Kathleen Hanna

New York Times best-selling author, musician, and activist Kathleen Hanna discusses her new memoir, Rebel Girl: My Life as a Feminist Punk. In a special one-on-one with Questlove, Kathleen also details her passion for records, complicated views on fame and success, and the power of No. In their first extended chat, Questlove also shares the profound impact Hanna had on The Roots by way of the late Richard Nichols and explains how she helped influence Black Lily. This conversation is spirited as two like-minded souls connect.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
I'm here this Quest Love. You know, ever since that.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Willow episode, I gotta say, I'm kind of liking this
more intimate one on one thing. Nothing against the Supreme fan,
but you know, these are kind of fun for me,
and this one especially holds dear. I will basically say
that this conversation is probably thirty years overdue. I'm almost

(00:39):
certain that our Yesterday doesn't even know the silent impact
she's had on my entire organization.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
She'll find out right now, Right Surprises.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
The Bell Right surprise as a bell Our guest is legendary,
of course, name it bikini Kill. Latigue of the Julie
Willing pioneered the Riot Girl movement. Magazine publisher, poet, fan
of cheesy seventies variety shows like Myself, spouse of my

(01:13):
very first online scrabble rival, New York Times bestselling author
of the memoir Rebel Girl, My life as a feminist punk.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
You know, if you are a fan of the show or.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
You're familiar with my history, she probably doesn't know it,
but she was the seed that helped start the Black
Lily movement that I guess I'm famous for or associated with.
From my side of the fence, What can I say?
This is long overdue, Kathleen Hannah, thank you for talking

(01:49):
to me. I know your husband's going to be upset
because I know he feels like I'm having everyone but
him on the show. He will get his turn. He
will get his turn. How are you today.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
I'm good. I'm so thrilled to be talking to you.
It does feel like a thousand years overdue. Like I
feel like you're like Superman and we're always you know,
you're like Clark kentying out on me, Like I'm like
where he was just here, Like I feel like we've
had that for like the past thirty years.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
I lived a life where I used my work and
my occupation to avoid life.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
And oh really.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
Is that? How come You've like done like three thousand
things and you're like the total like you know, renaissance
man goal for every other artist.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
I mean, you know, on paper, it's nice, but.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
You know, I've gone through uh kind of a life
transformation in the last three years where I now know
the power of no and vacation and you know, make
time with my girlfriend, and I think date night, you know,
game night like things that have nothing to do with working,
which you know is nothing but distract So let me

(03:01):
just let you know. And you know, I work on
a talk show, and oftentimes I know that, especially when
guests write books or memoirs, I'm almost certain that they
are under the impression that the person interviewing them has
not read the entire piece or the entire book. Usually

(03:22):
like a producer and an assistant will do such a thing.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
This is absolutely not the case.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
I probably finished your book in a record like six
days and was rather surprised at how parallel our journey
from here to there sort of ran. There are a
lot of times in the book in which I was like,
oh wow. At times, a person thinks that they go
through something alone, and I was one of those former

(03:51):
people pleasers that sort of made career decisions based on
the perception of other people or their approval. You know,
what happens if we signed this label? Oh god, what
happens if I do this commercial? What happens if I'm
seeing with this particular You know, I actually like the
work of Blah Blah Blah, who's massively popular, but I

(04:14):
can't be seen with them in public cause people think
i'm alf you know. Yeah, every aspect of your story
really really impressed me, which is weird because I mean,
I want to talk about it so much, but I
also don't want to alert it for your audience that
hasn't read it yet or you know, make this the

(04:35):
paraphrase version of it. So I'll figure out ways to
ask you specific questions. But I you know, I want
to start off this episode by letting our audience know
that this this book's a must.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
Read, an absolute must read. I'll start by asking you
what is the process.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Now, I'm a person that's written nine books, but even
in writing those nine books, I.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
Realized it's like just nuts.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Well, no, no, no, I'm gonna tell you. Well, the thing
is is that I journal kind of to keep my sanity.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, I know me too. I journal every day.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Right, and then now that their social media, like oftentimes
I'll overspill in a post, and if I do it
too much, then yeah, my publisher is gonna call and
be like, hey, dog, can you not give the milk
away for free? Like all that you did in the
last three posts could been in the book and usually

(05:30):
that's the point where they're telling me, like, channel that
energy into your contract fulfillment instead of giving it away
on Instagram. And one of the last things that my
ex told me was, you know, I can't wait for
the day in which you write your real first book.

(05:51):
And I was like, well, I got nine already, Like
what else can I write about?

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Ouch?

Speaker 2 (05:56):
And she said, come on, now that she's like writing
about records and breakbeats and you know art, that's your distraction.
You know when you're going to write the real book.
So I'll ask you, when.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
Am I going to write the real book?

Speaker 1 (06:11):
No? No, no, no, oh my god, no, But I
want to know if.

Speaker 3 (06:14):
There's another real book behind that real book, it's going
to be really scary. It's like a horror movie. I'll
just make a horror movie.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
So there's two books I've read this year that were memoirs,
musical memoirs. One of them nicely danced around specifics to
sort of protect relationships or maintain them. Yours was very
blatant and very honest on how you felt about specific people.

(06:40):
What is the first step in realizing that you're going
to overspill and share with us your life, and how
does that affect the people that you write about?

Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, I never thought about it. I just sat down
and wrote. I really just sat down and wrote and
wrote and wrote. It was really for me. I didn't
think about an audience at all, Like when I first
started writing, which was like, you know, years ago, and
I knew it was a book, Like I wrote the
introduction like ten years ago and then ended up I
changed it all, of course, but I was just sort

(07:14):
of writing it a little bit, and I didn't have
a publisher or whatever. And then finally I was like,
I just need to do this to get to the
next stage of my life, you know how like there's
different like things that you've made that you're known by,
Like you know, people walk up to you on the
street and they're like, you know, this is the thing,
and it's annoying because you're like, I don't want to
talk about that. Actually, my real love is directing, or

(07:36):
my real love is you know what I mean. It's
like you get known as you know, if you're in
a commercial and someone's like you were in that VW
commercial for the rest of your life, and it's like
I was sort of like really trapped in this like
riot girl thing and like the like you wrote the
smell saxteen Spirit line or you know other like weird

(07:57):
mini scandals I was involved in, and I was like,
you know, I just I don't want to like not
talk about that anymore. And part of that is me
getting over stuff that I never dealt with, and so
I really kind of wrote it just to get it
all out on the page, and I wasn't I knew
that I got to edit it later. You know, I'm
an adult. I've done like a lot of projects, so
like I know, I'm not writing this and everybody's going

(08:18):
to see it, and having the same confidence that I
had with it that I have with my journal, where
it's like no one's going to read this, so I
can write whatever I want. And I had fun with it.
I was like I would think of a title like
Benjamin Franklin's Glasses and then you know, you have like
catchphrases in your life that you used to talk to
your friends with, where like for me, like the smells
Like teen Spirit story, which is like I wrote Kurt

(08:41):
smells like teen Spirit on his wall and then he
used as a song Like people have asked me about
that a lot, right, and so it's I started calling
it the you know smells like Benjamin Franklin's glasses, and
I would be like, it's like I found Benjamin Franklin's
glasses in the trash. And everybody's like, ooh, there's the
girl who found Benjamin Franklin's you know glasses in the trash.
And I was like, I'm actually like a feminist artist

(09:01):
who's been working for thirty five years and like, I
have a lot of projects I'd love to talk to
you about, but they're like, but tell me about Benjamin
fraid tell you. So I didn't specifically actually write that
story like to you know, get people off my back
or whatever, but I did write everything, like everything, and
then I edited it later and that's when I thought

(09:22):
about it and I changed. I did change names. I
changed almost everybody's names unless they were in a positive light,
and so they were okay, okay. And there were people
there's a particular person who who is really messed up
in the book and basically commits crime and against me,
and uh, I called that person and said, I'm going
to tell this story and you need to get a

(09:44):
therapist and be prepared. I changed your name, but some
of our friends are going to know its you. So
I want you to prepare yourself and I don't want
to make kill themselves, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
What was his reaction?

Speaker 3 (09:56):
You know, I wish I wouldn't have called. That's all
I can say. I mean, he was like, he's like,
you know, it's your story and you can tell it.
I can't stop you. But it was like a big
pity party of things in his life that have gone
wrong and that you know, he had a whole new
story for why the bad incident happened. I was like,
I can't rewrite it. I already wrote it. So the

(10:16):
story answer is I didn't think about it. I got
my butt in the chair and I worked, and then
I would have these long periods of time where it
just worked and worked and worked and work, and then
I would have periods of time where I had a
nervous breakdown and went to crisis counseling, like for three
days a week, and then I would get back to work.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
That's what I was going to ask you, because the
thing is is that unlike my movement, you know, the
Neo Soul movement, both of our movements, I would say
start with the the quote the idea of I'm certain
there was an actual Seattle movement or Northwest movement, but I,

(10:52):
you know, pretty much even I knew that we were
responding to the idea of what we thought the Seattle
movement was things move on and things subside and things.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Are in your rear view mirror.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
How did it feel to have to unpack that period
in your life because like, literally chapter after chapter, it's
one thing to keep a band together, but it's a
whole other thing where you also have to keep yourself
together and protect your sanity, but also like organize a movement.

(11:28):
And I'll say the main difference between you and I,
luckily because of the development of the Internet. For me
at least ninety eight ninety nine, you know, I thought
it was all unique, like the only person in music
who allows this fan base to curse him out or
criticize them or say whatever the fuck they want to.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
But that's contained in like this world on the Internet.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
Whereas because you're eight years before you know, you're dealing
with newsletters and actual people coming you've essentially a pre
social media pioneer, although it wasn't invented yet because you
came out so damn early.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
But all the things that happened, like.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
The idea of people spewing out their opinions mid show,
you know, all the toxic energy you had to have.
You're juggling like four or five things at once, and
you're learning lessons. You're learning lessons about feminism, you're learning
lessons about yourself, you're learning lessons about your health.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
Like all these things.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
But to really put yourself in that position to go
back and revisit how taxing was that on you today,
to revisit those periods the.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
Way I would say when I would get home from work,
because I would be like I just created my face
with the cheese grater for eight hours. That's what it
felt like. I felt. I really felt. I was like
my face was blank, I was dead behind the eyes,
like I was going in and out of being present.
Like it was awful. Awful, but so is crisis counseling.

(13:08):
I mean, And it was basically like I was. I
saved myself a lot of therapy because I actually sat
there and wrote down stuff I'd never even admitted to myself,
and a lot of it didn't There's three hundred extra pages.
It didn't end up in the book because it originally
was like Ryacral Hobbit and they were six enter pages long.

(13:30):
You might get it in a different form. But yeah,
a lot of a lot of the stories I cut
out were because they were more visual, Like it was
like that you had to be their kind of stories
where it's like, you know, we're on acid and we're
like running towards the sky in the park. Looks like
he's juggling. We're like, it's a clown. And then we
get close to him and we're like, oh shit, he
has not a ninja. It's a ninja turn around, like

(13:51):
you know what I mean, Like it doesn't really work
in a book. Yeah, it was horrible, That's all I
can say. It was absolutely awful because it was like
excavating all of the stuff that you know. So I
had also suppressed and pushed down to keep going to
the next project, and that was part of the reason
why I worked so much, you know what I mean.
And I didn't turn out like a kazilion albums, but
I was constantly doing projects. Even when I went through

(14:12):
a long period while I was pretty sick, I was
still like I wrote a pilot for a TV show
and you know, I could tell you twenty other things
that I did while I was still ill, because I
just had even if it was from bed, if I
had one good day, I had to use it. And
part of that is just like I grew up as
a kid and I felt like I was really a zombie,
Like I had to turn myself off to live in

(14:34):
my household. And so when I kind of came to
when I moved out when I was seventeen, I was
like living with vengeance. Like I was like, I have
to pack as much stuff into this one life as possible.
And also all the people you know that I've lost
along the way to like drugs, suicide aids, you know,

(14:56):
it's hard not to feel like you're living for them,
Like you know, every day you have a part of
their character with you that comes out and you're like,
I want to let that part of this person shying today,
you know, Like, but then that can become this weird,
like toxically positive bullshit that then you have to contend
with that. So I just try to be in the
present as much as humanly possible, and writing the book,

(15:18):
the whole point of it was to get me into
the present, was to be like I'm going to grapple
with this thirty five years or even you know, my
whole life. I'm going to grapple with that. And then
I'm going to be like I did that and now
here I am. And sure I still like have bad
memories of stuff or like whatever. But the thing that
was really kind of miraculous was I just realized how
much I lead with the negative, you know what I mean,

(15:39):
like a lot. It was so easy. It wasn't easy,
but it was like I went straight for the juggler.
Like I was like, I went to all the worst
moments in my life really quick. And part of it
was because I needed to. I really needed to do that.
But then I was like, whoa, no one's going to
read this. This is going to make people just throw up,
Like I got to put some joy in here. And

(16:00):
then I just started being like they started popping out
like you know, Jack in the Box style, like just
like joy joy joy, And I was like, oh yeah,
that guy in Minneapolis who like said I'll record your
band in my garage. I love what you're doing and
I and that made me feel like accepted in the
punk scene, you know what I mean, Like and It
was just a tiny gesture from this one person that

(16:20):
probably they didn't even I don't think that guy even
read the book or knows or remembers. Right, this guy
to Max said I'll record you, and you know, recorded
us and my first touring band, Vivchnevl, And it meant
the world to me, you know, remembering the first time
that I heard my vocals sounding good in headphones, Like literally,

(16:42):
as I was writing it, I was remembering it for
the first time, and I was sitting in that garage
listening to my voice with reaverb on it and going, oh,
my god, this is what I want to do forever. Right,
What a gift that I had to go through. I
had to kind of like, you know, dig myself out
with a shovel. I kept seeing in my head when
I was writing, like a kind of a newly dug grave,

(17:04):
like the soil and stuff, and I felt like my
hand was just sticking out and I had to reach it,
pull my hand and get me out of the grave.
And once I dug myself out, I was like, oh,
look at all this awesome stuff that happened that maybe
you didn't fully appreciate in the moment, and I'm able
to appreciate it now, and in a lot of cases
I did. I had a great time, like I've had

(17:25):
an awesome life.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
What I do want to know is, and I know
that your story is your story alone, but when you
decide to do the journey man of going in the
punk scene or the ND rock scene, it's doing what
is perceived as you know, major labels and big business
and all that stuff. Is this typical of what one

(17:54):
can expect in terms of do it yourself? It's twenty
four hours a day. You might have a flat tire
the next day. You don't know whose couch you're going
to sleep on. Next week you might have bubblegum for dinner.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Like, is that still.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
The modus operandi now in twenty twenty four?

Speaker 1 (18:12):
Is?

Speaker 2 (18:13):
Or did you pioneer it so well that now life
is easier for those who are sort of in the space.

Speaker 3 (18:22):
I think it's changed in that I don't really know
because I'm not twenty right now, so I have no idea.
But we do have really amazing opening bands that have
been playing for us on tour, and they'll sleep on
people's couches. I mean usually you know, they'll sleep in
like a Holiday and Express or a lat Quinta, but
or like.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Would have been five Star does yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
Yeah, because they had their like a name brand, so
you could trust the towels. But no, it's like they
they'll sleep on to them. I think it's different, and
it's not every single band, but like this one amazing band,
Sweeping Promises, we were touring with, and it's like I
think it's also you know, post COVID whatever, people are
really excited to see each other and so right now

(19:01):
at this moment, it's a different touring experience where it's like, oh,
I'm so excited I get to go to Kansas because
I have these two people that I've been writing to
on the internet that are going to be there and
we're going to hook up and hang out afterwards. I
don't think, and I also think young bands are they're
still struggling, but they're struggling in different ways. I think
they struggle with the amount of stuff they have to

(19:23):
extra unpaid labor of content production on the web that
they have to do that Like I'm lucky that I
don't have to. I mean, I have to do exact
a business and stuff, but like I'm just not that
interested in that, and like I try to figure out
I've actually learned from the younger generation, like the way
younger generation where they're like, I, you can't call me

(19:43):
after business hours, you can't, you know, And I'm like,
at first, I was like yeah, I was like exactly.
I was like, I was like, how dare you have boundaries?
I have eighteen jobs on different index cards, and I
look up every day and which one would be funnest
to work on today, and I do that, but then
I do like the you know, crappy business financial part
at the end of the day, and then I was like, no,

(20:03):
that's awesome. I should have weekends free. It's so hard
for me to be like I'm gonna have weekends free,
you know. But now that the book's done, I have
to protect my weekends, you know. And I have to
say five o'clock that's it. Sometimes it ends up being
seven o'clock. But I try to say five o'clock, that's it.
And then I try to leave it. And I have
a firm role and it's hard. It's really hard. But

(20:24):
like I wake up, I write my journal, I drink
my first coffee, and I sit in my really fancy
Eames chair that I bought myself. That is the most
comfortable chair I've ever seen it in my life. With
my feet up, and my dog gets on my lap.
My dog, who smells like a salm in factory, gets
on my lap, and I pet her, and I pet

(20:46):
her and pet her and pet her and drink my coffee.
And I don't look at the computer, and I don't
look at the phone until I've written in my journal
and I've pet my dog and she is asleep. So
I have to start my day like that with And
right now, we're in this apartment where I have a
view of the mountains, So I sit in my teams

(21:07):
share and look at the mountains. Sometimes do I look
at Instagram in the morning, Sure, But like I just
actually took Instagram off my phone again because I'm just like,
you know, I got to be in real life. You know,
I miss pre Internet. I'm nostalgic for it. I'm also
really into all the cool things that you can do

(21:27):
on it, you know, right, I love that I can,
you know, keep up with what you're doing on the internet.
You know, Like I don't live in the same city
as you, don't hang out, but I can like look
and be like, oh, what pants is he you know,
listening to and like I can like look them up
and you know, it's cool, but it's also like you
can get really addicted to. I mean, dud, this is
the most boring conversation. You have to cut this part
out because nobody wants to hear people talking about the Internet.

(21:49):
I'm so bored of it.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
No, I mean, we're two humans having a normal So
of my best episodes are just having a conversation.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
I was going to ask.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
Twenty three year old you, like, if someone were to
come up, all right, let's go to twenty five twenty.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
Six, I remember what I was doing then.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
Well, I mean just let's let's say ninety two, ninety three,
ninety four, around that period in Bikini Hill. Yeah, if
someone a Jacob Marley figure from the future where to
tell you, Hey, I'm from twenty twenty four. Let me
show you a ten minute scissorle reel of what life

(22:33):
is going to be like in October of twenty twenty four,
like way past the year two thousand, like in ninety three,
ninety four, nineteen ninety nine was the future?

Speaker 1 (22:46):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, I couldn't even imagine like two thousand and five,
let alone twenty twenty five. What would your reaction be
if someone shows you in nineteen ninety.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
Three where we are right now thirty years later.

Speaker 3 (23:05):
It's the whole world, not just my life. I think
if I was looking at if I was sharing my
life in particular, I would be so happy. I would
be like, oh my god. First of all, I'm alive.
Second of all, the.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Irony that your life is the best has ever been
in the most turbulent times whatsoever.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yeah, and I'm finally getting like my sort of like
I have a feeling you at some point have made
a pie chart of what you do during the day
or what you do during the month, to be like
how much of my time is business stuff that I hate,
and how much of my time is creative stuff I love?
And how much of my time is like friendship time,

(23:43):
relationship time, dog time, like whatever your thing is.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
I've hired a chief of staff. There's so much shame
in the title. When they're like, oh, you're assistant, I'm like, no,
I literally hired a chief of staff because I have
seven managers.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
I mean, I have a part of business, partner now
you know I have my bands have never had a manager.
We had a manager for like fifteen minutes, and Ladra.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
You were the manager. I mean you did everything.

Speaker 3 (24:13):
Kind of well, we split it up. I was I
don't do all the work, but my band split up
all of the work. And it's like, you know, we
have a to do list and we each rip it
off into three parts, like I don't, I haven't. I
didn't have a manager until a year and a half ago,
and it's like more of a business partner. Yeah, who's
amazing and absolutely adore her, and I couldn't do I

(24:33):
couldn't be doing this stuff I'm doing right now and
have finished the book and done the book tour without
her at all. But like it took me to age
fifty five to set that up, Like that's how behind
the times I.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Am fifty two. We talked about boundaries and.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
And I do feel pathetic that, like yes, even for
date night, for a movie night, for hangover my friends' night,
like everyone has to a ask Amy.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
You com to come by the studient?

Speaker 2 (25:03):
No no, no, no, let me ask my mommy first, which
is basically asking my person show me the pie chart,
Like where can we fit this in, like yeah, but
I'm also dead serious about boundaries, and the amount of
nos I've given this year is the most knows I've
ever given in my life.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
I did a year of no around ninety two when
Bikini Kill first started getting all of this attention, and
I was like, I had this extreme guilt because I
was like, you know, from this kind of tighten it
feminist community, and the whole idea is no, you know,
anti hierarchy, and also in the punk scene, anti hierarchy.
And I worked behind the scenes like long before I
was ever in a band, like I didn't see myself.

(25:43):
I wanted to be a singer, but I didn't really
think it was possible that i'd be in a band
because I just always dated people in bands. It was
best friends with people in bands, but it just didn't
seem possible. And so I was always like setting up
shows and doing stuff, you know, the rape relief shelter
and doing you know, art shows and you know, running
out random warehouses and putting on doing projects. And then

(26:05):
when I started doing them, it just rolled and rolled
and rolled and kept going, and then all of a sudden,
I was the front person and I was the lead
who was in the spotlight, and that was very uncomfortable
for me.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
I was going to ask, were your nose based on
the fear of getting the attention and being the obviously
everyone was looking for a Ronald McDonald or a figurehead
to peg like leader of the movement or that, and
that comes with imposter syndrome and all that stuff and

(26:42):
all that.

Speaker 3 (26:42):
Stuff, and if you like you, it's like I've had
friends who got famerly quick and didn't have you know,
the counseling and stuff, didn't have a team of therapist
with them and ended up you know, leaving this surf
the way way way too soon. And so I had
all these cautionary tales that was like, don't go down
that road because you're going to die. Like I literally
was like, if you get famous, you die, Like that's
what I thought, or like, you know, people are always

(27:04):
like sneaking around the corner trying to get you, and
I was like, I can't live that life and be
in community. It also took me out of community. It
made me a star, so that then I started to
feel unwelcome in my community because they're like, oh, you
think you're so great, You're so conceited. You know. I
got some girl walk up to me in a grocery
store and I was like on my period, carrying an
thing on ice milk, like Neapolitan ice milk, you know,

(27:25):
beautiful Neapolitan ice milks, like carrying it. And I had
a bag of JoJo's. Do you remember those from the
Pacific Northwest. They're like really big French fries and they're
covered in like shaking bake material. You could get them
at like Safeway. So I had my JoJo's, my tampons,
my Neapolitan ice cream, and I'm walking in safe way
and it's about ninety two, like the time period we're

(27:46):
talking about, and some punk girl walks up to me
and she's like, you're ruining the punk scene. You think
you're so great, blah blah blah. And I'm like having
cramps and I'm carrying like a pretty embarrassing assortment of items,
and I'm just like, really right now, you know. And
so it was that kind of stuff that made me like,
you know, everyone's going to throw water on your shine,
so throw water on your shine first. You know, like

(28:09):
someone's gonna punch you in the face, so punch yourself
in the face first, like I don't know what the
hell I was thinking. So I like I pulled back
and I was like, I'm just going to do community stuff.
I was like putting on you know, benefits for harm
reduction and like doing all this behind the scenes stuff.
I was answering all my mail, as I always did
to these kids who are writing, and they're like, I'm
going to kill myself because I just came out to

(28:29):
my family and I was rejected or you know a
lot of people who had rape in and messing violence,
you know, stuff going on in their lives, and like
I just put my nose down and did that work,
you know, And that's why I said no it So
I said no for the wrong reasons. But I also
ended up in this really weird predicament where because Bikini
Kill got so famous so quick for like five minutes,

(28:50):
and we got put in like all of these like
feminist academics wanted to like put make classes about us
and like put us in their books and stuff. I
ended up being an unpaid assistant or like five different
feminist professors without my knowledge. They were like from big
ivy league schools and they call me and they'd be like, oh,
you know, I'm really trying to put together this you know,
syllabus or blah blah blah, and I'm like handing.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Down to research.

Speaker 3 (29:13):
I was doing all this research for them and stuff,
thinking I'm a part of feminist community and I and
then one day I was like, wait, they're getting paid
and they also have an assistant or or ta who's
getting paid? Why I make music? Right, I'm write, but
I'm not doing that. I'm doing their job. And so
I just the next day I woke up and anybody

(29:33):
asked me for anything any favor. No, no, no, And
if they weren't jerks about it, and they didn't keep
I found out everybody in my life who was a
total toxic nightmare by saying no to everybody. Yeah, and
then everyone who was a toxic namare was like why
why not? Why not? What? You don't care about me,

(29:54):
you don't care about community. And I was like, yeah,
you're now I'm not only not doing any favor, but
you're out of my life for ever and I'm never
returning your calls. And then I found all the people
who were cool about it. A couple months later, if
I was like, you know, actually that sounded like fun.
I'm going to call that person up and see if
they still want to do something together, and so you circle.

(30:15):
But I didn't do it for the right reasons at all.
I took a year off. I could have written a
great record in that year, but I was really too damaged.
And this was right after also, like you know, a
lot of people in my life had had just passed
and I was just really messed up.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
Can I ask, Okay, so you said something in your book,
So right now I'm working on two projects in which
and let me start off by saying that, wait, that's it.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Your only work on two projects? Was wrong with you?

Speaker 1 (30:44):
This two?

Speaker 3 (30:46):
You're in a good community member.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
This is two of the of the eleven I'm trying
to whittle down to, you know, a simple one. So
there's two projects I'm doing right now. They both require.
The shortest way to put it is that both of
them require for me to be the doctor Melfie to
their tony soprano. Kind of the insane amount of trauma

(31:16):
dumping I have to take on getting their stories. It
got to the point where I, you know, had to
get a second therapist. When you got to the part
of the book when you're holding these meetings because you're
not only producing and writing, but you're also teen rape
counselor you're holding these feminist meetings to the point where

(31:40):
even when you discover that there's trouble in Paradise in
terms of white feminism, and you're putting on so many
caps at the same time, what was the breaking point
for you? And I'm only asking this because one of
the subjects no, no, no, Well, the thing is is
that my version to know had less to do with like,

(32:02):
I understand that there's some nos where no, we're too
cool for school, we can't do that, But I also
know that three years ago I had to discover boundaries.
I thought being self sacrificing was like, oh, that a
mirror he's he always works so hard. I got tired
of being that person, you know, the self sacrificing person,

(32:24):
never thinking of myself. Now, in one of these particular projects,
the subject is similar to our story in terms of
like leading a movement and sacrificing and sacrificing and sacrificing,
and what winds up happening is at the root of

(32:44):
this particular person's story sort of lies an undealt with
trauma with his parents, and this person kind of has
a medical issue with their own life. And I'm always
a believer that behind every medical issue is an emotional

(33:07):
component that's not thought out or or dealt with. Could
you talk about and you know, you're very open about
the relationship with your father in the beginning years, and
obviously I felt that your need to save people is

(33:29):
you seeing yourself in you know, you want to say
the version of you that wasn't didn't have a protector,
didn't have someone to advocate for them.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yes, but at what point did you.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
Realize Now, the fact that you allowed love in your
life via Adam was amazing because it took me five
decades to get to that place. But at what point
did self care become truly important to you and that
you had to what everything else is side? As far

(34:01):
as like juggling twelve plates at the same time, you know,
leading a movement, flyers, meetings, teachers just unpaid teachers, assistant. Yeah,
what was that breaking point?

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Like for you?

Speaker 3 (34:15):
I can tell you the exact moment, Okay, Like it's
it's so funny because while you're talking, I'm like, oh, yeah,
I know the exact moment. I was doing some work
for a political organization around uh Freemuma Abujamal and I
was working to help put on a concert and I

(34:35):
got very, very sick. And this is when I was
still living in Olympia and I was in Bikini Hill,
so it was still nineties and I had a temperature
that was like over one hundred and three and I
really I ended up being hospitalized. And I had a
like a you know, just a mattress on the floor.
Like I don't know what it was that like I

(34:56):
thought to be like I thought people who had matt
tress frames were. I was like why, you know, like
when I look back on how many times I just
like threw a mattress on the floor and like that
was it? You know? I mean I was really I
was that busy that I was like, you know the
guy who just like any T shirt that's laying on
the floor, I just like throw it on, right. Yeah. No,

(35:18):
I mean there were times in my vand where one
of us would shoke with lipstick on and be like,
how did you have time to put that on? Because
we were so busy. It was like, you know, you
would sleep and then wake up and then start working
in But I was laying on my mattress in my
apartment and I had to crawl the bathroom because I
was that sick. And my phone kept bringing and kept

(35:39):
bring and kept bringing, and I had an answering machine
at the time with the mini tape, and this woman
from the political organization was like, you need to call
me back. We need to get the sun, we need
to get the stune. And I had already picked up
and said, I have one hundred and three y tent
and I'm really really sick. And she kept calling and
calling and she was like she screamed, I picked it up,

(36:00):
and I was like, dude, I'm like really sick, Like
I'm crawling to the bathroom and she's like, then crawl
to the fucking fact is I had a fax machine.
Crawl to the fucking fax machine and facts Eddie Vedder
and Zach de Larocha. I was like, and you know
what I did it.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
I crawled to the fax.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
Machine and not only did I fax them, I drew
cute drawings on the facts, you know what I mean,
Like when you're doing something like as you're crawling and
then you're getting out the sharpie and you're drawing the
cute dog picture so that Zach de l Rocha notices
your facts. I'm like, this is you know. And then
my mom ended up driving from Portland to come get

(36:44):
me and taking me to the hospital and I was
really really sick and I was hospitalized and it was
a bad situation. And the other time it happened was
when I've had a long term illness which I since
recovered from. And that was like I was so driving
at a thousand miles per hour with a break on
in my life that my body was.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
Like gave out.

Speaker 3 (37:07):
My body was like my drenals were shot, everything was shot.
I was having like seizures, like it was like really
bad and when you're like kind of staring at death
because it was at that point where it was like
we didn't know what I had and I was really sick. Yes,
I actually do have a verifiable by tests illness. I

(37:29):
don't think it would have gotten as out.

Speaker 4 (37:31):
Of control as it did if I hadn't suppressed all
of this trauma because my trauma body, you know, And
I do have a theory and people will.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
Probably get mad about it or whatever, but about auto
because it's autoimmunal oneness. It's like, I don't think people
make up autoimmune oneness is I don't think they're fake.
I don't think they're in your head. But for me,
my autoimmune oness was definitely made way worse by the
fact that I completely ignored my body. But I lived
in a state of hyper arousal from the time that

(38:05):
I was a kid, Like I would look at my
how my dad came into the house and be like,
what's going to happen tonight.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
And adjust to yourself to the dude, and.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
The same thing, you know, when when as a feminist musician,
who would walk into a venue and have to deal
with all these men and not have our own sound person,
not have a tour manager, we had no one. We
would have one roadie if that. So I would have
to kind of, you know, select the d of all
of these dudes emotionally or psychologically to get them to

(38:35):
turn my sound up, you know, And it was kind
And then I'd have an audience full of men who
were like yelling, you man, hating bitch, you know, shut
the fuck up, like whatever, and I'm like, I'm just
I just want to be in a band. I just
want to be in a band. I really love music.
I just want to play music, And so dealing with
that also made me walk into situations and be hyper aroused.
Every time I would play a show, I'm looking for
who has a glass or a bottle in their hand

(38:57):
that they're going to throw at me, or chain or
even a Setiger wineglass. You know, I had a wine
glass seron at me and I was like, I could
see it coming, but I'm really I hope somebody taped
it because do you know that really famous moment in
that Bad Brains video where hr goes like that, it
was like that, Yes, it was like that I did that,

(39:19):
And I'm like, did anybody get that on camera? Because
I really want to like put it next to HRS clip.
But yeah, I was like in this total state of
hyper arousal. And I really do feel like in a
way because what my body does is if I get
any kind of infection or sick, it goes to crazy,
out of control fever, right, And it's almost like my
body's in a state of hyper arousal. So it's like

(39:42):
my body sees some cells in my body making a
weird face and start my body starts freaking.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
Out and you're in a constant state of fight or flight.

Speaker 3 (39:50):
Yeah, And I mean like I had to do nine
months of IV therapy. This is actually real illness. And
it's like I have quantifiable proof that I have it,
so it's it's not all in my head. But there's
a mind body connection. Who knew? You know, I've been
living above my head for so long, you know, to
avoid the trauma that is like residual, like leftover room

(40:12):
and body. And something I have to say to you,
my friend, because while you were talking, I thought of this.
And I don't mean to psychoanalyze you, but I'm going
to do it fucking anyway, because anybody who said that
everyone do psychoanalyze you is about to psychoanalyze you. I
think it's really interesting the when we started talking, you
talked about your girlfriend, saying when are you going to
write the real book and be vulnerable about your own life?

(40:33):
And then you've gotten involved with these two projects where
especially this one you're talking about, where someone has suppressed
something that they need to deal with and they're trauma
dumping on you and and and I know that they're
probably a super amazing person, and it's not. You're not
saying that with anger or anything. It's like they're they're
actually telling their lives.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
Oh no, the people I love.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
Yeah, But like I think that that's really interesting and
that it's something I relate to because you know, I
wasn't getting help for the abuse that I'd suffered in
my life, and it kind of went from my house
to then, you know, being raped in high school and
you know, date rape. I mean, I don't know who
wasn't date raped at some point in their lives, but

(41:20):
you know, it's not a unique story. But it's like
all of these different things happen. And then I have
this job where I'm constantly sexually harassed and there's no HR.
There's no HR in punk rock. Who am I going
to call? You know what I mean? Like HR puff
and stuff like who's going to help me? No one's
going to help me? And so it's like I'm in
a different work environment every day that's abusive, and I

(41:40):
can't just be like, hey, can you move Bill's desk
away from me? Because he keeps saying if I don't
tell him if I'm married or single, he won't give
me the report, which is what was happening to me.
Where I had monitor, guys wouldn't plug in my monitor
unless I told them what my status was in terms
of a man. And yeah, and I'm like, why why

(42:01):
does that? What does it have to do with my
monitor situation? So I started bringing my own monitor and
plugging it in myself. And these are extra things that
people have to do who get treated poorly. And you
know the other thing, though, I have to look back
and be like, because of the particular time period and
place I grew up in with the nineties kind of
pure punk purist aesthetic, which I now am very critical

(42:22):
of because I think a lot of it is very
classist and it's very like upper white, middle class, like
holier than now. And there's a lot of playing. Yeah,
there's definitely a lot of cosplaying for and there's definitely like,
you know, the Trustafarians at my school, Like there's just a.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Lot of Trustians.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, that's an amazing Oh god, yeah, I've never heard Okay.

Speaker 3 (42:48):
But you know what I'm talking about. The white guy
with redlocks on the subway. I don't stop who's singing
Marley songs.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
There's a schedule on SNL called ros that Andy Samberg
did about Rastafarian.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
Yeah, I know many of those cats.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
I know many of those cats. So something happened that
you're probably not even aware. It's ninety five, so and
it's so weird at how our stories are intertwined. You know,
we signed to DGC Geffen in ninety three, and this

(43:32):
was like kind of the height and the madness of
billions and billions and billions of dollars racked in from
you know, post Guns n' Roses, residual post Aerosmith residual monies,
and of course never Mind was just you know, that
was the cherry on top. And what winds up happening

(43:56):
is so Geffen doesn't have a black department, a black
music division, and in the craziest kind of eleventh hour,
one second left in the game, Hail Mary Throw, I

(44:17):
know this story, right, They offer this amount of money, Yeah,
they offered this deal. But the most attractive part of
this deal was the security part of it. And the
security part was if we made one album, we would
have to make the second and third album. If we
made the fourth album, we'd have to make the fourth

(44:40):
and the fifth album. Like we couldn't get dropped. Most
most like rap groups have to prove out the gate.
You must have a hit single or else that's it.
And so that's what attracted us. Between the period of
December and April of ninety four, you know, we make
this record, and you know, as we're talking to the

(45:03):
guys that Geffen, you're Eddie Rosenblatz, You're Windy gold Scenes
like the people that were our staff members, it became
obvious that, you know, Guns n' Roses is not making
a follow up record. So called Chinese Democracy is going
to come any month. Now, Aerosmith leaves to go back
to Sony, and then April comes, and when Kirk leaves us,

(45:29):
that's a panic signal to my manager, who says, I
think the honeymoon's over and we have to make something happen.
So this something straight out of a movie. We like,
think of the chase scene and rest of our dogs.
We basically kind of stole our budget money out of
the bank. So we wind up moving in a panic

(45:53):
move because we sense that their excitement of starting a
black music department is going to drown out because three
of their marquee artists are no longer in existence, and
so we moved to London. And we fish out of water.

(46:13):
We live in we get a flat in London and
we work out the gym. And it takes about a
good year and a half before Geffen kind of in
a move that's sort of like they lost their.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
Keys, like wait, what some Swiss he.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
Of course, you know, Like literally it's like a year
and a half later before they realized like we're the
fuck of the roots.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
They're in London right.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
And literally right before panic Hits, were like, ah, look
at all the press we got, like we did this
all on our own, and they were like, oh.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
You guys did all this.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
It's like, yeah, we got our own agent, and we
got our own tour bus, and we got our own
apartment and we just and that's all. We were like
the black hip hop version of The Commitments. I don't
know if you remember that movie.

Speaker 3 (47:01):
Were you were you working out the material for the
album live before you recorded it, or were you doing
it simultaneously.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
I mean, because we started off busking on the streets,
we kind of knew the songs that were going to
wind up on the album, but we made the album. Uh.
Literally the day that Kirk Loder reported the news of
Kirk's death, my manager was like, yo, we got three days.
We're gonna in about three to five days, we made

(47:30):
three videos, shot the album cover, knocked out nine songs,
like finished the record. We didn't want to get dropped
from the label because like, we bet the farm on
this moment. And they were impressed enough, and sure enough,
as he predicted, they dropped the other eighteen acts. But
they were like, well, the Roots already completed their record.

Speaker 1 (47:49):
So keep them. So wow.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
So you know, we we work out in Europe for
an entire year and they're like, okay, guys, you're eventually
going to have to come back home. And it's like
ninety five and we're going to do our first dates
in the States. Start off in La go to San Francisco,
work our way to Portland and fourth.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
Stop in Seattle and then Vancouver.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
And after our Seattle show, like you know, in every
band's history or their folklore, there's that one like crazy
person that they meet, like their version of Large March
from Pee Wee Herman, like someone just shifting. My manager

(48:39):
gets on the bus the day that we leave for
Vancouver is like, yo, man, I met the most craziest
interesting and he goes.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
On and on and knowing and knowing about.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
He saw someone at an after you know, like we
would do a show and then you know, we had
critical buzz, so people are there to see and he
gets invited to an after party where the other Seattle
Luminaries are. He talks to you for about two hours
and you tell him the whole story of what and

(49:11):
this is ninety five, so everything that you've organized and whatever,
and he was like whatever you told him. He's like, Yo,
there needs to be a feminist movement. And I was like, huh,
we're trying to get on MTV, Like why do we
have to start a movie. He's like no, man, it's
like you got to come out think outside the box.

(49:33):
Like and I was like, what we're rap group? Like
there's no women in our Like I could not fathom, Like, okay,
so we're going to be a feminist band now, like
how does that work in hip hop? Like even I
was drinking the kool aid of what kind of what
hip hop was supposed to be and all that stuff,
and you know, I'm thinking of self preservation. And he

(49:57):
never lost that legal pad, like he wrote like a
maniac everything you said, and sure enough, starting in ninety seven.
The second time I had an interaction with you, the
two commonalities of it. The thing that impressed him the
most was that you had a plan, you executed the plan,

(50:23):
and at both events you famously cussed.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
Out a.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
Figurehead rival of yours that we won't mention her name,
you know, at both events. The first night he met you,
and then the second time I met you was our
last day would tourn with the Beastie Boys and it's
this outdoor. Yes, it wasn't bumpershoed, it wasn't the Gorge.

(50:52):
It was basically the Beastie Boys, bad brains, the roots,
far side.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
Yeah, that was the night when I I didn't cuss out,
but I basically, yeah, told them what Ricky Powell was
doing behind their backs.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
Yo.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
When when I got to that from their lives and
I saw you independent of and Rich was like, you
remember what you remember from Seattle?

Speaker 3 (51:16):
On the phone? Rich and I used to talk on
the phone. We were like phone friends. I don't remember
the I don't remember the legal power or the first
time we met or anything. I just remember that.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
We were because he would hang up and literally.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
Just I really know if he liked me like I
thought he might like me. But it was like around
the time when I was meeting Adam, I know he
didn't like me, but I was kind of like, does
he like me? Like because and then I was like,
oh no, this is just a friendship, so sorry for
your loss. But he was. He was great, and we
had such amazing phone conversations and.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
It just like you gave us a blueprint. And so
when we started just telling.

Speaker 3 (51:48):
Him record stores in Portland, I was like, I hope
they went to that one record store.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Oh well, you know, I'm I'm a constant record shopper,
so I'm almost certain that I went to everywhere in Portland,
like Portland's I was my all time favorite place on Earth,
pre pandemic it was. But yeah, I'll say that talking
us into being accessible, being community based, having jam sessions.

(52:16):
At first it was the Roots Jam session, and sure enough,
you know, whenever the ladies in our circle wanted to
get on the mic, it was like they would complaining that,
you know, you guys are hogging up everything and we
don't have our like where's our agency? And then we
morphed it into what we now know is Black Lily,
which of course was kind of the impetus of the

(52:38):
spark that finally, by our fourth album had caught on
and started a movement. But you know, I never ever
got to like thank you for kind.

Speaker 3 (52:55):
Yeah. I was like, I didn't even think you knew
who I was. I was like, can I get on quest?
I was like, I don't I feel like, I mean,
we've run into each other, like he came to my
movie thing, Like I think he's aware of me, but
you just know so many people that I was like,
we have friends in common. I was like, maybe if
you say I'm married toad Rock. I was like, but yeah,
the fact that you that you're.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Aware even when I saw and you add together, like
the various times I've run into you guys, I didn't
want to freak you out because I was like, yo, dog,
she doesn't even know.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
And sometimes I don't know these things, Like people will
tell me things like you.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
Don't even realize that the time you blah blah blah
blah blah backed in ninety eight, Like now that's the
part of long life that I'm getting. Where people from
this college that apparently I did something for that you know,
you gave me. There was one person that said, uh,
I guess i'd for senior paper.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
I talked to him for.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Three hours and that wound up not only getting him
an A, but that got him like hired at Lucasfilm
like stuff that you're you're not aware of the residual effect.
So I wanted to say this platform, No, I was
highly aware of who you were and follows you throughout
the the years, like literally you're you're the first. And

(54:09):
I don't mean character in a reductive way, but you know,
when we're arriving in Seattle after living in Europe and
a John tirolta boy in a plastic bubble way like
like I didn't meet a Wu Tang member until nineteen
ninety nine. Like we were just we were very much

(54:31):
hip hop, but we were just separated from what was
happening between ninety three and ninety nine because we were
living in Europe and on other tours that weren't hip
hop related. And so finally, using your your blueprint in
terms of organizing a movement was how we finally like
broke through to the other side. So you can add

(54:54):
that feather to you, cap.

Speaker 3 (54:57):
I hope it didn't cause the problems that it for me,
because I definitely took on too much, you know, and
I've never listened to critics, like I know you're somebody
who like follows what critics say and like, you know,
album and sales, and like, I feel really lucky that
that was just never I came at music making as
an art practice, like from my other art forms, so

(55:20):
I had this real thing of like not protecting my creativity.
But I feel very lucky, Like with one of the
first questions you asked was like, you know, how did
you write this book, and like what about the people
in it? And like how are people? Were you worried
how people are going to react? And it's like I
didn't think about it, and like I tried. There's definitely
been one album that I made that I was thinking
about that and it was not good, And almost everything

(55:41):
else I've just been like I'm just making the thing
I want to make, Like I'm eitherre's something that I
want to hear or there's something I want to read
that isn't being written, And You're right, a lot of
it ended up being I was writing to me when
I was fifteen, as if I was the adult who
was saying the things that I needed to hear or
I was saying the things that I needed to hear
that would validate that I wasn't insane, you know what

(56:04):
I mean that like, actually the world's crazy and you're
kind of okay. But it's really funny when your music
catches up with your life, you know, and then you're
actually writing about what's happening now, and you're not still
writing about you know, past stuff that you don't even
know you're writing about. Until for me, you know, my
band didn't play shows, both my downs for like twenty years,
and then we got back together, and all of a sudden,

(56:26):
I was like, I am the person that I wrote
about wanting to be in this song right now. And
I've realized what all these songs were actually about, and
that they were about totally different things that I were about.
You know, like before I ever came out of being
having been been raped by a friend of mine while
I was in Bikini Kill, and everybody thought I was

(56:46):
like a strong, tough feminist and you know, I'm always
like you know, yeapin and blah blah blah, and you
cut some people out like whatever. But I also was
actually assaulted by a close friend of mine during that time,
like right before I went on a really big tour
and the day before I went on tour, And what
did I do? I played shows. And I'm glad I
did because I got to throw my whole body and

(57:08):
my whole life story into every single night, and so
I think that kept me alive. Honestly, it wasn't always
me using it as a distraction, because everything else is
a distraction in my life. But when I'm on stage,
that's the main time that I'm a real person and
that I am who I most really honestly, and I'm

(57:31):
fully present and I'll bank like every other hour of
my life just for that hour and a half or
two hour time period, because to me, live performance is
the main thing that I crave as a person. So yeah,
I was going through that kind of stuff, and like
nobody knew about it, and I feel like I couldn't
tell people because I didn't want the riot Gral people

(57:53):
to come after him, because that just wasn't the story
that I wanted. Like retribution for me holds no entry
and it's just taking me off of the path of
what I want to make and I wasn't ready to
deal with it, and so I just shut it off
from my brain and I moved along and I was like,
you know what, my mission is more important than this person.
But eventually it came back to bite me in the

(58:14):
ass and I and it came to the fore and
I had to deal with it and I had to
process it. And you know, through doing that, that was
when I finally fell in love with that. That's when
I got my cat, David Sue recipes, That's when I
finally started. I bought a couch.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
Like I have never heard a cat a mattress, you
know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (58:34):
Like I had not only a mattress, but I had
a couch too.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Yeah, you're adulting. I have two questions to ask, Okay.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
So one, you know, thank you for your your your
honesty and sharing those stories in your book about your assault.
Knowing what you know now and especially what's been happening
in the last five years, is a part of you
wishing that well, First of all, if you go back

(59:07):
in time. Number one is hope that you never have
to experience that ever.

Speaker 3 (59:11):
Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
But in terms of the one particular story that you
shared about, you know, having a conversation of vulnerability and
you guys just sitting lying in the bed next to
each other and talking, and that was the person that
you trusted.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
And suddenly it just went one eighty the other way.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
And you know, as I'm reading this, I'm like, oh God, okay,
is the rage going to happen?

Speaker 1 (59:39):
Here is it?

Speaker 2 (59:41):
And I understand letting him go, and I understand the
entire ordeal of reliving that trauma through the legal system,
and all that stuff was just whatever.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
I mean, I forgot it the second I left.

Speaker 2 (59:54):
Right the way that you painted it, I was like, oh, okay,
she It was almost like a struggle.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Oh no, big deal. Okay, well, goodbye, see you later.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
Are you fine with the process of how you put
that in your past?

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
Yeah? I mean I'm mad that he hasn't had to
pay for my therapy because it keeps coming up. And
I'm like, Jesus Christ, when will this person go away?
You know what I mean. It's not the person, it's
like the abuse of trust. And you know, I was
also at a place in my life where like I
needed to find a good man. I needed to find

(01:00:31):
a man in my life who was a feminist and
who read books about it and cared about it to
prove to me. I've been so disappointed by so many
men in my life who i'd gotten close to. Like
I had for a lot of my life, a lot
of guy friends, and I hung out with guys, and
I was like the kind of person who was like,
let's go, you know, break bottles down by the railroad track. Yeah,

(01:00:54):
well let's go. Yeah, let's go break into the you know,
the old prison and you know, smoke pot like stuff
like that. And so I have these guy friends and
like the second I wouldn't have a boyfriend, they'd be like, okay,
let's have sex, and I'd be like, I don't like
you like that. And then it'd be like you know,
either stock er behavior, they're really mad, they're ego is bruises,
this whole thing. And I was like, God, this is

(01:01:16):
so awful. And so I thought I finally thought I
met this guy who was you know, he's so smart,
and we're like, you know, Briny Angela Davis books together
and like talking about it and I'm like, this guy's
so cool. And then he hands up sexually assaulting me.
And I was like the fact that I could ever
trust anybody again in my life. But you know is

(01:01:37):
kind of like I feel like I'm a walking miracle.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
So well, part two of my question is how did
you allow yourself the space to open your heart to Adam?
And kind of part three of that question is behind
every punk persona is there a cheese ball?

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
Because the fact that because the fact that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
You are corny right now got well, the thing was,
you gave yourself away with Donnie Marie.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
I fell into you backwards, right your persona.

Speaker 3 (01:02:10):
You started with Donnie Marie.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
No, no, no, no, I fell into you backwards. And
so then when I started reading the pool You're us
weekly Stars are just like us moment, I was like, oh,
she lived for Donnie Marie on Friday nights like I did,
like me and my sister did on Friday nights.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
So no, but the fact that your go to thought
was Okay, I need a mattress and I need peanut
butter and jelly, and like I was like, yeah, And
behind every punk persona is a cheese ball and you
brought this poster and oh, Dolk and Mike.

Speaker 3 (01:02:52):
I couldn't make up. So the story is I can
tell it from the book just so you know, is
that I was in love with Adam. I brought CORVI
It's from Dusty Boys, and it was pre internet, so
I couldn't just look up a picture of him to
drive apart because we were apart because he lived in
LA and New York and I lived in Olympia, Washington.

(01:03:13):
So I went to the Sam Goodie at the mall.
I couldn't go to the cool record store.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
I shopped at Sam Goodies.

Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
Well, you're from Philly. Did they have Waxy Maxis?

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
No, because the first the.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
First single I ever bought was pop Music by m
at Waxy Maxie, and I always loved that name. I
was like, if I ever started a record store, I'm
my name of Waxy Maxis. Anyways, I went to like
Sam Goodie at the mall because I was like, nobody
will recognize me. It was like the punk like in
you know, nose and glasses, sneaking into Sam Goodie instead
of the store.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
On Yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
Nobody will see me at the mall because like it's
a small town. Like seriously, anytime I was like, you know,
had a relationship with somebody, everybody knew because we all
lived in the same apartment building. So I was like, oh,
I saw so and so leaving her apartment, you know
what I mean? Like that is how every everybody knew everything,
Like you couldn't. You had to like go into a
coffee shop five minutes after somebody, so they didn't know

(01:04:13):
you were together. Like it was like we lived in
paparazzi land, even though we were like, you know, just
kids in like this kind of town run by punks.
It was pretty amazing to live in a town that
had it done town. But that's a whole other thing.
So I go drive to the mall, I get my
poster of the Beastie Boys, and I'm so psyched that
I get to look at the most handsome man. And

(01:04:34):
this is this is when you were saying, how did
you manage to open up your heart after these bad
experiences to this person. I like pretty boys. I just
like pretty boys. I like pretty girls too, but I
like pretty boys. And he is a very pretty boy.
And also he loves records and he loves music, and
he's very different from me and compliments me like he's

(01:04:57):
I'm more like that, I don't know, you know, like
like the feminist art, you know, person or like whatever,
and he's much more reserved. But he is funny as hell.
He is so funny, and that is just the sexiest.
I mean, he's good looking and he's funny, and he
likes good records. Because I have had one night chance
with people and I've looked at their collection or their

(01:05:19):
CD collection.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
You're that person you judge people.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
I'm sorry, but if I find out Dave Matthews CD.
I slept with this girl and I woke up in
the morning and she had like Dave Matthews and like,
I was.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
Like Matthews, I am.

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
I was like no. I was just like no, and
I and I ghosted her.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
I was like, I can't, you're that person.

Speaker 3 (01:05:46):
I bought the poster and I brought it home to
my apartment and I made out with it. I made
out with it. I kissed the poster all over and
I covered Mike and Yowk's faces. That was weird. I
was like, your bandmates are watching me make out with you.
You And then he found it when he came to
my apartment and he's like, what's how come the mouth
it's all.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
Mestered right out of let's water on it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
Yeah, it's fair.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
That's the most of romantic story I've ever heard. No,
here's the thing though, I.

Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
Used to be used to be well not steel amb
I was a member of Columbia House. Oh yeah, I
was also a lazy member of Columbia House. And the
way that Columbia House works, of course is yes, for
those that are listening to our show that were born
before nineteen ninety three, you didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:06:39):
Go to school in a pioneer buggy wagon, right.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
So Columbia House was the original Spotify where they would
entice you in magazines and whatnot. For a penny, you
get fifteen free albums and then you're instantly signing up
for a subscription service throughout the year. And the deal
with is.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
That they will send you two.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
To eight records a month based on your taste and
the algorithm, and if you like the records that you're getting,
then they just charge you and keep on charging you.
If you don't like it, you can return it, but
they're kind of banking on you forgetting to return it.
And so as a result, which the lazy part comes

(01:07:26):
into play, because I checked off I like all types
of music. I will say that a big part of
my you eyebrow raising judging me for my record collection
stems from all the records I didn't return from Columbia House,
and I would just force myself to listen. I think

(01:07:46):
between like twelve Wait a minute, I don't believe that
for a minute, all right, spew right now five records
between twelve and seventeen that you wouldn't want any of
your friends to know that you listen to They're really.

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
Tell the truth.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
It's all. It's all before that, because I mean, by the.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Time if you watch Donny Marie, I know.

Speaker 3 (01:08:12):
But but I'm proud of my Olbinaton John thing. So
I had this was a totally hot.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
Wait, totally hot. I was gonna say totally hot hot.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
Xanadu or like which which car hot totally we all
felt for totally hot.

Speaker 3 (01:08:26):
I literally carried it to camp without the vinyl in it,
so the vinyl didn't get hurt. I just carried the
and I slept with it under my pillow.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
First fist fight I got into with Mark Rapp in
the third grade.

Speaker 1 (01:08:42):
The way that I could get under his skin.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
Was okay, this is like in the video game era,
where you could write out something longer than three initials
if you get the high score.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Well I was are.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Asked, right.

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
But then it was one particular game that let you
have like twenty characters, and the sure fire away to
get under Mark's skin was to write Olivia sucks. I
mean I would spelling it out and he's like, if
you press into I, swear a mirror and run my

(01:09:22):
That was daily. But yeah, for Christmas, I remember, yeah,
she had like a commercial campaign with the black leather
jacket and all that shit.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
It was like Sandy from Greece continued.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
Right, exactly the same outfit. So yeah, it was so good.

Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
I had a fancy called Destination Olivia and then there
we had a party around it to celebrate its lunch
and it was a jone Jet versus Olivia and John
party and you had.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
Joined it or you made the fanzine.

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
I made the fancine called the Station Olivia, and then
a bunch of girls in my town were like, we're
going to throw this party that is jone Jet versus Olivia,
and so everybody dressed it's either Joan or Olivia, so
you're basically it was so and a lot of people
were lingerie.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
For now an a win tour of music fanzines because
you know, like the BC Boys taught me everything I
know that I still utilized now in my career, even
with me creating an OK player and being on the internet,
Like everything that I implement now is from those two

(01:10:28):
months of touring with those guys, especially with getting Grand Royal. Probably,
like one of my prize possessions is that I have
ten copies of every Grand Royal ever published somewhere in
my storage unit. But for you talk about the publisher
in you, like you putting these fanzines together, you putting

(01:10:51):
and I don't mean high school. I'm talking about even
in your career. How do you have the energy to
even do that in addition to being an artist.

Speaker 3 (01:11:01):
I mean, you know, when you're in your twenties, it's
not that big big deal, Like and when you live
in a small town, there was nothing going on. Like
we were bored kids, and we were really lucky that
at the time Heroin wasn't around. So yeah, we drank forties,
but like, and I may have drank too many forties
a few many times.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
But.

Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
You know, it was like something to do. So I
was just like, you know, I was also like really
stressed out a lot about stuff. And you know, when
you first become a feminist or you first become conscious
about just like marginalization and oppression and stuff like that.
Everywhere you look. It's tough for myself. Everywhere I looked,
I was like, there it is there, it is there,

(01:11:42):
it is. I was like, Oh my god, this movie
is so messed up. Like my mind was kind of
exploding when I was in my twenties with like all
the stuff I was learning about, like oh wow, you know,
this is how this group of people is being treated,
and this is like to keep these people down so
that they're workers and they don't you know, And I
was like whoa, you know, kind of freaking out. And
so fancines were real outlet for me to write poetically

(01:12:04):
about that stuff and to be creative about it and
to sort of like have it like go through the
computer of my brain and then come out the other
side as a way for me to talk about it.
And also, you know, me and my sister were the
first people in my family, like my mom and I
didn't go to college, so like we got to go
to college, and I was like so thrilled, Like I
felt like I was so lucky I got to be

(01:12:26):
there and I didn't want to you know, waste it.
And so I had this real yearning to like the
first time I read a Bell Hooks book, I wanted
to share it with my mom, you know, and it
was like I wanted to share it with other people
in my family. And so writing these fanzines was also
a way that I could share the books I was
reading in college that back then there was no internet,
so it was a way to put booklists. It was

(01:12:47):
a way to talk about the issues that were coming
up in books I was reading with other people who
maybe weren't going to college, because the majority of the
punk scene in Olympia weren't at Evergreen. Like Evergreen that
was the college that was in my town that I
went to, and that's why I moved there to Olympia,
Washington and Evergreen State College, and but most of the
punks didn't go to that college. They were just like

(01:13:09):
lived in the town, you know. So it was like
to be able to talk about feminism with everybody, not
just people who were in college, and actually people in
my college. There was like one feminist class that I took.
People think it was like this big feminist outbed, but
it was actually really frowned upon and when I tried
to put feminist ideas into my photography, it was like

(01:13:31):
shut the fuck up. So to be able to put
that out into the world and have people respond to
it's really important. And you know, when Kurt died, you
guys were, you know, scrambling to you know, get your
record done and make sure your contract was shut up.
And I was writing a fancy called The April Fool's
Day about quitting drinking. And I was interviewing my friend

(01:13:53):
Mikey's bass player Bryan Sparhawk, who I actually just saw
him when we got the key to the city in Olympia.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
Now you're the establishment a.

Speaker 3 (01:14:02):
Month ago, I know. I was like, I was like,
does this mean I can get into the Governor's Inn,
which is like the local hotels? Can I just use
this key? Right? But no, it was like I was interviewing,
you know, my friend Mikey also he was Kirk's front
and he was a heroin user, and I was trying
to do everything I could to talk about addiction in

(01:14:25):
the punk scene and to raise awareness and to try
to like make Kurt's death mean something, you know, because
like I can't. I couldn't. That's how I deal with things.
I'm like, this has to mean something like this has
to this horrible feeling I'm feeling. How can I channel
it into something that is not going to push me
down a bad road and it is going to make

(01:14:46):
me feel like I'm a part of something positive, you
know what I mean? And like, I didn't want his
death to just be oh to member of the twenty
seven club, Like there were people in my community who
were going further down the drug road because he had died,
and they were really depressed, And how could I be

(01:15:08):
a part of just starting a conversation? And so I
did that through a fancy you know that most people
don't have because it's out of print.

Speaker 2 (01:15:16):
But what I was going to ask, do you least
have the master copies?

Speaker 3 (01:15:21):
It fails. It's like an archive fit and white youth boast.

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
So they're somewhere preserved.

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):
Yeah, they're right across the street from Washington Store Park
in that library.

Speaker 1 (01:15:36):
Where do you currently reside now?

Speaker 3 (01:15:38):
Pasadena, California?

Speaker 1 (01:15:40):
Really?

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
Yeah, my mom moved here because she liked that song.
A little old lady from Pasadena, I see. I was like,
why did you play Pasadena? She's like, I almost like
that little old lady from Pasadena song. I was like,
She's like, I'm a old lady now. So I'm a
little old lady in Pasadena.

Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
I lived there for my mom's side of the family
lived out there, so wow, yeah briefly. Wow, that's where
my mother's side of the family lived.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
Now I want to.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
Ask de wee questions, what shows are you currently binging?
I'm getting something cheesy out of you if it's not
your record collection.

Speaker 3 (01:16:15):
I mean I binged Hacks, I binged Girls five Ever.

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
I think it's so funny, it's hilarious.

Speaker 3 (01:16:23):
Yeah, but actually I think it's called Stars. There's this
other one that's about a girl group that happened before,
and it's got like Brandy.

Speaker 1 (01:16:36):
Yeah, Stars, but that was only two seasons of it.

Speaker 3 (01:16:39):
Yeah, it's so but it's like prototype Girls five ever.
But it just didn't it didn't go hard comedy. It
meant it went more like so.

Speaker 1 (01:16:47):
Was sincere right, Yeah it had it was.

Speaker 3 (01:16:50):
It's actually a really really really funny show. But yeah,
I mean, Brandy, do you know wrong?

Speaker 1 (01:16:59):
I just my favorite harmony stacker of the nineties.

Speaker 3 (01:17:02):
Yes, incredible, but yeah, it's like it's like chock full
of literal stars, but it's also about like a nineties
kind of like rap singing group that gets back together
when they're like older and having relationships and stuff like that.
So I just I binge that, but it ended. That's
the problem with benching things is that then you're like, oh, no,

(01:17:22):
I'll never find out what happened.

Speaker 1 (01:17:24):
Because yeah, I'm that way with Detroiters.

Speaker 3 (01:17:27):
We just started watching that dude before.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
I loved him, and I'm happy for his ammy success
with his Netflix show now, but Detroiters. I called Jason
Sadekas at least once a month to beg him to
bring that show back.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
He's one of the producers of it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:46):
Okay, so there's a couple's question, what is your ideal
bedroom temperature? I learned in the Pandemic that a couple
must be equal, yoked in agreement how they want.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
The bedroom temperature. Eighty three you're Africa hot. You and
I are the same person.

Speaker 3 (01:18:11):
Yeah, eighty three. And Adam's fine with whatever. But my kid,
because it runs on the same thing. Our kid likes
it to be freezing cold. He wants it to be
eighty degrees.

Speaker 1 (01:18:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:18:21):
I've probably some of the harshest arguments I've had in
a relationship starts with the temperature.

Speaker 3 (01:18:29):
Are you going through menopause? Maybe that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:32):
I think I am, obviously I am. I think I am. Okay,
are you a text? Cold call or FaceTime? Person?

Speaker 3 (01:18:42):
Text? Okay, text and FaceTime, but I faced on my
mom like only only my mom and Adam, do you am?
I do Marco Polo with my.

Speaker 2 (01:18:54):
Friends really just out of nowhere, like you know, they're
in the shower somewhere, like inconvenient.

Speaker 1 (01:19:01):
Is that? What is marco polo?

Speaker 3 (01:19:03):
Oh? So marco polo is where you leave a video,
so like when it's convenient to me, it's like FaceTime,
but it's like when it's convenient to me. So it's
like me and my friend Jim or my friend Kathy,
like we leave and my friend Dusty we leave like
videos for each other on this thing called Marco polo.
So it's like I'll just be doing something and I'm
backstage and I'm able to talk because I'm not on

(01:19:24):
vocal rest, and this is like my ten minutes of
time that I can talk. So I like, just here's
where I am, and here's what's going on. I miss you?
What's going on in Alaska like whatever, and then when
they feel like it, they leave me one back and
then I get to check it and I will get
these like new Marco Polos every day and I can
check it at my convenience. I just didn't add for
Marco Polo, so I should get like a million dollars.

Speaker 1 (01:19:46):
I didn't know Marco Polo.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
I thought you meant Marco Polo, as in you just ambush.

Speaker 1 (01:19:50):
So I thought you like it was like the three
in the morning.

Speaker 3 (01:19:56):
Yeah, yeah, no, But that's the cool thing is that
you can just leave the video at in the morning
if that's why you're feeling like doing it. Like I
can't call my've all my three in the morning. Oh,
I just opened her house because she lives five blocks away.
I literally don't face on my mom anymore because I
just walk over to her house.

Speaker 1 (01:20:12):
Are you kidding?

Speaker 2 (01:20:12):
My mom will call me at any she doesn't understand
the word no, or I'm working or I'm taping live
right now.

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
I'll call you after I'm done taping.

Speaker 3 (01:20:23):
Like she's sitting just at a frame.

Speaker 2 (01:20:26):
Oh absolutely, like you see her her nostrils as she's
like she just got an iPhone.

Speaker 1 (01:20:33):
So yeah, that's that's that person.

Speaker 3 (01:20:36):
Yeah. I talked to my mom's Crown Molding a lot
on FaceTime. I'm like, there you go, mom, Really you're
Crome Molding. That's really great.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
Yeah, that sounds about right. When's the last time you've
been starstruck?

Speaker 3 (01:20:49):
God? I mean, I don't really, Like all my friends
are like nurses and teachers, so like, I don't really
we don't really run in celebrity circles so much.

Speaker 1 (01:20:59):
Person that you meant that you're like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:21:01):
Okay, So Leslie Gore I met at a party at
Evensler's house, so Evansler wrote Vagina Monologues. Yeah, and her
apartment when I went to it, and this is many
years ago in New York, was painted all red and
all the furniture was red. I mean it was like
it's like it's a TV show that rates itself, right,

(01:21:21):
like I was. I was like, no, this is so great.
But it was like every like kind of feminist luminary
was there and like this, you know, celebrating this activist
who had just gotten let out of jail after forty years.
And it was like this big thing and like everybody
was there and I was back to back with this
woman and then we turned around and I looked at

(01:21:43):
her and I just was like Leslie Gore, and I
could barely get it out of my mouth.

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
And then I just fully met her at a party.

Speaker 3 (01:21:52):
I met her at a party in a red apartment
where everything was red, like we were inside a vagina.
And then I looked at her and I I was
just I was sobbing and I couldn't get a word out,
and I'm just ba ba bab. I love Leslie Bore.
I loved Leslie Gore since I was a child. Her
voice is so amazing to me. It's got that like

(01:22:13):
clear as a bell kind of quality to it. And
I always was like, there's something underneath the lyrics going on.
There's something underneath the lyrics going on. And it turns
out she was gay. I didn't know that, and yeah,
and her and her girlfriend were at the party, and
I was like, I knew it, but you know, her
and her brother wrote out here on my own k yes,

(01:22:35):
and I sang that. I went on stage at a
high school dance in seventh grade with this girl, Jeanie Staver,
and this other girl and we took parts singing that
like we kind of like we made it into a trio.

Speaker 1 (01:22:52):
Who got the bridge? That's the hard part.

Speaker 3 (01:22:54):
Oh, I did, come on, that's the whole thing, to
get the bridge. But then I thought like, I was like,
you and your brother wrote that song because I interviewed
her for Miss magazine after I after I stopped crying,
I was like, I want to, you know, do something
with you.

Speaker 1 (01:23:08):
No, I didn't know she wrote that yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:23:11):
Oh damn, okay, yeah, And I was like, that's so
weird because I always felt such a connection with that
song and you know, Coco the character, I mean, fame
was everything, you know when I was young, like that
movie in Greece. I was always like, when Beyonce first
came on the scene, I was like, they have to
do a hip hop Grease remake with Beyonce because she's

(01:23:32):
so she'd be so good as Sandy. But it never happened, and.

Speaker 2 (01:23:36):
Well, they know, they kind of almost did. They remade
a hip hop version of Carmen.

Speaker 3 (01:23:42):
Yeah, and Grease the movie with modern stars.

Speaker 2 (01:23:47):
I thought you were going to tell me that you
were a Grease too person, not a Grease one person.

Speaker 3 (01:23:51):
Okay. I do like that song.

Speaker 1 (01:23:55):
I don't believe I want to Cuckoo cucko.

Speaker 3 (01:23:59):
Right, it's got one good song. It's terrible. It's terrible.

Speaker 1 (01:24:03):
Okay, I'm glad you're saying that it's terrible. Grease two.

Speaker 2 (01:24:06):
People will argue be in the ground that they liked
Grease two better than Grease one.

Speaker 3 (01:24:13):
Oh that's a lie. That's a lie. That's just like
they're just lying to their debtrarians.

Speaker 2 (01:24:19):
I liked your first album better, or I like the
demo better than Okay, that's what I thought you were.

Speaker 3 (01:24:25):
I'm always like that, Like I'm like. Somebody was like, oh, well,
Liz Fair and you know Exile and Guida, and I
was like, yeah, but when she was Girly Sounds and
it was on a cassette, it was so much better.

Speaker 1 (01:24:36):
I called this.

Speaker 3 (01:24:37):
I remember meeting Liz Fair at a show, at a
Babes and Twilan show, and she told me she was
writing a response to the Rolling Stones Exile on Main Street,
which is one of my favorite Stones albums. And I
was like so blown away because I was a huge
Stones fan when I was younger. I guess that's my
embarrassing theme, Like right, I mean, it's not embarrassing. I
was huge, huge, huge into the Stones to the point

(01:24:58):
I was going to get like the lips tattooed once
at a party, and I was like, so glad I didn't.
And then when I kind of like started learning about feminism,
and I was like, ooh, under my thumb, brown sugar,
oh you know what I mean. Like, I was like,
this is there's a lot of sexism and racism going
on in here. And I was just like this is
not cool. And I literally took and I mean now,

(01:25:19):
of course, as a record colicker, I don't even want
to tell you this, but I had like you know,
Japanese pressings, and like I had a stack this big,
all this kind stuff. I went down to the record
store and I set it on the desk and I
just was like have it.

Speaker 1 (01:25:35):
He gave him back.

Speaker 3 (01:25:37):
I just know there from all over the place. I
just was like, I was like, I can't have this
in my house, Like it was contraband, like what is
wrong with me?

Speaker 2 (01:25:44):
Like because you think someone's going to the collection and
judge you.

Speaker 3 (01:25:48):
No, it was because like I couldn't physically have it
in my house because it made me so disgusted that
I loved it so much. And then I was like
so disappointed and I realized I was so sad and
I was so upset. I couldn't look at it because
it made me nuts, and so I just like dropped
it on. I lived above a record store, so I
dropped it in the record store and just gave that

(01:26:09):
to them as a present to sell. And it's just
like I don't even want any money for it, but
like now I can see gray area.

Speaker 2 (01:26:15):
Yeah, I was like, even the most righteous person, I
think five percent of their record collection, oh yeah, is
allowed a problematic faith as long as it's not there
are some of that I just.

Speaker 3 (01:26:26):
Can't because I can't because it's just like I physically
feel ill. But it's like you know exact mean, you
know I love music too much that it's not all
of a sudden gonna make me do something horrible if
I listen to it, you know what I.

Speaker 1 (01:26:40):
Mean, Like you got to be but you're aware of
it now. But oh, I think you see you threw
that away. I was like, no, don't ever throw Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:26:47):
No, I would never throw Vine rmal Way.

Speaker 1 (01:26:48):
God, Okay, what is your secret talent?

Speaker 3 (01:26:52):
I mean, I can put my whole fist in my mouth.

Speaker 1 (01:26:56):
Okay, that's a secret talent. Small hands.

Speaker 3 (01:27:01):
Or not.

Speaker 2 (01:27:02):
I'm gonna ask you, and this is subjective. Is the
grass greener on the other side? Oh are you insatiable?

Speaker 3 (01:27:12):
You mean like that I want more, more and more
and more all the time?

Speaker 2 (01:27:14):
Yes, well, I mean my grass greener on the other
side was okay. So back in our grateful dead jam
ban two hundred days on the year lives, to tell
me that we're going to Europe for another two months
was like I'd rather slit my wrists, and God if
you hear me, like, can I stay in one place

(01:27:36):
and not have to tour ever again?

Speaker 1 (01:27:38):
And make the same mone? And then you get it,
and now it's like I.

Speaker 2 (01:27:42):
Would do anything, Oh yeah, to go back on the road.

Speaker 3 (01:27:46):
And you know, I've only been home a month, Like
I just got off the road. So I came home
and I was just like, I.

Speaker 2 (01:27:54):
Hate it here, even doing what I perceived to be
a victory lap for you.

Speaker 3 (01:28:01):
It wasn't a victory lab at all. It felt better
than it felt. I mean, I'm singing better.

Speaker 1 (01:28:07):
Well, that's a victory lab.

Speaker 3 (01:28:08):
I'm enjoying. Yeah, I'm enjoying the songs. I don't. I
can close my eyes and feel myself in the music
and not have to look to see if somebody's throwing
something at me. We have a sound person, we have
a manager. I mean that's the one when you're talking
about like going back and what could you what would
you tell yourself or if you saw the future, like whatever,
I would tell myself, like get a sound person right away,

(01:28:29):
like this, this needs to be a member of your
This is a member of your band.

Speaker 1 (01:28:33):
Like oh, the engineer is important.

Speaker 3 (01:28:35):
That's how people have a sound person. You can't go
I can't have a man who doesn't like my politics,
literally controlling my voice like it's just it's it's crazy making.
You can't live that way as as an artist, like
with the particular kind of like athletic singing that I do.
And so yeah, I would I would say, also, hey,

(01:28:56):
you know, maybe you should get a manager. I wish
I have known about those jobs sooner and had more education,
and I think that the internet was around, I would
have known about that stuff. And maybe you know, a
lot of stress came in our band and Bikini Kill
because we didn't have a manager, and so people go
to the lead singer and then I would bring stuff
into the band and I would be like the bearer
of bad tidings, you know what I mean, I'd be

(01:29:18):
the one in practice who's like, hey, before everybody leaves,
I have these ten questions, right, And then I'm like,
you know, because the manager, there's always a point where
you're rolling your eyes at your mand You're like, God,
if you asked me to do one more thing, it's
not their fault. But at the same time, you're like,
I don't want to do that interviewer. I don't want it,
you know, like I don't want to do another photo shoot,
or they don't have any clothes that fit me, like,

(01:29:39):
you know, like I'm just not in the mood. I
don't want to be looked at, you know whatever. But
I do have that thing of like the first day
after tour, I'm like so happy I don't have soundcheck.
Like I wake up and I'm like, oh, I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:29:50):
Have a sound check today, line check.

Speaker 3 (01:29:51):
Oh my god, I'm so happy I don't have a soundcheck.
And then I'm like, oh no, I'm not going to
get that. I'm not going to get the dopamine and
the adrenaline rush of being on stage and the community
filling and I'm just going to like go get my
windshield fixed today, and I'm like, I can't live my
life this way. But now I'm like settling in and

(01:30:14):
I'm like, you know, I have ten other projects that
I have to get to work on, and so I'm
really busy.

Speaker 2 (01:30:20):
So this is one area that I see a lot
of my peers failing spectacularly in, which is if you're
known as a rebel and you've been here long enough
walking a path, the path that you made, what happens

(01:30:41):
once there's no more struggle? Like do you feel comfortable
if it's just you and the songs?

Speaker 1 (01:30:48):
Now?

Speaker 2 (01:30:48):
Like if there's not something to rebel or fight against.
I think what's problematic right now, especially politically with a
lot of my peers that are my age that you
would hope kind of step to the plate or at
least live up to the idea of what I thought

(01:31:09):
they were when I was listening to them at eighteen
or nineteen, But I realized that.

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
Oh, well, none of them are.

Speaker 2 (01:31:17):
Going to stand on the political rights side of history
because that would ruin their brand. So I know, on
my side of the fence, there's a lot of cats
that are thinking of brand preservation, Like what does it
look like me complying with the system that I railed
against for thirty years. And I always wondered, like, well,

(01:31:41):
do you ever imagine, like thirty years forty years ago,
when you guys released records that you inspired a twenty
year old college students to get politically active and then
become the answer to you know, the problem that faced
us in the eighties and nineties. So I'll ask you

(01:32:02):
if there's no more? And of course I know there's
plenty of struggle. We're in the this is the fight
for our life struggle. Yeah, but oftentimes do you imagine
I don't think it's naive. I do believe that we
are in a paradigm shift, and a lot of the

(01:32:24):
air quote fuc shitttery that we're experiencing right now is
kind of a dying spirit grasping.

Speaker 3 (01:32:36):
Yeah, they're hanging. They're hanging off of the mountain by
their fingernails, all this completely crazy stuff, and you have
to believe that to have any hope. And it's like
we just have to step on them.

Speaker 2 (01:32:46):
Oh yeah, I'm a serial manifesto.

Speaker 1 (01:32:49):
I have no worries.

Speaker 2 (01:32:50):
I sleep at night because I know what's going to happen,
and it's up to us those who are gen X
those boom are still alive to adjust to it. And
you're seeing a lot of people not wanting to adjust
to where we are now in twenty twenty four. But
for you, do you imagine that there will be a

(01:33:11):
day where there will be no more struggle, where righteous
women are taking the lead and toxic mail energy has eroded? Like,
do you imagine a future in which it's ideal for you?

Speaker 3 (01:33:31):
I live in that future because I.

Speaker 1 (01:33:33):
That's how you survive.

Speaker 3 (01:33:34):
Yeah, And like I surround myself with positive people a
lot of times when I experienced sexism, now which idea.
I actually just went through a thing where I had
to fire somebody, but it was like I was so
shocked by the there's certain men you just cannot work
with women, and it's just really wild when you come

(01:33:56):
en counter with them. It's sort of like if somebody
comes to do work at at the house and they're like,
is the man of the house at home, you.

Speaker 1 (01:34:04):
Know, likes to your husband?

Speaker 3 (01:34:06):
Yeah, yeah, like that kind of thing, or like people
who will only talk to Adam and they don't look
at me, which I actually find totally gratifying because I
like to just be able. It means I can watch,
you know, and I'm kind of like I like to observe.
So I'm fine with that in a way, although you know,
it can be very annoying. But in my head, I'm
around all these amazing creative people who that's not the thing.

(01:34:30):
Like they're not asking me what it's like to be
a woman in a band, you know, they don't give
a shit, Like they're just like, we're making art and
we're doing this stuff and we're going to you know,
turn each other on to great art and like do
all that. So it's like I know what's going I
know what's going on in the world. I mean not like,
you know, I'm not a scholar on politics or anything,

(01:34:52):
but like I deeply care about what's going on in
the world and it is really really awful right now
and I can't separate myself from that. But at the
same time time in my day to day, when I
encounter stuff like, you know, really bad sexism, I don't
even understand what's happening anymore. Like I'm just like I
don't even you are you a dinosaur from Jurassic Park?

(01:35:12):
Like I don't know what you're talking about like it's
so confusing when it happens, and I think it's it's
really weird when I've managed to create a tight knit
group of people who like I just we're not sitting
around talking about you know, if we're fuckable, you know
what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:35:28):
Like got it?

Speaker 3 (01:35:30):
It's just like I don't. I just try to live
in my own fantasy land of like what can be possible.
And I know from my groups of friends and from
people that I meet on tour that like that world
is possible. I believe in that world. But right now,
we don't live in a post racial society. We don't
live in a post sexist society. We don't live And

(01:35:50):
that's the thing that's really frustrating that a lot of people,
there's a really big difference from creating something that you
can survive within, like an artistic community that you're thriving
and being challenged and pretending that stuff doesn't exist and
putting your head in the sand, do you know what
I mean? Like, like you have to be able to
kind of traverse between those two different things where you're
like really yourself as an individual and really a part

(01:36:12):
of a community, and the part of you is an
individual feeds a community, and the community feeds the part
of youth that's an individual, as opposed to seeing it
as a either or you know, either I'm a total
hedonistic like you know, Eric Clapton, like jacking off on
the guitar, or I'm strictly a political activist. It's like
those things aren't separate in my life anymore. They used

(01:36:33):
to be, and that caused me a lot of strife.
So anytime that I was enjoying it was like, oh,
somebody's going to And I think it's also psychological. I
felt like somebody's gonna take this away from me, you know,
I think it's fascinating. Like writing the book that I
learned psychological, I was like, you know, it's really funny
is that I grew up in a family like my
dad is like it was like very much a person
who would just when you were right on the top

(01:36:55):
of the mountain, he'd like knock you off, you know
what I mean. It's like, wait till you're like really
in a positive place. And so every time I'm in
a positive place in my life, I'm waiting for to
get knocked off, right, I'm waiting for the rug to
get pulled out from sure, I mean, and I but
I see it now, I see it. I'm like, I'm
I'm starting like something great happens to me, and I'm like, oh,
I'm just waiting for the backlash, which is normal, awesome,

(01:37:16):
or I'm just waiting for the drug to get pulled
out from under me and then but now I can
sit with it and be like, I know where that
comes from. That comes from growing up in this situation.
It comes from I start getting attention and then my
community turns on me. Someone punches me in the face
and threatens me. You know, people are like being like
really weird, and I'm super confused. I'm watching friends die.

(01:37:39):
Like I associated being myself and really being large with
like getting in trouble, and now I'm able to just
do that and be like, you know what, I can't
control other people's behavior. If I'm gonna you know, really
be putting out my art the way I want to
and be doing the things and saying the things that
I want to, and people are going to come after me,
so be it. What am I going to I can't

(01:38:00):
control other people's behavior anymore, So I'm not going to
like shrink myself to avoid the rug getting pulled out
from under me. Go ahead, try to pull the rug
out from under me. I dare you?

Speaker 1 (01:38:13):
I have three questions left. If you mean.

Speaker 3 (01:38:16):
The question, I want to talk to you about music.
I am. We're going to come over to your apartment
and like sit outside and just like sit on your
stupid be like, dude, come back here, talk to me
about Tony DeFranco.

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
I welcome it. If you were given the power to
change one thing from your past, what would you change?

Speaker 3 (01:38:38):
I mean, I should just give you the honest answer instead.

Speaker 1 (01:38:40):
Of like, what's the honest answer?

Speaker 3 (01:38:44):
See, if I think about it, it's going to be
something really deep. But the first thing that comes to
mind is I would have taken more time recording the
Bikini Hill Records, the first two Bikini Hill records, because
the idea was, like, go in and play like it's
a live show. Don't put stuff on your voice, because

(01:39:07):
that's like putting panteos over your hairy legs or something,
you know what I mean? Like like that, I was
like trying to be like so raw that other people
could relate to it. And it's not that I still
don't keep like mistakes when they're cool in stuff that
I put out, but it's like I wish we would
have taken a little more time because performing those songs

(01:39:27):
live and then knowing what they sound like on record,
Like I can't even listen to them because they're just
recorded so poorly, especially this one record that was recorded
on four truck on a tape that somebody else had
used so you could hear the other band in the band.

Speaker 1 (01:39:42):
That's so real to me, man, And.

Speaker 3 (01:39:44):
Like literally we spent seventeen dollars recording this record. It
was a split record with Huggy Bear, and their side
sounds fantastic and our side sounds like shit. And like
if I could go back and redo those because there's
all these great songs a some jigsaw youth I really
loved performing live, and there's not a great recorded version
of it, and so like I can't. I don't want

(01:40:06):
to go back in the studio and record it. Now,
that's weird. I can't, like, you know, change history. And
those records sound the way they sound because of the
time and because of you know, we didn't have any
money and whatever. But I didn't understand yet that the
recording process was a different art than live. I was
all about the live show to the point of like,
let's capture the live show like a snapshot, like you know,

(01:40:29):
Henry Braisson, Like on the street they taking snapshots of
people like I was trying to like get a snapshot.
But then when I'd learned about the art of recording
and I got in got my first four track and
then my first aid track, I was like, oh, this
is a you know, it's the difference between an essay
and a play or you know, it's a different thing.

(01:40:50):
And I wasn't exploiting what I could do with those
songs on the record, and so I would go back.
I wish I had said something really smart about Oh.

Speaker 1 (01:41:03):
That was honest. Yeah, I except that that's.

Speaker 3 (01:41:06):
Really that's something that that that bugs me, like you know,
once a week.

Speaker 2 (01:41:11):
Okay, five non greatest hits, five non box set, five
non live albums.

Speaker 3 (01:41:21):
Oh, I'm so bad at lists because I have like
brain stuff. So I don't know if I can do it.

Speaker 2 (01:41:27):
Don't say that, just say it. See I used to
do the House on fire. You can only say five records,
but it can't be box set, it can't be live,
and it can't be greatest hits. Five albums that are
in your lifetime capsule.

Speaker 3 (01:41:45):
I just say an artist because I can never remember
which album is the one that I really like everything. Okay,
it would probably be Sharda.

Speaker 1 (01:41:55):
I probably, or the blue album Stronger and Pride.

Speaker 3 (01:42:00):
Or the onely Smooth Operator on it.

Speaker 1 (01:42:04):
Her first debut, the first one did they pronounced? Okay,
that's number one.

Speaker 3 (01:42:11):
Yeah. When I was in high school, I was like,
my mom went to see her and I was like,
are you going to see Sade? Say so, yeah, probably
Chardy is somebody who I I just come back to
over and over and over. The other would be yeas
upstairs at Eric's. Yeah as you because they had to

(01:42:35):
change their name because there was another band, so they
were Yazdoo and then they were like, yeahs uk or something.

Speaker 1 (01:42:40):
I got three, So that I'm just trying to.

Speaker 3 (01:42:43):
Think of, Like what I actually listened listen to?

Speaker 2 (01:42:46):
Yes, not the impressive the Impressed US list, What you
actually listened.

Speaker 3 (01:42:51):
To, clinic? What is the name of the album? It's like,
because I have all my stuff on shuffle, so I'm
never sure what that is anymore. The blue album with
the yellow on it.

Speaker 1 (01:43:02):
With distortions on it. Oh, the Blue album.

Speaker 3 (01:43:05):
It's blue and yellow, not.

Speaker 1 (01:43:07):
Fantasy that was titled.

Speaker 3 (01:43:08):
I literally do have like a memory problem.

Speaker 2 (01:43:11):
So Fantasy Island. I've see clinic Fantasy Island. It's blue
and yellow.

Speaker 3 (01:43:17):
But yeah, okay, that's it. I didn't know it's called
fancy Island. I had no idea, Okay, that clinic Fanacy Island.
Five Isaac Cay's Live at the Sierra siarah T.

Speaker 2 (01:43:29):
Yeah, his uh Ain't No Sunshine is a great cover well,
and the.

Speaker 3 (01:43:33):
Whole the I think about the lead in to use
Me all the time, Yeah, because it's that thing of
where you're turning something that is supposedly really negative into
something where he's like, if you're going to use me,
then so be it, right, And I think about that
in like the weirdest times of like when I get
asked to be like the woman on the panel at

(01:43:55):
the last minute, right and I'm getting paid like half
what the men are getting paid, and I'm like, if
you are going to use me, so be it. As
long as I get paid.

Speaker 1 (01:44:05):
Now, that's a classic album. I like it.

Speaker 3 (01:44:07):
So We're at what are Where are we at?

Speaker 1 (01:44:08):
That was five?

Speaker 3 (01:44:09):
Oh God, I could go on forever. But if I
really was on a desert island. I would need Strawberry
Shortcake Live at the Big Apple Disco to keep me laughing.

Speaker 1 (01:44:20):
You lovely Wheredo, you have you?

Speaker 3 (01:44:22):
Have you heard it?

Speaker 1 (01:44:23):
I've not heard it.

Speaker 3 (01:44:25):
I have two copies.

Speaker 1 (01:44:26):
Strawberry Shortcake made a disco record live at the.

Speaker 3 (01:44:29):
Big Apple Disco. There's a song called Strawberry SHORTCAKEE rap
on it. I take this album deadly serious. I saw
a thirteen year old girl acted out in front of
me when I was really high, and it was one
of the best experiences, one of the best after show
experiences I've ever had. And then I just started buying it,
and every time I see it, I buy it. It's

(01:44:52):
so good because like the story she comes from, like
Strawberry Land to New York City and it's her whole story.
And then there's this one song where she's clearly on
PCP on a roof. So I'm just saying I.

Speaker 2 (01:45:04):
Didn't know her entire like catalog is on Spotify, Okay, great.

Speaker 3 (01:45:10):
I trolled her on Instagram. That's the only thing I
do on Instagram is I troll the Strawberry Shortcake account
like they're like it's like her and her Berry friends.
They're like riding a bike and they're like, We're riding
into an empowered future for women, And I was like,
just don't get pregnant in Texas, Strawberry Nice. I'm an
adult who's like trolling a car. I love the idea
of cartoon characters, Like we used to sample a lot

(01:45:31):
of stuff from I'm not going to say who it is,
but from cartoons, uh, in one of my bands, and
I was like, what are they going to do? Sue us?
I would picture the cartoon character showing up in court.
I'd bean like, gonna have deputy dogs going to show
up and sue me.

Speaker 1 (01:45:48):
Oh Trusky.

Speaker 2 (01:45:49):
The cartoons are litigious. Okay, you married the person that
started his career making fun.

Speaker 3 (01:45:58):
Of I knew this was coming.

Speaker 2 (01:46:01):
You married university started his career making fun of a cake. Anyway,
last question of everything that you've achieved, Like, for you,
what is the one thing that you're proudest to celebrate
of what you've done with your life?

Speaker 3 (01:46:20):
I mean today, I'm pretty proud to know that, like
I had an effect on Rich, and then Rich had
an effect on you, Like I would have never in
a million years guessed that like that I had any
kind of effect of that on the roots, Like when
I came to New York outam. One of our most
romantic dates that I'll remember for the rest of my
life was when he took me to see you all
in New York when I first moved there, and like

(01:46:42):
we were like, I mean, I was only thirty, but
we were like old people slow dancing in the back
and it was like, you are so good live and
I was just like it was the best show. And
like to think that stuff I did had any kind
of influence on you, and like I followed your career,

(01:47:03):
like Summer Soul is like a huge movie in my life.
You probably didn't see it, but of course I wrote
you like a huge gushing you know, DM, like just
like oh my god, you know, like that footage I
can watch that a million times is so great. And
to see somebody who's like I hate branding, I hate
the phrase using your platform, I hate all that stuff.
But to see somebody who's able to still be like

(01:47:25):
so vital and creative within this like hustle till you
die world, it's it's really inspirational. So I think inspiring
you at all and having any kind of bit to
do with your creativity is kind of those stories. That
is that And like, you know a girl who told

(01:47:47):
me I helped her get through you know, her pastor
sexually assaulting art and that listening to you know, records
that I was on and reading stuff that I I
said in interviews made her tell our parents parents, and
then her parents were really supportive and then her parents
came to the show with her and they all thanked me.
That was a moment. Wow, you know, having a family,

(01:48:09):
having a mom say thank you for being there for
my daughter. I was there for her as much as
I could, but you were there in this one little
spot that I couldn't reach, And I was like a
family And this isn't you know? This is like more
modern times like in the past few years. I never
you know when when Bikini Kill first started, Like crazy
things happened, like a woman who worked at a juvenile

(01:48:31):
detention center got all the juvie girls to come to
one of our shows for a field trip. Like those
were the kooky things that happened that I was like,
this is amazing. But nowadays to have to see a
family supporting a child who has experienced sexual assault is like,
really gratifying. It makes me feel like the world can
change and can keep changing for the better.

Speaker 1 (01:48:54):
Kathleen, I thank you for this long what would do conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:48:58):
I want to do one where reach just talk about
records and talk about music. So I'm gonna I'm going
to start a podcast and you're gonna be my first time, and.

Speaker 1 (01:49:05):
Then I'll be your first guest. I promise, I promise. No,
thank you for doing this.

Speaker 2 (01:49:10):
Give your regards to Adam, who will be a future
guest on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:49:15):
He has let's to say about em, and I know, I.

Speaker 1 (01:49:19):
Was like, wow, he puts you on the MC sid
from and I.

Speaker 3 (01:49:23):
Had that record and he was like, oh my god,
how do you have this record? And I was like,
because I like the cover. He's so cute on the cover.
But apparently his DJ can eat ten eggs at one sitting,
so you weirdos. I know whatever, We'll hang out some time.
But thank you so much for having me on. It's
joy and I really appreciate it and it's just a

(01:49:45):
fun way to spend a day.

Speaker 1 (01:49:46):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:49:47):
And on Beef of the q S Bam Layah, I'm paid,
Bill and Sugar Steve and shout out to you written Jake,
this Quest Love and we'll see you on the next goroground.
Thank you, Thank you for listening to the Quest Love Supreme.
Hosted by Amir quest Love Thompson, Liah Saint Clair, Sugar,

(01:50:08):
Steve Mandel, and.

Speaker 1 (01:50:09):
Unpaid Bill Sherman.

Speaker 2 (01:50:11):
Executive producers are America Quest Love, Thompson, Sean ch and
Brian Calhoun. Produced by Brittany Benjamin Cousin, Jake Payne and
Liah Saint Clair. Edited by Alex Conway. Produced by iHeart
by Noel Brown.

Speaker 1 (01:50:36):
West Love Supreme is a production of Iheartened Radio. For
more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.