that come from companies
that specialize in these areas are better. For example, no
offense Apple, but Apple has not been designed to optimize

(01:22:49):
view two max numbers, right, so you're I don't know
how accurate your Apple watch is going to be. But
Garmin is like built for athletes in dirt, like this
is what they are. So if you want to use
a wearable, you can do that too, and they have
all kinds of protocols on the wearables to look at it.
You could do again a simple run test like that.
There are submax tests you can do if you're like

(01:23:10):
I'm kind of intimidated to go like all out, fine,
we can do a two minute submax test and get
a rough equivalent of where you're at. So there's a
million ways you can get plus remius maybe ten percent
of where you're at that don't require you spending three
hundred dollars and you know going to a lab, but
you also can't like three hundred bucks is not nothing,

(01:23:30):
but it's also not like the highest medical.

Speaker 2 (01:23:33):
Bill anyone will, right thousand, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:36):
Yeah, not ten thousand, right, yeah, so you can do
those things. So I think the way that you framed
it is reasonable, like we should probably have a pulse
of it. But I don't think people should be freaked
out about making sure that they get to be able
to max DOWNE every quarter either, because really, again, it's
not the only thing, just like it is with running,

(01:23:56):
Like it doesn't one hundred percent predict you know, devity
or anything like that. But it is a good number
to have. And I'll say it maybe the other way.
If yours is really low, that's probably actionable. I would
do that. But if yours is high, going from good
to great, I mean I'm in for it, like I'm
here all day, like let's let's go have some fun,
let's party, Like this is what I love to do.

(01:24:17):
But I can't be like, oh great, that's the most
important thing to do with your health is like taking
you from the ninety percent out of the ninety fifth percentile,
Like this is probably not a true statement, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:24:27):
But if it is low, you know, say you're in
your forties fifties and you find out your view two
max is low. You want to be set up for
success going into your sixties, seventies. What are the actionable
things that you can do?

Speaker 1 (01:24:38):
Great phenomenal question. Methods and concepts, right, you can google
a billion methods. Conceptually, the reason it's important to understand
physiology is remember what it is your ability to bring
in utilized auction. There's a principle in actualized physiology that's
called said said specific adaptation to imposed demand. All that means,

(01:25:02):
Kate is if you want to get better at shooting
free throws, the most important thing you will ever do
is shoot free throws. If you want to improve your
ability to bring in utize auction, the only thing you
fundamentally have to do is practice bringing in and utilizing auction.
Now the method that allows you to do it more
frequently or that you like and you can do it

(01:25:24):
you don't get hurt. Those are methods questions. But conceptually,
you want to do more low level activity activity, fine,
you want to do more high intensity great? You want
to do it running, you want to do it, Cycling,
you want to do it, throwing a kettle bill, push
a sled, you want to play tennis. Those don't actually
determine the heart. It just knows it's pumping. It doesn't

(01:25:46):
actually know what you're doing per se. So these are
tactic questions, These are personal preference. These are what is
your ole program, what your injury history look like, where
you live, is it nice outside? How much time do
you have? So I'll ask you a thousand follow up
questions if we figure out like a protocol for you.
But conceptually, anything that makes you elevate your cardiovasker output

(01:26:09):
is for most people, gonna get you there. I can
give you a little bit more of a direct answer. Generally,
I think doing at least one day a week of
sustained low level exercise, not physical activity like actual exercise zone.
I don't really care one, two, like three, whatever you

(01:26:32):
want to be twenty minutes, Give me twenty minutes of
sustained kind of exercise. I don't care. If you want
to pomp on the bike, pick a random little like
track event on there. Sure, If you like to clear
your head and go for a runt, fine, amazing, give
me that one day a week. Then give me something
one day a week where you get your heart rate

(01:26:54):
up as high as you can manage, and I'll leave
it at again. I hate the numbers here, like don't
don't matter that much it's like, get it up to
a level that you really don't want to be at.
This is very, very uncomfortable. And if you want to
do that by going to an activity class or hitting
the spin thing, or you want to do sprints or

(01:27:16):
again kettlebell class, I don't really care. But if you're
in that position where you're like, yep, I think I'm
gonna die right now. Okay, now you've handled kind of
both aspects of the cardivascar demand. That's two days a
week filling the rest with personal preference. We call it
dealer's choice. Great, you like more of the high intensity stuff, great,
do more of it? You hate it? Fine, you want

(01:27:38):
to do more? Great? Like dealer's choice there, But if
you give me one of those once a week each
most people are going to be pretty good requite some time.
Once you get really highly trained, the answer differs, but
for your question, for those people, that's going to get
most people in the right direction.

Speaker 2 (01:27:53):
So when a lot of people talk about running, they
also talk about endurance. Is endurance broader than just running longer?
And is it different than VO two max.

Speaker 1 (01:28:04):
Ooh tremendous question. Yes, you could split up endurance into
like fifteen different sub things. Easy example, we talked a
little bit earlier about ultras run your ability to run
fifty plus miles. In fact, some of them actually just
did a whole episode on runner's Heart. Are you familiar with.

Speaker 2 (01:28:27):
I know that runners have a low resting heart rate.
Does that play into this?

Speaker 1 (01:28:31):
Yes, So Runner's heart is actually this paradox of this
really high frequency of elite runners getting heart disease, which
is like should be counted. It's the most effective cardiovascular
thing we can do for health wise. But then yet
you're also wham getting this huge increase in heart disease. Right,

(01:28:54):
So there's like a little bit of a juxtaposition, the
paradox happening right there. But you see this lot in
the folks that are in like the ultra communities. So
your ability to run for two hundred and fifty miles
three hundred miles are like ned one thousand miles. And
actually my friend Ross just swam a thousand miles around
Iceland did it like one hundred and twelve days, I think,

(01:29:16):
So you're talking on an average eleven mile swim per
day for three months. It like with Keller whales and
like all the day, like it's freezing up there, right,
so you can do these things that are not like
your viot max has nothing to do with that. For
the most part, right, they have reasonably high YEOTO maxes.
But if you go to like the Scott Jerkin, it's

(01:29:36):
like the legendary ultra runner Dean Carnassis, like these these
guys don't necessarily have huge VIEO to maxes. They may
or may not, but you wouldn't be able to tell
the difference. The I don't know a courney d Waltz.
I don't know what her view max. I don't know
if you're done. But you get point like I have
no idea what her actually is or isn't because I
didn't tell you. You start walking that down and you
start saying, okay, what about the marathon? Same answer, and

(01:30:00):
you start going down to lower than that, and you
start going, okay, what about high rocks? What about CrossFit?
Now you're actually crossing down into what the ultras. You
have things that we would typically call tissue tolerance. Your
ability to run fifty miles is determined in large part
by your ability to just handle fifty miles of pounding

(01:30:21):
on your joints. When people dnf those things. It's their
toes are black, the ankles blew up, right, like, the
joints are just destroyed because the tissue couldn't handle that
much volume. Now, sometimes they bonk because of fueling or hydration,
but you're limited in those things by that fueling hydration

(01:30:41):
tissue tolerance. Very few people ever didn't finish a marathon
because they ran out of muscle g lycogen. I mean,
it helps to go faster when you fuel. And certainly
if you're like an amateur runner like me, like I
wouldn't last the twenty six point two because my feet
would blow off because I have not tolerant to that
at all. Right, so there's still tolerances there, but you're

(01:31:03):
now walking down the line, Okay, your ability to buffer acid.
These are not really issues when you're running one hundred
miles or even if you're running twenty six fast. Yes,
but the average person who is kind of running like
the ten minute mile thing, that's not happening. You start
getting at the high rocks and CrossFit, and now you're
actually looking at things like muscular endurance. So how many
repetitions can you do at a pretty decent load, how

(01:31:25):
well can you handle acid build up, how well can
you handle extreme high levels of anaerobic fatigue. These are
totally different layers. So if we were to I have
a video on YouTube of like all the different types
of endurance and physiological things, and I think I have
like six or eight buckets that these fall into. But
they're all wildly different, and there's no universal scientific name.

(01:31:48):
So endurance, conditioning, cardio like these are kind of interchangeable,
but they're they're not necessarily the same exact thing. So
it's a little bit easier to just describe them by
event rather than it is like a physiological system where
I can differentiate technically between power and speed. I have
a mathematical equation for that. We don't have that same

(01:32:08):
clarity on the endurance side of the equation. So, yeah,
they are not the same thing. They are their cousins.
They're you know, they're not miles like as twinso hetero's
like us. They're they're highly related, but they are not
on themselves, the exact thing, and so the training is
different to maximize them. The determinants about who's gonna be

(01:32:31):
good or not differ again highly related. You take Courtney
and you go have a run a mile right now,
she's gonna have many the same physical attributes. It's the
best milers in the world. She's not gonna be fast, right,
But so again, highly related but not the exact same thing.

Speaker 2 (01:32:49):
Okay. So, say you are somebody that wants to run
an ultra marathon. In your training for an one hundred
mile or fifty mile or even training for your first marathon,
what is your endurance have to look like and what
do you have to do to optimize to be able
to run that far of a distance.

Speaker 1 (01:33:06):
So, okay, I appreciate you asking it that way, because
there's also difference between running and ran it fast. Okay,
So my friend Cam his son right now, Truet is
trying to run and qualify for Olympic trials. So that
means I think he has run like a two hour
fifteen minute marathon and he's currently like two thirty and

(01:33:27):
you're like, oh, only as to shave fifteen minutes off
when you're like, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:30):
Well you're a runner, you know that's hard.

Speaker 1 (01:33:33):
That's like very likely impossible, right, Okay, true, it doesn't
is not gonna have an issue with endurance. He can
show up and run an ultra anytime, he's gonna be
limited by his ability to run fast, Like can he
just run a four minute mile? And how many of
those can you do in a row? Right to know?

(01:33:54):
And if you do the basic math on what a
two to fifteen marathon is per mile, you realize you're like,
oh my god, you have to be really fast. An
ultra is not that your speed like doesn't determine it.
You have to have the ability to consume calories consistently.
It was actually funny, like you're gonna be like, what
the hell are you talking about? But one of the

(01:34:15):
major determinants of the ability to run your first ultra
is your gut, Like what you like? Why? Because you
have to be able to stay on track with your
hydration and your fueling, and that is in large part
determined by your stomach's ability to handle that much. See,
you have to be able to maintain the fuel and
hydration when you see the people balk and fails because
they get behind on those two marks and they're like, Okay,

(01:34:38):
I just couldn't drink any more water, I couldn't have
any more goop acs or any more exogerous key tones
or whatever you're using, and their coach or their trackers
like gotta eat, gotta eat, gottat and they don't, and
then all a sudden, five miles later they're just like
gone right, like you can't, especially if it's hot, like
you have to stay on track of those things. Then
after that it is simply consistency in your stride, in

(01:35:00):
your movement, and it's tolerance like it is the ability
to can your joints handle that stuff. So the training
in itself is like reasonably simple brutal work, but sort
of simple because the task is can you stay on
board for twenty hours or whatever the time demain is

(01:35:20):
going to be right, so can you stay fuel and hydrated?
And can you just simply handle the physical beating of it.
And the way you handle the physical beating lots of
metabolic efficiency. So being really good at producing the perfect
amount of energy, not too low, not too high. You
become metabolically efficient because you're training over long periods of time,

(01:35:44):
really good at utilizing fuel, and because you're technique, you're running,
technique becomes really consistent and smooth, and so you have
the least amount of energy waste. The energy waste makes
you burn more energy as well as puts more stress
on joints. So those would be the global aspects of
get really technical with your technique and then make sure
that you can fuel and hydrate and then put the

(01:36:06):
miles on that. That's one case where it's like it
is kind of a mile game, like you just have
to put the.

Speaker 2 (01:36:11):
Numbers in right, And that's obviously like get extreme too
right when you're I mean, training for anything under a
sub three marathon wise is like you're taking it to
that next level. But like for our amateur runners, like
for myself, for example, I'm planning on running the New
York City Marathon postpartum. I just think it's a badass
thing to do. And so I'm probably gonna be able
to train for twelve weeks, which is good because I

(01:36:31):
think you mentioned twelve weeks being an optimal amount of
training time.

Speaker 1 (01:36:34):
For I would say optimal. But it's really good.

Speaker 2 (01:36:36):
It's good, it's fine, right, Like I'll be able to
do it and you know, be very uncomfortable but still finish.
But I'm curious, like for us, like amateur runners, you know,
for most people out there that are running that ten
minute or nine minute pace, where does the food is
fuel come in Yeah, you know, and how are we
optimizing for running a marathon?

Speaker 1 (01:36:56):
For the marathon? Okay, great, So you're you're going to
be in the stratosphere of four and a half our
time domain, I have to do.

Speaker 2 (01:37:03):
It under four hours. I'm saying that now, Okay, but
like I have to have never done this over.

Speaker 1 (01:37:07):
Four hour marathon, Okay, okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:37:09):
So I'm gonna try to do it in like three
point fifty or something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:37:11):
Okay, perfect, Great, So you're going to be limited. How
long postpartum do you have?

Speaker 2 (01:37:18):
So we're having our baby sometime in June, and I
think I'll be cleared to run by September, so I'll
have like November is the first weekend of November I
think is New York City Marathon.

Speaker 1 (01:37:28):
So okay, okay, great, So you're gonna want to make
sure working backwards here that morphologically and anatomically you're set
up correctly because you're gonna have to put some time
domain and you have to put some miles in right,
So pelvic floor, pelvic hurdle, all those things that the

(01:37:49):
average mom won't have to be that worried about. We
have to do this. We have to deal with this
a lot in female athletes, right that have kids, you
just have an extra maststress, and especially your sport given
the fact that it's up and down vertical, and there's
the whole host of things that can go into that
so pelvic floor and I'll just call it that for
now and all the other it's really a lot of

(01:38:10):
stuff so on oversimplify, but we'll just call it that
now that matters, because that will become a first limitter.
The first thing that's gonna stop us from getting whether
it's it's any physiological attribute, is like, can we stay
uninjured And you're probably not gonna be injured in like
your knee, your back, It's gonna be those types of
things that become a problem. Right, So that is it fueling.

(01:38:33):
I'm not super concerned of at that point because of
four hour marathon. It's not that many calories you're gonna
fuel for comfort for the most part. But we're not
trying to be We're not gonna be pushing your physiological
ability as a human. If you were like sub three,
then I'd be like, Okay, this is becomes a real
big do we still want to do it? But not

(01:38:54):
the first stop under training so in your particular case,
I would say, pick a strategy on your training and
do it. And this sounds wild, but a lot of
amateur runners will not do their fueling and hydration strategy
in their training. And I'll say that again you're like,
wait what And some people are listening to me like,

(01:39:15):
oh yeah, I never thought about that, Like, you need
to do the thing you're gonna do in the race
in your practice. Let's see what this feels like on
your stomach. Let's see what's too much. Let's see what's
that wasn't enough And I balked at mile fifteen. Okay, great,
So we need to pick up that as a thing,
and then we can start that at your ten ks,

(01:39:36):
like let' let's go figure it out a ten k,
like how did it last? How did it feel? We
don't you know, the answer will change when we get
to twenty k and all that, but like, let's start
to see what that feels like at that range. So
that is one we need to build back your overall
cardiovascular capacity. That's probably gonna come because you're an experienced runner.
Have you done a marathon before?

Speaker 2 (01:39:57):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:39:57):
How many?

Speaker 2 (01:39:58):
Three?

Speaker 1 (01:39:58):
Okay? So actually four?

Speaker 2 (01:40:00):
Technically I didn't unsanctioned one during COVID. Oh nice, Yes,
I love the word unsanctioned.

Speaker 1 (01:40:08):
Did you run on high school?

Speaker 2 (01:40:09):
I did?

Speaker 1 (01:40:10):
Yeah, okay, And prior to that, I've always.

Speaker 2 (01:40:13):
I've been runner since I was like fourteen, so I've
been running for a while. So I'll get that back quickly.

Speaker 1 (01:40:18):
Yes, Because we actually have recent evidence in the last
about a year or so. We've always known of what's
called muscle memory with disabilities, like if you grow muscle
from strength training and then you lose it, that it
regrows faster in the first time. You'll see the same
thing with mine on Condrio benefits. So your technical stuff,
your tissue and your I'm like looking at your feet
right now, right because your ankles, your calf's, your achilles,

(01:40:41):
Like that tissue will come back. It's if you have
fifteen years of that running on it, that's already ingrained.
You feel rusty, you feel clunky and slow and unathletic
and all the things. But that'll come back in a
matter of a month, Like you'll probably start to feel
much better. But we do need to build that tolerance
back up. Number One, the cardiovascar engine will come back.

(01:41:03):
The cardiovascular capacity view two max is actually really stable.
It'll stay around for a pretty good amount of time.
Speed and strength go really fast. Skill goes incredibly fast,
So you're you're running stride and stuff is gonna feel clunky.
Another thing that men particularly don't realize about childbirth as
well is anatomically you might be different. Things might be

(01:41:26):
in different spots than they've ever been, Like what like
your organ Yes, for sure, I mean think about what's
happening inside you now.

Speaker 2 (01:41:33):
They're all like squishing up, they're.

Speaker 1 (01:41:34):
All moving everywhere, right, they may not go back to
the exact same spot, and so the way that things
are sitting on your entire girdle, it just might be
a little bit different. Might be fine, But we don't
know what we're gonna plan for that, so we're not
thrown off by it and say, okay, you just might
feel clunky. We might have to do things a little
bit different movement wise, or no, that might be true.

(01:41:55):
You might pop right back in and be like, no,
I feel okay, okay, we're gonna play for all those things.
Those won't be our limitters. We will be limited, though,
and probably low back in these areas that have been
in a weird position for six months. Shoulders we see
next stuff happening too, where you're just like, man, like

(01:42:17):
not gonna be there. Why well, because I'm holding the
baby like this all the time and I've never done
that before, and like like this is weird stuff that
we haven't anticipated. And so all that wrapped around of
saying we're gonna build back our base with someone like
you that's gonna come back really fast, but we need
to think about some of these other things that you
haven't had the tissue you experienced with. If we can

(01:42:38):
get all that on board, then we need to start
building up speed because for a ten minute pace is
not you know, one hundred meters sprint space, but it
is faster than you're running now, and we need to
get that back again because running a sub four is
easier when you're faster, right Like, we'll build the endurance
and you've got that base. Let's speed goes much faster
than this stuff. So let's make sure that your stride

(01:43:00):
is there where we can cruise and a ten minute
pace doesn't feel like you're in an all out sprint,
right like, Let's make sure you can do that where
you could run a seven and a half minute pace
for one if we had to, or you know, probably
something like that. That way at ten feels like a
really smooth system. So building a little bit of the base,

(01:43:21):
mixing in some speedwork, mixing in at least once a
week of hitting. Whether these are like fart looks or
lack date, like different kind of coaches and communities will
use different language here, some kind of interval where we're
like developing fatigue management, coming back, developing fatigue management, and
coming back. Those would be the three kind of big

(01:43:42):
components to mix in and slowly progressing that over the
twelve weeks until we can get you in a spot
where you can get there. But those would be the
big components, with the last one being the two biggest
factors that are going to be huge variables you've never
dealt with. Are going to be fueling because of you know,

(01:44:02):
if you're going to be nursing or not. That's a
whole bunch of energetic demands that you're not used to.
You got to make all that. And the biggest one
by far though, is your sleep. I mean, we know
what's going to happen to your sleep, especially the baby
will be under six months. Yeah, I mean, you're going
to be still recovering. So not to say you can't

(01:44:22):
do anything, you should be able to, but we just
have to realize. I guess maybe the way of saying
it is this will not be the same twelve weeks
as it was before M's that's just a different thing.

Speaker 2 (01:44:33):
Now. Yeah, it's going to be a I mean, it's
going to be a massive challenge. But then I also think, like,
you know, I go back to that word that we
were saying before when it comes to following a health
program and just that word adherence, right, and it's like,
if you want to do it, you got to say
to yourself, Okay, these are going to be probably the
hardest twelve weeks that I've ever had to experience in
my life.

Speaker 1 (01:44:50):
But I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:44:50):
I know, right, it's a good challenge. And then it
goes back to us talking about setting goals and having
things that we want to achieve.

Speaker 1 (01:44:57):
No, it's great, like you should be able to do
all those things and still do all the other stuff
with your baby and your business and all the other
stuff you want. But yeah, an if you don't land there,
Like if you don't, it's fine, but like getting after
it is smart.

Speaker 2 (01:45:22):
You work with a lot of men and women of
all ages. What would you say women need to be
thinking about differently than men when it comes to fitness.

Speaker 1 (01:45:33):
Not much. When you compare the variables that are most important,
there aren't that many that are fundamentally different between men
and women. Now, there are a billion things that are
critically important to pay attention to for you as a
human being, but just bucketing that as men versus women.

(01:45:56):
It's not consistent with the evidence space Just don't see that.
And we could go this from many many angles, if
you would like. Lauren colenso Simple, who worked in my
lab for many years, has finished her PhD in this area.
I just had her on my show. She's been going
around a lot, but she's published a lot in this area.
Many other colleagues that published in this area. As you mentioned,

(01:46:18):
I have worked with and still continue to work with
a lot of females, young, old, et cetera. And so
from a practical experience as well as a scientific literature,
there are certainly things that are different in men than women.
Of course, the question that you're ultimately asking is how
much that difference should inform exercise selection and nutrition selection

(01:46:40):
daily selection. Okay, just because your hormone profile is different
at this current time, based on the evidence that itself
is not sufficient and the enough rationale to automatically give
women different training. Now, should you pay attention to your body, Yes,
you should, if you're young or old, or men or women,

(01:47:01):
or a dog or anything else. We should always always
be paying attention to the individual. I'll say this maybe
a little bit differently. If you were to look at
any training program of mine on paper, you couldn't go, oh,
that's a female program. You couldn't go, that's a male program.
And if you could, I would seriously question what the

(01:47:22):
hell is happening in your programming. We've just seen this
time and time again. That story doesn't hold true. Now,
are there different considerations, Yeah, of course, But that doesn't
mean at the top level we go, Okay, every girl
that comes to a program trains like this, or eats
like this, or doesn't do this. And the people that

(01:47:43):
have advocated for that have consistently seen more and more
and more research systematically showing that is simply not the case.
So that is not consistent with the current literature, and honestly,
it's never been consistent with the human literature. It's wild
that this thing got super popular, this entire idea. I

(01:48:04):
understand it. I absolutely do. Women have been underserved in
every category, and specifically particularly in sports, health and exercise.
Everything is still is primarily geared towards men. So to
hear a voice that says, hey, I'm listening to you,

(01:48:24):
I'm hearing you and going to give you everything from
the male perspective, I completely see what that's captivating, and
I'm all for it. We have done a lot of
research in my lab on female specific health and fitness
related things, and we'll continue to do that. We've had
male students of mind that are interested in that, so
we've done that work. We've had female students of mine,

(01:48:47):
graduate students, doctoral students, postdocs, so we've done that research.
Others have published much more than I have in this field,
but we've continued done that. This has been a scientific
interest of mine for a long time. I've applied for
so many grants in this area. We're running a study
right now actually in my lab, Zo Hackinson, my student
in Federic Kanti, They're they're running this right now where

(01:49:09):
we're actually running detailed analysis of sleep every day throughout
the menstrual cycle, because it's actually there's very limited information
about what actually happens in healthy females throughout the menstr
cycle in terms of sleep. So I love this field.
It's just like super scientifically interesting. So I can say
this with pretty high level of confidence. When it comes

(01:49:31):
to then just to say like women should never do
this as a blanket statement, I honestly get really frustrated
because it's not consistent with the research. It never has been,
and it's not consistent with what the highest level of
practitioners in the world are actually doing. So happy to
dive into any amount of detail there on anything you'd like,
but it should Every program should be individualized men, women, young, old,

(01:49:56):
like all these things are a factor, injury history, preferences,
All this stuff matters. Yes, So if you say, should
I pay attention to whether I have a female client
or mil with client, yes, just like you should pay
attention to their injury history and whatever other information you have.
You should pay attention to all of it. But just
like I would tell you, Okay, my eight year old

(01:50:16):
girls do this type of lifting, my eight year old
boys do this type of lifting, you probably look at
me and be like, what the what are you talking about?
And I would say the same thing for eight or
eighteen or eighty eight, like, that's not the thing that
automatically determines how you eat, train or otherwise. So I'd
say that the messages otherwise have been very poor interpretations

(01:50:36):
at best of the research. So again not to hope
they didn't if anybody, I don't want to like directly
go out anybody's opinion on this, but understand the loure
one hundred percent. I totally get it. We always need
more research in those things. And the sort of other
thing to here is these issues have often been conflated.

(01:50:59):
There is a difference between including women in research and
doing women or female specific research, and so that is
actually causing a lot of the confusion here as well,
because those are not the same things. So I'll pause
after that little bit of a rant. Yeah, happy to
go with. If there's any direct questions, Eric, I can

(01:51:19):
answer them kind of like one by one if you'd like.

Speaker 2 (01:51:21):
I appreciate your perspective. And I also think that you
studying sleep during a woman's mental cycle could be really
interesting because again we in the beginning of this episode
talked about constraints, you know, and if there's something happening
constraint wise that maybe isn't something fixable just based on
what's happening hormonally in a women's body during their menstrual cycle,
then it's like, okay, can what can we work on?

(01:51:43):
You know otherwise? And then I just really have to
comment on this. Or eight year olds lifting, Oh yeah,
oh my gosh, they're like second graders's.

Speaker 1 (01:51:51):
That's that's fine. There's actually a ton of research on
strength training and kids. I did a whole episode on
my podcast Perform about out this not to do tourists.
But the quick answer is, as soon as kids have
an interest, have the ability to pay attention they want
to do it, you can start doing you know, quote
unquote strength training. You're not gonna do one rep maxes

(01:52:13):
on a barbell and like things like that, but there's
tons of stuff kids can do. My kids sometimes do it,
sometimes they don't. My five year old has no ability
to pay attention, so like he's not doing But yeah,
eight year olds like physiologically totally fine. Lots of research,
lots of randomized control trials and observational things on kids.
Absolutely safe, good for him. If they're supervised and pay

(01:52:35):
attention and you're programming it appropriately for an eight year old,
totally fine, Yes, continue back to.

Speaker 2 (01:52:40):
Your just picturing like a really buff eight year old.
I know Jeremy's that were there, like researching like how
can I make my eight year old daughter?

Speaker 1 (01:52:46):
Oh yeah, but no, you can compete like you can
compete in powerlifting weightlifting.

Speaker 2 (01:52:52):
Ye, I'm picturing. I'm thinking of I just went down
a wormhole of America Ninja Warrior, I think that's what
it's called. And I'm just picturing like the comfit with
my little kids.

Speaker 1 (01:53:01):
Yep. Oh yeah, you could do that stuff too. That's
even better, like gymnastics and human movement. That's tremendous for
kids need to move. We'll save that rant for another day.
But there's a whole lot to say about we. Okay,
I can't you walk me down the trap here. One
of the biggest epidemics we're seeing right now that nobody's
paying attention to is bone So bone health is falling

(01:53:24):
off of a cliff, and this almost exclusively targets females.
Men have an issue with this too. We're seeing higher
rates of ostiopeniostriporosis, and men than we've ever seen before.
That continues to rise, but it is a particular problem
or concern for women. And what's terrifying about that is
the vast majority of your bone mineral density you will

(01:53:45):
have as an adult was already determined by what happened
between like ages seven and eleven. So when you like
bring that up, that's why I couldn't pass on this
bait here. Not only is it okay for young girls
to lift a weight, but it's incredibly important that we
encourage as much physical activity in young girls. And again

(01:54:08):
I'll define young as like six to twelve or thirteen,
because I'll all open that window up incredibly important. In fact,
there's actually excellent research showing you can even predict things
like type two diabetes in adulthood based on physical activity
pre puberty in young girls. So what you're doing in
that critical window for females will set them up not

(01:54:31):
as a life sentence, but it's a huge predictor of
what's going to happen in a lot of their adult life.
This doesn't have to be lifting weights, it doesn't have
to be official sports. So I'll be really clear when
I say this again, like physical activity and play are
critically important, and we've never had to focus on it

(01:54:52):
as much as we have to do now because my
generation was outside. This generation is not. My generation had
much more physical activity in school. This generation does not.
My generation had far higher sport participation than this generation.

(01:55:12):
All of those three things are falling off a cliff
with kids right now. So you're not being active during
the day, they're not playing sports, and they're not having
structured physical activity as much in schools. Now. That differs
depending on where you're at. Of course, I'm saying like
general trends across developed countries, So you got to trifecta

(01:55:32):
hitting young girls, which name of what happens when those girls.
In fact, your peak boone menal density is happening right
about now in your age. But again that was determined
by what you did fifteen or so years ago. So
it's really really important to me if we look at
like the next generation. One of the biggest things I
think we need to do is stress physical activity in

(01:55:53):
young girls. I love sports, but not all people into sports.
Fine outside indoor gymnastics, like whatever things we can do,
and you want a lot of variety of it. Let
kids play. I don't need to be like, we don't
need to be optimizing their stride length at seven, right,
I don't need a lot of technical detail, but there's

(01:56:15):
a lot of movement and a lot of variety, and
let them understand how their bodies work and let them
go into adulthood having a appreciation in some kind of
physical practice. I mean this ENTI our conversation, Like, I'm
such an advocate of like, let's not walk people out
of physical activity. Ever. So if you're into running, fuck, yeah,

(01:56:35):
I'm into it. If you're into kayaking, dope, if you're
into running through the forest and picking mushrooms, like, I'm
in for it. Like I don't care what that thing is.
But we have to push harder for kids, particularly young girls,
to be active in that window. And it's hard. I
get it. I don't have a teenage daughter yet, but
I you know, I hear these horror stories. It's before that, though,

(01:56:58):
Like get it when you can, and then you know
once they enter that age of fifteen years and that
their own little species will do what they want to do.
But as much as we can possibly do that before that,
do it. So you baited me twice of that, So
I had to go down that road a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:57:14):
But then even just talking about that makes me think
like there are certain protocols that women have to be
aware of when it comes to their physical fitness and
that men have to be aware of that are just
biologically different.

Speaker 1 (01:57:26):
Right, Yeah, So bone is actually a good one where
there's the strongest rationale for at any age, women on
average have to pay attention to bone health more than
men do, so I personally think you do this a
couple of boys. One. I advocate for women to get
some sort of diagnostic bone health scan, probably fifteen to

(01:57:47):
twenty years earlier than is going to be recommended by
the medical community. I think thirty thirty five years old
is ample time because unlike fat umlimus, unlike anything else
in your physiology, bone takes a really really long time
to change. I can change your body fat in weeks.

(01:58:10):
I can change your run. We can meet you from
a baby to a marathon in sixteen weeks or you
know whatever we're gonna do probably twenty four weeks. Whatever, Right,
no big deal. I cannot change your bone real density
twenty four weeks. Like you'll see it on the scan.
It will not be stetistically different, so I do need
to pay attention to that one. Men need to pay
attention to it too. But to your point, like, this

(01:58:30):
is much much, much, much bigger. I actually don't know
the numbers exactly, but it is far higher of a
concern in females. So yes, this would be a case
where I would say this is a female's not specific issue,
but something that that women should be paying attention to do.
I advocate for earlier scanning, getting a bone mineral density
scan done. You can probably get this done for somewhere
between fifty to three hundred dollars all across the country,

(01:58:53):
Like many places are opening up in the world. If
your insurance or physician won't order this, pay out of
pocket worth it, it will probably come back. Okay, we're
actually seeing a lot of men flag for this way early,
like sub forty, which is a thing we never used
to see. But nonetheless, get this stuff done. The strategies
for this are honestly pretty simple. High quality nutrition will

(01:59:17):
do it, but outside of that it is resistance. Exercise
is our best tool for that. Things like walking with
the wait vest will not do it. That's not going
to be sufficient. I'll go back though, like, I don't
want you to stop doing that. If that's like that's
if you're doing that, that's a win. But that's not
covering the box for bonemerial density. We've got to do everything.

(01:59:41):
So that's a little bit unbune.

Speaker 2 (01:59:43):
So Jeremy's mom's sixty six years old and she's a
marathon runner, and she started running marathons in her fifties.
Nice and she's since.

Speaker 1 (01:59:50):
Because I love that stuff so much.

Speaker 2 (01:59:51):
Good for her, it's so impressive. And she is a
sports psychologist. She specializes in performance. She works with a
lot of NFL athletes, you know, retired athletes, and she's
a big believer that I mean, she basically coaches herself
to perform at the level that she performs at, yeah,
you know as a sixty six year old woman. But

(02:00:12):
when it comes to bone density, she realized really quickly
this past New York City marathon cycle that she has
weak bones. And it comes down to, I mean, a
lot of it for her is what she's eating. She's
like a vegan, vegetarian kind of everything that you could
possibly be.

Speaker 1 (02:00:27):
That mean, pretty small yet very lean.

Speaker 2 (02:00:29):
Very small, and she tripped and felt the New York
City marathon and broke her wrist in like horribly. She
had to get like emergency surgery. It was like a disaster.
Looking back at it now, like you know, now she's
been a lot more focused on her bone health and
things that she has to do nutritionally and also fitness
wise to kind of improve it. But it is just

(02:00:50):
such like a clear case study.

Speaker 1 (02:00:52):
Of it's pretty consistent. You'll actually see there's really interesting
research on bone density being super specific to regions of
the body based upon exercise. So where bone is deposited
for cyclists is different than swimmers, and it's different than runners.
So again, let's not lose the plot. Your sixty plus
year old mom is running marathons badass? Hell, yes, yeah,

(02:01:16):
all of it. Can we do a few tweakings there? Yes?
And what I love the most about it is the
fact that she took something bad and turned it into action.
Like that's the story here. It's not the fact that
you suck, you did it wrong, you're an idiot. It's oh, yep,
got a good learning here. Now what do I need
to do in action? Here's the behaviors and habits I

(02:01:36):
need to change. I'm sure she's gonna put some strength
training into her life.

Speaker 2 (02:01:40):
I hope so, yeah, I hope so. And then it's
you know, runners are runners, and it's kind of like,
when's the next marathon?

Speaker 1 (02:01:47):
I get you know, dude, I get it right like,
and I don't like people shouldn't lose that that's an
amazing thing to have happen. So hopefully she makes some
changes in bone. But out said of that, that's great.
I hope she keep herar marathons.

Speaker 2 (02:02:01):
I do too.

Speaker 1 (02:02:02):
Maybe she can be your running buddy or you can
run with her.

Speaker 2 (02:02:03):
And I don't know, because I feel like she's probably
gonna do like a four thirty, and I do want
to get the sub three just because I just think
I might have to leave her. But we'll definitely do
a pasta dinner together the night before, and who knows, guys,
I might be feeling awful post pregnancy and I will
be running like a fine America.

Speaker 1 (02:02:20):
No no, no, no, no no no no. We're not sliding
out of.

Speaker 2 (02:02:23):
This, no. But I'm setting the goal for myself just
because I think it'll be really cool. And I also
the idea for me running the marathon is like I
want to show women that a that you can run
through your pregnancy, not just in a physical sense, but
in a sense that it's like set goals for yourself afterwards.
Having a kid doesn't mean that your life is over.
If you're a working woman, you're going to continue to work.
You know, I gig end of July. I'm having a

(02:02:45):
baby end of June. So we're getting back to it.

Speaker 1 (02:02:47):
Build a company, build a baby, and then you're gonna.

Speaker 2 (02:02:52):
You can have it all. Good for you, you can have
it all. Okay, So you know we've mentioned to sleep
a few times. I know you have your company absolute rest.
We got the merch on right now, So let's talk
look at that, right, can we love it? That made
it easy for me to be able to say absolute rest.
So let's talk about sleep and why it's so important.

Speaker 1 (02:03:12):
Okay. I want you to also know that I started
this company like four years ago, and this is the
first piece of merch I've ever got for this company.
I literally got it today, really, so yeah, there you go.
That's how good I am.

Speaker 2 (02:03:26):
What made you guys want to do merch? Finally?

Speaker 1 (02:03:28):
Well, it was like for four years I've been like
with my co founder Josh, I'm like, can I please
get like a shirt. I just like I have a
shirt or something and.

Speaker 2 (02:03:36):
The hot your brander, Now, what are you worrying?

Speaker 1 (02:03:39):
That's vitality, that is that is our performance blood work.

Speaker 2 (02:03:43):
Okay, wait, so you do a lot. So just actually,
before we get into absolute rest and sleep, what is
the breakdown of your businesses?

Speaker 1 (02:03:51):
All right, so follow along over here. My full time
job is I am the executive director of the Human
Performance Center at Parker Universe. So Parker is in the
Dallas area and we are building a sixty five thousand
square foot Human Performance Center. So my students and my team,
our brain Enhancement Center, all of our stuff is at

(02:04:13):
that place. So that's my academic job. That's my full
time job. So all the research and stuff we're doing
is out of Parker. Plenty of slots available for young
scientists and things like that. So come and join our team.
If you want to be in we mentioned our sleep study.
We are still actively enrolling women, so if you want
to be in that study, we're going to talk about
absol the rest of a second, but you can come

(02:04:33):
do that. So that is there. I have an education
company with my partners Colin and Dan called Biomolecular athlete.
This is where we do all of our you know,
education and online courses and events and speaking things like that.
Then I have my podcast perform is up. We have

(02:04:56):
actually filming season three raw. So but to anyone when
this is out and three might be outright only I
can only do a few episodes a year, So like you,
seasons better than the weekly.

Speaker 2 (02:05:07):
Then I have well we do we do weekly episodes,
but I go we do weekly episodes.

Speaker 1 (02:05:13):
Okay, okay, you said this is season two, right, this
is season two. Okay, okay, gotcha.

Speaker 2 (02:05:19):
But we've been posting one episode every single day for
the last.

Speaker 1 (02:05:21):
Oh my god, you guys are mania.

Speaker 2 (02:05:23):
Well yeah, but that's what we do. You have so
many businesses.

Speaker 1 (02:05:25):
I do like ten to twelve a year.

Speaker 2 (02:05:28):
Okay, that's great.

Speaker 1 (02:05:29):
Yeah, that's more than enough.

Speaker 2 (02:05:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:05:32):
Absolute. Rest of our sleep company, Vitality, as I mentioned, is
blood work for eye performance. So we've built lots of
cool running actually, so for example, we can differentiate between
overload overtraining over stress. There we can look at low
energy availability. You're probably famil with REDS no relative energy

(02:05:55):
deficit syndrome. And this is when classic endurance female athlete
thing of combination of either excessive energy output combined with
inefficient energy intake, which you're eating under eating, under fueling.
The technical thing is is reds on that we can
look at bone injury risk, we can look at training

(02:06:16):
injury risk. It can look at loads of these things
in blood work and so we don't have to don't
have to worry or guess and do things like that.
So you can get that stuff done or take your
current blood work and upload it into our system and
have it all look for those things. So that's all
like done for these types of communities. So it's like

(02:06:36):
we've actually done we were just did a thing with
Outside magazine, did the whole thing with them. We've done
lots of stuff in the running community. We're trying to
do something with I think at Chicago Marathon next year.
It want us to do something. It's like anyways, we
do lots of stuff with the endurance community.

Speaker 2 (02:06:51):
Yeah, I can tell it interesting, Like when we talk
about ultras, you kind of light up.

Speaker 1 (02:06:55):
Well, like it's it's like a to be honest, I'm
not the biggest like endurance sports don't give me my
jam for the most part, but ultras are gangster like
because those ultras can go from fifty to you know,
three fifty. I have a couple of friends and stuff
that do it, and it's fascinating because not that a

(02:07:18):
marathon is non fascinating, but the reality of it is like, Okay,
I'm gona run one hundred miles through the desert, Like
how is this physiologically possible? All the rules get thrown out,
like all the rules of what we learn extra physiology
class like just get thrown out the window. So it's
really cool scientifically, And then because of that, there's so

(02:07:38):
much history and the fact that you know, I don't
I don't know how many people run a marathon a year,
but millions of people will sign up for those. But
the ultras are like, it's like the UFC in nineteen
eighty five, We're like the history of ultras was it
is like kind of like behind the scenes, like what
the heck is going on with these people doing it

(02:08:00):
was like some of like counterculture punk rock, like hip
hop kind of thing. So I always am like more
gravitated to that because I'm like, oh, yeah, you're gonna
show up there. There's gonna be nine runners. It's not
gonna be organized, No one knows what the event like
this is like, it's kind of like that kind of
and it does.

Speaker 2 (02:08:16):
Like when you I'm not gonna be able to quote you,
but whatever you said before about it kind of, you know,
the rules of physiology almost don't apply. We were talking
to Os Pearlman last week, who's an ultra runner, and
this guy literally like gets off a plane and runs
like forty miles. It's crazy. But he was talking specifically
about the Spartathlon, which he did twice. The first time
he uh didn't complete it. The second time he did,

(02:08:37):
and he was saying how the first time when he
didn't complete it, it didn't come down to the fact
that he was faster than some of the people that
were behind him and did finish. You know, it came
down to the pure grit of wanting to cross that
finish line in the amount of time I guess that
they give you to complete it. But he was like,
I'm going back next year and I'm gonna finish it.

(02:08:59):
I mean, they're going to finish it or they're gonna
have to bring me out on a stretcher type of thing.
So I'm like, the ultra mentality is just I mean,
he's obviously an incredible runner. He can run for miles,
but that's yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:09:10):
You also see like there's the wild if you go
just like start dis lose yourself on the internet of
like endurance running feats and there's equivalent. Like I said,
Ross swam for around Iceland this year. We were like,
actually last year, we're tinkering with trying to swim from
Antarctica to South America, right, Like, so you just have

(02:09:32):
this group of people we are like what, like, what
do you even potentially I didn't think this is possible, right.
I forget the guy's name who ran across Africa, and
you're just like, okay, there's this. I forget the guy's name.
But a lot of times people call him like the
greatest endurance runner of all time. I think he ran
from Paris to Moscow in like nineteen forty and he

(02:09:54):
did it in like thirty days or some wild amount
of time where you're like, oh, yeah, he averaged again,
someone will fact check this one, but you're like, he
averaged forty miles a day for thirty days or something,
and you're like how. And so you see these people
who were like, Okay, you're gonna finish this marathon and
you're gonna be so exhausted for days and sore. And

(02:10:15):
then there are these people who do this day day,
Like there are people who will do one hundred and
fifty miles a week on average for years at a time,
and you're just like, you're just not the same species.

Speaker 2 (02:10:26):
Yeah, my friend ran Sam Benjigeep. He ran across the
US and did a marathon a day for I don't
even Jeremy would know how many days it was.

Speaker 1 (02:10:35):
But there's like a crazy group of people who, god,
what do they do again? In endurance community. I apologize
for missing all these numbers up, but there was this
group that there's a group of folks who were doing
something like, well, they doing fifteen miles a day. It
was like fifteen miles a day for seven years or
something like. And you're like, oh, I don't know what

(02:10:57):
on earth or it was something wild or.

Speaker 2 (02:10:59):
Is it the seven marathon seven continent, seven days.

Speaker 1 (02:11:02):
Okay, there's that one.

Speaker 2 (02:11:04):
I don't know what it's called.

Speaker 1 (02:11:05):
But yeah, there's there's like, of course runners, you know,
the Tara Maharu, the Sierra Madres, the Northern Mexico. This
is like what this is? Chris McDougall's Born to Run book, right,
I haven't read it about the Mexican Indians, who are
you know in Sandals running two hundred miles You're like, oh, okay.
And then they would show up to these US ultra events,

(02:11:27):
win them, and then go back and like no preparation,
no nothing, just like in Sandals and you're winning. I
think they're winning Leadville and things like that. Right.

Speaker 2 (02:11:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:11:36):
And then my friend Cam who had his book come
out last year and ran two hund fifty miles for
his book launch. I'm like, like I ran the mountain
with him, and I'm like okay, but then the like
how do you run two fifty? He doesn't train for it,
like he didn't do any He just like runs, right,
That's like those people my friend you know Ken right out? No,

(02:12:01):
oh Ken is wild? Can I apologize? I'm just reading
his book it's about to come out or it's out.
But he has his story. He was in Mongolia, signed
up for a race like flew to Mongolia, know nothing
about the track, nothing whatever. I think it was one
hundred or hundred like runs the thing. I think he
blows up and doesn't finish, goes back and does it
the next year. I'm probably combining like three stories Ken,

(02:12:24):
So you'll have to talk to Kennon Kennul.

Speaker 2 (02:12:26):
This would be a great person.

Speaker 1 (02:12:27):
God, he's in Boston. You have to get him on.

Speaker 2 (02:12:29):
I would love to.

Speaker 1 (02:12:31):
He is a maniac. He's running the next race against
the guy who beat him I think the year before,
and he's like seventy miles in or some nonsense like this,
and just like looks at the guy and goes, you
know what, the wildest thing is Like I just don't
get tired and like sprints away from the guy and
you're just like what happens at like thirty six hours in?
Or like again, I just made like five of Ken's
story into one. So I'm not sure the exactly, but

(02:12:53):
it's like that's the true is.

Speaker 2 (02:12:55):
Get him on because these people are so fascinating.

Speaker 1 (02:12:57):
Yeah, his book is unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (02:12:59):
Okay, yes, let's talk about sleep. Why is it important?

Speaker 1 (02:13:04):
Well, you will not find a single factor that provides
more positive benefit than sleep. Oftentimes will refer to this
as like your your biggest hammer for performance enhancement. You
can take this from the health perspective, you can take
this from the exercise you can take this from villa

(02:13:27):
to max. Like basically you could mental health. You could
pick your thing you find most interesting. And if we
put a this through ai IS and if you said,
give me them five largest predictors of success in this domain,
sleep is going to be on the top three list
of everything. You can't name a thing that's not there.

(02:13:47):
It's one of the few things that impacts your entire physiology.
It's one of the few things that all of us
have to do. It determines our acute state and our
chronic state. Right it determines our neurology, to our physiology, biochemistry,
to our subjective somatic experience, and everything in between. So
when we start to look at that, it's also one

(02:14:09):
of the factors that is continually getting worse. Right now,
you're looking at something like in the neighborhood of six
hundred million a year being spent on sleep, and for
the last sixty years, total sleep time has continued to decline.
We're spending more and more and more than we ever
have on sleep, but it it continues to get worse. Now,

(02:14:29):
this is different than things like metabolic health and obesity,
because we have, for the first time ever, started to
see signal. It's kind of working right, Like, it's not perfect,
and we have a lot more things to figure out,
but we've kind of figured out how to have a
bunch of people lose weight really fast. O bingo, yep.
Now we can leave that topic for now, But there's

(02:14:51):
there's some light in that journey. Sleep is just the opposite.
It's going down, and there's a lot of reasons for
that are obvious cell phones, entertainment, all that stuff. Others
like environmental factors are not so obvious to people, and
so we just can't get away with the idea of

(02:15:14):
sleep being a passive activity anymore, just like I just
sleep when I'm tired. Okay, great. It's just getting worse.
And we're seeing this now with dementia, with cancer, with
again filling your blank and saying okay, unchecked poor sleep
is a problem. Something like seventy to eighty percent of

(02:15:37):
clinical sleep disorders in the US will go undiagnosed. So
we have this problem that's continually getting worse. It's impacting
hundreds of millions of people world wide, billions people were wide,
and hundreds of millions in the US alone, and none
of the solutions are doing much of anything in fact summer,

(02:15:58):
arguably making it worse. So many years ago, I was
at kind of one of these like closed door behind
the scenes like performance things, and the topic of sleep
came up. And at the time, I had probably five
clients of mine who had north of three hundred million
dollar contracts in their sports right the highest we had,

(02:16:18):
the highest paid person at their position in four of
the major sports in the US. And so everyone basically
came to me and they're like, what's the magic sauce
to sleep? Right, Like what are you doing? And I'm like,
I can send him to a sleep hospital, or I
can give them like an or ring. And then there's
another guy there who did all the sleep I was

(02:16:40):
doing a lot of research with NASA and the Department
of Defense, and so then it was like, Okay, what
are you doing, dude, Like we have to have something
for the astronauts, and he was like, we're sending or
rings to space. And at that collect the moment, everyone
was like, okay, wait a minute, Like we have unlimited
budgets for all these endeavors, and the best we can
do is either or send you to this really weird

(02:17:02):
sleep hospital. So you like sleep on this bed normally, Kate,
don't worry. We're all gonna watch you from behind this mirror.
It's not your bed. We're gonna put wires all over you.
But just sleep normal. Or I can send you with
a awesome but consumer grade sort of wearable not there.
These are not solutions for like, this is not the

(02:17:24):
best the human race could come up with. So that
moment we built the company Absolute Rest and we said, okay,
like if we had to rethink sleep and we had
to get it right, and we had to help people
not to sleep more, because like sleeping more is not
even the right answer all the time. But if we
if we strip this down to the beginning and said,
what are all the factors that go into sleep? A

(02:17:47):
high quality sleep, effective sleep, being resilient, so be able
to get effective sleep when the baby is up, when
you're in different time zones, when you have to work
and have a four am meeting, because partners in across
the world and all those things, right, so how do
we resilient for our special forces and tactical and like

(02:18:08):
we it's not just like have a forty five minute
or three hour routine prior to bed and have my
room like, that's not what we do. It's like, what's
the real life team going to be? So we spent
a lot of time and we went through what is
every factor possible that goes into sleep? Then build tools
for that, Let's build testing for that, Let's build that
into a system. Let's build specific and cohesive systems to

(02:18:33):
minimize impacts or minimize disturbances and maximize impacts so that
people can get highly effective sleep. That's what absolute rest is,
and we're able to take that many many years and
we still have that program and build that into incredibly cheap,
affordable technology that can be used worldwide. So we have

(02:18:57):
a small piece of technology that has we can medically diagnose.
We have FTD clearance, we can medically diagnose sleep disorders
from the tip of your finger. We can we have
actually the only medically FDA cleared sleep quality measurements, so
it's not like a fake, made up algorithm like score there.
So that's effectively what appos at rest is. We have

(02:19:18):
the ability to come in and figure out how people
are sleeping with extreme precision, why they're sleeping that way,
and because of that, we know with high precision exactly
what to do for them and their physiology. So we're
taking measures of your heart and your legs and your brain.
We're measuring your room for dander paul and allergen Co

(02:19:41):
two toxins and above, we're looking at your psychological state.
We're doing a whole host of things. We can take
all of your previous wearable data and your travel schedule
and your biochemistry and your blood work and all that
and figure out not just how you're sleeping, but why
you're seeping that way, so that our path into solutions

(02:20:02):
becomes very specific and effective. That's absolute rest.

Speaker 2 (02:20:06):
Yeah, I mean it's a lot because I liked what
you said too. It's like, it's one thing to be sleeping,
but it's another thing to be getting proper REM sleep
right where you're actually in a deep sleep.

Speaker 1 (02:20:16):
Yeah. So REM is like you'll see REM on your wearables,
but the amount of time you spend in REM is
almost irrelevant. Okay, it's not actually what matters. It's one
of the reasons why those wearables are confusing. Maybe a
practical take home here would be if you're using like
a wearable, use it for accountability, use it for rough awareness,

(02:20:42):
use it for total sleep time, use it for things
like consistency, So go to bed at roughly the same time.
Do not do not use it for how many minutes
you spent in rem don't use it for how much
time you spent in deep sleep. Those things are going
to cause more problems than they help. Throw those out entirely.

(02:21:04):
Wearables like that are phenomenal for those few metrics where
people where these can cause problems, And there's actually something
now called orthosomnia. Orthosomnia is wearable tracker data induced clinical insomnia.
People become obsessed and compulse with their sleep data and
can actually induce worse sleep in some cases clinical insomnia.

(02:21:30):
So when I say, like, don't pay attention to that
level of detail, they're not accurate. Those stages don't matter anyways.
That's not how we get actually people to have effective sleep.
Not that they don't matter, but they don't matter. And
so I think my message in with this stuff is like,
understand the pros and the cons and then avoid the pitfalls.

(02:21:51):
So use them for accountability, use it to help you
be more consistent, use it to be more aware, but
then don't fall into the traps of trying to optimize
your rem or your de deeper any of those things.
That's where these things can create problems.

Speaker 2 (02:22:03):
Yeah, And I also feel like in one of the
topics that I had on my list of things that
I wanted to cover with you that we kind of
just covered is and we've talked about a couple times
throughout the interview. But wearables are also in my opinion,
they cause a lot of noise within the health space.

Speaker 1 (02:22:17):
A lot of noise, like all the noise, all the noise,
all the noise.

Speaker 2 (02:22:21):
And so I'm actually somebody that I don't really wear
wearables at all. I mean, I I wear my RR
rings sometimes. I actually was using it more so when
you know, when I'm not when I was trying to
get pregnant, and like when I'm not pregnant to track
kind of my cycle, and because it tracks your basal
body temperature, which can somewhat tell you or predict your period.
So I think for women it's good in that sense.

(02:22:43):
But yeah, even when it comes to like certain things
like tracking my workouts, I just feel like it's it's
a lot and sometimes it causes more stress than it
does pleasure and just enjoying the movement.

Speaker 1 (02:22:55):
And you know, we have fixed countless sleep problems by
simply taking wearables away from people. That's so funny countless
right where you're just like, Okay, this is not serving
the deity that you think it's serving, so walk them
away again. I'm not against any wearable or any tech.

(02:23:17):
What we are against is unconsciousness. I am against you
outsourcing your physiology to a cheap consumer wearable. I am out.
I am against outsourcing your physiology to an LM. I'm
not against using those things as a part of your process.
But that's as far as we want to go with

(02:23:38):
those things. So you would not have, you would not be.
You not do well as a scientist if your method
was just ingest all data and then figured out yourself.
That's not the scientific method, right, So we want to
use data, measurements, objective information intentionally, judiciously. We have a
specific question, so we use a specific thing, we understand

(02:23:59):
the pros and cons of it, and go from that.
Right now, this might sound really scary and intimidating to
the kind of the average listener, but it's not that.
It's really just simply saying, what problem are you trying
to solve? Right in your particular case, you wanted to
solve or at least be aware of fertility and temperature
is a phenomenal way. Wearables are very good at temperature.

(02:24:23):
It's pretty highly related to your cycle. Super specific question
appropriate technology, and you weren't I assume you were using
that to guide every decision you were making. You're just
trying to get a rough sense of where things were
absolutely appropriate use for that. Right, inappropriate uses would be
taking that and then like fill in the blank here.

(02:24:43):
Right now I'm taking this particular drug or medication based
on a low level of technology. Right, I'm gonna take
this peptide or change my training program because my wearable
said I need to recover today. Those are not good
uses of the technology because they're not actually built for that.

(02:25:05):
That's not the best. If you wanted to answer that question,
go get a different set of technology that was optimized
for that. It's just like what I said earlier about
don't get a view two max from your cell phone company, Like,
if you care that much about your heart rate, get
it from a company that is built for that. That's
a more appropriate use and then you can use more
informed decisions. So if you're just using them though to

(02:25:25):
like have a quick check in and kind of like,
because you're curious, then we have no concerns there. I'm
totally for that. It's the same thing. Like I said,
we will ingest. I'll give you an example. We can
ingest if you have any tracker wearable data. We can
look at tons of that stuff at absolute rest and
we can see things like, did you realize you get

(02:25:48):
forty more minutes of sleep in the winter? Why? Because
we have five years of data on you, now we
can actually start to see on average over the winter
you're getting form I'll really add no idea. We've seen
this with people who travel between like multiple destinations. They
have homes in two different spots or something, and we
could say, oh, do you realize actually you're getting more
sleep or more effective sleep in this home versus the
other one. Oh? Yeah, There's something called altitude induced apnea.

(02:26:12):
So these are people who have no sleep apnea at
sea level, but when they actually go to altitude, they
have altitude induced apnea and it can actually be super dangerous.
We've had clients like that who had no idea. They're like, no,
I don't have any of these things. When we see
in their data, we're like, yo, this is a huge
problem when you go to in this case Denver Vail
or something. Okay, great, So like there's tons of stuff

(02:26:33):
we can get out of those things that are really helpful.
But what you wouldn't want to do again is to
make a hundred dollars decision based on a dollar technology.
That's when we've run into problems. And given the fact
that we work with some of these people who again
one of them is actually not too far down the
road here, we have a multiple seven figure year budget

(02:26:53):
for his health and we're not going to use that
kind of decisions with that kind of technology. Same time,
how we started our conversation, however long ago, I actually
don't even any that you want. One of the strongest
predictors of effective sleep is it's called an RPE. It's
a question in the morning that says, how do you feel?

(02:27:17):
That will I'll predict almost any sleep technology.

Speaker 2 (02:27:19):
And when you say that, it's like how do you feel?
It's like what are the answers that you're supposed to
be giving yourself? Like I feel tired, I feel.

Speaker 1 (02:27:25):
Well rested, whatever you whatever, my point being.

Speaker 2 (02:27:30):
I feel pregnant.

Speaker 1 (02:27:31):
Your perception, yeah, actually is really accurate us Like it
do you have a nice sleep. Yeah, feel a right, great,
I feel terrible? Okay, well then you probably feel terrible, right,
you know, yes, totally, so you don't have to spend
a dollar.

Speaker 2 (02:27:49):
And so bad sleep is directly correlated to what.

Speaker 1 (02:27:53):
Everything like, what causes it or what happens.

Speaker 2 (02:27:55):
When you do it, what happens when you do it,
you know, short term and long term.

Speaker 1 (02:27:59):
Yeah, I mean short term wise. Actually, one of the
things that people misunderstanding about this one is it doesn't
actually cause that many detriments to performance. No one sleeps night,
no one sleeps great the night before the race. You're fine, Like,
not a big deal. We deal with this all the
time with like our performers. Yeah, I know, jet lag trap.

(02:28:20):
It's fine, Like you're gonna go compete, right, like we
got athletes and all over the Not a big deal, right.
What you will see is potentially a slight cognitive drop.
From that, you'll see some metabolic changes, right, So you'll
see but fasting glucose is a little bit higher, cores
are a little bit higher, like you're in a little
bit more of a sympathetic drive state, so HRV will
be lower. Resting huart ate a little bit higher irritability.

(02:28:44):
Things like that might be a little bit king so like,
acute wise, that's what's gonna happen. I don't care that
much about it.

Speaker 2 (02:28:51):
Though.

Speaker 1 (02:28:52):
For the most part, you can get through it. You
can be tough, Like we can do a few things
for the acute day we work turned about though more
is like what's the pattern over seven days, thirty days,
months to sort of years. Right, those become the problems
because that's when you can get into a slew of
physiological consequences that you don't want to be in. Right,

(02:29:14):
And this is when we start to things see things
like there are there are direct ties to things like
leftin and grellinless sleep, and these are the things that
control your appetite and say tidy, so how hungry you
feel versus how satiated you feel, And so there's a
nasty feedback loop with obesity when you have a poor
night of sleep. It's very intuitive. Your body says, we

(02:29:38):
are low energy. Put me in a high energy state.
So you're going to seek out higher calorie ingestion, right.
This oftentimes comes in the form of more energy dense foods,
oftentimes more carbohydrates. Nothing wrong with carbohydrates of course. But
when we're eating more than we need on the bike, right,

(02:29:59):
So because of that, you're in a high energy you're
in a need for energy. You oftentimes will feel fatigued,
which means you will oftentimes say like, I'm too tired
to train today. So you eat, you ate more than
you needed, you didn't exercise. So because of that, body
composition continues to get worse. When you start adding physical
weight to the body, you see things like fluid shifting.

(02:30:21):
So when you lay down at night, the shift the
fluid shifts up into your neck, causing mild to moderate
or even severe apneat body. Body composition can start pressing
on it. It starts pressing on organs, it starts moving
all around. That causes then more sleep. That worse sleep
then continues to mess with grael and leftin and continues
to put you in that cycle. There, so we have

(02:30:41):
a little bit of a chicken and egg where it's like, okay,
The most research in terms of interventions effective improvements for
sleep is obesity. Like by far, the biggest thing you
can do if for your sleep, if you're overweight, is
to get to a healthy body weight. That's the most
research is deeministity in those areas. There's lots of other
things you can do on that journey, but that'll be

(02:31:03):
the same thing. At the same time, one of the
nasty effects of bad sleep is you're much more likely
to gain weight. So it's hard, right, we see, again
I mentioned earlier, you'll see a massive increase in risk
of dementia Alzheimer's not you know, for this particular crowd,

(02:31:25):
I don't know, but the one that jumps off the table.
There's been a couple of studies that have been done
on things like shift work, people that work you know,
that three to eleven PM kind of thing, and you
depending on the paper you pull, you'll see something between
like a five to ten x increased risk of erectile dysfunction. Okay,

(02:31:46):
so like that tens to grabbed the men's attention. They're like, whoa,
Even now these are people that are sleeping the same duration,
but the circadian shift has been moved, and so now
you're like, when you're ten xing the risk of something
like that, that's not an unimportant number. So we could
play the game of a physical performance cognitive performance long
term and then like basically any system you care about

(02:32:07):
your immune system. You go from on average seven hours
of sleep to seven and a half hours of sleep,
you can some of the papers will show up to
a four to five x increase and likely of getting
a cold, urinary track infections upward, respiratory infections like these
all I go up right now, We don't need to
scare people. You don't need to have eight and a

(02:32:30):
half hours to sleep every night. You don't need to
be a fragile human being with again a two hour
nightly routine and one night of bad sleep and you
just wreck yourself mentally, like, that's not the spot we
want to be in. The spot we want to be in, though,
is saying anything you probably care about. If we can
get you a little bit better and sleep, that'll make

(02:32:51):
a difference. So when we go to like the endurance
running world, generally you'll see things like time trial performance,
time exhaustion VO two MAX. You know, you're talking about
like three to five percent elevations when you go from
good to great sleep, which is you know, it's not
five x ing anything, but you're like, man, if I

(02:33:13):
can move the needle a little bit in those areas
like that, that's the edge kind of that I'm looking for.

Speaker 2 (02:33:20):
So on the topic of sleep, I know you've talked
about this before. Why is it so important for us
to sleep with our door open versus closed?

Speaker 1 (02:33:28):
Well, great question, It may not be. That example is
a way of conceptualizing the fact that your environment plays
a potentially large impact on your overall sleep. We published
a review article Federika Conti works in my lab led
this earlier last year. That article is free and in

(02:33:50):
that we walk through the environmental factors that directly impact sleep,
and so anyone can go download that and we walk
through everything from lighting, temperature, sound, and we give specific recommendations,
So keep your lighting below this level, keep the sound
below this level. All that so individual details of all
those about there's like nine or ten factors in there.

(02:34:12):
You can see all those numbers directly in that paper,
and we paid a lot of money to have that
open access so that anyone could go download it anywhere,
so you can potentially link to that in your show
notes or something and people can go there. Sure, grab that. Okay, great,
So to answer your question directly, there, when you take
a breath in, you're inhaling oxygen, you're exhaling CO two

(02:34:32):
plants do the exact opposite, right, They breathe in CO two,
they release oxygen, they keep the carbon. That's how they grow.
We ingest our carbon by eating plants and animals. They
do a little bit different amazing. So when you're in
your bedroom, you're exhaling CO two and you're not breathing
very heavy when you're sleeping, right. You may be breathing
heavy in your bedroom at other times, but we'll leave

(02:34:54):
that aside for now. And so you're not breathing very heavy.
The two is kind of forming a little cloud over
top of your mouth, very rarely concerned. One thing we
have seen primarily from industry, like industrial research, is when
CO two levels rise in a room, this becomes really

(02:35:17):
dangerous and specifically for cognitive function. So we know that
if you get like three thousand to five thousand parts
per million of CO two in a room, you'll see
everything from arithmetic, mathematics, decision making, memory recall start to
go down. Because what ends up happening is the concentration
gets so high you start rebreathing some of that CO two.

(02:35:41):
This pushes you and I'm skipping some physiology steps here,
but this pushes you into more of a sympathetic drive.
It's the same thing as if you hold your breath
because your COEO two consternations start to rise. Right if
you actually look at the psychology research, one of the
classic ways in labs that we will do panic attack
research is bring people into a laboratory and you'll give

(02:36:01):
them CO two because you're gonna do a panic attack
that way, or symptoms of panic by doing that. So
it's very well documented physiology CO two goes up and
this is associated with more of that. It's easy then
to understand that if CO two levels are really really high,
and you're in the exact same situation which I would
take you in a laboratory to induce a panic attack,

(02:36:22):
that you probably can't sleep very well. Gotta be tough
to do, right. So the door example you gave was
if you are in a room and you don't have
a great ventilation, and particularly if there are other living
beings in that room, so you're sleeping partner, you know,
your child, or your spouse or partner, your dog, your parakeet,

(02:36:42):
your chameleon, like all the things are in the room,
they're all doing the same thing. They're breathing in auxygen
and they're exciting the CO two. So over six to
seven to ten hours, that concentration of CO two can
rise the vast majority of the time, no big deal.
But if this number starts six seed nine hundred parts
per million, probably realistically it probably needs to be above

(02:37:03):
two thousand or twenty five hundred for it to really
start to matter. But the line you'll start to see
in the lease search is around nine hundred parts f million.
This is significantly associated with difficulty falling asleep, difficulty staying
asleep next day, with freshness quality sleep. Like you pick
your metric and you'll see a sharp decline in those
when CO two levels rise. So the way around that

(02:37:26):
open up your window if you can. If that's not
possible because you live in Brooklyn and you know there's
if you open up the window, there's too much pollution
that comes in, or there's too much noise or whatever
the case is, then the other easy solution is open
up your door so at least the ventilation in your
room can improve. So that's kind of where that comes from.

Speaker 2 (02:37:47):
And you know, again this is going back to like
one of my favorite things about talking to you is
it's again it's not something that you have to do immediately,
but it's looking at certain health practices over the grand
scheme of things and all shit years and over your
lifespan to optimize for how you feel.

Speaker 1 (02:38:01):
At eighty though. I think like the way that I
think I'd like to frame this a lot.

Speaker 2 (02:38:07):
Mak.

Speaker 1 (02:38:09):
One framing I've found helpful is on aggregate. Like what
you're doing on aggregate matters, so on average over time
more often than not. This allows for daily imperfections. This
allows for Okay, maybe you drop the ball for a
few months, maybe you had a kid and it's been

(02:38:30):
three or four years. I don't really give a shit.
If you are amazing for fifty five out of sixty years,
you're gonna be amazed. Like it doesn't right, this is
a blip.

Speaker 2 (02:38:41):
Wait, I have a question, and then I kind of
want to start getting to just just wrapping up everything
that we talked about. But Brian Johnson, we had him
on last year, we went on a run together. His
whole philosophy is never die. He wants to live forever,
and he is somebody that doesn't now in life make
exceptions like he pretty much as far as we know,
as far as he says, does everything perfectly when it

(02:39:03):
comes to recovery, sleep, exercise, eating everything. What do you
think about Brian Johnson's mentality? Never die?

Speaker 1 (02:39:11):
So I know Brian very well. You can go if
you'd like, you can go see the full training program
I'm built for Brian he released. Did he put it
up there? So his exercise program and all that stuff,
you can go. I talked for hours about why built it,
how he built a forum, all those things. Every interaction
ever had with Brian. He seems to be as genuine
as his out there. I don't think personally that's the

(02:39:37):
approach that I would ever take. Brian wants to be
an icon. That's great, amazing there, so value judgments on
how he lives his life is not important. If you're
asking kind of about like what he's doing in his
methodology to get there, those are more interesting questions we

(02:39:57):
can have.

Speaker 2 (02:39:58):
But I'm curious if you think then never die, and
that's interesting. I didn't know that you built his training regimen.
I did.

Speaker 1 (02:40:04):
Got to be clear, I don't think he does it anymore.
He's modified it and changed it since I built for him.

Speaker 2 (02:40:08):
But I saw a couple of your videos together which
I thought was cool, and just like some of the
exercises he did, even for short form of like optimal
movements or whatever, the one thing that you can do
every day that blah blah blah, but then never die
thing you know as somebody that studies humans over long
periods of time.

Speaker 1 (02:40:25):
So look, you don't do anything important by being by
not being bold. If you're asking, like, do I think
he will die? Yes? I do. Do I think he's
aging in reverse? Now I don't. No, I don't do.
I think he's giving himself every shot to live as
long as possible, as much as we know scientifically. And

(02:40:48):
I'm not saying anything I haven't told him many times
I would do some of his things a little bit differently.
But no, I mean I think he's gonna die like
the rest of us will. I don't think he's gonna
to two hundred and fifty years old or two hundred
or even one fifty. But he's to me, always been

(02:41:08):
a really nice guy and I hope he does that.
Said why, I don't have as much irritation at him
as many people do. He's transparent about what he's doing,
and I'm kind of a guy where I'm like, as
long as you're not misinterpreting what you're doing, not lying
about it, and not deceiving people. Okay, so he's fairly transparent,

(02:41:31):
and again knowing him the background, like what I've seen,
he's doing exactly what he's saying. Second thing is the
human race needs people like Brian Johnson. They need someone
to do the thing that the rest of us don't
want to do, and the rest of us are saying,
that's a waste of your life, just like like we
needed Dean to go do those races, like I need

(02:41:51):
I'm blinking our name, but Dana who came back and
went the Olympics and swimming after having three kids or
something at age four, Like, we need those people to go.
You're crazy, You're wasting your life, You're doing it wrong,
because we need to see what's physiologically possible.

Speaker 2 (02:42:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:42:07):
I think it's inspiring, it's entertaining. And the bunch people
hate it, that's fine, all the criticisms, sure, but yeah,
I think it's rad where like I wouldn't live my
life like that. I don't. I have other people who
are equally as interested in living for forever, but they
have a different philosophy of it. But to me, as
long as he's being honest, he's not hiding stuff, I

(02:42:30):
don't care if he's selling things, it doesn't bother me
at all. And if he wants to live his life
like that, because the reality of it is, we have
people that will go live in the Himalayan mountains by
themselves for decades, and we call the monks and they
quote unquote waste a whole life meditating and never speaking.
And we cherish that Brian is wasting his life because

(02:42:54):
he doesn't enjoy anything besides his regimen. How's that different.
I don't want to do one of those things. I
want to go buy myself on a mountain, never talk
to anybody.

Speaker 2 (02:43:03):
I don't want I see him out there with parasoltans.
Sometimes I know she's into longevity. Two. No, I just
had to ask because it's cool.

Speaker 1 (02:43:10):
And Brian has given up dancing because he rolled his
ankle one time. So a little bit of fun, but
not too much.

Speaker 2 (02:43:17):
What are the three biomarkers that we should actually care about.

Speaker 1 (02:43:21):
It would be impossible for me to boil it into three.
There's too many parts of physiology, there are too many
differences between individuals. There's also the confusion of what a
biomarker is and what it means. So, how tall you
are as a biomarker? Right, your testosterone is a biomarker.

(02:43:42):
I could take measurements of your brain, those are biomarkers.
Anything that gives a measurement of any biology is a biomarker.
And so I realize these are easy ways for people
to conflate expertise, like, oh, biomarker sounds amazing. The size
of your shoe is a bio And so I think
a better way to think about this would maybe be

(02:44:04):
something like, do you have the nodes of human health
that are taken care of?

Speaker 2 (02:44:10):
So?

Speaker 1 (02:44:11):
Are you managing stress? Are you eating high quality foods?
Are you having a reasonable physical activity practice? Are you
free of disease or infection? Do you have a mental
health or community or sense of purpose? If you have
something in kind of all those broad areas, and you

(02:44:32):
could pick whatever individual measurement from those areas you would
want to do. And this can range from free, scientific
validated questionnaires all the way up to tens of thousands
of dollars of scientific goal standard measurements. But as long
as you have something that's kind of crossing all of
those domains, you're probably going to be really good spot to

(02:44:52):
make sure that there's no massive performance anchor that's putting
undue stress in your physiology.

Speaker 2 (02:44:57):
Okay, Andy, we have covered so much today. I don't
even know how long we've been going for, Like, we've
covered a lot. You know, we've talked about so many
different topics. But if you could just you know, summarize
for us the key things you want people to understand
about our physiology and our fitness, Like, what are the
key principles you want people to understand coming out of

(02:45:18):
this conversation.

Speaker 1 (02:45:19):
Yeah. Number one would be regardless of your goal, finding
a system that allows you to be consistent is absolute priority.
Anyone who's ever been successful has that. How I've gotten
there can have infinite levels of variation, but they've been
consistent with some approach. That's number one. Number two, we
don't want to make perfect be the enemy good. Meaning,

(02:45:43):
if you're doing something and it's successful and this is
a high health activity, I want you to keep doing
it always and I don't want you to ever be
discouraged by thinking that your program is somehow wrong or
that it is reason to stop it all only not
how it works. Number three, individualization does matter. Your preferences,

(02:46:06):
your abilities, your backgrounds, your unique physiology, your biomolecular signature.
All these things matter. But we shouldn't group direct answers
based on age or sex or limb length or any
other thing like that. All of that should be in
a mosaic that paints you into your unique situation. But
we don't categorize people because they have a chromosome that's

(02:46:29):
different than other than the ultimately means they can't eat
a certain way or they can't train a certain way.
That's not sensical. Another take home I would say here
is develop a couple of things to pay attention to
and focus on one or two things at a time
for several months, so whether this is a new eating

(02:46:53):
style or a behavior or a habit or a training approach,
and give it for to five to six to eight
to ten weeks, and then if you want to make
modifications you can. Where people can kind of get into
tricky spots in this field is when they change a
bunch of stuff all the time. And now we don't
have enough consistency to run a good experiment to say

(02:47:14):
did it work, did it not work? We have no
idea what's going on, and that can lead to frustration.
It can lead to guesswork. It can lead to progress
sometimes and then no progress, and we can't figure out
the rhythm, like why do I feel amazing some days
and then not the others And it seems to be
totally inconsistent. There's something there, There is something that's happening.

(02:47:34):
It looks like it's random, but it's probably not very random.
You just having to put your thumb on what exactly
is happening. And the way to do that is going
to drill things down, quiet the noise, don't use as
much data streams, and kind of figure out what is
the one thing that's given me signal here and find
that out. So this journey to do it yourself health

(02:47:56):
and fitness can be as complicated as you want. So
my last message here would be hopefully from this conversation
everyone has taken away some actionable insights that are free
or low cost or no cost that everyone can use.
And if that means you want to do one thing

(02:48:18):
because all this stuff was like actually made things way
too complicated for you. Simplify the basics. Work for the
best in the world. Great if you're the other type
of person though, who goes there's actually like too much
noise going on, like I need to have specific data streams.
We can go crazier, we can go to that mid range,
we can go all the way to the ends, and

(02:48:39):
we can go nuts in this field. So if you
need more clarity, if you are that baker, hopefully you
got some stuff out of here that you can use
and be more effective with that data stream. Or if
you're the cook and you're like, yo, can you boil
it down to like three things, Well, hopefully at some
point in the conversation you picked up one or two
things that you can try, and that's as complicated as

(02:49:02):
you need to get. So need not be super complicated
to live a better life.

Speaker 2 (02:49:07):
Thank you so much for joining us for a post
friend Hi.

Speaker 1 (02:49:09):
Today Andy, my players, this is fun.

Speaker 2 (02:49:16):
Hi guys, Kate here, Thank you so much for being here.
You are truly a real one for making it through
that episode with me. I think it was our longest
episode yet and I'm feeling so inspired today. We learned
that movement isn't just physical, It's one of the most
powerful tools we have for brain function, longevity and showing
up better in our lives. Andy is one of the

(02:49:37):
best in the world at translating science into something that
we can actually use, So if you learn something new today,
share this episode with a friend and make sure you're
following the show so that you never miss a post
run high episode. I'll see you guys next week.

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What the Science Actually Says About Women's Health | Dr. Andy Galpin

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}What the Science Actually Says About Women's Health | Dr. Andy Galpin